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Passwords for ospf-wireless-design-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org uxefev https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/ospf-wireless-design/ospf-wireless-design-archive%40ietf.org From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 1 14:07:41 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18389; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1COhln-0008T5-Q1; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:23:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1COh89-0007N4-7f; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 13:42:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1COgj8-0005cX-BN for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 13:16:22 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13576 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:16:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1COgy4-000716-A2 for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 13:31:49 -0500 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Nov 2004 10:28:09 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com [171.71.163.14]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iA1IFiom006686; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from irp-view9.cisco.com (irp-view9.cisco.com [171.70.65.147]) by mira-sjc5-b.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.5-GR) with ESMTP id AYO75847; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:18:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:15:45 -0800 (PST) From: Abhay Roy To: "Henderson, Thomas R" Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss In-Reply-To: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C040608F8@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C040608F8@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: Joe Macker , ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Tuesday PM is fine for me.. Regards, -Roy- On 10/29/04-0700 at 1:37pm, Henderson, Thomas R writes: > Does anyone have a conflict meeting on Tuesday PM? I have > conflicts on Tuesday AM. > > The routing related agenda on Tuesday PM seems to be: > IP over Cable Data Network WG > Routing Protocol Security Requirements WG > (OPS) Global Routing Operations WG > Protocol Independent Multicast WG > > For those who will be at the IETF meeting, please chime in if > you would like to schedule around any of the above. > > Tom > > > _______________________________________________ > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 1 20:13:11 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA28846; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1COnTX-0002a2-LO; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:28:44 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1COmp3-0005x6-8X; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:46:53 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1COmi0-0001Zy-N3 for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:39:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26763 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil ([132.250.83.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1COmwy-0001yQ-5t for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:55:07 -0500 Received: from smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.86.3]) by s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.8) with SMTP id iA20cLTY011777; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:39:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([132.250.92.22]) by smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (SMSSMTP 4.0.4.64) with SMTP id M2004110109164103229 ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:41 -0500 Message-ID: <41864581.5020908@nrl.navy.mil> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:17:37 -0500 From: Joe Macker User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C040608D5@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com><0b1b01c4b860$4d968da0$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> <417D180D.1040605@nrl.navy.mil> <006301c4bdb0$30defb70$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> In-Reply-To: <006301c4bdb0$30defb70$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Acee Lindem wrote: > Hi Joe, > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Macker" > > To: > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss > > >> Are we planning to meet separately as a design team in DC as in San >> Diego? >> I thought that was a very productive forum last time.. > > > For me it would have to be Tuesday. I'm in a transitionary period and am > only > going to be at the IETF Monday and Tuesday. > Hi Acee/others: o.k., let me know if something is planned. I should be open this -Joe _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 2 12:33:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15578; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP2m8-0007xU-F5; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:48:56 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP2Jk-0006mi-S0; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:19:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CP1qF-0007ll-Il for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:49:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09892 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil ([132.250.83.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CP25M-0006ax-Iq for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:04:46 -0500 Received: from smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.86.3]) by s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.8) with SMTP id iA2GmWTQ008933; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [132.250.92.22] ([132.250.92.22]) by smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (SMSSMTP 4.0.4.64) with SMTP id M2004110211483118841 ; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:48:31 -0500 Message-ID: <4187BA9B.9090902@nrl.navy.mil> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:49:31 -0500 From: Joe Macker User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Henderson, Thomas R" Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C040608F8@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C040608F8@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henderson, Thomas R wrote: > Does anyone have a conflict meeting on Tuesday PM? I have > conflicts on Tuesday AM. > > The routing related agenda on Tuesday PM seems to be: > IP over Cable Data Network WG > Routing Protocol Security Requirements WG > (OPS) Global Routing Operations WG > Protocol Independent Multicast WG I am c-authoring a document in RMT that is finishing up so I'd like to attend. (1415 slot) 1545 slot is my preferred timeslot for Tuesday PM. RPSEC would be something I may wish to attend, but that slot 1300 would be my second choice. > > For those who will be at the IETF meeting, please chime in if > you would like to schedule around any of the above. > > Tom > > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 16:13:00 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19903; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPSga-0007gQ-SY; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:28:57 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPSML-0001sn-NF; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:08:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPSLm-0001WB-N4 for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:07:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19651 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.64.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPSbA-0007a2-U0 for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:23:21 -0500 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com ([192.42.227.216]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id NAA09785 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iA3L6op03700 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:06:47 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:06:47 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F741CE@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: IETF meeting Thread-Index: AcTA+9qZjAjbGW38SKa9e/cgyz31mwA7L5uQ From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2004 21:06:47.0434 (UTC) FILETIME=[07B946A0:01C4C1E9] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, if you will be at IETF, please block off Tuesday at 15:45. I will look for a place where we can meet. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:50 AM > To: Henderson, Thomas R > Cc: Acee Lindem; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss >=20 >=20 > 1545 slot is my preferred timeslot for Tuesday PM.=20 > RPSEC would be something I may wish to attend, but that slot=20 > 1300 would be my second choice. >=20 _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 17:06:32 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24690; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPTWO-0000mm-Ed; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:22:29 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPT45-0007SF-Mm; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:53:13 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPSqu-00050F-MF for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:39:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22077 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPT6J-0008On-4c for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:55:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88737C501A7; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12067-08; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from aceeinspiron (unknown [172.31.253.33]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3779EC501A2; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:39:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009001c4c1ed$9832ea20$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> From: "Acee Lindem" To: "Henderson, Thomas R" , References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F741CE@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:39:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was there conflict earliar? I know someone said they wanted to go to rpsec but thatis over at 1400. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:06 PM Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting OK, if you will be at IETF, please block off Tuesday at 15:45. I will look for a place where we can meet. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:50 AM > To: Henderson, Thomas R > Cc: Acee Lindem; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss > > > 1545 slot is my preferred timeslot for Tuesday PM. > RPSEC would be something I may wish to attend, but that slot > 1300 would be my second choice. > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 17:06:42 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA24728; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPTWZ-0000n6-4m; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:22:40 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPT4E-0007bF-IQ; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:53:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPSuW-0005JR-4n for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:43:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22444 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.64.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPT9t-0008UJ-LU for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:59:15 -0500 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id NAA26561; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iA3LgkN14040; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:42:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:42:45 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:42:44 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F741DC@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting Thread-Index: AcTB7Z1ZyKDV1WA2SoeHy4ki4nNMtAAAGecg From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: "Acee Lindem" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2004 21:42:45.0465 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E02AC90:01C4C1EE] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe said he wanted to go to RMT at 1415.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 1:39 PM > To: Henderson, Thomas R; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting >=20 > Was there conflict earliar? I know someone said they wanted=20 > to go to rpsec but thatis over at 1400.=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henderson, Thomas R" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:06 PM > Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting >=20 >=20 > OK, if you will be at IETF, please block off Tuesday at 15:45. I will > look for a place where we can meet. >=20 > Tom >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil]=20 > > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:50 AM > > To: Henderson, Thomas R > > Cc: Acee Lindem; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review=20 > and discuss > >=20 > >=20 > > 1545 slot is my preferred timeslot for Tuesday PM.=20 > > RPSEC would be something I may wish to attend, but that slot=20 > > 1300 would be my second choice. > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design >=20 _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 3 17:23:13 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA26252; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPTmZ-0001DE-2V; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:39:11 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPTU3-0005eI-U5; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:20:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPTNp-00047J-DY for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:13:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25265 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPTdE-0000xK-B3 for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:29:32 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1881380BDA0; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16756-03; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from aceeinspiron (unknown [172.31.253.33]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 53BD480BD9E; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:13:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00a101c4c1f2$59544d80$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> From: "Acee Lindem" To: "Henderson, Thomas R" , References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F741DC@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:13:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok - now I remember. I may have opt out as I have a 7:30 PM flight and I learned that the IAD is an hour from the hotel (and there is rush hour to contend with). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: "Acee Lindem" ; Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:42 PM Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting Joe said he wanted to go to RMT at 1415. > -----Original Message----- > From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 1:39 PM > To: Henderson, Thomas R; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting > > Was there conflict earliar? I know someone said they wanted > to go to rpsec but thatis over at 1400. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henderson, Thomas R" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:06 PM > Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting > > > OK, if you will be at IETF, please block off Tuesday at 15:45. I will > look for a place where we can meet. > > Tom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:50 AM > > To: Henderson, Thomas R > > Cc: Acee Lindem; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review > and discuss > > > > > > 1545 slot is my preferred timeslot for Tuesday PM. > > RPSEC would be something I may wish to attend, but that slot > > 1300 would be my second choice. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 11:42:46 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08227; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPkwm-0000KV-Gy; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:58:53 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPkad-0000e0-Aj; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:35:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPkPs-0002Wb-B3 for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:24:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06546 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil ([132.250.83.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPkfO-0008L2-1A for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:40:57 -0500 Received: from smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.86.3]) by s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.8) with SMTP id iA4GOETQ007987; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [132.250.92.22] ([132.250.92.22]) by smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (SMSSMTP 4.0.4.64) with SMTP id M2004110411241306887 ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:24:13 -0500 Message-ID: <418A57EF.5000800@nrl.navy.mil> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:25:19 -0500 From: Joe Macker User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F741DC@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> <00a101c4c1f2$59544d80$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> In-Reply-To: <00a101c4c1f2$59544d80$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Acee Lindem wrote: > Ok - now I remember. I may have opt out as I have a 7:30 PM flight > and I learned that the IAD is an hour from the hotel (and there > is rush hour to contend with). I would be happy to meet at 1300 (or anytime earlier), if that means Acee can attend. Acee do you need to attend RPSEC? -Joe > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henderson, Thomas R" > > To: "Acee Lindem" ; > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:42 PM > Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting > > > Joe said he wanted to go to RMT at 1415. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com] Sent: Wednesday, November >> 03, 2004 1:39 PM >> To: Henderson, Thomas R; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting >> >> Was there conflict earliar? I know someone said they wanted to go to >> rpsec but thatis over at 1400. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Henderson, Thomas R" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:06 PM >> Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting >> >> >> OK, if you will be at IETF, please block off Tuesday at 15:45. I will >> look for a place where we can meet. >> >> Tom >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil] > Sent: >> Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:50 AM >> > To: Henderson, Thomas R >> > Cc: Acee Lindem; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss >> > > > 1545 slot is my preferred timeslot for Tuesday PM. > RPSEC would >> be something I may wish to attend, but that slot > 1300 would be my >> second choice. >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ospf-wireless-design mailing list >> Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design >> > > _______________________________________________ > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 12:35:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14493; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPlle-00020z-4X; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:51:26 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPlPL-0004qE-4l; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:28:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPl4T-0006dU-HK for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:06:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11466 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPlK2-00016X-5f for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:22:54 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (64.102.124.12) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Nov 2004 12:30:08 -0500 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from mchandra-u10.cisco.com (mchandra-u10.cisco.com [64.102.48.252]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iA4H6FfB010777; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:06:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (mchandra@localhost) by mchandra-u10.cisco.com (8.11.2/CISCO.WS.1.2) id iA4H6Eb23918; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:06:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:06:14 -0500 From: "Madhavi W. Chandra" To: "Henderson, Thomas R" Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss Message-ID: <20041104170614.GG23620@cisco.com> References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060901@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060901@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36b1f8810cb91289d885dc8ab4fc8172 Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 87a3f533bb300b99e2a18357f3c1563d Hi All, Catching up on emails... > > > 3.2.1.2 Self-selected MPRs > > > > > > Regarding whether MPRs are self-selected versus selected by the > > > originators themselves, the tradeoff seems to be some increase in > > > complexity (i.e., processing steps) to self-select them, versus a > > > need to use extra fields in Hello or other messages to notify a > > > neighbor that it has been selected. However, it may require that > > > OSPF Hellos be modified to provide two-hop information > > anyway. For > > > example, consider if each node provided its two-hop neighbor > > > information to all of its one hop neighbors. Rather > > than the node > > > running the MPR selection algorithm and notifying the > > selected one > > > hop neighbor, each neighbor could run the algorithm on the node's > > > behalf, and decide whether it would have been selected > > by the node. > > > But the current OSPF Hello only provides one-hop > > neighbor information > > > for the sending node. > > > > Actually, the OSPF Hello does not even provide one-hop neighbor > > information, since it does not say whether each neighbor is 2-way. > > As in Cisco's protocol and in TBRPF, each node can inform its > > neighbors > > of all of its 2-way neighbors in its self-originated LSA. > > In that way, each node learns about all of its neighbors' neighbors > > (2-hop neighbors). > > It would be unnecessarily bandwidth consuming for each node to > > report all of its 2-hop neighbors (which would result in each node > > knowing its 3-hop neighbors). > > agreed. > > > > > > > > > > > A minimum-ID algorithm described in [9] requires O(m^4) > > computation > > > when run as a self-selecting algorithm rather than O(m^2) or O(m) > > > using the MPR selector approach. However, it has also > > been pointed > > > > A min-ID self-selecting algorithm exists which requires only > > O(n^3) using the Floyd-Warshall algorithm to compute shortest paths > > from each neighbor to each other neighbor, where n is the number > > of neighbors. I don't think this is too large. Another such algorithm > > requires only O(n^2) computations by computing shortest paths > > from each > > neighbor to only the min-ID neighbor. > > agreed. thanks for pointing that out. > > > > > > > > If a node is self-selecting itself as a CDS, it most > > likely does so > > > with an assumption that neighbors are running the identical or > > > similar algorithm (in much the same way that the distributed > > > computation of Dijkstra's algorithm requires that all nodes > > > consistently apply it). In a MANET environment, some > > nodes may not > > > be as willing to select themselves as CDS, due to issues such as > > > energy reserve. Richard Ogier suggested in [5] that the Router > > > Priority field may be used to indicate "willingness" to > > relay traffic > > > and become a CDS node, but there is no specific > > description of how > > > this might work. Likewise, it is not clear how sensitive a CDS > > > self-selection algorithm would be to neighbors using consistent > > > algorithms, and hence, how easy it would be to evolve > > the heuristics > > > in an incremental deployment scenario. > > > > OSPF requires all nodes to run the same shortest-path algorithm, > > so requiring all nodes to run the same CDS algorithm > > is consistent with OSPF's philosophy. > > I agree that CDS is consistent with OSPF-- the question is whether the > possibility for evolving the heuristics in an incremental fashion is > worth anything. > > > > > > Although there are several heuristics for CDS > > construction that have > > > been proposed, one interesting one presented by INRIA > > (in [9]) can be > > > used to transform the set of MPRs into a CDS, if the > > nodes have some > > > agreed-upon knowledge of the total-order of the network (such as > > > increasing router ID). Ogier has done some simulation > > evaluation of > > > this algorithm in [10] and shown simulation results that > > it performs > > > worse than an algorithm based on two-hop neighbor information. > > > > I also want to point out that MPR selection involves *more* than > > 2-hop neighbor information, since each node computes its MPRs > > based on 2-hop neighbor information and then informs its > > neighbors of its MPR selection (so the selection of an MPR > > may depend on information about nodes that are 3 hops from > > the MPR itself). The CDS algorithms that I am considering > > depend only on 2-hop neighbor information. > > Also, having to first compute MPRs and then inform neighbors of the > > selection results in slower response to topology changes. > > Yes, but the node doing the selection relies on two hop info, > right? That is the main point, I think. But then there is the > extra step of notifying. I think you are pointing out that the > CDS algorithm relies on two hop info, but there is no "next step" > of notifying a node as in MPRs. I'll throw out there... When we started our design of overlapping relays, we started with a self-elected set that did not 'notify' its peers of its self-election. Our thinking at the time was that a node is in the best position to know who it can reach at the time of flooding....and thus, whether it should further a flood. It was a local decision and not conveyed to other nodes. However, we realized that the performance of such undeterministic behavior is very dependent on the network behaving 'ideally'. Convergence can be delayed, excessive transmissons can result, and more importantly, flooding can be compromised. Going down that road led us to our current overlapping relays mechanism...in which nodes select their overlapping relays, and convey such elections to the peers. Since the DT is meeting in IETF, maybe this can be discussed further then. -Madhavi _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 13:09:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17337; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPmIW-0002r1-3j; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:25:24 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPm14-0004Gu-1n; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:07:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPltX-00025L-OQ for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:59:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16419 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPm97-0002bW-1G for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:15:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5BA4E426D; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21959-05; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from aceeinspiron (unknown [172.31.253.66]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AB64B4E426C; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:59:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <016201c4c298$01e0e530$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> From: "Acee Lindem" To: "Joe Macker" References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F741DC@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> <00a101c4c1f2$59544d80$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> <418A57EF.5000800@nrl.navy.mil> Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:59:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Macker" To: "Acee Lindem" Cc: "Henderson, Thomas R" ; Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting > Acee Lindem wrote: >> Ok - now I remember. I may have opt out as I have a 7:30 PM flight >> and I learned that the IAD is an hour from the hotel (and there >> is rush hour to contend with). > > I would be happy to meet at 1300 (or anytime earlier), if that means Acee can attend. > Acee do you need to attend RPSEC? Hi Joe, I think I could safely miss it this IETF. 1300 would be better for me. Thanks, Acee > > -Joe > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henderson, Thomas R" >> >> To: "Acee Lindem" ; >> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:42 PM >> Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting >> >> >> Joe said he wanted to go to RMT at 1415. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com] Sent: Wednesday, November >>> 03, 2004 1:39 PM >>> To: Henderson, Thomas R; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting >>> >>> Was there conflict earliar? I know someone said they wanted to go to >>> rpsec but thatis over at 1400. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Henderson, Thomas R" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:06 PM >>> Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting >>> >>> >>> OK, if you will be at IETF, please block off Tuesday at 15:45. I will >>> look for a place where we can meet. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil] > Sent: >>> Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:50 AM >>> > To: Henderson, Thomas R >>> > Cc: Acee Lindem; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org >>> > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss >>> > > > 1545 slot is my preferred timeslot for Tuesday PM. > RPSEC would >>> be something I may wish to attend, but that slot > 1300 would be my >>> second choice. >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ospf-wireless-design mailing list >>> Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ospf-wireless-design mailing list >> Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design >> >> > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 13:11:52 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17611; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPmL2-0002wJ-4c; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:28:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPm1o-0004Vn-Ca; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:08:08 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPlus-0002cv-Mh for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:00:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16495 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from postfix4-2.free.fr ([213.228.0.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPmAQ-0002cs-Vq for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:17:04 -0500 Received: from imp4-q.free.fr (imp4-q.free.fr [212.27.42.4]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79EB4235938; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:00:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp4-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 16D18E514; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:00:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from m102.net81-67-132.noos.fr (m102.net81-67-132.noos.fr [81.67.132.102]) by imp4-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:00:54 +0100 Message-ID: <1099591254.418a6e560a30e@imp4-q.free.fr> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:00:54 +0100 From: Thomas Heide Clausen To: Joe Macker Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F741DC@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> <00a101c4c1f2$59544d80$0202a8c0@aceeinspiron> <418A57EF.5000800@nrl.navy.mil> In-Reply-To: <418A57EF.5000800@nrl.navy.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 81.67.132.102 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 1300 would work for me, but earlier than that would be difficult since= I have a lunch-meeting on that day. I might reschedule, if needed, but if 1300 works.... --thomas Quoting Joe Macker : > Acee Lindem wrote: > > Ok - now I remember. I may have opt out as I have a 7:30 PM flight > > and I learned that the IAD is an hour from the hotel (and there > > is rush hour to contend with). > > I would be happy to meet at 1300 (or anytime earlier), if that means Ac= ee can > attend. > Acee do you need to attend RPSEC? > > -Joe > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henderson, Thomas R" > > > > To: "Acee Lindem" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:42 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting > > > > > > Joe said he wanted to go to RMT at 1415. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com] Sent: Wednesday, Novembe= r > >> 03, 2004 1:39 PM > >> To: Henderson, Thomas R; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting > >> > >> Was there conflict earliar? I know someone said they wanted to go to > >> rpsec but thatis over at 1400. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Henderson, Thomas R" > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:06 PM > >> Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting > >> > >> > >> OK, if you will be at IETF, please block off Tuesday at 15:45. I wi= ll > >> look for a place where we can meet. > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil] > Sent: > >> Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:50 AM > >> > To: Henderson, Thomas R > >> > Cc: Acee Lindem; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > >> > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and dis= cuss > >> > > > 1545 slot is my preferred timeslot for Tuesday PM. > RPSEC wou= ld > >> be something I may wish to attend, but that slot > 1300 would be my > >> second choice. > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > >> Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 14:11:16 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23068; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPnGU-0004HA-C3; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:27:23 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPmw2-00082T-49; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:06:14 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPml0-0006B4-TM for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:54:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21487 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.64.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPn0a-0003sm-HB for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:10:57 -0500 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com ([129.172.13.4]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id KAA09210 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iA4IsIZ17289 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:54:11 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:54:11 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04522860@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: [Ospf-wireless-design] IETF meeting Thread-Index: AcTCmdzO4UW/IuFYTdiAIZOLZYh5bgABbulg From: "Henderson, Thomas R" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 18:54:11.0569 (UTC) FILETIME=[AC125E10:01C4C29F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, then, it seems like everyone can meet on 1300 on Tuesday. _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 14:42:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26211; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPnkP-0004zx-Gm; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:58:18 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPnQE-00052I-8S; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:37:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPnJW-0003rx-Ky for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:30:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24976 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:30:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil ([132.250.83.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPnZ5-0004kq-RA for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:46:37 -0500 Received: from smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.86.3]) by s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.8) with SMTP id iA4JTqTQ016794; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:29:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [132.250.92.22] ([132.250.92.22]) by smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (SMSSMTP 4.0.4.64) with SMTP id M2004110414295008394 ; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:29:50 -0500 Message-ID: <418A8371.90600@nrl.navy.mil> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:30:57 -0500 From: Joe Macker User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Madhavi W. Chandra" Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060901@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20041104170614.GG23620@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20041104170614.GG23620@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Madhavi W. Chandra wrote: >>> >>>OSPF requires all nodes to run the same shortest-path algorithm, >>>so requiring all nodes to run the same CDS algorithm >>>is consistent with OSPF's philosophy. Are you assuming by the above, the link state is limited to or only initiated by the relay set nodes? Unless I am misinterpreting the context, the CDS selection specifics (whether source specific or not) and the routing algorithm can be orthogonal. It is true that sometimes they are tied together as in "partial link state variant of OLSR" in an attempt to reduce control overhead. In other methods, already prototyped and tested, LS updates are produced by all nodes and the CDS-based forwarding is used for efficient flooding only. In this case, the routing can route around the CDS as needed. We could argue about the scalability vs. robustness tradeoffs but both approaches are possible. >> >>I agree that CDS is consistent with OSPF-- the question is whether the >>possibility for evolving the heuristics in an incremental fashion is >>worth anything. _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 4 18:56:48 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24947; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPrit-0003EI-UV; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 19:13:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPrIj-0001m0-4T; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:45:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CPrEW-0000YD-Lz for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:41:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA23685 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.96.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CPrU9-0002rw-0l for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:57:45 -0500 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id RAA10653; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:41:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iA4Nf1N04252; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:41:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:40:59 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:40:58 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C0406090D@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss Thread-Index: AcTCphWF2h06TBzeR8+bKPhkCtsRtwAIRyuw From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: "Joe Macker" , "Madhavi W. Chandra" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 23:40:59.0766 (UTC) FILETIME=[BCF4D960:01C4C2C7] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil]=20 > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:31 AM > To: Madhavi W. Chandra > Cc: Henderson, Thomas R; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss >=20 >=20 > Madhavi W. Chandra wrote: > >>> > >>>OSPF requires all nodes to run the same shortest-path algorithm, > >>>so requiring all nodes to run the same CDS algorithm > >>>is consistent with OSPF's philosophy. > =20 > Are you assuming by the above, the link state is limited to=20 > or only initiated by the relay set nodes? >=20 > Unless I am misinterpreting the context, the CDS selection=20 > specifics (whether source specific or not) and the routing=20 > algorithm can be orthogonal. I think that this might be out of context. The original comment referred to was from Richard, in reply to an observation that MPRs have the possible virtue that they allow different nodes to run different algorithms. I took Richard's response to mean that if we decided on an algorithm that was required to be implemented uniformly in the network, such an approach would nevertheless be consistent with other aspects of OSPF. Tom _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 5 12:52:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02795; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:52:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQ8WH-0000Ey-Ct; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:09:08 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQ8CY-0005bP-BS; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:48:42 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CQ81N-0002Cy-4O for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:37:09 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01154 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:37:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil ([132.250.83.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CQ8HA-0008EF-6A for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:53:28 -0500 Received: from smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.86.3]) by s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.8) with SMTP id iA5HaITW025112; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [132.250.92.22] ([132.250.92.22]) by smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (SMSSMTP 4.0.4.64) with SMTP id M2004110512362615028 ; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:36:26 -0500 Message-ID: <418BBA5F.10807@nrl.navy.mil> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:37:35 -0500 From: Joe Macker User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Henderson, Thomas R" Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C0406090D@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C0406090D@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henderson, Thomas R wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Joe Macker [mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil] >>Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:31 AM >>To: Madhavi W. Chandra >>Cc: Henderson, Thomas R; ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org >>Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] new material to review and discuss >> >> >>Madhavi W. Chandra wrote: >> >>>>>OSPF requires all nodes to run the same shortest-path algorithm, >>>>>so requiring all nodes to run the same CDS algorithm >>>>>is consistent with OSPF's philosophy. >> >> >>Are you assuming by the above, the link state is limited to >>or only initiated by the relay set nodes? >> >>Unless I am misinterpreting the context, the CDS selection >>specifics (whether source specific or not) and the routing >>algorithm can be orthogonal. > > > I think that this might be out of context. The original comment > referred to was from Richard, in reply to an observation Right..I intended the question for Richard.. sorry Madhavi. > that MPRs have the possible virtue that they allow different > nodes to run different algorithms. I took Richard's response > to mean that if we decided on an algorithm that was required > to be implemented uniformly in the network, such an approach > would nevertheless be consistent with other aspects of OSPF. > O.k....I was reading into this as a SD-CDS argument relating to shortest path consistency. > Tom > > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 8 17:06:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07896; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRHfA-0007Sf-5s; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:07:01 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRHQj-0000qa-4r; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:52:05 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CRHFb-0005UJ-BE for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:40:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05462 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:40:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.64.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CRHGC-0006lt-AR for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:41:13 -0500 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id NAA21329; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iA8LcYN25767; Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:38:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:38:30 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:38:30 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F747D9@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: Design team meeting tomorrow Thread-Index: AcSiA1xMaZ0VAQMJRLaKT0ToB40+jwj1voOQ From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Nov 2004 21:38:30.0705 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A3A2210:01C4C5DB] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] Design team meeting tomorrow X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's meet tomorrow at the registration desk at 1PM and we will find a room to meet. If you happen to be late, we'll put a note on the board where we went. Tom _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 12 11:51:47 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA19661; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:51:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CSefl-0004cd-BP; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:53:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CSeY7-0003Rc-Cf; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:45:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CSeXT-00030y-3Q for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:44:44 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18866 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:44:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.64.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CSeYr-0004PO-Qc for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:46:10 -0500 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com ([192.42.227.216]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id IAA05230; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iACGgkp08091; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:42:41 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:42:40 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F74C88@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: notes from our recent IETF meeting Thread-Index: AcTCphWF2h06TBzeR8+bKPhkCtsRtwGL+QCw From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Nov 2004 16:42:41.0623 (UTC) FILETIME=[A09A2670:01C4C8D6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68ba2b07ef271dba6ee42a93832cfa4c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppe@cisco.com, Emmanuel Baccelli , delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] notes from our recent IETF meeting X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36b1f8810cb91289d885dc8ab4fc8172 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Ad-hoc meeting of the OSPF MANET Design Team Tuesday Nov 9, 2004 minutes by Tom Henderson Attendees: Abhay Roy Delia Kecskemeti Emmanuel Bacceli (filling in for Thomas Clausen) Joe Macker Acee Lindem Rohit Dube Tom Henderson Acee expressed that he used to favor a monolithic design team document but that he is starting to favor the idea of a base "MANET interface" draft that contains the core (flooding) behavior, and possible extensions in separate documents. There was no opposition expressed to that approach. Joe mentioned the need to use better terminology. "Wireless" has problems because people already run OSPF over wireless links and don't understand the need. "Mesh" was suggested but it was felt that this term typically describes static nodes, although "mobile mesh" might be better and was an original term for MANET. "MANET" seems closest to what we are defining, although the applicability of what we are doing does extend beyond ad hoc=20 networks. We decided to use MANET and define the scope and=20 applicability of the term in this work effort. To that end,=20 it was suggested to agree on some standard terminology. Another point on terminology-- Joe clarified at the meeting that the term "source-dependent" was not referring to the original LSA source but instead the previous transmission-- if we don't take steps to make that clear, it might confuse people. Rohit suggested that we might consider some kind of requirements and terminology document. Tom suggested that maybe we could start with these as initial portions of the basic document, and move them to a separate document if it gets too unwieldy. Tom expressed his near term plan to try to resolve the basic flooding design before the March IETF. In particular, the two most promising variants under consideration are an MPR-based approach (based on Cisco's draft) and a SI-CDS approach (based on Tao Lin's draft). Boeing plans to distribute, within the design team, a discrete-event network simulator=20 for the purpose of doing some quantitative evaluation of proposals. More information on this topic will be distributed to the design team list. Tom also said that he would work with a goal of having=20 a draft to send to the WG for the March IETF meeting. The draft should constitute the base "MANET interface" described above. Extensions beyond the base document scope (flooding optimizations) could be considered as a second priority.=20 Joe and Acee asked which algorithms are considered and why? Tom replied that Boeing was implementing two specific algorihms that met the requirements of a distributed algorithm operating with local information: use of MPRs with acknowledgments (an example of which is Cisco's=20 proposed Overlapping Relays) and source-independent CDS (an example of which is the algorithm described in=20 Tao Lin's papers from Virginia Tech). In the absence of other algorithms suggested, we will proceed with evaluating=20 both of those specific algorithms. Are there better ones to consider? =20 There were two comments on source-independent and source- dependent general approaches: i) Joe mentioned that source-independent approaches might have an implementation virtue that they don't require looking at previous hop info, which may or may not be a difficult piece of information to obtain at the routing layer depending on the implementation. ii) It was previously expressed, by Richard Ogier and then Tom in his recent design team draft, that SI-CDS might have a virtue in the OSPF environment that a solution that elected a few "special nodes" might be more in line with OSPF's design regarding database synchronization issues (i.e., like the designated router approach). Emmanuel (echoing a point made by Joe on the list) mentioned=20 that we do not necessarily have to use the same special relay=20 nodes used for flooding to perform other tasks like database=20 synchronization. The flooding could be independent or=20 decoupled from these other nodes used for other functions. Acee-- we might be able to have two levels of adjacency (adjacency for database synchronization, and perhaps others such as ability to use a "link" between them). We do things like this for=20 Graceful Restart already. The danger here is that we can introduce a new level of transients. Joe: We've explored some of these different notions of adjacency, although we found that they tend to help more in unreliable flooding. Acee: There are three things to decide: i) topology information to flood (whether full or partial) ii) what router establishes what adjacencies with others iii) flooding (don't have to flood everyone's LSA) Abhay: It may be possible to reduce the number of adjacencies formed-- we've done some experiments on this topic. Acee: A question-- does everyone need to be a router? Joe: No, only some nodes need to agree to forward packets. Some nodes could refuse. Some nodes could agree to forward only as a last resort. We have protocol mechanisms for this in the MANET protocols. Tom indicated that he and Acee had agreed to two more members for=20 the design team that had indicated experience in this problem space and a desire to participate. The first, Delia Kecskemeti (WindRiver) is implementing OSPFv3. The second, David Green=20 (SRI) has experience in conducting larger-scale MANET experiments. =20 Views were expressed that we should not expand the design team=20 too much more. Joe and Abhay suggested that we might also include=20 the author of the SI-CDS proposal (Tao Lin) on discussions=20 relating to his algorithm-- he doesn't necessarily need to be on the design team. Acee said that he would close down the lurkers=20 that had accidentally been able to subscribe to the design=20 team list. Note that Padma Pillay-Esnault is now at Cisco and reachable at ppe@cisco.com. (meeting adjourned) _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 12 16:53:54 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04206; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:44:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CSj6r-0000DE-8X; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:37:37 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CSirU-0007o6-65; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:21:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CSel7-0005dC-TS for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:58:50 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA20132 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.32.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CSemV-0004kx-7I for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:00:17 -0500 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id IAA10480; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iACGq9N11814; Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:52:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:52:06 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C4C8D7.F151DFE4" Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:52:06 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F74C8E@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes Thread-Topic: notes from our recent IETF meeting Thread-Index: AcTCphWF2h06TBzeR8+bKPhkCtsRtwGL+QCwAABkWTA= From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Nov 2004 16:52:06.0970 (UTC) FILETIME=[F19341A0:01C4C8D7] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0f44ec47f6ebd2aaf0f97ba9529b3ca5 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:21:38 -0500 Cc: ppe@cisco.com, delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com Subject: [Ospf-wireless-design] RE: notes from our recent IETF meeting X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8f671485bda3f2f1be548f998883cfbd This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4C8D7.F151DFE4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I mentioned, we are working on a combined simulator/implementation that the design team will be free to use to evaluate the proposed mechanisms. =20 It may also be helpful if we share some thoughts on how to parameterize, conduct, and analyze any such simulations. To that end, I've attached a first cut at a document that discusses these issues. Comments welcome. 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------_=_NextPart_001_01C4C8D7.F151DFE4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4C8D7.F151DFE4-- From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 19:08:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA07181; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUwMs-0003Us-7l; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:11:14 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUwG3-0007Et-V5; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:04:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUw40-0004Cn-6Z for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:51:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05673 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop-a065d05.pas.sa.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.249]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUw6i-00033e-6v for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:54:32 -0500 Received: from dialup-4.243.128.35.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net ([4.243.128.35] helo=earthlink.net) by pop-a065d05.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CUw3s-0001q0-00; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:51:37 -0800 Message-ID: <419D3581.8060209@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:51:29 -0800 From: Richard Ogier User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 (emach0202) X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Henderson, Thomas R" Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] notes from our recent IETF meeting References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F74C88@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bb031f3a6fb29f760794ac9bf1997ae Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Emmanuel Baccelli , ppe@cisco.com, ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org, delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8a85b14f27c9dcbe0719e27d46abc1f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was not able to attend the IETF meeting this time, but please see my comments below. Henderson, Thomas R wrote: > > Ad-hoc meeting of the OSPF MANET Design Team > > Tuesday Nov 9, 2004 > > minutes by Tom Henderson > > Attendees: > Abhay Roy > Delia Kecskemeti > Emmanuel Bacceli (filling in for Thomas Clausen) > Joe Macker > Acee Lindem > Rohit Dube > Tom Henderson > > Acee expressed that he used to favor a monolithic design team > document but that he is starting to favor the idea of a base > "MANET interface" draft that contains the core (flooding) > behavior, and possible extensions in separate documents. There > was no opposition expressed to that approach. > > Joe mentioned the need to use better terminology. "Wireless" > has problems because people already run OSPF over wireless links > and don't understand the need. "Mesh" was suggested but it > was felt that this term typically describes static nodes, although > "mobile mesh" might be better and was an original term for > MANET. "MANET" seems closest to what we are defining, although > the applicability of what we are doing does extend beyond ad hoc > networks. We decided to use MANET and define the scope and > applicability of the term in this work effort. To that end, it was > suggested to agree on some standard terminology. > > Another point on terminology-- Joe clarified at the meeting > that the term "source-dependent" was not referring to the > original LSA source but instead the previous transmission-- > if we don't take steps to make that clear, it might confuse > people. > Good point. When talking about a local decision, maybe "previous-hop-dependent" is a better term. But if a previous-hop-dependent flooding protocol is used, then the resulting set of nodes that transmit a given flooded packet (which is a CDS) is also source-dependent (i.e., depends on the originator). > > > Rohit suggested that we might consider some kind of requirements > and terminology document. Tom suggested that maybe we could > start with these as initial portions of the basic document, > and move them to a separate document if it gets too unwieldy. > > Tom expressed his near term plan to try to resolve the basic > flooding design before the March IETF. In particular, the two > most promising variants under consideration are an MPR-based > approach (based on Cisco's draft) and a SI-CDS approach > (based on Tao Lin's draft). Boeing plans to distribute, > within the design team, a discrete-event network simulator for the > purpose of doing some quantitative evaluation of > proposals. More information on this topic will be distributed > to the design team list. > Perhaps a better reference for relevant CDS algorithms is the following, which also describes a few (not necessarily new) CDS algorithms that do not require computing MPRs: C. Adjih, P. Jacquet, and L. Viennot. "Computing connected dominated sets with multipoint relays", INRIA research report No. 4597, October 2002. I assume you are talking about Tao Lin's paper, reference [9] of http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-spagnolo-manet-ospf-design-00.txt It is not clear from the description in the paper whether the CDS is source-independent (in the description, the choice seems to depend on the "sender node"). If it is indeed source-indepenent, then it appears to be the same as one of the CDS algorithms in the INRIA report, except that maximizing node degree is used as an additional objective (which I found not to work well, since it favors nodes that are close to the center of a given cluster, and also results in a less stable CDS). A similar CDS algorithm can be found in the following paper: J. Wu and H. Li. "A Dominating-Set-Based Routing Scheme in Ad Hoc Wireless Networks", Telecommunication Systems, Vol. 18, pp. 31-36, 2001. I plan to describe and present simulation results for a few CDS algorithms based on 2-hop neighbor information, including two from the above INRIA report and some improved variations. Another issue is whether existing CDS nodes should remain in the CDS whenever possible (to maximize stability), just as a DR in OSPF remains a DR whenever possible. This is especially important if adjacencies are formed only between CDS nodes and their neighbors (so that a new CDS node must form adjacencies with all of its neighbors). > > Tom also said that he would work with a goal of having a draft to send > to the WG for the March IETF meeting. The > draft should constitute the base "MANET interface" described > above. Extensions beyond the base document scope (flooding > optimizations) could be considered as a second priority. > Joe and Acee asked which algorithms are considered and why? > Tom replied that Boeing was implementing two specific algorihms > that met the requirements of a distributed > algorithm operating with local information: use of MPRs > with acknowledgments (an example of which is Cisco's proposed > Overlapping Relays) and source-independent CDS > (an example of which is the algorithm described in Tao Lin's papers > from Virginia Tech). In the absence > of other algorithms suggested, we will proceed with evaluating both of > those specific algorithms. Are there better ones > to consider? As I mentioned above, I will be suggesting (by January) a few more CDS algorithms that can be considered. > > There were two comments on source-independent and source- > dependent general approaches: > i) Joe mentioned that source-independent approaches might > have an implementation virtue that they don't require looking > at previous hop info, which may or may not be a difficult > piece of information to obtain at the routing layer depending > on the implementation. > There are some other advantages of source-independent flooding, such as faster recovery from link failures, and avoiding the need to report MPR selection to neighbors. > > ii) It was previously expressed, by Richard Ogier and then > Tom in his recent design team draft, that SI-CDS might > have a virtue in the OSPF environment that a solution that > elected a few "special nodes" might be more in line with > OSPF's design regarding database synchronization issues > (i.e., like the designated router approach). > Emmanuel (echoing a point made by Joe on the list) mentioned that we > do not necessarily have to use the same special relay nodes used for > flooding to perform other tasks like database synchronization. The > flooding could be independent or decoupled from these other nodes used > for other functions. > Database synchronization *could* be independent of the CDS/MPR selection. However, it might be best to make them dependent, as in OSPF (where the DR is the flooding relay in a broadcast network, and an adjacency is formed between the DR and each of its neighbors). In the wireless extension, it might be best to form an adjacency only between each CDS node and its neighbors. > > Acee-- we might be able to have two levels of adjacency (adjacency > for database synchronization, and perhaps others such as ability > to use a "link" between them). We do things like this for Graceful > Restart already. The danger here is that we can introduce > a new level of transients. > > Joe: We've explored some of these different notions of adjacency, > although we found that they tend to help more in unreliable > flooding. > > Acee: There are three things to decide: > i) topology information to flood (whether full or partial) > ii) what router establishes what adjacencies with others > iii) flooding (don't have to flood everyone's LSA) > > Abhay: It may be possible to reduce the number of adjacencies > formed-- we've done some experiments on this topic. > Perhaps you (Abhay) are talking about forming adjacencies only between MPRs and their selectors? I am not sure this guarantees that all nodes will be synchronized if the algorithm converges after the last topology change. (Let me know if you mean something else.) If a CDS is used, and an adjacency is formed between each CDS node and its neighbors, then all nodes are synchronized (maybe this is another advantage of using a CDS). However, if MPRs are used, I have indicated in my draft an efficient way to achieve synchronization between all nodes: Each MPR node is responsible for flooding a subset of the LSAs (called its "reported originator set") , and for synchronizing with its neighbors with respect to this subset of LSAs. Regarding partial topology if a (source-independent) CDS is used, it is possible to flood only links that are adjacent to CDS nodes, i.e., only CDS nodes would need to originate LSAs. My simulations show that, if the right CDS algorithm is used, the resulting path between two nodes is only slightly longer than the min-hop path. (I will include this result in my upcoming draft.) Regards, Richard > Acee: A question-- does everyone need to be a router? > > Joe: No, only some nodes need to agree to forward packets. > Some nodes could refuse. Some nodes could agree to forward > only as a last resort. We have protocol mechanisms for this > in the MANET protocols. > > Tom indicated that he and Acee had agreed to two more members for the > design team that had indicated experience in this problem > space and a desire to participate. The first, Delia Kecskemeti > (WindRiver) is implementing OSPFv3. The second, David Green (SRI) has > experience in conducting larger-scale MANET experiments. Views were > expressed that we should not expand the design team too much more. > Joe and Abhay suggested that we might also include the author of the > SI-CDS proposal (Tao Lin) on discussions relating to his algorithm-- > he doesn't necessarily need to be on > the design team. Acee said that he would close down the lurkers that > had accidentally been able to subscribe to the design team list. > > Note that Padma Pillay-Esnault is now at Cisco and reachable > at ppe@cisco.com . > > (meeting adjourned) > > > _______________________________________________ > Ospf-wireless-design mailing list > Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 18 22:42:20 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA25088; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUzhx-0008EQ-Hk; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:45:13 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUzeR-0002cb-Lj; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:41:35 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CUzVg-0000fe-Uy for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:32:33 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24328 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.64.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CUzYR-0007zP-71 for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:35:23 -0500 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com ([192.42.227.216]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id TAA18987; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iAJ3Vqt25419; Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by XCH-NWBH-02.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:31:51 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] notes from our recent IETF meeting Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:31:51 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060918@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: [Ospf-wireless-design] notes from our recent IETF meeting Thread-Index: AcTNyYzJVX9kp0tSTfOfeThNIpcyTAAGI5og From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: "Richard Ogier" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Nov 2004 03:31:51.0745 (UTC) FILETIME=[4F299B10:01C4CDE8] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Emmanuel Baccelli , ppe@cisco.com, ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org, delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Richard, thanks for your feedback. =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Ogier [mailto:rich.ogier@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 3:51 PM > To: Henderson, Thomas R > Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; ppe@cisco.com; Emmanuel Baccelli; > delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] notes from our recent IETF meeting >=20 > > > Perhaps a better reference for relevant CDS algorithms is the=20 > following,=20 > which also describes a few (not necessarily new) CDS=20 > algorithms that do=20 > not require computing MPRs: >=20 > C. Adjih, P. Jacquet, and L. Viennot. "Computing connected > dominated sets with multipoint relays", INRIA research > report No. 4597, October 2002. >=20 > I assume you are talking about Tao Lin's paper, reference [9] of > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-spagnolo-manet-ospf- > design-00.txt Yes. > It is not clear from the description in the paper whether the CDS is=20 > source-independent (in the description, the choice seems to depend on=20 > the "sender node").=20 I think that the section in that paper is poorly worded (there is a typo s/j/k in the description). It probably should read something like "For each potential sender node, when a node i...". Anyway, the way we interpreted it and implemented it, the decision on whether a node is a CDS is made based on the two-hop info only, and not on the source of the LSA. > If it is indeed source-indepenent, then=20 > it appears=20 > to be the same as one of the CDS algorithms in the INRIA=20 > report, except=20 > that maximizing node degree is used as an additional=20 > objective=20 Yes. > (which I=20 > found not to work well, since it favors nodes that are close to the=20 > center of a given cluster, and also results in a less stable CDS). A=20 > similar CDS algorithm can be found in the following paper: =20 > J. Wu and H.=20 > Li. "A Dominating-Set-Based Routing Scheme in Ad Hoc Wireless=20 > Networks",=20 > Telecommunication Systems, Vol. 18, pp. 31-36, 2001. My recollection is that the variation on Wu/Li that Lin introduced was in fact this maximizing node degree step, with the argument being that it results in smaller CDS. But it is intuitive that the smaller CDS might be less stable. We did not try to make the Lin CDS more stable in our previous work by delaying updates (we immediately changed the CDS if the=20 neighbor information changed). >=20 > I plan to describe and present simulation results for a few CDS=20 > algorithms based on 2-hop neighbor information, including two=20 > from the=20 > above INRIA report and some improved variations. That would be good. We are preparing some simulation code as well and would like to include the best candidate algorithms. >=20 > Another issue is whether existing CDS nodes should remain in the CDS=20 > whenever possible (to maximize stability), just as a DR in=20 > OSPF remains=20 > a DR whenever possible. This is especially important if=20 > adjacencies are=20 > formed only between CDS nodes and their neighbors (so that a new CDS=20 > node must form adjacencies with all of its neighbors). Stability is one of the properties that we would like to consider. Tom _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 19 12:33:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24301; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVCgI-0001pc-Rd; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:36:23 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVCSf-000813-6v; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:22:17 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CVCMR-0004ut-KE for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:15:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22482 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:15:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop-a065c32.pas.sa.earthlink.net ([207.217.121.247]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CVCPH-0001Ia-4l for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:18:49 -0500 Received: from dialup-4.243.137.220.dial1.sanfrancisco1.level3.net ([4.243.137.220] helo=earthlink.net) by pop-a065c32.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CVCML-0003KC-00; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:15:46 -0800 Message-ID: <419E2A35.2020505@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:15:33 -0800 From: Richard Ogier User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 (emach0202) X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Henderson, Thomas R" Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] RE: notes from our recent IETF meeting References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C05F74C8E@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ppe@cisco.com, ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org, delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, Henderson, Thomas R wrote: >As I mentioned, we are working on a combined simulator/implementation >that the design team will be free to use to evaluate the proposed >mechanisms. > >It may also be helpful if we share some thoughts on how to parameterize, >conduct, and analyze any such simulations. To that end, I've attached a >first cut at a document that discusses these issues. Comments welcome. > >Tom > This combined simulator/implementation should be very helpful. I was thinking of porting the Zebra implementation of OSPFv3 to ns-2, but this will save a lot of time/effort. I have a few comments on your simulation parametrization and performance measures. In Section 3.2, I am not sure whether you are saying that the bulleted parameters are the tuning knobs. (You say that the mobility knobs indirectly tune these parameters.) If they are the tuning knobs, then the last two bullets (number of adjacencies being formed per node per second, and average number of LSAs different between two neighbors bringing up an adjacency) should not be there since they are protocol dependent. For example, if adjacencies are formed only between CDS nodes and their neighbors, then the number of adjacencies formed depends on how many nodes are in the CDS. Also, the last parameter (average number of LSAs different) makes no sense at all as a tuning knob. I would rather be able to control the mobility model directly (by giving number of nodes, dimensions of area, max speed of nodes) as in ns-2, and then have other dependent parameters (such as number of neighbors per node) be computed for me. Otherwise, I might unintentionally get a scenario that is unrealistic (e.g., nodes moving 537 mph). Also, although perhaps less important, we have discussed on the MANET list the disadvantage of the random waypoint model, which causes nodes to be concentrated toward the center of the square. A better mobility model, which results in a uniform distribution of nodes, is a random walk model in which each node moves in a random direction at a random speed for some (possibly random) time interval, bouncing off walls as in billiards, and then stops and chooses another random direction. Regarding performance measures, I think you should at least add average end-to-end delay of data packets. Also, it would be nice to measure the average time to recover from a single link failure. I.e., if a single link along a used path fails, how long does it take before packets are rerouted along another path. Regarding values of parameters, I guess the WG has decided to consider up to 100 nodes, but for simulation purposes it would be nice to allow more nodes (e.g., up to 250 or 500) to see how many nodes a given solution can support. As for node speed, we should have a few different node speeds corresponding to different types of networks, perhaps up to about 70 mph to model moving cars (again, to see what node speeds a given solution can support). Keep in mind that the actual frequency of topology changes will also depend on obstacles and interference (which apparently is not modeled in the simulator), so using higher node speeds would be the only way to increase the frequency of topology changes. Richard > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Ospf-wireless-design mailing list >Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 22 18:18:56 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA05102; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWNVs-0006C2-Af; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:22:38 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWNQB-0002BU-Kv; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:16:35 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWNGu-0005p0-5U for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:07:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03414 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.64.48]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWNKR-0004rL-9W for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:10:39 -0500 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com ([129.172.13.4]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2.MG.10092003/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id PAA26407; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from xch-nw-23p.nw.nos.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-AV-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id iAMN5ki12017; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NW-27.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.48.4.101]) by xch-nw-23p.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:05:29 -0800 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Subject: RE: [Ospf-wireless-design] RE: notes from our recent IETF meeting Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:05:28 -0800 Message-ID: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060922@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Thread-Topic: [Ospf-wireless-design] RE: notes from our recent IETF meeting Thread-Index: AcTOXQJE6x0CawiaSj+UKDs1arLowAChoLJQ From: "Henderson, Thomas R" To: "Richard Ogier" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Nov 2004 23:05:29.0358 (UTC) FILETIME=[C291E2E0:01C4D0E7] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ff9c467ad7f19c2a6d058acd7faaec8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Acee@cisco.com, ppe@cisco.com, ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org, delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 789c141a303c09204b537a4078e2a63f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Ogier [mailto:rich.ogier@earthlink.net]=20 > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:16 AM > To: Henderson, Thomas R > Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; ppe@cisco.com;=20 > delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com > Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] RE: notes from our recent=20 > IETF meeting >=20 > In Section 3.2, I am not sure whether you are saying that the=20 > bulleted=20 > parameters are the tuning knobs. (You say that the mobility knobs=20 > indirectly tune these parameters.)=20 I am saying that we can typically directly control things like grid = size, random waypoint mobility, velocity of nodes, pause time, etc. These may = vary from simulator to simulator, and can be problematic when trying to compare simulation results in an apples to apples fashion. Therefore, we have sought to identify statistics that can serve to parameterize the mobility environment regardless of what types of detailed mobility model is underlying. I have felt that many of the common MANET = parameters like pause time are not that relevant to the routing protocol-- what is more relevant is how many nodes are in the simulation, how many are reachable, and what is the rate of change of these neighbor = relationships (neighbors in the physical, RF-reachable sense). By measuring such statistics at the OSPF layer, there is inherently some imprecision and filtering effects (for example, being a neighbor at the OSPF layer is not the same as being a neighbor in the RF sense, since there is a lag time until one declares an OSPF neighbor in 2-Way or = not). However, the goal is to identify a set of statistics that is close = enough, such that if we say (number of nodes =3D 20, average number of neighbors = =3D 5,=20 average number of neighbor changes =3D 0.1 per second, etc.), one can tune the mobility model to compare results from one simulator to = another. Along these lines, there was a paper in last year's MILCOM from NIST that was grappling with this problem: "A Canonical Measure of Mobility for Mobile Ad Hoc Networks" by Kwak, Song, and Miller. They proposed a concept of "remoteness" as a unifying parameter to bring together different mobility models. Perhaps we should consider that in the future. > If they are the tuning knobs, then=20 > the last two bullets (number of adjacencies being formed per node per=20 > second, and average number of LSAs different between two neighbors=20 > bringing up an adjacency) should not be there since they are protocol=20 > dependent. For example, if adjacencies are formed only=20 > between CDS nodes=20 > and their neighbors, then the number of adjacencies formed depends on=20 > how many nodes are in the CDS. Also, the last parameter=20 > (average number=20 > of LSAs different) makes no sense at all as a tuning knob. They are not tuning knobs directly. The last parameter is intended to give some sense of the disconnectedness of the network-- do all LSA databases generally have all of the LSAs, or are there periods when the databases fall out of sync between groups of nodes? >=20 > I would rather be able to control the mobility model directly=20 > (by giving=20 > number of nodes, dimensions of area, max speed of nodes) as=20 > in ns-2, and=20 > then have other dependent parameters (such as number of neighbors per=20 > node) be computed for me. Otherwise, I might unintentionally get a=20 > scenario that is unrealistic (e.g., nodes moving 537 mph). Yes, that is what we do also. However, what we are trying to perhaps convince people to do is to report not only things like number of nodes, dimensions of area, etc., but also some parameters that are relevant to the routing protocol-- how much topology churn does the mobility model generate? And can we find protocol independent = parameters to characterize that topology churn observed at layer 3? >=20 > Also, although perhaps less important, we have discussed on the MANET=20 > list the disadvantage of the random waypoint model, which=20 > causes nodes=20 > to be concentrated toward the center of the square. A better=20 > mobility=20 > model, which results in a uniform distribution of nodes, is a random=20 > walk model in which each node moves in a random direction at a random=20 > speed for some (possibly random) time interval, bouncing off=20 > walls as in=20 > billiards, and then stops and chooses another random direction. Agreed. Also, in reality, there is likely more structure than = completely uncorrelated movements between nodes, whether due to terrain or organizational constraints. >=20 > Regarding performance measures, I think you should at least=20 > add average=20 > end-to-end delay of data packets.=20 This is pretty straightforward to add. > Also, it would be nice to=20 > measure the=20 > average time to recover from a single link failure. I.e., if a single=20 > link along a used path fails, how long does it take before=20 > packets are=20 > rerouted along another path. >=20 I think that this can be tabulated as well-- we can call it "path = outage" for example. > Regarding values of parameters, I guess the WG has decided to=20 > consider=20 > up to 100 nodes, but for simulation purposes it would be nice=20 > to allow=20 > more nodes (e.g., up to 250 or 500) to see how many nodes a given=20 > solution can support. As for node speed, we should have a few=20 > different=20 > node speeds corresponding to different types of networks,=20 > perhaps up to=20 > about 70 mph to model moving cars (again, to see what node speeds a=20 > given solution can support). Keep in mind that the actual=20 > frequency of=20 > topology changes will also depend on obstacles and=20 > interference (which=20 > apparently is not modeled in the simulator), so using higher=20 > node speeds=20 > would be the only way to increase the frequency of topology changes. >=20 Thanks for all of these inputs, Tom _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design From ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 22 23:18:31 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11217; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWSBz-00045z-6f; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:22:16 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWS0D-0004yz-VN; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:10:06 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWRuv-0003wV-LM for ospf-wireless-design@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:04:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA10157 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWRyV-0002A2-So for ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:08:20 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (64.102.124.13) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Nov 2004 23:11:02 -0500 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from fruitpie.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@fruitpie.cisco.com [64.102.16.27]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iAN444FL001181 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.2.6] (rtp-vpn2-484.cisco.com [10.82.241.228]) by fruitpie.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.6-GR) with ESMTP id BDO27429; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:04:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41A2B6B2.3070702@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:04:02 -0500 From: Acee Lindem User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] RE: notes from our recent IETF meeting References: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060922@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <6938661A6EDA8A4EA8D1419BCE46F24C04060922@xch-nw-27.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: OSPF Wireless Design Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ospf-wireless-design-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0e9ebc0cbd700a87c0637ad0e2c91610 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, On a related topic, I believe I have the membership list straightened out. I've added Padma, David, and Delia and removed all the users that subscribed before I had approvals enabled. Thanks, Acee Henderson, Thomas R wrote: > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Richard Ogier [mailto:rich.ogier@earthlink.net] >>Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:16 AM >>To: Henderson, Thomas R >>Cc: ospf-wireless-design@ietf.org; ppe@cisco.com; >>delia.kecskemeti@windriver.com >>Subject: Re: [Ospf-wireless-design] RE: notes from our recent >>IETF meeting >> >>In Section 3.2, I am not sure whether you are saying that the >>bulleted >>parameters are the tuning knobs. (You say that the mobility knobs >>indirectly tune these parameters.) >> >> > >I am saying that we can typically directly control things like grid size, >random waypoint mobility, velocity of nodes, pause time, etc. These may >vary from simulator to simulator, and can be problematic when trying to >compare simulation results in an apples to apples fashion. Therefore, >we have sought to identify statistics that can serve to parameterize >the mobility environment regardless of what types of detailed mobility >model is underlying. I have felt that many of the common MANET parameters >like pause time are not that relevant to the routing protocol-- what is >more relevant is how many nodes are in the simulation, how many >are reachable, and what is the rate of change of these neighbor relationships >(neighbors in the physical, RF-reachable sense). > >By measuring such statistics at the OSPF layer, there is inherently some >imprecision and filtering effects (for example, being a neighbor at the >OSPF layer is not the same as being a neighbor in the RF sense, since >there is a lag time until one declares an OSPF neighbor in 2-Way or not). >However, the goal is to identify a set of statistics that is close enough, >such that if we say (number of nodes = 20, average number of neighbors = 5, >average number of neighbor changes = 0.1 per second, etc.), one can >tune the mobility model to compare results from one simulator to another. > >Along these lines, there was a paper in last year's MILCOM from NIST >that was grappling with this problem: >"A Canonical Measure of Mobility for Mobile Ad Hoc Networks" by Kwak, >Song, and Miller. >They proposed a concept of "remoteness" as a unifying parameter to >bring together different mobility models. Perhaps we should consider >that in the future. > > > >>If they are the tuning knobs, then >>the last two bullets (number of adjacencies being formed per node per >>second, and average number of LSAs different between two neighbors >>bringing up an adjacency) should not be there since they are protocol >>dependent. For example, if adjacencies are formed only >>between CDS nodes >>and their neighbors, then the number of adjacencies formed depends on >>how many nodes are in the CDS. Also, the last parameter >>(average number >>of LSAs different) makes no sense at all as a tuning knob. >> >> > >They are not tuning knobs directly. The last parameter is intended >to give some sense of the disconnectedness of the network-- do all >LSA databases generally have all of the LSAs, or are there periods >when the databases fall out of sync between groups of nodes? > > > >>I would rather be able to control the mobility model directly >>(by giving >>number of nodes, dimensions of area, max speed of nodes) as >>in ns-2, and >>then have other dependent parameters (such as number of neighbors per >>node) be computed for me. Otherwise, I might unintentionally get a >>scenario that is unrealistic (e.g., nodes moving 537 mph). >> >> > >Yes, that is what we do also. However, what we are trying to perhaps >convince people to do is to report not only things like number of >nodes, dimensions of area, etc., but also some parameters that are >relevant to the routing protocol-- how much topology churn does the >mobility model generate? And can we find protocol independent parameters >to characterize that topology churn observed at layer 3? > > > >>Also, although perhaps less important, we have discussed on the MANET >>list the disadvantage of the random waypoint model, which >>causes nodes >>to be concentrated toward the center of the square. A better >>mobility >>model, which results in a uniform distribution of nodes, is a random >>walk model in which each node moves in a random direction at a random >>speed for some (possibly random) time interval, bouncing off >>walls as in >>billiards, and then stops and chooses another random direction. >> >> > >Agreed. Also, in reality, there is likely more structure than completely >uncorrelated movements between nodes, whether due to terrain or >organizational constraints. > > > >>Regarding performance measures, I think you should at least >>add average >>end-to-end delay of data packets. >> >> > >This is pretty straightforward to add. > > > >>Also, it would be nice to >>measure the >>average time to recover from a single link failure. I.e., if a single >>link along a used path fails, how long does it take before >>packets are >>rerouted along another path. >> >> >> >I think that this can be tabulated as well-- we can call it "path outage" >for example. > > > >>Regarding values of parameters, I guess the WG has decided to >>consider >>up to 100 nodes, but for simulation purposes it would be nice >>to allow >>more nodes (e.g., up to 250 or 500) to see how many nodes a given >>solution can support. As for node speed, we should have a few >>different >>node speeds corresponding to different types of networks, >>perhaps up to >>about 70 mph to model moving cars (again, to see what node speeds a >>given solution can support). Keep in mind that the actual >>frequency of >>topology changes will also depend on obstacles and >>interference (which >>apparently is not modeled in the simulator), so using higher >>node speeds >>would be the only way to increase the frequency of topology changes. >> >> >> > >Thanks for all of these inputs, > >Tom > > > _______________________________________________ Ospf-wireless-design mailing list Ospf-wireless-design@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf-wireless-design