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boundary="_000_BL0PR05MB53166A910D861850352243B6AEB49BL0PR05MB5316namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL0PR05MB5316.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1ec48cde-2055-4ae7-77a3-08d8c865b2a6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Feb 2021 17:03:58.6252 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 6EDOKQR4aTqj08hJOe2BMKPpzLbOIQo9NoSJQDSmV1oWl6SknL8U2TQ9WI6/ENdEJbeeRlRrI8it4DJ8Daf5rA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB6942 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.737 definitions=2021-02-03_06:2021-02-03, 2021-02-03 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102030100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 17:04:08 -0000 --_000_BL0PR05MB53166A910D861850352243B6AEB49BL0PR05MB5316namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, This appears to be a well-written draft that reflects current practice. Could I ask for two volunteers to read and comment on the draft? Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: OPSEC On Behalf Of Kirsty P Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:19 AM To: opsec@ietf.org Cc: Ollie Whitehouse Subject: [OPSEC] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicat= ors-of-compromise-02.txt [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi OPSEC, Please see below for details of our new draft on Indicators of Compromise (= IoCs), updated based on previous comments. We think it might be suitable fo= r OPSEC, but we'd like to hear your comments, discussion or feedback on thi= s draft - please get in touch! Kirsty & Ollie ________________________________ From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: 13 January 2021 17:44 To: Kirsty P >; Kirsty P = >; Ollie Whitehouse > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compr= omise-02.txt A new version of I-D, draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Kirsty Paine and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise Revision: 02 Title: Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) and Their Role in Attack De= fence Document date: 2021-01-13 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 18 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-paine-smart-indicator= s-of-compromise-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-paine-smart-indicato= rs-of-compromise/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-paine-smart-ind= icators-of-compromise Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of= -compromise-02 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-paine-smart-indic= ators-of-compromise-02 Abstract: Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) are an important technique in attack defence (often called cyber defence). This document outlines the different types of IoC, their associated benefits and limitations, and discusses their effective use. It also contextualises the role of IoCs in defending against attacks through describing a recent case study. This draft does not pre-suppose where IoCs can be found or should be detected - as they can be discovered and deployed in networks, endpoints or elsewhere - rather, engineers should be aware that they need to be detectable (either by endpoints, security appliances or network-based defences, or ideally all) to be effective. The purpose of this draft is to document both the operational issues, but also the best practices associated with use of IoCs today. This draft provides a foundation for proposals for new approaches to operational challenges in network security. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All mate= rial is UK Crown Copyright (c) --_000_BL0PR05MB53166A910D861850352243B6AEB49BL0PR05MB5316namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks,

 

This appears to be a well-written draft that reflect= s current practice.

 

Could I ask for two volunteers to read and comment o= n the draft?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;            =             Ron=

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: OPSEC <opsec-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Kirsty P
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:19 AM
To: opsec@ietf.org
Cc: Ollie Whitehouse <ollie.whitehouse@nccgroup.com>
Subject: [OPSEC] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-= indicators-of-compromise-02.txt

 

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo= r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]

 

Hi OPSEC,

 

Please see below for details of our ne= w draft on Indicators of Compromise (IoCs), updated based on previous comme= nts. We think it might be suitable for OPSEC, but we'd like to hear your comments, discussion or feedback on this draft = - please get in touch!

 

Kirsty & Ollie

 

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org &l= t;internet-drafts@ietf.org&= gt;
Sent: 13 January 2021 17:44
To: Kirsty P <Kirsty.p@nc= sc.gov.uk>; Kirsty P <Kir= sty.p@ncsc.gov.uk>; Ollie Whitehouse <ollie.whitehouse@nccgroup.com>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicators-o= f-compromise-02.txt

 


A new version of I-D, draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kirsty Paine and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-pai= ne-smart-indicators-of-compromise
Revision:       02
Title:          Indicators of = Compromise (IoCs) and Their Role in Attack Defence
Document date:  2021-01-13
Group:          Individual Sub= mission
Pages:          18
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-= 02.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise= /
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compr= omise
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-paine-smart-indicators-of-comprom= ise-02

Abstract:
   Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) are an important technique in = attack
   defence (often called cyber defence).  This document outl= ines the
   different types of IoC, their associated benefits and limitati= ons,
   and discusses their effective use.  It also contextualise= s the role
   of IoCs in defending against attacks through describing a rece= nt case
   study.  This draft does not pre-suppose where IoCs can be= found or
   should be detected - as they can be discovered and deployed in=
   networks, endpoints or elsewhere - rather, engineers should be= aware
   that they need to be detectable (either by endpoints, security=
   appliances or network-based defences, or ideally all) to be    effective.  The purpose of this draft is to document both= the
   operational issues, but also the best practices associated wit= h use
   of IoCs today.  This draft provides a foundation for prop= osals for
   new approaches to operational challenges in network security.<= br>



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

This information is exempt under the Freedom of Info= rmation Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legisl= ation. Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All= material is UK Crown Copyright ©

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BL0PR05MB5235 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.737 definitions=2021-02-03_07:2021-02-03, 2021-02-03 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102030113 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 19:33:35 -0000 --_000_BL0PR05MB53165391342A0CEB6D1C7E89AEB49BL0PR05MB5316namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks much! Juniper Business Use Only From: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 12:34 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Kirsty P ; opse= c@ietf.org Cc: Ollie Whitehouse Subject: Re: [OPSEC] New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicat= ors-of-compromise-02.txt [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi Ron, I can review it, but will not be able to get to it for a week if that's OK.= .... Best, Nancy From: OPSEC > on beha= lf of Ron Bonica > Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 9:04 AM To: Kirsty P >, "opsec@ietf.org" > Cc: Ollie Whitehouse > Subject: Re: [OPSEC] New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicat= ors-of-compromise-02.txt Folks, This appears to be a well-written draft that reflects current practice. Could I ask for two volunteers to read and comment on the draft? Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: OPSEC > On Beha= lf Of Kirsty P Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:19 AM To: opsec@ietf.org Cc: Ollie Whitehouse > Subject: [OPSEC] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicat= ors-of-compromise-02.txt [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi OPSEC, Please see below for details of our new draft on Indicators of Compromise (= IoCs), updated based on previous comments. We think it might be suitable fo= r OPSEC, but we'd like to hear your comments, discussion or feedback on thi= s draft - please get in touch! Kirsty & Ollie ________________________________ From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: 13 January 2021 17:44 To: Kirsty P >; Kirsty P = >; Ollie Whitehouse > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compr= omise-02.txt A new version of I-D, draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Kirsty Paine and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise Revision: 02 Title: Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) and Their Role in Attack De= fence Document date: 2021-01-13 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 18 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-paine-smart-indicator= s-of-compromise-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-paine-smart-indicato= rs-of-compromise/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-paine-smart-ind= icators-of-compromise Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of= -compromise-02 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-paine-smart-indic= ators-of-compromise-02 Abstract: Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) are an important technique in attack defence (often called cyber defence). This document outlines the different types of IoC, their associated benefits and limitations, and discusses their effective use. It also contextualises the role of IoCs in defending against attacks through describing a recent case study. This draft does not pre-suppose where IoCs can be found or should be detected - as they can be discovered and deployed in networks, endpoints or elsewhere - rather, engineers should be aware that they need to be detectable (either by endpoints, security appliances or network-based defences, or ideally all) to be effective. The purpose of this draft is to document both the operational issues, but also the best practices associated with use of IoCs today. This draft provides a foundation for proposals for new approaches to operational challenges in network security. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All mate= rial is UK Crown Copyright (c) --_000_BL0PR05MB53165391342A0CEB6D1C7E89AEB49BL0PR05MB5316namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Thanks much!

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwin= g=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 12:34 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Kirsty P <Kirsty.p@nc= sc.gov.uk>; opsec@ietf.org
Cc: Ollie Whitehouse <ollie.whitehouse@nccgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-= indicators-of-compromise-02.txt

 

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo= r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]

 

Hi Ron,

I can review it, but will not be able to get to it f= or a week if that’s OK…..

Best, Nancy

 

From= : OPSEC <opsec-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf= of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 9:04 AM
To: Kirsty P <Kirsty.p=3D40ncsc.gov.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, "opsec@ietf.org" <opsec@ietf.org>
Cc: Ollie Whitehouse <ollie.whitehouse@nccgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-= indicators-of-compromise-02.txt

 

Folks,

 

This appears to be a well-written draft that reflect= s current practice.

 

Could I ask for two volunteers to read and comment o= n the draft?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;            =             Ron=

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: OPSEC <opsec-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Kirsty P
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:19 AM
To: opsec@ietf.org
Cc: Ollie Whitehouse <ollie.whitehouse@nccgroup.com>
Subject: [OPSEC] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-= indicators-of-compromise-02.txt

 

<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo= r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]

 

Hi OPSEC,

 

Please see below for details of our ne= w draft on Indicators of Compromise (IoCs), updated based on previous comme= nts. We think it might be suitable for OPSEC, but we'd like to hear your comments, discussion or feedback on this draft = - please get in touch!

 

Kirsty & Ollie

 

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org &l= t;internet-drafts@ietf.org&= gt;
Sent: 13 January 2021 17:44
To: Kirsty P <Kirsty.p@nc= sc.gov.uk>; Kirsty P <Kir= sty.p@ncsc.gov.uk>; Ollie Whitehouse <ollie.whitehouse@nccgroup.com>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicators-o= f-compromise-02.txt

 


A new version of I-D, draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kirsty Paine and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-pai= ne-smart-indicators-of-compromise
Revision:       02
Title:          Indicators of = Compromise (IoCs) and Their Role in Attack Defence
Document date:  2021-01-13
Group:          Individual Sub= mission
Pages:          18
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-= 02.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise= /
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compr= omise
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-paine-smart-indicators-of-comprom= ise-02

Abstract:
   Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) are an important technique in = attack
   defence (often called cyber defence).  This document outl= ines the
   different types of IoC, their associated benefits and limitati= ons,
   and discusses their effective use.  It also contextualise= s the role
   of IoCs in defending against attacks through describing a rece= nt case
   study.  This draft does not pre-suppose where IoCs can be= found or
   should be detected - as they can be discovered and deployed in=
   networks, endpoints or elsewhere - rather, engineers should be= aware
   that they need to be detectable (either by endpoints, security=
   appliances or network-based defences, or ideally all) to be    effective.  The purpose of this draft is to document both= the
   operational issues, but also the best practices associated wit= h use
   of IoCs today.  This draft provides a foundation for prop= osals for
   new approaches to operational challenges in network security.<= br>



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

This information is exempt under the Freedom of Info= rmation Act 2000 (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legisl= ation. Refer any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All= material is UK Crown Copyright ©

--_000_BL0PR05MB53165391342A0CEB6D1C7E89AEB49BL0PR05MB5316namp_-- From nobody Thu Feb 4 22:20:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBA03A1C7D for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 22:20:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Wahs1210o07 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 22:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28E113A1C80 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 22:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:c27:63c5:1ca8:eb3c] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:c27:63c5:1ca8:eb3c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8180F283CCD; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:20:03 +0000 (UTC) To: Ron Bonica , Kirsty P , "opsec@ietf.org" Cc: Ollie Whitehouse References: <161055984315.25920.7578284983388559797@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <8d9aa788-4295-514d-a054-a323fbc3c62c@si6networks.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 03:18:50 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 06:20:14 -0000 Hi, Ron, I can volunteer for reviewing this draft if that'd be of help. Thanks! Regards, Fernando On 3/2/21 14:03, Ron Bonica wrote: > Folks, > > This appears to be a well-written draft that reflects current practice. > > Could I ask for two volunteers to read and comment on the draft? > >                                                            Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* OPSEC *On Behalf Of * Kirsty P > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:19 AM > *To:* opsec@ietf.org > *Cc:* Ollie Whitehouse > *Subject:* [OPSEC] Fw: New Version Notification for > draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > Hi OPSEC, > > Please see below for details of our new draft on Indicators of > Compromise (IoCs), updated based on previous comments. We think it might > be suitable for OPSEC, but we'd like to hear your comments, discussion > or feedback on this draft - please get in touch! > > Kirsty & Ollie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*internet-drafts@ietf.org > > > *Sent:* 13 January 2021 17:44 > *To:* Kirsty P >; > Kirsty P >; Ollie > Whitehouse > > *Subject:* New Version Notification for > draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt > > > A new version of I-D, draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Kirsty Paine and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name:           draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise > Revision:       02 > Title:          Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) and Their Role in Attack > Defence > Document date:  2021-01-13 > Group:          Individual Submission > Pages:          18 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise/ > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02 > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02 > > Abstract: >    Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) are an important technique in attack >    defence (often called cyber defence).  This document outlines the >    different types of IoC, their associated benefits and limitations, >    and discusses their effective use.  It also contextualises the role >    of IoCs in defending against attacks through describing a recent case >    study.  This draft does not pre-suppose where IoCs can be found or >    should be detected - as they can be discovered and deployed in >    networks, endpoints or elsewhere - rather, engineers should be aware >    that they need to be detectable (either by endpoints, security >    appliances or network-based defences, or ideally all) to be >    effective.  The purpose of this draft is to document both the >    operational issues, but also the best practices associated with use >    of IoCs today.  This draft provides a foundation for proposals for >    new approaches to operational challenges in network security. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 > (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer > any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk > . All material is UK Crown Copyright © > > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Feb 5 08:36:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9498F3A1320; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:36:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.25, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: OPSEC On Behalf Of Fernando Gont Sent: Friday, February 5, 2021 1:19 AM To: Ron Bonica ; Kirsty P ; opsec@ietf.org Cc: Ollie Whitehouse Subject: Re: [OPSEC] New Version Notification for draft-paine-smart-indicat= ors-of-compromise-02.txt [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi, Ron, I can volunteer for reviewing this draft if that'd be of help. Thanks! Regards, Fernando On 3/2/21 14:03, Ron Bonica wrote: > Folks, > > This appears to be a well-written draft that reflects current practice. > > Could I ask for two volunteers to read and comment on the draft? > > Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* OPSEC *On Behalf Of * Kirsty P > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 6:19 AM > *To:* opsec@ietf.org > *Cc:* Ollie Whitehouse > *Subject:* [OPSEC] Fw: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > Hi OPSEC, > > Please see below for details of our new draft on Indicators of=20 > Compromise (IoCs), updated based on previous comments. We think it=20 > might be suitable for OPSEC, but we'd like to hear your comments,=20 > discussion or feedback on this draft - please get in touch! > > Kirsty & Ollie > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > *From:*internet-drafts@ietf.org =20 > > > *Sent:* 13 January 2021 17:44 > *To:* Kirsty P >;=20 > Kirsty P >; Ollie=20 > Whitehouse > > *Subject:* New Version Notification for=20 > draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt > > > A new version of I-D,=20 > draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Kirsty Paine and posted to the IETF=20 > repository. > > Name: draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise > Revision: 02 > Title: Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) and Their Role in Attack > Defence > Document date: 2021-01-13 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 18 > URL: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-pain > e-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02.txt__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VcW92ERPAPayFO > lFzJEh-DIIcloEr885XwOQTqB4SgLNP76lq-_wkqRxnGvUm5F7$ > Status: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pai > ne-smart-indicators-of-compromise/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VcW92ERPAPayFOlFzJE > h-DIIcloEr885XwOQTqB4SgLNP76lq-_wkqRxnJcMSZWa$ > Htmlized: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draf > t-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VcW92ERPAPayFOl > FzJEh-DIIcloEr885XwOQTqB4SgLNP76lq-_wkqRxnBO_ajPm$ > Htmlized: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-paine-sm > art-indicators-of-compromise-02__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VcW92ERPAPayFOlFzJEh-D > IIcloEr885XwOQTqB4SgLNP76lq-_wkqRxnCdEa4wA$ > Diff: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pa > ine-smart-indicators-of-compromise-02__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VcW92ERPAPayFOlF > zJEh-DIIcloEr885XwOQTqB4SgLNP76lq-_wkqRxnNzNmLSB$ > > Abstract: > Indicators of Compromise (IoCs) are an important technique in attack > defence (often called cyber defence). This document outlines the > different types of IoC, their associated benefits and limitations, > and discusses their effective use. It also contextualises the role > of IoCs in defending against attacks through describing a recent case > study. This draft does not pre-suppose where IoCs can be found or > should be detected - as they can be discovered and deployed in > networks, endpoints or elsewhere - rather, engineers should be aware > that they need to be detectable (either by endpoints, security > appliances or network-based defences, or ideally all) to be > effective. The purpose of this draft is to document both the > operational issues, but also the best practices associated with use > of IoCs today. This draft provides a foundation for proposals for > new approaches to operational challenges in network security. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet= f.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 > (FOIA) and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer=20 > any FOIA queries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk=20 > . All material is UK Crown Copyright (c) > > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opse > c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VcW92ERPAPayFOlFzJEh-DIIcloEr885XwOQTqB4SgLNP76lq-_w > kqRxnEY1aznN$ > -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 _______________________________________________ OPSEC mailing list OPSEC@ietf.org https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec__;!= !NEt6yMaO-gk!VcW92ERPAPayFOlFzJEh-DIIcloEr885XwOQTqB4SgLNP76lq-_wkqRxnEY1az= nN$ From nobody Mon Feb 8 07:51:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843863A0F4D; Mon, 8 Feb 2021 07:50:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 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cD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIGxhbmc9IkVOLVVTIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwv bzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_D8D9A95797EE478CB4E91C395C4A0F29ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Feb 8 10:55:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C7503A14AC; Mon, 8 Feb 2021 10:55:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: opsec@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: opsec@ietf.org Message-ID: <161281052752.3647.9834482990535014406@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2021 10:55:27 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2021 18:55:28 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure WG of the IETF. Title : Operational Security Considerations for IPv6 Networks Authors : Eric Vyncke Kiran Kumar Merike Kaeo Enno Rey Filename : draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22.txt Pages : 55 Date : 2021-02-08 Abstract: Knowledge and experience on how to operate IPv4 securely is available: whether it is the Internet or an enterprise internal network. However, IPv6 presents some new security challenges. RFC 4942 describes the security issues in the protocol, but network managers also need a more practical, operations-minded document to enumerate advantages and/or disadvantages of certain choices. This document analyzes the operational security issues in several types of network (enterprises, service providers and residential users) and proposes technical and procedural mitigation techniques. The residential users case assumes a managed ISP CPE device. Some very specific places of a network such as the Internet of Things and unmanaged home networks are not discussed in this document. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-v6/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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[24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v135sm20202265qka.98.2021.02.09.06.23.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Feb 2021 06:23:42 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <9F907DE3-258A-4DBD-9644-E7C3FF9FA571@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E3FCF4D4-B030-437C-9BDD-1F3FE624F869" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 09:23:41 -0500 In-Reply-To: <7BCD5A24-D200-48F9-8410-7F1D5BA28B28@cisco.com> Cc: Merike Kaeo , KK Chittimaneni , Enno Rey , "opsec@ietf.org" To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" References: <157394737956.25908.2003745932020934234@ietfa.amsl.com> <7BCD5A24-D200-48F9-8410-7F1D5BA28B28@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 14:23:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E3FCF4D4-B030-437C-9BDD-1F3FE624F869 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Feb 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = wrote: > Just to confirm that the revision -23 should have all your review = items addressed except the 3 cited by Merike. Thanks, I look forward to seeing it on the datatracker! :) --Apple-Mail=_E3FCF4D4-B030-437C-9BDD-1F3FE624F869 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Feb 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> = wrote:
Just to = confirm that the revision -23 should have all your review items = addressed except the 3 cited by Merike.

Thanks, I look forward to seeing it on the = datatracker! :)

= --Apple-Mail=_E3FCF4D4-B030-437C-9BDD-1F3FE624F869-- From nobody Tue Feb 9 07:21:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietf.org Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDAF3A0E1F; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 07:21:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: opsec@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: opsec@ietf.org Message-ID: <161288407300.28367.13151446036912368833@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:21:13 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsec-v6-23.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 15:21:13 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure WG of the IETF. Title : Operational Security Considerations for IPv6 Networks Authors : Eric Vyncke Kiran Kumar Merike Kaeo Enno Rey Filename : draft-ietf-opsec-v6-23.txt Pages : 56 Date : 2021-02-09 Abstract: Knowledge and experience on how to operate IPv4 securely is available: whether it is the Internet or an enterprise internal network. However, IPv6 presents some new security challenges. RFC 4942 describes the security issues in the protocol, but network managers also need a more practical, operations-minded document to enumerate advantages and/or disadvantages of certain choices. This document analyzes the operational security issues associated with several types of network (enterprises, service providers, and residential users) and proposes technical and procedural mitigation techniques. The residential users case assumes a managed ISP CPE device. Some very specific types of networks such as the Internet of Things (IoT) and unmanaged home networks are not discussed in this document. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-v6/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-23 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-23 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsec-v6-23 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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cmFmdHMvDQoNCg0KICAgIF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fDQogICAgT1BTRUMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgT1BTRUNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL29wc2VjDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Feb 9 07:59:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0803A0E98 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 07:59:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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db3mr21017902qvb.43.1612886382680; Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mithrandir.lan (c-24-91-177-160.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 193sm19304174qki.28.2021.02.09.07.59.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:59:41 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BE44C482-9AEC-4F69-A11D-48D51D00F299" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <7BCD5A24-D200-48F9-8410-7F1D5BA28B28@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:59:40 -0500 Cc: Merike Kaeo , KK Chittimaneni , Enno Rey , "opsec@ietf.org" Message-Id: <20F36D91-A80F-49F8-9820-BAB18BACB4B5@fugue.com> References: <157394737956.25908.2003745932020934234@ietfa.amsl.com> <7BCD5A24-D200-48F9-8410-7F1D5BA28B28@cisco.com> To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 15:59:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BE44C482-9AEC-4F69-A11D-48D51D00F299 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 =C3=89ric, to be clear, your latest changes do not successfully address = my comments. For example, you talk about a managed ISP router, and say = that it=E2=80=99s okay for such a router to do all kinds of blocking on = the home network. It=E2=80=99s not=E2=80=94what does the ISP know of the = home network? How is the ISP qualified to set security and reachability = policy on the home network? This will cause major operational problems. Any network on which this is = deployed will break stub networks, such as are used by the HomePod Mini = and Google=E2=80=99s Nest gateway to provide reachability to Thread = networks. The text that I think you added to address my concerns is this: The residential users case assumes a managed ISP CPE device. Some very specific types of networks such as the Internet of Things (IoT) and unmanaged home networks are not discussed in this document. This is not helping. The text should read this way: This document is only applicable to managed networks, such as = enterprise building networks. The recommendations in this document are not = applicable to residential user cases, even in cases where an ISP may be managing = the home gateway. If you really want this to apply to the ISP-managed home network router, = it should only be in the case where the ISP is providing a value-added = service=E2=80=94where the home user is actually paying for a person to = manage their network, not just to have an ISP-owned router that maybe = gets regular firmware updates and some centrally-managed malware site = blocking. If you were to address this use case (which I think is really = unnecessary), this document needs to talk about what an ISP would have = to do to avoid creating interop problems for IoT networks in the home. = This needs to be very explicit and needs to be mentioned in the sections = where you talk about RA filtering and ND filtering. Sorry to be a sticky wicket, but I am afraid I failed to fully = communicate the seriousness of this problem back in 2019. Also, I don=E2=80=99t mean to minimize the problem you are trying to = address. I=E2=80=99m just saying that we don=E2=80=99t have the = technology to address it right now, and trying to address it on an = effectively unmanaged network with existing technology will create = serious interoperability problems. In addition to the IoT stub networks issue, following this document on a = home network would also eliminate multi-homing, which I hope is not = something that we are proposing to do. > On Feb 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = wrote: >=20 > Ted, >=20 > Just to confirm that the revision -23 should have all your review = items addressed except the 3 cited by Merike. >=20 > The section 2.3.2 has been revised extensively. >=20 > Thank you again for this review >=20 > -=C3=A9ric >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: Merike Kaeo > Date: Thursday, 5 December 2019 at 20:13 > To: Ted Lemon , Eric Vyncke , = Kiran Kumar Chittimaneni , Enno Rey = > Cc: > Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 >=20 > Hello Ted. >=20 > Very much appreciate the thorough review of the document. All 4 = authors agree with most of your comments which will be incorporated > in the next revision (also includes the discussion between = yourself, Gyan and Suresh re DHCPv6). For the comment re section 2.3.2 = and > RAs, can you point us to the relevant specifications for the TBR = (Threat Boarder Route) so that we can come up with a potential addition = that discusses the (non-) applicability of RA for certain scenarios? >=20 > For 3 comments the authors want to preserve the existing language = for reasons stated below. >=20 > 2.1.1 on ULA: The very first draft had some specific language on = ULA use and the topic of ULAs has been a major contention area to get to = working group last call. Some individuals felt for years that the = discussion on ULA should be to state that they are not required and not = recommended while others wanted to be more explicit on recommended = language *if* ULAs are used. The current language on ULAs reflects = working group rough consensus after many iterations of language. Te = authors would recommend that the language not be changed at this point. >=20 > 2.1.7 re /64s. The section references rfc8273 and the working = group felt that re-iterating even in more detail that work, which = provides the added context, was not necessary in the document itself >=20 > Last comment on Isolation of Networks - While we did not discuss = varying network configurations, usually more explicit details are = provided in the rfcs we reference. rfc8273 referenced in Section 2.1.7 = and rfc7721 referenced in section 2.1.8 are some examples. >=20 > - merike >=20 >>=20 >> --- >>=20 >> The document doesn't talk about its intended audience. It appears to = be the >> case based on my reading of it that the intended audience is = enterprise >> operators and similar. This should be stated clearly and explicitly. = Some of >> the advice in this document would be actively harmful if deployed on = an >> unmanaged network (e.g. in a home). That doesn't mean that the = document is >> bad=E2=80=94just that it needs to be scoped appropriately. I would = suggest adding a >> brief statement of applicability in the abstract and a more detailed >> explanation in the introduction. It is important that this statement = make >> clear that the advice in this document must not be followed by = implementers of >> home routers and similar devices. E.g., this advice would utterly = break a >> Thread (IPv6 over 802.15.4 mesh) Border Router. >>=20 >> It's also not clear that this document lives up to its abstract. = The abstract >> says: >>=20 >> This document analyzes the operational security issues in several >> places of a network (enterprises, service providers and residential >> users) and proposes technical and procedural mitigations techniques. >>=20 >> And yet if you look for example at section 2.1.1, there is no actual = analysis >> of the use of ULAs, nor is any advice on their use provided. >>=20 >> Section 2.1.4 doesn't mention using DHCP to provide hosts with = obfuscated >> address that, since known to the operator, can be added to filter = lists as >> appropriate, while still making probing mathematically challenging to = an >> outside attacker. >>=20 >> Section 2.1.6 incorrectly implies that DHCPv4 binds IP addresses to = link-layer >> addresses. This is not true. I don't know that it really matters, = but since >> it's not true, you should fix it. DHCPv4 uses a "client identifier," = which is >> quite similar to a DUID. If no client identifier is offered, then = the >> link-layer address is used, but this is not required, and the = behavior >> described for DUIDs in this document is also applicable to client = identifiers. >>=20 >> 2.1.7 seems to be continuing a thought that was started in 2.1.4. It = would be >> worth stating that explicitly, and comparing and contrasting these = approaches. >>=20 >> Although the abstract explicitly excludes applicability to IoT = networks, the >> advice in this document will necessarily be taken as applicable in = situations >> where IoT networks are leaf networks or even infrastructure that is = present >> alongside the networks that _are_ covered by this document. This has = some >> specific impacts that aren't talked about here and should be. For = instance, >> Manufacturer Usage Descriptions (MUD) are not mentioned, and should = be. MUD >> is applicable to infrastructure devices and really any = special-purpose device; >> e.g., MUD would be highly appropriate for use in hospital = environments where >> many devices are connected to the network that absolutely must have = their >> accessibility controlled; MUD is a good candidate for doing this. = The >> omission of this approach from section 2,1 is a major gap, since the = issues >> discussed in section 2.1 directly impact the feasibility of using MUD = (since >> MUD specifies firewall behavior for devices, and devices are = necessarily >> identified by source address). >>=20 >> The conclusion I'm drawing having gotten to the end of section 2.1, = in addition >> to what I've said above, is that some of the issues introduced in = subsections >> of section 2.1, like filterability of host addresses, really belong = in the >> initial section 2.1 introduction, so that the subsections of 2.1 can = refer back >> and give the reader a coherent picture, rather than requiring the = reader to >> synthesize this as they read through the subsections. >>=20 >> Section 2.3.2 talks about the threat of a MITM attack through the use = of forged >> RAs, but doesn't actually describe how prevalent such on-link attacks = are (this >> would be an on-link attack) nor does it talk about how such an = on-link attack >> would be more effective than an attack the attacker could do without = this >> capability. Without a threat model, this is somewhat hypothetical. >>=20 >> Section 2.3.2 goes on to talk at length about how to make RA Guard = work, >> without talking about when it is useful, what attacks it prevents, = and what >> problems it causes when deployed incorrectly. We have actually run = into >> serious problems working on the Thread Border Router specification = because of >> uncertainty about whether RA Guard may be present on a network to = which the TBR >> is attached. If it is, then the easiest way for the TBR to advertise >> reachability is gone, and we have to resort to bypasses such as ND = Proxy, >> reverse NAT64, NAT66, or tunnels, just in order to ensure = reachability of the >> leaf network. >>=20 >> I think it's actively harmful to recommend the use of RA guard = without talking >> about the problems it causes and how to mitigate them. This section = should >> explicitly say that RA guard should never be enabled by default: it = should be >> the case that the operator enables it explicitly, and that in cases = where there >> is no operator with the authority to set routing policy for a link, = RA guard >> should not be used on that link. >>=20 >> SAVI is another extremely useful technology that can't really be = deployed >> automatically without creating similar problems. To be clear, my = goal here is >> not to say that the document shouldn't recommend RA guard or SAVI, = but rather >> that it should be very clear about when to deploy it and when not to. >>=20 >> In section 2.3.5, what is a "generic operating system?" I don't = know what >> this term means. Can you use a term with a clearer meaning? >>=20 >> One thing I didn't see discussed in section 2 that I think belongs = there is the >> concept of isolation of networks. Networks that provide connectivity = to >> general-purpose devices like phones and comouters may need to provide >> flexibility of addressing for privacy reasons. Infrastructure = devices, >> particularly those for which MUD is applicable, may need to be on = networks >> where filtering is present and addressing is tightly controlled. = There's no >> discussion fo this kind of separation in the document, and I think = it's a >> serious gap. >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSEC mailing list >> OPSEC@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec >>=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_BE44C482-9AEC-4F69-A11D-48D51D00F299 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 =C3=89ric, to be clear, your latest changes do not = successfully address my comments. For example, you talk about a managed = ISP router, and say that it=E2=80=99s okay for such a router to do all = kinds of blocking on the home network. It=E2=80=99s not=E2=80=94what = does the ISP know of the home network? How is the ISP qualified to set = security and reachability policy on the home network?

This will cause major operational = problems. Any network on which this is deployed will break stub = networks, such as are used by the HomePod Mini and Google=E2=80=99s Nest = gateway to provide reachability to Thread networks.

The text that I think you added to = address my concerns is this:

   The residential users =
case assumes a managed ISP CPE
   device.  Some very specific types of networks such as the Internet of
   Things (IoT) and unmanaged home networks are not discussed in this
   document.

This is not = helping. The text should read this way:

   This document is only =
applicable to managed networks, such as enterprise
   building networks. The recommendations in this document =
are not applicable
   to residential user cases, even in cases =
where an ISP may be managing the
   home gateway.

If you really want = this to apply to the ISP-managed home network router, it should only be = in the case where the ISP is providing a value-added service=E2=80=94where= the home user is actually paying for a person to manage their network, = not just to have an ISP-owned router that maybe gets regular firmware = updates and some centrally-managed malware site blocking. If you were to = address this use case (which I think is really unnecessary), this = document needs to talk about what an ISP would have to do to avoid = creating interop problems for IoT networks in the home. This needs to be = very explicit and needs to be mentioned in the sections where you talk = about RA filtering and ND filtering.

Sorry to be a sticky wicket, but I am afraid I = failed to fully communicate the seriousness of this problem back in = 2019.

Also, I don=E2=80=99t mean to = minimize the problem you are trying to address. I=E2=80=99m just saying = that we don=E2=80=99t have the technology to address it right now, and = trying to address it on an effectively unmanaged network with existing = technology will create serious interoperability problems.

In addition to the IoT stub networks issue, = following this document on a home network would also eliminate = multi-homing, which I hope is not something that we are proposing to = do.

On Feb 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> = wrote:

Ted,

Just to confirm that the = revision -23 should have all your review items addressed except the 3 = cited by Merike.

The section 2.3.2 has been = revised extensively.

Thank you again for = this review

-=C3=A9ric


=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
From: Merike Kaeo <merike@doubleshotsecurity.com>
Date: = Thursday, 5 December 2019 at 20:13
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, = Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, Kiran Kumar Chittimaneni <kk.chittimaneni@gmail.com>, Enno Rey <erey@ernw.de>
Cc: <opsec@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] = Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21

   Hello Ted.

=    Very much appreciate the thorough review of the = document.  All 4 authors agree with most of your comments which = will be incorporated
   in the next = revision (also includes the discussion between yourself, Gyan and Suresh = re DHCPv6).  For the comment re  section 2.3.2 and
   RAs,  can you point us to the = relevant specifications for the TBR (Threat Boarder Route) so that we = can come up with a potential addition that discusses the (non-) = applicability of RA for certain scenarios?

=    For 3 comments the authors want to preserve the = existing language for reasons stated below.

=    2.1.1 on ULA: The very first draft had some specific = language on ULA use and the topic of ULAs has been a major contention = area to get to working group last call.  Some individuals felt for = years that the discussion on ULA should be to state that they are not = required and not recommended while others wanted to be more explicit on = recommended language *if* ULAs are used.  The current language on = ULAs reflects working group rough consensus after many iterations of = language.  Te authors would recommend that the language not be = changed at this point.

=    2.1.7 re /64s.  The section references rfc8273 = and the working group felt that re-iterating even in more detail that = work, which provides the added context, was not necessary in the = document itself

   Last = comment on Isolation of Networks -  While we did not discuss = varying network configurations, usually more explicit details are = provided in the rfcs we reference.  rfc8273 referenced in Section = 2.1.7 and rfc7721 referenced in section 2.1.8 are some examples.

   - merike


---

The document doesn't talk about its intended = audience.  It appears to be the
case based on my = reading of it that the intended audience is enterprise
operators and similar.  This should be stated clearly = and explicitly.  Some of
the advice in this document = would be actively harmful if deployed on an
unmanaged = network (e.g. in a home).  That doesn't mean that the document = is
bad=E2=80=94just that it needs to be scoped = appropriately.   I would suggest adding a
brief = statement of applicability in the abstract and a more detailed
explanation in the introduction.  It is important that = this statement make
clear that the advice in this document = must not be followed by implementers of
home routers and = similar devices.   E.g., this advice would utterly break a
Thread (IPv6 over 802.15.4 mesh) Border Router.

It's also not clear that this document lives = up to its abstract.   The abstract
says:

 This document analyzes the operational = security issues in several
 places of a network = (enterprises, service providers and residential
=  users) and proposes technical and procedural mitigations = techniques.

And yet if you look for example = at section 2.1.1, there is no actual analysis
of the use = of ULAs, nor is any advice on their use provided.

Section 2.1.4 doesn't mention using DHCP to provide hosts = with obfuscated
address that, since known to the operator, = can be added to filter lists as
appropriate, while still = making probing mathematically challenging to an
outside = attacker.

Section 2.1.6 incorrectly implies = that DHCPv4 binds IP addresses to link-layer
addresses. =  This is not true.  I don't know that it really matters, but = since
it's not true, you should fix it.  DHCPv4 uses = a "client identifier," which is
quite similar to a DUID. =  If no client identifier is offered, then the
link-layer address is used, but this is not required, and the = behavior
described for DUIDs in this document is also = applicable to client identifiers.

2.1.7 = seems to be continuing a thought that was started in 2.1.4.  It = would be
worth stating that explicitly, and comparing and = contrasting these approaches.

Although the = abstract explicitly excludes applicability to IoT networks, the
advice in this document will necessarily be taken as = applicable in situations
where IoT networks are leaf = networks or even infrastructure that is present
alongside = the networks that _are_ covered by this document.  This has some
specific impacts that aren't talked about here and should be. =   For instance,
Manufacturer Usage Descriptions = (MUD) are not mentioned, and should be.   MUD
is = applicable to infrastructure devices and really any special-purpose = device;
e.g., MUD would be highly appropriate for use in = hospital environments where
many devices are connected to = the network that absolutely must have their
accessibility = controlled; MUD is a good candidate for doing this.   The
omission of this approach from section 2,1 is a major gap, = since the issues
discussed in section 2.1 directly impact = the feasibility of using MUD (since
MUD specifies firewall = behavior for devices, and devices are necessarily
identified= by source address).

The conclusion I'm = drawing having gotten to the end of section 2.1, in addition
to what I've said above, is that some of the issues = introduced in subsections
of section 2.1, like = filterability of host addresses, really belong in the
initial section 2.1 introduction, so that the subsections of = 2.1 can refer back
and give the reader a coherent picture, = rather than requiring the reader to
synthesize this as = they read through the subsections.

Section = 2.3.2 talks about the threat of a MITM attack through the use of = forged
RAs, but doesn't actually describe how prevalent = such on-link attacks are (this
would be an on-link attack) = nor does it talk about how such an on-link attack
would be = more effective than an attack the attacker could do without this
capability.  Without a threat model, this is somewhat = hypothetical.

Section 2.3.2 goes on to talk = at length about how to make RA Guard work,
without talking = about when it is useful, what attacks it prevents, and what
problems it causes when deployed incorrectly.  We have = actually run into
serious problems working on the Thread = Border Router specification because of
uncertainty about = whether RA Guard may be present on a network to which the TBR
is attached.  If it is, then the easiest way for the TBR = to advertise
reachability is gone, and we have to resort = to bypasses such as ND Proxy,
reverse NAT64, NAT66, or = tunnels, just in order to ensure reachability of the
leaf = network.

I think it's actively harmful to = recommend the use of RA guard without talking
about the = problems it causes and how to mitigate them.  This section = should
explicitly say that RA guard should never be = enabled by default: it should be
the case that the = operator enables it explicitly, and that in cases where there
is no operator with the authority to set routing policy for a = link, RA guard
should not be used on that link.

SAVI is another extremely useful technology = that can't really be deployed
automatically without = creating similar problems.  To be clear, my goal here is
not to say that the document shouldn't recommend RA guard or = SAVI, but rather
that it should be very clear about when = to deploy it and when not to.

In section = 2.3.5, what is a "generic operating system?"   I don't know = what
this term means.   Can you use a term with = a clearer meaning?

One thing I didn't see = discussed in section 2 that I think belongs there is the
concept of isolation of networks.  Networks that provide = connectivity to
general-purpose devices like phones and = comouters may need to provide
flexibility of addressing = for privacy reasons.  Infrastructure devices,
particularly those for which MUD is applicable, may need to = be on networks
where filtering is present and addressing = is tightly controlled.  There's no
discussion fo this = kind of separation in the document, and I think it's a
serious gap.


_______________________________________________
OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec




= --Apple-Mail=_BE44C482-9AEC-4F69-A11D-48D51D00F299-- From nobody Tue Feb 9 16:52:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998073A10E7 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 16:52:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgOCyHPJcN3O for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 16:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB3323A10E6 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2021 16:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:2883:948d:d25a:5693] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:2883:948d:d25a:5693]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 78F37283D66; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 00:52:04 +0000 (UTC) To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , "opsec@ietf.org" References: <161281052752.3647.9834482990535014406@ietfa.amsl.com> <34DE1A4B-D1CF-4553-96B1-EA45C1886021@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 21:46:52 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34DE1A4B-D1CF-4553-96B1-EA45C1886021@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 00:52:20 -0000 Hi, Eric, A few days ago this doc came to mind, and I was wondering it had been abandoned. So thanks for rev'ing and pushing ti forward! Regards, Fernando On 8/2/21 16:01, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > This new revision (long due...) addresses the comments received from the OPS directorate (Tim Chown and Don Smith) + Mohamed Boucadair. > > The authors still need to address the IETF Last Call comments from the following directorates: IoT (Ted Lemon), Routing (Acee Lindem), Security (Linda Dunbar), and GEN (Erik Kline). > > Stay tuned but do not hold your breath __ > > -éric > > > -----Original Message----- > From: OPSEC on behalf of "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > Reply-To: "opsec@ietf.org" > Date: Monday, 8 February 2021 at 19:56 > To: "i-d-announce@ietf.org" > Cc: "opsec@ietf.org" > Subject: [OPSEC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22.txt > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure WG of the IETF. > > Title : Operational Security Considerations for IPv6 Networks > Authors : Eric Vyncke > Kiran Kumar > Merike Kaeo > Enno Rey > Filename : draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22.txt > Pages : 55 > Date : 2021-02-08 > > Abstract: > Knowledge and experience on how to operate IPv4 securely is > available: whether it is the Internet or an enterprise internal > network. However, IPv6 presents some new security challenges. RFC > 4942 describes the security issues in the protocol, but network > managers also need a more practical, operations-minded document to > enumerate advantages and/or disadvantages of certain choices. > > This document analyzes the operational security issues in several > types of network (enterprises, service providers and residential > users) and proposes technical and procedural mitigation techniques. > The residential users case assumes a managed ISP CPE device. Some > very specific places of a network such as the Internet of Things and > unmanaged home networks are not discussed in this document. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-v6/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsec-v6-22 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 10 13:30:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD013A137B for ; 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boundary="_000_BL0PR05MB5316653653DE97878D022E6FAE8D9BL0PR05MB5316namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL0PR05MB5316.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e2e66d64-956e-42d3-faba-08d8ce0b15c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Feb 2021 21:30:27.6561 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TP7EoKHYTSMYd6eYbiKNYEbFPpN0cI+GRF/df6Hz7YoHv9sQ2hppUOVlpovc6CD4BivND1ddANKsb6T+Yh9jJw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB7119 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.737 definitions=2021-02-10_10:2021-02-10, 2021-02-10 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=333 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102100188 Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] WGLC: draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 21:30:33 -0000 --_000_BL0PR05MB5316653653DE97878D022E6FAE8D9BL0PR05MB5316namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, This message initiates a WG Last call for draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filterin= g. Please submit comments by 2/24/2021. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BL0PR05MB5316653653DE97878D022E6FAE8D9BL0PR05MB5316namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks,

 

This message initiates a WG Last call for draft-ietf= -opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering. Please submit comments by 2/24/2021.

 

        &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =    Ron

 


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--_000_BL0PR05MB5316653653DE97878D022E6FAE8D9BL0PR05MB5316namp_-- From nobody Wed Feb 10 16:21:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4403A09EA; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 16:21:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mjGQsuzwZmJz; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 16:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB87F3A0AB5; Wed, 10 Feb 2021 16:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:8956:4518:7147:354b] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:8956:4518:7147:354b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34B54283B44; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 00:21:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise@ietf.org Cc: "opsec@ietf.org" , Kirsty P , Ollie Whitehouse Message-ID: <46e4e492-045a-4a02-9f19-8063680a0ad1@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 21:20:06 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] Review of draft-paine-smart-indicators-of-compromise X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 00:21:36 -0000 Folks, As promised, I've reviewed the aforementioned document. These are my comments (fwiw, there's an implicit "IMHO" in each comment, of course): **** Meta **** The document was an interesting read. Upon a first read it would seem to me that: * Section 5 might come right before Section 8 (security considerations) instead -. at the end of the day, it reads like the conclusions of your work.. however the reader probably needs the other material first to make sense of the conclusions. * Any reason why "Case Study: Cobalt Strike" and "Appendix A. Case Study: APT33" are not together (e.g. silbing sections, whether in the document body or in the appendix)? * Somewhere in Section 3 I'd provide pointers to the case studies, noting that they provide examples of IoCs. * After reading the document, I was wondering if it was within the scope of the charter, so I've re-read the charter and it seems there's room for this kind of documents. I make this note because IIRC opsec has generally produced more specific low-level technical documents, more closely linked with specific protocols and technologies. But I believe it is always a good thing to try to do more, particularly when it's useful stuff! * Regarding the case studies, could you provide more info such as the usefulness of the IoC, and their practical effectiveness and fragility for these case studies? **** Some detailed comments ***** * Abstract Please shorten it to < 5 lines. * Section 1: Not sure I'd use the term "open source" as it's employed in Section 1. * Section 1.1. This should be: The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in BCP 14 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they appear in all capitals, as shown here. However, after reading this document it seems you don't use any RFC2119 terms, so you can simply remove this para/section. * Section 3.: help to identify an occurrence of an intrusion or associated activity to a known intrusion set. maybe s/identify/associate/ ? * Section 3: IoC without context is not much use for network defence s/much/of much/ ? * Section 3: Either provide more detail on the lifecycle, or provide a suitable reference. * Section 3: confidence level, fragility and precision of the IoC Please elaborate on what you mean by each of these. * Section 4: You may want to provide a reference to "domain fronting", or simply add it to the terminology section. * Section 4.2: IP addresses of the command and control servers domain names used Probably list them as bullets. * Section 5.1: s/resource/resources/ ? * Section 7: s/endpoitn/endpoint/ * Section 7: I'm not a fan myself of things like DoH. However, maybe something should be mentioned about the possible impact? * Appendix A: I haven't gone in detail through the referenced report. However, let's just say that I'm usually rather skeptical much of the "attribution" that one finds on many reports and, to the extent that is possible, try to stay away from it as much as necessary. :-) (if anything, I'm more in the camp of "assumed to", "allegedly...", etc., so to speak). It's good that you cite the sources -- although the title "Insights into Iranian Cyber Espionage" might have some negative connotation to some -- but, at the end of the day, if anything, it's simply an adversary (many governments do the same kind of thing, one way or another). * Note: Appendix A says "..such a sophisticated and powerful adversary" but then Section A.1 says: "The techniques employed by this actor exhibit a relatively low level of sophistication". So there would seem to be something missing in between. Thanks! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Feb 12 07:31:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB59D3A172B for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 07:31:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=OOGn2Zlg; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=l8ZubgYQ Received: from 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[24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n5sm5872976qtd.5.2021.02.12.07.34.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Feb 2021 07:34:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0BA37F8D-B9BF-4D2B-9C86-D8C8C3B69BD6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.32\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <2B0A426F-9414-4FC2-99A1-DF71D495F02C@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:34:44 -0500 Cc: Merike Kaeo , KK Chittimaneni , Enno Rey , "opsec@ietf.org" Message-Id: <99FA8310-CDA8-4FCA-90F9-FE0952D95D93@fugue.com> References: <157394737956.25908.2003745932020934234@ietfa.amsl.com> <7BCD5A24-D200-48F9-8410-7F1D5BA28B28@cisco.com> <20F36D91-A80F-49F8-9820-BAB18BACB4B5@fugue.com> <2B0A426F-9414-4FC2-99A1-DF71D495F02C@cisco.com> To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:34:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0BA37F8D-B9BF-4D2B-9C86-D8C8C3B69BD6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 That=E2=80=99s a big improvement, =C3=89ric. Thanks! > On Feb 12, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = wrote: >=20 > Ted, > =20 > As you guessed in your email : we, the authors, do not want to prevent = multi-homing ;-) E.g., we already have several =E2=80=98do not apply in = all cases=E2=80=99 for several mitigation techniques include the = RA-guard one for obvious reason. > =20 > Just to be clear, we have used your suggestion to modify the abstract = and add an applicability statement in a -24 version (yet to be = published). We would appreciate it if you reviewed the proposed change = below. > =20 > --- start of abstract --- > Knowledge and experience on how to operate IPv4 securely is > available: whether it is the Internet or an enterprise internal > network. However, IPv6 presents some new security challenges. RFC > 4942 describes the security issues in the protocol, but network > managers also need a more practical, operations-minded document to > enumerate advantages and/or disadvantages of certain choices. > =20 > This document analyzes the operational security issues associated > with several types of network and proposes technical and procedural > mitigation techniques. This document is only applicable to managed > networks, such as enterprise building networks. The = recommendations > in this document are not applicable to residential user cases, even > in cases where a Service Provider may be managing the home gateway. > =20 > --- end of abstract --- > =20 > --- start of applicability statement (sub-section of introduction) --- > 1.1. Applicability Statement > =20 > This document is applicable to managed networks, i.e., when the > network is operated by the user organization itself. Indeed, many = of > the recommended mitigation techniques must be configured with the > detailed knowledge of the network (which are the default router, > which are the switch trunk ports, etc.). This covers Service > Provider (SP), enterprise networks and some = knowledgeable-home-user- > managed residential network. This applicability statement = especially > applies to Section 2.3 and Section 2.5.4. > =20 > For example, an exception to the generic recommendations of this > document is when a residential or enterprise network is = multi-homed. > =20 > =20 > --- end of applicability statement (sub-section of introduction) --- > =20 > Regards > =20 > -=C3=A9ric > =20 > From: Ted Lemon > Date: Tuesday, 9 February 2021 at 16:59 > To: Eric Vyncke > Cc: Merike Kaeo , Kiran Kumar = Chittimaneni , Enno Rey , = "opsec@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 > =20 > =C3=89ric, to be clear, your latest changes do not successfully = address my comments. For example, you talk about a managed ISP router, = and say that it=E2=80=99s okay for such a router to do all kinds of = blocking on the home network. It=E2=80=99s not=E2=80=94what does the ISP = know of the home network? How is the ISP qualified to set security and = reachability policy on the home network? > =20 > This will cause major operational problems. Any network on which this = is deployed will break stub networks, such as are used by the HomePod = Mini and Google=E2=80=99s Nest gateway to provide reachability to Thread = networks. > =20 > The text that I think you added to address my concerns is this: > =20 > The residential users case assumes a managed ISP CPE > device. Some very specific types of networks such as the Internet = of > Things (IoT) and unmanaged home networks are not discussed in this > document. > =20 > This is not helping. The text should read this way: > =20 > This document is only applicable to managed networks, such as = enterprise > building networks. The recommendations in this document are not = applicable > to residential user cases, even in cases where an ISP may be = managing the > home gateway. > =20 > If you really want this to apply to the ISP-managed home network = router, it should only be in the case where the ISP is providing a = value-added service=E2=80=94where the home user is actually paying for a = person to manage their network, not just to have an ISP-owned router = that maybe gets regular firmware updates and some centrally-managed = malware site blocking. If you were to address this use case (which I = think is really unnecessary), this document needs to talk about what an = ISP would have to do to avoid creating interop problems for IoT networks = in the home. This needs to be very explicit and needs to be mentioned in = the sections where you talk about RA filtering and ND filtering. > =20 > Sorry to be a sticky wicket, but I am afraid I failed to fully = communicate the seriousness of this problem back in 2019. > =20 > Also, I don=E2=80=99t mean to minimize the problem you are trying to = address. I=E2=80=99m just saying that we don=E2=80=99t have the = technology to address it right now, and trying to address it on an = effectively unmanaged network with existing technology will create = serious interoperability problems. > =20 > In addition to the IoT stub networks issue, following this document on = a home network would also eliminate multi-homing, which I hope is not = something that we are proposing to do. >=20 >=20 >> On Feb 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) > wrote: >> =20 >> Ted, >>=20 >> Just to confirm that the revision -23 should have all your review = items addressed except the 3 cited by Merike. >>=20 >> The section 2.3.2 has been revised extensively. >>=20 >> Thank you again for this review >>=20 >> -=C3=A9ric >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Merike Kaeo > >> Date: Thursday, 5 December 2019 at 20:13 >> To: Ted Lemon >, Eric = Vyncke >, Kiran Kumar = Chittimaneni >, Enno Rey > >> Cc: > >> Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 >>=20 >> Hello Ted. >>=20 >> Very much appreciate the thorough review of the document. All 4 = authors agree with most of your comments which will be incorporated >> in the next revision (also includes the discussion between = yourself, Gyan and Suresh re DHCPv6). For the comment re section 2.3.2 = and >> RAs, can you point us to the relevant specifications for the TBR = (Threat Boarder Route) so that we can come up with a potential addition = that discusses the (non-) applicability of RA for certain scenarios? >>=20 >> For 3 comments the authors want to preserve the existing language = for reasons stated below. >>=20 >> 2.1.1 on ULA: The very first draft had some specific language on = ULA use and the topic of ULAs has been a major contention area to get to = working group last call. Some individuals felt for years that the = discussion on ULA should be to state that they are not required and not = recommended while others wanted to be more explicit on recommended = language *if* ULAs are used. The current language on ULAs reflects = working group rough consensus after many iterations of language. Te = authors would recommend that the language not be changed at this point. >>=20 >> 2.1.7 re /64s. The section references rfc8273 and the working = group felt that re-iterating even in more detail that work, which = provides the added context, was not necessary in the document itself >>=20 >> Last comment on Isolation of Networks - While we did not discuss = varying network configurations, usually more explicit details are = provided in the rfcs we reference. rfc8273 referenced in Section 2.1.7 = and rfc7721 referenced in section 2.1.8 are some examples. >>=20 >> - merike >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> --- >>>=20 >>> The document doesn't talk about its intended audience. It appears = to be the >>> case based on my reading of it that the intended audience is = enterprise >>> operators and similar. This should be stated clearly and = explicitly. Some of >>> the advice in this document would be actively harmful if deployed on = an >>> unmanaged network (e.g. in a home). That doesn't mean that the = document is >>> bad=E2=80=94just that it needs to be scoped appropriately. I would = suggest adding a >>> brief statement of applicability in the abstract and a more detailed >>> explanation in the introduction. It is important that this = statement make >>> clear that the advice in this document must not be followed by = implementers of >>> home routers and similar devices. E.g., this advice would utterly = break a >>> Thread (IPv6 over 802.15.4 mesh) Border Router. >>>=20 >>> It's also not clear that this document lives up to its abstract. = The abstract >>> says: >>>=20 >>> This document analyzes the operational security issues in several >>> places of a network (enterprises, service providers and residential >>> users) and proposes technical and procedural mitigations = techniques. >>>=20 >>> And yet if you look for example at section 2.1.1, there is no actual = analysis >>> of the use of ULAs, nor is any advice on their use provided. >>>=20 >>> Section 2.1.4 doesn't mention using DHCP to provide hosts with = obfuscated >>> address that, since known to the operator, can be added to filter = lists as >>> appropriate, while still making probing mathematically challenging = to an >>> outside attacker. >>>=20 >>> Section 2.1.6 incorrectly implies that DHCPv4 binds IP addresses to = link-layer >>> addresses. This is not true. I don't know that it really matters, = but since >>> it's not true, you should fix it. DHCPv4 uses a "client = identifier," which is >>> quite similar to a DUID. If no client identifier is offered, then = the >>> link-layer address is used, but this is not required, and the = behavior >>> described for DUIDs in this document is also applicable to client = identifiers. >>>=20 >>> 2.1.7 seems to be continuing a thought that was started in 2.1.4. = It would be >>> worth stating that explicitly, and comparing and contrasting these = approaches. >>>=20 >>> Although the abstract explicitly excludes applicability to IoT = networks, the >>> advice in this document will necessarily be taken as applicable in = situations >>> where IoT networks are leaf networks or even infrastructure that is = present >>> alongside the networks that _are_ covered by this document. This = has some >>> specific impacts that aren't talked about here and should be. For = instance, >>> Manufacturer Usage Descriptions (MUD) are not mentioned, and should = be. MUD >>> is applicable to infrastructure devices and really any = special-purpose device; >>> e.g., MUD would be highly appropriate for use in hospital = environments where >>> many devices are connected to the network that absolutely must have = their >>> accessibility controlled; MUD is a good candidate for doing this. = The >>> omission of this approach from section 2,1 is a major gap, since the = issues >>> discussed in section 2.1 directly impact the feasibility of using = MUD (since >>> MUD specifies firewall behavior for devices, and devices are = necessarily >>> identified by source address). >>>=20 >>> The conclusion I'm drawing having gotten to the end of section 2.1, = in addition >>> to what I've said above, is that some of the issues introduced in = subsections >>> of section 2.1, like filterability of host addresses, really belong = in the >>> initial section 2.1 introduction, so that the subsections of 2.1 can = refer back >>> and give the reader a coherent picture, rather than requiring the = reader to >>> synthesize this as they read through the subsections. >>>=20 >>> Section 2.3.2 talks about the threat of a MITM attack through the = use of forged >>> RAs, but doesn't actually describe how prevalent such on-link = attacks are (this >>> would be an on-link attack) nor does it talk about how such an = on-link attack >>> would be more effective than an attack the attacker could do without = this >>> capability. Without a threat model, this is somewhat hypothetical. >>>=20 >>> Section 2.3.2 goes on to talk at length about how to make RA Guard = work, >>> without talking about when it is useful, what attacks it prevents, = and what >>> problems it causes when deployed incorrectly. We have actually run = into >>> serious problems working on the Thread Border Router specification = because of >>> uncertainty about whether RA Guard may be present on a network to = which the TBR >>> is attached. If it is, then the easiest way for the TBR to = advertise >>> reachability is gone, and we have to resort to bypasses such as ND = Proxy, >>> reverse NAT64, NAT66, or tunnels, just in order to ensure = reachability of the >>> leaf network. >>>=20 >>> I think it's actively harmful to recommend the use of RA guard = without talking >>> about the problems it causes and how to mitigate them. This section = should >>> explicitly say that RA guard should never be enabled by default: it = should be >>> the case that the operator enables it explicitly, and that in cases = where there >>> is no operator with the authority to set routing policy for a link, = RA guard >>> should not be used on that link. >>>=20 >>> SAVI is another extremely useful technology that can't really be = deployed >>> automatically without creating similar problems. To be clear, my = goal here is >>> not to say that the document shouldn't recommend RA guard or SAVI, = but rather >>> that it should be very clear about when to deploy it and when not = to. >>>=20 >>> In section 2.3.5, what is a "generic operating system?" I don't = know what >>> this term means. Can you use a term with a clearer meaning? >>>=20 >>> One thing I didn't see discussed in section 2 that I think belongs = there is the >>> concept of isolation of networks. Networks that provide = connectivity to >>> general-purpose devices like phones and comouters may need to = provide >>> flexibility of addressing for privacy reasons. Infrastructure = devices, >>> particularly those for which MUD is applicable, may need to be on = networks >>> where filtering is present and addressing is tightly controlled. = There's no >>> discussion fo this kind of separation in the document, and I think = it's a >>> serious gap. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OPSEC mailing list >>> OPSEC@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec >>>=20 --Apple-Mail=_0BA37F8D-B9BF-4D2B-9C86-D8C8C3B69BD6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 That=E2=80=99s a big improvement, =C3=89ric. Thanks!

On Feb 12, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> = wrote:

Ted,
 
As you guessed in your email : we, the = authors, do not want to prevent multi-homing ;-)  E.g., we already = have several =E2=80=98do not apply in all cases=E2=80=99 for several = mitigation techniques include the RA-guard one for obvious reason.
 
Just to be clear, we have used your suggestion = to modify the abstract and add an applicability statement in a -24 = version (yet to be published). We would appreciate it if you reviewed = the proposed change below.
 
--- start of abstract ---
   Knowledge and experience on how to operate IPv4 = securely is
   available: whether it is the Internet or an = enterprise internal
   network.  = However, IPv6 presents some new security challenges.  RFC
   4942 describes the security issues in the = protocol, but network
   managers also need a = more practical, operations-minded document to
   enumerate advantages and/or disadvantages of = certain choices.
 
   This document analyzes the operational security = issues associated
   with several types of network and proposes = technical and procedural
   mitigation = techniques.  This document is only applicable to managed
   networks, such as enterprise building = networks.  The recommendations
   in this document are = not applicable to residential user cases, even
   in cases where a Service Provider may be = managing the home gateway.
 
--- end of abstract = ---
 
--- start of = applicability statement (sub-section of introduction) ---
1.1.  Applicability Statement
 
   This document is applicable to managed networks, = i.e., when the
   network is operated by the user organization = itself.  Indeed, many of
   the recommended = mitigation techniques must be configured with the
   detailed knowledge of the network (which are the = default router,
   which are the switch trunk ports, etc.).  = This covers Service
   Provider (SP), = enterprise networks and some knowledgeable-home-user-
   managed residential network.  This = applicability statement especially
   applies to Section = 2.3 and Section 2.5.4.
 
   For example, an exception to the generic = recommendations of this
   document is when a = residential or enterprise network is multi-homed.
 
 
--- end of applicability statement (sub-section of = introduction) ---
 
Regards
 
-=C3=A9ric
 
From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Date: Tuesday, 9 February = 2021 at 16:59
To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>
Cc: Merike Kaeo <merike@doubleshotsecurity.com>, Kiran Kumar = Chittimaneni <kk.chittimaneni@gmail.com>, Enno Rey <erey@ernw.de>, "opsec@ietf.org" <opsec@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir = early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21
 
=C3=89ric, to be clear, your latest changes do not = successfully address my comments. For example, you talk about a managed = ISP router, and say that it=E2=80=99s okay for such a router to do all = kinds of blocking on the home network. It=E2=80=99s not=E2=80=94what = does the ISP know of the home network? How is the ISP qualified to set = security and reachability policy on the home network?
 
This will cause major operational problems. Any network on = which this is deployed will break stub networks, such as are used by the = HomePod Mini and Google=E2=80=99s Nest gateway to provide reachability = to Thread networks.
 
The text that I think you added to address my concerns is = this:
 
   The residential users case assumes a managed ISP =
CPE
   device.  Some =
very specific types of networks such as the Internet of
   Things (IoT) and =
unmanaged home networks are not discussed in this
   document.
 
This is not helping. The text should = read this way:
 
   This document is only applicable to managed =
networks, such as enterprise
   building networks. The =
recommendations in this document are not applicable
   to residential user cases, even in cases where =
an ISP may be managing the
   home gateway.
 
If you really want this to apply to the = ISP-managed home network router, it should only be in the case where the = ISP is providing a value-added service=E2=80=94where the home user is = actually paying for a person to manage their network, not just to have = an ISP-owned router that maybe gets regular firmware updates and some = centrally-managed malware site blocking. If you were to address this use = case (which I think is really unnecessary), this document needs to talk = about what an ISP would have to do to avoid creating interop problems = for IoT networks in the home. This needs to be very explicit and needs = to be mentioned in the sections where you talk about RA filtering and ND = filtering.
 
Sorry to be a sticky wicket, but I am afraid I failed to = fully communicate the seriousness of this problem back in 2019.
 
Also, I don=E2=80=99t mean to minimize = the problem you are trying to address. I=E2=80=99m just saying that we = don=E2=80=99t have the technology to address it right now, and trying to = address it on an effectively unmanaged network with existing technology = will create serious interoperability problems.
 
In addition to the IoT stub networks = issue, following this document on a home network would also eliminate = multi-homing, which I hope is not something that we are proposing to = do.


On Feb 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, Eric Vyncke = (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> = wrote:
 
Ted,

Just to confirm that the revision -23 should have all your = review items addressed except the 3 cited by Merike.

The section 2.3.2 has been revised extensively.

Thank you again for this review

-=C3=A9ric


-----Original Message-----
From: Merike Kaeo = <merike@doubleshotsecurity.com>
Date: = Thursday, 5 December 2019 at 20:13
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>, Kiran Kumar = Chittimaneni <kk.chittimaneni@gmail.com>, Enno Rey <erey@ernw.de>
Cc: <opsec@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21

   Hello Ted.

   Very much appreciate the thorough review of = the document.  All 4 authors agree with most of your comments which = will be incorporated
   in the next = revision (also includes the discussion between yourself, Gyan and Suresh = re DHCPv6).  For the comment re  section 2.3.2 and
   RAs,  can you point us to the relevant = specifications for the TBR (Threat Boarder Route) so that we can come up = with a potential addition that discusses the (non-) applicability of RA = for certain scenarios?

   For = 3 comments the authors want to preserve the existing language for = reasons stated below.

   2.1.1= on ULA: The very first draft had some specific language on ULA use and = the topic of ULAs has been a major contention area to get to working = group last call.  Some individuals felt for years that the = discussion on ULA should be to state that they are not required and not = recommended while others wanted to be more explicit on recommended = language *if* ULAs are used.  The current language on ULAs reflects = working group rough consensus after many iterations of language. =  Te authors would recommend that the language not be changed at = this point.

   2.1.7 re = /64s.  The section references rfc8273 and the working group felt = that re-iterating even in more detail that work, which provides the = added context, was not necessary in the document itself

   Last comment on Isolation of Networks - =  While we did not discuss varying network configurations, usually = more explicit details are provided in the rfcs we reference. =  rfc8273 referenced in Section 2.1.7 and rfc7721 referenced in = section 2.1.8 are some examples.

   - merike



---

The = document doesn't talk about its intended audience.  It appears to = be the
case based on my reading of it that the intended = audience is enterprise
operators and similar.  This = should be stated clearly and explicitly.  Some of
the = advice in this document would be actively harmful if deployed on an
unmanaged network (e.g. in a home).  That doesn't mean = that the document is
bad=E2=80=94just that it needs to be = scoped appropriately.   I would suggest adding a
brief statement of applicability in the abstract and a more = detailed
explanation in the introduction.  It is = important that this statement make
clear that the advice = in this document must not be followed by implementers of
home routers and similar devices.   E.g., this = advice would utterly break a
Thread (IPv6 over 802.15.4 = mesh) Border Router.

It's also not clear = that this document lives up to its abstract.   The abstract
says:

 This document = analyzes the operational security issues in several
 places of a network (enterprises, service providers and = residential
 users) and proposes technical and = procedural mitigations techniques.

And yet = if you look for example at section 2.1.1, there is no actual analysis
of the use of ULAs, nor is any advice on their use = provided.

Section 2.1.4 doesn't mention = using DHCP to provide hosts with obfuscated
address that, = since known to the operator, can be added to filter lists as
appropriate, while still making probing mathematically = challenging to an
outside attacker.

Section 2.1.6 incorrectly implies that DHCPv4 binds IP = addresses to link-layer
addresses.  This is not true. =  I don't know that it really matters, but since
it's = not true, you should fix it.  DHCPv4 uses a "client identifier," = which is
quite similar to a DUID.  If no client = identifier is offered, then the
link-layer address is = used, but this is not required, and the behavior
described = for DUIDs in this document is also applicable to client identifiers.

2.1.7 seems to be continuing a thought that = was started in 2.1.4.  It would be
worth stating that = explicitly, and comparing and contrasting these approaches.

Although the abstract explicitly excludes = applicability to IoT networks, the
advice in this document = will necessarily be taken as applicable in situations
where = IoT networks are leaf networks or even infrastructure that is present
alongside the networks that _are_ covered by this document. =  This has some
specific impacts that aren't talked = about here and should be.   For instance,
Manufacturer Usage Descriptions (MUD) are not mentioned, and = should be.   MUD
is applicable to infrastructure = devices and really any special-purpose device;
e.g., MUD = would be highly appropriate for use in hospital environments where
many devices are connected to the network that absolutely = must have their
accessibility controlled; MUD is a good = candidate for doing this.   The
omission of this = approach from section 2,1 is a major gap, since the issues
discussed in section 2.1 directly impact the feasibility of = using MUD (since
MUD specifies firewall behavior for = devices, and devices are necessarily
identified by source = address).

The conclusion I'm drawing having = gotten to the end of section 2.1, in addition
to what I've = said above, is that some of the issues introduced in subsections
of section 2.1, like filterability of host addresses, really = belong in the
initial section 2.1 introduction, so that = the subsections of 2.1 can refer back
and give the reader = a coherent picture, rather than requiring the reader to
synthesize this as they read through the subsections.

Section 2.3.2 talks about the threat of a MITM = attack through the use of forged
RAs, but doesn't actually = describe how prevalent such on-link attacks are (this
would = be an on-link attack) nor does it talk about how such an on-link = attack
would be more effective than an attack the attacker = could do without this
capability.  Without a threat = model, this is somewhat hypothetical.

Section= 2.3.2 goes on to talk at length about how to make RA Guard work,
without talking about when it is useful, what attacks it = prevents, and what
problems it causes when deployed = incorrectly.  We have actually run into
serious = problems working on the Thread Border Router specification because of
uncertainty about whether RA Guard may be present on a = network to which the TBR
is attached.  If it is, then = the easiest way for the TBR to advertise
reachability is = gone, and we have to resort to bypasses such as ND Proxy,
reverse NAT64, NAT66, or tunnels, just in order to ensure = reachability of the
leaf network.

I think it's actively harmful to recommend the use of RA = guard without talking
about the problems it causes and how = to mitigate them.  This section should
explicitly say = that RA guard should never be enabled by default: it should be
the case that the operator enables it explicitly, and that in = cases where there
is no operator with the authority to set = routing policy for a link, RA guard
should not be used on = that link.

SAVI is another extremely useful = technology that can't really be deployed
automatically = without creating similar problems.  To be clear, my goal here is
not to say that the document shouldn't recommend RA guard or = SAVI, but rather
that it should be very clear about when = to deploy it and when not to.

In section = 2.3.5, what is a "generic operating system?"   I don't know = what
this term means.   Can you use a term with = a clearer meaning?

One thing I didn't see = discussed in section 2 that I think belongs there is the
concept of isolation of networks.  Networks that provide = connectivity to
general-purpose devices like phones and = comouters may need to provide
flexibility of addressing = for privacy reasons.  Infrastructure devices,
particularly those for which MUD is applicable, may need to = be on networks
where filtering is present and addressing = is tightly controlled.  There's no
discussion fo this = kind of separation in the document, and I think it's a
serious gap.


_______________________________________________
OPSEC mailing list
OPSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec


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Archived-At: Subject: [OPSEC] I-D Action: draft-ietf-opsec-v6-24.txt X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:50:15 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Operational Security Capabilities for IP Network Infrastructure WG of the IETF. Title : Operational Security Considerations for IPv6 Networks Authors : Eric Vyncke Kiran Kumar Merike Kaeo Enno Rey Filename : draft-ietf-opsec-v6-24.txt Pages : 56 Date : 2021-02-12 Abstract: Knowledge and experience on how to operate IPv4 securely is available: whether it is the Internet or an enterprise internal network. However, IPv6 presents some new security challenges. RFC 4942 describes the security issues in the protocol, but network managers also need a more practical, operations-minded document to enumerate advantages and/or disadvantages of certain choices. This document analyzes the operational security issues associated with several types of network and proposes technical and procedural mitigation techniques. This document is only applicable to managed networks, such as enterprise building networks. The recommendations in this document are not applicable to residential user cases, even in cases where a Service Provider may be managing the home gateway. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsec-v6/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-24 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-opsec-v6-24 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-opsec-v6-24 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Feb 12 14:12:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660863A0FED for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:12:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cxdFnLRlPV1h for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4D5E3A0FEC for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:4181:442:5061:d73f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 880D4283E23; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 22:12:41 +0000 (UTC) To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , "liushucheng@huawei.com" Cc: "opsec@ietf.org" References: <75C0A8A3-D5D2-4A5A-8F20-DCEDAAE019AA@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <07bb73ad-913b-2b83-f05c-cf4ed6b50056@si6networks.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 19:10:01 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <75C0A8A3-D5D2-4A5A-8F20-DCEDAAE019AA@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] IPR on draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 22:12:47 -0000 Hi, Eric, Good grief! No IPRs that I know of. Thanks, Fernando On 12/2/21 12:41, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > > > Fernando, Will, > > As your document is going through a 2^nd WGLC, there is a need to > refresh the document shepherd write-up so I have to check again with you > whether there are some IPR to be declared (i.e., I need a positive or > negative reply from you). > > This call for IPR disclosure is also applicable to the OPSEC WG members. > > Best regards > > -éric > > > > > _______________________________________________ > OPSEC mailing list > OPSEC@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsec > -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Feb 13 00:15:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B457E3A0975 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:15:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: 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(10.206.15.54) by fraeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2106.2; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:15:22 +0100 Received: from DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.39) by fraeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.2106.2 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 09:15:22 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.90]) by DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::b177:a243:7a69:5ab8%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0509.000; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 16:15:18 +0800 From: "Liushucheng (Will LIU, Strategy & Industry Development)" To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" CC: "opsec@ietf.org" , Fernando Gont Thread-Topic: [OPSEC] IPR on draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering Thread-Index: AQHXAVWOCAX2um4+zEuEdp7tx5UJzapUjtWAgAEu/2A= Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:15:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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<0QOL00FD3R8BSX00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 19:33:48 -0800 (PST) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: <99FA8310-CDA8-4FCA-90F9-FE0952D95D93@fugue.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 19:33:47 -0800 Cc: Ted Lemon , Merike Kaeo , KK Chittimaneni , Enno Rey , "opsec@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <1EA99726-2050-4B05-8D8F-924A52D2303E@apple.com> References: <157394737956.25908.2003745932020934234@ietfa.amsl.com> <7BCD5A24-D200-48F9-8410-7F1D5BA28B28@cisco.com> <20F36D91-A80F-49F8-9820-BAB18BACB4B5@fugue.com> <2B0A426F-9414-4FC2-99A1-DF71D495F02C@cisco.com> <99FA8310-CDA8-4FCA-90F9-FE0952D95D93@fugue.com> To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-02-15_16:2021-02-12, 2021-02-15 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 03:34:01 -0000 Thank you =C3=89ric for making this change. If ISPs were to to implement and enable RA-Guard in ISP-supplied home = gateways, that would break both Apple HomeKit and the upcoming Project = Connected Home over IP . It would be a = pity to break residential IoT in the infancy of the IoT industry, and it = would create a lot of support telephone calls for Apple, other = residential IoT vendors, and ISPs. Stuart Cheshire On Feb 12, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = wrote: > Ted, >=20 > As you guessed in your email : we, the authors, do not want to prevent = multi-homing ;-) E.g., we already have several =E2=80=98do not apply in = all cases=E2=80=99 for several mitigation techniques include the = RA-guard one for obvious reason. >=20 > Just to be clear, we have used your suggestion to modify the abstract = and add an applicability statement in a -24 version (yet to be = published). We would appreciate it if you reviewed the proposed change = below. >=20 > --- start of abstract --- > Knowledge and experience on how to operate IPv4 securely is > available: whether it is the Internet or an enterprise internal > network. However, IPv6 presents some new security challenges. RFC > 4942 describes the security issues in the protocol, but network > managers also need a more practical, operations-minded document to > enumerate advantages and/or disadvantages of certain choices. >=20 > This document analyzes the operational security issues associated > with several types of network and proposes technical and procedural > mitigation techniques. This document is only applicable to managed > networks, such as enterprise building networks. The = recommendations > in this document are not applicable to residential user cases, even > in cases where a Service Provider may be managing the home gateway. >=20 > --- end of abstract --- >=20 > --- start of applicability statement (sub-section of introduction) --- > 1.1. Applicability Statement >=20 > This document is applicable to managed networks, i.e., when the > network is operated by the user organization itself. Indeed, many = of > the recommended mitigation techniques must be configured with the > detailed knowledge of the network (which are the default router, > which are the switch trunk ports, etc.). This covers Service > Provider (SP), enterprise networks and some = knowledgeable-home-user- > managed residential network. This applicability statement = especially > applies to Section 2.3 and Section 2.5.4. >=20 > For example, an exception to the generic recommendations of this > document is when a residential or enterprise network is = multi-homed. >=20 > --- end of applicability statement (sub-section of introduction) --- From nobody Tue Feb 16 02:35:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418AA3A11C0 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:35:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=space.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4gGIgtw77xhq for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper1-relay.space.net (gatekeeper1-relay.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:3:85::38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5558D3A11BA for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:35:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=space.net; i=@space.net; q=dns/txt; s=esa; t=1613471706; x=1645007706; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to; bh=75qtKtUCynA7rKT7ywuakDC7WKOTbp98a6i0Hs49zQg=; b=hSpckqcSizw8Cr18rD1f8WNc2W/fZcaMoJOfNLzy9kPIN8sIpwXUHKbb cuSArJIA+0wISCNGlTTABmJM0jMD1l0FZfZDjkUhrkSrgL7iCamCm04sS EwGpkj3LVoC3vhfzI5QnJGKQ9sRorWNiaZjzOncK4QZEW7kGCvkChSR5b zSqtI6bcj3ihsEm8GCHYsbGTaUeRFB33OShuSvlvTiLVjJi2gVxz6mijZ sLLaAtn5uo8xYpCe0fadcdrlMYTRm43+Ov9Zr0JUu9/tKiJ4ciga1Jgrv Hekl0MCk+Ywj/mdo6CrkH8io8QKWnO8mZwhyZojaq4in6A/jT6lEj3PbQ g==; IronPort-SDR: wpjbHAG6lm8g9DIyVoF8WKI/XWiar6Yow/cmYm/oN1EU0UWkCBpkI+m5V76MMVs3ZChckl3weL tX7tbbXlCPxxf0Y3p16x3ljH/S/IwMK0TlYgrQSElqkTecVlMbsKb8MLLiJwl98L/zrB0zaqsx IPJbZvnGUWf4u/4HI6eZLW22k2Aw/IQAtnPoxZzYKa11gpLtNI66ON25zF43sRlALKmDWZDoww JqCNh431vR6LjQNARypyVXJx2lYllk5+W9MVomPPsjVS4G1hF/dBcrsbaZi0wJ00Fgx7UvBjI5 Wxw= X-SpaceNet-SBRS: None Received: from mobil.space.net ([195.30.115.67]) by gatekeeper1-relay.space.net with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Feb 2021 11:35:00 +0100 X-Original-To: opsec@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C32443B83 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:34:57 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D409440D97; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:34:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id CC8F7F5C59; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:34:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 11:34:56 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Stuart Cheshire Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric?= Vyncke , Ted Lemon , "opsec@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari Message-ID: References: <157394737956.25908.2003745932020934234@ietfa.amsl.com> <7BCD5A24-D200-48F9-8410-7F1D5BA28B28@cisco.com> <20F36D91-A80F-49F8-9820-BAB18BACB4B5@fugue.com> <2B0A426F-9414-4FC2-99A1-DF71D495F02C@cisco.com> <99FA8310-CDA8-4FCA-90F9-FE0952D95D93@fugue.com> <1EA99726-2050-4B05-8D8F-924A52D2303E@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1EA99726-2050-4B05-8D8F-924A52D2303E@apple.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 10:35:10 -0000 Hi, On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 07:33:47PM -0800, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > Thank you Éric for making this change. > > If ISPs were to to implement and enable RA-Guard in ISP-supplied home gateways, that would break both Apple HomeKit and the upcoming Project Connected Home over IP . Why so? What sort of RAs are these devices sending to the network shared with the "home gateway"? > It would be a pity to break residential IoT in the infancy of the IoT industry, and it would create a lot of support telephone calls for Apple, other residential IoT vendors, and ISPs. If "basic network hygiene" creates support calls, something is not right. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Feb 16 04:38:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895B73A0B1D for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:38:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mWRvLiLP3ey5 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC69C3A0B13 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id m144so9150699qke.10 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:38:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=5YwEaxQJDSPOZkgERUYhZ/fNm4PLNOWCsoRcHCz5TUk=; b=aSng/9jiGcaRlen0+cnpMyAhs2ylTIaciTS4nvpCRckzcW9YhvToqdbXFe49+ZBshz dNQD0qxpdwIYs3CvFL2NcqRZ1fYm0UR2RVvmuf5RQ0vz4XfkNC2JuhZp6s9fwNisFu/7 aSESoOmTrV4TMnnwna8tTDG9ZzNkKvP9g+XpwC7c7Zcpyw2HMRGgHZ5Yh29VB4et9Ob1 MeH3BD+8SfYtViOjfSVJtxwJ5X3rDDaspLt1rnEBYK7aA0tNfCrDguTImh91bwqKPsds hfQTiJw3VpUZ8ryefuzD3AnO49PS24/fpXfK7CUZn4qP6byiPKpCo6ZkmT3/NpstqUCb IMcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=5YwEaxQJDSPOZkgERUYhZ/fNm4PLNOWCsoRcHCz5TUk=; b=aJIBEe2DKV4jqKxr84WJXyUIh2kM8hAJJr2nJEIfW6mC1vgLhmDxx0ZiOxKOT5oaPB kx7IthZ4oVeRTVZAGsDRwpSXO4Ztg6/J5OetRB0z/McHj56CUji0WM0ZEY7Nv0+YA1oC kDp30WFSFACFU3TmqlWgZea93rT8qnjRy5bFYADgtN5zE1/UW28eMq7ocayIdqEi8GMQ oBZbK4uOclp4OUBpxkgEvv3lV7Q6+WcWLOdAdbP20ahMkDYBHnjqYbbcUKeEnxsqumtg ovxuE2R7NZU1+GJyap1v2itoxY3sPa0cFW/Uq1i6FztdSALOaiiaxnNGtusbdbIr+IBx Tyzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5303u56fc65fK/Mv6g7xmFDYaiUPel8aNYAiFpelD3JILhGaaEi1 uvgB3WXKJRD3/+3ZbksDCHGvmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4WKWzA4P6hPoCQ0nXF2lP+qzibk7IHH1n4rHw/19PQlTT2hiQoWxmEbzg4GYxStxGoII9Ow== X-Received: by 2002:a37:7f02:: with SMTP id a2mr19504677qkd.294.1613479123562; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c-24-91-177-160.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 7sm6403770qkk.39.2021.02.16.04.38.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 04:38:43 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ted Lemon Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 07:38:41 -0500 Message-Id: <923E8868-047C-4FB4-B625-6E74E4262B5B@fugue.com> References: Cc: Stuart Cheshire , =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= , opsec@ietf.org, Warren Kumari In-Reply-To: To: Gert Doering X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18E156) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:38:47 -0000 They provide non-default routes to the IoT network, of course. > On Feb 16, 2021, at 05:35, Gert Doering wrote: > > What sort of RAs are these devices sending to the network > shared with the "home gateway"? From nobody Tue Feb 16 05:37:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E843A0C9A for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:37:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=space.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zHPmkBQmzfQi for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper1-relay.space.net (gatekeeper1-relay.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:3:85::38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D5CC3A0C98 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:37:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=space.net; i=@space.net; q=dns/txt; s=esa; t=1613482665; x=1645018665; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=JNYQwG7wQZsSAdwklv865O/Tb0J09U0VfKADuTBsOf0=; b=iZatnywyHunldXgRSdLFdi7kke5yO4FGkoDuOWUJloFBg1nVfgyILsec lX8QjxzS8xV3yMvEVO5tAmQU4JWNTw9jaNIOKgW5lwjY0N8umZlZFy0EP Rq7C75OGobK6H+hRPSjwVoMDupHeS/IynidB9p49twDTvjIhoZQK9oU8c vRd8f3oqn9L9atgw2Yk6QRZ3pVuj7GPeWalPejY4jZbtixUEu9w+bkfMS GKD22YYaboHkNVpGd/yM/jodE2s9m2Q548BVIKmMeylfwsMhxIBMSOx97 PCvLPAA8Zub5aw6A/7EjuZA+IC/7sM33eyfV6Jq7F0qHsQtW6GpBVR3ye g==; IronPort-SDR: +Il1jOsPRndaExmXfeJR9hWn/sKLMC7HBHiXcdpMjbidBkPOONC+S9J8/jishAoLv9YDq1TLrd iaOtTxX9tvZGudBBzHW5IfmIn5jYoGQd5i+yHSudqz2bANMgAMfS8fFQFJ5DUe5eWkpiLNJoXY kNujHFVAX27QR6Jcl4a/jYQQ/WlsZNqI80/gfJrkcrbv1/58YhwhNiFiFKU+5yceO6lju4Dh21 k3/XnX7yKYUKp2/EtNRXTdL6TJPoUaK0dH45WGuRbGT1AZOATtkJxoqge2/LpUizE1lEoxKpkl Oqo= X-SpaceNet-SBRS: None Received: from mobil.space.net ([195.30.115.67]) by gatekeeper1-relay.space.net with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Feb 2021 14:37:39 +0100 X-Original-To: opsec@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4037743B86 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:37:39 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C321043B80; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:37:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id BCB6DF7107; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:37:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:37:38 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Ted Lemon Cc: Gert Doering , Stuart Cheshire , =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric?= Vyncke , opsec@ietf.org, Warren Kumari Message-ID: References: <923E8868-047C-4FB4-B625-6E74E4262B5B@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0eV43OLO0KMJRIXG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <923E8868-047C-4FB4-B625-6E74E4262B5B@fugue.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 13:37:48 -0000 --0eV43OLO0KMJRIXG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 07:38:41AM -0500, Ted Lemon wrote: > They provide non-default routes to the IoT network, of course.=20 >=20 > > On Feb 16, 2021, at 05:35, Gert Doering wrote: > >=20 > > What sort of RAs are these devices sending to the network > > shared with the "home gateway"? Not sure what of that is "of course" and what "routes to the IoT network" might be... Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --0eV43OLO0KMJRIXG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAmAryqAACgkQ31bAZeTO f8WwXQ//VHF1x9GPgWJG4GrZSUtkYYyRW9r52wThKW0p49SJrzdsv6e+bAgC13x+ nh0s0RTvKf23STbW9cfwCnuc5JwyU0RfMWst1TDdua4PPeoKFHBzGWr58cx2f5ci az4VwzomMpWMr0q2T8y30+oA268g+wtTvJdk5N/1cWxT9Sk6yoQE+58uPE3BeWJe JqjcgXgmeA0b8QQToN6Do70plnoTCRk4CL1zASnvUu6aAAcG7C6SKS3lCsnrDeyH bLG6oGidIfi3TCxDO5O5MscwvGsARhCC+L6mq4lT4EYR450uqapz+SL8icG2qJ+z DGmAydSHAUe7tWRyq/fr8DxJl6UCH8GG+mJroeC9hfSqgen/x/V3sPfWkQwrS4fL P/jha91CgqCeImU1rhpOMfUVMsoDMHyCa4ooVPQShMJFZlnpBgLDyxslMfCTgp1A cZveZ+JJNbBS9jMHXqe92pq1di2lbqJwHZjSAjmKY65n3AuJiuK6ieLwnK2sBaZq 9hsHb8idk//Xu30QanmOYs46VMjBaS6iXsOECTviRy4fG7FRFa7CykSCkMZFiigY EXODjNVD17PntdssNYPFJo8PYxGCXYvZ8NE3A/lyZdsoI5RNenBVhAJ6ZyNN/Ogv yra/MxP3A49XNmettCOvMaPLOVDwI6M2jE274KLv8wndUx7VpJk= =0p7o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0eV43OLO0KMJRIXG-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 05:50:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97583A0CD8 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:50:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vfmKv0Z0vZyc for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 028F13A0CD4 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id t62so9374283qke.7 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:50:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=jdLXX0wnAn7XbwYNiwRQNae6myOXnMZmqZidCyRXuqM=; b=1pIy5mh3gjIhpTt/v++FeSaNZp6F58VMvNlSXNgAzF/QOGnwL6rZdiLfEgHB+ZQsOn nOR9CxeWgjp4qmtUdYnq2iR9wz0kERFp1jIp2Nrrg0iySGAZ3rUA8qE0O6Cupp/+TtF6 AJlSksheK2v5v7Q+zrFB8YIKxlat1sb0DadJT5ZiwYKv5zxZ0wHa8HpC8TJSK+nkr+B+ sXkrJE/6Bw+WBeS3Ah5KXtQJ5rdDR0ESxy4gCszySJHrnGljk7qcVIMYlGaZD0pDmuWD mAMEE93oBFYaf6Ne6w5nmEZxDtUCNGhW6zME4ONEs+N3NKK04wvwZpBL90yKrU8UQOKG //+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=jdLXX0wnAn7XbwYNiwRQNae6myOXnMZmqZidCyRXuqM=; b=ZRXUB+8HYJqOOXXjyFqk1cGCCbLWCyRYSV5PUIvBTJ25V07BLZfl1xVWPdMkYYyJNU uMDniRawqaYw5kWLcmOqFxnk3iJtVXqekbZ5RS/h0ecHj2dM3xNYPxZVbiANoCjiM2LE Rj0P3l1yBzqXrv7PUBe4Lxk7K8wytsjpATc57F47KfvqB41g96d6uXRD6BJr9CPk8zE9 fYHuwB5W9uVN9w6dMxNojSkKXRcGYfkgw0OFcBbd20kDYVfqry9rpJbrLzkggNB4f8fL 0fc0v6vf0CcuLoFAzxwH+J3jyYlFj9I4CZ+eP4yWmgZ+wN/Bc40FE+DboNcJ3k6nplrF nTyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531OS7H+QXJ1ornZGb4Zc5k0EuwjPk3sUjd2tuzLtylU9JZOv9SB ii62Or/aaMwqNdQdhInp6B6+kQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwKxVfPQ6N5KvvvFXEbg1ofMEBp0j4mqLASA7S1i41uehvKvxQLwghQbPLefp0J96bxn/AHBg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:9b8b:: with SMTP id d133mr13632832qke.58.1613483400676; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c-24-91-177-160.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c81sm14053238qkb.88.2021.02.16.05.49.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 05:50:00 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <6D897ABF-B27C-4E82-A1A6-F2AB23FFAA28@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0CA2A84F-07D6-4CBD-8103-2F3E6E8417F6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.32\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:49:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stuart Cheshire , =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= , opsec@ietf.org, Warren Kumari To: Gert Doering References: <923E8868-047C-4FB4-B625-6E74E4262B5B@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 13:50:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0CA2A84F-07D6-4CBD-8103-2F3E6E8417F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 16, 2021, at 8:37 AM, Gert Doering wrote: > Not sure what of that is "of course" and what "routes to the IoT = network" > might be=E2=80=A6 Router Advertisements advertise routers, prefixes, and routes, among = other things. They can advertise a default router (and hence a default = route), or they can advertise a non-default router that provides more = specific routes, for example to an IoT stub network. Unless you prefer = that we just bridge constrained networks to Wifi or Ethernet = infrastructure networks at layer 2? See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-stub-networks-ps-00 (update = coming soon) FWIW, the situation for IoT (stub) networks is no different than the = situation for multi-homing: you have two routers connected to the same = link, both multicasting RAs to the link. Which one do you want your = network infrastructure to automatically filter? --Apple-Mail=_0CA2A84F-07D6-4CBD-8103-2F3E6E8417F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 16, 2021, at 8:37 AM, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> = wrote:
Not sure what = of that is "of course" and what "routes to the IoT network"
might = be=E2=80=A6

Router Advertisements advertise routers, prefixes, and = routes, among other things. They can advertise a default router (and = hence a default route), or they can advertise a non-default router that = provides more specific routes, for example to an IoT stub network. = Unless you prefer that we just bridge constrained networks to Wifi or = Ethernet infrastructure networks at layer 2?

See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-stub-networks-ps-00= (update coming soon)

FWIW, the situation for IoT (stub) networks is no different = than the situation for multi-homing: you have two routers connected to = the same link, both multicasting RAs to the link. Which one do you want = your network infrastructure to automatically filter?

= --Apple-Mail=_0CA2A84F-07D6-4CBD-8103-2F3E6E8417F6-- From nobody Tue Feb 16 06:03:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: opsec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BCBD3A0CED for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:03:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=space.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4urqxzv-bSkA for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper1-relay.space.net (gatekeeper1-relay.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:3:85::38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 955773A0CF0 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:03:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=space.net; i=@space.net; q=dns/txt; s=esa; t=1613484187; x=1645020187; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=zrIe+T3xx/TUXwedOyDQ764DrHaf/pL4ECcCM6wsRLg=; b=X5EdyMy+F8bXOn7s0fiOFMnnHkrIYWeNN+Yk8mgQYlYM9g9Ls67K5fZa mxBbReJqN0uKIF62yeKY0O2JC3Lk8cCmOt0NXQ0U8tYXVtMqWf/MMCiMx PU4gO0C32V51TXGd+KmSb2WOX3Ul9D9tKae3Gr5PsqbKi6Z3bNdooXU/7 GdvI4LbTIPJg9ZfqPW81s6b8Um4+y3ECsiw5xkIrgFBn3mL/GWFfyDi+H GFUIHsmgOHSyKvqYiUglkVmxbma1GfxMgT1//HbLor0YqmqQuv3WrsZGv gTLk/C9WlnMOJ/nRkhA61jWF65Z//SkDWAKprAwlw3lyxHhWFRj/Bl5Lt g==; IronPort-SDR: YmcHbAxB9dS4AbgxBrQkXqXuA601QTrJOof4PP/1wbhWq3cH48/sTXmoKzKYtEDemh3Y5+2sX9 Go7dPQcsBwUhUYeTIzxIoCqhczsA+OcBzUYJ/+pVOIA5luut+XAxpUV2p7LT2ruNtOXjxttpuc kJc4jl7goFCPAt23LqjCwUvdnTBXwD1ygGQ5HVR9/+RpSo6O6Tga/Qw3de83oWzb76jIwJRaqZ VOpj43zMMaDPbOHqFw4fNTtf2st7Zx8WpiNEbkZlV9NHFYOIB4OR1Vj9jtScFKGbbXJrbvCaOR zEE= X-SpaceNet-SBRS: None Received: from mobil.space.net ([195.30.115.67]) by gatekeeper1-relay.space.net with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Feb 2021 15:03:05 +0100 X-Original-To: opsec@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0C643B83 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:03:05 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8401A43B80; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:03:04 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 82534F7115; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:03:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:03:04 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Ted Lemon Cc: Gert Doering , Stuart Cheshire , =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric?= Vyncke , opsec@ietf.org, Warren Kumari Message-ID: References: <923E8868-047C-4FB4-B625-6E74E4262B5B@fugue.com> <6D897ABF-B27C-4E82-A1A6-F2AB23FFAA28@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1nXQYjBayxAeUbl3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6D897ABF-B27C-4E82-A1A6-F2AB23FFAA28@fugue.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:03:10 -0000 --1nXQYjBayxAeUbl3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 08:49:58AM -0500, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Feb 16, 2021, at 8:37 AM, Gert Doering wrote: > > Not sure what of that is "of course" and what "routes to the IoT networ= k" > > might be??? >=20 > Router Advertisements advertise routers, prefixes, and routes, among=20 > other things. They can advertise a default router (and hence a default=20 > route), or they can advertise a non-default router that provides more=20 > specific routes, for example to an IoT stub network.=20 You say! I wouldn't have guessed that. So, where would that IoT network get their addresses from? How would the router in my house know that it should listen to this RA, so other routed segments will be able to reach the IOT segment? (Routers do usually do not listen to RAs) How would my machines be able to differenciate between "this is a good RA" and "everything else that is sending a RA around is not"? > FWIW, the situation for IoT (stub) networks is no different than > the situation for multi-homing: you have two routers connected to > the same link, both multicasting RAs to the link. Which one do you > want your network infrastructure to automatically filter? Arguably dual-RA multihoming is not working very well today. =20 Like, "not at all". Because hosts do not send their outgoing packets to the "right" router, depending on source address, even if they should - and because routers do not honour RAs, so if the hosts sends a packet to the "wrong" router,=20 it will not be forwarded by "router A" to "router B", so it can be sent to the correct ISP. Assuming BCP38 filtering on the ISP side, of course. HNCP had/has the potential to make that work in a very nice way. Coming back to the original question: I think permitting some random device to inject RAs into arbitrary networks to connect IoT stub networks fully conforms to the mantra "the 'S' in IoT stands for 'Security'"... Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. 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[24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r25sm11638711qtt.89.2021.02.16.06.19.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:19:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <8F6D4189-A7DB-4154-B4C4-13839C2988CB@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D394AB23-CD7D-4403-A80B-5BD90B675734" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.32\)) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:19:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stuart Cheshire , =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= , opsec@ietf.org, Warren Kumari To: Gert Doering References: <923E8868-047C-4FB4-B625-6E74E4262B5B@fugue.com> <6D897ABF-B27C-4E82-A1A6-F2AB23FFAA28@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [OPSEC] Iotdir early review of draft-ietf-opsec-v6-21 X-BeenThere: opsec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: opsec wg mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:19:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D394AB23-CD7D-4403-A80B-5BD90B675734 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 16, 2021, at 9:03 AM, Gert Doering wrote: > So, where would that IoT network get their addresses from? To reach out to the cloud, it can use NAT64. To reach in, it needs IPv6, = because there is no practical way to do NAT64 in the other direction. So = the IoT router advertises an on-link autoconf prefix on the = infrastructure link if there is no prefix on the link, and it advertises = a non-default route to the prefix it=E2=80=99s advertising on the IoT = network. Both prefixes are ULA prefixes, so it gets them by making them = up with a random number generator. :) > How would the router in my house know that it should listen to this > RA, so other routed segments will be able to reach the IOT segment? > (Routers do usually do not listen to RAs) If you have a multi-subnet home network, you will get the same behavior = you get now for IoT devices connected to different links: they won=E2=80=99= t be useable other than on the link to which they are attached. In the = case of an IoT stub network, you will be able to use devices on the stub = network on the link to which it is attached. If you want more than that, = you can set up prefix delegation. In principle the stub router could do = HNCP where it=E2=80=99s available, but since that=E2=80=99s nowhere, and = since HNCP doesn=E2=80=99t solve the naming problem, there=E2=80=99s not = much point. > Because hosts do not send their outgoing packets to the "right" = router, > depending on source address, even if they should - and because routers = do > not honour RAs, so if the hosts sends a packet to the "wrong" router,=20= > it will not be forwarded by "router A" to "router B", so it can be = sent > to the correct ISP. Assuming BCP38 filtering on the ISP side, of = course. > HNCP had/has the potential to make that work in a very nice way. Actually that would be Babel. HNCP doesn=E2=80=99t solve this problem. > Coming back to the original question: I think permitting some random > device to inject RAs into arbitrary networks to connect IoT stub = networks > fully conforms to the mantra "the 'S' in IoT stands for 'Security=E2=80=99= " What distinguishes a =E2=80=9Crandom device=E2=80=9D from a =E2=80=9Cnot = random device=E2=80=9D? That=E2=80=99s the problem. If you are really = concerned, you could have your =E2=80=9Cnot a random device" filter out = default RAs, but that would still cause operational problems=E2=80=94just = fewer of them. And BTW HNCP is no more secure than RA. And on an HNCP network RAs are = vital for informing hosts of which router to communicate with, because = default routes won=E2=80=99t work in a self-configuring mesh topology. You might want to read the document I pointed you to. --Apple-Mail=_D394AB23-CD7D-4403-A80B-5BD90B675734 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 16, 2021, at 9:03 AM, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> = wrote:
So, where = would that IoT network get their addresses from?

To reach out to the cloud, it can use NAT64. To reach in, it = needs IPv6, because there is no practical way to do NAT64 in the other = direction. So the IoT router advertises an on-link autoconf prefix on = the infrastructure link if there is no prefix on the link, and it = advertises a non-default route to the prefix it=E2=80=99s advertising on = the IoT network. Both prefixes are ULA prefixes, so it gets them by = making them up with a random number generator. :)
How would the router in my = house know that it should listen to this
RA, so other routed segments = will be able to reach the IOT segment?
(Routers do usually do not = listen to RAs)

If = you have a multi-subnet home network, you will get the same behavior you = get now for IoT devices connected to different links: they won=E2=80=99t = be useable other than on the link to which they are attached. In the = case of an IoT stub network, you will be able to use devices on the stub = network on the link to which it is attached. If you want more than that, = you can set up prefix delegation. In principle the stub router could do = HNCP where it=E2=80=99s available, but since that=E2=80=99s nowhere, and = since HNCP doesn=E2=80=99t solve the naming problem, there=E2=80=99s not = much point.

Because hosts do not send their outgoing = packets to the "right" router,
depending on source address, even if they = should - and because routers do
not honour RAs, so if the hosts sends a = packet to the "wrong" router, 
it will not be forwarded by = "router A" to "router B", so it can be sent
to the = correct ISP.  Assuming BCP38 filtering on the ISP side, of = course.
HNCP had/has the potential to make that work = in a very nice way.

Actually that would be Babel. HNCP = doesn=E2=80=99t solve this problem.

Coming back to the original = question: I think permitting some random
device to inject RAs into = arbitrary networks to connect IoT stub networks
fully = conforms to the mantra "the 'S' in IoT stands for = 'Security=E2=80=99"

What distinguishes a =E2=80=9Crandom = device=E2=80=9D from a =E2=80=9Cnot random device=E2=80=9D? That=E2=80=99s= the problem. If you are really concerned, you could have your =E2=80=9Cno= t a random device" filter out default RAs, but that would still cause = operational problems=E2=80=94just fewer of them.

And BTW HNCP is no more secure than RA. = And on an HNCP network RAs are vital for informing hosts of which router = to communicate with, because default routes won=E2=80=99t work in a = self-configuring mesh topology.

You might want to read the document I = pointed you to.

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