From nobody Thu Feb 1 01:20:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsawg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsawg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD486131644; Thu, 1 Feb 2018 01:20:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qFlS2Kvy6ELa; Thu, 1 Feb 2018 01:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85E76127978; Thu, 1 Feb 2018 01:20:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=925; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1517476855; x=1518686455; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VL3IquaiJZI0ovJ+YVURFattSZ9nZhBLHfDBS2+PHTA=; b=M36cA9NeeXMriewGkBQW7YDL/gnC4NEL5/6VKu24RCUXvuXHrNcHccYU Mi74HXe2JS5s3et2AOnlJ30L6BPg9DEcnjgL31muJuVyr1fBTj4VfYuZq NW+puByGX16LtWvUmdQ1v/N7A1OyaZzm+B8EDXHsJjVjwG95yppKZJX5A s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.46,443,1511827200"; d="scan'208";a="64861980" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 01 Feb 2018 09:20:54 +0000 Received: from [10.82.178.172] ([10.82.178.172]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w119KrZg001700; Thu, 1 Feb 2018 09:20:54 GMT To: Eliot Lear , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "opsawg-chairs@ietf.org" References: <70da5ead-f28a-580a-d1b0-943dd676c5c8@cisco.com> From: Joe Clarke Organization: Cisco Message-ID: <48e642eb-a75a-efcb-21d8-eb698eedc78d@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 04:20:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <70da5ead-f28a-580a-d1b0-943dd676c5c8@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] request slot for 10 minutes X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 09:20:57 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 1/31/18 15:36, Eliot Lear wrote: > Dear OPSAWG chairs, > > Can I please have 10 minutes to talk about- AfterMUD, or those > next MUDdy steps, or the like? Ack. Sure. Joe > > Abstract as follows: > > We anticipate the IETF LC to have completed on the base MUD draft. > We have other work that we may wish to look to, in terms of next > steps. As we have seen during last call, some have called for what > amount to QoS profiles. Others have discussed leveraging the MUD > file for other informational elements. I propose to start a > discussion on both; others are encouraged to share their thoughts. > > Thanks, > > Eliot > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTMiWQHc8wChijkr7lvaI+K/hTPhwUCWnLb9QAKCRBvaI+K/hTP hyGSAJ0c5liAprdvFjko1C5x8t+0cQ6PxACfY4hQXUjnL5RX2mOG6L2yRdlITfI= =kWXf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Thu Feb 1 04:15:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: opsawg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id B0A90131708; Thu, 1 Feb 2018 04:15:32 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C633131694; Thu, 1 Feb 2018 04:15:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="1740090" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 01 Feb 2018 12:15:10 +0000 Received: from [10.61.243.57] ([10.61.243.57]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w11CF9Rk032640; Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:15:09 GMT To: Christian Huitema , Kathleen Moriarty Cc: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt.all@ietf.org, IETF Discussion Mailing List References: <1ecac9b1-685b-8114-780a-a43425fb167d@huitema.net> <74e8271a-39cb-ff24-1823-ba9b84689585@huitema.net> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <89193435-5ce1-b484-74b8-5adb430d8583@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:15:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <74e8271a-39cb-ff24-1823-ba9b84689585@huitema.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wU6mICqeKOk43ibVnLEEL8bxmeG8qCK4l" Resent-From: Resent-To: Kathleen.Moriarty@dell.com, acmorton@att.com, Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com, warren@kumari.net, ekr@rtfm.com, kaduk@mit.edu, Paul Hoffman , opsawg@ietf.org, paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Resent-Message-Id: <20180201121532.B0A90131708@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 04:15:32 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Christian's review of draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-13 X-BeenThere: opsawg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: OPSA Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 12:15:33 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --wU6mICqeKOk43ibVnLEEL8bxmeG8qCK4l Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HJbPt2j76sjGr8F1TSJvL9Xmv7F1WP85V"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Christian Huitema , Kathleen Moriarty Cc: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt.all@ietf.org, IETF Discussion Mailing List Message-ID: <89193435-5ce1-b484-74b8-5adb430d8583@cisco.com> Subject: Re: Christian's review of draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-13 References: <1ecac9b1-685b-8114-780a-a43425fb167d@huitema.net> <74e8271a-39cb-ff24-1823-ba9b84689585@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: <74e8271a-39cb-ff24-1823-ba9b84689585@huitema.net> --HJbPt2j76sjGr8F1TSJvL9Xmv7F1WP85V Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------87F8B373A6B1970A0FAAA8FC" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------87F8B373A6B1970A0FAAA8FC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christian, Could you please possibly sit with Kathleen to concisely edit this doc so it can get out the door?=C2=A0 You both may not agree on everything, b= ut perhaps it would be faster than this game of ping pong we have all been watching.=C2=A0 I'd be happy to coordinate a phone call if it helps. Eliot On 01.02.18 02:49, Christian Huitema wrote: > > I am using the side by side feature to review the differences between > draft-13 and draft-15. > > I am commenting here on Kathleen's message, to check whether various > points are addressed. > > > On 1/5/2018 6:07 AM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> Christian, >> >> Thanks for your review. I'll respond inline to make sure we hit each >> point raised. The next version posted may not address your points, >> but the subsequent update should and I expect to have that out soon. >> >> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Kathleen Moriarty >> wrote: >>> Thank you, Christain and others for your reviews. Our running draft >>> has addressed most comments received by mid-IETF week. We are workin= g >>> on the others. We also received some comments from Kyle Rose and >>> Brandon Williams and are working to address those as well. >>> >>> We'll respond on list when we get to this set of comments. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Kathleen >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Christian Huitema wrote: >>>> The high level summary is that draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt version 13= is >>>> significantly improved from previous versions, but that the document= >>>> would benefit a lot from additional work. I am not convinced that th= e >>>> sections on data center and enterprises belong in this specific docu= ment >>>> - they seem too high level to bring serious information to readers. >>>> Maybe stage a separate document to survey enterprise issues in some >>>> depth? I also feel that section 7 is way too speculative for a surve= y >>>> document. >> Section 7 was previously an appendix and maybe belongs back as an >> appendix, we need to figure that out. There is one particular case >> that a commenter saw the value of access (where he didn't in most >> places) that we may need to figure out how to keep that in the body as= >> helpful text. > OK, waiting for the next draft then. >> Since the comments on data center and enterprises is opinion, I'll >> leave the text in for now. Thanks. >> >> ... >>>> 2. Network Service Provider Monitoring >>>> >>>> Section 2, "Network Service Provider Monitoring", has been reorganiz= ed >>>> to focus on management goals rather than simply provide a list of >>>> existing management tools. The description of the trouble shooting t= asks >>>> in section 2.2 is useful. It makes the point that "application serve= r >>>> operators using increased encryption should expect to be called upon= >>>> more frequently to assist with debugging and troubleshooting", and t= hat >>>> could lead to some interesting work in the IETF. >>>> >>>> There is paragraph at the end of section 2.1.2, Troubleshooting, tha= t >>>> states that "the push for encryption by application providers has be= en >>>> motivated by the application of the described techniques." I think t= hat >>>> paragraph is misplaced. As far as I can tell, the application provid= ers >>>> are first concerned with "content management" techniques that modify= >>>> the data stream. Any change of content has the potential to generate= >>>> bugs that are difficult for the application provider to fix. The sec= ond >>>> concern is "ossification", when traffic characterization based on >>>> inferred features of the application traffic leads to adverse >>>> consequences when the application or transport protocols evolve. Nei= ther >>>> of those is directly relevant to the "troubleshooting" task. Maybe m= ove >>>> that paragraph higher in the document, e.g. in the introduction of >>>> section 2? If not that, then maybe move it to section 2.2.2, since o= ne >>>> purpose of application encryption is indeed to defeat differential >>>> treatment in the network. >> I see your point, but am hesitant to move the text up since there is >> no other general description text in that section heading and this >> just covers applications. I want to comb through all of section 2 >> again after this sweep of comments, so we may do a bit more to improve= >> this as well within a wider scope of organizational changes. > > A new paragraph got inserted at the end of section 2.1: "Vendors must > be aware that in order for operators to better troubleshoot and manage > networks with increasing amounts of encrypted traffic, ...". That > paragraph appears to use normative text, "must be enhanced", and loose > keywords like "reveal cleartext network parameters". I don't much like > the idea of a "diagnostic" document making specific recommendations > about the actual remedy. > > Also, "vendors" is a strange word there, as it normally implies a > customer-vendor relation. AFAIK, there is no such relation between > application service providers like Netflix or Google and the managers > of specific networks. > > I get the idea that troubleshooting is a distributed task, that > application providers could help network troubleshooting by providing > better tools, and that doing so would be in everybody's best interest. > But that can be said in a much simpler way than this additional > paragraph, without implying non-existing contractual relations, and > without mandating any specific outcome to the future discussions. > =C2=A0 >>>> I find the discussion of load balancers in section 2.2.1 somewhat >>>> confusing. It seems to cover three functions: load balancers in data= >>>> centers, load balancers integrated with the network, and a network >>>> management function that tries to maintain proper connectivity to >>>> anycast addresses services in the presence of mobility. It might be >>>> useful to move the discussion of "classic" load balancers to section= 3, >>>> and to discuss the problem of anycast continuity in a separate >>>> subsection. The anycast discussion seems to assume that the network >>>> operator alone has to deal with the supposed inadequacies of the >>>> application providers. It seems obvious that this problem would be m= uch >>>> better solved by improved handling of mobility in content distributi= on >>>> networks, rather than by some complex machinery in the network itsel= f. >>>> This might need to be stated. > I am reading draft-15, and this section is still very confusing. For > example, the text says that "Mobile operators deploy integrated load > balancers to assist with maintaining connection state as devices > migrate.=C2=A0 With the proliferation of mobile connected devices, ther= e is > an acute need for connection-oriented protocols that maintain > connections after a network migration by an endpoint." Yet the > definition at the beginning of the section mentions "integrated load > balancers" as "integral part of the service provided by the server > pool behind that load balancer". To me, "integral part of the service" > implies that the load balancer and the server pool as managed by the > same entity, which is providing the application service. Yet, the > discussion after that seems to imply something rather different -- a > middlebox deployed by the network provider without coordination with > the application service provider. > > I would really like to see that text rewritten. > > And I stand by my original comment regarding use of anycast by CDN > providers. The current text assumes some unilateral action by the > network provider. It would be much more productive to explain why > anycast can be problematic in high mobility environments, and suggest > a future discussion on how to resolve the problem. For example, TCPM > and QUIC provide support for connection migration, which would > probably yield much better results than guesswork in the middle of the > network. > >>>> Section 2.2.2 on Deep Packet Inspection could state that it is very >>>> often possible to classify traffic based on analysis of the encrypte= d >>>> data.=20 > And now it does. Thanks. >>>> Audio stream, video streams and web traffic have very different >>>> signatures, even when encrypted. At the same time, it should also no= te >>>> that many application providers are actively working to defeat the >>>> "unilateral" traffic classification enabled by these techniques, >>>> complementing encryption with various techniques like multiplexing o= r >>>> padding. We could well observe an arms race between more powerful >>>> network based analysis and smarter application hiding. >>>> >>>> The discussion of performance enhancing proxies in section 2.2.3 sta= tes >>>> that "This optimization at network edges measurably improves real-ti= me >>>> transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks with large >>>> capacity-variation (such as mobile/cellular networks)." This is not = a >>>> consensual statement. Operators do indeed hope that deploying such >>>> proxies will improve performance, but independent measurements have >>>> shown that such proxies often in fact degrade performance. The studi= es >>>> that show improvement tend to be based on old network technologies, = or >>>> on ancient TCP stacks. If the authors want to keep a statement like >>>> that, they should add references to actual measurements. At a minimu= m, >>>> the text should note that many application providers disagree with t= he >>>> assessment presented here, and that the development of encrypted >>>> transports such as QUIC is largely motivated by the desire to mitiga= te >>>> the negative effects of such "performance-dehancing" proxies. >> Do you have references to the studies you are referring to as that >> would be helpful. Thanks. > > I am searching for references. But I can propose text: > > Not everybody agrees that "performance enhancing proxies" actually > enhance performance in the long term. Proxies are typically measured > against a nominal version of the transport protocol, and may fix > issues encountered in that protocol version in a specific environment. > On the other hand, by "taking responsibility" for the transport > protocol, proxies eschew the future benefits of transport protocol > improvement in the endpoints. For example, there is active research on > better congestion protocols, or better error recovery algorithms, > including algorithms better adapted to wireless networks. The > resulting improvements can be quickly deployed by means of system > updates, or even application updates in the case of transport > protocols like QUIC. Experience shows that network devices are not > updated with the same frequency. An up-to-date endpoint would have > benefited from the protocol updates, but would be stuck with the > legacy performance if it must still use the legacy "optimizer". > >>>> The discussion of caching in section 2.2.5 correctly states the tens= ion >>>> between network usage and application control. It could also state t= he >>>> inherent privacy risk associated with network based caches: they wil= l >>>> provide a log of which users accessed what cached content. There is = a >>>> reference to draft-thomson-http-bc-01, but as far as I know the auth= ors >>>> have abandoned it, in part because they could not solve the related >>>> privacy issues. In any case, that draft expired several month ago, a= nd >>>> the reference is probably not appropriate. >> Other comments led to that text being updated for the next version. >> The comments received took this as one of many examples, perhaps there= >> is a better example that could be used instead of this draft? >> >> Alternate approaches such as blind caches > target=3D"I-D.thomson-http-bc"/> are being explored to allow= caching >> of encrypted content; however, they still require cooperatio= n between >> the content owners or CDNs and blind caches and fall outside= the scope >> of what is covered in this document. Content delegation sol= ves a data >> visibility problem with the delegated cache, the impact rema= ins for >> the use case where HTTPS encryption limits visibility to off= load from >> congested links. > > This was addressed in a separate thread, thanks. > > But now, we get additional text in section 2.2.6 on content > compression, and a new section 2.2.7 on service function chaining. > > The text in 2.2.6 basically says that when the network sees the same > segments used on multiple connections, it can compress them > efficiently. That's plausible, but just like in section 2.2.5 we have > to note that there is an explicit trade-off between compression and > privacy. The "segments" that could be compressed in 2.2.6 are pretty > much the same as the segments that could be cached in 2.2.5. Exposing > them to the network for compression has pretty much the same effect on > privacy as exposing them to the network for caching. The same caveats > should apply. > > The new section 2.2.7 describes "service function chaining", which is > an architecture for distributed implementation of services. We should > separate there the management function proper, which would distribute > functions already provided by the network provider, and a future > expansion of the network that would provide services currently offered > by application providers. Encryption actually marks a nice > delimitation between these two notions. Network providers may well > convince some application providers to make greater use of their > "service functions", but that's a business negotiation, not an > architecture discussion. If and when application providers decide to > subscribe to the function provided by the network, these application > providers would devise ways to expose the required data. Or then, > maybe not. > > I would suggest writing the section 2.2.7 in a rather different way. > Section 2.2 already discusses various functions that could be provided > by the network, or by the application providers, or by third parties > like CDN. We can not the trend to organize these functions under the > "service function chaining" architecture, and the general limitation > that if the functions are impacted by encryption in the current > architecture, they will remain similarly impacted after the network > provider adopts a "service function chaining" architecture. And leave > it at that. > >>>> In section 2.3.3, Application Layer Gateways, I was wishing it would= say >>>> something about IPv6. But then of course most IPv6 deployments today= >>>> involve a form of NAT64... >> If you have text to suggest, we'd be happy to incorporate it. > "The deployment of IPv6 may well reduce the need for NAT, and the > corresponding requirement for Application Layer Gateways." > >>>> Section 2.3.4 documents the "HTTP Header Insertion" technique. The >>>> relation between that technique and "Network Service Provider >>>> Monitoring" is unclear -- header insertion is certainly not a networ= k >>>> monitoring tool. It is also a highly controversial tool, as document= ed >>>> for example in >>>> https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/7/11173010/verizon-supercookie-fine-= 1-3-million-fcc. >>>> I wonder whether it is appropriate to describe this at all in a docu= ment >>>> dedicated to network management, and my simple suggestion would be t= o >>>> just remove that section altogether. Failing that, the text needs to= be >>>> modified to note the controversial nature of the process, and its im= pact >>>> on privacy. The authors could also note that the function could be >>>> trivially implemented in the client's browsers if it was really need= ed >>>> and approved by the users. There is no technical need to have anythi= ng >>>> like that "in the network". >> I see your point, but operators wanted this text in, so how about a >> modification to the last sentence to try to balance it out more? As I= >> read the text, it describes invasive uses, so I thought that it was >> clearly something the was not without controversy. >> >> When HTTP connections are encrypted to protect users privacy,= >> mobile network service >> providers cannot insert headers to accomplish the, sometimes= >> considered controversial, functions >> above. > s/sometimes/often/? > >>>> 3. Encryption in Hosting SP Environments >>>> >>>> After examining network monitoring in section 2, the draft continues= >>>> with an analysis of "Hosting SP Environments" in section 3, and sect= ion >>>> 4 describes "Encryption for Enterprises". I assume that the initials= SP >>>> stand for "Service Provider" -- spelling it out would not hurt. I re= ally >>>> wonder whether these sections belong in the document at all, rather = than >>>> being published in separate documents. "Hosting Service Provider >>>> Environments" appears to be a subset of the general "Data Center" >>>> problem. It is true that some network providers also provide data ce= nter >>>> services for their customers, but these network providers represent = only >>>> a small fraction of the service hosting industry. Similarly, some >>>> network providers provide services to enterprises, but there is a wi= de >>>> variety of enterprises. It is hard to believe that the authors of an= >>>> individual draft have authority to speak at the same time about netw= ork >>>> services, data centers, and enterprises. In my opinion, it would be >>>> simpler to just excise section 3 and 4 from this draft, and use the >>>> content as input for specific drafts describing issues in data cente= rs >>>> and enterprises. >>>> >> I'd prefer to keep these sections separate and think others feel the >> same way. Hosted data centers can occur in several layers as well. I= >> work for a very large company that provides hosted infrastructure as a= >> service, where others offer hybrid cloud options and other outsourcing= >> options (application service providers, etc.) on top of this layer. >> It seems you may be thinking of this as a higher level of data center >> offerings than what is deployed in industry. I'd prefer not to get >> into listing them out as we would certainly miss some and it could be >> a confusing list that doesn't help the point of the draft. 4 may not >> be just for enterprise outsourcing options as in the IAAS example >> provided. > I think these sections are weak, and do not bring much to the readers. > But I said that already. > > >>>> In any case, I am puzzled by the reference to Data Loss Prevention (= DLP) >>>> in the introduction of section 3.1. Data exfiltration is indeed a >>>> security issue, but I knew it primarily as an issue in enterprise >>>> networks. It does indeed become an issue in data centers when an >>>> enterprise application is hosted outside the data center, but it is = a >>>> bit strange to see the first reference there. I already suggested to= >>>> move section 3 and 4 out to a different document. Failing that, I wo= uld >>>> suggest reversing the order of section 3 and 4, i.e., discuss enterp= rise >>>> issues first and data center issues next. >> I think it was contributed there as a result of offerings to >> customers. Before removing it, we'd have to get confirmation that it >> isn't a service provided to many enterprises with outsourced >> solutions. I am pretty sure I had confirmed this point previously as >> RSA offers multiple DLP solutions at several layers. With a quick >> glance, RSA has cloud and data center buzz words in their product >> offering descriptions in addition to network and endpoint. > > The new text is somewhat better. I wonder whether DLP would merit a > separate subsection. > > Of course the really bad opponents started using encryption long ago, > well before the IETF's push for privacy. This is not exactly a new > problem. Also, I would expect them to use a variety of techniques to > disguise and hide their data streams. Hacking routers comes to mind. > >>>> The discussion of Customer Access Monitoring in section 3.1.1 is a b= it >>>> strange. Most applications control customer access based on the cust= omer >>>> identity, not based on the IP addresses of the customer -- the whole= >>>> point of the "cloud" is that applications can be accessed from anywh= ere. >>>> Some applications do perform additional checks, mainly as a defense >>>> against stolen credentials, and would attempt to block access if the= >>>> network location does not look plausible for this specific user. The= se >>>> are useful techniques, but the relation with encryption of data is >>>> somewhat thin. It seems to reinforce my point that data center issue= s >>>> would best be discussed in a separate document. >>>> >> There are certainly access restrictions based on IP and protocol >> information, which a 5-tuple and a 2-tuple are often adequate. If you= >> are an administrator from a company who outsourced for infrastructure >> and some application support, management access of your customer >> application might be a simple example where this is still used. Sure,= >> users are mobile, but they could VPN to their company network and >> connect from an approved IP. I think some of the use cases described >> are examples that are fine and encryption is a very small shift. In >> some of the examples, they serve as possible ways forward for the >> other use cases that haven't adapted yet. Boiling down the details >> and showing that log improvements and transaction monitoring >> improvements in the application or changes in protocols could ease >> this transition is important IMO. It's been a helpful process for >> some of the participants and I hope it helps for future protocol >> development to engage in these tough discussions understanding the >> perspectives on either end of this debate better. >> >>>> The reminder of section 3 appears to be a high level tutorial on the= >>>> operation of data centers. It is not clear that there is a particula= r >>>> problem with encryption there. Indeed, I note that a lot of operator= s of >>>> big data centers, such as for example AWS, Azure or Google, have >>>> voluntarily pushed for increased used of encryption. I don't learn m= uch >>>> by reading these sections, and I question whether they belong in the= draft. >> I'll read through it again in a final sweep. We haven't gotten >> complaints about this text, but I'll note your concern in my sweep. > > In 3.2.1, you could be a bit more explicit about application logging, > and application manageability in general. Also, maybe not say that > "Application logging currently lacks detail..." Is that true of every > application? In general, I agree that it would be a good thing to > delineate the type of information that data center managers would like > to find in logs. Of course, logging too much has its own issues, such > as exposures to breaches of privacy or to lawsuits. It seems we need > to have a robust discussion leading to some kind of best practice > document. > =C2=A0 >>>> 4. Encryption for Enterprises >>>> >>>> The discussion on encryption in enterprises would probably benefit f= rom >>>> input by a variety of enterprise network managers. I found the >>>> discussion somewhat hard to read. It seems that the authors want to >>>> tackle three issues: the enterprise as a target for security attacks= , >>>> the enterprise as an application provider, and the enterprise as a >>>> network provider. These are discussed in sections 4.1.1, 4.1.2, and >>>> 4.1.3. >>>> >>>> The description of attacks in 4.1.1 is somewhat high level. It start= s >>>> from the statement that "A significant portion of malware hides its >>>> activity within TLS or other encrypted protocols" to draw a requirem= ent >>>> to monitor encrypted traffic, when in practice there are many other >>>> monitoring points, from endpoint monitoring to data base activity lo= gs >>>> to logs at network authentication servers -- as stated in the last >>>> paragraph of the section. >>>> >>>> The monitoring of application performance in enterprises appears >>>> strangely focused on the "IPv6 Destination Option Header (DOH) >>>> implementation of Performance and Diagnostic Metrics (PDM)". I >>>> understand that most big applications solve their monitoring need by= >>>> implementing some form of telemetry, which is not affected at all by= >>>> encryption, yet I see no mention of this telemetry approach in the >>>> discussion. >> Different data centers operate with different architectures and >> approaches. We'd be happy to get text from other network operators. >> I'll also do a sweep of this section and see if I can update it a bit >> more to help along these points. It may come in an update following >> the next one. > > In 4.1.1 there is a discussion relative to BYOD and exfiltration. > Seriously? I mean, if I want to exfiltrate data with my phone, I can > simply copy the data on the phone, and then wait until I am outside > the enterprise network to exfiltrate it. The solutions that I have > seen working involve personalized watermarks in downloaded content and > post facto retribution against the leakers. That is, solutions > designed specifically for the problem, rather than massive fishing > expeditions through encrypted data... >>>> I had a hard time reading section 4.1.3, Enterprise Network Diagnost= ics >>>> and Troubleshooting. It seems to cover a variety of techniques meant= to >>>> monitor application services without actually instrumenting the >>>> application, and as such is not very convincing. >> Yes, the problem conveyed to us is that there are way too many >> applications that do a poor job of providing troubleshooting data, >> that it is hard to get this to an improved state. Since this was >> discussed a few years ago, I started putting comments on drafts to >> request text on logging to help in the long term. The organizations >> with these issues have also started reaching out to offending >> application developers, but it a long road. It is recognized that >> it's a better long term option. I'll see what we can do with the text= >> on this front. > > OK. What don't you just say so? Proper monitoring of application > behavior requires proper instrumentation of the application. When > applications do not have an adequate instrumentation, managers often > resort to network-based monitoring. This is problematic when the > traffic is encrypted." > > My concern is that if an application needs to be updated to allow > monitoring, it is much more beneficial in the long term to do that by > better logging, rather than by somehow weakening the encryption. We > should find a way to say that. > >>>> The meat of section 4 appears to be in section 4.2, which is coverin= g >>>> the issue of data loss prevention, and generally detection of data >>>> exfiltration. Again, this is an issue that would be worth a speciali= zed >>>> draft. >>>> >>>> 5. Security Monitoring for Specific Attack Types >>>> >>>> Looks fine, and this review is already very long. >> Ack, thanks. >> >>>> 6. Application-based Flow Information Visible to a Network >>>> >>>> Do we need this section at all? It seems that most of the informatio= n >>>> could be captured by adding a small subsection to 2.1. Passive Monit= oring. >> IPFIX was added at the request of Benoit to more fully cover network >> management protocols in the document. Brian Trammell provided that >> text, so the next version will have an improved section 6. >> >>>> 7. Impact on Mobility Network Optimizations and New Services >>>> >>>> This section appears to be a mix of replication of statements alread= y >>>> made in section 2, and some speculation on the effect of transport >>>> header encryption, such as deployed in Web RTC (SCTP over DTLS) or >>>> planned in QUIC. There are active discussions in the QUIC WG to prov= ide >>>> alternative to transport header inspection for RTT monitoring, and >>>> possibly also for packet loss monitoring. >>>> >>>> Contrarily to the rest of the document, this section seems speculati= ve >>>> in nature. It discusses the possible effects of transport header >>>> encryption on the possible deployment of new services, which do not >>>> appear to be based on any IETF standard. I think the document would = be >>>> stronger if some of the content of section 7 was moved to the >>>> appropriate part of section 2, and if the speculative statements wer= e >>>> published as a separate document. >> We need to look at section 7 closer and will do so either in the next >> version or one that follows shortly there after. > > It is much shorter now, and that's good. >>>> 8. Response to Increased Encryption and Looking Forward >>>> >>>> Looks reasonable. >> Thanks for your review and helpful comments! Would you be okay with >> an ack for your review and comments in the draft? >> > OK, as long as I am not presented as endorsing the weakening of > encryption... > > -- Christian Huitema --------------87F8B373A6B1970A0FAAA8FC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Christian,

Could you please possibly sit with Kathleen to concisely edit this doc so it can get out the door?=C2=A0 You both may not agree o= n everything, but perhaps it would be faster than this game of ping pong we have all been watching.=C2=A0 I'd be happy to coordinate a phone call if it helps.

Eliot



On 01.02.18 02:49, Christian Huitema wrote:

I am using the side by side feature to review the differences between draft-13 and draft-15.

I am commenting here on Kathleen's message, to check whether various points are addressed.


On 1/5/2018 6:07 AM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
Christian,

Thanks for your review.  I'll respond inline to make sure we hit each
point raised.  The next version posted may not address your points,
but the subsequent update should and I expect to have that out soon.

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com&=
gt; wrote:

Thank you, Christain and others for your reviews=
=2E  Our running draft
has addressed most comments received by mid-IETF week.  We are working
on the others.  We also received some comments from Kyle Rose and
Brandon Williams and are working to address those as well.

We'll respond on list when we get to this set of comments.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:

The high level summary is that draft-mm-wg-eff=
ect-encrypt version 13 is
significantly improved from previous versions, but that the document
would benefit a lot from additional work. I am not convinced that the
sections on data center and enterprises belong in this specific document
- they seem too high level to bring serious information to readers.
Maybe stage a separate document to survey enterprise issues in some
depth? I also feel that section 7 is way too speculative for a survey
document.

Section 7 was previously an appendix and maybe bel=
ongs back as an
appendix, we need to figure that out.  There is one particular case
that a commenter saw the value of access (where he didn't in most
places) that we may need to figure out how to keep that in the body as
helpful text.
OK, waiting for the next draft then.
Since the comments on data center and enterprises is opinion, I'll
leave the text in for now.  Thanks.
... 
2.  Network Service Provider Monitoring

Section 2, "Network Service Provider Monitoring", has been reorganized
to focus on management goals rather than simply provide a list of
existing management tools. The description of the trouble shooting tasks
in section 2.2 is useful. It makes the point that "application server
operators using increased encryption should expect to be called upon
more frequently to assist with debugging and troubleshooting", and that
could lead to some interesting work in the IETF.

There is paragraph at the end of section 2.1.2, Troubleshooting, that
states that "the push for encryption by application providers has been
motivated by the application of the described techniques." I think that
paragraph is misplaced. As far as I can tell, the application providers
are first concerned with "content management" techniques that modify
the data stream. Any change of content has the potential to generate
bugs that are difficult for the application provider to fix. The second
concern is "ossification", when traffic characterization based on
inferred features of the application traffic leads to adverse
consequences when the application or transport protocols evolve. Neither
of those is directly relevant to the "troubleshooting" task. Maybe move
that paragraph higher in the document, e.g. in the introduction of
section 2? If not that, then maybe move it to section 2.2.2, since one
purpose of application encryption is indeed to defeat differential
treatment in the network.

I see your point, but am hesitant to move the text=
 up since there is
no other general description text in that section heading and this
just covers applications.  I want to comb through all of section 2
again after this sweep of comments, so we may do a bit more to improve
this as well within a wider scope of organizational changes.

A new paragraph got inserted at the end of section 2.1: "Vendors must be aware that in order for operators to better troubleshoot and manage networks with increasing amounts of encrypted traffic, ...". That paragraph appears to use normative text, "must be enhanced", and loose keywords like "reveal cleartext network parameters". I don't much like the idea of a "diagnostic" document making specific recommendations about the actual remedy.

Also, "vendors" is a strange word there, as it normally implies a customer-vendor relation. AFAIK, there is no such relation between application service providers like Netflix or Google and the managers of specific networks.

I get the idea that troubleshooting is a distributed task, that application providers could help network troubleshooting by providing better tools, and that doing so would be in everybody's best interest. But that can be said in a much simpler way than this additional paragraph, without implying non-existing contractual relations, and without mandating any specific outcome to the future discussions.
=C2=A0
I find the discussion of load balancers in sec=
tion 2.2.1 somewhat
confusing. It seems to cover three functions: load balancers in data
centers, load balancers integrated with the network, and a network
management function that tries to maintain proper connectivity to
anycast addresses services in the presence of mobility. It might be
useful to move the discussion of "classic" load balancers to section 3,
and to discuss the problem of anycast continuity in a separate
subsection. The anycast discussion seems to assume that the network
operator alone has to deal with the supposed inadequacies of the
application providers. It seems obvious that this problem would be much
better solved by improved handling of mobility in content distribution
networks, rather than by some complex machinery in the network itself.
This might need to be stated.
I am reading draft-15, and this section is still very confusing. For example, the text says that "Mobile operators deploy integrated load balancers to assist with maintaining connection state as devices migrate.=C2=A0 With the proliferation of mobile connected devices, there is an acute need for connection-oriented protocols that maintain connections after a network migration by an endpoint." Yet the definition at the beginning of the section mentions "integrated load balancers" as "integral part of the service provided by the server pool behind that load balancer". To me, "integral part of the service" implies that the load balancer and the server pool as managed by the same entity, which is providing the application service. Yet, the discussion after that seems to imply something rather different -- a middlebox deployed by the network provider without coordination with the application service provider.

I would really like to see that text rewritten.

And I stand by my original comment regarding use of anycast by CDN providers. The current text assumes some unilateral action by the network provider. It would be much more productive to explain why anycast can be problematic in high mobility environments, and suggest a future discussion on how to resolve the problem. For example, TCPM and QUIC provide support for connection migration, which would probably yield much better results than guesswork in the middle of the network.

Section 2.2.2 on Deep Packet Inspection could =
state that it is very
often possible to classify traffic based on analysis of the encrypted
data.
And now it does. Thanks.
Audio stream, video streams and web traffic ha=
ve very different
signatures, even when encrypted. At the same time, it should also note
that many application providers are actively working to defeat the
"unilateral" traffic classification enabled by these techniques,
complementing encryption with various techniques like multiplexing or
padding. We could well observe an arms race between more powerful
network based analysis and smarter application hiding.

The discussion of performance enhancing proxies in section 2.2.3 states
that "This optimization at network edges measurably improves real-time
transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks with large
capacity-variation (such as mobile/cellular networks)." This is not a
consensual statement. Operators do indeed hope that deploying such
proxies will improve performance, but independent measurements have
shown that such proxies often in fact degrade performance. The studies
that show improvement tend to be based on old network technologies, or
on ancient TCP stacks. If the authors want to keep a statement like
that, they should add references to actual measurements. At a minimum,
the text should note that many application providers disagree with the
assessment presented here, and that the development of encrypted
transports such as QUIC is largely motivated by the desire to mitigate
the negative effects of such "performance-dehancing" proxies.

 Do you have references to the studies you are ref=
erring to as that
would be helpful.  Thanks.

I am searching for references. But I can propose text:

Not everybody agrees that "performance enhancing proxies" actually enhance performance in the long term. Proxies are typically measured against a nominal version of the transport protocol, and may fix issues encountered in that protocol version in a specific environment. On the other hand, by "taking responsibility" for the transport protocol, proxies eschew the future benefits of transport protocol improvement in the endpoints. For example, there is active research on better congestion protocols, or better error recovery algorithms, including algorithms better adapted to wireless networks. The resulting improvements can be quickly deployed by means of system updates, or even application updates in the case of transport protocols like QUIC. Experience shows that network devices are not updated with the same frequency. An up-to-date endpoint would have benefited from the protocol updates, but would be stuck with the legacy performance if it must still use the legacy "optimizer".

The discussion of caching in section 2.2.5 cor=
rectly states the tension
between network usage and application control. It could also state the
inherent privacy risk associated with network based caches: they will
provide a log of which users accessed what cached content. There is a
reference to draft-thomson-http-bc-01, but as far as I know the authors
have abandoned it, in part because they could not solve the related
privacy issues. In any case, that draft expired several month ago, and
the reference is probably not appropriate.

Other comments led to that text being updated for =
the next version.
The comments received took this as one of many examples, perhaps there
is a better example that could be used instead of this draft?

          Alternate approaches such as blind caches <xref
          target=3D"I-D.thomson-http-bc"/> are being explored to allow=
 caching
          of encrypted content; however, they still require cooperation b=
etween
          the content owners or CDNs and blind caches and fall outside th=
e scope
          of what is covered in this document.  Content delegation solves=
 a data
          visibility problem with the delegated cache, the impact remains=
 for
          the use case where HTTPS encryption limits visibility to offloa=
d from
          congested links.

This was addressed in a separate thread, thanks.

But now, we get additional text in section 2.2.6 on content compression, and a new section 2.2.7 on service function chaining.<= br>
The text in 2.2.6 basically says that when the network sees the same segments used on multiple connections, it can compress them efficiently. That's plausible, but just like in section 2.2.5 we have to note that there is an explicit trade-off between compression and privacy. The "segments" that could be compressed in 2.2.6 are pretty much the same as the segments that could be cached in 2.2.5. Exposing them to the network for compression has pretty much the same effect on privacy as exposing them to the network for caching. The same caveats should apply.

The new section 2.2.7 describes "service function chaining", which is an architecture for distributed implementation of services. We should separate there the management function proper, which would distribute functions already provided by the network provider, and a future expansion of the network that would provide services currently offered by application providers. Encryption actually marks a nice delimitation between these two notions. Network providers may well convince some application providers to make greater use of their "service functions", but that's a business negotiation, not an architecture discussion. If and when application providers decide to subscribe to the function provided by the network, these application providers would devise ways to expose the required data. Or then, maybe not.

I would suggest writing the section 2.2.7 in a rather different way. Section 2.2 already discusses various functions that could be provided by the network, or by the application providers, or by third parties like CDN. We can not the trend to organize these functions under the "service function chaining" architecture, and the general limitation that if the functions are impacted by encryption in the current architecture, they will remain similarly impacted after the network provider adopts a "service function chaining" architecture. And leave it at that.

In section 2.3.3, Application Layer Gateways, =
I was wishing it would say
something about IPv6. But then of course most IPv6 deployments today
involve a form of NAT64...

If you have text to suggest, we'd be happy to inco=
rporate it.
"The deployment of IPv6 may well reduce the need for NAT, and the corresponding requirement for Application Layer Gateways."


        

          

            
Section 2.3.4 documents the "HTTP Header Inser=
tion" technique. The
relation between that technique and "Network Service Provider
Monitoring" is unclear -- header insertion is certainly not a network
monitoring tool. It is also a highly controversial tool, as documented
for example in
https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/7/11173010/verizon-supercookie-fin=
e-1-3-million-fcc.
I wonder whether it is appropriate to describe this at all in a document
dedicated to network management, and my simple suggestion would be to
just remove that section altogether. Failing that, the text needs to be
modified to note the controversial nature of the process, and its impact
on privacy. The authors could also note that the function could be
trivially implemented in the client's browsers if it was really needed
and approved by the users. There is no technical need to have anything
like that "in the network".


          

        

        
I see your point, but operators wanted this text i=
n, so how about a
modification to the last sentence to try to balance it out more?  As I
read the text, it describes invasive uses, so I thought that it was
clearly something the was not without controversy.

         When HTTP connections are encrypted to protect users privacy,
mobile network service
          providers cannot insert headers to accomplish the, sometimes
considered controversial, functions
          above.

      

      s/sometimes/often/?

      

      

        

          

            
3.  Encryption in Hosting SP Environments

After examining network monitoring in section 2, the draft continues
with an analysis of "Hosting SP Environments" in section 3, and section
4 describes "Encryption for Enterprises". I assume that the initials SP
stand for "Service Provider" -- spelling it out would not hurt. I really
wonder whether these sections belong in the document at all, rather than
being published in separate documents. "Hosting Service Provider
Environments" appears to be a subset of the general "Data Center"
problem. It is true that some network providers also provide data center
services for their customers, but these network providers represent only
a small fraction of the service hosting industry. Similarly, some
network providers provide services to enterprises, but there is a wide
variety of enterprises. It is hard to believe that the authors of an
individual draft have authority to speak at the same time about network
services, data centers, and enterprises. In my opinion, it would be
simpler to just excise section 3 and 4 from this draft, and use the
content as input for specific drafts describing issues in data centers
and enterprises.



          

        

        
I'd prefer to keep these sections separate and thi=
nk others feel the
same way.  Hosted data centers can occur in several layers as well.  I
work for a very large company that provides hosted infrastructure as a
service, where others offer hybrid cloud options and other outsourcing
options (application service providers, etc.) on top of this layer.
It seems you may be thinking of this as a higher level of data center
offerings than what is deployed in industry.  I'd prefer not to get
into listing them out as we would certainly miss some and it could be
a confusing list that doesn't help the point of the draft.  4 may not
be just for enterprise outsourcing options as in the IAAS example
provided.


      

      I think these sections are weak, and do not bring much to the
      readers. But I said that already.

      

      

      

        

        

          

            
In any case, I am puzzled by the reference to =
Data Loss Prevention (DLP)
in the introduction of section 3.1. Data exfiltration is indeed a
security issue, but I knew it primarily as an issue in enterprise
networks. It does indeed become an issue in data centers when an
enterprise application is hosted outside the data center, but it is a
bit strange to see the first reference there. I already suggested to
move section 3 and 4 out to a different document. Failing that, I would
suggest reversing the order of section 3 and 4, i.e., discuss enterprise
issues first and data center issues next.


          

        

        
I think it was contributed there as a result of of=
ferings to
customers.  Before removing it, we'd have to get confirmation that it
isn't a service provided to many enterprises with outsourced
solutions.  I am pretty sure I had confirmed this point previously as
RSA offers multiple DLP solutions at several layers.  With a quick
glance, RSA has cloud and data center buzz words in their product
offering descriptions in addition to network and endpoint.

      

      

      The new text is somewhat better. I wonder whether DLP would merit
      a separate subsection.

      

      Of course the really bad opponents started using encryption long
      ago, well before the IETF's push for privacy. This is not exactly
      a new problem. Also, I would expect them to use a variety of
      techniques to disguise and hide their data streams. Hacking
      routers comes to mind.

      

      

        

          

            
The discussion of Customer Access Monitoring i=
n section 3.1.1 is a bit
strange. Most applications control customer access based on the customer
identity, not based on the IP addresses of the customer -- the whole
point of the "cloud" is that applications can be accessed from anywhere.
Some applications do perform additional checks, mainly as a defense
against stolen credentials, and would attempt to block access if the
network location does not look plausible for this specific user. These
are useful techniques, but the relation with encryption of data is
somewhat thin. It seems to reinforce my point that data center issues
would best be discussed in a separate document.



          

        

        
There are certainly access restrictions based on I=
P and protocol
information, which a 5-tuple and a 2-tuple are often adequate.  If you
are an administrator from a company who outsourced for infrastructure
and some application support, management access of your customer
application might be a simple example where this is still used.  Sure,
users are mobile, but they could VPN to their company network and
connect from an approved IP.  I think some of the use cases described
are examples that are fine and encryption is a very small shift.  In
some of the examples, they serve as possible ways forward for the
other use cases that haven't adapted yet.  Boiling down the details
and showing that log improvements and transaction monitoring
improvements in the application or changes in protocols could ease
this transition is important IMO.  It's been a helpful process for
some of the participants and I hope it helps for future protocol
development to engage in these tough discussions understanding the
perspectives on either end of this debate better.



        

          

            
The reminder of section 3 appears to be a high=
 level tutorial on the
operation of data centers. It is not clear that there is a particular
problem with encryption there. Indeed, I note that a lot of operators of
big data centers, such as for example AWS, Azure or Google, have
voluntarily pushed for increased used of encryption. I don't learn much
by reading these sections, and I question whether they belong in the draf=
t.


          

        

        
I'll read through it again in a final sweep.  We h=
aven't gotten
complaints about this text, but I'll note your concern in my sweep.
=

      

      

      In 3.2.1, you could be a bit more explicit about application
      logging, and application manageability in general. Also, maybe not
      say that "Application logging currently lacks detail..." Is that true of every=

        application? In general, I agree that it would be a good thing
        to delineate the type of information that data center managers
        would like to find in logs. Of course, logging too much has its
        own issues, such as exposures to breaches of privacy or to
        lawsuits. It seems we need to have a robust discussion leading
        to some kind of best practice document.

        =C2=A0 
      

        

          

            
4.  Encryption for Enterprises

The discussion on encryption in enterprises would probably benefit from
input by a variety of enterprise network managers. I found the
discussion somewhat hard to read. It seems that the authors want to
tackle three issues: the enterprise as a target for security attacks,
the enterprise as an application provider, and the enterprise as a
network provider. These are discussed in sections 4.1.1, 4.1.2, and
4.1.3.

The description of attacks in 4.1.1 is somewhat high level. It starts
from the statement that "A significant portion of malware hides its
activity within TLS or other encrypted protocols" to draw a requirement
to monitor encrypted traffic, when in practice there are many other
monitoring points, from endpoint monitoring to data base activity logs
to logs at network authentication servers -- as stated in the last
paragraph of the section.

The monitoring of application performance in enterprises appears
strangely focused on the "IPv6 Destination Option Header (DOH)
implementation of Performance and Diagnostic Metrics (PDM)". I
understand that most big applications solve their monitoring need by
implementing some form of telemetry, which is not affected at all by
encryption, yet I see no mention of this telemetry approach in the
discussion.


          

        

        
Different data centers operate with different arch=
itectures and
approaches. We'd be happy to get text from other network operators.
I'll also do a sweep of this section and see if I can update it a bit
more to help along these points. It may come in an update following
the next one.

      

      

      In 4.1.1 there is a discussion relative to BYOD and exfiltration.
      Seriously? I mean, if I want to exfiltrate data with my phone, I
      can simply copy the data on the phone, and then wait until I am
      outside the enterprise network to exfiltrate it. The solutions
      that I have seen working involve personalized watermarks in
      downloaded content and post facto retribution against the leakers.
      That is, solutions designed specifically for the problem, rather
      than massive fishing expeditions through encrypted data...

      

        

          

            
I had a hard time reading section 4.1.3, Enter=
prise Network Diagnostics
and Troubleshooting. It seems to cover a variety of techniques meant to
monitor application services without actually instrumenting the
application, and as such is not very convincing.


          

        

        
Yes, the problem conveyed to us is that there are =
way too many
applications that do a poor job of providing troubleshooting data,
that it is hard to get this to an improved state.  Since this was
discussed a few years ago, I started putting comments on drafts to
request text on logging to help in the long term.  The organizations
with these issues have also started reaching out to offending
application developers, but it a long road.  It is recognized that
it's a better long term option.  I'll see what we can do with the text
on this front.

      

      

      OK. What don't you just say so? Proper monitoring of application
      behavior requires proper instrumentation of the application. When
      applications do not have an adequate instrumentation, managers
      often resort to network-based monitoring. This is problematic when
      the traffic is encrypted."

      

      My concern is that if an application needs to be updated to allow
      monitoring, it is much more beneficial in the long term to do that
      by better logging, rather than by somehow weakening the
      encryption. We should find a way to say that.

      

      

        

          

            
The meat of section 4 appears to be in section=
 4.2, which is covering
the issue of data loss prevention, and generally detection of data
exfiltration. Again, this is an issue that would be worth a specialized
draft.

5.  Security Monitoring for Specific Attack Types

Looks fine, and this review is already very long.


          

        

        
Ack, thanks.



        

          

            
6.  Application-based Flow Information Visible=
 to a Network

Do we need this section at all? It seems that most of the information
could be captured by adding a small subsection to 2.1. Passive Monitoring=
=2E


          

        

        
IPFIX was added at the request of Benoit to more f=
ully cover network
management protocols in the document.  Brian Trammell provided that
text, so the next version will have an improved section 6.



        

          

            
7.  Impact on Mobility Network Optimizations a=
nd New Services

This section appears to be a mix of replication of statements already
made in section 2, and some speculation on the effect of transport
header encryption, such as deployed in Web RTC (SCTP over DTLS) or
planned in QUIC. There are active discussions in the QUIC WG to provide
alternative to transport header inspection for RTT monitoring, and
possibly also for packet loss monitoring.

Contrarily to the rest of the document, this section seems speculative
in nature. It discusses the possible effects of transport header
encryption on the possible deployment of new services, which do not
appear to be based on any IETF standard. I think the document would be
stronger if some of the content of section 7 was moved to the
appropriate part of section 2, and if the speculative statements were
published as a separate document.


          

        

        
We need to look at section 7 closer and will do so=
 either in the next
version or one that follows shortly there after.

      

      

      It is much shorter now, and that's good.

      

        

        

          

            
8.  Response to Increased Encryption and Looki=
ng Forward

Looks reasonable.


          

        

        
Thanks for your review and helpful comments!  Woul=
d you be okay with
an ack for your review and comments in the draft?



      

      OK, as long as I am not presented as endorsing the weakening of
      encryption...

      

      -- Christian Huitema

    

    

  


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
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Hi Christian,

Thanks again for your review.  I'll respond inline.  In some cases, we
took the feedback from ADs on previous reviews and made no changes to
your points in the previous update.  There was some new text from
other reviewers, so I'll run through your updated comments and
hopefully we can come to quick agreement and move forward.

The quoting on this message is non-existent for some reason, so I'll
do my best using my phone which seems to have it.

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 8:49 PM, Christian Huitema  wrote:
> I am using the side by side feature to review the differences between
> draft-13 and draft-15.
>
> I am commenting here on Kathleen's message, to check whether various points
> are addressed.
>
>
> On 1/5/2018 6:07 AM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>
> Christian,
>
> Thanks for your review.  I'll respond inline to make sure we hit each
> point raised.  The next version posted may not address your points,
> but the subsequent update should and I expect to have that out soon.
>
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
>  wrote:
>
> Thank you, Christain and others for your reviews.  Our running draft
> has addressed most comments received by mid-IETF week.  We are working
> on the others.  We also received some comments from Kyle Rose and
> Brandon Williams and are working to address those as well.
>
> We'll respond on list when we get to this set of comments.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Christian Huitema 
> wrote:
>
> The high level summary is that draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt version 13 is
> significantly improved from previous versions, but that the document
> would benefit a lot from additional work. I am not convinced that the
> sections on data center and enterprises belong in this specific document
> - they seem too high level to bring serious information to readers.
> Maybe stage a separate document to survey enterprise issues in some
> depth? I also feel that section 7 is way too speculative for a survey
> document.
>
> Section 7 was previously an appendix and maybe belongs back as an
> appendix, we need to figure that out.  There is one particular case
> that a commenter saw the value of access (where he didn't in most
> places) that we may need to figure out how to keep that in the body as
> helpful text.
>
> OK, waiting for the next draft then.

Most of section 7 has been removed int he current revision.  A section
remains as it was commented on as being helpful by both Mirja and Kyle
Rose.  The old section 7.4 becomes section 7 in the current revision.

>
> Since the comments on data center and enterprises is opinion, I'll
> leave the text in for now.  Thanks.
>
> ...
>
> 2.  Network Service Provider Monitoring
>
> Section 2, "Network Service Provider Monitoring", has been reorganized
> to focus on management goals rather than simply provide a list of
> existing management tools. The description of the trouble shooting tasks
> in section 2.2 is useful. It makes the point that "application server
> operators using increased encryption should expect to be called upon
> more frequently to assist with debugging and troubleshooting", and that
> could lead to some interesting work in the IETF.
>
> There is paragraph at the end of section 2.1.2, Troubleshooting, that
> states that "the push for encryption by application providers has been
> motivated by the application of the described techniques." I think that
> paragraph is misplaced. As far as I can tell, the application providers
> are first concerned with "content management" techniques that modify
> the data stream. Any change of content has the potential to generate
> bugs that are difficult for the application provider to fix. The second
> concern is "ossification", when traffic characterization based on
> inferred features of the application traffic leads to adverse
> consequences when the application or transport protocols evolve. Neither
> of those is directly relevant to the "troubleshooting" task. Maybe move
> that paragraph higher in the document, e.g. in the introduction of
> section 2? If not that, then maybe move it to section 2.2.2, since one
> purpose of application encryption is indeed to defeat differential
> treatment in the network.
>
> I see your point, but am hesitant to move the text up since there is
> no other general description text in that section heading and this
> just covers applications.  I want to comb through all of section 2
> again after this sweep of comments, so we may do a bit more to improve
> this as well within a wider scope of organizational changes.
>
>
> A new paragraph got inserted at the end of section 2.1: "Vendors must be
> aware that in order for operators to better troubleshoot and manage networks
> with increasing amounts of encrypted traffic, ...". That paragraph appears
> to use normative text, "must be enhanced", and loose keywords like "reveal
> cleartext network parameters". I don't much like the idea of a "diagnostic"
> document making specific recommendations about the actual remedy.

The recommendation for improved logging is made elsewhere in support
of a move to a more encrypted Internet, so I think the intent of the
text is fine as it's a general statement and prescriptive, but I see
your point in the language used and propose the text below.

Cleartext network parameters are already revealed, so I'm not sure
what the issue is with that statement.  I'll change reveal to access,
as if it is there, they can use it and hopefully we move to a place
where operators are working with application providers when developing
protocols to find the balance stated in 7258.

          A gap exists for vendors where built-in diagnostics and
          serviceability is not adequate to provide detailed logging and
          debugging capabilities that, when possible, can access cleartext
          network parameters. In addition to traditional logging and debugging
          methods, packet tracing and inspection along the service path
          provides operators the visibility to continue to diagnose problems
          reported both internally and by their customers.  Additional work on
          this gap would assist network operators to better troubleshoot and
          manage networks with increasing amounts of encrypted traffic.

>
> Also, "vendors" is a strange word there, as it normally implies a
> customer-vendor relation. AFAIK, there is no such relation between
> application service providers like Netflix or Google and the managers of
> specific networks.

The draft does refer to application service providers in relation to
customers as well, so I think vendors is just fine in this regard as
I'm not sure how an operator would refer to the producer of hardware
like routers, switches, NFV devices, etc.  I think we'll leave vendors
as it's the equivalent and it the terminology used by operators.  This
text was a result of the OPS-dir review.

>
> I get the idea that troubleshooting is a distributed task, that application
> providers could help network troubleshooting by providing better tools, and
> that doing so would be in everybody's best interest. But that can be said in
> a much simpler way than this additional paragraph, without implying
> non-existing contractual relations, and without mandating any specific
> outcome to the future discussions.

I think the new text helps with that and I didn't read the past text
the way you are reading it.

>
>
> I find the discussion of load balancers in section 2.2.1 somewhat
> confusing. It seems to cover three functions: load balancers in data
> centers, load balancers integrated with the network, and a network
> management function that tries to maintain proper connectivity to
> anycast addresses services in the presence of mobility. It might be
> useful to move the discussion of "classic" load balancers to section 3,
> and to discuss the problem of anycast continuity in a separate
> subsection. The anycast discussion seems to assume that the network
> operator alone has to deal with the supposed inadequacies of the
> application providers. It seems obvious that this problem would be much
> better solved by improved handling of mobility in content distribution
> networks, rather than by some complex machinery in the network itself.
> This might need to be stated.
>
> I am reading draft-15, and this section is still very confusing. For
> example, the text says that "Mobile operators deploy integrated load
> balancers to assist with maintaining connection state as devices migrate.
> With the proliferation of mobile connected devices, there is an acute need
> for connection-oriented protocols that maintain connections after a network
> migration by an endpoint." Yet the definition at the beginning of the
> section mentions "integrated load balancers" as "integral part of the
> service provided by the server pool behind that load balancer". To me,
> "integral part of the service" implies that the load balancer and the server
> pool as managed by the same entity, which is providing the application
> service. Yet, the discussion after that seems to imply something rather
> different -- a middlebox deployed by the network provider without
> coordination with the application service provider.
>
> I would really like to see that text rewritten.

This text has been reviewed and edited by multiple contributors.
Mirja helped with the last revision I believe as part of her discuss,
so we're inclined to leave it unless you propose text that she agrees
to.

>
> And I stand by my original comment regarding use of anycast by CDN
> providers. The current text assumes some unilateral action by the network
> provider. It would be much more productive to explain why anycast can be
> problematic in high mobility environments,

If you have text to suggest, we're happy to consider it.

and suggest a future discussion
> on how to resolve the problem. For example, TCPM and QUIC provide support
> for connection migration, which would probably yield much better results
> than guesswork in the middle of the network.

We are trying to stay away from recommendations, hence me changing the
last text to point out a gap rather than have it read as a
recommendation.  Your suggestion sounds speculative, so I don't think
it would be a good idea to add that to the draft.

>
> Section 2.2.2 on Deep Packet Inspection could state that it is very
> often possible to classify traffic based on analysis of the encrypted
> data.
>
> And now it does. Thanks.
>
> Audio stream, video streams and web traffic have very different
> signatures, even when encrypted. At the same time, it should also note
> that many application providers are actively working to defeat the
> "unilateral" traffic classification enabled by these techniques,
> complementing encryption with various techniques like multiplexing or
> padding. We could well observe an arms race between more powerful
> network based analysis and smarter application hiding.
>
> The discussion of performance enhancing proxies in section 2.2.3 states
> that "This optimization at network edges measurably improves real-time
> transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks with large
> capacity-variation (such as mobile/cellular networks)." This is not a
> consensual statement. Operators do indeed hope that deploying such
> proxies will improve performance, but independent measurements have
> shown that such proxies often in fact degrade performance. The studies
> that show improvement tend to be based on old network technologies, or
> on ancient TCP stacks. If the authors want to keep a statement like
> that, they should add references to actual measurements. At a minimum,
> the text should note that many application providers disagree with the
> assessment presented here, and that the development of encrypted
> transports such as QUIC is largely motivated by the desire to mitigate
> the negative effects of such "performance-dehancing" proxies.
>
>  Do you have references to the studies you are referring to as that
> would be helpful.  Thanks.
>
>
> I am searching for references. But I can propose text:
>
> Not everybody agrees that "performance enhancing proxies" actually enhance
> performance in the long term. Proxies are typically measured against a
> nominal version of the transport protocol, and may fix issues encountered in
> that protocol version in a specific environment. On the other hand, by
> "taking responsibility" for the transport protocol, proxies eschew the
> future benefits of transport protocol improvement in the endpoints. For
> example, there is active research on better congestion protocols, or better
> error recovery algorithms, including algorithms better adapted to wireless
> networks. The resulting improvements can be quickly deployed by means of
> system updates, or even application updates in the case of transport
> protocols like QUIC. Experience shows that
some
>network devices are not updated
> with the same frequency. An up-to-date endpoint would have benefited from
> the protocol updates, but would be stuck with the legacy performance if it
> must still use the legacy "optimizer".

I'm struggling with this a bit and would like Al to weigh in, the
wording not being neutral with "" and word choices won't be received
well.  From Yoav's posts on middlebox updates to the TLS list, there
are many vendors that are quick to update with protocol developments,
so we don't want to make general statements that aren't necessarily
true, wording has to be very careful.  This text also doesn't account
for overlay protocols either.  We'd need to include references to add
the examples, so if you have them, that would be helpful.

>
> The discussion of caching in section 2.2.5 correctly states the tension
> between network usage and application control. It could also state the
> inherent privacy risk associated with network based caches: they will
> provide a log of which users accessed what cached content. There is a
> reference to draft-thomson-http-bc-01, but as far as I know the authors
> have abandoned it, in part because they could not solve the related
> privacy issues. In any case, that draft expired several month ago, and
> the reference is probably not appropriate.
>
> Other comments led to that text being updated for the next version.
> The comments received took this as one of many examples, perhaps there
> is a better example that could be used instead of this draft?
>
>           Alternate approaches such as blind caches            target="I-D.thomson-http-bc"/> are being explored to allow caching
>           of encrypted content; however, they still require cooperation
> between
>           the content owners or CDNs and blind caches and fall outside the
> scope
>           of what is covered in this document.  Content delegation solves a
> data
>           visibility problem with the delegated cache, the impact remains
> for
>           the use case where HTTPS encryption limits visibility to offload
> from
>           congested links.
>
>
> This was addressed in a separate thread, thanks.
>
> But now, we get additional text in section 2.2.6 on content compression, and
> a new section 2.2.7 on service function chaining.

These were just existing text that was modified and moved around.

>
> The text in 2.2.6 basically says that when the network sees the same
> segments used on multiple connections, it can compress them efficiently.
> That's plausible, but just like in section 2.2.5 we have to note that there
> is an explicit trade-off between compression and privacy. The "segments"
> that could be compressed in 2.2.6 are pretty much the same as the segments
> that could be cached in 2.2.5. Exposing them to the network for compression
> has pretty much the same effect on privacy as exposing them to the network
> for caching. The same caveats should apply.
>
> The new section 2.2.7 describes "service function chaining", which is an
> architecture for distributed implementation of services. We should separate
> there the management function proper, which would distribute functions
> already provided by the network provider, and a future expansion of the
> network that would provide services currently offered by application
> providers. Encryption actually marks a nice delimitation between these two
> notions. Network providers may well convince some application providers to
> make greater use of their "service functions", but that's a business
> negotiation, not an architecture discussion. If and when application
> providers decide to subscribe to the function provided by the network, these
> application providers would devise ways to expose the required data. Or
> then, maybe not.
>
> I would suggest writing the section 2.2.7 in a rather different way. Section
> 2.2 already discusses various functions that could be provided by the
> network, or by the application providers, or by third parties like CDN. We
> can not the trend to organize these functions under the "service function
> chaining" architecture, and the general limitation that if the functions are
> impacted by encryption in the current architecture, they will remain
> similarly impacted after the network provider adopts a "service function
> chaining" architecture. And leave it at that.

This text is from Alia, I believe and covers the topic pretty well
IMO. I'm inclined to leave it as-is since those in the area are good
with it and it doesn't make any bias statements as far as I can see.
The routing area felt this was important as a lot of their work is
with overlay networks at the moment.

>
> In section 2.3.3, Application Layer Gateways, I was wishing it would say
> something about IPv6. But then of course most IPv6 deployments today
> involve a form of NAT64...
>
> If you have text to suggest, we'd be happy to incorporate it.
>
> "The deployment of IPv6 may well reduce the need for NAT, and the
> corresponding requirement for Application Layer Gateways."

Done, thanks for the text.

>
>
> Section 2.3.4 documents the "HTTP Header Insertion" technique. The
> relation between that technique and "Network Service Provider
> Monitoring" is unclear -- header insertion is certainly not a network
> monitoring tool. It is also a highly controversial tool, as documented
> for example in
> https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/7/11173010/verizon-supercookie-fine-1-3-million-fcc.
> I wonder whether it is appropriate to describe this at all in a document
> dedicated to network management, and my simple suggestion would be to
> just remove that section altogether. Failing that, the text needs to be
> modified to note the controversial nature of the process, and its impact
> on privacy. The authors could also note that the function could be
> trivially implemented in the client's browsers if it was really needed
> and approved by the users. There is no technical need to have anything
> like that "in the network".
>
> I see your point, but operators wanted this text in, so how about a
> modification to the last sentence to try to balance it out more?  As I
> read the text, it describes invasive uses, so I thought that it was
> clearly something the was not without controversy.
>
>          When HTTP connections are encrypted to protect users privacy,
> mobile network service
>           providers cannot insert headers to accomplish the, sometimes
> considered controversial, functions
>           above.
>
> s/sometimes/often/?


This is still subjective.  Any other ideas?  I think sometimes sounds
a little more neutral than often.

>
>
> 3.  Encryption in Hosting SP Environments
>
> After examining network monitoring in section 2, the draft continues
> with an analysis of "Hosting SP Environments" in section 3, and section
> 4 describes "Encryption for Enterprises". I assume that the initials SP
> stand for "Service Provider" -- spelling it out would not hurt. I really
> wonder whether these sections belong in the document at all, rather than
> being published in separate documents. "Hosting Service Provider
> Environments" appears to be a subset of the general "Data Center"
> problem. It is true that some network providers also provide data center
> services for their customers, but these network providers represent only
> a small fraction of the service hosting industry. Similarly, some
> network providers provide services to enterprises, but there is a wide
> variety of enterprises. It is hard to believe that the authors of an
> individual draft have authority to speak at the same time about network
> services, data centers, and enterprises. In my opinion, it would be
> simpler to just excise section 3 and 4 from this draft, and use the
> content as input for specific drafts describing issues in data centers
> and enterprises.
>
> I'd prefer to keep these sections separate and think others feel the
> same way.  Hosted data centers can occur in several layers as well.  I
> work for a very large company that provides hosted infrastructure as a
> service, where others offer hybrid cloud options and other outsourcing
> options (application service providers, etc.) on top of this layer.
> It seems you may be thinking of this as a higher level of data center
> offerings than what is deployed in industry.  I'd prefer not to get
> into listing them out as we would certainly miss some and it could be
> a confusing list that doesn't help the point of the draft.  4 may not
> be just for enterprise outsourcing options as in the IAAS example
> provided.
>
> I think these sections are weak, and do not bring much to the readers. But I
> said that already.
>
>
>
> In any case, I am puzzled by the reference to Data Loss Prevention (DLP)
> in the introduction of section 3.1. Data exfiltration is indeed a
> security issue, but I knew it primarily as an issue in enterprise
> networks. It does indeed become an issue in data centers when an
> enterprise application is hosted outside the data center, but it is a
> bit strange to see the first reference there. I already suggested to
> move section 3 and 4 out to a different document. Failing that, I would
> suggest reversing the order of section 3 and 4, i.e., discuss enterprise
> issues first and data center issues next.
>
> I think it was contributed there as a result of offerings to
> customers.  Before removing it, we'd have to get confirmation that it
> isn't a service provided to many enterprises with outsourced
> solutions.  I am pretty sure I had confirmed this point previously as
> RSA offers multiple DLP solutions at several layers.  With a quick
> glance, RSA has cloud and data center buzz words in their product
> offering descriptions in addition to network and endpoint.
>
>
> The new text is somewhat better. I wonder whether DLP would merit a separate
> subsection.
>
> Of course the really bad opponents started using encryption long ago, well
> before the IETF's push for privacy. This is not exactly a new problem. Also,
> I would expect them to use a variety of techniques to disguise and hide
> their data streams. Hacking routers comes to mind.
>

I believe we state that encryption has been used for a long time by
those with malicious intent somewhere in the draft.

>
> The discussion of Customer Access Monitoring in section 3.1.1 is a bit
> strange. Most applications control customer access based on the customer
> identity, not based on the IP addresses of the customer -- the whole
> point of the "cloud" is that applications can be accessed from anywhere.
> Some applications do perform additional checks, mainly as a defense
> against stolen credentials, and would attempt to block access if the
> network location does not look plausible for this specific user. These
> are useful techniques, but the relation with encryption of data is
> somewhat thin. It seems to reinforce my point that data center issues
> would best be discussed in a separate document.
>
> There are certainly access restrictions based on IP and protocol
> information, which a 5-tuple and a 2-tuple are often adequate.  If you
> are an administrator from a company who outsourced for infrastructure
> and some application support, management access of your customer
> application might be a simple example where this is still used.  Sure,
> users are mobile, but they could VPN to their company network and
> connect from an approved IP.  I think some of the use cases described
> are examples that are fine and encryption is a very small shift.  In
> some of the examples, they serve as possible ways forward for the
> other use cases that haven't adapted yet.  Boiling down the details
> and showing that log improvements and transaction monitoring
> improvements in the application or changes in protocols could ease
> this transition is important IMO.  It's been a helpful process for
> some of the participants and I hope it helps for future protocol
> development to engage in these tough discussions understanding the
> perspectives on either end of this debate better.
>
> The reminder of section 3 appears to be a high level tutorial on the
> operation of data centers. It is not clear that there is a particular
> problem with encryption there. Indeed, I note that a lot of operators of
> big data centers, such as for example AWS, Azure or Google, have
> voluntarily pushed for increased used of encryption. I don't learn much
> by reading these sections, and I question whether they belong in the draft.
>
> I'll read through it again in a final sweep.  We haven't gotten
> complaints about this text, but I'll note your concern in my sweep.
>
>
> In 3.2.1, you could be a bit more explicit about application logging, and
> application manageability in general. Also, maybe not say that "Application
> logging currently lacks detail..." Is that true of every application? In

The problem is pretty wide-spread.

> general, I agree that it would be a good thing to delineate the type of
> information that data center managers would like to find in logs. Of course,
> logging too much has its own issues, such as exposures to breaches of
> privacy or to lawsuits. It seems we need to have a robust discussion leading
> to some kind of best practice document.

I'd love to see follow on work to help tackle this problem with a push
for implementation of the recommendations.  Similar work has been done
int he past, but updates would be good.  We should also be considering
this with our drafts and recommendations within drafts.  I've made a
point of noting that on my IESG reviews when I noticed a gap.

>
>
> 4.  Encryption for Enterprises
>
> The discussion on encryption in enterprises would probably benefit from
> input by a variety of enterprise network managers. I found the
> discussion somewhat hard to read. It seems that the authors want to
> tackle three issues: the enterprise as a target for security attacks,
> the enterprise as an application provider, and the enterprise as a
> network provider. These are discussed in sections 4.1.1, 4.1.2, and
> 4.1.3.
>
> The description of attacks in 4.1.1 is somewhat high level. It starts
> from the statement that "A significant portion of malware hides its
> activity within TLS or other encrypted protocols" to draw a requirement
> to monitor encrypted traffic, when in practice there are many other
> monitoring points, from endpoint monitoring to data base activity logs
> to logs at network authentication servers -- as stated in the last
> paragraph of the section.
>
> The monitoring of application performance in enterprises appears
> strangely focused on the "IPv6 Destination Option Header (DOH)
> implementation of Performance and Diagnostic Metrics (PDM)". I
> understand that most big applications solve their monitoring need by
> implementing some form of telemetry, which is not affected at all by
> encryption, yet I see no mention of this telemetry approach in the
> discussion.
>
> Different data centers operate with different architectures and
> approaches. We'd be happy to get text from other network operators.
> I'll also do a sweep of this section and see if I can update it a bit
> more to help along these points. It may come in an update following
> the next one.
>
>
> In 4.1.1 there is a discussion relative to BYOD and exfiltration. Seriously?
> I mean, if I want to exfiltrate data with my phone, I can simply copy the
> data on the phone, and then wait until I am outside the enterprise network
> to exfiltrate it. The solutions that I have seen working involve
> personalized watermarks in downloaded content and post facto retribution
> against the leakers. That is, solutions designed specifically for the
> problem, rather than massive fishing expeditions through encrypted data...

Sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't done through other means and it
is.  Outsiders who gain access to the internal network are the ones
that exfiltrate data through the network.  There are many documented
attacks that target home equipment from key people in organizations
and use that to gain access to the network.  This is really not
uncommon behavior and is seen often by incident responders.

>
> I had a hard time reading section 4.1.3, Enterprise Network Diagnostics
> and Troubleshooting. It seems to cover a variety of techniques meant to
> monitor application services without actually instrumenting the
> application, and as such is not very convincing.
>
> Yes, the problem conveyed to us is that there are way too many
> applications that do a poor job of providing troubleshooting data,
> that it is hard to get this to an improved state.  Since this was
> discussed a few years ago, I started putting comments on drafts to
> request text on logging to help in the long term.  The organizations
> with these issues have also started reaching out to offending
> application developers, but it a long road.  It is recognized that
> it's a better long term option.  I'll see what we can do with the text
> on this front.
>
>
> OK. What don't you just say so? Proper monitoring of application behavior
> requires proper instrumentation of the application. When applications do not
> have an adequate instrumentation, managers often resort to network-based
> monitoring. This is problematic when the traffic is encrypted."

This is stated in the draft in several places already.  I'm not sure
adding it more would be helpful.  The edited paragraph above does just
this, so if we should edit that paragraph again, that's fine.  We are
all in agreement.  One of the purposes of this document is to
highlight these gaps so that operators will have ways to manage the
network going forward.  They support encryption and user privacy too,
but have a job to do and are trying to figure out what that means.

>
> My concern is that if an application needs to be updated to allow
> monitoring, it is much more beneficial in the long term to do that by better
> logging, rather than by somehow weakening the encryption. We should find a
> way to say that.
>
>
> The meat of section 4 appears to be in section 4.2, which is covering
> the issue of data loss prevention, and generally detection of data
> exfiltration. Again, this is an issue that would be worth a specialized
> draft.
>
> 5.  Security Monitoring for Specific Attack Types
>
> Looks fine, and this review is already very long.
>
> Ack, thanks.
>
> 6.  Application-based Flow Information Visible to a Network
>
> Do we need this section at all? It seems that most of the information
> could be captured by adding a small subsection to 2.1. Passive Monitoring.
>
> IPFIX was added at the request of Benoit to more fully cover network
> management protocols in the document.  Brian Trammell provided that
> text, so the next version will have an improved section 6.
>
> 7.  Impact on Mobility Network Optimizations and New Services
>
> This section appears to be a mix of replication of statements already
> made in section 2, and some speculation on the effect of transport
> header encryption, such as deployed in Web RTC (SCTP over DTLS) or
> planned in QUIC. There are active discussions in the QUIC WG to provide
> alternative to transport header inspection for RTT monitoring, and
> possibly also for packet loss monitoring.
>
> Contrarily to the rest of the document, this section seems speculative
> in nature. It discusses the possible effects of transport header
> encryption on the possible deployment of new services, which do not
> appear to be based on any IETF standard. I think the document would be
> stronger if some of the content of section 7 was moved to the
> appropriate part of section 2, and if the speculative statements were
> published as a separate document.
>
> We need to look at section 7 closer and will do so either in the next
> version or one that follows shortly there after.
>
>
> It is much shorter now, and that's good.
>
> 8.  Response to Increased Encryption and Looking Forward
>
> Looks reasonable.
>
> Thanks for your review and helpful comments!  Would you be okay with
> an ack for your review and comments in the draft?
>
> OK, as long as I am not presented as endorsing the weakening of
> encryption...

I don't read the draft as doing that, but I'll leave this as your
call.  Al and I both support confidentiality for security and privacy
purposes, but unless you work through the hurdles, you'll continue to
have problems deploying encryption.  This is a first step in getting
people to work together to create a balance and see increased
deployment of secure encryption.

Thanks, again!
>
> -- Christian Huitema



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Fri Feb  2 06:30:55 2018
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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Really thanks a lot for all the work on this document! I changed my position
from discuss to no objection with these edits now because I think there are
still things that could be improved to make the document more useful. However,
I also think that it is important to publish this document soonish and I don't
think any additional delay would help the message significantly.

-------------------------------
Old comment for the record:
-------------------------------

I would be a 'Yes' because I think this document is very valuable, however, I
think it could be structured better to provide more value. The document is
rather long and has some redundancy due to the structure: while sections 2.-4.
are split based on the type of network operator, sections 5. and 6. are split
based on the protocol layer. Further I think section 2 could be further
extended because there are more cases to cover, also see (section 3 of)
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits-03. See for
more concrete and mostly editorial comments below:

1) sec 2.1.1: "The definition of a flow will be based on a
   combination of header fields, often as many as five for 5-tuple flows
  (including addresses and ports for source and destination, and one
   additional field such as the DSCP or other priority marking)."
Usually the 5th field is the protocol number; I'm not aware of any load
balancers that look at DSCP...?

2) sec 2.1.4 seems to cover two different cases: caching and differential
treatment

3) sec 2.1.6. should probably be called "Content Filtering" and "Mobility
Middlebox Content Filtering" should be an own subsection, as parental filtering
is not specific to mobile networks.

4) I don't really understand why sec 2.1.7 "Access and Policy Enforcement" is a
subsection of 2.1 "Middlebox Monitoring". Was that on purpose or an error?
Actually I don't really understand the structure of section 2 at all. What's
the difference between 2.1 and 2.2? I would group section 2.1.1, 2.1.2, and
2.1.3 under Traffic Monitoring and move all other subsections of 2.1 one level
up...

5) sec 3 rather describes how encryption is already used and doesn't not really
discuss any effects of increased use of encryption.

6) there is quite some overlap between section 2 and 4.1.3. as the problems on
monitoring/troubleshoot are the same for enterprise network and other networks;
the only difference is that in enterprises TLS interception may be acceptable
while it's not for network operators. However, it would still be good to better
align these sections.

7) section 6 only describes with information is visible but not how and if this
information is used and what would happen if this information would go away.

8) section 7 should be integrated in the introduction because it sets the
context for this document and it's not needed to have read the rest of the
document to understand this section.



From nobody Fri Feb  2 07:19:59 2018
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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 10:19:09 -0500
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On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind  =
wrote:
> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Really thanks a lot for all the work on this document! I changed my posit=
ion
> from discuss to no objection with these edits now because I think there a=
re
> still things that could be improved to make the document more useful. How=
ever,
> I also think that it is important to publish this document soonish and I =
don't
> think any additional delay would help the message significantly.

Thanks, Mirja.  I agree.  We were hesitant to change the text more
after the extensive IESG round of comments since we wanted to keep it
close to what people agreed on so this wouldn't take too long to get
out if modifications caused problems.

Best regards,
Kathleen

>
> -------------------------------
> Old comment for the record:
> -------------------------------
>
> I would be a 'Yes' because I think this document is very valuable, howeve=
r, I
> think it could be structured better to provide more value. The document i=
s
> rather long and has some redundancy due to the structure: while sections =
2.-4.
> are split based on the type of network operator, sections 5. and 6. are s=
plit
> based on the protocol layer. Further I think section 2 could be further
> extended because there are more cases to cover, also see (section 3 of)
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits-03. See =
for
> more concrete and mostly editorial comments below:
>
> 1) sec 2.1.1: "The definition of a flow will be based on a
>    combination of header fields, often as many as five for 5-tuple flows
>   (including addresses and ports for source and destination, and one
>    additional field such as the DSCP or other priority marking)."
> Usually the 5th field is the protocol number; I'm not aware of any load
> balancers that look at DSCP...?
>
> 2) sec 2.1.4 seems to cover two different cases: caching and differential
> treatment
>
> 3) sec 2.1.6. should probably be called "Content Filtering" and "Mobility
> Middlebox Content Filtering" should be an own subsection, as parental fil=
tering
> is not specific to mobile networks.
>
> 4) I don't really understand why sec 2.1.7 "Access and Policy Enforcement=
" is a
> subsection of 2.1 "Middlebox Monitoring". Was that on purpose or an error=
?
> Actually I don't really understand the structure of section 2 at all. Wha=
t's
> the difference between 2.1 and 2.2? I would group section 2.1.1, 2.1.2, a=
nd
> 2.1.3 under Traffic Monitoring and move all other subsections of 2.1 one =
level
> up...
>
> 5) sec 3 rather describes how encryption is already used and doesn't not =
really
> discuss any effects of increased use of encryption.
>
> 6) there is quite some overlap between section 2 and 4.1.3. as the proble=
ms on
> monitoring/troubleshoot are the same for enterprise network and other net=
works;
> the only difference is that in enterprises TLS interception may be accept=
able
> while it's not for network operators. However, it would still be good to =
better
> align these sections.
>
> 7) section 6 only describes with information is visible but not how and i=
f this
> information is used and what would happen if this information would go aw=
ay.
>
> 8) section 7 should be integrated in the introduction because it sets the
> context for this document and it's not needed to have read the rest of th=
e
> document to understand this section.
>
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


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 Yes/Support
I think this document can enhance the flexibility of network traffic managem=
ent for the operator.
Sorry  to reply so late.

Aijun Wang
=46rom China Telecom

> From: Tianran Zhou
> Date: 2018-01-18 11:06
> To: opsawg@ietf.org
> CC: opsawg-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [OPSAWG] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
> Hi WG,
> =20
> The authors of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community have posted the lates=
t drafts to the mailing list, and believe that the document is ready for LC.=

> =20
> This starts a 2 week WG LC on
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
> =20
> Please read the above draft and send any issues, comments, or corrections t=
o this mailing list.
> All supports and concerns are welcome and helpful for the authors.
> =20
> We are also looking for a document shepherd, best with operator background=
, to help the following procedures.=20
> =20
> The WG LC will close on Feb 1, 2018.
> Authors please indicate whether you are aware of any IPR for the draft.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg

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 Yes/Support
I think this docu=
ment can enhance the flexibility of network traffic management for the opera=
tor.
Sorry  to reply so late.
Aijun Wang
=46rom C=
hina Telecom








Date: 2018-01-18 11:06


To: opsawg@ietf.org<=
/div>


Subject: [OPSAWG] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-com=
munity








Hi WG,


 


The authors of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community have posted the la=
test drafts to the mailing list, and believe that the document is ready for L=
C.


 


This starts a 2 week WG LC on



 


Please read the above draft and send any issues, comments, or correctio=
ns to this mailing list.



All supports and concerns are welcome and helpful for the authors.

 


We are also looking for a document shepherd, best with operator backgro=
und, to help the following procedures. 



 


The WG LC will close on Feb 1, 2018.


Authors please indicate whether you are aware of any IPR for the draft.=



 


Thanks,


Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair


 


_______________________________________________


OPSAWG mailing list















=

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To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Mark Nottingham 
From: Eliot Lear 
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To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Mark Nottingham 
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Everyone,

In discussions as part of the GENART review processes, Mark Nottingham
has further clarified his concerns about the use of .well-known.=C2=A0 He=

would prefer that we abandon its use altogether.=C2=A0 He suggests instea=
d
that we use the templating approach for parameters that are coming from
the MUD controller through the use of RFC 6570.=C2=A0 The value of using
templates to me is that MUD controllers can pass additional parameters
to the MUD file server based on their observations of the device.=C2=A0 T=
his
might be due, for instance, to network endpoint assessments (NEA) or for
other reasons.=C2=A0 We might also be able to insert a MUD version for
versions > 1.=C2=A0 What is important is that the elements in the templat=
e be
standardized, and that it be possible for them to be ignored by the MUD
file server if it doesn't understand them.=C2=A0 That permits backward
compatibility.=C2=A0 This also provides the ability to shrink the MUD-URL=
=2E

For these reasons I think this is a good change.=C2=A0 I also hope it wou=
ld
be the last change.

Are people comfortable with this change?

Eliot



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Reviewer: Tim Chown
Review result: Has Nits

I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of
the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included
in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs should
treat these comments  just like any other last call comments.

This document defines a YANG model for a wide variety of NAT functions,
including NAT44, NAT64, CLAT, SIIT and NPT66.

The document is generally well written, and structured appropriately.  There
are some very minor grammatical errors. Appropriate documentation prefixes are
used in the Appendix of examples.

I believe the document is Ready for publication, with Nits.

Note: I am not a YANG doctor; I see that a separate YANG doctor review was
performed, and I assume that review has covered Section 3.

General comment:

This document is targeted to Standards Track, yet defines a YANG model for an
Experimental protocol, NPT66; is that acceptable?  (I don't know, but I feel
the question needs to be raised, given also the text of
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02.)

Nits:

p.4 - I think an Internal Host doesn't really "solicit" a NAT capability; that
implies some messaging between the host and the NAT. Perhaps say "need to use",
or something else.

Appendix - it would perhaps be easier for the reader if the same documentation
prefixes were used to refer to internal and external networks throughout the
examples, though this is only a minor style point.

Section A.11 - the ULA prefixes used here are not (or very unlikely to be!)
true ULAs with randomised prefixes. Again, a style point.  Perhaps some
documentation ULAs need to be defined elsewhere.



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From: Adam Roach 
To: "The IESG" 
Cc: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net, Paul Hoffman , paul.hoffman@vpnc.org
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for all the work that has gone into this document. The framing and tone
is much improved over -10, and the reorganization of section 7 into the rest
of the document helps a lot. I do have a handful of comments. In particular,
I think the omission in section 2.3.4 is very important; however, I
wanted to clear my discuss and trust the sponsoring AD to do the right thing
here rather than re-issuing a different discuss position.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§2.1.2 -- I am surprised that there is so much discussion of fields that are
not generally encrypted in practice (e.g., RTP headers, TCP headers). It may
be worth distinguishing between session-layer, transport-layer and
network-layer security.

(I think I mentioned this in my initial review, and saw neither a response nor a
document change in reaction to it.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§2.2.3 -- This section reads like a set of unfinished "notes to self" for the
authors' later use. Minimally, I would suggest restructuring the sentence
fragments in this section into sentences. I will also note that section 2
indicates that the following sections will discuss both (a) purpose of the
technique, and (b) fields used to achieve this purpose. This section appears
to lack the latter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§2.2.5:

>   For example, network caching of popular content at a
>   location close to the requesting user can improve delivery efficiency
>   (both in terms of lower request response times and reduced use of
>   International Internet links when content is remotely located), and
>   authorized parties acting on their behalf use DPI in combination with
>   content distribution networks to determine if they can intervene
>   effectively.  Caching was first supported in [RFC1945] and continued
>   in the recent update of "Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP/1.1):
>   Caching" in [RFC7234].

The transition from the general case of caching to the specific case of HTTP
proxy caching (and the subsequent change back to the general case) seems
rather abrupt. Consider splitting the HTTP proxy caching out into a separate
paragraph.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§2.2.5:

>   The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/
>   Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilitate
>   delivering same stream to different users, using either unicast or
>   multicast depending on channel conditions to the user.

This passage also reads like outline notes rather than a finished document.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§2.2.5:

>   preserving end-to-end security: AMT, for instance, allows CDNs to

Please expand "AMT".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§2.2.7:

>    A goal is protecting end-user
>    data -- but at the same time not making the network inoperable or
>    unmanageable.

I fear this sentence falls back to the hyperbolic tone that plagued version
-10 of this document. I suggest something more along the lines of "...not
forcing changes to the way networks have historically been operated and
managed" or something similar.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§2.3.2:

>   The customer may need
>   call customer care to find out the reason, both an inconvenience
>   to the customer and additional overhead to the mobile network service
>   provider.

I believe this is false. Please remove this assertion or support it with a
citation.

To my knowledge, standard operating procedure for mobile networks (based on my
personal experience on two different post-paid US carriers and probably half a
dozen pre-paid non-US carriers) is that users are sent an SMS message
explaining the situation. I think the statement above overstates the
inconvenience to both users and operators, and consequently runs the risk of
causing protocol designers to evaluate the impact incorrectly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§2.3.4:

>   Third parties use
>   the inserted information for analytics, customization, advertising,
>   to bill the customer, or to selectively allow or block content.

This is much improved over the previous formulation, but it leaves out a simple
factual statement that is highly relevant when designers are evaluating the
impact of encryption on this behavior. In fact, I would argue that it leaves
out the *most* notable use of these headers: cross-site user tracking. I
suggest amending the list to something like:

    Third parties use the inserted information for analytics, customization,
    advertising, cross-site tracking of users, to bill the customer, or to
    selectively allow or block content.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

§3.3:

>   encryption approach described below.  In most cases, solution have
>   been identified to provide encryption while ensuring management

Nit: "...solutions have..."


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
§3.2.2 and §5.1:

Nit: s/SPAM/spam/g



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From: Tianran Zhou 
To: "opsawg@ietf.org" 
CC: "opsawg-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: CLOSED: WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 06:32:24 +0000
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Subject: [OPSAWG] CLOSED: WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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Hi WG,

The WG LC on draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community has closed.  We've got n=
o objection on this.

One IPR has been disclosed, and all authors have reported their known IPR. =
=20
Still we need a shepherd for this document.  If you are interested, please =
let the chairs know.


Tianran

> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 11:07 AM
> To: opsawg@ietf.org
> Cc: opsawg-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [OPSAWG] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
>=20
> Hi WG,
>=20
> The authors of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community have posted the late=
st
> drafts to the mailing list, and believe that the document is ready for LC=
.
>=20
> This starts a 2 week WG LC on
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>=20
> Please read the above draft and send any issues, comments, or corrections
> to this mailing list.
> All supports and concerns are welcome and helpful for the authors.
>=20
> We are also looking for a document shepherd, best with operator backgroun=
d,
> to help the following procedures.
>=20
> The WG LC will close on Feb 1, 2018.
> Authors please indicate whether you are aware of any IPR for the draft.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


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From: 
To: Tim Chown , "ops-dir@ietf.org" 
CC: "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
Thread-Index: AQHTnrSFyJCTv732w0ylXURu1Mk01KOW+FgQ
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:02:30 +0000
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From: Tim Chown 
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" 
CC: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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From: Tim Chown 
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CC: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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Thread-Topic: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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CC: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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From: Tim Chown 
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Thread-Topic: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Tim Chown 
Cc: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
References: <151785762665.5787.13501700077310392386@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CBF39@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>  <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CC036@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>  <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CC067@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
From: Joe Clarke 
Organization: Cisco
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 11:59:11 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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On 2/6/18 05:48, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Re-,
> 
> Either ways are easy to handle. I do a have a preference (dedicated informative section). 
> 
> I will wait for instructions from the chairs about how to proceed.

I do not have a strong preference, but I do think there will be
additional augmentations the NAT module, and so I lean more towards
another document as not to conflate the work.

Joe

> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>> Envoyé : mardi 6 février 2018 11:17
>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>> opsawg@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 10:13, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Re-,
>>>
>>> Please see inline.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Med
>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>> Envoyé : mardi 6 février 2018 10:38
>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>
>>>> Hi Med,
>>>>
>>>>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 09:02, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for the review.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see inline.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Med
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:tim.chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>>> Envoyé : lundi 5 février 2018 20:07
>>>>>> À : ops-dir@ietf.org
>>>>>> Cc : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>>> Objet : Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reviewer: Tim Chown
>>>>>> Review result: Has Nits
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's
>>>>>> ongoing
>>>>>> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
>>>>>> comments were written with the intent of improving the operational
>> aspects
>>>> of
>>>>>> the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be
>>>> included
>>>>>> in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs
>>>> should
>>>>>> treat these comments  just like any other last call comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This document defines a YANG model for a wide variety of NAT functions,
>>>>>> including NAT44, NAT64, CLAT, SIIT and NPT66.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The document is generally well written, and structured appropriately.
>>>> There
>>>>>> are some very minor grammatical errors. Appropriate documentation
>> prefixes
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> used in the Appendix of examples.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe the document is Ready for publication, with Nits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note: I am not a YANG doctor; I see that a separate YANG doctor review
>> was
>>>>>> performed, and I assume that review has covered Section 3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> General comment:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This document is targeted to Standards Track, yet defines a YANG model
>> for
>>>> an
>>>>>> Experimental protocol, NPT66; is that acceptable?  (I don't know, but I
>>>> feel
>>>>>> the question needs to be raised, given also the text of
>>>>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02.)
>>>>>
>>>>> [Med] The document defines NPTv6 as a "feature". It does not recommend
>> nor
>>>> argue against the use of NPTv6 per se.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, I'm aware of one Standards Track RFC which lists NPTv6 as one of
>> its
>>>> deployment scenarios: RFC6887.
>>>>>
>>>>> ==
>>>>>  PCP can be used in various deployment scenarios, including:
>>>>> ..
>>>>>
>>>>>  o  IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation (NPTv6) [RFC6296]
>>>>> ==
>>>>
>>>> Well, I raise the question for consideration by the IESG
>>>
>>> [Med] Your initial comment was fair, Tim.
>>>
>>> ; while there's a
>>>> precedent here - and probably elsewhere - it feels odd having a Standards
>>>> Track document supporting an Experimental one.
>>>>
>>>> Could the NPTv6 definitions be extracted to a separate RFC, as you have
>> done
>>>> with some other elements, or are they shared with Standards Track
>> mechanisms?
>>>>
>>>
>>> [Med] NPTv6 part can be published in a separate document as an augment to
>> draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang. That is indeed one possibility. Registering an
>> entry in the IETF XML Registry assumes "Specification is Required" and adding
>> a name in the "YANG Module Names" registry is based on "RFC Required". So
>> having an experimental YANG document for NPTv6 would be OK.
>>>
>>> Another approach would be to remove the NPTv6 part from the main YANG
>> module, but define the nptv6 augment in a dedicated section and make it clear
>> that section is not normative. This will be easy to handle.
>>>
>>> Any preference?
>>
>> Either would be an improvement. My preference would be for the first one,
>> given I recall you also have other complementary documents to the main one
>> (and I think the YANG doctor originally asked whether there should be a high
>> level NAT model and then one model per NAT type).
>>
>>>>>> Nits:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> p.4 - I think an Internal Host doesn't really "solicit" a NAT
>> capability;
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> implies some messaging between the host and the NAT. Perhaps say "need
>> to
>>>>>> use",
>>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Med] Works for me. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Appendix - it would perhaps be easier for the reader if the same
>>>>>> documentation
>>>>>> prefixes were used to refer to internal and external networks throughout
>>>> the
>>>>>> examples, though this is only a minor style point.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Med] I updated where it makes sense.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Section A.11 - the ULA prefixes used here are not (or very unlikely to
>>>> be!)
>>>>>> true ULAs with randomised prefixes. Again, a style point.  Perhaps some
>>>>>> documentation ULAs need to be defined elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Med] As explicitly stated in titles ("Example of NPTv6 (RFC6296)" and
>>>> "Connecting two Peer Networks (RFC6296)"), these examples are extracted
>> from
>>>> RFC6296. We are re-using the same prefixes as those in 6296-examples.
>>>>
>>>> Again, it feels odd though looking at them. The alternative is to use a
>> true
>>>> ULA prefix (roll the dice!).
>>>>
>>>
>>> [Med] Deal!
>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tim
> 


From nobody Tue Feb  6 15:36:48 2018
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:36:36 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk 
To: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt.all@ietf.org
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Subject: [OPSAWG] editorial notes on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17
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A few things that earned a red pen while I was reading.
Sadly, I did not have time to correlate with other reviews, so
probably some of these were already caught.

Abstract:

"recognized that making networks unmanageable" (add "that")
comma --> semicolon after outcome

Section 1.1, first paragraph, last sentence: this sentence is pretty
rambly -- "the acceptance of" may be unneeded, and the last clause
could become ", since the latter is more easily deployed than the
former, and is preferrable to no encryption at all"

Page 5, last line, s/enhances/enhance/

Page 6, second paragraph, "preventing the vulnerability described
above by providing an end-to-end solution" -- "providing an
end-to-end solution" does not itself describe a vulnerability.

Page 7, first (partial) paragraph, last sentence: there seem to be
missing or vague (pro)nouns -- who is "they", and the actions are
taken by several what?

Section 2, second pargraph, s/purpose of each technique/purpose of
several techniques/ -- this is not an exhaustive listing.

Section 2.2.1, first paragraph, does "this configuration" inherently
require TLS termination, or only some configurations of it?

Page 12, penultimate and last paragraphs: we seem to talk about
using the sequence number as a cookie before we talk about TCP
allowing the use of server-generated sequence numbers for a side
channel, which seems out of order.

I'm pretty sure (e.g.) Christian already noted that section 2.2.3
reads more like a note-to-self than complete sentences, but just in
case he didn't, it does.

Section 2.2.4, first sentence, s/,/;/ to avoid a comma splice

Page 14, last line, s/changing/changes

Section 2.2.5, first paragraph, last sentence, I think it would help
to clarify the nature of the business risk, since it's not really
covered very much immediately prior.

I'm not sure that the last paragraph of section 2.2.7 adds any
value.

Section 2.3, last sentence, s/,/;/ again

Page 17, last (partial) pargraph, second sentence, s/,/;/
Next sentence, I don't think this si really TLS-specific, and I
might s/where this/that/, if I understand the intent correctly.

I'm always surprised to see "SPAM" in all-caps, as it's not an
acronym or abbreviation.

Page 26, second line, "the storage" (add "the")

Section 4.1.3.2:
second line, s/allow/allows/
s/The use TCP/The use of TCP/
last sentence, "Troubleshooting capabilities with encrypted sessions
from the middlebox may be limited to the use of [...]"

Page 38, first complete sentence, I don't understand what this is
trying to say.  Currently you'll usally see an SNI; is this trying
to say that in a move to a more-encrypted world this signal will go
away?

Section 7.4, I'm a bit confused by the first sentence.  Maybe,
"Transport header encryption prevents trusted transit proxies from
[existing|doing some sort of thing]"?
Or maybe just s/prevents/prohibits/?

Page 41, OS is used before it is expanded.


Hope this is helpful (and feel free to repost somewhere public if
you think it's merited),

Benjamin


From nobody Tue Feb  6 19:10:26 2018
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To: Benjamin Kaduk 
CC: "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt.all@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: editorial notes on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17
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Thank you, Ben.  These are helpful and actionable comments.  If I had time =
before the telechat, I would update.  We=92ll include these just after the =
telechat.

Best,
Kathleen=20

Sent from my mobile device

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 6:36 PM, Benjamin Kaduk  wrote:
>=20
> A few things that earned a red pen while I was reading.
> Sadly, I did not have time to correlate with other reviews, so
> probably some of these were already caught.
>=20
> Abstract:
>=20
> "recognized that making networks unmanageable" (add "that")
> comma --> semicolon after outcome
>=20
> Section 1.1, first paragraph, last sentence: this sentence is pretty
> rambly -- "the acceptance of" may be unneeded, and the last clause
> could become ", since the latter is more easily deployed than the
> former, and is preferrable to no encryption at all"
>=20
> Page 5, last line, s/enhances/enhance/
>=20
> Page 6, second paragraph, "preventing the vulnerability described
> above by providing an end-to-end solution" -- "providing an
> end-to-end solution" does not itself describe a vulnerability.
>=20
> Page 7, first (partial) paragraph, last sentence: there seem to be
> missing or vague (pro)nouns -- who is "they", and the actions are
> taken by several what?
>=20
> Section 2, second pargraph, s/purpose of each technique/purpose of
> several techniques/ -- this is not an exhaustive listing.
>=20
> Section 2.2.1, first paragraph, does "this configuration" inherently
> require TLS termination, or only some configurations of it?
>=20
> Page 12, penultimate and last paragraphs: we seem to talk about
> using the sequence number as a cookie before we talk about TCP
> allowing the use of server-generated sequence numbers for a side
> channel, which seems out of order.
>=20
> I'm pretty sure (e.g.) Christian already noted that section 2.2.3
> reads more like a note-to-self than complete sentences, but just in
> case he didn't, it does.
>=20
> Section 2.2.4, first sentence, s/,/;/ to avoid a comma splice
>=20
> Page 14, last line, s/changing/changes
>=20
> Section 2.2.5, first paragraph, last sentence, I think it would help
> to clarify the nature of the business risk, since it's not really
> covered very much immediately prior.
>=20
> I'm not sure that the last paragraph of section 2.2.7 adds any
> value.
>=20
> Section 2.3, last sentence, s/,/;/ again
>=20
> Page 17, last (partial) pargraph, second sentence, s/,/;/
> Next sentence, I don't think this si really TLS-specific, and I
> might s/where this/that/, if I understand the intent correctly.
>=20
> I'm always surprised to see "SPAM" in all-caps, as it's not an
> acronym or abbreviation.
>=20
> Page 26, second line, "the storage" (add "the")
>=20
> Section 4.1.3.2:
> second line, s/allow/allows/
> s/The use TCP/The use of TCP/
> last sentence, "Troubleshooting capabilities with encrypted sessions
> from the middlebox may be limited to the use of [...]"
>=20
> Page 38, first complete sentence, I don't understand what this is
> trying to say.  Currently you'll usally see an SNI; is this trying
> to say that in a move to a more-encrypted world this signal will go
> away?
>=20
> Section 7.4, I'm a bit confused by the first sentence.  Maybe,
> "Transport header encryption prevents trusted transit proxies from
> [existing|doing some sort of thing]"?
> Or maybe just s/prevents/prohibits/?
>=20
> Page 41, OS is used before it is expanded.
>=20
>=20
> Hope this is helpful (and feel free to repost somewhere public if
> you think it's merited),
>=20
> Benjamin


From nobody Tue Feb  6 21:40:52 2018
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From: Ben Campbell 
To: "The IESG" 
Cc: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net, Paul Hoffman , paul.hoffman@vpnc.org
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a considerably better document than the previous versions I have
reviewed. Thanks for all that work. But of course, I still have some comments
:-)

Substantive Comments:

-2.2.2, 2nd paragraph: "... for example, many
   forms of communications (from isochronous/real-time to bulk/elastic
   file transfer) will take place over HTTP port 80 or port 443, so only
   the messages and higher-layer data will make application
   differentiation possible."

I'm confused about the use of port 443 in that sentence; presumably traffic to
443 will be encrypted and not allow differentiation using higher-layer data.

-2.2.4: This section lacks a discussion of the impact of encryption.

-2.2.5, last paragraph: I understand that techniques that require endpoint
cooperation might be out of scope, but the tone of this paragraph makes it
sound like requiring endpoint cooperation is a negative. Is that the intent?

-2.3, section title: The title is only partially evocative of the section
content. I suggest adding "content filtering".

-2.3.1: I think it might be worth mentioning that an "intercepting certificate"
requires endpoints to be configured to trust that certificate. (I assume we are
not talking about the more unsavory practice of certificates that misrepresent
their subjects.

-2.3.4 I concur with Adam that this section should explicitly mention
"cross-site user tracking" as one of the common motivations for header
insertion/enrichment. I think it should also include a mention of RFC 8165.

-5.2: This section doesn't seem to include discussion of the impact of
encryption.

Editorial and nits:

-IDNits finds a number of unused references, and a few other reference issues.
Please check.

- Abstract: 2nd sentence is hard to parse, and ends with a comma splice.

- 1, 2nd paragraph: " The following informational
   documents consider the end to end (e2e) architectural principle, a
   guiding principle for the development of Internet protocols [RFC2775]
   [RFC3724] [RFC7754]."

Is the comma correct? It currently reads along the lines of "The documents
consider the e2e principle, and we think that it is a guiding principle...",
but I think you might mean "The documents consider the e2e to be a guiding
principle..."

-1, 3rd paragraph: "... (including methods for network
   endpoints where applicable)..."
Should that say "methods that rely on network endpoints"?

-2.1.1: Please expand "CAIDA"

-2.1.1: Paragraph starting with "
   When using increased encryption, operators lose a source of data that
   may be used to debug user issues."
I don't think the operators are the ones using the encreased encryption in that
sentence. Perhaps "When endpoints use increased encryption..." or even (When
increased encryption is used..."

-2.1.3, 2nd paragraph: "The ability to examine layers and payloads
   above transport provides a new range of filtering opportunities at
   each layer in the clear. "
Should "new range" be "increased range"?

-2.1.3, third paragraph: The last sentence seems out of place. Is the point of
the paragraph to point out that the use of these monitoring techniques for DoS
mitigation can't be distinguished from the use of them for privacy violation?

-2.2.1: Please expand "QUIC" and add a citation.

-2.2.3, last sentence: Sentence fragment.

-2.2.4, first sentence: Comma splice.

-2.2.5, first paragraph: " Encryption of packet contents at a given
   protocol layer usually makes DPI processing of that layer and higher
   layers impossible. "

This sentence seems misplaced; the section is not about DPI.

-- same paragraph: I don't understand the point(s) of the last two sentences.

-2.2.5, third paragraph: "The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/
   Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilitate
   delivering same stream to different users, using either unicast or
   multicast depending on channel conditions to the user. "

I can't parse that sentence.

-2.3.3: Please make the "SHOULD" lower case. Since this document does not use
RFC 2119/8174 keywords, a capitalized SHOULD should not appear outside of a
literal quote.

-3: "Businesses understanding the
   threats of monitoring in hosted environments only increased that
   pressure to provide more secure access and session encryption"

Why "only"? That seems to suggest one would expect some different result.

-3.1.2: This section is about Hosting SPs, but the last two paragraphs seem to
be about ASPs. While I realize those may sometimes be the same organization,
they are architecturally distinct.

-3.2.2: "STARTTLS ought have zero effect..."
"Ought to have zero effect" or "has little effect"?  (If the former, it's safe
to say "should" since this draft does not use RFC 2119 keywords.)

-3.2.2, last paragraph: Should "SPAM filtering" be "content-based SPAM
filtering"?

-4.2: What does it mean for tools to "use" keywords? Does this mean "search
for" or "monitor for" keywords?

-5.4: This seems to say that "Detection and Mitigations" involves thousands of
hosts, etc. I think the point is that the botnets themselves may involve
thousands of hosts..."

-7 and subsections: It looks like the editing of this section is not finished;
several sections indicate they are to be deleted.

-7.4: Please describe what you mean by "transit proxies".

I can't parse item 4. The entire section could use proofreading for missing
articles.

-12: Are there really no normative references? The definition of a "normative
reference" is any reference needed to fully implement or _understand_ the
document. This is true for both informational and standards-track documents. Do
you think a reader can fully understand this document if they ignore every
reference?  (I'm willing to accept that the answer might be "yes" given the
nature of this draft--but that situation is rare in practice.)



From nobody Wed Feb  7 00:04:26 2018
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Subject: [OPSAWG] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : A YANG Module for Network Address Translation (NAT)
        Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
                          Senthil Sivakumar
                          Christian Jacquenet
                          Suresh Vinapamula
                          Qin Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-11.txt
	Pages           : 92
	Date            : 2018-02-07

Abstract:
   For the sake of network automation and the need for programming
   Network Address Translation (NAT) function in particular, a data
   model for configuring and managing the NAT is essential.  This
   document defines a YANG module for the NAT function.

   NAT44, Network Address and Protocol Translation from IPv6 Clients to
   IPv4 Servers (NAT64), Customer-side transLATor (CLAT), Stateless IP/
   ICMP Translation (SIIT), Explicit Address Mappings for Stateless IP/
   ICMP Translation (SIIT EAM), and Destination NAT are covered in this
   document.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   Please update these statements with the RFC number to be assigned to
   this document:

      "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"

      "RFC XXXX: A YANG Module for Network Address Translation (NAT)";

      "reference: RFC XXXX"


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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While you are at it, you might like to note

s1.1
/ A NAPT my use /A NAPT may use /

  feature siit {
  description
    ......
       The translator must support the stateless address mapping
       algorithm defined in RFC6052, which is the default behavior.";
    reference
      "RFC 7915: IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm";

If the algorithm in RFC6052 must be supported, I would expect this to
appear in the Reference clause

 list nat64-prefixes {
.....
            Destination-based Pref64::/n is discussed in
            Section 5.1 of [RFC7050]). For example:
            192.0.2.0/24 is mapped to 2001:db8:122:300::/56.
            198.51.100.0/24 is mapped to 2001:db8:122::/48.";
         reference
           "Section 5.1 of RFC7050.";

I see no RFC7050 in the Reference section of the I-D

        leaf logging-enable {
....
          reference
            "Section 2.3 of RFC 6908 and REQ-12 of RFC6888.";
        }

I see no RFC6908 in the Reference section of the I-D

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: "Joe Clarke" ; "Tim Chown" 
Cc: ; ;

Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of
draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10


> Hi Joe, all,
>
> Thanks. Lets' then go that path.
>
> A new version which addresses the comments from Tim (remove the NPTv6
part + some minor edits) is available at:
>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/?include_tex
t=1
>
> Tim, thank you for identifying this issue at this stage of the
publication process.
>
> One logistic question for the NPTv6 document, though: Should it be
published (1) as draft-ietf-ospawg-* given that its content was part of
the document that was accepted by the WG and that passed the WGLC or (2)
as an individual document that will be handed to the AD together with
draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang?
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>


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From: 
To: t.petch 
CC: "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:19:01 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Ben Campbell 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 14:19:45 -0000

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the detailed comments.  We will fold them into a revision
after the telechat (as I have no time before).  We have some editorial
ones from Ben that will be folded in as well.  We were hesitant to
change anything that was not requested as we didn't want to leave the
document in a hung state, otherwise there would have been more
editorial work in section 2 in particular prior to posting this
version.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:40 AM, Ben Campbell  wrote:
> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is a considerably better document than the previous versions I have
> reviewed. Thanks for all that work. But of course, I still have some comments
> :-)
>
> Substantive Comments:
>
> -2.2.2, 2nd paragraph: "... for example, many
>    forms of communications (from isochronous/real-time to bulk/elastic
>    file transfer) will take place over HTTP port 80 or port 443, so only
>    the messages and higher-layer data will make application
>    differentiation possible."
>
> I'm confused about the use of port 443 in that sentence; presumably traffic to
> 443 will be encrypted and not allow differentiation using higher-layer data.
>
> -2.2.4: This section lacks a discussion of the impact of encryption.
>
> -2.2.5, last paragraph: I understand that techniques that require endpoint
> cooperation might be out of scope, but the tone of this paragraph makes it
> sound like requiring endpoint cooperation is a negative. Is that the intent?
>
> -2.3, section title: The title is only partially evocative of the section
> content. I suggest adding "content filtering".
>
> -2.3.1: I think it might be worth mentioning that an "intercepting certificate"
> requires endpoints to be configured to trust that certificate. (I assume we are
> not talking about the more unsavory practice of certificates that misrepresent
> their subjects.
>
> -2.3.4 I concur with Adam that this section should explicitly mention
> "cross-site user tracking" as one of the common motivations for header
> insertion/enrichment. I think it should also include a mention of RFC 8165.
>
> -5.2: This section doesn't seem to include discussion of the impact of
> encryption.
>
> Editorial and nits:
>
> -IDNits finds a number of unused references, and a few other reference issues.
> Please check.
>
> - Abstract: 2nd sentence is hard to parse, and ends with a comma splice.
>
> - 1, 2nd paragraph: " The following informational
>    documents consider the end to end (e2e) architectural principle, a
>    guiding principle for the development of Internet protocols [RFC2775]
>    [RFC3724] [RFC7754]."
>
> Is the comma correct? It currently reads along the lines of "The documents
> consider the e2e principle, and we think that it is a guiding principle...",
> but I think you might mean "The documents consider the e2e to be a guiding
> principle..."
>
> -1, 3rd paragraph: "... (including methods for network
>    endpoints where applicable)..."
> Should that say "methods that rely on network endpoints"?
>
> -2.1.1: Please expand "CAIDA"
>
> -2.1.1: Paragraph starting with "
>    When using increased encryption, operators lose a source of data that
>    may be used to debug user issues."
> I don't think the operators are the ones using the encreased encryption in that
> sentence. Perhaps "When endpoints use increased encryption..." or even (When
> increased encryption is used..."
>
> -2.1.3, 2nd paragraph: "The ability to examine layers and payloads
>    above transport provides a new range of filtering opportunities at
>    each layer in the clear. "
> Should "new range" be "increased range"?
>
> -2.1.3, third paragraph: The last sentence seems out of place. Is the point of
> the paragraph to point out that the use of these monitoring techniques for DoS
> mitigation can't be distinguished from the use of them for privacy violation?
>
> -2.2.1: Please expand "QUIC" and add a citation.
>
> -2.2.3, last sentence: Sentence fragment.
>
> -2.2.4, first sentence: Comma splice.
>
> -2.2.5, first paragraph: " Encryption of packet contents at a given
>    protocol layer usually makes DPI processing of that layer and higher
>    layers impossible. "
>
> This sentence seems misplaced; the section is not about DPI.
>
> -- same paragraph: I don't understand the point(s) of the last two sentences.
>
> -2.2.5, third paragraph: "The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/
>    Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilitate
>    delivering same stream to different users, using either unicast or
>    multicast depending on channel conditions to the user. "
>
> I can't parse that sentence.
>
> -2.3.3: Please make the "SHOULD" lower case. Since this document does not use
> RFC 2119/8174 keywords, a capitalized SHOULD should not appear outside of a
> literal quote.
>
> -3: "Businesses understanding the
>    threats of monitoring in hosted environments only increased that
>    pressure to provide more secure access and session encryption"
>
> Why "only"? That seems to suggest one would expect some different result.
>
> -3.1.2: This section is about Hosting SPs, but the last two paragraphs seem to
> be about ASPs. While I realize those may sometimes be the same organization,
> they are architecturally distinct.
>
> -3.2.2: "STARTTLS ought have zero effect..."
> "Ought to have zero effect" or "has little effect"?  (If the former, it's safe
> to say "should" since this draft does not use RFC 2119 keywords.)
>
> -3.2.2, last paragraph: Should "SPAM filtering" be "content-based SPAM
> filtering"?
>
> -4.2: What does it mean for tools to "use" keywords? Does this mean "search
> for" or "monitor for" keywords?
>
> -5.4: This seems to say that "Detection and Mitigations" involves thousands of
> hosts, etc. I think the point is that the botnets themselves may involve
> thousands of hosts..."
>
> -7 and subsections: It looks like the editing of this section is not finished;
> several sections indicate they are to be deleted.
>
> -7.4: Please describe what you mean by "transit proxies".
>
> I can't parse item 4. The entire section could use proofreading for missing
> articles.
>
> -12: Are there really no normative references? The definition of a "normative
> reference" is any reference needed to fully implement or _understand_ the
> document. This is true for both informational and standards-track documents. Do
> you think a reader can fully understand this document if they ignore every
> reference?  (I'm willing to accept that the answer might be "yes" given the
> nature of this draft--but that situation is rare in practice.)
>
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Wed Feb  7 07:45:33 2018
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Tim Chown 
Cc: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
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From: Joe Clarke 
Organization: Cisco
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:45:27 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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On 2/7/18 03:14, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Joe, all, 
> 
> Thanks. Lets' then go that path.
> 
> A new version which addresses the comments from Tim (remove the NPTv6 part + some minor edits) is available at: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/?include_text=1 
> 
> Tim, thank you for identifying this issue at this stage of the publication process.
> 
> One logistic question for the NPTv6 document, though: Should it be published (1) as draft-ietf-ospawg-* given that its content was part of the document that was accepted by the WG and that passed the WGLC or (2) as an individual document that will be handed to the AD together with draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang?

My preference would be a WG document for the reasons you state, but let
me check with Warren and Ignas.

Joe

> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Joe Clarke [mailto:jclarke@cisco.com]
>> Envoyé : mardi 6 février 2018 17:59
>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Tim Chown
>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>> opsawg@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>
>> On 2/6/18 05:48, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>> Re-,
>>>
>>> Either ways are easy to handle. I do a have a preference (dedicated
>> informative section).
>>>
>>> I will wait for instructions from the chairs about how to proceed.
>>
>> I do not have a strong preference, but I do think there will be
>> additional augmentations the NAT module, and so I lean more towards
>> another document as not to conflate the work.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Med
>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>> Envoyé : mardi 6 février 2018 11:17
>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 10:13, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Re-,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see inline.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Med
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>>> Envoyé : mardi 6 février 2018 10:38
>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>>>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Med,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 09:02, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for the review.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please see inline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Med
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:tim.chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>>>>> Envoyé : lundi 5 février 2018 20:07
>>>>>>>> À : ops-dir@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> Cc : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> Objet : Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reviewer: Tim Chown
>>>>>>>> Review result: Has Nits
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's
>>>>>>>> ongoing
>>>>>>>> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
>> These
>>>>>>>> comments were written with the intent of improving the operational
>>>> aspects
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be
>>>>>> included
>>>>>>>> in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs
>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> treat these comments  just like any other last call comments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This document defines a YANG model for a wide variety of NAT
>> functions,
>>>>>>>> including NAT44, NAT64, CLAT, SIIT and NPT66.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The document is generally well written, and structured appropriately.
>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>> are some very minor grammatical errors. Appropriate documentation
>>>> prefixes
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> used in the Appendix of examples.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe the document is Ready for publication, with Nits.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note: I am not a YANG doctor; I see that a separate YANG doctor review
>>>> was
>>>>>>>> performed, and I assume that review has covered Section 3.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> General comment:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This document is targeted to Standards Track, yet defines a YANG model
>>>> for
>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> Experimental protocol, NPT66; is that acceptable?  (I don't know, but
>> I
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>> the question needs to be raised, given also the text of
>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Med] The document defines NPTv6 as a "feature". It does not recommend
>>>> nor
>>>>>> argue against the use of NPTv6 per se.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FWIW, I'm aware of one Standards Track RFC which lists NPTv6 as one of
>>>> its
>>>>>> deployment scenarios: RFC6887.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>  PCP can be used in various deployment scenarios, including:
>>>>>>> ..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  o  IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation (NPTv6) [RFC6296]
>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I raise the question for consideration by the IESG
>>>>>
>>>>> [Med] Your initial comment was fair, Tim.
>>>>>
>>>>> ; while there's a
>>>>>> precedent here - and probably elsewhere - it feels odd having a
>> Standards
>>>>>> Track document supporting an Experimental one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could the NPTv6 definitions be extracted to a separate RFC, as you have
>>>> done
>>>>>> with some other elements, or are they shared with Standards Track
>>>> mechanisms?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Med] NPTv6 part can be published in a separate document as an augment to
>>>> draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang. That is indeed one possibility. Registering an
>>>> entry in the IETF XML Registry assumes "Specification is Required" and
>> adding
>>>> a name in the "YANG Module Names" registry is based on "RFC Required". So
>>>> having an experimental YANG document for NPTv6 would be OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another approach would be to remove the NPTv6 part from the main YANG
>>>> module, but define the nptv6 augment in a dedicated section and make it
>> clear
>>>> that section is not normative. This will be easy to handle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any preference?
>>>>
>>>> Either would be an improvement. My preference would be for the first one,
>>>> given I recall you also have other complementary documents to the main one
>>>> (and I think the YANG doctor originally asked whether there should be a
>> high
>>>> level NAT model and then one model per NAT type).
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nits:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> p.4 - I think an Internal Host doesn't really "solicit" a NAT
>>>> capability;
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> implies some messaging between the host and the NAT. Perhaps say "need
>>>> to
>>>>>>>> use",
>>>>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Med] Works for me. Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Appendix - it would perhaps be easier for the reader if the same
>>>>>>>> documentation
>>>>>>>> prefixes were used to refer to internal and external networks
>> throughout
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> examples, though this is only a minor style point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Med] I updated where it makes sense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Section A.11 - the ULA prefixes used here are not (or very unlikely to
>>>>>> be!)
>>>>>>>> true ULAs with randomised prefixes. Again, a style point.  Perhaps
>> some
>>>>>>>> documentation ULAs need to be defined elsewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Med] As explicitly stated in titles ("Example of NPTv6 (RFC6296)" and
>>>>>> "Connecting two Peer Networks (RFC6296)"), these examples are extracted
>>>> from
>>>>>> RFC6296. We are re-using the same prefixes as those in 6296-examples.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, it feels odd though looking at them. The alternative is to use a
>>>> true
>>>>>> ULA prefix (roll the dice!).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Med] Deal!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tim
>>>
> 


From nobody Wed Feb  7 08:49:50 2018
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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Med

Looks good.  Two loose ends.

On RFC6052 being a Normative reference from RFC7915 and so not needing
further citing, well yes, I suppose so:-)

On idnits and RFC7050, you cannot have an RFC style reference such as
[RFCnnnn] in the YANG module, with the underlying  in the
html version, because the YANG module must be capable of existing
outside the RFC, in plain text and not in HTML.  This is what
" Section 5.1 of [RFC7050]).  "
looks like to me, an attempt to create an HTML anchor that cannot exist
in  plain text YANG module.  I do not know if idnits is clever enough to
recognise a YANG (or MIB or ... ) module and know that RFC style
references cannot appear in it, although the character string 'RFC nnnn'
or 'RFCnnnn' can do so.

So if you have RFC nnnn in Normative or Informative References, you must
have [RFCnnnn] somewhere in the text of the RFC outside the YANG module;
and vice versa.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: "t.petch" 
Cc: ; 
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of
draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10


> Hi Tom,
>
> Thank you for the careful review.
>
> Please see inline.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : t.petch [mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com]
> > Envoyé : mercredi 7 février 2018 13:01
> > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> > Cc : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
> > Objet : Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of
draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
> >
> > While you are at it, you might like to note
> >
> > s1.1
> > / A NAPT my use /A NAPT may use /
>
> [Med] Fixed.
>
> >
> >   feature siit {
> >   description
> >     ......
> >        The translator must support the stateless address mapping
> >        algorithm defined in RFC6052, which is the default
behavior.";
> >     reference
> >       "RFC 7915: IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm";
> >
> > If the algorithm in RFC6052 must be supported, I would expect this
to
> > appear in the Reference clause
> >
>
> [Med] RFC6052 is not cited because it is already listed as a normative
reference in "RFC 7915: IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm". I thought this
is redundant. No?
>
> >  list nat64-prefixes {
> > .....
> >             Destination-based Pref64::/n is discussed in
> >             Section 5.1 of [RFC7050]). For example:
> >             192.0.2.0/24 is mapped to 2001:db8:122:300::/56.
> >             198.51.100.0/24 is mapped to 2001:db8:122::/48.";
> >          reference
> >            "Section 5.1 of RFC7050.";
> >
> > I see no RFC7050 in the Reference section of the I-D
>
> [Med] Fixed.
>
> What is strange, is that when I run idnits, I do have this error:
>
>   Checking references for intended status: Proposed Standard
>   --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
>
>      (See RFCs 3967 and 4897 for information about using normative
references
>      to lower-maturity documents in RFCs)
>
>   == Unused Reference: 'RFC7050' is defined on line 3585, but no
explicit
>      reference was found in the text
>      '[RFC7050]  Savolainen, T., Korhonen, J., and D. Wing, "Discovery
of...'
>
> It seems that idnits does not look at the citations in the YANG
module.
>
> I made this change to cite that RFC outside the YANG module:
>
> OLD:
>    o  Stateful NAT64
>
> NEW:
>    o  Stateful NAT64 (including with destination-based Pref64::/n
>       RFC7050])
>
> >
> >         leaf logging-enable {
> > ....
> >           reference
> >             "Section 2.3 of RFC 6908 and REQ-12 of RFC6888.";
> >         }
> >
> > I see no RFC6908 in the Reference section of the I-D
> >
>
> [Med] Fixed. Thanks.
>
> Idem as above. I made this change to make idnits happy:
>
> OLD:
>    This YANG module allows to instruct a NAT function to enable the
>    logging feature.
>
> NEW:
>    This YANG module allows to instruct a NAT function to enable the
>    logging feature (Section 2.3 of [RFC6908] and REQ-12 of [RFC6888]).
>
>
> > Tom Petch
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: "Joe Clarke" ; "Tim Chown"

> > Cc: ; ;
> > 
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 8:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of
> > draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
> >
> >
> > > Hi Joe, all,
> > >
> > > Thanks. Lets' then go that path.
> > >
> > > A new version which addresses the comments from Tim (remove the
NPTv6
> > part + some minor edits) is available at:
> > >
> >
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/?include_tex
> > t=1
> > >
> > > Tim, thank you for identifying this issue at this stage of the
> > publication process.
> > >
> > > One logistic question for the NPTv6 document, though: Should it be
> > published (1) as draft-ietf-ospawg-* given that its content was part
of
> > the document that was accepted by the WG and that passed the WGLC or
(2)
> > as an individual document that will be handed to the AD together
with
> > draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Med
> > >
>
>


From nobody Wed Feb  7 13:35:55 2018
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From: Deborah Brungard 
To: "The IESG" 
Cc: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net, Paul Hoffman , paul.hoffman@vpnc.org
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Deborah Brungard has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for handling my other comments, the abstract and intro for setting
context are much improved. I found some sections still though need some
neutrality/tweaking, others have already provided detailed comments.

For me, section 8 as the "way forward" is especially weak and confusing. As the
last section of a very detailed, lengthy document, a more concise,
stronger summary is needed on the purpose of the document.

"Changes to improve encryption or to deploy OS methods have little
   impact on the detection of malicious actors; they already have access
   to strong encryption."

And the last two sentences cast a foreboding outlook:
"..but make passive monitoring broadly cost
   prohibitive.  This is meant to restrict monitoring to sessions where
   there is reason to have suspicion."

The End for this 40-page story?



From nobody Wed Feb  7 14:03:51 2018
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Alia Atlas has entered the following ballot position for
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for the improved document.



From nobody Wed Feb  7 15:13:22 2018
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From: Kees-Jan Hermans 
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So, I=B9ve not been very involved in this process (not at all, really,
although I=B9ve worked on standards before), but my 2 cents from version 17=
:

"For example, findings of
loss and jitter in VoIP traffic can be a predictor of future customer
dissatisfaction (supported by metadata from the RTP/RTCP protocol )
[RFC3550], or increases in DNS response time can generally make
interactive web browsing appear sluggish. But to detect such
problems, the application or service stream must first be
distinguished from others.=B2

Remark: crypto protocols often rely on plaintext counters on the black
side (to protect against replay). Jitter can also be detected by spotting
holes in these counters.

"2.1.3. Traffic Analysis Fingerprinting

Fingerprinting is used in traffic analysis and monitoring to identify
traffic streams that match certain patterns. This technique can be
used with both clear text or encrypted sessions.=B2

Remark: Yes, but obviously with different success rates. Also, the fact
that traffic is encrypted is a fingerprinting characteristic in itself.
Also, crypto protocols have a tendency to contain fingerprintable elements
on the outside of the envelope (eg. Two Ipsec tunnels between the same
endpoints). This requires cooperation with the crypto operators. But I
think that somehow, that is one of the purposes of this document.

"2.2.1. Load Balancers=B2

Remark: '5-tuple' is unexplained at this point in the document.

Remark @2.3.1.: at the risk of sounding somewhat political: are there
really any legit use cases for people wanting to inspect / stop DNS
traffic?

"Another form of content filtering is called parental control=B2

Remark: parental control is a private arrangement - shouldn=B9t that always
be solved at the application end, where data is plaintext anyway?

Chapter 3: Why is 'Hosting SP' Environments abbreviated the way it is? It
just seems to read a bit awkwardly..

Remark: Chapter 3 seems to have been written by someone completely new in
comparison to the other chapters. Also, 2-tuple and 5-tuple re-emerge
here, and are re-defined, although the terms have been used before.

"While overlay network
data encapsulations may be used to indicate the desired isolation,
this is not sufficient to prevent deliberate attacks that are aware
of the use of the overlay network.=B2

Remark: I don=B9t understand this sentence. How does data encapsulation
indicate anything? Isn't it 'provide' in this context? And if it is
'indicate' (as in, from the perspective of the monitor (?)), then the main
sentence seems to me to make no sense.

3.2.2: "Many efforts are emerging to improve user-to-user encryption,
   including promotion of PGP and newer efforts such as Dark Mail
   [DarkMail].  Of course, SPAM filtering will not be possible on
   encrypted content."

Remark: Is this really a practical example? user-to-user email
authenticated with PGP is almost by its very nature not SPAM.

3.3.1 "If session encryption
   is also used, the protocol is likely to be TLS."

Remark: Does this sentence add anything?

3.3.2: General remark: Disk encryption doesn't seem to have an awful lot
to do with monitoring of network streams.

3.3.2: "Transport encryption is likely via TLS."

Remark: Does this sentence add anything?

3.3.2.1: ..."or intellectual property if
   session encryption via TLS is not deployed."

Remark: Why this emphasis on TLS?

3.3.3.1 Remark: 'Of' in title should be 'of'.

3.3.3.1: "or with transport mode, a 5-tuple."

Is that true? Doesn't IPsec transport mode also wrap the payload
completely (and replace the IPPROTO field), thereby hiding 3 of 5 tuples
just as well?

...

I=B9m going to stop here, because I=B9m feeling like I=B9m way too critical=
 for
someone who has hardly bothered with this group before. If so, sorry.


KJ




On 31/01/18 20:05, "OPSAWG on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org"
 wrote:

>
>A new version (-16) has been submitted for draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt:
>https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-16.txt
>
>
>The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>Diff from previous version:
>https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-16
>
>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>submission
>until the diff is available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>IETF Secretariat.
>
>_______________________________________________
>OPSAWG mailing list
>OPSAWG@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF 
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 21:08:29 -0600
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Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Following up on an obscure point ...

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:40 PM, Ben Campbell  wrote:

> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is a considerably better document than the previous versions I have
> reviewed. Thanks for all that work. But of course, I still have some
> comments
> :-)
>
> Substantive Comments:
>
> -2.2.2, 2nd paragraph: "... for example, many
>    forms of communications (from isochronous/real-time to bulk/elastic
>    file transfer) will take place over HTTP port 80 or port 443, so only
>    the messages and higher-layer data will make application
>    differentiation possible."
>
> I'm confused about the use of port 443 in that sentence; presumably
> traffic to
> 443 will be encrypted and not allow differentiation using higher-layer
> data.
>
> -2.2.4: This section lacks a discussion of the impact of encryption.
>
> -2.2.5, last paragraph: I understand that techniques that require endpoint
> cooperation might be out of scope, but the tone of this paragraph makes it
> sound like requiring endpoint cooperation is a negative. Is that the
> intent?
>
> -2.3, section title: The title is only partially evocative of the section
> content. I suggest adding "content filtering".
>
> -2.3.1: I think it might be worth mentioning that an "intercepting
> certificate"
> requires endpoints to be configured to trust that certificate. (I assume
> we are
> not talking about the more unsavory practice of certificates that
> misrepresent
> their subjects.
>
> -2.3.4 I concur with Adam that this section should explicitly mention
> "cross-site user tracking" as one of the common motivations for header
> insertion/enrichment. I think it should also include a mention of RFC 8165.
>
> -5.2: This section doesn't seem to include discussion of the impact of
> encryption.
>
> Editorial and nits:
>
> -IDNits finds a number of unused references, and a few other reference
> issues.
> Please check.
>
> - Abstract: 2nd sentence is hard to parse, and ends with a comma splice.
>
> - 1, 2nd paragraph: " The following informational
>    documents consider the end to end (e2e) architectural principle, a
>    guiding principle for the development of Internet protocols [RFC2775]
>    [RFC3724] [RFC7754]."
>
> Is the comma correct? It currently reads along the lines of "The documents
> consider the e2e principle, and we think that it is a guiding
> principle...",
> but I think you might mean "The documents consider the e2e to be a guiding
> principle..."
>
> -1, 3rd paragraph: "... (including methods for network
>    endpoints where applicable)..."
> Should that say "methods that rely on network endpoints"?
>
> -2.1.1: Please expand "CAIDA"
>
> -2.1.1: Paragraph starting with "
>    When using increased encryption, operators lose a source of data that
>    may be used to debug user issues."
> I don't think the operators are the ones using the encreased encryption in
> that
> sentence. Perhaps "When endpoints use increased encryption..." or even
> (When
> increased encryption is used..."
>
> -2.1.3, 2nd paragraph: "The ability to examine layers and payloads
>    above transport provides a new range of filtering opportunities at
>    each layer in the clear. "
> Should "new range" be "increased range"?
>
> -2.1.3, third paragraph: The last sentence seems out of place. Is the
> point of
> the paragraph to point out that the use of these monitoring techniques for
> DoS
> mitigation can't be distinguished from the use of them for privacy
> violation?
>
> -2.2.1: Please expand "QUIC" and add a citation.
>

QUIC started out as an acronym (and went through two or three variations),
but sometime during the chartering process, the expansion was dropped. QUIC
is both the working group name and abbreviation in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/about/.

But citations are good :-)


>
> -2.2.3, last sentence: Sentence fragment.
>
> -2.2.4, first sentence: Comma splice.
>
> -2.2.5, first paragraph: " Encryption of packet contents at a given
>    protocol layer usually makes DPI processing of that layer and higher
>    layers impossible. "
>
> This sentence seems misplaced; the section is not about DPI.
>
> -- same paragraph: I don't understand the point(s) of the last two
> sentences.
>
> -2.2.5, third paragraph: "The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/
>    Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilitate
>    delivering same stream to different users, using either unicast or
>    multicast depending on channel conditions to the user. "
>
> I can't parse that sentence.
>
> -2.3.3: Please make the "SHOULD" lower case. Since this document does not
> use
> RFC 2119/8174 keywords, a capitalized SHOULD should not appear outside of a
> literal quote.
>
> -3: "Businesses understanding the
>    threats of monitoring in hosted environments only increased that
>    pressure to provide more secure access and session encryption"
>
> Why "only"? That seems to suggest one would expect some different result.
>
> -3.1.2: This section is about Hosting SPs, but the last two paragraphs
> seem to
> be about ASPs. While I realize those may sometimes be the same
> organization,
> they are architecturally distinct.
>
> -3.2.2: "STARTTLS ought have zero effect..."
> "Ought to have zero effect" or "has little effect"?  (If the former, it's
> safe
> to say "should" since this draft does not use RFC 2119 keywords.)
>
> -3.2.2, last paragraph: Should "SPAM filtering" be "content-based SPAM
> filtering"?
>
> -4.2: What does it mean for tools to "use" keywords? Does this mean "search
> for" or "monitor for" keywords?
>
> -5.4: This seems to say that "Detection and Mitigations" involves
> thousands of
> hosts, etc. I think the point is that the botnets themselves may involve
> thousands of hosts..."
>
> -7 and subsections: It looks like the editing of this section is not
> finished;
> several sections indicate they are to be deleted.
>
> -7.4: Please describe what you mean by "transit proxies".
>
> I can't parse item 4. The entire section could use proofreading for missing
> articles.
>
> -12: Are there really no normative references? The definition of a
> "normative
> reference" is any reference needed to fully implement or _understand_ the
> document. This is true for both informational and standards-track
> documents. Do
> you think a reader can fully understand this document if they ignore every
> reference?  (I'm willing to accept that the answer might be "yes" given the
> nature of this draft--but that situation is rare in practice.)
>
>
>

--001a11492528ea3a110564aab9f7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Following up on an obscure point ...

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:40 PM, Ben Ca=
mpbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot positi=
on for

draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection



When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all

email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this

introductory paragraph, however.)





Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/<=
wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.html

for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.





The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/







-----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

COMMENT:

-----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----



This is a considerably better document than the previous versions I have
reviewed. Thanks for all that work. But of course, I still have some commen=
ts

:-)



Substantive Comments:



-2.2.2, 2nd paragraph: "... for example, many

=C2=A0 =C2=A0forms of communications (from isochronous/real-time to bulk/el=
astic

=C2=A0 =C2=A0file transfer) will take place over HTTP port 80 or port 443, =
so only

=C2=A0 =C2=A0the messages and higher-layer data will make application

=C2=A0 =C2=A0differentiation possible."



I'm confused about the use of port 443 in that sentence; presumably tra=
ffic to

443 will be encrypted and not allow differentiation using higher-layer data=
.



-2.2.4: This section lacks a discussion of the impact of encryption.



-2.2.5, last paragraph: I understand that techniques that require endpoint<=
br>
cooperation might be out of scope, but the tone of this paragraph makes it<=
br>
sound like requiring endpoint cooperation is a negative. Is that the intent=
?



-2.3, section title: The title is only partially evocative of the section
content. I suggest adding "content filtering".



-2.3.1: I think it might be worth mentioning that an "intercepting cer=
tificate"

requires endpoints to be configured to trust that certificate. (I assume we=
 are

not talking about the more unsavory practice of certificates that misrepres=
ent

their subjects.



-2.3.4 I concur with Adam that this section should explicitly mention

"cross-site user tracking" as one of the common motivations for h=
eader

insertion/enrichment. I think it should also include a mention of RFC 8165.=




-5.2: This section doesn't seem to include discussion of the impact of<=
br>
encryption.



Editorial and nits:



-IDNits finds a number of unused references, and a few other reference issu=
es.

Please check.



- Abstract: 2nd sentence is hard to parse, and ends with a comma splice.


- 1, 2nd paragraph: " The following informational

=C2=A0 =C2=A0documents consider the end to end (e2e) architectural principl=
e, a

=C2=A0 =C2=A0guiding principle for the development of Internet protocols [R=
FC2775]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC3724] [RFC7754]."



Is the comma correct? It currently reads along the lines of "The docum=
ents

consider the e2e principle, and we think that it is a guiding principle...&=
quot;,

but I think you might mean "The documents consider the e2e to be a gui=
ding

principle..."



-1, 3rd paragraph: "... (including methods for network

=C2=A0 =C2=A0endpoints where applicable)..."

Should that say "methods that rely on network endpoints"?



-2.1.1: Please expand "CAIDA"



-2.1.1: Paragraph starting with "

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When using increased encryption, operators lose a source of da=
ta that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0may be used to debug user issues."

I don't think the operators are the ones using the encreased encryption=
 in that

sentence. Perhaps "When endpoints use increased encryption..." or=
 even (When

increased encryption is used..."



-2.1.3, 2nd paragraph: "The ability to examine layers and payloads

=C2=A0 =C2=A0above transport provides a new range of filtering opportunitie=
s at

=C2=A0 =C2=A0each layer in the clear. "

Should "new range" be "increased range"?



-2.1.3, third paragraph: The last sentence seems out of place. Is the point=
 of

the paragraph to point out that the use of these monitoring techniques for =
DoS

mitigation can't be distinguished from the use of them for privacy viol=
ation?



-2.2.1: Please expand "QUIC" and add a citation.
=


QUIC started out as an acronym (and went through two or=
 three variations), but sometime during the chartering process, the expansi=
on was dropped. QUIC is both the working group name and abbreviation in=C2=
=A0https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/wg/quic/about/.

But citations are=
 good :-)
=C2=A0



-2.2.3, last sentence: Sentence fragment.



-2.2.4, first sentence: Comma splice.



-2.2.5, first paragraph: " Encryption of packet contents at a given
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol layer usually makes DPI processing of that layer and =
higher

=C2=A0 =C2=A0layers impossible. "



This sentence seems misplaced; the section is not about DPI.



-- same paragraph: I don't understand the point(s) of the last two sent=
ences.



-2.2.5, third paragraph: "The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilit=
ate

=C2=A0 =C2=A0delivering same stream to different users, using either unicas=
t or

=C2=A0 =C2=A0multicast depending on channel conditions to the user. "<=
br>


I can't parse that sentence.



-2.3.3: Please make the "SHOULD" lower case. Since this document =
does not use

RFC 2119/8174 keywords, a capitalized SHOULD should not appear outside of a=


literal quote.



-3: "Businesses understanding the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0threats of monitoring in hosted environments only increased th=
at

=C2=A0 =C2=A0pressure to provide more secure access and session encryption&=
quot;



Why "only"? That seems to suggest one would expect some different=
 result.



-3.1.2: This section is about Hosting SPs, but the last two paragraphs seem=
 to

be about ASPs. While I realize those may sometimes be the same organization=
,

they are architecturally distinct.



-3.2.2: "STARTTLS ought have zero effect..."

"Ought to have zero effect" or "has little effect"?=C2=
=A0 (If the former, it's safe

to say "should" since this draft does not use RFC 2119 keywords.)=




-3.2.2, last paragraph: Should "SPAM filtering" be "content-=
based SPAM

filtering"?



-4.2: What does it mean for tools to "use" keywords? Does this me=
an "search

for" or "monitor for" keywords?



-5.4: This seems to say that "Detection and Mitigations" involves=
 thousands of

hosts, etc. I think the point is that the botnets themselves may involve
thousands of hosts..."



-7 and subsections: It looks like the editing of this section is not finish=
ed;

several sections indicate they are to be deleted.



-7.4: Please describe what you mean by "transit proxies".



I can't parse item 4. The entire section could use proofreading for mis=
sing

articles.



-12: Are there really no normative references? The definition of a "no=
rmative

reference" is any reference needed to fully implement or _understand_ =
the

document. This is true for both informational and standards-track documents=
. Do

you think a reader can fully understand this document if they ignore every<=
br>
reference?=C2=A0 (I'm willing to accept that the answer might be "=
yes" given the

nature of this draft--but that situation is rare in practice.)









--001a11492528ea3a110564aab9f7--


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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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> On Feb 7, 2018, at 9:08 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF =
 wrote:
>=20
> -2.2.1: Please expand "QUIC" and add a citation.
>=20
> QUIC started out as an acronym (and went through two or three =
variations), but sometime during the chartering process, the expansion =
was dropped. QUIC is both the working group name and abbreviation in =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/about/.

Ah, good point.

>=20
> But citations are good :-)

Yes :-)

Ben.


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 23:13:55 -0500
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To: Ben Campbell 
Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , opsawg@ietf.org,  Warren Kumari , The IESG , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Ben Campbell  wrote:
>
>
>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 9:08 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF  wrote:
>>
>> -2.2.1: Please expand "QUIC" and add a citation.
>>
>> QUIC started out as an acronym (and went through two or three variations), but sometime during the chartering process, the expansion was dropped. QUIC is both the working group name and abbreviation in https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/about/.
>
> Ah, good point.
>
>>
>> But citations are good :-)
>
> Yes :-)
>

Thanks for the clarification, we'll take care of the updates!

> Ben.
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Eric Rescorla 
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: Discuss

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have completely re-reviewed the latest version. First, I want to
thank you for toning down some of the material that I was concerned
about.

Unfortunately, the fundamental concern that motivated my DISCUSS
remains: I do not believe that this document matches the consensus
of the IETF community.

Specifically, this document takes at face value a large number of
claims about the necessity/value of certain practices that either are
controversial within the IETF or that there is, I believe, rough
consensus to be actively bad, and that in many cases, encryption is
specifically designed to prevent. I have noted a number of these
below, but I do not believe that this is an exhaustive list (going
through my previous DISCUSS, I see that I noted a number of these but
that still appear to be unaddressed.)


DISCUSS
   session encryption that deployed more easily instead of no
   encryption.

I think I understand what you are saying here, but the term
"breakable" seems very unfortunate, especially in the context of this
document. The only such shift I am aware of that has received
acceptance in IETF is one from always requiring fully authenticated
encryption to allowing unauthenticated encryption, which you document
in the next paragraph. I recognize that there are other perspectives
(e.g., those in draft-rhrd) but those are pretty far from IETF
consenus. Accordingly, I think you should remove this sentence.


   motivation outside of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are
   driving end-to-end encryption for these content providers.

This section seems kind of confusing, at least as applied to
HTTP. There are three kinds of cache in HTTP:

- Reverse proxy caches (the kind CDNs run)
- Explicit forward proxy caches
- "Transparent" intercepting caches

The first of these move to HTTPS just fine and that's typically how
CDNs do it.  Explicit forward proxy caches are largely going away, but
part of the point of this kind of end-to-end encryption is to hide
data from those caches.  Transparent intercepting caches that the user
didn't opt into are a bad thing, so having them go away is a positive.

   document existing practices, the development of IETF protocols
   follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804].

This is pretty opaque in this context. It should explicitly state that
the IETF's position is that we do not engineer for these use cases,
not just to cite the RFCs.


   based billing, or for other reasons, possibly considered
   inappropriate by some.  See RFC7754 [RFC7754] for a survey of
   Internet filtering techniques and motivations.  This section is

I don't think this accurately represents the RFC, which makes clear
that the IAB consensus is that filtering is bad:

" From a technical perspective, there are no perfect or even good
solutions -- there is only least bad.  On that front, we posit that a
hybrid approach that combines endpoint-based filtering with network
filtering may prove least damaging.  An endpoint may choose to
participate in a filtering regime in exchange for the network
providing broader unfiltered access."


   detect or prevent attacks as well as to guarantee service level
   expectations.  In some cases, alternate options are available when
   encryption is in use, but techniques like that of data leakage

These certainly are use cases, but you really need to acknowledge that
it's also a form of user surveillance.


   Some DLP tools intercept traffic at the Internet gateway or proxy
   services with the ability to man-in-the-middle (MiTM) encrypted
   session traffic (HTTP/TLS).  These tools may use key words important
   to the enterprise including business sensitive information such as
   trade secrets, financial data, personally identifiable information
   (PII), or personal health information (PHI).  Various techniques are
   used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and other purposes, and
   are described in "Summarizing Known Attacks on TLS and DTLS"
   [RFC7457].

As far as I know, the MITM techniques used by middleboxes are not
described in 7457.

You also need to cover the fact that these MITM are a threat to user
security because they are often so badly implemented.


S 5.4.
It's pretty odd to talk about phishing without acknowledging that by
far the largest anti-phishing platform (Safe Browsing) operates in the
client, not be network interception.


    The transport header encryption prevents trusted transit proxies.  It
   may be that the benefits of such proxies could be achieved by end to

You don't define a "trusted transit proxy" so I don't know what this
means, and whether they provide any benefit, but this certainly sounds
euphemistic. Generally, "trusted" is not an adjective we associate
with network proxies operated by third parties.


   In the best case scenario, engineers and other innovators would work
   to solve the problems at hand in new ways rather than prevent the use
   of encryption.  As stated in [RFC7258], "an appropriate balance
   (between network management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time
   as real instances of this tension are considered."

Much of the context of this debate is about whether operators not
being able to do the things in this document is a problem, and this
seems to presume the answer.


   This optimization at network edges measurably improves real-time
   transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks with large

Do you have a citation for this claim?


   Web proxies are sometimes used to filter traffic, allowing only
   access to well-known sites found to be legitimate and free of malware
   on last check by a proxy service company.  This type of restriction
   is usually not noticeable in a corporate setting as the typical
   corporate user does not access sites that are not well-known to these
   tools, but may be noticeable to those in research who are unable to
   access colleague's individual sites or new web sites that have not
   yet been screened.  In situations where new sites are required for
   access, they can typically be added after notification by the user or
   proxy log alerts and review.  Home mail account access may be blocked
   in corporate settings to prevent another vector for malware to enter
   as well as for intellectual property to leak out of the network.
   This method remains functional with increased use of encryption and
   may be more effective at preventing malware from entering the
   network.  Web proxy solutions monitor and potentially restrict access
   based on the destination URL or the DNS name.  A complete URL may be
   used in cases where access restrictions vary for content on a
   particular site or for the sites hosted on a particular server.

If you are filtering on URL and there is HTTPS involved, then you are
a MITM, and this is potentially noticeable to end-users. We encounter
this regularly when MITM proxies make mistakes in getting into our
trust anchor store.


Re: 0-rating.
   user.  This feature is impacted if encryption hides the details of
   the content domain from the network.

Well, maybe. Facebook's zero rating, for instance, is IP-based.
https://info.internet.org/en/blog/2015/09/24/enhancing-security-and-privacy-of-free-basics/

S 2.2.2.
The presentation here seems biased given that it does not acknowledge
that one of the reasons that ISPs do traffic class discrimination is
to prioritize favored rather than disfavored traffic, regardless of
user preferences. I don't believe that the IETF has taken a position
for net neutrality, but I'm also pretty sure we don't have consensus
against it.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

   Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy of Internet users is
   of serious concern to both the user and the operator communities.
are of serious concern

   Traditional network management, planning, security operations, and
   performance optimization have been developed in an Internet where a
   large majority of data traffic flows without encryption.  While
you have a plural/singular mismatch here.

   Authentication with IPsec [RFC7619] and there are a number of
   infrastructure use cases such as server to server encryption, where
   this mode is deployed.  While OS is helpful in reducing pervassive
Nit, no comma before "where"

   recommendations from these documents were were built upon for TLS 1.3
   to provide a more inherently secure end-to-end protocol.
"were were"

   to-user content encryption schemes, such as S/MIME and PGP for email
   and encryption (e.g.  Off-the-Record (OTR)) for XMPP are used by
   those interested to protect their data as it crosses intermediary
Not, "e.g.,"

   been impacted by increases in encrypted traffic.  Only methods
   keeping with the goal of balancing network management and PM
   mitigation in [RFC7258] should be considered in solution work
   resulting from this document.
I don't understand what the normative content of this was.

   upgrades before user experience declines.  For example, findings of
   loss and jitter in VoIP traffic can be a predictor of future customer
   dissatisfaction (supported by metadata from the RTP/RTCP protocol )
   [RFC3550], or increases in DNS response time can generally make
   interactive web browsing appear sluggish.  But to detect such
   problems, the application or service stream must first be
   distinguished from others.

This is a little hard to read, but generally this information is not
encrypted for SRTP/SRTCP.

   When using increased encryption, operators lose a source of data that
   may be used to debug user issues.  Because of this, application
   server operators using increased encryption might be called upon more
   frequently to assist with debugging and troubleshooting, and thus may
   want to consider what tools can be put in the hands of their clients
   or network operators.

This is phrased as hypothetical, but is there any actual data to
support this? We have a lot of experience now with encrypted voice and
video as well as Web. Do those providers report any increased level of requests.

   the new flow and would not be able to route it back to the original
   POP.

I'm having a little trouble understanding this paragraph. Why is this
about mobile operators? It seems like it's an issue for anyone who has
a service that might have mobile clients.

   effective at providing data offload when there is a network element
   close to the receiver that has access to see all the content.
This section is also confusing in that it fails to distinguish between proxies
of this type that the user opts into from transparent proxies that just do this
service without the user's consent. Part of the purpose of encryption is to
preclude that.

   created from the intercepting device to the client's destination,
   this is an opt-in strategy for the client.  Changes to TLSv1.3 do not
   impact this more invasive method of interception, where this has the
I don't understand the cite to TLS 1.3 here. None of this is presently affected
by 1.3.

   endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to offer parental
   control.
This section makes it seem like there are no other methods that allow for
parental control, but that's not true. There are parental control mechanisms
which rely on MITM proxies or application interfacing.

   HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this prevents mobile carriers
   from intercepting the traffic and performing an HTTP redirect.  As a
   result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
Yes, stopping traffic redirection is actually one of the major design purposes
of HTTPS.

   to the customer and additional overhead to the mobile network service
   provider.
This section is basically a commercial for this practice. It needs to
acknowledge that it's actually much closer to IETF consensus that it's a bad
practice.

   headers to accomplish the, sometimes considered controversial,
   functions above.
Again, this is precisely the form of attack that HTTPS is intended to prevent.

   perform SSL/TLS decryption are impacted by the increased use of
   encryption that prevents interception.
I don't really understand what this text means. What is "use of encryption that
prevents interception" in the context of tools which already do decryption?

   [DarkMail].  Of course, SPAM filtering will not be possible on
   encrypted content.
This is not strictly correct, as you can still header filter, etc.

   over the Internet.  Options for monitoring will vary with each
   encryption approach described below.  In most cases, solution have
   been identified to provide encryption while ensuring management
Nit: "solutions have"

   allow for multiple end user sessions to share the same TCP
   connection.  This rasises several points of interest with an
   increased use of encryption.  TCP session multiplexing should still
Typos: rasises

   be possible when TLS or TCPcrypt is in use since the TCP header
   information is exposed leaving the 5-tuple accessible.  The use TCP
   session multiplexing of an IP layer encyption, e.g.  IPsec, that only
I'm not sure if this is correct. What precisely do you mean by "TCP
session multiplexing"? A cite would be helpful here.

   center.  HTTP pipelining requires both the client and server to
   participate; visibilty of packets once encrypted will hide the use of
   HTTP pipelining for any monitoring that takes place outside of the
Typo: visibility

   traffic cannot be intercepted, encouraging alternate options such as
   performing these functions at the edge.
I'm not seeing the relevance of this. Who is proposing solutions in which
encrypted traffic cannot be intercepted at the outgoing network edge.

   owing to concealment of critical headers and payloads.  Many forms of
   enterprise performance management may be similarly affected.
Again, this is sort of transparent caching is an anti-pattern, so this document
ought to acknowledge that,

   parts of the address assignment/management protocols, critical for
   SAVI mechanisms, can result in a dysfunction of the SAVI mechanisms.
Does anyone actually deploy SAVI? If not, encryption isn't having much of an
impact.

   network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
   extension, they may not find one.  The SNI Encryption in TLS Through
   Tunneling [I-D.ietf-tls-sni-encryption] draft has been adopted by the
This doesn't really follow. I mean they "may not" but overwhelmingly they will



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : A YANG Module for Network Address Translation (NAT)
        Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
                          Senthil Sivakumar
                          Christian Jacquenet
                          Suresh Vinapamula
                          Qin Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-12.txt
	Pages           : 92
	Date            : 2018-02-07

Abstract:
   For the sake of network automation and the need for programming
   Network Address Translation (NAT) function in particular, a data
   model for configuring and managing the NAT is essential.  This
   document defines a YANG module for the NAT function.

   NAT44, Network Address and Protocol Translation from IPv6 Clients to
   IPv4 Servers (NAT64), Customer-side transLATor (CLAT), Stateless IP/
   ICMP Translation (SIIT), Explicit Address Mappings for Stateless IP/
   ICMP Translation (SIIT EAM), and Destination NAT are covered in this
   document.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   Please update these statements with the RFC number to be assigned to
   this document:

      "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"

      "RFC XXXX: A YANG Module for Network Address Translation (NAT)";

      "reference: RFC XXXX"


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-12
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-12

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-12


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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From: Eliot Lear 
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From: Eliot Lear 
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 draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi EKR,

Regarding phishing:

> S 5.4.
(I think you mean S 5.3, but this equally applies to section 5.5, so...)
> It's pretty odd to talk about phishing without acknowledging that by
> far the largest anti-phishing platform (Safe Browsing) operates in the
> client, not be network interception

It's not odd at all.=C2=A0 Phishing and spam are intimately related, and =
one
can't look at Safe Browsing in a vacuum, because one must take into
account the content has already been filtered before it ever gets to the
browser.=C2=A0 Hint: it's a lot.=C2=A0 According to Talos, the average da=
ily
volume of spam in January was 421 billion messages, of which some
fraction were phish(*).=C2=A0 While there are a number of techniques that=
 do
NOT require access to the body of a message, such as honeypots, there
are others that do.=C2=A0 Just two examples out of many: URLs who themsel=
ves
have bad reputations, and=C2=A0 hash busters whose job it is to ruin the =
day
of a Bayesian filter.

Also, your use of the word "network interception" here is partially
misplaced.=C2=A0 The mail architecture itself relies on intermediaries, a=
nd
it is best practice to use them.=C2=A0 None of this addresses spear phish=
ing,
which is very difficult to spot, but requires forensic analysis to clean
up after.=C2=A0 Again, the intermediaries in the architecture play a key =
role.

Eliot
(*) Different people count differently, but the number is always large.


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From: Benoit Claise 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On 2/8/2018 6:04 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have completely re-reviewed the latest version. First, I want to
> thank you for toning down some of the material that I was concerned
> about.
>
> Unfortunately, the fundamental concern that motivated my DISCUSS
> remains: I do not believe that this document matches the consensus
> of the IETF community.
That's an interesting claim.
If the process has not been followed, this requires facts as opposed to 
"believes".
We should make sure to make a distinction between the IETF community 
views and your own views.

Regards, Benoit


From nobody Thu Feb  8 02:17:25 2018
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>> Unfortunately, the fundamental concern that motivated my DISCUSS
>> remains: I do not believe that this document matches the consensus
>> of the IETF community.
> That's an interesting claim.
> If the process has not been followed, this requires facts as opposed
> to "believes".
> We should make sure to make a distinction between the IETF community
> views and your own views.

1984 7258 7625 ... and dogged comments on this draft; though some of us
have grew a bit weary of the denial game and allowed ourselves to be
shut up.

randy


From nobody Thu Feb  8 05:26:49 2018
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From: Alissa Cooper 
To: "The IESG" 
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: Abstain

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Many thanks for all the effort that has gone in to addressing all the comments
from the last IESG review and from the community. I find this version to be
much improved from the last time the IESG reviewed it.

However, I do not feel that I can support the publication of the document.
While the tone has improved in many places and the introduction does a better
job of contextualizing the document, the document still contains text in
several sections that states service providers' claims about their practices as
facts rather than stating them as claims or presenting the practices in a
neutral way. This was a point raised in my previous DISCUSS (I've included my
previous DISCUSS ballot text below in full for reference). In the previous
review round Warren had invited recommendations for places where the tone or
choice of words could be made more neutral or balanced, and I provided many
detailed suggestions, but a number of those were not adopted. I also realize
that the introduction contains much of the disclaimer text we previously hashed
out to try to address this, but it doesn't contain all of it. So this is still
a major issue for the document, IMO.

The document also still extemporizes about future possible impacts, making it
hard to come away with a neutral view of their treatment, as I noted in my
previous DISCUSS ballot.

I support the DISCUSS position held by Ekr. But given the above I don't think
it will be fruitful for me to continue to engage on the details of this
document, so I'm abstaining.

I've included below some of the areas that I still find problematic, as well as
some nits.

Problematic areas:

= Section 2.1.2 =

(1)
"Network operators are often the first ones called upon to investigate
   application problems"

I still contend that without data to back this up, this claim should not be
made, especially for the enterprise context.

(2)
"Vendors must be aware that in order for operators to better
   troubleshoot and manage networks with increasing amounts of encrypted
   traffic, built-in diagnostics and serviceability must be enhanced to
   provide detailed logging and debugging capabilities that, when
   possible, can reveal cleartext network parameters."

If I try to paraphrase this it sounds like "vendors should build in
capabilities to decrypt encrypted traffic." Was that the intent?

= Section 2.2.4 =

I agree with Christian Huitema's unresolved comments on this section. In the
thread regarding his comments Kathleen said "we don't want to make general
statements that aren't necessarily true" -- IMO that is what the middle three
paragraphs in this section are doing. At a minimum, I think the
characterizations about the effects of performance-enhancing proxies needs to
be qualified by saying "some operators find that ..." rather than stating their
effects as fact.

= Section 2.2.7 =

"There is work in progress to specify protocols that permit Service
   Function Chaining (SFC)."

I don't think it makes sense to have this forward-looking statement when
Section 1 states that "This document describes practices currently used by
network operators to manage, operate, and secure their networks." I think it
makes sense to focus this section on how existing SFC deployments have stopped
functioning because of increased use of encrypted traffic, but it seems unfair
to claim that some future, yet-to-deployed functionality will be broken.

= Section 2.3.2 =

"As a
   result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
   which is a far less optimal customer experience because the blocking
   reason must be conveyed by some other means."

This could easily be read to imply that sending requests in cleartext is
optimal.

Overall, the use of the words "usual," "optimal," and "often" in this section
imply a level of generality that is unwarranted I think.

= Section 5.6 =

The implications for SAVI seem speculative unless you can point to SAVI
deployments that have been impacted by increased use of encryption.

Nits:

= Abstract =

s/Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy of Internet users is
   of serious concern/Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy of
   Internet users are of serious concern/

= Section 2.1.2 =

(1)
"Further, the performance of some services can be more efficiently
   managed and repaired when information on user transactions is
   available to the service provider.  It may be possible to continue
   such monitoring activities without clear text access to the
   application layers of interest ..."

It's not clear what "such monitoring" refers to, since the previous sentence is
about performance management and service repair.

(2)
Is "User/Service Key Quality Indicators" a term of art? It seems weird to be
capitalized.

= Section 2.2.3 =

This section seems like it was left in the document by mistake.

= Section 2.3 =

"As previously stated, the intent of this document is to
   document existing practices, the development of IETF protocols
   follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804]."

Is that comma supposed to be a period? I'm not following the grammar here.

= Section 2.3.1 =

s/However, the lack of ability to efficiently manage
   endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to offer parental
   control./However, the lack of ability to efficiently manage
   endpoints as a service reduces network service providers' ability to offer
   parental control./

= Section 4.1.2 =

It seems like a single reference to RFC 8250 would suffice.

= Section 7.4 =

What is a trusted transit proxy?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Previous DISCUSS ballot text:

I have cleared my original DISCUSS point from my earlier review -- I get what
the text is saying now, although I still think the "lose the option" language
implies some entitlement to the option in the first place, which seems
inappropriate.

But given the reviews from Martin Thomson and Christian Huitema, it's not clear
to me that this document represents the consensus view of the IETF community.
Kathleen's response to Martin reinforces the point that we were discussing in
the first ballot cycle, which is that this document is written for and
represents operators, not the broader array of Internet interests. Yet the
suggestion to state that fact up front in the document was not adopted.

Having had some more time to review this document than I had in the previous
ballot cycle, I also am finding myself in agreement with significant portions
of the reviews from Martin and Christian. Reading their reviews helped
crystallize a lot of the difficulty I had in parsing this document the first
time around.

I understand the rationale that led to this document being written and I think
there is a version of this document that could be written that would achieve
the original goals while giving the subject matter a readable, neutral
treatment. Such a version would be a useful contribution. But I don't think
this document achieves that. In particular, there are four things that I think
it would need to do to achieve that:

1. State the analysis in a neutral way. As I had mentioned in one of the email
threads for the previous ballot cycle, I believe this document could be written
in a neutral way -- e.g., “Service providers currently do X. It is implemented
using Y mechanism. Encryption at Z layer breaks current implementations.” --
but it is not. Instead it characterizes many of the practices described as
"optimizations" or "features" or "enrichment" and states service providers'
claims about what these practices accomplish (e.g., "maximize QOE") as facts
rather than stating them as the reasons given by service providers for why they
engage in the practices. This is why in the previous round I suggested the
disclaimer at the top of the document to say that the document is giving a view
from service providers; that apparently didn't go anywhere, so the other option
is to describe each technique neutrally, or explain with each technique that
the characterization of the benefits is from the view of the operator. Martin's
comments about being clear about who is benefitting point this out as well.

2. Limit the discussion to techniques presently being affected and those
effects. There is a bunch of extemporizing about future possible impacts (e.g.,
in Sec. 2.7, 4.1.2, 4.1.3.1, 5.7, 7, 8). It's very hard to characterize future
implications, who will bear the "cost" for what, whether increases in user
complaints to various parties are "worth it," etc., in a way that is perceived
as neutral by all affected parties. Better not to make predictions if the goal
is to give a neutral treatment of network functions being impacted today.

3. Acknowledge the controversy. Many of the practices described in this
document are controversial, and have been for a long time. There is nothing
wrong with that. I agree with Christian that it would be better to state an
understanding of that head-on rather than leave it to the reader to decide
whether any particular characterization of something described implies an
endorsement of it. This has been done before, even in potentially controversial
documents that this document references, e.g. RFC 3135.

4. Structure the document in a way that is consistent and logical with minimal
repetition. It seems like there are multiple ways that this could be done.
Organizing based on use case (per Christian) and then discussing techniques
used within each use case is one way; organizing based on technique while
mentioning the goals for which each technique is employed is another. At
present the document is jumble of these.



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Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: Yes

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for this important OPS/SEC document, which has improved lately.

I do NOT read this document as: encryption makes live harder for operators, so
we should not do encryption. I read this document as: encryption makes live
harder for operators and we should find different ways to manage networks, if
possible. The point is not to do a value judgment on the "management" function
(ex: HTTP header insertion)Thanks for this improved doc. For me, the key
document aspects are:

   The goal is to help inform future protocol development to
   ensure that operational impact is part of the conversation.  Perhaps,
   new methods could be developed to accomplish some of the goals of
   current practices despite changes in the extent to which cleartext
   will be available to network operators (including methods for network
   endpoints where applicable).

   ...

   This document
   lists a collection of functions currently employed by network
   operators that may be impacted by the shift to increased use of
   encryption.  This draft does not attempt to specify responses or
   solutions to these impacts, but rather documents the current state.



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To: Meral Shirazipour 
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Meral, thanks for your review. Authors, thanks for your response. I have =
entered an Abstain ballot on this document based on my own re-review.

Alissa

> On Jan 26, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Meral Shirazipour =
 wrote:
>=20
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area =
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the =
IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your document =
shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
> =20
> For more information, please see the FAQ at =
>.
> =20
> Document: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-15
> Reviewer: Meral Shirazipour
> Review Date: 2018-01-26
> IETF LC End Date: 2017-12-04
> IESG Telechat date: 2018-02-08
> =20
> Summary: This draft is ready to be published as Informational  RFC .
> =20
> Major issues:
> Minor issues:
> Nits/editorial comments:
> -few occurrences: "pervassive"--->"pervasive"
> -[Page 6], Sec 1.1, "were were built "---->"were built "
> -[Page 12] , "scaleability"--->"scalability" x2
> -[Page 16] , "unaccessible"--->"inaccessible"
> -[Page 29] ,"depening"--->"depending", "permited"--->"permitted "
> -[Page 31], "rasises"---->"raises", "encyption"---->"encryption", =
"visibilty"--->"visibility"
> =20
> Best Regards,
> Meral
> ---
> Meral Shirazipour
> Ericsson Research
> www.ericsson.com =
_______________________________________________
> Gen-art mailing list
> Gen-art@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art =


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Meral, thanks for your review. Authors, =
thanks for your response. I have entered an Abstain ballot on this =
document based on my own re-review.

Alissa

On =
Jan 26, 2018, at 8:32 PM, Meral Shirazipour <meral.shirazipour@ericsson.com> wrote:

I am the assigned Gen-ART =
reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews =
all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. =
Please wait for direction from your document shepherd or AD before =
posting a new version of the draft.
 
For more information, please see the =
FAQ at <http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/area/gen/trac/wiki/GenArtfaq>=
.
 
Document: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-15
Reviewer: =
Meral Shirazipour
Review Date: 2018-01-26
IETF LC End Date: 2017-12-04
IESG =
Telechat date: 2018-02-08
 
Summary: This draft is ready to be published as =
Informational  RFC .
 
Major issues:
Minor issues:
Nits/editorial comments:
-few occurrences: =
"pervassive"--->"pervasive"
-[Page 6], Sec 1.1, "were were built =
"---->"were built "
-[Page 12] , "scaleability"--->"scalability" x2
-[Page =
16] , "unaccessible"--->"inaccessible"
-[Page 29] =
,"depening"--->"depending", "permited"--->"permitted "
-[Page 31], "rasises"---->"raises", =
"encyption"---->"encryption", "visibilty"--->"visibility"
 
Best Regards,
Meral
---
Meral =
Shirazipour
Ericsson Research
www.ericsson.com
_______________________________________________
Gen-art mailing =
list
Gen-art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art

=

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Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This document is not perfect, but I found it to be generally useful. This
version is much improved.

When you talk about logging, maybe mentioning "protocol trace logging" or "PDU
logging" as a useful tool for troubleshooting that can be provided by both
client and server endpoints?

DMARC (RFC 7489) should probably be mentioned in Section 5.1 where you mention
ARF.



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Without any judgement, this is an informational document, so it does not =
necessarily need to have IETF consensus for publication.

Mirja



> Am 08.02.2018 um 11:17 schrieb Randy Bush :
>=20
>>> Unfortunately, the fundamental concern that motivated my DISCUSS
>>> remains: I do not believe that this document matches the consensus
>>> of the IETF community.
>> That's an interesting claim.
>> If the process has not been followed, this requires facts as opposed
>> to "believes".
>> We should make sure to make a distinction between the IETF community
>> views and your own views.
>=20
> 1984 7258 7625 ... and dogged comments on this draft; though some of =
us
> have grew a bit weary of the denial game and allowed ourselves to be
> shut up.
>=20
> randy
>=20


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:16:34 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Alexey Melnikov 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Alexey Melnikov  wrote:
> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This document is not perfect, but I found it to be generally useful. This
> version is much improved.
>
> When you talk about logging, maybe mentioning "protocol trace logging" or "PDU
> logging" as a useful tool for troubleshooting that can be provided by both
> client and server endpoints?
>
> DMARC (RFC 7489) should probably be mentioned in Section 5.1 where you mention
> ARF.
>

Thanks for your helpful comments, Alexey.  We will make these updates
in a revision after the telechat.
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: "M. Ranganathan" 
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:25:26 -0500
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To: opsawg@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ccad873ff840564b5de9a"
Archived-At: 
Subject: [OPSAWG] Minor change in ietf-access-control-list@2018-02-02.yang
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--001a113ccad873ff840564b5de9a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

In order to compile the published YANG model with OpenDaylight Yangtools I
had to make the following change ( diff published file vs. changed file is
below ):

583c583
<                 path "../../../../../../acl/name";
---
>                 path "/access-lists/acl/name";
597c597
<                   path "../../../../../../../acl/aces/ace/name";
---
>                   path "/access-lists/acl/aces/ace/name";


I am not sure (don't have enough YANG experience) to know if the error is
with Yangtools or with the published YANG model but I thought I'd send this
information to the list just in case.

Thank you for your attention.

Regards,

Ranga


-- 
M. Ranganathan

--001a113ccad873ff840564b5de9a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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In order to compile the published YANG model with OpenDayl=
ight Yangtools I had to make the following change ( diff published file vs.=
 changed file is below ):

583c583
<=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 path "../../../../../../acl/name";
---
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 path "/access-lists/acl/name";
597c597
<=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 path "../../../../../../../acl/aces/ace/name&=
quot;;
---
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 path "/access-l=
ists/acl/aces/ace/name";


I am not sure (don'=
t have enough YANG experience) to know if the error is with Yangtools or wi=
th the published YANG model but I thought I'd send this information to =
the list just in case.

Thank you for your attention.
<=
br>
Regards,

Ranga
=


-- 
M. Ranganathan




--001a113ccad873ff840564b5de9a--


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Subject: [OPSAWG] Datatracker State Update Notice: 
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IESG state changed:

New State: IESG Evaluation::AD Followup

(The previous state was IESG Evaluation)


Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/


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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On 2/8/18 5:01 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
> Without any judgement, this is an informational document, so it does
> not necessarily need to have IETF consensus for publication.

Generally I'm in favor of being pretty relaxed about informational
documents that describe a real thing in the world, but for better
or worse this document is taking the form of a position statement
and I think needs to reflect that position more accurately.  The
use of the word "consensus" here set my teeth on edge a bit as
we've never had a consensus call specifically on what EKR is
asserting as consensus.  That said, as Randy points out we've got
consensus on a few other documents about encryption and privacy
and I do think that EKR is correct about the overall sense of the
IETF.  Consensus-is-not-voting but it's my very strong impression
that the position being argued in this draft is a minority viewpoint
and I don't think it should be published as-is.

Melinda


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To: Melinda Shore , opsawg@ietf.org
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From: Eliot Lear 
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:59:20 +0100
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: Eliot Lear 
To: Melinda Shore , opsawg@ietf.org
Message-ID: <033a605c-50a6-af5a-5947-e6bc9edb22dc@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on
 draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On 08.02.18 21:53, Melinda Shore wrote:
> On 2/8/18 5:01 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) wrote:
>> Without any judgement, this is an informational document, so it does
>> not necessarily need to have IETF consensus for publication.
> Generally I'm in favor of being pretty relaxed about informational
> documents that describe a real thing in the world, but for better
> or worse this document is taking the form of a position statement
> and I think needs to reflect that position more accurately.

That, I think. is the issue.=C2=A0 This *shouldn't* be a position stateme=
nt.=C2=A0
I think it would be good if that were explicit.=C2=A0 It's meant more of =
a
point of view about some of the problems some folk are facing.

Eliot



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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" 
To: Randy Bush 
CC: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" , Eric Rescorla , The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Randy Bush 
Cc: Eric Rescorla , The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
References: <151806627444.17073.14252972331367641645.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6dc5559c-0185-be41-0809-ab237680ef01@cisco.com>  <96E32F00-DD9A-41F0-913B-5756BC5A4893@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Let me ask a different version of Carlos (and maybe Randy's) point.

If the IETF as a community objected to the content of this draft, 
presumably there would ahve been significant dissent during the IETF 
last call.
It looked to me like the consensus in support of this was rough but clear.

More importantly, if you think the demonstrated consensus was not in 
support of the document, that is a specific process problem.
If you are saying that in spite of the demonstrated rough consensus, you 
still say that this violates your understanding of the IETF agreement, 
I do not understand how, at this stage of the process, that is your call 
to make?
As Carlos quotes, the existing documents make it clear that their must 
be judgment calls about these issues.
And such a personal consensus interpretation seems even less grounded 
for an informational document aimed, as the abstract states at:

    discusses current security and network operations and management
    practices that may be impacted by the shift to increased use of
    encryption to help guide protocol development in support of
    manageable, secure networks.

If you feel the document does not match its abstract, that is a VERY 
different objection than claiming that the document violates your 
personal take (not demonstrated during IETF last call) on the IETF rough 
consensus.

Yours,
Joel

On 2/8/18 9:08 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 8, 2018, at 5:17 AM, Randy Bush  wrote:
>>
>>>> Unfortunately, the fundamental concern that motivated my DISCUSS
>>>> remains: I do not believe that this document matches the consensus
>>>> of the IETF community.
>>> That's an interesting claim.
>>> If the process has not been followed, this requires facts as opposed
>>> to "believes".
>>> We should make sure to make a distinction between the IETF community
>>> views and your own views.
> 
> Eric: I’m also interested in understanding your claim regarding consensus — can you please expand?
> 
>>
>> 1984 7258
> 
> "  Making
>     networks unmanageable to mitigate PM is not an acceptable outcome,
>     but ignoring PM would go against the consensus documented here.  An
>     appropriate balance will emerge over time as real instances of this
>     tension are considered.”
> 
>> 7625 ... and dogged comments on this draft; though some of us
>> have grew a bit weary of the denial game and allowed ourselves to be
>> shut up.
> 
> Or a DDoS against the ideas on this document?
> 
>>
>> randy
>>
> 
> —
> Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com
> 
> “Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make myself sound more photosynthesis.”
> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> OPSAWG mailing list
>> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> 


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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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> If the IETF as a community objected to the content of this draft,
> presumably there would ahve been significant dissent during the IETF
> last call.

my memory is that i commented once, supporting christian's eloquence
during ietf last call.  i commented yesterday supporting ekr's
statement.  for those two comments, i have been called a ddos; an ad
hominem shot at the messenger eh?

> It looked to me like the consensus in support of this was rough but
> clear.

not your or my call.

and now in my third ddos on the subject, i think melinda said it well;
this seems to purport to be an ietf position as opposed to an opinion.
as an opinion, it is interesting and useful to document.  as an ietf
position, imiho we have some kilometers to go.

randy


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 09:22:07 -0500
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To: Adam Roach 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Adam,

Thanks for the additional comments.  We'll discuss in line and make
updates as appropriate.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Roach  wrote:
> Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for all the work that has gone into this document. The framing and=
 tone
> is much improved over -10, and the reorganization of section 7 into the r=
est
> of the document helps a lot. I do have a handful of comments. In particul=
ar,
> I think the omission in section 2.3.4 is very important; however, I
> wanted to clear my discuss and trust the sponsoring AD to do the right th=
ing
> here rather than re-issuing a different discuss position.

Thank you and we'll do our best to address comments.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A72.1.2 -- I am surprised that there is so much discussion of fields =
that are
> not generally encrypted in practice (e.g., RTP headers, TCP headers). It =
may
> be worth distinguishing between session-layer, transport-layer and
> network-layer security.
>
> (I think I mentioned this in my initial review, and saw neither a respons=
e nor a
> document change in reaction to it.)

As a result of your comments and other similar ones, the introduction
text was updated to explain that this document is not limited to TLS
and that other end to end encryption protocols are considered in this
draft.  The IPsec OS implementations (NULL authentication) resulting
from RFC7258 decisions is one example of an increase in encryption
deployment and in this case limiting visibility to a 2-tuple.
Breaking down what is used in current operations is a way to
understand that impact, hence discussions on visibility used from
5-tuples is discussed in the draft.  This section talks about the
actual headers used in monitoring, which is at a more detailed level
than stating session, transport, or network layer.  So we assumed
making this additions satisfied your comment at a more detailed level.
Would you like to see the layer in addition to the header accessed or
an explanation in one section on what is in each layer?  I'd just like
to understand what you are looking for in this comment to make the
document read more clearly.

In the last revision, we tried to add in (where it made sense) if a
2-tuple or 5-tuple was enough throughout the document, so that's
pretty much the same thing, but I thought was a bit more precise.  Or
are you just asking for a discussion within this section in
particular?  Thanks!

>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A72.2.3 -- This section reads like a set of unfinished "notes to self=
" for the
> authors' later use. Minimally, I would suggest restructuring the sentence
> fragments in this section into sentences. I will also note that section 2
> indicates that the following sections will discuss both (a) purpose of th=
e
> technique, and (b) fields used to achieve this purpose. This section appe=
ars
> to lack the latter.
>

We'll fix the sentences, the section looks bad and I'm sorry we
somehow didn't catch that. We've been hesitant to make additional
changes over what's been requested by reviewers/ADs as it seems to
invite more comments, so that may be part of why it wasn't fixed
previously.

How about the following:
"For User Plane Congestion Management (3GPP UPCON) the ability to
understand content and manage networks during periods of congestion is
th efocus of this work item. Mitigating techniques such as deferred
download, off-peak acceleration, and outbound roamers are a few
examples of the areas explored in the associated 3GPP documents
describing the issues, data utilized in managing congestion, and
policy recommendations."

Unfortunately, the document relied on contributions and if they didn't
come in, we weren't able to make assumptions of what was used as
editors.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A72.2.5:
>
>>   For example, network caching of popular content at a
>>   location close to the requesting user can improve delivery efficiency
>>   (both in terms of lower request response times and reduced use of
>>   International Internet links when content is remotely located), and
>>   authorized parties acting on their behalf use DPI in combination with
>>   content distribution networks to determine if they can intervene
>>   effectively.  Caching was first supported in [RFC1945] and continued
>>   in the recent update of "Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP/1.1):
>>   Caching" in [RFC7234].
>
> The transition from the general case of caching to the specific case of H=
TTP
> proxy caching (and the subsequent change back to the general case) seems
> rather abrupt. Consider splitting the HTTP proxy caching out into a separ=
ate
> paragraph.

That makes sense, thanks.  Suggestion implemented.


>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A72.2.5:
>
>>   The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/
>>   Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilitate
>>   delivering same stream to different users, using either unicast or
>>   multicast depending on channel conditions to the user.
>
> This passage also reads like outline notes rather than a finished documen=
t.

How about the following:
The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS)
utilizes trusted edge proxies to facilitate delivering the same stream
to different users, using either unicast or multicast depending on
channel conditions to the user.

Thanks for catching that!
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A72.2.5:
>
>>   preserving end-to-end security: AMT, for instance, allows CDNs to
>
> Please expand "AMT".

Done, thanks!
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A72.2.7:
>
>>    A goal is protecting end-user
>>    data -- but at the same time not making the network inoperable or
>>    unmanageable.
>
> I fear this sentence falls back to the hyperbolic tone that plagued versi=
on
> -10 of this document. I suggest something more along the lines of "...not
> forcing changes to the way networks have historically been operated and
> managed" or something similar.

I'd like Al to weigh in one this change from an operator perspective.
To me, this reads like both sides are being weighed equally.  He may
have another suggestion that works to help with the tone you are
looking for, but also acks the impact to operators to further the
discussion.

>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A72.3.2:
>
>>   The customer may need
>>   call customer care to find out the reason, both an inconvenience
>>   to the customer and additional overhead to the mobile network service
>>   provider.
>
> I believe this is false. Please remove this assertion or support it with =
a
> citation.
>
> To my knowledge, standard operating procedure for mobile networks (based =
on my
> personal experience on two different post-paid US carriers and probably h=
alf a
> dozen pre-paid non-US carriers) is that users are sent an SMS message
> explaining the situation. I think the statement above overstates the
> inconvenience to both users and operators, and consequently runs the risk=
 of
> causing protocol designers to evaluate the impact incorrectly.

I'll wait for Al to weigh in since he works at a major provider,
especially since this just says "may".  I wouldn't want to weigh in
with my anecdotal experience as an end user.  I have had to call my
provider at times and it is an inconvenience to say the least!

>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A72.3.4:
>
>>   Third parties use
>>   the inserted information for analytics, customization, advertising,
>>   to bill the customer, or to selectively allow or block content.
>
> This is much improved over the previous formulation, but it leaves out a =
simple
> factual statement that is highly relevant when designers are evaluating t=
he
> impact of encryption on this behavior. In fact, I would argue that it lea=
ves
> out the *most* notable use of these headers: cross-site user tracking. I
> suggest amending the list to something like:
>
>     Third parties use the inserted information for analytics, customizati=
on,
>     advertising, cross-site tracking of users, to bill the customer, or t=
o
>     selectively allow or block content.

Thanks, that's a fair addition.  Done!
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>
> =C2=A73.3:
>
>>   encryption approach described below.  In most cases, solution have
>>   been identified to provide encryption while ensuring management
>
> Nit: "...solutions have..."
>
Thanks, updated!

>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
> =C2=A73.2.2 and =C2=A75.1:
>
> Nit: s/SPAM/spam/g
>
Done, thanks.

>

Thanks for helping to improve the document.

--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:56:33 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Deborah Brungard 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Deborah Brungard's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Deborah,

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Deborah Brungard  wrote:
> Deborah Brungard has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for handling my other comments, the abstract and intro for setting
> context are much improved. I found some sections still though need some
> neutrality/tweaking, others have already provided detailed comments.
>
> For me, section 8 as the "way forward" is especially weak and confusing. As the
> last section of a very detailed, lengthy document, a more concise,
> stronger summary is needed on the purpose of the document.

Great point, I moved some of the examples into section 1.2 and one is
overlapping, so that has been deleted.  I also noticed your prior
request to include a sentence on operators support of encryption
(which we've heard from many operators) was removed from the
introductory text when other text replacements were provided.  I think
it makes sense to add it back into section 8 as that will also help
the tone of the document so readers understand there is wide support
for encryption and this document seeks to find ways to increase
adoption of strong session encryption.

How about the following for Section 8:


As stated in RFC7258, "an appropriate balance (between network
management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time as real instances
of this tension are considered."  This document is intended as a first
step for engineers and other innovators to work toward solving network
and security management problems with protocol designers and
application developers in new ways rather than preventing the use of
encryption. Numerous operators made it clear in their response to this
document that they fully support strong encryption and providing
privacy for end users, this is a common goal.  By having the
discussions on network and security management practices with
application developers and protocol designers, each side of the debate
can understand each others goals and work toward alternate solutions.
A goal of this document is to increase adoption of strong session
encryption as a result of work spurred on by documenting the current
practices of operators resulting in new work items tackling only the
IETF supported use cases faced by operators.

>
> "Changes to improve encryption or to deploy OS methods have little
>    impact on the detection of malicious actors; they already have access
>    to strong encryption."

I moved this text as a second paragraph to the introduction in section
5 and now reads as follows:

Changes to improve encryption or to deploy OS methods have little
impact on the detection of malicious actors. Malicious actors have had
access to strong encryption for quite some time.  Incident responders,
in many cases, have developed techniques to locate malicious traffic
within encrypted sessions.  The following section will note some
examples where detection and mitigation of such traffic has been
successful.

>
> And the last two sentences cast a foreboding outlook:
> "..but make passive monitoring broadly cost
>    prohibitive.  This is meant to restrict monitoring to sessions where
>    there is reason to have suspicion."

I see what you are saying and I have trimmed section 8 to the single
paragraph listed above, edits are welcome.

Thank you for your review and assistance to improve the document.

>
> The End for this 40-page story?
>
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Fri Feb  9 09:27:21 2018
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From: Joel Halpern 
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
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Reviewer: Joel Halpern
Review result: Not Ready

This is an early gen-art review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-04.

The document is clear about what it is trying to do, and readable.  It is not
clear about how it expects this to actually work.

However, I find the underlying concept confusing.
1) BGP Communities may sometimes represent subsets of traffic.  But usually
they represent tagging intended to influence routing which is only indirectly
related to meaningful subsets of traffic for TE purposes.  One may be able to
make an argument that this could better enable monitoring the effects of some
BGP communities.  But the draft does not make that argument. 2) It is unclear
what this actually expects the router to do in generating this information. 
Reading between the lines, it seems that what is desired is for the router
control process to go through the IPFIX collected information before it is
exported, and add BGP community tags to the export information.  (Generating
such information directly from the forwarding plane would place significant
load on the forwarding representation and processing, and on the control logic
to generate FIB information.)  Given that off-line BGP information collection
is a common practice, and that such information is common across the AS, it
would actually seem simpler to perform such processing and aggregation offline
rather than in the router.

If the IDR working group has not been consulted about this, I would strongly
recommend working with them as to whether this is actually useful information
to collect, and how and where to collect it. If the IDR working group does not
consider important to work on this, then that gives you useful information in
and of itself.



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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 14:18:46 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Ben Campbell 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Ben,

Thanks again for the comments, responses and proposals are inline.

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:40 AM, Ben Campbell  wrote:
> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is a considerably better document than the previous versions I have
> reviewed. Thanks for all that work. But of course, I still have some comments
> :-)
>
> Substantive Comments:
>
> -2.2.2, 2nd paragraph: "... for example, many
>    forms of communications (from isochronous/real-time to bulk/elastic
>    file transfer) will take place over HTTP port 80 or port 443, so only
>    the messages and higher-layer data will make application
>    differentiation possible."
>
> I'm confused about the use of port 443 in that sentence; presumably traffic to
> 443 will be encrypted and not allow differentiation using higher-layer data.

TLS 1.2 does leave data exposed for differentiation, SNI for example.
TLS 1.3 leaves some, but there will be options to encrypt SNI at some
point in the future.  The response to ALPN will be returned in
encrypted extensions in TLS 1.3.  These are just the examples that
come readily to mind and are included in the document.

Do you think additional text is needed in this section around the port
443 example or is this covered enough later in the document?


>
> -2.2.4: This section lacks a discussion of the impact of encryption.

Good point.  I added one sentence at the edn of the second to last
paragraph and modified the last paragraph as follows.  Let me know if
this looks good or you would like to see changes.

   If impacted by encryption, performance enhancing proxies could make
use of routing
   overlay protocols to accomplish the same task, but this results in
additional overhead.

   An application-type-aware network edge (middlebox) can further
control pacing, limit
   simultaneous HD videos, or prioritize active videos against new videos, etc.
   Services at this more granular level are limited with the use of
encryption.

>
> -2.2.5, last paragraph: I understand that techniques that require endpoint
> cooperation might be out of scope, but the tone of this paragraph makes it
> sound like requiring endpoint cooperation is a negative. Is that the intent?

Good catch, no that was not the intent and is in conflict with the
following sentence.  How about the following modification:

    Alternate approaches are in the early phase of being explored to
allow caching of
    encrypted content.  These solutions require cooperation from
content owners and
    fall outside the scope of what is covered in this document.
Content delegation
    allows for replication with possible benefits, but any form of
delegation has the
    potential to affect the expectation of client-server confidentiality.

>
> -2.3, section title: The title is only partially evocative of the section
> content. I suggest adding "content filtering".

Done, thanks for the suggestion.  We were hesitant to make any changes
to this section once Mirja was happy, so these suggestions are very
helpful.

>
> -2.3.1: I think it might be worth mentioning that an "intercepting certificate"
> requires endpoints to be configured to trust that certificate. (I assume we are
> not talking about the more unsavory practice of certificates that misrepresent
> their subjects.

OK, I read this as being covered, but added the following as it must
not be clear enough to others if you raised this point (thanks for
doing so):

     Content filtering via a proxy can also utilize an intercepting
certificate where
     the client's session is terminated at the proxy enabling for
cleartext inspection
     of the traffic. A new session is created from the intercepting
device to the
     client's destination, this is an opt-in strategy for the client,
where the endpoint
     is configured to trust the intercepting certificate. Changes to
TLSv1.3 do not
     impact this more invasive method of interception, where this has
the potential
     to expose every HTTPS session to an active man in the middle (MitM).

>
> -2.3.4 I concur with Adam that this section should explicitly mention
> "cross-site user tracking" as one of the common motivations for header
> insertion/enrichment. I think it should also include a mention of RFC 8165.

Adam's request has already been addressed by adding that text.  How
abotu the following paragrpah to address the addition of an 8165
reference and for it to make sense in context of the document:

    Guidance from the Internet Architecture Board has been provided in RFC8165
    on Design Considerations for Metadata Insertion.  The guidance asserts that
    designs that share metadata only by explicit actions at the host
are preferable
    to designs in which middleboxes insert metadata.  Alternate notification
    methods that follow this and other guidance would be helpful to
mobile carriers.

>
> -5.2: This section doesn't seem to include discussion of the impact of
> encryption.

I added the following to address your comment, thank you.

The impact of encryption can be understood from their documented use
cases I-D.ietf-dots-use-cases.


>
> Editorial and nits:
>
> -IDNits finds a number of unused references, and a few other reference issues.
> Please check.

Will do, thanks.
>
> - Abstract: 2nd sentence is hard to parse, and ends with a comma splice.

Fixed.
>
> - 1, 2nd paragraph: " The following informational
>    documents consider the end to end (e2e) architectural principle, a
>    guiding principle for the development of Internet protocols [RFC2775]
>    [RFC3724] [RFC7754]."
>
> Is the comma correct? It currently reads along the lines of "The documents
> consider the e2e principle, and we think that it is a guiding principle...",
> but I think you might mean "The documents consider the e2e to be a guiding
> principle..."

Fixed.
>
> -1, 3rd paragraph: "... (including methods for network
>    endpoints where applicable)..."
> Should that say "methods that rely on network endpoints"?

Fixed, thanks.
>
> -2.1.1: Please expand "CAIDA"
Done, thanks.

>
> -2.1.1: Paragraph starting with "
>    When using increased encryption, operators lose a source of data that
>    may be used to debug user issues."
> I don't think the operators are the ones using the encreased encryption in that
> sentence. Perhaps "When endpoints use increased encryption..." or even (When
> increased encryption is used..."

Good catch!  I implemented the latter suggestion in case the
encryption is from a gateway device (IPsec tunnel mode, for example).

>
> -2.1.3, 2nd paragraph: "The ability to examine layers and payloads
>    above transport provides a new range of filtering opportunities at
>    each layer in the clear. "
> Should "new range" be "increased range"?

That makes sense, updated.
>
> -2.1.3, third paragraph: The last sentence seems out of place. Is the point of
> the paragraph to point out that the use of these monitoring techniques for DoS
> mitigation can't be distinguished from the use of them for privacy violation?

Fixing, thanks, this wasn't clear!  I deleted the sentence on DDoS
mitigation as I believe the point is made in the two paragraphs above.
This paragraph was intended to show the reasons for encryption.  I
joined the following paragraph into this one as it made sense once
that sentence had been removed.

>
> -2.2.1: Please expand "QUIC" and add a citation.

Citation added, thanks!  I did it on first use in the introduction and
added one for TCPcrypt too.

>
> -2.2.3, last sentence: Sentence fragment.

Good catch,  I edited as follows:
    Mitigating techniques such as deferred download, off-peak acceleration,
    and outbound roamers are a few examples of the areas explored in the
    associated 3GPP documents.  The documents describe the issues, the
    data utilized in managing congestion, and make policy recommendations.
>
> -2.2.4, first sentence: Comma splice.
Fixed.
>
> -2.2.5, first paragraph: " Encryption of packet contents at a given
>    protocol layer usually makes DPI processing of that layer and higher
>    layers impossible. "
>
> This sentence seems misplaced; the section is not about DPI.

Hmm, I read this as DPI being used in these functions, hence the
impact of encryption.  I'm wondering if reading the first sentence
again helps:

   The features and efficiency of some Internet services can be augmented
   through analysis of user flows and the applications they provide.

Or if I am missing something.  If so, please let me know!

>
> -- same paragraph: I don't understand the point(s) of the last two sentences.
>
> -2.2.5, third paragraph: "The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/
>    Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilitate
>    delivering same stream to different users, using either unicast or
>    multicast depending on channel conditions to the user. "
>
> I can't parse that sentence.

Yes, Adam pointed this out as well and it has been adjusted as follows:

    The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS)
    utilizes trusted edge proxies to facilitate delivering the same stream to
    different users, using either unicast or multicast depending on channel
    conditions to the user.

Please let us know if that doesn't clear it up for you.

>
> -2.3.3: Please make the "SHOULD" lower case. Since this document does not use
> RFC 2119/8174 keywords, a capitalized SHOULD should not appear outside of a
> literal quote.

Done, thanks for catching that!
>
> -3: "Businesses understanding the
>    threats of monitoring in hosted environments only increased that
>    pressure to provide more secure access and session encryption"
>
> Why "only"? That seems to suggest one would expect some different result.

Removed, thanks.

>
> -3.1.2: This section is about Hosting SPs, but the last two paragraphs seem to
> be about ASPs. While I realize those may sometimes be the same organization,
> they are architecturally distinct.

I changed the section heading for 3 to include application service
providers as the document doesn't have another place for that content.
I agree with the distinction you are making, let me know if this is an
okay fix.

>
> -3.2.2: "STARTTLS ought have zero effect..."
> "Ought to have zero effect" or "has little effect"?  (If the former, it's safe
> to say "should" since this draft does not use RFC 2119 keywords.)

This wording came from Stephen in his original AD review, so we stuck with it.
Ought to has been pretty common practice in RFCs, but I guess we used
to see this more at the beginning of my term as an AD.  I'll add the
to and if anyone else wants it changed, it's not a big deal.

>
> -3.2.2, last paragraph: Should "SPAM filtering" be "content-based SPAM
> filtering"?
>
Fixed, thanks.


> -4.2: What does it mean for tools to "use" keywords? Does this mean "search
> for" or "monitor for" keywords?

Monitor for.  Fixed, thanks!
>
> -5.4: This seems to say that "Detection and Mitigations" involves thousands of
> hosts, etc. I think the point is that the botnets themselves may involve
> thousands of hosts..."

Fixed, thanks!
>
> -7 and subsections: It looks like the editing of this section is not finished;
> several sections indicate they are to be deleted.

Yes, these were left for editing tracking purposes and diff
comparisons.  It should be safe to remove them now.
>
> -7.4: Please describe what you mean by "transit proxies".

It's a proxy used in transit as opposed to a proxy on the edge of a
network, "edge proxy".  Seems to be a common term in a google search,
but I'll clarify the text.  Thanks.

>
> I can't parse item 4. The entire section could use proofreading for missing
> articles.

I did a little work and may do another sweep of it.  Thanks.

>
> -12: Are there really no normative references? The definition of a "normative
> reference" is any reference needed to fully implement or _understand_ the
> document. This is true for both informational and standards-track documents. Do
> you think a reader can fully understand this document if they ignore every
> reference?  (I'm willing to accept that the answer might be "yes" given the
> nature of this draft--but that situation is rare in practice.)

We'll think about this a bit more, thanks.
>
>

Thanks for helping to improve the document!

-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" 
To: Kathleen Moriarty , Adam Roach 
CC: The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "Warren Kumari" , Paul Hoffman , "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" 
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> On Feb 9, 2018, at 10:21, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)  wrote:
> 
> If you are notified by SMS, what happens next?
> Does the SMS suggest that you call customer care to resolve the issue
> (which might be less efficient than accessing your account on the web,
> and authorizing additional Data Usage) ?

No, you access your account on the web.


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From nobody Fri Feb  9 12:44:57 2018
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:44:52 -0800
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Subject: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification - draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-18.txt
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A new version (-18) has been submitted for draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-18.txt


The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/

Diff from previous version:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-18

Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the diff is available at tools.ietf.org.

IETF Secretariat.


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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:46:56 -0500
Cc: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari , Paul Hoffman , "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" 
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References: <151787881067.24931.8386330196371198659.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF490B4B82@njmtexg5.research.att.com> <0E11F928-6E7C-44D7-A2E9-BCD1B569E215@nostrum.com>
To: Adam Roach 
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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I just posted a new version based on the discussion prior to this and will u=
pdate according to any follow ups from this or other edits.  The update only=
 includes the comments responded to so far, more to come.

Thank you,
Kathleen=20

Sent from my mobile device

> On Feb 9, 2018, at 3:34 PM, Adam Roach  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Feb 9, 2018, at 10:21, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)  wrote:=

>>=20
>> If you are notified by SMS, what happens next?
>> Does the SMS suggest that you call customer care to resolve the issue
>> (which might be less efficient than accessing your account on the web,
>> and authorizing additional Data Usage) ?
>=20
> No, you access your account on the web.
>=20
> 
>=20
>=20
> /a
>=20
>=20


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From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" 
To: Kathleen Moriarty 
CC: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari , The IESG , "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" , Paul Hoffman 
Thread-Topic: Deborah Brungard's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 20:53:31 +0000
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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" 
To: Adam Roach 
CC: Kathleen Moriarty , The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari , Paul Hoffman , "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2018 3:34 PM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)
> Cc: Kathleen Moriarty; The IESG; opsawg@ietf.org; Warren Kumari; Paul
> Hoffman; draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17:
> (with COMMENT)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > On Feb 9, 2018, at 10:21, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) 
> wrote:
> >
> > If you are notified by SMS, what happens next?
> > Does the SMS suggest that you call customer care to resolve the issue
> > (which might be less efficient than accessing your account on the web,
> > and authorizing additional Data Usage) ?
>=20
> No, you access your account on the web.
[ACM]=20

Good, that's a nice SMS-based work-around for HTTP Re-direct.
There are customers with no-SMS service, like laptops
with embedded or USB cellular modems. Got a good idea for them?



From nobody Fri Feb  9 14:55:15 2018
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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
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To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" 
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Deborah Brungard's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi, Deborah.

Sent from my mobile device

> On Feb 9, 2018, at 3:53 PM, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A  wrote:
>=20
> Hi Kathleen,
>=20
> Much better=F0=9F=98=8A
>=20
> And as we discussed, not all these procedures are used by *all* operators,=
 already there are other tools available/in development. I've slightly tweak=
ed the following to hopefully clarify:
>=20
> As stated in RFC7258, "an appropriate balance (between network management a=
nd PM mitigations) will emerge over time as real instances of this tension a=
re considered." Numerous operators made it clear in their response to this d=
ocument that they fully support strong encryption and providing privacy for e=
nd users, this is a common goal.  Operators recognize not all the practices d=
ocumented need to be supported going forward, either because of the risk to e=
nd user privacy or alternate technologies and tools have already emerged. Th=
is document is intended to support network engineers and other innovators to=
 work toward solving network and security management problems with protocol d=
esigners and application developers in new ways that facilitate adoption of s=
trong encryption rather than preventing the use of encryption. By having the=
 discussions on network and security management practices with application d=
evelopers and protocol designers, each side of the debate can understand eac=
h others goals and work toward alternate solutions. A goal of this document i=
s to assist the IETF to understand some of the current practices so as to id=
entify new work items for IETF-related use cases which can help facilitate t=
he adoption of strong session encryption and support network and security ma=
nagement.
>=20

Your edits look great and improve the text further.  We=E2=80=99ll get them i=
n the next revision.

Thank you!
Kathleen=20

> Thanks!
> Deborah
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: iesg [mailto:iesg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2018 10:57 AM
> To: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A 
> Cc: opsawg@ietf.org; Warren Kumari ; The IESG ; draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org; Paul Hoffman 
> Subject: Re: Deborah Brungard's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt=
-17: (with COMMENT)
>=20
> Hi Deborah,
>=20
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Deborah Brungard  wrote:
>> Deborah Brungard has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all=20
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=20
>> this introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please refer to=20
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_iesg
>> _statement_discuss-2Dcriteria.html&d=3DDwIBaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&=
r
>> =3D6UhGpW9lwi9dM7jYlxXD8w&m=3D8M35KpcqzI3VzEU66Ux0nzlEfwm0h78rAN_pYnkJJIo=
&
>> s=3DawEF1_D-eBDtsSZwy-LHDfmZyWBpfrQFnAJ4Zfv8QAk&e=3D
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.
>> org_doc_draft-2Dmm-2Dwg-2Deffect-2Dencrypt_&d=3DDwIBaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMT=
S
>> QicvjIg&r=3D6UhGpW9lwi9dM7jYlxXD8w&m=3D8M35KpcqzI3VzEU66Ux0nzlEfwm0h78rAN=
_
>> pYnkJJIo&s=3DH8IAnJEU4LeLp6IG2fx3fVephVrA9aSGrRtIRPghj2M&e=3D
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Thanks for handling my other comments, the abstract and intro for=20
>> setting context are much improved. I found some sections still though=20
>> need some neutrality/tweaking, others have already provided detailed comm=
ents.
>>=20
>> For me, section 8 as the "way forward" is especially weak and=20
>> confusing. As the last section of a very detailed, lengthy document, a=20=

>> more concise, stronger summary is needed on the purpose of the document.
>=20
> Great point, I moved some of the examples into section 1.2 and one is over=
lapping, so that has been deleted.  I also noticed your prior request to inc=
lude a sentence on operators support of encryption (which we've heard from m=
any operators) was removed from the introductory text when other text replac=
ements were provided.  I think it makes sense to add it back into section 8 a=
s that will also help the tone of the document so readers understand there i=
s wide support for encryption and this document seeks to find ways to increa=
se adoption of strong session encryption.
>=20
> How about the following for Section 8:
>=20
>=20
> As stated in RFC7258, "an appropriate balance (between network management a=
nd PM mitigations) will emerge over time as real instances of this tension a=
re considered."  This document is intended as a first step for engineers and=
 other innovators to work toward solving network and security management pro=
blems with protocol designers and application developers in new ways rather t=
han preventing the use of encryption. Numerous operators made it clear in th=
eir response to this document that they fully support strong encryption and p=
roviding privacy for end users, this is a common goal.  By having the discus=
sions on network and security management practices with application develope=
rs and protocol designers, each side of the debate can understand each other=
s goals and work toward alternate solutions.
> A goal of this document is to increase adoption of strong session encrypti=
on as a result of work spurred on by documenting the current practices of op=
erators resulting in new work items tackling only the IETF supported use cas=
es faced by operators.
>=20
>>=20
>> "Changes to improve encryption or to deploy OS methods have little
>>   impact on the detection of malicious actors; they already have access
>>   to strong encryption."
>=20
> I moved this text as a second paragraph to the introduction in section
> 5 and now reads as follows:
>=20
> Changes to improve encryption or to deploy OS methods have little impact o=
n the detection of malicious actors. Malicious actors have had access to str=
ong encryption for quite some time.  Incident responders, in many cases, hav=
e developed techniques to locate malicious traffic within encrypted sessions=
.  The following section will note some examples where detection and mitigat=
ion of such traffic has been successful.
>=20
>>=20
>> And the last two sentences cast a foreboding outlook:
>> "..but make passive monitoring broadly cost
>>   prohibitive.  This is meant to restrict monitoring to sessions where
>>   there is reason to have suspicion."
>=20
> I see what you are saying and I have trimmed section 8 to the single parag=
raph listed above, edits are welcome.
>=20
> Thank you for your review and assistance to improve the document.
>=20
>>=20
>> The End for this 40-page story?
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>=20


From nobody Fri Feb  9 18:38:57 2018
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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:38:09 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" 
Cc: Adam Roach , The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" ,  Warren Kumari , Paul Hoffman ,  "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 5:31 PM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)  wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2018 3:34 PM
>> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)
>> Cc: Kathleen Moriarty; The IESG; opsawg@ietf.org; Warren Kumari; Paul
>> Hoffman; draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17:
>> (with COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 9, 2018, at 10:21, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > If you are notified by SMS, what happens next?
>> > Does the SMS suggest that you call customer care to resolve the issue
>> > (which might be less efficient than accessing your account on the web,
>> > and authorizing additional Data Usage) ?
>>
>> No, you access your account on the web.
> [ACM]
>
> Good, that's a nice SMS-based work-around for HTTP Re-direct.
> There are customers with no-SMS service, like laptops
> with embedded or USB cellular modems. Got a good idea for them?
>

Other updates are in the pending version, this will follow after the
discussion comes to a conclusion.  Thanks.
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 22:02:55 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG]  =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draf?= =?utf-8?q?t-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Mirja,

Now back to your comments.  Thanks again for your assistance with
recommendations to reshape section 2 and other sections.

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
 wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind  wrote:
>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm=
l
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Really thanks a lot for all the work on this document! I changed my posi=
tion
>> from discuss to no objection with these edits now because I think there =
are
>> still things that could be improved to make the document more useful. Ho=
wever,
>> I also think that it is important to publish this document soonish and I=
 don't
>> think any additional delay would help the message significantly.
>
> Thanks, Mirja.  I agree.  We were hesitant to change the text more
> after the extensive IESG round of comments since we wanted to keep it
> close to what people agreed on so this wouldn't take too long to get
> out if modifications caused problems.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> Old comment for the record:
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> I would be a 'Yes' because I think this document is very valuable, howev=
er, I
>> think it could be structured better to provide more value. The document =
is
>> rather long and has some redundancy due to the structure: while sections=
 2.-4.
>> are split based on the type of network operator, sections 5. and 6. are =
split
>> based on the protocol layer. Further I think section 2 could be further
>> extended because there are more cases to cover, also see (section 3 of)
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits-03. See=
 for
>> more concrete and mostly editorial comments below:
>>
>> 1) sec 2.1.1: "The definition of a flow will be based on a
>>    combination of header fields, often as many as five for 5-tuple flows
>>   (including addresses and ports for source and destination, and one
>>    additional field such as the DSCP or other priority marking)."
>> Usually the 5th field is the protocol number; I'm not aware of any load
>> balancers that look at DSCP...?

This update was made previously as DSCP no longer appears in the document.

>>
>> 2) sec 2.1.4 seems to cover two different cases: caching and differentia=
l
>> treatment

This has been changed, differential treatment is in section 2.2.2 and
caching in 2.2.5.

>>
>> 3) sec 2.1.6. should probably be called "Content Filtering" and "Mobilit=
y
>> Middlebox Content Filtering" should be an own subsection, as parental fi=
ltering
>> is not specific to mobile networks.

This change appears to have been made already.  This is now section
2.3.1 and there's only one mention of mobile content filtering, which
reads to me that this particular description could be any
network-based content filtering solution, so I'll make that adjustment
too.  Here's the change adding the second sentence:

    In a mobile network content filtering usually occurs in the core networ=
k.
    With other networks, content filtering could occur in the core
network or at the edge.

>>
>> 4) I don't really understand why sec 2.1.7 "Access and Policy Enforcemen=
t" is a
>> subsection of 2.1 "Middlebox Monitoring". Was that on purpose or an erro=
r?
>> Actually I don't really understand the structure of section 2 at all. Wh=
at's
>> the difference between 2.1 and 2.2? I would group section 2.1.1, 2.1.2, =
and
>> 2.1.3 under Traffic Monitoring and move all other subsections of 2.1 one=
 level
>> up...

This has all been changed in a previous version, some with your guidance.

>>
>> 5) sec 3 rather describes how encryption is already used and doesn't not=
 really
>> discuss any effects of increased use of encryption.

Section 3.2.1 includes some examples where they are still working
through the 'impact'.  The other sections are examples of where this
has already been worked through, so a positive in how you can go
forward managing encrypted networks.  Storage providers, for instance,
increased logging and reporting capabilities to ensure customers could
make this customer requested shift.

>>
>> 6) there is quite some overlap between section 2 and 4.1.3. as the probl=
ems on
>> monitoring/troubleshoot are the same for enterprise network and other ne=
tworks;
>> the only difference is that in enterprises TLS interception may be accep=
table
>> while it's not for network operators. However, it would still be good to=
 better
>> align these sections.

We'll take a look at this, it's just a little difficult to merge. Thanks.

>>
>> 7) section 6 only describes with information is visible but not how and =
if this
>> information is used and what would happen if this information would go a=
way.

Section 6.2 and 6.3 go into this a bit more now with specifics on TLS
1.3 and expected changes with adopted drafts.

>>
>> 8) section 7 should be integrated in the introduction because it sets th=
e
>> context for this document and it's not needed to have read the rest of t=
he
>> document to understand this section.

I'm wondering if this is an old comment since section 7 has been
reworked to only include the old 7.1.4?

Thanks again for your additional suggestions.

>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Fri Feb  9 20:09:50 2018
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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 23:09:06 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Alexey Melnikov 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Alexey,

Thanks again for your comments.  Responses inline.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Alexey Melnikov  wrote:
>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> This document is not perfect, but I found it to be generally useful. This
>> version is much improved.
>>
>> When you talk about logging, maybe mentioning "protocol trace logging" or "PDU
>> logging" as a useful tool for troubleshooting that can be provided by both
>> client and server endpoints?

Great suggestion.  The following has been added to the last paragraph
of section 2.1.2 that discusses the types of logging that would be
helpful.

NEW:
A gap exists for vendors where built-in diagnostics and serviceability
is not adequate to provide detailed logging and debugging capabilities
that, when possible, can access cleartext network parameters. In
addition to traditional logging and debugging methods, packet tracing
and inspection along the service path provides operators the
visibility to continue to diagnose problems reported both internally
and by their customers. Logging of service path upon exit for routing
overlay protocols will assist with policy management and
troubleshooting capabilities for traffic flows on encrypted networks.
Protocol trace logging and protocol data unit (PDU) logging should
also be considered to improve visibility to monitor and troubleshoot
application level traffic. Additional work on this gap would assist
network operators to better troubleshoot and manage networks with
increasing amounts of encrypted traffic.

>>
>> DMARC (RFC 7489) should probably be mentioned in Section 5.1 where you mention
>> ARF.

The following has been added taking text from the DMARC abstract,
please let us know if you'd like to see any changes or additional text
since the ARF ext is a bit more detailed:


Another effort, Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and
Conformance (DMARC) RFC7489 is a mechanism for policy distribution
that enables increasingly strict handling of messages that fail
authentication checks, ranging from no action, through altered
delivery, up to message rejection.

Thank you!

>>
>
> Thanks for your helpful comments, Alexey.  We will make these updates
> in a revision after the telechat.
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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A new version (-19) has been submitted for draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-19.txt


The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/

Diff from previous version:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-19

Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the diff is available at tools.ietf.org.

IETF Secretariat.


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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" 
To: Joel Halpern , "gen-art@ietf.org" 
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From nobody Sun Feb 11 07:45:35 2018
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Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 10:50:57 -0500
From: Jeffrey Haas 
To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , opsawg@ietf.org
Cc: "idr@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] [Idr] FW: WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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Authors,

Thanks for accommodating my prior comments on this draft.

I have one final issue to raise with the draft.  The information elements
for extended community and large community by nature of their size are of
type octetArray.  The draft correctly notes the expected size of each of
these elements; 8 and 12 respectively.

The draft provides no guidance for when each of these elements is NOT of the
expected size.

My recommendation is a small paragraph to the Operational Considerations
section:
"In the event that the bgpExtendedCommunity or bgpLargeCommunity Elements
are not of their expected sizes (8 and 12 octets, respectively), the
receiver SHOULD ignore them."

I'm not savvy with the general language wrapped around receiver procedure
for IPFIX these days, so a bit of additional verbiage might be expected for
appropriate draft boilerplate.  However, this is intended to protect
implementations using BGP logic from calling their parsing routines with
invalid lengths.

-- Jeff

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 08:26:52AM +0000, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> Currently this BGP related draft is in WG LC in OPSAWG, their chairs suggest IDR to take a look at it, please send comments (if any) to OPSAWG mailing list.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jie
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tianran Zhou 
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 11:31 AM
> To: 'idr-chairs@ietf.org'
> Cc: 'opsawg-chairs@ietf.org'
> Subject: FW: WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
> 
> Dear IDR Chairs,
> 
> The OPSAWG started a 2 week WG LC for the following draft:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
> 
> We got many comments and suggestions from IDR when this work is adopted. Now the authors believe the document is ready.
> We really appreciate more comments from this working group.
> 
> Could you please help to forward this information to the IDR mailing list?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 11:07 AM
> To: opsawg@ietf.org
> Cc: opsawg-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [OPSAWG] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
> 
> Hi WG,
> 
> The authors of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community have posted the latest drafts to the mailing list, and believe that the document is ready for LC.
> 
> This starts a 2 week WG LC on
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
> 
> Please read the above draft and send any issues, comments, or corrections to this mailing list. 
> All supports and concerns are welcome and helpful for the authors.
> 
> We are also looking for a document shepherd, best with operator background, to help the following procedures.  
> 
> The WG LC will close on Feb 1, 2018.
> Authors please indicate whether you are aware of any IPR for the draft.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
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From nobody Sun Feb 11 08:37:47 2018
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To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , "gen-art@ietf.org" 
Cc: "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
References: <151819723555.1208.12835539554987861622@ietfa.amsl.com> <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927982D3D8D@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" 
Message-ID: <05c59213-301b-ca3e-f7c1-2c4b5314fb01@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 11:37:37 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
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This was a requested early review.  You folks can do as you deem best.

 From where I sit, it seems odd.  Most well-known communities do not fit 
the pattern of representing groups of sources or groups of destinations.
I presume the intent here is for this to be useful in some AS other than 
the one originating the communities.  Which makes it even harder to see 
when it would apply.
I presume this is driven by having found that it would have helped in 
some real-world situation?

I think the document would be helped by a clearer description of when it 
applies and what behavior is expected of the router (not just "the same 
as that over there.")

Yours,
Joel

On 2/11/18 1:32 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> Thanks for your review comments. Please see my replies inline:
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joel Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:27 AM
>> To: gen-art@ietf.org
>> Cc: draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
>> Subject: Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>>
>> Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>> Review result: Not Ready
>>
>> This is an early gen-art review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-04.
>>
>> The document is clear about what it is trying to do, and readable.  It is not
>> clear about how it expects this to actually work.
>>
>> However, I find the underlying concept confusing.
>> 1) BGP Communities may sometimes represent subsets of traffic.  But usually
>> they represent tagging intended to influence routing which is only indirectly
>> related to meaningful subsets of traffic for TE purposes.  One may be able to
>> make an argument that this could better enable monitoring the effects of some
>> BGP communities.  But the draft does not make that argument.
> 
> This depends on how the BGP communities are used by the operators. Except some well-known communities, BGP communities are used in a customized manner. In some cases, BGP communities indicate the source and destination information of a group of traffic flows. These are the major case this document is focusing on, as it would be helpful for operator to collect the traffic statistics based on BGP communities. Using BGP communities to influence routing is another popular use case. In that case, it may also be helpful to collect traffic statistic information related to the BGP communities, while the purpose may not be just for TE.
> 
> 2) It is
>> unclear what this actually expects the router to do in generating this
>> information.
>> Reading between the lines, it seems that what is desired is for the router
>> control process to go through the IPFIX collected information before it is
>> exported, and add BGP community tags to the export information.
>> (Generating such information directly from the forwarding plane would place
>> significant load on the forwarding representation and processing, and on the
>> control logic to generate FIB information.)  Given that off-line BGP information
>> collection is a common practice, and that such information is common across
>> the AS, it would actually seem simpler to perform such processing and
>> aggregation offline rather than in the router.
> 
> The behavior of a router would be similar to its behavior with the existing BGP relevant IEs, e.g. bgpSourceAsNumber, bgpDestinationAsNumber, bgpNextHopIPv4Address, etc. Basically this is the aggregated traffic information collection model, in which the router aggregates the collected traffic information based on the IEs specified in the template, so that it can export much less information to the collector without losing the information the collector really cares about. Exporting aggregated traffic statistics has been widely used in the networks.
>   
> Note that the purpose of this mechanism is to export the aggregated traffic statistics information at the granularity specified by BGP communities, while BMP can used to collect the detailed information of BGP RIBs and BGP events, IMO they are designed for different purposes. Although it is possible to export all the non-aggregated traffic information to the collector, and let the collector to correlate them with the BGP communities, this can bring heavy burden to both the exporter and the collector.
> 
>>
>> If the IDR working group has not been consulted about this, I would strongly
>> recommend working with them as to whether this is actually useful information
>> to collect, and how and where to collect it. If the IDR working group does not
>> consider important to work on this, then that gives you useful information in
>> and of itself.
> 
> The IDR WG has been notified about the LC of this document, so far there is no objection received from them. We would like to encourage IDR people to review and give feedbacks to help improve this document. Whether the new IEs are useful or not should be determined in the OPSAWG.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jie
> 


From nobody Mon Feb 12 07:10:14 2018
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A new version (-20) has been submitted for draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-20.txt


The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/

Diff from previous version:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-20

Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the diff is available at tools.ietf.org.

IETF Secretariat.


From nobody Mon Feb 12 22:49:14 2018
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" 
To: Jeffrey Haas , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
CC: "idr@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Idr] FW: WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] [Idr] FW: WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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Hi Jeff,=20

Thanks a lot for your comments and recommendation, which will be reflected =
in next revision of this document.=20

Best regards,
Jie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey Haas [mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org]
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:51 PM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; opsawg@ietf.org
> Cc: idr@ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Idr] FW: WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
>=20
> Authors,
>=20
> Thanks for accommodating my prior comments on this draft.
>=20
> I have one final issue to raise with the draft.  The information elements=
 for
> extended community and large community by nature of their size are of typ=
e
> octetArray.  The draft correctly notes the expected size of each of these
> elements; 8 and 12 respectively.
>=20
> The draft provides no guidance for when each of these elements is NOT of =
the
> expected size.
>=20
> My recommendation is a small paragraph to the Operational Considerations
> section:
> "In the event that the bgpExtendedCommunity or bgpLargeCommunity
> Elements are not of their expected sizes (8 and 12 octets, respectively),=
 the
> receiver SHOULD ignore them."
>=20
> I'm not savvy with the general language wrapped around receiver procedure
> for IPFIX these days, so a bit of additional verbiage might be expected f=
or
> appropriate draft boilerplate.  However, this is intended to protect
> implementations using BGP logic from calling their parsing routines with =
invalid
> lengths.
>=20
> -- Jeff
>=20
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 08:26:52AM +0000, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Currently this BGP related draft is in WG LC in OPSAWG, their chairs su=
ggest
> IDR to take a look at it, please send comments (if any) to OPSAWG mailing=
 list.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tianran Zhou
> > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 11:31 AM
> > To: 'idr-chairs@ietf.org'
> > Cc: 'opsawg-chairs@ietf.org'
> > Subject: FW: WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
> >
> > Dear IDR Chairs,
> >
> > The OPSAWG started a 2 week WG LC for the following draft:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
> >
> > We got many comments and suggestions from IDR when this work is adopted=
.
> Now the authors believe the document is ready.
> > We really appreciate more comments from this working group.
> >
> > Could you please help to forward this information to the IDR mailing li=
st?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran
> > Zhou
> > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 11:07 AM
> > To: opsawg@ietf.org
> > Cc: opsawg-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: [OPSAWG] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
> >
> > Hi WG,
> >
> > The authors of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community have posted the la=
test
> drafts to the mailing list, and believe that the document is ready for LC=
.
> >
> > This starts a 2 week WG LC on
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
> >
> > Please read the above draft and send any issues, comments, or correctio=
ns to
> this mailing list.
> > All supports and concerns are welcome and helpful for the authors.
> >
> > We are also looking for a document shepherd, best with operator backgro=
und,
> to help the following procedures.
> >
> > The WG LC will close on Feb 1, 2018.
> > Authors please indicate whether you are aware of any IPR for the draft.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OPSAWG mailing list
> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Idr mailing list
> > Idr@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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----- Original Message -----
From: 
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 6:43 AM

> Hi Tom,
>
> I submitted a new revision of the draft which addresses your comments.
Thank you.
>

Med,

Yes, looks good,

Tom Petch

> Cheers,
> Med
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : t.petch [mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com]
> > Envoyé : mercredi 7 février 2018 17:48
> > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> > Cc : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
> > Objet : Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of
draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
> >
> > Med
> >
> > Looks good.  Two loose ends.
> >
> > On RFC6052 being a Normative reference from RFC7915 and so not
needing
> > further citing, well yes, I suppose so:-)
> >
> > On idnits and RFC7050, you cannot have an RFC style reference such
as
> > [RFCnnnn] in the YANG module, with the underlying  in
the
> > html version, because the YANG module must be capable of existing
> > outside the RFC, in plain text and not in HTML.  This is what
> > " Section 5.1 of [RFC7050]).  "
> > looks like to me, an attempt to create an HTML anchor that cannot
exist
> > in  plain text YANG module.  I do not know if idnits is clever
enough to
> > recognise a YANG (or MIB or ... ) module and know that RFC style
> > references cannot appear in it, although the character string 'RFC
nnnn'
> > or 'RFCnnnn' can do so.
> >
> > So if you have RFC nnnn in Normative or Informative References, you
must
> > have [RFCnnnn] somewhere in the text of the RFC outside the YANG
module;
> > and vice versa.
> >
> > Tom Petch
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: "t.petch" 
> > Cc: ; 
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:35 PM
> > Subject: RE: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of
> > draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
> >
> >
> > > Hi Tom,
> > >
> > > Thank you for the careful review.
> > >
> > > Please see inline.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Med
> > >
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De : t.petch [mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com]
> > > > Envoyé : mercredi 7 février 2018 13:01
> > > > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> > > > Cc : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
> > > > Objet : Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of
> > draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
> > > >
> > > > While you are at it, you might like to note
> > > >
> > > > s1.1
> > > > / A NAPT my use /A NAPT may use /
> > >
> > > [Med] Fixed.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >   feature siit {
> > > >   description
> > > >     ......
> > > >        The translator must support the stateless address mapping
> > > >        algorithm defined in RFC6052, which is the default
> > behavior.";
> > > >     reference
> > > >       "RFC 7915: IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm";
> > > >
> > > > If the algorithm in RFC6052 must be supported, I would expect
this
> > to
> > > > appear in the Reference clause
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] RFC6052 is not cited because it is already listed as a
normative
> > reference in "RFC 7915: IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm". I thought
this
> > is redundant. No?
> > >
> > > >  list nat64-prefixes {
> > > > .....
> > > >             Destination-based Pref64::/n is discussed in
> > > >             Section 5.1 of [RFC7050]). For example:
> > > >             192.0.2.0/24 is mapped to 2001:db8:122:300::/56.
> > > >             198.51.100.0/24 is mapped to 2001:db8:122::/48.";
> > > >          reference
> > > >            "Section 5.1 of RFC7050.";
> > > >
> > > > I see no RFC7050 in the Reference section of the I-D
> > >
> > > [Med] Fixed.
> > >
> > > What is strange, is that when I run idnits, I do have this error:
> > >
> > >   Checking references for intended status: Proposed Standard
> >
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > >
> > >      (See RFCs 3967 and 4897 for information about using normative
> > references
> > >      to lower-maturity documents in RFCs)
> > >
> > >   == Unused Reference: 'RFC7050' is defined on line 3585, but no
> > explicit
> > >      reference was found in the text
> > >      '[RFC7050]  Savolainen, T., Korhonen, J., and D. Wing,
"Discovery
> > of...'
> > >
> > > It seems that idnits does not look at the citations in the YANG
> > module.
> > >
> > > I made this change to cite that RFC outside the YANG module:
> > >
> > > OLD:
> > >    o  Stateful NAT64
> > >
> > > NEW:
> > >    o  Stateful NAT64 (including with destination-based Pref64::/n
> > >       RFC7050])
> > >
> > > >
> > > >         leaf logging-enable {
> > > > ....
> > > >           reference
> > > >             "Section 2.3 of RFC 6908 and REQ-12 of RFC6888.";
> > > >         }
> > > >
> > > > I see no RFC6908 in the Reference section of the I-D
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Med] Fixed. Thanks.
> > >
> > > Idem as above. I made this change to make idnits happy:
> > >
> > > OLD:
> > >    This YANG module allows to instruct a NAT function to enable
the
> > >    logging feature.
> > >
> > > NEW:
> > >    This YANG module allows to instruct a NAT function to enable
the
> > >    logging feature (Section 2.3 of [RFC6908] and REQ-12 of
[RFC6888]).
> > >
> > >
> > > > Tom Petch
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: 
> > > > To: "Joe Clarke" ; "Tim Chown"
> > 
> > > > Cc: ;
;
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 8:14 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of
> > > > draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Joe, all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks. Lets' then go that path.
> > > > >
> > > > > A new version which addresses the comments from Tim (remove
the
> > NPTv6
> > > > part + some minor edits) is available at:
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/?include_tex
> > > > t=1
> > > > >
> > > > > Tim, thank you for identifying this issue at this stage of the
> > > > publication process.
> > > > >
> > > > > One logistic question for the NPTv6 document, though: Should
it be
> > > > published (1) as draft-ietf-ospawg-* given that its content was
part
> > of
> > > > the document that was accepted by the WG and that passed the
WGLC or
> > (2)
> > > > as an individual document that will be handed to the AD together
> > with
> > > > draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang?
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Med
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
>
>


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Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari , Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
To: Kathleen Moriarty 
References: <151798204429.25802.2843661868566925261.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Kathleen,

Thanks for your response. Comments inline; I deleted sections that do =
not seem to need further discussion.

Thanks!

Ben.

> On Feb 9, 2018, at 1:18 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Ben,
>=20
> Thanks again for the comments, responses and proposals are inline.
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:40 AM, Ben Campbell  wrote:
>> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> This is a considerably better document than the previous versions I =
have
>> reviewed. Thanks for all that work. But of course, I still have some =
comments
>> :-)
>>=20
>> Substantive Comments:
>>=20
>> -2.2.2, 2nd paragraph: "... for example, many
>>   forms of communications (from isochronous/real-time to bulk/elastic
>>   file transfer) will take place over HTTP port 80 or port 443, so =
only
>>   the messages and higher-layer data will make application
>>   differentiation possible."
>>=20
>> I'm confused about the use of port 443 in that sentence; presumably =
traffic to
>> 443 will be encrypted and not allow differentiation using =
higher-layer data.
>=20
> TLS 1.2 does leave data exposed for differentiation, SNI for example.
> TLS 1.3 leaves some, but there will be options to encrypt SNI at some
> point in the future.  The response to ALPN will be returned in
> encrypted extensions in TLS 1.3.  These are just the examples that
> come readily to mind and are included in the document.
>=20
> Do you think additional text is needed in this section around the port
> 443 example or is this covered enough later in the document?

No, I think that's fine. I was not thinking about information revealed =
by TLS itself.

>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> -2.2.4: This section lacks a discussion of the impact of encryption.
>=20
> Good point.  I added one sentence at the edn of the second to last
> paragraph and modified the last paragraph as follows.  Let me know if
> this looks good or you would like to see changes.
>=20
>   If impacted by encryption, performance enhancing proxies could make
> use of routing
>   overlay protocols to accomplish the same task, but this results in
> additional overhead.
>=20
>   An application-type-aware network edge (middlebox) can further
> control pacing, limit
>   simultaneous HD videos, or prioritize active videos against new =
videos, etc.
>   Services at this more granular level are limited with the use of
> encryption.

WFM.

>=20
>>=20
>> -2.2.5, last paragraph: I understand that techniques that require =
endpoint
>> cooperation might be out of scope, but the tone of this paragraph =
makes it
>> sound like requiring endpoint cooperation is a negative. Is that the =
intent?
>=20
> Good catch, no that was not the intent and is in conflict with the
> following sentence.  How about the following modification:
>=20
>    Alternate approaches are in the early phase of being explored to
> allow caching of
>    encrypted content.  These solutions require cooperation from
> content owners and
>    fall outside the scope of what is covered in this document.
> Content delegation
>    allows for replication with possible benefits, but any form of
> delegation has the
>    potential to affect the expectation of client-server =
confidentiality.

WFM.

[=E2=80=A6]

>>=20
>> -2.3.1: I think it might be worth mentioning that an "intercepting =
certificate"
>> requires endpoints to be configured to trust that certificate. (I =
assume we are
>> not talking about the more unsavory practice of certificates that =
misrepresent
>> their subjects.
>=20
> OK, I read this as being covered, but added the following as it must
> not be clear enough to others if you raised this point (thanks for
> doing so):
>=20
>     Content filtering via a proxy can also utilize an intercepting
> certificate where
>     the client's session is terminated at the proxy enabling for
> cleartext inspection
>     of the traffic. A new session is created from the intercepting
> device to the
>     client's destination, this is an opt-in strategy for the client,
> where the endpoint
>     is configured to trust the intercepting certificate. Changes to
> TLSv1.3 do not
>     impact this more invasive method of interception, where this has
> the potential
>     to expose every HTTPS session to an active man in the middle =
(MitM).

WFM.

>=20
>>=20
>> -2.3.4 I concur with Adam that this section should explicitly mention
>> "cross-site user tracking" as one of the common motivations for =
header
>> insertion/enrichment. I think it should also include a mention of RFC =
8165.
>=20
> Adam's request has already been addressed by adding that text.  How
> abotu the following paragrpah to address the addition of an 8165
> reference and for it to make sense in context of the document:
>=20
>    Guidance from the Internet Architecture Board has been provided in =
RFC8165
>    on Design Considerations for Metadata Insertion.  The guidance =
asserts that
>    designs that share metadata only by explicit actions at the host
> are preferable
>    to designs in which middleboxes insert metadata.  Alternate =
notification
>    methods that follow this and other guidance would be helpful to
> mobile carriers.

Looks good.


>=20
>>=20
>> -5.2: This section doesn't seem to include discussion of the impact =
of
>> encryption.
>=20
> I added the following to address your comment, thank you.
>=20
> The impact of encryption can be understood from their documented use
> cases I-D.ietf-dots-use-cases.

Okay.

>=20
>> Editorial and nits:
>>=20

[=E2=80=A6]

>>=20
>> -2.2.5, first paragraph: " Encryption of packet contents at a given
>>   protocol layer usually makes DPI processing of that layer and =
higher
>>   layers impossible. "
>>=20
>> This sentence seems misplaced; the section is not about DPI.
>=20
> Hmm, I read this as DPI being used in these functions, hence the
> impact of encryption.  I'm wondering if reading the first sentence
> again helps:
>=20
>   The features and efficiency of some Internet services can be =
augmented
>   through analysis of user flows and the applications they provide.
>=20
> Or if I am missing something.  If so, please let me know!
>=20

No, I apparently lost state between the first sentence and the sentence =
I commented on :-)

[=E2=80=A6]


>>=20
>> -3.1.2: This section is about Hosting SPs, but the last two =
paragraphs seem to
>> be about ASPs. While I realize those may sometimes be the same =
organization,
>> they are architecturally distinct.
>=20
> I changed the section heading for 3 to include application service
> providers as the document doesn't have another place for that content.
> I agree with the distinction you are making, let me know if this is an
> okay fix.
>=20

ThaWFM.

>>=20
>> -3.2.2: "STARTTLS ought have zero effect..."
>> "Ought to have zero effect" or "has little effect"?  (If the former, =
it's safe
>> to say "should" since this draft does not use RFC 2119 keywords.)
>=20
> This wording came from Stephen in his original AD review, so we stuck =
with it.
> Ought to has been pretty common practice in RFCs, but I guess we used
> to see this more at the beginning of my term as an AD.  I'll add the
> to and if anyone else wants it changed, it's not a big deal.

I did not mean to complain about =E2=80=9Cought to=E2=80=9D per se, but =
I was wondering why the text used a subjunctive from for what seemed =
like a statement of fact. Was the point to talk about the way things =
should be, or the way things are (or maybe are expected)?

>=20
>>=20
>> -12: Are there really no normative references? The definition of a =
"normative
>> reference" is any reference needed to fully implement or _understand_ =
the
>> document. This is true for both informational and standards-track =
documents. Do
>> you think a reader can fully understand this document if they ignore =
every
>> reference?  (I'm willing to accept that the answer might be "yes" =
given the
>> nature of this draft--but that situation is rare in practice.)
>=20
> We'll think about this a bit more, thanks.
>>=20
>>=20

To be clear, I=E2=80=99m perfectly happy if you decide that there really =
are no normative references; I just wanted to make sure it was thought =
about.


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In-Reply-To: 
References: <151798204429.25802.2843661868566925261.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  
From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:58:04 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Ben Campbell 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Ben,

Thanks for checking back through the responses.  inline

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Ben Campbell  wrote:
> Hi Kathleen,
>
> Thanks for your response. Comments inline; I deleted sections that do not=
 seem to need further discussion.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ben.
>
>> On Feb 9, 2018, at 1:18 PM, Kathleen Moriarty  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ben,
>>
>> Thanks again for the comments, responses and proposals are inline.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:40 AM, Ben Campbell  wrote:
>>> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
>>> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: No Objection
>>>
>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht=
ml
>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>
>>>
>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> COMMENT:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> This is a considerably better document than the previous versions I hav=
e
>>> reviewed. Thanks for all that work. But of course, I still have some co=
mments
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> Substantive Comments:
>>>
>>> -2.2.2, 2nd paragraph: "... for example, many
>>>   forms of communications (from isochronous/real-time to bulk/elastic
>>>   file transfer) will take place over HTTP port 80 or port 443, so only
>>>   the messages and higher-layer data will make application
>>>   differentiation possible."
>>>
>>> I'm confused about the use of port 443 in that sentence; presumably tra=
ffic to
>>> 443 will be encrypted and not allow differentiation using higher-layer =
data.
>>
>> TLS 1.2 does leave data exposed for differentiation, SNI for example.
>> TLS 1.3 leaves some, but there will be options to encrypt SNI at some
>> point in the future.  The response to ALPN will be returned in
>> encrypted extensions in TLS 1.3.  These are just the examples that
>> come readily to mind and are included in the document.
>>
>> Do you think additional text is needed in this section around the port
>> 443 example or is this covered enough later in the document?
>
> No, I think that's fine. I was not thinking about information revealed by=
 TLS itself.

Thanks for confirming.
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -2.2.4: This section lacks a discussion of the impact of encryption.
>>
>> Good point.  I added one sentence at the edn of the second to last
>> paragraph and modified the last paragraph as follows.  Let me know if
>> this looks good or you would like to see changes.
>>
>>   If impacted by encryption, performance enhancing proxies could make
>> use of routing
>>   overlay protocols to accomplish the same task, but this results in
>> additional overhead.
>>
>>   An application-type-aware network edge (middlebox) can further
>> control pacing, limit
>>   simultaneous HD videos, or prioritize active videos against new videos=
, etc.
>>   Services at this more granular level are limited with the use of
>> encryption.
>
> WFM.
>
>>
>>>
>>> -2.2.5, last paragraph: I understand that techniques that require endpo=
int
>>> cooperation might be out of scope, but the tone of this paragraph makes=
 it
>>> sound like requiring endpoint cooperation is a negative. Is that the in=
tent?
>>
>> Good catch, no that was not the intent and is in conflict with the
>> following sentence.  How about the following modification:
>>
>>    Alternate approaches are in the early phase of being explored to
>> allow caching of
>>    encrypted content.  These solutions require cooperation from
>> content owners and
>>    fall outside the scope of what is covered in this document.
>> Content delegation
>>    allows for replication with possible benefits, but any form of
>> delegation has the
>>    potential to affect the expectation of client-server confidentiality.
>
> WFM.
>
> [=E2=80=A6]
>
>>>
>>> -2.3.1: I think it might be worth mentioning that an "intercepting cert=
ificate"
>>> requires endpoints to be configured to trust that certificate. (I assum=
e we are
>>> not talking about the more unsavory practice of certificates that misre=
present
>>> their subjects.
>>
>> OK, I read this as being covered, but added the following as it must
>> not be clear enough to others if you raised this point (thanks for
>> doing so):
>>
>>     Content filtering via a proxy can also utilize an intercepting
>> certificate where
>>     the client's session is terminated at the proxy enabling for
>> cleartext inspection
>>     of the traffic. A new session is created from the intercepting
>> device to the
>>     client's destination, this is an opt-in strategy for the client,
>> where the endpoint
>>     is configured to trust the intercepting certificate. Changes to
>> TLSv1.3 do not
>>     impact this more invasive method of interception, where this has
>> the potential
>>     to expose every HTTPS session to an active man in the middle (MitM).
>
> WFM.
>
>>
>>>
>>> -2.3.4 I concur with Adam that this section should explicitly mention
>>> "cross-site user tracking" as one of the common motivations for header
>>> insertion/enrichment. I think it should also include a mention of RFC 8=
165.
>>
>> Adam's request has already been addressed by adding that text.  How
>> abotu the following paragrpah to address the addition of an 8165
>> reference and for it to make sense in context of the document:
>>
>>    Guidance from the Internet Architecture Board has been provided in RF=
C8165
>>    on Design Considerations for Metadata Insertion.  The guidance assert=
s that
>>    designs that share metadata only by explicit actions at the host
>> are preferable
>>    to designs in which middleboxes insert metadata.  Alternate notificat=
ion
>>    methods that follow this and other guidance would be helpful to
>> mobile carriers.
>
> Looks good.

Thanks!
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> -5.2: This section doesn't seem to include discussion of the impact of
>>> encryption.
>>
>> I added the following to address your comment, thank you.
>>
>> The impact of encryption can be understood from their documented use
>> cases I-D.ietf-dots-use-cases.
>
> Okay.
>
>>
>>> Editorial and nits:
>>>
>
> [=E2=80=A6]
>
>>>
>>> -2.2.5, first paragraph: " Encryption of packet contents at a given
>>>   protocol layer usually makes DPI processing of that layer and higher
>>>   layers impossible. "
>>>
>>> This sentence seems misplaced; the section is not about DPI.
>>
>> Hmm, I read this as DPI being used in these functions, hence the
>> impact of encryption.  I'm wondering if reading the first sentence
>> again helps:
>>
>>   The features and efficiency of some Internet services can be augmented
>>   through analysis of user flows and the applications they provide.
>>
>> Or if I am missing something.  If so, please let me know!
>>
>
> No, I apparently lost state between the first sentence and the sentence I=
 commented on :-)

Happens to all of us :-)

>
> [=E2=80=A6]
>
>
>>>
>>> -3.1.2: This section is about Hosting SPs, but the last two paragraphs =
seem to
>>> be about ASPs. While I realize those may sometimes be the same organiza=
tion,
>>> they are architecturally distinct.
>>
>> I changed the section heading for 3 to include application service
>> providers as the document doesn't have another place for that content.
>> I agree with the distinction you are making, let me know if this is an
>> okay fix.
>>
>
> ThaWFM.
>
>>>
>>> -3.2.2: "STARTTLS ought have zero effect..."
>>> "Ought to have zero effect" or "has little effect"?  (If the former, it=
's safe
>>> to say "should" since this draft does not use RFC 2119 keywords.)
>>
>> This wording came from Stephen in his original AD review, so we stuck wi=
th it.
>> Ought to has been pretty common practice in RFCs, but I guess we used
>> to see this more at the beginning of my term as an AD.  I'll add the
>> to and if anyone else wants it changed, it's not a big deal.
>
> I did not mean to complain about =E2=80=9Cought to=E2=80=9D per se, but I=
 was wondering why the text used a subjunctive from for what seemed like a =
statement of fact. Was the point to talk about the way things should be, or=
 the way things are (or maybe are expected)?

I'm happy to change and will do so :-) . I'll use should to capture
what was intended.

>
>>
>>>
>>> -12: Are there really no normative references? The definition of a "nor=
mative
>>> reference" is any reference needed to fully implement or _understand_ t=
he
>>> document. This is true for both informational and standards-track docum=
ents. Do
>>> you think a reader can fully understand this document if they ignore ev=
ery
>>> reference?  (I'm willing to accept that the answer might be "yes" given=
 the
>>> nature of this draft--but that situation is rare in practice.)
>>
>> We'll think about this a bit more, thanks.
>>>
>>>
>
> To be clear, I=E2=80=99m perfectly happy if you decide that there really =
are no normative references; I just wanted to make sure it was thought abou=
t.

OK, Al and I need to chat about this one still.

Thank you, again!
Kathleen
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


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CC: The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "Warren Kumari" , Paul Hoffman , "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" 
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Responses inline; some text elided.

On 2/9/18 8:22 AM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> §2.1.2 -- I am surprised that there is so much discussion of fields that are
>> not generally encrypted in practice (e.g., RTP headers, TCP headers). It may
>> be worth distinguishing between session-layer, transport-layer and
>> network-layer security.
>>
>> (I think I mentioned this in my initial review, and saw neither a response nor a
>> document change in reaction to it.)
> As a result of your comments and other similar ones, the introduction
> text was updated to explain that this document is not limited to TLS
> and that other end to end encryption protocols are considered in this
> draft.  The IPsec OS implementations (NULL authentication) resulting
> from RFC7258 decisions is one example of an increase in encryption
> deployment and in this case limiting visibility to a 2-tuple.
> Breaking down what is used in current operations is a way to
> understand that impact, hence discussions on visibility used from
> 5-tuples is discussed in the draft.  This section talks about the
> actual headers used in monitoring, which is at a more detailed level
> than stating session, transport, or network layer.  So we assumed
> making this additions satisfied your comment at a more detailed level.
> Would you like to see the layer in addition to the header accessed or
> an explanation in one section on what is in each layer?  I'd just like
> to understand what you are looking for in this comment to make the
> document read more clearly.

I think something very simple in §2.1.2 that explains that these 
problems arise when IPsec is used, but not when SRTP or TLS are.

> In the last revision, we tried to add in (where it made sense) if a
> 2-tuple or 5-tuple was enough throughout the document, so that's
> pretty much the same thing, but I thought was a bit more precise.

Right; I saw that elsewhere, and thought it was a very good addition.

> Or
> are you just asking for a discussion within this section in
> particular?  Thanks!

I think the relevant paragraph is this one:

    When increased encryption is used, operators lose a source of data
    that may be used to debug user issues.  Because of this, application
    server operators using increased encryption might be called upon more
    frequently to assist with debugging and troubleshooting, and thus may
    want to consider what tools can be put in the hands of their clients
    or network operators.


Perhaps something like:

    When increased encryption is used, operators may lose a source of 
data that
    can be used to debug user issues, if the encrypted data has diagnostic
    value. For example, IPsec obscures TCP and RTP header information, while
    TLS and SRTP do not.  Because of this, application server operators 
using
    certain types of encryption might be called upon more frequently to 
assist with
    debugging and troubleshooting, and thus may want to consider what 
tools can
    be put in the hands of their clients or network operators.

I'm sure you can wordsmith that into something more elegant, but that's 
the general thrust of my comment. In particular, I don't want readers to 
naïvely take away that increased encryption necessarily prevents all of 
the techniques described in this section. SRTP in particular was 
specifically engineered so that the headers were available in cleartext 
for operational purposes (e.g., header compression), and I think it's a 
bit of a disservice to that design in this context not to acknowledge 
that such operational considerations were made.

>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> §2.2.3 -- This section reads like a set of unfinished "notes to self" for the
>> authors' later use. Minimally, I would suggest restructuring the sentence
>> fragments in this section into sentences. I will also note that section 2
>> indicates that the following sections will discuss both (a) purpose of the
>> technique, and (b) fields used to achieve this purpose. This section appears
>> to lack the latter.
>>
> We'll fix the sentences, the section looks bad and I'm sorry we
> somehow didn't catch that. We've been hesitant to make additional
> changes over what's been requested by reviewers/ADs as it seems to
> invite more comments, so that may be part of why it wasn't fixed
> previously.
>
> How about the following:
> "For User Plane Congestion Management (3GPP UPCON) the ability to
> understand content and manage networks during periods of congestion is
> th efocus of this work item. Mitigating techniques such as deferred
> download, off-peak acceleration, and outbound roamers are a few
> examples of the areas explored in the associated 3GPP documents
> describing the issues, data utilized in managing congestion, and
> policy recommendations."
>
> Unfortunately, the document relied on contributions and if they didn't
> come in, we weren't able to make assumptions of what was used as
> editors.

s/th efocus/the focus/ -- it otherwise reads fine.

However, without indicating the fields used to perform this task, this 
section is unactionable. What we know is that encrypting *something* 
causes issues, but we're left guessing what that thing is -- and even 
more in the dark about what might possibly replace it. In this case, I 
think input needs to be solicited from someone knowledgeable in these 
techniques so that the section can be completed. If we can't find that, 
then I propose removing the section: being unactionable, it adds nothing 
to the document but length.

>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> §2.2.5:
>>
>>>    The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/
>>>    Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilitate
>>>    delivering same stream to different users, using either unicast or
>>>    multicast depending on channel conditions to the user.
>> This passage also reads like outline notes rather than a finished document.
> How about the following:
> The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS)
> utilizes trusted edge proxies to facilitate delivering the same stream
> to different users, using either unicast or multicast depending on
> channel conditions to the user.
>

Looks good to me. I'll respond to Al's email separately. Thanks!

/a



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To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , Kathleen Moriarty 
Cc: The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari , Paul Hoffman , "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" 
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Al --

Response inline, some text elided.

On 2/9/18 11:21 AM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote:
> Adam, please see two further suggestions, in-line:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kathleen Moriarty [mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com]
>>
>>> §2.2.7:
>>>
>>>>     A goal is protecting end-user
>>>>     data -- but at the same time not making the network inoperable or
>>>>     unmanageable.
>>> I fear this sentence falls back to the hyperbolic tone that plagued version
>>> -10 of this document. I suggest something more along the lines of "...not
>>> forcing changes to the way networks have historically been operated and
>>> managed" or something similar.
>> I'd like Al to weigh in one this change from an operator perspective.
>> To me, this reads like both sides are being weighed equally.  He may
>> have another suggestion that works to help with the tone you are
>> looking for, but also acks the impact to operators to further the
>> discussion.
>>
> [ACM]
> Since this is the section on SFC, and describing the failure of the
> classifier function [RFC7665], we are talking about the present-day
> designs and possible loss of functionality.
>
> I suggest (last phrase, with the entire paragraph included for context):
>
>     There are also mechanisms provided to protect security and privacy.
>     In the SFC case, the layer below a network service header can be
>     protected with session encryption.  A goal is protecting end-user
>     data, while retaining the intended functions of [RFC7665] at
>     the same time.

Perfect. Thanks.

/a


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To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" 
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty , The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari , Paul Hoffman , "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" 
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From: Adam Roach 
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:35:13 -0600
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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On 2/9/18 4:31 PM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2018 3:34 PM
>> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)
>> Cc: Kathleen Moriarty; The IESG; opsawg@ietf.org; Warren Kumari; Paul
>> Hoffman; draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17:
>> (with COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2018, at 10:21, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) 
>> wrote:
>>> If you are notified by SMS, what happens next?
>>> Does the SMS suggest that you call customer care to resolve the issue
>>> (which might be less efficient than accessing your account on the web,
>>> and authorizing additional Data Usage) ?
>> No, you access your account on the web.
> [ACM]
>
> Good, that's a nice SMS-based work-around for HTTP Re-direct.
> There are customers with no-SMS service, like laptops
> with embedded or USB cellular modems. Got a good idea for them?

Ah, that's a use case I hadn't considered. I suppose, since we aren't 
dealing with solutions in this document, explaining that a well-deployed 
and superior solution exists for the majority of mobile data users is a 
bit out of scope. I withdraw my objection to the statement, but would 
find a mention that problem this arises exclusively (or at least 
primarily) for non-SMS customers to be a significant improvement.

/a


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 09:46:07 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Adam Roach 
Cc: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , The IESG , "opsawg@ietf.org" ,  Warren Kumari , Paul Hoffman ,  "draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 6:35 PM, Adam Roach  wrote:
> On 2/9/18 4:31 PM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote:
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2018 3:34 PM
>>> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)
>>> Cc: Kathleen Moriarty; The IESG; opsawg@ietf.org; Warren Kumari; Paul
>>> Hoffman; draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17:
>>> (with COMMENT)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Feb 9, 2018, at 10:21, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) 
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you are notified by SMS, what happens next?
>>>> Does the SMS suggest that you call customer care to resolve the issue
>>>> (which might be less efficient than accessing your account on the web,
>>>> and authorizing additional Data Usage) ?
>>>
>>> No, you access your account on the web.
>>
>> [ACM]
>>
>> Good, that's a nice SMS-based work-around for HTTP Re-direct.
>> There are customers with no-SMS service, like laptops
>> with embedded or USB cellular modems. Got a good idea for them?
>
>
> Ah, that's a use case I hadn't considered. I suppose, since we aren't
> dealing with solutions in this document, explaining that a well-deployed and
> superior solution exists for the majority of mobile data users is a bit out
> of scope. I withdraw my objection to the statement, but would find a mention
> that problem this arises exclusively (or at least primarily) for non-SMS
> customers to be a significant improvement.

Thanks, Adam.  To try to stay neutral in tone and present the facts,
how about the following additional text:

While there are well deployed alternate SMS- based solutions that do
not involve out of specification protocol interception, this is still
an unsolved problem for non-SMS users.


If you have tweaks, please propose them.  I'll put this in the running
version and change if needed.

Thanks,
Kathleen
>
> /a



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 10:29:38 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Adam,

Thanks again for your updates.  Responses inline.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 6:26 PM, Adam Roach  wrote:
> Responses inline; some text elided.
>
> On 2/9/18 8:22 AM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>
>>> =C2=A72.1.2 -- I am surprised that there is so much discussion of field=
s that
>>> are
>>> not generally encrypted in practice (e.g., RTP headers, TCP headers). I=
t
>>> may
>>> be worth distinguishing between session-layer, transport-layer and
>>> network-layer security.
>>>
>>> (I think I mentioned this in my initial review, and saw neither a
>>> response nor a
>>> document change in reaction to it.)
>>
>> As a result of your comments and other similar ones, the introduction
>> text was updated to explain that this document is not limited to TLS
>> and that other end to end encryption protocols are considered in this
>> draft.  The IPsec OS implementations (NULL authentication) resulting
>> from RFC7258 decisions is one example of an increase in encryption
>> deployment and in this case limiting visibility to a 2-tuple.
>> Breaking down what is used in current operations is a way to
>> understand that impact, hence discussions on visibility used from
>> 5-tuples is discussed in the draft.  This section talks about the
>> actual headers used in monitoring, which is at a more detailed level
>> than stating session, transport, or network layer.  So we assumed
>> making this additions satisfied your comment at a more detailed level.
>> Would you like to see the layer in addition to the header accessed or
>> an explanation in one section on what is in each layer?  I'd just like
>> to understand what you are looking for in this comment to make the
>> document read more clearly.
>
>
> I think something very simple in =C2=A72.1.2 that explains that these pro=
blems
> arise when IPsec is used, but not when SRTP or TLS are.

OK and the following was also added per Chris Morrow & Randy Bush
pointing out SPs rarely use packet captures.  I think this text came
in adding packet captures as an edit from enterprise operators and for
some reason, Al and I didn't catch that as an issue.  The current
first paragraph may already address your concern:

Network operators use protocol-dissecting analyzers when responding to
customer problems, to identify the presence of attack traffic, and to
identify root causes of the problem such as misconfiguration. In
limited cases, packet captures may also be used when a customer
approves of access to their packets or provides packet captures close
to the endpoint. The protocol dissection is generally limited to
supporting protocols (e.g., DNS, DHCP), network and transport (e.g.,
IP, TCP), and some higher layer protocols (e.g., RTP, RTCP).
Troubleshooting will move closer to the endpoint with increased
encryption and adjustments in practices to effectively troubleshoot
using a 5-tuple may require education. Packet loss investigations rely
on network and transport layer headers taken at the endpoint. In this
case, captures on intermediate nodes are not reliable as there are far
too many cases of aggregate interfaces and alternate paths in service
provider networks.

We can add the following into the above sentence:
Packet loss investigations, and those where access is limited to a
2-tuple (IPsec tunnel mode), rely on network and transport layer
headers taken at the endpoints.

>
>> In the last revision, we tried to add in (where it made sense) if a
>> 2-tuple or 5-tuple was enough throughout the document, so that's
>> pretty much the same thing, but I thought was a bit more precise.
>
>
> Right; I saw that elsewhere, and thought it was a very good addition.

Good, you'll notice a few more places this was added to clarify
further in the current revision.

>
>> Or
>> are you just asking for a discussion within this section in
>> particular?  Thanks!
>
>
> I think the relevant paragraph is this one:
>
>    When increased encryption is used, operators lose a source of data
>    that may be used to debug user issues.  Because of this, application
>    server operators using increased encryption might be called upon more
>    frequently to assist with debugging and troubleshooting, and thus may
>    want to consider what tools can be put in the hands of their clients
>    or network operators.
>
>
> Perhaps something like:
>
>    When increased encryption is used, operators may lose a source of data
> that
>    can be used to debug user issues, if the encrypted data has diagnostic
>    value. For example, IPsec obscures TCP and RTP header information, whi=
le
>    TLS and SRTP do not.  Because of this, application server operators us=
ing
>    certain types of encryption might be called upon more frequently to
> assist with
>    debugging and troubleshooting, and thus may want to consider what tool=
s
> can
>    be put in the hands of their clients or network operators.
>
> I'm sure you can wordsmith that into something more elegant, but that's t=
he
> general thrust of my comment. In particular, I don't want readers to na=
=C3=AFvely
> take away that increased encryption necessarily prevents all of the
> techniques described in this section. SRTP in particular was specifically
> engineered so that the headers were available in cleartext for operationa=
l
> purposes (e.g., header compression), and I think it's a bit of a disservi=
ce
> to that design in this context not to acknowledge that such operational
> considerations were made.

Thanks, I think you'll appreciate the other updates as well, I did.
>
>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>
>>> =C2=A72.2.3 -- This section reads like a set of unfinished "notes to se=
lf" for
>>> the
>>> authors' later use. Minimally, I would suggest restructuring the senten=
ce
>>> fragments in this section into sentences. I will also note that section=
 2
>>> indicates that the following sections will discuss both (a) purpose of
>>> the
>>> technique, and (b) fields used to achieve this purpose. This section
>>> appears
>>> to lack the latter.
>>>
>> We'll fix the sentences, the section looks bad and I'm sorry we
>> somehow didn't catch that. We've been hesitant to make additional
>> changes over what's been requested by reviewers/ADs as it seems to
>> invite more comments, so that may be part of why it wasn't fixed
>> previously.
>>
>> How about the following:
>> "For User Plane Congestion Management (3GPP UPCON) the ability to
>> understand content and manage networks during periods of congestion is
>> th efocus of this work item. Mitigating techniques such as deferred
>> download, off-peak acceleration, and outbound roamers are a few
>> examples of the areas explored in the associated 3GPP documents
>> describing the issues, data utilized in managing congestion, and
>> policy recommendations."
>>
>> Unfortunately, the document relied on contributions and if they didn't
>> come in, we weren't able to make assumptions of what was used as
>> editors.
>
>
> s/th efocus/the focus/ -- it otherwise reads fine.

Done, thanks.
>
> However, without indicating the fields used to perform this task, this
> section is unactionable. What we know is that encrypting *something* caus=
es
> issues, but we're left guessing what that thing is -- and even more in th=
e
> dark about what might possibly replace it. In this case, I think input ne=
eds
> to be solicited from someone knowledgeable in these techniques so that th=
e
> section can be completed. If we can't find that, then I propose removing =
the
> section: being unactionable, it adds nothing to the document but length.

Hmm, is the pointer to the work items that go into this enough?
http://www.3gpp.org/DynaReport/FeatureOrStudyItemFile-570029.htm

I just added that and had been using the link, but the reference wasn't the=
re.

>
>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>
>>> =C2=A72.2.5:
>>>
>>>>    The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/
>>>>    Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS) - trusted edge proxies facilitate
>>>>    delivering same stream to different users, using either unicast or
>>>>    multicast depending on channel conditions to the user.
>>>
>>> This passage also reads like outline notes rather than a finished
>>> document.
>>
>> How about the following:
>> The Enhanced Multimedia Broadcast/Multicast Services (3GPP eMBMS)
>> utilizes trusted edge proxies to facilitate delivering the same stream
>> to different users, using either unicast or multicast depending on
>> channel conditions to the user.
>>
>
> Looks good to me. I'll respond to Al's email separately. Thanks!

Thank you!

>
> /a
>
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


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To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Mark Nottingham 
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: <97a73100-602c-cf86-2854-1a3811963d7a@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:03:18 +0100
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From: Eliot Lear 
To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Mark Nottingham 
Message-ID: <97a73100-602c-cf86-2854-1a3811963d7a@cisco.com>
Subject: draft-ietf-opsawg-mud

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All,

Mark Nottingham and I had some extensive conversations about how to
handle the MUD URL.=C2=A0 The issue is was that Mark identified a potenti=
al
violation of a best practice in the way the URL was structured.=C2=A0 The=

principles I seek to maintain are these:

  * The base MUD URL is formed solely by the Thing
  * It may be necessary in the future for the MUD controller to provide
    additional information to the MUD file server.
  * How that happens can be decided in the future, but we should be
    conservative in our approach to leave options opened.

Therefore, the result of the discussions is that we should permit a
normal HTTPS URI as a MUD URL, with all the associated semantics, with
the exception that queries for now will not be allowed.

At the same time, as we build out future work, we will hold discussions
with the Web/HTTP folk on the best way to proceed.=C2=A0 There are at lea=
st
two ways to tackle this in the future: an HTTP header, or some limited
use of the query component.=C2=A0 We needn't decide any of that today.

Is this okay with you?

Eliot


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All,

    
Mark Nottingham and I had some extensive conversations about how
      to handle the MUD URL.=C2=A0 The issue is was that Mark identified =
a
      potential violation of a best practice in the way the URL was
      structured.=C2=A0 The principles I seek to maintain are these:

    
    
      
  • The base MUD URL is formed solely by the Thing
    • 
      
  • It may be necessary in the future for the MUD controller to
        provide additional information to the MUD file server.
    • 
      
  • How that happens can be decided in the future, but we should
        be conservative in our approach to leave options opened.
    • 
    

    
Therefore, the result of the discussions is that we should permit
      a normal HTTPS URI as a MUD URL, with all the associated
      semantics, with the exception that queries for now will not be
      allowed.

    
At the same time, as we build out future work, we will hold
      discussions with the Web/HTTP folk on the best way to proceed.=C2=A0=

      There are at least two ways to tackle this in the future: an HTTP
      header, or some limited use of the query component.=C2=A0 We needn'=
t
      decide any of that today.

    
Is this okay with you?

    
Eliot

    

  


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To: Eliot Lear , "opsawg@ietf.org" , Mark Nottingham 
References: <97a73100-602c-cf86-2854-1a3811963d7a@cisco.com>
From: Joe Clarke 
Organization: Cisco
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Speaking as a contributor...

On 2/19/18 05:03, Eliot Lear wrote:
> All,
> 
> Mark Nottingham and I had some extensive conversations about how
> to handle the MUD URL.  The issue is was that Mark identified a
> potential violation of a best practice in the way the URL was
> structured.  The principles I seek to maintain are these:
> 
> * The base MUD URL is formed solely by the Thing

_Formed by_, but relies on the URL pointing to something in the manuf.
world.  Meaning, the Thing doesn't just make this up, which is how it
initially read to me.

> * It may be necessary in the future for the MUD controller to
> provide additional information to the MUD file server. * How that
> happens can be decided in the future, but we should be conservative
> in our approach to leave options opened.

This sounds reasonable.

> 
> Therefore, the result of the discussions is that we should permit
> a normal HTTPS URI as a MUD URL, with all the associated semantics,
> with the exception that queries for now will not be allowed.
> 
> At the same time, as we build out future work, we will hold
> discussions with the Web/HTTP folk on the best way to proceed.
> There are at least two ways to tackle this in the future: an HTTP
> header, or some limited use of the query component.  We needn't
> decide any of that today.
> 
> Is this okay with you?

Yes.  It is good to be careful as to ensure a strong standard.  But...

Speaking as a co-chair...

Is this a case of perfect being the enemy of good?  I know of some
people working to implement this.  I don't think they are all on this
list.  Have you run this by them to see if this limits any use cases
out of the box?  It wouldn't make sense to put something out that
wouldn't be implemented (i.e., implementors all need that future work
to happen first).

Joe
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From nobody Mon Feb 19 07:40:19 2018
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : The TACACS+ Protocol
        Authors         : Thorsten Dahm
                          Andrej Ota
                          Douglas C. Medway Gash
                          David Carrel
                          Lol Grant
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-08.txt
	Pages           : 43
	Date            : 2018-02-19

Abstract:
   TACACS+ provides Device Administration for routers, network access
   servers and other networked computing devices via one or more
   centralized servers.  This document describes the protocol that is
   used by TACACS+.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-08
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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To: Joe Clarke , "opsawg@ietf.org" , Mark Nottingham 
References: <97a73100-602c-cf86-2854-1a3811963d7a@cisco.com> 
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: <5f9f12e5-4415-55d0-79e5-4e5c39c9446c@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 17:38:59 +0100
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 Mark Nottingham 
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On 19.02.18 16:30, Joe Clarke wrote:
> Speaking as a contributor...
>
> On 2/19/18 05:03, Eliot Lear wrote:
> > All,
>
> > Mark Nottingham and I had some extensive conversations about how
> > to handle the MUD URL.=C2=A0 The issue is was that Mark identified a
> > potential violation of a best practice in the way the URL was
> > structured.=C2=A0 The principles I seek to maintain are these:
>
> > * The base MUD URL is formed solely by the Thing
>
> _Formed by_, but relies on the URL pointing to something in the manuf.
> world.=C2=A0 Meaning, the Thing doesn't just make this up, which is how=
 it
> initially read to me.
>
> > * It may be necessary in the future for the MUD controller to
> > provide additional information to the MUD file server. * How that
> > happens can be decided in the future, but we should be conservative
> > in our approach to leave options opened.
>
> This sounds reasonable.
>
>
> > Therefore, the result of the discussions is that we should permit
> > a normal HTTPS URI as a MUD URL, with all the associated semantics,
> > with the exception that queries for now will not be allowed.
>
> > At the same time, as we build out future work, we will hold
> > discussions with the Web/HTTP folk on the best way to proceed.
> > There are at least two ways to tackle this in the future: an HTTP
> > header, or some limited use of the query component.=C2=A0 We needn't
> > decide any of that today.
>
> > Is this okay with you?
>
> Yes.=C2=A0 It is good to be careful as to ensure a strong standard.=C2=A0=
 But...
>
> Speaking as a co-chair...
>
> Is this a case of perfect being the enemy of good?=C2=A0 I know of some=

> people working to implement this.=C2=A0 I don't think they are all on t=
his
> list.=C2=A0 Have you run this by them to see if this limits any use cas=
es
> out of the box?

I have.=C2=A0 I think they're okay with it.=C2=A0 They would have been be=
tter with
it if we had resolved this a year ago but one doesn't get everything one
wants.=C2=A0 They DO expect us to hold discussions with the apps folks so=
 we
can get on to the next thing.

Eliot

> It wouldn't make sense to put something out that
> wouldn't be implemented (i.e., implementors all need that future work
> to happen first).
>
> Joe
>


--------------8EB4848EDBFF9A28EFFE3858
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  
    
  
  
    

    

    On 19.02.18 16:30, Joe Clarke wrote:

    
Speaking as a contributor...

      

      On 2/19/18 05:03, Eliot Lear wrote:

      > All,

      

      > Mark Nottingham and I had some extensive conversations about
      how

      > to handle the MUD URL.=C2=A0 The issue is was that Mark identi=
fied
      a

      > potential violation of a best practice in the way the URL was<=
br>
      > structured.=C2=A0 The principles I seek to maintain are these:=


      

      > * The base MUD URL is formed solely by the Thing

      

      _Formed by_, but relies on the URL pointing to something in the
      manuf.

      world.=C2=A0 Meaning, the Thing doesn't just make this up, which is=
 how
      it

      initially read to me.

      

      > * It may be necessary in the future for the MUD controller to<=
br>
      > provide additional information to the MUD file server. * How
      that

      > happens can be decided in the future, but we should be
      conservative

      > in our approach to leave options opened.

      

      This sounds reasonable.

      

      

      > Therefore, the result of the discussions is that we should
      permit

      > a normal HTTPS URI as a MUD URL, with all the associated
      semantics,

      > with the exception that queries for now will not be allowed.
      

      > At the same time, as we build out future work, we will hold
      > discussions with the Web/HTTP folk on the best way to
      proceed.

      > There are at least two ways to tackle this in the future: an
      HTTP

      > header, or some limited use of the query component.=C2=A0 We
      needn't

      > decide any of that today.

      

      > Is this okay with you?

      

      Yes.=C2=A0 It is good to be careful as to ensure a strong standard.=
=C2=A0
      But...

      

      Speaking as a co-chair...

      

      Is this a case of perfect being the enemy of good?=C2=A0 I know of =
some

      people working to implement this.=C2=A0 I don't think they are all =
on
      this

      list.=C2=A0 Have you run this by them to see if this limits any use=

      cases

      out of the box? 

    

    

    I have.=C2=A0 I think they're okay with it.=C2=A0 They would have bee=
n better
    with it if we had resolved this a year ago but one doesn't get
    everything one wants.=C2=A0 They DO expect us to hold discussions wit=
h
    the apps folks so we can get on to the next thing.

    

    Eliot

    

    
 It wouldn't make sense to put something ou=
t
      that

      wouldn't be implemented (i.e., implementors all need that future
      work

      to happen first).

      

      Joe

    

    &=
gt;


    

  


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Op 19-02-18 om 17:38 schreef Eliot Lear:

>> I know of some
>> people working to implement this.=C2=A0 I don't think they are all on =
this
>> list.=C2=A0 Have you run this by them to see if this limits any use ca=
ses
>> out of the box?
>=20
> I have.=C2=A0 I think they're okay with it. =20
Anyone knows if these implementations-in-the-making are to be admired as =

open source somewhere on-line?

--
Marco


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From: Eliot Lear 
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 <5f9f12e5-4415-55d0-79e5-4e5c39c9446c@cisco.com>
 
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Yes, but they're not quite ready for release (I know of at least two).=C2=
=A0
I think they're waiting for this doc to get finished.


On 19.02.18 19:07, Marco Davids (SIDN) wrote:
> Op 19-02-18 om 17:38 schreef Eliot Lear:
>
>>> I know of some
>>> people working to implement this.=C2=A0 I don't think they are all on=
 this
>>> list.=C2=A0 Have you run this by them to see if this limits any use c=
ases
>>> out of the box?
>>
>> I have.=C2=A0 I think they're okay with it.=C2=A0=20
> Anyone knows if these implementations-in-the-making are to be admired
> as open source somewhere on-line?
>
> --=20
> Marco
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


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Yes, but they're not quite ready for release (I know of at least
      two).=C2=A0 I think they're waiting for this doc to get finished.
    

    

    
On 19.02.18 19:07, Marco Davids (SIDN)=

      wrote:

    

    
Op
      19-02-18 om 17:38 schreef Eliot Lear:
      

      

      

        
I know of some
          

          people working to implement this.=C2=A0 I don't think they are =
all
          on this
          

          list.=C2=A0 Have you run this by them to see if this limits any=
 use
          cases
          

          out of the box?
          

        

        

        I have.=C2=A0 I think they're okay with it.=C2=A0 

      Anyone knows if these implementations-in-the-making are to be
      admired as open source somewhere on-line?
      

      

      --
      

      Marco
      

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
OPSAWG mailing list
OPS=
AWG@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


    

    

  


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A new version (-21) has been submitted for draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-21.txt


The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/

Diff from previous version:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-21

Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the diff is available at tools.ietf.org.

IETF Secretariat.


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:11:49 -0500
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To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Eric,

Thanks for your feedback, responses are inline.

FYI - I posted another version, but expect at least one more iteration
after this version with additional comments and the ones we haven't
gotten to yet.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:04 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have completely re-reviewed the latest version. First, I want to
> thank you for toning down some of the material that I was concerned
> about.
>
> Unfortunately, the fundamental concern that motivated my DISCUSS
> remains: I do not believe that this document matches the consensus
> of the IETF community.
>
> Specifically, this document takes at face value a large number of
> claims about the necessity/value of certain practices that either are
> controversial within the IETF or that there is, I believe, rough
> consensus to be actively bad, and that in many cases, encryption is
> specifically designed to prevent. I have noted a number of these
> below, but I do not believe that this is an exhaustive list (going
> through my previous DISCUSS, I see that I noted a number of these but
> that still appear to be unaddressed.)

In the previous round of IESG reviews, the IESG concluded that framing
upfront was the preferred approach to make it clear that not all cited
practices are ones the IETF consider valid.  This was done in the
updated introduction.

Please respond to the discussion points as I believe your additional
points have been addressed to also make these points again in the
document.  In a couple of places, we have questions to make sure your
concern is understood.

>
>
> DISCUSS
>    session encryption that deployed more easily instead of no
>    encryption.
>
> I think I understand what you are saying here, but the term
> "breakable" seems very unfortunate, especially in the context of this
> document. The only such shift I am aware of that has received
> acceptance in IETF is one from always requiring fully authenticated
> encryption to allowing unauthenticated encryption, which you document
> in the next paragraph. I recognize that there are other perspectives
> (e.g., those in draft-rhrd) but those are pretty far from IETF
> consenus. Accordingly, I think you should remove this sentence.

Opportunistic security was well discussed, so that was likely top of
mind for you when reading this draft. However there are other areas
where the IETF decided breakable encryption was better than none in
recent years.  Another adopted and published example is in the mail
community.  Deprecating MD5 was deemed to be too hard because of
support in a particular library.  We had lengthy discussions about
this for RFC7627 (see sect 6.2) and related drafts, now published
RFCs.

This sentence had nothing to do with the drafts that are not WG drafts
in the TLS WG, but real use cases of published RFCs where deprecated
crypto is still accepted despite efforts to correct that in addition
to the acceptance of the OS approach in multiple session encryption
protocols.  The support tools and use cases don't always drive the
best solution where we have strong crypto everywhere as you have also
noted on recent draft reviews, now published RFCs.

>
>
>    motivation outside of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are
>    driving end-to-end encryption for these content providers.
>
> This section seems kind of confusing, at least as applied to
> HTTP. There are three kinds of cache in HTTP:
>
> - Reverse proxy caches (the kind CDNs run)
> - Explicit forward proxy caches
> - "Transparent" intercepting caches
>
> The first of these move to HTTPS just fine and that's typically how
> CDNs do it.  Explicit forward proxy caches are largely going away, but
> part of the point of this kind of end-to-end encryption is to hide
> data from those caches.

Sure, that point was made in the draft and cleared up a little further
from Benjamin K's review.  The business risk associated with not
controlling your content was more explicitly stated for CDNs who have
moved to an e2e approach.

Here's the updated sentence:
   The business risk of losing control of content is a motivation outside
   of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are driving end-to-end
   encryption for these content providers.

> Transparent intercepting caches that the user
> didn't opt into are a bad thing, so having them go away is a positive.

The text says authorized parties, so this is referring to caches where
there is an agreement in place for this usage.  CDN's that wish to
block this behavior have the option to require e2e.  That trend alone
may be enough to kill this type of service offering.  I don't see why
it shouldn't be mentioned in terms of it's current use.  What change
are you looking to see here?

>
>    document existing practices, the development of IETF protocols
>    follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804].
>
> This is pretty opaque in this context. It should explicitly state that
> the IETF's position is that we do not engineer for these use cases,
> not just to cite the RFCs.

We can add the following (or suggest something else):

"and explicitly do not support tools and methods that could be used
for wiretapping and censorship."

>
>
>    based billing, or for other reasons, possibly considered
>    inappropriate by some.  See RFC7754 [RFC7754] for a survey of
>    Internet filtering techniques and motivations.  This section is
>
> I don't think this accurately represents the RFC, which makes clear
> that the IAB consensus is that filtering is bad:
>
> " From a technical perspective, there are no perfect or even good
> solutions -- there is only least bad.  On that front, we posit that a
> hybrid approach that combines endpoint-based filtering with network
> filtering may prove least damaging.  An endpoint may choose to
> participate in a filtering regime in exchange for the network
> providing broader unfiltered access."

I've added the following to the end of the sentence as the RFC is too
long to repeat what is already in 7754:

   "and the IAB consensus on those mechanisms."

But I'll note that this cherry picks one part of the conclusion
section of 7754 and even this text acknowledges that some network
filtering is needed in the suggested hybrid approach.

The first paragraph of this section says:
  "Filtering will continue to occur on the Internet. We conclude that,
   whenever possible, filtering should be done on the endpoint.
   Cooperative endpoints are most likely to have sufficient contextual
   knowledge to effectively target blocking; hence, such blocking
   minimizes unintended consequences.  It is realistic to expect that at
   times filtering will not be done on the endpoints.  In these cases,
   promptly informing the endpoint that blocking has occurred provides
   necessary transparency to redress any errors, particularly as they
   relate to any collateral damage introduced by errant filters."

This text does not say it is bad, it says that it should occur when
possible on the endpoint and that in cases where it is not possible,
the end points should be notified of this filtering.  That's different
from saying filtering is bad as there are a number of cases why the
IAB agreed on a hybrid approach.

DDoS mitigation requires the use of SP filtering to be effective.
This is a clear example of where filtering must be done on the network
and is very important and hard to argue that it isn't good.  You may
have to step back toward the source of the traffic, iteratively
setting up filters to block traffic through cooperation of SPs until
you get close to the source.

Filtering recommended in BCP38 certainly has had a positive impact.

SPs also use filtering to protect their own infrastructure.

This was just a quick response, I am sure there are other good
examples that supported the hybrid recommendation.

>
>
>    detect or prevent attacks as well as to guarantee service level
>    expectations.  In some cases, alternate options are available when
>    encryption is in use, but techniques like that of data leakage
>
> These certainly are use cases, but you really need to acknowledge that
> it's also a form of user surveillance.
>

This is referring to corporate networks.  The rules are a bit
different since you get a paycheck and agree to monitoring, sign an
acknowledgement as an employee then operate on their equipment and
network.

To help make this point more clear, I've added text into section 4.1,
let us know if this does not address your concern:

OLD:
Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and
network infrastructure that provide critical business services to
their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for
all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of
experience for all user sessions. These responsibilities break down
into three basic areas:

NEW:
Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and
network infrastructure that provide critical business services to
their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for
all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of
experience for all user sessions. Users typically sign agreements
acknowledging that they are subject to monitoring while operating on
corporate networks. Subsections of 4. Encryption for Enterprises may
discuss techniques that access data beyond the data-link, network, and
transport level headers typically used in SP networks since the
corporate enterprise owns the data. These responsibilities break down
into three basic areas:

This was one of the reasons why we felt it was important to keep
section 4 separate.

>
>    Some DLP tools intercept traffic at the Internet gateway or proxy
>    services with the ability to man-in-the-middle (MiTM) encrypted
>    session traffic (HTTP/TLS).  These tools may use key words important
>    to the enterprise including business sensitive information such as
>    trade secrets, financial data, personally identifiable information
>    (PII), or personal health information (PHI).  Various techniques are
>    used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and other purposes, and
>    are described in "Summarizing Known Attacks on TLS and DTLS"
>    [RFC7457].
>
> As far as I know, the MITM techniques used by middleboxes are not
> described in 7457.

The use of an RSA static key is discussed in terms of the danger of
using this approach in Section 2.8. I updated the text slightly to
make this point more clear and added the section reference:

Various techniques are used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and
other purposes, and can be misused as described in "Summarizing Known
Attacks on TLS and DTLS [RFC7457] Section 2.8.

>
> You also need to cover the fact that these MITM are a threat to user
> security because they are often so badly implemented.

I think 7457 does a good job of that.  Let us know if you have
proposed text if the above fix isn't enough for you coupled with this
being in the Enterprise section.

>
>
> S 5.4.
> It's pretty odd to talk about phishing without acknowledging that by
> far the largest anti-phishing platform (Safe Browsing) operates in the
> client, not be network interception.

We responded on this previously pointing out that this is mentioned in
section 5.3 on phishing.  Here's the text:

   Administrators might also add URLs contained in
   messages to block lists locally or this may also be done by browser
   vendors through larger scales efforts like that of the Anti-Phishing
   Working Group (APWG).  See the Coordinating Attack Response at
   Internet Scale (CARIS) workshop Report [RFC8073] for additional
   information and pointers to the APWG's efforts on anti- phishing.

The CARIS report goes a bit deeper as well.  The approach is broader
than just the browser vendors and that should be acknowledged.
Cooperation of many other players is involved in updating the block
lists and working with law enforcement to take down the offending
sites.  Safe Browsing is just one piece of the larger puzzle and the
browser block lists are already mentioned.

>
>
>     The transport header encryption prevents trusted transit proxies.  It
>    may be that the benefits of such proxies could be achieved by end to
>
> You don't define a "trusted transit proxy" so I don't know what this
> means, and whether they provide any benefit, but this certainly sounds
> euphemistic. Generally, "trusted" is not an adjective we associate
> with network proxies operated by third parties.

We added a little more text on this per Benjamin's comment.  I'm
including the full text of the paragraph so this is not taken out of
context as endorsing such mechanisms as the text goes on to say other
ways it could be addressed in an encrypted Internet.  Here is the
text.

     Transport header encryption prevents the use of transit proxies
     in center of the network and the use of some edge proxies by preventing
     the proxies from taking action on the stream. It may be that the benefits
     of such proxies could be achieved by end-to-end client and server
     optimizations, distribution using CDNs, plus the ability to continue
     connections across different access technologies (across dynamic
     user IP addresses).

>
>
>    In the best case scenario, engineers and other innovators would work
>    to solve the problems at hand in new ways rather than prevent the use
>    of encryption.  As stated in [RFC7258], "an appropriate balance
>    (between network management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time
>    as real instances of this tension are considered."
>
> Much of the context of this debate is about whether operators not
> being able to do the things in this document is a problem, and this
> seems to presume the answer.

Section 8 has been overhauled in response to Deborah's comments. I see
what you mean in the wording and that was not intended. The goal of
the draft is to help improve adoption by talking about the issues and
bringing them to the surface for discussion (tough discussions that
need to happen).  Here is the current text.

"As stated in [RFC7258] an appropriate balance (between network
management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time as real instances
of this tension are considered." Numerous operators made it clear in
their response to this document that they fully support strong
encryption and providing privacy for end users, this is a common goal.
Operators recognize not all the practices documented need to be
supported going forward, either because of the risk to end user
privacy or alternate technologies and tools have already emerged. This
document is intended to support network engineers and other innovators
to work toward solving network and security management problems with
protocol designers and application developers in new ways that
facilitate adoption of strong encryption rather than preventing the
use of encryption. By having the discussions on network and security
management practices with application developers and protocol
designers, each side of the debate can understand each others goals,
work toward alternate solutions, and disband with practices that
should no longer be supported. A goal of this document is to assist
the IETF to understand some of the current practices so as to identify
new work items for IETF-related use cases which can help facilitate
the adoption of strong session encryption and support network and
security management."

>
>
>    This optimization at network edges measurably improves real-time
>    transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks with large
>
> Do you have a citation for this claim?

The draft that this text refers to in the previous paragraph has a
section on performance enhancing proxies, section 3.5 and is referred
to right before this text. David Dolson was the contributor.

>
>
>    Web proxies are sometimes used to filter traffic, allowing only
>    access to well-known sites found to be legitimate and free of malware
>    on last check by a proxy service company.  This type of restriction
>    is usually not noticeable in a corporate setting as the typical
>    corporate user does not access sites that are not well-known to these
>    tools, but may be noticeable to those in research who are unable to
>    access colleague's individual sites or new web sites that have not
>    yet been screened.  In situations where new sites are required for
>    access, they can typically be added after notification by the user or
>    proxy log alerts and review.  Home mail account access may be blocked
>    in corporate settings to prevent another vector for malware to enter
>    as well as for intellectual property to leak out of the network.
>    This method remains functional with increased use of encryption and
>    may be more effective at preventing malware from entering the
>    network.  Web proxy solutions monitor and potentially restrict access
>    based on the destination URL or the DNS name.  A complete URL may be
>    used in cases where access restrictions vary for content on a
>    particular site or for the sites hosted on a particular server.
>
> If you are filtering on URL and there is HTTPS involved, then you are
> a MITM, and this is potentially noticeable to end-users. We encounter
> this regularly when MITM proxies make mistakes in getting into our
> trust anchor store.

This is in the enterprise section where monitoring is accepted by end
users.  What is your proposal here?  I don't see an issue with
describing this usage.  Are you okay with this text since you also see
this as an issue and perhaps it needs more discussion?

>
>
> Re: 0-rating.
>    user.  This feature is impacted if encryption hides the details of
>    the content domain from the network.
>
> Well, maybe. Facebook's zero rating, for instance, is IP-based.
> https://info.internet.org/en/blog/2015/09/24/enhancing-security-and-privacy-of-free-basics/

It seems the providers or applications offering 0-rating all operate
differently.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/02/verizons-mobile-video-wont-count-against-data-caps-but-netflix-will/

I had more of an issue with the word feature here, so I believe I
addressed your comment and my concern with the following:

     For some implementations, zero rating is impacted if encryption
     hides the details of the content domain from the network.

>
> S 2.2.2.
> The presentation here seems biased given that it does not acknowledge
> that one of the reasons that ISPs do traffic class discrimination is
> to prioritize favored rather than disfavored traffic, regardless of
> user preferences. I don't believe that the IETF has taken a position
> for net neutrality, but I'm also pretty sure we don't have consensus
> against it.

How about the following text:
This section does not consider traffic discrimination by service
providers related to NetNeutrality, where traffic may be favored
according to the service provider preference as opposed to the user's
preference. These use cases are considered out-of-scope for this
document as controversial practices.

>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy of Internet users is
>    of serious concern to both the user and the operator communities.
> are of serious concern

Thanks.
>
>    Traditional network management, planning, security operations, and
>    performance optimization have been developed in an Internet where a
>    large majority of data traffic flows without encryption.  While
> you have a plural/singular mismatch here.
>
>    Authentication with IPsec [RFC7619] and there are a number of
>    infrastructure use cases such as server to server encryption, where
>    this mode is deployed.  While OS is helpful in reducing pervassive
> Nit, no comma before "where"

Done, thanks.
>
>    recommendations from these documents were were built upon for TLS 1.3
>    to provide a more inherently secure end-to-end protocol.
> "were were"

Already fixed, thanks.
>
>    to-user content encryption schemes, such as S/MIME and PGP for email
>    and encryption (e.g.  Off-the-Record (OTR)) for XMPP are used by
>    those interested to protect their data as it crosses intermediary
> Not, "e.g.,"

Fixed, thanks.
>
>    been impacted by increases in encrypted traffic.  Only methods
>    keeping with the goal of balancing network management and PM
>    mitigation in [RFC7258] should be considered in solution work
>    resulting from this document.
> I don't understand what the normative content of this was.

There is no normative content.  Are you asking because the lowercase
should was used?

>
>    upgrades before user experience declines.  For example, findings of
>    loss and jitter in VoIP traffic can be a predictor of future customer
>    dissatisfaction (supported by metadata from the RTP/RTCP protocol )
>    [RFC3550], or increases in DNS response time can generally make
>    interactive web browsing appear sluggish.  But to detect such
>    problems, the application or service stream must first be
>    distinguished from others.
>
> This is a little hard to read, but generally this information is not
> encrypted for SRTP/SRTCP.

In looking at the text, the Secure version of RTP/RTCP isn't mentioned
and isn't cited as an issue.  The text (from Dave Dolson, we think)
seems to say that any form of security that obscures the application
or service info of the stream complicates analysis as VoIP, or
analysis as .

If this isn't clear enough, would you like to propose text?

>
>    When using increased encryption, operators lose a source of data that
>    may be used to debug user issues.  Because of this, application
>    server operators using increased encryption might be called upon more
>    frequently to assist with debugging and troubleshooting, and thus may
>    want to consider what tools can be put in the hands of their clients
>    or network operators.
>
> This is phrased as hypothetical, but is there any actual data to
> support this? We have a lot of experience now with encrypted voice and
> video as well as Web. Do those providers report any increased level of requests.

This makes perfect sense.  If you are troubleshooting and the data is
not available at the endpoint, the network is used.  If that goes
away, logging and reporting at the endpoint has to improve.  If you
take a look at the feedback from the OPsDir review, it had several
specific types of log improvements added into a paragraph early into
the document.  I added a few more to that from other comments.

In my operational experience as well as work with customers at EMC,
I've heard this comment as well and it was addressed.  This is part of
why the increase in encryption with storage platforms is not a big hit
- tools were provided at the endpoint to fill the gap.

>
>    the new flow and would not be able to route it back to the original
>    POP.
>
> I'm having a little trouble understanding this paragraph. Why is this
> about mobile operators? It seems like it's an issue for anyone who has
> a service that might have mobile clients.

If you mean laptops/IP based devices on WiFi access, this works
differently at the routing layer than with cellular mobile phones.
Phones need to be able to transition seamlessly with migrations
(coordinated roaming).  Other devices, like laptops on WiFi access,
might need this type of transition within a wireless managed
environment, but this is with APs that don't typically attempt to
preserve connection state. When IP based devices on WiFi access have
traffic traversing POPs, it's at the IP layer and the applications
handle continuity.  The key difference between WiFi and cellular is
maintaining connection state.

>
>    effective at providing data offload when there is a network element
>    close to the receiver that has access to see all the content.
> This section is also confusing in that it fails to distinguish between proxies
> of this type that the user opts into from transparent proxies that just do this
> service without the user's consent. Part of the purpose of encryption is to
> preclude that.

This reads to me as if these are transparent proxies, so I'll add that
in to clarify the text further.  Thanks.

>
>    created from the intercepting device to the client's destination,
>    this is an opt-in strategy for the client.  Changes to TLSv1.3 do not
>    impact this more invasive method of interception, where this has the
> I don't understand the cite to TLS 1.3 here. None of this is presently affected
> by 1.3.

This is saying that changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more
invasive method of interception explicitly, so I believe the text
already addresses your point.  If not, could you please suggest text?

>
>    endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to offer parental
>    control.
> This section makes it seem like there are no other methods that allow for
> parental control, but that's not true. There are parental control mechanisms
> which rely on MITM proxies or application interfacing.

The section NOW starts off with the following in the first paragraph
that should address your concern:

    This section is intended to document a selection of current
    content blocking practices...

I think this came from Benjamin's review - the section is not
exhaustive (neither is the draft as it was contribution driven).

This text in the first paragraph should also help with your point:
    Content blocking may also happen at endpoints or at the edge
    of enterprise networks, but those are not addressed in this section.

At the edge is a proxy/gateway MiTM solution.

The next paragraph talks about proxies in the core or edge of a
network, these are also MiTM devices, so I think that's well covered.

The following sentence in this section calls this out as MiTM behavior
explicitly:

    Changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more invasive method of
     interception, that has the potential to expose every HTTPS
     session to an active man in the middle (MitM).

I ammended the following sentence in the last paragraph in case that helps you:

OLD:
This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint.

NEW:
This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint or as a
proxy service.

>
>    HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this prevents mobile carriers
>    from intercepting the traffic and performing an HTTP redirect.  As a
>    result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
> Yes, stopping traffic redirection is actually one of the major design purposes
> of HTTPS.

Sure, there's not an issue other than the practice needs to change and
they need to figure out better ways to notify customers.  It's raised
here in case better ideas can be developed and some operator may look
at the reference (RFC6108).  Adam and Al were chatting on this as a
result of his review, so hopefully they make a little progress.

I added the word appropriately as I think that will address your
concern.  The operators just want efficient ways to notify their
customers, it doesn't have to be done this way, but they raised the
issue because they don't know what to do and I believe, want help.

NEW:
When the HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this appropriately
prevents mobile carriers from intercepting the traffic and performing
an HTTP redirect.

>
>    to the customer and additional overhead to the mobile network service
>    provider.
> This section is basically a commercial for this practice. It needs to
> acknowledge that it's actually much closer to IETF consensus that it's a bad
> practice.

This text was already changed as follows:

     The customer may need to call customer care to find out the
     reason and/or resolve the issue, possibly extending the time
     needed to restore their network access.
>
>    headers to accomplish the, sometimes considered controversial,
>    functions above.
> Again, this is precisely the form of attack that HTTPS is intended to prevent.

The following paragraph was added per conversations with Christian and
Martin.  Hopefully, this also addreses your concern.  The paragraph
mentioned was amended as well.

NEW:
    Guidance from the Internet Architecture Board has been provided
     in [RFC8165] on Design Considerations for Metadata Insertion.
     The guidance asserts that designs that share metadata only by
     explicit actions at the host are preferable to designs in which
     middleboxes insert metadata. Alternate notification methods that
     follow this and other guidance would be helpful to mobile carriers.

>
>    perform SSL/TLS decryption are impacted by the increased use of
>    encryption that prevents interception.
> I don't really understand what this text means. What is "use of encryption that
> prevents interception" in the context of tools which already do decryption?

This reads clear enough to me, but would you be happier with:

s/impacted/no longer functions/

It's referring to encryption that prevents interception, not talking
about proxies which still can be used technically.  This change has
not been made yet, so please let us know if this helps or if you have
another suggestion.


>
>    [DarkMail].  Of course, SPAM filtering will not be possible on
>    encrypted content.
> This is not strictly correct, as you can still header filter, etc.

It seems a few words were trimmed in what you have quoted above.
Here's the full sentence:

Of course, content-based spam filtering will not be possible on
encrypted content.

I'm not sure what happened there as I don't think this was a recent
fix. The sentence was in context of content-based filtering.

In much earlier versions of this draft, there was mention of efforts
that would encrypt email header information to protect privacy
discussed a couple of years ago (SAAG and a spin off list) - which is
a good thing to do.  If that happens operations are impacted and that
would require discussion to develop new approaches for spam filtering
and other email based attack prevention techniques.

>
>    over the Internet.  Options for monitoring will vary with each
>    encryption approach described below.  In most cases, solution have
>    been identified to provide encryption while ensuring management
> Nit: "solutions have"

Already fixed, thanks.
>
>    allow for multiple end user sessions to share the same TCP
>    connection.  This rasises several points of interest with an
>    increased use of encryption.  TCP session multiplexing should still
> Typos: rasises

Fixed, thanks.
>
>    be possible when TLS or TCPcrypt is in use since the TCP header
>    information is exposed leaving the 5-tuple accessible.  The use TCP
>    session multiplexing of an IP layer encyption, e.g.  IPsec, that only
> I'm not sure if this is correct. What precisely do you mean by "TCP
> session multiplexing"? A cite would be helpful here.

It's described in section 4.1.3.2:

    TCP pipelining/session multiplexing used mainly by
    middleboxes today allows for multiple end user sessions
    to share the same TCP connection.

>
>    center.  HTTP pipelining requires both the client and server to
>    participate; visibilty of packets once encrypted will hide the use of
>    HTTP pipelining for any monitoring that takes place outside of the
> Typo: visibility

Fixed, thanks.
>
>    traffic cannot be intercepted, encouraging alternate options such as
>    performing these functions at the edge.
> I'm not seeing the relevance of this. Who is proposing solutions in which
> encrypted traffic cannot be intercepted at the outgoing network edge.

The only option here for this described usage is a proxy where the TLS
1.3 session is terminated and restarted.  If you look back to slides
from Stephen on PM and advancements resulting from PM being considered
an attack, one of the ideas to make TLS stronger was DANE
authentication to provide a way to know you truly have an e2e session
- a very good thing.  The draft on the last telechat:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-dnssec-chain-extension/
that should be approved soon is able to do this with some middleboxes,
but I'm not sure what happens with a proxy - so I asked the editors
for clarification.  If this just doesn't work and the session proceeds
without this extension, there is nothing to notify on.  If this is
something proxies should be aware of to allow through unhampered, it
would be good to include a little more text.  For instance, in
corporate networks certain traffic with PII, like financial
transactions, are not proxied and would benefit from using this
extension, giving their users assurance in the security of their
sessions.

>
>    owing to concealment of critical headers and payloads.  Many forms of
>    enterprise performance management may be similarly affected.
> Again, this is sort of transparent caching is an anti-pattern, so this document
> ought to acknowledge that,

I added the following text at the end of this paragraph to address your concern:
It should be noted that transparent caching is considered an anti-pattern.

If you have alternate text to suggest, please do!


>
>    parts of the address assignment/management protocols, critical for
>    SAVI mechanisms, can result in a dysfunction of the SAVI mechanisms.
> Does anyone actually deploy SAVI? If not, encryption isn't having much of an
> impact.

It appears to be the case with drafts being published as recent as 2017:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8074

And I'm told it is widely deployed in China.

>
>    network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
>    extension, they may not find one.  The SNI Encryption in TLS Through
>    Tunneling [I-D.ietf-tls-sni-encryption] draft has been adopted by the
> This doesn't really follow. I mean they "may not" but overwhelmingly they will

I'm not sure when the text was changed, but it already has been changed from.

OLD:

   This information is only visible if the client is populating the
   Server Name Indication extension.  This need not be done, but may be
   done as per TLS standard and as stated above this has been
   implemented by all major browsers.  Therefore, even if existing
   network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
   extension, they may not find one.

NEW:
This information is only available if the client populates the Server
Name Indication extension. Doing so is an optional part of the TLS
standard and as stated above this has been implemented by all major
browsers. Due to its optional nature, though, existing network filters
that examine a TLS ClientHello for a SNI extension cannot expect to
always find one.

>
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Joe Clarke 
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Thank you, authors.  Would you send a synopsis of the changes to the
list as well as what you feel is left to do?  It would be good to spur
some more discussion on this.

I read through the text, focusing on the changes, and found a few typos
and nits.

Section 1:

OLD:

The normative description of Legacy features such as ARAP and
outbound authentication have

NEW:

The normative description of Legacy features such as ARAP and
outbound authentication has

===

Section 1:

s/authroization/authorization/

===

Section 3.3

You have one reference to "Single connection Mode".  Why is the 'c'
lowercase here?  For consistency, it should be uppercase.

===

Section 3.4

OLD:

For example, the client try alternative methods, if they are available,

NEW:

For example, the client tries alternative methods, if they are available,

===

Section 3.4

s/implmentation/implementation/

===

Section 3.5

OLD:

.  for example

NEW:

.  For example

===

Section 3.7

OLD:

refer to section section

NEW:

refer to section

===

Section 4.1

You refer to the Unix su(1) command in man page style notation.  This
may not be fully understood by all readers.  I think it would be better
to describe what su does in a short phrase (This is comparable to the
"su" command on Unix, which substitutes the current user's identity with
another).

===

Section 4.4.2.3

s/alays/always/

===

Sections 4.4.2.4 and 4.4.2.5

OLD:

The TACACS+ server must rejects

NEW:

The TACACS+ server must reject

===

Section 4.4.3

s/temrination/termination/

===

Section 4.4.3

You say, "oplease refer to section" (which has a typo).  But I don't
think you need the please at all here.

===

Section 5

s/clients actions/client's actions/

===

Section 5.1

s/corrsponds/corresponds/

===

Section 7.1

Stardate is canonically inconsistent

:-)

===

Section 7.2

Under nohangup, I think you have a typo with "authorization.y."  Not
sure if you intended something else there, or that "y." just crept in.

===

Section 8

s/()such as/(such as/

===

Section 8

s/starts starts/starts/

===

Section 8

s/reuthentication/reauthentication/

===

Section 8

You mention su again, but do so without man page notation.  you also
refer to unix instead of Unix.  Perhaps a good solution is to point to
one of the web=based man page gateways to create a true xref for su.

===

Section 9.1

s/For this reasons/For these reasons/

===

Section 9.2

s/which may me/which may be/

===

Section 9.5

s/apropriate/appropriate/

===

Section 9.5

s/send send secret keys/send secret keys/

Joe




On 2/19/18 10:40, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group WG of the IETF.
> 
>         Title           : The TACACS+ Protocol
>         Authors         : Thorsten Dahm
>                           Andrej Ota
>                           Douglas C. Medway Gash
>                           David Carrel
>                           Lol Grant
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-08.txt
> 	Pages           : 43
> 	Date            : 2018-02-19
> 
> Abstract:
>    TACACS+ provides Device Administration for routers, network access
>    servers and other networked computing devices via one or more
>    centralized servers.  This document describes the protocol that is
>    used by TACACS+.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs/
> 
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-08
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-08
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-08
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> 


From nobody Wed Feb 21 00:27:10 2018
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  A quick review shows that many of my comments have been addressed, =
thanks.  This significantly clarifies the document.

  Some comments are still unaddressed.  And, the Security Considerations =
section contains substantial portions of my text as I pointed out =
earlier, with no acknowledgement that this is the case.

  Alan DeKok.


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Manufacturer Usage Description Specification
        Authors         : Eliot Lear
                          Ralph Droms
                          Dan Romascanu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16.txt
	Pages           : 58
	Date            : 2018-02-21

Abstract:
   This memo specifies a component-based architecture for manufacturer
   usage descriptions (MUD).  The goal of MUD is to provide a means for
   Things to signal to the network what sort of access and network
   functionality they require to properly function.  The initial focus
   is on access control.  Later work can delve into other aspects.

   This memo specifies two YANG modules, IPv4 and IPv6 DHCP options, an
   LLDP TLV, a URL suffix specification, an X.509 certificate extension
   and a means to sign and verify the descriptions.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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Changes as discussedd.


On 21.02.18 12:35, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories.
> This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working=
 Group WG of the IETF.
>
>         Title           : Manufacturer Usage Description Specification
>         Authors         : Eliot Lear
>                           Ralph Droms
>                           Dan Romascanu
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16.txt
> 	Pages           : 58
> 	Date            : 2018-02-21
>
> Abstract:
>    This memo specifies a component-based architecture for manufacturer
>    usage descriptions (MUD).  The goal of MUD is to provide a means for=

>    Things to signal to the network what sort of access and network
>    functionality they require to properly function.  The initial focus
>    is on access control.  Later work can delve into other aspects.
>
>    This memo specifies two YANG modules, IPv4 and IPv6 DHCP options, an=

>    LLDP TLV, a URL suffix specification, an X.509 certificate extension=

>    and a means to sign and verify the descriptions.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi=
ssion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>



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On 2/21/18 06:37, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Changes as discussedd.

Thanks, Eliot.  I'm still seeing what I think is a copy and paste
issue in the main YANG module:

augment "/acl:access-lists/acl:acl/acl:aces/" +
        "acl:ace/acl:matches/acl:l4/acl:tcp" {
       description
         "Adding domain names to matching";
       leaf direction-initiated {
         type direction;
         description
           "This node matches based on which direction a
            connection was initiated. The means by which that
            is determined is discussed in this document.";
       }
     }

In this case, it looks like the description of the augment is a copy
and paste from the acldns module.  It seems that this description
should read:

"Adding direction to matching"

Joe

> 
> 
> On 21.02.18 12:35, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
>> Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the
>> Operations and Management Area Working Group WG of the IETF.
>> 
>> Title           : Manufacturer Usage Description Specification 
>> Authors         : Eliot Lear Ralph Droms Dan Romascanu Filename
>> : draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16.txt Pages           : 58 Date
>> : 2018-02-21
>> 
>> Abstract: This memo specifies a component-based architecture for
>> manufacturer usage descriptions (MUD).  The goal of MUD is to
>> provide a means for Things to signal to the network what sort of
>> access and network functionality they require to properly
>> function.  The initial focus is on access control.  Later work
>> can delve into other aspects.
>> 
>> This memo specifies two YANG modules, IPv4 and IPv6 DHCP options,
>> an LLDP TLV, a URL suffix specification, an X.509 certificate
>> extension and a means to sign and verify the descriptions.
>> 
>> 
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud/
>> 
>> There are also htmlized versions available at: 
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16
>> 
>> A diff from the previous version is available at: 
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-16
>> 
>> 
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
>> tools.ietf.org.
>> 
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: 
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ OPSAWG mailing
>> list OPSAWG@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ OPSAWG mailing
> list OPSAWG@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> 

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Manufacturer Usage Description Specification
        Authors         : Eliot Lear
                          Ralph Droms
                          Dan Romascanu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17.txt
	Pages           : 59
	Date            : 2018-02-21

Abstract:
   This memo specifies a component-based architecture for manufacturer
   usage descriptions (MUD).  The goal of MUD is to provide a means for
   Things to signal to the network what sort of access and network
   functionality they require to properly function.  The initial focus
   is on access control.  Later work can delve into other aspects.

   This memo specifies two YANG modules, IPv4 and IPv6 DHCP options, an
   LLDP TLV, a URL suffix specification, an X.509 certificate extension
   and a means to sign and verify the descriptions.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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This contains one description correction that Joe caught.


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From: 
To: Ralph Droms , Eliot Lear , Dan Romascanu
	
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17.txt
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A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17.txt
has been successfully submitted by Eliot Lear and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-ietf-opsawg-mud
Revision:	17
Title:		Manufacturer Usage Description Specification
Document date:	2018-02-21
Group:		opsawg
Pages:		59
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17

Abstract:
   This memo specifies a component-based architecture for manufacturer
   usage descriptions (MUD).  The goal of MUD is to provide a means for
   Things to signal to the network what sort of access and network
   functionality they require to properly function.  The initial focus
   is on access control.  Later work can delve into other aspects.

   This memo specifies two YANG modules, IPv4 and IPv6 DHCP options, an
   LLDP TLV, a URL suffix specification, an X.509 certificate extension
   and a means to sign and verify the descriptions.

                                                                                  


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From nobody Wed Feb 21 08:38:17 2018
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From: Paolo Lucente 
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 17:37:59 +0100
Cc: "grow@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" ,  opsawg 
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References: 
To: Tianran Zhou 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] [GROW] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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Hi,

With the hat of the developer of a open-source / free IPFIX collector =
(*, **), I would like to express two opposite concerns with regards to =
this draft - loosely related to the very details of the draft itself.

One concern is that this looks a very isolated effort, ie. why =
communities and not as-path? I remember the story of this draft, it =
comes from field needs and that is in short the answer to the =
cherry-picking.

The second concern, the one going the opposite direction than the =
previous one, is that in future it could be tempting for somebody to =
repeat the story of this draft and add support for as-paths and/or other =
BGP attributes in IPFIX: here i see a mix-up among the original intent =
to report on data plane information with the reporting on control-plane =
(BGP) information: in other words, is (potentially) encapsulating (all) =
BGP attributes for every sampled packet/flow a valid idea? For example, =
is not BGP/BMP peering at the IPFIX collector itself much more efficient =
instead of moving control-plane info over and over again? At this propo, =
the motivation that roughly 20 years ago it was decided to make source =
and destination ASNs part of NetFlow v5 (and few years later BGP =
next-hop was added as part of NetFlow v9) is a bit weak, IMO; maybe =
there is more to it, and i=E2=80=99d be happy to hear about it.=20

On the details of the draft itself instead, i reckon the effort to =
support Extended and Large communities (comment from Ignas Bagdonas last =
year); i also followed the discussion with PJ Aitken about =
segmentation/fragmentation of potentially long communities list and i =
seem to reckon there is no good (simple, straightforward) solution to =
address that.

Paolo

(*) http://www.pmacct.net/
(**) https://github.com/pmacct/pmacct

> On 23 Jan 2018, at 02:10, Tianran Zhou  wrote:
>=20
> Dear GROW WG,
>=20
> The OPSAWG started a 2 week WG LC for a BGP related draft:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>=20
> It would be really helpful and appreciated if you can read it.
> Could you please provide comments (if any) and copy to =
opsawg@ietf.org?
>=20
> Cheers,
> Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran =
Zhou
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2018 11:07 AM
> To: opsawg@ietf.org
> Cc: opsawg-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [OPSAWG] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
>=20
> Hi WG,
>=20
> The authors of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community have posted the =
latest drafts to the mailing list, and believe that the document is =
ready for LC.
>=20
> This starts a 2 week WG LC on
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>=20
> Please read the above draft and send any issues, comments, or =
corrections to this mailing list.=20
> All supports and concerns are welcome and helpful for the authors.
>=20
> We are also looking for a document shepherd, best with operator =
background, to help the following procedures. =20
>=20
> The WG LC will close on Feb 1, 2018.
> Authors please indicate whether you are aware of any IPR for the =
draft.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Tianran, as OPSAWG co-chair
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> GROW mailing list
> GROW@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/grow


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To: Joe Clarke , mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Tim Chown 
Cc: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
References: <151785762665.5787.13501700077310392386@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CBF39@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>  <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CC036@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>  <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CC067@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1e73c03e-7dbb-d4de-e268-6e1fba7b33dc@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CC956@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <49bc63df-e746-d945-ba3d-7ea5b38ce921@cisco.com>
From: Benoit Claise 
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:27:23 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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Dear all,

I'm not the responsible AD for draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang but let me 
share my view from a YANG point of view.
Do we really believe that the intended status of Standards Track of 
Experimental will influence whether a YANG module is implemented? This 
module will be implemented if it solves a business issue, full stop. The 
indented status is not even relayed into YANG module. I mean: once 
extracted from the RFC, the YANG module is not flagged as experimental 
because the feature to be managed is experimental.

 From the 20000 foot view, going through the extra hurdle of splitting 
the document because one of the managed features is experimental seems 
to me like a distraction to me.

My two cents.

Now, if you really want to split the doc., please publish both at the 
same time.

Regards, Benoit
> On 2/7/18 03:14, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>> Hi Joe, all,
>>
>> Thanks. Lets' then go that path.
>>
>> A new version which addresses the comments from Tim (remove the NPTv6 part + some minor edits) is available at:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/?include_text=1
>>
>> Tim, thank you for identifying this issue at this stage of the publication process.
>>
>> One logistic question for the NPTv6 document, though: Should it be published (1) as draft-ietf-ospawg-* given that its content was part of the document that was accepted by the WG and that passed the WGLC or (2) as an individual document that will be handed to the AD together with draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang?
> My preference would be a WG document for the reasons you state, but let
> me check with Warren and Ignas.
>
> Joe
>
>> Cheers,
>> Med
>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : Joe Clarke [mailto:jclarke@cisco.com]
>>> Envoyé : mardi 6 février 2018 17:59
>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Tim Chown
>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>
>>> On 2/6/18 05:48, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>> Re-,
>>>>
>>>> Either ways are easy to handle. I do a have a preference (dedicated
>>> informative section).
>>>> I will wait for instructions from the chairs about how to proceed.
>>> I do not have a strong preference, but I do think there will be
>>> additional augmentations the NAT module, and so I lean more towards
>>> another document as not to conflate the work.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Med
>>>>
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>> Envoyé : mardi 6 février 2018 11:17
>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 10:13, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re-,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please see inline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Med
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>>>> Envoyé : mardi 6 février 2018 10:38
>>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>>>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>>>>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Med,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 09:02, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for the review.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please see inline.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Med
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:tim.chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>>>>>> Envoyé : lundi 5 février 2018 20:07
>>>>>>>>> À : ops-dir@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> Cc : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> Objet : Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Reviewer: Tim Chown
>>>>>>>>> Review result: Has Nits
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's
>>>>>>>>> ongoing
>>>>>>>>> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
>>> These
>>>>>>>>> comments were written with the intent of improving the operational
>>>>> aspects
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be
>>>>>>> included
>>>>>>>>> in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>> treat these comments  just like any other last call comments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This document defines a YANG model for a wide variety of NAT
>>> functions,
>>>>>>>>> including NAT44, NAT64, CLAT, SIIT and NPT66.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The document is generally well written, and structured appropriately.
>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>> are some very minor grammatical errors. Appropriate documentation
>>>>> prefixes
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> used in the Appendix of examples.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I believe the document is Ready for publication, with Nits.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note: I am not a YANG doctor; I see that a separate YANG doctor review
>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> performed, and I assume that review has covered Section 3.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> General comment:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This document is targeted to Standards Track, yet defines a YANG model
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> Experimental protocol, NPT66; is that acceptable?  (I don't know, but
>>> I
>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>>> the question needs to be raised, given also the text of
>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02.)
>>>>>>>> [Med] The document defines NPTv6 as a "feature". It does not recommend
>>>>> nor
>>>>>>> argue against the use of NPTv6 per se.
>>>>>>>> FWIW, I'm aware of one Standards Track RFC which lists NPTv6 as one of
>>>>> its
>>>>>>> deployment scenarios: RFC6887.
>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>>>   PCP can be used in various deployment scenarios, including:
>>>>>>>> ..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   o  IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation (NPTv6) [RFC6296]
>>>>>>>> ==
>>>>>>> Well, I raise the question for consideration by the IESG
>>>>>> [Med] Your initial comment was fair, Tim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ; while there's a
>>>>>>> precedent here - and probably elsewhere - it feels odd having a
>>> Standards
>>>>>>> Track document supporting an Experimental one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could the NPTv6 definitions be extracted to a separate RFC, as you have
>>>>> done
>>>>>>> with some other elements, or are they shared with Standards Track
>>>>> mechanisms?
>>>>>> [Med] NPTv6 part can be published in a separate document as an augment to
>>>>> draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang. That is indeed one possibility. Registering an
>>>>> entry in the IETF XML Registry assumes "Specification is Required" and
>>> adding
>>>>> a name in the "YANG Module Names" registry is based on "RFC Required". So
>>>>> having an experimental YANG document for NPTv6 would be OK.
>>>>>> Another approach would be to remove the NPTv6 part from the main YANG
>>>>> module, but define the nptv6 augment in a dedicated section and make it
>>> clear
>>>>> that section is not normative. This will be easy to handle.
>>>>>> Any preference?
>>>>> Either would be an improvement. My preference would be for the first one,
>>>>> given I recall you also have other complementary documents to the main one
>>>>> (and I think the YANG doctor originally asked whether there should be a
>>> high
>>>>> level NAT model and then one model per NAT type).
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nits:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> p.4 - I think an Internal Host doesn't really "solicit" a NAT
>>>>> capability;
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> implies some messaging between the host and the NAT. Perhaps say "need
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> use",
>>>>>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>>>> [Med] Works for me. Thanks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Appendix - it would perhaps be easier for the reader if the same
>>>>>>>>> documentation
>>>>>>>>> prefixes were used to refer to internal and external networks
>>> throughout
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> examples, though this is only a minor style point.
>>>>>>>> [Med] I updated where it makes sense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Section A.11 - the ULA prefixes used here are not (or very unlikely to
>>>>>>> be!)
>>>>>>>>> true ULAs with randomised prefixes. Again, a style point.  Perhaps
>>> some
>>>>>>>>> documentation ULAs need to be defined elsewhere.
>>>>>>>> [Med] As explicitly stated in titles ("Example of NPTv6 (RFC6296)" and
>>>>>>> "Connecting two Peer Networks (RFC6296)"), these examples are extracted
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> RFC6296. We are re-using the same prefixes as those in 6296-examples.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, it feels odd though looking at them. The alternative is to use a
>>>>> true
>>>>>>> ULA prefix (roll the dice!).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Med] Deal!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tim
> .
>


From nobody Wed Feb 21 09:46:14 2018
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From: Jeffrey Haas 
To: Paolo Lucente 
Cc: Tianran Zhou , "grow@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" ,  opsawg 
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Paolo,

I don't speak for the authors here, just my opinion.

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 05:37:59PM +0100, Paolo Lucente wrote:
> One concern is that this looks a very isolated effort, ie. why communities
> and not as-path? I remember the story of this draft, it comes from field
> needs and that is in short the answer to the cherry-picking.

Partly, the usual information that people want from flow for AS information
(origin or peer AS) is already available.  The full path, no.  One certainly
could make the argument that the full path could be sent.

Since flow analyzers mostly want the active route's properties, having the
communities to go along with it is helpful.

> The second concern, the one going the opposite direction than the previous
> one, is that in future it could be tempting for somebody to repeat the
> story of this draft and add support for as-paths and/or other BGP
> attributes in IPFIX: here i see a mix-up among the original intent to
> report on data plane information with the reporting on control-plane (BGP)
> information: in other words, is (potentially) encapsulating (all) BGP
> attributes for every sampled packet/flow a valid idea? For example, is not
> BGP/BMP peering at the IPFIX collector itself much more efficient instead
> of moving control-plane info over and over again? At this propo, the
> motivation that roughly 20 years ago it was decided to make source and
> destination ASNs part of NetFlow v5 (and few years later BGP next-hop was
> added as part of NetFlow v9) is a bit weak, IMO; maybe there is more to
> it, and i’d be happy to hear about it. 

Analyzers still find it handy to have source and destination AS.  This in
some cases avoids lag issues due to propagation of sniffed BGP (via iBGP
peering or BMP) for the sampling router.  Additionally, a lot of useful data
can be gathered without having BGP at all at the analyzer.

I do understand the concern, but personally find it unlikely that this is
the feared "slippery slope". [1]

-- Jeff

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope


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From: Warren Kumari 
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:03:08 -0500
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To: Benoit Claise 
Cc: Joe Clarke , mohamed.boucadair@orange.com,  Tim Chown , "ops-dir@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" ,  "opsawg@ietf.org" 
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On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Benoit Claise  wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I'm not the responsible AD for draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang but let me shar=
e
> my view from a YANG point of view.
> Do we really believe that the intended status of Standards Track of
> Experimental will influence whether a YANG module is implemented? This
> module will be implemented if it solves a business issue, full stop. The
> indented status is not even relayed into YANG module. I mean: once extrac=
ted
> from the RFC, the YANG module is not flagged as experimental because the
> feature to be managed is experimental.
>
> From the 20000 foot view, going through the extra hurdle of splitting the
> document because one of the managed features is experimental seems to me
> like a distraction to me.

I fully agree with Benoit. While I'm technically the responsible AD,
Benoit is the SME (and also happens to be right :-))
W


>
> My two cents.
>
> Now, if you really want to split the doc., please publish both at the sam=
e
> time.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> On 2/7/18 03:14, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Joe, all,
>>>
>>> Thanks. Lets' then go that path.
>>>
>>> A new version which addresses the comments from Tim (remove the NPTv6
>>> part + some minor edits) is available at:
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/?include_te=
xt=3D1
>>>
>>> Tim, thank you for identifying this issue at this stage of the
>>> publication process.
>>>
>>> One logistic question for the NPTv6 document, though: Should it be
>>> published (1) as draft-ietf-ospawg-* given that its content was part of=
 the
>>> document that was accepted by the WG and that passed the WGLC or (2) as=
 an
>>> individual document that will be handed to the AD together with
>>> draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang?
>>
>> My preference would be a WG document for the reasons you state, but let
>> me check with Warren and Ignas.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Med
>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Joe Clarke [mailto:jclarke@cisco.com]
>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 6 f=C3=A9vrier 2018 17:59
>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Tim Chown
>>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>
>>>> On 2/6/18 05:48, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Re-,
>>>>>
>>>>> Either ways are easy to handle. I do a have a preference (dedicated
>>>>
>>>> informative section).
>>>>>
>>>>> I will wait for instructions from the chairs about how to proceed.
>>>>
>>>> I do not have a strong preference, but I do think there will be
>>>> additional augmentations the NAT module, and so I lean more towards
>>>> another document as not to conflate the work.
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Med
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 6 f=C3=A9vrier 2018 11:17
>>>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>>>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 10:13, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Re-,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please see inline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Med
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 6 f=C3=A9vrier 2018 10:38
>>>>>>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
>>>>>>>> Cc : ops-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org;
>>>>>>>> opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Med,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 09:02, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the review.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please see inline.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Med
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>>>>>> De : Tim Chown [mailto:tim.chown@jisc.ac.uk]
>>>>>>>>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 5 f=C3=A9vrier 2018 20:07
>>>>>>>>>> =C3=80 : ops-dir@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> Cc : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> Objet : Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Reviewer: Tim Chown
>>>>>>>>>> Review result: Has Nits
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational
>>>>>>>>>> directorate's
>>>>>>>>>> ongoing
>>>>>>>>>> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
>>>>
>>>> These
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> comments were written with the intent of improving the operation=
al
>>>>>>
>>>>>> aspects
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call ma=
y
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> included
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG
>>>>>>>>>> chairs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> treat these comments  just like any other last call comments.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This document defines a YANG model for a wide variety of NAT
>>>>
>>>> functions,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> including NAT44, NAT64, CLAT, SIIT and NPT66.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The document is generally well written, and structured
>>>>>>>>>> appropriately.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> are some very minor grammatical errors. Appropriate documentatio=
n
>>>>>>
>>>>>> prefixes
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> used in the Appendix of examples.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe the document is Ready for publication, with Nits.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note: I am not a YANG doctor; I see that a separate YANG doctor
>>>>>>>>>> review
>>>>>>
>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> performed, and I assume that review has covered Section 3.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> General comment:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This document is targeted to Standards Track, yet defines a YANG
>>>>>>>>>> model
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Experimental protocol, NPT66; is that acceptable?  (I don't know=
,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the question needs to be raised, given also the text of
>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [Med] The document defines NPTv6 as a "feature". It does not
>>>>>>>>> recommend
>>>>>>
>>>>>> nor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> argue against the use of NPTv6 per se.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FWIW, I'm aware of one Standards Track RFC which lists NPTv6 as o=
ne
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> deployment scenarios: RFC6887.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> =3D=3D
>>>>>>>>>   PCP can be used in various deployment scenarios, including:
>>>>>>>>> ..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   o  IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation (NPTv6) [RFC6296]
>>>>>>>>> =3D=3D
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I raise the question for consideration by the IESG
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Med] Your initial comment was fair, Tim.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ; while there's a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> precedent here - and probably elsewhere - it feels odd having a
>>>>
>>>> Standards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Track document supporting an Experimental one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Could the NPTv6 definitions be extracted to a separate RFC, as you
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>
>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with some other elements, or are they shared with Standards Track
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mechanisms?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Med] NPTv6 part can be published in a separate document as an
>>>>>>> augment to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang. That is indeed one possibility.
>>>>>> Registering an
>>>>>> entry in the IETF XML Registry assumes "Specification is Required" a=
nd
>>>>
>>>> adding
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a name in the "YANG Module Names" registry is based on "RFC Required=
".
>>>>>> So
>>>>>> having an experimental YANG document for NPTv6 would be OK.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another approach would be to remove the NPTv6 part from the main YA=
NG
>>>>>>
>>>>>> module, but define the nptv6 augment in a dedicated section and make
>>>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> clear
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that section is not normative. This will be easy to handle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any preference?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Either would be an improvement. My preference would be for the first
>>>>>> one,
>>>>>> given I recall you also have other complementary documents to the ma=
in
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> (and I think the YANG doctor originally asked whether there should b=
e
>>>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> high
>>>>>>
>>>>>> level NAT model and then one model per NAT type).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nits:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> p.4 - I think an Internal Host doesn't really "solicit" a NAT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> capability;
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> implies some messaging between the host and the NAT. Perhaps say
>>>>>>>>>> "need
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> use",
>>>>>>>>>> or something else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [Med] Works for me. Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Appendix - it would perhaps be easier for the reader if the same
>>>>>>>>>> documentation
>>>>>>>>>> prefixes were used to refer to internal and external networks
>>>>
>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> examples, though this is only a minor style point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [Med] I updated where it makes sense.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Section A.11 - the ULA prefixes used here are not (or very
>>>>>>>>>> unlikely to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> be!)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> true ULAs with randomised prefixes. Again, a style point.  Perha=
ps
>>>>
>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> documentation ULAs need to be defined elsewhere.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [Med] As explicitly stated in titles ("Example of NPTv6 (RFC6296)=
"
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Connecting two Peer Networks (RFC6296)"), these examples are
>>>>>>>> extracted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RFC6296. We are re-using the same prefixes as those in
>>>>>>>> 6296-examples.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, it feels odd though looking at them. The alternative is to
>>>>>>>> use a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> true
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ULA prefix (roll the dice!).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Med] Deal!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Tim
>>
>> .
>>
>



--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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From: Tim Chown 
To: Warren Kumari 
CC: Benoit Claise , "ops-dir@ietf.org" ,  "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Opsdir early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-10
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From nobody Thu Feb 22 04:17:20 2018
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To: Tim Chown , Warren Kumari 
Cc: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang.all@ietf.org" , "opsawg@ietf.org" 
References: <151785762665.5787.13501700077310392386@ietfa.amsl.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CBF39@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>  <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CC036@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>  <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CC067@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1e73c03e-7dbb-d4de-e268-6e1fba7b33dc@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A0CC956@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <49bc63df-e746-d945-ba3d-7ea5b38ce921@cisco.com>    
From: Benoit Claise 
Message-ID: <2201b85a-dc35-1f75-c8bd-a4a519054661@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:17:14 -0500
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Hi Tim,
> I raised the question in my ops-dir review on whether it was OK for a Standards Track document (draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang) to include definitions for an Experimental Track mechanism (NPT66).
>
> I don't personally have a strong view either way, but felt obliged to point out the discrepancy
And you can be sure that this is much appreciated. Thanks for your feedback.

Regards, Benoit


From nobody Thu Feb 22 06:26:52 2018
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From: Joe Clarke 
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17
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Joe Clarke has requested publication of draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-17 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the OPSAWG working group.

Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-mud/


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:27:40 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Eric,

A quick update per the discussion on a TLS draft.

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
 wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> Thanks for your feedback, responses are inline.
>
> FYI - I posted another version, but expect at least one more iteration
> after this version with additional comments and the ones we haven't
> gotten to yet.
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:04 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: Discuss
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I have completely re-reviewed the latest version. First, I want to
>> thank you for toning down some of the material that I was concerned
>> about.
>>
>> Unfortunately, the fundamental concern that motivated my DISCUSS
>> remains: I do not believe that this document matches the consensus
>> of the IETF community.
>>
>> Specifically, this document takes at face value a large number of
>> claims about the necessity/value of certain practices that either are
>> controversial within the IETF or that there is, I believe, rough
>> consensus to be actively bad, and that in many cases, encryption is
>> specifically designed to prevent. I have noted a number of these
>> below, but I do not believe that this is an exhaustive list (going
>> through my previous DISCUSS, I see that I noted a number of these but
>> that still appear to be unaddressed.)
>
> In the previous round of IESG reviews, the IESG concluded that framing
> upfront was the preferred approach to make it clear that not all cited
> practices are ones the IETF consider valid.  This was done in the
> updated introduction.
>
> Please respond to the discussion points as I believe your additional
> points have been addressed to also make these points again in the
> document.  In a couple of places, we have questions to make sure your
> concern is understood.
>
>>
>>
>> DISCUSS
>>    session encryption that deployed more easily instead of no
>>    encryption.
>>
>> I think I understand what you are saying here, but the term
>> "breakable" seems very unfortunate, especially in the context of this
>> document. The only such shift I am aware of that has received
>> acceptance in IETF is one from always requiring fully authenticated
>> encryption to allowing unauthenticated encryption, which you document
>> in the next paragraph. I recognize that there are other perspectives
>> (e.g., those in draft-rhrd) but those are pretty far from IETF
>> consenus. Accordingly, I think you should remove this sentence.
>
> Opportunistic security was well discussed, so that was likely top of
> mind for you when reading this draft. However there are other areas
> where the IETF decided breakable encryption was better than none in
> recent years.  Another adopted and published example is in the mail
> community.  Deprecating MD5 was deemed to be too hard because of
> support in a particular library.  We had lengthy discussions about
> this for RFC7627 (see sect 6.2) and related drafts, now published
> RFCs.
>
> This sentence had nothing to do with the drafts that are not WG drafts
> in the TLS WG, but real use cases of published RFCs where deprecated
> crypto is still accepted despite efforts to correct that in addition
> to the acceptance of the OS approach in multiple session encryption
> protocols.  The support tools and use cases don't always drive the
> best solution where we have strong crypto everywhere as you have also
> noted on recent draft reviews, now published RFCs.
>
>>
>>
>>    motivation outside of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are
>>    driving end-to-end encryption for these content providers.
>>
>> This section seems kind of confusing, at least as applied to
>> HTTP. There are three kinds of cache in HTTP:
>>
>> - Reverse proxy caches (the kind CDNs run)
>> - Explicit forward proxy caches
>> - "Transparent" intercepting caches
>>
>> The first of these move to HTTPS just fine and that's typically how
>> CDNs do it.  Explicit forward proxy caches are largely going away, but
>> part of the point of this kind of end-to-end encryption is to hide
>> data from those caches.
>
> Sure, that point was made in the draft and cleared up a little further
> from Benjamin K's review.  The business risk associated with not
> controlling your content was more explicitly stated for CDNs who have
> moved to an e2e approach.
>
> Here's the updated sentence:
>    The business risk of losing control of content is a motivation outside
>    of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are driving end-to-end
>    encryption for these content providers.
>
>> Transparent intercepting caches that the user
>> didn't opt into are a bad thing, so having them go away is a positive.
>
> The text says authorized parties, so this is referring to caches where
> there is an agreement in place for this usage.  CDN's that wish to
> block this behavior have the option to require e2e.  That trend alone
> may be enough to kill this type of service offering.  I don't see why
> it shouldn't be mentioned in terms of it's current use.  What change
> are you looking to see here?
>
>>
>>    document existing practices, the development of IETF protocols
>>    follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804].
>>
>> This is pretty opaque in this context. It should explicitly state that
>> the IETF's position is that we do not engineer for these use cases,
>> not just to cite the RFCs.
>
> We can add the following (or suggest something else):
>
> "and explicitly do not support tools and methods that could be used
> for wiretapping and censorship."
>
>>
>>
>>    based billing, or for other reasons, possibly considered
>>    inappropriate by some.  See RFC7754 [RFC7754] for a survey of
>>    Internet filtering techniques and motivations.  This section is
>>
>> I don't think this accurately represents the RFC, which makes clear
>> that the IAB consensus is that filtering is bad:
>>
>> " From a technical perspective, there are no perfect or even good
>> solutions -- there is only least bad.  On that front, we posit that a
>> hybrid approach that combines endpoint-based filtering with network
>> filtering may prove least damaging.  An endpoint may choose to
>> participate in a filtering regime in exchange for the network
>> providing broader unfiltered access."
>
> I've added the following to the end of the sentence as the RFC is too
> long to repeat what is already in 7754:
>
>    "and the IAB consensus on those mechanisms."
>
> But I'll note that this cherry picks one part of the conclusion
> section of 7754 and even this text acknowledges that some network
> filtering is needed in the suggested hybrid approach.
>
> The first paragraph of this section says:
>   "Filtering will continue to occur on the Internet. We conclude that,
>    whenever possible, filtering should be done on the endpoint.
>    Cooperative endpoints are most likely to have sufficient contextual
>    knowledge to effectively target blocking; hence, such blocking
>    minimizes unintended consequences.  It is realistic to expect that at
>    times filtering will not be done on the endpoints.  In these cases,
>    promptly informing the endpoint that blocking has occurred provides
>    necessary transparency to redress any errors, particularly as they
>    relate to any collateral damage introduced by errant filters."
>
> This text does not say it is bad, it says that it should occur when
> possible on the endpoint and that in cases where it is not possible,
> the end points should be notified of this filtering.  That's different
> from saying filtering is bad as there are a number of cases why the
> IAB agreed on a hybrid approach.
>
> DDoS mitigation requires the use of SP filtering to be effective.
> This is a clear example of where filtering must be done on the network
> and is very important and hard to argue that it isn't good.  You may
> have to step back toward the source of the traffic, iteratively
> setting up filters to block traffic through cooperation of SPs until
> you get close to the source.
>
> Filtering recommended in BCP38 certainly has had a positive impact.
>
> SPs also use filtering to protect their own infrastructure.
>
> This was just a quick response, I am sure there are other good
> examples that supported the hybrid recommendation.
>
>>
>>
>>    detect or prevent attacks as well as to guarantee service level
>>    expectations.  In some cases, alternate options are available when
>>    encryption is in use, but techniques like that of data leakage
>>
>> These certainly are use cases, but you really need to acknowledge that
>> it's also a form of user surveillance.
>>
>
> This is referring to corporate networks.  The rules are a bit
> different since you get a paycheck and agree to monitoring, sign an
> acknowledgement as an employee then operate on their equipment and
> network.
>
> To help make this point more clear, I've added text into section 4.1,
> let us know if this does not address your concern:
>
> OLD:
> Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and
> network infrastructure that provide critical business services to
> their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for
> all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of
> experience for all user sessions. These responsibilities break down
> into three basic areas:
>
> NEW:
> Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and
> network infrastructure that provide critical business services to
> their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for
> all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of
> experience for all user sessions. Users typically sign agreements
> acknowledging that they are subject to monitoring while operating on
> corporate networks. Subsections of 4. Encryption for Enterprises may
> discuss techniques that access data beyond the data-link, network, and
> transport level headers typically used in SP networks since the
> corporate enterprise owns the data. These responsibilities break down
> into three basic areas:
>
> This was one of the reasons why we felt it was important to keep
> section 4 separate.
>
>>
>>    Some DLP tools intercept traffic at the Internet gateway or proxy
>>    services with the ability to man-in-the-middle (MiTM) encrypted
>>    session traffic (HTTP/TLS).  These tools may use key words important
>>    to the enterprise including business sensitive information such as
>>    trade secrets, financial data, personally identifiable information
>>    (PII), or personal health information (PHI).  Various techniques are
>>    used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and other purposes, and
>>    are described in "Summarizing Known Attacks on TLS and DTLS"
>>    [RFC7457].
>>
>> As far as I know, the MITM techniques used by middleboxes are not
>> described in 7457.
>
> The use of an RSA static key is discussed in terms of the danger of
> using this approach in Section 2.8. I updated the text slightly to
> make this point more clear and added the section reference:
>
> Various techniques are used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and
> other purposes, and can be misused as described in "Summarizing Known
> Attacks on TLS and DTLS [RFC7457] Section 2.8.
>
>>
>> You also need to cover the fact that these MITM are a threat to user
>> security because they are often so badly implemented.
>
> I think 7457 does a good job of that.  Let us know if you have
> proposed text if the above fix isn't enough for you coupled with this
> being in the Enterprise section.
>
>>
>>
>> S 5.4.
>> It's pretty odd to talk about phishing without acknowledging that by
>> far the largest anti-phishing platform (Safe Browsing) operates in the
>> client, not be network interception.
>
> We responded on this previously pointing out that this is mentioned in
> section 5.3 on phishing.  Here's the text:
>
>    Administrators might also add URLs contained in
>    messages to block lists locally or this may also be done by browser
>    vendors through larger scales efforts like that of the Anti-Phishing
>    Working Group (APWG).  See the Coordinating Attack Response at
>    Internet Scale (CARIS) workshop Report [RFC8073] for additional
>    information and pointers to the APWG's efforts on anti- phishing.
>
> The CARIS report goes a bit deeper as well.  The approach is broader
> than just the browser vendors and that should be acknowledged.
> Cooperation of many other players is involved in updating the block
> lists and working with law enforcement to take down the offending
> sites.  Safe Browsing is just one piece of the larger puzzle and the
> browser block lists are already mentioned.
>
>>
>>
>>     The transport header encryption prevents trusted transit proxies.  It
>>    may be that the benefits of such proxies could be achieved by end to
>>
>> You don't define a "trusted transit proxy" so I don't know what this
>> means, and whether they provide any benefit, but this certainly sounds
>> euphemistic. Generally, "trusted" is not an adjective we associate
>> with network proxies operated by third parties.
>
> We added a little more text on this per Benjamin's comment.  I'm
> including the full text of the paragraph so this is not taken out of
> context as endorsing such mechanisms as the text goes on to say other
> ways it could be addressed in an encrypted Internet.  Here is the
> text.
>
>      Transport header encryption prevents the use of transit proxies
>      in center of the network and the use of some edge proxies by preventing
>      the proxies from taking action on the stream. It may be that the benefits
>      of such proxies could be achieved by end-to-end client and server
>      optimizations, distribution using CDNs, plus the ability to continue
>      connections across different access technologies (across dynamic
>      user IP addresses).
>
>>
>>
>>    In the best case scenario, engineers and other innovators would work
>>    to solve the problems at hand in new ways rather than prevent the use
>>    of encryption.  As stated in [RFC7258], "an appropriate balance
>>    (between network management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time
>>    as real instances of this tension are considered."
>>
>> Much of the context of this debate is about whether operators not
>> being able to do the things in this document is a problem, and this
>> seems to presume the answer.
>
> Section 8 has been overhauled in response to Deborah's comments. I see
> what you mean in the wording and that was not intended. The goal of
> the draft is to help improve adoption by talking about the issues and
> bringing them to the surface for discussion (tough discussions that
> need to happen).  Here is the current text.
>
> "As stated in [RFC7258] an appropriate balance (between network
> management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time as real instances
> of this tension are considered." Numerous operators made it clear in
> their response to this document that they fully support strong
> encryption and providing privacy for end users, this is a common goal.
> Operators recognize not all the practices documented need to be
> supported going forward, either because of the risk to end user
> privacy or alternate technologies and tools have already emerged. This
> document is intended to support network engineers and other innovators
> to work toward solving network and security management problems with
> protocol designers and application developers in new ways that
> facilitate adoption of strong encryption rather than preventing the
> use of encryption. By having the discussions on network and security
> management practices with application developers and protocol
> designers, each side of the debate can understand each others goals,
> work toward alternate solutions, and disband with practices that
> should no longer be supported. A goal of this document is to assist
> the IETF to understand some of the current practices so as to identify
> new work items for IETF-related use cases which can help facilitate
> the adoption of strong session encryption and support network and
> security management."
>
>>
>>
>>    This optimization at network edges measurably improves real-time
>>    transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks with large
>>
>> Do you have a citation for this claim?
>
> The draft that this text refers to in the previous paragraph has a
> section on performance enhancing proxies, section 3.5 and is referred
> to right before this text. David Dolson was the contributor.
>
>>
>>
>>    Web proxies are sometimes used to filter traffic, allowing only
>>    access to well-known sites found to be legitimate and free of malware
>>    on last check by a proxy service company.  This type of restriction
>>    is usually not noticeable in a corporate setting as the typical
>>    corporate user does not access sites that are not well-known to these
>>    tools, but may be noticeable to those in research who are unable to
>>    access colleague's individual sites or new web sites that have not
>>    yet been screened.  In situations where new sites are required for
>>    access, they can typically be added after notification by the user or
>>    proxy log alerts and review.  Home mail account access may be blocked
>>    in corporate settings to prevent another vector for malware to enter
>>    as well as for intellectual property to leak out of the network.
>>    This method remains functional with increased use of encryption and
>>    may be more effective at preventing malware from entering the
>>    network.  Web proxy solutions monitor and potentially restrict access
>>    based on the destination URL or the DNS name.  A complete URL may be
>>    used in cases where access restrictions vary for content on a
>>    particular site or for the sites hosted on a particular server.
>>
>> If you are filtering on URL and there is HTTPS involved, then you are
>> a MITM, and this is potentially noticeable to end-users. We encounter
>> this regularly when MITM proxies make mistakes in getting into our
>> trust anchor store.
>
> This is in the enterprise section where monitoring is accepted by end
> users.  What is your proposal here?  I don't see an issue with
> describing this usage.  Are you okay with this text since you also see
> this as an issue and perhaps it needs more discussion?
>
>>
>>
>> Re: 0-rating.
>>    user.  This feature is impacted if encryption hides the details of
>>    the content domain from the network.
>>
>> Well, maybe. Facebook's zero rating, for instance, is IP-based.
>> https://info.internet.org/en/blog/2015/09/24/enhancing-security-and-privacy-of-free-basics/
>
> It seems the providers or applications offering 0-rating all operate
> differently.
> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/02/verizons-mobile-video-wont-count-against-data-caps-but-netflix-will/
>
> I had more of an issue with the word feature here, so I believe I
> addressed your comment and my concern with the following:
>
>      For some implementations, zero rating is impacted if encryption
>      hides the details of the content domain from the network.
>
>>
>> S 2.2.2.
>> The presentation here seems biased given that it does not acknowledge
>> that one of the reasons that ISPs do traffic class discrimination is
>> to prioritize favored rather than disfavored traffic, regardless of
>> user preferences. I don't believe that the IETF has taken a position
>> for net neutrality, but I'm also pretty sure we don't have consensus
>> against it.
>
> How about the following text:
> This section does not consider traffic discrimination by service
> providers related to NetNeutrality, where traffic may be favored
> according to the service provider preference as opposed to the user's
> preference. These use cases are considered out-of-scope for this
> document as controversial practices.
>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>    Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy of Internet users is
>>    of serious concern to both the user and the operator communities.
>> are of serious concern
>
> Thanks.
>>
>>    Traditional network management, planning, security operations, and
>>    performance optimization have been developed in an Internet where a
>>    large majority of data traffic flows without encryption.  While
>> you have a plural/singular mismatch here.
>>
>>    Authentication with IPsec [RFC7619] and there are a number of
>>    infrastructure use cases such as server to server encryption, where
>>    this mode is deployed.  While OS is helpful in reducing pervassive
>> Nit, no comma before "where"
>
> Done, thanks.
>>
>>    recommendations from these documents were were built upon for TLS 1.3
>>    to provide a more inherently secure end-to-end protocol.
>> "were were"
>
> Already fixed, thanks.
>>
>>    to-user content encryption schemes, such as S/MIME and PGP for email
>>    and encryption (e.g.  Off-the-Record (OTR)) for XMPP are used by
>>    those interested to protect their data as it crosses intermediary
>> Not, "e.g.,"
>
> Fixed, thanks.
>>
>>    been impacted by increases in encrypted traffic.  Only methods
>>    keeping with the goal of balancing network management and PM
>>    mitigation in [RFC7258] should be considered in solution work
>>    resulting from this document.
>> I don't understand what the normative content of this was.
>
> There is no normative content.  Are you asking because the lowercase
> should was used?
>
>>
>>    upgrades before user experience declines.  For example, findings of
>>    loss and jitter in VoIP traffic can be a predictor of future customer
>>    dissatisfaction (supported by metadata from the RTP/RTCP protocol )
>>    [RFC3550], or increases in DNS response time can generally make
>>    interactive web browsing appear sluggish.  But to detect such
>>    problems, the application or service stream must first be
>>    distinguished from others.
>>
>> This is a little hard to read, but generally this information is not
>> encrypted for SRTP/SRTCP.
>
> In looking at the text, the Secure version of RTP/RTCP isn't mentioned
> and isn't cited as an issue.  The text (from Dave Dolson, we think)
> seems to say that any form of security that obscures the application
> or service info of the stream complicates analysis as VoIP, or
> analysis as .
>
> If this isn't clear enough, would you like to propose text?
>
>>
>>    When using increased encryption, operators lose a source of data that
>>    may be used to debug user issues.  Because of this, application
>>    server operators using increased encryption might be called upon more
>>    frequently to assist with debugging and troubleshooting, and thus may
>>    want to consider what tools can be put in the hands of their clients
>>    or network operators.
>>
>> This is phrased as hypothetical, but is there any actual data to
>> support this? We have a lot of experience now with encrypted voice and
>> video as well as Web. Do those providers report any increased level of requests.
>
> This makes perfect sense.  If you are troubleshooting and the data is
> not available at the endpoint, the network is used.  If that goes
> away, logging and reporting at the endpoint has to improve.  If you
> take a look at the feedback from the OPsDir review, it had several
> specific types of log improvements added into a paragraph early into
> the document.  I added a few more to that from other comments.
>
> In my operational experience as well as work with customers at EMC,
> I've heard this comment as well and it was addressed.  This is part of
> why the increase in encryption with storage platforms is not a big hit
> - tools were provided at the endpoint to fill the gap.
>
>>
>>    the new flow and would not be able to route it back to the original
>>    POP.
>>
>> I'm having a little trouble understanding this paragraph. Why is this
>> about mobile operators? It seems like it's an issue for anyone who has
>> a service that might have mobile clients.
>
> If you mean laptops/IP based devices on WiFi access, this works
> differently at the routing layer than with cellular mobile phones.
> Phones need to be able to transition seamlessly with migrations
> (coordinated roaming).  Other devices, like laptops on WiFi access,
> might need this type of transition within a wireless managed
> environment, but this is with APs that don't typically attempt to
> preserve connection state. When IP based devices on WiFi access have
> traffic traversing POPs, it's at the IP layer and the applications
> handle continuity.  The key difference between WiFi and cellular is
> maintaining connection state.
>
>>
>>    effective at providing data offload when there is a network element
>>    close to the receiver that has access to see all the content.
>> This section is also confusing in that it fails to distinguish between proxies
>> of this type that the user opts into from transparent proxies that just do this
>> service without the user's consent. Part of the purpose of encryption is to
>> preclude that.
>
> This reads to me as if these are transparent proxies, so I'll add that
> in to clarify the text further.  Thanks.
>
>>
>>    created from the intercepting device to the client's destination,
>>    this is an opt-in strategy for the client.  Changes to TLSv1.3 do not
>>    impact this more invasive method of interception, where this has the
>> I don't understand the cite to TLS 1.3 here. None of this is presently affected
>> by 1.3.
>
> This is saying that changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more
> invasive method of interception explicitly, so I believe the text
> already addresses your point.  If not, could you please suggest text?
>
>>
>>    endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to offer parental
>>    control.
>> This section makes it seem like there are no other methods that allow for
>> parental control, but that's not true. There are parental control mechanisms
>> which rely on MITM proxies or application interfacing.
>
> The section NOW starts off with the following in the first paragraph
> that should address your concern:
>
>     This section is intended to document a selection of current
>     content blocking practices...
>
> I think this came from Benjamin's review - the section is not
> exhaustive (neither is the draft as it was contribution driven).
>
> This text in the first paragraph should also help with your point:
>     Content blocking may also happen at endpoints or at the edge
>     of enterprise networks, but those are not addressed in this section.
>
> At the edge is a proxy/gateway MiTM solution.
>
> The next paragraph talks about proxies in the core or edge of a
> network, these are also MiTM devices, so I think that's well covered.
>
> The following sentence in this section calls this out as MiTM behavior
> explicitly:
>
>     Changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more invasive method of
>      interception, that has the potential to expose every HTTPS
>      session to an active man in the middle (MitM).
>
> I ammended the following sentence in the last paragraph in case that helps you:
>
> OLD:
> This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint.
>
> NEW:
> This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint or as a
> proxy service.
>
>>
>>    HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this prevents mobile carriers
>>    from intercepting the traffic and performing an HTTP redirect.  As a
>>    result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
>> Yes, stopping traffic redirection is actually one of the major design purposes
>> of HTTPS.
>
> Sure, there's not an issue other than the practice needs to change and
> they need to figure out better ways to notify customers.  It's raised
> here in case better ideas can be developed and some operator may look
> at the reference (RFC6108).  Adam and Al were chatting on this as a
> result of his review, so hopefully they make a little progress.
>
> I added the word appropriately as I think that will address your
> concern.  The operators just want efficient ways to notify their
> customers, it doesn't have to be done this way, but they raised the
> issue because they don't know what to do and I believe, want help.
>
> NEW:
> When the HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this appropriately
> prevents mobile carriers from intercepting the traffic and performing
> an HTTP redirect.
>
>>
>>    to the customer and additional overhead to the mobile network service
>>    provider.
>> This section is basically a commercial for this practice. It needs to
>> acknowledge that it's actually much closer to IETF consensus that it's a bad
>> practice.
>
> This text was already changed as follows:
>
>      The customer may need to call customer care to find out the
>      reason and/or resolve the issue, possibly extending the time
>      needed to restore their network access.
>>
>>    headers to accomplish the, sometimes considered controversial,
>>    functions above.
>> Again, this is precisely the form of attack that HTTPS is intended to prevent.
>
> The following paragraph was added per conversations with Christian and
> Martin.  Hopefully, this also addreses your concern.  The paragraph
> mentioned was amended as well.
>
> NEW:
>     Guidance from the Internet Architecture Board has been provided
>      in [RFC8165] on Design Considerations for Metadata Insertion.
>      The guidance asserts that designs that share metadata only by
>      explicit actions at the host are preferable to designs in which
>      middleboxes insert metadata. Alternate notification methods that
>      follow this and other guidance would be helpful to mobile carriers.
>
>>
>>    perform SSL/TLS decryption are impacted by the increased use of
>>    encryption that prevents interception.
>> I don't really understand what this text means. What is "use of encryption that
>> prevents interception" in the context of tools which already do decryption?
>
> This reads clear enough to me, but would you be happier with:
>
> s/impacted/no longer functions/
>
> It's referring to encryption that prevents interception, not talking
> about proxies which still can be used technically.  This change has
> not been made yet, so please let us know if this helps or if you have
> another suggestion.
>
>
>>
>>    [DarkMail].  Of course, SPAM filtering will not be possible on
>>    encrypted content.
>> This is not strictly correct, as you can still header filter, etc.
>
> It seems a few words were trimmed in what you have quoted above.
> Here's the full sentence:
>
> Of course, content-based spam filtering will not be possible on
> encrypted content.
>
> I'm not sure what happened there as I don't think this was a recent
> fix. The sentence was in context of content-based filtering.
>
> In much earlier versions of this draft, there was mention of efforts
> that would encrypt email header information to protect privacy
> discussed a couple of years ago (SAAG and a spin off list) - which is
> a good thing to do.  If that happens operations are impacted and that
> would require discussion to develop new approaches for spam filtering
> and other email based attack prevention techniques.
>
>>
>>    over the Internet.  Options for monitoring will vary with each
>>    encryption approach described below.  In most cases, solution have
>>    been identified to provide encryption while ensuring management
>> Nit: "solutions have"
>
> Already fixed, thanks.
>>
>>    allow for multiple end user sessions to share the same TCP
>>    connection.  This rasises several points of interest with an
>>    increased use of encryption.  TCP session multiplexing should still
>> Typos: rasises
>
> Fixed, thanks.
>>
>>    be possible when TLS or TCPcrypt is in use since the TCP header
>>    information is exposed leaving the 5-tuple accessible.  The use TCP
>>    session multiplexing of an IP layer encyption, e.g.  IPsec, that only
>> I'm not sure if this is correct. What precisely do you mean by "TCP
>> session multiplexing"? A cite would be helpful here.
>
> It's described in section 4.1.3.2:
>
>     TCP pipelining/session multiplexing used mainly by
>     middleboxes today allows for multiple end user sessions
>     to share the same TCP connection.
>
>>
>>    center.  HTTP pipelining requires both the client and server to
>>    participate; visibilty of packets once encrypted will hide the use of
>>    HTTP pipelining for any monitoring that takes place outside of the
>> Typo: visibility
>
> Fixed, thanks.
>>
>>    traffic cannot be intercepted, encouraging alternate options such as
>>    performing these functions at the edge.
>> I'm not seeing the relevance of this. Who is proposing solutions in which
>> encrypted traffic cannot be intercepted at the outgoing network edge.
>
> The only option here for this described usage is a proxy where the TLS
> 1.3 session is terminated and restarted.  If you look back to slides
> from Stephen on PM and advancements resulting from PM being considered
> an attack, one of the ideas to make TLS stronger was DANE
> authentication to provide a way to know you truly have an e2e session
> - a very good thing.  The draft on the last telechat:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-dnssec-chain-extension/
> that should be approved soon is able to do this with some middleboxes,
> but I'm not sure what happens with a proxy - so I asked the editors
> for clarification.  If this just doesn't work and the session proceeds
> without this extension, there is nothing to notify on.  If this is
> something proxies should be aware of to allow through unhampered, it
> would be good to include a little more text.  For instance, in
> corporate networks certain traffic with PII, like financial
> transactions, are not proxied and would benefit from using this
> extension, giving their users assurance in the security of their
> sessions.

 In some cases, alternate options are available when encryption is in
use through a proxy or a shift to monitoring at the endpoint. In both
cases, scaling is a concern and advancements to support this shift in
monitoring practices will assist the deployment of end-to-end
encryption.

Best regards,
Kathleen

>
>>
>>    owing to concealment of critical headers and payloads.  Many forms of
>>    enterprise performance management may be similarly affected.
>> Again, this is sort of transparent caching is an anti-pattern, so this document
>> ought to acknowledge that,
>
> I added the following text at the end of this paragraph to address your concern:
> It should be noted that transparent caching is considered an anti-pattern.
>
> If you have alternate text to suggest, please do!
>
>
>>
>>    parts of the address assignment/management protocols, critical for
>>    SAVI mechanisms, can result in a dysfunction of the SAVI mechanisms.
>> Does anyone actually deploy SAVI? If not, encryption isn't having much of an
>> impact.
>
> It appears to be the case with drafts being published as recent as 2017:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8074
>
> And I'm told it is widely deployed in China.
>
>>
>>    network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
>>    extension, they may not find one.  The SNI Encryption in TLS Through
>>    Tunneling [I-D.ietf-tls-sni-encryption] draft has been adopted by the
>> This doesn't really follow. I mean they "may not" but overwhelmingly they will
>
> I'm not sure when the text was changed, but it already has been changed from.
>
> OLD:
>
>    This information is only visible if the client is populating the
>    Server Name Indication extension.  This need not be done, but may be
>    done as per TLS standard and as stated above this has been
>    implemented by all major browsers.  Therefore, even if existing
>    network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
>    extension, they may not find one.
>
> NEW:
> This information is only available if the client populates the Server
> Name Indication extension. Doing so is an optional part of the TLS
> standard and as stated above this has been implemented by all major
> browsers. Due to its optional nature, though, existing network filters
> that examine a TLS ClientHello for a SNI extension cannot expect to
> always find one.
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:07:37 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Alissa Cooper 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Alissa,

I believe this is the last set of comments received that we had left
to respond.  The next update that will come out shortly following this
message should address all comments and subsequent discussions
received to date.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Alissa Cooper  wrote:
> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: Abstain
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Many thanks for all the effort that has gone in to addressing all the com=
ments
> from the last IESG review and from the community. I find this version to =
be
> much improved from the last time the IESG reviewed it.
>
> However, I do not feel that I can support the publication of the document=
.
> While the tone has improved in many places and the introduction does a be=
tter
> job of contextualizing the document, the document still contains text in
> several sections that states service providers' claims about their practi=
ces as
> facts rather than stating them as claims or presenting the practices in a
> neutral way. This was a point raised in my previous DISCUSS (I've include=
d my
> previous DISCUSS ballot text below in full for reference). In the previou=
s
> review round Warren had invited recommendations for places where the tone=
 or
> choice of words could be made more neutral or balanced, and I provided ma=
ny
> detailed suggestions, but a number of those were not adopted. I also real=
ize
> that the introduction contains much of the disclaimer text we previously =
hashed
> out to try to address this, but it doesn't contain all of it. So this is =
still
> a major issue for the document, IMO.

I believe we had responded to the discussion and left off with the
updates matching the last parts of the discussion.

>
> The document also still extemporizes about future possible impacts, makin=
g it
> hard to come away with a neutral view of their treatment, as I noted in m=
y
> previous DISCUSS ballot.
>
> I support the DISCUSS position held by Ekr. But given the above I don't t=
hink
> it will be fruitful for me to continue to engage on the details of this
> document, so I'm abstaining.
>
> I've included below some of the areas that I still find problematic, as w=
ell as
> some nits.
>
> Problematic areas:
>
> =3D Section 2.1.2 =3D
>
> (1)
> "Network operators are often the first ones called upon to investigate
>    application problems"
>
> I still contend that without data to back this up, this claim should not =
be
> made, especially for the enterprise context.

This is in section 2.1.2, which is specific to service provider
networks.  Al responded on this previously from his experience.  My
experience having worked at a service provider and having managed/been
responsible for the security of several large enterprises matches his
- the service provider is often the first call, especially with the
cited example.  If there's a perceived issue that's network related,
you have an SLA with the service provider and they have to assist.
They will figure out if there is a routing issue, congestion, the
service is not responding, DDoS, or something else that is happening
to cause the trouble.  These are all issues that require a little
network troubleshooting before you point the problem at the
application.  It's not as easy with an application as you don't always
have someone you can call.  The service provider may be seeing the
application issue from multiple customers and may then act on behalf
of many customers to get in touch with the application provider.
Getting to the right person at an application provider is typically
much harder then the initial troubleshooting steps to discover if
there is a network issue.  I'd be embarrassed if I called an
application provider and the issue was the network.  I'd want to rule
out the network and services like DNS prior to making that call.

I know this is one Al wanted to hold firm on and I agree with him from
my experience.

How about the following to make the point more clear for those not
familiar with troubleshooting:

OLD:
Network operators are often the first ones called upon to investigate
application problems (e.g., "my HD video is choppy").

NEW:
Network operators are often the first ones called upon to investigate
application problems (e.g., "my HD video is choppy"), to first rule
out network and network services as a cause for the underlying issue.

I think the real issue though is the text in the rest of the paragraph
(as opposed to the above statement) as it is mixing up practices of
enterprises and that of SPs.  So here is that cleaned up a bit,
removing the packet captures (which might be used if a customer
provides them, but this is stated in the adjusted version of the
previous paragraph.

OLD:
When diagnosing a customer problem, the starting point may be a
particular application that isn't working. The ability to identify the
problem application's traffic is important and packet capture is often
used for this purpose; IP address filtering is not useful for
applications using content delivery networks (CDNs) or cloud
providers. After identifying the traffic, an operator may analyze the
traffic characteristics and routing of the traffic.

NEW:
When diagnosing a customer problem, the starting point may be a
particular application that isn't working. The ability to identify the
problem application's traffic is important and packet capture provided
from the customer close to the edge may be used for this purpose; IP
address filtering is not useful for applications using content
delivery networks (CDNs) or cloud providers. After identifying the
traffic, an operator may analyze the traffic characteristics and
routing of the traffic.  This diagnostic step is important to help
determine the root cause before exploring if the issue is directly
with the application.

>
> (2)
> "Vendors must be aware that in order for operators to better
>    troubleshoot and manage networks with increasing amounts of encrypted
>    traffic, built-in diagnostics and serviceability must be enhanced to
>    provide detailed logging and debugging capabilities that, when
>    possible, can reveal cleartext network parameters."
>
> If I try to paraphrase this it sounds like "vendors should build in
> capabilities to decrypt encrypted traffic." Was that the intent?

This text has been modified as a result of the OPS-Dir review and is
much more helpful, IMO.  It's in a few of the recent versions.

NEW:
A gap exists for vendors where built-in diagnostics and serviceability
is not adequate to provide detailed logging and debugging capabilities
that, when possible, can access cleartext network parameters. In
addition to traditional logging and debugging methods, packet tracing
and inspection along the service path provides operators the
visibility to continue to diagnose problems reported both internally
and by their customers. Logging of service path upon exit for routing
overlay protocols will assist with policy management and
troubleshooting capabilities for traffic flows on encrypted networks.
Protocol trace logging and protocol data unit (PDU) logging should
also be considered to improve visibility to monitor and troubleshoot
application level traffic. Additional work on this gap would assist
network operators to better troubleshoot and manage networks with
increasing amounts of encrypted traffic.

>
> =3D Section 2.2.4 =3D
>
> I agree with Christian Huitema's unresolved comments on this section. In =
the
> thread regarding his comments Kathleen said "we don't want to make genera=
l
> statements that aren't necessarily true" -- IMO that is what the middle t=
hree
> paragraphs in this section are doing. At a minimum, I think the
> characterizations about the effects of performance-enhancing proxies need=
s to
> be qualified by saying "some operators find that ..." rather than stating=
 their
> effects as fact.

The following edits have been made to address this comment:

Operators report that this optimization at network edges measurably
improves real-time transmission over long delay Internet paths or
networks with large capacity-variation (such as mobile/cellular
networks). However, such optimizations can also cause problems with
performance, for example if the characteristics of some packet streams
begin to vary significantly from those considered in the proxy design.

In general some operators have stated that performance-enhancing
proxies have a lower Round-Trip Time (RTT) to the client and therefore
determine the responsiveness of flow control. A lower RTT makes the
flow control loop more responsive to changes in the mobile network
conditions and enables faster adaptation in a delay and capacity
varying network due to user mobility.

Further, some use service-provider-operated proxies to reduce the
control delay between the sender and a receiver on a mobile network
where resources are limited. The RTT determines how quickly a user's
attempt to cancel a video is recognized and therefore how quickly the
traffic is stopped, thus keeping un-wanted video packets from entering
the radio scheduler queue. If impacted by encryption, performance
enhancing proxies could make use of routing overlay protocols to
accomplish the same task, but this results in additional overhead.

>
> =3D Section 2.2.7 =3D
>
> "There is work in progress to specify protocols that permit Service
>    Function Chaining (SFC)."
>
> I don't think it makes sense to have this forward-looking statement when
> Section 1 states that "This document describes practices currently used b=
y
> network operators to manage, operate, and secure their networks." I think=
 it
> makes sense to focus this section on how existing SFC deployments have st=
opped
> functioning because of increased use of encrypted traffic, but it seems u=
nfair
> to claim that some future, yet-to-deployed functionality will be broken.

The work is continuing, so it was poor phrasing that has been
corrected.  This came in from the Gen-ART reviewer, whose in the
routing area.  I checked with Alia on the new text as she confirmed
the only new part of SFC is NSH.  SFC has been around for a while as I
have a colleague who worked on it years ago at Cisco.  This seems
pretty straightforward for the adjustments given the drafts that have
recently been approved, even for NSH.

Service Function Chaining (SFC) has been defined in RFC7665 and &
RFC8300.  As discussed in RFC 7498, common SFC deployments may use
classifiers to direct traffic into VLANs instead of using NSH, as
defined in RFC 8300.   As described in RFC7665, the ordered steering
steering of traffic to support specific optimizations depends upon the
ability of a Classifier to determine the microflows.  RFC2474 defines
"Microflow: a single instance of an application-to-application flow of
packets which is identified by source address, destination address,
protocol id, and source port, destination port (where applicable). "
SFC currently depends upon a classifier to at least identify the
microflow.  As the classifier's visibility is reduced from a 5-tuple
to a 2-tuple, or if information above the transport layer becomes
unaccessible, then the SFC Classifier is not able to perform its job
and the service functions of the path may be adversely affected.

There are also mechanisms provided to protect security and privacy. In
the SFC case, the layer below a network service header can be
protected with session encryption. A goal is protecting end-user data,
while retaining the intended functions of RFC7665 at the same time.


>
> =3D Section 2.3.2 =3D
>
> "As a
>    result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
>    which is a far less optimal customer experience because the blocking
>    reason must be conveyed by some other means."
>
> This could easily be read to imply that sending requests in cleartext is
> optimal.

I read it differently, the customer experience is less optimal as they
don't have a way to provide notification via another means yet for non
SMS customers.

I tweaked a word in that sentence to see if it helps direct where the
'less optimal" is intended and am including text that is from recent
versions after discussion with Adam that you may find helpful.

As a result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
which impacts customer experience because the blocking reason must be
conveyed by some other means. The customer may need to call customer
care to find out the reason and/or resolve the issue, possibly
extending the time needed to restore their network access. While there
are well deployed alternate SMS-based solutions that do not involve
out of specification protocol interception, this is still an unsolved
problem for non-SMS users.

Often was removed from the last paragraph as well.

>
> Overall, the use of the words "usual," "optimal," and "often" in this sec=
tion
> imply a level of generality that is unwarranted I think.
>
> =3D Section 5.6 =3D
>
> The implications for SAVI seem speculative unless you can point to SAVI
> deployments that have been impacted by increased use of encryption.
>

Al may have been pulled int he original content here, so on my last
round of editing, I reached out  to Joel and SAVI is deployed in China
and the text is based on how the protocol works, hence the clear
impact to those using it.

> Nits:
>
> =3D Abstract =3D
>
> s/Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy of Internet users is
>    of serious concern/Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy of
>    Internet users are of serious concern/

Thanks, thank has been fixed already.
>
> =3D Section 2.1.2 =3D
>
> (1)
> "Further, the performance of some services can be more efficiently
>    managed and repaired when information on user transactions is
>    available to the service provider.  It may be possible to continue
>    such monitoring activities without clear text access to the
>    application layers of interest ..."
>
> It's not clear what "such monitoring" refers to, since the previous sente=
nce is
> about performance management and service repair.

Transaction monitoring, so the text has been altered to make this
explicit.  Thanks.

>
> (2)
> Is "User/Service Key Quality Indicators" a term of art? It seems weird to=
 be
> capitalized.

I put it in lower case, but am guessing it is normally KQIs and should
be lower case when spelled out.

>
> =3D Section 2.2.3 =3D
>
> This section seems like it was left in the document by mistake.

The text has been updated with a reference where the impact is noted.

>
> =3D Section 2.3 =3D
>
> "As previously stated, the intent of this document is to
>    document existing practices, the development of IETF protocols
>    follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804]."
>
> Is that comma supposed to be a period? I'm not following the grammar here=
.

This has been altered in an existing version to the following text:

As previously stated, the intent of this document is to document
existing practices; the development of IETF protocols follows the
guiding principles of RFC1984 and RFC2804 and explicitly do not
support tools and methods that could be used for wiretapping and
censorship.

>
> =3D Section 2.3.1 =3D
>
> s/However, the lack of ability to efficiently manage
>    endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to offer parental
>    control./However, the lack of ability to efficiently manage
>    endpoints as a service reduces network service providers' ability to o=
ffer
>    parental control./

Done.

>
> =3D Section 4.1.2 =3D
>
> It seems like a single reference to RFC 8250 would suffice.

The second use points to a specific section within the document, so
I'd prefer to leave that.  Since this is editorial, we can worry about
this later and address it witht he RFC editor.  This happens in a few
other places too.  We'll do something consistent.

>
> =3D Section 7.4 =3D
>
> What is a trusted transit proxy?

In transit as opposed to edge.  We adjusted the text in a prior
version, which should help:

NEW(ish):
Transport header encryption prevents the use of transit proxies in
center of the network and the use of some edge proxies by preventing
the proxies from taking action on the stream.

Thanks for your comments to improve the document.
Kathleen

>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Previous DISCUSS ballot text:
>
> I have cleared my original DISCUSS point from my earlier review -- I get =
what
> the text is saying now, although I still think the "lose the option" lang=
uage
> implies some entitlement to the option in the first place, which seems
> inappropriate.
>
> But given the reviews from Martin Thomson and Christian Huitema, it's not=
 clear
> to me that this document represents the consensus view of the IETF commun=
ity.
> Kathleen's response to Martin reinforces the point that we were discussin=
g in
> the first ballot cycle, which is that this document is written for and
> represents operators, not the broader array of Internet interests. Yet th=
e
> suggestion to state that fact up front in the document was not adopted.
>
> Having had some more time to review this document than I had in the previ=
ous
> ballot cycle, I also am finding myself in agreement with significant port=
ions
> of the reviews from Martin and Christian. Reading their reviews helped
> crystallize a lot of the difficulty I had in parsing this document the fi=
rst
> time around.
>
> I understand the rationale that led to this document being written and I =
think
> there is a version of this document that could be written that would achi=
eve
> the original goals while giving the subject matter a readable, neutral
> treatment. Such a version would be a useful contribution. But I don't thi=
nk
> this document achieves that. In particular, there are four things that I =
think
> it would need to do to achieve that:
>
> 1. State the analysis in a neutral way. As I had mentioned in one of the =
email
> threads for the previous ballot cycle, I believe this document could be w=
ritten
> in a neutral way -- e.g., =E2=80=9CService providers currently do X. It i=
s implemented
> using Y mechanism. Encryption at Z layer breaks current implementations.=
=E2=80=9D --
> but it is not. Instead it characterizes many of the practices described a=
s
> "optimizations" or "features" or "enrichment" and states service provider=
s'
> claims about what these practices accomplish (e.g., "maximize QOE") as fa=
cts
> rather than stating them as the reasons given by service providers for wh=
y they
> engage in the practices. This is why in the previous round I suggested th=
e
> disclaimer at the top of the document to say that the document is giving =
a view
> from service providers; that apparently didn't go anywhere, so the other =
option
> is to describe each technique neutrally, or explain with each technique t=
hat
> the characterization of the benefits is from the view of the operator. Ma=
rtin's
> comments about being clear about who is benefitting point this out as wel=
l.
>
> 2. Limit the discussion to techniques presently being affected and those
> effects. There is a bunch of extemporizing about future possible impacts =
(e.g.,
> in Sec. 2.7, 4.1.2, 4.1.3.1, 5.7, 7, 8). It's very hard to characterize f=
uture
> implications, who will bear the "cost" for what, whether increases in use=
r
> complaints to various parties are "worth it," etc., in a way that is perc=
eived
> as neutral by all affected parties. Better not to make predictions if the=
 goal
> is to give a neutral treatment of network functions being impacted today.
>
> 3. Acknowledge the controversy. Many of the practices described in this
> document are controversial, and have been for a long time. There is nothi=
ng
> wrong with that. I agree with Christian that it would be better to state =
an
> understanding of that head-on rather than leave it to the reader to decid=
e
> whether any particular characterization of something described implies an
> endorsement of it. This has been done before, even in potentially controv=
ersial
> documents that this document references, e.g. RFC 3135.
>
> 4. Structure the document in a way that is consistent and logical with mi=
nimal
> repetition. It seems like there are multiple ways that this could be done=
.
> Organizing based on use case (per Christian) and then discussing techniqu=
es
> used within each use case is one way; organizing based on technique while
> mentioning the goals for which each technique is employed is another. At
> present the document is jumble of these.
>
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


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A new version (-22) has been submitted for draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-22.txt


The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/

Diff from previous version:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-22

Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the diff is available at tools.ietf.org.

IETF Secretariat.


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Subject: [OPSAWG] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-13.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Operations and Management Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : A YANG Module for Network Address
    Translation (NAT) and Network Prefix Translation (NPT)
        Authors         : Mohamed Boucadair
                          Senthil Sivakumar
                          Christian Jacquenet
                          Suresh Vinapamula
                          Qin Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-13.txt
	Pages           : 97
	Date            : 2018-02-23

Abstract:
   For the sake of network automation and the need for programming
   Network Address Translation (NAT) function in particular, a data
   model for configuring and managing the NAT is essential.  This
   document defines a YANG module for the NAT function.

   NAT44, Network Address and Protocol Translation from IPv6 Clients to
   IPv4 Servers (NAT64), Customer-side transLATor (CLAT), Stateless IP/
   ICMP Translation (SIIT), Explicit Address Mappings for Stateless IP/
   ICMP Translation (SIIT EAM), IPv6 Network Prefix Translation (NPTv6),
   and Destination NAT are covered in this document.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   Please update these statements with the RFC number to be assigned to
   this document:

      "This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX;"

      "RFC XXXX: A YANG Module for Network Address Translation (NAT) and
      Network Prefix Translation (NPT)"

      "reference: RFC XXXX"


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-13
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-13

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsawg-nat-yang-13


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Tianran Zhou 
To: "opsawg@ietf.org" 
CC: "opsawg-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Call for presentation
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Hi WG,

The final agenda is published.=20
The OPSAWG meeting is scheduled at 13:30-15:30, Monday Afternoon session I,=
 Blenheim.
Please send over your topics to the mailing list and/or the chairs, if you =
are going to discuss in the face to face meeting.

Cheers,
Tianran


From nobody Sat Feb 24 19:30:20 2018
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To: IETF Discussion Mailing List , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt.all@ietf.org
From: Christian Huitema 
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Christian's review of draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-22
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Kathleen prompted me to review the latest revision of this draft,
promising me that I would "be a lot happier with version 21". I am
actually looking at version 22, and I certainly appreciate the amount of
work that went into improving this draft. We saw 9 revisions over the
last two months, so clearly the authors have been very busy. And the
result is indeed much improved. The old versions were sometimes
irritating, the new version is much easier to follow. I appreciate that
in many places, instead of just lamenting the loss of clear text
inspection capabilities, the draft lists the ongoing efforts in the IETF
to propose alternatives. Mostly, I like the general tone, carefully
asserting that documenting controversial practices is not an
endorsement. And I like the call for cooperation between application
providers and network managers, to develop suitable management and
debugging API.

By and large, I believe that this document is ready.

By that, I mean that we have probably reached an equilibrium, and that
further discussions might delay publication, but will not significantly
alter the content. Despite that general assertion of readiness, I think
that mention two sections that could still be improved.

The section on load balancers (2.2.1) fails to mention that end to end
solutions may very well solve the issue with CDN anycast, by simply
migrating the connections to a CDN unicast address. MTCP would allow
this today, and QUIC most probably will allow that tomorrow. Simple
improvements in the end-to-end transport might obviate the need for
complex deployment of load balancers in the network, resulting in an
overall simpler architecture.

I am very skeptical of the justification for performance enhancing
proxies in section 2.2.4. It develops the idea that having a form of
hop-by-hop transport would be more efficient than end-to-end transport,
because each hop controller would have a shorter RTT to manage and thus
could react more quickly. I understand that argument, and in fact I used
to believe it in the early 80's. Hop by hop control, as done by X.25 and
HDLC in 1980, was arguably more efficient than end-to-end control via
TCP, although of course less flexible. But then by 1988 Van Jacobson
demonstrated that with improved congestion control, TCP was in fact as
efficient or more than hop by hop alternatives. At that point, the
better flexibility of TCP and the simpler network architecture won the
day. I am pretty sure that someone in the CCRG will come up with
innovative congestion control that will similarly moot the debate. In
fact, they may already have. And I would appreciate a pointer to this
kind of history in the draft.

I could go on with more detailed feedback, but I want to keep this
review short, and maybe I am suffering a bit from review fatigue. My
final point is that there are quite a few typos in the draft. Please run
a spell checker and fix them.

-- Christian Huitema


=C2=A0






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--001a114390be813bf205661644d1
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On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 10:29 PM, Christian Huitema 
wrote:

> Kathleen prompted me to review the latest revision of this draft,
> promising me that I would "be a lot happier with version 21". I am
> actually looking at version 22, and I certainly appreciate the amount of
> work that went into improving this draft. We saw 9 revisions over the
> last two months, so clearly the authors have been very busy. And the
> result is indeed much improved. The old versions were sometimes
> irritating, the new version is much easier to follow. I appreciate that
> in many places, instead of just lamenting the loss of clear text
> inspection capabilities, the draft lists the ongoing efforts in the IETF
> to propose alternatives. Mostly, I like the general tone, carefully
> asserting that documenting controversial practices is not an
> endorsement. And I like the call for cooperation between application
> providers and network managers, to develop suitable management and
> debugging API.
>
> By and large, I believe that this document is ready.
>
> By that, I mean that we have probably reached an equilibrium, and that
> further discussions might delay publication, but will not significantly
> alter the content. Despite that general assertion of readiness, I think
> that mention two sections that could still be improved.
>
> The section on load balancers (2.2.1) fails to mention that end to end
> solutions may very well solve the issue with CDN anycast, by simply
> migrating the connections to a CDN unicast address. MTCP would allow
> this today, and QUIC most probably will allow that tomorrow. Simple
> improvements in the end-to-end transport might obviate the need for
> complex deployment of load balancers in the network, resulting in an
> overall simpler architecture.
>
> I am very skeptical of the justification for performance enhancing
> proxies in section 2.2.4. It develops the idea that having a form of
>

These are primarily 'satellite games' proxies.. that early-ack and such to
make the long satellite portion of the transport seem short(er).
They only REALLY need to see TCP headers, so ipsec is problematic, but not
(probably) tls.


> hop-by-hop transport would be more efficient than end-to-end transport,
> because each hop controller would have a shorter RTT to manage and thus
> could react more quickly. I understand that argument, and in fact I used
> to believe it in the early 80's. Hop by hop control, as done by X.25 and
> HDLC in 1980, was arguably more efficient than end-to-end control via
> TCP, although of course less flexible. But then by 1988 Van Jacobson
> demonstrated that with improved congestion control, TCP was in fact as
> efficient or more than hop by hop alternatives. At that point, the
> better flexibility of TCP and the simpler network architecture won the
> day. I am pretty sure that someone in the CCRG will come up with
> innovative congestion control that will similarly moot the debate. In
> fact, they may already have. And I would appreciate a pointer to this
> kind of history in the draft.
>
> I could go on with more detailed feedback, but I want to keep this
> review short, and maybe I am suffering a bit from review fatigue. My
> final point is that there are quite a few typos in the draft. Please run
> a spell checker and fix them.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--001a114390be813bf205661644d1
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On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 10:29 PM, Christian Huitema &=
lt;huitema@huitema=
.net> wrote:
Kathleen promp=
ted me to review the latest revision of this draft,

promising me that I would "be a lot happier with version 21". I a=
m

actually looking at version 22, and I certainly appreciate the amount of
work that went into improving this draft. We saw 9 revisions over the

last two months, so clearly the authors have been very busy. And the

result is indeed much improved. The old versions were sometimes

irritating, the new version is much easier to follow. I appreciate that

in many places, instead of just lamenting the loss of clear text

inspection capabilities, the draft lists the ongoing efforts in the IETF
to propose alternatives. Mostly, I like the general tone, carefully

asserting that documenting controversial practices is not an

endorsement. And I like the call for cooperation between application

providers and network managers, to develop suitable management and

debugging API.



By and large, I believe that this document is ready.



By that, I mean that we have probably reached an equilibrium, and that

further discussions might delay publication, but will not significantly

alter the content. Despite that general assertion of readiness, I think

that mention two sections that could still be improved.



The section on load balancers (2.2.1) fails to mention that end to end

solutions may very well solve the issue with CDN anycast, by simply

migrating the connections to a CDN unicast address. MTCP would allow

this today, and QUIC most probably will allow that tomorrow. Simple

improvements in the end-to-end transport might obviate the need for

complex deployment of load balancers in the network, resulting in an

overall simpler architecture.



I am very skeptical of the justification for performance enhancing

proxies in section 2.2.4. It develops the idea that having a form of

These are primarily 'satellite games'=
 proxies.. that early-ack and such to make the long satellite portion of th=
e transport seem short(er).
They only REALLY need to see TCP head=
ers, so ipsec is problematic, but not (probably) tls.
=C2=A0

hop-by-hop transport would be more efficient than end-to-end transport,

because each hop controller would have a shorter RTT to manage and thus

could react more quickly. I understand that argument, and in fact I used
to believe it in the early 80's. Hop by hop control, as done by X.25 an=
d

HDLC in 1980, was arguably more efficient than end-to-end control via

TCP, although of course less flexible. But then by 1988 Van Jacobson

demonstrated that with improved congestion control, TCP was in fact as

efficient or more than hop by hop alternatives. At that point, the

better flexibility of TCP and the simpler network architecture won the

day. I am pretty sure that someone in the CCRG will come up with

innovative congestion control that will similarly moot the debate. In

fact, they may already have. And I would appreciate a pointer to this

kind of history in the draft.



I could go on with more detailed feedback, but I want to keep this

review short, and maybe I am suffering a bit from review fatigue. My

final point is that there are quite a few typos in the draft. Please run
a spell checker and fix them.



-- Christian Huitema





=C2=A0















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On Feb 25, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Christopher Morrow  wr=
ote:

>> I am very skeptical of the justification for performance enhancing
>> proxies in section 2.2.4. It develops the idea that having a form of
>=20
> These are primarily 'satellite games' proxies.. that early-ack and such to=
 make the long satellite portion of the transport seem short(er).
> They only REALLY need to see TCP headers, so ipsec is problematic, but not=
 (probably) tls.

Enabling TCP Hijacking should never be justification for =E2=80=9Cneeding=E2=
=80=9D to avoid transport header privacy, IMO.=20

Games or other apps that =E2=80=9Cneed=E2=80=9D such support ought to =E2=80=
=9Cneed=E2=80=9D to explicitly permit it by peering their security with thos=
e proxies directly. =20

Joe=

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On Feb 2=
5, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

I am very skeptical of the j=
ustification for performance enhancing

proxies in section 2.2.4. It develops the idea that having a form of

These are primarily 'satellite games' proxies..=
 that early-ack and such to make the long satellite portion of the transport=
 seem short(er).
They only REALLY need to see TCP headers, so ipse=
c is problematic, but not (probably) tls.

E=
nabling TCP Hijacking should never be justification for =E2=80=9Cneeding=E2=80=
=9D to avoid transport header privacy, IMO. 

G=
ames or other apps that =E2=80=9Cneed=E2=80=9D such support ought to =E2=80=9C=
need=E2=80=9D to explicitly permit it by peering their security with those p=
roxies directly.  

Joe
=

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From: Eric Rescorla 
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Thanks for the updated draft. Some responses below.


On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> >
> > DISCUSS
> >    session encryption that deployed more easily instead of no
> >    encryption.
> >
> > I think I understand what you are saying here, but the term
> > "breakable" seems very unfortunate, especially in the context of this
> > document. The only such shift I am aware of that has received
> > acceptance in IETF is one from always requiring fully authenticated
> > encryption to allowing unauthenticated encryption, which you document
> > in the next paragraph. I recognize that there are other perspectives
> > (e.g., those in draft-rhrd) but those are pretty far from IETF
> > consenus. Accordingly, I think you should remove this sentence.
>
> Opportunistic security was well discussed, so that was likely top of
> mind for you when reading this draft. However there are other areas
> where the IETF decided breakable encryption was better than none in
> recent years.  Another adopted and published example is in the mail
> community.  Deprecating MD5 was deemed to be too hard because of
> support in a particular library.  We had lengthy discussions about
> this for RFC7627 (see sect 6.2) and related drafts, now published
> RFCs.
>

I continue to think that the term "breakable" is very unfortunate here
(and of course, MD5 isn't breakable "encryption").

It seems to me that there are four areas where one might think that
compromises ought to be made:

1. Not deploying comsec at all because it's too hard (you allude to this
later).
2. Not deprecating weak algorithms because they are already deployed
(the case of MD5 and the like)
3. Rolling out unauthenticated or opportunistic encryption.
4. Rolling out weak algorithms rather than strong ones.

I agree we do 1-3, but my experience is we try pretty hard to avoid #4, and
that's how I read "breakable encryption". It's also generally not easier
to deploy. I think a better way to phrase this would be to say something
like:

"Perspectives on encryption paradigms have shifted over time to
incorporporate
ease of deployment as a high priority, and balance that against providing
the
maximum possible level of security regardless of deployment considerations"


> >    motivation outside of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are
> >    driving end-to-end encryption for these content providers.
> >
> > This section seems kind of confusing, at least as applied to
> > HTTP. There are three kinds of cache in HTTP:
> >
> > - Reverse proxy caches (the kind CDNs run)
> > - Explicit forward proxy caches
> > - "Transparent" intercepting caches
> >
> > The first of these move to HTTPS just fine and that's typically how
> > CDNs do it.  Explicit forward proxy caches are largely going away, but
> > part of the point of this kind of end-to-end encryption is to hide
> > data from those caches.
>
> Sure, that point was made in the draft and cleared up a little further
> from Benjamin K's review.  The business risk associated with not
> controlling your content was more explicitly stated for CDNs who have
> moved to an e2e approach.
>
> Here's the updated sentence:
>    The business risk of losing control of content is a motivation outside
>    of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are driving end-to-end
>    encryption for these content providers.
>


> > Transparent intercepting caches that the user
> > didn't opt into are a bad thing, so having them go away is a positive.
>
> The text says authorized parties, so this is referring to caches where
> there is an agreement in place for this usage.


It says "authorized parties acting on their behalf", but it's not clear to
me on whose behalf. There is a sharp distinction here between the
network operator and the user. Who did you have in mind?



>   CDN's that wish to
> block this behavior have the option to require e2e.  That trend alone
> may be enough to kill this type of service offering.  I don't see why
> it shouldn't be mentioned in terms of it's current use.  What change
> are you looking to see here?
>

I see you added the following text

   It should be noted that caching was first supported in [RFC1945] and
   continued in the recent update of "Hypertext Transfer Protocol
   (HTTP/1.1): Caching" in [RFC7234].

I would rewrite this:

   It should be noted that explicit caching was first supported in
[RFC1945] and
   continued in the recent update of "Hypertext Transfer Protocol
   (HTTP/1.1): Caching" in [RFC7234]. Some operators also operate
   transparent caches which neither the user nor the origin opt-in to.
   The use of these caches is controversial within IETF and is generally
   precluded by the use of HTTPS.






>
> >
> >    document existing practices, the development of IETF protocols
> >    follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804].
> >
> > This is pretty opaque in this context. It should explicitly state that
> > the IETF's position is that we do not engineer for these use cases,
> > not just to cite the RFCs.
>
> We can add the following (or suggest something else):
>
> "and explicitly do not support tools and methods that could be used
> for wiretapping and censorship."
>

Thanks.



>    based billing, or for other reasons, possibly considered
> >    inappropriate by some.  See RFC7754 [RFC7754] for a survey of
> >    Internet filtering techniques and motivations.  This section is
> >
> > I don't think this accurately represents the RFC, which makes clear
> > that the IAB consensus is that filtering is bad:
> >
> > " From a technical perspective, there are no perfect or even good
> > solutions -- there is only least bad.  On that front, we posit that a
> > hybrid approach that combines endpoint-based filtering with network
> > filtering may prove least damaging.  An endpoint may choose to
> > participate in a filtering regime in exchange for the network
> > providing broader unfiltered access."
>
> I've added the following to the end of the sentence as the RFC is too
> long to repeat what is already in 7754:
>
>    "and the IAB consensus on those mechanisms."
>

Thanks.


>
> >    detect or prevent attacks as well as to guarantee service level
> >    expectations.  In some cases, alternate options are available when
> >    encryption is in use, but techniques like that of data leakage
> >
> > These certainly are use cases, but you really need to acknowledge that
> > it's also a form of user surveillance.
> >
>
> This is referring to corporate networks.  The rules are a bit
> different since you get a paycheck and agree to monitoring, sign an
> acknowledgement as an employee then operate on their equipment and
> network.
>
> To help make this point more clear, I've added text into section 4.1,
> let us know if this does not address your concern:
>
> OLD:
> Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and
> network infrastructure that provide critical business services to
> their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for
> all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of
> experience for all user sessions. These responsibilities break down
> into three basic areas:
>
> NEW:
> Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and
> network infrastructure that provide critical business services to
> their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for
> all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of
> experience for all user sessions. Users typically sign agreements
> acknowledging that they are subject to monitoring while operating on
> corporate networks. Subsections of 4. Encryption for Enterprises may
> discuss techniques that access data beyond the data-link, network, and
> transport level headers typically used in SP networks since the
> corporate enterprise owns the data. These responsibilities break down
> into three basic areas:
>

To be honest, this revision seems more like it's endorsing this practice.
What
I'm looking for is an acknowledgement that this isn't really something
employees
want, but is forced upon them by the enterprise.

To take your text as a starting point, I propose:

"In many such enterprises, users are required to consent to the enterprise
monitoring all their activities as a condition of employment".



> This was one of the reasons why we felt it was important to keep
> section 4 separate.
>
> >
> >    Some DLP tools intercept traffic at the Internet gateway or proxy
> >    services with the ability to man-in-the-middle (MiTM) encrypted
> >    session traffic (HTTP/TLS).  These tools may use key words important
> >    to the enterprise including business sensitive information such as
> >    trade secrets, financial data, personally identifiable information
> >    (PII), or personal health information (PHI).  Various techniques are
> >    used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and other purposes, and
> >    are described in "Summarizing Known Attacks on TLS and DTLS"
> >    [RFC7457].
> >
> > As far as I know, the MITM techniques used by middleboxes are not
> > described in 7457.
>
> The use of an RSA static key is discussed in terms of the danger of
> using this approach in Section 2.8. I updated the text slightly to
> make this point more clear and added the section reference:
>
> Various techniques are used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and
> other purposes, and can be misused as described in "Summarizing Known
> Attacks on TLS and DTLS [RFC7457] Section 2.8.


Section 2.8 explicitly is about passive attacks, but MITM boxes are active,
so I don't think that 7457, while a valuable document, covers this.



> > You also need to cover the fact that these MITM are a threat to user
> > security because they are often so badly implemented.
>
> I think 7457 does a good job of that.  Let us know if you have
> proposed text if the above fix isn't enough for you coupled with this
> being in the Enterprise section.
>

Yeah, I still think this is missing something. Proposed new text:

The text I would propose here is:
"Aside from exposing user information to the enterprise MITM devices often
are subject to severe security defects which can lead to exposure of user
data to attackers outside the enterprise [0]. In addition, implementation
errors in middleboxes have lead to major difficulties in deploying new
versions of security protocols such as TLS [Ben17a][Ben17b][Res17a][Res17b]

[0] @inproceedings{Bursztein2017TheSecuri, title={The Security Impact of
HTTPS Interception},author={Durumeric, Zakir and Ma, Zane and Springall,
Drew and Barnes, Richard and Sullivan, Nick and Bursztein, Elie and Bailey,
Michael and Halderman, J Alex and Paxson, Vern},booktitle={Network and
Distributed Systems Symposium},year={2017},organization={Internet Society}}

   [Ben17a]   Benjamin, D., "Presentation before the TLS WG at IETF
              100", 2017,
              .

   [Ben17b]   Benjamin, D., "Additional TLS 1.3 results from Chrome",
              2017, .

    [Res17a]   Rescorla, E., "Preliminary data on Firefox TLS 1.3
              Middlebox experiment", 2017, .

   [Res17b]   Rescorla, E., "More compatibility measurement results",
              2017, .



>     The transport header encryption prevents trusted transit proxies.  It
> >    may be that the benefits of such proxies could be achieved by end to
> >
> > You don't define a "trusted transit proxy" so I don't know what this
> > means, and whether they provide any benefit, but this certainly sounds
> > euphemistic. Generally, "trusted" is not an adjective we associate
> > with network proxies operated by third parties.
>
> We added a little more text on this per Benjamin's comment.  I'm
> including the full text of the paragraph so this is not taken out of
> context as endorsing such mechanisms as the text goes on to say other
> ways it could be addressed in an encrypted Internet.  Here is the
> text.
>
>      Transport header encryption prevents the use of transit proxies
>      in center of the network and the use of some edge proxies by
> preventing
>      the proxies from taking action on the stream. It may be that the
> benefits
>      of such proxies could be achieved by end-to-end client and server
>      optimizations, distribution using CDNs, plus the ability to continue
>      connections across different access technologies (across dynamic
>      user IP addresses).
>

This text assumes that there are such benefits, but that's a point of
contention. I would be fine if you put "claimed" in front of "benefits"


>    In the best case scenario, engineers and other innovators would work
> >    to solve the problems at hand in new ways rather than prevent the use
> >    of encryption.  As stated in [RFC7258], "an appropriate balance
> >    (between network management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time
> >    as real instances of this tension are considered."
> >
> > Much of the context of this debate is about whether operators not
> > being able to do the things in this document is a problem, and this
> > seems to presume the answer.
>
> Section 8 has been overhauled in response to Deborah's comments. I see
> what you mean in the wording and that was not intended. The goal of
> the draft is to help improve adoption by talking about the issues and
> bringing them to the surface for discussion (tough discussions that
> need to happen).  Here is the current text.
>
> "As stated in [RFC7258] an appropriate balance (between network
> management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time as real instances
> of this tension are considered." Numerous operators made it clear in
> their response to this document that they fully support strong
> encryption and providing privacy for end users, this is a common goal.
> Operators recognize not all the practices documented need to be
> supported going forward, either because of the risk to end user
> privacy or alternate technologies and tools have already emerged. This
> document is intended to support network engineers and other innovators
> to work toward solving network and security management problems with
> protocol designers and application developers in new ways that
> facilitate adoption of strong encryption rather than preventing the
> use of encryption. By having the discussions on network and security
> management practices with application developers and protocol
> designers, each side of the debate can understand each others goals,
> work toward alternate solutions, and disband with practices that
> should no longer be supported. A goal of this document is to assist
> the IETF to understand some of the current practices so as to identify
> new work items for IETF-related use cases which can help facilitate
> the adoption of strong session encryption and support network and
> security management."
>

Thanks. This is a large improvement.


>    This optimization at network edges measurably improves real-time
> >    transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks with large
> >
> > Do you have a citation for this claim?
>
> The draft that this text refers to in the previous paragraph has a
> section on performance enhancing proxies, section 3.5 and is referred
> to right before this text. David Dolson was the contributor.
>

Yes. Unfortunately that document itself provides no data to support its
claims,
so they need to be regarded as speculative, and certainly not have the
word "measurably" attached to them, absent a citation.



> >    Web proxies are sometimes used to filter traffic, allowing only
> >    access to well-known sites found to be legitimate and free of malware
> >    on last check by a proxy service company.  This type of restriction
> >    is usually not noticeable in a corporate setting as the typical
> >    corporate user does not access sites that are not well-known to these
> >    tools, but may be noticeable to those in research who are unable to
> >    access colleague's individual sites or new web sites that have not
> >    yet been screened.  In situations where new sites are required for
> >    access, they can typically be added after notification by the user or
> >    proxy log alerts and review.  Home mail account access may be blocked
> >    in corporate settings to prevent another vector for malware to enter
> >    as well as for intellectual property to leak out of the network.
> >    This method remains functional with increased use of encryption and
> >    may be more effective at preventing malware from entering the
> >    network.  Web proxy solutions monitor and potentially restrict access
> >    based on the destination URL or the DNS name.  A complete URL may be
> >    used in cases where access restrictions vary for content on a
> >    particular site or for the sites hosted on a particular server.
> >
> > If you are filtering on URL and there is HTTPS involved, then you are
> > a MITM, and this is potentially noticeable to end-users. We encounter
> > this regularly when MITM proxies make mistakes in getting into our
> > trust anchor store.
>
> This is in the enterprise section where monitoring is accepted by end
> users.  What is your proposal here?  I don't see an issue with
> describing this usage.  Are you okay with this text since you also see
> this as an issue and perhaps it needs more discussion?
>

My objection is just to the claim "usually not noticeable". I would be fine
with "This type of restriction is intended to be transparent to users in a
corporate setting as the typical corporate user does not access sites
which are not well-known to these tools. However, the mechanisms
which these proxies use to do monitoring and enforcement have the
potential to cause large-scale breakage or other user-visible failures."





> Re: 0-rating.
> >    user.  This feature is impacted if encryption hides the details of
> >    the content domain from the network.
> >
> > Well, maybe. Facebook's zero rating, for instance, is IP-based.
> > https://info.internet.org/en/blog/2015/09/24/enhancing-
> security-and-privacy-of-free-basics/
>
> It seems the providers or applications offering 0-rating all operate
> differently.
> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/
> 02/verizons-mobile-video-wont-count-against-data-caps-but-netflix-will/
>
> I had more of an issue with the word feature here, so I believe I
> addressed your comment and my concern with the following:
>
>      For some implementations, zero rating is impacted if encryption
>      hides the details of the content domain from the network.
>

Fine. Thanks.


>
> >
> > S 2.2.2.
> > The presentation here seems biased given that it does not acknowledge
> > that one of the reasons that ISPs do traffic class discrimination is
> > to prioritize favored rather than disfavored traffic, regardless of
> > user preferences. I don't believe that the IETF has taken a position
> > for net neutrality, but I'm also pretty sure we don't have consensus
> > against it.
>
> How about the following text:
> This section does not consider traffic discrimination by service
> providers related to NetNeutrality, where traffic may be favored
> according to the service provider preference as opposed to the user's
> preference. These use cases are considered out-of-scope for this
> document as controversial practices.
>

Thanks.



>
> >    been impacted by increases in encrypted traffic.  Only methods
> >    keeping with the goal of balancing network management and PM
> >    mitigation in [RFC7258] should be considered in solution work
> >    resulting from this document.
> > I don't understand what the normative content of this was.
>
> There is no normative content.  Are you asking because the lowercase
> should was used?
>

Yes.




> >    upgrades before user experience declines.  For example, findings of
> >    loss and jitter in VoIP traffic can be a predictor of future customer
> >    dissatisfaction (supported by metadata from the RTP/RTCP protocol )
> >    [RFC3550], or increases in DNS response time can generally make
> >    interactive web browsing appear sluggish.  But to detect such
> >    problems, the application or service stream must first be
> >    distinguished from others.
> >
> > This is a little hard to read, but generally this information is not
> > encrypted for SRTP/SRTCP.
>
> In looking at the text, the Secure version of RTP/RTCP isn't mentioned
> and isn't cited as an issue.  The text (from Dave Dolson, we think)
> seems to say that any form of security that obscures the application
> or service info of the stream complicates analysis as VoIP, or
> analysis as .
>
> If this isn't clear enough, would you like to propose text?
>

The new text seems clear enough. Thanks.




> >    effective at providing data offload when there is a network element
> >    close to the receiver that has access to see all the content.
> > This section is also confusing in that it fails to distinguish between
> proxies
> > of this type that the user opts into from transparent proxies that just
> do this
> > service without the user's consent. Part of the purpose of encryption is
> to
> > preclude that.
>
> This reads to me as if these are transparent proxies, so I'll add that
> in to clarify the text further.  Thanks.
>

This ended up kind of confusing, at least to me:

   The primary method is
   for the mobile application to connect to a centralized server as a
   transparent proxy (user does not opt-in), with the data channel
   between the client application and the server using compression to
   minimize bandwidth utilization.  The effectiveness of such systems
   depends on the server having access to unencrypted data flows.

My understanding is that there are two major ways to do compression
for endpoints:

1. Single-ended (where you just compress the data, often by degrading
the user's experience, as by downscaling), but it's ultimately compatible
with the client.
2. Double-ended (where you modify both the endpoint and the proxy)
and then do some incompatible form of compression (e.g., transcoding
or doing a non-widely supported compression mechanism).

Which one of these are you referring to?




> >    created from the intercepting device to the client's destination,
> >    this is an opt-in strategy for the client.  Changes to TLSv1.3 do not
> >    impact this more invasive method of interception, where this has the
> > I don't understand the cite to TLS 1.3 here. None of this is presently
> affected
> > by 1.3.
>
> This is saying that changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more
> invasive method of interception explicitly, so I believe the text
> already addresses your point.  If not, could you please suggest text?
>

Upon another read, this seems OK.



>    endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to offer parental
> >    control.
> > This section makes it seem like there are no other methods that allow for
> > parental control, but that's not true. There are parental control
> mechanisms
> > which rely on MITM proxies or application interfacing.
>
> The section NOW starts off with the following in the first paragraph
> that should address your concern:
>
>     This section is intended to document a selection of current
>     content blocking practices...
>
> I think this came from Benjamin's review - the section is not
> exhaustive (neither is the draft as it was contribution driven).
>
> This text in the first paragraph should also help with your point:
>     Content blocking may also happen at endpoints or at the edge
>     of enterprise networks, but those are not addressed in this section.
>
> At the edge is a proxy/gateway MiTM solution.
>
> The next paragraph talks about proxies in the core or edge of a
> network, these are also MiTM devices, so I think that's well covered.
>
> The following sentence in this section calls this out as MiTM behavior
> explicitly:
>
>     Changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more invasive method of
>      interception, that has the potential to expose every HTTPS
>      session to an active man in the middle (MitM).
>
> I ammended the following sentence in the last paragraph in case that helps
> you:
>
> OLD:
> This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint.
>
> NEW:
> This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint or as a
> proxy service.


Thanks.



> >    HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this prevents mobile carriers
> >    from intercepting the traffic and performing an HTTP redirect.  As a
> >    result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
> > Yes, stopping traffic redirection is actually one of the major design
> purposes
> > of HTTPS.
>
> Sure, there's not an issue other than the practice needs to change and
> they need to figure out better ways to notify customers.  It's raised
> here in case better ideas can be developed and some operator may look
> at the reference (RFC6108).  Adam and Al were chatting on this as a
> result of his review, so hopefully they make a little progress.
>
> I added the word appropriately as I think that will address your
> concern.  The operators just want efficient ways to notify their
> customers, it doesn't have to be done this way, but they raised the
> issue because they don't know what to do and I believe, want help.
>
> NEW:
> When the HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this appropriately
> prevents mobile carriers from intercepting the traffic and performing
> an HTTP redirect.
>

Thanks.



>
> >
> >    to the customer and additional overhead to the mobile network service
> >    provider.
> > This section is basically a commercial for this practice. It needs to
> > acknowledge that it's actually much closer to IETF consensus that it's a
> bad
> > practice.
>
> This text was already changed as follows:
>
>      The customer may need to call customer care to find out the
>      reason and/or resolve the issue, possibly extending the time
>      needed to restore their network access.
> >
> >    headers to accomplish the, sometimes considered controversial,
> >    functions above.
> > Again, this is precisely the form of attack that HTTPS is intended to
> prevent.
>
> The following paragraph was added per conversations with Christian and
> Martin.  Hopefully, this also addreses your concern.  The paragraph
> mentioned was amended as well.
>
> NEW:
>     Guidance from the Internet Architecture Board has been provided
>      in [RFC8165] on Design Considerations for Metadata Insertion.
>      The guidance asserts that designs that share metadata only by
>      explicit actions at the host are preferable to designs in which
>      middleboxes insert metadata. Alternate notification methods that
>      follow this and other guidance would be helpful to mobile carriers.
>

Thanks.




>    perform SSL/TLS decryption are impacted by the increased use of
> >    encryption that prevents interception.
> > I don't really understand what this text means. What is "use of
> encryption that
> > prevents interception" in the context of tools which already do
> decryption?
>
> This reads clear enough to me, but would you be happier with:
>
> s/impacted/no longer functions/
>
> It's referring to encryption that prevents interception, not talking
> about proxies which still can be used technically.  This change has
> not been made yet, so please let us know if this helps or if you have
> another suggestion.
>

Is this mostly referring to passive datacenter encryption? If so, perhaps
I can provide a reword.


>    be possible when TLS or TCPcrypt is in use since the TCP header
> >    information is exposed leaving the 5-tuple accessible.  The use TCP
> >    session multiplexing of an IP layer encyption, e.g.  IPsec, that only
> > I'm not sure if this is correct. What precisely do you mean by "TCP
> > session multiplexing"? A cite would be helpful here.
>
> It's described in section 4.1.3.2:
>
>     TCP pipelining/session multiplexing used mainly by
>     middleboxes today allows for multiple end user sessions
>     to share the same TCP connection.
>

Thanks.





> >    traffic cannot be intercepted, encouraging alternate options such as
> >    performing these functions at the edge.
> > I'm not seeing the relevance of this. Who is proposing solutions in which
> > encrypted traffic cannot be intercepted at the outgoing network edge.
>
> The only option here for this described usage is a proxy where the TLS
> 1.3 session is terminated and restarted.


Yep. That's basically true in TLS 1.2 as well.



>   If you look back to slides
> from Stephen on PM and advancements resulting from PM being considered
> an attack, one of the ideas to make TLS stronger was DANE
> authentication to provide a way to know you truly have an e2e session
> - a very good thing.  The draft on the last telechat:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-dnssec-chain-extension/
> that should be approved soon is able to do this with some middleboxes,
> but I'm not sure what happens with a proxy - so I asked the editors
> for clarification.  If this just doesn't work and the session proceeds
> without this extension, there is nothing to notify on.  If this is
> something proxies should be aware of to allow through unhampered, it
> would be good to include a little more text.  For instance, in
> corporate networks certain traffic with PII, like financial
> transactions, are not proxied and would benefit from using this
> extension, giving their users assurance in the security of their
> sessions.
>

Thanks for the explanation. I think this gets to an important point: it's
true that
there are a variety of protocol mechanisms which one could put in place
which
would block MITM proxies. However, we could *already* do that because the
clients are often aware in many cases of when MITM proxies are in use
(because the certs are pinned). However, they still let those connections
go through because the users would be very sad if they couldn't get
to Facebook. So I would anticipate the same dynamic here.



> >    owing to concealment of critical headers and payloads.  Many forms of
> >    enterprise performance management may be similarly affected.
> > Again, this is sort of transparent caching is an anti-pattern, so this
> document
> > ought to acknowledge that,
>
> I added the following text at the end of this paragraph to address your
> concern:
> It should be noted that transparent caching is considered an anti-pattern.
>
> If you have alternate text to suggest, please do


 This text looks good to me.





> >    network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
> >    extension, they may not find one.  The SNI Encryption in TLS Through
> >    Tunneling [I-D.ietf-tls-sni-encryption] draft has been adopted by the
> > This doesn't really follow. I mean they "may not" but overwhelmingly
> they will
>
> I'm not sure when the text was changed, but it already has been changed
> from.
>
> OLD:
>
>    This information is only visible if the client is populating the
>    Server Name Indication extension.  This need not be done, but may be
>    done as per TLS standard and as stated above this has been
>    implemented by all major browsers.  Therefore, even if existing
>    network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
>    extension, they may not find one.
>
> NEW:
> This information is only available if the client populates the Server
> Name Indication extension. Doing so is an optional part of the TLS
> standard and as stated above this has been implemented by all major
> browsers. Due to its optional nature, though, existing network filters
> that examine a TLS ClientHello for a SNI extension cannot expect to
> always find one.
>

I continue to believe that this doesn't accurately represent the situation.
Yes, it's technically true that you can't 100% count on it, but you almost
always get it, so much so that an enterprise could just block anyone
who doesn't provide SNI. o

-Ekr


> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>

--94eb2c06273839cfbe056621997c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Thanks for the updated draft. Some responses below.

On Mon, Feb 19,=
 2018 at 12:11 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.iet=
f@gmail.com> wrote:


>

> DISCUSS

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 session encryption that deployed more easily instead of n=
o

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 encryption.

>

> I think I understand what you are saying here, but the term

> "breakable" seems very unfortunate, especially in the contex=
t of this

> document. The only such shift I am aware of that has received

> acceptance in IETF is one from always requiring fully authenticated
> encryption to allowing unauthenticated encryption, which you document<=
br>
> in the next paragraph. I recognize that there are other perspectives
> (e.g., those in draft-rhrd) but those are pretty far from IETF

> consenus. Accordingly, I think you should remove this sentence.



Opportunistic security was well discussed, so that was likely top of=


mind for you when reading this draft. However there are other areas

where the IETF decided breakable encryption was better than none in

recent years.=C2=A0 Another adopted and published example is in the mail
community.=C2=A0 Deprecating MD5 was deemed to be too hard because of

support in a particular library.=C2=A0 We had lengthy discussions about

this for RFC7627 (see sect 6.2) and related drafts, now published

RFCs.

I continue to think that the term=
 "breakable" is very unfortunate here
(and of course, M=
D5 isn't breakable "encryption").

It=
 seems to me that there are four areas where one might think that
compromises ought to be made:

1. Not deploying co=
msec at all because it's too hard (you allude to this
later).=

2. Not deprecating weak algorithms because they are already depl=
oyed
(the case of MD5 and the like)
3. Rolling out =
unauthenticated or opportunistic encryption.
4. Rolling out weak =
algorithms rather than strong ones.

I agree we do =
1-3, but my experience is we try pretty hard to avoid #4, and
tha=
t's how I read "breakable encryption". It's also generall=
y not easier
to deploy. I think a better way to phrase this would=
 be to say something like:

"Perspectives on e=
ncryption paradigms have shifted over time to incorporporate
ease=
 of deployment as a high priority, and balance that against providing the
maximum possible level of security regardless of deployment consid=
erations"



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 motivation outside of privacy and pervasive monitoring th=
at are

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 driving end-to-end encryption for these content providers=
.

>

> This section seems kind of confusing, at least as applied to

> HTTP. There are three kinds of cache in HTTP:

>

> - Reverse proxy caches (the kind CDNs run)

> - Explicit forward proxy caches

> - "Transparent" intercepting caches

>

> The first of these move to HTTPS just fine and that's typically ho=
w

> CDNs do it.=C2=A0 Explicit forward proxy caches are largely going away=
, but

> part of the point of this kind of end-to-end encryption is to hide

> data from those caches.



Sure, that point was made in the draft and cleared up a little furth=
er

from Benjamin K's review.=C2=A0 The business risk associated with not
controlling your content was more explicitly stated for CDNs who have

moved to an e2e approach.



Here's the updated sentence:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The business risk of losing control of content is a motivation=
 outside

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of privacy and pervasive monitoring tha=
t are driving end-to-end

=C2=A0 =C2=A0encryption for these content providers.



> Transparent intercepting caches that the=
 user

> didn't opt into are a bad thing, so having them go away is a posit=
ive.



The text says authorized parties, so this is referring to caches whe=
re

there is an agreement in place for this usage.

<=
div>It says "authorized parties acting on their behalf", but it&#=
39;s not clear to
me on whose behalf. There is a sharp distinctio=
n here between the
network operator and the user. Who did you hav=
e in mind?

=C2=A0
=C2=A0 CDN's that wish to

block this behavior have the option to require e2e.=C2=A0 That trend alone<=
br>
may be enough to kill this type of service offering.=C2=A0 I don't see =
why

it shouldn't be mentioned in terms of it's current use.=C2=A0 What =
change

are you looking to see here?

I see you =
added the following text

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It shou=
ld be noted that caching was first supported in [RFC1945] and
=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0continued in the recent update of "Hypertext Transfer Protoc=
ol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(HTTP/1.1): Caching" in [RFC7234].

I would rewrite this:

=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0It should be noted that explicit caching was first supported in [RFC1=
945] and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0continued in the recent update of "Hypertext=
 Transfer Protocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(HTTP/1.1): Caching" in [RFC7234].=
 Some operators also operate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transparent caches which neit=
her the user nor the origin opt-in to.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The use of these ca=
ches is controversial within IETF and is generally
=C2=A0 =C2=A0preclud=
ed by the use of HTTPS.




=C2=A0



>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 document existing practices, the development of IETF prot=
ocols

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804]=
.

>

> This is pretty opaque in this context. It should explicitly state that=


> the IETF's position is that we do not engineer for these use cases=
,

> not just to cite the RFCs.



We can add the following (or suggest something else):



"and explicitly do not support tools and methods that could be used
for wiretapping and censorship."

T=
hanks.
=C2=A0



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 based billing, or for other reasons, possibly considered<=
br>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 inappropriate by some.=C2=A0 See RFC7754 [RFC7754] for a =
survey of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Internet filtering techniques and motivations.=C2=A0 This=
 section is

>

> I don't think this accurately represents the RFC, which makes clea=
r

> that the IAB consensus is that filtering is bad:

>

> " From a technical perspective, there are no perfect or even good=


> solutions -- there is only least bad.=C2=A0 On that front, we posit th=
at a

> hybrid approach that combines endpoint-based filtering with network
> filtering may prove least damaging.=C2=A0 An endpoint may choose to
> participate in a filtering regime in exchange for the network

> providing broader unfiltered access."



I've added the following to the end of the sentence as the RFC i=
s too

long to repeat what is already in 7754:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0"and the IAB consensus on those mechanisms."

Thanks.



>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 detect or prevent attacks as well as to guarantee service=
 level

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 expectations.=C2=A0 In some cases, alternate options are =
available when

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 encryption is in use, but techniques like that of data le=
akage

>

> These certainly are use cases, but you really need to acknowledge that=


> it's also a form of user surveillance.

>



This is referring to corporate networks.=C2=A0 The rules are a bit
different since you get a paycheck and agree to monitoring, sign an

acknowledgement as an employee then operate on their equipment and

network.



To help make this point more clear, I've added text into section 4.1,
let us know if this does not address your concern:



OLD:

Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and

network infrastructure that provide critical business services to

their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for

all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of

experience for all user sessions. These responsibilities break down

into three basic areas:



NEW:

Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and

network infrastructure that provide critical business services to

their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for

all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of

experience for all user sessions. Users typically sign agreements

acknowledging that they are subject to monitoring while operating on

corporate networks. Subsections of 4. Encryption for Enterprises may

discuss techniques that access data beyond the data-link, network, and

transport level headers typically used in SP networks since the

corporate enterprise owns the data. These responsibilities break down

into three basic areas:

To be honest, t=
his revision seems more like it's endorsing this practice. What
I'm looking for is an acknowledgement that this isn't really som=
ething employees
want, but is forced upon them by the enterprise.=


To take your text as a starting point, I propose:=


"In many such enterprises, users are require=
d to consent to the enterprise
monitoring all their activities as=
 a condition of employment".

=C2=A0

This was one of the reasons why we felt it was important to keep

section 4 separate.



>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some DLP tools intercept traffic at the Internet gateway =
or proxy

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 services with the ability to man-in-the-middle (MiTM) enc=
rypted

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 session traffic (HTTP/TLS).=C2=A0 These tools may use key=
 words important

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the enterprise including business sensitive informatio=
n such as

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 trade secrets, financial data, personally identifiable in=
formation

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (PII), or personal health information (PHI).=C2=A0 Variou=
s techniques are

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and other pur=
poses, and

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are described in "Summarizing Known Attacks on TLS a=
nd DTLS"

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC7457].

>

> As far as I know, the MITM techniques used by middleboxes are not

> described in 7457.



The use of an RSA static key is discussed in terms of the danger of<=
br>
using this approach in Section 2.8. I updated the text slightly to

make this point more clear and added the section reference:



Various techniques are used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and

other purposes, and can be misused as described in "Summarizing=
 Known

Attacks on TLS and DTLS [RFC7457] Section 2.8.

<=
div>Section 2.8 explicitly is about passive attacks, but MITM boxes are act=
ive,
so I don't think that 7457, while a valuable document, c=
overs this.

=C2=A0

> You also need to cover the fact that these MITM are a threat to user
> security because they are often so badly implemented.



I think 7457 does a good job of that.=C2=A0 Let us know if you have<=
br>
proposed text if the above fix isn't enough for you coupled with this
being in the Enterprise section.

Yeah, =
I still think this is missing something. Proposed new text:

<=
/div>
The text I would propose here is:
"Aside from expo=
sing user information to the enterprise MITM devices often
are su=
bject to severe security defects which can lead to exposure of user
data to attackers outside the enterprise [0]. In addition, implementatio=
n
errors in middleboxes have lead to major difficulties in deploy=
ing new
versions of security protocols such as TLS [Ben17a][Ben17=
b][Res17a][Res17b]

[0]=C2=A0@inproceedings{Bursztein2017TheSecuri, title=3D{The Security Impact of =
HTTPS Interception},author=3D{Durumeric, Zakir and Ma, Zane and Springall, =
Drew and Barnes, Richard and Sullivan, Nick and Bursztein, Elie and Bailey,=
 Michael and Halderman, J Alex and Paxson, Vern},booktitle=3D{Network and D=
istributed Systems Symposium},year=3D{2017},organization=3D{Internet Societ=
y}}

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Ben17a]=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
Benjamin, D., "Presentation before the TLS WG at IETF
=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 100", 2017,
=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting=
/100/materials/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 slides-100-tls-sessa-tls13/>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
[Ben17b]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Benjamin, D., "Additional TLS 1.3 results from Ch=
rome",
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017=
, <https:=
//www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 msg25168.html>.

<=
/div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Res17a]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Rescorla, E., "Preliminar=
y data on Firefox TLS 1.3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Middlebox experiment", 2017, <https://www.ietf.org/mail-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 archive/web/tls/current/msg25091.html>.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Res17b]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Rescorla, E., "=
More compatibility measurement results",
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017, <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/cur=
rent/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 msg251=
79.html>.



>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0The transport header encryption prevents trusted transit proxies.=
=C2=A0 It

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 may be that the benefits of such proxies could be achieve=
d by end to

>

> You don't define a "trusted transit proxy" so I don'=
t know what this

> means, and whether they provide any benefit, but this certainly sounds=


> euphemistic. Generally, "trusted" is not an adjective we ass=
ociate

> with network proxies operated by third parties.



We added a little more text on this per Benjamin's comment.=C2=
=A0 I'm

including the full text of the paragraph so this is not taken out of

context as endorsing such mechanisms as the text goes on to say other

ways it could be addressed in an encrypted Internet.=C2=A0 Here is the

text.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Transport header encryption prevents the use of transit=
 proxies

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in center of the network and the use of some edge proxi=
es by preventing

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proxies from taking action on the stream. It may be=
 that the benefits

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of such proxies could be achieved by end-to-end client =
and server

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimizations, distribution using CDNs, plus the abilit=
y to continue

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0connections across different access technologies (acros=
s dynamic

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0user IP addresses).

This text assumes that there are such benefits, but that's a point of<=
/div>
contention. I would be fine if you put "claimed" in fro=
nt of "benefits"



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In the best case scenario, engineers and other innovators=
 would work

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to solve the problems at hand in new ways rather than pre=
vent the use

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of encryption.=C2=A0 As stated in [RFC7258], "an app=
ropriate balance

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (between network management and PM mitigations) will emer=
ge over time

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as real instances of this tension are considered."
>

> Much of the context of this debate is about whether operators not

> being able to do the things in this document is a problem, and this
> seems to presume the answer.



Section 8 has been overhauled in response to Deborah's comments.=
 I see

what you mean in the wording and that was not intended. The goal of

the draft is to help improve adoption by talking about the issues and

bringing them to the surface for discussion (tough discussions that

need to happen).=C2=A0 Here is the current text.



"As stated in [RFC7258] an appropriate balance (between network

management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time=
 as real instances

of this tension are considered." Numerous operators made it cle=
ar in

their response to this document that they fully support strong

encryption and providing privacy for end users, this is a common goal.

Operators recognize not all the practices documented need to be

supported going forward, either because of the risk to end user

privacy or alternate technologies and tools have already emerged. This

document is intended to support network engineers and other innovators

to work toward solving network and security management problems with

protocol designers and application developers in new ways that

facilitate adoption of strong encryption rather than preventing the

use of encryption. By having the discussions on network and security

management practices with application developers and protocol

designers, each side of the debate can understand each others goals,

work toward alternate solutions, and disband with practices that

should no longer be supported. A goal of this document is to assist

the IETF to understand some of the current practices so as to identify

new work items for IETF-related use cases which can help facilitate

the adoption of strong session encryption and support network and

security management."

Thanks. This=
 is a large improvement.



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This optimization at network edges measurably improves re=
al-time

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks w=
ith large

>

> Do you have a citation for this claim?



The draft that this text refers to in the previous paragraph has a
section on performance enhancing proxies, section 3.5 and is referred

to right before this text. David Dolson was the contributor.

Yes. Unfortunately that document itself provides no d=
ata to support its claims,
so they need to be regarded as specula=
tive, and certainly not have the
word "measurably" atta=
ched to them, absent a citation.

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Web proxies are sometimes used to filter traffic, allowin=
g only

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 access to well-known sites found to be legitimate and fre=
e of malware

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on last check by a proxy service company.=C2=A0 This type=
 of restriction

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is usually not noticeable in a corporate setting as the t=
ypical

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 corporate user does not access sites that are not well-kn=
own to these

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tools, but may be noticeable to those in research who are=
 unable to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 access colleague's individual sites or new web sites =
that have not

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 yet been screened.=C2=A0 In situations where new sites ar=
e required for

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 access, they can typically be added after notification by=
 the user or

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proxy log alerts and review.=C2=A0 Home mail account acce=
ss may be blocked

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in corporate settings to prevent another vector for malwa=
re to enter

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as well as for intellectual property to leak out of the n=
etwork.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This method remains functional with increased use of encr=
yption and

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 may be more effective at preventing malware from entering=
 the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 network.=C2=A0 Web proxy solutions monitor and potentiall=
y restrict access

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 based on the destination URL or the DNS name.=C2=A0 A com=
plete URL may be

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 used in cases where access restrictions vary for content =
on a

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 particular site or for the sites hosted on a particular s=
erver.

>

> If you are filtering on URL and there is HTTPS involved, then you are<=
br>
> a MITM, and this is potentially noticeable to end-users. We encounter<=
br>
> this regularly when MITM proxies make mistakes in getting into our

> trust anchor store.



This is in the enterprise section where monitoring is accepted by en=
d

users.=C2=A0 What is your proposal here?=C2=A0 I don't see an issue wit=
h

describing this usage.=C2=A0 Are you okay with this text since you also see=


this as an issue and perhaps it needs more discussion?

My objection is just to the claim "usually not noticea=
ble". I would be fine
with "This type of restriction is=
 intended to be transparent to users in a
corporate setting as th=
e typical corporate user does not access sites
which are not well=
-known to these tools. However, the mechanisms
which these proxie=
s use to do monitoring and enforcement have the
potential to caus=
e large-scale breakage or other user-visible failures."

=






> Re: 0-rating.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 user.=C2=A0 This feature is impacted if encryption hides =
the details of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the content domain from the network.

>

> Well, maybe. Facebook's zero rating, for instance, is IP-based.
> http=
s://info.internet.org/en/blog/2015/09/24/enhancing-security-and-p=
rivacy-of-free-basics/



It seems the providers or applications offering 0-rating all operate=


differently.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/=
2016/02/verizons-mobile-video-wont-count-against-data-caps-but-netflix-will/



I had more of an issue with the word feature here, so I believe I

addressed your comment and my concern with the following:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For some implementations, zero rating is impacted if en=
cryption

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hides the details of the content=
 domain from the network.

Fine. =
Thanks.
=C2=A0



>

> S 2.2.2.

> The presentation here seems biased given that it does not acknowledge<=
br>
> that one of the reasons that ISPs do traffic class discrimination is
> to prioritize favored rather than disfavored traffic, regardless of
> user preferences. I don't believe that the IETF has taken a positi=
on

> for net neutrality, but I'm also pretty sure we don't have con=
sensus

> against it.



How about the following text:

This section does not consider traffic discrimination by service

providers related to NetNeutrality, where traffic may be favored

according to the service provider preference as opposed to the user's
preference. These use cases are considered out-of-scope for this

document as controversial practices.

Th=
anks.

=C2=A0


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
been impacted by increases in encrypted traffic.=C2=A0 Only methods

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 keeping with the goal of balancing network management and=
 PM

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mitigation in [RFC7258] should be considered in solution =
work

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 resulting from this document.

> I don't understand what the normative content of this was.



There is no normative content.=C2=A0 Are you asking because the lowe=
rcase

should was used?

Yes.
=C2=A0<=
/div>

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 upgrades before user experience declines.=C2=A0 For examp=
le, findings of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 loss and jitter in VoIP traffic can be a predictor of fut=
ure customer

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dissatisfaction (supported by metadata from the RTP/RTCP =
protocol )

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC3550], or increases in DNS response time can generall=
y make

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interactive web browsing appear sluggish.=C2=A0 But to de=
tect such

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 problems, the application or service stream must first be=


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 distinguished from others.

>

> This is a little hard to read, but generally this information is not
> encrypted for SRTP/SRTCP.



In looking at the text, the Secure version of RTP/RTCP isn't men=
tioned

and isn't cited as an issue.=C2=A0 The text (from Dave Dolson, we think=
)

seems to say that any form of security that obscures the application

or service info of the stream complicates analysis as VoIP, or

analysis as <something else>.



If this isn't clear enough, would you like to propose text?

The new text seems clear enough. Thanks.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 effective at providing data offload when there is a netwo=
rk element

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 close to the receiver that has access to see all the cont=
ent.

> This section is also confusing in that it fails to distinguish between=
 proxies

> of this type that the user opts into from transparent proxies that jus=
t do this

> service without the user's consent. Part of the purpose of encrypt=
ion is to

> preclude that.



This reads to me as if these are transparent proxies, so I'll ad=
d that

in to clarify the text further.=C2=A0 Thanks.

This ended up kind of confusing, at least to me:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The primary method is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for th=
e mobile application to connect to a centralized server as a
=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0transparent proxy (user does not opt-in), with the data channel
=C2=A0 =C2=A0between the client application and the server using c=
ompression to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0minimize bandwidth utilization.=C2=A0 =
The effectiveness of such systems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0depends on the ser=
ver having access to unencrypted data flows.

My un=
derstanding is that there are two major ways to do compression
<=
div>for endpoints:

1. Single-ended (where you just=
 compress the data, often by degrading
the user's experience,=
 as by downscaling), but it's ultimately compatible
with the =
client.
2. Double-ended (where you modify both the endpoint and t=
he proxy)
and then do some incompatible form of compression (e.g.=
, transcoding
or doing a non-widely supported compression mechani=
sm).

Which one of these are you referring to?


=C2=A0=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 created from the intercepting device to the client's =
destination,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is an opt-in strategy for the client.=C2=A0 Changes =
to TLSv1.3 do not

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 impact this more invasive method of interception, where t=
his has the

> I don't understand the cite to TLS 1.3 here. None of this is prese=
ntly affected

> by 1.3.



This is saying that changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more

invasive method of interception explicitly, so I believe the text

already addresses your point.=C2=A0 If not, could you please suggest text?<=
br>

Upon another read, this seems OK.
=

=C2=A0



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to =
offer parental

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 control.

> This section makes it seem like there are no other methods that allow =
for

> parental control, but that's not true. There are parental control =
mechanisms

> which rely on MITM proxies or application interfacing.



The section NOW starts off with the following in the first paragraph=


that should address your concern:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This section is intended to document a selection of current
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 content blocking practices...



I think this came from Benjamin's review - the section is not

exhaustive (neither is the draft as it was contribution driven).



This text in the first paragraph should also help with your point:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Content blocking may also happen at endpoints or at the edge<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of enterprise networks, but those are not addressed in this s=
ection.



At the edge is a proxy/gateway MiTM solution.



The next paragraph talks about proxies in the core or edge of a

network, these are also MiTM devices, so I think that's well covered.


The following sentence in this section calls this out as MiTM behavior

explicitly:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more invasive method of=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interception, that has the potential to expose e=
very HTTPS

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0session to an active man in the middle (MitM).



I ammended the following sentence in the last paragraph in case that helps =
you:



OLD:

This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint.



NEW:

This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint or as a

proxy service.

Thanks.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this prevents mob=
ile carriers

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from intercepting the traffic and performing an HTTP redi=
rect.=C2=A0 As a

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypt=
ed requests,

> Yes, stopping traffic redirection is actually one of the major design =
purposes

> of HTTPS.



Sure, there's not an issue other than the practice needs to chan=
ge and

they need to figure out better ways to notify customers.=C2=A0 It's rai=
sed

here in case better ideas can be developed and some operator may look

at the reference (RFC6108).=C2=A0 Adam and Al were chatting on this as a
result of his review, so hopefully they make a little progress.



I added the word appropriately as I think that will address your

concern.=C2=A0 The operators just want efficient ways to notify their

customers, it doesn't have to be done this way, but they raised the

issue because they don't know what to do and I believe, want help.



NEW:

When the HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this appropriately

prevents mobile carriers from intercepting the traff=
ic and performing

an HTTP redirect.

Thanks.
<=
div>
=C2=A0



>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the customer and additio=
nal overhead to the mobile network service

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provider.

> This section is basically a commercial for this practice. It needs to<=
br>
> acknowledge that it's actually much closer to IETF consensus that =
it's a bad

> practice.



This text was already changed as follows:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The customer may need to call customer care to find out=
 the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reason and/or resolve the issue, possibly extending the=
 time

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0needed to restore their network access.

>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 headers to accomplish the, sometimes considered controver=
sial,

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 functions above.

> Again, this is precisely the form of attack that HTTPS is intended to =
prevent.



The following paragraph was added per conversations with Christian a=
nd

Martin.=C2=A0 Hopefully, this also addreses your concern.=C2=A0 The paragra=
ph

mentioned was amended as well.



NEW:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Guidance from the Internet Architecture Board has been provid=
ed

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC8165] on Design Considerations for Metadata Inse=
rtion.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The guidance asserts that designs that share metadata o=
nly by

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explicit actions at the host are preferable to designs =
in which

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0middleboxes insert metadata. Alternate notification met=
hods that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0follow this and other guidance would be helpful to mobi=
le carriers.

Thanks.

=C2=A0



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 perform SSL/TLS decryption are impacted by the increased =
use of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 encryption that prevents interception.

> I don't really understand what this text means. What is "use =
of encryption that

> prevents interception" in the context of tools which already do d=
ecryption?



This reads clear enough to me, but would you be happier with:



s/impacted/no longer functions/



It's referring to encryption that prevents interception, not talking
about proxies which still can be used technically.=C2=A0 This change has
not been made yet, so please let us know if this helps or if you have

another suggestion.

Is this mostly refe=
rring to passive datacenter encryption? If so, perhaps
I can prov=
ide a reword.



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be possible when TLS or TCPcrypt is in use since the TCP =
header

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 information is exposed leaving the 5-tuple accessible.=C2=
=A0 The use TCP

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 session multiplexing of an IP layer encyption, e.g.=C2=A0=
 IPsec, that only

> I'm not sure if this is correct. What precisely do you mean by &qu=
ot;TCP

> session multiplexing"? A cite would be helpful here.



It's described in section 4.1.3.2:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TCP pipelining/session multiplexing used mainly by

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 middleboxes today allows for multiple end user sessions

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to share the same TCP connection.
<=
/span>

Thanks.


=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic cannot be intercepted, encouraging alternate opti=
ons such as

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 performing these functions at the edge.

> I'm not seeing the relevance of this. Who is proposing solutions i=
n which

> encrypted traffic cannot be intercepted at the outgoing network edge.<=
br>


The only option here for this described usage is a proxy where the T=
LS

1.3 session is terminated and restarted.

Ye=
p. That's basically true in TLS 1.2 as well.

=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 If you=
 look back to slides

from Stephen on PM and advancements resulting from PM being considered

an attack, one of the ideas to make TLS stronger was DANE

authentication to provide a way to know you truly have an e2e session

- a very good thing.=C2=A0 The draft on the last telechat:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/draft-ietf-tls-dnssec-chain-extension/

that should be approved soon is able to do this with some middleboxes,

but I'm not sure what happens with a proxy - so I asked the editors

for clarification.=C2=A0 If this just doesn't work and the session proc=
eeds

without this extension, there is nothing to notify on.=C2=A0 If this is

something proxies should be aware of to allow through unhampered, it

would be good to include a little more text.=C2=A0 For instance, in

corporate networks certain traffic with PII, like financial

transactions, are not proxied and would benefit from using this

extension, giving their users assurance in the security of their

sessions.

Thanks for the explanation. I=
 think this gets to an important point: it's true that
there =
are a variety of protocol mechanisms which one could put in place which
would block MITM proxies. However, we could *already* do that becaus=
e the
clients are often aware in many cases of when MITM proxies =
are in use
(because the certs are pinned). However, they still le=
t those connections
go through because the users would be very sa=
d if they couldn't get
to Facebook. So I would anticipate the=
 same dynamic here.




>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 owing to concealment of critical headers and payloads.=C2=
=A0 Many forms of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 enterprise performance management may be similarly affect=
ed.

> Again, this is sort of transparent caching is an anti-pattern, so this=
 document

> ought to acknowledge that,



I added the following text at the end of this paragraph to address y=
our concern:

It should be noted that transparent caching is considered an anti-pattern.<=
br>


If you have alternate text to suggest, please do

=C2=A0This text looks good to me.


=


=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indicat=
ion

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 extension, they may not find one.=C2=A0 The SNI Encryptio=
n in TLS Through

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tunneling [I-D.ietf-tls-sni-encryption] draft has been ad=
opted by the

> This doesn't really follow. I mean they "may not" but ov=
erwhelmingly they will



I'm not sure when the text was changed, but it already has been =
changed from.



OLD:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0This information is only visible if the client is populating t=
he

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Server Name Indication extension.=C2=A0 This need not be done,=
 but may be

=C2=A0 =C2=A0done as per TLS standard and as stated above this has been

=C2=A0 =C2=A0implemented by all major browsers.=C2=A0 Therefore, even if ex=
isting

=C2=A0 =C2=A0network filters look out for seeing a S=
erver Name Indication

=C2=A0 =C2=A0extension, they may not find one.



NEW:

This information is only available if the client populates the Server

Name Indication extension. Doing so is an optional part of the TLS

standard and as stated above this has been implemented by all major

browsers. Due to its optional nature, though, existing network filters

that examine a TLS ClientHello for a SNI extension cannot expect to

always find one.

I continue to believe =
that this doesn't accurately represent the situation.
Yes, it=
's technically true that you can't 100% count on it, but you almost=

always get it, so much so that an enterprise could just block an=
yone
who doesn't provide SNI. o

-Ekr=





>

>







--



Best regards,

Kathleen





--94eb2c06273839cfbe056621997c--


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On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:21 AM, Joe Touch  wrote:

>
>
> On Feb 25, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Christopher Morrow 
> wrote:
>
> I am very skeptical of the justification for performance enhancing
>> proxies in section 2.2.4. It develops the idea that having a form of
>>
>
> These are primarily 'satellite games' proxies.. that early-ack and such t=
o
> make the long satellite portion of the transport seem short(er).
> They only REALLY need to see TCP headers, so ipsec is problematic, but no=
t
> (probably) tls.
>
>
> Enabling TCP Hijacking should never be justification for =E2=80=9Cneeding=
=E2=80=9D to
> avoid transport header privacy, IMO.
>
> Games or other apps that =E2=80=9Cneed=E2=80=9D such support ought to =E2=
=80=9Cneed=E2=80=9D to explicitly
> permit it by peering their security with those proxies directly.
>


apologies: "games" in my reply could better be called: "shennanigans" ...
not games like farmville, but messy things the satellite ( in the past
anyway) providers would do to make tcp appear to perform better in their
environment.

Yes, people COULD ipsec around that problem.
Yes, people COULD md5-tcp around that problem. (tcp-ao, ha!)

generally none of that has happened though.

--089e0832d9e0a87e6705662225a1
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On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:21 AM, Joe Touch <touch@s=
trayalpha.com> wrote:


On Feb 25,=
 2018, at 8:51 PM, Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

<=
/div>
I am ver=
y skeptical of the justification for performance enhancing

proxies in section 2.2.4. It develops the idea that having a form of

These are primarily 'satellite games'=
 proxies.. that early-ack and such to make the long satellite portion of th=
e transport seem short(er).
They only REALLY need to see TCP head=
ers, so ipsec is problematic, but not (probably) tls.

Enabling TCP Hijacking should never be justification for=
 =E2=80=9Cneeding=E2=80=9D to avoid transport header privacy, IMO.=C2=A0

Games or other apps that =E2=80=9Cneed=E2=80=9D such=
 support ought to =E2=80=9Cneed=E2=80=9D to explicitly permit it by peering=
 their security with those proxies directly. =C2=A0


apologies: "games" in my reply could better be called: "s=
hennanigans" ... not games like farmville, but messy things the satell=
ite ( in the past anyway) providers would do to make tcp appear to perform =
better in their environment.

Yes, peopl=
e COULD ipsec around that problem.
Yes, peo=
ple COULD md5-tcp around that problem. (tcp-ao, ha!)

generally none of that has h=
appened though.


--089e0832d9e0a87e6705662225a1--


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF 
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:03:16 -0600
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This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm 0
for 2 so far today.

Are we still tuning text in this draft?

https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.

If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
Alternate Ballot on Thursday.

I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely), but I
don't know what we're doing.

I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as IESG
scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other people
have different expectations.

Spencer

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This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. A=
t least, I'm 0 for 2 so far today.

Are we still tuni=
ng text in this draft?=C2=A0

https://www.ietf.org/standards/=
process/iesg-ballots/ says=C2=A0that the alternate balloting procedure =
is an up/down vote - we either agree to publish, or agree to send a documen=
t off for rework.

If we're still resolving com=
ments, one can imagine that we'd get to a one-Discuss situation, or eve=
n no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an Alternate Ballot on Thursday.=
=C2=A0

I don't object to resolving comments (a=
ctually, I find that lovely), but I don't know what we're doing.=C2=
=A0

I've never seen the alternate balloting pr=
ocedure executed (either as IESG scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I d=
on't get it, and other people have different expectations.
Spencer


--0000000000003bcfd4056623006a--


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The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.

Regards, Benoit
> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm 
> 0 for 2 so far today.
>
> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
>
> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the 
> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to 
> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
>
> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a 
> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an 
> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
>
> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely), 
> but I don't know what we're doing.
>
> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as 
> IESG scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other 
> people have different expectations.
>
> Spencer
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


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The way I see it, we're going to fix
      comments forever. 

      And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.

      

      Regards, Benoit

    

    

      
      
This may not be my week, when it comes to
        comprehension. At least, I'm 0 for 2 so far today.
        


        

        
Are we still tuning text in this draft? 

        


        

        
https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/
          says that the alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote
          - we either agree to publish, or agree to send a document off
          for rework.

        


        

        
If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that
          we'd get to a one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and
          wouldn't be doing an Alternate Ballot on Thursday. 

        


        

        
I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that
          lovely), but I don't know what we're doing. 

        


        

        
I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed
          (either as IESG scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't
          get it, and other people have different expectations.

        


        

        
Spencer

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
OPSAWG mailing list
OPSAWG@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


    

    

  


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF 
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:28:23 -0600
Message-ID: 
To: Benoit Claise 
Cc: Eric Rescorla , Paul Hoffman ,  draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  Kathleen Moriarty , The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
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Hi, Benoit,

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise  wrote:

> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
>

Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/down
vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed text
changes.

That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've balloted on
as an AD :-)

Spencer


> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm 0
> for 2 so far today.
>
> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
>
> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
>
> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
>
> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely), but I
> don't know what we're doing.
>
> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as IESG
> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other people
> have different expectations.
>
> Spencer
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing listOPSAWG@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>
>
>

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Hi, Benoit,

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.c=
om> wrote:

 =20
   =20
 =20
  

    
The way I see it, =
we're going to fix
      comments forever. 

Ri=
ght. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/down=
 vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed tex=
t changes.=C2=A0

That doesn't seem up/down. It=
 seems like every other draft I've balloted on as an AD :-)
<=
br>
Spencer
=C2=A0
=


      And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.

      

      Regards, Benoit

    

    

     =20
      
This may not be my week, when it comes to
        comprehension. At least, I'm 0 for 2 so far today.
        


        

        
Are we still tuning text in this draft?=C2=A0

        


        

        
https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-=
ballots/
          says=C2=A0that the alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vo=
te
          - we either agree to publish, or agree to send a document off
          for rework.

        


        

        
If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that
          we'd get to a one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, an=
d
          wouldn't be doing an Alternate Ballot on Thursday.=C2=A0
        


        

        
I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find tha=
t
          lovely), but I don't know what we're doing.=C2=A0

        


        

        
I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed
          (either as IESG scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don'=
t
          get it, and other people have different expectations.

        


        

        
Spencer

      

      

      

      

      
______________________________=
_________________
OPSAWG mailing list
OPSAWG@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/opsawg


    

    

  






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From: Warren Kumari 
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:15:54 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF 
Cc: Benoit Claise , Eric Rescorla ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  Kathleen Moriarty , The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
 wrote:
> Hi, Benoit,
>
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise  wrote:
>>
>> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
>
>
> Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/down
> vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed text
> changes.
>
> That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've balloted on
> as an AD :-)
>
> Spencer
>
>>
>> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm 0
>> for 2 so far today.
>>
>> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
>> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
>> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
>>
>> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
>> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
>> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
>>
>> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely), but I
>> don't know what we're doing.
>>

Me neither!

I think that the IESG chair is the official holder of the state at the
moment, but my 0.02c:

If we get to a no-discuss position (EKR holds the only discuss,
Alissa's is a "supports Ekr's discuss") I would assume that the
Alternate Ballot could be abandoned -- it seems that we would no
longer be deadlocked "by the above procedure".

My personal view is that EKRs comments are helpful and could be easily
folded in - if we do have to ballot, I'd *think* that we are balloting
on the document as written, but that, if it passes, the responsible AD
(me) would take these as useful comments received during IESG eval,
treat the document as "Approved, point raised" and ask for them to be
folded in...

Or something - we are kinda flying blind here.
W





>> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as IESG
>> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other people have
>> different expectations.
>>
>> Spencer
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OPSAWG mailing list
>> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>



-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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References: <151806627444.17073.14252972331367641645.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>      
From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF 
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:22:43 -0600
Message-ID: 
To: Warren Kumari 
Cc: Benoit Claise , Eric Rescorla ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  Kathleen Moriarty , The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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And, to be clear on one point ...

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:15 PM, Warren Kumari  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
>  wrote:
> > Hi, Benoit,
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
> >
> >
> > Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/down
> > vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed
> text
> > changes.
> >
> > That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've balloted
> on
> > as an AD :-)
> >
> > Spencer
> >
> >>
> >> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
> >>
> >> Regards, Benoit
> >>
> >> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm 0
> >> for 2 so far today.
> >>
> >> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
> >>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
> >> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
> >> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
> >>
> >> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
> >> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
> >> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
> >>
> >> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely),
> but I
> >> don't know what we're doing.
> >>
>
> Me neither!
>
> I think that the IESG chair is the official holder of the state at the
> moment, but my 0.02c:
>
> If we get to a no-discuss position (EKR holds the only discuss,
> Alissa's is a "supports Ekr's discuss") I would assume that the
> Alternate Ballot could be abandoned -- it seems that we would no
> longer be deadlocked "by the above procedure".
>
> My personal view is that EKRs comments are helpful and could be easily
> folded in -


That's what I think, too, although I'm not the guy who gets to decide. I
wasn't questioning any of EKR's comments.

I just seek clue.

Spencer


> if we do have to ballot, I'd *think* that we are balloting
> on the document as written, but that, if it passes, the responsible AD
> (me) would take these as useful comments received during IESG eval,
> treat the document as "Approved, point raised" and ask for them to be
> folded in...
>
> Or something - we are kinda flying blind here.
> W
>
>
>
>
>
> >> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as
> IESG
> >> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other people
> have
> >> different expectations.
> >>
> >> Spencer
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OPSAWG mailing list
> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OPSAWG mailing list
> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >
>
>
>
> --
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
> idea in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
> of pants.
>    ---maf
>

--0000000000007d7511056625c95a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


And, to be clear on one point ...

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:15 PM, Warren Ku=
mari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at =
IETF

<spencerdawkins.ietf@gm=
ail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Benoit,

>

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>>

>> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.

>

>

> Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an =
up/down

> vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed=
 text

> changes.

>

> That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I'v=
e balloted on

> as an AD :-)

>

> Spencer

>

>>

>> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.<=
br>
>>

>> Regards, Benoit

>>

>> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least,=
 I'm 0

>> for 2 so far today.

>>

>> Are we still tuning text in this draft?

>>

>> https://www.ietf.org/standards/pro=
cess/iesg-ballots/ says that the

>> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree=
 to

>> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.

>>

>> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'=
;d get to a

>> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be d=
oing an

>> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.

>>

>> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lo=
vely), but I

>> don't know what we're doing.

>>



Me neither!



I think that the IESG chair is the official holder of the state at the

moment, but my 0.02c:



If we get to a no-discuss position (EKR holds the only discuss,

Alissa's is a "supports Ekr's discuss") I would assume th=
at the

Alternate Ballot could be abandoned -- it seems that we would no

longer be deadlocked "by the above procedure".



My personal view is that EKRs comments are helpful and could be easily

folded in - 

That's what I think, too, =
although I'm not the guy who gets to decide. I wasn't questioning a=
ny of EKR's comments.

I just seek clue.
<=
div>
Spencer
=C2=A0
if we do have to ballot, I'd *think* that we are balloting

on the document as written, but that, if it passes, the responsible AD

(me) would take these as useful comments received during IESG eval,

treat the document as "Approved, point raised" and ask for them t=
o be

folded in...



Or something - we are kinda flying blind here.

W












>> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (ei=
ther as IESG

>> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and oth=
er people have

>> different expectations.

>>

>> Spencer

>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> OPSAWG mailing list

>> OPSAWG@ietf.org

>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsa=
wg

>>

>>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> OPSAWG mailing list

> OPSAWG@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg

>








--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad

idea in the first place.

This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing

regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair

of pants.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf





--0000000000007d7511056625c95a--


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From: Warren Kumari 
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:46:40 -0500
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To: opsawg@ietf.org, ops-area@ietf.org, ops-ads@ietf.org
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Call for OpsArea agenda requests.
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Dear OpsArea,

Once again we will be holding a joint OpsArea session with the OpsAWG meeting (
13:30-15:30 Monday Afternoon session I)
Please let us (ops-ads@ietf.org) know if you have any agenda items.

W

-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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From: Warren Kumari 
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Subject: [OPSAWG] IETF 101 Operations and Management AD Office Hours
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Dear all,

When:  15:50-17:20 Monday Afternoon session II
Where: TBD - this will shortly be posted in the Agenda.

Please come to talk to us on any WG or OPS area items, about new
proposals, or about any other IETF-related business.
Also, come and meet Ignas, who will be taking over the  Management AD
torch from Benoit.

An advanced notification would be appreciated, so that we can schedule
the different slots.

Regards, Warren, Benoit and Ignas

-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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From: li zhenqiang 
To: Jeffrey Haas , Paolo Lucente 
CC: Zhoutianran , grow , "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" , opsawg 
Thread-Topic: Re: [GROW] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 16:05:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] [GROW] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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From: Warren Kumari 
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 14:23:44 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF 
Cc: Benoit Claise , Eric Rescorla ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  Kathleen Moriarty , The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
 wrote:
> Hi, Benoit,
>
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise  wrote:
>>
>> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
>
>
> Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/down
> vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed text
> changes.

[ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical entry point ]

... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for
people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --
but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay
attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".

I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to
address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the
current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a
friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final
version will actually look like.
So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)
on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD
will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the
Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.

Confused yet? :-P


>
> That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've balloted on
> as an AD :-)
>

Indeed.
W

> Spencer
>
>>
>> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm 0
>> for 2 so far today.
>>
>> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
>> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
>> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
>>
>> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
>> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
>> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
>>
>> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely), but I
>> don't know what we're doing.
>>
>> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as IESG
>> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other people have
>> different expectations.
>>
>> Spencer
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OPSAWG mailing list
>> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>



-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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From nobody Tue Feb 27 15:15:43 2018
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Subject: [OPSAWG] opsawg - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 101
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Dear Tianran Zhou,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 

opsawg Session 1 (2:00:00)
    Monday, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530
    Room Name: Blenheim size: 200
    ---------------------------------------------
    

Special Note: Joint session with OPSAREA


Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Operations and Management Area Working Group
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Tianran Zhou

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: nvo3 ippm rtgwg
 Second Priority: idr detnet



People who must be present:
  Benoit Claise
  Warren Kumari
  Joe Clarke
  Tianran Zhou
  Ignas Bagdonas

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  PLEASE NOTE: Combined OpsAWG / OpsAREA
---------------------------------------------------------


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From: li zhenqiang 
To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , "gen-art@ietf.org" 
CC: "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" , opsawg 
Thread-Topic: Re: Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 01:54:34 +0000
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References: <151819723555.1208.12835539554987861622@ietfa.amsl.com>, <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927982D3D8D@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com>, <05c59213-301b-ca3e-f7c1-2c4b5314fb01@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
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To: li zhenqiang , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , "gen-art@ietf.org" 
Cc: "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" , opsawg 
References: <151819723555.1208.12835539554987861622@ietfa.amsl.com> <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927982D3D8D@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <05c59213-301b-ca3e-f7c1-2c4b5314fb01@joelhalpern.com> 
From: "Joel M. Halpern" 
Message-ID: <557f6f1f-36ee-fd6a-2fa2-3ffd132ad4a8@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 21:13:32 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
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Is this for one operator (still important, but not necessarily for 
standardization) or are there several operators who have expressed 
interest in this?

Yes, we do proactive standards.  But the IDR group, for example, tends 
to be very careful to see if interest is reflected in implementation.

In this case, given that what is proposed is a completely different use 
of the BGP communities, I think at least more clarity that this is only 
expected to be used for communities that match the purpose, and of how 
and why the vendors would implement the router-side logic.

To get back to the points I made in the review:

1) The document needs to be much clearer that it is about new 
communities whcih are expected to be defined for this use.  It needs to 
be clear if this is expected to be applied to communities put on by 
other AS, or only to communities provided by routers of the collecting 
AS.  The later leads to understandable configuration.  The former leads 
to questions about hos the meaning will be known.

2) The document needs to be clear and explicit about what processing it 
is expecting the router to provide, and how much configuration is needed 
to get the right things to happen.

Yours,
Joel

On 2/27/18 8:54 PM, li zhenqiang wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> This is Zhenqiang Li from China Mobile. The purpose of this doc is not 
> to report the well-known communities, but the operator planed 
> communities represent the groups of the customers, peers, 
> the geographical and topological related information as stated in 
> RFC4384, which is a common practice and also used in our field network.
> 
> When the exporter, i.e. router, receives the templete to report the 
> communities, the exporter gets the information through BGP lookup using 
> the corresponding source or destination IP of a traffic flow. The 
> procedure for the exporter to get the community informaiton of a traffic 
> flow is the same as it gets the AS information.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Zhenqiang Li
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
> 
>     *From:* Joel M. Halpern 
>     *Date:* 2018-02-12 00:37
>     *To:* Dongjie (Jimmy) ; gen-art@ietf.org
>     
>     *CC:* draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org
>     ;
>     opsawg@ietf.org 
>     *Subject:* Re: Genart early review of
>     draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>     This was a requested early review.  You folks can do as you deem best.
>      From where I sit, it seems odd.  Most well-known communities do not
>     fit
>     the pattern of representing groups of sources or groups of destinations.
>     I presume the intent here is for this to be useful in some AS other
>     than
>     the one originating the communities.  Which makes it even harder to see
>     when it would apply.
>     I presume this is driven by having found that it would have helped in
>     some real-world situation?
>     I think the document would be helped by a clearer description of
>     when it
>     applies and what behavior is expected of the router (not just "the same
>     as that over there.")
>     Yours,
>     Joel
>     On 2/11/18 1:32 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
>      > Hi Joel,
>      >
>      > Thanks for your review comments. Please see my replies inline:
>      >
>      >> -----Original Message-----
>      >> From: Joel Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>      >> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:27 AM
>      >> To: gen-art@ietf.org
>      >> Cc: draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org;
>     opsawg@ietf.org
>      >> Subject: Genart early review of
>     draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>      >>
>      >> Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>      >> Review result: Not Ready
>      >>
>      >> This is an early gen-art review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-04.
>      >>
>      >> The document is clear about what it is trying to do, and
>     readable.  It is not
>      >> clear about how it expects this to actually work.
>      >>
>      >> However, I find the underlying concept confusing.
>      >> 1) BGP Communities may sometimes represent subsets of traffic. 
>     But usually
>      >> they represent tagging intended to influence routing which is
>     only indirectly
>      >> related to meaningful subsets of traffic for TE purposes.  One
>     may be able to
>      >> make an argument that this could better enable monitoring the
>     effects of some
>      >> BGP communities.  But the draft does not make that argument.
>      >
>      > This depends on how the BGP communities are used by the
>     operators. Except some well-known communities, BGP communities are
>     used in a customized manner. In some cases, BGP communities indicate
>     the source and destination information of a group of traffic flows.
>     These are the major case this document is focusing on, as it would
>     be helpful for operator to collect the traffic statistics based on
>     BGP communities. Using BGP communities to influence routing is
>     another popular use case. In that case, it may also be helpful to
>     collect traffic statistic information related to the BGP
>     communities, while the purpose may not be just for TE.
>      >
>      > 2) It is
>      >> unclear what this actually expects the router to do in
>     generating this
>      >> information.
>      >> Reading between the lines, it seems that what is desired is for
>     the router
>      >> control process to go through the IPFIX collected information
>     before it is
>      >> exported, and add BGP community tags to the export information.
>      >> (Generating such information directly from the forwarding plane
>     would place
>      >> significant load on the forwarding representation and
>     processing, and on the
>      >> control logic to generate FIB information.)  Given that off-line
>     BGP information
>      >> collection is a common practice, and that such information is
>     common across
>      >> the AS, it would actually seem simpler to perform such
>     processing and
>      >> aggregation offline rather than in the router.
>      >
>      > The behavior of a router would be similar to its behavior with
>     the existing BGP relevant IEs, e.g. bgpSourceAsNumber,
>     bgpDestinationAsNumber, bgpNextHopIPv4Address, etc. Basically this
>     is the aggregated traffic information collection model, in which the
>     router aggregates the collected traffic information based on the IEs
>     specified in the template, so that it can export much less
>     information to the collector without losing the information the
>     collector really cares about. Exporting aggregated traffic
>     statistics has been widely used in the networks.
>      >
>      > Note that the purpose of this mechanism is to export the
>     aggregated traffic statistics information at the granularity
>     specified by BGP communities, while BMP can used to collect the
>     detailed information of BGP RIBs and BGP events, IMO they are
>     designed for different purposes. Although it is possible to export
>     all the non-aggregated traffic information to the collector, and let
>     the collector to correlate them with the BGP communities, this can
>     bring heavy burden to both the exporter and the collector.
>      >
>      >>
>      >> If the IDR working group has not been consulted about this, I
>     would strongly
>      >> recommend working with them as to whether this is actually
>     useful information
>      >> to collect, and how and where to collect it. If the IDR working
>     group does not
>      >> consider important to work on this, then that gives you useful
>     information in
>      >> and of itself.
>      >
>      > The IDR WG has been notified about the LC of this document, so
>     far there is no objection received from them. We would like to
>     encourage IDR people to review and give feedbacks to help improve
>     this document. Whether the new IEs are useful or not should be
>     determined in the OPSAWG.
>      >
>      > Best regards,
>      > Jie
>      >
> 


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From: li zhenqiang 
To: "Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com" , Jeffrey Haas , Paolo Lucente 
CC: grow , Zhoutianran , "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" , opsawg 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] [GROW] WG LC for draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community
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From: li zhenqiang 
To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , "gen-art@ietf.org" 
CC: "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" , opsawg 
Thread-Topic: Re: Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 11:22:10 +0000
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References: <151819723555.1208.12835539554987861622@ietfa.amsl.com>, <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927982D3D8D@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com>, <05c59213-301b-ca3e-f7c1-2c4b5314fb01@joelhalpern.com>, , <557f6f1f-36ee-fd6a-2fa2-3ffd132ad4a8@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
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From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 06:16:42 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Warren Kumari 
Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Benoit Claise ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  Kathleen Moriarty , The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--94eb2c072d76d764bb0566466629
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On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
>  wrote:
> > Hi, Benoit,
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
> >
> >
> > Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/down
> > vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed
> text
> > changes.
>
> [ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical entry
> point ]
>
> ... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for
> people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --
> but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay
> attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".
>
> I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to
> address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the
> current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a
> friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final
> version will actually look like.
> So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)
> on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD
> will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the
> Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.
>

Can you send a link to the Github version? I didn't see a reference?

-Ekr


>
> Confused yet? :-P
>
>
> >
> > That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've balloted
> on
> > as an AD :-)
> >
>
> Indeed.
> W
>
> > Spencer
> >
> >>
> >> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
> >>
> >> Regards, Benoit
> >>
> >> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm 0
> >> for 2 so far today.
> >>
> >> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
> >>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
> >> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
> >> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
> >>
> >> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
> >> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
> >> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
> >>
> >> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely),
> but I
> >> don't know what we're doing.
> >>
> >> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as
> IESG
> >> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other people
> have
> >> different expectations.
> >>
> >> Spencer
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OPSAWG mailing list
> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OPSAWG mailing list
> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >
>
>
>
> --
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
> idea in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
> of pants.
>    ---maf
>

--94eb2c072d76d764bb0566466629
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari <<=
a href=3D"mailto:warren@kumari.net" target=3D"_blank">warren@kumari.net=
> wrote:
On Mo=
n, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF

<spencerdawkins.ietf@gm=
ail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Benoit,

>

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>>

>> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.

>

>

> Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an =
up/down

> vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed=
 text

> changes.



[ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical ent=
ry point ]



... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for

people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --

but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay

attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".



I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to

address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the

current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a

friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final

version will actually look like.

So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)

on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD

will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the

Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.

<=
/div>
Can you send a link to the Github version? I didn't see a ref=
erence?

-Ekr
=C2=A0



Confused yet? :-P





>

> That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I'v=
e balloted on

> as an AD :-)

>



Indeed.

W




> Spencer

>

>>

>> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.<=
br>
>>

>> Regards, Benoit

>>

>> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least,=
 I'm 0

>> for 2 so far today.

>>

>> Are we still tuning text in this draft?

>>

>> https://www.ietf.org/standards/pro=
cess/iesg-ballots/ says that the

>> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree=
 to

>> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.

>>

>> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'=
;d get to a

>> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be d=
oing an

>> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.

>>

>> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lo=
vely), but I

>> don't know what we're doing.

>>

>> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (ei=
ther as IESG

>> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and oth=
er people have

>> different expectations.

>>

>> Spencer

>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> OPSAWG mailing list

>> OPSAWG@ietf.org

>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsa=
wg

>>

>>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> OPSAWG mailing list

> OPSAWG@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg

>








--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad

idea in the first place.

This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing

regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair

of pants.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf





--94eb2c072d76d764bb0566466629--


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From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 06:45:08 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Warren Kumari 
Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Benoit Claise ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  Kathleen Moriarty , The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11487b8c912687056646cc02"
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--001a11487b8c912687056646cc02
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On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
>  wrote:
> > Hi, Benoit,
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
> >
> >
> > Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/down
> > vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed
> text
> > changes.
>
> [ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical entry
> point ]
>
> ... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for
> people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --
> but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay
> attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".
>
> I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to
> address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the
> current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a
> friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final
> version will actually look like.
> So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)
> on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD
> will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the
> Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.
>
> Confused yet? :-P
>

Hi Warren,

Thanks for this note.

It's too bad that we aren't able to see the proposed revisions at this
point, but I appreciate your commitment to working through the
remaining issues, and I think we should be able to reach a
satisfactory resolution. In the interest of not forcing everyone to
read the document by tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot to
Abstain.

Best,
-Ekr







>
>
> >
> > That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've balloted
> on
> > as an AD :-)
> >
>
> Indeed.
> W
>
> > Spencer
> >
> >>
> >> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
> >>
> >> Regards, Benoit
> >>
> >> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm 0
> >> for 2 so far today.
> >>
> >> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
> >>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
> >> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
> >> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
> >>
> >> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
> >> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
> >> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
> >>
> >> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely),
> but I
> >> don't know what we're doing.
> >>
> >> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as
> IESG
> >> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other people
> have
> >> different expectations.
> >>
> >> Spencer
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OPSAWG mailing list
> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OPSAWG mailing list
> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >
>
>
>
> --
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
> idea in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
> of pants.
>    ---maf
>

--001a11487b8c912687056646cc02
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari <<=
a href=3D"mailto:warren@kumari.net" target=3D"_blank">warren@kumari.net=
> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IET=
F

<spencerdawkins.ietf@gm=
ail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Benoit,

>

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>>

>> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.

>

>

> Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an =
up/down

> vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed=
 text

> changes.



[ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical ent=
ry point ]



... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for

people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --

but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay

attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".



I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to

address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the

current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a

friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final

version will actually look like.

So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)

on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD

will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the

Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.



Confused yet? :-P

Hi Warren,
=

Thanks for this note.

It's too =
bad that we aren't able to see the proposed revisions at this
point, but I appreciate your commitment to working through the
r=
emaining issues, and I think we should be able to reach a
satisfa=
ctory resolution. In the interest of not forcing everyone to
read=
 the document by tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot to
A=
bstain.

Best,
-Ekr

<=
div>



=C2=A0





>

> That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I'v=
e balloted on

> as an AD :-)

>



Indeed.

W




> Spencer

>

>>

>> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.<=
br>
>>

>> Regards, Benoit

>>

>> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least,=
 I'm 0

>> for 2 so far today.

>>

>> Are we still tuning text in this draft?

>>

>> https://www.ietf.org/standards/pro=
cess/iesg-ballots/ says that the

>> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree=
 to

>> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.

>>

>> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'=
;d get to a

>> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be d=
oing an

>> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.

>>

>> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lo=
vely), but I

>> don't know what we're doing.

>>

>> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (ei=
ther as IESG

>> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and oth=
er people have

>> different expectations.

>>

>> Spencer

>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> OPSAWG mailing list

>> OPSAWG@ietf.org

>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsa=
wg

>>

>>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> OPSAWG mailing list

> OPSAWG@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg

>








--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad

idea in the first place.

This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing

regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair

of pants.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf





--001a11487b8c912687056646cc02--


From nobody Wed Feb 28 06:53:36 2018
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From: Eric Rescorla 
To: "The IESG" 
Cc: draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net, Paul Hoffman , paul.hoffman@vpnc.org
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 06:53:29 -0800
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Subject: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Abstain on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-22: (with COMMENT)
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Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-22: Abstain

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate all the work that the authors have put into this document, and I
think it makes a number of good points. However, at the end of the day, I don't
think publishing an IETF RFC devoted to listing all the problems that
encryption creates -- even with a bunch of disclaimers -- is consistent with
the direction the IETF is otherwise taking towards universal encryption.



From nobody Wed Feb 28 07:19:29 2018
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To: li zhenqiang , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , "gen-art@ietf.org" 
Cc: "draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org" , opsawg 
References: <151819723555.1208.12835539554987861622@ietfa.amsl.com> <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927982D3D8D@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <05c59213-301b-ca3e-f7c1-2c4b5314fb01@joelhalpern.com>  <557f6f1f-36ee-fd6a-2fa2-3ffd132ad4a8@joelhalpern.com> 
From: Joel Halpern Direct 
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:19:18 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Genart early review of draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
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I am having trouble reconciling two of your comments.
In you rlast email you said that this is for "planed communities 
represent the groups of customers peers an geographical and topological 
related information".  Planned communities is presumably a new behavior, 
not existing behavior.

In this email you say that these are "already defined BGP communities".

You reference RFC 4384, which talks about several kinds of communities. 
maybe you intend the regional or national communities mentioned as being 
possible, but not defined, in that document.  This document's 
descriptions do not align well enough with RFC 4384 for me to say.

Let's be clear.  The working group asked for an early review.  The WG 
now has my review, indicating that this document is unclear in multiple 
regards and could use improvement.

It is now up to the WG and the chairs.
Yours,
Joel

On 2/28/18 6:22 AM, li zhenqiang wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> 
> This is not for one operator, instead it is a common practice. Please 
> refer to RFC4384 and comments from Thomas who are from Swisscom.
> 
> One clarification for this doc is it is not to introduce any new BGP 
> communities but to report the already defined BGP communities related to 
> a traffic flow through IPFIX, thus the IPFIX collector can analyze the 
> traffic in BGP community granularity without running BGP protocol.
> 
> BGP community is a transitive attibute, thus the exporter can report all 
> the communities carried in the matching route entry, unless some BGP 
> communities are filtered by some routers.
> 
> Sure I can add some text in the doc to say the proper processing of the 
> exporter, something like what I said in the previous mail, do you think 
> it is ok and enough?
>   When the exporter, i.e. router, receives the templete to report 
> the communities, the exporter gets the information through BGP lookup 
> using the corresponding source or destination IP of a traffic flow.
> 
> Thank you for your comments.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Zhenqiang Li
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
> 
>     *From:* Joel M. Halpern 
>     *Date:* 2018-02-28 10:13
>     *To:* li zhenqiang ; Dongjie
>     (Jimmy) ; gen-art@ietf.org
>     
>     *CC:* draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org
>     ; opsawg
>     
>     *Subject:* Re: Genart early review of
>     draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>     Is this for one operator (still important, but not necessarily for
>     standardization) or are there several operators who have expressed
>     interest in this?
>     Yes, we do proactive standards.  But the IDR group, for example, tends
>     to be very careful to see if interest is reflected in implementation.
>     In this case, given that what is proposed is a completely different use
>     of the BGP communities, I think at least more clarity that this is only
>     expected to be used for communities that match the purpose, and of how
>     and why the vendors would implement the router-side logic.
>     To get back to the points I made in the review:
>     1) The document needs to be much clearer that it is about new
>     communities whcih are expected to be defined for this use.  It needs to
>     be clear if this is expected to be applied to communities put on by
>     other AS, or only to communities provided by routers of the collecting
>     AS.  The later leads to understandable configuration.  The former leads
>     to questions about hos the meaning will be known.
>     2) The document needs to be clear and explicit about what processing it
>     is expecting the router to provide, and how much configuration is
>     needed
>     to get the right things to happen.
>     Yours,
>     Joel
>     On 2/27/18 8:54 PM, li zhenqiang wrote:
>      > Hi Joel,
>      >
>      > This is Zhenqiang Li from China Mobile. The purpose of this doc
>     is not
>      > to report the well-known communities, but the operator planed
>      > communities represent the groups of the customers, peers,
>      > the geographical and topological related information as stated in
>      > RFC4384, which is a common practice and also used in our field
>     network.
>      >
>      > When the exporter, i.e. router, receives the templete to report the
>      > communities, the exporter gets the information through BGP lookup
>     using
>      > the corresponding source or destination IP of a traffic flow. The
>      > procedure for the exporter to get the community informaiton of a
>     traffic
>      > flow is the same as it gets the AS information.
>      >
>      > Best Regards,
>      > Zhenqiang Li
>      >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      > li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
>      >
>      >     *From:* Joel M. Halpern 
>      >     *Date:* 2018-02-12 00:37
>      >     *To:* Dongjie (Jimmy) ;
>     gen-art@ietf.org
>      >     
>      >     *CC:* draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org
>      >     ;
>      >     opsawg@ietf.org 
>      >     *Subject:* Re: Genart early review of
>      >     draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>      >     This was a requested early review.  You folks can do as you
>     deem best.
>      >      From where I sit, it seems odd.  Most well-known communities
>     do not
>      >     fit
>      >     the pattern of representing groups of sources or groups of
>     destinations.
>      >     I presume the intent here is for this to be useful in some AS
>     other
>      >     than
>      >     the one originating the communities.  Which makes it even
>     harder to see
>      >     when it would apply.
>      >     I presume this is driven by having found that it would have
>     helped in
>      >     some real-world situation?
>      >     I think the document would be helped by a clearer description of
>      >     when it
>      >     applies and what behavior is expected of the router (not just
>     "the same
>      >     as that over there.")
>      >     Yours,
>      >     Joel
>      >     On 2/11/18 1:32 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
>      >      > Hi Joel,
>      >      >
>      >      > Thanks for your review comments. Please see my replies inline:
>      >      >
>      >      >> -----Original Message-----
>      >      >> From: Joel Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>      >      >> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:27 AM
>      >      >> To: gen-art@ietf.org
>      >      >> Cc: draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community.all@ietf.org;
>      >     opsawg@ietf.org
>      >      >> Subject: Genart early review of
>      >     draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-community-04
>      >      >>
>      >      >> Reviewer: Joel Halpern
>      >      >> Review result: Not Ready
>      >      >>
>      >      >> This is an early gen-art review of
>     draft-ietf-opsawg-ipfix-bgp-04.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> The document is clear about what it is trying to do, and
>      >     readable.  It is not
>      >      >> clear about how it expects this to actually work.
>      >      >>
>      >      >> However, I find the underlying concept confusing.
>      >      >> 1) BGP Communities may sometimes represent subsets of
>     traffic.
>      >     But usually
>      >      >> they represent tagging intended to influence routing which is
>      >     only indirectly
>      >      >> related to meaningful subsets of traffic for TE
>     purposes.  One
>      >     may be able to
>      >      >> make an argument that this could better enable monitoring the
>      >     effects of some
>      >      >> BGP communities.  But the draft does not make that argument.
>      >      >
>      >      > This depends on how the BGP communities are used by the
>      >     operators. Except some well-known communities, BGP
>     communities are
>      >     used in a customized manner. In some cases, BGP communities
>     indicate
>      >     the source and destination information of a group of traffic
>     flows.
>      >     These are the major case this document is focusing on, as it
>     would
>      >     be helpful for operator to collect the traffic statistics
>     based on
>      >     BGP communities. Using BGP communities to influence routing is
>      >     another popular use case. In that case, it may also be helpful to
>      >     collect traffic statistic information related to the BGP
>      >     communities, while the purpose may not be just for TE.
>      >      >
>      >      > 2) It is
>      >      >> unclear what this actually expects the router to do in
>      >     generating this
>      >      >> information.
>      >      >> Reading between the lines, it seems that what is desired
>     is for
>      >     the router
>      >      >> control process to go through the IPFIX collected information
>      >     before it is
>      >      >> exported, and add BGP community tags to the export
>     information.
>      >      >> (Generating such information directly from the forwarding
>     plane
>      >     would place
>      >      >> significant load on the forwarding representation and
>      >     processing, and on the
>      >      >> control logic to generate FIB information.)  Given that
>     off-line
>      >     BGP information
>      >      >> collection is a common practice, and that such information is
>      >     common across
>      >      >> the AS, it would actually seem simpler to perform such
>      >     processing and
>      >      >> aggregation offline rather than in the router.
>      >      >
>      >      > The behavior of a router would be similar to its behavior with
>      >     the existing BGP relevant IEs, e.g. bgpSourceAsNumber,
>      >     bgpDestinationAsNumber, bgpNextHopIPv4Address, etc. Basically
>     this
>      >     is the aggregated traffic information collection model, in
>     which the
>      >     router aggregates the collected traffic information based on
>     the IEs
>      >     specified in the template, so that it can export much less
>      >     information to the collector without losing the information the
>      >     collector really cares about. Exporting aggregated traffic
>      >     statistics has been widely used in the networks.
>      >      >
>      >      > Note that the purpose of this mechanism is to export the
>      >     aggregated traffic statistics information at the granularity
>      >     specified by BGP communities, while BMP can used to collect the
>      >     detailed information of BGP RIBs and BGP events, IMO they are
>      >     designed for different purposes. Although it is possible to
>     export
>      >     all the non-aggregated traffic information to the collector,
>     and let
>      >     the collector to correlate them with the BGP communities,
>     this can
>      >     bring heavy burden to both the exporter and the collector.
>      >      >
>      >      >>
>      >      >> If the IDR working group has not been consulted about this, I
>      >     would strongly
>      >      >> recommend working with them as to whether this is actually
>      >     useful information
>      >      >> to collect, and how and where to collect it. If the IDR
>     working
>      >     group does not
>      >      >> consider important to work on this, then that gives you
>     useful
>      >     information in
>      >      >> and of itself.
>      >      >
>      >      > The IDR WG has been notified about the LC of this document, so
>      >     far there is no objection received from them. We would like to
>      >     encourage IDR people to review and give feedbacks to help improve
>      >     this document. Whether the new IEs are useful or not should be
>      >     determined in the OPSAWG.
>      >      >
>      >      > Best regards,
>      >      > Jie
>      >      >
>      >
> 


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To: Eric Rescorla 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Sorry, I wasn=E2=80=99t able to task switch to editing the document yesterda=
y with other work obligations. =20

Best,
Kathleen=20

Sent from my mobile device

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote=
:
>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
>>  wrote:
>> > Hi, Benoit,
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise  wrot=
e:
>> >>
>> >> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
>> >
>> >
>> > Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/do=
wn
>> > vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed t=
ext
>> > changes.
>>=20
>> [ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical entry po=
int ]
>>=20
>> ... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for
>> people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --
>> but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay
>> attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".
>>=20
>> I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to
>> address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the
>> current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a
>> friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final
>> version will actually look like.
>> So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)
>> on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD
>> will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the
>> Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.
>>=20
>> Confused yet? :-P
>=20
> Hi Warren,
>=20
> Thanks for this note.
>=20
> It's too bad that we aren't able to see the proposed revisions at this
> point, but I appreciate your commitment to working through the
> remaining issues, and I think we should be able to reach a
> satisfactory resolution. In the interest of not forcing everyone to
> read the document by tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot to
> Abstain.
>=20
> Best,
> -Ekr
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> >
>> > That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've ballote=
d on
>> > as an AD :-)
>> >
>>=20
>> Indeed.
>> W
>>=20
>> > Spencer
>> >
>> >>
>> >> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
>> >>
>> >> Regards, Benoit
>> >>
>> >> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'm=
 0
>> >> for 2 so far today.
>> >>
>> >> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
>> >>
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
>> >> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
>> >> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
>> >>
>> >> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
>> >> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
>> >> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
>> >>
>> >> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely), b=
ut I
>> >> don't know what we're doing.
>> >>
>> >> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as I=
ESG
>> >> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other peopl=
e have
>> >> different expectations.
>> >>
>> >> Spencer
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OPSAWG mailing list
>> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OPSAWG mailing list
>> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>> >
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
>> idea in the first place.
>> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
>> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
>> of pants.
>>    ---maf
>=20

--Apple-Mail-D3A10420-BE65-40A3-BEEB-C01136567D00
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry, I wasn=E2=80=99t able to task switch=
 to editing the document yesterday with other work obligations.  
<=
br>
Best,
Kathleen 

Sent from my mobile device


On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11=
:23 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 26=
, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF

<spencerdawkins.ietf@gma=
il.com> wrote:

> Hi, Benoit,

>

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>>

>> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.

>

>

> Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an up/do=
wn

> vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed t=
ext

> changes.



[ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical entr=
y point ]



... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for

people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --

but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay

attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".



I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to

address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the

current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a

friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final

version will actually look like.

So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)

on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD

will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the

Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.



Confused yet? :-P

Hi Warren,
<=
br>
Thanks for this note.

It's too bad th=
at we aren't able to see the proposed revisions at this
point, but=
 I appreciate your commitment to working through the
remaining iss=
ues, and I think we should be able to reach a
satisfactory resolut=
ion. In the interest of not forcing everyone to
read the document b=
y tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot to
Abstain.
Best,
-Ekr




 





>

> That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've ballote=
d on

> as an AD :-)

>



Indeed.

W




> Spencer

>

>>

>> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
>>

>> Regards, Benoit

>>

>> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I=
'm 0

>> for 2 so far today.

>>

>> Are we still tuning text in this draft?

>>

>> https://www.ietf.org/standards/proce=
ss/iesg-ballots/ says that the

>> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree t=
o

>> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.

>>

>> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to=
 a

>> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing a=
n

>> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.

>>

>> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely)=
, but I

>> don't know what we're doing.

>>

>> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either a=
s IESG

>> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other pe=
ople have

>> different expectations.

>>

>> Spencer

>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> OPSAWG mailing list

>> OPSAWG@ietf.org

>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg=


>>

>>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> OPSAWG mailing list

> OPSAWG@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg=


>








--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad

idea in the first place.

This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing

regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair

of pants.

   ---maf





=

--Apple-Mail-D3A10420-BE65-40A3-BEEB-C01136567D00--


From nobody Wed Feb 28 08:36:47 2018
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Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-22: Abstain

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for addressing most of my concerns in my previous ballot even though I abstained.



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From: Alissa Cooper 
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Cc: IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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To: Kathleen Moriarty 
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Kathleen,

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 4:07 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Alissa,
>=20
> I believe this is the last set of comments received that we had left
> to respond.  The next update that will come out shortly following this
> message should address all comments and subsequent discussions
> received to date.

Thanks!

>=20
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Alissa Cooper  =
wrote:
>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: Abstain
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt/
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Many thanks for all the effort that has gone in to addressing all the =
comments
>> from the last IESG review and from the community. I find this version =
to be
>> much improved from the last time the IESG reviewed it.
>>=20
>> However, I do not feel that I can support the publication of the =
document.
>> While the tone has improved in many places and the introduction does =
a better
>> job of contextualizing the document, the document still contains text =
in
>> several sections that states service providers' claims about their =
practices as
>> facts rather than stating them as claims or presenting the practices =
in a
>> neutral way. This was a point raised in my previous DISCUSS (I've =
included my
>> previous DISCUSS ballot text below in full for reference). In the =
previous
>> review round Warren had invited recommendations for places where the =
tone or
>> choice of words could be made more neutral or balanced, and I =
provided many
>> detailed suggestions, but a number of those were not adopted. I also =
realize
>> that the introduction contains much of the disclaimer text we =
previously hashed
>> out to try to address this, but it doesn't contain all of it. So this =
is still
>> a major issue for the document, IMO.
>=20
> I believe we had responded to the discussion and left off with the
> updates matching the last parts of the discussion.
>=20
>>=20
>> The document also still extemporizes about future possible impacts, =
making it
>> hard to come away with a neutral view of their treatment, as I noted =
in my
>> previous DISCUSS ballot.
>>=20
>> I support the DISCUSS position held by Ekr. But given the above I =
don't think
>> it will be fruitful for me to continue to engage on the details of =
this
>> document, so I'm abstaining.
>>=20
>> I've included below some of the areas that I still find problematic, =
as well as
>> some nits.
>>=20
>> Problematic areas:
>>=20
>> =3D Section 2.1.2 =3D
>>=20
>> (1)
>> "Network operators are often the first ones called upon to =
investigate
>>   application problems"
>>=20
>> I still contend that without data to back this up, this claim should =
not be
>> made, especially for the enterprise context.
>=20
> This is in section 2.1.2, which is specific to service provider
> networks.  Al responded on this previously from his experience. =20

This was also my experience at BT. I don=E2=80=99t think it matches the =
experience of the folks who provide WebEx customer service, for example. =
But I acknowledge that is an enterprise example.

I realize that my last ballot text wasn=E2=80=99t clear on this, but my =
claim wasn=E2=80=99t that this is untrue, but rather that if you =
actually want the text to sound neutral rather than reflective of the =
biases of the authors, then both experiences would need to be reflected, =
not just one.

> My
> experience having worked at a service provider and having managed/been
> responsible for the security of several large enterprises matches his
> - the service provider is often the first call, especially with the
> cited example.  If there's a perceived issue that's network related,
> you have an SLA with the service provider and they have to assist.
> They will figure out if there is a routing issue, congestion, the
> service is not responding, DDoS, or something else that is happening
> to cause the trouble.  These are all issues that require a little
> network troubleshooting before you point the problem at the
> application.  It's not as easy with an application as you don't always
> have someone you can call.  The service provider may be seeing the
> application issue from multiple customers and may then act on behalf
> of many customers to get in touch with the application provider.
> Getting to the right person at an application provider is typically
> much harder then the initial troubleshooting steps to discover if
> there is a network issue.  I'd be embarrassed if I called an
> application provider and the issue was the network.  I'd want to rule
> out the network and services like DNS prior to making that call.
>=20
> I know this is one Al wanted to hold firm on and I agree with him from
> my experience.
>=20
> How about the following to make the point more clear for those not
> familiar with troubleshooting:
>=20
> OLD:
> Network operators are often the first ones called upon to investigate
> application problems (e.g., "my HD video is choppy").
>=20
> NEW:
> Network operators are often the first ones called upon to investigate
> application problems (e.g., "my HD video is choppy"), to first rule
> out network and network services as a cause for the underlying issue.
>=20
> I think the real issue though is the text in the rest of the paragraph
> (as opposed to the above statement) as it is mixing up practices of
> enterprises and that of SPs.  So here is that cleaned up a bit,
> removing the packet captures (which might be used if a customer
> provides them, but this is stated in the adjusted version of the
> previous paragraph.
>=20
> OLD:
> When diagnosing a customer problem, the starting point may be a
> particular application that isn't working. The ability to identify the
> problem application's traffic is important and packet capture is often
> used for this purpose; IP address filtering is not useful for
> applications using content delivery networks (CDNs) or cloud
> providers. After identifying the traffic, an operator may analyze the
> traffic characteristics and routing of the traffic.
>=20
> NEW:
> When diagnosing a customer problem, the starting point may be a
> particular application that isn't working. The ability to identify the
> problem application's traffic is important and packet capture provided
> from the customer close to the edge may be used for this purpose; IP
> address filtering is not useful for applications using content
> delivery networks (CDNs) or cloud providers. After identifying the
> traffic, an operator may analyze the traffic characteristics and
> routing of the traffic.  This diagnostic step is important to help
> determine the root cause before exploring if the issue is directly
> with the application.

These edits look good to me.

>=20
>>=20
>> (2)
>> "Vendors must be aware that in order for operators to better
>>   troubleshoot and manage networks with increasing amounts of =
encrypted
>>   traffic, built-in diagnostics and serviceability must be enhanced =
to
>>   provide detailed logging and debugging capabilities that, when
>>   possible, can reveal cleartext network parameters."
>>=20
>> If I try to paraphrase this it sounds like "vendors should build in
>> capabilities to decrypt encrypted traffic." Was that the intent?
>=20
> This text has been modified as a result of the OPS-Dir review and is
> much more helpful, IMO.  It's in a few of the recent versions.
>=20
> NEW:
> A gap exists for vendors where built-in diagnostics and serviceability
> is not adequate to provide detailed logging and debugging capabilities
> that, when possible, can access cleartext network parameters.

I can=E2=80=99t follow the grammar of the above sentence to discern what =
it means, but I agree that it no longer has the problem I pointed out in =
my ballot.

> In
> addition to traditional logging and debugging methods, packet tracing
> and inspection along the service path provides operators the
> visibility to continue to diagnose problems reported both internally
> and by their customers. Logging of service path upon exit for routing
> overlay protocols will assist with policy management and
> troubleshooting capabilities for traffic flows on encrypted networks.
> Protocol trace logging and protocol data unit (PDU) logging should
> also be considered to improve visibility to monitor and troubleshoot
> application level traffic. Additional work on this gap would assist
> network operators to better troubleshoot and manage networks with
> increasing amounts of encrypted traffic.
>=20
>>=20
>> =3D Section 2.2.4 =3D
>>=20
>> I agree with Christian Huitema's unresolved comments on this section. =
In the
>> thread regarding his comments Kathleen said "we don't want to make =
general
>> statements that aren't necessarily true" -- IMO that is what the =
middle three
>> paragraphs in this section are doing. At a minimum, I think the
>> characterizations about the effects of performance-enhancing proxies =
needs to
>> be qualified by saying "some operators find that ..." rather than =
stating their
>> effects as fact.
>=20
> The following edits have been made to address this comment:
>=20
> Operators report that this optimization at network edges measurably
> improves real-time transmission over long delay Internet paths or
> networks with large capacity-variation (such as mobile/cellular
> networks). However, such optimizations can also cause problems with
> performance, for example if the characteristics of some packet streams
> begin to vary significantly from those considered in the proxy design.
>=20
> In general some operators have stated that performance-enhancing
> proxies have a lower Round-Trip Time (RTT) to the client and therefore
> determine the responsiveness of flow control. A lower RTT makes the
> flow control loop more responsive to changes in the mobile network
> conditions and enables faster adaptation in a delay and capacity
> varying network due to user mobility.
>=20
> Further, some use service-provider-operated proxies to reduce the
> control delay between the sender and a receiver on a mobile network
> where resources are limited. The RTT determines how quickly a user's
> attempt to cancel a video is recognized and therefore how quickly the
> traffic is stopped, thus keeping un-wanted video packets from entering
> the radio scheduler queue. If impacted by encryption, performance
> enhancing proxies could make use of routing overlay protocols to
> accomplish the same task, but this results in additional overhead.

Much improved, thanks.

>=20
>>=20
>> =3D Section 2.2.7 =3D
>>=20
>> "There is work in progress to specify protocols that permit Service
>>   Function Chaining (SFC)."
>>=20
>> I don't think it makes sense to have this forward-looking statement =
when
>> Section 1 states that "This document describes practices currently =
used by
>> network operators to manage, operate, and secure their networks." I =
think it
>> makes sense to focus this section on how existing SFC deployments =
have stopped
>> functioning because of increased use of encrypted traffic, but it =
seems unfair
>> to claim that some future, yet-to-deployed functionality will be =
broken.
>=20
> The work is continuing, so it was poor phrasing that has been
> corrected.  This came in from the Gen-ART reviewer, whose in the
> routing area.  I checked with Alia on the new text as she confirmed
> the only new part of SFC is NSH.  SFC has been around for a while as I
> have a colleague who worked on it years ago at Cisco.  This seems
> pretty straightforward for the adjustments given the drafts that have
> recently been approved, even for NSH.
>=20
> Service Function Chaining (SFC) has been defined in RFC7665 and &
> RFC8300.  As discussed in RFC 7498, common SFC deployments may use
> classifiers to direct traffic into VLANs instead of using NSH, as
> defined in RFC 8300.   As described in RFC7665, the ordered steering
> steering of traffic to support specific optimizations depends upon the
> ability of a Classifier to determine the microflows.  RFC2474 defines
> "Microflow: a single instance of an application-to-application flow of
> packets which is identified by source address, destination address,
> protocol id, and source port, destination port (where applicable). "
> SFC currently depends upon a classifier to at least identify the
> microflow.  As the classifier's visibility is reduced from a 5-tuple
> to a 2-tuple, or if information above the transport layer becomes
> unaccessible, then the SFC Classifier is not able to perform its job
> and the service functions of the path may be adversely affected.
>=20
> There are also mechanisms provided to protect security and privacy. In
> the SFC case, the layer below a network service header can be
> protected with session encryption. A goal is protecting end-user data,
> while retaining the intended functions of RFC7665 at the same time.

Looks good, thanks.

>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> =3D Section 2.3.2 =3D
>>=20
>> "As a
>>   result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
>>   which is a far less optimal customer experience because the =
blocking
>>   reason must be conveyed by some other means."
>>=20
>> This could easily be read to imply that sending requests in cleartext =
is
>> optimal.
>=20
> I read it differently, the customer experience is less optimal as they
> don't have a way to provide notification via another means yet for non
> SMS customers.
>=20
> I tweaked a word in that sentence to see if it helps direct where the
> 'less optimal" is intended and am including text that is from recent
> versions after discussion with Adam that you may find helpful.
>=20
> As a result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
> which impacts customer experience because the blocking reason must be
> conveyed by some other means. The customer may need to call customer
> care to find out the reason and/or resolve the issue, possibly
> extending the time needed to restore their network access. While there
> are well deployed alternate SMS-based solutions that do not involve
> out of specification protocol interception, this is still an unsolved
> problem for non-SMS users.
>=20
> Often was removed from the last paragraph as well.

Much improved, thanks.

Nit fixes look fine to me.

Thanks,
Alissa

>=20
>>=20
>> Overall, the use of the words "usual," "optimal," and "often" in this =
section
>> imply a level of generality that is unwarranted I think.
>>=20
>> =3D Section 5.6 =3D
>>=20
>> The implications for SAVI seem speculative unless you can point to =
SAVI
>> deployments that have been impacted by increased use of encryption.
>>=20
>=20
> Al may have been pulled int he original content here, so on my last
> round of editing, I reached out  to Joel and SAVI is deployed in China
> and the text is based on how the protocol works, hence the clear
> impact to those using it.
>=20
>> Nits:
>>=20
>> =3D Abstract =3D
>>=20
>> s/Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy of Internet users =
is
>>   of serious concern/Pervasive Monitoring (PM) attacks on the privacy =
of
>>   Internet users are of serious concern/
>=20
> Thanks, thank has been fixed already.
>>=20
>> =3D Section 2.1.2 =3D
>>=20
>> (1)
>> "Further, the performance of some services can be more efficiently
>>   managed and repaired when information on user transactions is
>>   available to the service provider.  It may be possible to continue
>>   such monitoring activities without clear text access to the
>>   application layers of interest ..."
>>=20
>> It's not clear what "such monitoring" refers to, since the previous =
sentence is
>> about performance management and service repair.
>=20
> Transaction monitoring, so the text has been altered to make this
> explicit.  Thanks.
>=20
>>=20
>> (2)
>> Is "User/Service Key Quality Indicators" a term of art? It seems =
weird to be
>> capitalized.
>=20
> I put it in lower case, but am guessing it is normally KQIs and should
> be lower case when spelled out.
>=20
>>=20
>> =3D Section 2.2.3 =3D
>>=20
>> This section seems like it was left in the document by mistake.
>=20
> The text has been updated with a reference where the impact is noted.
>=20
>>=20
>> =3D Section 2.3 =3D
>>=20
>> "As previously stated, the intent of this document is to
>>   document existing practices, the development of IETF protocols
>>   follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804]."
>>=20
>> Is that comma supposed to be a period? I'm not following the grammar =
here.
>=20
> This has been altered in an existing version to the following text:
>=20
> As previously stated, the intent of this document is to document
> existing practices; the development of IETF protocols follows the
> guiding principles of RFC1984 and RFC2804 and explicitly do not
> support tools and methods that could be used for wiretapping and
> censorship.
>=20
>>=20
>> =3D Section 2.3.1 =3D
>>=20
>> s/However, the lack of ability to efficiently manage
>>   endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to offer parental
>>   control./However, the lack of ability to efficiently manage
>>   endpoints as a service reduces network service providers' ability =
to offer
>>   parental control./
>=20
> Done.
>=20
>>=20
>> =3D Section 4.1.2 =3D
>>=20
>> It seems like a single reference to RFC 8250 would suffice.
>=20
> The second use points to a specific section within the document, so
> I'd prefer to leave that.  Since this is editorial, we can worry about
> this later and address it witht he RFC editor.  This happens in a few
> other places too.  We'll do something consistent.
>=20
>>=20
>> =3D Section 7.4 =3D
>>=20
>> What is a trusted transit proxy?
>=20
> In transit as opposed to edge.  We adjusted the text in a prior
> version, which should help:
>=20
> NEW(ish):
> Transport header encryption prevents the use of transit proxies in
> center of the network and the use of some edge proxies by preventing
> the proxies from taking action on the stream.
>=20
> Thanks for your comments to improve the document.
> Kathleen
>=20
>>=20
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Previous DISCUSS ballot text:
>>=20
>> I have cleared my original DISCUSS point from my earlier review -- I =
get what
>> the text is saying now, although I still think the "lose the option" =
language
>> implies some entitlement to the option in the first place, which =
seems
>> inappropriate.
>>=20
>> But given the reviews from Martin Thomson and Christian Huitema, it's =
not clear
>> to me that this document represents the consensus view of the IETF =
community.
>> Kathleen's response to Martin reinforces the point that we were =
discussing in
>> the first ballot cycle, which is that this document is written for =
and
>> represents operators, not the broader array of Internet interests. =
Yet the
>> suggestion to state that fact up front in the document was not =
adopted.
>>=20
>> Having had some more time to review this document than I had in the =
previous
>> ballot cycle, I also am finding myself in agreement with significant =
portions
>> of the reviews from Martin and Christian. Reading their reviews =
helped
>> crystallize a lot of the difficulty I had in parsing this document =
the first
>> time around.
>>=20
>> I understand the rationale that led to this document being written =
and I think
>> there is a version of this document that could be written that would =
achieve
>> the original goals while giving the subject matter a readable, =
neutral
>> treatment. Such a version would be a useful contribution. But I don't =
think
>> this document achieves that. In particular, there are four things =
that I think
>> it would need to do to achieve that:
>>=20
>> 1. State the analysis in a neutral way. As I had mentioned in one of =
the email
>> threads for the previous ballot cycle, I believe this document could =
be written
>> in a neutral way -- e.g., =E2=80=9CService providers currently do X. =
It is implemented
>> using Y mechanism. Encryption at Z layer breaks current =
implementations.=E2=80=9D --
>> but it is not. Instead it characterizes many of the practices =
described as
>> "optimizations" or "features" or "enrichment" and states service =
providers'
>> claims about what these practices accomplish (e.g., "maximize QOE") =
as facts
>> rather than stating them as the reasons given by service providers =
for why they
>> engage in the practices. This is why in the previous round I =
suggested the
>> disclaimer at the top of the document to say that the document is =
giving a view
>> from service providers; that apparently didn't go anywhere, so the =
other option
>> is to describe each technique neutrally, or explain with each =
technique that
>> the characterization of the benefits is from the view of the =
operator. Martin's
>> comments about being clear about who is benefitting point this out as =
well.
>>=20
>> 2. Limit the discussion to techniques presently being affected and =
those
>> effects. There is a bunch of extemporizing about future possible =
impacts (e.g.,
>> in Sec. 2.7, 4.1.2, 4.1.3.1, 5.7, 7, 8). It's very hard to =
characterize future
>> implications, who will bear the "cost" for what, whether increases in =
user
>> complaints to various parties are "worth it," etc., in a way that is =
perceived
>> as neutral by all affected parties. Better not to make predictions if =
the goal
>> is to give a neutral treatment of network functions being impacted =
today.
>>=20
>> 3. Acknowledge the controversy. Many of the practices described in =
this
>> document are controversial, and have been for a long time. There is =
nothing
>> wrong with that. I agree with Christian that it would be better to =
state an
>> understanding of that head-on rather than leave it to the reader to =
decide
>> whether any particular characterization of something described =
implies an
>> endorsement of it. This has been done before, even in potentially =
controversial
>> documents that this document references, e.g. RFC 3135.
>>=20
>> 4. Structure the document in a way that is consistent and logical =
with minimal
>> repetition. It seems like there are multiple ways that this could be =
done.
>> Organizing based on use case (per Christian) and then discussing =
techniques
>> used within each use case is one way; organizing based on technique =
while
>> mentioning the goals for which each technique is employed is another. =
At
>> present the document is jumble of these.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen


From nobody Wed Feb 28 08:50:30 2018
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From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 08:49:30 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Kathleen Moriarty 
Cc: Warren Kumari ,  Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Benoit Claise ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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No worries. Looking forward to your thoughts on my comments.

-Ekr


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Kathleen Moriarty <
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, I wasn=E2=80=99t able to task switch to editing the document yeste=
rday with
> other work obligations.
>
> Best,
> Kathleen
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote=
:
>
>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
>>  wrote:
>> > Hi, Benoit,
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
>> >
>> >
>> > Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an
>> up/down
>> > vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed
>> text
>> > changes.
>>
>> [ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical entry
>> point ]
>>
>> ... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for
>> people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --
>> but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay
>> attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".
>>
>> I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to
>> address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the
>> current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a
>> friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final
>> version will actually look like.
>> So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)
>> on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD
>> will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the
>> Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.
>>
>> Confused yet? :-P
>>
>
> Hi Warren,
>
> Thanks for this note.
>
> It's too bad that we aren't able to see the proposed revisions at this
> point, but I appreciate your commitment to working through the
> remaining issues, and I think we should be able to reach a
> satisfactory resolution. In the interest of not forcing everyone to
> read the document by tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot to
> Abstain.
>
> Best,
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've
>> balloted on
>> > as an AD :-)
>> >
>>
>> Indeed.
>> W
>>
>> > Spencer
>> >
>> >>
>> >> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
>> >>
>> >> Regards, Benoit
>> >>
>> >> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I'=
m
>> 0
>> >> for 2 so far today.
>> >>
>> >> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
>> >>
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
>> >> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree to
>> >> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
>> >>
>> >> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to a
>> >> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing an
>> >> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
>> >>
>> >> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely),
>> but I
>> >> don't know what we're doing.
>> >>
>> >> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either as
>> IESG
>> >> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other
>> people have
>> >> different expectations.
>> >>
>> >> Spencer
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OPSAWG mailing list
>> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OPSAWG mailing list
>> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
>> idea in the first place.
>> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
>> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
>> of pants.
>>    ---maf
>>
>
>

--001a113b7f1850503805664889b7
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No worries. Looking forward to your thoughts on my comment=
s.

-Ekr


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
=

Sorry, I wasn=E2=80=99t ab=
le to task switch to editing the document yesterday with other work obligat=
ions. =C2=A0

Best,
Kathleen=C2=A0

Sent from my mobile device

On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:45 AM, Eric Resco=
rla <ekr@rtfm.com&=
gt; wrote:


On Tue, Feb 27, =
2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IE=
TF

<spen=
cerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Benoit,

>

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

>>

>> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.

>

>

> Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an =
up/down

> vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the proposed=
 text

> changes.



[ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical ent=
ry point ]



... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for

people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --

but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay

attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".



I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to

address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the

current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a

friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final

version will actually look like.

So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)

on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD

will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the

Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.



Confused yet? :-P

Hi Warren,
=

Thanks for this note.

It's too =
bad that we aren't able to see the proposed revisions at this
point, but I appreciate your commitment to working through the
r=
emaining issues, and I think we should be able to reach a
satisfa=
ctory resolution. In the interest of not forcing everyone to
read=
 the document by tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot to
A=
bstain.

Best,
-Ekr

<=
div>



=C2=A0





>

> That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I'v=
e balloted on

> as an AD :-)

>



Indeed.

W=





> Spencer

>

>>

>> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.<=
br>
>>

>> Regards, Benoit

>>

>> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least,=
 I'm 0

>> for 2 so far today.

>>

>> Are we still tuning text in this draft?

>>

>> https://www.ietf.org/standards/pro=
cess/iesg-ballots/ says that the

>> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree=
 to

>> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.

>>

>> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'=
;d get to a

>> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be d=
oing an

>> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.

>>

>> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lo=
vely), but I

>> don't know what we're doing.

>>

>> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (ei=
ther as IESG

>> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and oth=
er people have

>> different expectations.

>>

>> Spencer

>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> OPSAWG mailing list

>> OPSAWG@ietf.o=
rg

>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsa=
wg

>>

>>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> OPSAWG mailing list

> OPSAWG@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg

>








--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad

idea in the first place.

This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing

regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair

of pants.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf








--001a113b7f1850503805664889b7--


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References: <151806627444.17073.14252972331367641645.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>        <17624303-E41F-48A3-9462-4578F8A971E3@gmail.com> 
From: Warren Kumari 
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 12:06:18 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty ,  Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Benoit Claise ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
> No worries. Looking forward to your thoughts on my comments.
>

Me too! I've created a repo
(https://github.com/wkumari/effect-encrypt) where I'll be placing the
new version to all for easier viewing / diffs.

W


> -Ekr
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
>  wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, I wasn=E2=80=99t able to task switch to editing the document yest=
erday with
>> other work obligations.
>>
>> Best,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> Sent from my mobile device
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari  wrot=
e:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
>>>  wrote:
>>> > Hi, Benoit,
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise 
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an
>>> > up/down
>>> > vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the propose=
d
>>> > text
>>> > changes.
>>>
>>> [ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical entry
>>> point ]
>>>
>>> ... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for
>>> people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --
>>> but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay
>>> attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".
>>>
>>> I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to
>>> address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both the
>>> current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a
>>> friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final
>>> version will actually look like.
>>> So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)
>>> on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD
>>> will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the
>>> Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.
>>>
>>> Confused yet? :-P
>>
>>
>> Hi Warren,
>>
>> Thanks for this note.
>>
>> It's too bad that we aren't able to see the proposed revisions at this
>> point, but I appreciate your commitment to working through the
>> remaining issues, and I think we should be able to reach a
>> satisfactory resolution. In the interest of not forcing everyone to
>> read the document by tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot to
>> Abstain.
>>
>> Best,
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've
>>> > balloted on
>>> > as an AD :-)
>>> >
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>> W
>>>
>>> > Spencer
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards, Benoit
>>> >>
>>> >> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least, I=
'm
>>> >> 0
>>> >> for 2 so far today.
>>> >>
>>> >> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
>>> >> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree t=
o
>>> >> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
>>> >>
>>> >> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get to =
a
>>> >> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing a=
n
>>> >> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely),
>>> >> but I
>>> >> don't know what we're doing.
>>> >>
>>> >> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either a=
s
>>> >> IESG
>>> >> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other
>>> >> people have
>>> >> different expectations.
>>> >>
>>> >> Spencer
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> OPSAWG mailing list
>>> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > OPSAWG mailing list
>>> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
>>> idea in the first place.
>>> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
>>> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
>>> of pants.
>>>    ---maf
>>
>>
>



--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf


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From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 09:07:38 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Warren Kumari 
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty ,  Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Benoit Claise ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org,  The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Thank you.

-Ekr


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
> > No worries. Looking forward to your thoughts on my comments.
> >
>
> Me too! I've created a repo
> (https://github.com/wkumari/effect-encrypt) where I'll be placing the
> new version to all for easier viewing / diffs.
>
> W
>
>
> > -Ekr
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> Sorry, I wasn=E2=80=99t able to task switch to editing the document ye=
sterday
> with
> >> other work obligations.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Kathleen
> >>
> >> Sent from my mobile device
> >>
> >> On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
> >>>  wrote:
> >>> > Hi, Benoit,
> >>> >
> >>> > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise 
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments forever.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Right. But my concern was that the text that we're reading for an
> >>> > up/down
> >>> > vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking the
> proposed
> >>> > text
> >>> > changes.
> >>>
> >>> [ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logical entr=
y
> >>> point ]
> >>>
> >>> ... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 days for
> >>> people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on that --
> >>> but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will pay
> >>> attention to comments received and "Do the right thing".
> >>>
> >>> I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes to
> >>> address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting both th=
e
> >>> current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for a
> >>> friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the final
> >>> version will actually look like.
> >>> So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is cleared)
> >>> on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that the AD
> >>> will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off the
> >>> Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.
> >>>
> >>> Confused yet? :-P
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Warren,
> >>
> >> Thanks for this note.
> >>
> >> It's too bad that we aren't able to see the proposed revisions at this
> >> point, but I appreciate your commitment to working through the
> >> remaining issues, and I think we should be able to reach a
> >> satisfactory resolution. In the interest of not forcing everyone to
> >> read the document by tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot to
> >> Abstain.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other draft I've
> >>> > balloted on
> >>> > as an AD :-)
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> Indeed.
> >>> W
> >>>
> >>> > Spencer
> >>> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >> And we need to resolve this one before the current ADs step down.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards, Benoit
> >>> >>
> >>> >> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehension. At least,
> I'm
> >>> >> 0
> >>> >> for 2 so far today.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Are we still tuning text in this draft?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the
> >>> >> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we either agree
> to
> >>> >> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagine that we'd get t=
o
> a
> >>> >> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and wouldn't be doing
> an
> >>> >> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I find that lovely=
),
> >>> >> but I
> >>> >> don't know what we're doing.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure executed (either
> as
> >>> >> IESG
> >>> >> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't get it, and other
> >>> >> people have
> >>> >> different expectations.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Spencer
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> OPSAWG mailing list
> >>> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > OPSAWG mailing list
> >>> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
> >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
> >>> idea in the first place.
> >>> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressin=
g
> >>> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
> >>> of pants.
> >>>    ---maf
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
> idea in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
> of pants.
>    ---maf
>

--94eb2c072d762b02bd056648ca2f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Thank you.

-Ekr


On Wed, Feb 28=
, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:<=
br>
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at =
11:49 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> No worries. Looking forward to your thoughts on my comments.

>



Me too! I've created a repo

(https://github.com/wkumari/effect-encrypt) where =
I'll be placing the

new version to all for easier viewing / diffs.



W






> -Ekr

>

>

> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Kathleen Moriarty

> <kathleen.moria=
rty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>> Sorry, I wasn=E2=80=99t able to task switch to editing the documen=
t yesterday with

>> other work obligations.

>>

>> Best,

>> Kathleen

>>

>> Sent from my mobile device

>>

>> On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:

>>>

>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF

>>> <spencerda=
wkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> > Hi, Benoit,

>>> >

>>> > On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>

>>> > wrote:

>>> >>

>>> >> The way I see it, we're going to fix comments for=
ever.

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > Right. But my concern was that the text that we're re=
ading for an

>>> > up/down

>>> > vote can change after we read it, so I should be tracking=
 the proposed

>>> > text

>>> > changes.

>>>

>>> [ Updating in the middle of the thread as this seems the logic=
al entry

>>> point ]

>>>

>>> ... so, we are not updating the current version (we wanted 7 d=
ays for

>>> people to read it), and so will be (I believe) balloting on th=
at --

>>> but, just like any other document we ballot on, the RAD will p=
ay

>>> attention to comments received and "Do the right thing&qu=
ot;.

>>>

>>> I believe that EKRs comments are helpful, and Kathleen hopes t=
o

>>> address / incorporate them before the call. I will be putting =
both the

>>> current (being balloted on) and updated version in GitHub (for=
 a

>>> friendly web enabled diff) so that people can see what the fin=
al

>>> version will actually look like.

>>> So, I guess we are formally balloting (unless the DISCUSS is c=
leared)

>>> on the text as written (-22), but with an understanding that t=
he AD

>>> will make it look like the version in GitHub before taking off=
 the

>>> Approved, Revised ID needed / AD follow-up flag.

>>>

>>> Confused yet? :-P

>>

>>

>> Hi Warren,

>>

>> Thanks for this note.

>>

>> It's too bad that we aren't able to see the proposed revis=
ions at this

>> point, but I appreciate your commitment to working through the

>> remaining issues, and I think we should be able to reach a

>> satisfactory resolution. In the interest of not forcing everyone t=
o

>> read the document by tomorrow, I'm going to change my ballot t=
o

>> Abstain.

>>

>> Best,

>> -Ekr

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> >

>>> > That doesn't seem up/down. It seems like every other =
draft I've

>>> > balloted on

>>> > as an AD :-)

>>> >

>>>

>>> Indeed.

>>> W

>>>

>>> > Spencer

>>> >

>>> >>

>>> >> And we need to resolve this one before the current AD=
s step down.

>>> >>

>>> >> Regards, Benoit

>>> >>

>>> >> This may not be my week, when it comes to comprehensi=
on. At least, I'm

>>> >> 0

>>> >> for 2 so far today.

>>> >>

>>> >> Are we still tuning text in this draft?

>>> >>

>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/=
standards/process/iesg-ballots/ says that the

>>> >> alternate balloting procedure is an up/down vote - we=
 either agree to

>>> >> publish, or agree to send a document off for rework.<=
br>
>>> >>

>>> >> If we're still resolving comments, one can imagin=
e that we'd get to a

>>> >> one-Discuss situation, or even no Discusses, and woul=
dn't be doing an

>>> >> Alternate Ballot on Thursday.

>>> >>

>>> >> I don't object to resolving comments (actually, I=
 find that lovely),

>>> >> but I

>>> >> don't know what we're doing.

>>> >>

>>> >> I've never seen the alternate balloting procedure=
 executed (either as

>>> >> IESG

>>> >> scribe or as an IESG member), so maybe I don't ge=
t it, and other

>>> >> people have

>>> >> different expectations.

>>> >>

>>> >> Spencer

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >> _______________________________________________<=
br>
>>> >> OPSAWG mailing list

>>> >> OPSAWG@ietf.org

>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/opsawg

>>> >>

>>> >>

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > _______________________________________________

>>> > OPSAWG mailing list

>>> > OPSAWG@ietf.org
>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/opsawg

>>> >

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> --

>>> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviou=
sly a bad

>>> idea in the first place.

>>> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later ex=
pressing

>>> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and tha=
t pair

>>> of pants.

>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ---maf

>>

>>

>







--

I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad

idea in the first place.

This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing

regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair

of pants.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf





--94eb2c072d762b02bd056648ca2f--


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References: <151806627444.17073.14252972331367641645.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  
From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 22:04:35 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: The IESG , opsawg@ietf.org, Warren Kumari ,  Paul Hoffman , draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Thanks for your responses.  Inline responses to EKRs responses.  I
think there were some additional recent on list comments that still
need to be addressed and any adjustments from this discussion.  I just
posted to the datatracker as it didn't seem like we needed to use
github now that there isn't an alternate ballot procedure.

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
> Thanks for the updated draft. Some responses below.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> > DISCUSS
>> >    session encryption that deployed more easily instead of no
>> >    encryption.
>> >
>> > I think I understand what you are saying here, but the term
>> > "breakable" seems very unfortunate, especially in the context of this
>> > document. The only such shift I am aware of that has received
>> > acceptance in IETF is one from always requiring fully authenticated
>> > encryption to allowing unauthenticated encryption, which you document
>> > in the next paragraph. I recognize that there are other perspectives
>> > (e.g., those in draft-rhrd) but those are pretty far from IETF
>> > consenus. Accordingly, I think you should remove this sentence.
>>
>> Opportunistic security was well discussed, so that was likely top of
>> mind for you when reading this draft. However there are other areas
>> where the IETF decided breakable encryption was better than none in
>> recent years.  Another adopted and published example is in the mail
>> community.  Deprecating MD5 was deemed to be too hard because of
>> support in a particular library.  We had lengthy discussions about
>> this for RFC7627 (see sect 6.2) and related drafts, now published
>> RFCs.
>
>
> I continue to think that the term "breakable" is very unfortunate here
> (and of course, MD5 isn't breakable "encryption").

Sure, but OS is breakable, and both are not the most secure options
available today (known weaknesses).  This is a big shift in thinking.
Even for ACME, when similar ideas were previously presented, they were
not acceptable because of the industry/IETF desire to preserve
security and ideas of what is acceptable.

>
> It seems to me that there are four areas where one might think that
> compromises ought to be made:
>
> 1. Not deploying comsec at all because it's too hard (you allude to this
> later).
> 2. Not deprecating weak algorithms because they are already deployed
> (the case of MD5 and the like)
> 3. Rolling out unauthenticated or opportunistic encryption.
> 4. Rolling out weak algorithms rather than strong ones.
>
> I agree we do 1-3, but my experience is we try pretty hard to avoid #4, and
> that's how I read "breakable encryption".

There were big arguments around this idea included with the SMTP mail
discussions and some even thought this was a consensus statement from
the OS draft, and it is not.  I personally worked to make sure that
statement was not included as a consensus one as there has not been a
specific consensus call on breakable encryption.  It has been
discussed and has been pretty divided.  4 isn't a matter of rolling
new, but really more of 3, keeping existing and not deprecating.

> It's also generally not easier
> to deploy. I think a better way to phrase this would be to say something
> like:
>
> "Perspectives on encryption paradigms have shifted over time to
> incorporporate
> ease of deployment as a high priority, and balance that against providing
> the
> maximum possible level of security regardless of deployment considerations"
>

I'm fine with this wording suggestion.

>>
>> >    motivation outside of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are
>> >    driving end-to-end encryption for these content providers.
>> >
>> > This section seems kind of confusing, at least as applied to
>> > HTTP. There are three kinds of cache in HTTP:
>> >
>> > - Reverse proxy caches (the kind CDNs run)
>> > - Explicit forward proxy caches
>> > - "Transparent" intercepting caches
>> >
>> > The first of these move to HTTPS just fine and that's typically how
>> > CDNs do it.  Explicit forward proxy caches are largely going away, but
>> > part of the point of this kind of end-to-end encryption is to hide
>> > data from those caches.
>>
>> Sure, that point was made in the draft and cleared up a little further
>> from Benjamin K's review.  The business risk associated with not
>> controlling your content was more explicitly stated for CDNs who have
>> moved to an e2e approach.
>>
>> Here's the updated sentence:
>>    The business risk of losing control of content is a motivation outside
>>    of privacy and pervasive monitoring that are driving end-to-end
>>    encryption for these content providers.
>
>
>>
>> > Transparent intercepting caches that the user
>> > didn't opt into are a bad thing, so having them go away is a positive.
>>
>> The text says authorized parties, so this is referring to caches where
>> there is an agreement in place for this usage.
>
>
> It says "authorized parties acting on their behalf", but it's not clear to
> me on whose behalf. There is a sharp distinction here between the
> network operator and the user. Who did you have in mind?
>

I made the following edit to clarify:

    and the service provider through an authorized agreement acting

>
>>
>>   CDN's that wish to
>> block this behavior have the option to require e2e.  That trend alone
>> may be enough to kill this type of service offering.  I don't see why
>> it shouldn't be mentioned in terms of it's current use.  What change
>> are you looking to see here?
>
>
> I see you added the following text
>
>    It should be noted that caching was first supported in [RFC1945] and
>    continued in the recent update of "Hypertext Transfer Protocol
>    (HTTP/1.1): Caching" in [RFC7234].
>
> I would rewrite this:
>
>    It should be noted that explicit caching was first supported in [RFC1945]
> and
>    continued in the recent update of "Hypertext Transfer Protocol
>    (HTTP/1.1): Caching" in [RFC7234]. Some operators also operate
>    transparent caches which neither the user nor the origin opt-in to.
>    The use of these caches is controversial within IETF and is generally
>    precluded by the use of HTTPS.
>

Sure, text added.  Thanks for providing it.

s/opt-in to./opt-in./

>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >    document existing practices, the development of IETF protocols
>> >    follows the guiding principles of [RFC1984] and [RFC2804].
>> >
>> > This is pretty opaque in this context. It should explicitly state that
>> > the IETF's position is that we do not engineer for these use cases,
>> > not just to cite the RFCs.
>>
>> We can add the following (or suggest something else):
>>
>> "and explicitly do not support tools and methods that could be used
>> for wiretapping and censorship."
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>> >    based billing, or for other reasons, possibly considered
>> >    inappropriate by some.  See RFC7754 [RFC7754] for a survey of
>> >    Internet filtering techniques and motivations.  This section is
>> >
>> > I don't think this accurately represents the RFC, which makes clear
>> > that the IAB consensus is that filtering is bad:
>> >
>> > " From a technical perspective, there are no perfect or even good
>> > solutions -- there is only least bad.  On that front, we posit that a
>> > hybrid approach that combines endpoint-based filtering with network
>> > filtering may prove least damaging.  An endpoint may choose to
>> > participate in a filtering regime in exchange for the network
>> > providing broader unfiltered access."
>>
>> I've added the following to the end of the sentence as the RFC is too
>> long to repeat what is already in 7754:
>>
>>    "and the IAB consensus on those mechanisms."
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>> >
>> >    detect or prevent attacks as well as to guarantee service level
>> >    expectations.  In some cases, alternate options are available when
>> >    encryption is in use, but techniques like that of data leakage
>> >
>> > These certainly are use cases, but you really need to acknowledge that
>> > it's also a form of user surveillance.
>> >
>>
>> This is referring to corporate networks.  The rules are a bit
>> different since you get a paycheck and agree to monitoring, sign an
>> acknowledgement as an employee then operate on their equipment and
>> network.
>>
>> To help make this point more clear, I've added text into section 4.1,
>> let us know if this does not address your concern:
>>
>> OLD:
>> Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and
>> network infrastructure that provide critical business services to
>> their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for
>> all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of
>> experience for all user sessions. These responsibilities break down
>> into three basic areas:
>>
>> NEW:
>> Large corporate enterprises are the owners of the platforms, data, and
>> network infrastructure that provide critical business services to
>> their user communities. As such, these enterprises are responsible for
>> all aspects of the performance, availability, security, and quality of
>> experience for all user sessions. Users typically sign agreements
>> acknowledging that they are subject to monitoring while operating on
>> corporate networks. Subsections of 4. Encryption for Enterprises may
>> discuss techniques that access data beyond the data-link, network, and
>> transport level headers typically used in SP networks since the
>> corporate enterprise owns the data. These responsibilities break down
>> into three basic areas:
>
>
> To be honest, this revision seems more like it's endorsing this practice.
> What
> I'm looking for is an acknowledgement that this isn't really something
> employees
> want, but is forced upon them by the enterprise.
>
> To take your text as a starting point, I propose:
>
> "In many such enterprises, users are required to consent to the enterprise
> monitoring all their activities as a condition of employment".
>

Text updated, thanks.

>
>>
>> This was one of the reasons why we felt it was important to keep
>> section 4 separate.
>>
>> >
>> >    Some DLP tools intercept traffic at the Internet gateway or proxy
>> >    services with the ability to man-in-the-middle (MiTM) encrypted
>> >    session traffic (HTTP/TLS).  These tools may use key words important
>> >    to the enterprise including business sensitive information such as
>> >    trade secrets, financial data, personally identifiable information
>> >    (PII), or personal health information (PHI).  Various techniques are
>> >    used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and other purposes, and
>> >    are described in "Summarizing Known Attacks on TLS and DTLS"
>> >    [RFC7457].
>> >
>> > As far as I know, the MITM techniques used by middleboxes are not
>> > described in 7457.
>>
>> The use of an RSA static key is discussed in terms of the danger of
>> using this approach in Section 2.8. I updated the text slightly to
>> make this point more clear and added the section reference:
>>
>> Various techniques are used to intercept HTTP/TLS sessions for DLP and
>> other purposes, and can be misused as described in "Summarizing Known
>> Attacks on TLS and DTLS [RFC7457] Section 2.8.
>
>
> Section 2.8 explicitly is about passive attacks, but MITM boxes are active,
> so I don't think that 7457, while a valuable document, covers this.

Not all enterprise MiTM boxes are active, the ones cited by the
enterprise folks talking on the TLS list are not modifying traffic,
but just allowing for inspection.  They are viewing the traffic for
troubleshooting after the fact with captured traffic for instance,
which does not involve modification/active attacks.

>
>
>>
>> > You also need to cover the fact that these MITM are a threat to user
>> > security because they are often so badly implemented.
>>
>> I think 7457 does a good job of that.  Let us know if you have
>> proposed text if the above fix isn't enough for you coupled with this
>> being in the Enterprise section.
>
> Yeah, I still think this is missing something. Proposed new text:
>
> The text I would propose here is:
> "Aside from exposing user information to the enterprise MITM devices often
> are subject to severe security defects which can lead to exposure of user
> data to attackers outside the enterprise [0]. In addition, implementation
> errors in middleboxes have lead to major difficulties in deploying new
> versions of security protocols such as TLS [Ben17a][Ben17b][Res17a][Res17b]

Including the text
s/lead/led/

I may leave out the email references as the presentation covers the
point and is a slightly better reference than an email.  The RFC
editor would likely cut them anyway.

>
> [0] @inproceedings{Bursztein2017TheSecuri, title={The Security Impact of
> HTTPS Interception},author={Durumeric, Zakir and Ma, Zane and Springall,
> Drew and Barnes, Richard and Sullivan, Nick and Bursztein, Elie and Bailey,
> Michael and Halderman, J Alex and Paxson, Vern},booktitle={Network and
> Distributed Systems Symposium},year={2017},organization={Internet Society}}
>
>    [Ben17a]   Benjamin, D., "Presentation before the TLS WG at IETF
>               100", 2017,
>                              slides-100-tls-sessa-tls13/>.
>
>    [Ben17b]   Benjamin, D., "Additional TLS 1.3 results from Chrome",
>               2017,                msg25168.html>.
>
>     [Res17a]   Rescorla, E., "Preliminary data on Firefox TLS 1.3
>               Middlebox experiment", 2017,                archive/web/tls/current/msg25091.html>.
>
>    [Res17b]   Rescorla, E., "More compatibility measurement results",
>               2017,                msg25179.html>.
>
>
>
>> >     The transport header encryption prevents trusted transit proxies.
>> > It
>> >    may be that the benefits of such proxies could be achieved by end to
>> >
>> > You don't define a "trusted transit proxy" so I don't know what this
>> > means, and whether they provide any benefit, but this certainly sounds
>> > euphemistic. Generally, "trusted" is not an adjective we associate
>> > with network proxies operated by third parties.
>>
>> We added a little more text on this per Benjamin's comment.  I'm
>> including the full text of the paragraph so this is not taken out of
>> context as endorsing such mechanisms as the text goes on to say other
>> ways it could be addressed in an encrypted Internet.  Here is the
>> text.
>>
>>      Transport header encryption prevents the use of transit proxies
>>      in center of the network and the use of some edge proxies by
>> preventing
>>      the proxies from taking action on the stream. It may be that the
>> benefits
>>      of such proxies could be achieved by end-to-end client and server
>>      optimizations, distribution using CDNs, plus the ability to continue
>>      connections across different access technologies (across dynamic
>>      user IP addresses).
>
>
> This text assumes that there are such benefits, but that's a point of
> contention. I would be fine if you put "claimed" in front of "benefits"

Update accepted.
>
>
>> >    In the best case scenario, engineers and other innovators would work
>> >    to solve the problems at hand in new ways rather than prevent the use
>> >    of encryption.  As stated in [RFC7258], "an appropriate balance
>> >    (between network management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time
>> >    as real instances of this tension are considered."
>> >
>> > Much of the context of this debate is about whether operators not
>> > being able to do the things in this document is a problem, and this
>> > seems to presume the answer.
>>
>> Section 8 has been overhauled in response to Deborah's comments. I see
>> what you mean in the wording and that was not intended. The goal of
>> the draft is to help improve adoption by talking about the issues and
>> bringing them to the surface for discussion (tough discussions that
>> need to happen).  Here is the current text.
>>
>> "As stated in [RFC7258] an appropriate balance (between network
>> management and PM mitigations) will emerge over time as real instances
>> of this tension are considered." Numerous operators made it clear in
>> their response to this document that they fully support strong
>> encryption and providing privacy for end users, this is a common goal.
>> Operators recognize not all the practices documented need to be
>> supported going forward, either because of the risk to end user
>> privacy or alternate technologies and tools have already emerged. This
>> document is intended to support network engineers and other innovators
>> to work toward solving network and security management problems with
>> protocol designers and application developers in new ways that
>> facilitate adoption of strong encryption rather than preventing the
>> use of encryption. By having the discussions on network and security
>> management practices with application developers and protocol
>> designers, each side of the debate can understand each others goals,
>> work toward alternate solutions, and disband with practices that
>> should no longer be supported. A goal of this document is to assist
>> the IETF to understand some of the current practices so as to identify
>> new work items for IETF-related use cases which can help facilitate
>> the adoption of strong session encryption and support network and
>> security management."
>
>
> Thanks. This is a large improvement.
>
>
>> >    This optimization at network edges measurably improves real-time
>> >    transmission over long delay Internet paths or networks with large
>> >
>> > Do you have a citation for this claim?
>>
>> The draft that this text refers to in the previous paragraph has a
>> section on performance enhancing proxies, section 3.5 and is referred
>> to right before this text. David Dolson was the contributor.
>
>
> Yes. Unfortunately that document itself provides no data to support its
> claims,
> so they need to be regarded as speculative, and certainly not have the
> word "measurably" attached to them, absent a citation.
>
>

Measurably has been removed.

>>
>> >    Web proxies are sometimes used to filter traffic, allowing only
>> >    access to well-known sites found to be legitimate and free of malware
>> >    on last check by a proxy service company.  This type of restriction
>> >    is usually not noticeable in a corporate setting as the typical
>> >    corporate user does not access sites that are not well-known to these
>> >    tools, but may be noticeable to those in research who are unable to
>> >    access colleague's individual sites or new web sites that have not
>> >    yet been screened.  In situations where new sites are required for
>> >    access, they can typically be added after notification by the user or
>> >    proxy log alerts and review.  Home mail account access may be blocked
>> >    in corporate settings to prevent another vector for malware to enter
>> >    as well as for intellectual property to leak out of the network.
>> >    This method remains functional with increased use of encryption and
>> >    may be more effective at preventing malware from entering the
>> >    network.  Web proxy solutions monitor and potentially restrict access
>> >    based on the destination URL or the DNS name.  A complete URL may be
>> >    used in cases where access restrictions vary for content on a
>> >    particular site or for the sites hosted on a particular server.
>> >
>> > If you are filtering on URL and there is HTTPS involved, then you are
>> > a MITM, and this is potentially noticeable to end-users. We encounter
>> > this regularly when MITM proxies make mistakes in getting into our
>> > trust anchor store.
>>
>> This is in the enterprise section where monitoring is accepted by end
>> users.  What is your proposal here?  I don't see an issue with
>> describing this usage.  Are you okay with this text since you also see
>> this as an issue and perhaps it needs more discussion?
>
>
> My objection is just to the claim "usually not noticeable". I would be fine
> with "This type of restriction is intended to be transparent to users in a
> corporate setting as the typical corporate user does not access sites
> which are not well-known to these tools. However, the mechanisms
> which these proxies use to do monitoring and enforcement have the
> potential to cause large-scale breakage or other user-visible failures."
>
>
For the large-scale breakage, are you referring to actual proxies that
terminate and restart the HTTS session?  With your example, it sounds
like that is the case.  This is just scanning the traffic for URL or
DNS to make decisions and doesn't terminate and restart the HTTPS
session.  If that's the case, I changed the first couple of sentences
to make this more clear as this is really just an enterprise level
product, so I don't think large-scale is an appropriate term here as
it's easy to override in the tool when needed.

I changed web proxy to web filtering devices and the last sentence
already explained that the URL and DNS were used for the filtering
determination.

NEW:
Web filtering devices are sometimes used to allow only access to
well-known sites found to be legitimate and free of malware on last
check by a web filtering service company. One common example of web
filtering in a corporate environment is blocking access to sites that
are not well-known to these tools for the purpose of blocking malware;
this may be noticeable to those in research who are unable to access
colleague's individual sites or new web sites that have not yet been
screened. In situations where new sites are required for access, they
can typically be added after notification by the user or log alerts
and review. Home mail account access may be blocked in corporate
settings to prevent another vector for malware to enter as well as for
intellectual property to leak out of the network. This method remains
functional with increased use of encryption and may be more effective
at preventing malware from entering the network. Some enterprises may
be more aggessive in their filtering and monitoring policy, causing
undesirable outcomes. Web filtering solutions monitor and potentially
restrict access based on the destination URL when available, server
name, IP address, or the DNS name. A complete URL may be used in cases
where access restrictions vary for content on a particular site or for
the sites hosted on a particular server. In some cases, the enterprise
may use a proxy to access this additional information based on their
policy. This type of restriction is intended to be transparent to
users in a corporate setting as the typical corporate user does not
access sites which are not well-known to these tools. However, the
mechanisms which these web filters use to do monitoring and
enforcement have the potential to cause access issues or other
user-visible failures.
>
>
>
>> > Re: 0-rating.
>> >    user.  This feature is impacted if encryption hides the details of
>> >    the content domain from the network.
>> >
>> > Well, maybe. Facebook's zero rating, for instance, is IP-based.
>> >
>> > https://info.internet.org/en/blog/2015/09/24/enhancing-security-and-privacy-of-free-basics/
>>
>> It seems the providers or applications offering 0-rating all operate
>> differently.
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/02/verizons-mobile-video-wont-count-against-data-caps-but-netflix-will/
>>
>> I had more of an issue with the word feature here, so I believe I
>> addressed your comment and my concern with the following:
>>
>>      For some implementations, zero rating is impacted if encryption
>>      hides the details of the content domain from the network.
>
>
> Fine. Thanks.
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > S 2.2.2.
>> > The presentation here seems biased given that it does not acknowledge
>> > that one of the reasons that ISPs do traffic class discrimination is
>> > to prioritize favored rather than disfavored traffic, regardless of
>> > user preferences. I don't believe that the IETF has taken a position
>> > for net neutrality, but I'm also pretty sure we don't have consensus
>> > against it.
>>
>> How about the following text:
>> This section does not consider traffic discrimination by service
>> providers related to NetNeutrality, where traffic may be favored
>> according to the service provider preference as opposed to the user's
>> preference. These use cases are considered out-of-scope for this
>> document as controversial practices.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>>
>>
>> >    been impacted by increases in encrypted traffic.  Only methods
>> >    keeping with the goal of balancing network management and PM
>> >    mitigation in [RFC7258] should be considered in solution work
>> >    resulting from this document.
>> > I don't understand what the normative content of this was.
>>
>> There is no normative content.  Are you asking because the lowercase
>> should was used?
>
>
> Yes.

There's no terminology document referenced from this draft.

>
>
>
>>
>> >    upgrades before user experience declines.  For example, findings of
>> >    loss and jitter in VoIP traffic can be a predictor of future customer
>> >    dissatisfaction (supported by metadata from the RTP/RTCP protocol )
>> >    [RFC3550], or increases in DNS response time can generally make
>> >    interactive web browsing appear sluggish.  But to detect such
>> >    problems, the application or service stream must first be
>> >    distinguished from others.
>> >
>> > This is a little hard to read, but generally this information is not
>> > encrypted for SRTP/SRTCP.
>>
>> In looking at the text, the Secure version of RTP/RTCP isn't mentioned
>> and isn't cited as an issue.  The text (from Dave Dolson, we think)
>> seems to say that any form of security that obscures the application
>> or service info of the stream complicates analysis as VoIP, or
>> analysis as .
>>
>> If this isn't clear enough, would you like to propose text?
>
>
> The new text seems clear enough. Thanks.
>
>
>
>>
>> >    effective at providing data offload when there is a network element
>> >    close to the receiver that has access to see all the content.
>> > This section is also confusing in that it fails to distinguish between
>> > proxies
>> > of this type that the user opts into from transparent proxies that just
>> > do this
>> > service without the user's consent. Part of the purpose of encryption is
>> > to
>> > preclude that.
>>
>> This reads to me as if these are transparent proxies, so I'll add that
>> in to clarify the text further.  Thanks.
>
>
> This ended up kind of confusing, at least to me:
>
>    The primary method is
>    for the mobile application to connect to a centralized server as a
>    transparent proxy (user does not opt-in), with the data channel
>    between the client application and the server using compression to
>    minimize bandwidth utilization.  The effectiveness of such systems
>    depends on the server having access to unencrypted data flows.
>
> My understanding is that there are two major ways to do compression
> for endpoints:
>
> 1. Single-ended (where you just compress the data, often by degrading
> the user's experience, as by downscaling), but it's ultimately compatible
> with the client.
> 2. Double-ended (where you modify both the endpoint and the proxy)
> and then do some incompatible form of compression (e.g., transcoding
> or doing a non-widely supported compression mechanism).
>
> Which one of these are you referring to?
>
>
Al beleives it is #1

however, it does not "degrade the user's experience" to
decode a 4K video stream and re-encode as a lower resolution
format when the user is watching on a mobile phone at a
viewing distance of 9 picture-heights or more.

Also, the compression could be loss-less for data streams,
but that's a type 2 where both sides are equipped,
and the sentence talks about
transparent proxies with no opt-in.

Al would say:

Single-ended (where the proxy uses reduces transmission rate
by reducing the video format for mobile phone display sizes,
producing a stream that is compatible with the client).
>
>>
>> >    created from the intercepting device to the client's destination,
>> >    this is an opt-in strategy for the client.  Changes to TLSv1.3 do not
>> >    impact this more invasive method of interception, where this has the
>> > I don't understand the cite to TLS 1.3 here. None of this is presently
>> > affected
>> > by 1.3.
>>
>> This is saying that changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more
>> invasive method of interception explicitly, so I believe the text
>> already addresses your point.  If not, could you please suggest text?
>
>
> Upon another read, this seems OK.
>
>
>
>> >    endpoints as a service reduces providers' ability to offer parental
>> >    control.
>> > This section makes it seem like there are no other methods that allow
>> > for
>> > parental control, but that's not true. There are parental control
>> > mechanisms
>> > which rely on MITM proxies or application interfacing.
>>
>> The section NOW starts off with the following in the first paragraph
>> that should address your concern:
>>
>>     This section is intended to document a selection of current
>>     content blocking practices...
>>
>> I think this came from Benjamin's review - the section is not
>> exhaustive (neither is the draft as it was contribution driven).
>>
>> This text in the first paragraph should also help with your point:
>>     Content blocking may also happen at endpoints or at the edge
>>     of enterprise networks, but those are not addressed in this section.
>>
>> At the edge is a proxy/gateway MiTM solution.
>>
>> The next paragraph talks about proxies in the core or edge of a
>> network, these are also MiTM devices, so I think that's well covered.
>>
>> The following sentence in this section calls this out as MiTM behavior
>> explicitly:
>>
>>     Changes to TLSv1.3 do not impact this more invasive method of
>>      interception, that has the potential to expose every HTTPS
>>      session to an active man in the middle (MitM).
>>
>> I ammended the following sentence in the last paragraph in case that helps
>> you:
>>
>> OLD:
>> This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint.
>>
>> NEW:
>> This type of granular filtering could occur at the endpoint or as a
>> proxy service.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>>
>> >    HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this prevents mobile carriers
>> >    from intercepting the traffic and performing an HTTP redirect.  As a
>> >    result, some mobile carriers block customer's encrypted requests,
>> > Yes, stopping traffic redirection is actually one of the major design
>> > purposes
>> > of HTTPS.
>>
>> Sure, there's not an issue other than the practice needs to change and
>> they need to figure out better ways to notify customers.  It's raised
>> here in case better ideas can be developed and some operator may look
>> at the reference (RFC6108).  Adam and Al were chatting on this as a
>> result of his review, so hopefully they make a little progress.
>>
>> I added the word appropriately as I think that will address your
>> concern.  The operators just want efficient ways to notify their
>> customers, it doesn't have to be done this way, but they raised the
>> issue because they don't know what to do and I believe, want help.
>>
>> NEW:
>> When the HTTP headers and content are encrypted, this appropriately
>> prevents mobile carriers from intercepting the traffic and performing
>> an HTTP redirect.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >    to the customer and additional overhead to the mobile network service
>> >    provider.
>> > This section is basically a commercial for this practice. It needs to
>> > acknowledge that it's actually much closer to IETF consensus that it's a
>> > bad
>> > practice.
>>
>> This text was already changed as follows:
>>
>>      The customer may need to call customer care to find out the
>>      reason and/or resolve the issue, possibly extending the time
>>      needed to restore their network access.
>> >
>> >    headers to accomplish the, sometimes considered controversial,
>> >    functions above.
>> > Again, this is precisely the form of attack that HTTPS is intended to
>> > prevent.
>>
>> The following paragraph was added per conversations with Christian and
>> Martin.  Hopefully, this also addreses your concern.  The paragraph
>> mentioned was amended as well.
>>
>> NEW:
>>     Guidance from the Internet Architecture Board has been provided
>>      in [RFC8165] on Design Considerations for Metadata Insertion.
>>      The guidance asserts that designs that share metadata only by
>>      explicit actions at the host are preferable to designs in which
>>      middleboxes insert metadata. Alternate notification methods that
>>      follow this and other guidance would be helpful to mobile carriers.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>> >    perform SSL/TLS decryption are impacted by the increased use of
>> >    encryption that prevents interception.
>> > I don't really understand what this text means. What is "use of
>> > encryption that
>> > prevents interception" in the context of tools which already do
>> > decryption?
>>
>> This reads clear enough to me, but would you be happier with:
>>
>> s/impacted/no longer functions/
>>
>> It's referring to encryption that prevents interception, not talking
>> about proxies which still can be used technically.  This change has
>> not been made yet, so please let us know if this helps or if you have
>> another suggestion.
>
>
> Is this mostly referring to passive datacenter encryption? If so, perhaps
> I can provide a reword.

Yes, I believe that is the case.  How about:
The use of passive tools that perform SSL/TLS decryption are impacted
by the increased use of encryption that prevents monitoring via
interception, while providing forward secrecy.

>
>
>> >    be possible when TLS or TCPcrypt is in use since the TCP header
>> >    information is exposed leaving the 5-tuple accessible.  The use TCP
>> >    session multiplexing of an IP layer encyption, e.g.  IPsec, that only
>> > I'm not sure if this is correct. What precisely do you mean by "TCP
>> > session multiplexing"? A cite would be helpful here.
>>
>> It's described in section 4.1.3.2:
>>
>>     TCP pipelining/session multiplexing used mainly by
>>     middleboxes today allows for multiple end user sessions
>>     to share the same TCP connection.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> >    traffic cannot be intercepted, encouraging alternate options such as
>> >    performing these functions at the edge.
>> > I'm not seeing the relevance of this. Who is proposing solutions in
>> > which
>> > encrypted traffic cannot be intercepted at the outgoing network edge.
>>
>> The only option here for this described usage is a proxy where the TLS
>> 1.3 session is terminated and restarted.
>
>
> Yep. That's basically true in TLS 1.2 as well.
>
>
>>
>>   If you look back to slides
>> from Stephen on PM and advancements resulting from PM being considered
>> an attack, one of the ideas to make TLS stronger was DANE
>> authentication to provide a way to know you truly have an e2e session
>> - a very good thing.  The draft on the last telechat:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-dnssec-chain-extension/
>> that should be approved soon is able to do this with some middleboxes,
>> but I'm not sure what happens with a proxy - so I asked the editors
>> for clarification.  If this just doesn't work and the session proceeds
>> without this extension, there is nothing to notify on.  If this is
>> something proxies should be aware of to allow through unhampered, it
>> would be good to include a little more text.  For instance, in
>> corporate networks certain traffic with PII, like financial
>> transactions, are not proxied and would benefit from using this
>> extension, giving their users assurance in the security of their
>> sessions.
>
>
> Thanks for the explanation. I think this gets to an important point: it's
> true that
> there are a variety of protocol mechanisms which one could put in place
> which
> would block MITM proxies. However, we could *already* do that because the
> clients are often aware in many cases of when MITM proxies are in use
> (because the certs are pinned). However, they still let those connections
> go through because the users would be very sad if they couldn't get
> to Facebook. So I would anticipate the same dynamic here.

Are you okay with current text or do you have proposed changes?


Thanks,
Kathleen

>
>
>>
>> >    owing to concealment of critical headers and payloads.  Many forms of
>> >    enterprise performance management may be similarly affected.
>> > Again, this is sort of transparent caching is an anti-pattern, so this
>> > document
>> > ought to acknowledge that,
>>
>> I added the following text at the end of this paragraph to address your
>> concern:
>> It should be noted that transparent caching is considered an anti-pattern.
>>
>> If you have alternate text to suggest, please do
>
>
>  This text looks good to me.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> >    network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
>> >    extension, they may not find one.  The SNI Encryption in TLS Through
>> >    Tunneling [I-D.ietf-tls-sni-encryption] draft has been adopted by the
>> > This doesn't really follow. I mean they "may not" but overwhelmingly
>> > they will
>>
>> I'm not sure when the text was changed, but it already has been changed
>> from.
>>
>> OLD:
>>
>>    This information is only visible if the client is populating the
>>    Server Name Indication extension.  This need not be done, but may be
>>    done as per TLS standard and as stated above this has been
>>    implemented by all major browsers.  Therefore, even if existing
>>    network filters look out for seeing a Server Name Indication
>>    extension, they may not find one.
>>
>> NEW:
>> This information is only available if the client populates the Server
>> Name Indication extension. Doing so is an optional part of the TLS
>> standard and as stated above this has been implemented by all major
>> browsers. Due to its optional nature, though, existing network filters
>> that examine a TLS ClientHello for a SNI extension cannot expect to
>> always find one.
>
>
> I continue to believe that this doesn't accurately represent the situation.
> Yes, it's technically true that you can't 100% count on it, but you almost
> always get it, so much so that an enterprise could just block anyone
> who doesn't provide SNI. o
>
> -Ekr
>
>>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen