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Passwords for ospf-wireless-design-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org uxefev https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/ospf-wireless-design/ospf-wireless-design-archive%40ietf.org From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 5 20:28:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA28907; Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BsseX-0000bS-II; Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:32:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BssSS-0005eD-7g; Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:19:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BssPC-00053F-6T for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:16:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA28486 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.71] helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BssSm-0000Sy-V7 for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:20:01 -0400 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2004 17:17:00 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com [171.71.163.14]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i760FiVF021702 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irp-view9.cisco.com (irp-view9.cisco.com [171.70.65.147]) by mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.5-GR) with ESMTP id AVY99256; Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:15:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Abhay Roy To: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060740@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060740@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 48472a944c87678fcfe8db15ffecdfff Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] Minutes from first design team meeting X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ccfb4541e989aa743998098cd315d0fd Selected notes from OSPF design team meeting @IETF, August 4, 2004 (Tom Henderson and Abhay Roy) Attendees: Acee Lindem Joe Macker Abhay Roy Tom Henderson Thomas Clausen Padma Pillay-Esnault (manet as transit network or stub) padma: Would like a pointer to wireless models and background information on this problem domain. Also would like to understand what is the optimum architecture scenario for this design effort. acee: is it possible for the manet cloud to be a transit for two fixed wireline networks? abhay: should be possible for manet to be transit joe: would like to see a wireless interface, need to understand first order performance drivers. existing MANET protocols probably handle many of existing stub network configuration Joe: look at the stuff that reliable multicast transport has worked on. A mix of streaming reliable and unreliable flows. The NORM work. tom: similarly, should we consider the generic flooding protocol under development in MANET as a potential service to leverage? joe: not sure. if it gets developed as something which we can reuse then it's a possibility. acee: should manet be like a stub area or be an interface scope? worry about containing manet instability. abhay: it's more of a deployment question. we should allow the flexibility of being able to introduce a manet interface in any place in the network. (discussion on unreliable flooding) abhay: in high mobility scenario it seems attractive to not have to worry about acks. like a hybrid approach. tricky to switch between reliable and unreliable. granularity could perhaps be per lsa. tom: maybe just do reliable for now as long as possibility to perhaps add unreliable later [not clear if we will address unreliable flooding in first phase] (hello optimizations) acee: if hello overhead is not high, perhaps we should not attempt to optimize it. focus on biggest overheads (flooding). abhay: we are introducing various TLVs in hellos which make the overhead a bit higher. not sure, if the overhead will remain low. (discussion on scaling limits) padma: have seen up to 250 neighbors/node in certain customer networks acee: using modern memory and microprocessors, the I/O performance dwarfs anything that is in the protocol. I/O must be tuned. joe: some customers have asked for things on the order of a thousand nodes, but some expectations are unrealistic abhay: they do want 1000 nodes in the network, but not necessarily in one area. we could work on some clustering like solution. (area mobility and multi-area) joe: fred's earlier work included how a node could move from one area to other due to mobility abhay: so far we are focussing one a single area. area mobility is challenging in various respects. for e.g. if you could attach to multiple areas how to choose? [general agreement to keep the immediate solutions to single area] (discussion on Cisco implementation status) joe: is this going to be a design team? or is Cisco already committed to a particular approach? abhay: cisco is already developing the chandra draft thomas: what timeframe do we need to work towards to make sure that design team outputs are not overcome by events? abhay: cisco will implement IETF standards when that becomes ready. cisco looking for guidance on what areas we are charterd to work on, and may sit back (for Phase II) on additional features that are of interest to Cisco but not in charter of design team. thomas: would like the reverse-- would like cisco to educate the design team on what the most useful features might be, rather than sitting back (because cisco has direct customer input) (discussion on layer2/3 APIs) joe: has done a lot of work on radio/router APIs. things that can be done to enhance performance (link sensing). abhay: cisco has PPPoE interface along these lines. So it's possible for radio to pass in information about link characteristics and also about neighbor going down. abhay: not everything needs to be standardized with respect to layer-2 information, because it doesn't change the protocol. tom: some things do, if they affect interoperability (like hello suppression in lieu of layer-2 neighbor discovery). tom: also, some layer-2 issues are relatively straightforward (neighbor up/down), but other such as time varying link quality being reflected in the link metrics is trickier and requires hysterisis, etc. (joe discussion on his experience with fading channels and extra things that need to be done in protocols, such as hysterisis, and not relying too much on reception of layer-3 hellos without low-pass filtering them, to make them work in practical radio environments) (goals of group) abhay: need a contained charter to focus on what we work on joe: how to document results and issues of this design team? padma: need to write some of this guidance down (lessons learned about wireless) tom: maybe OSPF MANET problem statement (Baker et al) is a good starting point joe: that would need more work thomas?: how long will group run for? abhay: can we do something before next ietf? or will it take longer? joe: depends on what we decide to do and how hard it ends up being. acee: we should finish the (new) problem statement before next ietf. joe: not necessarily going for the optimal solution in this group-- would like to start with something "simple" tom: what is "simple"? maybe we should agree on modest scenarios [general belief that the design team could take upto an year] abhay: should the design team produce one final document? (meeting outcome) i) Agreed to work on a problem statement/scope (small 2-3 pages) as a first step. Acee and Joe to help craft a tighter problem statement. Design team members should provide their inputs as to what is important to have included in this statement. In particular, what are the scenarios of most interest to participants (can't design something to fit every conceivable scenario) ii) group will provide some kind of draft specification? not quite consensus on this-- whether a single document, or modular. iii) some kind of an informational document about the challenges of wireless is also desirable (no one took action item to produce such a document). _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 9 12:47:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12523; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BuDNq-0008Ta-B0; Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:52:29 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BuDGJ-0007Tj-Jr; Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:44:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BuCxF-00041p-Jq for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:24:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09680 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BuD1a-0007g1-K9 for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:29:28 -0400 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Aug 2004 09:27:51 +0000 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com [171.71.163.14]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i79GOFH5017342 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irp-view9.cisco.com (irp-view9.cisco.com [171.70.65.147]) by mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.5-GR) with ESMTP id AWA76532; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:24:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Abhay Roy To: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060740@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] Suggestion for a Lead X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Folks, It was brought up during OSPF WG meeting that we should have a lead to drive the design team activities. I would like to nominate Tom Henderson for the job. Regards, -Roy- _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 10 10:57:57 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA02451; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BuY9B-0006Cg-R0; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:02:43 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BuXzU-0005px-8A; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:52:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BuXwX-0004x5-9H for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:49:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01945 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BuY15-00061h-1X for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:54:20 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (64.102.124.13) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Aug 2004 10:49:06 -0400 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from mchandra-u10.cisco.com (mchandra-u10.cisco.com [64.102.48.252]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i7AEn2A6019709; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (mchandra@localhost) by mchandra-u10.cisco.com (8.11.2/CISCO.WS.1.2) id i7AEn2D29742; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:49:02 -0400 From: "Madhavi W. Chandra" To: Abhay Roy Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] Suggestion for a Lead Message-ID: <20040810144902.GI29693@cisco.com> References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060740@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 I second the nomination. Tom seems to have done much simulation work...and could guide the team towards focused discussions. -Madhavi On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 09:24:15AM -0700, Abhay Roy wrote: > Folks, > > It was brought up during OSPF WG meeting that we should have a > lead to drive the design team activities. I would like to nominate > Tom Henderson for the job. > > Regards, > -Roy- > > _______________________________________________ > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 10 14:08:44 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18118; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Bub7q-0001t4-7r; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:13:30 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Buaxi-0006KT-FF; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:03:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BuasJ-0004vd-8t for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:57:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17356 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil ([132.250.83.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Buaws-0001fI-Q9 for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:02:12 -0400 Received: from smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.86.3]) by s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.8) with SMTP id i7AHsQYM025854; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SEXTANT.itd.nrl.navy.mil ([132.250.92.22]) by smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (SAVSMTP 3.1.6.45) with SMTP id M2004081013542608712 ; Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:54:26 -0400 Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20040810135133.029245f8@pop.itd.nrl.navy.mil> X-Sender: macker@pop.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:54:43 -0400 To: "Madhavi W. Chandra" , Abhay Roy From: Joe Macker Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] Suggestion for a Lead In-Reply-To: <20040810144902.GI29693@cisco.com> References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060740@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20040810144902.GI29693@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Tom is a good choice. -Joe At 10:49 AM 8/10/2004, Madhavi W. Chandra wrote: >I second the nomination. Tom seems to have done much >simulation work...and could guide the team towards >focused discussions. > >-Madhavi > >On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 09:24:15AM -0700, Abhay Roy wrote: >> Folks, >> >> It was brought up during OSPF WG meeting that we should have a >> lead to drive the design team activities. I would like to nominate >> Tom Henderson for the job. >> >> Regards, >> -Roy- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ospf-wireless-design mailing list >> Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > >_______________________________________________ >Ospf-wireless-design mailing list >Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Wed Aug 11 12:29:12 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16948; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Buw3F-0002XK-53; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:34:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Buvrd-0005zt-SX; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:22:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Buvah-0001F1-8D for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:04:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15779 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.96.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BuvfS-0002AZ-3g for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:09:35 -0400 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id LAA19545 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:04:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id i7BG43c20760 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:04:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6662); Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:02:05 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] Suggestion for a Lead Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:02:04 -0700 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C040607E5@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: [Ospf-wireless-design] Suggestion for a Lead Thread-Index: AcR/B7LyWkj0Cf47QPywgxCcwl8fpwAtEkhQ From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2004 16:02:05.0390 (UTC) FILETIME=[8C13BEE0:01C47FBC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the support. I would be willing to do this if the rest of the group is happy with it. It's still my understanding that Acee and Joe are to work on some more focused problem statement, and to help that effort,=20 we as group members are to express the operational scenarios=20 and technical constraints that we most care about. Tom _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Wed Aug 11 14:51:34 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26706; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BuyH2-0005Eo-IN; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:56:33 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Buy45-0006v8-AT; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:43:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Buxu1-0005A9-5u for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:32:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24815 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.120]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Buxyn-0004jm-UL for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:37:43 -0400 Received: from sdn-ap-004castocp0343.dialsprint.net ([63.187.33.89] helo=earthlink.net) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Buxtx-0005aY-00 for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:32:41 -0700 Message-ID: <411A6647.9000503@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:32:39 -0700 From: Richard User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 (emach0202) X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] Suggestion for a Lead References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C040607E5@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also agree that Tom is a good choice, since he seems to be considering and evaluating alternative solutions in a fair, unbiased manner. I think we should define a set of scenarios that define our goals, so that we agree on a basis for comparing different solutions. These scenarios should vary in number of nodes (up to 250 perhaps), number of neighbors (again up to 250), node speed (from stationary to perhaps 65 mph for cars), and different link rates (perhaps down to 256 kbps if possible). It need not be a *requirement* to perform well in every scenario, but a solution that does would be preferable. (We shouldn't limit our goals too much in advance.) Richard Henderson, Thomas R wrote: >Thank you for the support. I would be willing to do this if >the rest of the group is happy with it. > >It's still my understanding that Acee and Joe are to work on >some more focused problem statement, and to help that effort, >we as group members are to express the operational scenarios >and technical constraints that we most care about. > >Tom > >_______________________________________________ >Ospf-wireless-design mailing list >Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 12 11:58:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10513; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BvI31-0006bX-Dr; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:03:23 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BvHwO-0003H1-Dj; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:56:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BvHrI-0002HA-AS for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:51:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10265 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BvHwH-0006TV-Cm for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:56:25 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (64.102.124.13) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Aug 2004 11:50:44 -0400 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from mchandra-u10.cisco.com (mchandra-u10.cisco.com [64.102.48.252]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i7CFoWCf029529; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (mchandra@localhost) by mchandra-u10.cisco.com (8.11.2/CISCO.WS.1.2) id i7CFoWa00539; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:50:17 -0400 From: "Madhavi W. Chandra" To: Abhay Roy Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] Minutes from first design team meeting Message-ID: <20040812155017.GC520@cisco.com> References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060740@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b8f3559805f7873076212d6f63ee803e Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 88b11fc64c1bfdb4425294ef5374ca07 On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 05:15:42PM -0700, Abhay Roy wrote: > > Selected notes from OSPF design team meeting @IETF, August 4, 2004 > (Tom Henderson and Abhay Roy) > > > Attendees: > > Acee Lindem > Joe Macker > Abhay Roy > Tom Henderson > Thomas Clausen > Padma Pillay-Esnault > > > > (manet as transit network or stub) > > padma: Would like a pointer to wireless models and background > information on this problem domain. Also would like to understand what > is the optimum architecture scenario for this design effort. > > acee: is it possible for the manet cloud to be a transit for two fixed > wireline networks? > > abhay: should be possible for manet to be transit > > joe: would like to see a wireless interface, need to understand first > order performance drivers. existing MANET protocols probably handle > many of existing stub network configuration > > Joe: look at the stuff that reliable multicast transport has worked on. > A mix of streaming reliable and unreliable flows. The NORM work. > > tom: similarly, should we consider the generic flooding protocol under > development in MANET as a potential service to leverage? > > joe: not sure. if it gets developed as something which we can reuse then > it's a possibility. > > acee: should manet be like a stub area or be an interface scope? worry > about containing manet instability. > > abhay: it's more of a deployment question. we should allow the > flexibility of being able to introduce a manet interface in any place in > the network. > > (discussion on unreliable flooding) > > abhay: in high mobility scenario it seems attractive to not have to > worry about acks. like a hybrid approach. tricky to switch between > reliable and unreliable. granularity could perhaps be per lsa. > > tom: maybe just do reliable for now as long as possibility to perhaps add > unreliable later > > [not clear if we will address unreliable flooding in first phase] > > > (hello optimizations) > > acee: if hello overhead is not high, perhaps we should not attempt > to optimize it. focus on biggest overheads (flooding). > > abhay: we are introducing various TLVs in hellos which make the overhead > a bit higher. not sure, if the overhead will remain low. While I agree that Hello optimizations are probably 'second order' when compared to the benefit of optimizing flooding, I don't think we should dismiss it. The more dense the network and low mobility, the more benefit optimized Hellos will yield. And, every bit of savings will help...albeit without introducing unacceptable complexity. I would still like to see us consider/examine Hello optimizations in this design team. Maybe we'll come out with a hybrid approach. -Madhavi > (discussion on scaling limits) > > padma: have seen up to 250 neighbors/node in certain customer networks > > acee: using modern memory and microprocessors, the I/O performance > dwarfs anything that is in the protocol. I/O must be tuned. > > joe: some customers have asked for things on the order of a thousand > nodes, but some expectations are unrealistic > > abhay: they do want 1000 nodes in the network, but not necessarily in > one area. we could work on some clustering like solution. > > (area mobility and multi-area) > > joe: fred's earlier work included how a node could move from one area > to other due to mobility > > abhay: so far we are focussing one a single area. area mobility is > challenging in various respects. for e.g. if you could attach to > multiple areas how to choose? > > [general agreement to keep the immediate solutions to single area] > > (discussion on Cisco implementation status) > > joe: is this going to be a design team? or is Cisco already committed > to a particular approach? > > abhay: cisco is already developing the chandra draft > > thomas: what timeframe do we need to work towards to make sure that > design team outputs are not overcome by events? > > abhay: cisco will implement IETF standards when that becomes ready. > cisco looking for guidance on what areas we are charterd to work on, and > may sit back (for Phase II) on additional features that are of interest > to Cisco but not in charter of design team. > > thomas: would like the reverse-- would like cisco to educate the design > team on what the most useful features might be, rather than sitting back > (because cisco has direct customer input) > > (discussion on layer2/3 APIs) > > joe: has done a lot of work on radio/router APIs. things that can be > done to enhance performance (link sensing). > > abhay: cisco has PPPoE interface along these lines. So it's possible > for radio to pass in information about link characteristics and also > about neighbor going down. > > abhay: not everything needs to be standardized with respect to layer-2 > information, because it doesn't change the protocol. > > tom: some things do, if they affect interoperability (like hello > suppression in lieu of layer-2 neighbor discovery). > > tom: also, some layer-2 issues are relatively straightforward (neighbor > up/down), but other such as time varying link quality being reflected in > the link metrics is trickier and requires hysterisis, etc. > > (joe discussion on his experience with fading channels and extra things > that need to be done in protocols, such as hysterisis, and not relying > too much on reception of layer-3 hellos without low-pass filtering them, > to make them work in practical radio environments) > > (goals of group) > > abhay: need a contained charter to focus on what we work on > > joe: how to document results and issues of this design team? > > padma: need to write some of this guidance down (lessons learned about > wireless) > > tom: maybe OSPF MANET problem statement (Baker et al) is a good > starting point > > joe: that would need more work > > thomas?: how long will group run for? > > abhay: can we do something before next ietf? or will it take longer? > > joe: depends on what we decide to do and how hard it ends up being. > > acee: we should finish the (new) problem statement before next ietf. > > joe: not necessarily going for the optimal solution in this group-- > would like to start with something "simple" > > tom: what is "simple"? maybe we should agree on modest scenarios > > [general belief that the design team could take upto an year] > > abhay: should the design team produce one final document? > > (meeting outcome) > > i) Agreed to work on a problem statement/scope (small 2-3 pages) as a > first step. Acee and Joe to help craft a tighter problem statement. > Design team members should provide their inputs as to what is important > to have included in this statement. > > In particular, what are the scenarios of most interest to participants > (can't design something to fit every conceivable scenario) > > ii) group will provide some kind of draft specification? not quite > consensus on this-- whether a single document, or modular. > > iii) some kind of an informational document about the challenges of > wireless is also desirable (no one took action item to produce such a > document). > > _______________________________________________ > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 12 19:15:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16479; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BvOs7-0000kO-Uc; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:20:36 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BvOlk-0000hh-H2; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:14:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BvOe7-0007S8-IH for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:06:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15942 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BvOj9-0000Z6-AR for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:11:20 -0400 Received: from sdn-ap-004castocp0060.dialsprint.net ([63.187.32.60] helo=earthlink.net) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BvOcd-0005mQ-00; Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:04:35 -0700 Message-ID: <411BF780.4090507@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:04:32 -0700 From: Richard User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 (emach0202) X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Madhavi W. Chandra" Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] Minutes from first design team meeting References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060740@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20040812155017.GC520@cisco.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0487400942==" Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 --===============0487400942== Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
(hello optimizations)
> 
> acee: if hello overhead is not high, perhaps we should not attempt
> to optimize it. focus on biggest overheads (flooding).
> 
> abhay: we are introducing various TLVs in hellos which make the overhead
> a bit higher. not sure, if the overhead will remain low.

While I agree that Hello optimizations are probably 'second order'
when compared to the benefit of optimizing flooding, I don't think we
should dismiss it.  The more dense the network and low mobility, the
more benefit optimized Hellos will yield.   And, every bit of savings
will help...albeit without introducing unacceptable complexity.  I
would still like to see us consider/examine Hello optimizations in
this design team.  Maybe we'll come out with a hybrid approach.

-Madhavi

I agree with Madhavi that Hello optimization (e.g., incremental
Hellos) can achieve a significant reduction in overhead in dense
networks, and in addition can allow the Hello Interval to be smaller
for faster reaction to topology changes in highly mobile networks.

I also agree with Abhay that the unicast Hello requests (and
the unicast replies to these requests) in Cisco's solution can
generate a lot of overhead in dense, highly mobile networks,
possibly cancelling the benefit of the incremental Hellos.
(I mentioned this last week on the OSPF list.)

To see how much overhead can be reduced by using incremental
Hellos versus full Hellos, I ran some ns-2 simulations yesterday.
I compared the incremental Hello protocol of TBRPF (RFC 3684)
to a modification of this protocol which uses full Hellos
similar to OSPF (each seen neighbor is included in each Hello).
(The TBRPF Hello protocol does not use unicast Hello requests,
but instead reports each neighbor change in 3 consecutive Hellos.)
Both protocols were run over IP over IEEE 802.11 with rate 2 Mbps.

The simulation model used 200 nodes in a 670x670 meter square,
the random waypoint model with a maximum node speed of 20 m/s,
a transmission radius of 250 meters, and a pause time of 0.
The Hello Interval was 1 second (reasonable for high mobility).
The simulation was run for 200 seconds, and produced the
following results (packet size includes IP and MAC headers):

                       Full Hellos       Incremental Hellos (TBRPF)
                       -----------       --------------------------
No. of Hello packes     42139             42132
Avg packet size           420 bytes         117 bytes
Hello overhead            708 kbps          198 kbps

The results show that incremental Hellos reduced the overhead
by about 72%.  It is reasonable to ask what the overhead
would be for LSA dissemination.  Although I didn't generate
LSAs for this experiment with 200 nodes (takes too long),
I did run it for 100 nodes, and the total overhead (for both
Hellos and LSAs) was reduced by about 48% by using
incremental Hellos, from 276.4 kbps to 143.0 kbps.
(TBRPF uses a very efficient mechanism for disseminating
partial topology information, but we shouldn't rule out
using equally efficient mechanisms for OSPF.)

Also, note that this method for incremental Hellos
always performs better than full Hellos, so there
is no need for a hybrid approach.

There might also be an IPR issue. SRI's IPR statement
for TBRPF states that any part of TBRPF that becomes
part of an IETF standard can be used by anyone for
free.  I'm not sure the same is true for Cisco.

Richard

--===============0487400942== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design --===============0487400942==-- From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 17 15:44:39 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11225; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Bx9z0-0002uN-6B; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:50:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Bx9nr-0002Ju-S8; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:39:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Bx9l0-0000qB-FK for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:36:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10725 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Bx9r3-0002kv-Sa for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:42:47 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (64.102.124.12) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2004 15:35:59 -0400 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from mchandra-u10.cisco.com (mchandra-u10.cisco.com [64.102.48.252]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i7HJZu9d025509; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (mchandra@localhost) by mchandra-u10.cisco.com (8.11.2/CISCO.WS.1.2) id i7HJZtL01919; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:35:55 -0400 From: "Madhavi W. Chandra" To: Richard Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] Minutes from first design team meeting Message-ID: <20040817193555.GD1898@cisco.com> References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060740@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20040812155017.GC520@cisco.com> <411BF780.4090507@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <411BF780.4090507@earthlink.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Since we seem to be having the Hello discussion on another thread, I'll just comment on the IPR issue: Our patents are defensive, and if there are any questions about our IPR statement or licensing, they can be directed to Robert Barr - Cisco's patent attorney (rbarr@cisco.com). -Madhavi On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 04:04:32PM -0700, Richard wrote: _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design