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Subject: [OPSEC] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC6192 (4705)
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The following errata report has been submitted for RFC6192,
"Protecting the Router Control Plane".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=6192&eid=4705

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Trond Endrestøl <trond.endrestol@ximalas.info>

Section: A.1

Original Text
-------------
   ipv6 access-list EBGPv6
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::25 eq bgp any
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::25 any eq bgp
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::27 eq bgp any
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::27 any eq bgp
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::29 eq bgp any
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::29 any eq bgp
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::31 eq bgp any
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::31 any eq bgp
   ip access-list extended DNS
    permit udp 198.51.100.0 0.0.0.252 eq domain any
   ipv6 access-list DNSv6
    permit udp 2001:DB8:100:1::/64 eq domain any
    permit tcp 2001:DB8:100:1::/64 eq domain any
   ip access-list extended NTP

Corrected Text
--------------
   ipv6 access-list EBGPv6
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::25 eq bgp any
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::25 any eq bgp
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::27 eq bgp any
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::27 any eq bgp
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::29 eq bgp any
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::29 any eq bgp
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::31 eq bgp any
    permit tcp host 2001:DB8:100::31 any eq bgp
   ip access-list extended DNS
    permit udp 198.51.100.0 0.0.0.252 eq domain any
    permit tcp 198.51.100.0 0.0.0.252 eq domain any
   ipv6 access-list DNSv6
    permit udp 2001:DB8:100:1::/64 eq domain any
    permit tcp 2001:DB8:100:1::/64 eq domain any
   ip access-list extended NTP

Notes
-----
DNS is transported sometimes over UDP and sometimes over TCP. The Cisco example fails to demonstrate this behaviour in the case of IPv4. The Cisco example clearly shows this behaviour in the case of IPv6.

The Juniper example in Section A.2 should be amended in the same fashion, however I'm unfamiliar with the proper JunOS syntax.

Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 

--------------------------------------
RFC6192 (draft-ietf-opsec-protect-control-plane-06)
--------------------------------------
Title               : Protecting the Router Control Plane
Publication Date    : March 2011
Author(s)           : D. Dugal, C. Pignataro, R. Dunn
Category            : INFORMATIONAL
Source              : Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


From nobody Wed Jun 15 03:42:33 2016
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An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Eric Vyncke, a Chair of the opsec working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Eric Vyncke

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  1.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 70
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: 6man v6ops sidr homenet opsawg




Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


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From nobody Wed Jun 15 04:34:04 2016
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From: "Sleigh, Robert" <robert.sleigh@ee.co.uk>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "opsec@ietf.org" <opsec@ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Hi Eric et al.

Great doc, thanks. Just a couple of typos I spotted.

2.1.2

"This means that using ULA does not prevent route and packet filters to b=
e implemented and monitored."

Should this read:=20

"This means that using ULA does not prevent route and packet filters havi=
ng to be implemented and monitored."

2.7.2.8

"the audit log are easier to manager"

Should this read:

"the audit logs are easier to manage"

Hope this helps

Regards

Bob
07958 318592

From: OPSEC [mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Vyncke (evy=
ncke)
Sent: 15 June 2016 11:50
To: opsec@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.org
Cc: Howard, Lee; fgont@si6networks.com; draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; lin=
kedin@xn--debrn-nva.de
Subject: [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08

The authors (and OPSEC WG chairs) would really appreciate if a review of=A0=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08=A0is done in the comin=
g days/weeks (in time to submit a -09 in case it needs to be amended).

This I-D is about the operation security considerations when operating an=
=20IPv6 network (both as Service Provider and enterprise/subscriber).

Thanks a lot in advance for your review and be sure to include opsec@ietf=
.org in your reply.

- the authors (Merike, KK and Eric)
- the chairmen (Gunter and Eric)

PS: Markus, Fred, Fernando and Lee, as you kindly volunteered to review i=
t during IETF-95, I also put your names ;-)



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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 15:04:54 +0200
From: Markus deBruen <linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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------=_Part_31302_6541596.1465995894976
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Hi Eric, 

the draft is very well written and contains useful guidance/recommendations. Sections 2.4 and 2.5 do not contain much IPv6-specific information and sections 2.7.2.* do not give much guidance. However, these three sections together amount to ~11 pages (1/3 of the document). If you could shorten these sections, the document would become more manageable. 
Some minor comments and nits: 
2.1.2 
"... The latter would be problematic." 
I suspect by "latter" you mean NPTv6. Better make that explicit. 

"A typical argument is that there are too many mistakes made with filters and 
ULAs make things easier to hide machines." 
Why "to hide machienes"? I would suggest "to set filters". 

2.1.4 
"... privacy extension addresses should be used" 
Punctuation mark is missing. 

2.2 
still TBD 

2.3.2 
"... for protecting hosts connected against..." 
"Connected hosts" maybe!? 

2.3.4 
"RFC6980 [RFC6980] aims to update RFC4861 [RFC4861]" 
"[RFC6980] updates [RFC4861]" 

2.7.2 
"embeb" -&gt; embed 

2.7.2.4 
"... operational problems" 
Punctuation mark is missing. 

2.7.2.8 
The second "MAP-E" should be "MAP-T". 

2.8 
"device to authenticated" -&gt; "device authenticated" 

3.1 
"bogon and reserved space" 
Some links might be helpful (e.g. to IANA). 

5 
"[RFC7084] (which obsoletes [RFC6204]" 
Missing ")" 

"[RFC7084] states that a clear choice must be given to the user to select one 
of those two policies." 
Does it? I did not find the corresponding passage. 

Throughout the document there are some "IPV6", "DOS" and " ", which should be 
replaced with "IPv6", "DoS" and " ". 

I hope these comments are helpful. 

Cheers, 
Markus 



---- Ein Mi, 15 Jun 2016 12:50:29 +0200 Eric Vyncke (evyncke)&lt;evyncke@cisco.com&gt; hat geschrieben ---- 

  The authors (and OPSEC WG chairs) would really appreciate if a review of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08 is done in the coming days/weeks (in time to submit a -09 in case it needs to be amended).
 
 
 This I-D is about the operation security considerations when operating an IPv6 network (both as Service Provider and enterprise/subscriber).
 
 
 Thanks a lot in advance for your review and be sure to include opsec@ietf.org in your reply.
 
 
 - the authors (Merike, KK and Eric)
 - the chairmen (Gunter and Eric)
 
 
 PS: Markus, Fred, Fernando and Lee, as you kindly volunteered to review it during IETF-95, I also put your names ;-)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 







------=_Part_31302_6541596.1465995894976
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head>=
<meta content=3D"text/html;charset=3DUTF-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"></h=
ead><body ><div style=3D'font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica=
,sans-serif;'><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Hi Eric,&nbsp=
;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-fam=
ily: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-col=
or: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvet=
ica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">th=
e draft is very well written and contains useful guidance/</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; b=
ackground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">recommendations.&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;=
 background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sections 2.4 and 2.5 do not contain=
 much IPv6-specific&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial,=
 Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 25=
5);">information and sections 2.7.2.* do not give much guidance. However, t=
hese&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">three sect=
ions together amount to ~11 pages (1/3 of the document). If you&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">could shorten these sectio=
ns, the document would become more manageable.&nbsp;</span><div><br style=
=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, a=
rial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);">Some minor comments and nits:&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-famil=
y: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color=
: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetic=
a, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">2.1.=
2&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"=
font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; backgr=
ound-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"... The latter would be problematic."&nbs=
p;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-=
family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-=
color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I suspect by "latter" you mean NPTv6. Better ma=
ke that explicit.&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Hel=
vetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"=
><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: =
Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: r=
gb(255, 255, 255);">"A typical argument is that there are too many mistakes=
 made with filters and&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial=
, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 2=
55);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">ULAs make things easi=
er to hide machines."&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial,=
 Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 25=
5);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; fon=
t-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Why "to hide machienes=
"? I would suggest "to set filters".&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: r=
gb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sa=
ns-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">2.1.4&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-=
family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-=
color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Hel=
vetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"=
>"... privacy extension addresses should be used"&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"=
font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; backgr=
ound-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial=
, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 2=
55);">Punctuation mark is missing.&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Ve=
rdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb=
(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans=
-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=
=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">2.2&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-colo=
r: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helveti=
ca, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">sti=
ll TBD&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=
=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, a=
rial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);">2.3.2&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helve=
tica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><=
span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"... for protecting hosts co=
nnected against..."&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, H=
elvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
;"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-=
size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"Connected hosts" maybe!=
?&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; backgrou=
nd-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, =
Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255=
);">2.3.4&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px=
; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"RFC6980 [RFC6980] aims to update =
RFC4861 [RFC4861]"&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, He=
lvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);=
"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"[RFC6980] updates [RFC48=
61]"&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-=
serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D=
"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; backg=
round-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, aria=
l, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">2.7.2&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetic=
a, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
2px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"embeb" -&gt; embed&nbsp;</span=
><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-family: Ve=
rdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb=
(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sa=
ns-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">2.7.2.4&n=
bsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;=
 font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; backgroun=
d-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"... operational problems"&nbsp;</span><br st=
yle=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;=
 background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana=
, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255,=
 255, 255);">Punctuation mark is missing.&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-fam=
ily: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-col=
or: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetic=
a, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
2px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">2.7.2.8&nbsp;</span><br style=
=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, a=
rial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);">The second "MAP-E" should be "MAP-T".&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; backgrou=
nd-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, He=
lvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);=
"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">2.8&nbsp;</span><br style=
=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, a=
rial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);">"device to authenticated" -&gt; "device authenticated"&nbsp;</spa=
n><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-siz=
e: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-family: V=
erdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rg=
b(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, s=
ans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">3.1&nbsp=
;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-c=
olor: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"bogon and reserved space"&nbsp;</span><br style=
=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, a=
rial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);">Some links might be helpful (e.g. to IANA).&nbsp;</span><br style=
=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, ari=
al, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,=
 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">5&nbsp;</span><br s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px=
; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdan=
a, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255=
, 255, 255);">"[RFC7084] (which obsoletes [RFC6204]"&nbsp;</span><br style=
=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, a=
rial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);">Missing ")"&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial,=
 Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 25=
5);"><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-=
size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-colo=
r: rgb(255, 255, 255);">"[RFC7084] states that a clear choice must be given=
 to the user to select one&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, a=
rial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 25=
5, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=
; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">of those two poli=
cies."&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; b=
ackground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Does it? I did not find the correspon=
ding passage.&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helveti=
ca, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br=
 style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12=
px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verd=
ana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(2=
55, 255, 255);">Throughout the document there are some "IPV6", "DOS" and " =
", which should be&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, He=
lvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);=
"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">replaced with "IPv6", "Do=
S" and " ".&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica=
, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px=
; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdan=
a, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255=
, 255, 255);">I hope these comments are helpful.&nbsp;</span><br style=3D"f=
ont-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; backgro=
und-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, H=
elvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
;"><span style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-=
size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Cheers,&nbsp;</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12p=
x; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style=3D"font-family: Verda=
na, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(25=
5, 255, 255);">Markus&nbsp;</span><div><font face=3D"Verdana, arial, Helvet=
ica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;"><br></span></font></div><=
div><font face=3D"Verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 12px;"><br></span></font><div class=3D"zmail_extra"><div id=3D"1"><=
br>---- Ein Mi, 15 Jun 2016 12:50:29 +0200 <b>Eric Vyncke (evyncke)&lt;evyn=
cke@cisco.com&gt;</b> hat geschrieben ---- <br></div><blockquote style=3D"b=
order-left: 1px solid #0000FF; padding-left: 6px; margin:0 0 0 5px"><meta> =
 <div style=3D"color: rgb(0,0,0);font-size: 14.0px;font-family: Calibri , s=
ans-serif;"> <div>The authors (and OPSEC WG chairs) would really appreciate=
 if a review of&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opse=
c-v6-08" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-=
08</a>&nbsp;is done in the coming days/weeks (in time to submit a -09 in ca=
se  it needs to be amended).</div> <div><br> </div> <div>This I-D is about =
the operation security considerations when operating an IPv6 network (both =
as Service Provider and enterprise/subscriber).</div> <div><br> </div> <div=
>Thanks a lot in advance for your review and be sure to include <a href=3D"=
mailto:opsec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" mailid=3D"opsec%40ietf.org" subj=
=3D"">opsec@ietf.org</a> in your reply.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>- the a=
uthors (Merike, KK and Eric)</div> <div>- the chairmen (Gunter and Eric)</d=
iv> <div><br> </div> <div>PS: Markus, Fred, Fernando and Lee, as you kindly=
 volunteered to review it during IETF-95, I also put your names ;-)</div> <=
div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div>   </div></blockquote><br>=
</div><br></div></div></div></body></html>
------=_Part_31302_6541596.1465995894976--


From nobody Wed Jun 15 12:46:12 2016
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References: <D386FF93.75916%evyncke@cisco.com>
From: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 12:45:31 -0700
Message-ID: <CAAedzxqBr=ApvGTUrjNUnRmpcamkt4OH1CchcDEWgDcXRgo8Fw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
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Cc: "fgont@si6networks.com" <fgont@si6networks.com>, "opsec@ietf.org" <opsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de" <linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be able
to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.

Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  We
should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features
does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and
traceability" [Section 2.1.6].


From nobody Wed Jun 15 13:05:18 2016
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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
Thread-Index: AQHRx0E6+A92vAUQaEOO/MuVxVmKUg==
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:05:13 +0000
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Cc: "Howard, Lee" <lee.howard@twcable.com>, "fgont@si6networks.com" <fgont@si6networks.com>, "opsec@ietf.org" <opsec@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org>, "linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de" <linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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One thing I wondered about as reading this - many and perhaps most =
sections gave a fairly informative comment, and then made one or two =
recommendations. I wonder (this is a question) whether it would be =
worthwhile capitalizing "RECOMMEND", both in the sense of defining the =
term (RFC 2119) and highlighting it in the text. I also wonder if it =
would make sense to pull together a list of recommendations made in a =
table somewhere, perhaps in an appendix. I could imagine someone wanting =
a list of them without wading through the text.

> 1.  Introduction
>=20
>    Running an IPv6 network is new for most operators not only because
>    they are not yet used to large scale IPv6 networks but also because
>    there are subtle differences between IPv4 and IPv6 especially with
>    respect to security.  For example, all layer-2 interactions are now
>    done by Neighbor Discovery Protocol [RFC4861] rather than by =
Address

s/by/using/, twice. As worded, it sounds like NDP and ARP doing this by =
themselves, as *actors*; no, the *system* does them using NDP and ARP as =
its *language*.

>    Resolution Protocol [RFC0826].  Also, there are subtle differences
>    between NAT44 and NPTv6 [RFC6296] which are explicitly pointed out =
in
>    the latter's security considerations section.

For NAT44, I might also point to RFC 2993 and maybe 4864.

>    IPv6 networks are deployed using a variety of techniques, each of
>    which have their own specific security concerns.


> 2.  Generic Security Considerations
>=20
> 2.1.  Addressing Architecture
>=20
>    IPv6 address allocations and overall architecture are an important
>    part of securing IPv6.  Typically what you initially design for =
will
>    be what you use for a very long time.

This sentence is in the second person ("you"), and most of the document =
is third person ("it"). Reword as "Initial designs, even if intended to =
be temporary, tend to last much longer than expected"?

> Although initially IPv6 was
>    thought to make renumbering easy, in practice, it would be =
extremely
>    difficult to renumber.

I would temper the statement. As we said in RFC 4192, the problems with =
renumbering tends to be the places where a number is written into a =
static configuration rather than managed using a database or whatever, =
and the places where people cut corners ("its address will never change, =
so I don't need to worry about its name and DNS"). I would find myself =
saying that good OSS trumps static configurations, and in IPv6, systems =
change at least their IIDs from time to time (RFC 7721). It's not that =
IPv6 (or IPv4) is hard to renumber, it's that the required operational =
support is often not there or not workable due to poor practice.

>    Once an address allocation has been assigned, there should be some
>    thought given to an overall address allocation plan.  With the
>    abundance of address space available, an address allocation may be
>    structured around services along with geographic locations, which

"topology"? Topology is often structured geographically, yes, but if A =
provides services to B and C and is a logical gateway to them, A, B, and =
C can be grouped for management purposes even if they are not in the =
same geographic location.

>    then can be a basis for more structured security policies to permit
>    or deny services between geographic regions.
>=20
>    A common question is whether companies should use PI vs PA space
>    [RFC7381] but from a security perspective there is little =
difference.

comma after "[RFC7381]".

>    However, one aspect to keep in mind is who has ownership of the
>    address space and who is responsible if/when Law Enforcement may =
need
>    to enforce restrictions on routability of the space due to =
malicious
>    criminal activity.

Pregnant statement. I find myself wondering about the implications of =
"ownership" and "law enforcement restrictions on routability". In =
"ownership", are you pointing to issues when you change providers and =
therefore need to change PA addresses? If not, something else? In "LEA =
issues", are you talking about law enforcement blocking the address =
space, turning BGP announcements off, etc?



> 2.1.1.  Statically Configured Addresses
>=20
>    When considering how to assign statically configured addresses it =
is
>    necessary to take into consideration the effectiveness of perimeter
>    security in a given environment.  There is a trade-off between ease
>    of operational deployment where some portions of the IPv6 address
>    could be easily recognizable for operational debugging and
>    troubleshooting versus the risk of scanning; [SCANNING] shows that
>    there are scientifically based mechanisms that make scanning for =
IPv6
>    reachable nodes more realizable than expected.  The use of common
>    multicast groups which are defined for important networked devices
>    and the use of commonly repeated addresses could make it easy to
>    figure out which devices are name servers, routers or other =
critical
>    devices.
>=20
>    While in some environments the perimeter security is so poor that
>    obfuscating addresses is considered a benefit; it is a better
>    practice to ensure that perimeter rules are actively checked and
>    enforced and that statically configured addresses follow some =
logical
>    allocation scheme for ease of operation.

I find myself on both sides of the prophylactic security discussion. I =
compare and network and its defenses to the human immune system, and =
perimeter security to the skin. I favor having a working perimeter =
security system much like I favor a functional skin, and for the same =
immunologic reasons. That said, the body provides the defense, reducing =
the rate at which it needs to bring other systems into play, and then =
assumes it has been breached; a person whose only immunologic defense is =
their skin is an AIDS patient, and doesn't have a good prognosis. My =
fundamental problem with most network security systems is that they =
over-emphasize perimeter security.

I say that because this paragraph seems to over-emphasize perimeter =
security - "in some environments the perimeter security is so poor...". =
I think I would say that "security is so poor". I would be tempted to go =
beyond to talk about the ways a remote network can be mapped, such as by =
observing email envelopes and addresses found in WWW logs etc, and the =
value of temporary random addresses (as opposed to permanent addresses, =
whether DHCP -assigned or MAC/SLAAC).

But I agree with the recommendation.

> 2.1.2.  Use of ULAs
>=20
>    ULAs are intended for scenarios where IP addresses will not have
>    global scope.  The implicit expectation from the RFC is that all =
ULAs
>    will be randomly created as /48s.  Any use of ULAs that are not
>    created as a /48 violates RFC4193 [RFC4193].

Mention also that they are expected to not be announced, and if =
announced not accepted, in BGP?

>    ULAs could be useful for infrastructure hiding as described in
>    RFC4864 [RFC4864];

I believe that at least one cable operator uses them for cable modem =
addresses, which need no GUA and want to be hidden. Personally, I think =
that's a better use of a ULA - for something does doesn't actually need =
a global address. The paragraph here seems to assume that the only valid =
use of a ULA is as a counterpart to RFC 1918, and with NAT.

I'd really wish that we could talk about infrastructure (count the =
addresses in the envelope of this email; they are mostly infrastructure =
addresses) and internal-only services (wwwin-SERVICE.cisco.com names =
being a classic Cisco example, to my mind) when we start a paragraph =
with a comment on "infrastructure hiding", rather than proceeding =
directly to NAT.

> 2.1.4.  Temporary Addresses - Privacy Extensions for SLAAC
> ...
>    As privacy extension addresses could also be used to obfuscate some
>    malevolent activities (whether on purpose or not), it is advised in
>    scenarios where user attribution is important to disable SLAAC and
>    rely only on DHCPv6.  However, in scenarios where anonymity is a
>    strong desire since protecting user privacy is more important than
>    user attribution, privacy extension addresses should be used

No mention of IEEE 802.1X?

>    Using privacy extension addresses prevents the operator from =
building
>    a priori host specific access control lists (ACLs).  It must be =
noted
>    that recent versions of Windows do not use the MAC address anymore =
to
>    build the stable address but use a mechanism similar to the one
>    described in [RFC7217], this also means that such an ACL cannot be
>    configured based solely on the MAC address of the nodes, =
diminishing
>    the value of such ACL.  On the other hand, different VLANs are =
often
>    used to segregate users, then ACL can rely on a /64 prefix per VLAN
>    rather than a per host ACL entry.

"then ACL"? Either I don't understand the sentence, or you meant "the".


> 2.1.6.  DHCP/DNS Considerations
>=20
>    Many environments use DHCPv6 to allocate addresses to ensure
>    audibility and traceability (but see Section 2.6.1.5).  A main

audit-ability

>    security concern is the ability to detect and mitigate against =
rogue
>    DHCP servers (Section 2.3.2).

I think you want to say "counteract" rather than "mitigate against".

> 2.3.5.  3GPP Link-Layer Security
>=20
>    The 3GPP link is a point-to-point like link that has no link-layer
>    address.  This implies there can only be an end host (the mobile
>    hand-set) and the first-hop router (i.e., a GPRS Gatewat Support =
Node

Gateway

> 2.4.  Control Plane Security
>=20
>    RFC6192 [RFC6192] defines the router control plane and this
>    definition is repeated here for the reader's convenience.

Run-on sentence. Replace "and" with a period and capitalize the next =
word.

>    Modern router architecture design maintains a strict separation of
>    forwarding and router control plane hardware and software.  The
>    router control plane supports routing and management functions.  It
>    is generally described as the router architecture hardware and
>    software components for handling packets destined to the device
>    itself as well as building and sending packets originated locally =
on
>    the device.

I'm having trouble parsing the above sentence...

> The forwarding plane is typically described as the
>    router architecture hardware and software components responsible =
for
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Chittimaneni, et al.   Expires September 22, 2016              [Page =
11]
> Internet-Draft                 OPsec IPV6                     March =
2016
>=20
>=20
>    receiving a packet on an incoming interface, performing a lookup to
>    identify the packet's IP next hop and determine the best outgoing
>    interface towards the destination, and forwarding the packet out
>    through the appropriate outgoing interface.

I'm having trouble parsing the above as well. I'd suggest breaking it =
into 2-3 sentences.

> 2.4.3.  Packet Exceptions
>=20
>    This class covers multiple cases where a data plane packet is =
punted
>    to the route processor because it requires specific processing:
> ...
>    o  processing of the hop-by-hop extension header;

May I suggest the authors comment on draft-ietf-6man-hbh-header-handling =
as it progresses? Let's not let that and this conflict.

> 2.6.1.1.  Logs of Applications
> ...
>    #!/usr/bin/perl ?w

Should that be "-w"?

>    use strict ;
>    use warnings ;
>    use Socket ;
>    use Socket6 ;
>=20
>    my (@words, $word, $binary_address) ;
>=20
>    ## go through the file one line at a time
>    while (my $line =3D <STDIN>) {
>      chomp $line;
>      foreach my $word (split /[ \n]/, $line) {

replace "[ \n]" with "\s+". \s includes any white space character, =
including a space, a tab, \n, \r, and a couple of others. The "+" =
specifies strings of one or more in length.

>        $binary_address =3D inet_pton AF_INET6, $word ;
>        if ($binary_address) {
>          print inet_ntop AF_INET6, $binary_address ;
>        } else {
>          print $word ;
>        }
>        print " " ;
>      }
>      print "\n" ;
>    }


> 2.7.1.  Dual Stack
>=20
>    Dual stack has established itself as the preferred deployment =
choice
>    for most network operators without a MPLS core where 6PE RFC4798

without *an* MPLS core...

> 2.7.3.2.  NAT64/DNS64
>=20
>    Stateful NAT64 translation [RFC6146] allows IPv6-only clients to
>    contact IPv4 servers using unicast UDP, TCP, or ICMP.  It can be =
used
>    in conjunction with DNS64 [RFC6147], a mechanism which synthesizes
>    AAAA records from existing A records.
>=20
>    The Security Consideration sections of [RFC6146] and [RFC6147] list
>    the comprehensive issues.  A specific issue with the use of NAT64 =
is
>    that it will interfere with most IPsec deployments unless UDP
>    encapsulation is used.  DNS64 has an incidence on DNSSEC see =
section
>    3.1 of [RFC7050].

You might want to mention 6145, draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis, and SIIT-DC.

> 3.1.  External Security Considerations:

You mention having a firewall that only permits inbound traffic that =
corresponds to an active session. Would RFC 6092 be worth mentioning in =
that context?

> 5.  Residential Users Security Considerations

Would RFC 6092 be worth mentioning in this context?


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From nobody Wed Jun 15 16:44:48 2016
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To: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
References: <D386FF93.75916%evyncke@cisco.com> <CAAedzxqBr=ApvGTUrjNUnRmpcamkt4OH1CchcDEWgDcXRgo8Fw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:44:45 +1200
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:
> Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be able
> to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.

I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don't think this is
the document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What we should
do here is underline that NAT != security.

While I'm here, some other points:

"2.2.  Extension Headers

   TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando's I-D & RFC."

That's not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a lot of
relevance to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to refer
to most of the material (Fernando's or not) unless it's directly relevant
to opsec. I think the reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering,
but only if that document is going anywhere.

"2.3.3.  ND/RA Rate Limiting
...
   The following drafts are actively discussing methods to
   rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi networks in order to
   address this issue:

   o  [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]

   o  [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficient-nd]"

Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 and 2015
respectively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.

"4.2.  Transition Mechanism

   SP will typically use transition mechanisms such as 6rd, 6PE, MAP,
   DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transition Section 2.7.2
   section."

Shouldn't you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?

Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations section.

Rgds
    Brian

> 
> Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  We
> should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
> protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features
> does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and
> traceability" [Section 2.1.6].
> 
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 


From nobody Thu Jun 16 02:15:24 2016
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From: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Erik Kline <ek@google.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:43:09 +1000
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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On 16 June 2016 at 19:15, Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@resmed.com> wrote:
> Well, actually, infrastructure hiding IS part of security.  It is not the=
 full picture, but it is incorrect to say that it is not.
>
> I personally don't sympathize on NAT-haters.  NAT has its reasons, especi=
ally for carrier-grade NAT

CGN isn't necessary in IPv6, it's to solve the problem of ISPs running
out of IPv4 addresses.

 and especially in the telco scenario, and yes, it does provide some
level of security - again, not the complete picture, but it does.
>

NAT is not necessary in IPv6. The equivalent of NAT's perceived
security can be provided via alternative methods, as described in
RFC4864.

A further technique to hide topology that isn't mentioned in RFC4864
is to use something like ISATAP or similar, to create a single /64
subnet over the top of multiple IPv4 subnets. Externally, all hosts
will appear to belong to a single IPv6 subnet, hiding the internal
topology.

If you truly want to hide the identities of hosts, NAT doesn't do
enough - it is only translating addresses, where as there are many
other host identifiers that the host itself supplies or will receive
and supply that can identify hosts e.g. HTTP cookies. "A Technique for
Counting NATted Hosts"
(https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf) showed how a field
within the IPv4 header that leaked across a NAT was able to be used to
identify hosts.

If you truly want to hide a host from the Internet, yet still allow it
to access things on the Internet, under IPv6 your network would use
ULA addressing, and have a per-application protocol proxy server that
makes all requests look like they've entirely originated from the
application proxy server itself. To the Internet server, the
application proxy server would appear to be the application end host
making the requests, preventing any internal host identifiers or other
attributes from leaking.


Regards,
Mark.


>
> Regards,
>
> Marco Ermini
>
> CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD
> Senior IT Security Analyst
> D +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
>
> ResMed Germany Inc
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSEC [mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpente=
r
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:45 AM
> To: Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
> Cc: fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de; dra=
ft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-0=
8
>
> On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:
>> Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be able
>> to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.
>
> I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don't think this is the=
 document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What we should do her=
e is underline that NAT !=3D security.
>
> While I'm here, some other points:
>
> "2.2.  Extension Headers
>
>    TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando's I-D & RFC."
>
> That's not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a lot of relevance =
to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to refer to most of the mat=
erial (Fernando's or not) unless it's directly relevant to opsec. I think t=
he reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering,
> but only if that document is going anywhere.
>
> "2.3.3.  ND/RA Rate Limiting
> ...
>    The following drafts are actively discussing methods to
>    rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi networks in order to
>    address this issue:
>
>    o  [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]
>
>    o  [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficient-nd]"
>
> Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 and 2015 respec=
tively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.
>
> "4.2.  Transition Mechanism
>
>    SP will typically use transition mechanisms such as 6rd, 6PE, MAP,
>    DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transition Section 2.7.2
>    section."
>
> Shouldn't you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?
>
> Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations section.
>
> Rgds
>     Brian
>
>>
>> Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  We
>> should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
>> protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features
>> does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and
>> traceability" [Section 2.1.6].
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OPSEC mailing list
> OPSEC@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:17:13 +1000
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
To: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@resmed.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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On 16 Jun 2016 20:03, "Marco Ermini" <Marco.Ermini@resmed.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> NAT can be still necessary in IPv6 in dual-stack scenario, for instance,
where every host is assigned both a IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and the CGN
equipment can't handle them differently.

Can you provide an example of this sort of CGN device.

IPv4 and IPv6 have to be handled differently because they're different
protocols, requiring different code. A single device might be performing
NAT on IPv4 traffic it receives and doing standard stateless forwarding of
IPv6 traffic. Is that the scenario you're describing?

I'd struggle to believe that there are CGN devices where performing NAT on
IPv6 traffic is mandatory if IPv4 NAT is being performed.

Unfortunately RFC 4864 does not mention such case, AFAIK.
>
> In any case, I am happy to concede it could be an extreme case and that
it is not necessary anymore in IPv6 for the great majority of use cases.
>
> I was not really making a specific case for IPv6 - my opposition was to
the concept that NAT is not security, and to the fact that it should be
written as such in the RFC.

So this draft is purely about IPv6. There will be a lot of IPv4 security
measures that can be applied to IPv6, however there will also be others
that shouldn't, and opportunities where IPv6 can provide better security
that IPv4 (e.g. sparse host addressing in a /64 makes address probing to
discover hosts impossible within a useful and practical timeframe.).

 > NAT *does* provide a form of security

What specific security does it provide that is due to the address
translation function?

If you're thinking about the protection provided due to the state being
created during the address translation process, that state can be created
without performing address translation, which is what a stateful firewall
does and did in IPv4 before NAT became widely deployed.

> - the fact that it is not desirable or it is unnecessary to use is
another topic, in which I believe we all agree (at least for 99% of use
cases ;-))
>

I don't see a need to deploy NAT with IPv6 as what has been achieved with
IPv4 NAT can be achieved in IPv6 without the drawbacks of NAT.

Regards,
Mark.

>
> Regards,
> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
> Marco Ermini
>
> CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD
> Senior IT Security Analyst
> D +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
>
> ResMed Germany Inc
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:43 AM
> To: Marco Ermini
> Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke);
fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org;
linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de; v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-0=
8
>
> On 16 June 2016 at 19:15, Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@resmed.com> wrote:
> > Well, actually, infrastructure hiding IS part of security.  It is not
the full picture, but it is incorrect to say that it is not.
> >
> > I personally don't sympathize on NAT-haters.  NAT has its reasons,
> > especially for carrier-grade NAT
>
> CGN isn't necessary in IPv6, it's to solve the problem of ISPs running
out of IPv4 addresses.
>
>  and especially in the telco scenario, and yes, it does provide some
level of security - again, not the complete picture, but it does.
> >
>
> NAT is not necessary in IPv6. The equivalent of NAT's perceived security
can be provided via alternative methods, as described in RFC4864.
>
> A further technique to hide topology that isn't mentioned in RFC4864 is
to use something like ISATAP or similar, to create a single /64 subnet over
the top of multiple IPv4 subnets. Externally, all hosts will appear to
belong to a single IPv6 subnet, hiding the internal topology.
>
> If you truly want to hide the identities of hosts, NAT doesn't do enough
- it is only translating addresses, where as there are many other host
identifiers that the host itself supplies or will receive and supply that
can identify hosts e.g. HTTP cookies. "A Technique for Counting NATted
Hosts"
> (https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf) showed how a field
within the IPv4 header that leaked across a NAT was able to be used to
identify hosts.
>
> If you truly want to hide a host from the Internet, yet still allow it to
access things on the Internet, under IPv6 your network would use ULA
addressing, and have a per-application protocol proxy server that makes all
requests look like they've entirely originated from the application proxy
server itself. To the Internet server, the application proxy server would
appear to be the application end host making the requests, preventing any
internal host identifiers or other attributes from leaking.
>
>
> Regards,
> Mark.
>
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Marco Ermini
> >
> > CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD Senior IT Security Analyst D
> > +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
> >
> > ResMed Germany Inc
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: OPSEC [mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> > Carpenter
> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:45 AM
> > To: Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
> > Cc: fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de;
> > draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of
> > draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
> >
> > On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:
> >> Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be
> >> able to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.
> >
> > I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don't think this is
the document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What we should do
here is underline that NAT !=3D security.
> >
> > While I'm here, some other points:
> >
> > "2.2.  Extension Headers
> >
> >    TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando's I-D & RFC."
> >
> > That's not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a lot of
> > relevance to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to refer to
> > most of the material (Fernando's or not) unless it's directly relevant
> > to opsec. I think the reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering,
> > but only if that document is going anywhere.
> >
> > "2.3.3.  ND/RA Rate Limiting
> > ...
> >    The following drafts are actively discussing methods to
> >    rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi networks in order to
> >    address this issue:
> >
> >    o  [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]
> >
> >    o  [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficient-nd]"
> >
> > Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 and 2015
respectively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.
> >
> > "4.2.  Transition Mechanism
> >
> >    SP will typically use transition mechanisms such as 6rd, 6PE, MAP,
> >    DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transition Section 2.7.2
> >    section."
> >
> > Shouldn't you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?
> >
> > Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations section.
> >
> > Rgds
> >     Brian
> >
> >>
> >> Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  We
> >> should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
> >> protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features
> >> does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and
> >> traceability" [Section 2.1.6].
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> v6ops mailing list
> >> v6ops@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OPSEC mailing list
> > OPSEC@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--94eb2c0cbf7ad9947e0535643725
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On 16 Jun 2016 20:03, &quot;Marco Ermini&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Marco.=
Ermini@resmed.com">Marco.Ermini@resmed.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; NAT can be still necessary in IPv6 in dual-stack scenario, for instanc=
e, where every host is assigned both a IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and the CGN =
equipment can&#39;t handle them differently.=C2=A0</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Can you provide an example of this sort of CGN device.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">IPv4 and IPv6 have to be handled differently because they&#3=
9;re different protocols, requiring different code. A single device might b=
e performing NAT on IPv4 traffic it receives and doing standard stateless f=
orwarding of IPv6 traffic. Is that the scenario you&#39;re describing?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;d struggle to believe that there are CGN devices where=
 performing NAT on IPv6 traffic is mandatory if IPv4 NAT is being performed=
.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"> Unfortunately RFC 4864 does not mention such case, AFAIK.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In any case, I am happy to concede it could be an extreme case and tha=
t it is not necessary anymore in IPv6 for the great majority of use cases.<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I was not really making a specific case for IPv6 - my opposition was t=
o the concept that NAT is not security, and to the fact that it should be w=
ritten as such in the RFC.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">So this draft is purely about IPv6. There will be a lot of I=
Pv4 security measures that can be applied to IPv6, however there will also =
be others that shouldn&#39;t, and opportunities where IPv6 can provide bett=
er security that IPv4 (e.g. sparse host addressing in a /64 makes address p=
robing to discover hosts impossible within a useful and practical timeframe=
.).<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0&gt; NAT *does* provide a form of security</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">What specific security does it provide that is due to the ad=
dress translation function?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">If you&#39;re thinking about the protection provided due to =
the state being created during the address translation process, that state =
can be created without performing address translation, which is what a stat=
eful firewall does and did in IPv4 before NAT became widely deployed.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; - the fact that it is not desirable or it is unnecessar=
y to use is another topic, in which I believe we all agree (at least for 99=
% of use cases ;-))<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t see a need to deploy NAT with IPv6 as what has b=
een achieved with IPv4 NAT can be achieved in IPv6 without the drawbacks of=
 NAT.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Regards,<br>
Mark.<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B<br>
&gt; Marco Ermini<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD<br>
&gt; Senior IT Security Analyst<br>
&gt; D=C2=A0+49 (0)899 901 1523 =C2=A0M=C2=A0+49 (0)175 439 5642<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ResMed Germany Inc<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Mark Smith [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com">mar=
kzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:43 AM<br>
&gt; To: Marco Ermini<br>
&gt; Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke); <a href=3D"m=
ailto:fgont@si6networks.com">fgont@si6networks.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:o=
psec@ietf.org">opsec@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ie=
tf.org">draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:linkedin@xn--de=
brn-nva.de">linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org=
">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v=
6-08<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 16 June 2016 at 19:15, Marco Ermini &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Marco.Erm=
ini@resmed.com">Marco.Ermini@resmed.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Well, actually, infrastructure hiding IS part of security.=C2=A0 =
It is not the full picture, but it is incorrect to say that it is not.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I personally don&#39;t sympathize on NAT-haters.=C2=A0 NAT has it=
s reasons,<br>
&gt; &gt; especially for carrier-grade NAT<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; CGN isn&#39;t necessary in IPv6, it&#39;s to solve the problem of ISPs=
 running out of IPv4 addresses.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0and especially in the telco scenario, and yes, it does provide s=
ome level of security - again, not the complete picture, but it does.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; NAT is not necessary in IPv6. The equivalent of NAT&#39;s perceived se=
curity can be provided via alternative methods, as described in RFC4864.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A further technique to hide topology that isn&#39;t mentioned in RFC48=
64 is to use something like ISATAP or similar, to create a single /64 subne=
t over the top of multiple IPv4 subnets. Externally, all hosts will appear =
to belong to a single IPv6 subnet, hiding the internal topology.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If you truly want to hide the identities of hosts, NAT doesn&#39;t do =
enough - it is only translating addresses, where as there are many other ho=
st identifiers that the host itself supplies or will receive and supply tha=
t can identify hosts e.g. HTTP cookies. &quot;A Technique for Counting NATt=
ed Hosts&quot;<br>
&gt; (<a href=3D"https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf">https://=
www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf</a>) showed how a field within the=
 IPv4 header that leaked across a NAT was able to be used to identify hosts=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If you truly want to hide a host from the Internet, yet still allow it=
 to access things on the Internet, under IPv6 your network would use ULA ad=
dressing, and have a per-application protocol proxy server that makes all r=
equests look like they&#39;ve entirely originated from the application prox=
y server itself. To the Internet server, the application proxy server would=
 appear to be the application end host making the requests, preventing any =
internal host identifiers or other attributes from leaking.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Mark.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Marco Ermini<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD Senior IT Security Analyst=
 D<br>
&gt; &gt; +49 (0)899 901 1523=C2=A0 M +49 (0)175 439 5642<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ResMed Germany Inc<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: OPSEC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org">ops=
ec-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Brian E<br>
&gt; &gt; Carpenter<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:45 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com">fgont@si6networks.co=
m</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:opsec@ietf.org">opsec@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de">linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org">draft-ietf-opsec-=
v6@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.=C2=A0 We n=
eed to be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; able to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.=
<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don&#39;t think=
 this is the document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What we s=
hould do here is underline that NAT !=3D security.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; While I&#39;m here, some other points:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;2.2.=C2=A0 Extension Headers<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando&#39;s=
 I-D &amp; RFC.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; That&#39;s not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a lot o=
f<br>
&gt; &gt; relevance to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to refe=
r to<br>
&gt; &gt; most of the material (Fernando&#39;s or not) unless it&#39;s dire=
ctly relevant<br>
&gt; &gt; to opsec. I think the reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filte=
ring,<br>
&gt; &gt; but only if that document is going anywhere.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;2.3.3.=C2=A0 ND/RA Rate Limiting<br>
&gt; &gt; ...<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The following drafts are actively discussing methods=
 to<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi network=
s in order to<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address this issue:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficient-nd]=
&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 and 201=
5 respectively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;4.2.=C2=A0 Transition Mechanism<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SP will typically use transition mechanisms such as =
6rd, 6PE, MAP,<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transition S=
ection 2.7.2<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 section.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Shouldn&#39;t you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations section=
.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Rgds<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as w=
ell.=C2=A0 We<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of =
any<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability =
features<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; does not provide any satisfactory way &quot;to ensure audibil=
ity and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; traceability&quot; [Section 2.1.6].<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; OPSEC mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:OPSEC@ietf.org">OPSEC@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec</a><br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</p>

--94eb2c0cbf7ad9947e0535643725--


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From: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:21:27 +1000
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org, "opsec@ietf.org" <opsec@ietf.org>, "linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de" <linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de>, "fgont@si6networks.com" <fgont@si6networks.com>, Erik Kline <ek@google.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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On 17 Jun 2016 00:15, "Marco Ermini" <Marco.Ermini@resmed.com> wrote:
>
> I'll try the horrible Outlook to reply using text, please beg my pardon
if this is not formatted properly.
>
> On Thursday, June 16, 2016 2:17 PM, Mark Smith [mailto:
markzzzsmith@gmail.com] wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> NAT can be still necessary in IPv6 in dual-stack scenario, for
instance, where every host is assigned both a IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and
the
> >> CGN equipment can't handle them differently.
> >Can you provide an example of this sort of CGN device.
>
> I would prefer not to make names, but you would be unpleasantly surprised=
.

I'm sceptical, I and I think others would want a concrete example.

If people aren't implementing specifications well, we need to know, so that
if necessary the specifications can be improved.

  Anyway, it is also not just a matter of not being able to configure them
in a certain way (which is possibly the case), but also the case in which
they don't work properly.
>
> > IPv4 and IPv6 have to be handled differently because they're different
protocols, requiring different code. A single device might be
> > performing NAT on IPv4 traffic it receives and doing standard stateless
forwarding of IPv6 traffic. Is that the scenario you're describing?
>
> Yes, for instance.

OK, so "CGN" is not being performed on IPv6 traffic.

>Or, they handle certain functions (e.g. NAT) purely in the data plane as
they are logically simple to be implemented in firmware, while more complex
functions (like implementing ULA addresses translation) requires routine
engines to be involved, therefore involving different latency for execution=
.
>

So this sounds like equipment here additional features cannot be
implemented in hardware, so it is implemented in control plane software.

This is an example of why not to use NAT. It is technically very complex
compared to pure IPv4 and pure IPv6 forwarding.

I'm starting to wonder if people think that if they want to use ULAs for
some reason, they think they then must NAT them. If they do, I think that
might show a misunderstanding of something fundamental about IPv6 - a host
natively supports multiple concurrent addresses with different scopes, and
tries to choose one of its source address to match the destination address.

> It is pretty common that customers with ISPs offering dual stack, to
experience a higher latency for their connection once they implement IPv6
along with IPv4.   This does not apply when only IPv4 or only IPv6 are used=
.
>

I'd like some examples of this.

I've been natively dual stacked at home for the past near 5 years. I have
not experienced additional and noticeable higher latency for anything I do.
It just works, and I can't tell what is going over IPv4 or IPv6 - and I
know that most if not all Google, Facebook and Netflix traffic can and does
come over IPv6.

I also worked in the residential deployment of IPv6 at the other end of my
connection in 2009/2010, and we never received any IPv6 latency complaints.
In 2012 it was enabled by default for new customer connections.

I have come across presentations over the past years that have shown that
IPv6 has reduced latency for dual stack services, because the IPv6 path was
different and simpler than the IPv4 path.

> Another requirement is that a specific logging or monitoring system is
implemented (especially for legal requirements), and this is done through
logging NAT translations.  An ISP implementing IPv6 along with IPv4 would
be in that situation.
>

No need to do _address translation_ to be able to perform that.

> Luckily, router vendors are moving away from the antiquate architecture
which separates data and management plane, for various reasons.
>

Actually, that's going to increase the cost of equipment, because it isn't
going to be cheap to do something complex fast.

> This is also why we published draft-gont-opsec-ipv6-firewall-reqs-03.txt,
to make it explicit that this should not happen.
>
> (I am aware this is off-topic, just making my point :-))
>
> >>Unfortunately RFC 4864 does not mention such case, AFAIK.
> >>
> > In any case, I am happy to concede it could be an extreme case and that
it is not necessary anymore in IPv6 for the great majority of use
> > cases.
>
> Okay
>
> >> I was not really making a specific case for IPv6 - my opposition was
to the concept that NAT is not security, and to the fact that it should be
> >> written as such in the RFC.
> > So this draft is purely about IPv6. There will be a lot of IPv4
security measures that can be applied to IPv6, however there will also be
others
> > that shouldn't, and opportunities where IPv6 can provide better
security that IPv4 (e.g. sparse host addressing in a /64 makes address
probing
> > to discover hosts impossible within a useful and practical timeframe.).
>
> Okay, I have nothing to object on this.
>
>
> >> NAT *does* provide a form of security
> >What specific security does it provide that is due to the address
translation function?
> > If you're thinking about the protection provided due to the state being
created during the address translation process, that state can be
> > created without performing address translation, which is what a
stateful firewall does and did in IPv4 before NAT became widely deployed.
>
> I totally agree with you.  I am actually referring to the possibility to
hide the systems behind the NATted interfaces of the router/firewall, not
just their addresses but also ports and services.  If you only apply
filtering, you are protecting - but not hiding.
>

NAT is no where near as effective at hiding systems as people think. Too
many attributes of the system behind the NAT leak across NAT, or can be
forced to leak across the NAT.

It is quite a porous barrier, because NAT is not actually designed to hide
systems. Address translation inherently hides some of the attributes of the
systems (addresses) but not all of them.

> In a perfect world, you have such good filters that you can transparently
provide the real addresses and ports from clients to the rest of the
Internet

It's sounding like you're not up to date with IPv6 firewalling capabilities
in devices, and therefore might be assuming that none exist.

Are you aware for example that Windows has had a stateful IPv6 firewall,
enabled by default, since Windows XP service pack 2, released more than a
decade ago?

I've been using IPv6 under Linux to access the Internet either via tunnels
or natively for more than a decade, using the stateful IPv6 firewall that
has been part of the Linux kernel for at least that long.

This Android phone has native and public IPv6 addresses and is not behind
any sort of IPv6 NAT. It's behind a device that can perform IPv6 stateful
firewalling, however I think I've turned it off, because I trust that as
Google can't trust there is a network firewall upstream of my phone, they
ensure my phone is "Internet proof".

The "perfect" world you're referring to is and has been reality for a long
time for a lot of people.

>- however we don't live in such world, therefore hiding provides an
additional layer of protection in the "defence in depth" approach.
>
> The fact that this "hiding" actually hinders the deployment of many
services and makes life worse to engineers in many cases, is another topic
on which we agree totally :-)
>
> There are also cases where NAT offers better (or at least simpler)
protection than filters.  For instance, there are known "overbilling
attacks" performed in telco networks, where mobile terminals are sent with
UDP packets to keep them alive even if would actually disconnect, causing
them to be excessively billed.  Filters for those situations tend to be
complicated and need to understand the Layer-7 protocol running over UDP to
protect the terminals; NAT offers a straightforward protection, instead.
>

There is no need to perform _address translation_ to perform this
protection.

Continuing to say NAT in these examples is a bit like saying "I need my
toolbox to bang in nails". You need your toolbox because that is where your
hammer is, however it is actually your hammer that you use to bang in nails=
.

NAT is address translation + stateful filtering inherent in the operation
of address translation. People who object to NAT in IPv6 are objecting to
the implied assertion that it is necessary to perform address translation
to achieve stateful filtering.

People who advocate NAT for IPv6 for security purposes don't seem to
understand that address translation is *not* required to be able to perform
stateful filtering - or they're using the term "NAT" when they should
really be using the term "stateful filtering".

> PS. I am aware that major firewall vendors implement filters against
overbilling attacks; I was only making an objection to the semantic of the
sentence: NAT *provides* security, saying the contrary is not correct.

"Security against what" is the key question. You can't actually say NAT
provides security without defining the threat or context. If you don't
define the threat, the implication of such a statement is that it provides
security against literally every threat.

If a bank implements NAT on their data network, are they now secured
against bank robbers coming into a branch with guns? Obviously not.

"NAT *provides* security" is going to be wrong in many cases because NAT is
an entirely ineffective measure for a large set of threats.

> Whether this could be achieved in some other ways is another matter.
>

It is the *exact* matter here.

NAT is being asserted as the security measure that should by used in IPv6,
because it has been used in IPv4 (and not necessarily exclusively because
of security - lack of IPv4 addresses is another reason), without any
consideration of its drawbacks or alternatives that don't have those
drawbacks e.g. those described in RFC4864.

>
> >> - the fact that it is not desirable or it is unnecessary to use is
another topic, in which I believe we all agree (at least for 99% of use
cases ;-))
> >
> > I don't see a need to deploy NAT with IPv6 as what has been achieved
with IPv4 NAT can be achieved in IPv6 without the drawbacks of NAT.
>
> I mean the same as you do, I would just phrase it as "the poor ISPs which
still do that, should consider migrating their architecture to better
options".
>

The cost of CGN capacity to NAT video traffic volumes from popular video
sites is likely going to make deploying native IPv6 a cheaper alternative
very quickly.

Regards,
Mark.

>
> Regards,
> Marco
>
> >
> >Regards,
> >Mark.
> >
> > Regards,
> > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
> > Marco Ermini
> >
> > CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD
> > Senior IT Security Analyst
> > D +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
> >
> > ResMed Germany Inc
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:43 AM
> > To: Marco Ermini
> > Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke);
fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org;
linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de; v6ops@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of
draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
> >
> > On 16 June 2016 at 19:15, Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@resmed.com> wrote:
> > > Well, actually, infrastructure hiding IS part of security.  It is not
the full picture, but it is incorrect to say that it is not.
> > >
> > > I personally don't sympathize on NAT-haters.  NAT has its reasons,
> > > especially for carrier-grade NAT
> >
> > CGN isn't necessary in IPv6, it's to solve the problem of ISPs running
out of IPv4 addresses.
> >
> >  and especially in the telco scenario, and yes, it does provide some
level of security - again, not the complete picture, but it does.
> > >
> >
> > NAT is not necessary in IPv6. The equivalent of NAT's perceived
security can be provided via alternative methods, as described in RFC4864.
> >
> > A further technique to hide topology that isn't mentioned in RFC4864 is
to use something like ISATAP or similar, to create a single /64 subnet over
the top of multiple IPv4 subnets. Externally, all hosts will appear to
belong to a single IPv6 subnet, hiding the internal topology.
> >
> > If you truly want to hide the identities of hosts, NAT doesn't do
enough - it is only translating addresses, where as there are many other
host identifiers that the host itself supplies or will receive and supply
that can identify hosts e.g. HTTP cookies. "A Technique for Counting NATted
Hosts"
> > (https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf) showed how a field
within the IPv4 header that leaked across a NAT was able to be used to
identify hosts.
> >
> > If you truly want to hide a host from the Internet, yet still allow it
to access things on the Internet, under IPv6 your network would use ULA
addressing, and have a per-application protocol proxy server that makes all
requests look like they've entirely originated from the application proxy
server itself. To the Internet server, the application proxy server would
appear to be the application end host making the requests, preventing any
internal host identifiers or other attributes from leaking.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mark.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Marco Ermini
> > >
> > > CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD Senior IT Security Analyst D
> > > +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
> > >
> > > ResMed Germany Inc
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: OPSEC [mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> > > Carpenter
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:45 AM
> > > To: Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
> > > Cc: fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de;
> > > draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of
> > > draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
> > >
> > > On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:
> > >> Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be
> > >> able to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.
> > >
> > > I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don't think this is
the document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What we should do
here is underline that NAT !=3D security.
> > >
> > > While I'm here, some other points:
> > >
> > > "2.2.  Extension Headers
> > >
> > >    TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando's I-D & RFC."
> > >
> > > That's not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a lot of
> > > relevance to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to refer to
> > > most of the material (Fernando's or not) unless it's directly relevan=
t
> > > to opsec. I think the reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering=
,
> > > but only if that document is going anywhere.
> > >
> > > "2.3.3.  ND/RA Rate Limiting
> > > ...
> > >    The following drafts are actively discussing methods to
> > >    rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi networks in order to
> > >    address this issue:
> > >
> > >    o  [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]
> > >
> > >    o  [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficient-nd]"
> > >
> > > Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 and 2015
respectively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.
> > >
> > > "4.2.  Transition Mechanism
> > >
> > >    SP will typically use transition mechanisms such as 6rd, 6PE, MAP,
> > >    DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transition Section 2.7.2
> > >    section."
> > >
> > > Shouldn't you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?
> > >
> > > Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations section.
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >     Brian
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  W=
e
> > >> should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
> > >> protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability feature=
s
> > >> does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and
> > >> traceability" [Section 2.1.6].
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> v6ops mailing list
> > >> v6ops@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OPSEC mailing list
> > > OPSEC@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > v6ops mailing list
> > > v6ops@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On 17 Jun 2016 00:15, &quot;Marco Ermini&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Marco.=
Ermini@resmed.com">Marco.Ermini@resmed.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;ll try the horrible Outlook to reply using text, please beg my p=
ardon if this is not formatted properly.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Thursday, June 16, 2016 2:17 PM, Mark Smith [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:markzzzsmith@gmail.com">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>] wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; NAT can be still necessary in IPv6 in dual-stack scenario, fo=
r instance, where every host is assigned both a IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and=
 the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; CGN equipment can&#39;t handle them differently.=C2=A0<br>
&gt; &gt;Can you provide an example of this sort of CGN device.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would prefer not to make names, but you would be unpleasantly surpri=
sed.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m sceptical, I and I think others would want a concret=
e example. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">If people aren&#39;t implementing specifications well, we ne=
ed to know, so that if necessary the specifications can be improved.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Anyway, it is also not just a matter of not being abl=
e to configure them in a certain way (which is possibly the case), but also=
 the case in which they don&#39;t work properly.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; IPv4 and IPv6 have to be handled differently because they&#39;re =
different protocols, requiring different code. A single device might be<br>
&gt; &gt; performing NAT on IPv4 traffic it receives and doing standard sta=
teless forwarding of IPv6 traffic. Is that the scenario you&#39;re describi=
ng?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes, for instance.=C2=A0</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">OK, so &quot;CGN&quot; is not being performed on IPv6 traffi=
c.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"> &gt;Or, they handle certain functions (e.g. NAT) purely in =
the data plane as they are logically simple to be implemented in firmware, =
while more complex functions (like implementing ULA addresses translation) =
requires routine engines to be involved, therefore involving different late=
ncy for execution.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">So this sounds like equipment here additional features canno=
t be implemented in hardware, so it is implemented in control plane softwar=
e.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">This is an example of why not to use NAT. It is technically =
very complex compared to pure IPv4 and pure IPv6 forwarding.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m starting to wonder if people think that if they want=
 to use ULAs for some reason, they think they then must NAT them. If they d=
o, I think that might show a misunderstanding of something fundamental abou=
t IPv6 - a host natively supports multiple concurrent addresses with differ=
ent scopes, and tries to choose one of its source address to match the dest=
ination address.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; It is pretty common that customers with ISPs offering d=
ual stack, to experience a higher latency for their connection once they im=
plement IPv6 along with IPv4.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This does not apply when only IPv=
4 or only IPv6 are used.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;d like some examples of this.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;ve been natively dual stacked at home for the past nea=
r 5 years. I have not experienced additional and noticeable higher latency =
for anything I do. It just works, and I can&#39;t tell what is going over I=
Pv4 or IPv6 - and I know that most if not all Google, Facebook and Netflix =
traffic can and does come over IPv6.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I also worked in the residential deployment of IPv6 at the o=
ther end of my connection in 2009/2010, and we never received any IPv6 late=
ncy complaints. In 2012 it was enabled by default for new customer connecti=
ons.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I have come across presentations over the past years that ha=
ve shown that IPv6 has reduced latency for dual stack services, because the=
 IPv6 path was different and simpler than the IPv4 path.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Another requirement is that a specific logging or monit=
oring system is implemented (especially for legal requirements), and this i=
s done through logging NAT translations.=C2=A0 An ISP implementing IPv6 alo=
ng with IPv4 would be in that situation.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">No need to do _address translation_ to be able to perform th=
at.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Luckily, router vendors are moving away from the antiqu=
ate architecture which separates data and management plane, for various rea=
sons.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Actually, that&#39;s going to increase the cost of equipment=
, because it isn&#39;t going to be cheap to do something complex fast.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; This is also why we published draft-gont-opsec-ipv6-fir=
ewall-reqs-03.txt, to make it explicit that this should not happen.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (I am aware this is off-topic, just making my point :-))<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;Unfortunately RFC 4864 does not mention such case, AFAIK.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; In any case, I am happy to concede it could be an extreme case an=
d that it is not necessary anymore in IPv6 for the great majority of use<br=
>
&gt; &gt; cases.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Okay<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I was not really making a specific case for IPv6 - my opposit=
ion was to the concept that NAT is not security, and to the fact that it sh=
ould be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; written as such in the RFC.<br>
&gt; &gt; So this draft is purely about IPv6. There will be a lot of IPv4 s=
ecurity measures that can be applied to IPv6, however there will also be ot=
hers<br>
&gt; &gt; that shouldn&#39;t, and opportunities where IPv6 can provide bett=
er security that IPv4 (e.g. sparse host addressing in a /64 makes address p=
robing<br>
&gt; &gt; to discover hosts impossible within a useful and practical timefr=
ame.).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Okay, I have nothing to object on this.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; NAT *does* provide a form of security<br>
&gt; &gt;What specific security does it provide that is due to the address =
translation function?<br>
&gt; &gt; If you&#39;re thinking about the protection provided due to the s=
tate being created during the address translation process, that state can b=
e<br>
&gt; &gt; created without performing address translation, which is what a s=
tateful firewall does and did in IPv4 before NAT became widely deployed.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I totally agree with you.=C2=A0 I am actually referring to the possibi=
lity to hide the systems behind the NATted interfaces of the router/firewal=
l, not just their addresses but also ports and services.=C2=A0 If you only =
apply filtering, you are protecting - but not hiding.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">NAT is no where near as effective at hiding systems as peopl=
e think. Too many attributes of the system behind the NAT leak across NAT, =
or can be forced to leak across the NAT.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">It is quite a porous barrier, because NAT is not actually de=
signed to hide systems. Address translation inherently hides some of the at=
tributes of the systems (addresses) but not all of them.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; In a perfect world, you have such good filters that you=
 can transparently provide the real addresses and ports from clients to the=
 rest of the Internet </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">It&#39;s sounding like you&#39;re not up to date with IPv6 f=
irewalling capabilities in devices, and therefore might be assuming that no=
ne exist.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Are you aware for example that Windows has had a stateful IP=
v6 firewall, enabled by default, since Windows XP service pack 2, released =
more than a decade ago?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;ve been using IPv6 under Linux to access the Internet =
either via tunnels or natively for more than a decade, using the stateful I=
Pv6 firewall that has been part of the Linux kernel for at least that long.=
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">This Android phone has native and public IPv6 addresses and =
is not behind any sort of IPv6 NAT. It&#39;s behind a device that can perfo=
rm IPv6 stateful firewalling, however I think I&#39;ve turned it off, becau=
se I trust that as Google can&#39;t trust there is a network firewall upstr=
eam of my phone, they ensure my phone is &quot;Internet proof&quot;.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The &quot;perfect&quot; world you&#39;re referring to is and=
 has been reality for a long time for a lot of people.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;- however we don&#39;t live in such world, therefore hid=
ing provides an additional layer of protection in the &quot;defence in dept=
h&quot; approach.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The fact that this &quot;hiding&quot; actually hinders the deployment =
of many services and makes life worse to engineers in many cases, is anothe=
r topic on which we agree totally :-)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are also cases where NAT offers better (or at least simpler) pro=
tection than filters.=C2=A0 For instance, there are known &quot;overbilling=
 attacks&quot; performed in telco networks, where mobile terminals are sent=
 with UDP packets to keep them alive even if would actually disconnect, cau=
sing them to be excessively billed.=C2=A0 Filters for those situations tend=
 to be complicated and need to understand the Layer-7 protocol running over=
 UDP to protect the terminals; NAT offers a straightforward protection, ins=
tead.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">There is no need to perform _address translation_ to perform=
 this protection.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Continuing to say NAT in these examples is a bit like saying=
 &quot;I need my toolbox to bang in nails&quot;. You need your toolbox beca=
use that is where your hammer is, however it is actually your hammer that y=
ou use to bang in nails.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">NAT is address translation + stateful filtering inherent in =
the operation of address translation. People who object to NAT in IPv6 are =
objecting to the implied assertion that it is necessary to perform address =
translation to achieve stateful filtering.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">People who advocate NAT for IPv6 for security purposes don&#=
39;t seem to understand that address translation is *not* required to be ab=
le to perform stateful filtering - or they&#39;re using the term &quot;NAT&=
quot; when they should really be using the term &quot;stateful filtering&qu=
ot;.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; PS. I am aware that major firewall vendors implement fi=
lters against overbilling attacks; I was only making an objection to the se=
mantic of the sentence: NAT *provides* security, saying the contrary is not=
 correct.=C2=A0</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&quot;Security against what&quot; is the key question. You c=
an&#39;t actually say NAT provides security without defining the threat or =
context. If you don&#39;t define the threat, the implication of such a stat=
ement is that it provides security against literally every threat.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">If a bank implements NAT on their data network, are they now=
 secured against bank robbers coming into a branch with guns? Obviously not=
.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&quot;NAT *provides* security&quot; is going to be wrong in =
many cases because NAT is an entirely ineffective measure for a large set o=
f threats.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Whether this could be achieved in some other ways is an=
other matter.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">It is the *exact* matter here.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">NAT is being asserted as the security measure that should by=
 used in IPv6, because it has been used in IPv4 (and not necessarily exclus=
ively because of security - lack of IPv4 addresses is another reason), with=
out any consideration of its drawbacks or alternatives that don&#39;t have =
those drawbacks e.g. those described in RFC4864.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; - the fact that it is not desirable or it is unnecessary to u=
se is another topic, in which I believe we all agree (at least for 99% of u=
se cases ;-))<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I don&#39;t see a need to deploy NAT with IPv6 as what has been a=
chieved with IPv4 NAT can be achieved in IPv6 without the drawbacks of NAT.=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I mean the same as you do, I would just phrase it as &quot;the poor IS=
Ps which still do that, should consider migrating their architecture to bet=
ter options&quot;.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The cost of CGN capacity to NAT video traffic volumes from p=
opular video sites is likely going to make deploying native IPv6 a cheaper =
alternative very quickly. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Regards,<br>
Mark.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Marco<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;Mark.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B<br>
&gt; &gt; Marco Ermini<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD<br>
&gt; &gt; Senior IT Security Analyst<br>
&gt; &gt; D=C2=A0+49 (0)899 901 1523 =C2=A0M=C2=A0+49 (0)175 439 5642<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ResMed Germany Inc<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Mark Smith [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com=
">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:43 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Marco Ermini<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke); <a href=
=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com">fgont@si6networks.com</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:opsec@ietf.org">opsec@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-opsec-=
v6@ietf.org">draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:linkedin@x=
n--debrn-nva.de">linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@iet=
f.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-op=
sec-v6-08<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On 16 June 2016 at 19:15, Marco Ermini &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Marc=
o.Ermini@resmed.com">Marco.Ermini@resmed.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Well, actually, infrastructure hiding IS part of security.=
=C2=A0 It is not the full picture, but it is incorrect to say that it is no=
t.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I personally don&#39;t sympathize on NAT-haters.=C2=A0 NAT h=
as its reasons,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; especially for carrier-grade NAT<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; CGN isn&#39;t necessary in IPv6, it&#39;s to solve the problem of=
 ISPs running out of IPv4 addresses.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0and especially in the telco scenario, and yes, it does prov=
ide some level of security - again, not the complete picture, but it does.<=
br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; NAT is not necessary in IPv6. The equivalent of NAT&#39;s perceiv=
ed security can be provided via alternative methods, as described in RFC486=
4.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; A further technique to hide topology that isn&#39;t mentioned in =
RFC4864 is to use something like ISATAP or similar, to create a single /64 =
subnet over the top of multiple IPv4 subnets. Externally, all hosts will ap=
pear to belong to a single IPv6 subnet, hiding the internal topology.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If you truly want to hide the identities of hosts, NAT doesn&#39;=
t do enough - it is only translating addresses, where as there are many oth=
er host identifiers that the host itself supplies or will receive and suppl=
y that can identify hosts e.g. HTTP cookies. &quot;A Technique for Counting=
 NATted Hosts&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf">htt=
ps://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf</a>) showed how a field withi=
n the IPv4 header that leaked across a NAT was able to be used to identify =
hosts.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If you truly want to hide a host from the Internet, yet still all=
ow it to access things on the Internet, under IPv6 your network would use U=
LA addressing, and have a per-application protocol proxy server that makes =
all requests look like they&#39;ve entirely originated from the application=
 proxy server itself. To the Internet server, the application proxy server =
would appear to be the application end host making the requests, preventing=
 any internal host identifiers or other attributes from leaking.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mark.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Marco Ermini<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD Senior IT Security An=
alyst D<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; +49 (0)899 901 1523=C2=A0 M +49 (0)175 439 5642<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; ResMed Germany Inc<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: OPSEC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org=
">opsec-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Brian E<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Carpenter<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:45 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:fgont@si6networks.com">fgont@si6networ=
ks.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:opsec@ietf.org">opsec@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de">linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org">draft-ietf-o=
psec-v6@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><=
br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.=C2=A0=
 We need to be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; able to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the =
IETF.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don&#39;t =
think this is the document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What=
 we should do here is underline that NAT !=3D security.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; While I&#39;m here, some other points:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;2.2.=C2=A0 Extension Headers<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando&=
#39;s I-D &amp; RFC.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; That&#39;s not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a =
lot of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; relevance to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to=
 refer to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; most of the material (Fernando&#39;s or not) unless it&#39;s=
 directly relevant<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; to opsec. I think the reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-=
filtering,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; but only if that document is going anywhere.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;2.3.3.=C2=A0 ND/RA Rate Limiting<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; ...<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The following drafts are actively discussing me=
thods to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi ne=
tworks in order to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address this issue:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficien=
t-nd]&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 an=
d 2015 respectively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;4.2.=C2=A0 Transition Mechanism<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SP will typically use transition mechanisms suc=
h as 6rd, 6PE, MAP,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transit=
ion Section 2.7.2<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 section.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Shouldn&#39;t you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations se=
ction.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Rgds<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more=
 as well.=C2=A0 We<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP=
 (of any<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditabi=
lity features<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; does not provide any satisfactory way &quot;to ensure au=
dibility and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; traceability&quot; [Section 2.1.6].<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; OPSEC mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:OPSEC@ietf.org">OPSEC@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</p>

--001a1137634ae50e6505356e55a5--


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To: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>, Erik Kline <ek@google.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
References: <D386FF93.75916%evyncke@cisco.com> <CAAedzxqBr=ApvGTUrjNUnRmpcamkt4OH1CchcDEWgDcXRgo8Fw@mail.gmail.com> <173d2c6b-4cbf-88da-cf20-710a90e04c7e@gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DBF82F@ge2eml2k1004>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:39:30 +1200
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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On 16/06/2016 21:15, Marco Ermini wrote:
> Well, actually, infrastructure hiding IS part of security.  It is not t=
he full picture, but it is incorrect to say that it is not.

Have you read RFC4864 recently? Section 4.4 is all about how you don't ne=
ed
NAT to hide infrastructure topology in IPv6.

> I personally don't sympathize on NAT-haters.  NAT has its reasons, espe=
cially for carrier-grade NAT and especially in the telco scenario, and ye=
s, it does provide some level of security - again, not the complete pictu=
re, but it does.

That's IPv4. This is IPv6.

    Brian

>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
> Marco Ermini
>=20
> CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD
> Senior IT Security Analyst
> D +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
>=20
> ResMed Germany Inc
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSEC [mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpen=
ter
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:45 AM
> To: Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
> Cc: fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de; d=
raft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6=
-08
>=20
> On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:
>> Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be able=
=20
>> to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.
>=20
> I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don't think this is t=
he document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What we should do=
 here is underline that NAT !=3D security.
>=20
> While I'm here, some other points:
>=20
> "2.2.  Extension Headers
>=20
>    TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando's I-D & RFC."
>=20
> That's not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a lot of relevanc=
e to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to refer to most of the=
 material (Fernando's or not) unless it's directly relevant to opsec. I t=
hink the reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering,
> but only if that document is going anywhere.
>=20
> "2.3.3.  ND/RA Rate Limiting
> ...
>    The following drafts are actively discussing methods to
>    rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi networks in order to
>    address this issue:
>=20
>    o  [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]
>=20
>    o  [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficient-nd]"
>=20
> Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 and 2015 resp=
ectively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.
>=20
> "4.2.  Transition Mechanism
>=20
>    SP will typically use transition mechanisms such as 6rd, 6PE, MAP,
>    DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transition Section 2.7.2
>    section."
>=20
> Shouldn't you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?
>=20
> Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations section.
>=20
> Rgds
>     Brian
>=20
>>
>> Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  We =

>> should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
>> protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features =

>> does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and=20
>> traceability" [Section 2.1.6].
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> OPSEC mailing list
> OPSEC@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec
>=20


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To: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
References: <D386FF93.75916%evyncke@cisco.com> <CAAedzxqBr=ApvGTUrjNUnRmpcamkt4OH1CchcDEWgDcXRgo8Fw@mail.gmail.com> <173d2c6b-4cbf-88da-cf20-710a90e04c7e@gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DBF82F@ge2eml2k1004> <CAO42Z2z_pgBrn3bNRagx4W2FYn4aJ=NYNGwzDk+Q2o373qux+A@mail.gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DBFD81@ge2eml2k1004>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:46:20 +1200
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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In addition to what Mark said about this:

On 16/06/2016 22:03, Marco Ermini wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> NAT can be still necessary in IPv6 in dual-stack scenario, for instance=
, where every host is assigned both a IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and the CGN=
 equipment can't handle them differently.  Unfortunately RFC 4864 does no=
t mention such case, AFAIK.

CGN and IPv6 are completely orthogonal, even in a dual stack scenario.
v4 packets go to the CGN function and v6 packets go to the v6 router
function, possibly in the same box. So absolutely the equipment handles
them differently. (If there are sick products that get this wrong, that
is not really the IETF's business. Although it's a bit out of date in
seome aspects,  RFC 6264, An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6=

Transition, explains how to do it correctly.)

    Brian

>=20
> In any case, I am happy to concede it could be an extreme case and that=
 it is not necessary anymore in IPv6 for the great majority of use cases.=

>=20
> I was not really making a specific case for IPv6 - my opposition was to=
 the concept that NAT is not security, and to the fact that it should be =
written as such in the RFC.  NAT *does* provide a form of security - the =
fact that it is not desirable or it is unnecessary to use is another topi=
c, in which I believe we all agree (at least for 99% of use cases ;-))
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
> Marco Ermini
>=20
> CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD
> Senior IT Security Analyst
> D +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
>=20
> ResMed Germany Inc
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:43 AM
> To: Marco Ermini
> Cc: Brian E Carpenter; Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke); fgont@si6netw=
orks.com; opsec@ietf.org; draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; linkedin@xn--debr=
n-nva.de; v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6=
-08
>=20
> On 16 June 2016 at 19:15, Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@resmed.com> wrote:=

>> Well, actually, infrastructure hiding IS part of security.  It is not =
the full picture, but it is incorrect to say that it is not.
>>
>> I personally don't sympathize on NAT-haters.  NAT has its reasons,=20
>> especially for carrier-grade NAT
>=20
> CGN isn't necessary in IPv6, it's to solve the problem of ISPs running =
out of IPv4 addresses.
>=20
>  and especially in the telco scenario, and yes, it does provide some le=
vel of security - again, not the complete picture, but it does.
>>
>=20
> NAT is not necessary in IPv6. The equivalent of NAT's perceived securit=
y can be provided via alternative methods, as described in RFC4864.
>=20
> A further technique to hide topology that isn't mentioned in RFC4864 is=
 to use something like ISATAP or similar, to create a single /64 subnet o=
ver the top of multiple IPv4 subnets. Externally, all hosts will appear t=
o belong to a single IPv6 subnet, hiding the internal topology.
>=20
> If you truly want to hide the identities of hosts, NAT doesn't do enoug=
h - it is only translating addresses, where as there are many other host =
identifiers that the host itself supplies or will receive and supply that=
 can identify hosts e.g. HTTP cookies. "A Technique for Counting NATted H=
osts"
> (https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/fnat.pdf) showed how a field w=
ithin the IPv4 header that leaked across a NAT was able to be used to ide=
ntify hosts.
>=20
> If you truly want to hide a host from the Internet, yet still allow it =
to access things on the Internet, under IPv6 your network would use ULA a=
ddressing, and have a per-application protocol proxy server that makes al=
l requests look like they've entirely originated from the application pro=
xy server itself. To the Internet server, the application proxy server wo=
uld appear to be the application end host making the requests, preventing=
 any internal host identifiers or other attributes from leaking.
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Mark.
>=20
>=20
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Marco Ermini
>>
>> CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD Senior IT Security Analyst D=20
>> +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
>>
>> ResMed Germany Inc
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: OPSEC [mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E=20
>> Carpenter
>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:45 AM
>> To: Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
>> Cc: fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de; =

>> draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of=20
>> draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
>>
>> On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:
>>> Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be=20
>>> able to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.
>>
>> I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don't think this is =
the document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What we should d=
o here is underline that NAT !=3D security.
>>
>> While I'm here, some other points:
>>
>> "2.2.  Extension Headers
>>
>>    TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando's I-D & RFC."
>>
>> That's not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a lot of=20
>> relevance to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to refer to =

>> most of the material (Fernando's or not) unless it's directly relevant=
=20
>> to opsec. I think the reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering,=

>> but only if that document is going anywhere.
>>
>> "2.3.3.  ND/RA Rate Limiting
>> ...
>>    The following drafts are actively discussing methods to
>>    rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi networks in order to
>>    address this issue:
>>
>>    o  [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]
>>
>>    o  [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficient-nd]"
>>
>> Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 and 2015 res=
pectively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.
>>
>> "4.2.  Transition Mechanism
>>
>>    SP will typically use transition mechanisms such as 6rd, 6PE, MAP,
>>    DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transition Section 2.7.2
>>    section."
>>
>> Shouldn't you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?
>>
>> Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations section.
>>
>> Rgds
>>     Brian
>>
>>>
>>> Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  We=
=20
>>> should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
>>> protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features=
=20
>>> does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and=20
>>> traceability" [Section 2.1.6].
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OPSEC mailing list
>> OPSEC@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:11:50 -0700
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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--001a113fef80ddd36805356fe1f1
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On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 12:45 PM, Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote:

> Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be able
> to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.
>

+1. I recall long queues at the mike at IETF 94 saying that.


> Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  We
> should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
> protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features
> does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and
> traceability" [Section 2.1.6].


+1. Instead of the text you have here, I would suggest citing section 9.1
of draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability, which deals with the problem in
detail.

--001a113fef80ddd36805356fe1f1
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jun 15, 2016 at 12:45 PM, Erik Kline <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ek@google.com">ek@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for =
my tastes.=C2=A0 We need to be able<br>
to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.<br></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>+1. I recall long queues at the mike at IETF 94 saying th=
at.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.=C2=A0 We=
<br>
should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any<br>
protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features<br>
does not provide any satisfactory way &quot;to ensure audibility and<br>
traceability&quot; [Section 2.1.6].</blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1. Ins=
tead of the text you have here, I would suggest citing section 9.1 of=C2=A0=
draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability, which deals with the problem in de=
tail.</div></div></div></div>

--001a113fef80ddd36805356fe1f1--


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From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
To: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Hi,

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 10:03:25AM +0000, Marco Ermini wrote:
> NAT can be still necessary in IPv6 in dual-stack scenario, for instance, where every host is assigned both a IPv4 and IPv6 addresses and the CGN equipment can't handle them differently.  Unfortunately RFC 4864 does not mention such case, AFAIK.

Why would anyone route their IPv6 traffic to the IPv4 CGN box?

CGN boxes are way expensive, so anyone with a calculator would route
everything that does not need NAT around the CGN box.

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

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From: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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From: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>
To: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] [OPSEC] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, "opsec@ietf.org" <opsec@ietf.org>, "linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de" <linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de>, "fgont@si6networks.com" <fgont@si6networks.com>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:10:08 +0200
From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
To: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>
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References: <D386FF93.75916%evyncke@cisco.com> <CAAedzxqBr=ApvGTUrjNUnRmpcamkt4OH1CchcDEWgDcXRgo8Fw@mail.gmail.com> <173d2c6b-4cbf-88da-cf20-710a90e04c7e@gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DBF82F@ge2eml2k1004> <CAO42Z2z_pgBrn3bNRagx4W2FYn4aJ=NYNGwzDk+Q2o373qux+A@mail.gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DBFD81@ge2eml2k1004> <20160617114732.GK79185@Space.Net> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DC4B39@ge2eml2k1004>
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Hi,

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 01:16:55PM +0000, Marco Ermini wrote:
> To access IPv4-only enabled hosts?

You wouldn't send IPv*6* packets to an IPv4-only host in a dual-stack
client situation.  CGN for IPv4 is not NAT64.

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
--=20
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

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To: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>, Erik Kline <ek@google.com>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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So, can we agree on "NAT is not required to provide security in IPv6 (see=

for example [RFC4864])."

I agree that this aspect of IPv6, including the appropriate use of ULAs,
is definitely hard to explain to people brought up on common IPv4 practic=
e.

Regards
   Brian

On 17/06/2016 23:29, Marco Ermini wrote:
> I am sorry Brian, I don't think you understood my argument.  I am not a=
rguing about you mention.  I am arguing against the semantic of a phrase =
that says "NAT does not provide security".  This sentence is semantically=
 wrong, and usually comes from a priori NAT-haters (I have met a few).
>=20
> I am only against stating such sentence in the RFC, not against the fac=
t that we don't need NAT.  I hope this is clearer now.
>=20
> Anyway, I have made my point sufficiently, I believe.
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Marco.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 3:40 AM
> To: Marco Ermini; Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
> Cc: fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de; d=
raft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6=
-08
>=20
> On 16/06/2016 21:15, Marco Ermini wrote:
>> Well, actually, infrastructure hiding IS part of security.  It is not =
the full picture, but it is incorrect to say that it is not.
>=20
> Have you read RFC4864 recently? Section 4.4 is all about how you don't =
need NAT to hide infrastructure topology in IPv6.
>=20
>> I personally don't sympathize on NAT-haters.  NAT has its reasons, esp=
ecially for carrier-grade NAT and especially in the telco scenario, and y=
es, it does provide some level of security - again, not the complete pict=
ure, but it does.
>=20
> That's IPv4. This is IPv6.
>=20
>     Brian
>=20
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
>> Marco Ermini
>>
>> CISSP, CISA, CISM, CEH, ITIL, MCP, PhD Senior IT Security Analyst D=20
>> +49 (0)899 901 1523  M +49 (0)175 439 5642
>>
>> ResMed Germany Inc
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: OPSEC [mailto:opsec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E=20
>> Carpenter
>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:45 AM
>> To: Erik Kline; Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
>> Cc: fgont@si6networks.com; opsec@ietf.org; linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de; =

>> draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org; v6ops@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops] Asking for a review of=20
>> draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
>>
>> On 16/06/2016 07:45, Erik Kline wrote:
>>> Section 2.1.2 is far too permissive for my tastes.  We need to be=20
>>> able to say that ULA+IPv6 NAT is NOT RECOMMENDED by the IETF.
>>
>> I have strong sympathy with that statement, but I don't think this is =
the document to do it; the point is made in RFC4864 too. What we should d=
o here is underline that NAT !=3D security.
>>
>> While I'm here, some other points:
>>
>> "2.2.  Extension Headers
>>
>>    TBD, a short section referring to all Fernando's I-D & RFC."
>>
>> That's not the whole story ;-). Firstly, RFC 7045 has a lot of=20
>> relevance to security aspects. Second, there is no reason to refer to =

>> most of the material (Fernando's or not) unless it's directly relevant=
=20
>> to opsec. I think the reference is draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering,=

>> but only if that document is going anywhere.
>>
>> "2.3.3.  ND/RA Rate Limiting
>> ...
>>    The following drafts are actively discussing methods to
>>    rate limit RAs and other ND messages on wifi networks in order to
>>    address this issue:
>>
>>    o  [I-D.thubert-savi-ra-throttler]
>>
>>    o  [I-D.chakrabarti-nordmark-6man-efficient-nd]"
>>
>> Neither of those drafts is in the least active (from 2012 and 2015 res=
pectively). Dead drafts are of no help to the reader, IMHO.
>>
>> "4.2.  Transition Mechanism
>>
>>    SP will typically use transition mechanisms such as 6rd, 6PE, MAP,
>>    DS-Lite which have been analyzed in the transition Section 2.7.2
>>    section."
>>
>> Shouldn't you add RFC6877 464XLAT now?
>>
>> Finally, I think there should be a Privacy Considerations section.
>>
>> Rgds
>>     Brian
>>
>>>
>>> Section 2.6.1.5 could punch up the SAVI stuff a bit more as well.  We=
=20
>>> should, in my opinion, make it painfully clear that DHCP (of any
>>> protocol) in the absence of link-layer security/auditability features=
=20
>>> does not provide any satisfactory way "to ensure audibility and=20
>>> traceability" [Section 2.1.6].
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
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To: Marco Ermini <Marco.Ermini@ResMed.com>
From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <D386FF93.75916%evyncke@cisco.com> <CAAedzxqBr=ApvGTUrjNUnRmpcamkt4OH1CchcDEWgDcXRgo8Fw@mail.gmail.com> <173d2c6b-4cbf-88da-cf20-710a90e04c7e@gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DBF82F@ge2eml2k1004> <CAO42Z2z_pgBrn3bNRagx4W2FYn4aJ=NYNGwzDk+Q2o373qux+A@mail.gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DBFD81@ge2eml2k1004> <CAO42Z2yqb34E3j3ZFqJLZr3P72-yjsurMgmvKovLy2p=sxFKDQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2ywK_KR+e4nqu-Jbr3xj5KQG7=aKrgpceN5tooQCQSvDg@mail.gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DC15F5@ge2eml2k1004> <CAO42Z2yBOAsQ1KEms7PLAK9rbBUJ1PV3Oak+HTDTtENuzv9tNQ@mail.gmail.com> <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DC4AFA@ge2eml2k1004>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:12:09 +0000." <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DC4AFA@ge2eml2k1004>
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:13:22 +1000
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-opsec-v6@ietf.org>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, "opsec@ietf.org" <opsec@ietf.org>, "linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de" <linkedin@xn--debrn-nva.de>, "fgont@si6networks.com" <fgont@si6networks.com>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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In message <38465846B6383D4A8688C0A13971900C48DC4AFA@ge2eml2k1004>, Marco Ermini writes:

> On residential routers, the myth that IPv6 will come and solve all of the
> NAT problems is, and allow ubiquitous and secure access to all the
> devices is, in fact, a myth.  IPv6 breaks protocols as much (if not more)
> than IPv4 NAT.  The most used residential routers in Germany (and proudly
> German engineered product) requires advanced view enabled just to enable
> it; it provides ULAs via DHCPv6, and performs translation to routable
> IPv6 addresses.  While IPv4 NAT needs to perform stateful translation of
> IPs and ports, residential routers on IPv6 only translate IPs  but that
> is not improving a lot.

This sounds like the ISP or CPE vendor has not listened to +15 years
of advice on how to deploy IPv6.  You should be getting a prefix
delegation from the ISP which is then redistributed to the inside
network.  The PD should be at least a /56 and preferably a /48.

The prefix delegation can be delivered via 6RD if there isn't native
IPv6.

ULA is a additional prefix that provides stable internal addressing.

NAT66 is not recommended and has even published several RFC that
states exactly that opinion.

RFC6296

   For reasons discussed in [RFC2993] and Section 5, the IETF does not
   recommend the use of Network Address Translation technology for IPv6.
   Where translation is implemented, however, this specification
   provides a mechanism that has fewer architectural problems than
   merely implementing a traditional stateful Network Address Translator
   in an IPv6 environment.  It also provides a useful alternative to the
   complexities and costs imposed by multihoming using provider-
   independent addressing and the routing and network management issues
   of overlaid ISP address space.  Some problems remain, however.  The
   reader should consider the alternatives suggested in [RFC4864] and
   the considerations of [RFC5902] for improved approaches.

If someone thinks NAT66 provides any effective security they need
their head read.  Internal addresses leak all over the place and
once you have one all the internal machines are addressable.

The only thing NAT66 provides is the ability to have a single IPv6
address per machine vs multiple IPv6 address internally which comes
at a cost of requiring external equipement to be able to determine
the effective GUA the machine has and more complicated software at
the application level to work around the NAT.

Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [v6ops]  Asking for a review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-08
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> On Jun 16, 2016, at 2:43 AM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If you truly want to hide a host from the Internet, yet still allow it
> to access things on the Internet, under IPv6 your network would use
> ULA addressing, and have a per-application protocol proxy server that
> makes all requests look like they've entirely originated from the
> application proxy server itself. To the Internet server, the
> application proxy server would appear to be the application end host
> making the requests, preventing any internal host identifiers or other
> attributes from leaking.

Even there, beware the email header.

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From: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
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Thread-Topic: IETF96 - Update your drafts & slots requests
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From nobody Fri Jun 24 09:01:28 2016
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Subject: [OPSEC] opsec - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 96
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Dear Gunter Van de Velde,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 

opsec Session 1 (1:30:00)
    Wednesday, Afternoon Session I 1400-1530
    Room Name: Bellevue size: 200
    ---------------------------------------------
    


Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Gunter Van de Velde

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  1.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 70
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: sidr v6ops 6man opsawg homenet




Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Thu Jun 30 23:39:22 2016
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Dear OPSEC Members,

Following the presentation in SAAG from IETF94 =
(https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-saag-3.pdf), I've =
written the following draft attempting to describe a threat model for =
IPv6 transition technologies.
The draft is at its second iteration, and if possible I would like to =
discuss it in the next OPSEC session.=20
=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-georgescu-opsec-ipv6-trans-tech-threat-m=
odel-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-georgescu-opsec-ipv6-trans-tech-threat-=
model-01>
As an overview of the changes:

*following Joel Jaeggli=E2=80=99s comment=20
	+added a reference to the STRIDE threat model=20
*following a discussion with Fernando Gont=20
	+redefined the Data Flow Diagram elements definitions=20

If time allows, your feedback would be very appreciated.

Best regards,
Marius Georgescu =E3=80=80(=E3=83=9E=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6=E3=82=B9 =
=E3=82=B8=E3=83=A7=E3=83=AB=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A7=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF)
Internet Engineering Laboratory=20
Nara Institute of Science and Technology=20
IPv6NET Project: http://www.ipv6net.ro/




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">Dear OPSEC Members,</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">Following the presentation in =
SAAG from IETF94 (<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-saag-3.pdf" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-saag-3.pdf=
</a>), I've written the following draft attempting to describe a threat =
model for IPv6 transition technologies.</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">The draft is at its second =
iteration, and if possible I would like to discuss it in the next OPSEC =
session.&nbsp;</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-georgescu-opsec-ipv6-trans-tech-=
threat-model-01" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-georgescu-opsec-ipv6-trans-te=
ch-threat-model-01</a></div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" =
class=3D"">As an overview of the changes:</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">*following Joel Jaeggli=E2=80=99s=
 comment&nbsp;</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>+added a =
reference to the STRIDE threat model&nbsp;</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">*following a discussion with =
Fernando Gont&nbsp;</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>+redefined the Data Flow Diagram elements =
definitions&nbsp;</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">If time =
allows, your feedback would be very appreciated.</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">Best regards,</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">Marius Georgescu =
=E3=80=80(=E3=83=9E=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6=E3=82=B9 =
=E3=82=B8=E3=83=A7=E3=83=AB=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A7=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF)</div><div=
 apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">Internet Engineering =
Laboratory&nbsp;</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">Nara =
Institute of Science and Technology&nbsp;</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">IPv6NET Project: <a =
href=3D"http://www.ipv6net.ro/" =
class=3D"">http://www.ipv6net.ro/</a></div></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=

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