
From nobody Mon Mar  3 01:20:45 2014
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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Jabber scribes, Minute Takers and Slides.
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Hello all,

We are looking for some folk willing to volunteer to be jabber scribes
and minute takers.

Those who are presenting, please get slides to us before Monday midnight.

W


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To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Milestones changed for opsawg WG
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Hi Dan,

I believe it makes sense.

Regards, B.
> Hi,
>
> There are a number of documents already adopted by the OPSAWG as WG documents that do not show up in the milestones. For example the VMM MIB, the *coman*, the *capwap* documents. Should not these also be added in the milestones list?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IETF
>> Secretariat
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:32 PM
>> To: opsawg@ietf.org
>> Subject: [OPSAWG] Milestones changed for opsawg WG
>>
>> Changed milestone "Initial submission for the 'IF-CAP-STACK-MIB MIB
>> module' Internet-Draft", resolved as "Done", added draft-ietf-opsawg-
>> rfc5066bis to milestone.
>>
>> Changed milestone "Submit the 'IF-CAP-STACK-MIB MIB module'
>> Internet-Draft to the IESG for consideration as Proposed Standard", resolved
>> as "Done", added draft-ietf-opsawg-rfc5066bis to milestone.
>>
>> URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/opsawg/charter/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OPSAWG mailing list
>> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>


From nobody Mon Mar  3 07:54:32 2014
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--20cf302d497a372f9704f3b5cd88
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2014-02-28 22:55 GMT+08:00 Tom Taylor <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com>:

>
> On 28/02/2014 5:58 AM, Liu Dapeng wrote:
>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> Thanks for your review.
>>
>>
>> 2014-02-28 5:47 GMT+08:00 Tom Taylor <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com>:
>>
>>  Numerous grammatical and stylistic suggestions that I gave you in my
>>> first
>>> review haven't made it into the revision, so I won't bother with any
>>> more.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I searched the mailing list and can not find your "grammatical and
>> stylistic suggestions" comments. Do you mind to give me a pointer?
>>
>>  [PTT] Sorry, I sent it to you privately as a marked-up .docx on 7 Nov
> 2013. It's only 19 kB, so I suppose I could send it to the list too, or
> just resend it. Alternatively I could work directly on something you send
> me. Let me know


[Dapeng] I am sorry that I just found this mail is in my mailbox's trash
folder. I will incorporate  your changes and submit a new version this week.
              Thanks for the detailed review and corrections.


>>  However, there are still points where the intention isn't clear and the
>>> text needs to be tightened up.
>>>
>>> Section 4.1.2 regarding antenna configuration:
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> I don't understand the explanation of this field. It says each bit
>>> represents the number of antennas corresponding to that bit. Taking that
>>> literally, I could see 1+2+...+8 = a total of 36 antennas being
>>> configured.
>>> Is this what you mean, or do you mean that there are eight antennas, each
>>> bit corresponds to one of them, and the bits determine which of those
>>> eight
>>> antennas are enabled?
>>>
>>>
>> It is the latter case, only eight antennas.
>>
>> How about adding the following sentence for clarification:
>>
>> "Only one bit is allowed to be set to 1."
>>
>
> [PTT] If that is so, why do you need 8 bits and not just 3 (if you number
> the antennas starting from 0)? Are you sure this isn't a matter of
> configuring a specific set of antennas, so that multiple bits can be set?
> For example, 10010000 enables antennas 8 and 5 and disables the rest?
>
>
[Dapeng] Yes, 3 bits could also work. The 8 bits design is better to align
with current existing implementations.

>
>>
>>  Section 5.1 first paragraph:
>>> ----------------------------
>>>
>>> Currently says: "... if those information element is zero ..."
>>> Do you mean that literally (I haven't looked those information elements
>>> up), or do you mean: "... if those information elements are not present
>>> ..."?
>>>
>>>
>> It should be the channel field of those information element. How about the
>> following sentence?
>>
>>   "If the channel field of those information element is set to 0"
>>
>>
>>  Section 5.3 explanation of scanning procedure:
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Do the three parameters that determine scan operation apply to both
>>> passive and active scanning, or just to active scanning? I can get the
>>> answer by looking in Section 5.3.1, but it wouldn't hurt to say it here.
>>>
>>>
>> OK, how about adding a sentence after the first sentence in page 9:
>>
>> There are three parameters that will determine the working mode of
>> scan: PrimeChlSrvTime, On Channel ScanTime, Off Channel ScanTime.  It
>> applies to both active and passive scan.
>>
>>  [PTT] I believe the definitions of the On and Off Channel Scan Time
> parameters say that they apply to active mode only.
>
>>
>>
[Dapeng] Those parameters could apply to both active and passive scan.
Active and passive scan only have difference of whether sending scan probes
or not.

>
>>
>>
>> Section 5.3.1 Scan Parameter message element:
>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The M and S bits are described as having values 1 or 2, but are only one
>>> bit wide. They should be 0 or 1.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes. I will change its values to 0 and 1.
>>
>>
>>  You probably mean to designate that M bit is "WTP oper mode", not "AP
>>> oper
>>> mode".
>>>
>>>
>>>  Yes, I will change the "AP" to "WTP".
>>
>>
>>  You may want to specify what L=0 and D=0 mean.
>>>
>>>
>> I will add the following:
>>
>> L=0: Disable Load Balance Scan.
>> D=0: Disable Rouge WTP detection scan.
>>
>>
>>
>>> 5.3.4. Neighbor WTP Report:
>>> ---------------------------
>>>
>>> You should probably use phrasing similar to that of Section 4.1.1 to
>>> specify transport of the Neighbor Report Element in the 802.11
>>> Information
>>> Element, rather than talking about a new message type.
>>>
>>>
>> OK. How about changing it to the following:
>>
>> This document specifies use of the IEEE 802.11 Information Element (Type
>> 1029) that defined in section 6.6 of RFC5416 and IEEE 802.11 Neighbor
>> Report Element that defined in section 8.4.2.39 of IEEE-802.11.2012 to
>> carry the neighbor WTP report message.
>>
>>  [PTT] The point is that there is no such thing as the neighbour WTP
> report message. The sentence should be:
>
> "This document specifies use of the IEEE 802.11 Information Element (Type
> 1029) defined in section 6.6 of RFC5416 to carry the IEEE 802.11 Neighbor
> Report Element defined in section 8.4.2.39 of [IEEE-802.11.2012], possibly
> along with other IEEE 802.11 elements."
>
> [Dapeng] OK, will be incorporated in the new version and re-submit again
within this week.


Thanks again for the kind review and help.

Cheers,
Dapeng Liu


>
>> Cheers,
>> Dapeng Liu
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>> OPSAWG mailing list
>>> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>


-- 

------
Best Regards,
Dapeng Liu

--20cf302d497a372f9704f3b5cd88
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">2014-02-28 22:55 GMT+08:00 Tom Taylor <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tom.taylor.stds@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><br>
On 28/02/2014 5:58 AM, Liu Dapeng wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Tom,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your review.<br>
<br>
<br>
2014-02-28 5:47 GMT+08:00 Tom Taylor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tom.taylor.stds@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Numerous grammatical and stylistic suggestions that I gave you in my first<=
br>
review haven&#39;t made it into the revision, so I won&#39;t bother with an=
y more.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
I searched the mailing list and can not find your &quot;grammatical and<br>
stylistic suggestions&quot; comments. Do you mind to give me a pointer?<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
[PTT] Sorry, I sent it to you privately as a marked-up .docx on 7 Nov 2013.=
 It&#39;s only 19 kB, so I suppose I could send it to the list too, or just=
 resend it. Alternatively I could work directly on something you send me. L=
et me know</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div style>[Dapeng] I am sorry that I just found this mail i=
s in my mailbox&#39;s trash folder. I will incorporate =A0your changes and =
submit a new version this week.<br></div><div style>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0 Thanks for the detailed review and corrections.</div>
<div style><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
However, there are still points where the intention isn&#39;t clear and the=
<br>
text needs to be tightened up.<br>
<br>
Section 4.1.2 regarding antenna configuration:<br>
------------------------------<u></u>----------------<br>
I don&#39;t understand the explanation of this field. It says each bit<br>
represents the number of antennas corresponding to that bit. Taking that<br=
>
literally, I could see 1+2+...+8 =3D a total of 36 antennas being configure=
d.<br>
Is this what you mean, or do you mean that there are eight antennas, each<b=
r>
bit corresponds to one of them, and the bits determine which of those eight=
<br>
antennas are enabled?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
It is the latter case, only eight antennas.<br>
<br>
How about adding the following sentence for clarification:<br>
<br>
&quot;Only one bit is allowed to be set to 1.&quot;<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
[PTT] If that is so, why do you need 8 bits and not just 3 (if you number t=
he antennas starting from 0)? Are you sure this isn&#39;t a matter of confi=
guring a specific set of antennas, so that multiple bits can be set? For ex=
ample, 10010000 enables antennas 8 and 5 and disables the rest?<div class=
=3D"">
<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>[Dapeng] Yes, 3 bits could=
 also work. The 8 bits design is better to align with current existing impl=
ementations.=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Section 5.1 first paragraph:<br>
----------------------------<br>
<br>
Currently says: &quot;... if those information element is zero ...&quot;<br=
>
Do you mean that literally (I haven&#39;t looked those information elements=
<br>
up), or do you mean: &quot;... if those information elements are not presen=
t<br>
...&quot;?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
It should be the channel field of those information element. How about the<=
br>
following sentence?<br>
<br>
=A0 &quot;If the channel field of those information element is set to 0&quo=
t;<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Section 5.3 explanation of scanning procedure:<br>
------------------------------<u></u>----------------<br>
<br>
Do the three parameters that determine scan operation apply to both<br>
passive and active scanning, or just to active scanning? I can get the<br>
answer by looking in Section 5.3.1, but it wouldn&#39;t hurt to say it here=
.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
OK, how about adding a sentence after the first sentence in page 9:<br>
<br>
There are three parameters that will determine the working mode of<br>
scan: PrimeChlSrvTime, On Channel ScanTime, Off Channel ScanTime. =A0It<br>
applies to both active and passive scan.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
[PTT] I believe the definitions of the On and Off Channel Scan Time paramet=
ers say that they apply to active mode only.<div class=3D""><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">
<br></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>[Dapeng] Thos=
e parameters could apply to both active and passive scan. Active and passiv=
e scan only have difference of whether sending scan probes or not. =A0</div=
>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
<br>
<br>
<br>
Section 5.3.1 Scan Parameter message element:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
------------------------------<u></u>---------------<br>
<br>
The M and S bits are described as having values 1 or 2, but are only one<br=
>
bit wide. They should be 0 or 1.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
Yes. I will change its values to 0 and 1.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
You probably mean to designate that M bit is &quot;WTP oper mode&quot;, not=
 &quot;AP oper<br>
mode&quot;.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, I will change the &quot;AP&quot; to &quot;WTP&quot;.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
You may want to specify what L=3D0 and D=3D0 mean.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I will add the following:<br>
<br>
L=3D0: Disable Load Balance Scan.<br>
D=3D0: Disable Rouge WTP detection scan.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
5.3.4. Neighbor WTP Report:<br>
---------------------------<br>
<br>
You should probably use phrasing similar to that of Section 4.1.1 to<br>
specify transport of the Neighbor Report Element in the 802.11 Information<=
br>
Element, rather than talking about a new message type.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
OK. How about changing it to the following:<br>
<br>
This document specifies use of the IEEE 802.11 Information Element (Type<br=
>
1029) that defined in section 6.6 of RFC5416 and IEEE 802.11 Neighbor<br>
Report Element that defined in section 8.4.2.39 of IEEE-802.11.2012 to<br>
carry the neighbor WTP report message.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
[PTT] The point is that there is no such thing as the neighbour WTP report =
message. The sentence should be:<br>
<br>
&quot;This document specifies use of the IEEE 802.11 Information Element (T=
ype 1029) defined in section 6.6 of RFC5416 to carry the IEEE 802.11 Neighb=
or Report Element defined in section 8.4.2.39 of [IEEE-802.11.2012], possib=
ly along with other IEEE 802.11 elements.&quot;<div class=3D"HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"h5"><br></div></div></blockquote><div style>[Dapeng] OK, will=
 be incorporated in the new version and re-submit again within this week.</=
div><div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div style>Thanks again for t=
he kind review and help.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Cheers,</div><div style>Dapeng Liu</div><di=
v style>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Dapeng Liu<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
OPSAWG mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:OPSAWG@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">OPSAWG@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/opsawg</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<br>------<br>Best Regards,<br>Dapeng Liu
</div></div>

--20cf302d497a372f9704f3b5cd88--


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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:53:29 +0000
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From: Hui Deng <denghui02@gmail.com>
To: "Rajesh Pazhyannur (rpazhyan)" <rpazhyan@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Alternate Tunnel Encapsulation for Data Frames in CAPWAP
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--20cf3071cfd2c164f204f3c409e5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hello all


As some of you may know we (China Mobile) have been trying to progress a
CAPWAP related draft (this draft),  it advocates separating the control and
data plane of a CAPWAP AP.


In the past two IETF meetings, there have been questions about the need for
this. These question have been mainly centered around why the existing
CAPWAP capability is inadequate or other tunneling protocols cannot be
used. I am posting this email to reinforce our need for this work.



1)      As the attached link shows, the traffic to/from Wi-Fi in our
network is very large and growing rapidly. This is the driving factor to
consider separating the data traffic from the AC as we believe it leads to
scalable architecture than the current one.

2)      As an operator we need to tunnel the traffic from the AP to our NoC
for regulatory reasons.  So locally switching the traffic from the AP is
not an option.

3)      As an operator, we have chosen CAPWAP which is invented by IETF as
the protocol to create interoperable SP Wi-Fi systems.



I hope this will address some of the concerns raised.



Thanks



Regards


-Hui


2014-02-18 22:10 GMT+00:00 Rajesh Pazhyannur (rpazhyan) <rpazhyan@cisco.com>
:

>  Hello
>
> We have a submitted a new version of Alternate Tunnel Encapsulation for
> Data Frames in CAPWAP,
> *http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-opsawg-capwap-cds/*<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-opsawg-capwap-cds/>.
>
>
> Abstract
>
>    In centralized IEEE 802.11 Wireless Local Area Network (WLAN)
>    architecture, the Access Controller (AC) isn't intelligent enough
>    actually to aggregate all the wireless frames, even the bandwidth
>    requirement in the access point is increasing.  Thus it is a general
>    case in the existing operator's network that WTPs forward the
>    wireless frames directly to Access Router (AR) to avoid overload on
>    the AC.  In this scenario, CAPWAP Control Channel and CAPWAP Data
>    Channel are separated from each other.  This document extends CAPWAP
>    for applicability of CAPWAP Control and Data Channel separation.
>
>
> We received some questions and suggestions from Dan Romascanu and John
> Kaippallimalil on the mailing list on the previous draft. We have attempted
> to address them in this draft. Specifically,
>
>    1. How does this draft address signaling, discovery mechanisms related
>    to setting up alternate tunnel. (ans. Tunneling protocols like L2TPv3,
>    IP/GRE (PMIPv6) already have a signaling mechanism. This draft focuses on
>    specifying the tunnel type and provides a container to hold message
>    elements)
>    2. Need for alternate tunnel encapsulation (given the existence of
>    defined mode with local bridging)
>
>
> We would like to get it adopted as a working group item and would like
> feedback on whether we are on track.
>
>
> thanks
>
> Regards
>
> Rajesh
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>
>

--20cf3071cfd2c164f204f3c409e5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-ser=
if;font-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hello all</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,7=
3,125)"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">As some of you may know we (China Mobile) =
have been trying to progress a CAPWAP related draft (this draft),=A0</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">=A0it</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
color:rgb(31,73,125)">=A0advocates separating the control and data plane of=
 a CAPWAP AP.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,7=
3,125)">In the past two IETF meetings, there have been questions about the =
need for this. These question have been mainly centered around why the exis=
ting CAPWAP capability is inadequate or other tunneling protocols cannot be=
 used. I am posting this email to reinforce our need for this work.</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">=A0</span></p><p style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:=
14px"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rg=
b(31,73,125)">1)<span style=3D"font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Rom=
an&#39;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">As the attached link shows=
, the traffic to/from Wi-Fi in our network is very large and growing rapidl=
y. This is the driving factor to consider separating the data traffic from =
the AC as we believe it leads to scalable architecture than the current one=
.</span></p>
<p style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">2)<span st=
yle=3D"font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">As an operator we need to tunnel the traffic from =
the AP to our NoC for regulatory reasons.=A0 So locally switching the traff=
ic from the AP is not an option.</span></p>
<p style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">3)<span st=
yle=3D"font-size:7pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(31,73,125)">As an operator, we have chosen CAPWAP which is inv=
ented by IETF as the protocol to create interoperable SP Wi-Fi systems.</sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,s=
ans-serif;font-size:14px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,7=
3,125)">I hope this will address some of the concerns raised.</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73=
,125)">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">Thanks</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,7=
3,125)">=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,san=
s-serif;font-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,7=
3,125)">-Hui</span></p></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">2014-02-18 22:10 GMT+00:00 Rajesh Pazhyannur (rpazhyan) <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rpazhyan@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>rpazhyan@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">






<div>
<font face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">
<div>Hello </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>We have a submitted a new version of <span style=3D"background-color:#=
edf5ff">Alternate Tunnel Encapsulation for Data Frames in CAPW</span><span =
style=3D"background-color:#edf5ff">A</span><span style=3D"background-color:=
#edf5ff">P,</span><span style=3D"background-color:#edf5ff">
</span> <a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-opsawg-capwa=
p-cds/" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-zhang-opsawg-capwap-cds/</u></font></a>. </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">A=
bstract</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 In centralized IEEE 802.11 Wireless Local Area Network (WLAN)</span>=
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 architecture, the Access Controller (AC) isn&#39;t intelligent enoug=
h</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 actually to aggregate all the wireless frames, even the bandwidth</s=
pan></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 requirement in the access point is increasing.=A0 Thus it is a gener=
al</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 case in the existing operator&#39;s network that WTPs forward the</s=
pan></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 wireless frames directly to Access Router (AR) to avoid overload on<=
/span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 the AC.=A0 In this scenario, CAPWAP Control Channel and CAPWAP Data<=
/span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 Channel are separated from each other.=A0 This document extends CAPW=
AP</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=A0=A0 for applicability of CAPWAP Control and Data Channel separation.</sp=
an></font></div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>We received some questions and suggestions from Dan Romascanu and John=
 Kaippallimalil on the mailing list on the previous draft.  We have attempt=
ed to address them in this draft. Specifically, </div>
<ol style=3D"margin:0;padding-left:36pt">
<li>How does this draft address signaling, discovery mechanisms related to =
setting up alternate tunnel. (ans. Tunneling protocols like L2TPv3, IP/GRE =
(PMIPv6) already have a signaling mechanism. This draft focuses on specifyi=
ng the tunnel type and provides
a container to hold message elements)</li><li>Need for alternate tunnel enc=
apsulation (given the existence of defined mode with local bridging)</li></=
ol>
<div style=3D"padding-left:36pt">=A0</div>
<div>We would like to get it adopted as a working group item and would like=
 feedback on whether we are on track. </div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>thanks</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Regards</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Rajesh</div>
<div>=A0</div>
</font></span></span></font>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
OPSAWG mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:OPSAWG@ietf.org">OPSAWG@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--20cf3071cfd2c164f204f3c409e5--


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Subject: [OPSAWG] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-extension-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : CAPWAP Extension for 802.11n and Power/channel Autoconfiguration
        Authors         : Yifan Chen
                          Dapeng Liu
                          Hui Deng
                          Lei Zhu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-extension-03.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2014-03-04

Abstract:
   The CAPWAP binding for 802.11 is specified by RFC5416 and it was
   based on IEEE 802-11.2007 standard.  Several new amendments of 802.11
   have been published since RFC5416 was published in 2009.  802.11n is
   one of those amendments and it has been widely used in real
   deployment.  This document extends the CAPWAP binding for 802.11 to
   support 802.11n and also defines a power and channel auto
   configuration extension.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-extension/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-extension-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-extension-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-probstate-reqs-01
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--bcaec520f6893ac92d04f3c56de1
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--bcaec520f6893ac92904f3c56ddf
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Hello,

I just joined the mailing list, so I apologize if I have missed some
previous reviews of the draft in the subject.

I think the draft is quite interesting and that the COMAN topic is relevant
for the IETF. I have been previously assisting in drafting some text for
the two COMAN drafts from Mehmet, and I am glad to see that the OPSAWG is
interested.

See the attachment for my review (or should I copy & paste it into the
email?). Overall, I think the draft needs some more work, but is
interesting to read and provides a lot of insight into management of
constrained devices.

Best regards
Ulrich

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hello,<br><br></div>I just joined=
 the mailing list, so I apologize if I have missed some previous reviews of=
 the draft in the subject.<br><br></div>I think the draft is quite interest=
ing and that the COMAN topic is relevant for the IETF. I have been previous=
ly assisting in drafting some text for the two COMAN drafts from Mehmet, an=
d I am glad to see that the OPSAWG is interested.<br>
<br></div>See the attachment for my review (or should I copy &amp; paste it=
 into the email?). Overall, I think the draft needs some more work, but is =
interesting to read and provides a lot of insight into management of constr=
ained devices.<br>
<br></div>Best regards<br></div>Ulrich<br></div>

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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:56:36 +0000
Message-ID: <CAK=bVC-1CbedoywLhvenHUFVgVYQixKroggv5bmy1EMObD704Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
To: opsawg@ietf.org
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Review of draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-use-cases-01
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Hello,

I have reviewed the draft in the subject (see attachment). It is
interesting to read and provides insights into management of constrained
devices. Again, I am glad to see that the COMAN work has found a home in
OPSAWG.

I believe the draft needs some more work. I understand that the different
sections have been written by different contributors, and each of them is
very interesting to read. However, the draft would benefit from having the
editors unify the description of management properties and challenges. Each
use case picks a few different properties for management of the use case
(e.g., acceptable delay, privacy etc). Maybe it would be beneficial to
agree on a list of properties that each of the use cases must discuss.
Also, it would be helpful for each use case to understand why we can't just
use SMTP/Netconf.
Use cases 3.8 and 3.9 seem redundant.

Best regards
Ulrich

--001a1133ec969ef07604f3c69890
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hello,<br><br></div>I have reviewed the dra=
ft in the subject (see attachment). It is interesting to read and provides =
insights into management of constrained devices. Again, I am glad to see th=
at the COMAN work has found a home in OPSAWG.<br>
<br></div>I believe the draft needs some more work. I understand that the d=
ifferent sections have been written by different contributors, and each of =
them is very interesting to read. However, the draft would benefit from hav=
ing the editors unify the description of management properties and challeng=
es. Each use case picks a few different properties for management of the us=
e case (e.g., acceptable delay, privacy etc). Maybe it would be beneficial =
to agree on a list of properties that each of the use cases must discuss. A=
lso, it would be helpful for each use case to understand why we can&#39;t j=
ust use SMTP/Netconf.<br>
</div><div>Use cases 3.8 and 3.9 seem redundant.<br></div><div><br></div>Be=
st regards<br>Ulrich<br></div>

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--001a1133ec969ef07a04f3c69892
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-use-cases-01.txt"
Content-Disposition: attachment; 
	filename="draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-use-cases-01.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Attachment-Id: f_hsd4e40n0

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From nobody Wed Mar  5 01:01:32 2014
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Subject: [OPSAWG] EAP authentication in YANG
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Hi,

FWIW, here is the data model for EAP auth configuration in YANG:

=
https://gitlab.labs.nic.cz/labs/yang-tools/blob/master/data-models/eap-met=
adata/ietf-eap-metadata.yang

I wrote it based on the XML Schema from =
draft-winter-opsawg-eap-metadata-00.

The second YANG module, acme-eap.yang, is an example of how the basic =
model can be augmented with vendor specific extensions:

=
https://gitlab.labs.nic.cz/labs/yang-tools/blob/master/data-models/eap-met=
adata/acme-eap.yang

Note that, in contrast to the XML schema, the original data model =
needn=92t take any provisions in order to make vendor extensions =
possible.

Lada

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C





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Hi Anoop,

Please post a new draft version, and I'll review the diffs.
Some more answers in-line.

Regards, Benoit
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
> Thanks for the detailed and careful review.  Comments inline.
>
> Anoop
>
> ====
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com 
> <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear authors,
>
>     Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-opsawg-large-flow-load-balancing
>
>     - Section 1:
>         Networks extensively use link aggregation groups (LAG) [802.1AX] and
>         equal cost multi-paths (ECMP) [RFC 2991] as techniques for capacity
>         scaling. For the problems addressed by this document, network traffic
>         can be predominantly categorized into two traffic types: long-lived
>         large flows and other flows.
>
>         ...
>
>         This draft describes mechanisms for optimal LAG/ECMP component link
>         utilization while using hash-based techniques. The mechanisms
>         comprise the following steps -- recognizing_large flows_  in a router;
>         and assigning the large flows to specific LAG/ECMP component links or
>         redistributing the small flows when a component link on the router is
>         congested.
>
>         It is useful to keep in mind that in typical use cases for this
>         mechanism the_large flows_  are those that consume a significant amount
>         of bandwidth on a link, e.g. greater than 5% of link bandwidth.  The
>         number of such flows would necessarily be fairly small, e.g. on the
>         order of 10's or 100's per LAG/ECMP.  In other words, the number of
>        _  large flows_  is NOT expected to be on the order of millions of flows.
>         Examples of such large flows would be IPsec tunnels in service
>         provider backbone networks or storage backup traffic in data center
>         networks.
>
>     3 instances of "large flows": do you mean "long-lived large flows"?
>     If not, why do you make a distinction between long-lived large
>     flows and other flows in the first paragraph?
>     I eventually understood the source of confusion when I read the
>     terminology section:
>         Large flow(s): long-lived large flow(s)
>
>     Either use capitalized term in the Intro section (actually
>     throughout the doc.) so that we understand that the term is
>     defined somewhere, or make it clear in the intro that large
>     flow(s) = long-lived large flow(s)
>
>
> Yes, they are all referring to long-lived large flows.  We will change 
> the early part of Section 1 to clarify that long-lived large flows 
> are, thereafter in the document, referred to as large flows.
Or replace large flow by long-lived flow were it makes sense in the draft.
>
>     -
>
>         This document presents improved load distribution techniques based on
>         the large flow awareness.
>
>     Improved compared to?
>
>
> Improved compared to static hash-based distribution techniques that do 
> not account for the bandwidth of the flows.  Will reword as follows:
>
> "This document presents mechanisms for improving the load distribution 
> problem resulting from stateless hashing as seen in the above example."
ok
>
>     -
>     In several places, starting with the title and abstract, you speak
>     about mechanisms (plural).
>     However, looking at section 4.2, it seems that you propose a
>     single mechanism? Or maybe you consider 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 as different
>     mechanisms?
>
>
> The title of 4.2 is perhaps misleading and should just be "Operational 
> Overview."
ok
>  Otherwise the rest of the draft discusses several mechanisms 
> (multiple choices for large flow identification, and multiple choices 
> for rebalancing).
>
>     -
>
>     Step 3) On receiving the alert about the congested component link,
>         the operator, through a central management entity, finds the large
>         flows mapped to that component link and the LAG/ECMP group to which
>         the component link belongs.
>
>         Step 4) The operator can choose to rebalance the large flows on
>         lightly loaded component links of the LAG/ECMP group or redistribute
>         the small flows on the congested link to other component links of the
>         group. The operator, through a central management entity, can choose
>         one of the following actions:
>
>            1) Indicate specific large flows to rebalance;
>
>            2) Have the router decide the best large flows to rebalance;
>
>            3) Have the router redistribute all the small flows on the
>         congested link to other component links in the group.
>
>     "Indicate specific large flows to rebalance", "through a central
>     management entity", what you describe is basically traffic
>     engineering.
>     Other the other hand, for 2) and 3), why do you need a central
>     management entity?
>
>
> The assumption was that the router is controlled by a central 
> management entity for the purpose of this function, but that is 
> clearly not a requirement.  The text will be modified to mention that 
> a central management entity may be used (i.e. not required).
Ok.
>
>     -
>
>         A number of routers support sampling techniques such as sFlow [sFlow-
>         v5, sFlow-LAG], PSAMP [RFC 5475] and NetFlow Sampling [RFC 3954].
>         For the purpose of large flow identification, sampling must be
>         enabled on all of the egress ports in the router where such
>         measurements are desired.
>
>     I don't understand the second sentence.
>     One way to read this is:  sampling must be _enabled _on all of the
>     egress ports where such measurements are desired.
>         Ok, this is an obvious statement. If the measurements are
>     desired, enable them
>
>
> Yes,
ok please clarify the text.
>
>     Or maybe you want to say: _sampling _must be enabled on all of the
>     egress ports where such measurements are desired.
>         This is a false statement: if you have the choice between
>     sampling and non sampling, use non sampling measurements.
>     Or maybe you want to say: sampling must be enabled on _all _of the
>     egress ports where such measurements are desired.
>         This is a false statement: if I have ECMP on 2 links, and only
>     one of them can't do non sampling, then we should not force
>         sampling on both links.
>     You see, I'm confused.
>
>     You miss a couple of key messages:
>     - if unsampled measurements are available, use those.
>     - egress means where LAG/ECMP are enabled (this is important for
>     the paragraph starting with "If egress sampling is not available,
>     ingress sampling can suffice since the central management entity use")
>
>
> We were not intending to discuss a mix sampling and non-sampling 
> interfaces in the same router, but this is a reasonable point and it 
> will be clarified (i.e. we will state that it's possible to mix 
> sampled and non sampled interfaces as long as the function of large 
> flow detection/identification can be performed).
>
>
>     -
>
>         If egress sampling is not available, ingress sampling can suffice
>         since the central management entity used by the sampling technique
>         typically has multi-node visibility and can use the samples from an
>         immediately downstream node to make measurements for egress traffic
>         at the local node.
>
>     It's not clear if "ingress" means the ingress interface of the
>     router itself, or the ingress interface of the downstream router.
>     A drawing is required.
>     Both options are possible:
>         1. ingress interfaces on the router where LAG/ECMP is initiated
>             flow monitoring must be enabled on all ingress interfaces
>             flow monitoring must have a way to know the egress interfaces
>     2. ingress interfaces of the downstream router
>             only work for LAG or ECMP single hop
>             ingress interfaces = all components from LAG/ECMP
>     (multiple ifIndex, typically)
>
>
> What we meant here was that ingress sampling would have to be enable 
> on the downstream device (hence the central management entity must 
> come into play to identify large flows).
I still believe that a drawing would clarify things.
>
>
>     this entire section 4.3.3 needs some improvements
>
>
>     -
>     On one side, you wrote "Specific algorithms for placement of large
>     flows are out of scope of this document.". On the other side, "The
>     following parameters are required the configuration of _this_
>     feature". It seems contradictory.
>     It's unclear why you need the following parameter:
>
>           .  Imbalance threshold: the difference between the utilization of
>              the least utilized and most utilized component links.  Expressed
>              as a percentage of link speed.
>
>     Also, does ECMP/LAG always require equivalent link speed for their components?
>
> The imbalance threshold is a measure of how much imbalance one is 
> willing to tolerate before taking the hit of potential packet 
> reordering in some flows.  Will clarify.
>
> Thanks for catching the issue with link speed.  While in most cases 
> speeds are consistent, there may be the case of composite links which 
> combine links of different speeds (actually permitted by 802.1AX), so 
> we will provide a generalized formula for the imbalance threshold 
> which takes into account the individual speeds of each of the 
> component links.
>
>       
>     -
>     5.2. System Configuration and Identification Parameters
>
>           .  IP address: The IP address of a specific router that the
>              feature is being configured on, or that the large flow placement
>              is being applied to.
>
>           .  LAG ID: Identifies the LAG. The LAG ID may be required when
>              configuring this feature (to apply a specific set of large flow
>              identification parameters to the LAG) and will be required when
>              specifying flow placement to achieve the desired rebalancing.
>
>           .  Component Link ID: Identifies the component link within a LAG.
>              This is required when specifying flow placement to achieve the
>              desired rebalancing.
>
>     Nothing regarding ECMP?
>
>
> Initially we were more focused on getting this done for LAG, but then 
> we completely overlooked ECMP.  5.2, 5.3, and 5.4 would probably 
> benefit from a bit of clean-up as follows:
>
> Add the following to 5.2:
>
> ECMP group: Identifies a particular ECMP group.
>
> ECMP nexthop: Identifies a particular nexthop within an ECMP group.
>
> Add the following line to the end of section 5.3.
>
> When using ECMP, the nexthop within an ECMP group is used to identify 
> the component link for placing the large flow.
>
> Add the following to the end of Section 5.4.
>
> When using ECMP, the ECMP group and the corresponding Nexthops along 
> with the percentage of traffic to be assigned to each Nexthop is 
> required.  Finally it is also possible that an ECMP Nexthop itself 
> comprises a LAG in which case both the Nexthop and the LAG Component 
> ID would need to be specified, and the weights of both the Nexthop's 
> within the ECMP Group and the Component Links within the LAG would 
> need to be adjusted.
Ok.

Regards, Benoit
>
>
>     -
>
>         For high speed links, the etherStatsHighCapacityTable MIB [RFC 3273]
>         can be used.
>
>     Well, only for ethernet.
>
> Will clarify that.
>
>
>
>
>     EDITORIAL:
>     -
>     figure 2
>
>     OLD:
>
>                        +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>                        |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |  (R1)    | ->     |   (R2)  |
>
>     NEW:
>
>                        +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>                        |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |  (R1)     | ->     |   (R2)    |
>
>
>
> Will fix.
>
>
>     -  The indentation in section 2 is not correct
>
>
> Will fix.
>
>
>     - "For tunneling protocols like GRE, VXLAN, NVGRE, STT, etc.,"
>     You need to expand and provide references.
>
> Will provide references.  What do mean by expand -- just expand the 
> acronyms (already in the acronym section) or something else?
>
>     - a PBR rule
>     Expand.
>
> OK
>
>     -
>     OLD:
>
>                        +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>                        |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>                        |           |        |           |
>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |  (R1)    | ->     |   (R2)  |
>                        |        (2)|--------|(2)        |
>
>     NEW:
>                        +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>                        |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>                        |           |        |           |
>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |           | ->     |           |
>                        |  (R1)     | ->     |   (R2)    |
>                        |        (2)|--------|(2)        |
>
> Will fix.
>
>     -
>     OLD:
>     The IPFIX information model [RFC 7011]
>     NEW:
>     The IPFIX information model [RFC 7012]
>
> Will fix.
>
>     Regards, Benoit
>
>
>
>
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Anoop,<br>
      <br>
      Please post a new draft version, and I'll review the diffs.<br>
      Some more answers in-line.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Hi Benoit,<br>
                          </div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Thanks for the detailed and careful
                            review. &nbsp;Comments inline.</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>Anoop</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>====</div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra">
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <div>
                          <div class="h5">
                            <div>
                              <div>On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 7:55 AM,
                                Benoit Claise <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                                    target="_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                wrote:<br>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <pre>Dear authors,

Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-opsawg-large-flow-load-balancing

- Section 1:
   Networks extensively use link aggregation groups (LAG) [802.1AX] and
   equal cost multi-paths (ECMP) [RFC 2991] as techniques for capacity
   scaling. For the problems addressed by this document, network traffic
   can be predominantly categorized into two traffic types: long-lived
   large flows and other flows. 

   ...

   This draft describes mechanisms for optimal LAG/ECMP component link
   utilization while using hash-based techniques. The mechanisms
   comprise the following steps -- recognizing <u>large flows</u> in a router;
   and assigning the large flows to specific LAG/ECMP component links or
   redistributing the small flows when a component link on the router is
   congested.

   It is useful to keep in mind that in typical use cases for this
   mechanism the <u>large flows</u> are those that consume a significant amount
   of bandwidth on a link, e.g. greater than 5% of link bandwidth.  The
   number of such flows would necessarily be fairly small, e.g. on the
   order of 10's or 100's per LAG/ECMP.  In other words, the number of
  <u> large flows</u> is NOT expected to be on the order of millions of flows.
   Examples of such large flows would be IPsec tunnels in service
   provider backbone networks or storage backup traffic in data center
   networks.

</pre>
                                    3 instances of "large flows": do you
                                    mean "long-lived large flows"?<br>
                                    If not, why do you make a
                                    distinction between long-lived large
                                    flows and other flows in the first
                                    paragraph?<br>
                                    I eventually understood the source
                                    of confusion when I read the
                                    terminology section:<br>
                                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Large flow(s): long-lived large
                                    flow(s)<br>
                                    <br>
                                    Either use capitalized term in the
                                    Intro section (actually throughout
                                    the doc.) so that we understand that
                                    the term is defined somewhere, or
                                    make it clear in the intro that
                                    large flow(s) = long-lived large
                                    flow(s)<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Yes, they are all referring to
                                  long-lived large flows. &nbsp;We will
                                  change the early part of Section 1 to
                                  clarify that long-lived large flows
                                  are, thereafter in the document,
                                  referred to as large flows.</div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Or replace large flow by long-lived flow were it makes sense in the
    draft.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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                        <div>
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                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
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                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    -<br>
                                    <pre>   This document presents improved load distribution techniques based on
   the large flow awareness. </pre>
                                    Improved compared to?<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Improved compared to static
                                  hash-based distribution techniques
                                  that do not account for the bandwidth
                                  of the flows. &nbsp;Will reword as follows:</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                "This document presents mechanisms for
                                improving the load distribution problem
                                resulting from stateless hashing as seen
                                in the above example."</div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    ok<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    -<br>
                                    In several places, starting with the
                                    title and abstract, you speak about
                                    mechanisms (plural).<br>
                                    However, looking at section 4.2, it
                                    seems that you propose a single
                                    mechanism? Or maybe you consider
                                    4.1, 4.2, 4.3 as different
                                    mechanisms?<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>The title of 4.2 is perhaps misleading
                              and should just be "Operational Overview."
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    ok<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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                            <div>&nbsp;Otherwise the rest of the draft
                              discusses several mechanisms (multiple
                              choices for large flow identification, and
                              multiple choices for rebalancing).</div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div class="h5">
                              <div>&nbsp;</div>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> -<br>
                                  <pre>Step 3) On receiving the alert about the congested component link,
   the operator, through a central management entity, finds the large
   flows mapped to that component link and the LAG/ECMP group to which
   the component link belongs.

   Step 4) The operator can choose to rebalance the large flows on
   lightly loaded component links of the LAG/ECMP group or redistribute
   the small flows on the congested link to other component links of the
   group. The operator, through a central management entity, can choose
   one of the following actions:

      1) Indicate specific large flows to rebalance;

      2) Have the router decide the best large flows to rebalance;

      3) Have the router redistribute all the small flows on the
   congested link to other component links in the group.

</pre>
                                  "Indicate specific large flows to
                                  rebalance", "through a central
                                  management entity", what you describe
                                  is basically traffic engineering. <br>
                                  Other the other hand, for 2) and 3),
                                  why do you need a central management
                                  entity?<br>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>The assumption was that the router is
                            controlled by a central management entity
                            for the purpose of this function, but that
                            is clearly not a requirement. &nbsp;The text will
                            be modified to mention that a central
                            management entity may be used (i.e. not
                            required).</div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Ok.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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                        <div>
                          <div>&nbsp;</div>
                        </div>
                        <div class="">
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                            style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> -
                              <div><br>
                                <pre>   A number of routers support sampling techniques such as sFlow [sFlow-
   v5, sFlow-LAG], PSAMP [RFC 5475] and NetFlow Sampling [RFC 3954].
   For the purpose of large flow identification, sampling must be
   enabled on all of the egress ports in the router where such
   measurements are desired.</pre>
                                I don't understand the second sentence.<br>
                                One way to read this is:&nbsp; sampling must
                                be <u> enabled </u>on all of the
                                egress ports where such measurements are
                                desired. <br>
                                &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, this is an obvious statement. If
                                the measurements are desired, enable
                                them<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Yes,</div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    ok please clarify the text.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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                        <div class="">
                          <div>
                            <div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
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                              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Or
                                maybe you want to say: <u>sampling </u>must
                                be enabled on all of the egress ports
                                where such measurements are desired. <br>
                                &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is a false statement: if you
                                have the choice between sampling and non
                                sampling, use non sampling measurements.<br>
                                Or maybe you want to say: sampling must
                                be enabled on <u>all </u>of the egress
                                ports where such measurements are
                                desired. <br>
                                &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is a false statement: if I have
                                ECMP on 2 links, and only one of them
                                can't do non sampling, then we should
                                not force<br>
                                &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sampling on both links.<br>
                                You see, I'm confused.<br>
                                <br>
                                You miss a couple of key messages:<br>
                                - if unsampled measurements are
                                available, use those.<br>
                                - egress means where LAG/ECMP are
                                enabled (this is important for the
                                paragraph starting with "If egress
                                sampling is not available, ingress
                                sampling can suffice since the central
                                management entity use")<br>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>We were not intending to discuss a mix
                          sampling and non-sampling interfaces in the
                          same router, but this is a reasonable point
                          and it will be clarified (i.e. we will state
                          that it's possible to mix sampled and non
                          sampled interfaces as long as the function of
                          large flow detection/identification can be
                          performed).</div>
                        <div>
                          <div class="h5">
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>
                                    -<br>
                                    <pre>   If egress sampling is not available, ingress sampling can suffice
   since the central management entity used by the sampling technique
   typically has multi-node visibility and can use the samples from an
   immediately downstream node to make measurements for egress traffic
   at the local node.  

</pre>
                                    It's not clear if "ingress" means
                                    the ingress interface of the router
                                    itself, or the ingress interface of
                                    the downstream router.<br>
                                    A drawing is required.<br>
                                    Both options are possible:<br>
                                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1. ingress interfaces on the
                                    router where LAG/ECMP is initiated<br>
                                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; flow monitoring must be
                                    enabled on all ingress interfaces<br>
                                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; flow monitoring must have a
                                    way to know the egress interfaces<br>
                                    2. ingress interfaces of the
                                    downstream router<br>
                                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; only work for LAG or ECMP
                                    single hop<br>
                                    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ingress interfaces = all
                                    components from LAG/ECMP (multiple
                                    ifIndex, typically) &nbsp;</div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>What we meant here was that ingress
                                  sampling would have to be enable on
                                  the downstream device (hence the
                                  central management entity must come
                                  into play to identify large flows).&nbsp; <br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I still believe that a drawing would clarify things.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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                              <div>
                                <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
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                                    <br>
                                    this entire section 4.3.3 needs some
                                    improvements<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <br>
                                    -<br>
                                    On one side, you wrote "Specific
                                    algorithms for placement of large
                                    flows are out of scope of this
                                    document.". On the other side, "The
                                    following parameters are required
                                    the configuration of <u>this</u>
                                    feature". It seems contradictory.<br>
                                    It's unclear why you need the
                                    following parameter:<br>
                                    <br>
                                    <pre>     .  Imbalance threshold: the difference between the utilization of
        the least utilized and most utilized component links.  Expressed
        as a percentage of link speed.

Also, does ECMP/LAG always require equivalent link speed for their components?</pre>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div>The imbalance threshold is a
                                  measure of how much imbalance one is
                                  willing to tolerate before taking the
                                  hit of potential packet reordering in
                                  some flows. &nbsp;Will clarify. &nbsp;</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14.400002479553223px">Thanks
                            for catching the issue with link speed.
                            &nbsp;While in most cases speeds are consistent,
                            there may be the case of composite links
                            which combine links of different speeds
                            (actually permitted by 802.1AX), so we will
                            provide a generalized formula for the
                            imbalance threshold which takes into account
                            the individual speeds of each of the
                            component links.&nbsp;</span><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div class="">
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                  <pre> 
-
<span>5.2. System Configuration and Identification Parameters</span>

     .  IP address: The IP address of a specific router that the
        feature is being configured on, or that the large flow placement
        is being applied to.

     .  LAG ID: Identifies the LAG. The LAG ID may be required when
        configuring this feature (to apply a specific set of large flow
        identification parameters to the LAG) and will be required when
        specifying flow placement to achieve the desired rebalancing.

     .  Component Link ID: Identifies the component link within a LAG.
        This is required when specifying flow placement to achieve the
        desired rebalancing.

</pre>
                                  Nothing regarding ECMP? <br>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>Initially we were more focused on
                              getting this done for LAG, but then we
                              completely overlooked ECMP. &nbsp;5.2, 5.3, and
                              5.4 would probably benefit from a bit of
                              clean-up as follows:</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Add the following to 5.2:</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>ECMP group: Identifies a particular
                              ECMP group.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>ECMP nexthop: Identifies a particular
                              nexthop within an ECMP group.</div>
                            <div>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Add the following line to the end of
                              section 5.3.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>When using ECMP, the nexthop within an
                              ECMP group is used to identify the
                              component link for placing the large flow.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Add the following to the end of Section
                              5.4.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>When using ECMP, the ECMP group and the
                              corresponding Nexthops along with the
                              percentage of traffic to be assigned to
                              each Nexthop is required. &nbsp;Finally it is
                              also possible that an ECMP Nexthop itself
                              comprises a LAG in which case both the
                              Nexthop and the LAG Component ID would
                              need to be specified, and the weights of
                              both the Nexthop's within the ECMP Group
                              and the Component Links within the LAG
                              would need to be adjusted.<br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Ok.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div class="gmail_quote">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div class="gmail_extra">
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div class="h5">
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <br>
                                    -<br>
                                    <pre>   For high speed links, the etherStatsHighCapacityTable MIB [RFC 3273]
   can be used.

Well, only for ethernet.</pre>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div>Will clarify that.&nbsp;<br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <br>
                                    <br>
                                    <br>
                                    EDITORIAL:<br>
                                    - <br>
                                    figure 2<br>
                                    <br>
                                    OLD:<br>
                                    <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)    | -&gt;     |   (R2)  |</pre>
                                    NEW:<br>
                                    <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)     | -&gt;     |   (R2)    |</pre>
                                    <br>
                                    <br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div>Will fix.</div>
                                <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <br>
                                    -&nbsp; The indentation in section 2 is
                                    not correct<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <br>
                                    - "For tunneling protocols like GRE,
                                    VXLAN, NVGRE, STT, etc.,"<br>
                                    You need to expand and provide
                                    references.<br>
                                    <br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div>Will provide references. &nbsp;What do
                                  mean by expand -- just expand the
                                  acronyms (already in the acronym
                                  section) or something else?&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <pre>- a PBR rule
Expand.</pre>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>OK</div>
                            <div>
                              <div class="h5">
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    -<br>
                                    OLD:<br>
                                    <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           |        |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)    | -&gt;     |   (R2)  |
                  |        (2)|--------|(2)        |

NEW:
                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           |        |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)     | -&gt;     |   (R2)    |
                  |        (2)|--------|(2)        |

</pre>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <pre>-
OLD:
The IPFIX information model [RFC 7011] 
NEW:
The IPFIX information model [RFC 7012] &nbsp;
</pre>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    Regards, Benoit<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------070802060801080208020703--


From nobody Mon Mar 10 13:49:18 2014
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From: "Rajesh Pazhyannur (rpazhyan)" <rpazhyan@cisco.com>
To: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Working Group Last call
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Hello OPSAWAG chairs,

In the last week's meeting there was a recommendation to make a WGLC for th=
e following draft--
IEEE 802.11 MAC Profile for CAPWAP: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-o=
psawg-capwap-hybridmac

I wanted to know when you would send out the note.

Thanks

Regards

Rajesh


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<div>Hello OPSAWAG chairs, </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>In the last week&#8217;s meeting there was a recommendation to make a =
WGLC for the following draft--&nbsp; </div>
<div>IEEE 802.11 MAC Profile for CAPWAP: <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-hybridmac"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-hybridmac</u></font></a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I wanted to know when you would send out the note.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Rajesh </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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From nobody Tue Mar 18 11:39:02 2014
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 19:38:47 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [OPSAWG] OPSAWG liaison to the IEEE 802.11 WG on new work on CAPWAP
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Dear all,

FYI, as discussed during the OPSAWG meeting.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1312/

Regards, Benoit


From nobody Wed Mar 19 20:05:41 2014
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Draft minutes from OpsAWG meeting.
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Hi all,

I'd missed the fact that we only had a minutes taker for the first
part of the joint OpsArea / OpsAWG meeting. Anyway, I listened to the
audio recording on a long flight last night, and created us some
minutes - in a few cases the audio was't quite clear enough to get
names, apologies if I misattributed your comments.

These are draft minutes, and I plan on submitting them soon, assuming
no-one finds any glaring mistakes.

-------
OpsAWG Minutes.
-----------------
Audio filename: ietf89-buckingham-20140304-1610-pm3.mp3
OpsAWG portion of meeting starts at: 01:01:30


Agenda bashing.
Document summary.
 - 3 documents with IESG.
 - 5 Working Group doc, all being presented today.
 - Published RFC7124.




Management Information Base for Virtual Machines Controlled by a Hypervisor
draft-ietf-opsawg-vmm-mib-00
Hirochika - 5 minutes.
1:05:00
----------------------
Draft updates.
MIB Objects for MV Controlled by Hypervisor.
  MIB to be installed in Hypervisor, not the VMs.
Summary of changes - comments form last IETF, editorial primarily.
  Clarify objectives, etc.
Added relationship to other MIBS.
Discussions on the R/W SNMP MIB bits.
  We removed the persistant config part.
  Still have some on the operational state part.

Questions / comments:
Al Morton?: Surprised not to see VM utilization in this.
A: We install an agent on the VM and use the host object mib.
Basically this covers stuff not in host resources MIB.
Scott Bradner: With regards to vmaxmem. I think this violated spirit
of IESG SNMP statement. Don't want to solve here, but we should have a
discussion with the relevent IESG folk.
A: Yup.



CAPWAP Extension for 802.11n and Power/channel Autoconfiguration
draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-extension-02
Dapeng Liu - 5 minutes.
1:11:30
---------------------------
Draft updates.
>From last meeting:
  Editorial review, editorial changes.
  Need IEEE Expert review
Status:
  Thanks to Tom Taylor for editorial review / suggestions, and
technical discussions. All on -03.
  New version uploaded today.
  On expert review: Haven't started yet. Dorothy cannot attend (conflict).
    TODO (Authors): Plenary in March - hope to do conflict review there.
Hope after that's done to do WGLC.
Chair: Many folk have read this.



The CAPWAP drafts
Comments/discussion on draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-hybridmac
Comments/discussion on draft-zhang-opsawg-capwap-cds-01
Rajesh Pazhyannur - 15 minutes.
1:15:00
------------------------------
MAC profiles - draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-hybridmac
Problem Statement:
  CAPWAP RFC - describe split MAC "profiles".
  Enc / dec could happen at AP or controller.
  No way to configure which.
  This draft fixes that - removes ambiguity.
Updates:
  Editorial. Add more descriptive text, why solving this.
  TODO (Authors): Fix typo in Table 1.
Chairs: A few have read. Most of those think a good idea.
TODO (Chairs): Start WGLC.

draft-zhang-opsawg-capwap-cds - 1:20:00
Currently supported CAPWAP architectures.
Overview of new tunneled mode.
Problem statement:
  APs managed by controller, want to tunnel traffic to differnt endpoint.
  Maybe using differrnt protocol.
Updates:
  More descriptive text.
  More technical content - new information element.
Have evidence of support onlist from number of carriers - CMCC, AT&T.
Cisco is supporting this - we have running code, hope to be shipping
in 3-4 months.
Would like Adoption.

Questions:
Dan: Do you know if you are the only vendor doing this?
A: If we were the only vendor we wouldn't be pushing this here. Want
interoperabile. Maybe Hauwei.
Dan: (Comment) - Don't want to conflict with IEEE. This is a change in
architecture. We only have a few CAPWAP contributors here.
Should this be done in OpsAWG or shoild we have another WG with more
focus on it?
A: Change is introducing tunnel mode. Tunnel parameters will be done
in other groups, with more knowledge of that.
Melinda: We are fine with it here (Minute taker note: I'm assuming
that means Melinda will handle the docs :-P)
Benoit (AD): Let's just do it here. Lots of process to spin up new WG,
looks like the same folk will do it here or there.
Joel (AD): Don't care where we do work, but don't want to shoot IEEE
in the foot. Let's coordinate with them.
TODO (Chairs): Send liasion type thingie to IEEE to ensure not
stepping on their toes.
TODO (Chairs): Assuming no conflict, send adoption call.



The COMAN drafts:
draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-probstate-reqs-01
draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-use-cases-01
Ersue, Mehmet  - 15 minutes.
01:41:00
---------------------------------
draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-probstate-reqs
Updates:
  Bugfixes, updates, better focus, new terms. better security
considerations. Deleted apendixes.

draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-use-cases
Updates:
  Was more work.
  New section on access technolgies.
  New use case, shortened military.
Open issues:
  Better align security considerations sections.
  Section 3.11 - may need to be reworked if IETF doesn't like this
kind of use case.
  Sections 3.8, 3.9 - merge?
We thought we were done, then got a bunch of additional comments.
  Have to address them, then think ready for WGLC.
  Fair bit of work, but look valid / useful.
Comment (name?): Working on similar things on CORE, might be
interesting to folk.


Network Configuration Negotiation Problem Statement and Requirements
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps
Brian Carpenter - 15 minutes.
01:47:00
----------------------------------
First time talking about this in this WG.
Context:
  Desire to decreate (well, stop increasing) operational costs in
carrier networks.
Autonomy of config should help with that - "plug and play for the ISP".
Devices should configure themselves.
  Need to negitiate with each other.
Want to make this practical, not just a research topic.
Model derives from routing protocols.
How can we extend this to all types of config.
Less hirarchy.
Devices need to learn from other devices - config decided in compatiable manner.
Draft - analysis of scenraio, design requirmenents. Looking if any
existing protocols are a good match.
Need generic protocol.
Want no human intervention, and support dry run.
Network itself can setup resources on other devices, and automated recovery.
Need strong auth between devices.
Allows better use of resources.
Looked at netconf / rsvp - not good fits.
Questions:
Mehmet Ersue: Have you looked at RestConf in NETCONF WG? Might be a good fit.
A: Nope, hadn't seen that. Not interesting in owning our own protocol,
will look at that.
Wes George: Also look at opsawg-automatic-network-configuration. It is
related / overlap in considerations. Might be interesting / useful to
you.
A: Looked at it, we went further, will look again / more.
Stefan Winter: Been following this, I'll talk about automating edge in
a bit. Are edge devices in scope?
A: In abstract, everything is in interest.
Brian: Are folk interested in this here?
A: Some, not a huge number of hands.
Wes George: I think there is a problem here to discuss. Scale of
problem is tricky. Defining the problem / use case is important, lots
of work in differnt places.


Update on ETSI NFV Management & Orchestration WG
Ersue, Mehmet - 10 minutes
2:09:00
------------------------------------
Overview / update on work on ETSI NFV Management and Orchestration WG.
Quick overview.
  Which bits do what.
Progress:
  Adopted interface approach.
  Cleaned up descriptors and information elements..
  Discussion on architectural improvements are ongoing,
  IETF, 3GPP, DMTF, TOSCA and OpenStack gap analysis are in development.
Big list of described interfaces.
Next step.



draft-winter-opsawg-eap-metadata-00
Stefan Winter - 10 minutes
02:18:00
---------------------------
Purpose:
  Securely configuring EAP on edge devices.
Problem:
  EAP is a container. It's tricky for end users to configure, many parameters.
  Let's make this simpler.
  Devices can have multiple methods, priority?
Draft:
  A way to send EAP peer configuration to the user, and have them
import the config.
  Especially an issue in BYOD, with long PDF instructions.
  We keep hearing it's too hard to make work properly.
  Many implmentations offer shortcuts, which often make things insecure.
  We propose a standard way to ship EAP configs around and allow users
to import these.
    XML or JSON, or something?
  We have an actual implmentation!
    Currenty produces the vendor versions, and the spec in this draft.
    Have clients that read these XML, for Linux and Android.
Questions:
Name?: I propose YANG, I rewrote the XML schema into YANG. I might be biased :-)
A: We wrote the XML first. Can change to YANG if folk want.
Benoit: I like the idea. I like that you have implementation. Might be
worth getting vendors to say that they like it.
Ern ?: I like this. Don't care about format. Still no standard way to
get data to clients.
A: We looked how Apple does it, but this doesn't include a method for
that. [Audio cuts off / truncated.]



-- END --


From nobody Mon Mar 24 05:35:32 2014
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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Dear all,

a while ago, I had announced a draft on a new USM authentication protocol HMAC-SHA-256-128 for use in SNMP. Following
Uri's suggestion (and with his valuable support) I have considerably extended the draft:
 - Further SHA-2 based HMAC authentication protocols have been included to provide ore flexibility.
 - A (short) section explains how to perform key change and key localization with these protocols
 - A MIB definition has been added.

URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00


Abstract:
   This memo specifies new optional HMAC-SHA-2 authentication protocols
   for the User-based Security Model (USM) for SNMPv3 defined in RFC
   3414.


Due to the extension of the draft to other SHA-2-based HMAC, I have changed the draft name from
	draft-hmac-sha-256-128-usm-snmp
to
	draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp
resulting in a reset of the version number (00).

Is there interest in adoption of this draft by the WG?

Johannes



From nobody Mon Mar 24 11:00:51 2014
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To: Johannes Merkle <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
From: David Reid <reid@snmp.com>
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:35:24 +0100. <5330268C.4060002@secunet.com> 
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:00:40 -0400
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I think this should be adopted by the working group. I'm willing to
review the document and most likely implement it.

-David Reid


> Dear all,
> 
> a while ago, I had announced a draft on a new USM authentication protocol HMAC-SHA-256-128 for use in SNMP. Following
> Uri's suggestion (and with his valuable support) I have considerably extended the draft:
>  - Further SHA-2 based HMAC authentication protocols have been included to provide ore flexibility.
>  - A (short) section explains how to perform key change and key localization with these protocols
>  - A MIB definition has been added.
> 
> URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00
> 
> 
> Abstract:
>    This memo specifies new optional HMAC-SHA-2 authentication protocols
>    for the User-based Security Model (USM) for SNMPv3 defined in RFC
>    3414.
> 
> 
> Due to the extension of the draft to other SHA-2-based HMAC, I have changed the draft name from
> 	draft-hmac-sha-256-128-usm-snmp
> to
> 	draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp
> resulting in a reset of the version number (00).
> 
> Is there interest in adoption of this draft by the WG?
> 
> Johannes
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


From nobody Mon Mar 24 11:47:57 2014
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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On 3/24/14 4:35 AM, Johannes Merkle wrote:
> a while ago, I had announced a draft on a new USM authentication protocol HMAC-SHA-256-128 for use in SNMP. Following
> Uri's suggestion (and with his valuable support) I have considerably extended the draft:
>  - Further SHA-2 based HMAC authentication protocols have been included to provide ore flexibility.
>  - A (short) section explains how to perform key change and key localization with these protocols
>  - A MIB definition has been added.

> Is there interest in adoption of this draft by the WG?

Hi, Johannes:

We're trying to make sure that documents get adequate review
before adoption by the working group, so before we put out a
call for adoption we're going to try to get feedback from
someone who can provide cryptographic review and someone on
the snmp side.  We'll start that process moving.

Melinda


From nobody Tue Mar 25 02:26:16 2014
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Subject: [OPSAWG] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-15.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : An Overview of Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Tools
        Authors         : Tal Mizrahi
                          Nurit Sprecher
                          Elisa Bellagamba
                          Yaacov Weingarten
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-15.txt
	Pages           : 51
	Date            : 2014-03-25

Abstract:
   Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term
   that refers to a toolset for fault detection and isolation, and for
   performance measurement. Over the years various OAM tools have been
   defined for various layers in the protocol stack.

   This document summarizes some of the OAM tools defined in the IETF in
   the context of IP unicast, MPLS, MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP),
   pseudowires, and TRILL. This document focuses on tools for detecting
   and isolating failures in networks and for performance monitoring.
   Control and management aspects of OAM are outside the scope of this
   document. Network repair functions such as Fast Reroute (FRR) and
   protection switching, which are often triggered by OAM protocols, are
   also out of the scope of this document.

   The target audience of this document includes network equipment
   vendors, network operators and standards development organizations,
   and can be used as an index to some of the main OAM tools defined in
   the IETF. This document provides a brief description of each of the
   OAM tools in the IETF. At the end of the document a list of the OAM
   toolsets and a list of the OAM functions are presented as a summary.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-15

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-15


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: t.petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
To: Johannes Merkle <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>, <opsawg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification fordraft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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I am confused by your choice of names.  The text uses, e.g.,
usmHMACSHA224128AuthProtocol

whereas the MIB module has

 usmHmacSha224128Protocol

Do these refer to the same identity (times six)?

I think that the IANA Considerations needs more work; you might want to
review RFC4181 for a more detailed approach but you need at least
something along the lines of an explicit request that the MIB module be
assigned a number under the appropriate tree, eg

.1 IANA is requested to assign an object identifier for

   Descriptor        OBJECT IDENTIFIER value
         ----------        -----------------------
  snmpUsmHmacSha2MIB           { snmpModules XXX }

[with XXX harking back to the same string in the MIB module itself].

And then for each algorithm, so that the entries in IANA can be tied
into the text of the final RFC,

.2 IANA is requested to assign a value in the SnmpAuthProtocols registry
for each of

Value                 Description                        Reference

aa   usmHMACSHA224128AuthProtocol     RFC YYYY
bb   usmHMACSHA256128AuthProtocol    RFC YYYY
cc   usmHMACSHA256192AuthProtocol    RFC YYYY
dd   usmHMACSHA384256AuthProtocol    RFC YYYY
ee   usmHMACSHA512256AuthProtocol    RFC YYYY
ff    usmHMACSHA512384AuthProtocol    RFC YYYY

-- RFC Ed.: replace YYYY with actual RFC number & remove this line

with aa bb cc  etc appearing in the MIB Module.  As it stands, you might
appear to be requesting that all six get the same value, namely mm.

And then there are Security Considerations.  You are replacing a simple,
well understood choice of two values with a choice of eight, and saying
that there is no need to implement them all.  This gives great scope for
a lack of interoperability.  Should there be a mandatory to implement
value (or negotiation - perhaps not)?

I would like to see some discussion of the benefits, if any, of the six
new options.  I have seen discussions along these lines on the TLS WG
list (with a considerable degree of expertise in cryptography present)
that makes it far from clear cut what the best choice is, and that what
appears to be the strongest may not be a good choice for IETF protocols.

Tom Petch


----- Original Message -----
From: "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
To: <opsawg@ietf.org>
Cc: "Manfred Lochter" <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>; <uri@ll.mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 12:35 PM
Subject: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification
fordraft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt


> Dear all,
>
> a while ago, I had announced a draft on a new USM authentication
protocol HMAC-SHA-256-128 for use in SNMP. Following
> Uri's suggestion (and with his valuable support) I have considerably
extended the draft:
>  - Further SHA-2 based HMAC authentication protocols have been
included to provide ore flexibility.
>  - A (short) section explains how to perform key change and key
localization with these protocols
>  - A MIB definition has been added.
>
> URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
> Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp/
> Htmlized:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This memo specifies new optional HMAC-SHA-2 authentication
protocols
>    for the User-based Security Model (USM) for SNMPv3 defined in RFC
>    3414.
>
>
> Due to the extension of the draft to other SHA-2-based HMAC, I have
changed the draft name from
> draft-hmac-sha-256-128-usm-snmp
> to
> draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp
> resulting in a reset of the version number (00).
>
> Is there interest in adoption of this draft by the WG?
>
> Johannes
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


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To: "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>, Johannes Merkle <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
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On 3/25/14 11:33 , "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:

>I am confused by your choice of names.  The text uses, e.g.,
>usmHMACSHA224128AuthProtocol
>
>whereas the MIB module has
>
> usmHmacSha224128Protocol
>
>Do these refer to the same identity (times six)?

I think yes, and would suggest the following (unified) name format:

usmHMAC128SHA224AuthProtocol


for all of them.

>I think that the IANA Considerations needs more work; you might want to
>review RFC4181 for a more detailed approach but you need at least
>something along the lines of an explicit request that the MIB module be
>assigned a number under the appropriate tree, e.g.,..............

I'll leave this to Johannes to take care of. :-)

>And then there are Security Considerations.  You are replacing a simple,
>well understood choice of two values with a choice of eight, and saying
>that there is no need to implement them all.  This gives great scope for
>a lack of interoperability.  Should there be a mandatory to implement
>value (or negotiation - perhaps not)?

Can we have mandatory-to-implement in an "optional" RFC? Assuming the
answer is yes, I'd recommend:

For those who implement this RFC, usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol is MUST,
usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol is SHOULD, everything else is MAY. Unless
there's a preference for the "non-truncated" algorithms.

>I would like to see some discussion of the benefits, if any, of the six
>new options.

Do you mean "the benefits of having so many rather than just one or two",
or do you mean "the benefits of adding SHA2-based auth"?

If it's the first - then we probably can shrink the number of the
available choices. The question is - do we select truncated ones (as the
prior standards did), or not?

If it's the second - I'll let others speak. :-)


>I have seen discussions along these lines on the TLS WG
>list (with a considerable degree of expertise in cryptography present)
>that makes it far from clear cut what the best choice is, and that what
>appears to be the strongest may not be a good choice for IETF protocols.

Honestly I don't think TLS WG is a good example here, considering the
complexity of the protocol, and the kind of problems they're facing and
are trying to address. But your point is taken.

TNX!


>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
>To: <opsawg@ietf.org>
>Cc: "Manfred Lochter" <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>; <uri@ll.mit.edu>
>Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 12:35 PM
>Subject: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification
>fordraft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
>
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> a while ago, I had announced a draft on a new USM authentication
>protocol HMAC-SHA-256-128 for use in SNMP. Following
>> Uri's suggestion (and with his valuable support) I have considerably
>extended the draft:
>>  - Further SHA-2 based HMAC authentication protocols have been
>included to provide ore flexibility.
>>  - A (short) section explains how to perform key change and key
>localization with these protocols
>>  - A MIB definition has been added.
>>
>> URL:
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
>> Status:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp/
>> Htmlized:
>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00
>>
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    This memo specifies new optional HMAC-SHA-2 authentication
>protocols
>>    for the User-based Security Model (USM) for SNMPv3 defined in RFC
>>    3414.
>>
>>
>> Due to the extension of the draft to other SHA-2-based HMAC, I have
>changed the draft name from
>> draft-hmac-sha-256-128-usm-snmp
>> to
>> draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp
>> resulting in a reset of the version number (00).
>>
>> Is there interest in adoption of this draft by the WG?
>>
>> Johannes
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OPSAWG mailing list
>> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>

--B_3478593127_5627855
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--B_3478593127_5627855--


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To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>, Johannes Merkle <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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A further thought.

The update policy for SnmpAuthProtocols is Standards Track, so at
present this I-D - Informational - will not do.

And while an Individual Submission can be Standards Track, ADs often
prefer it to be a WG I-D.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melinda Shore" <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
To: "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
Cc: "Manfred Lochter" <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>; <opsawg@ietf.org>;
<uri@ll.mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 6:47 PM
> On 3/24/14 4:35 AM, Johannes Merkle wrote:
> > a while ago, I had announced a draft on a new USM authentication
protocol HMAC-SHA-256-128 for use in SNMP. Following
> > Uri's suggestion (and with his valuable support) I have considerably
extended the draft:
> >  - Further SHA-2 based HMAC authentication protocols have been
included to provide ore flexibility.
> >  - A (short) section explains how to perform key change and key
localization with these protocols
> >  - A MIB definition has been added.
>
> > Is there interest in adoption of this draft by the WG?
>
> Hi, Johannes:
>
> We're trying to make sure that documents get adequate review
> before adoption by the working group, so before we put out a
> call for adoption we're going to try to get feedback from
> someone who can provide cryptographic review and someone on
> the snmp side.  We'll start that process moving.
>
> Melinda


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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:03:01 +0100
From: Johannes Merkle <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification fordraft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL schrieb am 25.03.2014 16:52:
> On 3/25/14 11:33 , "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
> 
>> I am confused by your choice of names.  The text uses, e.g.,
>> usmHMACSHA224128AuthProtocol
>>
>> whereas the MIB module has
>>
>> usmHmacSha224128Protocol
>>
>> Do these refer to the same identity (times six)?

Good catch!

> 
> I think yes, and would suggest the following (unified) name format:
> 
> usmHMAC128SHA224AuthProtocol

I like this proposal, because it is easier to read.


>> I think that the IANA Considerations needs more work; you might want to
>> review RFC4181 for a more detailed approach but you need at least
>> something along the lines of an explicit request that the MIB module be
>> assigned a number under the appropriate tree, e.g.,..............
> 
> I'll leave this to Johannes to take care of. :-)

Yeah, I'll take care of this.

> 
>> And then there are Security Considerations.  You are replacing a simple,
>> well understood choice of two values with a choice of eight, and saying
>> that there is no need to implement them all.  This gives great scope for
>> a lack of interoperability.  Should there be a mandatory to implement
>> value (or negotiation - perhaps not)?
> 
> Can we have mandatory-to-implement in an "optional" RFC? 

AFAIK this is common.

> Assuming the answer is yes, I'd recommend:
> For those who implement this RFC, usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol is MUST,
> usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol is SHOULD, everything else is MAY. Unless
> there's a preference for the "non-truncated" algorithms.

I had already received very positive feedback on the first draft (which specified merely usmHMAC128SHA256AuthProtocol),
.e.g.


Thus, I have no clear preference here, but Uri's proposal is fine for me.

> 
>> I would like to see some discussion of the benefits, if any, of the six
>> new options.
> 
> Do you mean "the benefits of having so many rather than just one or two",
> or do you mean "the benefits of adding SHA2-based auth"?
> 
> If it's the first - then we probably can shrink the number of the
> available choices. The question is - do we select truncated ones (as the
> prior standards did), or not?

All versions use truncated HMAC, the difference lies in the degree of truncation. You probably mean "do we select the
variants using 50% truncation or those with 75% truncation?"

I don't think that interoperability is really a big issue. Crypto libraries typically support most, if not all SHA-2
hash functions. Futhermore, implementing two different lengths for truncation is trivial. Thus, I do not see why anyone
should implement usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol but not usmHMAC256SHA512AuthProtocol.

But, yes, if required for WG consensus, I do not object to remove some variants.

> 
> If it's the second - I'll let others speak. :-)
> 

>From Tom's responses to our first draft, I understand that he does not question that SHA2 based HMAC authentication is
useful.

> 
>> I have seen discussions along these lines on the TLS WG
>> list (with a considerable degree of expertise in cryptography present)
>> that makes it far from clear cut what the best choice is, and that what
>> appears to be the strongest may not be a good choice for IETF protocols.
> 
> Honestly I don't think TLS WG is a good example here, considering the
> complexity of the protocol, and the kind of problems they're facing and
> are trying to address. But your point is taken.
> 

I think Tom is referring to the discussion regarding MAC truncation, which was a sideline of the discussion about the
optimal order of encryption and MAC in TLS.
http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/aFZ9KRJi4JLUvLRo8Ek7
http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/aFZ9KQVpfdL7WYG1B9l7

The second thread cites Bart Preneel saying
"On the other hand, several (key recovery)
attacks on MAC algorithms (including HMAC-MD4 and HMAC-MD5)
have been found based on internal collisions. These attacks
would become more difficult if fewer output bits are available.
[...]
My conclusion is that my intuition as cryptanalyst was correct
and that it would be best to shorten the output of a MAC
algorithm to half the internal state."
This recommendation is also included in the seminal paper of van Oorschot and Preneel (page 11)
ftp://ftp.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/cosic/preneel/mdxmac_crypto95.ps.gz
For the SHA-2 family, the length of the internal state is 256 bits for SHA-224 and SHA-256 and 512 bits for SHA-384 and
SHA-512 (recall that SHA-224 and SHA-384 are truncated SHA-225 and SHA-512, respectively, with modified constants). This
recommendation results in HMAC128SHA224, HMAC128SHA256, HMAC256SHA384, HMAC256SHA512.

On the other hand, shortening the output length reduces the strength against collision attacks. Thus, we were not
completely comfortable with the 50% truncation for SHA-256 and SHA-512. On the other hand, AFAIK, there are no clear
cryptanalytic results about truncation, let alone on the optimal degree of truncation. For this reason, we also included
HMAC192SHA256 and HMAC384SHA512.

-- 
Johannes


From nobody Tue Mar 25 11:06:39 2014
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To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>
From: David Reid <reid@snmp.com>
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> >I am confused by your choice of names.  The text uses, e.g.,
> >usmHMACSHA224128AuthProtocol
> >
> >whereas the MIB module has
> >
> > usmHmacSha224128Protocol
> >
> >Do these refer to the same identity (times six)?
> 
> I think yes, and would suggest the following (unified) name format:
> 
> usmHMAC128SHA224AuthProtocol

I like Uri's suggested name format.


> >And then there are Security Considerations.  You are replacing a simple,
> >well understood choice of two values with a choice of eight, and saying
> >that there is no need to implement them all.  This gives great scope for
> >a lack of interoperability.  Should there be a mandatory to implement
> >value (or negotiation - perhaps not)?
> 
> Can we have mandatory-to-implement in an "optional" RFC? Assuming the
> answer is yes, I'd recommend:
> 
> For those who implement this RFC, usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol is MUST,
> usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol is SHOULD, everything else is MAY. Unless
> there's a preference for the "non-truncated" algorithms.
> 
> >I would like to see some discussion of the benefits, if any, of the six
> >new options.
> 
> Do you mean "the benefits of having so many rather than just one or two",
> or do you mean "the benefits of adding SHA2-based auth"?
> 
> If it's the first - then we probably can shrink the number of the
> available choices. The question is - do we select truncated ones (as the
> prior standards did), or not?

I would prefer shrinking the number of choices and using the truncated 
ones, although I don't feel strongly about that preference.

> 
> If it's the second - I'll let others speak. :-)

For me, the benefit of adding SHA2-based auth is that I have
customers asking for it. (a small number of customers, but
enough to justify the work since it is very low cost to implement).

-David Reid


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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:11:41 -0800
From: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
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On 3/25/14 9:35 AM, t.petch wrote:
> And while an Individual Submission can be Standards Track, ADs often
> prefer it to be a WG I-D.

Right, and if there's interest, energy, and review, we'll
put out a call for adoption.  So, this discussion so far has
been extremely helpful.

Melinda


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Cc: Manfred Lochter <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification fordraft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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Right!

On the names, I am happy with whatever you choose, as long as the I-D is
internally consistent!  The existing one is usmHMACSHAAuthProtocol so
that looks like a good model to follow, which Uri's suggestion does.

As to how many, I am uncomfortable with giving implementers the choice
of eight along with the statement that you do not have to implement them
all, which, for me, invites a lack of interoperability, regardless of
whether or not the crypto libraries have all the options available so
making them easy to implement!  So my thinking would be either a MUST
implement for one, or recommend that all should be implemented, with a
recommended order to choose, or some such - just not the current
wording.

As to MUST, this I-D will have to be Standards Track, not Informational,
in order to update SnmpAuthProtocols so the use of requirements
language, and the boiler plate thereon, is not an issue.

On Security, I have memories of discussions on the TLS list of the
merits of size and truncation.  One reference I have found is
'SHA-1 is being deprecated'
from 2008 from one 'Uri' - so I think something along those lines worth
including by way of justification for this I-D (Suite B got a lot of
mentions around that time).  I have memories of an argument against the
use of SHA-512, I think on the grounds that the registers were not wide
enough and that the extra security did not justify the extra computation
required, but cannot find a reference for that.  As to degree of
truncation, I understand the argument in principle but do not have the
mathematics to take a view as to what is best.  I do note that in 2006,
it was suggested that the merit of truncation was to save bandwidth in
constrained environments - I don't know if that is now more or less
applicable.  So I would like to see more in the Security Considerations
along these lines with a target audience of non-cryptographers.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>; "t.petch"
<ietfc@btconnect.com>; <opsawg@ietf.org>
Cc: "Manfred Lochter" <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 6:03 PM
>
> Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL schrieb am 25.03.2014 16:52:
> > On 3/25/14 11:33 , "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I am confused by your choice of names.  The text uses, e.g.,
> >> usmHMACSHA224128AuthProtocol
> >>
> >> whereas the MIB module has
> >>
> >> usmHmacSha224128Protocol
> >>
> >> Do these refer to the same identity (times six)?
>
> Good catch!
>
> >
> > I think yes, and would suggest the following (unified) name format:
> >
> > usmHMAC128SHA224AuthProtocol
>
> I like this proposal, because it is easier to read.
>
>
> >> I think that the IANA Considerations needs more work; you might
want to
> >> review RFC4181 for a more detailed approach but you need at least
> >> something along the lines of an explicit request that the MIB
module be
> >> assigned a number under the appropriate tree, e.g.,..............
> >
> > I'll leave this to Johannes to take care of. :-)
>
> Yeah, I'll take care of this.
>
> >
> >> And then there are Security Considerations.  You are replacing a
simple,
> >> well understood choice of two values with a choice of eight, and
saying
> >> that there is no need to implement them all.  This gives great
scope for
> >> a lack of interoperability.  Should there be a mandatory to
implement
> >> value (or negotiation - perhaps not)?
> >
> > Can we have mandatory-to-implement in an "optional" RFC?
>
> AFAIK this is common.
>
> > Assuming the answer is yes, I'd recommend:
> > For those who implement this RFC, usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol is
MUST,
> > usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol is SHOULD, everything else is MAY.
Unless
> > there's a preference for the "non-truncated" algorithms.
>
> I had already received very positive feedback on the first draft
(which specified merely usmHMAC128SHA256AuthProtocol),
> .e.g.
>
>
> Thus, I have no clear preference here, but Uri's proposal is fine for
me.
>
> >
> >> I would like to see some discussion of the benefits, if any, of the
six
> >> new options.
> >
> > Do you mean "the benefits of having so many rather than just one or
two",
> > or do you mean "the benefits of adding SHA2-based auth"?
> >
> > If it's the first - then we probably can shrink the number of the
> > available choices. The question is - do we select truncated ones (as
the
> > prior standards did), or not?
>
> All versions use truncated HMAC, the difference lies in the degree of
truncation. You probably mean "do we select the
> variants using 50% truncation or those with 75% truncation?"
>
> I don't think that interoperability is really a big issue. Crypto
libraries typically support most, if not all SHA-2
> hash functions. Futhermore, implementing two different lengths for
truncation is trivial. Thus, I do not see why anyone
> should implement usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol but not
usmHMAC256SHA512AuthProtocol.
>
> But, yes, if required for WG consensus, I do not object to remove some
variants.
>
> >
> > If it's the second - I'll let others speak. :-)
> >
>
> From Tom's responses to our first draft, I understand that he does not
question that SHA2 based HMAC authentication is
> useful.
>
> >
> >> I have seen discussions along these lines on the TLS WG
> >> list (with a considerable degree of expertise in cryptography
present)
> >> that makes it far from clear cut what the best choice is, and that
what
> >> appears to be the strongest may not be a good choice for IETF
protocols.
> >
> > Honestly I don't think TLS WG is a good example here, considering
the
> > complexity of the protocol, and the kind of problems they're facing
and
> > are trying to address. But your point is taken.
> >
>
> I think Tom is referring to the discussion regarding MAC truncation,
which was a sideline of the discussion about the
> optimal order of encryption and MAC in TLS.
> http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/aFZ9KRJi4JLUvLRo8Ek7
> http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/aFZ9KQVpfdL7WYG1B9l7
>
> The second thread cites Bart Preneel saying
> "On the other hand, several (key recovery)
> attacks on MAC algorithms (including HMAC-MD4 and HMAC-MD5)
> have been found based on internal collisions. These attacks
> would become more difficult if fewer output bits are available.
> [...]
> My conclusion is that my intuition as cryptanalyst was correct
> and that it would be best to shorten the output of a MAC
> algorithm to half the internal state."
> This recommendation is also included in the seminal paper of van
Oorschot and Preneel (page 11)
> ftp://ftp.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/cosic/preneel/mdxmac_crypto95.ps.gz
> For the SHA-2 family, the length of the internal state is 256 bits for
SHA-224 and SHA-256 and 512 bits for SHA-384 and
> SHA-512 (recall that SHA-224 and SHA-384 are truncated SHA-225 and
SHA-512, respectively, with modified constants). This
> recommendation results in HMAC128SHA224, HMAC128SHA256, HMAC256SHA384,
HMAC256SHA512.
>
> On the other hand, shortening the output length reduces the strength
against collision attacks. Thus, we were not
> completely comfortable with the 50% truncation for SHA-256 and
SHA-512. On the other hand, AFAIK, there are no clear
> cryptanalytic results about truncation, let alone on the optimal
degree of truncation. For this reason, we also included
> HMAC192SHA256 and HMAC384SHA512.
>
> --
> Johannes


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On 3/27/14 10:23 , "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:

>Right!

:-)

>....a good model to follow, which Uri's suggestion does.

:-) Yep!

>As to how many, I am uncomfortable with giving implementers the choice
>of eight along with the statement that you do not have to implement them
>all, which, for me, invites a lack of interoperability, regardless of
>whether or not the crypto libraries have all the options available so
>making them easy to implement!

Hmm... Yes, but the whole reason the NIST standard defined several was
that different applications have different needs & requirements.
Otherwise, why not just define/standardize SHA512, and say "if you need
fewer bits - mix/truncate"?

>So my thinking would be either a MUST implement for one, or recommend
>that all should be implemented, with a
>recommended order to choose, or some such - just not the current wording.

I personally would be OK with this. One would be MUST, one or two would be
SHOULD, the rest would be MAY in the given order.

Yes it could affect interoperability, on the other hand - the market can
help sorting this part out. :-)

>As to MUST, this I-D will have to be Standards Track, not Informational,
>in order to update SnmpAuthProtocols so the use of requirements language,
>and the boiler plate thereon, is not an issue.

I'd have no problem with this RFC going Standards Track. Johannes?

>On Security, I have memories of discussions on the TLS list of the merits
>of size and truncation.  One reference I have found is 'SHA-1 is being
>deprecated' from 2008 from one 'Uri' - so I think something along those
>lines worth
>including by way of justification for this I-D (Suite B got a lot of
>mentions around that time).

:-)  Oh yes. And the TLS list discussion is an echo of the former IPsec
list discussion.

Not sure if it's a good idea to bring Suite B up at this time?

>I have memories of an argument against the use of SHA-512, I think on the
>grounds that the registers were not wide
>enough and that the extra security did not justify the extra computation
>required, but cannot find a reference for that.

I don't recall that, probably didn't care back then. In any case, (a) I
don't think these arguments apply now, and (b) SHA512 would be only SHOULD
if things go the way I'd like...

>As to degree of truncation, I understand the argument in principle but do
>not have the mathematics to take a view as to what is best.  I do note
>that in 2006, it was suggested that the merit of truncation was to save
>bandwidth in constrained environments - I don't know if that is now more
>or less applicable.

As Hugo Krawczyk (who was the key contributor and participant in that
discussion) recently confirmed, the MAIN reason for truncation was
bandwidth saving - but cryptographers found that it also offers some
benefits. 

IMHO, saving some bandwidth is always a good thing, because you can never
have too much of it. :-)

Would like to hear from others on this subject, given that:
 - truncation saves bandwidth;
 - truncation improves resistance to key guessing attacks;
 - truncation lowers resistance to birthday-paradox/digest-guessing
attacks.

What do we _want_ (care about) here?


>So I would like to see more in the Security Considerations along these
>lines with a target audience of non-cryptographers.

Johannes, would you put a few words there...?

TNX!


>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
>To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>; "t.petch"
><ietfc@btconnect.com>; <opsawg@ietf.org>
>Cc: "Manfred Lochter" <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 6:03 PM
>>
>> Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL schrieb am 25.03.2014 16:52:
>> > On 3/25/14 11:33 , "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I am confused by your choice of names.  The text uses, e.g.,
>> >> usmHMACSHA224128AuthProtocol
>> >>
>> >> whereas the MIB module has
>> >>
>> >> usmHmacSha224128Protocol
>> >>
>> >> Do these refer to the same identity (times six)?
>>
>> Good catch!
>>
>> >
>> > I think yes, and would suggest the following (unified) name format:
>> >
>> > usmHMAC128SHA224AuthProtocol
>>
>> I like this proposal, because it is easier to read.
>>
>>
>> >> I think that the IANA Considerations needs more work; you might
>want to
>> >> review RFC4181 for a more detailed approach but you need at least
>> >> something along the lines of an explicit request that the MIB
>module be
>> >> assigned a number under the appropriate tree, e.g.,..............
>> >
>> > I'll leave this to Johannes to take care of. :-)
>>
>> Yeah, I'll take care of this.
>>
>> >
>> >> And then there are Security Considerations.  You are replacing a
>simple,
>> >> well understood choice of two values with a choice of eight, and
>saying
>> >> that there is no need to implement them all.  This gives great
>scope for
>> >> a lack of interoperability.  Should there be a mandatory to
>implement
>> >> value (or negotiation - perhaps not)?
>> >
>> > Can we have mandatory-to-implement in an "optional" RFC?
>>
>> AFAIK this is common.
>>
>> > Assuming the answer is yes, I'd recommend:
>> > For those who implement this RFC, usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol is
>MUST,
>> > usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol is SHOULD, everything else is MAY.
>Unless
>> > there's a preference for the "non-truncated" algorithms.
>>
>> I had already received very positive feedback on the first draft
>(which specified merely usmHMAC128SHA256AuthProtocol),
>> .e.g.
>>
>>
>> Thus, I have no clear preference here, but Uri's proposal is fine for
>me.
>>
>> >
>> >> I would like to see some discussion of the benefits, if any, of the
>six
>> >> new options.
>> >
>> > Do you mean "the benefits of having so many rather than just one or
>two",
>> > or do you mean "the benefits of adding SHA2-based auth"?
>> >
>> > If it's the first - then we probably can shrink the number of the
>> > available choices. The question is - do we select truncated ones (as
>the
>> > prior standards did), or not?
>>
>> All versions use truncated HMAC, the difference lies in the degree of
>truncation. You probably mean "do we select the
>> variants using 50% truncation or those with 75% truncation?"
>>
>> I don't think that interoperability is really a big issue. Crypto
>libraries typically support most, if not all SHA-2
>> hash functions. Futhermore, implementing two different lengths for
>truncation is trivial. Thus, I do not see why anyone
>> should implement usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol but not
>usmHMAC256SHA512AuthProtocol.
>>
>> But, yes, if required for WG consensus, I do not object to remove some
>variants.
>>
>> >
>> > If it's the second - I'll let others speak. :-)
>> >
>>
>> From Tom's responses to our first draft, I understand that he does not
>question that SHA2 based HMAC authentication is
>> useful.
>>
>> >
>> >> I have seen discussions along these lines on the TLS WG
>> >> list (with a considerable degree of expertise in cryptography
>present)
>> >> that makes it far from clear cut what the best choice is, and that
>what
>> >> appears to be the strongest may not be a good choice for IETF
>protocols.
>> >
>> > Honestly I don't think TLS WG is a good example here, considering
>the
>> > complexity of the protocol, and the kind of problems they're facing
>and
>> > are trying to address. But your point is taken.
>> >
>>
>> I think Tom is referring to the discussion regarding MAC truncation,
>which was a sideline of the discussion about the
>> optimal order of encryption and MAC in TLS.
>> http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/aFZ9KRJi4JLUvLRo8Ek7
>> http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/aFZ9KQVpfdL7WYG1B9l7
>>
>> The second thread cites Bart Preneel saying
>> "On the other hand, several (key recovery)
>> attacks on MAC algorithms (including HMAC-MD4 and HMAC-MD5)
>> have been found based on internal collisions. These attacks
>> would become more difficult if fewer output bits are available.
>> [...]
>> My conclusion is that my intuition as cryptanalyst was correct
>> and that it would be best to shorten the output of a MAC
>> algorithm to half the internal state."
>> This recommendation is also included in the seminal paper of van
>Oorschot and Preneel (page 11)
>> ftp://ftp.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/cosic/preneel/mdxmac_crypto95.ps.gz
>> For the SHA-2 family, the length of the internal state is 256 bits for
>SHA-224 and SHA-256 and 512 bits for SHA-384 and
>> SHA-512 (recall that SHA-224 and SHA-384 are truncated SHA-225 and
>SHA-512, respectively, with modified constants). This
>> recommendation results in HMAC128SHA224, HMAC128SHA256, HMAC256SHA384,
>HMAC256SHA512.
>>
>> On the other hand, shortening the output length reduces the strength
>against collision attacks. Thus, we were not
>> completely comfortable with the 50% truncation for SHA-256 and
>SHA-512. On the other hand, AFAIK, there are no clear
>> cryptanalytic results about truncation, let alone on the optimal
>degree of truncation. For this reason, we also included
>> HMAC192SHA256 and HMAC384SHA512.
>>
>> --
>> Johannes
>

--B_3478769204_5375139
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--B_3478769204_5375139--


From nobody Thu Mar 27 09:52:23 2014
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:51:54 -0400
From: Ken Bannister <kb2ma@runbox.com>
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Subject: [OPSAWG] LLN monitoring/management software
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Is anyone aware of open source network monitoring/management software 
that has been extended to support a 6LoWPAN (802.15.4) LLN? I am casting 
a wide net, so SNMP, NETCONF, or some other interface is fine. I am 
interested in monitoring/management of link layer, RPL, and have an eye 
toward the work the 6TiSCH group is doing.

I have not found much myself, but here are a few related items/references:

* 6PANview, which is specific to LLNs [1]
* "Management of the Internet of Things" presentation [2]
* Recent drafts in opsawg that are collecting requirements and use cases 
on this subject

[1] http://www.ece.iisc.ernet.in/6panview/
[2] http://cnds.eecs.jacobs-university.de/slides/2013-im-iot-management.pdf

Thanks,
Ken Bannister


From nobody Thu Mar 27 10:18:11 2014
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From: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
To: Ken Bannister <kb2ma@runbox.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] LLN monitoring/management software
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--089e011618ce81cf0004f599c491
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Ken,

you may be interested in the 6lo WG. We have adopted a MIB module document
for 6lowpan interfaces:
draft-ietf-6lo-lowpan-mib-00

There was also some discussion on the COMAN mailing list:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/coman/current/maillist.html

While this group never initiated a BoF, some of the outcome has been
adopted in this WG (as you already mentioned):
draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-probstate-reqs-01
draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-use-cases-01

There is an individual draft for a MIB module for RPL, but I don't know the
status of it:
draft-sehgal-roll-rpl-mib-06

Best regards
Ulrich


On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Ken Bannister <kb2ma@runbox.com> wrote:

> Is anyone aware of open source network monitoring/management software that
> has been extended to support a 6LoWPAN (802.15.4) LLN? I am casting a wide
> net, so SNMP, NETCONF, or some other interface is fine. I am interested in
> monitoring/management of link layer, RPL, and have an eye toward the work
> the 6TiSCH group is doing.
>
> I have not found much myself, but here are a few related items/references:
>
> * 6PANview, which is specific to LLNs [1]
> * "Management of the Internet of Things" presentation [2]
> * Recent drafts in opsawg that are collecting requirements and use cases
> on this subject
>
> [1] http://www.ece.iisc.ernet.in/6panview/
> [2] http://cnds.eecs.jacobs-university.de/slides/2013-im-
> iot-management.pdf
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Bannister
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Ken,<br><br></div>you may be intereste=
d in the 6lo WG. We have adopted a MIB module document for 6lowpan interfac=
es: <br>draft-ietf-6lo-lowpan-mib-00<br><br></div>There was also some discu=
ssion on the COMAN mailing list:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/coman/current/maillist.html=
">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/coman/current/maillist.html</a><br><=
br>While this group never initiated a BoF, some of the outcome has been ado=
pted in this WG (as you already mentioned):<br>
draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-probstate-reqs-01<br>draft-ietf-opsawg-coman-use-ca=
ses-01<br><br></div><div>There is an individual draft for a MIB module for =
RPL, but I don&#39;t know the status of it:<br>draft-sehgal-roll-rpl-mib-06=
<br>
</div><div><br></div>Best regards<br></div>Ulrich<br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 9:51 =
AM, Ken Bannister <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kb2ma@runbox.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">kb2ma@runbox.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Is anyone aware of open source network monit=
oring/management software that has been extended to support a 6LoWPAN (802.=
15.4) LLN? I am casting a wide net, so SNMP, NETCONF, or some other interfa=
ce is fine. I am interested in monitoring/management of link layer, RPL, an=
d have an eye toward the work the 6TiSCH group is doing.<br>

<br>
I have not found much myself, but here are a few related items/references:<=
br>
<br>
* 6PANview, which is specific to LLNs [1]<br>
* &quot;Management of the Internet of Things&quot; presentation [2]<br>
* Recent drafts in opsawg that are collecting requirements and use cases on=
 this subject<br>
<br>
[1] <a href=3D"http://www.ece.iisc.ernet.in/6panview/" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.ece.iisc.ernet.in/<u></u>6panview/</a><br>
[2] <a href=3D"http://cnds.eecs.jacobs-university.de/slides/2013-im-iot-man=
agement.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://cnds.eecs.jacobs-<u></u>university.de=
/slides/2013-im-<u></u>iot-management.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Ken Bannister<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
OPSAWG mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:OPSAWG@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">OPSAWG@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/opsawg</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e011618ce81cf0004f599c491--


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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification fordraft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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Some more red tape.

The copyright in the MIB module is 2004.

You used the word 'SHALL' in s.3 which says to me that you need a
reference to RFC2119 and the boilerplate associated with it.

Normally, anything with a MIB Module in it contains standard MIB
boilerplate about the standard management framework; but this MIB Module
contains no objects, just identities, so does it need the boilerplate?
I would say not, but RFC4181 says it does (which in turn drags in four
more references)!  need guidance there.  You should at least include
RFC2578 in the references since that appears in this MIB module.

I must re-read RFC4181 - I suspect that there is more in there to be
added to this I-D.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
To: <opsawg@ietf.org>
Cc: "Manfred Lochter" <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>; <uri@ll.mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 12:35 PM


> Dear all,
>
> a while ago, I had announced a draft on a new USM authentication
protocol HMAC-SHA-256-128 for use in SNMP. Following
> Uri's suggestion (and with his valuable support) I have considerably
extended the draft:
>  - Further SHA-2 based HMAC authentication protocols have been
included to provide ore flexibility.
>  - A (short) section explains how to perform key change and key
localization with these protocols
>  - A MIB definition has been added.
>
> URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
> Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp/
> Htmlized:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This memo specifies new optional HMAC-SHA-2 authentication
protocols
>    for the User-based Security Model (USM) for SNMPv3 defined in RFC
>    3414.
>
>
> Due to the extension of the draft to other SHA-2-based HMAC, I have
changed the draft name from
> draft-hmac-sha-256-128-usm-snmp
> to
> draft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp
> resulting in a reset of the version number (00).
>
> Is there interest in adoption of this draft by the WG?
>
> Johannes
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Ken Bannister <kb2ma@runbox.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] LLN monitoring/management software
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Hi,

we do have an open source SNMP implementation running on Contiki
supporting a draft version of the LOWPAN-MIB:

http://cnds.eecs.jacobs-university.de/software/contiki-snmp/
http://cnds.eecs.jacobs-university.de/the-6lowpan-mib-testbed/

We also have an implementation of a draft version of the RPL-MIB.

Some time ago, we worked on something we called 'NETCONF Light'
(implemented under Contiki) but NETCONF is somewhat difficult to
support on constrained devices. A mapping of RESTCONF to CoAP may make
more sense on constrained devices (but this right now more of an idea
than running code).

/js

On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:51:54PM -0400, Ken Bannister wrote:
> Is anyone aware of open source network monitoring/management
> software that has been extended to support a 6LoWPAN (802.15.4) LLN?
> I am casting a wide net, so SNMP, NETCONF, or some other interface
> is fine. I am interested in monitoring/management of link layer,
> RPL, and have an eye toward the work the 6TiSCH group is doing.
> 
> I have not found much myself, but here are a few related items/references:
> 
> * 6PANview, which is specific to LLNs [1]
> * "Management of the Internet of Things" presentation [2]
> * Recent drafts in opsawg that are collecting requirements and use
> cases on this subject
> 
> [1] http://www.ece.iisc.ernet.in/6panview/
> [2] http://cnds.eecs.jacobs-university.de/slides/2013-im-iot-management.pdf
> 
> Thanks,
> Ken Bannister
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Fri Mar 28 04:12:26 2014
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : An Overview of Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) Tools
        Authors         : Tal Mizrahi
                          Nurit Sprecher
                          Elisa Bellagamba
                          Yaacov Weingarten
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-16.txt
	Pages           : 51
	Date            : 2014-03-28

Abstract:
   Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) is a general term
   that refers to a toolset for fault detection and isolation, and for
   performance measurement. Over the years various OAM tools have been
   defined for various layers in the protocol stack.

   This document summarizes some of the OAM tools defined in the IETF in
   the context of IP unicast, MPLS, MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP),
   pseudowires, and TRILL. This document focuses on tools for detecting
   and isolating failures in networks and for performance monitoring.
   Control and management aspects of OAM are outside the scope of this
   document. Network repair functions such as Fast Reroute (FRR) and
   protection switching, which are often triggered by OAM protocols, are
   also out of the scope of this document.

   The target audience of this document includes network equipment
   vendors, network operators and standards development organizations,
   and can be used as an index to some of the main OAM tools defined in
   the IETF. This document provides a brief description of each of the
   OAM tools in the IETF. At the end of the document a list of the OAM
   toolsets and a list of the OAM functions are presented as a summary.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-16

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-oam-overview-16


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 12:24:08 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] AD review of draft-ietf-opsawg-large-flow-load-balancing (draft response)
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Hi Anoop, Ramki,

A gentle reminder.

Regards, Benoit
> Hi Anoop,
>
> Please post a new draft version, and I'll review the diffs.
> Some more answers in-line.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> Hi Benoit,
>>
>> Thanks for the detailed and careful review.  Comments inline.
>>
>> Anoop
>>
>> ====
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com 
>> <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Dear authors,
>>
>>     Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-opsawg-large-flow-load-balancing
>>
>>     - Section 1:
>>         Networks extensively use link aggregation groups (LAG) [802.1AX] and
>>         equal cost multi-paths (ECMP) [RFC 2991] as techniques for capacity
>>         scaling. For the problems addressed by this document, network traffic
>>         can be predominantly categorized into two traffic types: long-lived
>>         large flows and other flows.
>>
>>         ...
>>
>>         This draft describes mechanisms for optimal LAG/ECMP component link
>>         utilization while using hash-based techniques. The mechanisms
>>         comprise the following steps -- recognizing_large flows_  in a router;
>>         and assigning the large flows to specific LAG/ECMP component links or
>>         redistributing the small flows when a component link on the router is
>>         congested.
>>
>>         It is useful to keep in mind that in typical use cases for this
>>         mechanism the_large flows_  are those that consume a significant amount
>>         of bandwidth on a link, e.g. greater than 5% of link bandwidth.  The
>>         number of such flows would necessarily be fairly small, e.g. on the
>>         order of 10's or 100's per LAG/ECMP.  In other words, the number of
>>        _  large flows_  is NOT expected to be on the order of millions of flows.
>>         Examples of such large flows would be IPsec tunnels in service
>>         provider backbone networks or storage backup traffic in data center
>>         networks.
>>
>>     3 instances of "large flows": do you mean "long-lived large flows"?
>>     If not, why do you make a distinction between long-lived large
>>     flows and other flows in the first paragraph?
>>     I eventually understood the source of confusion when I read the
>>     terminology section:
>>         Large flow(s): long-lived large flow(s)
>>
>>     Either use capitalized term in the Intro section (actually
>>     throughout the doc.) so that we understand that the term is
>>     defined somewhere, or make it clear in the intro that large
>>     flow(s) = long-lived large flow(s)
>>
>>
>> Yes, they are all referring to long-lived large flows.  We will 
>> change the early part of Section 1 to clarify that long-lived large 
>> flows are, thereafter in the document, referred to as large flows.
> Or replace large flow by long-lived flow were it makes sense in the draft.
>>
>>     -
>>
>>         This document presents improved load distribution techniques based on
>>         the large flow awareness.
>>
>>     Improved compared to?
>>
>>
>> Improved compared to static hash-based distribution techniques that 
>> do not account for the bandwidth of the flows.  Will reword as follows:
>>
>> "This document presents mechanisms for improving the load 
>> distribution problem resulting from stateless hashing as seen in the 
>> above example."
> ok
>>
>>     -
>>     In several places, starting with the title and abstract, you
>>     speak about mechanisms (plural).
>>     However, looking at section 4.2, it seems that you propose a
>>     single mechanism? Or maybe you consider 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 as
>>     different mechanisms?
>>
>>
>> The title of 4.2 is perhaps misleading and should just be 
>> "Operational Overview."
> ok
>>  Otherwise the rest of the draft discusses several mechanisms 
>> (multiple choices for large flow identification, and multiple choices 
>> for rebalancing).
>>
>>     -
>>
>>     Step 3) On receiving the alert about the congested component link,
>>         the operator, through a central management entity, finds the large
>>         flows mapped to that component link and the LAG/ECMP group to which
>>         the component link belongs.
>>
>>         Step 4) The operator can choose to rebalance the large flows on
>>         lightly loaded component links of the LAG/ECMP group or redistribute
>>         the small flows on the congested link to other component links of the
>>         group. The operator, through a central management entity, can choose
>>         one of the following actions:
>>
>>            1) Indicate specific large flows to rebalance;
>>
>>            2) Have the router decide the best large flows to rebalance;
>>
>>            3) Have the router redistribute all the small flows on the
>>         congested link to other component links in the group.
>>
>>     "Indicate specific large flows to rebalance", "through a central
>>     management entity", what you describe is basically traffic
>>     engineering.
>>     Other the other hand, for 2) and 3), why do you need a central
>>     management entity?
>>
>>
>> The assumption was that the router is controlled by a central 
>> management entity for the purpose of this function, but that is 
>> clearly not a requirement.  The text will be modified to mention that 
>> a central management entity may be used (i.e. not required).
> Ok.
>>
>>     -
>>
>>         A number of routers support sampling techniques such as sFlow [sFlow-
>>         v5, sFlow-LAG], PSAMP [RFC 5475] and NetFlow Sampling [RFC 3954].
>>         For the purpose of large flow identification, sampling must be
>>         enabled on all of the egress ports in the router where such
>>         measurements are desired.
>>
>>     I don't understand the second sentence.
>>     One way to read this is:  sampling must be _enabled _on all of
>>     the egress ports where such measurements are desired.
>>         Ok, this is an obvious statement. If the measurements are
>>     desired, enable them
>>
>>
>> Yes,
> ok please clarify the text.
>>
>>     Or maybe you want to say: _sampling _must be enabled on all of
>>     the egress ports where such measurements are desired.
>>         This is a false statement: if you have the choice between
>>     sampling and non sampling, use non sampling measurements.
>>     Or maybe you want to say: sampling must be enabled on _all _of
>>     the egress ports where such measurements are desired.
>>         This is a false statement: if I have ECMP on 2 links, and
>>     only one of them can't do non sampling, then we should not force
>>         sampling on both links.
>>     You see, I'm confused.
>>
>>     You miss a couple of key messages:
>>     - if unsampled measurements are available, use those.
>>     - egress means where LAG/ECMP are enabled (this is important for
>>     the paragraph starting with "If egress sampling is not available,
>>     ingress sampling can suffice since the central management entity
>>     use")
>>
>>
>> We were not intending to discuss a mix sampling and non-sampling 
>> interfaces in the same router, but this is a reasonable point and it 
>> will be clarified (i.e. we will state that it's possible to mix 
>> sampled and non sampled interfaces as long as the function of large 
>> flow detection/identification can be performed).
>>
>>
>>     -
>>
>>         If egress sampling is not available, ingress sampling can suffice
>>         since the central management entity used by the sampling technique
>>         typically has multi-node visibility and can use the samples from an
>>         immediately downstream node to make measurements for egress traffic
>>         at the local node.
>>
>>     It's not clear if "ingress" means the ingress interface of the
>>     router itself, or the ingress interface of the downstream router.
>>     A drawing is required.
>>     Both options are possible:
>>         1. ingress interfaces on the router where LAG/ECMP is initiated
>>             flow monitoring must be enabled on all ingress interfaces
>>             flow monitoring must have a way to know the egress interfaces
>>     2. ingress interfaces of the downstream router
>>             only work for LAG or ECMP single hop
>>             ingress interfaces = all components from LAG/ECMP
>>     (multiple ifIndex, typically)
>>
>>
>> What we meant here was that ingress sampling would have to be enable 
>> on the downstream device (hence the central management entity must 
>> come into play to identify large flows).
> I still believe that a drawing would clarify things.
>>
>>
>>     this entire section 4.3.3 needs some improvements
>>
>>
>>     -
>>     On one side, you wrote "Specific algorithms for placement of
>>     large flows are out of scope of this document.". On the other
>>     side, "The following parameters are required the configuration of
>>     _this_ feature". It seems contradictory.
>>     It's unclear why you need the following parameter:
>>
>>           .  Imbalance threshold: the difference between the utilization of
>>              the least utilized and most utilized component links.  Expressed
>>              as a percentage of link speed.
>>
>>     Also, does ECMP/LAG always require equivalent link speed for their components?
>>
>> The imbalance threshold is a measure of how much imbalance one is 
>> willing to tolerate before taking the hit of potential packet 
>> reordering in some flows.  Will clarify.
>>
>> Thanks for catching the issue with link speed.  While in most cases 
>> speeds are consistent, there may be the case of composite links which 
>> combine links of different speeds (actually permitted by 802.1AX), so 
>> we will provide a generalized formula for the imbalance threshold 
>> which takes into account the individual speeds of each of the 
>> component links.
>>
>>       
>>     -
>>     5.2. System Configuration and Identification Parameters
>>
>>           .  IP address: The IP address of a specific router that the
>>              feature is being configured on, or that the large flow placement
>>              is being applied to.
>>
>>           .  LAG ID: Identifies the LAG. The LAG ID may be required when
>>              configuring this feature (to apply a specific set of large flow
>>              identification parameters to the LAG) and will be required when
>>              specifying flow placement to achieve the desired rebalancing.
>>
>>           .  Component Link ID: Identifies the component link within a LAG.
>>              This is required when specifying flow placement to achieve the
>>              desired rebalancing.
>>
>>     Nothing regarding ECMP?
>>
>>
>> Initially we were more focused on getting this done for LAG, but then 
>> we completely overlooked ECMP.  5.2, 5.3, and 5.4 would probably 
>> benefit from a bit of clean-up as follows:
>>
>> Add the following to 5.2:
>>
>> ECMP group: Identifies a particular ECMP group.
>>
>> ECMP nexthop: Identifies a particular nexthop within an ECMP group.
>>
>> Add the following line to the end of section 5.3.
>>
>> When using ECMP, the nexthop within an ECMP group is used to identify 
>> the component link for placing the large flow.
>>
>> Add the following to the end of Section 5.4.
>>
>> When using ECMP, the ECMP group and the corresponding Nexthops along 
>> with the percentage of traffic to be assigned to each Nexthop is 
>> required.  Finally it is also possible that an ECMP Nexthop itself 
>> comprises a LAG in which case both the Nexthop and the LAG Component 
>> ID would need to be specified, and the weights of both the Nexthop's 
>> within the ECMP Group and the Component Links within the LAG would 
>> need to be adjusted.
> Ok.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>>
>>
>>     -
>>
>>         For high speed links, the etherStatsHighCapacityTable MIB [RFC 3273]
>>         can be used.
>>
>>     Well, only for ethernet.
>>
>> Will clarify that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     EDITORIAL:
>>     -
>>     figure 2
>>
>>     OLD:
>>
>>                        +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>>                        |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |  (R1)    | ->     |   (R2)  |
>>
>>     NEW:
>>
>>                        +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>>                        |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |  (R1)     | ->     |   (R2)    |
>>
>>
>>
>> Will fix.
>>
>>
>>     -  The indentation in section 2 is not correct
>>
>>
>> Will fix.
>>
>>
>>     - "For tunneling protocols like GRE, VXLAN, NVGRE, STT, etc.,"
>>     You need to expand and provide references.
>>
>> Will provide references.  What do mean by expand -- just expand the 
>> acronyms (already in the acronym section) or something else?
>>
>>     - a PBR rule
>>     Expand.
>>
>> OK
>>
>>     -
>>     OLD:
>>
>>                        +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>>                        |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>>                        |           |        |           |
>>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |  (R1)    | ->     |   (R2)  |
>>                        |        (2)|--------|(2)        |
>>
>>     NEW:
>>                        +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>>                        |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>>                        |           |        |           |
>>                        |           | ===>   |           |
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |           | ->     |           |
>>                        |  (R1)     | ->     |   (R2)    |
>>                        |        (2)|--------|(2)        |
>>
>> Will fix.
>>
>>     -
>>     OLD:
>>     The IPFIX information model [RFC 7011]
>>     NEW:
>>     The IPFIX information model [RFC 7012]
>>
>> Will fix.
>>
>>     Regards, Benoit
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Anoop, Ramki,<br>
      <br>
      A gentle reminder.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:531AF602.5070400@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Anoop,<br>
        <br>
        Please post a new draft version, and I'll review the diffs.<br>
        Some more answers in-line.<br>
        <br>
        Regards, Benoit<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
        <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
          charset=ISO-8859-1">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>
                        <div class="h5">
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Hi Benoit,<br>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Thanks for the detailed and careful
                              review. &nbsp;Comments inline.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>Anoop</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>====</div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra"> <br>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">
                          <div>
                            <div class="h5">
                              <div>
                                <div>On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 7:55 AM,
                                  Benoit Claise <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                                      target="_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000">
                                      <pre>Dear authors,

Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-opsawg-large-flow-load-balancing

- Section 1:
   Networks extensively use link aggregation groups (LAG) [802.1AX] and
   equal cost multi-paths (ECMP) [RFC 2991] as techniques for capacity
   scaling. For the problems addressed by this document, network traffic
   can be predominantly categorized into two traffic types: long-lived
   large flows and other flows. 

   ...

   This draft describes mechanisms for optimal LAG/ECMP component link
   utilization while using hash-based techniques. The mechanisms
   comprise the following steps -- recognizing <u>large flows</u> in a router;
   and assigning the large flows to specific LAG/ECMP component links or
   redistributing the small flows when a component link on the router is
   congested.

   It is useful to keep in mind that in typical use cases for this
   mechanism the <u>large flows</u> are those that consume a significant amount
   of bandwidth on a link, e.g. greater than 5% of link bandwidth.  The
   number of such flows would necessarily be fairly small, e.g. on the
   order of 10's or 100's per LAG/ECMP.  In other words, the number of
  <u> large flows</u> is NOT expected to be on the order of millions of flows.
   Examples of such large flows would be IPsec tunnels in service
   provider backbone networks or storage backup traffic in data center
   networks.

</pre>
                                      3 instances of "large flows": do
                                      you mean "long-lived large flows"?<br>
                                      If not, why do you make a
                                      distinction between long-lived
                                      large flows and other flows in the
                                      first paragraph?<br>
                                      I eventually understood the source
                                      of confusion when I read the
                                      terminology section:<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Large flow(s): long-lived
                                      large flow(s)<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Either use capitalized term in the
                                      Intro section (actually throughout
                                      the doc.) so that we understand
                                      that the term is defined
                                      somewhere, or make it clear in the
                                      intro that large flow(s) =
                                      long-lived large flow(s)<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>Yes, they are all referring to
                                    long-lived large flows. &nbsp;We will
                                    change the early part of Section 1
                                    to clarify that long-lived large
                                    flows are, thereafter in the
                                    document, referred to as large
                                    flows.</div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      Or replace large flow by long-lived flow were it makes sense in
      the draft.<br>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
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                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> -<br>
                                      <pre>   This document presents improved load distribution techniques based on
   the large flow awareness. </pre>
                                      Improved compared to?<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>Improved compared to static
                                    hash-based distribution techniques
                                    that do not account for the
                                    bandwidth of the flows. &nbsp;Will reword
                                    as follows:</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  "This document presents mechanisms for
                                  improving the load distribution
                                  problem resulting from stateless
                                  hashing as seen in the above example."</div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      ok<br>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
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                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> -<br>
                                      In several places, starting with
                                      the title and abstract, you speak
                                      about mechanisms (plural).<br>
                                      However, looking at section 4.2,
                                      it seems that you propose a single
                                      mechanism? Or maybe you consider
                                      4.1, 4.2, 4.3 as different
                                      mechanisms?<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>The title of 4.2 is perhaps
                                misleading and should just be
                                "Operational Overview." </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      ok<br>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
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                              <div>&nbsp;Otherwise the rest of the draft
                                discusses several mechanisms (multiple
                                choices for large flow identification,
                                and multiple choices for rebalancing).</div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div class="h5">
                                <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    -<br>
                                    <pre>Step 3) On receiving the alert about the congested component link,
   the operator, through a central management entity, finds the large
   flows mapped to that component link and the LAG/ECMP group to which
   the component link belongs.

   Step 4) The operator can choose to rebalance the large flows on
   lightly loaded component links of the LAG/ECMP group or redistribute
   the small flows on the congested link to other component links of the
   group. The operator, through a central management entity, can choose
   one of the following actions:

      1) Indicate specific large flows to rebalance;

      2) Have the router decide the best large flows to rebalance;

      3) Have the router redistribute all the small flows on the
   congested link to other component links in the group.

</pre>
                                    "Indicate specific large flows to
                                    rebalance", "through a central
                                    management entity", what you
                                    describe is basically traffic
                                    engineering. <br>
                                    Other the other hand, for 2) and 3),
                                    why do you need a central management
                                    entity?<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>The assumption was that the router is
                              controlled by a central management entity
                              for the purpose of this function, but that
                              is clearly not a requirement. &nbsp;The text
                              will be modified to mention that a central
                              management entity may be used (i.e. not
                              required).</div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      Ok.<br>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
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                          <div>
                            <div>&nbsp;</div>
                          </div>
                          <div class="">
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                              style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> -
                                <div><br>
                                  <pre>   A number of routers support sampling techniques such as sFlow [sFlow-
   v5, sFlow-LAG], PSAMP [RFC 5475] and NetFlow Sampling [RFC 3954].
   For the purpose of large flow identification, sampling must be
   enabled on all of the egress ports in the router where such
   measurements are desired.</pre>
                                  I don't understand the second
                                  sentence.<br>
                                  One way to read this is:&nbsp; sampling
                                  must be <u> enabled </u>on all of
                                  the egress ports where such
                                  measurements are desired. <br>
                                  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, this is an obvious statement.
                                  If the measurements are desired,
                                  enable them<br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Yes,</div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      ok please clarify the text.<br>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
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                          <div class="">
                            <div>
                              <div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                  Or maybe you want to say: <u>sampling
                                  </u>must be enabled on all of the
                                  egress ports where such measurements
                                  are desired. <br>
                                  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is a false statement: if you
                                  have the choice between sampling and
                                  non sampling, use non sampling
                                  measurements.<br>
                                  Or maybe you want to say: sampling
                                  must be enabled on <u>all </u>of the
                                  egress ports where such measurements
                                  are desired. <br>
                                  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is a false statement: if I
                                  have ECMP on 2 links, and only one of
                                  them can't do non sampling, then we
                                  should not force<br>
                                  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sampling on both links.<br>
                                  You see, I'm confused.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  You miss a couple of key messages:<br>
                                  - if unsampled measurements are
                                  available, use those.<br>
                                  - egress means where LAG/ECMP are
                                  enabled (this is important for the
                                  paragraph starting with "If egress
                                  sampling is not available, ingress
                                  sampling can suffice since the central
                                  management entity use")<br>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>We were not intending to discuss a mix
                            sampling and non-sampling interfaces in the
                            same router, but this is a reasonable point
                            and it will be clarified (i.e. we will state
                            that it's possible to mix sampled and non
                            sampled interfaces as long as the function
                            of large flow detection/identification can
                            be performed).</div>
                          <div>
                            <div class="h5">
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"><br>
                                      -<br>
                                      <pre>   If egress sampling is not available, ingress sampling can suffice
   since the central management entity used by the sampling technique
   typically has multi-node visibility and can use the samples from an
   immediately downstream node to make measurements for egress traffic
   at the local node.  

</pre>
                                      It's not clear if "ingress" means
                                      the ingress interface of the
                                      router itself, or the ingress
                                      interface of the downstream
                                      router.<br>
                                      A drawing is required.<br>
                                      Both options are possible:<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1. ingress interfaces on the
                                      router where LAG/ECMP is initiated<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; flow monitoring must be
                                      enabled on all ingress interfaces<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; flow monitoring must have
                                      a way to know the egress
                                      interfaces<br>
                                      2. ingress interfaces of the
                                      downstream router<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; only work for LAG or ECMP
                                      single hop<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ingress interfaces = all
                                      components from LAG/ECMP (multiple
                                      ifIndex, typically) &nbsp;</div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>What we meant here was that
                                    ingress sampling would have to be
                                    enable on the downstream device
                                    (hence the central management entity
                                    must come into play to identify
                                    large flows).&nbsp; <br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      I still believe that a drawing would clarify things.<br>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
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                                <div>
                                  <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> <br>
                                      this entire section 4.3.3 needs
                                      some improvements<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> <br>
                                      -<br>
                                      On one side, you wrote "Specific
                                      algorithms for placement of large
                                      flows are out of scope of this
                                      document.". On the other side,
                                      "The following parameters are
                                      required the configuration of <u>this</u>
                                      feature". It seems contradictory.<br>
                                      It's unclear why you need the
                                      following parameter:<br>
                                      <br>
                                      <pre>     .  Imbalance threshold: the difference between the utilization of
        the least utilized and most utilized component links.  Expressed
        as a percentage of link speed.

Also, does ECMP/LAG always require equivalent link speed for their components?</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>The imbalance threshold is a
                                    measure of how much imbalance one is
                                    willing to tolerate before taking
                                    the hit of potential packet
                                    reordering in some flows. &nbsp;Will
                                    clarify. &nbsp;</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14.400002479553223px">Thanks

                              for catching the issue with link speed.
                              &nbsp;While in most cases speeds are
                              consistent, there may be the case of
                              composite links which combine links of
                              different speeds (actually permitted by
                              802.1AX), so we will provide a generalized
                              formula for the imbalance threshold which
                              takes into account the individual speeds
                              of each of the component links.&nbsp;</span><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div class="">
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                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    <pre> 
-
<span>5.2. System Configuration and Identification Parameters</span>

     .  IP address: The IP address of a specific router that the
        feature is being configured on, or that the large flow placement
        is being applied to.

     .  LAG ID: Identifies the LAG. The LAG ID may be required when
        configuring this feature (to apply a specific set of large flow
        identification parameters to the LAG) and will be required when
        specifying flow placement to achieve the desired rebalancing.

     .  Component Link ID: Identifies the component link within a LAG.
        This is required when specifying flow placement to achieve the
        desired rebalancing.

</pre>
                                    Nothing regarding ECMP? <br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>Initially we were more focused on
                                getting this done for LAG, but then we
                                completely overlooked ECMP. &nbsp;5.2, 5.3,
                                and 5.4 would probably benefit from a
                                bit of clean-up as follows:</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Add the following to 5.2:</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>ECMP group: Identifies a particular
                                ECMP group.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>ECMP nexthop: Identifies a particular
                                nexthop within an ECMP group.</div>
                              <div> <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Add the following line to the end of
                                section 5.3.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>When using ECMP, the nexthop within
                                an ECMP group is used to identify the
                                component link for placing the large
                                flow.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Add the following to the end of
                                Section 5.4.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>When using ECMP, the ECMP group and
                                the corresponding Nexthops along with
                                the percentage of traffic to be assigned
                                to each Nexthop is required. &nbsp;Finally it
                                is also possible that an ECMP Nexthop
                                itself comprises a LAG in which case
                                both the Nexthop and the LAG Component
                                ID would need to be specified, and the
                                weights of both the Nexthop's within the
                                ECMP Group and the Component Links
                                within the LAG would need to be
                                adjusted.<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      Ok.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com"
        type="cite">
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                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div> </div>
                              <div>
                                <div class="h5">
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> <br>
                                      -<br>
                                      <pre>   For high speed links, the etherStatsHighCapacityTable MIB [RFC 3273]
   can be used.

Well, only for ethernet.</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will clarify that.&nbsp;<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> <br>
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                      EDITORIAL:<br>
                                      - <br>
                                      figure 2<br>
                                      <br>
                                      OLD:<br>
                                      <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)    | -&gt;     |   (R2)  |</pre>
                                      NEW:<br>
                                      <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)     | -&gt;     |   (R2)    |</pre>
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will fix.</div>
                                  <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> <br>
                                      -&nbsp; The indentation in section 2 is
                                      not correct<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> <br>
                                      - "For tunneling protocols like
                                      GRE, VXLAN, NVGRE, STT, etc.,"<br>
                                      You need to expand and provide
                                      references.<br>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will provide references. &nbsp;What do
                                    mean by expand -- just expand the
                                    acronyms (already in the acronym
                                    section) or something else?&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000">
                                      <pre>- a PBR rule
Expand.</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>OK</div>
                              <div>
                                <div class="h5">
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> -<br>
                                      OLD:<br>
                                      <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           |        |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)    | -&gt;     |   (R2)  |
                  |        (2)|--------|(2)        |

NEW:
                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           |        |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)     | -&gt;     |   (R2)    |
                  |        (2)|--------|(2)        |

</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000">
                                      <pre>-
OLD:
The IPFIX information model [RFC 7011] 
NEW:
The IPFIX information model [RFC 7012] &nbsp;
</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                      text="#000000"> Regards, Benoit<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
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Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL wrote on 27.03.2014 17:46:
> On 3/27/14 10:23 , "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
>> ....a good model to follow, which Uri's suggestion does.
> 
> :-) Yep!

Ok, I will change names accordingly.

>> So my thinking would be either a MUST implement for one, or recommend
>> that all should be implemented, with a
>> recommended order to choose, or some such - just not the current wording.
> 
> I personally would be OK with this. One would be MUST, one or two would be
> SHOULD, the rest would be MAY in the given order.

I agree. As soon as we have agreed on the mandatory and recommended protocols, I will include these provisions.


>> As to MUST, this I-D will have to be Standards Track, not Informational,
>> in order to update SnmpAuthProtocols so the use of requirements language,
>> and the boiler plate thereon, is not an issue.
> 
> I'd have no problem with this RFC going Standards Track. Johannes?

No, and we have no choice anyway.


>> On Security, I have memories of discussions on the TLS list of the merits
>> of size and truncation.  One reference I have found is 'SHA-1 is being
>> deprecated' from 2008 from one 'Uri' - so I think something along those
>> lines worth
>> including by way of justification for this I-D (Suite B got a lot of
>> mentions around that time).
> 
> :-)  Oh yes. And the TLS list discussion is an echo of the former IPsec
> list discussion.
> 
> Not sure if it's a good idea to bring Suite B up at this time?

I'm confuded. Does Suite-B specify the truncation of HMACs?

> 
>> I have memories of an argument against the use of SHA-512, I think on the
>> grounds that the registers were not wide
>> enough and that the extra security did not justify the extra computation
>> required, but cannot find a reference for that.
> 
> I don't recall that, probably didn't care back then. In any case, (a) I
> don't think these arguments apply now, and (b) SHA512 would be only SHOULD
> if things go the way I'd like...
> 

I'm fine with SHA512 HMAC being only a SHOULD.

>> As to degree of truncation, I understand the argument in principle but do
>> not have the mathematics to take a view as to what is best.  I do note
>> that in 2006, it was suggested that the merit of truncation was to save
>> bandwidth in constrained environments - I don't know if that is now more
>> or less applicable.
> 
> As Hugo Krawczyk (who was the key contributor and participant in that
> discussion) recently confirmed, the MAIN reason for truncation was
> bandwidth saving - but cryptographers found that it also offers some
> benefits. 
> 
> IMHO, saving some bandwidth is always a good thing, because you can never
> have too much of it. :-)
> 
> Would like to hear from others on this subject, given that:
>  - truncation saves bandwidth;
>  - truncation improves resistance to key guessing attacks;
>  - truncation lowers resistance to birthday-paradox/digest-guessing
> attacks.

256 bit output length is enough to prevent birthday-paradox/digest-guessing attacks (which require n^(1/2) outputs),
thus I prefer HMAC256SHA512 over HMAC384SHA512. For SHA-256 the situation is different, as collecting 2^64 outputs is
not so completely unthinkable (albeit still not practical).

Thus, I suggest defining usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol as MUST, and usmHMAC256SHA512AuthProtocol as SHOULD.



>> So I would like to see more in the Security Considerations along these
>> lines with a target audience of non-cryptographers.
> 
> Johannes, would you put a few words there...?

Yes, I'll do that next week.



-- 
Johannes


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David Reid wrote on 25.03.2014 19:06:
> 
> I would prefer shrinking the number of choices and using the truncated 
> ones, although I don't feel strongly about that preference.

Please have a second look: all of them are truncated, they only differ in the extend of truncation. Which truncation
lengths do you prefer?




-- 
Johannes


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t.petch wrote on 27.03.2014 19:02:
> Some more red tape.
> 
> The copyright in the MIB module is 2004.

oops! Got me, I copied and modified that from RFC 3826.


> 
> You used the word 'SHALL' in s.3 which says to me that you need a
> reference to RFC2119 and the boilerplate associated with it.

Right, I'll will include reference to RFC 2119.

> 
> Normally, anything with a MIB Module in it contains standard MIB
> boilerplate about the standard management framework; but this MIB Module
> contains no objects, just identities, so does it need the boilerplate?
> I would say not, but RFC4181 says it does (which in turn drags in four
> more references)!  need guidance there.  You should at least include
> RFC2578 in the references since that appears in this MIB module.
> 
> I must re-read RFC4181 - I suspect that there is more in there to be
> added to this I-D.

I am not familiar with MIBs, thus I appreciate your and Uri's assistance. Isn't RFC 3826 a proper example how to do it?


-- 
Johannes


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On 3/28/14 9:21 , "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com> wrote:

>t.petch wrote on 27.03.2014 19:02:
>>Normally, anything with a MIB Module in it contains standard MIB
>> boilerplate about the standard management framework; but this MIB Module
>> contains no objects, just identities, so does it need the boilerplate?
>> I would say not, but RFC4181 says it does (which in turn drags in four
>> more references)!  need guidance there.  You should at least include
>> RFC2578 in the references since that appears in this MIB module.
>> 
>> I must re-read RFC4181 - I suspect that there is more in there to be
>> added to this I-D.
>
>I am not familiar with MIBs, thus I appreciate your and Uri's assistance.
>Isn't RFC 3826 a proper example how to do it?

I'm afraid this is out of my competence area. I've no clue regarding
boilerplates, and can help only with the actual MIB content (that ASN.1
stuff :).

Sorry!

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--B_3478847653_10082724--


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To: Johannes Merkle <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>, "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:39:03 -0400
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On 3/28/14 9:10 , "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com> wrote:

>>>On Security, I have memories of discussions on the TLS list of the
>>>merits
>>> of size and truncation.  One reference I have found is 'SHA-1 is being
>>> deprecated' from 2008 from one 'Uri' - so I think something along those
>>> lines worth including by way of justification for this I-D (Suite B
>>>got a lot of
>>> mentions around that time).
>> 
>> :-)  Oh yes. And the TLS list discussion is an echo of the former IPsec
>> list discussion.
>> 
>> Not sure if it's a good idea to bring Suite B up at this time?
>
>I'm confuded. Does Suite-B specify the truncation of HMACs?

No it does not, AFAIK. AFAIK, it specifies: (a) a block cipher, (b) a set
of hash-functions, (c) a digital signature algorithm, and (d) a key
agreement algorithm.

Truncation is probably specified in some of the RFCs produced *based on*
the Suite B spec. I thin they're in line with IPsec, i.e., HMAC-SHA1-96.

>I'm fine with SHA512 HMAC being only a SHOULD.

Let's have it then.

>256 bit output length is enough to prevent
>birthday-paradox/digest-guessing attacks (which require n^(1/2) outputs),

Yes, that means 256-bit output provides 2^128 digest-guessing resistance.


>thus I prefer HMAC256SHA512 over HMAC384SHA512.

I'm OK with it. I'm also OK with removing HMAC384SHA512 altogether, in
favor of HMAC256SHA512.

> For SHA-256 the situation is different, as collecting 2^64 outputs is
>not so completely unthinkable (albeit still not practical).

:-)

>Thus, I suggest defining usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol as MUST, and
>usmHMAC256SHA512AuthProtocol as SHOULD.

I'm OK with it.

>>>So I would like to see more in the Security Considerations along these
>>> lines with a target audience of non-cryptographers.
>> 
>> Johannes, would you put a few words there...?
>
>Yes, I'll do that next week.

:-)

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--B_3478847943_10114621--


From nobody Fri Mar 28 08:10:49 2014
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification fordraft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL wrote on 28.03.2014 15:39:
> Truncation is probably specified in some of the RFCs produced *based on*
> the Suite B spec. I thin they're in line with IPsec, i.e., HMAC-SHA1-96.
> 

It is specified in NIST SP 800-107rev1, Section 5.3.3



-- 
Johannes


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
To: "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>; <opsawg@ietf.org>
Cc: "Manfred Lochter" <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>; <uri@ll.mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 1:21 PM
> > t.petch wrote on 27.03.2014 19:02:
> > Some more red tape.
> >
> > The copyright in the MIB module is 2004.
>
> oops! Got me, I copied and modified that from RFC 3826.
>
> > You used the word 'SHALL' in s.3 which says to me that you need a
> > reference to RFC2119 and the boilerplate associated with it.
>
> Right, I'll will include reference to RFC 2119.
>
> >
> > Normally, anything with a MIB Module in it contains standard MIB
> > boilerplate about the standard management framework; but this MIB
Module
> > contains no objects, just identities, so does it need the
boilerplate?
> > I would say not, but RFC4181 says it does (which in turn drags in
four
> > more references)!  need guidance there.  You should at least include
> > RFC2578 in the references since that appears in this MIB module.
> >
> > I must re-read RFC4181 - I suspect that there is more in there to be
> > added to this I-D.
>
> I am not familiar with MIBs, thus I appreciate your and Uri's
assistance. Isn't RFC 3826 a proper example how to do it?

RFC3826 has not got a MIB module in it and so is not an exemplar for
that.  I have looked for a recent one that adds OBJECT-IDENTITY - as
opposed to OBJECT-TYPE - but cannot find one.  A good example of a
recent MIB module (with OBJECT-TYPE) that does conform is
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-6lo-lowpan-mib-00.txt

Sections 2 and 3 could be lifted for use here.

Section 7 applies when there are OBJECT-TYPE and so does not here but
Section 8 gives a partial template for IANA Considerations, for the
module registration but not for the entries in SnmpAuthProtocols.

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6353/
 defines an OBJECT-IDENTITY under snmpDomains while
  draft-ietf-isms-dtls-tm-09.txt
is what it was like beforehand (although I would have liked that I-D to
have spelt things out more clearly -  it is an exemplar but a not
terribly good one IMO).

Sorry if I confused you with my reference to Suite B.  It was a hot
topic around the time that I first saw SHA-2 discussed on the IETF lists
and so was cited as a motivation for moving to it (and stuck in my
mind).  That is probably history but government requirements for SHA-2
were another motivation - which is a post that Uri made many years ago,
in 2008 - and that I imagine is still current. At the same time, my
sense is that for the use to which MAC are used here, then MD5, although
weakened, is still good enough, ditto SHA, but that is very much a lay
opinion; I am sure that you know the field better than I.

Tom Petch


> Johannes


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From: Anoop Ghanwani <ghanwani@gmail.com>
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References: <CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com> <531AF602.5070400@cisco.com> <53355BD8.2030106@cisco.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] AD review of draft-ietf-opsawg-large-flow-load-balancing (draft response)
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Benoit,

We should have the new draft posted in a few days.

Anoop

> On Mar 28, 2014, at 4:24 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Anoop, Ramki,
>=20
> A gentle reminder.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
>> Hi Anoop,
>>=20
>> Please post a new draft version, and I'll review the diffs.
>> Some more answers in-line.
>>=20
>> Regards, Benoit
>>>=20
>>> Hi Benoit,
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for the detailed and careful review.  Comments inline.
>>>=20
>>> Anoop
>>>=20
>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrot=
e:
>>>> Dear authors,
>>>>=20
>>>> Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-opsawg-large-flow-load-balancing
>>>>=20
>>>> - Section 1:
>>>>    Networks extensively use link aggregation groups (LAG) [802.1AX] and=

>>>>    equal cost multi-paths (ECMP) [RFC 2991] as techniques for capacity
>>>>    scaling. For the problems addressed by this document, network traffi=
c
>>>>    can be predominantly categorized into two traffic types: long-lived
>>>>    large flows and other flows.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>    ...
>>>>=20
>>>>    This draft describes mechanisms for optimal LAG/ECMP component link
>>>>    utilization while using hash-based techniques. The mechanisms
>>>>    comprise the following steps -- recognizing large flows in a router;=

>>>>    and assigning the large flows to specific LAG/ECMP component links o=
r
>>>>    redistributing the small flows when a component link on the router i=
s
>>>>    congested.
>>>>=20
>>>>    It is useful to keep in mind that in typical use cases for this
>>>>    mechanism the large flows are those that consume a significant amoun=
t
>>>>    of bandwidth on a link, e.g. greater than 5% of link bandwidth.  The=

>>>>    number of such flows would necessarily be fairly small, e.g. on the
>>>>    order of 10's or 100's per LAG/ECMP.  In other words, the number of
>>>>    large flows is NOT expected to be on the order of millions of flows.=

>>>>    Examples of such large flows would be IPsec tunnels in service
>>>>    provider backbone networks or storage backup traffic in data center
>>>>    networks.
>>>>=20
>>>> 3 instances of "large flows": do                                       y=
ou mean "long-lived large flows"?
>>>> If not, why do you make a distinction between long-lived large flows an=
d other flows in the first paragraph?
>>>> I eventually understood the source of confusion when I read the termino=
logy section:
>>>>     Large flow(s): long-lived large flow(s)
>>>>=20
>>>> Either use capitalized term in the Intro section (actually throughout t=
he doc.) so that we understand that the term is defined somewhere, or make i=
t clear in the intro that large flow(s) =3D long-lived large flow(s)
>>>=20
>>> Yes, they are all referring to long-lived large flows.  We will change t=
he early part of Section 1 to clarify that long-lived large flows are, there=
after in the document, referred to as large flows.
>> Or replace large flow by long-lived flow were it makes sense in the draft=
.
>>>=20
>>>> -
>>>>    This document presents improved load distribution techniques based o=
n
>>>>    the large flow awareness.=20
>>>> Improved compared to?
>>>=20
>>> Improved compared to static hash-based distribution techniques that do n=
ot account for the bandwidth of the flows.  Will reword as follows:
>>>=20
>>> "This document presents mechanisms for improving the load distribution p=
roblem resulting from stateless hashing as seen in the above example."
>> ok
>>> =20
>>>> -
>>>> In several places, starting with the title and abstract, you speak abou=
t mechanisms (plural).
>>>> However, looking at section 4.2, it seems that you propose a single mec=
hanism? Or maybe you consider 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 as different mechanisms?
>>>=20
>>> The title of 4.2 is perhaps misleading and should just be "Operational O=
verview."
>> ok
>>>  Otherwise the rest of the draft discusses several mechanisms (multiple c=
hoices for large flow identification, and multiple choices for rebalancing).=

>>> =20
>>>> -
>>>> Step 3) On receiving the alert about the congested component link,
>>>>    the operator, through a central management entity, finds the large
>>>>    flows mapped to that component link and the LAG/ECMP group to which
>>>>    the component link belongs.
>>>>=20
>>>>    Step 4) The operator can choose to rebalance the large flows on
>>>>    lightly loaded component links of the LAG/ECMP group or redistribute=

>>>>    the small flows on the congested link to other component links of th=
e
>>>>    group. The operator, through a central management entity, can choose=

>>>>    one of the following actions:
>>>>=20
>>>>       1) Indicate specific large flows to rebalance;
>>>>=20
>>>>       2) Have the router decide the best large flows to rebalance;
>>>>=20
>>>>       3) Have the router redistribute all the small flows on the
>>>>    congested link to other component links in the group.
>>>>=20
>>>> "Indicate specific large flows to                                     r=
ebalance", "through a central management entity", what you describe is basic=
ally traffic engineering.=20
>>>> Other the other hand, for 2) and 3), why do you need a central manageme=
nt entity?
>>>=20
>>> The assumption was that the router is controlled by a central management=
 entity for the purpose of this function, but that                          =
     is clearly not a requirement.  The text will be modified to mention tha=
t a central management entity may be used (i.e. not required).
>> Ok.
>>> =20
>>>> -
>>>>=20
>>>>    A number of routers support sampling techniques such as sFlow [sFlow=
-
>>>>    v5, sFlow-LAG], PSAMP [RFC 5475] and NetFlow Sampling [RFC 3954].
>>>>    For the purpose of large flow identification, sampling must be
>>>>    enabled on all of the egress ports in the router where such
>>>>    measurements are desired.
>>>> I don't understand the second sentence.
>>>> One way to read this is:  sampling must be enabled on all of the egress=
 ports where such measurements are desired.=20
>>>>     Ok, this is an obvious statement. If the measurements are desired, e=
nable them
>>>=20
>>> Yes,
>> ok please clarify the text.
>>>  =20
>>>> Or maybe you want to say: sampling must be enabled on all of the egress=
 ports where such measurements are desired.=20
>>>>     This is a false statement: if you have the choice between sampling a=
nd non sampling, use non sampling measurements.
>>>> Or maybe you want to say: sampling must be enabled on all of the egress=
 ports where such measurements are desired.=20
>>>>     This is a false statement: if I have ECMP on 2 links, and only one o=
f them can't do non sampling, then we should not force
>>>>     sampling on both links.
>>>> You see, I'm confused.
>>>>=20
>>>> You miss a couple of key messages:
>>>> - if unsampled measurements are available, use those.
>>>> - egress means where LAG/ECMP are enabled (this is important for the pa=
ragraph starting with "If egress sampling is not available, ingress sampling=
 can suffice since the central management entity use")
>>>=20
>>> We were not intending to discuss a mix sampling and non-sampling interfa=
ces in the same router, but this is a reasonable point and it will be clarif=
ied (i.e. we will state that it's possible to mix sampled and non sampled in=
terfaces as long as the function                             of large flow d=
etection/identification can be performed).
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -
>>>>    If egress sampling is not available, ingress sampling can suffice
>>>>    since the central management entity used by the sampling technique
>>>>    typically has multi-node visibility and can use the samples from an
>>>>    immediately downstream node to make measurements for egress traffic
>>>>    at the local node. =20
>>>>=20
>>>> It's not clear if "ingress" means                                      =
 the ingress interface of the router itself, or the ingress interface of the=
 downstream router.
>>>> A drawing is required.
>>>> Both options are possible:
>>>>     1. ingress interfaces on the router where LAG/ECMP is initiated
>>>>         flow monitoring must be enabled on all ingress interfaces
>>>>         flow monitoring must have                                      =
 a way to know the egress interfaces
>>>> 2. ingress interfaces of the downstream router
>>>>         only work for LAG or ECMP single hop
>>>>         ingress interfaces =3D all components from LAG/ECMP (multiple i=
fIndex, typically) =20
>>>=20
>>> What we meant here was that ingress sampling would have to be enable on t=
he downstream device (hence the central management entity must come into pla=
y to identify large flows).=20
>> I still believe that a drawing would clarify things.
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> this entire section 4.3.3 needs some improvements
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> -
>>>> On one side, you wrote "Specific algorithms for placement of large flow=
s are out of scope of this document.". On the other side, "The following par=
ameters are required the configuration of this feature". It seems contradict=
ory.
>>>> It's unclear why you need the following parameter:
>>>>=20
>>>>      .  Imbalance threshold: the difference between the utilization of
>>>>         the least utilized and most utilized component links.  Expresse=
d
>>>>         as a percentage of link speed.
>>>>=20
>>>> Also, does ECMP/LAG always require equivalent link speed for their comp=
onents?
>>> The imbalance threshold is a measure of how much imbalance one is willin=
g to tolerate before taking the hit of potential packet reordering in some f=
lows.  Will clarify. =20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for catching the issue with link speed.  While in most cases spee=
ds are                               consistent, there may be the case of co=
mposite links which combine links of different speeds (actually permitted by=
 802.1AX), so we will provide a generalized formula for the imbalance thresh=
old which takes into account the individual speeds of each of the component l=
inks.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> -
>>>> 5.2. System Configuration and Identification Parameters
>>>>=20
>>>>      .  IP address: The IP address of a specific router that the
>>>>         feature is being configured on, or that the large flow placemen=
t
>>>>         is being applied to.
>>>>=20
>>>>      .  LAG ID: Identifies the LAG. The LAG ID may be required when
>>>>         configuring this feature (to apply a specific set of large flow=

>>>>         identification parameters to the LAG) and will be required when=

>>>>         specifying flow placement to achieve the desired rebalancing.
>>>>=20
>>>>      .  Component Link ID: Identifies the component link within a LAG.
>>>>         This is required when specifying flow placement to achieve the
>>>>         desired rebalancing.
>>>>=20
>>>> Nothing regarding ECMP?
>>>=20
>>> Initially we were more focused on getting this done for LAG, but then we=
 completely overlooked ECMP.  5.2, 5.3, and 5.4 would probably benefit from a=
 bit of clean-up as follows:
>>>=20
>>> Add the following to 5.2:
>>>=20
>>> ECMP group: Identifies a particular ECMP group.
>>>=20
>>> ECMP nexthop: Identifies a particular nexthop within an ECMP group.
>>>=20
>>> Add the following line to the end of section 5.3.
>>>=20
>>> When using ECMP, the nexthop within an ECMP group is used to identify th=
e component link for placing the large flow.
>>>=20
>>> Add the following to the end of Section 5.4.
>>>=20
>>> When using ECMP, the ECMP group and the corresponding Nexthops along wit=
h the percentage of traffic to be assigned to each Nexthop is required.  Fin=
ally it is also possible that an ECMP Nexthop itself comprises a LAG in whic=
h case both the Nexthop and the LAG Component ID would need to be specified,=
 and the weights of both the Nexthop's within the ECMP Group and the Compone=
nt Links within the LAG would need to be adjusted.
>> Ok.
>>=20
>> Regards, Benoit
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -
>>>>    For high speed links, the etherStatsHighCapacityTable MIB [RFC 3273]=

>>>>    can be used.
>>>>=20
>>>> Well, only for ethernet.
>>> Will clarify that.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> EDITORIAL:
>>>> -=20
>>>> figure 2
>>>>=20
>>>> OLD:
>>>>                   +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |           | =3D=3D=3D>   |           |
>>>>                   |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |  (R1)    | ->     |   (R2)  |
>>>> NEW:
>>>>                   +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |           | =3D=3D=3D>   |           |
>>>>                   |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |  (R1)     | ->     |   (R2)    |
>>> Will fix.
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> -  The indentation in section 2 is not correct
>>>=20
>>> Will fix.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> - "For tunneling protocols like GRE, VXLAN, NVGRE, STT, etc.,"
>>>> You need to expand and provide references.
>>> Will provide references.  What do                                     me=
an by expand -- just expand the acronyms (already in the acronym section) or=
 something else?=20
>>>> - a PBR rule
>>>> Expand.
>>>=20
>>> OK
>>>> -
>>>> OLD:
>>>>                   +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |           | =3D=3D=3D>   |           |
>>>>                   |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>>>>                   |           |        |           |
>>>>                   |           | =3D=3D=3D>   |           |
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |  (R1)    | ->     |   (R2)  |
>>>>                   |        (2)|--------|(2)        |
>>>>=20
>>>> NEW:
>>>>                   +-----------+ ->     +-----------+
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |           | =3D=3D=3D>   |           |
>>>>                   |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
>>>>                   |           |        |           |
>>>>                   |           | =3D=3D=3D>   |           |
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |           | ->     |           |
>>>>                   |  (R1)     | ->     |   (R2)    |
>>>>                   |        (2)|--------|(2)        |
>>>>=20
>>> Will fix.=20
>>>> -
>>>> OLD:
>>>> The IPFIX information model [RFC 7011]=20
>>>> NEW:
>>>> The IPFIX information model [RFC 7012] =20
>>> Will fix.=20
>>>> Regards, Benoit
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Benoit,</div><div><br></div><div>We should have the new draft posted in a few days.</div><div><br></div><div>Anoop<br></div><div><br>On Mar 28, 2014, at 4:24 AM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  
  
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Anoop, Ramki,<br>
      <br>
      A gentle reminder.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:531AF602.5070400@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Anoop,<br>
        <br>
        Please post a new draft version, and I'll review the diffs.<br>
        Some more answers in-line.<br>
        <br>
        Regards, Benoit<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
        <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
          charset=ISO-8859-1">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>
                        <div class="h5">
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Hi Benoit,<br>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Thanks for the detailed and careful
                              review. &nbsp;Comments inline.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>Anoop</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>====</div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra"> <br>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">
                          <div>
                            <div class="h5">
                              <div>
                                <div>On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 7:55 AM,
                                  Benoit Claise <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target="_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                      <pre>Dear authors,

Here is my AD review of draft-ietf-opsawg-large-flow-load-balancing

- Section 1:
   Networks extensively use link aggregation groups (LAG) [802.1AX] and
   equal cost multi-paths (ECMP) [RFC 2991] as techniques for capacity
   scaling. For the problems addressed by this document, network traffic
   can be predominantly categorized into two traffic types: long-lived
   large flows and other flows. 

   ...

   This draft describes mechanisms for optimal LAG/ECMP component link
   utilization while using hash-based techniques. The mechanisms
   comprise the following steps -- recognizing <u>large flows</u> in a router;
   and assigning the large flows to specific LAG/ECMP component links or
   redistributing the small flows when a component link on the router is
   congested.

   It is useful to keep in mind that in typical use cases for this
   mechanism the <u>large flows</u> are those that consume a significant amount
   of bandwidth on a link, e.g. greater than 5% of link bandwidth.  The
   number of such flows would necessarily be fairly small, e.g. on the
   order of 10's or 100's per LAG/ECMP.  In other words, the number of
  <u> large flows</u> is NOT expected to be on the order of millions of flows.
   Examples of such large flows would be IPsec tunnels in service
   provider backbone networks or storage backup traffic in data center
   networks.

</pre>
                                      3 instances of "large flows": do
                                      you mean "long-lived large flows"?<br>
                                      If not, why do you make a
                                      distinction between long-lived
                                      large flows and other flows in the
                                      first paragraph?<br>
                                      I eventually understood the source
                                      of confusion when I read the
                                      terminology section:<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Large flow(s): long-lived
                                      large flow(s)<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Either use capitalized term in the
                                      Intro section (actually throughout
                                      the doc.) so that we understand
                                      that the term is defined
                                      somewhere, or make it clear in the
                                      intro that large flow(s) =
                                      long-lived large flow(s)<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>Yes, they are all referring to
                                    long-lived large flows. &nbsp;We will
                                    change the early part of Section 1
                                    to clarify that long-lived large
                                    flows are, thereafter in the
                                    document, referred to as large
                                    flows.</div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      Or replace large flow by long-lived flow were it makes sense in
      the draft.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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                                  <div><br>
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> -<br>
                                      <pre>   This document presents improved load distribution techniques based on
   the large flow awareness. </pre>
                                      Improved compared to?<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>Improved compared to static
                                    hash-based distribution techniques
                                    that do not account for the
                                    bandwidth of the flows. &nbsp;Will reword
                                    as follows:</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  "This document presents mechanisms for
                                  improving the load distribution
                                  problem resulting from stateless
                                  hashing as seen in the above example."</div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
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      </blockquote>
      ok<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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                                  <div>&nbsp;</div>
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> -<br>
                                      In several places, starting with
                                      the title and abstract, you speak
                                      about mechanisms (plural).<br>
                                      However, looking at section 4.2,
                                      it seems that you propose a single
                                      mechanism? Or maybe you consider
                                      4.1, 4.2, 4.3 as different
                                      mechanisms?<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>The title of 4.2 is perhaps
                                misleading and should just be
                                "Operational Overview." </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      ok<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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                              <div>&nbsp;Otherwise the rest of the draft
                                discusses several mechanisms (multiple
                                choices for large flow identification,
                                and multiple choices for rebalancing).</div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div class="h5">
                                <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                    -<br>
                                    <pre>Step 3) On receiving the alert about the congested component link,
   the operator, through a central management entity, finds the large
   flows mapped to that component link and the LAG/ECMP group to which
   the component link belongs.

   Step 4) The operator can choose to rebalance the large flows on
   lightly loaded component links of the LAG/ECMP group or redistribute
   the small flows on the congested link to other component links of the
   group. The operator, through a central management entity, can choose
   one of the following actions:

      1) Indicate specific large flows to rebalance;

      2) Have the router decide the best large flows to rebalance;

      3) Have the router redistribute all the small flows on the
   congested link to other component links in the group.

</pre>
                                    "Indicate specific large flows to
                                    rebalance", "through a central
                                    management entity", what you
                                    describe is basically traffic
                                    engineering. <br>
                                    Other the other hand, for 2) and 3),
                                    why do you need a central management
                                    entity?<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>The assumption was that the router is
                              controlled by a central management entity
                              for the purpose of this function, but that
                              is clearly not a requirement. &nbsp;The text
                              will be modified to mention that a central
                              management entity may be used (i.e. not
                              required).</div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      Ok.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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                            <div>&nbsp;</div>
                          </div>
                          <div class="">
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                              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> -
                                <div><br>
                                  <pre>   A number of routers support sampling techniques such as sFlow [sFlow-
   v5, sFlow-LAG], PSAMP [RFC 5475] and NetFlow Sampling [RFC 3954].
   For the purpose of large flow identification, sampling must be
   enabled on all of the egress ports in the router where such
   measurements are desired.</pre>
                                  I don't understand the second
                                  sentence.<br>
                                  One way to read this is:&nbsp; sampling
                                  must be <u> enabled </u>on all of
                                  the egress ports where such
                                  measurements are desired. <br>
                                  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, this is an obvious statement.
                                  If the measurements are desired,
                                  enable them<br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Yes,</div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      ok please clarify the text.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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                            <div>
                              <div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
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                                  Or maybe you want to say: <u>sampling
                                  </u>must be enabled on all of the
                                  egress ports where such measurements
                                  are desired. <br>
                                  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is a false statement: if you
                                  have the choice between sampling and
                                  non sampling, use non sampling
                                  measurements.<br>
                                  Or maybe you want to say: sampling
                                  must be enabled on <u>all </u>of the
                                  egress ports where such measurements
                                  are desired. <br>
                                  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is a false statement: if I
                                  have ECMP on 2 links, and only one of
                                  them can't do non sampling, then we
                                  should not force<br>
                                  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sampling on both links.<br>
                                  You see, I'm confused.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  You miss a couple of key messages:<br>
                                  - if unsampled measurements are
                                  available, use those.<br>
                                  - egress means where LAG/ECMP are
                                  enabled (this is important for the
                                  paragraph starting with "If egress
                                  sampling is not available, ingress
                                  sampling can suffice since the central
                                  management entity use")<br>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>We were not intending to discuss a mix
                            sampling and non-sampling interfaces in the
                            same router, but this is a reasonable point
                            and it will be clarified (i.e. we will state
                            that it's possible to mix sampled and non
                            sampled interfaces as long as the function
                            of large flow detection/identification can
                            be performed).</div>
                          <div>
                            <div class="h5">
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>
                                      -<br>
                                      <pre>   If egress sampling is not available, ingress sampling can suffice
   since the central management entity used by the sampling technique
   typically has multi-node visibility and can use the samples from an
   immediately downstream node to make measurements for egress traffic
   at the local node.  

</pre>
                                      It's not clear if "ingress" means
                                      the ingress interface of the
                                      router itself, or the ingress
                                      interface of the downstream
                                      router.<br>
                                      A drawing is required.<br>
                                      Both options are possible:<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1. ingress interfaces on the
                                      router where LAG/ECMP is initiated<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; flow monitoring must be
                                      enabled on all ingress interfaces<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; flow monitoring must have
                                      a way to know the egress
                                      interfaces<br>
                                      2. ingress interfaces of the
                                      downstream router<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; only work for LAG or ECMP
                                      single hop<br>
                                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ingress interfaces = all
                                      components from LAG/ECMP (multiple
                                      ifIndex, typically) &nbsp;</div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>What we meant here was that
                                    ingress sampling would have to be
                                    enable on the downstream device
                                    (hence the central management entity
                                    must come into play to identify
                                    large flows).&nbsp; <br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      I still believe that a drawing would clarify things.<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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                                  <div>&nbsp;</div>
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                                      this entire section 4.3.3 needs
                                      some improvements<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                                      -<br>
                                      On one side, you wrote "Specific
                                      algorithms for placement of large
                                      flows are out of scope of this
                                      document.". On the other side,
                                      "The following parameters are
                                      required the configuration of <u>this</u>
                                      feature". It seems contradictory.<br>
                                      It's unclear why you need the
                                      following parameter:<br>
                                      <br>
                                      <pre>     .  Imbalance threshold: the difference between the utilization of
        the least utilized and most utilized component links.  Expressed
        as a percentage of link speed.

Also, does ECMP/LAG always require equivalent link speed for their components?</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>The imbalance threshold is a
                                    measure of how much imbalance one is
                                    willing to tolerate before taking
                                    the hit of potential packet
                                    reordering in some flows. &nbsp;Will
                                    clarify. &nbsp;</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14.400002479553223px">Thanks

                              for catching the issue with link speed.
                              &nbsp;While in most cases speeds are
                              consistent, there may be the case of
                              composite links which combine links of
                              different speeds (actually permitted by
                              802.1AX), so we will provide a generalized
                              formula for the imbalance threshold which
                              takes into account the individual speeds
                              of each of the component links.&nbsp;</span><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div class="">
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                                    <pre> 
-
<span>5.2. System Configuration and Identification Parameters</span>

     .  IP address: The IP address of a specific router that the
        feature is being configured on, or that the large flow placement
        is being applied to.

     .  LAG ID: Identifies the LAG. The LAG ID may be required when
        configuring this feature (to apply a specific set of large flow
        identification parameters to the LAG) and will be required when
        specifying flow placement to achieve the desired rebalancing.

     .  Component Link ID: Identifies the component link within a LAG.
        This is required when specifying flow placement to achieve the
        desired rebalancing.

</pre>
                                    Nothing regarding ECMP? <br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>Initially we were more focused on
                                getting this done for LAG, but then we
                                completely overlooked ECMP. &nbsp;5.2, 5.3,
                                and 5.4 would probably benefit from a
                                bit of clean-up as follows:</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Add the following to 5.2:</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>ECMP group: Identifies a particular
                                ECMP group.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>ECMP nexthop: Identifies a particular
                                nexthop within an ECMP group.</div>
                              <div> <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Add the following line to the end of
                                section 5.3.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>When using ECMP, the nexthop within
                                an ECMP group is used to identify the
                                component link for placing the large
                                flow.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Add the following to the end of
                                Section 5.4.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>When using ECMP, the ECMP group and
                                the corresponding Nexthops along with
                                the percentage of traffic to be assigned
                                to each Nexthop is required. &nbsp;Finally it
                                is also possible that an ECMP Nexthop
                                itself comprises a LAG in which case
                                both the Nexthop and the LAG Component
                                ID would need to be specified, and the
                                weights of both the Nexthop's within the
                                ECMP Group and the Component Links
                                within the LAG would need to be
                                adjusted.<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      Ok.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CA+-tSzxDpD2V7Q15Jjgzz2A+d5Gn_92YQ-1_Zvx2AP=s5AWpxA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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                            <div>
                              <div> </div>
                              <div>
                                <div class="h5">
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                                      -<br>
                                      <pre>   For high speed links, the etherStatsHighCapacityTable MIB [RFC 3273]
   can be used.

Well, only for ethernet.</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will clarify that.&nbsp;<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                      EDITORIAL:<br>
                                      - <br>
                                      figure 2<br>
                                      <br>
                                      OLD:<br>
                                      <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)    | -&gt;     |   (R2)  |</pre>
                                      NEW:<br>
                                      <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)     | -&gt;     |   (R2)    |</pre>
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will fix.</div>
                                  <div>&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                                      -&nbsp; The indentation in section 2 is
                                      not correct<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <br>
                                      - "For tunneling protocols like
                                      GRE, VXLAN, NVGRE, STT, etc.,"<br>
                                      You need to expand and provide
                                      references.<br>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will provide references. &nbsp;What do
                                    mean by expand -- just expand the
                                    acronyms (already in the acronym
                                    section) or something else?&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                      <pre>- a PBR rule
Expand.</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>OK</div>
                              <div>
                                <div class="h5">
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> -<br>
                                      OLD:<br>
                                      <pre>                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           |        |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)    | -&gt;     |   (R2)  |
                  |        (2)|--------|(2)        |

NEW:
                  +-----------+ -&gt;     +-----------+
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |        (1)|--------|(1)        |
                  |           |        |           |
                  |           | ===&gt;   |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |           | -&gt;     |           |
                  |  (R1)     | -&gt;     |   (R2)    |
                  |        (2)|--------|(2)        |

</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                      <pre>-
OLD:
The IPFIX information model [RFC 7011] 
NEW:
The IPFIX information model [RFC 7012] &nbsp;
</pre>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>Will fix.&nbsp;</div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Regards, Benoit<br>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  

</div></blockquote></body></html>
--Apple-Mail-41F135F7-E928-475A-BC61-B2132AED4F46--


From nobody Fri Mar 28 12:39:09 2014
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> > I would prefer shrinking the number of choices and using the truncated 
> > ones, although I don't feel strongly about that preference.
> 
> Please have a second look: all of them are truncated, they only differ in the extend of truncation. Which truncation
> lengths do you prefer?
> 

I prefer not having too many choices, but I really don't have a strong
opinion on which ones are chosen. In the end, I'll implement everything
that is in the final spec, whether optional or mandatory.

-David Reid


From nobody Fri Mar 28 13:21:41 2014
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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 16:21:31 -0400
From: Tom Taylor <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com>
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Interest in a YANG module to manage SYSLOG?
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While working on draft-ietf-behave-syslog-nat-logging, I noted a number 
of management requirements for SYSLOG that are really independent of the 
particular application being logged. These include, for example, a list 
of events for which the operator wants logging suppressed, or 
specifications for rate-limiting specific event reports. For more 
details see Section 6, particularly sub-section 6.1.3 of the draft cited 
above.

Would there be any interest in implementing or deploying a YANG module 
to provide the necessary controls if I created one?

Tom Taylor


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Hi,

RFC4181 has guidelines for authors and reviewers of MIB documents.
It has a lot of guidance about how to organize your document, and what =
boilerplate to use.
It also contains a lot of guidance about writing a MIB.

Tools.ietf.org has templates for documents containing a MIB module.
There is a plaintext template, a plaintext template with guidance, and =
an xml2rfc template with guidance.
The templates were developed by/with the MIB Doctors, and the guidance =
is largely based on RFC4181 guidance about a document that contains a =
MIB module.
The templates do NOT contain guidance on how to write a MIB.
I authored the templates and haven't touched them in years, but RFC4181 =
hasn't changed either, so the templates probably still contain fairly =
good guidance on the document organization.
The boilerplate in the templates is probably old.

The O&M wiki page contains current boilerplate recommendations for MIB =
documents.
This is the most up-to-date recommendation for boilerplate text.
It also has textual conventions that you are encouraged to use rather =
than reinventing any wheels.
I'm not sure textual-conventions come into play in your document though.
The wiki also points to tools to check your MIB module; the tools =
typically check for many of the RFC4181 nits and the RFC Editor nits.

Hope this helps,

David Harrington
ietfdbh@comcast.net
+1-603-828-1401

> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 10:34 AM
> To: Johannes Merkle; t.petch; opsawg@ietf.org
> Cc: Manfred Lochter
> Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification =
fordraft-hmac-sha-2-
> usm-snmp-00.txt
>=20
> On 3/28/14 9:21 , "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
> wrote:
>=20
> >t.petch wrote on 27.03.2014 19:02:
> >>Normally, anything with a MIB Module in it contains standard MIB
> >> boilerplate about the standard management framework; but this MIB
> Module
> >> contains no objects, just identities, so does it need the =
boilerplate?
> >> I would say not, but RFC4181 says it does (which in turn drags in =
four
> >> more references)!  need guidance there.  You should at least =
include
> >> RFC2578 in the references since that appears in this MIB module.
> >>
> >> I must re-read RFC4181 - I suspect that there is more in there to =
be
> >> added to this I-D.
> >
> >I am not familiar with MIBs, thus I appreciate your and Uri's =
assistance.
> >Isn't RFC 3826 a proper example how to do it?
>=20
> I'm afraid this is out of my competence area. I've no clue regarding
> boilerplates, and can help only with the actual MIB content (that =
ASN.1
> stuff :).
>=20
> Sorry!


From nobody Fri Mar 28 20:12:21 2014
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Doh! I forgot to include the link to the O&M wiki
https://svn.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki

David Harrington
ietfdbh@comcast.net
+1-603-828-1401

> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ietfdbh
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 6:21 PM
> To: 'Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL'; 'Johannes Merkle'; 't.petch';
> opsawg@ietf.org
> Cc: 'Manfred Lochter'
> Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification fordraft-hmac-sha-2-
> usm-snmp-00.txt
> 
> Hi,
> 
> RFC4181 has guidelines for authors and reviewers of MIB documents.
> It has a lot of guidance about how to organize your document, and what
> boilerplate to use.
> It also contains a lot of guidance about writing a MIB.
> 
> Tools.ietf.org has templates for documents containing a MIB module.
> There is a plaintext template, a plaintext template with guidance, and an
> xml2rfc template with guidance.
> The templates were developed by/with the MIB Doctors, and the guidance is
> largely based on RFC4181 guidance about a document that contains a MIB
> module.
> The templates do NOT contain guidance on how to write a MIB.
> I authored the templates and haven't touched them in years, but RFC4181
> hasn't changed either, so the templates probably still contain fairly good
> guidance on the document organization.
> The boilerplate in the templates is probably old.
> 
> The O&M wiki page contains current boilerplate recommendations for MIB
> documents.
> This is the most up-to-date recommendation for boilerplate text.
> It also has textual conventions that you are encouraged to use rather than
> reinventing any wheels.
> I'm not sure textual-conventions come into play in your document though.
> The wiki also points to tools to check your MIB module; the tools
typically
> check for many of the RFC4181 nits and the RFC Editor nits.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> David Harrington
> ietfdbh@comcast.net
> +1-603-828-1401
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
> > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 10:34 AM
> > To: Johannes Merkle; t.petch; opsawg@ietf.org
> > Cc: Manfred Lochter
> > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification fordraft-hmac-sha-
> 2-
> > usm-snmp-00.txt
> >
> > On 3/28/14 9:21 , "Johannes Merkle" <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >t.petch wrote on 27.03.2014 19:02:
> > >>Normally, anything with a MIB Module in it contains standard MIB
> > >> boilerplate about the standard management framework; but this MIB
> > Module
> > >> contains no objects, just identities, so does it need the
boilerplate?
> > >> I would say not, but RFC4181 says it does (which in turn drags in
four
> > >> more references)!  need guidance there.  You should at least include
> > >> RFC2578 in the references since that appears in this MIB module.
> > >>
> > >> I must re-read RFC4181 - I suspect that there is more in there to be
> > >> added to this I-D.
> > >
> > >I am not familiar with MIBs, thus I appreciate your and Uri's
assistance.
> > >Isn't RFC 3826 a proper example how to do it?
> >
> > I'm afraid this is out of my competence area. I've no clue regarding
> > boilerplates, and can help only with the actual MIB content (that ASN.1
> > stuff :).
> >
> > Sorry!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


From nobody Mon Mar 31 06:01:55 2014
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:53:13 +0200
From: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/opsawg/jsK4tOXuviLlpempVgG7w_jNU3E
Subject: [OPSAWG] IoT & Network Management
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Hi all,

after I listened to Juergen's presentation in the CORE working group at
the last IETF meeting about 'constrained management' I was wondering
about the following aspect:

More and more devices (specifically IoT devices) come with a built-in
software update mechanism (even at different levels). For example, you
can see firmware update mechanisms, the ability to update individual
files (if there is a file system), or package managers being used.

The configuration data and the code is often treated in the same way and
also updated using the same style (to better deal with the constrained
nature of these devices).

I am wondering what the role of traditional network management protocols
actually is.

Why would I add, let's say, SNMP to my IoT device to configure the
device or to retrieve sensor information when I anyway have to provide a
software update mechanism together with some application layer protocol
(like CoAP)?

Ciao
Hannes


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From nobody Mon Mar 31 15:39:36 2014
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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
To: Johannes Merkle <johannes.merkle@secunet.com>
References: <20140324120302.7098.2512.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5330268C.4060002@secunet.com> <009c01cf483f$d57b4980$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <CF571C46.13459%uri@ll.mit.edu> <5331C4D5.8060407@secunet.com> <030601cf49c8$36866d20$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <CF59C030.135FA%uri@ll.mit.edu> <533574B1.8090606@secunet.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:39:24 -0700
In-Reply-To: <533574B1.8090606@secunet.com> (Johannes Merkle's message of "Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:10:09 +0100")
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Cc: Manfred Lochter <Manfred.Lochter@bsi.bund.de>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification fordraft-hmac-sha-2-usm-snmp-00.txt
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Johannes Merkle <johannes.merkle@secunet.com> writes:

> 256 bit output length is enough to prevent
> birthday-paradox/digest-guessing attacks (which require n^(1/2)
> outputs), thus I prefer HMAC256SHA512 over HMAC384SHA512. For SHA-256
> the situation is different, as collecting 2^64 outputs is not so
> completely unthinkable (albeit still not practical).
>
> Thus, I suggest defining usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol as MUST, and
> usmHMAC256SHA512AuthProtocol as SHOULD.

I'm not entirely convinced that a 256bit truncation is better than a 384
bit truncation, so my preference would be to include just two (not 6)
algorithms because I don't think they're all needed and will just make
things more confusing.  So I'd pick the best two of the 6 and go with
them, for which my preference would be:

1)  MUST: usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol
  SHOULD: usmHMAC384SHA512AuthProtocol

2)  MUST: usmHMAC192SHA256AuthProtocol
  SHOULD: usmHMAC256SHA512AuthProtocol

-- 
Wes Hardaker
Parsons

