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From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
To: "petr@fb.com" <petr@fb.com>, "Remy Chang (remy@barefootnetworks.com)" <remy@barefootnetworks.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments about draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe
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Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 08:08:39 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/opsawg/Z4VJNccobA4hafzt_Hfvi3zFPd8>
Subject: [OPSAWG] Comments about draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe
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Dear Authors,


I have read draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-1, and I have some comments.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-01

I believe that in-band telemetry is certainly a very interesting method, an=
d the community can value from working on this draft.


Major comments:

*         The draft seems to be related to the P4 In-band Network Telemetry=
 spec (http://p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf). Ho=
wever, the two documents define different packet formats and different meta=
data fields. Do you plan to align the two documents?

*         The draft should probably include a background section that descr=
ibes the environment. It should explain which entity adds the INT header, a=
nd which entity is supposed to receive the probe information and analyze it=
. It should also explain whether INT is applied to all data traffic, to a s=
ubset of the data traffic, or to probe traffic (or all of the above).

*         Since the telemetry header is modified at every hop, there should=
 be some discussion about how this affects the L4 checksum of the overlay h=
eader when using protocols such as VXLAN, Geneve, or GUE.

*         The draft should include a "Security Considerations" section. It =
should discuss potential threats and vulnerabilities imposed by adding INT =
to the network.


Other comments:

*         The abstract and introduction may need some rephrasing. For examp=
le, there should probably be more text about OAM protocols. Ping and Tracer=
oute (which are currently mentioned in the draft) are tools that are used m=
anually by network operators, but there is a vast number of OAM protocols t=
hat are used for automated proactive telemetry (fault detection, loss and d=
elay measurement).

*         The INT spec is currently missing from the reference list: http:/=
/p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf

*         Section 2.1 says "This document does not prescribe any specific e=
ncapsulation for the data-plane probe."
On the other hand, Figure 2 defines the <Probe Marker> fields, which appear=
 to be encapsulation-specific. Moreover, the length of these fields is enca=
psulation-specific, right? Please consider removing the Probe Marker fields=
 from this draft.

*         Section 3.2: "residence time is in 48-bits of nanoseconds" - plea=
se note that the IEEE 1588 standard uses a 64-bit format to represent the c=
orrectionField (residence time). It is recommended to use the same format h=
ere.

*         Section 3.3: the difference between the queueing delay and the re=
sidence time is (roughly) constant for a given switch. It would be worthwhi=
le to explain why both are needed.

*         Section 3.5: the word 'analyzer' is mentioned here for the first =
time without being defined beforehand.

*         s/needs to made/needs to be made/

*         Section 4:

o   "Swap the destination/source IP addresses in the transport header to se=
nd the packet back to the originator." - again, there is a slight conflict =
with section 2.1, which argues for encapsulation-independence. Moreover, sw=
apping the IP addresses is typically not enough (L2 addresses, L4 ports...)=
.

o   On the returning path - are devices expected to update the <Hop Count> =
field?

o   Since <Hop Count> is equal to zero, doesn't the analyzer loose the info=
rmation about the number of hops until the loopback device?

*         Section 5.1: "Probe Id" is mentioned for the first time here with=
out prior explanation, so the paragraph is not clear.

*         Section 6: router alert - again, a conflict with encapsulation in=
dependence...


Regards,
Tal Mizrahi.

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have read draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-1, and I =
have some comments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lapukho=
v-dataplane-probe-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lapukhov-dataplane-=
probe-01</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that in-band telemetry is certainly a very=
 interesting method, and the community can value from working on this draft=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Major comments:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The draft seems to =
be related to the P4 In-band Network Telemetry spec (<a href=3D"http://p4.o=
rg/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf">http://p4.org/wp-cont=
ent/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf</a>).
 However, the two documents define different packet formats and different m=
etadata fields. Do you plan to align the two documents?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The draft should pr=
obably include a background section that describes the environment. It shou=
ld explain which entity adds the INT header, and which entity is supposed t=
o receive the probe information and
 analyze it. It should also explain whether INT is applied to all data traf=
fic, to a subset of the data traffic, or to probe traffic (or all of the ab=
ove).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Since the telemetry=
 header is modified at every hop, there should be some discussion about how=
 this affects the L4 checksum of the overlay header when using protocols su=
ch as VXLAN, Geneve, or GUE.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The draft should in=
clude a &#8220;Security Considerations&#8221; section. It should discuss po=
tential threats and vulnerabilities imposed by adding INT to the network.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Other comments:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The abstract and in=
troduction may need some rephrasing. For example, there should probably be =
more text about OAM protocols. Ping and Traceroute (which are currently men=
tioned in the draft) are tools that
 are used manually by network operators, but there is a vast number of OAM =
protocols that are used for automated proactive telemetry (fault detection,=
 loss and delay measurement).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The INT spec is cur=
rently missing from the reference list:
<a href=3D"http://p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf"=
>http://p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf</a><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 2.1 says &#=
8220;This document does not prescribe any specific encapsulation for the da=
ta-plane probe.&#8221;<br>
On the other hand, Figure 2 defines the &lt;Probe Marker&gt; fields, which =
appear to be encapsulation-specific. Moreover, the length of these fields i=
s encapsulation-specific, right? Please consider removing the Probe Marker =
fields from this draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 3.2: &#8220=
;residence time is in 48-bits of nanoseconds&#8221; &#8211; please note tha=
t the IEEE 1588 standard uses a 64-bit format to represent the correctionFi=
eld (residence time). It is recommended to use the same
 format here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 3.3: the di=
fference between the queueing delay and the residence time is (roughly) con=
stant for a given switch. It would be worthwhile to explain why both are ne=
eded.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 3.5: the wo=
rd &#8216;analyzer&#8217; is mentioned here for the first time without bein=
g defined beforehand.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>s/needs to made/nee=
ds to be made/<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 4: <o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>&#8220;Swap the des=
tination/source IP addresses in the transport header to send the packet bac=
k to the originator.&#8221; &#8211; again, there is a slight conflict with =
section 2.1, which argues for encapsulation-independence.
 Moreover, swapping the IP addresses is typically not enough (L2 addresses,=
 L4 ports&#8230;).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>On the returning pa=
th &#8211; are devices expected to update the &lt;Hop Count&gt; field?<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Since &lt;Hop Count=
&gt; is equal to zero, doesn&#8217;t the analyzer loose the information abo=
ut the number of hops until the loopback device?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 5.1: &#8220=
;Probe Id&#8221; is mentioned for the first time here without prior explana=
tion, so the paragraph is not clear.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 6: router a=
lert &#8211; again, a conflict with encapsulation independence&#8230;<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tal Mizrahi.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Petr Lapukhov <petr@fb.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, "Remy Chang (remy@barefootnetworks.com)" <remy@barefootnetworks.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments about draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Comments about draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe
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Tal, thanks for the feedback! I will likely to take a stab at this next wee=
k, though I think we are in lock-down before IETF already. Not a big worry =
though, I'm not making it to Berlin, but was planning on South Korea.


I'm looking to simplify it even further. Remy might comment on merging with=
 INT - I think the latter was coming from collaboration from VMware.


Petr

________________________________
From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2016 1:08:39 AM
To: Petr Lapukhov; Remy Chang (remy@barefootnetworks.com); opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: Comments about draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe

Dear Authors,


I have read draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-1, and I have some comments.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-01<https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dlapuk=
hov-2Ddataplane-2Dprobe-2D01&d=3DCwMFAg&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DLU_v=
JaM_EQu1Ssm35j2xlA&m=3D-l5C93wGQ6ihQjbi8uBNUsLhEYMjTq-LXCIzXLtm-mo&s=3DqXbH=
StmVxJkXIUwHatb3eeN0P2CgyZYNH_m0UsrjhoU&e=3D>

I believe that in-band telemetry is certainly a very interesting method, an=
d the community can value from working on this draft.


Major comments:

*         The draft seems to be related to the P4 In-band Network Telemetry=
 spec (http://p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf<http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__p4.org_wp-2Dcontent_uploa=
ds_fixed_INT_INT-2Dcurrent-2Dspec.pdf&d=3DCwMFAg&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw=
&r=3DLU_vJaM_EQu1Ssm35j2xlA&m=3D-l5C93wGQ6ihQjbi8uBNUsLhEYMjTq-LXCIzXLtm-mo=
&s=3Da-jIuzLofcRj1-7RvS9_clSIFCgkBV-Cv5fShtR-MyE&e=3D>). However, the two d=
ocuments define different packet formats and different metadata fields. Do =
you plan to align the two documents?

*         The draft should probably include a background section that descr=
ibes the environment. It should explain which entity adds the INT header, a=
nd which entity is supposed to receive the probe information and analyze it=
. It should also explain whether INT is applied to all data traffic, to a s=
ubset of the data traffic, or to probe traffic (or all of the above).

*         Since the telemetry header is modified at every hop, there should=
 be some discussion about how this affects the L4 checksum of the overlay h=
eader when using protocols such as VXLAN, Geneve, or GUE.

*         The draft should include a "Security Considerations" section. It =
should discuss potential threats and vulnerabilities imposed by adding INT =
to the network.


Other comments:

*         The abstract and introduction may need some rephrasing. For examp=
le, there should probably be more text about OAM protocols. Ping and Tracer=
oute (which are currently mentioned in the draft) are tools that are used m=
anually by network operators, but there is a vast number of OAM protocols t=
hat are used for automated proactive telemetry (fault detection, loss and d=
elay measurement).

*         The INT spec is currently missing from the reference list: http:/=
/p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf<https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__p4.org_wp-2Dcontent_uploads_fixed_INT_=
INT-2Dcurrent-2Dspec.pdf&d=3DCwMFAg&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DLU_vJaM_=
EQu1Ssm35j2xlA&m=3D-l5C93wGQ6ihQjbi8uBNUsLhEYMjTq-LXCIzXLtm-mo&s=3Da-jIuzLo=
fcRj1-7RvS9_clSIFCgkBV-Cv5fShtR-MyE&e=3D>

*         Section 2.1 says "This document does not prescribe any specific e=
ncapsulation for the data-plane probe."
On the other hand, Figure 2 defines the <Probe Marker> fields, which appear=
 to be encapsulation-specific. Moreover, the length of these fields is enca=
psulation-specific, right? Please consider removing the Probe Marker fields=
 from this draft.

*         Section 3.2: "residence time is in 48-bits of nanoseconds" - plea=
se note that the IEEE 1588 standard uses a 64-bit format to represent the c=
orrectionField (residence time). It is recommended to use the same format h=
ere.

*         Section 3.3: the difference between the queueing delay and the re=
sidence time is (roughly) constant for a given switch. It would be worthwhi=
le to explain why both are needed.

*         Section 3.5: the word 'analyzer' is mentioned here for the first =
time without being defined beforehand.

*         s/needs to made/needs to be made/

*         Section 4:

o   "Swap the destination/source IP addresses in the transport header to se=
nd the packet back to the originator." - again, there is a slight conflict =
with section 2.1, which argues for encapsulation-independence. Moreover, sw=
apping the IP addresses is typically not enough (L2 addresses, L4 ports...)=
.

o   On the returning path - are devices expected to update the <Hop Count> =
field?

o   Since <Hop Count> is equal to zero, doesn't the analyzer loose the info=
rmation about the number of hops until the loopback device?

*         Section 5.1: "Probe Id" is mentioned for the first time here with=
out prior explanation, so the paragraph is not clear.

*         Section 6: router alert - again, a conflict with encapsulation in=
dependence...


Regards,
Tal Mizrahi.

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<p>Tal, thanks for the feedback! I will likely to take a stab at this next =
week, though I think we are in lock-down before IETF already. Not a big wor=
ry though, I'm not making it to Berlin, but was planning on South Korea.</p=
>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I'm looking to simplify it even further. Remy might comment on merging w=
ith INT - I think the latter was coming from collaboration from VMware.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Petr</p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Tal Mizrahi &lt;talmi=
@marvell.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 3, 2016 1:08:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Petr Lapukhov; Remy Chang (remy@barefootnetworks.com); opsawg@ie=
tf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Comments about draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have read draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-1, and I =
have some comments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dlapukhov-2Ddataplane-2Dprobe-2D01=
&amp;d=3DCwMFAg&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DLU_vJaM_EQu1Ssm35j2x=
lA&amp;m=3D-l5C93wGQ6ihQjbi8uBNUsLhEYMjTq-LXCIzXLtm-mo&amp;s=3DqXbHStmVxJkX=
IUwHatb3eeN0P2CgyZYNH_m0UsrjhoU&amp;e=3D">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-01</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that in-band telemetry is certainly a very=
 interesting method, and the community can value from working on this draft=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Major comments:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The draft seems to =
be related to the P4 In-band Network Telemetry spec (<a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__p4.org_wp-2Dcontent_uploads_fixe=
d_INT_INT-2Dcurrent-2Dspec.pdf&amp;d=3DCwMFAg&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MU=
w&amp;r=3DLU_vJaM_EQu1Ssm35j2xlA&amp;m=3D-l5C93wGQ6ihQjbi8uBNUsLhEYMjTq-LXC=
IzXLtm-mo&amp;s=3Da-jIuzLofcRj1-7RvS9_clSIFCgkBV-Cv5fShtR-MyE&amp;e=3D">htt=
p://p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf</a>).
 However, the two documents define different packet formats and different m=
etadata fields. Do you plan to align the two documents?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The draft should pr=
obably include a background section that describes the environment. It shou=
ld explain which entity adds the INT header, and which entity is supposed t=
o receive the probe information and
 analyze it. It should also explain whether INT is applied to all data traf=
fic, to a subset of the data traffic, or to probe traffic (or all of the ab=
ove).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Since the telemetry=
 header is modified at every hop, there should be some discussion about how=
 this affects the L4 checksum of the overlay header when using protocols su=
ch as VXLAN, Geneve, or GUE.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The draft should in=
clude a &#8220;Security Considerations&#8221; section. It should discuss po=
tential threats and vulnerabilities imposed by adding INT to the network.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Other comments:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The abstract and in=
troduction may need some rephrasing. For example, there should probably be =
more text about OAM protocols. Ping and Traceroute (which are currently men=
tioned in the draft) are tools that
 are used manually by network operators, but there is a vast number of OAM =
protocols that are used for automated proactive telemetry (fault detection,=
 loss and delay measurement).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The INT spec is cur=
rently missing from the reference list:
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__p4.org_wp-=
2Dcontent_uploads_fixed_INT_INT-2Dcurrent-2Dspec.pdf&amp;d=3DCwMFAg&amp;c=
=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DLU_vJaM_EQu1Ssm35j2xlA&amp;m=3D-l5C93wGQ6=
ihQjbi8uBNUsLhEYMjTq-LXCIzXLtm-mo&amp;s=3Da-jIuzLofcRj1-7RvS9_clSIFCgkBV-Cv=
5fShtR-MyE&amp;e=3D">
http://p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf</a><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 2.1 says &#=
8220;This document does not prescribe any specific encapsulation for the da=
ta-plane probe.&#8221;<br>
On the other hand, Figure 2 defines the &lt;Probe Marker&gt; fields, which =
appear to be encapsulation-specific. Moreover, the length of these fields i=
s encapsulation-specific, right? Please consider removing the Probe Marker =
fields from this draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 3.2: &#8220=
;residence time is in 48-bits of nanoseconds&#8221; &#8211; please note tha=
t the IEEE 1588 standard uses a 64-bit format to represent the correctionFi=
eld (residence time). It is recommended to use the same
 format here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 3.3: the di=
fference between the queueing delay and the residence time is (roughly) con=
stant for a given switch. It would be worthwhile to explain why both are ne=
eded.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 3.5: the wo=
rd &#8216;analyzer&#8217; is mentioned here for the first time without bein=
g defined beforehand.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>s/needs to made/nee=
ds to be made/<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 4: <o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>&#8220;Swap the des=
tination/source IP addresses in the transport header to send the packet bac=
k to the originator.&#8221; &#8211; again, there is a slight conflict with =
section 2.1, which argues for encapsulation-independence.
 Moreover, swapping the IP addresses is typically not enough (L2 addresses,=
 L4 ports&#8230;).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>On the returning pa=
th &#8211; are devices expected to update the &lt;Hop Count&gt; field?<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0=
pt;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Since &lt;Hop Count=
&gt; is equal to zero, doesn&#8217;t the analyzer loose the information abo=
ut the number of hops until the loopback device?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 5.1: &#8220=
;Probe Id&#8221; is mentioned for the first time here without prior explana=
tion, so the paragraph is not clear.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Section 6: router a=
lert &#8211; again, a conflict with encapsulation independence&#8230;<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tal Mizrahi.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Petr Lapukhov <petr@fb.com> wrote:
> Tal, thanks for the feedback! I will likely to take a stab at this next
> week, though I think we are in lock-down before IETF already.

Nope, you still have a few days:

2016-07-08 (Friday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all
drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF ID Submission
Tool.

(This is more for anyone procrastinating -- you still have time to
update yer documents...)
W

> Not a big
> worry though, I'm not making it to Berlin, but was planning on South Kore=
a.
>
>
> I'm looking to simplify it even further. Remy might comment on merging wi=
th
> INT - I think the latter was coming from collaboration from VMware.
>
>
> Petr
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2016 1:08:39 AM
> To: Petr Lapukhov; Remy Chang (remy@barefootnetworks.com); opsawg@ietf.or=
g
> Subject: Comments about draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe
>
>
> Dear Authors,
>
>
>
>
>
> I have read draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-1, and I have some comments.
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-01
>
>
>
> I believe that in-band telemetry is certainly a very interesting method, =
and
> the community can value from working on this draft.
>
>
>
>
>
> Major comments:
>
> =C2=B7         The draft seems to be related to the P4 In-band Network Te=
lemetry
> spec (http://p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf).
> However, the two documents define different packet formats and different
> metadata fields. Do you plan to align the two documents?
>
> =C2=B7         The draft should probably include a background section tha=
t
> describes the environment. It should explain which entity adds the INT
> header, and which entity is supposed to receive the probe information and
> analyze it. It should also explain whether INT is applied to all data
> traffic, to a subset of the data traffic, or to probe traffic (or all of =
the
> above).
>
> =C2=B7         Since the telemetry header is modified at every hop, there=
 should
> be some discussion about how this affects the L4 checksum of the overlay
> header when using protocols such as VXLAN, Geneve, or GUE.
>
> =C2=B7         The draft should include a =E2=80=9CSecurity Consideration=
s=E2=80=9D section. It
> should discuss potential threats and vulnerabilities imposed by adding IN=
T
> to the network.
>
>
>
>
>
> Other comments:
>
> =C2=B7         The abstract and introduction may need some rephrasing. Fo=
r
> example, there should probably be more text about OAM protocols. Ping and
> Traceroute (which are currently mentioned in the draft) are tools that ar=
e
> used manually by network operators, but there is a vast number of OAM
> protocols that are used for automated proactive telemetry (fault detectio=
n,
> loss and delay measurement).
>
> =C2=B7         The INT spec is currently missing from the reference list:
> http://p4.org/wp-content/uploads/fixed/INT/INT-current-spec.pdf
>
> =C2=B7         Section 2.1 says =E2=80=9CThis document does not prescribe=
 any specific
> encapsulation for the data-plane probe.=E2=80=9D
> On the other hand, Figure 2 defines the <Probe Marker> fields, which appe=
ar
> to be encapsulation-specific. Moreover, the length of these fields is
> encapsulation-specific, right? Please consider removing the Probe Marker
> fields from this draft.
>
> =C2=B7         Section 3.2: =E2=80=9Cresidence time is in 48-bits of nano=
seconds=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93
> please note that the IEEE 1588 standard uses a 64-bit format to represent
> the correctionField (residence time). It is recommended to use the same
> format here.
>
> =C2=B7         Section 3.3: the difference between the queueing delay and=
 the
> residence time is (roughly) constant for a given switch. It would be
> worthwhile to explain why both are needed.
>
> =C2=B7         Section 3.5: the word =E2=80=98analyzer=E2=80=99 is mentio=
ned here for the first
> time without being defined beforehand.
>
> =C2=B7         s/needs to made/needs to be made/
>
> =C2=B7         Section 4:
>
> o   =E2=80=9CSwap the destination/source IP addresses in the transport he=
ader to
> send the packet back to the originator.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 again, there i=
s a slight conflict
> with section 2.1, which argues for encapsulation-independence. Moreover,
> swapping the IP addresses is typically not enough (L2 addresses, L4 ports=
=E2=80=A6).
>
> o   On the returning path =E2=80=93 are devices expected to update the <H=
op Count>
> field?
>
> o   Since <Hop Count> is equal to zero, doesn=E2=80=99t the analyzer loos=
e the
> information about the number of hops until the loopback device?
>
> =C2=B7         Section 5.1: =E2=80=9CProbe Id=E2=80=9D is mentioned for t=
he first time here
> without prior explanation, so the paragraph is not clear.
>
> =C2=B7         Section 6: router alert =E2=80=93 again, a conflict with e=
ncapsulation
> independence=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tal Mizrahi.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>



--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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Subject: [OPSAWG] Solicit comments for my draft of draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00
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Hi=A3=ACdear all.

We have submitted a new I-D that specifies an extension to the IPFIX
information model to export the BGP community information. In this =
draft, we
add two information elements in order to carry the community information =
for
the source IP and destination IP.=20

If you are interested in this, feel free to contact me. Any question and
suggestions are welcome.

=20

The information of this draft is listed as follows.

=20

A new version of I-D, draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt has =
been
successfully submitted by Rong Gu and posted to the IETF repository.

Name:           draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
Revision:       00
Title:          Export BGP community information in IP Flow Information
Export (IPFIX)
Document date:  2016-07-06
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          6
URL:
<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community=
-00
.txt>
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-=
00.
txt
Status:
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/
Htmlized:
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00>
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00


Abstract:
   This draft specifies an extension to the IPFIX information model =
defined
in [RFC7012] to export the BGP community information.  Two information
elements, bgpSourceCommunityList and bgpDestinationCommunityList, are
introduced in this document to carry the community information for the
source IP and destination IP respectively.

=20

B.R.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Rong Gu
China Mobile Research Institute
No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, Xicheng District
Beijing, China, 100053
Mobile: +86 13811520541
Phone: +86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211
Email:  <mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com> gurong@chinamobile.com


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" =
style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Hi</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=A3=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US>dear =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>We =
have submitted a new I-D that </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>specifies an extension to =
the IPFIX information model to export the BGP community information. In =
this draft, we add two information elements in order to carry the =
community information for the source IP and destination IP. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>If you are interested in =
this, feel free to contact me.</span><span lang=3DEN-US> </span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>Any question and =
suggestions are welcome.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>The information of this draft is listed as =
follows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>A new version of I-D, =
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'> <span style=3D'background:white'>has been =
successfully submitted by Rong Gu and posted to the</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>IETF repository.</span><br><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
00</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Export BGP community information in IP Flow Information =
Export (IPFIX)</span><br><span style=3D'background:white'>Document =
date:&nbsp; 2016-07-06</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Submission</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-co=
mmunity-00.txt" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/dra=
ft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt</span></a></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-commun=
ity/" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-l=
i-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-0=
0" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ops=
awg-ipfix-bgp-community-00</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Abstract:</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>&nbsp;&nbsp; This draft specifies an =
extension to the IPFIX information model</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>defined in [RFC7012] to export the BGP =
community information.&nbsp; Two</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>information elements, bgpSourceCommunityList =
and</span> <span style=3D'background:white'>bgpDestinationCommunityList, =
are introduced in this document to carry the community information for =
the source IP and destination IP</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>respectively.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>B.R.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>-------------=
----------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Rong =
Gu<br>China Mobile Research Institute<br>No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, =
Xicheng District<br>Beijing, China, 100053<br>Mobile: +86 =
13811520541<br>Phone: +86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211<br>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>gurong@chinamobile.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div></body></html>
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From: "Ariel Gu" <gurong@chinamobile.com>
To: "'Zhoutianran'" <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, <warren@kumari.net>, <opsawg@ietf.org>
References: 
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------=_NextPart_000_0027_01D1D833.E3BA8AC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, dear all.

=20

I have submitted a draft which specifies an extension to the IPFIX
information model to export the BGP community information.  In order to
collect BGP community information, two information elements need to be
added.

Time slot is appreciated in order to share this draft with others this =
IETF
in Berlin. 10 minutes is OK for me.

=20

It=A1=AFs grateful of you if you can give me the chance of presentation.

=20

Feel free to contact with me. Best regards.=20

-----------------------------------------------------------

Rong Gu
China Mobile Research Institute
No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, Xicheng District
Beijing, China, 100053
Mobile: +86 13811520541
Phone: +86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211
Email:  <mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com> gurong@chinamobile.com

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Ariel Gu [mailto:gurong@chinamobile.com]=20
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA7=D4=C26=C8=D5 19:20
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'opsawg@ietf.org'
=B3=AD=CB=CD: lizhenqiang; 'Dongjie (Jimmy)'
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Solicit comments for my draft of
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00

=20

Hi=A3=ACdear all.

We have submitted a new I-D that specifies an extension to the IPFIX
information model to export the BGP community information. In this =
draft, we
add two information elements in order to carry the community information =
for
the source IP and destination IP.=20

If you are interested in this, feel free to contact me. Any question and
suggestions are welcome.

=20

The information of this draft is listed as follows.

=20

A new version of I-D, draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt has =
been
successfully submitted by Rong Gu and posted to the IETF repository.

Name:           draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
Revision:       00
Title:          Export BGP community information in IP Flow Information
Export (IPFIX)
Document date:  2016-07-06
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          6
URL:
<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community=
-00
.txt>
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-=
00.
txt
Status:
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/
Htmlized:
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00>
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00


Abstract:
   This draft specifies an extension to the IPFIX information model =
defined
in [RFC7012] to export the BGP community information.  Two information
elements, bgpSourceCommunityList and bgpDestinationCommunityList, are
introduced in this document to carry the community information for the
source IP and destination IP respectively.

=20

B.R.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Rong Gu
China Mobile Research Institute
No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, Xicheng District
Beijing, China, 100053
Mobile: +86 13811520541
Phone: +86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211
Email:  <mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com> gurong@chinamobile.com


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" =
style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi, dear =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I have =
submitted a draft which specifies an extension to the IPFIX information =
model to export the BGP community information.&nbsp; In order to collect =
BGP community information, two information elements need to be =
added.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Time slot is appreciated in order to share this =
draft with others this IETF in Berlin. 10 minutes is OK for =
me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>It=A1=AFs =
grateful of you if you can give me the chance of =
presentation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Feel free =
to contact with me. Best regards. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>-------------=
----------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Rong =
Gu<br>China Mobile Research Institute<br>No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, =
Xicheng District<br>Beijing, China, 100053<br>Mobile: +86 =
13811520541<br>Phone: +86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211<br>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>gurong@chinamobile.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3DEN-US>:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'> Ariel Gu [<a =
href=3D"mailto:gurong@chinamobile.com">mailto:gurong@chinamobile.com</a>]=
 <br></span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3DEN-US>:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'> 2016</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'>=C4=EA<span lang=3DEN-US>7</span>=D4=C2<span =
lang=3DEN-US>6</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3DEN-US> =
19:20<br></span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> =
'opsawg@ietf.org'<br></span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> lizhenqiang; 'Dongjie =
(Jimmy)'<br></span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US> Solicit comments for my draft of =
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00<o:p></o:p></span></span></p></div>=
</div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Hi</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=A3=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US>dear =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>We =
have submitted a new I-D that </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>specifies an extension to =
the IPFIX information model to export the BGP community information. In =
this draft, we add two information elements in order to carry the =
community information for the source IP and destination IP. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>If you are interested in =
this, feel free to contact me.</span><span lang=3DEN-US> </span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>Any question and =
suggestions are welcome.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>The information of this draft is listed as =
follows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>A new version of I-D, =
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'> <span style=3D'background:white'>has been =
successfully submitted by Rong Gu and posted to the</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>IETF repository.</span><br><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
00</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Export BGP community information in IP Flow Information =
Export (IPFIX)</span><br><span style=3D'background:white'>Document =
date:&nbsp; 2016-07-06</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Submission</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-co=
mmunity-00.txt" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/dra=
ft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt</span></a></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-commun=
ity/" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-l=
i-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-0=
0" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ops=
awg-ipfix-bgp-community-00</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Abstract:</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>&nbsp;&nbsp; This draft specifies an =
extension to the IPFIX information model</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>defined in [RFC7012] to export the BGP =
community information.&nbsp; Two</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>information elements, bgpSourceCommunityList =
and</span> <span style=3D'background:white'>bgpDestinationCommunityList, =
are introduced in this document to carry the community information for =
the source IP and destination IP</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>respectively.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>B.R.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>-------------=
----------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Rong =
Gu<br>China Mobile Research Institute<br>No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, =
Xicheng District<br>Beijing, China, 100053<br>Mobile: +86 =
13811520541<br>Phone: +86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211<br>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>gurong@chinamobile.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div></body></html>
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From: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>
To: Ariel Gu <gurong@chinamobile.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Solicit comments for my draft of draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00
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<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"text-justi=
fy-trim:punctuation">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi, Ari=
el<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I approve that we need to conside=
r adding new IEs according to the needs of real network environment.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A editorial suggestion: this draf=
t has a long introduction which contains problem statement and solution pro=
posed. Maybe, it can be reorganized to two sections.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Best Re=
gards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Zongpen=
g Du<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> OPSAWG [mail=
to:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ariel Gu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 06, 2016 7:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> opsawg@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> lizhenqiang<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [OPSAWG] Solicit comments for my draft of draft-li-opsawg-i=
pfix-bgp-community-00<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi</span><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=A3=AC</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">dear all.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We have submitted a new I-D tha=
t </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;M=
icrosoft YaHei UI&quot;;color:#212121;background:white">specifies an extens=
ion to the IPFIX information model to export the BGP
 community information. In this draft, we add two information elements in o=
rder to carry the community information for the source IP and destination I=
P.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;;color:#212121;background:white">If yo=
u are interested in this, feel free to contact me.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Mic=
rosoft YaHei UI&quot;;color:#212121;background:white">Any question and sugg=
estions are welcome.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The information of this draft i=
s listed as follows.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;;color:#212121;background:white">A new=
 version of I-D, draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&=
quot;;color:#212121">
<span style=3D"background:white">has been successfully submitted by Rong Gu=
 and posted to the</span>
<span style=3D"background:white">IETF repository.</span><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community</span><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; 00</span><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Export BGP community information in IP Flow Information =
Export (IPFIX)</span><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Document date:&nbsp; 2016-07-06</span><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Submission</span><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6</span><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan></span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/inte=
rnet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;;b=
ackground:white">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix=
-bgp-community-00.txt</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;;color:#212121"><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-l=
i-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;;background:white">https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/</span></a></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Micros=
oft YaHei UI&quot;;color:#212121"><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-=
bgp-community-00" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;;background:white">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00</span></a></span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&q=
uot;;color:#212121"><br>
<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Abstract:</span><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">&nbsp;&nbsp; This draft specifies an exten=
sion to the IPFIX information model</span>
<span style=3D"background:white">defined in [RFC7012] to export the BGP com=
munity information.&nbsp; Two</span>
<span style=3D"background:white">information elements, bgpSourceCommunityLi=
st and</span>
<span style=3D"background:white">bgpDestinationCommunityList, are introduce=
d in this document to carry the community information for the source IP and=
 destination IP</span>
<span style=3D"background:white">respectively.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;;color:#212121;background:white"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Microsoft YaHei UI&quot;;color:#212121;background:white">B.R.<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;">---------------------------------------------------------=
--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;">Rong Gu<br>
China Mobile Research Institute<br>
No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, Xicheng District<br>
Beijing, China, 100053<br>
Mobile: &#43;86 13811520541<br>
Phone: &#43;86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211<br>
Email: <a href=3D"mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com"><span style=3D"color:blue=
">gurong@chinamobile.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BAFEC9523F57BC48A51C20226A5589575FE299CAnkgeml514mbxchi_--


From nobody Wed Jul  6 20:48:05 2016
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From: "Ariel Gu" <gurong@chinamobile.com>
To: "'Duzongpeng'" <duzongpeng@huawei.com>, <opsawg@ietf.org>
References: <000001d1d778$5ab27ff0$10177fd0$@chinamobile.com> <BAFEC9523F57BC48A51C20226A5589575FE299CA@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com>
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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 11:47:55 +0800
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Subject: [OPSAWG] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIFNvbGljaXQgY29tbWVudHMgZm9yIG15IGRy?= =?gb2312?b?YWZ0IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWxpLW9wc2F3Zy1pcGZpeC1iZ3AtY29tbXVuaXR5LTAw?=
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Hi, Zongpeng.

Thank you for your suggestion. Introduction can be newly organized in =
the
updated version.

Thanks again.

=20

B.R.

Gu Rong

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com]=20
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2016=C4=EA7=D4=C27=C8=D5 11:39
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Ariel Gu; opsawg@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: lizhenqiang
=D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: [OPSAWG] Solicit comments for my draft of
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00

=20

Hi, Ariel

=20

         I approve that we need to consider adding new IEs according to =
the
needs of real network environment.

=20

         A editorial suggestion: this draft has a long introduction =
which
contains problem statement and solution proposed. Maybe, it can be
reorganized to two sections.

=20

Best Regards

Zongpeng Du

=20

From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ariel Gu
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 7:20 PM
To: opsawg@ietf.org <mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>=20
Cc: lizhenqiang
Subject: [OPSAWG] Solicit comments for my draft of
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00

=20

Hi=A3=ACdear all.

We have submitted a new I-D that specifies an extension to the IPFIX
information model to export the BGP community information. In this =
draft, we
add two information elements in order to carry the community information =
for
the source IP and destination IP.=20

If you are interested in this, feel free to contact me. Any question and
suggestions are welcome.

=20

The information of this draft is listed as follows.

=20

A new version of I-D, draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt has =
been
successfully submitted by Rong Gu and posted to the IETF repository.

Name:           draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
Revision:       00
Title:          Export BGP community information in IP Flow Information
Export (IPFIX)
Document date:  2016-07-06
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          6
URL:
<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community=
-00
.txt>
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-=
00.
txt
Status:
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/
Htmlized:
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00>
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00


Abstract:
   This draft specifies an extension to the IPFIX information model =
defined
in [RFC7012] to export the BGP community information.  Two information
elements, bgpSourceCommunityList and bgpDestinationCommunityList, are
introduced in this document to carry the community information for the
source IP and destination IP respectively.

=20

B.R.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Rong Gu
China Mobile Research Institute
No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, Xicheng District
Beijing, China, 100053
Mobile: +86 13811520541
Phone: +86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211
Email:  <mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com> gurong@chinamobile.com


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" =
style=3D'text-justify-trim:punctuation'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi, =
Zongpeng.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thank you for your suggestion. Introduction can =
be newly organized in the updated version.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thanks =
again.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>B.R.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Gu =
Rong<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3DEN-US>:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'> Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com] <br></span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3DEN-US>:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'> 2016</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA",sans-ser=
if'>=C4=EA<span lang=3DEN-US>7</span>=D4=C2<span =
lang=3DEN-US>7</span>=C8=D5<span lang=3DEN-US> =
11:39<br></span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Ariel Gu; =
opsawg@ietf.org<br></span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> =
lizhenqiang<br></span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span =
lang=3DEN-US>:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> RE: [OPSAWG] Solicit =
comments for my draft of =
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00<o:p></o:p></span></span></p></div>=
</div><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi, Ariel<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
I approve that we need to consider adding new IEs according to the needs =
of real network environment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
A editorial suggestion: this draft has a long introduction which =
contains problem statement and solution proposed. Maybe, it can be =
reorganized to two sections.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Best =
Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Zongpeng Du<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></=
b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> OPSAWG [<a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org</a=
>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ariel Gu<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 06, 2016 =
7:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> =
lizhenqiang<br><b>Subject:</b> [OPSAWG] Solicit comments for my draft of =
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Hi</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5'>=A3=AC</span><span lang=3DEN-US>dear =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>We =
have submitted a new I-D that </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>specifies an extension to =
the IPFIX information model to export the BGP community information. In =
this draft, we add two information elements in order to carry the =
community information for the source IP and destination IP. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>If you are interested in =
this, feel free to contact me.</span><span lang=3DEN-US> </span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>Any question and =
suggestions are welcome.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>The information of this draft is listed as =
follows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>A new version of I-D, =
draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'> <span style=3D'background:white'>has been =
successfully submitted by Rong Gu and posted to the</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>IETF repository.</span><br><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
00</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Export BGP community information in IP Flow Information =
Export (IPFIX)</span><br><span style=3D'background:white'>Document =
date:&nbsp; 2016-07-06</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Submission</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-co=
mmunity-00.txt" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/dra=
ft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-00.txt</span></a></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-commun=
ity/" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-l=
i-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community/</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-0=
0" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-ops=
awg-ipfix-bgp-community-00</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><br><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>Abstract:</span><br><span =
style=3D'background:white'>&nbsp;&nbsp; This draft specifies an =
extension to the IPFIX information model</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>defined in [RFC7012] to export the BGP =
community information.&nbsp; Two</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>information elements, bgpSourceCommunityList =
and</span> <span style=3D'background:white'>bgpDestinationCommunityList, =
are introduced in this document to carry the community information for =
the source IP and destination IP</span> <span =
style=3D'background:white'>respectively.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft YaHei =
UI",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white'>B.R.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft =
style=3D'text-align:left'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>-------------=
----------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Rong =
Gu<br>China Mobile Research Institute<br>No.32 Xuanwumen West Street, =
Xicheng District<br>Beijing, China, 100053<br>Mobile: +86 =
13811520541<br>Phone: +86 10 15801696688 Ext. 36211<br>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:huanglu@chinamobile.com"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>gurong@chinamobile.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_004C_01D1D845.67A366C0--




From nobody Thu Jul  7 06:05:22 2016
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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Agenda requests
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if there is space on the agenda, we would like to have a 5 min for a quick =
update on service model scope and purpose clarification.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00

-Qin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Warren=20
> Kumari
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 2:29 PM
> To: opsawg@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Agenda requests
>=20
> ... and a reminder that we have open agenda time.
>=20
> W
>=20
> On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 1:18 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
> wrote:
> > Dear OpsAWG,
> >
> > We have requested a slot for the joint OpsAWG / OpsArea meeting in
> Berlin.
> >
> > Please send over requests for agenda time.
> > Please remember that we give time to drafts that have already=20
> > received significant discussion on list.
> >
> >
> > Also, a reminder that OpsAWG is housing the MUD work -- it would be=20
> > much appreciated if you could read the MUD documents:

_______________________________________________
OPSAWG mailing list
OPSAWG@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


From nobody Thu Jul  7 06:48:36 2016
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
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From: "Ersue, Mehmet (Nokia - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nokia.com>
To: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
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From nobody Thu Jul  7 19:29:29 2016
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From: Zhoutianran <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
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Hi Dan,

I am reading the framework draft. Here are some initial comments:

1. In figure 1, the AA controller has connection to both AA client and AA s=
erver. I think it's not practical in many cases. AAC and AAS, IMHO, are usu=
ally in different administrative domains. For example, AAC installed on a C=
E, and the AAS installed on the PE. Usually, CE and PE are controlled by di=
fferent domain controllers. It's hard to deploy a super controller for CE a=
nd PE. Another example is, as you showed, the IoT. It's not practical to le=
t all the end devices connect to the AA controller.
Here, what scenario did you consider for this framework?
The suggestion, if I am right, is to have the AA controller only connect to=
 the AAS. AAC can pull additional information from the path: AA controller-=
>AAS->AAC.

2. If both AAC and AAS connect to the AA controller, that means the AAC and=
 AAS can be synchronized and configured by the management plane. So I guess=
 some of the control plane function between AAC and AAS can be reduced.


Regards,
Tianran

From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (=
Dan)
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:58 AM
To: opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi,

I have submitted two new Internet-Draft that describe the automatic attachm=
ent functionality:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-framewo=
rk/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-lldp/

Principal changes:

- addressing the comments received at IETF 95  we split the generic protoco=
l-independent framework that describes the discovery and service mapping me=
chanism in a separate I-D

- we clarified terminology and re-drawn the principal building blocks
- we connected the discovery and authentication mechanism with the MUD prop=
osal

Questions and comments are welcome.

Thanks and Regards,

Dan


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<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Dan,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am reading the framework dr=
aft. Here are some initial comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">1. In figure 1, the AA contro=
ller has connection to both AA client and AA server. I think it&#8217;s not=
 practical in many cases. AAC and AAS, IMHO, are usually
 in different administrative domains. For example, AAC installed on a CE, a=
nd the AAS installed on the PE. Usually, CE and PE are controlled by differ=
ent domain controllers. It&#8217;s hard to deploy a super controller for CE=
 and PE. Another example is, as you showed,
 the IoT. It&#8217;s not practical to let all the end devices connect to th=
e AA controller.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Here, what scenario did you c=
onsider for this framework?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">The suggestion, if I am right=
, is to have the AA controller only connect to the AAS. AAC can pull additi=
onal information from the path: AA controller-&gt;AAS-&gt;AAC.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">2. If both AAC and AAS connec=
t to the AA controller, that means the AAC and AAS can be synchronized and =
configured by the management plane. So I guess some
 of the control plane function between AAC and AAS can be reduced.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tianran<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> opsawg@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I have submitted two new Intern=
et-Draft that describe the automatic attachment functionality:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-framework/">https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-framework/</a><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-lldp/">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-lldp/</a><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Principal changes: <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- addressing the comments re=
ceived at IETF 95 &nbsp;we split the generic protocol-independent framework=
 that describes the discovery and service mapping mechanism in a separate I=
-D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- we clarified terminology a=
nd re-drawn the principal building blocks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- we connected the discovery an=
d authentication mechanism with the MUD proposal
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Questions and comments are welc=
ome. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks and Regards,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F2183BFADBDNKGEML515MBXchi_--


From nobody Fri Jul  8 04:06:23 2016
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Subject: [OPSAWG] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : The TACACS+ Protocol
        Authors         : Thorsten Dahm
                          Andrej Ota
                          Douglas C. Medway Gash
                          David Carrel
                          Lol Grant
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-04.txt
	Pages           : 36
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
   TACACS+ provides Device Administration for routers, network access
   servers and other networked computing devices via one or more
   centralized servers.  This document describes the protocol that is
   used by TACACS+.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-04

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https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-04


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From nobody Fri Jul  8 12:36:18 2016
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Alternate Tunnel Encapsulation for Data Frames in CAPWAP
        Authors         : Rong Zhang
                          Zhen Cao
                          Hui Deng
                          Rajesh S. Pazhyannur
                          Sri Gundavelli
                          Li Xue
                          Jianjie You
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-alt-tunnel-08.txt
	Pages           : 24
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
   Control and Provisioning of Wireless Access Points (CAPWAP) defines a
   specification to encapsulate a station's data frames between the
   Wireless Transmission Point (WTP) and Access Controller (AC).
   Specifically, the station's IEEE 802.11 data frames can be either
   locally bridged or tunneled to the AC.  When tunneled, a CAPWAP data
   channel is used for tunneling.  In many deployments encapsulating
   data frames to an entity other than the AC (for example to an Access
   Router (AR)) is desirable.  Furthermore, it may also be desirable to
   use different tunnel encapsulation modes between the WTP and the
   Access Router.  This document defines extension to CAPWAP protocol
   for supporting this capability and refers to it as alternate tunnel
   encapsulation.  The alternate tunnel encapsulation allows 1) the WTP
   to tunnel non-management data frames to an endpoint different from
   the AC and 2) the WTP to tunnel using one of many known encapsulation
   types such as IP-IP, IP-GRE, CAPWAP.  The WTP may advertise support
   for alternate tunnel encapsulation during the discovery or join
   process and AC may select one of the supported alternate tunnel
   encapsulation types while configuring the WTP.


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From nobody Fri Jul  8 17:10:54 2016
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-pularikkal-opsawg-wifi-calling-01.txt
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Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 00:10:49 +0000
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Cc: Samy Touati <samy.touati@ericsson.com>, "Mark Grayson \(mgrayson\)" <mgrayson@cisco.com>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
Subject: [OPSAWG] FW: New Version Notification for draft-pularikkal-opsawg-wifi-calling-01.txt
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Hello Everyone,

This is an updated version of the Wi-Fi Calling deployment considerartions
draft. Appreciate your review and feedback on the same.

Regards

Byju

On 7/7/16, 4:10 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
wrote:

>
>A new version of I-D, draft-pularikkal-opsawg-wifi-calling-01.txt
>has been successfully submitted by Byju Pularikkal and posted to the
>IETF repository.
>
>Name:		draft-pularikkal-opsawg-wifi-calling
>Revision:	01
>Title:		Carrier Wi-Fi Calling Deployment Considerations
>Document date:	2016-07-07
>Group:		Individual Submission
>Pages:		26
>URL:           =20
>https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pularikkal-opsawg-wifi-calling-
>01.txt
>Status:        =20
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pularikkal-opsawg-wifi-calling/
>Htmlized:      =20
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pularikkal-opsawg-wifi-calling-01
>Diff:          =20
>https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pularikkal-opsawg-wifi-calling-0=
1
>
>Abstract:
>   Carrier Wi-Fi Calling is a solution that allows mobile operators to
>   seamlessly offload mobile voice signaling and bearer traffic onto Wi-
>   Fi access networks, which may or may not be managed by the mobile
>   operators.  Mobile data offload onto Wi-Fi access networks has
>   already become very common, as Wi-Fi access has become more
>   ubiquitous.  However, the offload of mobile voice traffic onto Wi-Fi
>   networks has become prevalent only in recent years.  This was
>   primarily driven by the native Wi-Fi Calling client support
>   introduced by device vendors.  The objective of this document is to
>   provide a high level deployment reference to Mobile Operators and Wi-
>   Fi Operators on Carrier Wi-Fi Calling.
>
>                 =20
>       =20
>
>
>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>submission
>until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>The IETF Secretariat
>


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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <OpsAWG@ietf.org>
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: Zhoutianran <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts
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Hi Tianran,

Thank you for the reading and for the comments.

Your observation is very correct and it relates to something that we failed=
 to explain in enough details in the I-D. The AA controller in the diagram =
should not be regarded as a 'super-controller' across administrative domain=
s, but rather as a policy function that applies to the network and may be i=
nstantiated in different ways. The 'vertical' data model (6) in the diagram=
 does not carry the same information to AACs and AASs. There are two possib=
le scenarios here:


1.       The AA controller connects only to the AAS and configures the mapp=
ing policies on the network devices. Clients are configured mainly by the h=
orizontal interaction - this will be true also in most of the IoT scenarios

2.       Both AAS and AACs connect to the AA controller function. The clien=
ts get authentication and local security and local services information fro=
m the controller (what services are available, how you configure to them). =
Servers perform same functionality as in #1. The implementation of the cont=
roller may be distributed, possibly with an 'orchestration' function in-bet=
ween. This fits for example the BYOD use cases.

I hope this clarifies both comments. I will make one slide to address the c=
omments at the meeting, and include a more detailed description for the nex=
t round of I-Ds.

Regards,

Dan


From: Zhoutianran [mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 5:29 AM
To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi Dan,

I am reading the framework draft. Here are some initial comments:

1. In figure 1, the AA controller has connection to both AA client and AA s=
erver. I think it's not practical in many cases. AAC and AAS, IMHO, are usu=
ally in different administrative domains. For example, AAC installed on a C=
E, and the AAS installed on the PE. Usually, CE and PE are controlled by di=
fferent domain controllers. It's hard to deploy a super controller for CE a=
nd PE. Another example is, as you showed, the IoT. It's not practical to le=
t all the end devices connect to the AA controller.
Here, what scenario did you consider for this framework?
The suggestion, if I am right, is to have the AA controller only connect to=
 the AAS. AAC can pull additional information from the path: AA controller-=
>AAS->AAC.

2. If both AAC and AAS connect to the AA controller, that means the AAC and=
 AAS can be synchronized and configured by the management plane. So I guess=
 some of the control plane function between AAC and AAS can be reduced.


Regards,
Tianran

From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (=
Dan)
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:58 AM
To: opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi,

I have submitted two new Internet-Draft that describe the automatic attachm=
ent functionality:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-framewo=
rk/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dframework_&d=3DCwMFAg=
&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA=
&m=3D5FKNb8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&s=3DcIIUowtv3UQgUn-Qtt5JuJ=
xjJuRAd3TyrJTLmoAiGmw&e=3D>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-lldp/<h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_=
doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dlldp_&d=3DCwMFAg&c=3DBFpWQ=
w8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA&m=3D5FKNb=
8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&s=3DkfxeNRG9cQnc_CpNcRKkee83AoXcactq=
6q8ii6Itgs8&e=3D>

Principal changes:

- addressing the comments received at IETF 95  we split the generic protoco=
l-independent framework that describes the discovery and service mapping me=
chanism in a separate I-D

- we clarified terminology and re-drawn the principal building blocks
- we connected the discovery and authentication mechanism with the MUD prop=
osal

Questions and comments are welcome.

Thanks and Regards,

Dan


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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Tianran,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thank you for the read=
ing and for the comments.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Your observation is ve=
ry correct and it relates to something that we failed to explain in enough =
details in the I-D. The AA controller in the diagram should not be regarded=
 as a &#8216;super-controller&#8217; across administrative
 domains, but rather as a policy function that applies to the network and m=
ay be instantiated in different ways. The &#8216;vertical&#8217; data model=
 (6) in the diagram does not carry the same information to AACs and AASs. T=
here are two possible scenarios here:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"=
mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D">The AA controller connects only to the AAS and configures the ma=
pping policies on the network devices. Clients are configured mainly by the=
 horizontal interaction &#8211; this will
 be true also in most of the IoT scenarios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"=
mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D">Both AAS and AACs connect to the AA controller function. The cli=
ents get authentication and local security and local services information f=
rom the controller (what services are
 available, how you configure to them). Servers perform same functionality =
as in #1. The implementation of the controller may be distributed, possibly=
 with an &#8216;orchestration&#8217; function in-between. This fits for exa=
mple the BYOD use cases.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I hope this clarifies =
both comments. I will make one slide to address the comments at the meeting=
, and include a more detailed description for the next round of I-Ds.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dan<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Zhoutian=
ran [mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 8, 2016 5:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Romascanu, Dan (Dan); opsawg@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Hi Dan,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">I am reading the =
framework draft. Here are some initial comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">1. In figure 1, t=
he AA controller has connection to both AA client and AA server. I think it=
&#8217;s not practical in many cases. AAC and AAS, IMHO,
 are usually in different administrative domains. For example, AAC installe=
d on a CE, and the AAS installed on the PE. Usually, CE and PE are controll=
ed by different domain controllers. It&#8217;s hard to deploy a super contr=
oller for CE and PE. Another example is,
 as you showed, the IoT. It&#8217;s not practical to let all the end device=
s connect to the AA controller.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Here, what scenar=
io did you consider for this framework?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">The suggestion, i=
f I am right, is to have the AA controller only connect to the AAS. AAC can=
 pull additional information from the path: AA
 controller-&gt;AAS-&gt;AAC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">2. If both AAC an=
d AAS connect to the AA controller, that means the AAC and AAS can be synch=
ronized and configured by the management plane.
 So I guess some of the control plane function between AAC and AAS can be r=
educed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Regards,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Tianran<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">From:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"> OPSAWG [<a href=3D"mailto:ops=
awg-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Hi,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">I have su=
bmitted two new Internet-Draft that describe the automatic attachment funct=
ionality:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dframework_&amp;d=3DCw=
MFAg&amp;c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&amp;r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRu=
cPvdrphpBsFA&amp;m=3D5FKNb8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&amp;s=3DcI=
IUowtv3UQgUn-Qtt5JuJxjJuRAd3TyrJTLmoAiGmw&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-framework/</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dlldp_&amp;d=3DCwMFAg&=
amp;c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&amp;r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdr=
phpBsFA&amp;m=3D5FKNb8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&amp;s=3DkfxeNRG=
9cQnc_CpNcRKkee83AoXcactq6q8ii6Itgs8&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-lldp/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Principal=
 changes: <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">- addr=
essing the comments received at IETF 95 &nbsp;we split the generic protocol=
-independent framework that describes the discovery and service mapping mec=
hanism in a separate I-D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">- we c=
larified terminology and re-drawn the principal building blocks<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">- we conn=
ected the discovery and authentication mechanism with the MUD proposal
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Questions=
 and comments are welcome.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Thanks an=
d Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Dan<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA75235990AZFFEXMB04globa_--


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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <OpsAWG@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <OpsAWG@ietf.org>
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Qin Wu'" <bill.wu@huawei.com>, "'Scharf, Michael \(Nokia - DE\)'" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, "'opsawg@ietf.org'" <OpsAWG@ietf.org>
References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA85366132@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <655C07320163294895BBADA28372AF5D48906FBF@FR712WXCHMBA15.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA853962A1@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <655C07320163294895BBADA28372AF5D48911DD8@FR712WXCHMBA15.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA8539FD62@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
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Hi Michael and Qin,

Thanks for the constructive discussions.

In line...

> > I have quickly scanned this document. Some initial comments [ms]:
> >
> > *** Page 3:
> >
> >    Service Model:  A service model is a specific type of data model.
> >=20
> >   It describes a service and all of the parameters of the service in =
a
> >       portable, operator-independent way.  It can be used by a human =
or
> >       by software to configure or request a service and may equally =
be
> >       consumed by a human or by a software component.
> >
> > [ms] I would suggest a more careful wording regarding the =
completeness
> > of the model, e.g., "It aims at describing a service and all of the
> > parameters of the service...". As discussed in L3SM in the past, for
> > certain services (e.g., firewalls, DoS prevention, ...) the service
> > model would have to be extended / augmented. Also note that the
> > statement "all parameters" contradicts the statement on SLAs later =
in
> > the text.
> >
> > [Qin] What the service is has been well defined and clarified before
> > service model definition in the section 2.
> > That is to say, Firewall and DoS prevention are just additional
> > functionalities that are used to enhance the basic service we =
defined
> > in the document.
> > For what the service is not is further clarified in the section 5, =
the
> > first bullet.
>=20
> [ms2] I am not sure if I can follow. My point is that the wording =
"describes a
> service and all of the parameters" seems contradicting given the use =
of the term
> "all" if you exclude SLAs. Also, Section 5 does not really have a =
well-defined
> definition - excluding some examples does not necessarily result in a =
preciser
> definition. (I agree that "Service" is challenging to define but maybe =
this could be
> one reason to find an alternative term to "service model").
>=20
> [Qin]: As we clarified Service Level Agreements (SLAs) have a high =
degree of
> overlap
>  with the definition of services present in service models, but we =
don't want to
> cover a number of fine-grained details of attributes defined in SLA =
for the reason
> given in section 5.
>  That's why we add a constraint after " describes a service and all of =
the
> parameters " to limit these parameters to abstract level and operator
> independent way. Maybe we could add
> some text to make this more clear.

I think this is a language issue.
I tend to agree with Michel that "all" is a risky word.
Clearly we (well, OK, I wrote those words) meant "all of the parameters =
that describe the part of the service we are describing". We did not =
mean *all* and that should be clear from the discussions of =
augmentations that operators might make to cover their own additions to =
the base service.

What we are trying to do is:
- define a core, base service that all operators agree on
- list *all* of the parameters of that core, base service
- list all of the settings of those parameters necessary to define
    that core, base service.

We can make that clearer.

> > In addition, we don't take SLA fine granularity details combining
> > commercial terms as service parameters, so I don't see there is
> > inconsistency issue, for some misconception on the service model
> > Understanding is clarified in the different section, this is
> > intentional.
>=20
> [ms2] My point is that SLA parameters may be an important part of the =
customer-
> service provider agreement of a service and it is surprising to first =
seeing this
> mentioned at the end of Section 5.
>=20
> [Qin]: Sure, to avoid confusion with the service defined in the model, =
as I
> mentioned above, we use the different term for these Quality related
> parameters.

I agree with both of you here.
Without doubt, SLA will form an important part of the commercial =
agreement between operator and customer.
However, with the exception of some high-level parameters of the service =
(such as bandwidth) we find that SLA parameters vary widely between =
operators.

I'm aware that a number of organisations (most notably TMF) have spent a =
lot of time parameterising and generalising SLAs. This may be something =
we can try to do as well, but in my opinion it is both hard and an =
extension to the service model work we are doing.

> > [ms] I find the wording "it can be used by a human..." confusing. Is
> > the assumption that a user would manually type in a service request
> > resulting in a valid data model, e.g., by manually typing in NETCONF
> > commands? I would rather write something like "the parameters can be
> > entered by software or also manually by a human..."
> >
> > [Qin]: what we try to convey here is Human can rely on CLI,script or
> > other human readable language to define a service, request the
> > service, but such parameter will not directly implemented by network =
element.
>=20
> [ms2] Sure, but what is the role of a service model defined in YANG =
e.g. when
> the human relies on CLI or scripts? To me this wording does not =
explain this well.
>=20
> [Qin]: why we should tie service model definition with YANG, the =
service model is
> just a service template, you can use human readable language to =
express it or
> you
> Can use machine readable language to express it, it doesn't matter. =
Therefore, in
> some cases, you just need fill the service parameters in some kind of =
form and
> submit this form to the server for further parsing and interpretation.

I think we might go for "it can be used by a human via a user interface =
such as a GUI, web form, or CLI" to cover the meaning.

What we are really doing is distinguishing between human control (by =
whatever means) and application (i.e., autonomous software) control.

> > *** Page 3:
> >
> >    The encoding and communication protocol used to exchange a =
service
> >    model between customer and network operator are deployment- and
> >    implementation-specific.  The IETF recommends the use of the =
NETCONF
> >    Configuration Protocol [RFC4741] with data encoded in XML or JSON
> > for
> >    interactions "on the wire" between software components.  However,
> > co-
> >    located software components might use an API, while systems with
> > more
> >    direct huan interactions might use web pages or even paper forms.
> >
> > [ms] I am not sure if the IETF should suggest the use of NETCONF on
> > the northbound interface of a "service orchestrator", which seems to
> > be the scope of this document. Are there pointers to running code =
that
> > actually do that? I would rather prefer a wording such as "The IETF
> > has standardized NETCONF and RESTCONF for interactions "on the wire"
> > between software components".
> >
> > [Qin]: You are right, I think RESCONF is recommended on the =
northbound
> > interface of a service orchestrator, your proposed change looks =
good.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > *** Page 7:
> >
> >    o  The network operator may use further data models that help to
> >       describe how the service is realized in the network.  These
> > models
> >       might be used on the interface between the Service =
Orchestrator
> >       and the Network Orchestrator as shown in Figure 3 and might
> >       include many of the pieces of information in the service model
> >       alongside protocol parameters and device configuratin
> > information.
> >       It is important that the Service Orchestrator should be able =
to
> >       map from a service model to these data models, but they are =
not
> >       the same things.
> >
> > [ms] Why is it not possible that the data models are the same? In
> > Figure 3, the "service orchestrator" is actually a "client" (read =
this
> > as "customer") of the "network orchestrators". Inside an operator, =
the
> > "service orchestrator" could be operated by a different organization
> > than the "network orchestrator", i.e., there ould even be a business
> > relationship. In general, architectures can be recursive. I think =
this
> > statement requires further explanation or rewording.
> >
> > [Qin]: The concept to split Orchestrator into service orchestrator =
and
> > network orchestrator, is the service orchestrator is network =
agnostic
> > while network orchestrator is network aware.
> > Service model consumed by the service orchestrator could be =
different
> > from the data model consumed by network orchestrator since network
> > orchestrator need to decide what network device is selected, which
> > protocol is enabled, which technology is used, which network =
interface
> > or port is assigned. The service orchestrator doesn't need to care
> > about the underlying technology or what protocol is available.
>=20
> [ms2] You may want to add that assumption more explicitly to the text =
and
> possibly add that this is only one potential architecture.
>=20
> [Qin]: We give two optional architecture in the figure 2 and figure 3, =
let us know if
> there is any potential architecture we are missing.

Additionally, we tried to capture this in Section 5.

> > *** Page 7:
> >
> >    o  Service Level Agreements (SLAs) have a high degree of overlap
> > with
> >       the definition of sevices present in service models.  Requests
> > for
> >       specific bandwidth, for example, might be present in a service
> >       model, and agreement to deliver a service is a commitment to =
the
> >       description of the service in the service model, however, SLAs
> >       typically include a number of fine-grained details about how
> >       services are allowed to vary, by how much, and how often.  =
SLAs
> >       are also linked to commercial terms with penalties and so =
forth,
> >       and so are also not good topics for standardization.
> >
> > [ms] I wonder if it could make sense to distinguish between SLA and
> > Service Level Objective (SLO) or Service Level Requirement (SLR).
> > While I agree that it is difficult to standardize commercial terms,
> > this IMHO partly contradicts the positioning of the term "service
> > model" earlier in the document. Maybe the scope of the definition of =
"service
> model"
> > has to be narrowed down?
> >
> > [Qin]: We have clarified what the service is in the section 2 and =
Our
> > service model definition aligns with service definition. Yes, we =
need
> > to distinguish SLA from Service Level Objective/Requirement, but not
> > necessary introduce another new term. We have clarified their
> > difference in the text you quoted.
>=20
> [ms2] Well, I think you should comment on SLAs in Section 2 to avoid =
confusion.
>=20
> [Qin]: Done, see above.
>=20
> > *** page 9:
> >
> > 6.4.  Supporting Multiple Services
> >
> >    Network operators will, in general, offer many different services =
to
> >    their customers.  Each would normally be the subject of a =
separate
> >    service model.
> >
> > [ms] The actual question here is if there could be communality =
between
> > service models for similar services. That problem cannot be solved =
by
> > this document but the text could e.g. explain that for a customer it
> > can be confusing if separate service models model related concepts =
in
> > different ways.
> >
> > [Qin]: That is a good question, I hope some building blocks =
specified
> > by one service model can be reused in another service model.
> > Unfortunately we don't have too many YANG models that are used to
> > model service in the IETF. We could cover this in the next version =
if
> > more such service models are needed.

Agree with both of you.
We're still playing with our first few service models so it is hard to =
guess how this will pan out. But I suspect that the "building block" =
approach will be what we end up with.

Best,
Adrian


From nobody Thu Jul 14 01:14:34 2016
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From: Zhoutianran <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts
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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 08:14:14 +0000
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Hi Dan,

Thank you for the reply. That makes me clear now.
I was once interested on the cloud VPN solution. The customer provisioned v=
irtual private cloud can automatically joins(attach to) the existing enterp=
rise VPN.
I think the scenario also fit in this framework. It might be one use case c=
onsidered in your draft.

Regards,
Tianran

From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com]
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 5:20 PM
To: Zhoutianran; opsawg@ietf.org
Cc: Unbehagen Jr, Paul E (Paul)
Subject: RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi Tianran,

Thank you for the reading and for the comments.

Your observation is very correct and it relates to something that we failed=
 to explain in enough details in the I-D. The AA controller in the diagram =
should not be regarded as a 'super-controller' across administrative domain=
s, but rather as a policy function that applies to the network and may be i=
nstantiated in different ways. The 'vertical' data model (6) in the diagram=
 does not carry the same information to AACs and AASs. There are two possib=
le scenarios here:


1.      The AA controller connects only to the AAS and configures the mappi=
ng policies on the network devices. Clients are configured mainly by the ho=
rizontal interaction - this will be true also in most of the IoT scenarios

2.      Both AAS and AACs connect to the AA controller function. The client=
s get authentication and local security and local services information from=
 the controller (what services are available, how you configure to them). S=
ervers perform same functionality as in #1. The implementation of the contr=
oller may be distributed, possibly with an 'orchestration' function in-betw=
een. This fits for example the BYOD use cases.

I hope this clarifies both comments. I will make one slide to address the c=
omments at the meeting, and include a more detailed description for the nex=
t round of I-Ds.

Regards,

Dan


From: Zhoutianran [mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 5:29 AM
To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi Dan,

I am reading the framework draft. Here are some initial comments:

1. In figure 1, the AA controller has connection to both AA client and AA s=
erver. I think it's not practical in many cases. AAC and AAS, IMHO, are usu=
ally in different administrative domains. For example, AAC installed on a C=
E, and the AAS installed on the PE. Usually, CE and PE are controlled by di=
fferent domain controllers. It's hard to deploy a super controller for CE a=
nd PE. Another example is, as you showed, the IoT. It's not practical to le=
t all the end devices connect to the AA controller.
Here, what scenario did you consider for this framework?
The suggestion, if I am right, is to have the AA controller only connect to=
 the AAS. AAC can pull additional information from the path: AA controller-=
>AAS->AAC.

2. If both AAC and AAS connect to the AA controller, that means the AAC and=
 AAS can be synchronized and configured by the management plane. So I guess=
 some of the control plane function between AAC and AAS can be reduced.


Regards,
Tianran

From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (=
Dan)
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:58 AM
To: opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi,

I have submitted two new Internet-Draft that describe the automatic attachm=
ent functionality:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-framewo=
rk/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dframework_&d=3DCwMFAg=
&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA=
&m=3D5FKNb8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&s=3DcIIUowtv3UQgUn-Qtt5JuJ=
xjJuRAd3TyrJTLmoAiGmw&e=3D>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-lldp/<h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_=
doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dlldp_&d=3DCwMFAg&c=3DBFpWQ=
w8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA&m=3D5FKNb=
8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&s=3DkfxeNRG9cQnc_CpNcRKkee83AoXcactq=
6q8ii6Itgs8&e=3D>

Principal changes:

- addressing the comments received at IETF 95  we split the generic protoco=
l-independent framework that describes the discovery and service mapping me=
chanism in a separate I-D

- we clarified terminology and re-drawn the principal building blocks
- we connected the discovery and authentication mechanism with the MUD prop=
osal

Questions and comments are welcome.

Thanks and Regards,

Dan


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Dan,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thank you for the reply. That=
 makes me clear now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">I was once interested on the =
cloud VPN solution. The customer provisioned virtual private cloud can auto=
matically joins(attach to) the existing enterprise
 VPN.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">I think the scenario also fit=
 in this framework. It might be one use case considered in your draft.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tianran<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 11, 2016 5:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Zhoutianran; opsawg@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Unbehagen Jr, Paul E (Paul)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Tian=
ran,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thank y=
ou for the reading and for the comments.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Your ob=
servation is very correct and it relates to something that we failed to exp=
lain in enough details in the I-D. The AA controller in the diagram should =
not be regarded as a &#8216;super-controller&#8217;
 across administrative domains, but rather as a policy function that applie=
s to the network and may be instantiated in different ways. The &#8216;vert=
ical&#8217; data model (6) in the diagram does not carry the same informati=
on to AACs and AASs. There are two possible
 scenarios here: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">=
<span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>The AA controller connects only to the AAS and configures the mapping poli=
cies on the network devices. Clients are configured mainly by the horizonta=
l interaction &#8211; this will be true also
 in most of the IoT scenarios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">=
<span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New=
 Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>Both AAS and AACs connect to the AA controller function. The clients get a=
uthentication and local security and local services information from the co=
ntroller (what services are available,
 how you configure to them). Servers perform same functionality as in #1. T=
he implementation of the controller may be distributed, possibly with an &#=
8216;orchestration&#8217; function in-between. This fits for example the BY=
OD use cases.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I hope =
this clarifies both comments. I will make one slide to address the comments=
 at the meeting, and include a more detailed description for the next round=
 of I-Ds.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dan<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Zhoutianran [<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com=
">mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 8, 2016 5:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Romascanu, Dan (Dan); <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@=
ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Dan,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am reading the framework dr=
aft. Here are some initial comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">1. In figure 1, the AA contro=
ller has connection to both AA client and AA server. I think it&#8217;s not=
 practical in many cases. AAC and AAS, IMHO, are usually
 in different administrative domains. For example, AAC installed on a CE, a=
nd the AAS installed on the PE. Usually, CE and PE are controlled by differ=
ent domain controllers. It&#8217;s hard to deploy a super controller for CE=
 and PE. Another example is, as you showed,
 the IoT. It&#8217;s not practical to let all the end devices connect to th=
e AA controller.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Here, what scenario did you c=
onsider for this framework?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">The suggestion, if I am right=
, is to have the AA controller only connect to the AAS. AAC can pull additi=
onal information from the path: AA controller-&gt;AAS-&gt;AAC.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">2. If both AAC and AAS connec=
t to the AA controller, that means the AAC and AAS can be synchronized and =
configured by the management plane. So I guess some
 of the control plane function between AAC and AAS can be reduced.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tianran<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> OPSAWG [<a href=3D"mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org">ma=
ilto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I have submitted two new Intern=
et-Draft that describe the automatic attachment functionality:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dromasca=
nu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dframework_&amp;d=3DCwMFAg&amp;c=3DBFpWQw8bsuK=
pl1SgiZH64Q&amp;r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA&amp;m=3D5FK=
Nb8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&amp;s=3DcIIUowtv3UQgUn-Qtt5JuJxjJu=
RAd3TyrJTLmoAiGmw&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascan=
u-opsawg-auto-attach-framework/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dromasca=
nu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dlldp_&amp;d=3DCwMFAg&amp;c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1Sg=
iZH64Q&amp;r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA&amp;m=3D5FKNb8y6=
4EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&amp;s=3DkfxeNRG9cQnc_CpNcRKkee83AoXcact=
q6q8ii6Itgs8&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-ops=
awg-auto-attach-lldp/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Principal changes: <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- addressing the comments re=
ceived at IETF 95 &nbsp;we split the generic protocol-independent framework=
 that describes the discovery and service mapping mechanism in a separate I=
-D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- we clarified terminology a=
nd re-drawn the principal building blocks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">- we connected the discovery an=
d authentication mechanism with the MUD proposal
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Questions and comments are welc=
ome. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks and Regards,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: Zhoutianran <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts
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Hi Tianran,

Thanks again for your reading and comments.

The attachment of customer provisioned  virtual private cloud to and enterp=
rise VPN is indeed another use case to consider. I believe that I2NSF may h=
ave looked at some aspects of provisioning policies and attaching virtual s=
ervices to an existing enterprise network, the AA scheme can be a path to r=
ealize this.

Regards,

Dan


From: Zhoutianran [mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 11:14 AM
To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); opsawg@ietf.org
Cc: Unbehagen Jr, Paul E (Paul)
Subject: RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi Dan,

Thank you for the reply. That makes me clear now.
I was once interested on the cloud VPN solution. The customer provisioned v=
irtual private cloud can automatically joins(attach to) the existing enterp=
rise VPN.
I think the scenario also fit in this framework. It might be one use case c=
onsidered in your draft.

Regards,
Tianran

From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com]
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 5:20 PM
To: Zhoutianran; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>
Cc: Unbehagen Jr, Paul E (Paul)
Subject: RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi Tianran,

Thank you for the reading and for the comments.

Your observation is very correct and it relates to something that we failed=
 to explain in enough details in the I-D. The AA controller in the diagram =
should not be regarded as a 'super-controller' across administrative domain=
s, but rather as a policy function that applies to the network and may be i=
nstantiated in different ways. The 'vertical' data model (6) in the diagram=
 does not carry the same information to AACs and AASs. There are two possib=
le scenarios here:


1.       The AA controller connects only to the AAS and configures the mapp=
ing policies on the network devices. Clients are configured mainly by the h=
orizontal interaction - this will be true also in most of the IoT scenarios

2.       Both AAS and AACs connect to the AA controller function. The clien=
ts get authentication and local security and local services information fro=
m the controller (what services are available, how you configure to them). =
Servers perform same functionality as in #1. The implementation of the cont=
roller may be distributed, possibly with an 'orchestration' function in-bet=
ween. This fits for example the BYOD use cases.

I hope this clarifies both comments. I will make one slide to address the c=
omments at the meeting, and include a more detailed description for the nex=
t round of I-Ds.

Regards,

Dan


From: Zhoutianran [mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 5:29 AM
To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi Dan,

I am reading the framework draft. Here are some initial comments:

1. In figure 1, the AA controller has connection to both AA client and AA s=
erver. I think it's not practical in many cases. AAC and AAS, IMHO, are usu=
ally in different administrative domains. For example, AAC installed on a C=
E, and the AAS installed on the PE. Usually, CE and PE are controlled by di=
fferent domain controllers. It's hard to deploy a super controller for CE a=
nd PE. Another example is, as you showed, the IoT. It's not practical to le=
t all the end devices connect to the AA controller.
Here, what scenario did you consider for this framework?
The suggestion, if I am right, is to have the AA controller only connect to=
 the AAS. AAC can pull additional information from the path: AA controller-=
>AAS->AAC.

2. If both AAC and AAS connect to the AA controller, that means the AAC and=
 AAS can be synchronized and configured by the management plane. So I guess=
 some of the control plane function between AAC and AAS can be reduced.


Regards,
Tianran

From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (=
Dan)
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:58 AM
To: opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts

Hi,

I have submitted two new Internet-Draft that describe the automatic attachm=
ent functionality:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-framewo=
rk/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dframework_&d=3DCwMFAg=
&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA=
&m=3D5FKNb8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&s=3DcIIUowtv3UQgUn-Qtt5JuJ=
xjJuRAd3TyrJTLmoAiGmw&e=3D>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-lldp/<h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_=
doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dlldp_&d=3DCwMFAg&c=3DBFpWQ=
w8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdrphpBsFA&m=3D5FKNb=
8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&s=3DkfxeNRG9cQnc_CpNcRKkee83AoXcactq=
6q8ii6Itgs8&e=3D>

Principal changes:

- addressing the comments received at IETF 95  we split the generic protoco=
l-independent framework that describes the discovery and service mapping me=
chanism in a separate I-D

- we clarified terminology and re-drawn the principal building blocks
- we connected the discovery and authentication mechanism with the MUD prop=
osal

Questions and comments are welcome.

Thanks and Regards,

Dan


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Tianran,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks again for your =
reading and comments.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The attachment of cust=
omer provisioned&nbsp; virtual private cloud to and enterprise VPN is indee=
d another use case to consider. I believe that I2NSF may have looked at som=
e aspects of provisioning policies and attaching
 virtual services to an existing enterprise network, the AA scheme can be a=
 path to realize this.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dan<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Zhoutian=
ran [mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 14, 2016 11:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Romascanu, Dan (Dan); opsawg@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Unbehagen Jr, Paul E (Paul)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Hi Dan,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Thank you for the=
 reply. That makes me clear now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">I was once intere=
sted on the cloud VPN solution. The customer provisioned virtual private cl=
oud can automatically joins(attach to) the existing
 enterprise VPN.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">I think the scena=
rio also fit in this framework. It might be one use case considered in your=
 draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Regards,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Tianran<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">From:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"> Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">mailto:dromasca@avaya.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 11, 2016 5:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Zhoutianran; <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Unbehagen Jr, Paul E (Paul)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN">Hi Tianran,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN">Thank you for the reading and for the comments.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN">Your observation is very correct and it relates to something that we f=
ailed to explain in enough details in the I-D. The AA controller in the dia=
gram should not be regarded as a &#8216;super-controller&#8217;
 across administrative domains, but rather as a policy function that applie=
s to the network and may be instantiated in different ways. The &#8216;vert=
ical&#8217; data model (6) in the diagram does not carry the same informati=
on to AACs and AASs. There are two possible
 scenarios here: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-lang=
uage:ZH-CN"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">The AA controller connects only to th=
e AAS and configures the mapping policies on the network devices. Clients a=
re configured mainly by the horizontal
 interaction &#8211; this will be true also in most of the IoT scenarios<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-lang=
uage:ZH-CN"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Both AAS and AACs connect to the AA c=
ontroller function. The clients get authentication and local security and l=
ocal services information from the controller
 (what services are available, how you configure to them). Servers perform =
same functionality as in #1. The implementation of the controller may be di=
stributed, possibly with an &#8216;orchestration&#8217; function in-between=
. This fits for example the BYOD use cases.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN">I hope this clarifies both comments. I will make one slide to address =
the comments at the meeting, and include a more detailed description for th=
e next round of I-Ds.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN">Dan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">From:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"> Zhoutianran [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:zhoutianran@huawei.com">mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 8, 2016 5:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Romascanu, Dan (Dan); <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@=
ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Hi Dan,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">I am reading the =
framework draft. Here are some initial comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">1. In figure 1, t=
he AA controller has connection to both AA client and AA server. I think it=
&#8217;s not practical in many cases. AAC and AAS, IMHO,
 are usually in different administrative domains. For example, AAC installe=
d on a CE, and the AAS installed on the PE. Usually, CE and PE are controll=
ed by different domain controllers. It&#8217;s hard to deploy a super contr=
oller for CE and PE. Another example is,
 as you showed, the IoT. It&#8217;s not practical to let all the end device=
s connect to the AA controller.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Here, what scenar=
io did you consider for this framework?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">The suggestion, i=
f I am right, is to have the AA controller only connect to the AAS. AAC can=
 pull additional information from the path: AA
 controller-&gt;AAS-&gt;AAC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">2. If both AAC an=
d AAS connect to the AA controller, that means the AAC and AAS can be synch=
ronized and configured by the management plane.
 So I guess some of the control plane function between AAC and AAS can be r=
educed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Regards,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Tianran<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">From:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"> OPSAWG [<a href=3D"mailto:ops=
awg-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [OPSAWG] a new version of the automatic attachment drafts<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Hi,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">I have su=
bmitted two new Internet-Draft that describe the automatic attachment funct=
ionality:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dframework_&amp;d=3DCw=
MFAg&amp;c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&amp;r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRu=
cPvdrphpBsFA&amp;m=3D5FKNb8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&amp;s=3DcI=
IUowtv3UQgUn-Qtt5JuJxjJuRAd3TyrJTLmoAiGmw&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-framework/</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dromascanu-2Dopsawg-2Dauto-2Dattach-2Dlldp_&amp;d=3DCwMFAg&=
amp;c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&amp;r=3DI4dzGxR31OcNXCJfQzvlsiLQfucBXRucPvdr=
phpBsFA&amp;m=3D5FKNb8y64EQaQBIAzZciKWnxOznvGh_XbikFD3KVv24&amp;s=3DkfxeNRG=
9cQnc_CpNcRKkee83AoXcactq6q8ii6Itgs8&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-romascanu-opsawg-auto-attach-lldp/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Principal=
 changes: <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">- addr=
essing the comments received at IETF 95 &nbsp;we split the generic protocol=
-independent framework that describes the discovery and service mapping mec=
hanism in a separate I-D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">- we c=
larified terminology and re-drawn the principal building blocks<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">- we conn=
ected the discovery and authentication mechanism with the MUD proposal
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Questions=
 and comments are welcome.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Thanks an=
d Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Dan<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA7523B991AZFFEXMB04globa_--


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From: "Douglas Gash (dcmgash)" <dcmgash@cisco.com>
To: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version of T+ informational note has been uploaded
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Subject: [OPSAWG] New Version of T+ informational note has been uploaded
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Hello all.

A new version of the T+ informational note has been uploaded.

For information:=20

Version 3 loaded last week has many revisions from the last round of
comments.
Version 4 loaded this week has some minor mods/clarifications on US-ASCII
vs UTF-8.

Would appreciate any further reviews.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-04



Many thanks!

Author team.


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Hi,

> I have just read through your draft. In my opinion, it would be very
> useful to have a standardized way to provide configuration profiles to
> users. Looking through the draft and the yang file, I came up with the
> following notes:

Thanks for these! Answers inline:

> Comments on the draft:
>  - it would be useful if subject alt match could be configured
>    for usage with e.g. EAP-TTLS

The settings in the draft are generic in the sense that they apply to
multiple EAP methods (and possibly non-EAP uses). The
ServerSideCredential/ServerID in particular contains the abstract notion
of "the name of the server".
It is up to the EAP method to define which property of the incoming
certificate, or what else, is matched against that (method-agnostic) name=
=2E

As an example, Microsoft's PEAP spec pinpoint the Common Name - i.e. the
EAP method does not allow subjectAltName to be used for matching. There
is no leeway to tell via config file that you'd /wish/ the
subjectAltName is used if the EAP method's spec does not allow it.

TTLS (RFC5281)  by contrary does not specify whether Common Name or
subjectAltName is used; this is left to the implementation.

TEAP (RFC7170) in its 7.6 specifies that subjectAltName is to be used
(with a fallback to NO validation) - the Common Name is not even consider=
ed.

EAP-pwd (RFC5931) has the notion of a server identity, but the EAP
method does not make use of PKI certificates, and has neither a Common
Name nor a subjectAltName to check against. It has its own provisions in
the protocol to send a server name to the EAP peer.

These examples illustrate that it's the EAP method's business to define
what a "server name" is and how it's supposed to be checked.

So, indicating this in config during provisioning time actually seems
not very useful.

I reckon I can collapse ServerName and ServerHandle BTW, they nicely
coincide in this abstract thinking.

>  - how would the private key for a client certificate be stored,
>    also in `cert-data`? I don't see another suitable field

Yes; the file format would be P12.

>  - which information does `allow-save` apply to? If it applies to
>    the private key of a client certificate, how would public
>    key authentication work without storing it?

It applies to the Password and/or Passphrase elements, if present.

It is up to the implementation if Passphrase allow-save leads to
a) the encrypted private key stored along with the decrytion passphrase
b) the unencrypted private key gets stored in a credential store

(because storing the encrypted data and the key to it together does not
provide material extra security over unencrypted storage in the first pla=
ce)

The question of an unencrypted private key in the config file does not
arise - there are only three formats specified: PEM and DER do not carry
private keys, an P12 requires a passphrase.

>  - can you provide a usecase for the `valid-until` field?

Absolutely! Credentials expire after a while. If you bought a Wi-Fi
access scratch card for two weeks, then the account will stop working
after two weeks. BUT: your device does not know that. It has a saved
connection and will try to authenticate with this username and password
for eternity.

On the client side, this bumping into walls drains battery etc.
On the server side, over time more and more expired accounts build up
and hammer the server with TLS negotiations which are bound to fail. The
cryptographic operations make the server more and more busy over time,
for no reason. This is a real-life problem.

So, if you know about the longevity of the credential at provisioning
time, it is very useful to tell the device about it.

The device can then decide to delete the config at that point in time,
or at least to watch the authn states in the future: consistent rejected
auths past the valid-until time should lead to de-provisioning or asking
the user to investigate his account.

Writing all this, maybe it would be useful to beef this up in the sense
of having an extra qualifier "Hard Expiry" (=3Ddevice can automatically
delete credential at point in time) and "Soft Expiry" (=3Ddevice should
merely start to become suspicious and watch out for continuous failed
auths).

That latter case could be a student account initially valid for one
semester, but the student /may/ have re-enrolled, keeping the account
active.

>  - it is not obvious to me how the current model applies to VPN or
>    E-Mail Server connections as named in the draft

VPN needs more work for sure. And I tend to think it's better to forget
about E-Mail; it's a rathole for gazillions of services and the spec
would quickly become unmanageable. Concentrating at network connectivity
is probably the best way forward.

>  - it is not clear to me how an anonymous identify for EAP-TTLS or
>    EAP-PEAP would be configured

That would be AuthenticationMethod / EAPClientSideCredential /
AnonymousIdentity

while the actual user identifier is in

AuthenticationMethod / InnerAuthenticationMethod /
EAPClientSideCredential / (reference to ClientSideCredential)

>  - I think it would be useful to have some consideration, either in
>    this or another document, about how the files procuded according to
>    this model should be processed, i.e. requirements on how their
>    authenticity must be verified, how they should be displayed to the
>    users and in what configuration they should actually result.

True. You will have noticed chapter 4 on Issuer Authentication,
Integrity Protection and Encryption: "Decisions TBD" :-)

UI is also worth considering; e.g. unauthenticated files should be
presented with a warning that all the content could be a lie from
someone you don't know (hiding or marginalising the ProviderInfo
elements); authenticated ones could prominently display the name and
logo of the provider, etc.

> Yang related:
>  - there is a type leafref which should probably used when referring
>    to config parts by UUID
>  - there are types for ipv4 and ipv6 addresses that should be used
>    instead of string
>  - list IPAddress has dynamic and static as keys, keys need to be
>    unique, so how to enable both dhcpv4 and dhcpv6? Same thing e.g.
>    for DNS

All of those are due to my ignorant misunderstanding of YANG :-) In
particular the last one gave me headache and I submitted this rev
knowing it's not good: The "IPAddress" field should be allowed to
contain numerous occurences of DynamicAddress and/or StaticAddress. I
don't want it to need a key for that, but YANG seems to insist on this.

Same for StaticAddress: this can be an IPv4 XOR an IPv6 address, and
should be allowed to occur multiple times. list leaf IPAddress "string"
kind of got the job done, but lacks some sophistication.

In short: I'm in need of a YANG expert :-)

Greetings,

Stefan Winter

--=20
Stefan WINTER
Ingenieur de Recherche
Fondation RESTENA - R=C3=A9seau T=C3=A9l=C3=A9informatique de l'Education=
 Nationale et de la Recherche
2, avenue de l'Universit=C3=A9
L-4365 Esch-sur-Alzette

Tel: +352 424409 1
Fax: +352 422473

PGP key updated to 4096 Bit RSA - I will encrypt all mails if the recipie=
nt's key is known to me

http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=3Dget&search=3D0xC0DE6A358A39DC66


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From nobody Fri Jul 15 08:25:02 2016
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version of T+ informational note has been uploaded
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On Jul 14, 2016, at 2:30 PM, Douglas Gash (dcmgash) <dcmgash@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hello
> For information:=20
>=20
> Version 3 loaded last week has many revisions from the last round of
> comments.
> Version 4 loaded this week has some minor mods/clarifications on =
US-ASCII
> vs UTF-8.
>=20
> Would appreciate any further reviews.

  Many of my review comments have been addressed, which is good.  There =
still remains a number of issues.

  The Security Considerations section is in the middle of the document, =
where it's typically at the end.  That's a minor nit.  The larger one is =
that the Security Considerations section is pretty minimal.  It should =
describe operational issues with the protocol, and comments as to what =
the security implications are for network management traffic to be sent =
in the clear.

  The issue with the field names remains.  I *suspect* the "user len" =
field contains the length of the "user" field... but there is nothing in =
the document which says so.

  The text still seems philosophical to me, instead of prescriptive.  =
For example in Section 3.6:

   After a packet body is decrypted, the lengths of the component values
   in the packet should be summed and checked against the cleartext
   datalength value from the header.  Any packets which fail this check
   should be discarded and an error signalled.

  The values "should" be summed?  Is that an RFC 2119 statement?  Or =
just a suggestion?  What happens if an implementation chooses to ignore =
this suggestion?

  And bad packets "should" be discarded?  Why not MUST?  How does an =
error get signalled?  What kind of error packet gets sent back?

  Perhaps something like this would be better:

   After a packet body is decrypted, the lengths of the component values
   in the packet are summed.  If the sum is not identical to the =
cleartext
   datalength value from the header,
   the packet MUST be discarded, and an error signalled.  The
   underlying TCP connection SHOULD also be closed.

  Which (for me) clarifies the operation, makes the checks normative, =
and adds a suggestion to close the TCP connection.  After all, if they =
key is wrong and packets can't be decrypted, there's no reason to keep =
the TCP connection open.  You can't decrypt any data in the connection, =
so it will all be garbage.

  Alan DeKok.


From nobody Fri Jul 15 08:38:41 2016
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On Jul 15, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com> =
wrote:
>  The Security Considerations section is in the middle of the document, =
where it's typically at the end.  That's a minor nit.  The larger one is =
that the Security Considerations section is pretty minimal.  It should =
describe operational issues with the protocol, and comments as to what =
the security implications are for network management traffic to be sent =
in the clear.

  For example:

Security Considerations

This specification describes a protocol as originally designed in 199X, =
and as such does not use modern security practices.  A later document =
will update TACACS+ to meet modern security standards.

There are a number of issues with the protocol design and common =
use-cases.  The most significant are issues related to privacy and =
authentication.  The protocol includes an obfuscation mechanism referred =
to in the original draft as Body Encryption.  This obfuscation method =
has not had security analysis, and should be assumed to be broken.  =
Portions of the protocol are sent clear-text, while others are sent =
obfuscated.  An attacker may be able to modify the clear-text portions =
without detection.

When the obfuscation mechanism is not used, the protocol is entirely =
unauthenticated.  Anyone capable of spoofing or intercepting traffic for =
the source or destination of the TCP connection can masqeurade as the =
client or server without detection.  This attack would allow a malicious =
after unrestricted access to the management devices allegedly =
"protected" by this protocol.

When the obfuscation mechanism is not used, the protocol is also =
completely open.  All traffic is visible to an eavesdropper, which can =
leak information about the network.  An eavesdropper may also be able to =
intercept, and modify, packets without detection.


  etc.  The section should list the possible attacks, and how to defend =
against them.

  Alan DeKok


From nobody Fri Jul 15 12:32:17 2016
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From: "Douglas Gash (dcmgash)" <dcmgash@cisco.com>
To: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] New Version of T+ informational note has been uploaded
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version of T+ informational note has been uploaded
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Thank you again Alan for more quality feedback!

Regards,

Doug

> On 15 Jul 2016, at 16:38, Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Jul 15, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com> wro=
te:
>> The Security Considerations section is in the middle of the document, wh=
ere it's typically at the end.  That's a minor nit.  The larger one is that=
 the Security Considerations section is pretty minimal.  It should describe=
 operational issues with the protocol, and comments as to what the security=
 implications are for network management traffic to be sent in the clear.
>=20
>  For example:
>=20
> Security Considerations
>=20
> This specification describes a protocol as originally designed in 199X, a=
nd as such does not use modern security practices.  A later document will u=
pdate TACACS+ to meet modern security standards.
>=20
> There are a number of issues with the protocol design and common use-case=
s.  The most significant are issues related to privacy and authentication. =
 The protocol includes an obfuscation mechanism referred to in the original=
 draft as Body Encryption.  This obfuscation method has not had security an=
alysis, and should be assumed to be broken.  Portions of the protocol are s=
ent clear-text, while others are sent obfuscated.  An attacker may be able =
to modify the clear-text portions without detection.
>=20
> When the obfuscation mechanism is not used, the protocol is entirely unau=
thenticated.  Anyone capable of spoofing or intercepting traffic for the so=
urce or destination of the TCP connection can masqeurade as the client or s=
erver without detection.  This attack would allow a malicious after unrestr=
icted access to the management devices allegedly "protected" by this protoc=
ol.
>=20
> When the obfuscation mechanism is not used, the protocol is also complete=
ly open.  All traffic is visible to an eavesdropper, which can leak informa=
tion about the network.  An eavesdropper may also be able to intercept, and=
 modify, packets without detection.
>=20
>=20
>  etc.  The section should list the possible attacks, and how to defend ag=
ainst them.
>=20
>  Alan DeKok
>=20


From nobody Mon Jul 18 01:39:42 2016
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From: Zhoutianran <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
To: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "opsawg-chairs@ietf.org" <opsawg-chairs@ietf.org>
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<p>Hi All,</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>The meeting agenda is here:</p>
<p><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/96/agenda/opsawg/">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/96/agenda/opsawg/</a></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Welcome to join us for the discussion.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Could the speakers please send your slides to the chairs before the meet=
ing?</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Warren &amp; Tianran</p>
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From nobody Tue Jul 19 01:18:27 2016
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To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <OpsAWG@ietf.org>
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
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Qin,

Explaining the difference between a service and network element YANG 
modules is the objective of 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification/

Abstract

    The YANG [RFC6020] data modeling language is currently being
    considered for a wide variety of applications throughout the
    networking industry at large.  Many standards-defining organizations
    (SDOs), open source software projects, vendors and users are using
    YANG to develop and publish YANG modules of configuration, state data
    and operations for a wide variety of applications.  At the same time,
    there is currently no well-known terminology to categorize various
    types of YANG modules.

    A consistent terminology would help with the categorization of YANG
    modules, assist in the analysis the YANG data modeling efforts in the
    IETF and other organizations, and bring clarity to the YANG-related
    discussions between the different groups.

    This document describes a set of concepts and associated terms to
    support consistent classification of YANG modules.

Regards, Benoit
> Hi,
> We have submitted a new I-D that discusses the scope and purpose of service models within
> the IETF and describes how a service model can be used by a network
> operator.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/
>
> In addition, this draft clarifies the role and position of service model in the SDN architecture and
> Clear several misconception on the service model.
>
> Your questions and comments are welcome.
>
> Regards!
> -Qin
> -----邮件原件-----
> 发件人: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> 发送时间: 2016年7月5日 19:55
> 收件人: Liushucheng (Will); Adrian Farrel; Liushucheng (Will); Qin Wu
> 主题: New Version Notification for draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Qin Wu and posted to the IETF repository.
>
> Name:		draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained
> Revision:	00
> Title:		Service Models Explained
> Document date:	2016-07-05
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		12
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>     The IETF has produced a considerable number of data models in the
>     YANG modelling language.  The majority of these are used to model
>     devices and they allow access for configuration and to read
>     operational status.
>
>     A small number of YANG models are used to model services (for
>     example, the Layer Three Virtual Private Network Service Model
>     produced by the L3SM working group).
>
>     This document briefly sets out the scope of and purpose of an IETF
>     service model, and it shows where a service model might fit into a
>     Software Defined Networking architecture or deployment.
>
>                                                                                    
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


--------------C35573E153621186543E0806
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Qin,<br>
      <br>
      Explaining the difference between a service and network element
      YANG modules is the objective of
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification/</a><br>
      <br>
      <pre><span class="m_h">Abstract</span>

   The YANG [RFC6020] data modeling language is currently being
   considered for a wide variety of applications throughout the
   networking industry at large.  Many standards-defining organizations
   (SDOs), open source software projects, vendors and users are using
   YANG to develop and publish YANG modules of configuration, state data
   and operations for a wide variety of applications.  At the same time,
   there is currently no well-known terminology to categorize various
   types of YANG modules.

   A consistent terminology would help with the categorization of YANG
   modules, assist in the analysis the YANG data modeling efforts in the
   IETF and other organizations, and bring clarity to the YANG-related
   discussions between the different groups.

   This document describes a set of concepts and associated terms to
   support consistent classification of YANG modules.
</pre>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA85366132@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Hi,
We have submitted a new I-D that discusses the scope and purpose of service models within
the IETF and describes how a service model can be used by a network
operator.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/</a>

In addition, this draft clarifies the role and position of service model in the SDN architecture and
Clear several misconception on the service model.

Your questions and comments are welcome.

Regards!
-Qin
-----邮件原件-----
发件人: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>] 
发送时间: 2016年7月5日 19:55
收件人: Liushucheng (Will); Adrian Farrel; Liushucheng (Will); Qin Wu
主题: New Version Notification for draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Qin Wu and posted to the IETF repository.

Name:		draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained
Revision:	00
Title:		Service Models Explained
Document date:	2016-07-05
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		12
URL:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt</a>
Status:         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/</a>
Htmlized:       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00</a>


Abstract:
   The IETF has produced a considerable number of data models in the
   YANG modelling language.  The majority of these are used to model
   devices and they allow access for configuration and to read
   operational status.

   A small number of YANG models are used to model services (for
   example, the Layer Three Virtual Private Network Service Model
   produced by the L3SM working group).

   This document briefly sets out the scope of and purpose of an IETF
   service model, and it shows where a service model might fit into a
   Software Defined Networking architecture or deployment.

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

_______________________________________________
OPSAWG mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OPSAWG@ietf.org">OPSAWG@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------C35573E153621186543E0806--


From nobody Tue Jul 19 01:28:18 2016
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/opsawg/9oWWlYX63XsDH4n7IxS0VjOeIO0>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
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Benoit,
=20
I think that you mean to say "is *an* objective of". That is, the draft =
you point at has a far wider scope and purpose.
=20
No problem with that.
=20
Doing our work in L3SM we repeatedly encountered confusion about what a =
service model is and where it fits in the "hierarchy". So we wrote some =
text.
=20
Looking at our draft and Figure 1 in the yang-model-classification there =
is not complete coherence.
=20
Which way would like to go forward?
Roll our text into yang-model-classification?
Push forward separately?
=20
Adrian
=20
From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
Sent: 19 July 2016 09:18
To: Qin Wu; opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
=20
Qin,

Explaining the difference between a service and network element YANG =
modules is the objective of =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classificat=
ion/
Abstract
=20
   The YANG [RFC6020] data modeling language is currently being
   considered for a wide variety of applications throughout the
   networking industry at large.  Many standards-defining organizations
   (SDOs), open source software projects, vendors and users are using
   YANG to develop and publish YANG modules of configuration, state data
   and operations for a wide variety of applications.  At the same time,
   there is currently no well-known terminology to categorize various
   types of YANG modules.
=20
   A consistent terminology would help with the categorization of YANG
   modules, assist in the analysis the YANG data modeling efforts in the
   IETF and other organizations, and bring clarity to the YANG-related
   discussions between the different groups.
=20
   This document describes a set of concepts and associated terms to
   support consistent classification of YANG modules.
Regards, Benoit
Hi,
We have submitted a new I-D that discusses the scope and purpose of =
service models within
the IETF and describes how a service model can be used by a network
operator.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/=

=20
In addition, this draft clarifies the role and position of service model =
in the SDN architecture and
Clear several misconception on the service model.
=20
Your questions and comments are welcome.
=20
Regards!
-Qin
-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: internet-drafts@ietf.org =
[mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2016=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 =
19:55
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Liushucheng (Will); Adrian Farrel; =
Liushucheng (Will); Qin Wu
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
=20
=20
A new version of I-D, draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Qin Wu and posted to the IETF =
repository.
=20
Name:           draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained
Revision:       00
Title:          Service Models Explained
Document date:  2016-07-05
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          12
URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explai=
ned-00.txt
Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/=

Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00
=20
=20
Abstract:
   The IETF has produced a considerable number of data models in the
   YANG modelling language.  The majority of these are used to model
   devices and they allow access for configuration and to read
   operational status.
=20
   A small number of YANG models are used to model services (for
   example, the Layer Three Virtual Private Network Service Model
   produced by the L3SM working group).
=20
   This document briefly sets out the scope of and purpose of an IETF
   service model, and it shows where a service model might fit into a
   Software Defined Networking architecture or deployment.
=20
                                                                         =
        =20
=20
=20
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
=20
The IETF Secretariat
=20
_______________________________________________
OPSAWG mailing list
OPSAWG@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
=20

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Benoit,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>I think that you mean to say =
&quot;is *an* objective of&quot;. That is, the draft you point at has a =
far wider scope and purpose.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>No problem with =
that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Doing our work in L3SM we =
repeatedly encountered confusion about what a service model is and where =
it fits in the &quot;hierarchy&quot;. So we wrote some =
text.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Looking at our draft and =
Figure 1 in the yang-model-classification there is not complete =
coherence.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Which way would like to go =
forward?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Roll our text into =
yang-model-classification?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Push forward =
separately?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> =
OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Benoit =
Claise<br><b>Sent:</b> 19 July 2016 09:18<br><b>To:</b> Qin Wu; =
opsawg@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification =
for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Qin,<br><br>Explaining the difference between a service and =
network element YANG modules is the objective of <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-cla=
ssification/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-mod=
el-classification/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span =
class=3Dmh>Abstract</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><p=
re><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>The YANG =
[RFC6020] data modeling language is currently =
being<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>considered for a wide variety of applications throughout =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>networking industry at large.<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0 </span>Many standards-defining =
organizations<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>(SDOs), open source =
software projects, vendors and users are =
using<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>YANG to develop and publish YANG modules of configuration, state =
data<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>and operations for a wide variety of applications.<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0 </span>At the same =
time,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>there is currently no well-known terminology to categorize =
various<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>types of YANG =
modules.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>A consistent terminology =
would help with the categorization of YANG<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>modules, assist in the =
analysis the YANG data modeling efforts in =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>IETF and other organizations, and bring clarity to the =
YANG-related<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>discussions between the =
different groups.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>This document describes a =
set of concepts and associated terms to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>support consistent =
classification of YANG modules.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Regards, Benoit<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Hi,<o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre>We have submitted a new I-D that discusses the scope and purpose of =
service models within<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the IETF and describes how a =
service model can be used by a =
network<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>operator.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-ex=
plained/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-=
explained/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>In =
addition, this draft clarifies the role and position of service model in =
the SDN architecture and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Clear several =
misconception on the service =
model.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Your questions =
and comments are =
welcome.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Regards!<o:p></=
o:p></pre><pre>-Qin<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>-----<span =
style=3D'font-family:MingLiU;mso-bidi-font-family:MingLiU'>=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=
=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6</span>-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-family:MingLiU;mso-bidi-font-family:MingLiU'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=
=B6=E4=BA=BA</span>: <a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org<=
/a>] <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-family:MingLiU;mso-bidi-font-family:MingLiU'>=E5=8F=91=E9=80=
=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4</span>: 2016<span style=3D'font-family:"MS =
Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS Gothic"'>=E5=B9=B4</span>7<span =
style=3D'font-family:"MS Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS =
Gothic"'>=E6=9C=88</span>5<span style=3D'font-family:"MS =
Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS Gothic"'>=E6=97=A5</span> =
19:55<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'font-family:"MS =
Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS =
Gothic"'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span>: Liushucheng (Will); Adrian =
Farrel; Liushucheng (Will); Qin Wu<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-family:"MS Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS =
Gothic"'>=E4=B8=BB</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:MingLiU;mso-bidi-font-family:MingLiU'>=E9=A2=98</spa=
n>: New Version Notification for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>A new version of I-D, =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>has =
been successfully submitted by Qin Wu and posted to the IETF =
repository.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Name:<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:2'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Revis=
ion:<span style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>00<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Title:<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:2'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 </span>Service Models Explained<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Document =
date:<span style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>=C2=A0 =
</span>2016-07-05<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Group:<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:2'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 </span>Individual Submission<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Pages:<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:2'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 </span>12<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>URL:<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-service-mode=
l-explained-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-=
service-model-explained-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Status:<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 </span><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-ex=
plained/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-=
explained/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Htmlized:<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explain=
ed-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explaine=
d-00</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></pre><pre>Abstract:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>The IETF has produced a =
considerable number of data models in the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>YANG modelling =
language.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0 </span>The majority of =
these are used to model<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>devices and they allow =
access for configuration and to read<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>operational =
status.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>A small number of YANG =
models are used to model services (for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>example, the Layer Three =
Virtual Private Network Service Model<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>produced by the L3SM =
working group).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>This document briefly =
sets out the scope of and purpose of an IETF<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>service model, and it =
shows where a service model might fit into a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Software Defined =
Networking architecture or =
deployment.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Please note =
that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until =
the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>The =
IETF =
Secretariat<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>____________=
___________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>OPSAWG mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:OPSAWG@ietf.org">OPSAWG@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=
<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/opsawg</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'opsawg@ietf.org'" <OpsAWG@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 09:40:37 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/opsawg/8SdqcTEFmEpW9yk_dvOgKtjph70>
Subject: [OPSAWG] BTW draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained now at rev -01
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We only made a small change, but one thing we did was try to highlight a =
distinction between the model on the interface between customer and =
operator (a la L3SM) and the model on the interface between OSS/BSS/etc. =
and network orchestrator (which is what we see as YANG models in BESS, =
for example).
=20
Have a look at Figure 3.
=20
Adrian
=20
From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: 19 July 2016 09:28
To: 'Benoit Claise'; 'Qin Wu'; 'opsawg@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
=20
Benoit,
=20
I think that you mean to say "is *an* objective of". That is, the draft =
you point at has a far wider scope and purpose.
=20
No problem with that.
=20
Doing our work in L3SM we repeatedly encountered confusion about what a =
service model is and where it fits in the "hierarchy". So we wrote some =
text.
=20
Looking at our draft and Figure 1 in the yang-model-classification there =
is not complete coherence.
=20
Which way would like to go forward?
Roll our text into yang-model-classification?
Push forward separately?
=20
Adrian
=20
From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
Sent: 19 July 2016 09:18
To: Qin Wu; opsawg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
=20
Qin,

Explaining the difference between a service and network element YANG =
modules is the objective of =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classificat=
ion/
Abstract
=20
   The YANG [RFC6020] data modeling language is currently being
   considered for a wide variety of applications throughout the
   networking industry at large.  Many standards-defining organizations
   (SDOs), open source software projects, vendors and users are using
   YANG to develop and publish YANG modules of configuration, state data
   and operations for a wide variety of applications.  At the same time,
   there is currently no well-known terminology to categorize various
   types of YANG modules.
=20
   A consistent terminology would help with the categorization of YANG
   modules, assist in the analysis the YANG data modeling efforts in the
   IETF and other organizations, and bring clarity to the YANG-related
   discussions between the different groups.
=20
   This document describes a set of concepts and associated terms to
   support consistent classification of YANG modules.
Regards, Benoit
Hi,
We have submitted a new I-D that discusses the scope and purpose of =
service models within
the IETF and describes how a service model can be used by a network
operator.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/=

=20
In addition, this draft clarifies the role and position of service model =
in the SDN architecture and
Clear several misconception on the service model.
=20
Your questions and comments are welcome.
=20
Regards!
-Qin
-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: internet-drafts@ietf.org =
[mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2016=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 =
19:55
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Liushucheng (Will); Adrian Farrel; =
Liushucheng (Will); Qin Wu
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
=20
=20
A new version of I-D, draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Qin Wu and posted to the IETF =
repository.
=20
Name:          draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained
Revision:      00
Title:         Service Models Explained
Document date: 2016-07-05
Group:         Individual Submission
Pages:         12
URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explai=
ned-00.txt
Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained/=

Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00
=20
=20
Abstract:
   The IETF has produced a considerable number of data models in the
   YANG modelling language.  The majority of these are used to model
   devices and they allow access for configuration and to read
   operational status.
=20
   A small number of YANG models are used to model services (for
   example, the Layer Three Virtual Private Network Service Model
   produced by the L3SM working group).
=20
   This document briefly sets out the scope of and purpose of an IETF
   service model, and it shows where a service model might fit into a
   Software Defined Networking architecture or deployment.
=20
                                                                         =
        =20
=20
=20
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
=20
The IETF Secretariat
=20
_______________________________________________
OPSAWG mailing list
OPSAWG@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
=20

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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-=
font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>We only made a small change, but one thing we did =
was try to highlight a distinction between the model on the interface =
between customer and operator (a la L3SM) and the model on the interface =
between OSS/BSS/etc. and network orchestrator (which is what we see as =
YANG models in BESS, for example).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-=
font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-=
font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Have a look at Figure 3.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-=
font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-=
font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-=
font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> =
OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Adrian =
Farrel<br><b>Sent:</b> 19 July 2016 09:28<br><b>To:</b> 'Benoit Claise'; =
'Qin Wu'; 'opsawg@ietf.org'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OPSAWG] New Version =
Notification for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Benoit,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I think that you mean to say &quot;is *an* objective of&quot;. That =
is, the draft you point at has a far wider scope and =
purpose.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>No problem with that.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Doing our work in L3SM we repeatedly encountered confusion about what =
a service model is and where it fits in the &quot;hierarchy&quot;. So we =
wrote some text.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Looking at our draft and Figure 1 in the yang-model-classification =
there is not complete coherence.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Which way would like to go forward?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Roll our text into yang-model-classification?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Push forward separately?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> =
OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Benoit =
Claise<br><b>Sent:</b> 19 July 2016 09:18<br><b>To:</b> Qin Wu; =
opsawg@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification =
for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Qin,<br><br>Explaining the difference between a service and =
network element YANG modules is the objective of <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-cla=
ssification/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-mod=
el-classification/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span =
class=3Dmh>Abstract</span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><p=
re><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>The YANG =
[RFC6020] data modeling language is currently =
being<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>considered for a wide variety of applications throughout =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>networking industry at large.<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0 </span>Many standards-defining =
organizations<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>(SDOs), open source =
software projects, vendors and users are =
using<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>YANG to develop and publish YANG modules of configuration, state =
data<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>and operations for a wide variety of applications.<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0 </span>At the same =
time,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>there is currently no well-known terminology to categorize =
various<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>types of YANG =
modules.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>A consistent terminology =
would help with the categorization of YANG<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>modules, assist in the =
analysis the YANG data modeling efforts in =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>IETF and other organizations, and bring clarity to the =
YANG-related<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>discussions between the =
different groups.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0 </span><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0</span>This document describes a set of =
concepts and associated terms to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>support consistent =
classification of YANG modules.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Regards, Benoit<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Hi,<o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre>We have submitted a new I-D that discusses the scope and purpose of =
service models within<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the IETF and describes how a =
service model can be used by a =
network<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>operator.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-ex=
plained/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-=
explained/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>In =
addition, this draft clarifies the role and position of service model in =
the SDN architecture and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Clear several =
misconception on the service =
model.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Your questions =
and comments are =
welcome.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Regards!<o:p></=
o:p></pre><pre>-Qin<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>-----<span =
style=3D'font-family:MingLiU;mso-bidi-font-family:MingLiU'>=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=
=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6</span>-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-family:MingLiU;mso-bidi-font-family:MingLiU'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=
=B6=E4=BA=BA</span>: <a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org<=
/a>] <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-family:MingLiU;mso-bidi-font-family:MingLiU'>=E5=8F=91=E9=80=
=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4</span>: 2016<span style=3D'font-family:"MS =
Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS Gothic"'>=E5=B9=B4</span>7<span =
style=3D'font-family:"MS Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS =
Gothic"'>=E6=9C=88</span>5<span style=3D'font-family:"MS =
Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS Gothic"'>=E6=97=A5</span> =
19:55<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style=3D'font-family:"MS =
Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS =
Gothic"'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA</span>: Liushucheng (Will); Adrian =
Farrel; Liushucheng (Will); Qin Wu<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'font-family:"MS Gothic";mso-bidi-font-family:"MS =
Gothic"'>=E4=B8=BB</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:MingLiU;mso-bidi-font-family:MingLiU'>=E9=A2=98</spa=
n>: New Version Notification for =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>A new version of I-D, =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-00.txt<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>has =
been successfully submitted by Qin Wu and posted to the IETF =
repository.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Name:<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:2'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =
</span>draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Revis=
ion:<span style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>00<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Title:<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:2'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 </span>Service Models Explained<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Document =
date:<span style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'> =
</span>2016-07-05<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Group:<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:2'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 </span>Individual Submission<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Pages:<span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:2'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 </span>12<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>URL:<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-service-mode=
l-explained-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-opsawg-=
service-model-explained-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Status:<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 </span><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-ex=
plained/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-=
explained/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Htmlized:<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explain=
ed-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explaine=
d-00</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></pre><pre>Abstract:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>The IETF has produced a =
considerable number of data models in the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>YANG modelling =
language.<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0 </span>The majority of =
these are used to model<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>devices and they allow =
access for configuration and to read<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>operational =
status.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>A small number of YANG =
models are used to model services (for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>example, the Layer Three =
Virtual Private Network Service Model<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>produced by the L3SM =
working group).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>This document briefly =
sets out the scope of and purpose of an IETF<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>service model, and it =
shows where a service model might fit into a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Software Defined =
Networking architecture or =
deployment.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span>=
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>=
<pre>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>The =
IETF =
Secretariat<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>____________=
___________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>OPSAWG mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:OPSAWG@ietf.org">OPSAWG@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=
<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/opsawg</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0AC2_01D1E1A1.9BCC8070--



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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: auto attachment presentation
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Hi,

Please find attached an updated auto-attach presentations


-          Slides in the right order (!)

-          Links to the open source implementations

Regards,

Dan



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please find attached an updated auto-attach presenta=
tions<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Slides in the right order =
(!)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
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nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Links to the open source i=
mplementations<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dan<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 13:51:12 +0200
Message-ID: <CAHw9_iLuSLCiOXhGM7KOkazotdM88rENXBDuR470Ch-RcfkS6A@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] auto attachment presentation
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I've posted these.

Thanks Dan (and everyone),
W

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
<dromasca@avaya.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Please find attached an updated auto-attach presentations
>
>
>
> -          Slides in the right order (!)
>
> -          Links to the open source implementations
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>



-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
To: "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has tak=
en exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with "reconstructed" path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet =
has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with "reconstructed" path.


Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly=
 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a =
million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a 'mix and match' attack, by taking the correct =
POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn't it be possib=
le to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that's reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let's say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can 'launder' packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of pac=
ket B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node's POT values (from older packet=
 traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier's share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just observ=
e the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the "Reply Attacks" , we recommend that the RND-2 (gene=
rated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D "Time Stamp + RND number"=
)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">To summarize my take on t=
his thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposed mechanism ha=
s two significant vulnerabilities that (in my understanding) are currently =
not addressed:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#=
1F497D">A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT of=
 packet B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso=
-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#=
1F497D">It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose l=
ength is determined by the timestamp resolution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sashank, thanks for agree=
ing to look into it further. I am looking forward to your insights on this.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Sashank =
Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (in=
dicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept pa=
cket B and believe that its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] If the verifier is pro=
grammed to just validate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes it ac=
cepts it.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the verifier is programm=
ed to consult a policy database to cross check if the reconstructed path {1=
,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops it .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">But I see your point , that=
 the parameters used in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids etc . =
We shall discuss this internally and get back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also, We shall get back wit=
h more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or oth=
er better approaches).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Thank you so much for all t=
he inputs.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Tal Mizr=
ahi
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brock=
ners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Sashank,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really appreciate the q=
uick and detailed responses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path taken =
by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g=
. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the
 correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] The verifier only =
constructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;the application to dete=
rmine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;The bottom line is , an=
 attacker taking a different path cannot get away with it !
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;The whole intent of &#8=
220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken exactly.&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;POT does not define whe=
ther it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;do with &#8220;reconstr=
ucted&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple qu=
estion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches =
the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will=
 the verifier accept packet B and believe that its path
 was indeed (1,3,5,6)? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we =
are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use =
as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values to be
 cached !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My point is that assuming=
 reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to a replay att=
ack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to prove me wron=
g, can you present concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and the cac=
he size?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise, you may consid=
er using a sequence number &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Sashank =
Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com<=
/a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attac=
k. &nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packe=
t A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Pack=
et B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;If the attacker could take values fro=
m
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB w=
ould result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;This could be compared with topology/=
policy db information for any policy
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a pa=
rticular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the fi=
rewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the
 correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Would you agree?</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] The verifier only cons=
tructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto the application to d=
etermine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any
 function)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">The bottom line is , an att=
acker taking a different path cannot get away with it ! The whole intent of=
 &#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken
 exactly.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">POT does not define whether=
 it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what do with &#822=
0;reconstructed&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are talk=
ing about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets per second=
.
 That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of RND-2.</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Moreover, every time a packet arrives, =
the verifier would have to compare its RND-2 value with the
 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">That does not sound feasible.</span><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Am I missing something here?</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use as m=
uch precision as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached
 !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We have two consecutive packets, A and =
B:</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correc=
t path and has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correct p=
ath and does not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a &#8216;mix and=
 match&#8217; attack, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attaching=
 it to packet B.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The attacker also terminates packet A.<=
/span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is no replay here, because the ve=
rifier receives the correct POT only once. The problem is
 that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">L</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B appears okay to the veri=
fier, even though it did not go through the correct path.</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Is there a way to mitigate this attack?=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. &=
nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Lets take correct path taken by Packet A =
&nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B=
 i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">This could be compared with topology/poli=
cy db information for any policy violations. POT does not
 enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particular=
 path taken by the packets.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you mean that there is a one-second-=
vulnerability for replay attacks?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One second is practically forever.</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Not really , the verifier could cach=
e the RND-2 numbers used in the time slice of one second and
 flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerability as such=
, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Effective replay prevention is typicall=
y performed using a sequence number, with a sliding window
 to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn&#8217;t it be possible to incorporat=
e such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high le=
vel sequence number (at seconds level)! The challenge with
 using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential analysis =
of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable.</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">that&#8217;s reason we recommend using &n=
bsp;( Timestamp(/ sequence number) &#43; RND )</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Dear Tal,</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Thank you for your interest in our work. =
More inline with [SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Right, I am referring to the former. The integri=
ty check is not the issue.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s say we have:</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correct path an=
d has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correct p=
ath and does not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The attacker can &#8216;launder&#8217; packet B =
by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of packet=
 A (and drop packet A).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even thoug=
h it did not go through the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] This is valid scenario and we have c=
ertain in-built mitigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying =
intermediate CMLs)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate no=
de&#8217;s POT values (from older packet traces) as it would disrupt
 the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On the other hand if the attacker tries t=
o replay entire sequence of CML values, he cannot still ,
 because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and particip=
ates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Verifier&#8217;s share of RND-3 is never =
on wire , so attacker cannot just observe the packet traces to reuse
 and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying co=
mplete RND-2)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Another trick, attacker could do is by co=
mpletely reusing RND-2 (but not intermediate CML values)</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In order to prevent the &#8220;Reply Atta=
cks&#8221; , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated per packet) be a combin=
ation
 (I.e. RND2 =3D &#8220;Time Stamp &#43; RND number&#8221;)</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">So in case a passive attacker tries to re=
play one of the correct but older RND-2, the verifier first
 could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved from RND=
-2.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the retrieved timestamp is older than =
current timestamp we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">There is still a small window , where the=
 attacker could replay it within the valid time slice itself
 but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearly impossible =
for the attacker to replay.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is=
 32 bits , we could get one seconds level precision in the
 time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay within=
 such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also , the verifier could cache, if neede=
d, certain number of previously used RND-2 to mitigate replay
 attacks.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Hi Tal,

thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier poi=
nt - 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to provide =
integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms - to be exac=
t: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all=
 the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for =
the additional data carried along with the POT-header - neither header nor =
payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payload won't be=
 detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly state this in the security considerat=
ions in the next rev of the document.
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet p=
ayload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to deploym=
ents where the packet payload isn't changed across the path (which might no=
t apply to certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes=
).
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which =
is expected to not alter the packet payload?

Thanks,
Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com>; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <f=
brockne@cisco.com>; draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools=
.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has tak=
en exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with "reconstructed" path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet =
has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with "reconstructed" path.


Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly=
 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a =
million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a 'mix and match' attack, by taking the correct =
POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn't it be possib=
le to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that's reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let's say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can 'launder' packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of pac=
ket B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node's POT values (from older packet=
 traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier's share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just observ=
e the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the "Reply Attacks" , we recommend that the RND-2 (gene=
rated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D "Time Stamp + RND number"=
)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Tal,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">thanks for the summary. We&#8217;ll provide more details on 2. Per my =
earlier point &#8211; 1. is an interesting discussion, given
 that we don&#8217;t claim to provide integrity protection for the packet p=
ayload. Or in other terms &#8211; to be exact: What POT provides is a proof=
 that the POT-header/meta-data transited all the required nodes. There is n=
o association (and thus proof) provided for
 the additional data carried along with the POT-header &#8211; neither head=
er nor payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payload w=
on&#8217;t be detected/mitigated. We&#8217;ll explicitly state this in the =
security considerations in the next rev of the document.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the pac=
ket payload or similar &#8211; but that way we&#8217;d restrict
 the applicability to deployments where the packet payload isn&#8217;t chan=
ged across the path (which might not apply to certain deployment &#8211; e.=
g. WAN optimization / compression schemes).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment w=
hich is expected to not alter the packet payload?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;sadara@cisco.com&gt;; Frank Brockners =
(fbrockne) &lt;fbrockne@cisco.com&gt;; draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@too=
ls.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To summarize my take o=
n this thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The proposed mechanism=
 has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my understanding) are current=
ly not addressed:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"=
mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A man-in-the-m=
iddle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT of packet B.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"=
mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It is possible=
 to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose length is determined by=
 the timestamp resolution.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Sashank, thanks for ag=
reeing to look into it further. I am looking forward to your insights on th=
is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Sa=
shank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisc=
o.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A =
(indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept=
 packet B and believe that its path was indeed
 (1,3,5,6)?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] If the verifier is =
programmed to just validate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes it=
 accepts it.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the verifier is progr=
ammed to consult a policy database to cross check if the reconstructed path=
 {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops
 it .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">But I see your point , t=
hat the parameters used in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids etc=
 . We shall discuss this internally and get back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Also, We shall get back =
with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or =
other better approaches).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thank you so much for al=
l the inputs.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Ta=
l Mizrahi
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dear Sashank,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I really appreciate th=
e quick and detailed responses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path tak=
en by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (=
e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went
 through the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;[SD] The verifier on=
ly constructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;the application to d=
etermine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;The bottom line is ,=
 an attacker taking a different path cannot get away with it !
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;The whole intent of =
&#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken exactl=
y.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;POT does not define =
whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;do with &#8220;recon=
structed&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple=
 question:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attach=
es the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, w=
ill the verifier accept packet B and believe that
 its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say =
we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could u=
se as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values
 to be cached !</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My point is that assum=
ing reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to a replay =
attack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In order to prove me w=
rong, can you present concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and the =
cache size?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Otherwise, you may con=
sider using a sequence number &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Sa=
shank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisc=
o.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting at=
tack. &nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Pa=
cket A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be P=
acket B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;If the attacker could take values =
from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for Packet=
B would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;This could be compared with topolo=
gy/policy db information for any policy
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a=
 particular path to be taken.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the=
 firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through
 the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Would you agree?</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] The verifier only c=
onstructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto the application t=
o determine whether it violates any policies (I.e
 missing any function)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">The bottom line is , an =
attacker taking a different path cannot get away with it ! The whole intent=
 of &#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet
 has taken exactly.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">POT does not define whet=
her it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what do with &#=
8220;reconstructed&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are t=
alking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets
 per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of =
RND-2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Moreover, every time a packet arrive=
s, the verifier would have to compare its RND-2 value
 with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">That does not sound feasible.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Am I missing something here?</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use a=
s much precision as we want to reduce the number of values
 to be cached !</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">We have two consecutive packets, A a=
nd B:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the cor=
rect path and has a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:=
black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correc=
t path and does not have a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a &#8216;mix =
and match&#8217; attack, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attach=
ing it to packet B.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The attacker also terminates packet =
A.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is no replay here, because the=
 verifier receives the correct POT only once. The
 problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1=
F497D">L</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B appears okay to the v=
erifier, even though it did not go through the correct
 path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Is there a way to mitigate this atta=
ck?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack=
. &nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Lets take correct path taken by Packet=
 A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packe=
t B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">This could be compared with topology/p=
olicy db information for any policy violations. POT
 does not enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particu=
lar path taken by the packets.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Do you mean that there is a one-seco=
nd-vulnerability for replay attacks?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">One second is practically forever.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Not really , the verifier could c=
ache the RND-2 numbers used in the time slice of one
 second and flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerabil=
ity as such, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Effective replay prevention is typic=
ally performed using a sequence number, with a sliding
 window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn&#8217;t it be possible to inc=
orporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high=
 level sequence number (at seconds level)! The challenge
 with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential anal=
ysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable=
.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">that&#8217;s reason we recommend using=
 &nbsp;( Timestamp(/ sequence number) &#43; RND )</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Dear Tal,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thank you for your interest in our wor=
k. More inline with [SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Right, I am referring to the former. The inte=
grity check is not the issue.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s say we have:</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correct path=
 and has a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correc=
t path and does not have a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The attacker can &#8216;launder&#8217; packet=
 B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of pac=
ket A (and drop packet A).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even th=
ough it did not go through the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] This is valid scenario and we hav=
e certain in-built mitigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Partial Replay of POT data (Replayi=
ng intermediate CMLs)</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate=
 node&#8217;s POT values (from older packet traces) as it
 would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">On the other hand if the attacker trie=
s to replay entire sequence of CML values, he cannot
 still , because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and =
participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Verifier&#8217;s share of RND-3 is nev=
er on wire , so attacker cannot just observe the packet
 traces to reuse and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying=
 complete RND-2)</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Another trick, attacker could do is by=
 completely reusing RND-2 (but not intermediate CML
 values)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">In order to prevent the &#8220;Reply A=
ttacks&#8221; , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated per packet)
 be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D &#8220;Time Stamp &#43; RND number&#8221;)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">So in case a passive attacker tries to=
 replay one of the correct but older RND-2, the verifier
 first could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved fr=
om RND-2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the retrieved timestamp is older th=
an current timestamp we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">There is still a small window , where =
the attacker could replay it within the valid time
 slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearl=
y impossible for the attacker to replay.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen=
 is 32 bits , we could get one seconds level precision
 in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay=
 within such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Also , the verifier could cache, if ne=
eded, certain number of previously used RND-2 to mitigate
 replay attacks.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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--_000_e45909b5c7924e11a1702c2aee1253eaXCHRCD008ciscocom_--


From nobody Tue Jul 19 09:49:22 2016
Return-Path: <talmi@marvell.com>
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From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 16:14:30 +0000
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Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "nvo3@ietf.org" <nvo3@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Hi Frank,

The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an=
 attack on the path verification.
This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not g=
o through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactl=
y the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.

Thanks,
Tal.

From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@to=
ols.ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Tal,

thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier poi=
nt - 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to provide =
integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms - to be exac=
t: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all=
 the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for =
the additional data carried along with the POT-header - neither header nor =
payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payload won't be=
 detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly state this in the security considerat=
ions in the next rev of the document.
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet p=
ayload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to deploym=
ents where the packet payload isn't changed across the path (which might no=
t apply to certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes=
).
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which =
is expected to not alter the packet payload?

Thanks,
Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Fran=
k Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>; dra=
ft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools=
.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has tak=
en exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with "reconstructed" path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet =
has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with "reconstructed" path.


Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly=
 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a =
million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a 'mix and match' attack, by taking the correct =
POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn't it be possib=
le to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that's reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let's say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can 'launder' packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of pac=
ket B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node's POT values (from older packet=
 traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier's share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just observ=
e the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the "Reply Attacks" , we recommend that the RND-2 (gene=
rated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D "Time Stamp + RND number"=
)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Frank,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The POT replacement attac=
k (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an attack on the path verif=
ication.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This simple attack can ca=
use the verifier to accept a packet that did not go through the firewall SF=
 (even though it should). I believe this is exactly the
 problem you were aiming to address in this draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Frank Br=
ockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Tal,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">thanks for the summary. W=
e&#8217;ll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier point &#8211; 1. is an=
 interesting discussion, given that we don&#8217;t claim to provide integri=
ty
 protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms &#8211; to be exact: =
What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all th=
e required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for the=
 additional data carried along with the
 POT-header &#8211; neither header nor payload. As a consequence, attacks w=
hich change the packet payload won&#8217;t be detected/mitigated. We&#8217;=
ll explicitly state this in the security considerations in the next rev of =
the document.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What we could consider is=
 linking the RND number to CRC across the packet payload or similar &#8211;=
 but that way we&#8217;d restrict the applicability to deployments where
 the packet payload isn&#8217;t changed across the path (which might not ap=
ply to certain deployment &#8211; e.g. WAN optimization / compression schem=
es).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you think it is worthw=
hile to provide a solution for a deployment which is expected to not alter =
the packet payload?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Tal Mi=
zrahi [<a href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com">mailto:talmi@marvell.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">sa=
dara@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fb=
rockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-br=
ockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">To summarize my take on t=
his thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposed mechanism ha=
s two significant vulnerabilities that (in my understanding) are currently =
not addressed:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT o=
f packet A with the POT of packet B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It is possible to replay POTs within a ce=
rtain time window, whose length is determined by the timestamp resolution.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sashank, thanks for agree=
ing to look into it further. I am looking forward to your insights on this.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Sashank =
Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com<=
/a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (in=
dicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept pa=
cket B and believe that its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] If the verifier is pro=
grammed to just validate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes it ac=
cepts it.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the verifier is programm=
ed to consult a policy database to cross check if the reconstructed path {1=
,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops it .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">But I see your point , that=
 the parameters used in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids etc . =
We shall discuss this internally and get back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also, We shall get back wit=
h more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or oth=
er better approaches).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Thank you so much for all t=
he inputs.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Tal Mizr=
ahi
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Sashank,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really appreciate the q=
uick and detailed responses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path taken =
by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g=
. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the
 correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] The verifier only =
constructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;the application to dete=
rmine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;The bottom line is , an=
 attacker taking a different path cannot get away with it !
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;The whole intent of &#8=
220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken exactly.&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;POT does not define whe=
ther it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;do with &#8220;reconstr=
ucted&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple qu=
estion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches =
the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will=
 the verifier accept packet B and believe that its path
 was indeed (1,3,5,6)? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we =
are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use =
as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values to be
 cached !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My point is that assuming=
 reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to a replay att=
ack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to prove me wron=
g, can you present concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and the cac=
he size?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise, you may consid=
er using a sequence number &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Sashank =
Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com<=
/a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attac=
k. &nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packe=
t A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Pack=
et B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;If the attacker could take values fro=
m
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB w=
ould result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;This could be compared with topology/=
policy db information for any policy
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a pa=
rticular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the fi=
rewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the
 correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Would you agree?</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] The verifier only cons=
tructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto the application to d=
etermine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any
 function)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">The bottom line is , an att=
acker taking a different path cannot get away with it ! The whole intent of=
 &#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken
 exactly.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">POT does not define whether=
 it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what do with &#822=
0;reconstructed&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are talk=
ing about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets per second=
.
 That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of RND-2.</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Moreover, every time a packet arrives, =
the verifier would have to compare its RND-2 value with the
 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">That does not sound feasible.</span><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Am I missing something here?</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use as m=
uch precision as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached
 !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We have two consecutive packets, A and =
B:</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correc=
t path and has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correct p=
ath and does not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a &#8216;mix and=
 match&#8217; attack, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attaching=
 it to packet B.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The attacker also terminates packet A.<=
/span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is no replay here, because the ve=
rifier receives the correct POT only once. The problem is
 that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">L</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B appears okay to the veri=
fier, even though it did not go through the correct path.</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Is there a way to mitigate this attack?=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. &=
nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Lets take correct path taken by Packet A =
&nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B=
 i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">This could be compared with topology/poli=
cy db information for any policy violations. POT does not
 enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particular=
 path taken by the packets.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you mean that there is a one-second-=
vulnerability for replay attacks?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One second is practically forever.</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Not really , the verifier could cach=
e the RND-2 numbers used in the time slice of one second and
 flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerability as such=
, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Effective replay prevention is typicall=
y performed using a sequence number, with a sliding window
 to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn&#8217;t it be possible to incorporat=
e such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high le=
vel sequence number (at seconds level)! The challenge with
 using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential analysis =
of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable.</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">that&#8217;s reason we recommend using &n=
bsp;( Timestamp(/ sequence number) &#43; RND )</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Dear Tal,</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Thank you for your interest in our work. =
More inline with [SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Right, I am referring to the former. The integri=
ty check is not the issue.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s say we have:</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correct path an=
d has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correct p=
ath and does not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The attacker can &#8216;launder&#8217; packet B =
by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of packet=
 A (and drop packet A).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even thoug=
h it did not go through the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] This is valid scenario and we have c=
ertain in-built mitigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying =
intermediate CMLs)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate no=
de&#8217;s POT values (from older packet traces) as it would disrupt
 the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On the other hand if the attacker tries t=
o replay entire sequence of CML values, he cannot still ,
 because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and particip=
ates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Verifier&#8217;s share of RND-3 is never =
on wire , so attacker cannot just observe the packet traces to reuse
 and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying co=
mplete RND-2)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Another trick, attacker could do is by co=
mpletely reusing RND-2 (but not intermediate CML values)</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In order to prevent the &#8220;Reply Atta=
cks&#8221; , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated per packet) be a combin=
ation
 (I.e. RND2 =3D &#8220;Time Stamp &#43; RND number&#8221;)</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">So in case a passive attacker tries to re=
play one of the correct but older RND-2, the verifier first
 could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved from RND=
-2.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the retrieved timestamp is older than =
current timestamp we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">There is still a small window , where the=
 attacker could replay it within the valid time slice itself
 but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearly impossible =
for the attacker to replay.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is=
 32 bits , we could get one seconds level precision in the
 time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay within=
 such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also , the verifier could cache, if neede=
d, certain number of previously used RND-2 to mitigate replay
 attacks.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_fe81bb4d38414067bbd78f65f8f7aae7ILEXCH02marvellcom_--


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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "'opsawg@ietf.org'" <OpsAWG@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] BTW draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained now at rev -01
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--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA853A855Dnkgeml513mbxchi_--



From nobody Tue Jul 19 13:56:43 2016
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] draft-deng-opsawg-composed-vpn-sm-requirements-01.txt
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> Hi Randy, today, at IETF96 in Berlin, we discussed this document in
> the OPSAWG meeting. 
> We would be interested to hear your opinion (from an operator point of
> view) on this document.  It is a short document. Hearing if you think
> this makes sense or not would be great.
> You can send you comments to me directly or (preferably) to the opsawg
> mailing list at OPSAWG@ietf.org

at this level of abstraction, anything can be made to look as if it
would work and be wonderful.  it essentially says that a multi-as vpn is
composed by linking multiple single-as vpn systems.  this is not a deep
insight, and it provides no clues on how to do it.

of the 392 devils to be found in the details, inter-provider
authentication and identification of end-points, billing, ...  the list
goes on and one.

then there are issues such as describing and provisioning the contracted
(with the end customer) privacy constraints across multiple provider
technologies.

fwiw, our customers do use multi-provider vpns; they use ipsec.  we
provide ipsec capable cpe and various management/orchestration systems.

randy


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From: "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an=
 attack on the path verification.
This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not g=
o through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactl=
y the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.

[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a serv=
ice function/node.
For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did n=
ot bypass is a valid attack on the system.

In the current state, there is no way an attacker can get away as we determ=
ine the exact path the packet travelled (aim of the draft) .
I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle what to do with the path reco=
nstructed !
We could emphasize this in our next draft , but it would be beyond scope of=
 POT to determine what to do with the path constructed.
IMO, It would be highly application specific.


Regards,
Sashank



Thanks,
Tal.

From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@to=
ols.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Tal,

thanks for the summary. We=92ll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier p=
oint =96 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don=92t claim to pr=
ovide integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms =96 to=
 be exact: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data trans=
ited all the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provi=
ded for the additional data carried along with the POT-header =96 neither h=
eader nor payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payloa=
d won=92t be detected/mitigated. We=92ll explicitly state this in the secur=
ity considerations in the next rev of the document.
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet p=
ayload or similar =96 but that way we=92d restrict the applicability to dep=
loyments where the packet payload isn=92t changed across the path (which mi=
ght not apply to certain deployment =96 e.g. WAN optimization / compression=
 schemes).
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which =
is expected to not alter the packet payload?

Thanks,
Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Fran=
k Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>; dra=
ft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools=
.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of =93proof-of-transit=94 is to prove the path packet has=
 taken exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with =93reconstructed=94 path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm=85 Let=92s say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rou=
ghly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of =93proof-of-transit=94 is to prove the path pac=
ket has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with =93reconstructed=94 path.


Hmmm=85 Let=92s say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store =
a million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a =91mix and match=92 attack, by taking the corr=
ect POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn=92t it be poss=
ible to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that=92s reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let=92s say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can =91launder=92 packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of=
 packet B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node=92s POT values (from older pack=
et traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier=92s share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just obse=
rve the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the =93Reply Attacks=94 , we recommend that the RND-2 (=
generated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D =93Time Stamp + RND n=
umber=94)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


--_000_D3B4DE197903Asadaraciscocom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The POT replacement attack (1.) is =
not an attack on the integrity. It is an attack on the path verification.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This simple attack can cause the ve=
rifier to accept a packet that did not go through the firewall SF (even tho=
ugh it should). I believe this is exactly
 the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a=
 service function/node.&nbsp;</div>
<div>For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it =
did not bypass is a valid attack on the system.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the current state, there is no way an attacker can get away as we d=
etermine the exact path the packet travelled (aim of the draft) .&nbsp;</di=
v>
<div>I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle what to do with the path=
 reconstructed !</div>
<div>We could emphasize this in our next draft , but it would be beyond sco=
pe of POT to determine what to do with the path constructed.&nbsp;</div>
<div>IMO, It would be highly application specific.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Sashank</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [<a href=3D"mailto:fbro=
ckne@cisco.com">mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-broc=
kners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Tal,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">thanks for the summary. We=92ll pro=
vide more details on 2. Per my earlier point =96 1. is an interesting discu=
ssion, given that we don=92t claim to provide
 integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms =96 to be e=
xact: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited =
all the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided f=
or the additional data carried along
 with the POT-header =96 neither header nor payload. As a consequence, atta=
cks which change the packet payload won=92t be detected/mitigated. We=92ll =
explicitly state this in the security considerations in the next rev of the=
 document.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">What we could consider is linking t=
he RND number to CRC across the packet payload or similar =96 but that way =
we=92d restrict the applicability to deployments
 where the packet payload isn=92t changed across the path (which might not =
apply to certain deployment =96 e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes=
).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Do you think it is worthwhile to pr=
ovide a solution for a deployment which is expected to not alter the packet=
 payload?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Tal Mizrahi [<a href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com=
">mailto:talmi@marvell.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">sa=
dara@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fb=
rockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-br=
ockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">To summarize my take on this thread=
:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The proposed mechanism has two sign=
ificant vulnerabilities that (in my understanding) are currently not addres=
sed:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);=
">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A=
 with the POT of packet B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);=
">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time=
 window, whose length is determined by the timestamp resolution.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Sashank, thanks for agreeing to loo=
k into it further. I am looking forward to your insights on this.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@ci=
sco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating t=
he path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and=
 believe that its path was indeed
 (1,3,5,6)?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just v=
alidate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.&nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">If the verifier is programmed to consult a p=
olicy database to cross check if the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per=
 the policies then no , it drops it
 .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">But I see your point , that the parameters u=
sed in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss =
this internally and get back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">Also, We shall get back with more concrete n=
umbers of the timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or other better approac=
hes).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">Thank you so much for all the inputs.&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Tal Mizrahi
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Sashank,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I really appreciate the quick and d=
etailed responses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packet A &nbsp=
;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the fire=
wall SF), but the verifier believes it went
 through the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;[SD] The verifier only constructs the pa=
th the packet took accurately, it is upto
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;the application to determine whether it =
violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;The bottom line is , an attacker taking =
a different path cannot get away with it !
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;The whole intent of =93proof-of-transit=
=94 is to prove the path packet has taken exactly.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;POT does not define whether it good/bad =
path. It is upto high level applications on what
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;do with =93reconstructed=94 path.&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I want to ask a simple question:<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If the attacker attaches the POT of=
 packet A (indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verif=
ier accept packet B and believe that
 its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&gt;&gt;Hmmm=85 Let=92s say we are talking about =
traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Se=
cond level precision is only an example, we could use as much precision as =
we want to reduce the number of values to be cached
 !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">My point is that assuming reasonabl=
e resources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to a replay attack.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In order to prove me wrong, can you=
 present concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and the cache size?<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Otherwise, you may consider using a=
 sequence number &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@ci=
sco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. &nbsp;</span><=
span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1=
,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db informa=
tion for any policy
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to =
be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF)=
, but the verifier believes it went through
 the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Would you agree?</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">[SD] The verifier only constructs the path t=
he packet took accurately, it is upto the application to determine whether =
it violates any policies (I.e missing
 any function)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">The bottom line is , an attacker taking a di=
fferent path cannot get away with it ! The whole intent of =93proof-of-tran=
sit=94 is to prove the path packet has taken
 exactly.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">POT does not define whether it good/bad path=
. It is upto high level applications on what do with =93reconstructed=94 pa=
th.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hmmm=85 Let=92s say we are talking about traffic =
at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets
 per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of =
RND-2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifi=
er would have to compare its RND-2 value
 with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">That does not sound feasible.</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Am I missing something here?</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">[SD]&nbsp;Second=
 level precision is only an example, we could use as much precision as we w=
ant to reduce the number of values to be cached
 !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif;">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">We have two consecutive packets, A and B:</span><=
span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">- Packet A that went through the correct path and=
 has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and do=
es not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a =91mix and match=92 atta=
ck, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.</=
span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The attacker also terminates packet A.</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">There is no replay here, because the verifier rec=
eives the correct POT only once. The problem
 is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">L</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even=
 though it did not go through the correct
 path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Is there a way to mitigate this attack?</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. &nbsp;</span><span=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Lets take correct path taken by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">This could be compared with topology/policy db information=
 for any policy violations. POT does not
 enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particular path taken by th=
e packets.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerabil=
ity for replay attacks?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">One second is practically forever.</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbe=
rs used in the time slice of one second
 and flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerability as =
such, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Effective replay prevention is typically performe=
d using a sequence number, with a sliding
 window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn=92t it be possible to incorpo=
rate such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence numb=
er (at seconds level)! The challenge with
 using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential analysis =
of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable.</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">that=92s reason we recommend using &nbsp;( Timestamp(/ seq=
uence number) &#43; RND )</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Dear Tal,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with =
[SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check i=
s not the issue.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Let=92s say we have:</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a co=
rrect POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and do=
es not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">The attacker can =91launder=92 packet B by replacing the (=
incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packe=
t A).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did n=
ot go through the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built m=
itigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black;">Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs=
)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node=92s POT values=
 (from older packet traces) as it would
 disrupt the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire s=
equence of CML values, he cannot still
 , because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and partic=
ipates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Verifier=92s share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker=
 cannot just observe the packet traces to
 reuse and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black;">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing =
RND-2 (but not intermediate CML values)</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">In order to prevent the =93Reply Attacks=94 , we recommend=
 that the RND-2 (generated per packet) be
 a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D =93Time Stamp &#43; RND number=94)</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the c=
orrect but older RND-2, the verifier first
 could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved from RND=
-2.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp=
 we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">There is still a small window , where the attacker could r=
eplay it within the valid time slice itself
 but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearly impossible =
for the attacker to replay.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we cou=
ld get one seconds level precision in
 the time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay wi=
thin such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number=
 of previously used RND-2 to mitigate
 replay attacks.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
To: "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Hi Sashank,

>[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a ser=
vice function/node.
>For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did =
not bypass is a valid attack on the system.

I would phrase it this way: *Given* a packet that did not go through its de=
sired path, the attacker can easily make you think that it *did* go through=
 the desired path.
Sounds like a very significant vulnerability.

If a packet did not go through the firewall (for one reason or another), th=
e attacker will make you think that it did go through the firewall.

Cheers,
Tal.


From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an=
 attack on the path verification.
This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not g=
o through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactl=
y the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.

[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a serv=
ice function/node.
For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did n=
ot bypass is a valid attack on the system.

In the current state, there is no way an attacker can get away as we determ=
ine the exact path the packet travelled (aim of the draft) .
I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle what to do with the path reco=
nstructed !
We could emphasize this in our next draft , but it would be beyond scope of=
 POT to determine what to do with the path constructed.
IMO, It would be highly application specific.


Regards,
Sashank



Thanks,
Tal.

From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@to=
ols.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Tal,

thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier poi=
nt - 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to provide =
integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms - to be exac=
t: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all=
 the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for =
the additional data carried along with the POT-header - neither header nor =
payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payload won't be=
 detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly state this in the security considerat=
ions in the next rev of the document.
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet p=
ayload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to deploym=
ents where the packet payload isn't changed across the path (which might no=
t apply to certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes=
).
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which =
is expected to not alter the packet payload?

Thanks,
Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Fran=
k Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>; dra=
ft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools=
.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has tak=
en exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with "reconstructed" path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet =
has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with "reconstructed" path.


Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly=
 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a =
million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a 'mix and match' attack, by taking the correct =
POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn't it be possib=
le to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that's reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let's say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can 'launder' packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of pac=
ket B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node's POT values (from older packet=
 traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier's share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just observ=
e the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the "Reply Attacks" , we recommend that the RND-2 (gene=
rated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D "Time Stamp + RND number"=
)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Sashank,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] The attack is vali=
d only if the attacker can get away bypassing a service function/node.&nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;For example, if the att=
acker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did not bypass is a valid at=
tack on the system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I would phrase it this wa=
y: *<b>Given</b>* a packet that did not go through its desired path, the at=
tacker can easily make you think that it *<b>did</b>* go
 through the desired path.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sounds like a very signif=
icant vulnerability.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If a packet did not go th=
rough the firewall (for one reason or another), the attacker will make you =
think that it did go through the firewall.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Sashank =
Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The POT replacement attack (1.) is not =
an attack on the integrity. It is an attack on the path verification.</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This simple attack can cause the verifi=
er to accept a packet that did not go through the firewall
 SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactly the problem you were=
 aiming to address in this draft.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] The attack is valid on=
ly if the attacker can get away bypassing a service function/node.&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">For example, if the attacke=
r bypasses a node and if POT determines it did not bypass is a valid attack=
 on the system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In the current state, there=
 is no way an attacker can get away as we determine the exact path the pack=
et travelled (aim of the draft) .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">I reiterate that the verifi=
er needs to handle what to do with the path reconstructed !<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">We could emphasize this in =
our next draft , but it would be beyond scope of POT to determine what to d=
o with the path constructed.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">IMO, It would be highly app=
lication specific.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Sashank<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Frank
 Brockners (fbrockne) [<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">mailto:fbrockn=
e@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-broc=
kners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Tal,</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">thanks for the summary. We&#8217;ll pro=
vide more details on 2. Per my earlier point &#8211; 1. is an interesting
 discussion, given that we don&#8217;t claim to provide integrity protectio=
n for the packet payload. Or in other terms &#8211; to be exact: What POT p=
rovides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all the required=
 nodes. There is no association (and thus proof)
 provided for the additional data carried along with the POT-header &#8211;=
 neither header nor payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the pac=
ket payload won&#8217;t be detected/mitigated. We&#8217;ll explicitly state=
 this in the security considerations in the next rev
 of the document. </span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What we could consider is linking the R=
ND number to CRC across the packet payload or similar &#8211; but
 that way we&#8217;d restrict the applicability to deployments where the pa=
cket payload isn&#8217;t changed across the path (which might not apply to =
certain deployment &#8211; e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes).
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you think it is worthwhile to provid=
e a solution for a deployment which is expected to not alter
 the packet payload?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Frank</span><span style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:blac=
k"> Tal
 Mizrahi [<a href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com">mailto:talmi@marvell.com</a>=
] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">sa=
dara@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fb=
rockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-br=
ockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">To summarize my take on this thread:</s=
pan><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposed mechanism has two signific=
ant vulnerabilities that (in my understanding) are currently
 not addressed:</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT o=
f packet A with the POT of packet B.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It is possible to replay POTs within a ce=
rtain time window, whose length is determined by the timestamp resolution.<=
/span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look in=
to it further. I am looking forward to your insights on this.</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a></span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (in=
dicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept pa=
cket B and believe that its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] If the verifier is programmed to jus=
t validate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes it
 accepts it.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the verifier is programmed to consult =
a policy database to cross check if the reconstructed path
 {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops it .&nbsp;</span><span=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">But I see your point , that the parameter=
s used in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids etc
 . We shall discuss this internally and get back.</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also, We shall get back with more concret=
e numbers of the timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or
 other better approaches).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Thank you so much for all the inputs.&nbs=
p;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Tal
 Mizrahi <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Sashank,</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really appreciate the quick and detai=
led responses.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path taken =
by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g=
. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the
 correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] The verifier only constructs the=
 path the packet took accurately, it is upto
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;the application to determine whether =
it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;The bottom line is , an attacker taki=
ng a different path cannot get away with it !
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;The whole intent of &#8220;proof-of-t=
ransit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken exactly.&nbsp;</span><s=
pan style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;POT does not define whether it good/b=
ad path. It is upto high level applications on what
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;do with &#8220;reconstructed&#8221; p=
ath.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of pac=
ket A (indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will
 the verifier accept packet B and believe that its path was indeed (1,3,5,6=
)? </span>
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we =
are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:black">&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, w=
e could use as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values
 to be cached !</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My point is that assuming reasonable re=
sources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to a replay
 attack.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to prove me wrong, can you pre=
sent concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and the
 cache size?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise, you may consider using a seq=
uence number &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attac=
k. &nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packe=
t A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Pack=
et B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;If the attacker could take values fro=
m
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB w=
ould result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;This could be compared with topology/=
policy db information for any policy
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a pa=
rticular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the fi=
rewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the
 correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Would you agree?</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] The verifier only constructs the pat=
h the packet took accurately, it is upto the application to
 determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp=
;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">The bottom line is , an attacker taking a=
 different path cannot get away with it ! The whole intent
 of &#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken ex=
actly.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">POT does not define whether it good/bad p=
ath. It is upto high level applications on what do with &#8220;reconstructe=
d&#8221;
 path.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are talk=
ing about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets per second=
.
 That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of RND-2.</span=
><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Moreover, every time a packet arrives, =
the verifier would have to compare its RND-2 value with the
 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">That does not sound feasible.</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Am I missing something here?</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:black">[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we co=
uld use as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values
 to be cached !</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:=
black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We have two consecutive packets, A and =
B:</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correc=
t path and has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correct p=
ath and does not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a &#8216;mix and=
 match&#8217; attack, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attaching=
 it to packet B.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The attacker also terminates packet A.<=
/span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is no replay here, because the ve=
rifier receives the correct POT only once. The problem is
 that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">L</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B appears okay to the veri=
fier, even though it did not go through the correct path.</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Is there a way to mitigate this attack?=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. &=
nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Lets take correct path taken by Packet A =
&nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B=
 i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">This could be compared with topology/poli=
cy db information for any policy violations. POT does not
 enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particular=
 path taken by the packets.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you mean that there is a one-second-=
vulnerability for replay attacks?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One second is practically forever.</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Not really , the verifier could cach=
e the RND-2 numbers used in the time slice of one second and
 flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerability as such=
, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Effective replay prevention is typicall=
y performed using a sequence number, with a sliding window
 to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn&#8217;t it be possible to incorporat=
e such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high le=
vel sequence number (at seconds level)! The challenge with
 using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential analysis =
of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable.</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">that&#8217;s reason we recommend using &n=
bsp;( Timestamp(/ sequence number) &#43; RND )</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Dear Tal,</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Thank you for your interest in our work. =
More inline with [SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Right, I am referring to the former. The integri=
ty check is not the issue.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s say we have:</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correct path an=
d has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correct p=
ath and does not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The attacker can &#8216;launder&#8217; packet B =
by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of packet=
 A (and drop packet A).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even thoug=
h it did not go through the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] This is valid scenario and we have c=
ertain in-built mitigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying =
intermediate CMLs)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate no=
de&#8217;s POT values (from older packet traces) as it would disrupt
 the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On the other hand if the attacker tries t=
o replay entire sequence of CML values, he cannot still ,
 because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and particip=
ates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Verifier&#8217;s share of RND-3 is never =
on wire , so attacker cannot just observe the packet traces to reuse
 and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying co=
mplete RND-2)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Another trick, attacker could do is by co=
mpletely reusing RND-2 (but not intermediate CML values)</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In order to prevent the &#8220;Reply Atta=
cks&#8221; , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated per packet) be a combin=
ation
 (I.e. RND2 =3D &#8220;Time Stamp &#43; RND number&#8221;)</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">So in case a passive attacker tries to re=
play one of the correct but older RND-2, the verifier first
 could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved from RND=
-2.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the retrieved timestamp is older than =
current timestamp we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">There is still a small window , where the=
 attacker could replay it within the valid time slice itself
 but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearly impossible =
for the attacker to replay.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is=
 32 bits , we could get one seconds level precision in the
 time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay within=
 such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also , the verifier could cache, if neede=
d, certain number of previously used RND-2 to mitigate replay
 attacks.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</body>
</html>

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From: "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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>[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a ser=
vice function/node.
>For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did =
not bypass is a valid attack on the system.

I would phrase it this way: *Given* a packet that did not go through its de=
sired path, the attacker can easily make you think that it *did* go through=
 the desired path.
Sounds like a very significant vulnerability.


If a packet did not go through the firewall (for one reason or another), th=
e attacker will make you think that it did go through the firewall.


[SD]  At a high level , looks like it is , Because each node did not really=
 digitially sign the packet that it infact went through it .
We shall investigate what light weight mitigation techniques could be incor=
porated as we wanted to avoid heavy encryptions doing this inband at each n=
ode.


Thanks again for point this .

Regards,
Sashank



Cheers,
Tal.


From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an=
 attack on the path verification.
This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not g=
o through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactl=
y the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.

[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a serv=
ice function/node.
For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did n=
ot bypass is a valid attack on the system.

In the current state, there is no way an attacker can get away as we determ=
ine the exact path the packet travelled (aim of the draft) .
I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle what to do with the path reco=
nstructed !
We could emphasize this in our next draft , but it would be beyond scope of=
 POT to determine what to do with the path constructed.
IMO, It would be highly application specific.


Regards,
Sashank



Thanks,
Tal.

From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@to=
ols.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Tal,

thanks for the summary. We=92ll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier p=
oint =96 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don=92t claim to pr=
ovide integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms =96 to=
 be exact: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data trans=
ited all the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provi=
ded for the additional data carried along with the POT-header =96 neither h=
eader nor payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payloa=
d won=92t be detected/mitigated. We=92ll explicitly state this in the secur=
ity considerations in the next rev of the document.
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet p=
ayload or similar =96 but that way we=92d restrict the applicability to dep=
loyments where the packet payload isn=92t changed across the path (which mi=
ght not apply to certain deployment =96 e.g. WAN optimization / compression=
 schemes).
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which =
is expected to not alter the packet payload?

Thanks,
Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Fran=
k Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>; dra=
ft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools=
.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of =93proof-of-transit=94 is to prove the path packet has=
 taken exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with =93reconstructed=94 path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm=85 Let=92s say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rou=
ghly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of =93proof-of-transit=94 is to prove the path pac=
ket has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with =93reconstructed=94 path.


Hmmm=85 Let=92s say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store =
a million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a =91mix and match=92 attack, by taking the corr=
ect POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn=92t it be poss=
ible to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that=92s reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let=92s say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can =91launder=92 packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of=
 packet B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node=92s POT values (from older pack=
et traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier=92s share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just obse=
rve the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the =93Reply Attacks=94 , we recommend that the RND-2 (=
generated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D =93Time Stamp + RND n=
umber=94)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


--_000_D3B50FF97908Bsadaraciscocom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-ID: <4B4EB3843F0D0849A96165E45D444CE3@emea.cisco.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;[SD] The attack is valid only if the att=
acker can get away bypassing a service function/node.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&gt;For example, if the attacker bypasses a =
node and if POT determines it did not bypass is a valid attack on the syste=
m.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would phrase it this way: *<b>Giv=
en</b>* a packet that did not go through its desired path, the attacker can=
 easily make you think that it *<b>did</b>*
 go through the desired path.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Sounds like a very significant vuln=
erability.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If a packet did not go through the =
firewall (for one reason or another), the attacker will make you think that=
 it did go through the firewall.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>[SD] &nbsp;At a high level , looks like it is , Because each node did =
not really digitially sign the packet that it infact went through it .&nbsp=
;</div>
</div>
<div>We shall investigate what light weight mitigation techniques could be =
incorporated as we wanted to avoid heavy encryptions doing this inband at e=
ach node.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks again for point this .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Sashank</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@ci=
sco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack =
on the integrity. It is an attack on the
 path verification.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This simple attack can cause the verifier to acce=
pt a packet that did not go through the
 firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactly the problem=
 you were aiming to address in this draft.</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacke=
r can get away bypassing a service function/node.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">For example, if the attacker bypasses a node=
 and if POT determines it did not bypass is a valid attack on the system.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">In the current state, there is no way an att=
acker can get away as we determine the exact path the packet travelled (aim=
 of the draft) .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">I reiterate that the verifier needs to handl=
e what to do with the path reconstructed !<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">We could emphasize this in our next draft , =
but it would be beyond scope of POT to determine what to do with the path c=
onstructed.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">IMO, It would be highly application specific=
.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;">Sashank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tal.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Frank
 Brockners (fbrockne) [<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">mailto:fbrockn=
e@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-broc=
kners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Tal,</span><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">thanks for the summary. We=92ll provide more deta=
ils on 2. Per my earlier point =96 1. is an
 interesting discussion, given that we don=92t claim to provide integrity p=
rotection for the packet payload. Or in other terms =96 to be exact: What P=
OT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all the requ=
ired nodes. There is no association
 (and thus proof) provided for the additional data carried along with the P=
OT-header =96 neither header nor payload. As a consequence, attacks which c=
hange the packet payload won=92t be detected/mitigated. We=92ll explicitly =
state this in the security considerations
 in the next rev of the document. </span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">What we could consider is linking the RND number =
to CRC across the packet payload or similar
 =96 but that way we=92d restrict the applicability to deployments where th=
e packet payload isn=92t changed across the path (which might not apply to =
certain deployment =96 e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes).
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a soluti=
on for a deployment which is expected
 to not alter the packet payload?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Frank</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">
 Tal Mizrahi [<a href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com">mailto:talmi@marvell.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">sa=
dara@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fb=
rockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-br=
ockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">To summarize my take on this thread:</span><span =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The proposed mechanism has two significant vulner=
abilities that (in my understanding) are
 currently not addressed:</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);=
">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A=
 with the POT of packet B.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);=
">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time=
 window, whose length is determined by the timestamp resolution.</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: blac=
k;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it furt=
her. I am looking forward to your insights
 on this.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regards,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tal.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a></span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating t=
he path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and=
 believe that its path was indeed
 (1,3,5,6)?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the PO=
T meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes
 it accepts it.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database=
 to cross check if the reconstructed path
 {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops it .&nbsp;</span><span=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT dat=
a donot consider the path or node-ids
 etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.</span><span style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the =
timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or
 other better approaches).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Thank you so much for all the inputs.&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Tal
 Mizrahi <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Sashank,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I really appreciate the quick and detailed respon=
ses.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packet A &nbsp=
;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the fire=
wall SF), but the verifier believes it went
 through the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet =
took accurately, it is upto
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;the application to determine whether it violates any p=
olicies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different pa=
th cannot get away with it !
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;The whole intent of =93proof-of-transit=94 is to prove=
 the path packet has taken exactly.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is up=
to high level applications on what
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;do with =93reconstructed=94 path.&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (ind=
icating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet
 B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its path was indeed =
(1,3,5,6)?
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&gt;&gt;Hmmm=85 Let=92s say we are talking about =
traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">&g=
t;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much=
 precision as we want to reduce the number of
 values to be cached !</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">My point is that assuming reasonable resources ar=
e used, the mechanism is vulnerable to
 a replay attack.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In order to prove me wrong, can you present concr=
ete numbers of the timestamp resolution
 and the cache size?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence numb=
er &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tal.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. &nbsp;</span><=
span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1=
,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db informa=
tion for any policy
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to =
be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF)=
, but the verifier believes it went through
 the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Would you agree?</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took=
 accurately, it is upto the application
 to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&n=
bsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path c=
annot get away with it ! The whole intent
 of =93proof-of-transit=94 is to prove the path packet has taken exactly.&n=
bsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto h=
igh level applications on what do with
 =93reconstructed=94 path.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hmmm=85 Let=92s say we are talking about traffic =
at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets
 per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of =
RND-2.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifi=
er would have to compare its RND-2 value
 with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</=
span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">That does not sound feasible.</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Am I missing something here?</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">[S=
D]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much pre=
cision as we want to reduce the number of values
 to be cached !</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">&n=
bsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: black;">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">We have two consecutive packets, A and B:</span><=
span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">- Packet A that went through the correct path and=
 has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and do=
es not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a =91mix and match=92 atta=
ck, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.</=
span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The attacker also terminates packet A.</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">There is no replay here, because the verifier rec=
eives the correct POT only once. The problem
 is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">L</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even=
 though it did not go through the correct
 path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Is there a way to mitigate this attack?</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. &nbsp;</span><span=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Lets take correct path taken by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">This could be compared with topology/policy db information=
 for any policy violations. POT does not
 enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particular path taken by th=
e packets.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerabil=
ity for replay attacks?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">One second is practically forever.</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbe=
rs used in the time slice of one second
 and flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerability as =
such, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Effective replay prevention is typically performe=
d using a sequence number, with a sliding
 window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn=92t it be possible to incorpo=
rate such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence numb=
er (at seconds level)! The challenge with
 using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential analysis =
of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable.</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">that=92s reason we recommend using &nbsp;( Timestamp(/ seq=
uence number) &#43; RND )</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif=
; color: black;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;"> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Dear Tal,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with =
[SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check i=
s not the issue.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Let=92s say we have:</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a co=
rrect POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and do=
es not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">The attacker can =91launder=92 packet B by replacing the (=
incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packe=
t A).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did n=
ot go through the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built m=
itigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black;">Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs=
)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node=92s POT values=
 (from older packet traces) as it would
 disrupt the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire s=
equence of CML values, he cannot still
 , because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and partic=
ipates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Verifier=92s share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker=
 cannot just observe the packet traces to
 reuse and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black;">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing =
RND-2 (but not intermediate CML values)</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">In order to prevent the =93Reply Attacks=94 , we recommend=
 that the RND-2 (generated per packet) be
 a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D =93Time Stamp &#43; RND number=94)</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the c=
orrect but older RND-2, the verifier first
 could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved from RND=
-2.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp=
 we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">There is still a small window , where the attacker could r=
eplay it within the valid time slice itself
 but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearly impossible =
for the attacker to replay.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we cou=
ld get one seconds level precision in
 the time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay wi=
thin such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number=
 of previously used RND-2 to mitigate
 replay attacks.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: black;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From nobody Wed Jul 20 00:16:16 2016
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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
Thread-Index: AdHhBQ917gU76/XQTH2CT3yKdzjXlwADHvuwAABxXIAAI5PugAAI5TEAAAaOeYAAFZJgUP//aoIAgACsjACAAN3cAIABtddwgANl9tCABdCDgA==
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 07:16:02 +0000
Message-ID: <99c4c8222952442f9a8c99713cbbbffe@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Hi Tal,

well... if you could protect the integrity of the data stream between sourc=
e and destination, you would not be able to swap the content of a packet - =
which is what your attack is all about. Rather than continue arguing the po=
int, let's acknowledge that it is a valid attack and let's look for a solut=
ion :-). We'll need to couple POT to integrity protection of the packet.

Hence, I'd like to come back to my question asked below:
Do you (and the entire SFC team here) think it is worthwhile to provide a s=
olution for a deployment which is expected to *not* alter the packet payloa=
d?

Thanks, Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 18:15
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; Sashank Dara (sadara) =
<sadara@cisco.com>; draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Frank,

The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an=
 attack on the path verification.
This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not g=
o through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactl=
y the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.

Thanks,
Tal.

From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@to=
ols.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Tal,

thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier poi=
nt - 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to provide =
integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms - to be exac=
t: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all=
 the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for =
the additional data carried along with the POT-header - neither header nor =
payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payload won't be=
 detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly state this in the security considerat=
ions in the next rev of the document.
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet p=
ayload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to deploym=
ents where the packet payload isn't changed across the path (which might no=
t apply to certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes=
).
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which =
is expected to not alter the packet payload?

Thanks,
Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Fran=
k Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>; dra=
ft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools=
.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has tak=
en exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with "reconstructed" path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet =
has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with "reconstructed" path.


Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly=
 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a =
million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a 'mix and match' attack, by taking the correct =
POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn't it be possib=
le to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that's reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let's say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can 'launder' packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of pac=
ket B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node's POT values (from older packet=
 traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier's share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just observ=
e the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the "Reply Attacks" , we recommend that the RND-2 (gene=
rated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D "Time Stamp + RND number"=
)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Tal,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">well... if you could protect the integrity of the data stream between =
source and destination, you would not be able to
 swap the content of a packet &#8211; which is what your attack is all abou=
t. Rather than continue arguing the point, let&#8217;s acknowledge that it =
is a valid attack and let&#8217;s look for a solution :-). We&#8217;ll need=
 to couple POT to integrity protection of the packet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Hence, I&#8217;d like to come back to my question asked below: &nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Do you (and the entire=
 SFC team here) think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployme=
nt which is expected to *<b>not</b>* alter the packet
 payload?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Thanks, Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 18:15<br>
<b>To:</b> Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;fbrockne@cisco.com&gt;; Sashank D=
ara (sadara) &lt;sadara@cisco.com&gt;; draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@too=
ls.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Frank,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The POT replacement at=
tack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an attack on the path ve=
rification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This simple attack can=
 cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not go through the firewall=
 SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactly
 the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Fr=
ank Brockners (fbrockne) [<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">mailto:fbro=
ckne@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-broc=
kners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Tal,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">thanks for the summary=
. We&#8217;ll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier point &#8211; 1. is=
 an interesting discussion, given that we don&#8217;t claim to provide
 integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms &#8211; to =
be exact: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transi=
ted all the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provid=
ed for the additional data carried along
 with the POT-header &#8211; neither header nor payload. As a consequence, =
attacks which change the packet payload won&#8217;t be detected/mitigated. =
We&#8217;ll explicitly state this in the security considerations in the nex=
t rev of the document.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What we could consider=
 is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet payload or similar &#82=
11; but that way we&#8217;d restrict the applicability to deployments
 where the packet payload isn&#8217;t changed across the path (which might =
not apply to certain deployment &#8211; e.g. WAN optimization / compression=
 schemes).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Do you think it is wor=
thwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which is expected to not alt=
er the packet payload?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Tal Mizrahi [<a href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com">mailto:talmi@marvell.com<=
/a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">sa=
dara@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fb=
rockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-br=
ockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To summarize my take o=
n this thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The proposed mechanism=
 has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my understanding) are current=
ly not addressed:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A man-in-the-middle can replace the PO=
T of packet A with the POT of packet B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It is possible to replay POTs within a=
 certain time window, whose length is determined by the timestamp resolutio=
n.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Sashank, thanks for ag=
reeing to look into it further. I am looking forward to your insights on th=
is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Sa=
shank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisc=
o.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A =
(indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept=
 packet B and believe that its path was indeed
 (1,3,5,6)?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] If the verifier is =
programmed to just validate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes it=
 accepts it.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the verifier is progr=
ammed to consult a policy database to cross check if the reconstructed path=
 {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops
 it .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">But I see your point , t=
hat the parameters used in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids etc=
 . We shall discuss this internally and get back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Also, We shall get back =
with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or =
other better approaches).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thank you so much for al=
l the inputs.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Ta=
l Mizrahi
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dear Sashank,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I really appreciate th=
e quick and detailed responses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path tak=
en by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (=
e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went
 through the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;[SD] The verifier on=
ly constructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;the application to d=
etermine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;The bottom line is ,=
 an attacker taking a different path cannot get away with it !
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;The whole intent of =
&#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken exactl=
y.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;POT does not define =
whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;do with &#8220;recon=
structed&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple=
 question:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attach=
es the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, w=
ill the verifier accept packet B and believe that
 its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say =
we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could u=
se as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values
 to be cached !</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My point is that assum=
ing reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to a replay =
attack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In order to prove me w=
rong, can you present concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and the =
cache size?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Otherwise, you may con=
sider using a sequence number &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Sa=
shank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisc=
o.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting at=
tack. &nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Pa=
cket A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be P=
acket B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;If the attacker could take values =
from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for Packet=
B would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;This could be compared with topolo=
gy/policy db information for any policy
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a=
 particular path to be taken.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the=
 firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through
 the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Would you agree?</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] The verifier only c=
onstructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto the application t=
o determine whether it violates any policies (I.e
 missing any function)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">The bottom line is , an =
attacker taking a different path cannot get away with it ! The whole intent=
 of &#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet
 has taken exactly.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">POT does not define whet=
her it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what do with &#=
8220;reconstructed&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are t=
alking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets
 per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of =
RND-2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Moreover, every time a packet arrive=
s, the verifier would have to compare its RND-2 value
 with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">That does not sound feasible.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Am I missing something here?</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use a=
s much precision as we want to reduce the number of values
 to be cached !</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">We have two consecutive packets, A a=
nd B:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the cor=
rect path and has a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:=
black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correc=
t path and does not have a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a &#8216;mix =
and match&#8217; attack, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attach=
ing it to packet B.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The attacker also terminates packet =
A.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is no replay here, because the=
 verifier receives the correct POT only once. The
 problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1=
F497D">L</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B appears okay to the v=
erifier, even though it did not go through the correct
 path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Is there a way to mitigate this atta=
ck?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack=
. &nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Lets take correct path taken by Packet=
 A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packe=
t B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">This could be compared with topology/p=
olicy db information for any policy violations. POT
 does not enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particu=
lar path taken by the packets.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Do you mean that there is a one-seco=
nd-vulnerability for replay attacks?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">One second is practically forever.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Not really , the verifier could c=
ache the RND-2 numbers used in the time slice of one
 second and flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerabil=
ity as such, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Effective replay prevention is typic=
ally performed using a sequence number, with a sliding
 window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn&#8217;t it be possible to inc=
orporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high=
 level sequence number (at seconds level)! The challenge
 with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential anal=
ysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable=
.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">that&#8217;s reason we recommend using=
 &nbsp;( Timestamp(/ sequence number) &#43; RND )</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Dear Tal,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thank you for your interest in our wor=
k. More inline with [SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Right, I am referring to the former. The inte=
grity check is not the issue.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s say we have:</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correct path=
 and has a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correc=
t path and does not have a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The attacker can &#8216;launder&#8217; packet=
 B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of pac=
ket A (and drop packet A).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even th=
ough it did not go through the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] This is valid scenario and we hav=
e certain in-built mitigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Partial Replay of POT data (Replayi=
ng intermediate CMLs)</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate=
 node&#8217;s POT values (from older packet traces) as it
 would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">On the other hand if the attacker trie=
s to replay entire sequence of CML values, he cannot
 still , because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and =
participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Verifier&#8217;s share of RND-3 is nev=
er on wire , so attacker cannot just observe the packet
 traces to reuse and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying=
 complete RND-2)</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Another trick, attacker could do is by=
 completely reusing RND-2 (but not intermediate CML
 values)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">In order to prevent the &#8220;Reply A=
ttacks&#8221; , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated per packet)
 be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D &#8220;Time Stamp &#43; RND number&#8221;)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">So in case a passive attacker tries to=
 replay one of the correct but older RND-2, the verifier
 first could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved fr=
om RND-2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the retrieved timestamp is older th=
an current timestamp we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">There is still a small window , where =
the attacker could replay it within the valid time
 slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearl=
y impossible for the attacker to replay.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen=
 is 32 bits , we could get one seconds level precision
 in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay=
 within such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Also , the verifier could cache, if ne=
eded, certain number of previously used RND-2 to mitigate
 replay attacks.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_99c4c8222952442f9a8c99713cbbbffeXCHRCD008ciscocom_--


From nobody Wed Jul 20 00:18:26 2016
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Tal Mizrahi'" <talmi@marvell.com>, "'Sashank Dara \(sadara\)'" <sadara@cisco.com>, "'Frank Brockners \(fbrockne\)'" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
References: <859929d79ea24e1b9df0f3cdccd66d31@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <0cae48f5873c48dc8f5cd17e22a3e032@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> <32e24976a2974b5bac63f39eec6bfe18@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B359A9.78D94%sadara@cisco.com> <36c193705f0a4443b57ac984ed29161e@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B3BB93.78E19%sadara@cisco.com> <dbeafbf94c71487598f604cc2e6224b2@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B3D716.78E9E%sadara@cisco.com> <30883664facc48a5b1c4030c8ee9c81e@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <e45909b5c7924e11a1702c2aee1253ea@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> <fe81bb4d38414067bbd78f65f8f7aae7@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B4DE19.7903A%sadara@cisco.com> <c44cec107c6741c5a51872ecad5b1429@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com>
In-Reply-To: <c44cec107c6741c5a51872ecad5b1429@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 08:18:08 +0100
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Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, nvo3@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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What is worrying me in this conversations is the discrepancy between the stated
aim in draft-brockners-proof-of-transit and the function provided by the draft.
I'm not (at the moment ;-) picking hols in what the S**3 scheme achieves, but I
am questioning whether it provides enough to be useful in the context stated.
 
So draft-brockners-proof-of-transit says...
 
> This document defines mechanisms to
> securely prove that traffic transited the defined path.
 
and 
 
>  In certain cases regulatory
>  obligations or a compliance policy require operators to prove that
>  all packets that are supposed to follow a specific path are indeed
>  being forwarded across and exact set of pre-determined nodes.
 
Shamir as applied in this document does not meet those criteria. It only shows
that all members of a defined set of nodes were traversed at some point along
the path. It neither guarantees ordering, nor does it protect against the
insertion of additional nodes on the path.
 
Other parts of the document are more clear about exactly this point. it is not
clear to me, therefore, whether the intention is misstated in the text I quoted,
or whether the proposed solution (while good at what it does) is inadequate for
the purpose.
 
BTW,  think it is not clear in the text that the order of the polynomial must
count the verifying node. I.e., the verifying node must also insert a point on
the curve. This is needed because otherwise the full set of points is included
in a message on the wire and the polynomial becomes vulnerable.
 
Thanks,
Adrian
 
From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tal Mizrahi
Sent: 20 July 2016 05:30
To: Sashank Dara (sadara); Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org
Cc: opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
Hi Sashank,
 
>[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a service
function/node. 
>For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did not
bypass is a valid attack on the system.
 
I would phrase it this way: *Given* a packet that did not go through its desired
path, the attacker can easily make you think that it *did* go through the
desired path.
Sounds like a very significant vulnerability.
 
If a packet did not go through the firewall (for one reason or another), the
attacker will make you think that it did go through the firewall.
 
Cheers,
Tal.
 
 
From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
 
 
The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an
attack on the path verification.
This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not go
through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactly the
problem you were aiming to address in this draft.
 
[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a service
function/node. 
For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did not
bypass is a valid attack on the system.
 
In the current state, there is no way an attacker can get away as we determine
the exact path the packet travelled (aim of the draft) . 
I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle what to do with the path
reconstructed !
We could emphasize this in our next draft , but it would be beyond scope of POT
to determine what to do with the path constructed. 
IMO, It would be highly application specific. 
 
 
Regards,
Sashank
 
 
 
Thanks,
Tal.
 
From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara);
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
Hi Tal,
 
thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier point -
1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to provide integrity
protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms - to be exact: What POT
provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all the required
nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for the additional data
carried along with the POT-header - neither header nor payload. As a
consequence, attacks which change the packet payload won't be
detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly state this in the security considerations
in the next rev of the document. 
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet
payload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to deployments
where the packet payload isn't changed across the path (which might not apply to
certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes). 
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which is
expected to not alter the packet payload?
 
Thanks,
Frank
 
From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com] 
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com>; Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
<fbrockne@cisco.com>; draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
Hi,
 
To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my
understanding) are currently not addressed:
1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT of
packet B.
2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.
 
Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward to
your insights on this.
 
Regards,
Tal.
 
Link to the draft:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01
 
 
 
From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
 
 
I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through
1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its
path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?
 
[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data against
{1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it. 
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check if the
reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops it . 
 
But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider the
path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.
 
Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution
and cache sizes (or other better approaches). 
 
Thank you so much for all the inputs. 
 
 
 
From: Tal Mizrahi 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
Dear Sashank,
 
I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.
 
>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes. 
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>> 
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , 
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of
(1,2,3,6). 
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy 
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes
it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it is
upto 
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any
function) 
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away with
it ! 
>The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has taken
exactly. 
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level
applications on what 
>do with "reconstructed" path. 
 
 
 
I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through
1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its
path was indeed (1,3,5,6)? 
 
 
>>Hmmm. Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a
million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare its 
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no
replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precision
as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !
 
My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is
vulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timestamp
resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g., as
in IPsec).
 
 
Thanks,
Tal.
 
 
 
From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
 
 
 
>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.  
> 
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes. 
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
> 
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , 
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6). 
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy 
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 
So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes it
went through the correct path.
Would you agree?
 
[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it is
upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing
any function) 
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away with it
! The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has taken
exactly. 
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications
on what do with "reconstructed" path. 
 
 
Hmmm. Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1
million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a million
values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare its
RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no
replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?
 
[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precision
as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !
 
 
Sashank 
 
 
 
From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
Inline .. 
 
 
We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a correct
POT.
 Now the attacker performs a 'mix and match' attack, by taking the correct POT
from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only
once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. L
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go through
the correct path.
 
Is there a way to mitigate this attack?
 
[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.  
 
Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes. 
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
 
If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , the
reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6). 
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets. 
 
Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.
 
[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the time
slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no
one-second-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values. 
 
Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number, with
a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn't it be possible to
incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?
 
[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds level)!
The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the
differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  and
predictable.
that's reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )
 
 
 
 
From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
 
Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] .. 
 
 
Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let's say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a correct
POT.
 
The attacker can 'launder' packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B
with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the
correct path.
 
[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniques
and recommendations for the same. 
There are two scenarios here 
 
Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)
 
Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node's POT values (from older packet
traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction. 
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML values,
he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1
and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier's share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just observe the
packet traces to reuse and replay it. 
 
Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)
 
Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not
intermediate CML values)
In order to prevent the "Reply Attacks" , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated
per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 = "Time Stamp + RND number")
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the
timestamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a flag
! 
 
There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within the
valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it
nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one seconds
level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker
to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates. 
 
Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously used
RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks. 
 
Hope this clarifies. 
 

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>What is worrying me in this =
conversations is the discrepancy between the stated aim in =
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit and the function provided by the draft. =
I'm not (at the moment ;-) picking hols in what the S**3 scheme =
achieves, but I am questioning whether it provides enough to be useful =
in the context stated.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>So =
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit says...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt; This document defines =
mechanisms to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt; securely prove that =
traffic transited the defined path.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>and <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
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class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt; <span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>In certain cases =
regulatory<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt;<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>obligations or a compliance =
policy require operators to prove that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt;<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>all packets that are supposed =
to follow a specific path are indeed<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt;<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>being forwarded across and =
exact set of pre-determined nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Shamir as applied in this =
document does not meet those criteria. It only shows that all members of =
a defined set of nodes were traversed at some point along the path. It =
neither guarantees ordering, nor does it protect against the insertion =
of additional nodes on the path.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Other parts of the document =
are more clear about exactly this point. it is not clear to me, =
therefore, whether the intention is misstated in the text I quoted, or =
whether the proposed solution (while good at what it does) is inadequate =
for the purpose.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>BTW,<span =
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>think it is not clear in the =
text that the order of the polynomial must count the verifying node. =
I.e., the verifying node must also insert a point on the curve. This is =
needed because otherwise the full set of points is included in a message =
on the wire and the polynomial becomes =
vulnerable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> OPSAWG =
[mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tal =
Mizrahi<br><b>Sent:</b> 20 July 2016 05:30<br><b>To:</b> Sashank Dara =
(sadara); Frank Brockners (fbrockne); =
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Hi Sashank,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;[SD] The attack is valid only if the =
attacker can get away bypassing a service =
function/node.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;For example, if the attacker bypasses a =
node and if POT determines it did not bypass is a valid attack on the =
system.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>I would phrase it this way: *<b>Given</b>* a =
packet that did not go through its desired path, the attacker can easily =
make you think that it *<b>did</b>* go through the desired =
path.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Sounds like a very significant =
vulnerability.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>If a packet did not go through the firewall =
(for one reason or another), the attacker will make you think that it =
did go through the firewall.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lang=
uage:EN-US'> Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM<br><b>To:</b> Tal =
Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); =
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> =
sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
Question regarding Proof of Transit =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div><div><di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an =
attack on the integrity. It is an attack on the path =
verification.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>This simple attack can cause the verifier to =
accept a packet that did not go through the firewall SF (even though it =
should). I believe this is exactly the problem you were aiming to =
address in this draft.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker =
can get away bypassing a service =
function/node.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>For example, if the attacker bypasses a node =
and if POT determines it did not bypass is a valid attack on the =
system.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>In the current state, there is no way an =
attacker can get away as we determine the exact path the packet =
travelled (aim of the draft) .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle =
what to do with the path reconstructed =
!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>We could emphasize this in our next draft , but =
it would be beyond scope of POT to determine what to do with the path =
constructed.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>IMO, It would be highly application =
specific.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Sashank<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Thanks,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Tal.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'> Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM<br><b>To:</b> Tal =
Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-bro=
ckners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DDE =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:DE'>Hi Tal,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DDE =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:DE'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>thanks for the summary. We&#8217;ll provide =
more details on 2. Per my earlier point &#8211; 1. is an interesting =
discussion, given that we don&#8217;t claim to provide integrity =
protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms &#8211; to be =
exact: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data =
transited all the required nodes. There is no association (and thus =
proof) provided for the additional data carried along with the =
POT-header &#8211; neither header nor payload. As a consequence, attacks =
which change the packet payload won&#8217;t be detected/mitigated. =
We&#8217;ll explicitly state this in the security considerations in the =
next rev of the document. </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>What we could consider is linking the RND =
number to CRC across the packet payload or similar &#8211; but that way =
we&#8217;d restrict the applicability to deployments where the packet =
payload isn&#8217;t changed across the path (which might not apply to =
certain deployment &#8211; e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes). =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a =
solution for a deployment which is expected to not alter the packet =
payload?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Thanks,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Frank</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div>=
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> Tal Mizrahi [<a =
href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com">mailto:talmi@marvell.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br><b>To:</b> Sashank =
Dara (sadara) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">sadara@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Frank =
Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-bro=
ckners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DDE style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:DE'>&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Hi,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>To summarize my take on this =
thread:</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>The proposed mechanism has two significant =
vulnerabilities that (in my understanding) are currently not =
addressed:</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>1.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of =
packet A with the POT of packet B.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>2.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>It is possible to replay POTs within a =
certain time window, whose length is determined by the timestamp =
resolution.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it =
further. I am looking forward to your insights on this.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Regards,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Tal.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Link to the draft: <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01">=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a></span=
><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'> Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> Tal =
Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-bro=
ckners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>I want to ask a simple question:</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A =
(indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier =
accept packet B and believe that its path was indeed =
(1,3,5,6)?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just =
validate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts =
it.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>If the verifier is programmed to consult a =
policy database to cross check if the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as =
per the policies then no , it drops it .&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>But I see your point , that the parameters used =
in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss =
this internally and get back.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Also, We shall get back with more concrete =
numbers of the timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or other better =
approaches).&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Thank you so much for all the =
inputs.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'> Tal Mizrahi <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, =
2016 10:28 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners =
(fbrockne); <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-bro=
ckners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Dear Sashank,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>I really appreciate the quick and detailed =
responses.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path taken by =
Packet A &nbsp;to be <b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) =
nodes.&nbsp;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B =
i.e. <b>Path2</b> - =
&nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker =
could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , =
<br></b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in =
(1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be =
compared with topology/policy db information for any policy =
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be =
taken.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the =
firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the correct =
path.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><br></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;[SD] The verifier only constructs the path =
the packet took accurately, it is upto </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;the application to determine whether it =
violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;The bottom line is , an attacker taking a =
different path cannot get away with it ! </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;The whole intent of =
&#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken =
exactly.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;POT does not define whether it good/bad =
path. It is upto high level applications on what </span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;do with &#8220;reconstructed&#8221; =
path.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>I want to ask a simple question:</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A =
(indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier =
accept packet B and believe that its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)? =
</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;&gt;Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are =
talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly <br>&gt;&gt;1 million =
packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a million =
values of RND-2.<br>&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the =
verifier would have to compare its <br>&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 =
million stored values, in order to verify there is no =
replay.<br>&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>&gt;&gt;Am I missing =
something here?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;mso-ansi-language=
:EN-US'>&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we =
could use as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values to =
be cached !</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>My point is that assuming reasonable =
resources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to a replay =
attack.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>In order to prove me wrong, can you present =
concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and the cache =
size?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence =
number + sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Thanks,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Tal.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'> Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br><b>To:</b> Tal =
Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-bro=
ckners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. =
&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packet A =
&nbsp;to be <b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B =
i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;If the attacker could take values from =
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would =
result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy =
db information for any policy </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a =
particular path to be taken.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall =
SF), but the verifier believes it went through the correct =
path.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Would you agree?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the =
packet took accurately, it is upto the application to determine whether =
it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a =
different path cannot get away with it ! The whole intent of =
&#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken =
exactly.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. =
It is upto high level applications on what do with =
&#8220;reconstructed&#8221; path.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are talking =
about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets per second. =
That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of =
RND-2.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the =
verifier would have to compare its RND-2 value with the 1 million stored =
values, in order to verify there is no replay.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>That does not sound feasible.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Am I missing something here?</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;mso-ansi-language=
:EN-US'>[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could =
use as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values to be =
cached !</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;mso-ansi-language=
:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Sashank&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'> Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> Tal =
Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-bro=
ckners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>We have two consecutive packets, A and =
B:</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>- Packet A that went through the correct path =
and has a correct POT.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>- Packet B that did not go through the =
correct path and does not have a correct POT.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a &#8216;mix =
and match&#8217; attack, by taking the correct POT from packet A and =
attaching it to packet B.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>The attacker also terminates packet =
A.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>There is no replay here, because the verifier =
receives the correct POT only once. The problem is that the correct POT =
happens to arrive with packet B. </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D;mso-ansi-la=
nguage:EN-US'>L</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, =
even though it did not go through the correct path.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Is there a way to mitigate this =
attack?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. =
&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A =
&nbsp;to be <b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. =
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>If the attacker could take values from =
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , =
</b>the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) =
instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>This could be compared with topology/policy db =
information for any policy violations. POT does not enforce a particular =
path to be taken.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particular path =
taken by the packets.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Do you mean that there is a =
one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>One second is practically =
forever.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the =
RND-2 numbers used in the time slice of one second and flush off after =
every second. There is no one-second-vulnerability as such, if the =
verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Effective replay prevention is typically =
performed using a sequence number, with a sliding window to allow =
out-of-order packets. Wouldn&#8217;t it be possible to incorporate such =
a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level =
sequence number (at seconds level)! The challenge with using complete =
RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential analysis of CML values =
(across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable.</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>that&#8217;s reason we recommend using &nbsp;( =
Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;m=
so-ansi-language:EN-US'> Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br><b>To:</b> Tal =
Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-bro=
ckners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Dear Tal,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Thank you for your interest in our work. More =
inline with [SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Right, I am referring to the former. The =
integrity check is not the issue.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Let&#8217;s say we have:</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>- Packet A that went through the correct path =
and has a correct POT.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>- Packet B that did not go through the =
correct path and does not have a correct POT.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>The attacker can &#8216;launder&#8217; packet =
B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of =
packet A (and drop packet A).</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;font-variant-=
caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: =
auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even =
though it did not go through the correct path.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain =
in-built mitigation techniques and recommendations for the =
same.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying =
intermediate CMLs)</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate =
node&#8217;s POT values (from older packet traces) as it would disrupt =
the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>On the other hand if the attacker tries to =
replay entire sequence of CML values, he cannot still , because notice =
that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and participates in the =
reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Verifier&#8217;s share of RND-3 is never on =
wire , so attacker cannot just observe the packet traces to reuse and =
replay it.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete =
RND-2)</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Another trick, attacker could do is by =
completely reusing RND-2 (but not intermediate CML values)</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>In order to prevent the &#8220;Reply =
Attacks&#8221; , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated per packet) be a =
combination (I.e. RND2 =3D &#8220;Time Stamp + RND =
number&#8221;)</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>So in case a passive attacker tries to replay =
one of the correct but older RND-2, the verifier first could check the =
current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved from =
RND-2.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>If the retrieved timestamp is older than =
current timestamp we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>There is still a small window , where the =
attacker could replay it within the valid time slice itself but by =
carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearly impossible for =
the attacker to replay.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 =
bits , we could get one seconds level precision in the time window . So =
it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay within such a small =
time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, =
certain number of previously used RND-2 to mitigate replay =
attacks.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black;=
mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></body></html>
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From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 07:57:16 +0000
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Hi Frank,

>Hence, I'd like to come back to my question asked below:
>Do you (and the entire SFC team here) think it is worthwhile to provide
>a solution for a deployment which is expected to *not* alter the packet pa=
yload?

In a nutshell, YES.
I don't think integrity protection is a requirement here.
Path validation is the requirement that you guys have raised, and I believe=
 it is an important requirement.
Integrity protection is a way to satisfy the requirement.

Cheers,
Tal.


From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:16 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@to=
ols.ietf.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Tal,

well... if you could protect the integrity of the data stream between sourc=
e and destination, you would not be able to swap the content of a packet - =
which is what your attack is all about. Rather than continue arguing the po=
int, let's acknowledge that it is a valid attack and let's look for a solut=
ion :-). We'll need to couple POT to integrity protection of the packet.

Hence, I'd like to come back to my question asked below:
Do you (and the entire SFC team here) think it is worthwhile to provide a s=
olution for a deployment which is expected to *not* alter the packet payloa=
d?

Thanks, Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 18:15
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.co=
m>>; Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; dra=
ft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Frank,

The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an=
 attack on the path verification.
This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not g=
o through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactl=
y the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.

Thanks,
Tal.

From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@to=
ols.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Tal,

thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier poi=
nt - 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to provide =
integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms - to be exac=
t: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all=
 the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for =
the additional data carried along with the POT-header - neither header nor =
payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payload won't be=
 detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly state this in the security considerat=
ions in the next rev of the document.
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet p=
ayload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to deploym=
ents where the packet payload isn't changed across the path (which might no=
t apply to certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes=
).
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which =
is expected to not alter the packet payload?

Thanks,
Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Fran=
k Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>; dra=
ft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools=
.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has tak=
en exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with "reconstructed" path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet =
has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with "reconstructed" path.


Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly=
 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a =
million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a 'mix and match' attack, by taking the correct =
POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn't it be possib=
le to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that's reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let's say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can 'launder' packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of pac=
ket B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node's POT values (from older packet=
 traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier's share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just observ=
e the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the "Reply Attacks" , we recommend that the RND-2 (gene=
rated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D "Time Stamp + RND number"=
)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Frank,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;Hence, I&#8217;d like=
 to come back to my question asked below: &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;Do you (and the entir=
e SFC team here) think it is worthwhile to provide
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;a solution for a depl=
oyment which is expected to *<b>not</b>* alter the packet payload?<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In a nutshell, YES.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I don&#8217;t think integ=
rity protection is a requirement here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Path validation is the re=
quirement that you guys have raised, and I believe it is an important requi=
rement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Integrity protection is a=
 way to satisfy the requirement.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Frank Br=
ockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:16 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Tal,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">well... if you could prot=
ect the integrity of the data stream between source and destination, you wo=
uld not be able to swap the content of a packet &#8211; which
 is what your attack is all about. Rather than continue arguing the point, =
let&#8217;s acknowledge that it is a valid attack and let&#8217;s look for =
a solution :-). We&#8217;ll need to couple POT to integrity protection of t=
he packet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hence, I&#8217;d like to =
come back to my question asked below: &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you (and the entire SF=
C team here) think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment =
which is expected to *<b>not</b>* alter the packet payload?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks, Frank<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Tal Mi=
zrahi [<a href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com">mailto:talmi@marvell.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 18:15<br>
<b>To:</b> Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.=
com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:sadara@cisco.com">sadara@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-br=
ockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Frank,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The POT replacement attac=
k (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an attack on the path verif=
ication.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This simple attack can ca=
use the verifier to accept a packet that did not go through the firewall SF=
 (even though it should). I believe this is exactly the
 problem you were aiming to address in this draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Frank Br=
ockners (fbrockne) [<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">mailto:fbrockne@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-broc=
kners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Tal,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">thanks for the summary. W=
e&#8217;ll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier point &#8211; 1. is an=
 interesting discussion, given that we don&#8217;t claim to provide integri=
ty
 protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms &#8211; to be exact: =
What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all th=
e required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for the=
 additional data carried along with the
 POT-header &#8211; neither header nor payload. As a consequence, attacks w=
hich change the packet payload won&#8217;t be detected/mitigated. We&#8217;=
ll explicitly state this in the security considerations in the next rev of =
the document.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What we could consider is=
 linking the RND number to CRC across the packet payload or similar &#8211;=
 but that way we&#8217;d restrict the applicability to deployments where
 the packet payload isn&#8217;t changed across the path (which might not ap=
ply to certain deployment &#8211; e.g. WAN optimization / compression schem=
es).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you think it is worthw=
hile to provide a solution for a deployment which is expected to not alter =
the packet payload?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Tal Mi=
zrahi [<a href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com">mailto:talmi@marvell.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">sa=
dara@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fb=
rockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-br=
ockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">To summarize my take on t=
his thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The proposed mechanism ha=
s two significant vulnerabilities that (in my understanding) are currently =
not addressed:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT o=
f packet A with the POT of packet B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;col=
or:#1F497D">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It is possible to replay POTs within a ce=
rtain time window, whose length is determined by the timestamp resolution.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sashank, thanks for agree=
ing to look into it further. I am looking forward to your insights on this.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Sashank =
Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com<=
/a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;tex=
t-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (in=
dicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept pa=
cket B and believe that its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?</span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] If the verifier is pro=
grammed to just validate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6} then yes it ac=
cepts it.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the verifier is programm=
ed to consult a policy database to cross check if the reconstructed path {1=
,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops it .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">But I see your point , that=
 the parameters used in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids etc . =
We shall discuss this internally and get back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also, We shall get back wit=
h more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and cache sizes (or oth=
er better approaches).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Thank you so much for all t=
he inputs.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Tal Mizr=
ahi
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Dear Sashank,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I really appreciate the q=
uick and detailed responses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path taken =
by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g=
. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the
 correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] The verifier only =
constructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;the application to dete=
rmine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;The bottom line is , an=
 attacker taking a different path cannot get away with it !
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;The whole intent of &#8=
220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken exactly.&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;POT does not define whe=
ther it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;do with &#8220;reconstr=
ucted&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple qu=
estion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches =
the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will=
 the verifier accept packet B and believe that its path
 was indeed (1,3,5,6)? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we =
are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use =
as much precision as we want to reduce the number of values to be
 cached !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">My point is that assuming=
 reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to a replay att=
ack.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In order to prove me wron=
g, can you present concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution and the cac=
he size?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise, you may consid=
er using a sequence number &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Sashank =
Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com<=
/a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attac=
k. &nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Packe=
t A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Pack=
et B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;If the attacker could take values fro=
m
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB w=
ould result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;This could be compared with topology/=
policy db information for any policy
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a pa=
rticular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the fi=
rewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through the
 correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Would you agree?</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] The verifier only cons=
tructs the path the packet took accurately, it is upto the application to d=
etermine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any
 function)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">The bottom line is , an att=
acker taking a different path cannot get away with it ! The whole intent of=
 &#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken
 exactly.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">POT does not define whether=
 it good/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what do with &#822=
0;reconstructed&#8221; path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are talk=
ing about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets per second=
.
 That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of RND-2.</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Moreover, every time a packet arrives, =
the verifier would have to compare its RND-2 value with the
 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">That does not sound feasible.</span><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Am I missing something here?</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we could use as m=
uch precision as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached
 !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We have two consecutive packets, A and =
B:</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correc=
t path and has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correct p=
ath and does not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a &#8216;mix and=
 match&#8217; attack, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attaching=
 it to packet B.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The attacker also terminates packet A.<=
/span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is no replay here, because the ve=
rifier receives the correct POT only once. The problem is
 that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">L</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B appears okay to the veri=
fier, even though it did not go through the correct path.</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Is there a way to mitigate this attack?=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack. &=
nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Lets take correct path taken by Packet A =
&nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B=
 i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">This could be compared with topology/poli=
cy db information for any policy violations. POT does not
 enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particular=
 path taken by the packets.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Do you mean that there is a one-second-=
vulnerability for replay attacks?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">One second is practically forever.</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Not really , the verifier could cach=
e the RND-2 numbers used in the time slice of one second and
 flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerability as such=
, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Effective replay prevention is typicall=
y performed using a sequence number, with a sliding window
 to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn&#8217;t it be possible to incorporat=
e such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high le=
vel sequence number (at seconds level)! The challenge with
 using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential analysis =
of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable.</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">that&#8217;s reason we recommend using &n=
bsp;( Timestamp(/ sequence number) &#43; RND )</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"=
> Sashank
 Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisco.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Dear Tal,</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Thank you for your interest in our work. =
More inline with [SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Right, I am referring to the former. The integri=
ty check is not the issue.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s say we have:</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correct path an=
d has a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correct p=
ath and does not have a correct POT.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The attacker can &#8216;launder&#8217; packet B =
by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of packet=
 A (and drop packet A).</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even thoug=
h it did not go through the correct path.</span><span style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">[SD] This is valid scenario and we have c=
ertain in-built mitigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying =
intermediate CMLs)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate no=
de&#8217;s POT values (from older packet traces) as it would disrupt
 the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On the other hand if the attacker tries t=
o replay entire sequence of CML values, he cannot still ,
 because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and particip=
ates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Verifier&#8217;s share of RND-3 is never =
on wire , so attacker cannot just observe the packet traces to reuse
 and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying co=
mplete RND-2)</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Another trick, attacker could do is by co=
mpletely reusing RND-2 (but not intermediate CML values)</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">In order to prevent the &#8220;Reply Atta=
cks&#8221; , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated per packet) be a combin=
ation
 (I.e. RND2 =3D &#8220;Time Stamp &#43; RND number&#8221;)</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">So in case a passive attacker tries to re=
play one of the correct but older RND-2, the verifier first
 could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved from RND=
-2.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If the retrieved timestamp is older than =
current timestamp we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">There is still a small window , where the=
 attacker could replay it within the valid time slice itself
 but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearly impossible =
for the attacker to replay.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is=
 32 bits , we could get one seconds level precision in the
 time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay within=
 such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also , the verifier could cache, if neede=
d, certain number of previously used RND-2 to mitigate replay
 attacks.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</body>
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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "'Tal Mizrahi'" <talmi@marvell.com>, "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 08:51:20 +0000
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
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Adrian,

Thanks - very helpful comments. Point well taken on the fact that POT using=
 SSS is to verify that a specific set of nodes has been traversed - not all=
 nodes, nor in a specific order. We'll definitively provide clearer and cle=
aner language in the next revision.
We'll also extend the draft with another approach (based on nested crypto) =
which would be order preserving, at the expense to be  computationally more=
 intense.
Also per your note, we'll also expand on the role of the verifier in the ne=
xt revision.

Frank

From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
Sent: Mittwoch, 20. Juli 2016 09:18
To: 'Tal Mizrahi' <talmi@marvell.com>; Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.=
com>; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; draft-brockners-proo=
f-of-transit@tools.ietf.org
Cc: opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

What is worrying me in this conversations is the discrepancy between the st=
ated aim in draft-brockners-proof-of-transit and the function provided by t=
he draft. I'm not (at the moment ;-) picking hols in what the S**3 scheme a=
chieves, but I am questioning whether it provides enough to be useful in th=
e context stated.

So draft-brockners-proof-of-transit says...

> This document defines mechanisms to
> securely prove that traffic transited the defined path.

and

>  In certain cases regulatory
>  obligations or a compliance policy require operators to prove that
>  all packets that are supposed to follow a specific path are indeed
>  being forwarded across and exact set of pre-determined nodes.

Shamir as applied in this document does not meet those criteria. It only sh=
ows that all members of a defined set of nodes were traversed at some point=
 along the path. It neither guarantees ordering, nor does it protect agains=
t the insertion of additional nodes on the path.

Other parts of the document are more clear about exactly this point. it is =
not clear to me, therefore, whether the intention is misstated in the text =
I quoted, or whether the proposed solution (while good at what it does) is =
inadequate for the purpose.

BTW,  think it is not clear in the text that the order of the polynomial mu=
st count the verifying node. I.e., the verifying node must also insert a po=
int on the curve. This is needed because otherwise the full set of points i=
s included in a message on the wire and the polynomial becomes vulnerable.

Thanks,
Adrian

From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tal Mizrahi
Sent: 20 July 2016 05:30
To: Sashank Dara (sadara); Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proo=
f-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.i=
etf.org>
Cc: opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf=
.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Sashank,

>[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a ser=
vice function/node.
>For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did =
not bypass is a valid attack on the system.

I would phrase it this way: *Given* a packet that did not go through its de=
sired path, the attacker can easily make you think that it *did* go through=
 the desired path.
Sounds like a very significant vulnerability.

If a packet did not go through the firewall (for one reason or another), th=
e attacker will make you think that it did go through the firewall.

Cheers,
Tal.


From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity. It is an=
 attack on the path verification.
This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that did not g=
o through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactl=
y the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.

[SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a serv=
ice function/node.
For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did n=
ot bypass is a valid attack on the system.

In the current state, there is no way an attacker can get away as we determ=
ine the exact path the packet travelled (aim of the draft) .
I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle what to do with the path reco=
nstructed !
We could emphasize this in our next draft , but it would be beyond scope of=
 POT to determine what to do with the path constructed.
IMO, It would be highly application specific.


Regards,
Sashank



Thanks,
Tal.

From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@to=
ols.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi Tal,

thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my earlier poi=
nt - 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to provide =
integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms - to be exac=
t: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited all=
 the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof) provided for =
the additional data carried along with the POT-header - neither header nor =
payload. As a consequence, attacks which change the packet payload won't be=
 detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly state this in the security considerat=
ions in the next rev of the document.
What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the packet p=
ayload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to deploym=
ents where the packet payload isn't changed across the path (which might no=
t apply to certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization / compression schemes=
).
Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment which =
is expected to not alter the packet payload?

Thanks,
Frank

From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
To: Sashank Dara (sadara) <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Fran=
k Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>; dra=
ft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-o=
f-transit@tools.ietf.org>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>; opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.o=
rg>; nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Hi,

To summarize my take on this thread:
The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in my unde=
rstanding) are currently not addressed:

1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with the POT o=
f packet B.

2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window, whose =
length is determined by the timestamp resolution.

Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking forward =
to your insights on this.

Regards,
Tal.

Link to the draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-tra=
nsit-01



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?

[SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta data again=
st {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross check i=
f the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drop=
s it .

But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot consider =
the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.

Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp resolut=
ion and cache sizes (or other better approaches).

Thank you so much for all the inputs.



From: Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-pr=
oof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools=
.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Sashank,

I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.

>>>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes=
.
>>>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>>>
>>>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 =
,
>>>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2=
,3,6).
>>>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any polic=
y
>>>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
>>So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier belie=
ves it went through the correct path.
>>Would you agree?
>[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it =
is upto
>the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing=
 any function)
>The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away w=
ith it !
>The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet has tak=
en exactly.
>POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applic=
ations on what
>do with "reconstructed" path.



I want to ask a simple question:
If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path through 1=
,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its=
 path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?


>>Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is rough=
ly
>>1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a=
 million values of RND-2.
>>Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare=
 its
>>RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is=
 no replay.
>>That does not sound feasible.
>>Am I missing something here?
>[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much preci=
sion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !

My point is that assuming reasonable resources are used, the mechanism is v=
ulnerable to a replay attack.
In order to prove me wrong, can you present concrete numbers of the timesta=
mp resolution and the cache size?
Otherwise, you may consider using a sequence number + sliding window (e.g.,=
 as in IPsec).


Thanks,
Tal.



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft




>[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.
>
>Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
>Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).
>
>If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 ,
>the reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3=
,6).
>This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy
>violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.

So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believe=
s it went through the correct path.
Would you agree?

[SD] The verifier only constructs the path the packet took accurately, it i=
s upto the application to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e m=
issing any function)
The bottom line is , an attacker taking a different path cannot get away wi=
th it ! The whole intent of "proof-of-transit" is to prove the path packet =
has taken exactly.
POT does not define whether it good/bad path. It is upto high level applica=
tions on what do with "reconstructed" path.


Hmmm... Let's say we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly=
 1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a =
million values of RND-2.
Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to compare i=
ts RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there i=
s no replay.
That does not sound feasible.
Am I missing something here?

[SD] Second level precision is only an example, we could use as much precis=
ion as we want to reduce the number of values to be cached !


Sashank



From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Inline ..


We have two consecutive packets, A and B:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.
 Now the attacker performs a 'mix and match' attack, by taking the correct =
POT from packet A and attaching it to packet B.
The attacker also terminates packet A.
There is no replay here, because the verifier receives the correct POT only=
 once. The problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B.=
 :(
Thus, packet B appears okay to the verifier, even though it did not go thro=
ugh the correct path.

Is there a way to mitigate this attack?

[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack.

Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.
Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. Path2 -  (1,2,3,6).

If the attacker could take values from Path1 and reattach them to Path2 , t=
he reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6=
).
This could be compared with topology/policy db information for any policy v=
iolations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.
 It just reconstructs the particular path taken by the packets.

Do you mean that there is a one-second-vulnerability for replay attacks?
One second is practically forever.

[SD] Not really , the verifier could cache the RND-2 numbers used in the ti=
me slice of one second and flush off after every second. There is no one-se=
cond-vulnerability as such, if the verifier caches those values.

Effective replay prevention is typically performed using a sequence number,=
 with a sliding window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn't it be possib=
le to incorporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?

[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high level sequence number (at seconds le=
vel)! The challenge with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that th=
e differential analysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy  a=
nd predictable.
that's reason we recommend using  ( Timestamp(/ sequence number) + RND )




From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM
To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); draft-brockners-proof-of-trans=
it@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>; =
sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft

Dear Tal,
Thank you for your interest in our work. More inline with [SD] ..


Right, I am referring to the former. The integrity check is not the issue.
Let's say we have:
- Packet A that went through the correct path and has a correct POT.
- Packet B that did not go through the correct path and does not have a cor=
rect POT.

The attacker can 'launder' packet B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of pac=
ket B with the correct POT of packet A (and drop packet A).
Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even though it did not go through the=
 correct path.

[SD] This is valid scenario and we have certain in-built mitigation techniq=
ues and recommendations for the same.
There are two scenarios here

Partial Replay of POT data (Replaying intermediate CMLs)

Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate node's POT values (from older packet=
 traces) as it would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.
On the other hand if the attacker tries to replay entire sequence of CML va=
lues, he cannot still , because notice that verifier also has a secret shar=
e of RND-1 and participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.
Verifier's share of RND-3 is never on wire , so attacker cannot just observ=
e the packet traces to reuse and replay it.

Total Replay of POT data (Replaying complete RND-2)

Another trick, attacker could do is by completely reusing RND-2 (but not in=
termediate CML values)
In order to prevent the "Reply Attacks" , we recommend that the RND-2 (gene=
rated per packet) be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D "Time Stamp + RND number"=
)
So in case a passive attacker tries to replay one of the correct but older =
RND-2, the verifier first could check the current timestamp against the tim=
estamp retrieved from RND-2.
If the retrieved timestamp is older than current timestamp we drop/raise a =
flag !

There is still a small window , where the attacker could replay it within t=
he valid time slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can =
make it nearly impossible for the attacker to replay.
For example , if the Time Stamp chosen is 32 bits , we could get one second=
s level precision in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the a=
ttacker to replay within such a small time at such a high packet rates.

Also , the verifier could cache, if needed, certain number of previously us=
ed RND-2 to mitigate replay attacks.

Hope this clarifies.


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Adrian,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Thanks &#8211; very helpful comments. Point well taken on the fact tha=
t POT using SSS is to verify that a specific set of nodes
 has been traversed &#8211; not all nodes, nor in a specific order. We&#821=
7;ll definitively provide clearer and cleaner language in the next revision=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">We&#8217;ll also extend the draft with another approach (based on nest=
ed crypto) which would be order preserving, at the expense
 to be&nbsp; computationally more intense. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Also per your note, we&#8217;ll also expand on the role of the verifie=
r in the next revision.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Mittwoch, 20. Juli 2016 09:18<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Tal Mizrahi' &lt;talmi@marvell.com&gt;; Sashank Dara (sadara) &=
lt;sadara@cisco.com&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;fbrockne@cisco.com&=
gt;; draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What is worrying me in=
 this conversations is the discrepancy between the stated aim in draft-broc=
kners-proof-of-transit and the function provided
 by the draft. I'm not (at the moment ;-) picking hols in what the S**3 sch=
eme achieves, but I am questioning whether it provides enough to be useful =
in the context stated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So draft-brockners-pro=
of-of-transit says...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt; This document def=
ines mechanisms to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt; securely prove th=
at traffic transited the defined path.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&nbsp; In certain =
cases regulatory<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&nbsp; obligations=
 or a compliance policy require operators to prove that<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&nbsp; all packets=
 that are supposed to follow a specific path are indeed<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&nbsp; being forwa=
rded across and exact set of pre-determined nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shamir as applied in t=
his document does not meet those criteria. It only shows that all members o=
f a defined set of nodes were traversed at some
 point along the path. It neither guarantees ordering, nor does it protect =
against the insertion of additional nodes on the path.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Other parts of the doc=
ument are more clear about exactly this point. it is not clear to me, there=
fore, whether the intention is misstated in the
 text I quoted, or whether the proposed solution (while good at what it doe=
s) is inadequate for the purpose.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">BTW,&nbsp; think it is=
 not clear in the text that the order of the polynomial must count the veri=
fying node. I.e., the verifying node must also insert
 a point on the curve. This is needed because otherwise the full set of poi=
nts is included in a message on the wire and the polynomial becomes vulnera=
ble.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Adrian<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> OP=
SAWG [<a href=3D"mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf=
.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tal Mizrahi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 20 July 2016 05:30<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara); Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org">opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">
nvo3@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OPSAWG] Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Sashank,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;[SD] The attack is v=
alid only if the attacker can get away bypassing a service function/node.&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;For example, if the =
attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did not bypass is a valid=
 attack on the system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I would phrase it this=
 way: *<b>Given</b>* a packet that did not go through its desired path, the=
 attacker can easily make you think that it *<b>did</b>*
 go through the desired path.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Sounds like a very sig=
nificant vulnerability.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If a packet did not go=
 through the firewall (for one reason or another), the attacker will make y=
ou think that it did go through the firewall.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Sa=
shank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@cisc=
o.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The POT replacement attack (1.) is n=
ot an attack on the integrity. It is an attack on
 the path verification.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This simple attack can cause the ver=
ifier to accept a packet that did not go through the
 firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is exactly the problem=
 you were aiming to address in this draft.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] The attack is valid=
 only if the attacker can get away bypassing a service function/node.&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">For example, if the atta=
cker bypasses a node and if POT determines it did not bypass is a valid att=
ack on the system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">In the current state, th=
ere is no way an attacker can get away as we determine the exact path the p=
acket travelled (aim of the draft) .&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I reiterate that the ver=
ifier needs to handle what to do with the path reconstructed !<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">We could emphasize this =
in our next draft , but it would be beyond scope of POT to determine what t=
o do with the path constructed.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">IMO, It would be highly =
application specific.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Sashank<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">mailto:f=
brockne@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-broc=
kners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Tal,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">thanks for the summary. We&#8217;ll =
provide more details on 2. Per my earlier point &#8211; 1. is
 an interesting discussion, given that we don&#8217;t claim to provide inte=
grity protection for the packet payload. Or in other terms &#8211; to be ex=
act: What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited a=
ll the required nodes. There is no association
 (and thus proof) provided for the additional data carried along with the P=
OT-header &#8211; neither header nor payload. As a consequence, attacks whi=
ch change the packet payload won&#8217;t be detected/mitigated. We&#8217;ll=
 explicitly state this in the security considerations
 in the next rev of the document. </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What we could consider is linking th=
e RND number to CRC across the packet payload or similar
 &#8211; but that way we&#8217;d restrict the applicability to deployments =
where the packet payload isn&#8217;t changed across the path (which might n=
ot apply to certain deployment &#8211; e.g. WAN optimization / compression =
schemes).
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Do you think it is worthwhile to pro=
vide a solution for a deployment which is expected
 to not alter the packet payload?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Frank</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:black">
 Tal Mizrahi [<a href=3D"mailto:talmi@marvell.com">mailto:talmi@marvell.com=
</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Sashank Dara (sadara) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">sa=
dara@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fb=
rockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">draft-br=
ockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsawg@ietf.org">
opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:nvo3@ietf.org">nvo3@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To summarize my take on this thread:=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The proposed mechanism has two signi=
ficant vulnerabilities that (in my understanding)
 are currently not addressed:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">A man-in-the-middle can replace the PO=
T of packet A with the POT of packet B.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt"><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It is possible to replay POTs within a=
 certain time window, whose length is determined by the timestamp resolutio=
n.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look=
 into it further. I am looking forward to your insights
 on this.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Link to the draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-transit-01</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A =
(indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept=
 packet B and believe that its path was indeed
 (1,3,5,6)?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] If the verifier is programmed to =
just validate the POT meta data against {1,3,5,6}
 then yes it accepts it.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the verifier is programmed to consu=
lt a policy database to cross check if the reconstructed
 path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it drops it .&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">But I see your point , that the parame=
ters used in POT data donot consider the path or node-ids
 etc . We shall discuss this internally and get back.</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Also, We shall get back with more conc=
rete numbers of the timestamp resolution and cache
 sizes (or other better approaches).&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thank you so much for all the inputs.&=
nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Tal Mizrahi <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dear Sashank,</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I really appreciate the quick and de=
tailed responses.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets take correct path tak=
en by Packet A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be Packet B i.e. <b>Path2</b> - &=
nbsp;(1,2,3,6).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;If the attacker could take values from <b>Path1</b> and reattac=
h them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 ,
<br>
</b>&gt;&gt;&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,=
6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;This could be compared with topology/policy db information for =
any policy <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a particular path to be taken.=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;So packet B skipped node 5 (=
e.g. the firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went
 through the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Would you agree?</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;[SD] The verifier only constructs =
the path the packet took accurately, it is upto
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;the application to determine wheth=
er it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;The bottom line is , an attacker t=
aking a different path cannot get away with it !
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;The whole intent of &#8220;proof-o=
f-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has taken exactly.&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;POT does not define whether it goo=
d/bad path. It is upto high level applications on what
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;do with &#8220;reconstructed&#8221=
; path.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I want to ask a simple question:</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If the attacker attaches the POT of =
packet A (indicating the path through 1,3,5,6) to
 packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe that its path was =
indeed (1,3,5,6)?
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say =
we are talking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly
<br>
&gt;&gt;1 million packets per second. That would mean the verifier has to s=
tore a million values of RND-2.<br>
&gt;&gt;Moreover, every time a packet arrives, the verifier would have to c=
ompare its <br>
&gt;&gt;RND-2 value with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify th=
ere is no replay.<br>
&gt;&gt;That does not sound feasible.<br>
&gt;&gt;Am I missing something here?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:black">&gt;[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example=
, we could use as much precision as we want to reduce the
 number of values to be cached !</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:=
black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My point is that assuming reasonable=
 resources are used, the mechanism is vulnerable to
 a replay attack.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In order to prove me wrong, can you =
present concrete numbers of the timestamp resolution
 and the cache size?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Otherwise, you may consider using a =
sequence number &#43; sliding window (e.g., as in IPsec).</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Tal.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;[SD] Ok. This is an interesting at=
tack. &nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;Lets take correct path taken by Pa=
cket A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;Lets assume incorrect path to be P=
acket B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;If the attacker could take values =
from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b></span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;the&nbsp;reconstruction for Packet=
B would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;This could be compared with topolo=
gy/policy db information for any policy
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&gt;violations. POT does not enforce a=
 particular path to be taken.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So packet B skipped node 5 (e.g. the=
 firewall SF), but the verifier believes it went through
 the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Would you agree?</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] The verifier only constructs the =
path the packet took accurately, it is upto the application
 to determine whether it violates any policies (I.e missing any function)&n=
bsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">The bottom line is , an attacker takin=
g a different path cannot get away with it ! The whole
 intent of &#8220;proof-of-transit&#8221; is to prove the path packet has t=
aken exactly.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">POT does not define whether it good/ba=
d path. It is upto high level applications on what
 do with &#8220;reconstructed&#8221; path.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hmmm&#8230; Let&#8217;s say we are t=
alking about traffic at 10 Gbps, which is roughly 1 million packets
 per second. That would mean the verifier has to store a million values of =
RND-2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Moreover, every time a packet arrive=
s, the verifier would have to compare its RND-2 value
 with the 1 million stored values, in order to verify there is no replay.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">That does not sound feasible.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Am I missing something here?</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:black">[SD]&nbsp;Second level precision is only an example, we=
 could use as much precision as we want to reduce the number
 of values to be cached !</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Sashank&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Inline ..&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">We have two consecutive packets, A a=
nd B:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the cor=
rect path and has a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:=
black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correc=
t path and does not have a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;Now the attacker performs a &#8216;mix =
and match&#8217; attack, by taking the correct POT from packet A and attach=
ing it to packet B.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The attacker also terminates packet =
A.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is no replay here, because the=
 verifier receives the correct POT only once. The
 problem is that the correct POT happens to arrive with packet B. </span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1=
F497D">L</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B appears okay to the v=
erifier, even though it did not go through the correct
 path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Is there a way to mitigate this atta=
ck?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Ok. This is an interesting attack=
. &nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Lets take correct path taken by Packet=
 A &nbsp;to be
<b>Path1</b> - ( 1,3,5,6) nodes.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Lets assume incorrect path to be Packe=
t B i.e.
<b>Path2</b> - &nbsp;(1,2,3,6).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:b=
lack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the attacker could take values from
<b>Path1</b> and reattach them to&nbsp;<b>Path2 , </b>the&nbsp;reconstructi=
on for PacketB would result in (1,3,5,6) instead of (1,2,3,6).&nbsp;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">This could be compared with topology/p=
olicy db information for any policy violations. POT
 does not enforce a particular path to be taken.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;It just reconstructs the particu=
lar path taken by the packets.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Do you mean that there is a one-seco=
nd-vulnerability for replay attacks?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">One second is practically forever.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Not really , the verifier could c=
ache the RND-2 numbers used in the time slice of one
 second and flush off after every second. There is no one-second-vulnerabil=
ity as such, if the verifier caches those values.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Effective replay prevention is typic=
ally performed using a sequence number, with a sliding
 window to allow out-of-order packets. Wouldn&#8217;t it be possible to inc=
orporate such a sequence number into your mechanism?</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] Time stamp is essentially at high=
 level sequence number (at seconds level)! The challenge
 with using complete RND-2 as sequence number is that the differential anal=
ysis of CML values (across packets) becomes very easy &nbsp;and predictable=
.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">that&#8217;s reason we recommend using=
 &nbsp;( Timestamp(/ sequence number) &#43; RND )</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
black">
 Sashank Dara (sadara) [<a href=3D"mailto:sadara@cisco.com">mailto:sadara@c=
isco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne); <a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org">
draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Dear Tal,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thank you for your interest in our wor=
k. More inline with [SD] ..&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color=
:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Right, I am referring to the former. The inte=
grity check is not the issue.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:bla=
ck"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s say we have:</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet A that went through the correct path=
 and has a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">- Packet B that did not go through the correc=
t path and does not have a correct POT.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The attacker can &#8216;launder&#8217; packet=
 B by replacing the (incorrect) POT of packet B with the correct POT of pac=
ket A (and drop packet A).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: au=
to;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thus, packet B is verified correctly, even th=
ough it did not go through the correct path.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[SD] This is valid scenario and we hav=
e certain in-built mitigation techniques and recommendations
 for the same.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">There are two scenarios here&nbsp;</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Partial Replay of POT data (Replayi=
ng intermediate CMLs)</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Attacker cannot reuse few intermediate=
 node&#8217;s POT values (from older packet traces) as it
 would disrupt the POLY-3 construction.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">On the other hand if the attacker trie=
s to replay entire sequence of CML values, he cannot
 still , because notice that verifier also has a secret share of RND-1 and =
participates in the reconstruction of RND-3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Verifier&#8217;s share of RND-3 is nev=
er on wire , so attacker cannot just observe the packet
 traces to reuse and replay it.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"c=
olor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Total Replay of POT data (Replaying=
 complete RND-2)</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Another trick, attacker could do is by=
 completely reusing RND-2 (but not intermediate CML
 values)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">In order to prevent the &#8220;Reply A=
ttacks&#8221; , we recommend that the RND-2 (generated per packet)
 be a combination (I.e. RND2 =3D &#8220;Time Stamp &#43; RND number&#8221;)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">So in case a passive attacker tries to=
 replay one of the correct but older RND-2, the verifier
 first could check the current timestamp against the timestamp retrieved fr=
om RND-2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">If the retrieved timestamp is older th=
an current timestamp we drop/raise a flag !&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">There is still a small window , where =
the attacker could replay it within the valid time
 slice itself but by carefully choosing the time slice we can make it nearl=
y impossible for the attacker to replay.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">For example , if the Time Stamp chosen=
 is 32 bits , we could get one seconds level precision
 in the time window . So it is highly impossible for the attacker to replay=
 within such a small time at such a high packet rates.&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Also , the verifier could cache, if ne=
eded, certain number of previously used RND-2 to mitigate
 replay attacks.&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hope this clarifies.&nbsp;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_91f263bf66d642549f7cd807cfff0cddXCHRCD008ciscocom_--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
Thread-Topic: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
Thread-Index: AQHR4mnQWhCKL97OnUKNXabFF15a7g==
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:33:46 +0000
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References: <859929d79ea24e1b9df0f3cdccd66d31@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <0cae48f5873c48dc8f5cd17e22a3e032@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> <32e24976a2974b5bac63f39eec6bfe18@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B359A9.78D94%sadara@cisco.com> <36c193705f0a4443b57ac984ed29161e@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B3BB93.78E19%sadara@cisco.com> <dbeafbf94c71487598f604cc2e6224b2@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B3D716.78E9E%sadara@cisco.com> <30883664facc48a5b1c4030c8ee9c81e@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <e45909b5c7924e11a1702c2aee1253ea@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> <fe81bb4d38414067bbd78f65f8f7aae7@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B4DE19.7903A%sadara@cisco.com> <c44cec107c6741c5a51872ecad5b1429@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com>
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Subject: [OPSAWG] MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
Thread-Index: AQHR4mnUR6x6RUowp0WBJweV5BhC9aAhDzig
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:42:53 +0000
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Cc: "Frank Brockners \(fbrockne\)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, "nvo3@ietf.org" <nvo3@ietf.org>, "Sashank Dara \(sadara\)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
Thread-Topic: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:51:05 +0000
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Cc: "Frank Brockners \(fbrockne\)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, "nvo3@ietf.org" <nvo3@ietf.org>, "Sashank Dara \(sadara\)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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From: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:09:47 +0000
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Cc: "Frank Brockners \(fbrockne\)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, "nvo3@ietf.org" <nvo3@ietf.org>, "Sashank Dara \(sadara\)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>
Thread-Topic: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:21:41 +0000
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Cc: "Frank Brockners \(fbrockne\)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, "nvo3@ietf.org" <nvo3@ietf.org>, "Sashank Dara \(sadara\)" <sadara@cisco.com>, "draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org" <draft-brockners-proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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From: "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>
To: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:06:07 +0000
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References: <859929d79ea24e1b9df0f3cdccd66d31@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <0cae48f5873c48dc8f5cd17e22a3e032@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> <32e24976a2974b5bac63f39eec6bfe18@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B359A9.78D94%sadara@cisco.com> <36c193705f0a4443b57ac984ed29161e@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B3BB93.78E19%sadara@cisco.com> <dbeafbf94c71487598f604cc2e6224b2@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B3D716.78E9E%sadara@cisco.com> <30883664facc48a5b1c4030c8ee9c81e@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <e45909b5c7924e11a1702c2aee1253ea@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> <fe81bb4d38414067bbd78f65f8f7aae7@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <D3B4DE19.7903A%sadara@cisco.com> <c44cec107c6741c5a51872ecad5b1429@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <1BB247D3-A500-4D99-A970-2A2A42BFA1B5@cisco.com> <d875d34f2f014965a7670ee0c0e46094@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com> <16454292-3ADD-402A-AED6-CB785C5C833B@cisco.com> <c8349d20deed429a814a33553283de50@IL-EXCH02.marvell.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft)
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On 20/07/16, 3:39 PM, "Tal Mizrahi" <talmi@marvell.com> wrote:

>Hi Carlos,
>
>It all goes back to the threat model; which threats you want to address,
>and which ones you don't.
>
>The way I see it, roughly speaking there are 3 classes of threats (there
>ae probably other threats, but these are the basic ones):
>- Misroute / misconfiguration (not a security attack).
>- Attacker with no on-path access.
>- Man-in-the-middle (attacker *with* on-path access).
>
>It looks like the third threat (man-in-the-middle) is currently not
>addressed by POT.
>I certainly agree that this threat is the more difficult to implement of
>the three.

Thanks for such classification, we shall work on better threat modelling
and clarity in our next version.

Now , Can we put some concrete high level protocol names here that could
use POT and prone to MITM ?
Helps us understand the validity of the =B3mix-and-match=B2 attack you
described in a more concrete context.



>
>It would significantly clarify the picture if you specified in the draft
>which of the three classes you intend to address.
>
>Thanks,
>Tal.
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 11:51 AM
>>To: Tal Mizrahi
>>Cc: Sashank Dara (sadara); Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>draft-brockners-proof-
>>of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
>>Subject: Re: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit
>>draft)
>>
>>Hi, Tal,
>>
>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:42 AM, Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>
>>>
>>>> Let=B9s step back a little =8B the =B3vulnerability=B2 you are describ=
ing
>>>> comes with the assumption that a MIIT attacker can intercept a
>>>> packet, extract a TLV from the MD Type 2, drop the packet; then
>>>> intercept another packet (with the knowledge that it took a different
>>>> path, so maybe the attacker is using inband OAM as well :-), and
>>>> insert (or modify) a TLV within the content of the MD Type 2 within
>>>>the
>>content of NSH, within a specific packet.
>>>>
>>>> This sounds quite sophisticated.
>>>
>>> I am not sure I agree this is a 'sophisticated' attack.
>>> The attack does not require any cryptographic or algorithmic
>>>functionality,
>>and to that end it is very lightweight in terms of processing resources.
>>
>>Sorry if I was not clear =8B I do not mean technological sophistication o=
r
>>massive processing resources required. I mean access and operational one.
>>
>>>
>>> If this kind of attack is not within the scope here, then I would
>>>argue that
>>you don't need a cryptographic mechanism at all. All you need is a TLV
>>that
>>specifies the list of nodes. However, I believe that you did want to try
>>to
>>mitigate MITM attackers. Correct me if I am wrong.
>>>
>>
>>You seem to have missed quoting the important part of my response: "My
>>point is that what you seem to be describing is a generic threat use
>>case and
>>not a specific vulnerability.=B2
>>
>>Selectively dropping part of the response removes important context.
>>
>>> I fully agree that the threat model needs to be well-defined.
>>
>>The threat model for SFC MD, yes. Access to the POT comes with
>>assumptions.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>=8B Carlos.
>>
>>> I hope you will elaborate more on the threat model in the next version
>>>of
>>the draft.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Tal.
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 11:34 AM
>>>> To: Tal Mizrahi
>>>> Cc: Sashank Dara (sadara); Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>> draft-brockners-proof- of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org;
>>>> opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit
>>>> draft)
>>>>
>>>> Tal,
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:30 AM, Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sashank,
>>>>>
>>>>>> [SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away
>>>>>> bypassing a
>>>> service function/node.
>>>>>> For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines
>>>>>> it did
>>>> not bypass is a valid attack on the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would phrase it this way: *Given* a packet that did not go through
>>>>> its
>>>> desired path, the attacker can easily make you think that it *did* go
>>>> through the desired path.
>>>>> Sounds like a very significant vulnerability.
>>>>>
>>>>> If a packet did not go through the firewall (for one reason or
>>>>> another), the
>>>> attacker will make you think that it did go through the firewall.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let=B9s step back a little =8B the =B3vulnerability=B2 you are describ=
ing
>>>> comes with the assumption that a MIIT attacker can intercept a
>>>> packet, extract a TLV from the MD Type 2, drop the packet; then
>>>> intercept another packet (with the knowledge that it took a different
>>>> path, so maybe the attacker is using inband OAM as well :-), and
>>>> insert (or modify) a TLV within the content of the MD Type 2 within
>>>>the
>>content of NSH, within a specific packet.
>>>>
>>>> This sounds quite sophisticated.
>>>>
>>>> Do you think that if an MIIT can have that surface of attack and
>>>> sophistication, they can mess up with other even more critical things?
>>>> Changing a Tenant ID, messing up with Policy Groups, etc?
>>>>
>>>> My point is that what you seem to be describing is a generic threat
>>>> use case and not a specific vulnerability. Engineering is about
>>>> trade-offs (i.e., solutions that have practical performance) and
>>>> about placing the solution in the most effective place.
>>>>
>>>> I=B9m not deflecting but at the same time, let=B9s understand the
>>>> assumptions you are making for this potential attack you describe, as
>>>> part of the threat analysis.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> =8B Carlos.
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Tal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM
>>>>> To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>>> draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org
>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity.
>>>>> It is an
>>>> attack on the path verification.
>>>>> This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that
>>>>> did not go
>>>> through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is
>>>> exactly the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.
>>>>>
>>>>> [SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing
>>>>> a service
>>>> function/node.
>>>>> For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines
>>>>> it did
>>>> not bypass is a valid attack on the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the current state, there is no way an attacker can get away as we
>>>> determine the exact path the packet travelled (aim of the draft) .
>>>>> I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle what to do with the
>>>>> path
>>>> reconstructed !
>>>>> We could emphasize this in our next draft , but it would be beyond
>>>>> scope of
>>>> POT to determine what to do with the path constructed.
>>>>> IMO, It would be highly application specific.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Sashank
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Tal.
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
>>>>> To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org>
>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>;
>>>> opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>;
>>>> nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tal,
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my
>>>>> earlier
>>>> point - 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to
>>>> provide integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other
>>>>terms - to
>>be exact:
>>>> What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited
>>>> all the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof)
>>>> provided for the additional data carried along with the POT-header -
>>>> neither header nor payload. As a consequence, attacks which change
>>>> the packet payload won't be detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly
>>>> state this in the security considerations in the next rev of the
>>>>document.
>>>>> What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the
>>>>> packet
>>>> payload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to
>>>> deployments where the packet payload isn't changed across the path
>>>> (which might not apply to certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization /
>>compression schemes).
>>>>> Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment
>>>>> which is
>>>> expected to not alter the packet payload?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Frank
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
>>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
>>>>> To: Sashank Dara (sadara)
>>>> <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Frank Brockners
>>>> (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>;
>>>> draft-brockners-
>>>> proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org>
>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>;
>>>> opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>;
>>>> nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> To summarize my take on this thread:
>>>>> The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in
>>>>> my
>>>> understanding) are currently not addressed:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with
>>>>>the POT
>>of
>>>> packet B.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window,
>>>>>whose
>>>> length is determined by the timestamp resolution.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking
>>>>> forward to
>>>> your insights on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Link to the draft:
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>> transit-01
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
>>>>> To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>>> draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to ask a simple question:
>>>>> If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path
>>>>> through
>>>> 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe
>>>> that its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?
>>>>>
>>>>> [SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta
>>>>> data against
>>>> {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
>>>>> If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross
>>>>> check if
>>>> the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it
>>>>drops it .
>>>>>
>>>>> But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot
>>>>> consider
>>>> the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get
>>>>back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp
>>>> resolution and cache sizes (or other better approaches).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you so much for all the inputs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Tal Mizrahi
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
>>>>> To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>>> draft-brockners-
>>>> proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Sashank,
>>>>>
>>>>> I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - (
>>>>>>>> 1,3,5,6) nodes
>>>
>


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On 7/19/16 8:29 PM, Bert Wijnen (IETF) wrote:

>=20
> It is a short document. Hearing if you think this makes sense or not
> would be great.
>=20
>  > Pages: 7
>  > URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-deng-opsawg-composed-vpn-sm-=
requirements-01.txt

yeah, so I'm not a huge consumer of L3 vpn at this point even if I have
been in the past.

that said, while i see some ultility in the customer modeling the
interaction of single or multiple-provider-vpns for the purpose of
describing the typology or expressing the configuration of pre-existing
assets for reuse by VNFs,  the configuration of provider vpns is
typically opaque to customers, as they are to coordinating ISPs in a
multi-provider setup. So from my vantage point the devil is in the
question of how it get's used.

joel

>=20
> You can send you comments to me directly or (preferably) to the opsawg
> mailing list at
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>=20
> Thanks,
> Bert Wijnen
>=20



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From nobody Wed Jul 20 09:58:53 2016
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for you input Randy.

inline

Thanks On 19/07/16 22:56, Randy Bush wrote:
>> Hi Randy, today, at IETF96 in Berlin, we discussed this document in
>> the OPSAWG meeting.
>> We would be interested to hear your opinion (from an operator point of
>> view) on this document.  It is a short document. Hearing if you think
>> this makes sense or not would be great.
>> You can send you comments to me directly or (preferably) to the opsawg
>> mailing list at OPSAWG@ietf.org
> at this level of abstraction, anything can be made to look as if it
> would work and be wonderful.  it essentially says that a multi-as vpn is
> composed by linking multiple single-as vpn systems.  this is not a deep
> insight, and it provides no clues on how to do it.
Pls, the idea is to define REQUIREMENTS first. I will agree that the document is not
very good at that yet either. So my real question is,

does it make sense that we (as IETF and operators in IETF) try to define/specify a set
of requirements fo composed VPN, and then, once we have that to try and develop
protocols and interfaces that would allow interoperability. So mainly, I'd like to
understand if operators feel that some IETF work in this space makes sense.
And would operators be willing to help specify the requirements.
> of the 392 devils to be found in the details, inter-provider
> authentication and identification of end-points, billing, ...  the list
> goes on and one.
And so, that list can possibly be converted into a set of requirements, I would think.
> then there are issues such as describing and provisioning the contracted
> (with the end customer) privacy constraints across multiple provider
> technologies.
yep, that will indeed be a big problem. But possibly we can find solutions once we
know all the requirements.
> fwiw, our customers do use multi-provider vpns; they use ipsec.  we
> provide ipsec capable cpe and various management/orchestration systems.
So is that enough ? is there no improvements and interoperability improvements we
can try to work on in this space, together with operators.
> randy
Thanks, Bert
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>


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>> fwiw, our customers do use multi-provider vpns; they use ipsec.  we
>> provide ipsec capable cpe and various management/orchestration
>> systems.
> So is that enough ?

no.  it does not justify 312 internet-drafts, 92 rfcs, and sellimg me a
lot of complex boxes.  end of net predicted.  news at eleven.

randy


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To: "Sashank Dara (sadara)" <sadara@cisco.com>, Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
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I suggest that while MITM is not the most common threat (there are more
attackers that are without on-path access) - it is still common and
dangerous *enough* to justify mitigating it, if at all possible.

At the very worst, clearly specify why you do not address this threat (but
again, I=E2=80=99d rather that you addressed it), and its potential consequences.
--=20
Regards,
Uri Blumenthal





On 7/20/16, 7:06 , "OPSAWG on behalf of Sashank Dara (sadara)"
<opsawg-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of sadara@cisco.com> wrote:

>
>On 20/07/16, 3:39 PM, "Tal Mizrahi" <talmi@marvell.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi Carlos,
>>
>>It all goes back to the threat model; which threats you want to address,
>>and which ones you don't.
>>
>>The way I see it, roughly speaking there are 3 classes of threats (there
>>ae probably other threats, but these are the basic ones):
>>- Misroute / misconfiguration (not a security attack).
>>- Attacker with no on-path access.
>>- Man-in-the-middle (attacker *with* on-path access).
>>
>>It looks like the third threat (man-in-the-middle) is currently not
>>addressed by POT.
>>I certainly agree that this threat is the more difficult to implement of
>>the three.
>
>Thanks for such classification, we shall work on better threat modelling
>and clarity in our next version.
>
>Now , Can we put some concrete high level protocol names here that could
>use POT and prone to MITM ?
>Helps us understand the validity of the =C2=B3mix-and-match=C2=B2 attack you
>described in a more concrete context.
>
>
>
>>
>>It would significantly clarify the picture if you specified in the draft
>>which of the three classes you intend to address.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Tal.
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 11:51 AM
>>>To: Tal Mizrahi
>>>Cc: Sashank Dara (sadara); Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>draft-brockners-proof-
>>>of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
>>>Subject: Re: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit
>>>draft)
>>>
>>>Hi, Tal,
>>>
>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:42 AM, Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Let=C2=B9s step back a little =E2=80=B9 the =C2=B3vulnerability=C2=B2 you are describin=
g
>>>>> comes with the assumption that a MIIT attacker can intercept a
>>>>> packet, extract a TLV from the MD Type 2, drop the packet; then
>>>>> intercept another packet (with the knowledge that it took a different
>>>>> path, so maybe the attacker is using inband OAM as well :-), and
>>>>> insert (or modify) a TLV within the content of the MD Type 2 within
>>>>>the
>>>content of NSH, within a specific packet.
>>>>>
>>>>> This sounds quite sophisticated.
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure I agree this is a 'sophisticated' attack.
>>>> The attack does not require any cryptographic or algorithmic
>>>>functionality,
>>>and to that end it is very lightweight in terms of processing resources.
>>>
>>>Sorry if I was not clear =E2=80=B9 I do not mean technological sophistication =
or
>>>massive processing resources required. I mean access and operational
>>>one.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If this kind of attack is not within the scope here, then I would
>>>>argue that
>>>you don't need a cryptographic mechanism at all. All you need is a TLV
>>>that
>>>specifies the list of nodes. However, I believe that you did want to try
>>>to
>>>mitigate MITM attackers. Correct me if I am wrong.
>>>>
>>>
>>>You seem to have missed quoting the important part of my response: "My
>>>point is that what you seem to be describing is a generic threat use
>>>case and
>>>not a specific vulnerability.=C2=B2
>>>
>>>Selectively dropping part of the response removes important context.
>>>
>>>> I fully agree that the threat model needs to be well-defined.
>>>
>>>The threat model for SFC MD, yes. Access to the POT comes with
>>>assumptions.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>=E2=80=B9 Carlos.
>>>
>>>> I hope you will elaborate more on the threat model in the next version
>>>>of
>>>the draft.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Tal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 11:34 AM
>>>>> To: Tal Mizrahi
>>>>> Cc: Sashank Dara (sadara); Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>>> draft-brockners-proof- of-transit@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org;
>>>>> opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: MD Type attack (Was: Question regarding Proof of Transit
>>>>> draft)
>>>>>
>>>>> Tal,
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:30 AM, Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sashank,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away
>>>>>>> bypassing a
>>>>> service function/node.
>>>>>>> For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines
>>>>>>> it did
>>>>> not bypass is a valid attack on the system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would phrase it this way: *Given* a packet that did not go through
>>>>>> its
>>>>> desired path, the attacker can easily make you think that it *did* go
>>>>> through the desired path.
>>>>>> Sounds like a very significant vulnerability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If a packet did not go through the firewall (for one reason or
>>>>>> another), the
>>>>> attacker will make you think that it did go through the firewall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let=C2=B9s step back a little =E2=80=B9 the =C2=B3vulnerability=C2=B2 you are describin=
g
>>>>> comes with the assumption that a MIIT attacker can intercept a
>>>>> packet, extract a TLV from the MD Type 2, drop the packet; then
>>>>> intercept another packet (with the knowledge that it took a different
>>>>> path, so maybe the attacker is using inband OAM as well :-), and
>>>>> insert (or modify) a TLV within the content of the MD Type 2 within
>>>>>the
>>>content of NSH, within a specific packet.
>>>>>
>>>>> This sounds quite sophisticated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that if an MIIT can have that surface of attack and
>>>>> sophistication, they can mess up with other even more critical
>>>>>things?
>>>>> Changing a Tenant ID, messing up with Policy Groups, etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is that what you seem to be describing is a generic threat
>>>>> use case and not a specific vulnerability. Engineering is about
>>>>> trade-offs (i.e., solutions that have practical performance) and
>>>>> about placing the solution in the most effective place.
>>>>>
>>>>> I=C2=B9m not deflecting but at the same time, let=C2=B9s understand the
>>>>> assumptions you are making for this potential attack you describe, as
>>>>> part of the threat analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> =E2=80=B9 Carlos.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Tal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:31 AM
>>>>>> To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>>>> draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org
>>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org; nvo3@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The POT replacement attack (1.) is not an attack on the integrity.
>>>>>> It is an
>>>>> attack on the path verification.
>>>>>> This simple attack can cause the verifier to accept a packet that
>>>>>> did not go
>>>>> through the firewall SF (even though it should). I believe this is
>>>>> exactly the problem you were aiming to address in this draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SD] The attack is valid only if the attacker can get away bypassing
>>>>>> a service
>>>>> function/node.
>>>>>> For example, if the attacker bypasses a node and if POT determines
>>>>>> it did
>>>>> not bypass is a valid attack on the system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the current state, there is no way an attacker can get away as we
>>>>> determine the exact path the packet travelled (aim of the draft) .
>>>>>> I reiterate that the verifier needs to handle what to do with the
>>>>>> path
>>>>> reconstructed !
>>>>>> We could emphasize this in our next draft , but it would be beyond
>>>>>> scope of
>>>>> POT to determine what to do with the path constructed.
>>>>>> IMO, It would be highly application specific.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Sashank
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Tal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:00 PM
>>>>>> To: Tal Mizrahi; Sashank Dara (sadara); draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org>
>>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>;
>>>>> opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>;
>>>>> nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tal,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks for the summary. We'll provide more details on 2. Per my
>>>>>> earlier
>>>>> point - 1. is an interesting discussion, given that we don't claim to
>>>>> provide integrity protection for the packet payload. Or in other
>>>>>terms - to
>>>be exact:
>>>>> What POT provides is a proof that the POT-header/meta-data transited
>>>>> all the required nodes. There is no association (and thus proof)
>>>>> provided for the additional data carried along with the POT-header -
>>>>> neither header nor payload. As a consequence, attacks which change
>>>>> the packet payload won't be detected/mitigated. We'll explicitly
>>>>> state this in the security considerations in the next rev of the
>>>>>document.
>>>>>> What we could consider is linking the RND number to CRC across the
>>>>>> packet
>>>>> payload or similar - but that way we'd restrict the applicability to
>>>>> deployments where the packet payload isn't changed across the path
>>>>> (which might not apply to certain deployment - e.g. WAN optimization
>>>>>/
>>>compression schemes).
>>>>>> Do you think it is worthwhile to provide a solution for a deployment
>>>>>> which is
>>>>> expected to not alter the packet payload?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Tal Mizrahi [mailto:talmi@marvell.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 19. Juli 2016 17:44
>>>>>> To: Sashank Dara (sadara)
>>>>> <sadara@cisco.com<mailto:sadara@cisco.com>>; Frank Brockners
>>>>> (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com<mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com>>;
>>>>> draft-brockners-
>>>>> proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org>
>>>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>;
>>>>> opsawg@ietf.org<mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>;
>>>>> nvo3@ietf.org<mailto:nvo3@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To summarize my take on this thread:
>>>>>> The proposed mechanism has two significant vulnerabilities that (in
>>>>>> my
>>>>> understanding) are currently not addressed:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.       A man-in-the-middle can replace the POT of packet A with
>>>>>>the POT
>>>of
>>>>> packet B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.       It is possible to replay POTs within a certain time window,
>>>>>>whose
>>>>> length is determined by the timestamp resolution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sashank, thanks for agreeing to look into it further. I am looking
>>>>>> forward to
>>>>> your insights on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Tal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Link to the draft:
>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>>> transit-01
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Sashank Dara (sadara) [mailto:sadara@cisco.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:20 PM
>>>>>> To: Tal Mizrahi; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>>>> draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I want to ask a simple question:
>>>>>> If the attacker attaches the POT of packet A (indicating the path
>>>>>> through
>>>>> 1,3,5,6) to packet B, will the verifier accept packet B and believe
>>>>> that its path was indeed (1,3,5,6)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SD] If the verifier is programmed to just validate the POT meta
>>>>>> data against
>>>>> {1,3,5,6} then yes it accepts it.
>>>>>> If the verifier is programmed to consult a policy database to cross
>>>>>> check if
>>>>> the reconstructed path {1,3,5,6} is as per the policies then no , it
>>>>>drops it .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I see your point , that the parameters used in POT data donot
>>>>>> consider
>>>>> the path or node-ids etc . We shall discuss this internally and get
>>>>>back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, We shall get back with more concrete numbers of the timestamp
>>>>> resolution and cache sizes (or other better approaches).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you so much for all the inputs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Tal Mizrahi
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 10:28 AM
>>>>>> To: 'Sashank Dara (sadara)'; Frank Brockners (fbrockne);
>>>>>> draft-brockners-
>>>>> proof-of-transit@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-brockners-proof-of-
>>>>> transit@tools.ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: Question regarding Proof of Transit draft
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Sashank,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really appreciate the quick and detailed responses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lets take correct path taken by Packet A  to be Path1 - (
>>>>>>>>> 1,3,5,6) nodes
>>>>
>>
>
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--B_3551869245_103035243--


From nobody Sun Jul 24 14:37:28 2016
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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 17:36:54 -0400
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Draft minutes from Berlin
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Hi,

Draft minutes from Berlin has been posted - please let us know if you
have any corrections.

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-opsawg

W

-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


From nobody Fri Jul 29 01:04:17 2016
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--------------431BD2CD522027C2D9D3017E
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Dear OPSAWG friends,

Please see the attached submission of the next version of Manufacturer
Usage Descriptions (MUDs).  This update includes the following:

  * Completed the grand consolidation of functionality by incorporating
    the DNSNAME extension;
  * In anticipation that this document will be come a WG document, as
    discussed in Berlin, the model contact information now reflects the W=
G;
  * A preliminary discussion of extensibility is now included, as
    discussed in Berlin.
  * A Placeholder has been added for LLDP.  My hope is that we can
    curjole Dan Romascanu to write out that part, in which case I would
    want to list him as a co-author.

With this, I hope the chairs won't mind taking this draft forward to the
next step.

Any and all comments, edits etc, are invited.  I'll make the next
version available in GITHUB for pull requests if people like.

Eliot



--------------431BD2CD522027C2D9D3017E
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-8">
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  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <p>Dear OPSAWG friends,</p>
    <p>Please see the attached submission of the next version of
      Manufacturer Usage Descriptions (MUDs).=C2=A0 This update includes =
the
      following:</p>
    <ul>
      <li>Completed the grand consolidation of functionality by
        incorporating the DNSNAME extension;</li>
      <li>In anticipation that this document will be come a WG document,
        as discussed in Berlin, the model contact information now
        reflects the WG;</li>
      <li>A preliminary discussion of extensibility is now included, as
        discussed in Berlin.</li>
      <li>A Placeholder has been added for LLDP.=C2=A0 My hope is that we=
 can
        curjole Dan Romascanu to write out that part, in which case I
        would want to list him as a co-author.</li>
    </ul>
    <p>With this, I hope the chairs won't mind taking this draft forward
      to the next step.</p>
    <p>Any and all comments, edits etc, are invited.=C2=A0 I'll make the =
next
      version available in GITHUB for pull requests if people like.</p>
    <p>Eliot</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

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From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
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Subject: New Version Notification for draft-lear-ietf-netmod-mud-03.txt
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A new version of I-D, draft-lear-ietf-netmod-mud-03.txt
has been successfully submitted by Eliot Lear and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-lear-ietf-netmod-mud
Revision:	03
Title:		Manufacturer Usage Description Specification
Document date:	2016-07-29
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		24
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lear-ietf-netmod-mud-03.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lear-ietf-netmod-mud/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lear-ietf-netmod-mud-03
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-lear-ietf-netmod-mud-03

Abstract:
   This memo specifies the necessary components to implement
   manufacturer usage descriptions (MUD).  This includes two YANG
   modules, IPv4 and IPv6 DHCP options, a URL suffix specification, an
   X.509 certificate extension and a means to sign and verify the
   descriptions.

                                                                                  


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