From nobody Tue Jul 14 02:53:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37B33A0895; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 02:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Edg4MD-yuwcS; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 02:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf30.google.com (mail-qv1-xf30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD5C03A0896; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 02:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf30.google.com with SMTP id m8so7158165qvk.7; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 02:53:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FC/gpntjiO05mwWh4cY/uT7lj+ipHRmqrZpzvG3BF7Q=; b=p1n1KasS17gQ1q74DytKkFhu6g9bnW2gBnd3gPf/b/F80NRsp/utC2M6z04ReiAfXB nPjfshODwDWtKjIqFUSnrQawT9u7R5nAmdQGCiWPn53NlxQ7BIQZmHOiIMDDNf8BEIzl mf5ThTqdEvOpXX5w3OBzU6RuAThCAwLuZzz/MgQr1mpIP/NaGsXy9Sz/c4t+ZmR7EEqx Xulh05RbRLymmo52RDWYh/iJvIUmxmnZ3muyJAMRK+pTYUapVTFqrDuM3JwAUr12J/Eg 5tf9alAjyd7+JsqvCSXUly46QsXjmspbU/xTZ5AMvWp6+DhF0pVDkVzwlfbnplpfLObt 9Xlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FC/gpntjiO05mwWh4cY/uT7lj+ipHRmqrZpzvG3BF7Q=; b=F/MBud9xcsecHGXxJg0TAzZmfuBRiXgOLycr96PPj92u8+AtSn0PZwCLqxAwj/D8HQ Py/ScUtfk3TBUpwnJCZcbP34UogpCFSzZVm73PWuYxj73yp8SonmXxGsi78DUpZT1BwE Jm7JDY4ZZrcASG4AAneKLLjFi/kWRx0JGcvFf6lGtwvgwARin1R8qf0Sez4+4XRo0tQF uWZq6sFbLDG5Iq4WMDS2Bk2cyThmCEBIO0+rW/ia1MrNRX/Y+M+qaD+4e3uCBTv9HKR7 WQP2yT71V43zlMykRjO8SKv9rwRRfcSHNkTOBUodEvm+OO0TrHSnjtzc+oSf2Rwj8Yeg 1Y1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530jkcmVR/Q4Y5uoASFANtgD711estBlHikbfy6sXtOVv13zSZ1V MJ5nh2ZU5/EZPJtK24icxWbMhIthtDgMMb4VtrZg6A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHry+mCDh+gIe5WpuglcvcLvjDYf3aUSlqzDTzvNpd8dpCNdpzSIRqPJnm4W7pM/07CYmZ3REdk8PARRG60qg= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4106:: with SMTP id i6mr3508859qvp.191.1594720407522; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 02:53:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 19:53:16 +1000 Message-ID: To: opsec WG Cc: OpSec Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] Fwd: OPS ADs Hours X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 09:53:30 -0000 Dear OpSec participants, Please find the joint message from our Ops Area Directors, Rob Wilton and Warren Kumari. --- Warren and I appreciate that the current COVID situation is tricky for everyone. Added to that, I am also a new AD and many of you may not know me. Normally at the IETF meetings you have the opportunity to find us during the week if you have anything informal to discuss, but in the current climate that isn't so easy. Hence, if you have something that you would like to discuss with Warren and I, then we will happily schedule OPS ADs Hours, possibly during the scheduled IETF 108 week, or at another time if that isn't practical. We will only schedule based on any requests that we receive by the end of next week (Friday 17th July, 23:59 UTC). Please reply directly back to Warren and I, copying ops-ads, if you have something that you wish to discuss with us at this time. Regards, Rob (and Warren) --- -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Sun Jul 19 10:35:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D303A0400; Sun, 19 Jul 2020 10:35:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=ULby5BBA; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=j0yv9EEv Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D3fjbE_Ioipv; 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Sun, 19 Jul 2020 17:34:54 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: OPSEC CC: "tls@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AdZd8qs4MVhjKcpfSaSC3eC5PK0rEQ== Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 17:34:54 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-07-19T17:34:52Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=6d9a4c40-c774-4c89-93a4-188dc15ebbfd; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ContentBits=2 dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.5.0.60 dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, = 2020. Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_DM6PR05MB634890A51C4AF3CB1A03DA0BAE7A0DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks,

 

This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp.

 

Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;    Ron

 


Juniper Business= Use Only

--_000_DM6PR05MB634890A51C4AF3CB1A03DA0BAE7A0DM6PR05MB6348namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 22 18:30:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23473A0AA5; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6nhkzGPhARJP; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59D7E3A096B; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id o22so3090525qtt.13; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:30:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=l2EySzjcrwnACDE6DPuJ03fR/RH2bxTzAOSiY2NZgGs=; b=GCzayiMIEqoX1O/ut53WPjqEXlBqqTko0W/2F635JPDa4duMKmVmFbKwv3YCaRcRd9 cIKxbyFLX6Na4o2CyPbBPNcBXmD5198U7EtI2UbziRGOrlaIP0YEueDx7SvuPVHFrEW2 W5gIwaYIgZIcOValvUqOer3DPiRGe8tOv5UxdFvX7H/3Whv8rRNCoxsl5FOaWGZQl1r+ e7EqSe0+IRMtUYMLNa/VJou8Rdn6q2ISTp/M0E0O2xpxzEBCdktViQFTB8vVOHWH93C6 QLcd6E2Ww+1hu6Ita4QrpBR20CHFTC1PoYygcFHvf0OUoJiehRhqw9xc8pGAU1jHCIZ4 7jgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=l2EySzjcrwnACDE6DPuJ03fR/RH2bxTzAOSiY2NZgGs=; b=tcgVPEYIKPnNj6PlytS7YXiC/U/rsslaRFZtRejF+lIbQeOLKRN54CzIjLYZMEm3fl im+b1DYf/LkDjV1vm162SzAGmu0BAMUScmKr0nEPoGbnuScAttagmW11Fe2AecoRfXRA QpXiyp19HePQ/byxu3It+ucSpffsPJ7ej4CXHRxFy2wPez1EzzQw+55QnYRjtjXl1UtH f0xSHWC6J3/g67Z1YeQx4LkBOJfmgvjTtcabXybkummLVABpgnDSTmQGr/ZOzGfZzdzI +7/AN5PFFUylnfqcv+GEP7oD3Iy73CcdxGJw8v8s8l/KzPqfxfk8r24Tmyg5hqjdUJ0t aV9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ryaxCor7m0lyRO4ok0N3vY+GG1+0BcJUzPn158ZkQBNYfurdB Aox5Hhw11+vN7aUzEN2ccXs61/BC1Zt1h5QuRSqN7E4D X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy0yLbuXADaAkf1rqo+gLxGjFBbfD60j2o4OCx1/TgR7DL43xR//T9y29AQlDba6FiMErgpR/ru02d481k7N5Y= X-Received: by 2002:aed:3b0e:: with SMTP id p14mr2152060qte.149.1595467820073; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:30:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:30:08 +1000 Message-ID: To: OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Cc: OpSec Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:30:23 -0000 One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and explicit support of the adoption. 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boundary="B_3678375399_848195937" --B_3678375399_848195937 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Draft gives a good baseline on TLS Proxies and what you should consider. I support the adoption. Tobias From: OPSEC on behalf of Ron Bonica Date: Sunday, 19. July 2020 at 19:35 To: OPSEC Cc: "tls@ietf.org" Subject: [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Folks, This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. Ron Juniper Business Use Only --B_3678375399_848195937 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

The Draft gives a good baseline on TLS Proxies and what you should co= nsider.

I support the adoption.

 <= /o:p>

Tobias

 

Fro= m: OPSEC <opsec-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ie= tf.org>
Date: Sunday, 19. July 2020 at 19:35
To: OPSE= C <opsec@ietf.org>
Cc: "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf= .org>
Subject: [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-= proxy-bp

 

Folks,

&= nbsp;

This email= begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp.

 

Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.

 

       &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            &nbs= p;     Ron

 

 

Juniper Bu= siness Use Only

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h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=YHD3xHNIVPAvA0hczbBVp+li7p1f+HTjn+bbyZGAP9ZMQ1GlQwRm7wP1YLReAQPHz htYvJNbZn1/outDvN6xHyQFBvxfXwHCHfzEJKjjLFQ62Od0owhRHmozfnWmCS7rZ+T QHL6Gz4LUMKzxmgiR5EospI7X96sbG3ivuqcfSFE= To: Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Cc: OpSec Chairs References: From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 14:07:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --FAvIFgt9v20FrpiNfH66umCY9DgaRATDa Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ooxA1C7HURYfWxvPydOq9Ot2frNU8BbJk"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Cc: OpSec Chairs Message-ID: Subject: Re: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp References: In-Reply-To: --ooxA1C7HURYfWxvPydOq9Ot2frNU8BbJk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F50784C062484BF407BF9C04" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F50784C062484BF407BF9C04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls, I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd need to be to be adopted. Send to ISE. S. On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published. >=20 > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp= =2E >> >> >> >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSEC mailing list >> OPSEC@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >=20 --------------F50784C062484BF407BF9C04 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- 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ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 339B43A0DD9; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LLE2K16-MBX03.mitll.ad.local (LLE2K16-MBX03.mitll.ad.local) by llmx2.ll.mit.edu (unknown) with ESMTPS id 06RCJjmh005835; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:19:45 -0400 From: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" To: Stephen Farrell , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" CC: OpSec Chairs Thread-Topic: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AdZd8qs4MVhjKcpfSaSC3eC5PK0rEQCv6iMAAH8Fd4AAWHLpgA== Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:19:44 +0000 Message-ID: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 x-originating-ip: [172.25.1.84] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3678682784_278884501" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-07-27_08:2020-07-27, 2020-07-27 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2006250000 definitions=main-2007270091 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:19:59 -0000 --B_3678682784_278884501 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a technology that = IETF should standardize. =EF=BB=BFOn 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell" wrote: I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls, I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd need to be to be adopted. Send to ISE. S. On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published. >=20 > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-= bp. >> >> >> >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSEC mailing list >> OPSEC@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >=20 --B_3678682784_278884501 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIUfQYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIUbjCCFGoCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0B 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AOAM530c5Pb8IikAlxESdvNPEgkSmX0GNkbCuZYQ7O9lpdBpUym2Q7Lh g7LmliQhnDMpz00DCiJ0jDzfgsk6fxR+tfc+DI3o/g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz5FA44jkZPisRTFGk/dKrUvxzlL2vACJneGZEh8b8drHgG35opZRyWoeP6RufBNS4qIvWk+y0fRDlvKjpYY28= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:c745:: with SMTP id x66mr15563588vkf.82.1595852829286; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:27:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> From: Ira McDonald Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:26:56 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" , Ira McDonald Cc: Stephen Farrell , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" , OpSec Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000000e5de05ab6b7194" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:27:12 -0000 --00000000000000e5de05ab6b7194 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support Stephen and Uri and oppose adoption. On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:20 AM Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL < uri@ll.mit.edu> wrote: > I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a technology tha= t > IETF should standardize. > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell" < > tls-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > > > I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit > in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls, > I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at > all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd > need to be to be adopted. > > Send to ISE. > > S. > > On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and > > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe > > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published. > > > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > > wrote: > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> > >> > >> This email begins a Call For Adoption on > draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. > >> > >> > >> > >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. > >> > >> > >> > >> Ro= n > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Juniper Business Use Only > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> OPSEC mailing list > >> OPSEC@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > > > > > > > -- > > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TLS mailing list > > TLS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --00000000000000e5de05ab6b7194 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support Stephen and Uri and oppose adop= tion.

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:20 AM Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MI= TLL <uri@ll.mit.edu> wrote:
=
I support Stephen a= nd oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a technology that IETF should standar= dize.


=EF=BB=BFOn 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell" &l= t;tls-bounces@iet= f.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls= ,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'= ;d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 need to be to be adopted.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Send to ISE.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 S.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear act= ive and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if = you believe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it = published.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Folks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-= opsec-tls-proxy-bp.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Juniper Business Use Only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> OPSEC mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> = OPSEC@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/opsec
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > TLS mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > TLS@ie= tf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tl= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LslCFQz0IlZVtCbU53jHnj95zcEKUHhiX" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:55:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --LslCFQz0IlZVtCbU53jHnj95zcEKUHhiX Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="OO90SFTheMH4rHAzrhg7XzeBLp8vqgZjk"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , Ira McDonald , "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" Cc: Jen Linkova , OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> --OO90SFTheMH4rHAzrhg7XzeBLp8vqgZjk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5FD8DC496B78C94C68D61B2C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5FD8DC496B78C94C68D61B2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rich, On 27/07/2020 13:37, Salz, Rich wrote: > Not adopting this seems to be ignoring reality.=20 That depends on the "this" though. This "this" seems to me to be very much ok with mitm'ing, while doing a little bit to recognise the downsides of mitm'ing. I'm not objecting to attempts to describe reality, but am rather arguing that achieving rough consensus on something starting from that "this" is not worth the effort, as we've I think seem demonstrated a couple of time recently. Cheers, S. > There are places > which use TLS intermediaries. 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LLE2K16-MBX03.mitll.ad.local (LLE2K16-MBX03.mitll.ad.local) by llmx3.ll.mit.edu (unknown) with ESMTPS id 06RDIAVJ035987; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:18:18 -0400 From: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Stephen Farrell , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" CC: OpSec Chairs Thread-Topic: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AQHWZBVpJXnfp71rHkOfsGQ2RTr97KkbaJqA Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:18:16 +0000 Message-ID: <845E6D98-DD1C-4FD7-AEF6-A262C10B35A8@ll.mit.edu> References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 x-originating-ip: [172.25.1.84] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3678686295_1733652896" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-07-27_08:2020-07-27, 2020-07-27 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2006250000 definitions=main-2007270097 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:18:28 -0000 --B_3678686295_1733652896 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Nancy, Understood. However, in this particular case, instead of "if you want to do= this, then do it that way, and I'll help you inter-operate" I prefer "if yo= u want to do this - you're on your own, don't seek a blessing or advice from= me". Regards, Uri =EF=BB=BFOn 7/27/20, 08:56, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" wr= ote: The document is not imposing any standards but rather provide guideline= s for those implementing TLS proxies; given that proxies will continue to e= xist I'm not sure why there is a belief that the IETF should ignore this. Warm regards, Nancy On 7/27/20, 5:20 AM, "OPSEC on behalf of Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL= " wrote: I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a technolo= gy that IETF should standardize. On 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell" wrote: I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls, I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd need to be to be adopted. Send to ISE. S. On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active a= nd > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you b= elieve > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it publi= shed. >=20 > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tl= s-proxy-bp. >> >> >> >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. >> >> >> >> = Ron >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSEC mailing list >> OPSEC@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >=20 --B_3678686295_1733652896 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIUfQYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIUbjCCFGoCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0B 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SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HpCDWLkZAZkM for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF0343A19F4 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id a15so14892758wrh.10 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:30:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; 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X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533GHvs7CCMh/j/RZ5+EPdNW0Wq3W+93fQNXxzqbZgi44X1LN07k VkVU1wEHlA67LQIEyzh7tHb7DV0sl37uTMRvYexLEw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyF5mix/bZQbRzs9XFCxpzTfqZOFlkE+JbKCzm1XXzWOxC26iQjlDdLfS7PrufC3DxiEEaMyg2811JPGLTvsjk= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:43c4:: with SMTP id v4mr19088055wrr.426.1595856647086; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 06:30:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> From: Ben Schwartz Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 09:30:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" Cc: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" , Stephen Farrell , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" , OpSec Chairs Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000964cb705ab6c54b8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:30:53 -0000 --000000000000964cb705ab6c54b8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000090436705ab6c543b" --00000000000090436705ab6c543b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm concerned about this work happening outside the TLS working group. For example, the question of proper handling of TLS extensions is not addressed at all in this draft, and has significant security and functionality implications. There are various other tricky protocol issues (e.g. version negotiation, TLS 1.3 record padding, TLS 1.3 0-RTT vs. TLS 1.2 False Start, round-trip deadlock when buffers fill, ticket (non-)reuse, client certificate linkability pre-TLS-1.3, implications of SAN scope of synthesized certificates) that could arise and are going to be difficult to get right in any other WG. The title "TLS Proxy Best Practice" implies that it is possible to proxy TLS correctly, and that this document is the main source for how to do it. I think the TLS WG is the right place to make those judgments. For the OpSec group, I think a more appropriate draft would be something like "TLS Interception Pitfalls", documenting the operational experience on failure modes of TLS interception. On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote: > The document is not imposing any standards but rather provide guidelines > for those implementing TLS proxies; given that proxies will continue to > exist I'm not sure why there is a belief that the IETF should ignore this= . > > Warm regards, Nancy > > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/27/20, 5:20 AM, "OPSEC on behalf of Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 = - MITLL" < > opsec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of uri@ll.mit.edu> wrote: > > I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a technology > that IETF should standardize. > > > On 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell" < > tls-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > > > I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit > in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls, > I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at > all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd > need to be to be adopted. > > Send to ISE. > > S. > > On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and > > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you > believe > > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it > published. > > > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > > wrote: > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> > >> > >> This email begins a Call For Adoption on > draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. > >> > >> > >> > >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ron > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Juniper Business Use Only > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> OPSEC mailing list > >> OPSEC@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > > > > > > > -- > > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TLS mailing list > > TLS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --00000000000090436705ab6c543b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm concerned about this work happeni= ng outside the TLS working group.=C2=A0 For example, the question of proper= handling of TLS extensions is not addressed at all in this draft, and has = significant security and functionality implications.=C2=A0 There are variou= s other tricky protocol issues (e.g. version negotiation, TLS 1.3 record pa= dding, TLS 1.3 0-RTT vs. TLS 1.2 False Start, round-trip deadlock when buff= ers fill, ticket (non-)reuse, client certificate linkability pre-TLS-1.3, i= mplications of SAN scope of synthesized certificates) that could arise and = are going to be difficult to get right in any other WG.

= The title "TLS Proxy Best Practice" implies that it is possible t= o proxy TLS correctly, and that this document is the main source for how to= do it.=C2=A0 I think the TLS WG is the right place to make those judgments= .=C2=A0 For the OpSec group, I think a more=C2=A0appropriate draft would=C2= =A0be something like "TLS Interception Pitfalls", documenting the= operational experience on failure modes of TLS interception.
On Mon, = Jul 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> w= rote:
The docume= nt is not imposing any standards but rather provide guidelines for those im= plementing TLS proxies;=C2=A0 given that proxies will continue to exist I&#= 39;m not sure why there is a belief that the IETF should ignore this.

Warm regards, Nancy

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/27/20, 5:20 AM, "OPSEC on behalf of Blumenthal, Uri - 05= 53 - MITLL" <opsec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of uri@ll.mit.edu> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a te= chnology that IETF should standardize.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell&quo= t; <tls-bounce= s@ietf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I oppose adoption. While there could be some mi= nor benefit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mi= tm'ing tls,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced do= cument is at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all worthwhile. The current draft is too far fr= om what it'd
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 need to be to be adopted.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Send to ISE.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > One thing to add here: the chairs would li= ke to hear active and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > explicit support of the adoption. So pleas= e speak up if you believe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the draft is useful and the WG shall work = on getting it published.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Folks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> This email begins a Call For Adoption = on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Juniper Business Use Only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> ______________________________________= _________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> OPSEC mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> OPSEC@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/opsec
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > __________________________________________= _____
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > TLS mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > TLS@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/tls
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >


_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
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v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9ITzvljWIStBLwJHX9a3MQcJtkbNyykjDFLgKhZBY4o=; b=n5l6ZwwaNSOEmRVAHPd6agzakHFLLRPP2uuvSAKyO9OzR98E9tV5t/QhrUtbn/tcCh 40e74e8ff7JnVApt3V+mNC1Onmh7ciERjVfcesvgHntbK3V8E4IJNBqTI7PPLp88NGO4 dBd/ykd54nHP0N+OHHigzc4WgZaNCUGIx0dX2T8DlH7eFGEiGxojweXgAlEzsN4Je9O8 GLg/CV3+/MFM29Q/TeyxlLh6sSH5dfSneXOMn0hPw/rMjbWvVSBDYz5BvDebbO9vkSvv CXLrZkLHF2BxLozLtDUzMdJ0aNg4TbMxVrXH+CPzX82PsIPn0Lw9nRyx0hD3oweT0uAl ysUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9ITzvljWIStBLwJHX9a3MQcJtkbNyykjDFLgKhZBY4o=; b=BsZpA7fpijj1B3CzZo/25brV3z2dgW80yd9PD6LqEl8BtcxuuJCj6GSWGJUvRw26Zm EPNBVQIDSthY3tBflZEI+FX4LX/nmK4KkC3up7G3o2IZxJcd8A0taMG7mHImABEWLqt0 Bb5ZsbMmVEY9UbQRQVujGyI2pdf4hJotPMg8RpgChLQTjCwgZQ3IWagY0sg8ODzDN3TL 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opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:12:11 -0000 --0000000000005f511d05ab6ce8fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As currently written, this draft has multiple problems. Section 4 decides not to repeat the Protocol Invariants described in section 9.3 of RFC 8446. However, further sections are written assuming that a proxy acts in a way contrary to those Protocol Invariants. One such example is section 4.2 in this draft. It describes how a proxy might generate its list of cipher suites by modifying the client's list. A proxy that copies the cipher suites from the client-initiated ClientHello into its own ClientHello is violating the 1st and 3rd points of the TLS 1.3 Protocol Invariants. For a best practices document, I think it would be reasonable to reiterate the Protocol Invariants. In addition to reiterating the Protocol Invariants, it should also summarize the advice from the cited papers SECURITY_IMPACT and APPLIANCE_ANALYSIS. One of the problems pointed out by those papers is that TLS proxies will make connections to a server that presents a certificate the client wouldn't accept, but because of the proxy, the client isn't aware of the certificate issues. I don't see this issue addressed at all in the draft. (A similar issue with the server selecting a weak cipher suite is possibly implied by section 4.2, but it is not spelled out well.) If this draft is adopted, it needs to say the following things, which it currently doesn't. - When a TLS proxy generates its ClientHello, it should be created independently from the client-initiated ClientHello. The proxy MAY choose to omit fields from its ClientHello based on the client-initiated ClientHello, but it MUST NOT add fields to its ClientHello based on the client-initiated ClientHello. This is effectively a restatement of the 1st (a client MUST support all parameters it sends) and 3rd (it MUST generate its own ClientHello containing only parameters it understands) points of the TLS 1.3 Protocol Invariants. - If a proxy chooses to conditionally proxy TLS connections and needs more information than what is contained in the client-initiated ClientHello, then the only way to make that decision is to send its own ClientHello to the server the client is connecting to and use information observed on that connection to make the decision to proxy the pending connection. - If a proxy chooses to not proxy some TLS connections, the proxy will fail open. The only way to avoid failing open is to proxy all connections. On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 6:31 AM Ben Schwartz wrote: > I'm concerned about this work happening outside the TLS working group. > For example, the question of proper handling of TLS extensions is not > addressed at all in this draft, and has significant security and > functionality implications. There are various other tricky protocol issu= es > (e.g. version negotiation, TLS 1.3 record padding, TLS 1.3 0-RTT vs. TLS > 1.2 False Start, round-trip deadlock when buffers fill, ticket (non-)reus= e, > client certificate linkability pre-TLS-1.3, implications of SAN scope of > synthesized certificates) that could arise and are going to be difficult = to > get right in any other WG. > > The title "TLS Proxy Best Practice" implies that it is possible to proxy > TLS correctly, and that this document is the main source for how to do it= . > I think the TLS WG is the right place to make those judgments.. For the > OpSec group, I think a more appropriate draft would be something like "TL= S > Interception Pitfalls", documenting the operational experience on failure > modes of TLS interception. > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> The document is not imposing any standards but rather provide guidelines >> for those implementing TLS proxies; given that proxies will continue to >> exist I'm not sure why there is a belief that the IETF should ignore thi= s. >> >> Warm regards, Nancy >> >> =EF=BB=BFOn 7/27/20, 5:20 AM, "OPSEC on behalf of Blumenthal, Uri - 0553= - MITLL" >> wrote: >> >> I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a technolog= y >> that IETF should standardize. >> >> >> On 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell" < >> tls-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: >> >> >> I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit >> in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls, >> I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at >> all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd >> need to be to be adopted. >> >> Send to ISE. >> >> S. >> >> On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote: >> > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active an= d >> > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you >> believe >> > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it >> published. >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This email begins a Call For Adoption on >> draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> OPSEC mailing list >> >> OPSEC@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > TLS mailing list >> > TLS@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --0000000000005f511d05ab6ce8fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As currently written, this draft has multiple problems.
Section 4 decides not to repeat the Protocol Invariants de= scribed in section 9.3 of RFC 8446. However, further sections are written a= ssuming that a proxy acts in a way contrary to those Protocol Invariants. O= ne such example is section 4.2 in this draft. It describes how a proxy migh= t generate its list of cipher suites by modifying the client's list. A = proxy that copies the cipher suites from the client-initiated ClientHello i= nto its own ClientHello is violating the 1st and 3rd points of the TLS 1.3 = Protocol Invariants. For a best practices document, I think it would be rea= sonable to reiterate the Protocol Invariants.

In a= ddition to reiterating the Protocol Invariants, it should also summarize th= e advice from the cited papers SECURITY_IMPACT and APPLIANCE_ANALYSIS. One = of the problems pointed out by those papers is that TLS proxies will make c= onnections to a server that presents a certificate the client wouldn't = accept, but because of the proxy, the client isn't aware of the certifi= cate issues. I don't see this issue addressed at all in the draft. (A s= imilar issue with the server selecting a weak cipher suite is possibly impl= ied by section 4.2, but it is not spelled out well.)

If this draft is adopted, it needs to say the following things, which it= currently doesn't.

- When a TLS proxy generat= es its ClientHello, it should be created independently from the client-init= iated ClientHello. The proxy MAY choose to omit fields from its ClientHello= based on the client-initiated ClientHello, but it MUST NOT add fields to i= ts ClientHello based on the client-initiated ClientHello. This is effective= ly a restatement of the 1st (a client MUST support all parameters it sends)= and 3rd (it MUST generate its own ClientHello containing only parameters i= t understands) points of the TLS 1.3 Protocol Invariants.

- If a proxy chooses to conditionally proxy TLS connections and nee= ds more information than what is contained in the client-initiated ClientHe= llo, then the only way to make that decision is to send its own ClientHello= to the server the client is connecting to and use information observed on = that connection to make the decision to proxy the pending connection.
=

- If a proxy chooses to not proxy some TLS connections,= the proxy will fail open. The only way to avoid failing open is to proxy a= ll connections.

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 6:31 AM Ben Schwartz <bemas= c=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.= org> wrote:
I'm concerned about this work happ= ening outside the TLS working group.=C2=A0 For example, the question of pro= per handling of TLS extensions is not addressed at all in this draft, and h= as significant security and functionality implications.=C2=A0 There are var= ious other tricky protocol issues (e.g. version negotiation, TLS 1.3 record= padding, TLS 1.3 0-RTT vs. TLS 1.2 False Start, round-trip deadlock when b= uffers fill, ticket (non-)reuse, client certificate linkability pre-TLS-1.3= , implications of SAN scope of synthesized certificates) that could arise a= nd are going to be difficult to get right in any other WG.

The title "TLS Proxy Best Practice" implies that it is possibl= e to proxy TLS correctly, and that this document is the main source for how= to do it.=C2=A0 I think the TLS WG is the right place to make those judgme= nts..=C2=A0 For the OpSec group, I think a more=C2=A0appropriate draft woul= d=C2=A0be something like "TLS Interception Pitfalls", documenting= the operational experience on failure modes of TLS interception.

On M= on, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dma= rc.ietf.org> wrote:
The document is not imposing any standards but rather provide gu= idelines for those implementing TLS proxies;=C2=A0 given that proxies will = continue to exist I'm not sure why there is a belief that the IETF shou= ld ignore this.

Warm regards, Nancy

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/27/20, 5:20 AM, "OPSEC on behalf of Blumenthal, Uri - 05= 53 - MITLL" <opsec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of uri@ll.mit.edu> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a te= chnology that IETF should standardize.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell&quo= t; <tls-bounce= s@ietf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I oppose adoption. While there could be some mi= nor benefit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mi= tm'ing tls,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced do= cument is at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all worthwhile. The current draft is too far fr= om what it'd
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 need to be to be adopted.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Send to ISE.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > One thing to add here: the chairs would li= ke to hear active and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > explicit support of the adoption. So pleas= e speak up if you believe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the draft is useful and the WG shall work = on getting it published.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Folks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> This email begins a Call For Adoption = on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Juniper Business Use Only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> ______________________________________= _________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> OPSEC mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> OPSEC@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/opsec
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > __________________________________________= _____
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > TLS mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > TLS@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/tls
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >


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--0000000000005f511d05ab6ce8fc-- From nobody Mon Jul 27 07:21:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719323A19C5; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XsanfMt5ImOO; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD6C93A19B0; 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Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:21:27 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 06RE5lYE005447; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:21:25 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 32gg2y6r0v-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:21:25 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:21:24 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:21:25 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Stephen Farrell , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" CC: OpSec Chairs Thread-Topic: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AdZd8qs4MVhjKcpfSaSC3eC5PK0rEQCv6iMAAH8Fd4AAWHLpgAAJopcAAADKqAD//86UgA== Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:21:24 +0000 Message-ID: <37F64FB8-C318-4EC4-A754-587BDEBE6F21@akamai.com> References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> <845E6D98-DD1C-4FD7-AEF6-A262C10B35A8@ll.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <845E6D98-DD1C-4FD7-AEF6-A262C10B35A8@ll.mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.43.31] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-07-27_08:2020-07-27, 2020-07-27 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=692 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2007270103 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-07-27_08:2020-07-27, 2020-07-27 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=658 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2007270103 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:21:35 -0000 PiAgICBVbmRlcnN0b29kLiBIb3dldmVyLCBpbiB0aGlzIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgY2FzZSwgaW5zdGVh ZCBvZiAiaWYgeW91IHdhbnQgdG8gZG8gdGhpcywgdGhlbiBkbyBpdCB0aGF0IHdheSwgYW5kIEkn bGwgaGVscCB5b3UgaW50ZXItb3BlcmF0ZSIgSSBwcmVmZXIgImlmIHlvdSB3YW50IHRvIGRvIHRo aXMgLSB5b3UncmUgb24geW91ciBvd24sIGRvbid0IHNlZWsgYSBibGVzc2luZyBvciBhZHZpY2Ug ZnJvbSBtZSIuDQoNClNvIHlvdSBkb24ndCBmZWVsIHRoYXQgY29tbXVuaXR5IGlzIHdlbGNvbWUg aGVyZSBhdCB0aGUgSUVURiwgb3IgdGhhdCB5b3Ugd29uJ3QgcGVyc29uYWxseSBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0 ZT8NCg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Jul 27 07:32:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 685613A1A24; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfMm44-NSXli; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from llmx2.ll.mit.edu (LLMX2.LL.MIT.EDU [129.55.12.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A1AE3A1C6E; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 07:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LLE2K16-MBX02.mitll.ad.local (LLE2K16-MBX02.mitll.ad.local) by llmx2.ll.mit.edu (unknown) with ESMTPS id 06REUuU5019314; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:31:01 -0400 From: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" To: "Salz, Rich" , Stephen Farrell , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" CC: OpSec Chairs Thread-Topic: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AQHWZCFRNYnuMxdZY0275+lveJc/fqkbfNSA Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:30:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> <845E6D98-DD1C-4FD7-AEF6-A262C10B35A8@ll.mit.edu> <37F64FB8-C318-4EC4-A754-587BDEBE6F21@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <37F64FB8-C318-4EC4-A754-587BDEBE6F21@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 x-originating-ip: [172.25.1.85] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3678690659_1181152928" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-07-27_08:2020-07-27, 2020-07-27 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2006250000 definitions=main-2007270103 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 14:32:50 -0000 --B_3678690659_1181152928 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable As my personal opinion - both. =EF=BB=BFOn 7/27/20, 10:22, "TLS on behalf of Salz, Rich" wrote: > Understood. However, in this particular case, instead of "if you w= ant to do this, then do it that way, and I'll help you inter-operate" I pref= er "if you want to do this - you're on your own, don't seek a blessing or ad= vice from me". So you don't feel that community is welcome here at the IETF, or that y= ou won't personally participate? _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls --B_3678690659_1181152928 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIUfQYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIUbjCCFGoCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0B BwGgghJDMIIE8zCCA9ugAwIBAgITWQAEsOl/1qhyyOFZzgAAAASw6TANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsF ADBRMQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEfMB0GA1UECgwWTUlUIExpbmNvbG4gTGFib3JhdG9yeTEMMAoG A1UECwwDUEtJMRMwEQYDVQQDDApNSVRMTCBDQS01MB4XDTIwMDIxMjE2NTAyM1oXDTI1MDIx MDE2NTAyM1owYTELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxHzAdBgNVBAoTFk1JVCBMaW5jb2xuIExhYm9yYXRv cnkxDzANBgNVBAsTBlBlb3BsZTEgMB4GA1UEAxMXQmx1bWVudGhhbC5VcmkuNTAwMTA1ODQw ggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQCmeoHpDu+bGes6qLPIUd2r7EQaBwYt V254WjhvNdMry3tev5DNk7FprxZhspY0dxRoDvIUrfJ3saAcbxrVc9HnzdNTl57rtF2RiRLM 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(1024-bit key) header.d=nerd.ninja Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ZSj44J968Kh; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender4-of-o56.zoho.com (sender4-of-o56.zoho.com [136.143.188.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4F8E3A0B1B; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 12:10:10 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1595877006; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=S7LtaFbemdYLS80yoI9wtLwHpaixLjmosJqzyH/QPYx+SjvWFjKp6DAJvF9VaXwXX2kwF19/rDLrkeOX8OlmzyDNggsCBjxa36Z7uFb1qU9z2YyUVkYfnnCnJN4/RXcrp+/TdPVbAgOZ3Uv2zvG5SjgZllVuanxnm7dPFy+jYqA= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1595877006; h=Content-Type:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=hBjSPHu6BCu9ENbjTPpscKRBYl7pt1TPKb5A9H0SCHo=; 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<54986B60-E12B-4E83-AD7B-FC8F2B6F372B@nerd.ninja> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_16E42D4D-DD46-4B60-99FD-9472F92F1F57" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 15:09:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" , OpSec Chairs To: Ben Schwartz References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-ZohoMailClient: External Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:10:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_16E42D4D-DD46-4B60-99FD-9472F92F1F57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 As co-author I support adoption of the draft and appreciate the = feedback. The authors agreed at the time that the OPSEC WG charter would better = match our intention of documenting the BCP for TLS proxies given that = the TLS WG charter places more of an emphasis on the TLS protocol. = Having said that, we do also agree that the TLS WG should be involved. = The recommendation from the TLS WG chairs was to continue in OPSEC and = to cc the TLS WG. --Roelof > On Jul 27, 2020, at 9:30 AM, Ben Schwartz = wrote: >=20 > I'm concerned about this work happening outside the TLS working group. = For example, the question of proper handling of TLS extensions is not = addressed at all in this draft, and has significant security and = functionality implications. There are various other tricky protocol = issues (e.g. version negotiation, TLS 1.3 record padding, TLS 1.3 0-RTT = vs. TLS 1.2 False Start, round-trip deadlock when buffers fill, ticket = (non-)reuse, client certificate linkability pre-TLS-1.3, implications of = SAN scope of synthesized certificates) that could arise and are going to = be difficult to get right in any other WG. >=20 > The title "TLS Proxy Best Practice" implies that it is possible to = proxy TLS correctly, and that this document is the main source for how = to do it. I think the TLS WG is the right place to make those = judgments.. For the OpSec group, I think a more appropriate draft would = be something like "TLS Interception Pitfalls", documenting the = operational experience on failure modes of TLS interception. >=20 > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) = > wrote: > The document is not imposing any standards but rather provide = guidelines for those implementing TLS proxies; given that proxies will = continue to exist I'm not sure why there is a belief that the IETF = should ignore this. >=20 > Warm regards, Nancy >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/27/20, 5:20 AM, "OPSEC on behalf of Blumenthal, Uri - = 0553 - MITLL" on = behalf of uri@ll.mit.edu > wrote: >=20 > I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a = technology that IETF should standardize. >=20 >=20 > On 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell" = on behalf of = stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > wrote: >=20 >=20 > I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit > in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls, > I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at > all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd > need to be to be adopted. >=20 > Send to ISE. >=20 > S. >=20 > On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active = and > > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you = believe > > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it = published. > >=20 > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > > > wrote: > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> > >> > >> This email begins a Call For Adoption on = draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. > >> > >> > >> > >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org = by August 3, 2020. > >> > >> > >> > >> = Ron > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Juniper Business Use Only > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> OPSEC mailing list > >> OPSEC@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec = > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -- > > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > TLS mailing list > > TLS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls = > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls = > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls --Apple-Mail=_16E42D4D-DD46-4B60-99FD-9472F92F1F57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 As = co-author I support adoption of the draft and appreciate the = feedback.

The = authors agreed at the time that the OPSEC WG charter would better match = our intention of documenting the BCP for TLS proxies given that the TLS = WG charter places more of an emphasis on the TLS protocol.  Having = said that, we do also agree that the TLS WG should be involved. =  The recommendation from the TLS WG chairs was to continue in OPSEC = and to cc the TLS WG.

--Roelof


On Jul = 27, 2020, at 9:30 AM, Ben Schwartz <bemasc=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

I'm concerned about this work = happening outside the TLS working group.  For example, the question = of proper handling of TLS extensions is not addressed at all in this = draft, and has significant security and functionality = implications.  There are various other tricky protocol issues (e.g. = version negotiation, TLS 1.3 record padding, TLS 1.3 0-RTT vs. TLS 1.2 = False Start, round-trip deadlock when buffers fill, ticket (non-)reuse, = client certificate linkability pre-TLS-1.3, implications of SAN scope of = synthesized certificates) that could arise and are going to be difficult = to get right in any other WG.

The title "TLS Proxy Best Practice" implies that it is = possible to proxy TLS correctly, and that this document is the main = source for how to do it.  I think the TLS WG is the right place to = make those judgments..  For the OpSec group, I think a = more appropriate draft would be something like "TLS = Interception Pitfalls", documenting the operational experience on = failure modes of TLS interception.

On Mon, Jul = 27, 2020 at 8:57 AM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
The document is not imposing any = standards but rather provide guidelines for those implementing TLS = proxies;  given that proxies will continue to exist I'm not sure = why there is a belief that the IETF should ignore this.

Warm regards, Nancy

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/27/20, 5:20 AM, "OPSEC on behalf of Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 = - MITLL" <opsec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of uri@ll.mit.edu> wrote:

    I support Stephen and oppose adoption. IMHO, this is not a = technology that IETF should standardize.


    On 7/25/20, 10:07, "TLS on behalf of Stephen Farrell" = <tls-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


        I oppose adoption. While there could be some = minor benefit
        in documenting the uses and abuses seen when = mitm'ing tls,
        I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced = document is at
        all worthwhile. The current draft is too far = from what it'd
        need to be to be adopted.

        Send to ISE.

        S.

        On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote:
        > One thing to add here: the chairs would = like to hear active and
        > explicit support of the adoption. So = please speak up if you believe
        > the draft is useful and the WG shall = work on getting it published.
        >
        > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron = Bonica
        > <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
        >>
        >> Folks,
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> This email begins a Call For = Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>          =                     =                     =                Ron
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Juniper Business Use Only
        >>
        >> = _______________________________________________
        >> OPSEC mailing list
        >> OPSEC@ietf.org
        >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
        >
        > = _______________________________________________
        > TLS mailing list
        > TLS@ietf.org
        > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
        >


_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
_______________________________________________
TLS = mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls

= --Apple-Mail=_16E42D4D-DD46-4B60-99FD-9472F92F1F57-- From nobody Mon Jul 27 13:32:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07AE3A0BB6; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:32:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nerd.ninja Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zsm0vWtuV9Dc; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender4-of-o56.zoho.com (sender4-of-o56.zoho.com [136.143.188.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AE743A0BAE; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:32:23 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1595881942; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=Kx6nsdIXGp39ohLm0KdXnZo4M6WXhEEoNYFP9r3txzXq37qEsa8/h/BOb0GAC69TvLXIFKwOPT+2AEZ7BA83qOadgpYleMcrfuzZ2XbcMuqMxejmpkOS8K4m2JJiD0kJQ6eTrdznKnntGGtlJTDVAFaTCOSHT3HQPSamqIeJiLU= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1595881942; h=Content-Type:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=0BSEdOkrLoulAegP1zOnaqO+oja5CjqiTy3ulevd3+U=; b=VwyvgOXx55xKHiT4O347XqXlgI1PrmKIgspE9GJEBuIoyEC8xwVFTbDRJ5+dw48zRD1hXfyeSKlkHJrO2k/85aSAyehumvnfS7GwkuVN/XbVnr2QUICrNHWT8Q8rG6J5D236cP9cXIwZD28m24aIcsar6e2//D9dzxA54Cri1fc= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=nerd.ninja; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=r@nerd.ninja; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1595881942; s=zoho; d=nerd.ninja; i=r@nerd.ninja; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; bh=0BSEdOkrLoulAegP1zOnaqO+oja5CjqiTy3ulevd3+U=; b=eKYLZ2W1+9ro8f99SlrwxktUNfdIKCqyhdGvUDnu0gfU3N15pOW1dUvgaEWmzb84 I9u2oIGh9ykAHPMM4iRxw+iSLus90XXg76wfVsv5F5veGKjNivBWpW9eOxK05E/ZQNG m2RuZFANA3YashJ1YINvoKL4VINsLwEy1sRaVf4c= Received: from roelofs-mbp.lan (dynamic-acs-24-112-241-136.zoominternet.net [24.112.241.136]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1595881937101735.0950950715875; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:32:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Roelof duToit Message-Id: <0DC7AEF1-9DAA-42B2-9DF7-E8DD4C081020@nerd.ninja> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_147F458E-1F50-4EB8-B6FA-7DAA36986172" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:32:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Nick Harper , Ben Schwartz , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , OpSec Chairs , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" To: Andrei Popov References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-ZohoMailClient: External Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [EXTERNAL] Re: [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 20:32:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_147F458E-1F50-4EB8-B6FA-7DAA36986172 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thank you Andrei. > The document does not describe alternatives to MITM proxies. The [SECURITY_IMPACT] paper mentions alternatives, and we could = certainly include a high-level summary of some of those even though our = intention was to document the BCP for TLS proxies where the reader is = considering a TLS proxy network function. If we do include an expanded = section on alternatives then it should also reference the capabilities = and limitations of endpoint-only security solutions (reference: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-taddei-smart-cless-introductio= n-03 = ) > Section 4.1.2 =E2=80=9CInbound provisioning=E2=80=9D does not discuss = security and operational issues around server key sharing with the = proxy. No real discussion of short-lived creds and =E2=80=9Ckeyless=E2=80=9D= scenarios. Sections 4.1 and 4.12 provide guidelines and leaves the implementation = up to the developer. That is not to say that we cannot be more specific = about key sharing and key storage for inbound solutions. We could = certainly mention draft-ietf-tls-subcerts as well. > Section 4.2 =E2=80=9CMaintain security posture and limit = modifications=E2=80=9D seems to recommend modifications to the = ClientHello, rather than having the proxy generate a new ClientHello. = Proxies sending ClientHellos they did not generate are a common cause of = interop issues. That section needs more clarification. We are most certainly not = proposing that TLS proxies should forward the original ClientHello and = are aware of the risks - especially when RSA key exchange is used. The = intention of section 4.2 is for the TLS proxy to base certain attributes = of the generated ClientHello on what was advertised by the client, with = the goal of maintaining the security posture. > Section 4.2 also explicitly allows completely insecure configurations: > =E2=80=9CTLS proxy stacks MAY provide user configurable options, = such as an > option to accept self-signed server certificates, an option to let > the handshake continue with expired but otherwise valid server > certificates, etc.=E2=80=9D That paragraph needs examples. One such example is where = device-to-device communication in the enterprise traverses the TLS proxy = and where said devices must be excluded from further inspection based on = a combination of policy attributes - it is not always practical to = update the devices. --Apple-Mail=_147F458E-1F50-4EB8-B6FA-7DAA36986172 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thank= you Andrei.

  • The document does not describe alternatives to MITM = proxies.

The [SECURITY_IMPACT] paper mentions alternatives, = and we could certainly include a high-level summary of some of those = even though our intention was to document the BCP for TLS proxies where = the reader is considering a TLS proxy network function.   If we do = include an expanded section on alternatives then it should also = reference the capabilities and limitations of endpoint-only security = solutions (reference: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-taddei-smart-cless-= introduction-03)

  • Section 4.1.2 = =E2=80=9CInbound provisioning=E2=80=9D does not discuss security and = operational issues around server key sharing with the proxy. No real = discussion of short-lived creds and =E2=80=9Ckeyless=E2=80=9D = scenarios.

Sections 4.1 and 4.12 provide guidelines and = leaves the implementation up to the developer.  That is not to say = that we cannot be more specific about key sharing and key storage for = inbound solutions.   We could certainly = mention draft-ietf-tls-subcerts as well.

  • Section 4.2 =E2=80=9CMaintain security posture and limit = modifications=E2=80=9D seems to recommend modifications to the = ClientHello, rather than having the proxy generate a new ClientHello. = Proxies sending ClientHellos they did not generate are a common cause of = interop issues.

That section needs more clarification.  We = are most certainly not proposing that TLS proxies should forward the = original ClientHello and are aware of the risks - especially when RSA = key exchange is used.  The intention of section 4.2 is for the TLS = proxy to base certain attributes of the generated ClientHello on what was advertised by the = client, with the goal of maintaining the security posture.


  • Section 4.2 also = explicitly allows completely insecure configurations:
      =E2=80=9CTLS proxy stacks MAY provide user configurable options, such =
as an
   option to accept self-signed server = certificates, an option to let
   the handshake continue = with expired but otherwise valid server
   certificates, = etc.=E2=80=9D


That paragraph needs = examples.   One such example is where device-to-device = communication in the enterprise traverses the TLS proxy and where said = devices must be excluded from further inspection based on a combination = of policy attributes - it is not always practical to update the = devices.

= --Apple-Mail=_147F458E-1F50-4EB8-B6FA-7DAA36986172-- From nobody Mon Jul 27 13:35:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867A73A0BC4; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:35:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: opsec@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.10.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: opsec@ietf.org Message-ID: <159588213749.24690.10626706270472932024@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:35:37 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-01.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 20:35:38 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure WG of the IETF. Title : Impact of TLS 1.3 to Operational Network Security Practices Authors : Nancy Cam-Winget Eric Wang Roman Danyliw Roelof DuToit Filename : draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-01.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-07-27 Abstract: Network-based security solutions are used by enterprises, the public sector, internet-service providers, and cloud-service providers to both complement and enhance host-based security solutions. As TLS is a widely deployed protocol to secure communication, these network- based security solutions must necessarily interact with it. This document describes this interaction for current operational security practices and notes the impact of TLS 1.3 on them. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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15.20.3216.033; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:20:57 +0000 From: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" To: Nick Harper CC: Ben Schwartz , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , OpSec Chairs , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AQHWZBBX3s7yu2FQsE+4XY6AWPSf36kbYlAAgAAJxoCAAAuNgIAAd96A Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 21:20:57 +0000 Message-ID: <5425303E-F86B-4D4C-9496-7F9E089D1BA5@cisco.com> References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [128.107.241.182] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1a233038-c5c4-40f4-71ff-08d83272f444 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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15.20.3216.033; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:48:48 +0000 From: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" To: "Salz, Rich" CC: Ira McDonald , "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" , OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AQHWZBBX3s7yu2FQsE+4XY6AWPSf36kbWk4AgAAC3gCAALuiAA== Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:48:47 +0000 Message-ID: <25CD4A36-5BE5-4B70-ACA7-04494C017D9D@cisco.com> References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [171.68.244.70] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 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MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR11MB2789.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3e832567-1ba5-4984-c304-08d832879b61 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Jul 2020 23:48:47.9135 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: uc0iX2zDzktFt6+Jwj8j49gjtvnVTC9UnWM1M5LlLgnzLMXwjsdcJ7KKwHk8mLfL3lUVem0ed9hhkZPeAJzxvg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3781 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 23:48:54 -0000 --_000_25CD4A365BE54B70ACA704494C017D9Dciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks you Rich. Obviously I support the adoption as one of the authors. B= ut more importantly, the reality of growing TLS proxy was the driver for st= arting the draft. That has been a sidecar with the progression of TLS and = its wide deployment. We felt the lack of a baseline bcp is going to hurt t= he security posture of TLS rather than driving the intermediary away. Best, -Eric On Jul 27, 2020, at 5:37 AM, Salz, Rich > wrote: Not adopting this seems to be ignoring reality. There are places which use = TLS intermediaries. Are those users not welcome here? I support adoption. _______________________________________________ OPSEC mailing list OPSEC@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec --_000_25CD4A365BE54B70ACA704494C017D9Dciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <39AC42A5817941488325BE229196B206@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks you Rich.  Obviously I support the adoption as one of the autho= rs. But more importantly, the reality of growing TLS proxy was the driver f= or starting the draft.  That has been a sidecar with the progression of TLS and its wide deployment.  We felt the lack of a baseline bcp i= s going to hurt the security posture of TLS rather than driving the interme= diary away.

Best,
-Eric

On Jul 27, 2020, at 5:37 AM, Salz, Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dma= rc.ietf.org> wrote:

Not adopting this seems to be ignoring reality. There are places which use = TLS intermediaries. Are those users not welcome here?=
 
I support adoption.
_______________________________________________ OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/opsec

--_000_25CD4A365BE54B70ACA704494C017D9Dciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jul 27 17:36:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91CD3A088A; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 17:35:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6uBHLP8v3Rtp; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 17:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58D7E3A0870; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 17:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2F4BE2F; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:35:51 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lOAf4QaRTTvh; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:35:49 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A9ECBE2E; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:35:49 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1595896549; bh=WiVN1SH1zkl3dLDeTQokqwh6lbQmS+50gCnBGHtuQDk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=MnQDBbJ8k3fPrSjI0nhDjze2vDT4ZTi82QptN0siDdaVur7Up4BDu3LAGyukVIRTU nRFCc2lZyVgAg63RWb9MIdPggi/c2E+z9ZebwSo4tLCVk0W+az3OqueRHAWiDnlGD2 JQN3U5F9rXNz/M/8QRbHI/N83+O7hDr0g9ZvcRzc= To: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , "Salz, Rich" Cc: OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> <25CD4A36-5BE5-4B70-ACA7-04494C017D9D@cisco.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <25CD4A36-5BE5-4B70-ACA7-04494C017D9D@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ppSaYg5G649FbAICruxMDiop5NyMwqaEx" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 00:35:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ppSaYg5G649FbAICruxMDiop5NyMwqaEx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="aRTdMWvxoR9yhuCU9uzH8d3bkLnfjhaS7"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , "Salz, Rich" Cc: OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> <25CD4A36-5BE5-4B70-ACA7-04494C017D9D@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <25CD4A36-5BE5-4B70-ACA7-04494C017D9D@cisco.com> --aRTdMWvxoR9yhuCU9uzH8d3bkLnfjhaS7 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8E329ABD85B583D32F3F6586" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8E329ABD85B583D32F3F6586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 28/07/2020 00:48, Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > We felt the lack of a > baseline bcp is going to hurt the security posture of TLS rather than > driving the intermediary away. That makes no sense to me. Adopting this draft will require eliminating all such gibberish and instead finding text that can garner IETF consensus. I really do not think that effort is worth the significant cost for anyone involved, pro-MITM or not. 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SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nerd.ninja Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E-Hv4JN-6YLN; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender4-of-o56.zoho.com (sender4-of-o56.zoho.com [136.143.188.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF41D3A0B0D; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:44:57 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1595904295; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=PJg9IM7XO0+3T2inll9Yepa6PeykuAXxtj/KLS8oD7xAox1Pu2UHqBPbDHAJwZSHlQXa4tNofpov5Jc5CkLUB5xxbiuhHo0xNOF6rD29vMRKhDKe6BTHmwhuFmpfYNUqkNVGcef718ebbp6gFAICdVXL+aczdCorotlXY1woNIg= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1595904295; 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mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1595904289523893.7787461858186; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 19:44:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Roelof duToit Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5314D569-56FB-43AE-9030-0F17B22A7E2F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 22:44:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , "Salz, Rich" , OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" To: Stephen Farrell References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> <25CD4A36-5BE5-4B70-ACA7-04494C017D9D@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-ZohoMailClient: External Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 02:44:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5314D569-56FB-43AE-9030-0F17B22A7E2F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii RFC 8446, section 9.3 states: Note that TLS's protocol requirements and security analysis only apply to the two connections separately. Safely deploying a TLS terminator requires additional security considerations which are beyond the scope of this document. The context of that paragraph is "A middlebox which terminates a TLS = connection" and it implies that there are undocumented security = considerations. The tls-proxy-bp draft is a contribution towards that goal and we think = it is worth the effort. --Roelof > On Jul 27, 2020, at 8:35 PM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 28/07/2020 00:48, Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: >> We felt the lack of a >> baseline bcp is going to hurt the security posture of TLS rather than >> driving the intermediary away. >=20 > That makes no sense to me. >=20 > Adopting this draft will require eliminating all such > gibberish and instead finding text that can garner IETF > consensus. I really do not think that effort is worth > the significant cost for anyone involved, pro-MITM or > not. >=20 > S. >=20 > = <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>_______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec --Apple-Mail=_5314D569-56FB-43AE-9030-0F17B22A7E2F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii RFC = 8446, section 9.3 states:
Note that TLS's = protocol requirements and security analysis only
apply to the two connections = separately.  Safely deploying a TLS
terminator requires additional security considerations which = are
beyond the scope of this = document.

The context of that paragraph is "A middlebox = which terminates a TLS connection" and it implies that there are undocumented security considerations.
The tls-proxy-bp draft is a contribution towards that goal = and we think it is worth the effort.

--Roelof


On Jul 27, 2020, at 8:35 PM, Stephen Farrell = <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:



On 28/07/2020 00:48, Eric Wang (ejwang) = wrote:
We felt the = lack of a
baseline bcp is going to hurt the security = posture of TLS rather than
driving the intermediary = away.

That makes no sense to = me.

Adopting this draft will require = eliminating all such
gibberish and instead finding text = that can garner IETF
consensus. I really do not think that = effort is worth
the significant cost for anyone involved, = pro-MITM or
not.

S.

<0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc= >_______________________________________________
OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec

= --Apple-Mail=_5314D569-56FB-43AE-9030-0F17B22A7E2F-- From nobody Mon Jul 27 22:23:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15AF3A0C80; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 22:23:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fhT2n9vQCxK; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 22:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 857663A0C7C; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 22:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id r12so15137811ilh.4; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 22:23:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1yAlBPzFWQhfdfZmfgFk9kl8D9a0U7y2b+7wTB8BPxo=; b=b+nFl3JLf3DEmd0kzgHhyvp7tNGB5FSo8bvYNM/Fzs1kJ5bMiZv7iiUfw+GDHS7M/b V0pVNMmowuG0gPhVEOYeIsDGAm8pIJakJcEp4rJSdPbf2YocSM5YA6UvxHe7UQw6v3y4 7LjWfC1WjHOh673j/9UIdZ4E3EU4BsglG7dy4g0J3xYHWfOf0MqL/hmvSWrXykFuucfr PgQv+sfUFeSD/KY5ipDjEUtSYi3cHR+lqTVL4LCu/KEXcJxlxIkgB5w+SR33VLIi3+Og CCca/F5VzgMvymyvfQmmmEJl2H2Sr+qeMVBWV8yOu9bMXzmDwe/tA8G012yiCmoey2aE e25A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1yAlBPzFWQhfdfZmfgFk9kl8D9a0U7y2b+7wTB8BPxo=; b=nfRzILza3CJxbD3hRLwYzz9gwkJVTXNNc4WsrSSXbpeeMfEWAP6TR1gzxmbCej0elI 3MK71MOTHvlbZZjuv1Twgl0c6ZgM5odXMo9txxyJ4p3IRAkHhNHXMXx/YSOenZg7EmSA GgBUx1Wn+h5yC3zIAJAVzxBrDB2vsICEu7TzOKckQ1tPS30v+0mu4hBV0U6/N7vqDDNk D8gOP5V/jjlG+HDjT49Fug+V6N6QpBypC0o35GVfkXG9WFqnQjBKyxDQT9j+IQgFcYpn WxOa/Qlw4E8ZAKWnUAuH/vtDHmiKuB+JKD51kgjysVktHfKsa/W5F3MwCPv2hOh//ZH5 Usvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531qbEALDuoloj/B+lS4DTBYpNM6gTkVSsABvYrjfSfGY1V7zxTu eBmsr0hNswgWE4TFEI57VomNkkso/40g6iI1uCB9R+On X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwfnkOcsZsIzAnqqZ/JF4eVApGw0YbpJgQKPn42k2RKbyhIQ6/ifOxnw+PkFP38DdmEnN7dDo+rxr3ND63nmzU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:dc90:: with SMTP id c16mr27195871iln.202.1595913778324; Mon, 27 Jul 2020 22:22:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <411590AE-EEA6-41EE-B0C8-CC1E0C05F1CE@akamai.com> <25CD4A36-5BE5-4B70-ACA7-04494C017D9D@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ashutosh Singh Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 22:22:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Roelof duToit Cc: Stephen Farrell , OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d96aae05ab79a108" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 05:23:03 -0000 --000000000000d96aae05ab79a108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I agree with the proposed approach and I also believe in discussion around safe and responsible middlebox deployment. I support the adoption of this draft! Regards -Ashu On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:45 PM Roelof duToit wrote: > RFC 8446, section 9.3 states: > *Note that TLS's protocol requirements and security analysis only* > *apply to the two connections separately. Safely deploying a TLS* > *terminator requires additional security considerations which are* > *beyond the scope of this document.* > > The context of that paragraph is "*A middlebox which terminates a TLS > connection*" and it implies that there are *undocumented* security > considerations. > The tls-proxy-bp draft is a contribution towards that goal and we think it > is worth the effort. > > --Roelof > > > On Jul 27, 2020, at 8:35 PM, Stephen Farrell > wrote: > > > > On 28/07/2020 00:48, Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > > We felt the lack of a > baseline bcp is going to hurt the security posture of TLS rather than > driving the intermediary away. > > > That makes no sense to me. > > Adopting this draft will require eliminating all such > gibberish and instead finding text that can garner IETF > consensus. I really do not think that effort is worth > the significant cost for anyone involved, pro-MITM or > not. > > S. > > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>_______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --000000000000d96aae05ab79a108 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with the proposed approach and I also believe in d= iscussion around safe and responsible middlebox deployment. I support the a= doption of this draft!

Regards
-Ashu

On M= on, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:45 PM Roelof duToit <r@nerd.ninja> wrote:
RFC 8446, section 9.3 states:
Note that TLS's protoco= l requirements and security analysis only
apply to th= e two connections separately.=C2=A0 Safely deploying a TLS
terminator requires additional security considerations which are
=
beyond the scope of this document.

The= context of that paragraph is "A middlebox which terminates a TLS c= onnection" and it implies that there are undocumented secur= ity considerations.
The tls-proxy-bp draft is a contribution towa= rds that goal and we think it is worth the effort.

--Roelof


On Ju= l 27, 2020, at 8:35 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


On 28/07/2020 00:48, Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote:
=
We felt the lack of a
baseline bcp is going to= hurt the security posture of TLS rather than
driving the intermediary a= way.

That makes no sense to me.

Adopting this dr= aft will require eliminating all such
gibberish and instead finding text= that can garner IETF
consensus. I really do not think that effort is wo= rth
the significant cost for anyone involved, pro-MITM or
not.
S.

<0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>_____________________= __________________________
OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/opsec

__= _____________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
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I think that others have said enough about the wisdom of adoption of the approach. I agree with them, but recognize the right to disagree. Even if we were to accept that it is a good idea to document best practices for TLS proxying, this document is not currently a good basis for that work. The introduction is a little deceptive, in that it says that it is about proxying, but there are numerous places in the draft that talk about selective proxying or some amount of forwarding and inspection. Those practices would require design work. From what I can infer from the draft, it often assumes the same sort of bad designs that are specifically identified elsewhere as having bad characteristics. As it is, the draft is not consistent in terms of its approach and scope. If the goal is to describe pure proxying (a TLS server and a TLS client that intermediate), then it needs a good edit. If the goal is to describe selective proxying or selective forwarding and modification of TLS messages, then that is a much bigger task. What are often stated in the draft as requirements around this points are in fact assumptions. And many of them bad, as others have stated. --- More detail follows Intermediaries if this nature are added to effect some sort of centralized control. This seems to be the primary motivation here also. If we accept that this is happening, it is important to note the operational effects of that. Not just on those who have this desire, but on all of those affected. There is some text about the effect this might have on the ability of clients or servers to introduce new features in Section 4.8. This is nowhere near sufficient. By breaking the connection the number of stack layers that are exposed to potential interference, the consequences are not limited to TLS. Creating negative externalities contributes to TLS interception being despised. If the intent is to help, then this doesn't go nearly far enough in describing the secondary effects a proxy might cause. Probably the worst problem is rooted in Section 5.1. The introduction establishes this as being about proxying, but there are several places that talk about not-proxying sometimes. Selective non-proxying opens the document up to a whole new set of problems that arise from poor designs for deciding not to proxy. There is not nearly enough detail here to address this problem properly. A "good" design for selective TLS proxying does not seem to be the basis of the recommendations. I'll give a few examples of problems. >From the Section 4.8 again: > the TLS proxy MUST conduct proper TLS protocol checks to avoid false identification of TLS handshakes, while taking special care not to contribute to protocol ossification. This practice has been directly responsible for more ossification than intermediation, no matter what qualification exists. If per-destination not-proxying is required, the proxy can connect to a server, determine that the server is on a non-proxy list, and then complete the handshake with the client (with a caveat regarding ECH here). I can guess why this doesn't happen (it's expensive and see also Section 5.4), but that doesn't excuse the practice. The following text from Section 5.3 is deeply problematic: A decryption policy decision MAY be made based on the server certificate or other trustworthy parameters. To verify possession of private keys that are associated with a particular server certificate, the proxy SHOULD complete an out-of-band TLS handshake with the same TLS server IP address and TCP port as targeted by the TLS client. It is possible that the authors misunderstand how TLS works, but this check won't work. Not only because TLS 1.3 encrypts information, but because this is only necessary if the proxy forwards a ClientHello from the client to the server. At that point, it is too late and the damage has been done (see Andrei's review). There are a bunch of places where pure proxying - as described in the introduction - is not assumed. This leads to the same problems already cited. For instance, in Section 4.2: > The proxy MAY remove cipher suites from a client-initiated Client Hello message, add new cipher suites, and re-order them in the proxy-initiated Client Hello message. From nobody Tue Jul 28 01:35:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE353A08C6 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:35:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.381 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.381 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_WORDY=2.5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=protonmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mfi63_iljAyF for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.protonmail.ch (mail1.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A3533A08C0 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 01:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:35:44 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail; t=1595925348; bh=cyBBL9fa34xpAxLSLdKxPAxBK5TjO8OWkfG/aPdvqCI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=yE5l3Bk/ctzhUyX4sBliQDb4S6EcBwZsUWfjbpeyz0SnhBn9FcjIKUr/cg0aGbVwU RMajbKgNRyjCZ4sc6sbmzXAJSmK5yUDRBIOvzxycLJuVe2bMnmTetWXL+mbugyam6u bZi9iDvJx13g7GM7PgdwwyMi0ChQyx5tL98DrRCo= To: Jen Linkova From: "Arnaud.Taddei.IETF" Cc: OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" , OpSec Chairs Reply-To: "Arnaud.Taddei.IETF" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 08:35:54 -0000 I strongly support this work as it represents capabilities that are being d= eveloped, deployed and used in practice. It has good intentions and provide= s a good approach in the context of defense in depth approaches. No securit= y cannot be just on both ends of the communication. One can dream about it = but that is not how reality is. Removing this possibility is a limit to the= overall defense. I do not understand the reasons behind ignoring reality and the IETF would = have, in my naive mind, a strong interest in getting this work under good c= ommunity adoption so that it is kept in good control with validated best pr= actices. Everyone would win. I support this draft Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Thursday 23 July 2020 03:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published. > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org wrote: > > > Folks, > > This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. > > Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. > > > > Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > OPSEC mailing list > > OPSEC@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > -- > > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Tue Jul 28 04:13:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4333A0AF5 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:13:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xenNuFvdfVy8 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2FB33A0AF6 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id v15so6247183lfg.6 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:13:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t1fw6wTCMCPAeSyhrR2B8tXbk//XHBh3pEDCAjKqso8=; b=rYptd69LRvo7bpPWpGNeNNl9edzmOoonxC5drZPRQh+EO1c2uQKHghx5SbKqRwXZ5t yI0a5JPZpfEjYuTPL+28ut8VN9FDcjaUEKJbhFcPDwSa2mY8QMfNmdylIX8k7NMcixZ2 9bJHigP4CC9q7k+9sYlDlLqBR0/0gCp8n3Q7tEDOMBT2H8JoCcxStLL6g9RNYII3DR4g wvRZkzFRHmTmnUIZbc0/lNUobI/XJX/E9nVHr39EFn2+EtPNSev25JbHuneNk0BMifZM /OCZbiCx7oH2je4u2g2VXThN5fKUk4eezE4qsui+tDl0UEy9nguxmkPC1gZNMTqF8FZr BLcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t1fw6wTCMCPAeSyhrR2B8tXbk//XHBh3pEDCAjKqso8=; b=ErhMJn209jd9ladUw7F3HHhpsb0igHFlLcJKRZHyzbSssSB5BRiNi0QmaJffk2/L44 9v/qvIdm34JbHp1cZ6s6858eWu0mSUFP+yfWn/9ljOgOd+gEBHslUDrK8TA9XINPukv4 3fNpQlX8YqAyn7DSic1wD34VgwxG9G9kjmPntIUHEN4BZcBHM4HfVWNvx+K2hiBaMyk/ YvWnM/PmX9S6Lr/LS4pW5TiJk2Rw0+zzkHXZwg77tvEe8G6gFtyJ/HqgpIhUS88A6Rx5 djxUtFvSoSMx7+ETOlbu1QurNQZrowiDlMahoibAzwHdq6AcJuEVc6mKL7J5Ojh6XG4L kcxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531PD0HQQBDiF6UrP7QWthlxhIRkULiDH0vDnl4iqmK72xmlR0dJ jOYRGVtDwoNxr64G+C9Ptvk0XAod/vYk6USibMYPSA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCzd2pYHLa8Y7CjhmfHu+JA9vWIvE1KN+ZW0Gw+V5YjEzLR2TIriNKRvjepzTrKaq9AiQFTOjLWuK4S4Trqpk= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6715:: with SMTP id b21mr14178714lfc.55.1595934812279; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:13:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:12:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: Ron Bonica , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009232e805ab7e87a9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:13:37 -0000 --0000000000009232e805ab7e87a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 12:26 AM Martin Thomson wrote: > The following text from Section 5.3 is deeply problematic: > > A decryption policy decision MAY be made based on the server > certificate or other trustworthy parameters. To verify possession of > private keys that are associated with a particular server > certificate, the proxy SHOULD complete an out-of-band TLS handshake > with the same TLS server IP address and TCP port as targeted by the > TLS client. > > It is possible that the authors misunderstand how TLS works, but this > check won't work. Not only because TLS 1.3 encrypts information, but > because this is only necessary if the proxy forwards a ClientHello from the > client to the server. In addition, this check is susceptible to trivial forwarding attack in which the server in question forwards the data to the true server. -Ekr --0000000000009232e805ab7e87a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 12:26 AM Mart= in Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net&g= t; wrote:
The following text from Section 5.3 is deeply problematic:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0A decryption policy decision MAY be made based on the server =C2=A0 =C2=A0certificate or other trustworthy parameters.=C2=A0 To verify p= ossession of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0private keys that are associated with a particular server
=C2=A0 =C2=A0certificate, the proxy SHOULD complete an out-of-band TLS hand= shake
=C2=A0 =C2=A0with the same TLS server IP address and TCP port as targeted b= y the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TLS client.

It is possible that the authors misunderstand how TLS works, but this check= won't work.=C2=A0 Not only because TLS 1.3 encrypts information, but b= ecause this is only necessary if the proxy forwards a ClientHello from the = client to the server.

In addition, this che= ck is susceptible to trivial forwarding attack in which the server in quest= ion forwards the data to the true server.

-Ekr

--0000000000009232e805ab7e87a9-- From nobody Tue Jul 28 04:21:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4D33A0AFF; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:20:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yFcUa7fokxcW; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zg8tmty1ljiyny4xntqumjca.icoremail.net (zg8tmty1ljiyny4xntqumjca.icoremail.net [165.227.154.27]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C56433A0B19; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOPA8LSRCM (unknown [183.173.55.112]) by app-1 (Coremail) with SMTP id DwQGZQBHj7gCCiBf2wqyAw--.61959S3; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:20:34 +0800 (CST) From: "Dan Li" To: , Cc: "'Lancheng Qin'" , "'Tao Lin'" , "'Yunan Gu'" , "'Jianping Wu'" Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 19:20:36 +0800 Message-ID: <059301d664d1$1e027bb0$5a077310$@tsinghua.edu.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0594_01D66514.2C25E2C0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AdZkzqcjSqMOuL5RRSKwdwjGoqeM0w== Content-Language: zh-cn X-CM-TRANSID: DwQGZQBHj7gCCiBf2wqyAw--.61959S3 X-Coremail-Antispam: 1UD129KBjvdXoW7Gr1kGr1fKrWfWw15ZFyrZwb_yoWkuFb_Zw 1YgryY9w48u3WxCF4ayr9aqrWfZFZYg3yYk395Jr42y348ZwnFvw1kGF9FqryIqry8Gr4Y yF1xZ3Z8Ca4YgjkaLaAFLSUrUUUUUb8apTn2vfkv8UJUUUU8Yxn0WfASr-VFAUDa7-sFnT 9fnUUIcSsGvfJTRUUUbO8YjsxI4VWxJwAYFVCjjxCrM7AC8VAFwI0_Gr0_Xr1l1xkIjI8I 6I8E6xAIw20EY4v20xvaj40_Wr0E3s1l1IIY67AEw4v_Jr0_Jr4l8cAvFVAK0II2c7xJM2 8CjxkF64kEwVA0rcxSw2x7M28EF7xvwVC0I7IYx2IY67AKxVW7JVWDJwA2z4x0Y4vE2Ix0 cI8IcVCY1x0267AKxVWxJVW8Jr1l84ACjcxK6I8E87Iv67AKxVW0oVCq3wA2z4x0Y4vEx4 A2jsIEc7CjxVAFwI0_GcCE3s1le2I262IYc4CY6c8Ij28IcVAaY2xG8wASzI0EjI02j7Aq F2xKxwAqx4xG64xvF2IEw4CE5I8CrVC2j2WlYx0E2Ix0cI8IcVAFwI0_Jr0_Jr4lYx0Ex4 A2jsIE14v26r1j6r4UMcvjeVCFs4IE7xkEbVWUJVW8JwCY02Avz4vE14v_Gw4l4I8I3I0E 4IkC6x0Yz7v_Jr0_Gr1lx2IqxVAqx4xG67AKxVWUJVWUGwC20s026x8GjcxK67AKxVWUGV WUWwC2zVAF1VAY17CE14v26r126r1DMIIF0xvE2Ix0cI8IcVAFwI0_Jr0_JF4lIxAIcVC0 I7IYx2IY6xkF7I0E14v26r1j6r4UMIIF0xvE42xK8VAvwI8IcIk0rVWrZr1j6s0DMIIF0x vEx4A2jsIE14v26r1j6r4UMIIF0xvEx4A2jsIEc7CjxVAFwI0_Jr0_GrUvcSsGvfC2Kfnx nUUI43ZEXa7IU8qNt7UUUUU== X-CM-SenderInfo: pwroxvtdq632xlqjx3vdohv3gofq/1tbiAQILCVEw+Qc5pgAAsB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Confirm submission of I-D draft-li-sava-intra-domain-use-cases X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:21:00 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0594_01D66514.2C25E2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, We have a draft presentation today in the OPSA working group today, = about the problems for existing SAV (source address validation) = solutions. Enclosed please find the draft and presentation slides. You = are welcome to join and give us suggestions/comments. Thanks, Dan Li -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: IETF I-D Submission Tool = [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8814=E6=97=A5 = 1:01 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Lancheng Qin ; = Tao Lin ; Yunan Gu ; Dan Li = ; Jianping Wu =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Confirm submission of I-D = draft-li-sava-intra-domain-use-cases Hi, The IETF datatracker draft submission service has received your draft = draft-li-sava-intra-domain-use-cases-00, and requires a confirmation = step in order to be able to complete the posting of the draft. Please follow this link to the page where you can confirm the posting: https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/status/113356/confirm/3a24c6e0beb875a= 765fd3e2a3cf1d465/ Best regards, The IETF Secretariat through the draft submission service ------=_NextPart_000_0594_01D66514.2C25E2C0 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="draft-li-sava-intra-domain-use-cases-00.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-li-sava-intra-domain-use-cases-00.pdf" JVBERi0xLjQKJcfsj6IKNSAwIG9iago8PC9MZW5ndGggNiAwIFIvRmlsdGVyIC9GbGF0ZURlY29k ZT4+CnN0cmVhbQp4nK1X227bOBB911cMAizaBWJGF1uy+uYmTpvCudRxWhRFHmiJttnoVpGK48f0 y3eGUlxfumhTRU4sWSKP5nBmzgy/g80csOnTnKPUOhoHMFeWA/Qp51av50PXxv9+tw9BL+xDKayZ ZWbR8++WU183pyiFtxNECSFkIUxmVo3sQIB/gcccFyap9fpC6GVe3sFn/JLZHN6VeVXAs44TBiP5 7+Sb5Tis37cdmIys12eZFmUmdOek5DP9PMDm+MDgc/Xvqxori0UMSnNdqTdwls3yMuVa5hlPfg80 UchsUXHCGj4UshSI8YFnFS9X4HiH4Nqu8+d2fWHwztj1V6y2jvcVXwr5MlgjBh9l9hJYm+vV3q4J 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eeKKz5whRuMtU332Pu0y45/8W3UZlacVYNTw8duBlFgzJJmZ+V4bED/BcAc7zQ4kjuPy 1vNJ2FQaANx74RlAmzaZIzVIsQwuSURhsQE2M1PnG8f2v+tU96JFiUDDbTJ9OsKlcNQd x/YA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533b4086qUmBGqKB2tkH9BUQUeofTVDCThS99mHeZF5855ZEj7IH 5GHWOI+J1znc6Vot0vqbyALGZs9iSC/svYnzxdJxbToc X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz7Fhy3eiC075hi8lvrHmLzajvtWGrxJQPvR6Y1/gMbvT5USAEGLIc5vMU1B/ZlOJWKZ7TaYUdBG5u6EkrOwEM= X-Received: by 2002:aed:3b0e:: with SMTP id p14mr27277785qte.149.1595941545701; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 06:05:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jen Linkova Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:05:34 +1000 Message-ID: To: opsec WG Cc: tls@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] OpSec WGLC for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:05:52 -0000 This email starts the WG Last Call for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact , Impact of TLS 1.3 to Operational Network Security Practices, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact/. Taking into account IETF108, the WGLC is extended to 3 weeks and ends on Aug 18th, 23:59:59 UTC. Please review the document and express your support or concerns/comments. Thanks! -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry on behalf of the OpSec Chairs. 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Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:07:52 +0000 From: tom petch To: Jen Linkova , opsec WG CC: "tls@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [OPSEC] OpSec WGLC for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact Thread-Index: AQHWZOAEUv5F9DjalEW4QGtE95/kRakdJpAB Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:07:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=btconnect.com; x-originating-ip: [81.131.229.35] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5a760cc4-e3b8-424e-87d3-08d833106196 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB6PR07MB3318: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: jJE/7KiPRtar8ksXvc/903RW2CeUTJF8fuHr36HJ/usZnHoCPIy8+1LanKPbWxCON4axufnhyiUvO8FpkvzqAJ7lRJheI0WQ8qbmvfzw43oXDxwOCGq/vUvUO5vXixSNpwKbHlS4UW4tXqsTUMfoLZ/lpXjK7gusiSnbwa4+QTwFVOHkRrpuDLxdDsQLvGjmzuNVMmsMXxt/JSVEtZTCZCZoHQp1kAhgIaI5/eeutwRwz8v5nFyV6Zhx4d++rcvW0fif+FaM6uNZyaUmEqstJwJyA7PFa2EGc79PXzReEoEA8yVNbRrI1oJNZUdb+uWIVvQxnjaFWWZLjL7geD52VsUch25DkU/KmqH8IWGdO0L7sKA7iQODCQzj43H243mBIHS0apTzFpvbC27n453W9w== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR07MB5340.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5a760cc4-e3b8-424e-87d3-08d833106196 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Jul 2020 16:07:52.1934 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: QxnpPboW6FHx2AVcPX/mgwTzsDiSXQeSujdD8ioCZFxoHmni356V4jIhXicmmCrLb52jjDbq5PTGcH7nL2NGjQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR07MB3318 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] OpSec WGLC for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:07:59 -0000 From: OPSEC on behalf of Jen Linkova =0A= Sent: 28 July 2020 14:05=0A= =0A= This email starts the WG Last Call for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact ,=0A= =0A= Impact of TLS 1.3 to Operational Network Security Practices,=0A= =0A= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact/.=0A= =0A= Taking into account IETF108, the WGLC is extended to 3 weeks and ends=0A= on Aug 18th, 23:59:59 UTC.=0A= =0A= Please review the document and express your support or concerns/comments.= =0A= =0A= =0A= OPPOSE (yes, I am shouting)=0A= =0A= This is nowhere near ready and putting it forward so soon is ... well ludic= rous comes to mind.=0A= =0A= After WG adoption, comments were made to which there was no acknowledgement= , no response, I was about to oppose the adoption of the other I-D from th= ese authors on the grounds that until they respond to comments nothing else= should happen because when they do there are more comments waiting to be a= ired. I am still of that view.=0A= =0A= I do see that a revised I-D has just appeared in among the thousand or so I= -D that appear around the time of an IETF meeting, a timing that I sometime= s think is designed to let it slip through unnoticed. Given all those othe= r I-D - silly authors - it may be more than three weeks before I get my tho= ughts together.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= Thanks!=0A= =0A= --=0A= SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry on behalf of the OpSec Chairs.=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= OPSEC mailing list=0A= OPSEC@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec=0A= From nobody Tue Jul 28 09:11:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3BFE3A0E6C; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:11:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kjWjb_DUdDUn; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A21C3A07E8; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id d14so20324920qke.13; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:14:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8Og7KvmUD4hFJG5EgUHfi3Xz9+kVkv0wUYcmXol9eDc=; b=V63U5yojwvlSkkNfjkghD62dslMc4dVYXG06OrRzz4K2AuTIbGIEN8HJ2bjvP2/15t BiieVXw6lfZh0tBPXplrhraamwQiMA/dBpsz4hTiOukn90MmfvzCGnJM+aCm4PBrcDRN n7+Qy7w0vhBHDhRtEBGU6WIh6A5kQ29wh/yeoIZE1IT6BKvt/cR+lZsSmiBiLRgjPObe OlN6TG3bSQIH7i+mz7OvrLhobIJgIxwrPDwBfZ05tORtFVhKjhpBtt0QTsVtFD6sP1rT MAuw61U6JiqCjUJxwQDtuGpM9RkcmUHOTylgf8opMqQs9dLRH9pkzOoCRgHp0cPFxQ+5 GbLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8Og7KvmUD4hFJG5EgUHfi3Xz9+kVkv0wUYcmXol9eDc=; b=tsmLSwU5GPxFpwBbIZ+cD1KhHwsgE2Ck8Ym6LVJ9Wj1hnJr6b+pzX0xbCxyGF1ro3d 80GQlYXpTtEZN1nYFYstic4Y5pDJg0Q/9I7fcLqGAjwYo6SRzIrC5gfWuulRyRw+eprT 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 22:14:53 -0000 On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 2:07 AM tom petch wrote: >> This email starts the WG Last Call for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact , >> Impact of TLS 1.3 to Operational Network Security Practices, >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact/. > > OPPOSE (yes, I am shouting) > > This is nowhere near ready and putting it forward so soon is ... well lud= icrous comes to mind. > > After WG adoption, comments were made to which there was no acknowledgeme= nt, no response, I was about to oppose the adoption of the other I-D from = these authors on the grounds that until they respond to comments nothing el= se should happen because when they do there are more comments waiting to be= aired. I am still of that view. Sorry, it's partially my fault. I did explicitly ask the authors to address your comments and submit a new version. I should have double-checked that the new version incorporates the feedback. Dear authors, would you be able to address Tom's comments ASAP so the new revision can be reviewed during the WGLC? > I do see that a revised I-D has just appeared in among the thousand or so= I-D that appear around the time of an IETF meeting, a timing that I someti= mes think is designed to let it slip through unnoticed. Given all those ot= her I-D - silly authors - it may be more than three weeks before I get my t= houghts together. Just to clarify: would you prefer not to have the WGLC around IETF weeks at all? --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Tue Jul 28 15:41:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 300783A09E8; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 15:41:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=bHyrHEU2; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=HoVCL3nR Received: from mail.ietf.org 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X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.11.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: opsec@ietf.org Message-ID: <159598135114.26613.5823061344512607690@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:09:11 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-02.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:09:12 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure WG of the IETF. Title : Impact of TLS 1.3 to Operational Network Security Practices Authors : Nancy Cam-Winget Eric Wang Roman Danyliw Roelof DuToit Filename : draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-02.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2020-07-28 Abstract: Network-based security solutions are used by enterprises, the public sector, internet-service providers, and cloud-service providers to both complement and enhance host-based security solutions. As TLS is a widely deployed protocol to secure communication, these network- based security solutions must necessarily interact with it. This document describes this interaction for current operational security practices and notes the impact of TLS 1.3 on them. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 28 17:24:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147503A0CC6; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fJvP7D-H6B56; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98E783A0CB4; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id d2so6388968lfj.1; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:24:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=m6IhJAtiKndgiNdN1ZPIKIIUwrNDZtIw8ze5LktucsQ=; b=eo0KaVLK3Fs9OFu9RWLsT3koM4J1t2e/4hnacshNH87voJpMXoiZuUcdp9EbgIxpm0 Hm5unEY4GumzzHAYQWnNZg+ulOiB18nFzZIje3BrYos0ltNWLUUog9zeShzuARwQtYgL WJ75fWeY7Is4oDItC7jeUpWSaCnWRRx8v1WwjxSKOJiKt2qJUeUlPgbhJuPGUfIufKYQ oe0HkaMBvBKgn7g1Sv4pLzWtbmjmieB166l1BQQYUy1jqryMMRixQUFpbzdUeP2n0cFm d4fS0Y0G1Kv6Ck5qpdEmLJ0DOfmR/8GJe6KacULOAiq6WBJNlyDvAUcpa61qu8DWcYR8 Y0gA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=m6IhJAtiKndgiNdN1ZPIKIIUwrNDZtIw8ze5LktucsQ=; b=fP0tdy38XPFe+MvY0WysFRMfEQ+VxB+HLjjS9RYZpPG+2emhXx7/sUtNzp0CRcLSXs Qyjr4EJ704310El3+1htRS2tiyfEXFKeSAfvJmOoX0wfxT09+Azs7D12L2Enapu0CCfX 8cJKCBNyhdO1Apeu9mkgiWVFPBgHzBUgVu87NZwjeyGANxwAb6rldExKeI+EXOwBbBSg sLlA2lnrEYCmLLDc56htY6Amf3PdgCtq8qsMk6JSHNXDg4FDpJQeCBEKqbZn3wk7t7fD etAfeEvfcdllImoVCtOg8o2Qon7yGyfHvaLxszT9H5hxFbIhDvkvh0ZeESPBBYmx+V4w AUMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533kbzoHbV+EH5xyHCOFaVULWGnhXwvjw7dOx6fGpEvLuraNDFQ+ qDV2snAj4LNt0dkkmf7S2lVZDIErMZtoJgMZp0o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhNbFrBMw95/vhudknTZzO761ubmEPKDtPJuUijRpdkTsWPB/4oFslvSVUegUPsJJlIC70D+nUF015DJyl77g= X-Received: by 2002:a19:f601:: with SMTP id x1mr16155428lfe.209.1595982240768; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:24:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4937FCE4-23EF-4585-8675-C07F3B347AC6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4937FCE4-23EF-4585-8675-C07F3B347AC6@cisco.com> From: Watson Ladd Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:23:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Cc: Stephen Farrell , Jen Linkova , OpSec Chairs , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000087681405ab899264" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:24:05 -0000 --00000000000087681405ab899264 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 1:15 AM Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > Thanks for your feedback. I=E2=80=99d like to clarify, given the reality= today > that CDN/load balancers and enterprises deploy TLS proxy, this draft is > merely to lay out a baseline guidance to the implementation and > operation[1]. It is not meant to analyze "use and abuse" or "pros and > cons", for which there were many discussions and publications in the past > and the draft references some of them. > CDNs are usually aware of application level semantics and have some interesting security problems when not. There's no generic safe way to terminate TLS, and that's a real problem for this draft: it needs to be specific to certain use cases. > Given the progression of TLS and its wide adoption, the use of TLS proxy > is also becoming a practice and is growing in enterprise/CDN. We felt it= =E2=80=99s > a good thing for the community to define a set of best practices for > practitioners to reference when implementing and operating TLS proxy. > Without one, TLS deployments would be negatively impacted. Also, given > some of the implementation inconsistencies noted during the TLS 1.3 > evolution, we felt a bcp guide could help the community moving forward. > That=E2=80=99s the purpose of this draft. > We've seen middlebox writers ignore black letter extensibility requirements in the existing RFCs and adopt broken patterns before. Why will another draft help? > Best, > -Eric > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp-00#section-= 1 > > > On Jul 25, 2020, at 7:07 AM, Stephen Farrell > wrote: > > > I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit > in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls, > I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at > all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd > need to be to be adopted. > > Send to ISE. > > S. > > On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published. > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: > > > Folks, > > > > This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. > > > > Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. > > > > Ron > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > > > > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>_______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --00000000000087681405ab899264 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 1:15 AM Eric Wang (ejwang) <e= jwang=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wr= ote:
Hi Stephen,=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Thanks for your feedback.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d like to clarify, given the real= ity today that CDN/load balancers and enterprises deploy TLS proxy, this dr= aft is merely to lay out a baseline guidance to the implementation=C2=A0and= operation[1].=C2=A0 It is not meant to analyze "use and abuse" or "pros and cons", for which there were many discus= sions and publications in the past and the draft references some of them.

CDNs are usually aware of application level semantics and h= ave some interesting security problems when not.
There's no generic safe way to terminate TLS, = and that's a real problem for this draft: it needs to be specific to ce= rtain use cases.


Given the progression of TLS and its wide adoption, the use of TLS proxy is= also becoming a practice and is growing in enterprise/CDN.=C2=A0 We felt i= t=E2=80=99s a good thing for the community to define a set of best=C2=A0pra= ctices for practitioners to reference when implementing and operating TLS proxy.=C2=A0 Without one, TLS deployments would be negat= ively impacted.=C2=A0 Also,=C2=A0given some of the implementation inconsist= encies noted during the TLS 1.3 evolution, we felt a bcp guide could help t= he community moving forward.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s the purpose of this draft.

We've seen middlebox writers ignore bl= ack letter extensibility requirements in the existing RFCs and adopt broken= patterns before. Why will another draft help?

<= /div>
<= div>
Best,
-Eric

[1]=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp-= 00#section-1


On Jul 25, 2020, at 7:07 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


I oppose adoption. While there could be some minor benefit
in documenting the uses and abuses seen when mitm'ing tls,
I doubt that the effort to ensure a balanced document is at
all worthwhile. The current draft is too far from what it'd
need to be to be adopted.

Send to ISE.

S.

On 23/07/2020 02:30, Jen Linkova wrote:
One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and
explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe
the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica
<rbonica=3D40junipe= r.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Folks,



This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp.



Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by = August 3, 2020.



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0Ron




Juniper Business Use Only

_______________________________________________
OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/opsec



--
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry

_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/tls

<0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>________________________________________= _______
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/tls

_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
--00000000000087681405ab899264-- From nobody Tue Jul 28 17:35:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B703A0D1B for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:35:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfLaqRFUXBvt for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oo1-xc2f.google.com (mail-oo1-xc2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5CC73A0D1E for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oo1-xc2f.google.com with SMTP id z10so1317431ooi.10 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:35:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DiVMhP6rguChkU1zMqGnUqDW8CJP8K3GYzcGnwxiKjs=; b=S7vJ6xY9J88qP3R1B2BPEHyL3OVNzQfkSEC7p6WByrFebSVs0zYFOvkUbWY49FA/w9 8rvPbgVUY8iFCSe6qafXBInJY1kz7pwY6uvZCqkaZNyURsPWtyL485yUxnIE+DG0Z6W6 ylV+v19nt+WJ6k/bajetmpShzjM0nrKxoSu82fGqgxy3CZkNBz1zqSp4wPMh9iy0hz+2 oAaMdWn8AI3ALVTbubztaT5QdTPP4ngyflJLGZ2kqbDa+8XEPwez5u/LXY5QcxyenAIZ 4e8RSCPO6Wn0ZZ09sasCam3wZEeDfX3gGpy7ea+c13VxnL5gI78mX2/YvcAbVd1YH63N OutQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DiVMhP6rguChkU1zMqGnUqDW8CJP8K3GYzcGnwxiKjs=; b=ajDERfzKbKNsuhYXAybBAY9dCRj5ovgjAPMT4P4PbUdN7FBd65Y/rx4c6z8G8gIz6g HHXCwj5YL+VmBvTVZVwjm5zHVbpxIyRHOBLoyPPWUSU8/USS7LLeJccIRmJabFBBWeZR rJy1Ya0ahxcN3fbatvj/K+Q1rYRPj3Vlem4L2gf98uGuAxQdai+JP18t2andNHvT+Lex 8cLGYF58LwzN7a25a4pnELsbcZO0xRVezw5om9MKAahu4wlbS4UqHDRd6W1eR2X8cgv+ Gzr3HvOlFiET96BmW1KSbR0dZM/1n7CLQ0Pe1swV/9ysLj542pFQst9GLbuZ+ev4gy55 U0Qw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530F2X2XZ0I9MtajR8+YHdCGhaGZlQ7u16WloeTdJHYVRSDVBvol OYVyGExUky3N++fHtL9DdY9aa7cGqeIcozqLTbh9Fg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/gu1027CbP8drwcBGLvm0TIToZyGcqayKny1VZu7vkeSiR6EK+9lcOJOppAC+YUmQS2BRIlBuqy0AqaSCgMU= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:9572:: with SMTP id n47mr19612383ooi.37.1595982910530; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:35:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> From: Nick Harper Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:34:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Cc: Martin Thomson , Ron Bonica , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000073d73c05ab89babd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:35:19 -0000 --00000000000073d73c05ab89babd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 2:19 PM Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > Thank you for the detailed comments. > > The scope of the document is limited to proxy at the TLS layer. > Explicitly out of the scope is inspection of the proxied record data. > Will clean up derivations from this scope. > > It was the intention to cover selective proxying however, because that is > a practical requirement for an actual deployment. The intention was to > discuss the TLS layer attributes (e.g. SNI, Server Cert) that could be us= ed > as input for the decision. The document also stated the requirement to > gracefully remove the proxy from the session when needed (and possible). > But the criteria for selective proxying decision, being compliance, > privacy, risk level,... are out of the scope. The decision making often > falls under the larger =E2=80=9Cpolicy=E2=80=9D domain and is controlled = at system level > outside of the proxy. It also left out discussion on the detailed > mechanism which was deemed as implementation specific. > > In any case, the proxy has to conduct selective proxying in a safe, > non-disruptive manner. This may require more design work as you pointed > out. The document could describe possible mechanisms so that an acceptab= le > practice could be discussed. We are open to other ways to shape it. > An acceptable practice MUST include not violating the protocol invariants in RFC 8446. It is not possible for a proxy to obey the protocol invariants and selectively proxy based on the contents of the TLS handshake between the proxy and the server a client wishes to connect to. > > More inline... > > > Probably the worst problem is rooted in Section 5.1. The introduction > establishes this as being about proxying, but there are several places th= at > talk about not-proxying sometimes. > > Selective non-proxying opens the document up to a whole new set of > problems that arise from poor designs for deciding not to proxy. There i= s > not nearly enough detail here to address this problem properly. A "good" > design for selective TLS proxying does not seem to be the basis of the > recommendations. I'll give a few examples of problems. > > From the Section 4.8 again: > > > the TLS proxy MUST conduct proper TLS protocol checks to avoid false > identification of TLS handshakes, while taking special care not to > contribute to protocol ossification. > > > This practice has been directly responsible for more ossification than > intermediation, no matter what qualification exists. > > If per-destination not-proxying is required, the proxy can connect to a > server, determine that the server is on a non-proxy list, and then comple= te > the handshake with the client (with a caveat regarding ECH here). I can > guess why this doesn't happen (it's expensive and see also Section 5.4), > but that doesn't excuse the practice. > > The following text from Section 5.3 is deeply problematic: > > A decryption policy decision MAY be made based on the server > certificate or other trustworthy parameters. To verify possession of > private keys that are associated with a particular server > certificate, the proxy SHOULD complete an out-of-band TLS handshake > with the same TLS server IP address and TCP port as targeted by the > TLS client. > > It is possible that the authors misunderstand how TLS works, but this > check won't work. Not only because TLS 1.3 encrypts information, but > because this is only necessary if the proxy forwards a ClientHello from t= he > client to the server. At that point, it is too late and the damage has > been done (see Andrei's review). > > > > Unless I misunderstood it, the document is suggesting the same as you > listed. Basically, the proxy makes a separate connection to the server a= s > a client (=E2=80=9Cout-of-band=E2=80=9D wrt to the originating client-ser= ver connection), > retrieves the server=E2=80=99s certificate from the proxy-server handshak= e, and > determines whether the server is on a non-proxying list or not. If on th= e > list, the proxy forwards the originating client CH as is to the server, a= nd > steps aways from the originating client-server handshake. > The proxy MUST generate a fresh ClientHello when doing this (something Andrei and I previously mentioned). When the proxy makes its separate connection to the server, the server can behave differently when responding to the proxy compared to when it responds to the client, and could present itself to the proxy as something innocuous that should not be proxied. Assuming at this point that the proxy has held onto the client's ClientHello (waiting for the response from the server to the proxy's ClientHello), the proxy decides either to intercept this connection or allow the client's ClientHello to go through to the server. When the proxy allows the client's ClientHello to go through to the server (without interception), there's no guarantee that the server will respond to the client the same way it did to the proxy, or even that the identity the server presented to the proxy is the server's real identity. If the proxy copies extensions unknown to it from the client's ClientHello to its own, then it will not be able to parse the response from the server when the server acts on those unknown extensions. This caused a year of delay in finishing TLS 1.3, and is bad for everyone. A malicious client and cooperating server don't even need to use an extensibility point unknown to the proxy to evade a proxy selectively terminating connections based on the TLS handshake between the proxy and server. This sort of selective proxying is fundamentally broken and should not be recommended as a best practice. > > There are additional considerations in this approach (latency etc.). The > document intentionally left out the details to implementations, but could > also cover them if needed. > > > > > There are a bunch of places where pure proxying - as described in the > introduction - is not assumed. This leads to the same problems already > cited. For instance, in Section 4.2: > > The proxy MAY remove cipher suites from a client-initiated Client Hello > message, add new cipher suites, and re-order them in the proxy-initiated > Client Hello message. > > > Will clean up those texts based on this and other discussions. > > Best, > -Eric > > > > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --00000000000073d73c05ab89babd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 2:19 PM Eric = Wang (ejwang) <ejwang=3D40= cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Thank you for the detailed comments.

The scope of the document is limited to proxy at the TLS layer.=C2=A0 = Explicitly out of the scope is inspection of the proxied record data. =C2= =A0 Will clean up derivations from this scope.

It was the intention to cover selective proxying however, because that= is a practical requirement for an actual deployment.=C2=A0 The intention w= as to discuss the TLS layer attributes (e.g. SNI, Server Cert) that could b= e used as input for the decision. =C2=A0The document also stated the requirement to gracefully remove the pr= oxy from the session when needed (and possible).=C2=A0 But the criteria for= selective proxying decision, being compliance, privacy, risk level,... are= out of the scope.=C2=A0 The decision making often falls under the larger =E2=80=9Cpolicy=E2=80=9D domain and is controlled a= t system level outside of the proxy.=C2=A0 It also left out discussion on t= he detailed mechanism which was deemed as implementation specific.

In any case, the proxy has to conduct selective proxying in a safe, no= n-disruptive manner. This may require more design work as you pointed out.= =C2=A0 The document could describe possible mechanisms so that an acceptabl= e practice could be discussed. =C2=A0We are open to other ways to shape it.

An acceptable practice MUST include not violating the = protocol invariants in RFC 8446. It is not possible for a proxy to obey the= protocol invariants and selectively proxy based on the contents of the TLS= handshake between the proxy and the server a client wishes to connect to.= =C2=A0

More inline...

Probably the worst problem is rooted in Section 5.1.=C2=A0 The introduction= establishes this as being about proxying, but there are several places tha= t talk about not-proxying sometimes.

Selective non-proxying opens the document up to a whole new set of problems= that arise from poor designs for deciding not to proxy.=C2=A0 There is not= nearly enough detail here to address this problem properly.=C2=A0 A "= good" design for selective TLS proxying does not seem to be the basis of the recommendations.=C2=A0 I'll give a few exa= mples of problems.

From the Section 4.8 again:

the TLS proxy MUST conduct proper TLS protocol ch= ecks to avoid false identification of TLS handshakes, while taking special = care not to contribute to protocol ossification. =C2=A0

This practice has been directly responsible for more ossification than inte= rmediation, no matter what qualification exists. =C2=A0

If per-destination not-proxying is required, the proxy can connect to a ser= ver, determine that the server is on a non-proxy list, and then complete th= e handshake with the client (with a caveat regarding ECH here).=C2=A0 I can= guess why this doesn't happen (it's expensive and see also Section 5.4), but that doesn't excuse the pract= ice.

The following text from Section 5.3 is deeply problematic:

=C2=A0=C2=A0A decryption policy decision MAY be made based on the server =C2=A0=C2=A0certificate or other trustworthy parameters.=C2=A0 To verify po= ssession of
=C2=A0=C2=A0private keys that are associated with a particular server
=C2=A0=C2=A0certificate, the proxy SHOULD complete an out-of-band TLS hands= hake
=C2=A0=C2=A0with the same TLS server IP address and TCP port as targeted by= the
=C2=A0=C2=A0TLS client.

It is possible that the authors misunderstand how TLS works, but this check= won't work.=C2=A0 Not only because TLS 1.3 encrypts information, but b= ecause this is only necessary if the proxy forwards a ClientHello from the = client to the server.=C2=A0 At that point, it is too late and the damage has been done (see Andrei's review).


Unless I misunderstood it, the document is suggesting the same as you = listed.=C2=A0 Basically, the proxy makes a separate connection to the serve= r as a client (=E2=80=9Cout-of-band=E2=80=9D wrt to the originating client-= server connection), retrieves the server=E2=80=99s certificate from the proxy-server handshake, and determines whether the server is on a= non-proxying list or not.=C2=A0 If on the list, the proxy forwards the ori= ginating client CH as is to the server, and steps aways from the originatin= g client-server handshake.
<= br>
The proxy MUST generate a fresh ClientHello when doing this (= something Andrei and I previously mentioned). When the proxy makes its sepa= rate connection to the server, the server can behave differently when respo= nding to the proxy compared to when it responds to the client, and could pr= esent itself to the proxy as something innocuous=C2=A0that should not be pr= oxied. Assuming at this point that the proxy has held onto the client's= ClientHello (waiting for the response from the server to the proxy's C= lientHello), the proxy decides either to intercept this connection or allow= the client's ClientHello to go through to the server. When the proxy a= llows the client's ClientHello to go through to the server (without int= erception), there's no guarantee that the server will respond to the cl= ient the same way it did to the proxy, or even that the identity the server= presented to the proxy is the server's real identity.
If the proxy copies extensions unknown to it from the client&#= 39;s ClientHello to its own, then it will not be able to parse the response= from the server when the server acts on those unknown extensions. This cau= sed a year of delay in finishing TLS 1.3, and is bad for everyone. A malici= ous client and cooperating server don't even need to use an extensibili= ty point unknown to the proxy to evade a proxy selectively terminating conn= ections based on the TLS handshake between the proxy and server.
=
This sort of selective proxying is fundamentally broken and = should not be recommended as a best practice.

There are additional considerations in this approach (latency etc.). T= he document intentionally left out the details to implementations, but coul= d also cover them if needed.




There are a bunch of places where pure proxying - as described in the intro= duction - is not assumed.=C2=A0 This leads to the same problems already cit= ed.=C2=A0 For instance, in Section 4.2:

The proxy MAY remove cipher suites from a client-= initiated Client Hello message, add new cipher suites, and re-order them in= the proxy-initiated Client Hello message.

Will clean up those texts based on this and other discussions.

Best,
-Eric




_______________________________________________
OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec

_______________________________________________
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TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
--00000000000073d73c05ab89babd-- From nobody Tue Jul 28 17:54:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C194F3A0DD4; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:54:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4tDrQmAlYo1p; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 341D73A0DC0; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id l17so7707084ilq.13; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:54:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CGt7bxY0BXMjSgDBA80ElYDvPhSxDpD7tezN+8wy7sM=; b=oDiRGxFPzAGIRP4pKL3/T9ATAk40Azukh1Blv++HRaVjMOcc5FwjmsdSBINQiTJ9RK RaTp4EQz0Yz5nvAFQhfHFkd4gP40OFqE6uoSi8EUrmgFrZR+aa1U0M7bFa58ZhXdNJxV sMwE/kqizMQoJXVmzSmzB/tpRibcfttmNCfYNfzc4eSaR0YsIGHvGVH8XV0Q1eJ3yM+6 BQOtXArtugPbLou96/9G5hDEqNkcNu44yUfQ6SjKA8gKtA1UKPQYTwflE9XblqFO+bqW k/aYKU+mJ4pAev3RktTtvC1jg2FfMRDOSc4JBsL1/PgzOAUAWlY7EMkfetNRa7EPtjBJ tKxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CGt7bxY0BXMjSgDBA80ElYDvPhSxDpD7tezN+8wy7sM=; b=rjdNzvijfz3wFTL+IUtCP/X7VdtR2LhisM3Utmh9NoqgAk3NLg/pg6qG5omUa7i9Co bAJ4yQewW6A8OfsCS/5B0Lij9DotWa/q5lrYq9K1QWzby0C6b29wn7emadxWFxmL/3ih +ab4Ql208VSJ2FgKQ0XvScoTmuxuYnLWtCZ0DiyZjyIXq44eVcucOhgcnEHUkjiKOPyV crwG7HqBAi5GJf0n4zHHoFLIECKhQJ0yZek+cyLPRIOF5fNDXssVWCGFhcjSPzCO3syt aZgBJP5OGnUdayvN3OcwGTtvqv67mrguH/ZPK36p188RujOv2yWzBITAXvtKC5tyKEtL 9KNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533S7SKPpuCCdtZwlpNRr7593SRgtbr5Z4Hs97BnpRJDHqU5UqkV l4eNPb8aU6nvEe0lkFKwm3RNG/UWUWedkUTDsa+rgCq6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTTvemahmZZ3bSE+GZWjzTZoy92Y2+SPUNYWzLZ8JiZcohpxISGBzcGbN0BmgVl1kjpKZguHU0kkYjYJy2QTU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:858d:: with SMTP id f135mr15785591ilh.257.1595984071367; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:54:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:54:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a423d805ab89ff18" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 00:54:36 -0000 --000000000000a423d805ab89ff18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Oppose. Nothing new to add. thanks, Rob On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 10:35 AM Ron Bonica wrote: > Folks, > > > > This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp > . > > > > Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, > 2020. > > > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --000000000000a423d805ab89ff18 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oppose.

Nothing new to add.
<= br>
thanks,
Rob


On Sun, Jul 19, 202= 0 at 10:35 AM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Folks,

=C2=A0

This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp.

=C2=A0

Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0


Juniper Business Use Only

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--000000000000a423d805ab89ff18-- From nobody Tue Jul 28 18:12:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5FE3A0DF8; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vx0NtXZVslOX; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6245D3A0DF6; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B567BE5B; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:12:28 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hoo865xtAE_5; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:12:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43D26BE56; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:12:26 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1595985146; bh=11p5LGPbEANrywc3QyE9nzBj7XgusOTHnTxbt8cAxCw=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ESo2r5UKaeiXhcGNdjvCMnrCguIweEAaHPKNAsgUTh+ig/F92p6B/xOhvJy6CA5o/ ssSQ3/+yJrNpNk23Nr9C1AEGB+XzuE18TtK5iTIaP/OJMFjJ+uro3MkFLVImhnSj7m UDOMB9XzECeNCDFGEcCUlvqq1R1kH1hAPZZLEavc= To: Jen Linkova , opsec WG Cc: tls@ietf.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zeCGfhBSCWC5c6UOS6bjWrsWHQiLGGLJw" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] OpSec WGLC for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 01:12:34 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --zeCGfhBSCWC5c6UOS6bjWrsWHQiLGGLJw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="KCd8EYWUZ6FDBl4qfWHGYlKp9U4i1NNEt"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jen Linkova , opsec WG Cc: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <8fbc4a58-4f20-7fa5-99e8-fda6fcec76ee@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [TLS] OpSec WGLC for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact References: In-Reply-To: --KCd8EYWUZ6FDBl4qfWHGYlKp9U4i1NNEt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DC2B0F1C3CCD7A0F1E38C41E" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DC2B0F1C3CCD7A0F1E38C41E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMO this document is absolutely not ready to become an RFC. It basically ignores the purpose of TLS which is to prevent exactly the MITM attacks being espoused here (IMO). In ignoring that, it ignores all of the bad consequences of such MITM attacks. As evidence: "To proxy a TLS session, a TLS Proxy must be able to present a valid X.509 certificate to the TLS client to appear as a valid TLS Server;" That assumes that an x.509 data structure created on the fly, with no interaction with the named subject can be "valid." That is antithetical to the intent of x.509 and TLS. That is such a fundamental misconstruction of x.509, of PKI and of TLS that it alone means that the draft is sufficiently inaccurate to be unworthy of publication as an IETF consensus RFC. If really necessary I'm sure many other related problems can and will be found in the text. I hope that waste of effort is not needed. The basic problem here seem to me to be an effort to justify (and perhaps promote?) existing MITM practices without fairly or accurately describing their downsides. As I also commented on a related document: the effort expended on attempts to garner IETF consensus on such text is not worthwhile. If someone actually wrote truly objective text on the reasons why people deploy TLS MITM attack boxes and on the real downsides that would be different. This is nowhere near such objective text. My recommendation: declare this document dead. And don't bother with the supposed BCP. Instead, try to find someone who can write an evidence-based description of the falsifiable pros and cons of these TLS MITM products. And then send that to the ISE. S. PS: I'm sure someone will claim that being logical about this "ignores reality" so just to get in a comment on that ahead of time: reality includes lots of bad engineering - if and when we want to document that, there is an onus on us to say why it is bad and how to do better. That would require offering evidence as to the efficacy or otherwise of TLS MTIM boxes when compared to the benefits of using TLS as-designed. That evidence, in my experience, never seems to actually be offered by those who espouse these MITM attack products. --------------DC2B0F1C3CCD7A0F1E38C41E Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WqDh5eGQ8iJQ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FE273A0E76; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id l17so7801710ilq.13; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:52:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; 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List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 01:52:19 -0000 --00000000000022ac3505ab8ace0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 6:13 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > PS: I'm sure someone will claim that being logical about > this "ignores reality" so just to get in a comment on > that ahead of time: reality includes lots of bad > engineering... > I agree with this comment. In particular, I object to phrases along the lines of: "TLS 1.3 considerations: reduced effectiveness" Ignoring their aims, I don't think these products work, and I don't think the IETF should publish documents that make it seem like they do. I would support an ISE submission. thanks, Rob --00000000000022ac3505ab8ace0c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 6:13 PM Stephen F= arrell <stephen.farrell@cs.= tcd.ie> wrote:

PS: I'm sure someone will claim that being logical about
this "ignores reality" so just to get in a comment on
that ahead of time: reality includes lots of bad
engineering...

I agree with this commen= t. In particular, I object to phrases along the lines of:

"TLS 1.3 considerations: reduced effectiveness"

Ignoring their aims, I don't think these products work,= and I don't think the IETF should publish documents that make it seem = like they do.

I would support an ISE submission.

thanks,
Rob

--00000000000022ac3505ab8ace0c-- From nobody Tue Jul 28 20:26:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27383A0B38; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:26:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=ZbfGLsAX; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=M8NNWx55 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5fntAfm2KTKN; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BC273A0B31; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 20:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9925642A; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:26:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:26:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=cQmUMN7lwIXrTInPjDol4VYlC2DH JljCrhfrv9cMr8o=; b=ZbfGLsAXqQVJuGBMqLLSk3jjMhCZYduKkk67ln90ijFn A/1JhDFOIl+1CuRmWyAtpW5QhhBTofSpQrc8Jd4iL/EP7GgizLDsYb13QWd/XYsf vURWN4NIxrTlNsSJ/Exr6fP53cc/ZR60UQtniIUx+oWyQENbu6bje5fRwoo6E5lf 3r+XPf7XPyuNoUhUUv3sOf1OnjBAWkMAn28/pGOm+plnu+49gTHbHShrgm7PIOKT jKsAqOnxvirco2ACDgR6PpIP59gqJY4xwMU/dFY4jQ0qw6yxlNu5YrNxrb3NUsRe PiFSAWCEVpoCNljv3jX0BDBJSV/mYu04Dyy+p1y5mA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=cQmUMN 7lwIXrTInPjDol4VYlC2DHJljCrhfrv9cMr8o=; b=M8NNWx55AV4xjc1Jvs1WU3 ObrHDnR04uTczOlTfmRZvbvgrxema4sBEZ/1LA3O2ofU6cGead3/mEUQxvN3t+C3 K1e4mykmaywvfZn8L9D1MMl6p1m7PPARliV1AwydkTLe5ghCngrx+udEUnBaiOSk qap9TLnEBOba9UQQFczL1zSuoYPlhGhrvFsErownWUwCdLX7646x56ZK4G/lrmT7 t/kGMuj2ML1mZRzNdJnibG7zTxFrDEn9X9eIk4pa8HAqUh8wHkjURFSEo5DbyOQd y/ClvVz3jt0BEk2ye8r/7dnFc/hJdDAWCTeId+YBfslmvhHfhKbQLulx8jYLi3tQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrieefgdejtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhht ihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtf frrghtthgvrhhnpeekteeuieektdekleefkeevhfekffevvdevgfekgfeluefgvdejjeeg ffeigedtjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhroh hmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 367F0E00A6; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 23:26:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-128-gd51a832-fm-20200728.001-gd51a8328 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <90e5b7d5-a015-40f6-9d5b-b263c85cb2d3@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 13:26:13 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Cc: "Ron Bonica" , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 03:26:36 -0000 Hi Eric, On Wed, Jul 29, 2020, at 07:18, Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > In any case, the proxy has to conduct selective proxying in a safe, > non-disruptive manner. I will try to be clearer on this point. This requires design work and this document is a poor vehicle for that. It needs a separate document that documents the design, the properties of that design, and the assumptions that it requires to achieve those properties. The TLS working group has decided not to undertake work in this area. That TLS working group decision needs to be respected by other parts of the IETF. 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR07MB5340.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4aba07b5-9135-4b84-ec1d-08d8339b1f63 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Jul 2020 08:41:01.1985 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5F1zYOSROBSwiet2KgEswb9SEPAig1IbjF8AN8kO9w1t9q8/sMDVvjj2kOsRKvCnoFJGUtUtyyErW0uvwK+zLg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0701MB2632 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] OpSec WGLC for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:41:09 -0000 From: Jen Linkova =0A= Sent: 28 July 2020 23:14=0A= To: tom petch=0A= On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 2:07 AM tom petch wrote:=0A= >> This email starts the WG Last Call for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact ,=0A= >> Impact of TLS 1.3 to Operational Network Security Practices,=0A= >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact/.=0A= =0A= > =0A= > OPPOSE (yes, I am shouting)=0A= >=0A= > This is nowhere near ready and putting it forward so soon is ... well lud= icrous comes to mind.=0A= >=0A= > After WG adoption, comments were made to which there was no acknowledgeme= nt, no response, I was about to oppose the adoption of the other I-D from = these authors on the grounds that until they respond to comments nothing el= se should happen because when they do there are more comments waiting to be= aired. I am still of that view.=0A= =0A= Sorry, it's partially my fault. I did explicitly ask the authors to=0A= address your comments and submit a new version. I should have=0A= double-checked that the new version incorporates the feedback.=0A= =0A= =0A= Jen, it is more than that. I think that the IETF way of working is to make = comments, get an acknowledgement and a response, from author, others, Chair= , AD i.a., discuss the issues, accept or reject changes, new version, rinse= and repeat. In this case, the next post after my comments was WGLC. This= is not the process I expect. ( I thought there were other comments at adop= tion but cannot see them now). I did see Kathleen promising a further revi= ew; that would be helpful.=0A= =0A= And as I alluded to, four weeks ago was a quiet time, a time to progress th= is. Now, cut-off and post cut-off, it is that time of madness in the IETF = when everyone comes out of hibernation and posts revised I-D. I track TEAS= and they have just posted 484 - yes four hundred and eighty four - pages o= f revised I-Ds which will keep me quiet for much of August. Interesting as = TLS is, it is behind them in the queue.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch =0A= =0A= Dear authors, would you be able to address Tom's comments ASAP so the=0A= new revision can be reviewed during the WGLC?=0A= =0A= > I do see that a revised I-D has just appeared in among the thousand or so= I-D that appear around the time of an IETF meeting, a timing that I someti= mes think is designed to let it slip through unnoticed. Given all those ot= her I-D - silly authors - it may be more than three weeks before I get my t= houghts together.=0A= =0A= Just to clarify: would you prefer not to have the WGLC around IETF=0A= weeks at all?=0A= =0A= --=0A= SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry=0A= From nobody Wed Jul 29 02:20:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C9C3A0CD8; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:20:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7_zYSqpuadbY; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74C373A0CAB; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id d14so21494248qke.13; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:20:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PCIBqJNdT+XgBvyacPtUjdn0fM1trOUIZ3mxyNMVfz8=; b=mcc/fneBuLGITTECZQIsb8ktdC//4ylP765crwWy0rlkr1K+sDr0Y0kXdK5GL2CUeG NypqGRUWV7XkrGhykxLspWdKPdd+kcbJjQ7dDuWKIppJO+L9cxTUnP7LDsxVWb+miJ3C 1oe6z+tiFlnVfGXvfNLHdwUz035QDRo8AsIzKS58NA3T4CSsAwCQfcApBvJAT19Kh/gz 0JOYQyXsxUK2P3k3CdM8zmsMPYhoRaAtf+v8VReEQqzAv9QiMNWM1NZYQQ4j7wS6DOC4 qRAmB7xfiHNBotZGM+6tdFa5V/z2fS+3d4dIt73pbQRnM6L43r14BmzfR0klfdDdsbW7 CNKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PCIBqJNdT+XgBvyacPtUjdn0fM1trOUIZ3mxyNMVfz8=; b=tsIzL6L0WvvXp/3tMB+rai8ai5kFxPOkNevuAIZe1UUpI6OP5m8rpAIntHHGA7i7NV QHJU0r8LPSDk2sIZGVi8T0BQzfMSUxsSPGQwefy5G27V2Z7WUkogPFKCFHV6I//HiLF8 n6IxTdzaVGVedPEHf+/w2OKOyIMgMwILUrE8oSnotrSU4ptUMKBjOjomvIXWx0kT8Uy5 jNubriLRI0tCQ+3FpN/GIHWPHfnQXORGlbLnvL8uZ4cc4oB6rWGfOsY0IkYrxy8QAcpT qS4apbsJE6pTTwvs7AotfIPR2cPNlT8RqxyZxFhxP+Q7RUZB//ddQrnkm9pWL1sXhOf6 bkXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5311DdQ0OiWBZEF+g9ltHFwxrreT+1v1MuKW818Sw2bhZHEmoqhD 9G0b4IeKFP25vAts98IFIpubHVye0VjJS8IczS+ZvHYqMKU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyrZuMJIbJDZwqi+qGtNT5nwHm7hckpQrKMed4dyoRCp7l9MUeDQWyfp6RtUgw4Omqf22i3ldmgNEVqN88P5rw= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9c4b:: with SMTP id f72mr25741472qke.332.1596014443537; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 02:20:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jen Linkova Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 19:20:32 +1000 Message-ID: To: tom petch Cc: opsec WG , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] OpSec WGLC for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 09:20:47 -0000 On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 6:41 PM tom petch wrote: > Jen, it is more than that. I think that the IETF way of working is to mak= e comments, get an acknowledgement and a response, from author, others, Cha= ir, AD i.a., discuss the issues, accept or reject changes, new version, rin= se and repeat. In this case, the next post after my comments was WGLC. Just to clarify: - I saw your comments not being acknowledged/confirmed so we discussed it with the authors and the proposed course of actions was: -01 is posted to incorporate your comments and then we issue the WGLC. So strictly speaking the next port after your comments was -01 (which was *suppossed* to address your comments) and then WGLC. >This is not the process I expect. ( I thought there were other comments at= adoption but cannot see them now). I did see Kathleen promising a further= review; that would be helpful. As I can see Kathleen confirmed that her comments had been addressed. > And as I alluded to, four weeks ago was a quiet time, a time to progress = this. Now, cut-off and post cut-off, it is that time of madness in the IET= F when everyone comes out of hibernation and posts revised I-D. I track TE= AS and they have just posted 484 - yes four hundred and eighty four - pages= of revised I-Ds which will keep me quiet for much of August. Interesting a= s TLS is, it is behind them in the queue. I'm sorry about adding more stuff onto your plate. Lesson learner, we'll try to avoid issuing adoption/WGLC around IETF week. On the other hand...I have a weird feeling that a lot of people: 1) do not comment outside of adoption call//WGLC 2) are more active around the IETF week. So issuing the WGLC in the trough between IETF meetings caused an undesirable outcome of people not paying enough attention. But thanks for the comments, I'll take it into account - let's consider it my learning curve.. BTW -02 has been posted so I hope your comments have been incorporated. --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Jul 29 04:20:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADE43A0934; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j0c8ZFRo16Fi; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 241063A0924; 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Wed, 29 Jul 2020 12:20:11 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 06TB2TX8030909; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:20:06 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.57]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 32gjqbacx2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Jul 2020 04:20:06 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 07:20:05 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 07:20:05 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Watson Ladd , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" CC: "tls@ietf.org" , Jen Linkova , "OpSec Chairs" , OPSEC Thread-Topic: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AdZd8qs4MVhjKcpfSaSC3eC5PK0rEQCv6iMAAH8Fd4AAUf7RAABaakYAAA6JtwA= Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 11:20:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4937FCE4-23EF-4585-8675-C07F3B347AC6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.41.240] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Wed, 29 Jul 2020 07:42:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e0e6a7FlJjNr; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 07:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC5183A0B84; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 07:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.31.15.242] (helo=Williams-MacBook-Pro.local) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4) (envelope-from ) id 1k0nHY-0003PJ-W1; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 10:42:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 10:42:13 -0400 From: Bill Frantz To: Jen Linkova cc: tom petch , opsec WG , tls@ietf.org X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mailsmith 2.4.3 (480) X-ELNK-Trace: 3a5e54fa03f1b3e21aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f3104690fb6afc49ea7b4b604e004eae350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.31.15.242 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] OpSec WGLC for draft-ietf-opsec-ns-impact X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 14:42:22 -0000 On 7/29/20 at 5:20 AM, furry13@gmail.com (Jen Linkova) wrote: >So issuing the WGLC in the trough between IETF meetings caused an >undesirable outcome of people not paying enough attention. >But thanks for the comments, I'll take it into account - let's >consider it my learning curve.. As a long-time lurker on the TLS list, I don't think these=20 comments apply to the TLS working group. I see the ongoing=20 business of draft, comment, new draft etc. going on=20 continuously, only to be interrupted with email about IETF=20 scheduling and agendas. I would suggest that anything requiring input from the TLS=20 working group be presented between IETF meetings, when there are=20 many TLS experts who will take the time to review and comment. Cheers - Bill --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | "I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn=20 up the 408-348-7900 | intelligence. There's a knob called=20 "brightness", but www.pwpconsult.com | it doesn't work. -- Gallagher From nobody Wed Jul 29 15:46:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B904A3A08FF; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 15:46:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=VdiRNDs7; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=Thk4pvOO Received: from mail.ietf.org 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X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 23:26:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ixaetkDmsLVGAJB8fno2Qs6Kbeyv0BvhR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="rpZzDjIQiMxDRRykAbUBVOJmV6zqSzwqH"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Nick Harper Cc: Ron Bonica , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: --rpZzDjIQiMxDRRykAbUBVOJmV6zqSzwqH Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6D9FB51817743AE999DF5FFC" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6D9FB51817743AE999DF5FFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 29/07/2020 23:46, Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > It was the motivation of this draft to help reduce/prevent > non-compliance, as mentioned earlier. TLS MITM products, by design, do not comply with the TLS protocol, which is a 2 party protocol. There is *only* non-compliance in this space. 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AOAM531RF6/qa3S2EypDLE6QxZ/Rcru9G+++gP7KCatCuVdHZInmmVLE fMx5mhnL4YzWT5NwilE7F/Ac+u6briUMtolCUU9TCg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwb+7PnLfodjPYd9f3ZWRHWNLkXB32XEdaglPbeTANVGCanmygXQQaEKomjKIOfF7euY2UOBMEtgAt0QCia6Eo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:549:: with SMTP id q9mr144126ljp.199.1596067035724; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 16:57:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 16:56:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Nick Harper , Ron Bonica , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3d30305ab9d50e5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 23:57:21 -0000 --000000000000b3d30305ab9d50e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 4:27 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 29/07/2020 23:46, Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > > It was the motivation of this draft to help reduce/prevent > > non-compliance, as mentioned earlier. > TLS MITM products, by design, do not comply with the TLS > protocol, which is a 2 party protocol. > Without taking a position on this document, I do not believe this statement to be correct. 1. TLS doesn't document at all how the server is validated, so from a technical perspective a MITM proxy is simply a TLS server with a certificate issued by a locally installed CA attached to a TLS client that connects to the server (what is known in SIP as a B2BUA). 2. TLS 1.3 specifically documents invariants for TLS terminating middleboxes, including MITM proxies ( https://tools.ietf.org/rfcmarkup?doc=8446#section-9.3). 3. Ignoring MITM proxies, TLS is widely deployed in operating configurations where the client connects to a TLS reverse proxy (i.e., a CDN) which then connects to the server; this is also not a two-party situation. What text in TLS do you believe terminating proxies (in either direction) do not conform to? -Ekr --000000000000b3d30305ab9d50e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 4:27 PM Steph= en Farrell <stephen.farrell= @cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

On 29/07/2020 23:46, Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote:
> It was the motivation of this draft to help reduce/prevent
> non-compliance, as mentioned earlier.
TLS MITM products, by design, do not comply with the TLS
protocol, which is a 2 party protocol.

= Without taking a position on this document, I do not believe this statement= to be correct.

1. TLS doesn't document at all= how the server is validated, so from a technical perspective a MITM proxy = is simply a TLS server with a certificate issued by a locally installed CA = attached to a TLS client that connects to the server (what is known in SIP = as a B2BUA).
2. TLS 1.3 specifically documents invariants for TLS= terminating middleboxes, including MITM proxies (https://tools.ietf.org/rfcmarkup= ?doc=3D8446#section-9.3).
3. Ignoring MITM proxies, TLS is wi= dely deployed in operating configurations where the client connects to a TL= S reverse proxy (i.e., a CDN) which then connects to the server; this is al= so not a two-party situation.

What text in TLS do = you believe terminating proxies (in either direction) do not conform to?

-Ekr

--000000000000b3d30305ab9d50e5-- From nobody Wed Jul 29 17:06:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C823A0A98; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:06:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q4BQYaLU1NYT; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C10E3A0A8C; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2ABBE47; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 01:06:50 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iOeTplstRjHf; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 01:06:48 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2A3A2BE39; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 01:06:48 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1596067608; bh=AQ62cupX2BDJrNrZqC8o2z6NLJ0qwUTSiCNGFJSN+FA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=f0N03X3CiMRN/lFMl9hfGmCidZiIRi/E4gq7hq3s+HewELnE6KZcrY61xZCsn2uAJ YFjno9efcumLRQaCKW1VfqfieqA8nnJjvJELN0frkRnCvaDHnHDxIFhSjXTAQ21UZl ix1qlFUvnHpUk/iZDlt0Aa9jujBj5O5pjIj+E0Z0= To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Nick Harper , Ron Bonica , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NJ3eRDARPis9ZGANU0srbizE33sIGVEAH" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 00:06:55 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --NJ3eRDARPis9ZGANU0srbizE33sIGVEAH Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HrC0ZzfT9KRBimIl8NTnNkCfiUXqFFdbw"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Nick Harper , Ron Bonica , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: <32561228-08fc-79ea-1b2e-f5de87b9c8fe@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --HrC0ZzfT9KRBimIl8NTnNkCfiUXqFFdbw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CC25420F0AF5E2F11BAA4E66" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CC25420F0AF5E2F11BAA4E66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 30/07/2020 00:56, Eric Rescorla wrote: > What text in TLS do you believe terminating proxies (in either directio= n) > do not conform to? I gtend to start with the abstract: "TLS allows client/server applications to communicate over the Internet in a way that is designed to prevent eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery." I think that text has remained through various iterations. More importantly, the analyses done for tls1.3 afaik do not consider such 3rd parties except as an attacker. I'm by no means denying the fact that MITM boxen are deployed, but the idea that some of them are "conformant" and some are not seems bogus. 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SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=icloud.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDoLJ4m60rbG for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mr85p00im-ztdg06021801.me.com (mr85p00im-ztdg06021801.me.com [17.58.23.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E98D03A0ADD for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:28:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1596068938; bh=Gp1xw8ppSTiTWLneG8nYLTJafBXg+FsCRw6Lxox+w6o=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=wD58WJBoxL8hlijb/rF0mju6EfWJOkdNFvO6DHc7n4b4GmUfZ3q0OTsL8EEqWKyCD 3f5YDzYb3jDcSVGWE9+F7COI9lIBD3jIDbsNlkx0IoAPOtGA4DxLhVauc9Wg94ubs+ BsvZvIaIQN4JDOlVZ5lPNDTPNdhr+2Zt4KuroycpHbULLhUKv6zZ1rCbN8gaQ+ZzAb vrhUoereEMZqtz0ohvzSF65wSvE2up9lVC5aTVvLORZX9tKbGB1JCc0ttgGHC4a5Kx zQk7vMlv6j3UIzsF8cfbvc6NiIMigD3Ys7zD8+cYFuQLGJOHDqCKPc/rM7jKohFydz JToydMVw5qI2g== Received: from [17.232.176.230] (unknown [17.232.176.230]) by mr85p00im-ztdg06021801.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 35081180991; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 00:28:58 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3622.0.7\)) From: Carrick Bartle In-Reply-To: <32561228-08fc-79ea-1b2e-f5de87b9c8fe@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:28:57 -0700 Cc: Eric Rescorla , Ron Bonica , OPSEC , Nick Harper , "tls@ietf.org" , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6D2456B4-4725-47B9-AAF9-67C0ABDFA802@icloud.com> References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> <32561228-08fc-79ea-1b2e-f5de87b9c8fe@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3622.0.7) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-07-29_18:2020-07-29, 2020-07-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2004280000 definitions=main-2007300000 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 00:29:01 -0000 > I gtend to start with the abstract: "TLS allows > client/server applications to communicate over the > Internet in a way that is designed to prevent > eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery." It seems clear that TLS proxies obey the letter, if not the spirit, of = that statement. However, it seems to me that no further discussion in the TLSWG is = necessary given Martin's assertion that "The TLS working group has = decided not to undertake work in this area." > On Jul 29, 2020, at 5:06 PM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 30/07/2020 00:56, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> What text in TLS do you believe terminating proxies (in either = direction) >> do not conform to? >=20 > I gtend to start with the abstract: "TLS allows > client/server applications to communicate over the > Internet in a way that is designed to prevent > eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery." >=20 > I think that text has remained through various > iterations. >=20 > More importantly, the analyses done for tls1.3 > afaik do not consider such 3rd parties except as > an attacker. >=20 > I'm by no means denying the fact that MITM boxen > are deployed, but the idea that some of them are > "conformant" and some are not seems bogus. >=20 > S. > = <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc>_______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Wed Jul 29 17:35:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15DD3A0AE1 for ; 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Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:35:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> <32561228-08fc-79ea-1b2e-f5de87b9c8fe@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <32561228-08fc-79ea-1b2e-f5de87b9c8fe@cs.tcd.ie> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:35:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Nick Harper , Ron Bonica , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d05e3f05ab9ddae2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 00:35:58 -0000 --000000000000d05e3f05ab9ddae2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 5:06 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 30/07/2020 00:56, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > What text in TLS do you believe terminating proxies (in either direction) > > do not conform to? > > I gtend to start with the abstract: "TLS allows > client/server applications to communicate over the > Internet in a way that is designed to prevent > eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery." > > I think that text has remained through various > iterations. > Yes, and in this context, the MITM proxy is a server from the client's perspective and a client from the origin server's perspective. More importantly, the analyses done for tls1.3 > afaik do not consider such 3rd parties except as > an attacker. > I would say rather that those analyses consider them as protocol endpoints and address the two individual connections terminated by the proxy and have nothing to say about the composition of those two connections. I'm by no means denying the fact that MITM boxen > are deployed, but the idea that some of them are > "conformant" and some are not seems bogus. > Well, they are either conformant with the text of 8446 S 9.3 or they are not (and just to be clear, being conformant with 9.3 does not make them good for the reason indicated above). -Ekr --000000000000d05e3f05ab9ddae2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 5:06 PM Steph= en Farrell <stephen.farrell= @cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

On 30/07/2020 00:56, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> What text in TLS do you believe terminating proxies (in either directi= on)
> do not conform to?

I gtend to start with the abstract: "TLS allows
client/server applications to communicate over the
Internet in a way that is designed to prevent
eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery."

I think that text has remained through various
iterations.

Yes, and in this context, t= he MITM proxy is a server from the client's perspective and a client fr= om the origin server's perspective.


=
More importantly, the analyses done for tls1.3
afaik do not consider such 3rd parties except as
an attacker.

I would say rather that th= ose analyses consider them as protocol endpoints and address the two indivi= dual connections terminated by the proxy and have nothing to say about the = composition of those two connections.


I'm by no means denying the fact that MITM boxen
are deployed, but the idea that some of them are
"conformant" and some are not seems bogus.
<= br>
Well, they are either conformant with the text of 8446 S 9.3 = or they are not (and just to be clear, being conformant with 9.3 does not m= ake them good for the reason indicated above).

-Ekr


--000000000000d05e3f05ab9ddae2-- From nobody Wed Jul 29 17:48:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F913A0B00; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:48:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LjPq3-Rb05Tc; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A6863A0AFE; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id a5so11289041ioa.13; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:48:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GWFzlXlHBhRtQEGEjms8HjFvHiHbBVluW9WoF2P7DJ8=; b=qGW9b7ZsN3si4jb79ocwdnYZfCgjaFaVXByduR7POkN52C3tOSzy8LmwDjtcjqHG7v BHQZ7I4VHXZGV3Z83wHqkUHE3EzVIUgWWpWx73p7bmxf3TEaYcEtX0/ND9jLzRhMeRIb AK6YBT+a4uUKb8PB/RgJuzv0R6KB2TwaMoS9lTYADT3ygJXchEjhFX73wgzl4hgR0rpw 5q7uwsejZ5lvgphuPqCSor0zWhYY5XjueSWc70eHfDO/vHN6ijnzHlDMCp0w8p460dqO xQ8YgCEqpwktSlpSMQv+uMQHwF/5jT4H8njYHfVpTxSp2Ksv45NOhEBrcaiGcgi2ioYy a+uw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GWFzlXlHBhRtQEGEjms8HjFvHiHbBVluW9WoF2P7DJ8=; b=oArTuRNqr0RJ0ilxXrDpVy9fOshLMyOvs0e3J9rQRt3MxcFtWHi7Y9dQ0f2LR6hH9n jK95mcmefJ4Qi4jDB00Ne8xkcrxtC2Qkh0oUAZrc+gJwYxD2rE5osGHHaGQA0MJcRmp3 vO0WP1uHamjaNenIuNOwsAR1KAaWJAfrvKtnvRCMZsjDkBQqmvxdNcPjh5yOVf3MSkjT OHNJtVggxw8Q99OJx+yBYnWnJIM96mD50U1d6NkLNDyZJpf4bfJnABdPFw0UWpclvkEQ W7AkucnvPCxMyjo97kSuWFSkcxkyumBKk1PFmJylBcQyUV/mWIFtTafd7xCy18gN+sc+ a2zg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531FpNa1DnxZtYoUJXVIYxaCLpdcW8XhY3+Uuou4Xy/GJuJy8hRe OCnzHaKpSnG+Mj0JW0dp/aFyOsJboIuRaEu0Nqs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw48JmRORP13IlK3WRrV1CPIWrszub9eDnXYr+3+BEKjlGgILvbgDpeqVes0oqrKJWKYJP2oJUOOMAsYZMeanI= X-Received: by 2002:a02:108a:: with SMTP id 132mr766594jay.131.1596070097755; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:48:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> <32561228-08fc-79ea-1b2e-f5de87b9c8fe@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 17:48:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Stephen Farrell , Ron Bonica , OPSEC , Nick Harper , "tls@ietf.org" , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000036a58f05ab9e07f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 00:48:21 -0000 --00000000000036a58f05ab9e07f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 5:36 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > I'm by no means denying the fact that MITM boxen >> are deployed, but the idea that some of them are >> "conformant" and some are not seems bogus. >> > > Well, they are either conformant with the text of 8446 S 9.3 or they are > not (and just to be clear, being conformant with 9.3 does not make them > good for the reason indicated above). > This argument doesn't seem baseless, but I think these MITM documents also presume IETF consensus on the current PKI system, and I am not sure that has ever been tested. thanks, Rob --00000000000036a58f05ab9e07f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 5:36 PM Eric Resc= orla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
I'm by no means denying the fact that MITM boxen
are deployed, but the idea that some of them are
"conformant" and some are not seems bogus.
<= br>
Well, they are either conformant with the text of 8446 S 9.3 = or they are not (and just to be clear, being conformant with 9.3 does not m= ake them good for the reason indicated above).

This argument doesn't seem baseless, but I think = these MITM documents also presume IETF consensus on the current PKI system,= and I am not sure that has ever been tested.

than= ks,
Rob

=C2=A0
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Wed, 29 Jul 2020 21:26:02 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.114]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 32j460uvv1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Jul 2020 21:26:02 -0400 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.119) by ustx2ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.121) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 20:26:01 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Wed, 29 Jul 2020 20:26:01 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Eric Rescorla , Stephen Farrell CC: Ron Bonica , OPSEC , Nick Harper , "tls@ietf.org" , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Thread-Topic: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AQHWZShvBNRDUlrsVEq2Ye+Fh4dCL6kd+OuAgAGExACAAAtGgIAACFiAgAAC1YCAAAf1AP//yx8A Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 01:26:01 +0000 Message-ID: <3AC7B7C6-E616-40DA-95A3-A8DE7927E17F@akamai.com> References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> <32561228-08fc-79ea-1b2e-f5de87b9c8fe@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.42.132] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Wed, 29 Jul 2020 22:24:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <34226646-93F3-4592-A972-A55B160D5B78@cisco.com> <9e413fb1-da38-6a1f-8fca-a0dd5a6b6ebd@cs.tcd.ie> <32561228-08fc-79ea-1b2e-f5de87b9c8fe@cs.tcd.ie> <3AC7B7C6-E616-40DA-95A3-A8DE7927E17F@akamai.com> <16DCF5D7-CC18-4015-ADE1-D67A3EBAEDB5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <16DCF5D7-CC18-4015-ADE1-D67A3EBAEDB5@cisco.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 22:23:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Ron Bonica , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cbc1e405aba1e175" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:24:12 -0000 --000000000000cbc1e405aba1e175 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:48 PM Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > To echo the ickiness part=E2=80=A6 Putting on my end user hat, if I hav= e to take > it with an enterprise device on the enterprise network, I would rather it > be done securely, respecting my privacy... If I=E2=80=99m on my home net= work, I > want an easy way to detect and reject it, no matter it is from a vendor, > provider or state. At this time, there seems no easy way on either side. > I don't think this makes sense. thanks, Rob --000000000000cbc1e405aba1e175 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:48 PM Eric Wang= (ejwang) <ejwang=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
To echo the ickiness part=E2=80=A6 =C2=A0 Putting on my end user hat, if I = have to take it with an enterprise device on the enterprise network, I woul= d rather it be done securely, respecting my privacy...=C2=A0 If I=E2=80=99m= on my home network, I want an easy way to detect and reject it, no matter it is from a vendor, provider or state.=C2=A0 At this time, = there seems no easy way on either side.

I don't think this makes sense.

thanks,
Rob
=C2=A0
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charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support this draft and agree with the points made below. Paul From: Arnaud.Taddei.IETF Sent: 28 July 2020 09:36 To: Jen Linkova Cc: OPSEC; OpSec Chairs; tls@ietf.org Subject: Re: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp I strongly support this work as it represents capabilities that are being d= eveloped, deployed and used in practice. It has good intentions and provide= s a good approach in the context of defense in depth approaches. No securit= y cannot be just on both ends of the communication. One can dream about it = but that is not how reality is. Removing this possibility is a limit to the= overall defense. I do not understand the reasons behind ignoring reality and the IETF would = have, in my naive mind, a strong interest in getting this work under good c= ommunity adoption so that it is kept in good control with validated best pr= actices. Everyone would win. I support this draft Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. =1B$B!>!>!>!>!>!>!>=1B(B Original Message =1B$B!>!>!>!>!>!>!>=1B(B On Thursday 23 July 2020 03:30, Jen Linkova wrote: > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published. > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org wrote: > > > Folks, > > This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. > > Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. > > > > Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > OPSEC mailing list > > OPSEC@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > -- > > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls --_000_CWLP265MB0643AFFDE43DF92784A14775D2710CWLP265MB0643GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support this draft and agree with the points made = below.

 

Paul

 

From: Arnaud.T= addei.IETF
Sent: 28 July 2020 09:36
To: Jen Linkova
Cc: OPSEC; OpSec Chairs; tls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-p= roxy-bp

 

I strongly support this work as it represents capabi= lities that are being developed, deployed and used in practice. It has good= intentions and provides a good approach in the context of defense in depth= approaches. No security cannot be just on both ends of the communication. One can dream about it but that is= not how reality is. Removing this possibility is a limit to the overall de= fense.

I do not understand the reasons behind ignoring reality and the IETF would = have, in my naive mind, a strong interest in getting this work under good c= ommunity adoption so that it is kept in good control with validated best pr= actices. Everyone would win.

I support this draft


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

=1B$B!>!>!>!>!>!>!>=1B(B Original Message =1B$B!>!>!>!>!>!>!>=1B(B
On Thursday 23 July 2020 03:30, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote= :

> One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and
> explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published.
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica
> rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:
>
> > Folks,
> > This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-pro= xy-bp.
> > Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.
> >
> >           =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =     Ron
> >
> >
> > Juniper Business Use Only
> >
> > OPSEC mailing list
> > OPSEC@ietf.org
> > https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec
>
> --
>
> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
>
> TLS mailing list
> TLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/tls


_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/tls

 

--_000_CWLP265MB0643AFFDE43DF92784A14775D2710CWLP265MB0643GBRP_-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 05:04:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908A53A10C4; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:03:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vO06cVBKgEUA; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FB4D3A07D7; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com with SMTP id y17so14284186ybm.12; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:03:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T/v+rz6kg9tH1VeHNm0DZaXzOJP63ZInGslUhyP1NjY=; b=VaSQzBbkx9NSoTCGD2cb+cOhoeTyTlruuSXHOQd3ypVczp2rQw2QK9piWdBX1Jbs1z 3t6qUuvM569oRCAxVHYQ28E+tcO5ascoboZ79iQqujEETjvmAWt8XplUQGpjCmNDYpmH ev2xirrM5mi1iOjdpYT7HP2VF2MCsBuiQEHV5tYugAqM9d+MJaIjzXXF5V+IAAjrnG1j mLvjRw3UQT5hsEAlJeiwOzfAzfay9nsR1uDNKRyjBHNGQLgrt7nhOU4Wcj7xutjE0SUx kcwCwww0E9QSCX5ROBbVBjSE5LIXWL+JgFpUAQFmMAbu1HLqBBGmEVAnjpxxJC3LmwsZ jgsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T/v+rz6kg9tH1VeHNm0DZaXzOJP63ZInGslUhyP1NjY=; b=JPH5V2SS/rJPpX22LJQt0Xr8A5Q6LkFHuPrPQy2203i5OMrl58j4V981DUikSEjHe5 ngQbugUWBaVSKRnba0Mczdz9MViZgyyC3R1WXooyDmzxXjmdUtB3blfX6zJ/Lw9TAZQE Uk9RkdA/G26cj3BYWicTAj4L1u2EDHT9sJGssTHcofx/ivstqNWCYv/rcgVq3mkBjMxO GEuVUMQVtvCW15aYVUOKqrE6/5hm1IBPubosLnbjaBNArEdntegCYxCB3XNYlCqplWZW REhCjJSX6PnYaQKw/j/bQrQRJK556d4MffJJnNAyf9kqPQBEXJjXH1yLByLV/nG6pDRR Bllw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533YC+uaTMVPSWq1EBXg/kCtj0hDX7gL+qb/ykoeIdTUZEe3dYBt +MBAcs+G4/iuSR80iQh+JMqDq7FgWHH8hKsaRdU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyGOyrPoZliAw+GatM1hBZg0aE7uYRturxpD3jUVysivnMyNGL8Kewtnn8QTB35Q/TcHRAMepbg51LKdvXDW8E= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d4b:: with SMTP id 72mr3876791ybn.22.1596110633437; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:03:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9F2FDA20-12AA-4523-905D-7C9380B7A390@ll.mit.edu> <43A56381-0BA8-4123-A2D5-950FD1EDFC86@cisco.com> <845E6D98-DD1C-4FD7-AEF6-A262C10B35A8@ll.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <845E6D98-DD1C-4FD7-AEF6-A262C10B35A8@ll.mit.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:03:40 +0300 Message-ID: To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" Cc: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Stephen Farrell , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" , OpSec Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000540d3905aba777bc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:03:56 -0000 --000000000000540d3905aba777bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peace, On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 4:18 PM Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL wrote: > in this particular case, instead of "if you want to do this, then do it > that way, and I'll help you inter-operate" I prefer "if you want to do th= is > - you're on your own, don't seek a blessing or advice from me". > I don't think this is how it works. I would personally prefer an explicit "this is not recommended or in any way endorsed". I've already heard that "IETF considers this a grey area to be defined in future, and some interoperability is outlined in 8446" in middlebox sales pitches. > -- T=C3=B6ma > --000000000000540d3905aba777bc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peace,

On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 4:18 PM Blumenthal, Uri - = 0553 - MITLL <uri@ll.mit.edu> wrote:
in this particular case, instead of "if you want to do this, then = do it that way, and I'll help you inter-operate" I prefer "if= you want to do this - you're on your own, don't seek a blessing or= advice from me".

I don't think this is how it works.

I would personally prefer an explicit= "this is not recommended or in any way endorsed".

I've already heard that "IET= F considers this a grey area to be defined in future, and some interoperabi= lity is outlined in 8446" in middlebox sales pitches.

--
T=C3=B6ma
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
--000000000000540d3905aba777bc-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 05:12:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BD03A10DD; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:12:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7wtLneH14kah; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8B773A1163; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id n141so12120374ybf.3; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:11:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tbeFglOl4uWLlnsJncSHo+0ycHtMcdAJcba4Hit/QpQ=; b=AslA3ea0EEiSj6y8uWY3ZwClk58+0SSNJehVNyHs3f/1A1x3VTZjpp4vsY+M0jSoSo 1QCqMLMQC9P6ZzZg1GpXy4hgdKm0rY8DQ4oTgWb1GkGuP3Y1mwiDiPL0H150CpQ5oiw0 xLZzDmwzV4+tfyJj/8lquLADVXaldLIxuNAUYCA+5ZwK9TDtjYAF9nOyZ/nYAtla1uOB tuRXbqEwuxpErfm/xLVYLlw0FV6pxviTQcuydg7Sk0ZNWfuEw1rPi14JAUWZDY3yC4zE 84kj3Y+/y18VcU/pdufBQzYpukcw70OxtBMSm2ItgsO1NQWK/soxQ7PfCv3xqUyvOR8/ 9f6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tbeFglOl4uWLlnsJncSHo+0ycHtMcdAJcba4Hit/QpQ=; b=HHIOW7sOhUdPRjPUfthjVfDyE5n5OY+PUZ7hSNMLhbZfAJbJ3hMFQuWeWHCHAfzRhQ vmV5k/ocA/JQi+o2vGGpHGah8bngclH5LHJnkH3/NXReg78Vr//FHfvSHb9rOUtJle03 TxxUqtTkKF5NUX47HYrP/hBptunOeE3Ky43uYGH1TJf8b2lvdkFYMUayjqMqRXj8IGvO L21GYRccb13zuvCUQfVlYpFrwQ8Flyv3StUj91flRhgIJQylsPTeQcFOEX/gpP/eVa8D LPTgcdOEJ9Gz9f/NrHYH5C7Xjale0xXraHAsbAEDLZ/qndqY1mJydEHWKQxywWtZG9rE PAlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532V+4T3VzaiJ9jE6YuaIi+ErPoS+1iG0lLUu064mpLstqY9Aclk cNBPSNXcDlVW1cniO3E3uof5ex7DDGNHtl4xFzg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwoiVGXO/BHQ16G/u6004CapLdUZC8cPN2BCYszR4p7q7lWiJkaw4wIVCYzYRhbjrtWC4abzMUeSSIaQVfhMBk= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c60b:: with SMTP id k11mr3839262ybf.482.1596111088886; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 05:11:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4937FCE4-23EF-4585-8675-C07F3B347AC6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:11:16 +0300 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Watson Ladd , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000079a80705aba79293" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 12:12:04 -0000 --00000000000079a80705aba79293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peace, On Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 2:20 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > Also, a CDN is not a proxy. It **IS** an entity that the origin has > contracted with to perform certain functions. > It is (in all but a couple of implementations I think) a *proxy* that the origin has contracted with. Could you please elaborate on your point? -- T=C3=B6ma > --00000000000079a80705aba79293 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peace,

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 2:20 PM Salz, Rich= <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dm= arc.ietf.org> wrote:

Also, a CDN is not a proxy.=C2=A0 It *IS* an = entity that the origin has contracted with to perform certain functions.


It is (in all but a couple of implementations I think) a *proxy* that th= e origin has contracted with.=C2=A0 Could you please elaborate on your poin= t?

--
T=C3=B6ma
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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n0XqV5uWAPL2; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com (mail-yb1-xb29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CC723A0AD3; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb29.google.com with SMTP id e14so547141ybf.4; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:14:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=28jY7w84lj7SN26GrM75tOBbV0QwHRjxyiBxNfnAu98=; b=bAOObChKKt1px5WvUa/PzpThnamUyL+K5p9qd/mMa69MB3173COQw6oQHsIO+sYuUG 1IF9f/IKvJWKr8nKja+1ZppQWWIEifypscIjhKkpv3kY0tCwB5A2vHoN41CfOIrqT3HH 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ABdhPJwwf7qmfeUXJR/zqGG373EVykhsz/kEokfGgRIoaRbzHWGaMhg03+ZoH4HMy4x8F72fdu0ZvmDq/zjqsspc5oc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:5557:: with SMTP id j84mr32942423ybb.461.1596114861854; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:14:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4937FCE4-23EF-4585-8675-C07F3B347AC6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 16:13:09 +0300 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Watson Ladd , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:14:49 -0000 Peace, On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 3:33 PM Salz, Rich wrote: >> It is (in all but a couple of implementations I think) > a *proxy* that the origin has contracted with. Could > you please elaborate on your point? > > It has a TLS cert that identifies itself as the origin. It depends! In the majority of cases (i.e. delivering preseeded static content), no. It identifies as some-1337-garbage.static.example.com, which it basically *is*. The manner in which the content (hopefully uploaded by the origin via an end-to-end encrypted connection) propagates to edge nodes is then up to the implementation, and it is contained within the area of responsibility of the CDN operator. However, there's a minority of cases where a CDN is also used to deliver *dynamically generated* content which could not be cached, e.g. because it is only available to authenticated users. In this case, the CDN in fact impersonates the origin, processes all the authentication data, and the only way to implement that is proxying across different areas of responsibility. How's that different from what middleboxes are doing is not clear to me. Proxy is a proxy. There are various kind of proxies probably also doing something which is deemed useful to their owners and users, which doesn't relax the statement that such proxying is not endorsed by the IETF. The intent and purpose behind proxying are IMO in scope of model-t and are, accordingly, out of scope here. > How is it different from an origin that uses load-balancing to send you s= omewhere? Is www.facebook.com a CDN or intermediary, or is it the origin? Is www.facebook.com a Facebook-owned middlebox, or is it the endpoint server? (And this is *one* of the reasons I won't trust Facebook for anything sensitive!) Again, I think this is more of a topic for model-t. The main difference though is that the data crosses the boundary between the areas of responsibility in a way which is not transparent to me. It is a common approach to allow insecure connections over the Internet from the edge nodes to the origin, and I have no way of knowing if this is the case for the resource I'm currently using. There are also more subtle differences but I think I've long crossed the boundary of the off-topic area here myself! -- T=C3=B6ma From nobody Thu Jul 30 06:39:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058A83A1157; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:39:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZVCOCfcvK-p8; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACDAF3A1158; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 06:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:39:12 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.114]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com with ESMTP id 32j464pj0y-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:39:12 -0400 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.119) by ustx2ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.122) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:39:12 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.119]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:39:12 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: =?utf-8?B?VMO2bWEgR2F2cmljaGVua292?= CC: Watson Ladd , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [TLS] [OPSEC] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp Thread-Index: AdZd8qs4MVhjKcpfSaSC3eC5PK0rEQCv6iMAAH8Fd4AAUf7RAABaakYAAA6JtwAAPo6TAP//wx4AgABOLID//8Q2AA== Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 13:39:11 +0000 Message-ID: <2D916A08-8C24-4BED-8F8A-4DD04B9B1B0F@akamai.com> References: <4937FCE4-23EF-4585-8675-C07F3B347AC6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.38.20061401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.32.61] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 30 Jul 2020 07:56:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4937FCE4-23EF-4585-8675-C07F3B347AC6@cisco.com> <2D916A08-8C24-4BED-8F8A-4DD04B9B1B0F@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <2D916A08-8C24-4BED-8F8A-4DD04B9B1B0F@akamai.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:56:44 +0300 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Watson Ladd , "Eric Wang (ejwang)" , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , OpSec Chairs , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b466405aba9e2cc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:57:36 -0000 --0000000000003b466405aba9e2cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peace, On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 4:39 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > We have a product, site shield, that customers can use to limit the IP > addresses of who can reach their origin server. Everyone else is blocked= . > Some use that to make sure that *only* Akamai servers will talk to them, > and that everything else goes through us. Is that a proxy? How is it > different from terminating TLS in the DMZ and sending it inside? How does > the client know? > I don't know, and this *is* the problem. I may be connecting to the service from a network I don't trust with my information, and I have (almost) no tool to tell me whether it is served from a different network via a secure connection *or* it is served from an edge node deployed *in the same network I don't trust*, that node being connected to the service through an unauthenticated channel. Like in [1], where this unauthenticated channel is being marketed as "end-to-end encryption". This approach basically defies all the end-to-end encryption efforts. When it comes to static content, with all the JS security implemented, this is mostly fine. Dynamic content is a very different story. [1] https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/200170416-End-to-end-HTTPS= -with-Cloudflare-Part-3-SSL-options -- T=C3=B6ma > --0000000000003b466405aba9e2cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peace,

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 4:39 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
We have a product, site shield, that customers ca= n use to limit the IP addresses of who can reach their origin server.=C2=A0= Everyone else is blocked. Some use that to make sure that *only* Akamai se= rvers will talk to them, and that everything else goes through us.=C2=A0 Is= that a proxy? How is it different from terminating TLS in the DMZ and send= ing it inside? How does the client know?

I don't know, and this *is* the= problem.

I may be conne= cting to the service from a network I don't trust with my information, = and I have (almost) no tool to tell me whether it is served from a differen= t network via a secure connection *or* it is served from an edge node deplo= yed *in the same network I don't trust*, that node being connected to t= he service through an unauthenticated channel.

<= /div>
Like in [1], where this unauthenticated channel is b= eing marketed as "end-to-end encryption".=C2=A0 This approach bas= ically defies all the end-to-end encryption efforts.

When it comes to static content, with all the = JS security implemented, this is mostly fine.=C2=A0 Dynamic content is a ve= ry different story.


--
T=C3=B6ma
--0000000000003b466405aba9e2cc-- From nobody Thu Jul 30 08:18:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4B03A095A for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:18:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zeRLKGrXG5Xz for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 017C83A094E for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id l26so3796419otj.4 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:18:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qyi38KYkImN6F9WBfGDg5gZxkyWBlaoGFLeUXgHt9PI=; b=EBApBnu1y2G5B1U813auJMlaFXWPKfOOET6L/iDnHZUSF18piHjhHHBu11gxOvoM7m 6zdJxF5dI+6ecT2VRLgoA+h6JzSeDYnB6rQ+f8J86kuBrOdp7IQCUTUk5sE+/1HVuJMG 0jBOAZpK0o5tIMXXrcHCA11DQCnqj/dm4HzzOghu/D67COrmuDCvlBegh7hgWCLtHg2L ZvscYv52QX++FOGfbsi8ppUCfrlt9qU3CV996V+Td7j3EgAj7o8rtYC0TEsjRSZyurYq NMxJOCDr3HtyHW8m14UkBKsrKvHwhlOEkxOCksL9iDuJL4uwrB8Br11UsFmhNO9Iwy6c JYdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qyi38KYkImN6F9WBfGDg5gZxkyWBlaoGFLeUXgHt9PI=; b=N63wS15SqDmAlw4Pi4x5ZuS0dYYTD3trtqoi8nqFtuMNpe1e4RqcokiXM8ZADOQap6 +rBuunpQy4RNqeRfDaDbnW7wG4WnbUU+M6D8lAFG13GJ+QDgElymOE6tbZXCycqL0Q6P KcALdvQ0WnRyaz8LSZePBjLXAQj2c+swUmn5JWDfpRbP3ZMiTiQH+dmMSBFms499sLk8 mqzSaXyYjtPvh8pS5USvzjoMheA3c5aw/ekYNZU61PEHBREgFfAAUHv+FCZbZu6H+OcJ CkLBYUgsHL7CBtc23+T3oAJh4OUiwof1ZH6bkkRfqWsiM9+5JuSP3QoDOXwmlxnQMHYw Bn0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5306d1u27MitOa21pZUoBe/IY+qW4Xawwb5t8wGIiFQiWji3XDIL x1honzhwLI97mtEXzNQT8QdcXDa8CjxeMbtMt+GjCQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx/LQqtFF1X5Py7CwKadg6LFqsQcheCY4kk03iyFDsbkwzd2QKXgkOknWtiSWmvU6k6ubJHc1K51V+gq9YY4pE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1d6c:: with SMTP id l12mr2622454oti.275.1596122292876; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:18:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4937FCE4-23EF-4585-8675-C07F3B347AC6@cisco.com> <2D916A08-8C24-4BED-8F8A-4DD04B9B1B0F@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nick Harper Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 08:18:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= Cc: "Salz, Rich" , Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" , OpSec Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000049530f05abaa2e19" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:18:16 -0000 --00000000000049530f05abaa2e19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 7:58 AM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov = wrote: > Peace, > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 4:39 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > >> We have a product, site shield, that customers can use to limit the IP >> addresses of who can reach their origin server. Everyone else is blocke= d. >> Some use that to make sure that *only* Akamai servers will talk to them, >> and that everything else goes through us. Is that a proxy? How is it >> different from terminating TLS in the DMZ and sending it inside? How doe= s >> the client know? >> > > I don't know, and this *is* the problem. > The point is, whatever server/device has a publicly trusted certificate for a domain name is authoritative for that domain. That server can get the content it serves (whether dynamic or static) from any source. TLS only provides guarantees about the connection between the client and server. It says nothing about whether the content served was obtained or generated in some secure manner. That content could be sourced locally, it could be aggregated or generated from other servers via connections over other secure protocols that aren't TLS, it could even come from some insecure source like transmitting an audio stream collected from an antenna connected to the server. I may be connecting to the service from a network I don't trust with my > information, and I have (almost) no tool to tell me whether it is served > from a different network via a secure connection *or* it is served from a= n > edge node deployed *in the same network I don't trust*, that node being > connected to the service through an unauthenticated channel. > If you're connecting to a service, at some point you have to trust that the service operator is running it in a reasonable way. TLS only tells you that your connection to the server is secure - it tells you nothing about the provenance of the content served, and even if such a mechanism exists (I am not advocating that such a thing should exist), the server can always claim that it generated it instead of that it got it from somewhere else. > > Like in [1], where this unauthenticated channel is being marketed as > "end-to-end encryption". This approach basically defies all the end-to-e= nd > encryption efforts. > > When it comes to static content, with all the JS security implemented, > this is mostly fine. Dynamic content is a very different story. > > [1] > https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/200170416-End-to-end-HTT= PS-with-Cloudflare-Part-3-SSL-options > > -- > T=C3=B6ma > >> _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --00000000000049530f05abaa2e19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 7:58 AM T=C3= =B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Peace,

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 4:39 PM Salz, Rich <= rsalz@akamai.com&= gt; wrote:
We have a= product, site shield, that customers can use to limit the IP addresses of = who can reach their origin server.=C2=A0 Everyone else is blocked. Some use= that to make sure that *only* Akamai servers will talk to them, and that e= verything else goes through us.=C2=A0 Is that a proxy? How is it different = from terminating TLS in the DMZ and sending it inside? How does the client = know?

I don't know, and this *is* the problem.
<= div>
The point is, whatever server/device has a publicly trus= ted certificate for a domain name is authoritative for that domain. That se= rver can get the content it serves (whether dynamic or static) from any sou= rce. TLS only provides guarantees about the connection between the client a= nd server. It says nothing about whether the content served was obtained or= generated in some secure manner. That content could be sourced locally, it= could be aggregated or generated from other servers via connections over o= ther secure protocols that aren't TLS, it could even come from some ins= ecure source like transmitting an audio stream collected from an antenna co= nnected to the server.

I may be connecting to the service from a network I don't trust with= my information, and I have (almost) no tool to tell me whether it is serve= d from a different network via a secure connection *or* it is served from a= n edge node deployed *in the same network I don't trust*, that node bei= ng connected to the service through an unauthenticated channel.
=

If you're connecting to a service, at = some point you have to trust that the service operator is running it in a r= easonable way. TLS only tells you that your connection to the server is sec= ure - it tells you nothing about the provenance of the content served, and = even if such a mechanism exists (I am not advocating that such a thing shou= ld exist), the server can always claim that it generated it instead of that= it got it from somewhere else.

Like in [1], where this unauthenticated channel is being marketed as "= ;end-to-end encryption".=C2=A0 This approach basically defies all the = end-to-end encryption efforts.

When it comes to static content, with all the JS security implemente= d, this is mostly fine.=C2=A0 Dynamic content is a very different story.


--
T=C3=B6ma
_______________________________________________
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TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
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Fri, 31 Jul 2020 15:33:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 15:33:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Eric Wang (ejwang)" Cc: Jen Linkova , OPSEC , "tls@ietf.org" , OpSec Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003080ef05abc46130" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [TLS] Call For Adoption: draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 22:33:40 -0000 --0000000000003080ef05abc46130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I think this WG is a bit zombie-like. Its most recent milestones are from 2013 [1]. I favor rejecting all active drafts (although I can see value in publishing them via the ISE), and closing this WG. thanks, Rob [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/opsec/about/ On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:41 AM Eric Wang (ejwang) wrote: > As authors we appreciate all the constructive comments on the draft. > Based on the feedback, we will revise the scope of the document to cover > =E2=80=9Cplain=E2=80=9D TLS proxy only (removing =E2=80=9Cselective proxy= ing=E2=80=9D). We will circulate > a new revision when it is ready. > > Best, > -Eric (on behalf of the authors) > > > On Jul 22, 2020, at 6:30 PM, Jen Linkova wrote: > > One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and > explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe > the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published. > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: > > > Folks, > > > > This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp. > > > > Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020. > > > > Ron > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > > > > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --0000000000003080ef05abc46130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I think this WG is a bit zombie-lik= e. Its most recent milestones are from 2013 [1].

I= favor rejecting all active drafts (although I can see value in publishing = them via the ISE), and closing this WG.


On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:41 AM Eric Wang (ejwang) <ejwang=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g= t; wrote:
As authors we appreciate all the constructive comments on the draft.=C2=A0 = Based on the feedback, we will revise the scope of the document to cover = =E2=80=9Cplain=E2=80=9D TLS proxy only (removing =E2=80=9Cselective proxyin= g=E2=80=9D).=C2=A0 We will circulate a new revision when it is ready.

Best,
-Eric (on behalf of the authors)


On Jul 22, 2020, at 6:30 PM, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote:

One thing to add here: the chairs would like to hear active and
explicit support of the adoption. So please speak up if you believe
the draft is useful and the WG shall work on getting it published.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:35 AM Ron Bonica
<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Folks,



This email begins a Call For Adoption on draft-wang-opsec-tls-proxy-bp.



Please send comments to opsec@ietf.org by August 3, 2020.



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0Ron




Juniper Business Use Only

_______________________________________________
OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec



--
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry

_______________________________________________
OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec

_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
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