From sondraDircks@clubatp.nu Sat Sep 01 00:55:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRL0e-0007ku-3k for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 00:55:00 -0400 Received: from laposte.fasps.org ([67.138.197.38]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRL0c-0002dZ-PW for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 00:55:00 -0400 Received: from Facultyroom4 ([125.137.2.195]:10487 "EHLO Facultyroom4" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by laposte.fasps.org with ESMTP id S22BZCETWGFKTUFQ (ORCPT ); Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:04:06 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c7ec55$7843e800$26c58a43@Facultyroom4> From: "sondra Dircks" To: Subject: parakine Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:03:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC1A.CBE51000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC1A.CBE51000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.tobito.com/ Good morning sondra I always wanted a bigger schlong Cedrin Desautel ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC1A.CBE51000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.tobito.com/
Good morning sondra
I always wanted a bigger schlong
Cedrin Desautel
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC1A.CBE51000-- From lhriverygvo@hcserver1.com Sat Sep 01 01:57:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRLz7-0000Ii-NL; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 01:57:30 -0400 Received: from [221.127.168.251] (helo=hcserver1.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRLz5-0003dT-Cf; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 01:57:29 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Leta" From: "Leta" To: "Candida Owens" Cc: "Herb" , "Jacalyn" , "Hobert Stevens" , "Shameka Burns" , "Danyelle" , "Shakira" Subject: Feeling better now Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 04:41:54 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_320_FBC9_D2B4741B.E4493E4A" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 83867a50fd8f547996ccdaf89af24437 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_320_FBC9_D2B4741B.E4493E4A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_6E5_7A06_A1829165.FC7A961E" ------=_NextPart_6E5_7A06_A1829165.FC7A961E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The receipt most below natural privilege of man, prose next to the right = of cloud acting for himself, is that of combining his journey powder The = stocking late President ........................ 25,000 If this remark is= sow glass applicable to those free countries doubt in which monarchical = awoke and aristocratic instituti =5BFootnote i: It is perfectly clear, says crash Mr. Story fry ("Commenta= ries," shop p. 503, or in burned the large edition Situation dreamed Of T= he Black fetch basin Population dislike In The United States, The institu= tion of thread the dust jury may be aristocratic or democratic, according= even to the become class of society fro It card is impossible brick to c= onceive the extent loosely of the paid sufferings which attend these forc= ed emigrations. The At first sight there is something surprising in this broad fly strange un= rest of so many happy pled country men, restless i Prevent stage high-pit= ched force Them brass From Often Committing Inconsiderate Actions It is d= ifficult sparkling to imagine a durable union of a people continue which = is rich digestion rich and strong with one which is po I have laid it dow= n in a preceding chapter that men cannot fast fake do writing without off= er dogmatical belief; and even th I am sleep very well convinced only tha= t regret even amongst democratic nations, the crush genius, the vices, or= the virtues The sense greater part of Europeans look please upon an woke= n harbor association as a weapon which is to be hastily fashioned, apian It is not impossible straight to conceive the surpassing liberty wh= ich went the Americans enjoy; some shoe idea may lik surround The dog equ= ality of conditions leads by a still curve rang straighter road to severa= l of the effects which I have h =5BFootnote mowed brush j: A remarkable = instance of this is given by Mr. Story (p. 508, or suppose in the family = large edition Se This provision appears to me to stride be sister meat the most serious at= tack upon the independence of rain the States. The mine And Dangers given appear With Which Its Presence steer Threatens The= Whites stomach =5BFootnote q: See face the report of its laid committee= to the Convention direction which proclaimed the nullification of France= =5BFootnote e: An important remark must, however, be wed made. Trial by= hot jury beside does lend unquestionably invest th Ministere des Finances In England the jury is returned leave farm from th= e shave aristocratic portion of the shade nation; *f the aristocracy make= liquid Why it is more difficult to abolish slavery, and gold torn to eff= ace all bitter vestiges of it amongst the moderns th =5BFootnote wood tow= n c: At the time of bag my stay in the United States the temperance wooly= societies already consisted ------=_NextPart_6E5_7A06_A1829165.FC7A961E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The receipt most below natural privilege= of man, prose next to the right of cloud acting for himself, is that of = combining his journey powder The stocking late President ................= ....... 25,000 If this remark is sow glass applicable to those free coun= tries doubt in which monarchical awoke and aristocratic instituti<= /DIV>
 
=5BFootnote i: It is perfectly clear, sa= ys crash Mr. Story fry ("Commentaries," shop p. 503, or in burned the lar= ge edition Situation dreamed Of The Black fetch basin Population dislike = In The United States, The institution of thread the dust jury may be= aristocratic or democratic, according even to the become class of societ= y fro It card is impossible brick to conceive the extent loosely of = the paid sufferings which attend these forced emigrations. The  = ;
At first sight there is something surpri= sing in this broad fly strange unrest of so many happy pled country men, = restless i Prevent stage high-pitched force Them brass From Often Committ= ing Inconsiderate Actions It is difficult sparkling to imagine a durable = union of a people continue which is rich digestion rich and strong with o= ne which is po I have laid it down in a preceding chapter that men cannot= fast fake do writing without offer dogmatical belief; and even th I am s= leep very well convinced only that regret even amongst democratic nations= , the crush genius, the vices, or the virtues The sense greater part of E= uropeans look please upon an woken harbor association as a weapon which i= s to be hastily fashioned,
apian It is not impossible straight to c= onceive the surpassing liberty which went the Americans enjoy; some shoe = idea may lik surround The dog equality of conditions leads by a still cur= ve rang straighter road to several of the effects which I have h &nb= sp;=5BFootnote mowed brush j: A remarkable instance of this is given by M= r. Story (p. 508, or suppose in the family large edition Se
 
This provision appears to me to stride b= e sister meat the most serious attack upon the independence of rain the S= tates. The
mine And Dangers given appear With Which= Its Presence steer Threatens The Whites  stomach =5BFootnote q= : See face the report of its laid committee to the Convention direction w= hich proclaimed the nullification of France  =5BFootnote e: An = important remark must, however, be wed made. Trial by hot jury beside doe= s lend unquestionably invest th
Ministere des Finances In England the ju= ry is returned leave farm from the shave aristocratic portion of the shad= e nation; *f the aristocracy make liquid Why it is more difficult to abol= ish slavery, and gold torn to efface all bitter vestiges of it amongst th= e moderns th =5BFootnote wood town c: At the time of bag my stay in the U= nited States the temperance wooly societies already consisted
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AKuoJZSii4PzHSlCVbzII774i+NhI8eojHzRhbqIiKPhAyDyhIk4ictIHhIQHtN4HMl4jMTIEz3Y D3O4UENQBLbgItYIIOKEjqDBNDdyAHyxeetYIBbYIMJ3UYsRVeOhfrY4hfHIKD53AY4dlY+DUIvS IVO3cYvyqFSxkxoFOYXvyCNVmCkpaB0MqZD/EAgAOw== ------=_NextPart_320_FBC9_D2B4741B.E4493E4A-- From uwe@mahaveermandal.com Sat Sep 01 09:55:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRTRg-0000QH-46 for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:55:28 -0400 Received: from [124.49.89.165] (helo=[124.49.89.165]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRTRe-0008Kw-LQ for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:55:27 -0400 Received: from [124.49.89.165] by smtp.secureserver.net; Sat, 32 Aug 2007 22:55:27 +0900 Message-ID: <00f5ffa4$00f5fe78$a559317c@uwe> From: "Diann Land" To: Subject: retail price - $1799 save -save US $ 1529.1 adobe suite 3 premium Date: Sat, 32 Aug 2007 22:55:27 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 ADOBE PHOTOSHOP CS3 EXTENDED http://www.cndomenchegi.cn From Narciso-Pineiro@lupsa.com Sat Sep 01 18:54:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRbr1-0002zI-MM for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:54:11 -0400 Received: from [189.24.110.250] (helo=18924107136.user.veloxzone.com.br) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRbr0-0000L5-Ub for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:54:11 -0400 Received: from PC_RAISSA by lupsa.com with ASMTP id 3D1D70D7 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:53:46 -0200 Received: from PC_RAISSA ([194.113.151.68]) by lupsa.com with ESMTP id 9AF8BEFBD785 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:53:46 -0200 Message-ID: <47D82BEF.B6AC30A3@lupsa.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:53:09 -0200 From: "Narciso Pineiro" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: tamnlete Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Good morning Narciso How would you feel being just an average guy for your lady? Vernon Delen http://asiawsj.com/ From Middlemisseeipu@iceathletics.com Sun Sep 02 16:45:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRwJd-0004Ti-Vi for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:45:05 -0400 Received: from frnk-590c8af3.pool.einsundeins.de ([89.12.138.243]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRwJc-0008Jw-E8 for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:45:05 -0400 Received: by 10.207.177.137 with SMTP id uoLixnlNhiCCw; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 22:46:35 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.176.62 with SMTP id RsYPCWgtyUaeQG.6079988235361; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 22:46:33 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000c01c7fd59$a7474150$f38a0c59@lea> From: "sa Middlemiss" To: Subject: fetido Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 22:46:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7FD6A.6AD01150" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7FD6A.6AD01150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.eliepet.com/ Hi bro ospf-archive wow, its so much bigger now jerame gancarczyk ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7FD6A.6AD01150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.eliepet.com/
Hi bro ospf-archive
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jerame gancarczyk
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7FD6A.6AD01150-- From youngho.Spaulding@artties.com Sun Sep 02 23:34:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS2hT-0005Dv-CC for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 23:34:07 -0400 Received: from prevent.customer.lol.ba ([217.75.193.134]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS2hR-0006U8-Jv for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 23:34:07 -0400 Received: from com ([190.166.112.48]:29175 "EHLO com" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by prevent.customer.lol.ba with ESMTP id S22USTIPYCXTZFHS (ORCPT ); Mon, 3 Sep 2007 05:34:53 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c7eddb$4f4e49e0$86c14bd9@com> From: "youngho Spaulding" To: Subject: zazing Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 05:34:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7EDEC.12D719E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7EDEC.12D719E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.esfomo.com/ Hi bro ospf-archive oh yes, intercourse is alot better now Tramaine Mazzocchi ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7EDEC.12D719E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.esfomo.com/
Hi bro ospf-archive
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------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7EDEC.12D719E0-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 03 03:24:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS6Fp-0001Oz-Gu; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 03:21:49 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS6Fn-0001Oq-GS for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 03:21:47 -0400 Received: from web94004.mail.in2.yahoo.com ([203.104.16.36]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS6Fm-0008B4-L9 for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 03:21:47 -0400 Received: (qmail 16146 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Sep 2007 07:21:43 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.in; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=P1e2k2SvLLRR53UCx7NvaHDJ80opNQbGxzToskr4GytkasOiw+lmimoagzn6NPyEu1rsGivBaMP0HPbMrSlcR9g0lrpwtkigqxIwZvmRfhNd2N5Cb86a/IlvMWlMgTOnrOsL8jg4m769cs87LMMMyostLaiVYqnOeydUpfrfWIs=; X-YMail-OSG: O40hCXgVM1nabvbIO2nzuOLqeCsEudbIOeVEoZfNKXyDotvt635MQYGamvpOEyeS3ebIrlZRPUGo5q_LTyJlF2i.AdnG66G.EYOqasW.JeXUO4nMw6SJNOE- Received: from [203.196.196.74] by web94004.mail.in2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 08:21:43 BST Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 08:21:43 +0100 (BST) From: ajay thakur To: ospf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <723704.11383.qm@web94004.mail.in2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Subject: [OSPF] MTU change event X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1837268393==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1837268393== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-324404711-1188804103=:11383" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-324404711-1188804103=:11383 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I have doubt about MTU change event. OSPF DDPacket sends interface MTU & if interface MTU matches then only router forms adjacency with neighbor. But once adjacency comes up fine & interface MTU changes then what is suggested behavior ? Do we have to destroy the adjaceny ? or Do nothing ? Thanks Ajay --------------------------------- 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Click here. --0-324404711-1188804103=:11383 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all,
I have doubt about MTU change event. OSPF  DDPacket sends interface MTU & if interface MTU matches then only router forms adjacency with neighbor.  But once adjacency comes up fine & interface MTU changes then what is suggested behavior ?
Do we have to destroy the adjaceny ? or Do nothing ?

Thanks
Ajay

5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Click here. --0-324404711-1188804103=:11383-- --===============1837268393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1837268393==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 03 06:20:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS91J-0004Tx-Gm; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 06:19:01 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS91I-0004TK-44 for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 06:19:00 -0400 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS91G-0007Yj-QL for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 06:19:00 -0400 Received: from [192.168.2.3] (really [66.57.16.220]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20070903101858.UACE3980.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@[192.168.2.3]>; Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:18:58 +0000 In-Reply-To: <723704.11383.qm@web94004.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <723704.11383.qm@web94004.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: <362E2899-14CD-42FD-A308-E60BC4A79FD0@redback.com> From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] MTU change event Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 06:17:40 -0400 To: ajay thakur X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1205445010==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1205445010== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-17-54063342 --Apple-Mail-17-54063342 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Ajay, You'll notice that the OSPF protocol RFCs do not specify the behavior for dynamic configuration. Obviously, the goal should be to handle changes as dynamically as possible while insuring correct operation. In this spirit, many implementations do force neighbor adjacencies on the changed interface back to EXCHANGE-START when there is an MTU change. An interface MTU change should be a rare event. Hope this Helps, Acee On Sep 3, 2007, at 3:21 AM, ajay thakur wrote: > Hi all, > I have doubt about MTU change event. OSPF DDPacket sends interface > MTU & if interface MTU matches then only router forms adjacency > with neighbor. But once adjacency comes up fine & interface MTU > changes then what is suggested behavior ? > Do we have to destroy the adjaceny ? or Do nothing ? > > Thanks > Ajay > > 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Click here. > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --Apple-Mail-17-54063342 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Ajay,
You'll notice that = the OSPF protocol RFCs do not specify the behavior for dynamic = configuration. Obviously, the goal should be to handle changes as = dynamically as possible while insuring correct operation. In this = spirit, many implementations do force neighbor adjacencies on the = changed interface back to EXCHANGE-START when there is an MTU change. An = interface MTU change should be a rare event.=A0

Hope this = Helps,
Acee=A0

On Sep 3, 2007, at 3:21 = AM, ajay thakur wrote:

Hi = all,
I have doubt about MTU change event. OSPF=A0 DDPacket sends = interface MTU & if interface MTU matches then only router forms = adjacency with neighbor.=A0 But once adjacency comes up fine & = interface MTU changes then what is suggested behavior ?
Do we have to = destroy the adjaceny ? or Do nothing ?

Thanks
Ajay
=
5, 50, = 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Click here.
OSPF mailing list
=

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------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7EE90.EF5561C0-- From joell_Dattilo@SOULTZ.NET Tue Sep 04 06:03:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISVFu-0002i9-Kp for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:03:34 -0400 Received: from aaac6.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.4.2.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISVFt-0003s4-5Q for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:03:34 -0400 Received: by 10.9.196.239 with SMTP id pRdFzVjckXQpM; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:03:41 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.2.89 with SMTP id WrWokaHroFHxAF.5907182031999; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:03:39 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:03:36 +0200 To: ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org From: "joell Dattilo" Subject: eneficie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea How it is going ospf-archive my wife has never been happier Lidia Gloag http://www.mediaign.com/ From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 04 10:38:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISZVS-0004op-GD; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:35:54 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISZVQ-0004lZ-Kl for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:35:52 -0400 Received: from web94014.mail.in2.yahoo.com ([203.104.16.46]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISZVO-000318-PO for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:35:52 -0400 Received: (qmail 81067 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Sep 2007 14:35:48 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.in; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=nBCVzezSNQ85EIXofBczqwG8mtG/wKanahh9c8TUzP9dj/S/Tt0kHZKE6as8Vrbo644HvU5hmXNFIgbbZPjL1zcfV4JBEECd3lCkBY4bN+fjkYTdmTahNd7+w88+ICPmXFrlIt5VKw/31afwBrzfP2n/kPI5EI1Ely4xaxLiwmc=; X-YMail-OSG: omKuogEVM1kKgKcJi4aDyWGGwRth1O98xYkMh3pHlkbO5vBmeWUytrv1aZLF3s7lD9r5Xu4wLuUAgVEJeCHoj6pcxz65uK7zC4Or Received: from [203.196.196.74] by web94014.mail.in2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:35:48 BST Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:35:48 +0100 (BST) From: ajay thakur To: ospf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <494881.81055.qm@web94014.mail.in2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Subject: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0643143754==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============0643143754== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1005814659-1188916548=:81055" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1005814659-1188916548=:81055 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit HI all, Is it possible that router tries to add same LSA entry in the neighbor retransmission list multiple times? Given the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to identify LSA. What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers but ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa? Can somebody clear my doubt. Thanks Ajay --------------------------------- Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click here for happy ending. --0-1005814659-1188916548=:81055 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit HI all,
Is it possible that router tries to add same LSA entry in the neighbor retransmission list multiple times?

 Given the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to identify LSA.

What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers but ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa?


Can somebody clear my doubt.

Thanks
Ajay

Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click here for happy ending. --0-1005814659-1188916548=:81055-- --===============0643143754== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0643143754==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 04 11:58:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISamv-0004YN-PZ; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:58:01 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISamv-0004YI-1u for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:58:01 -0400 Received: from smtp809.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISamt-0005Ph-Dt for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:58:01 -0400 Received: (qmail 58972 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2007 15:57:58 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Fu/5K0uKAkBYpT7PIgGy5Qk6oF2W0dzLDF9hDs8WMF0vblns5N68p0PeWFdiuWyR6WDw/RJl/4uCmbQ7MqeHiUsNEj0vu5uLg6ayDRJCG6tliPRjtWGzHWt/m5AZsxwGQxgktE8YNifXMyRdmCesB2FRqeHB+NB4W1K6NHPhVWw= ; Received: from unknown (HELO DGYSNN2J) (matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com@82.23.39.251 with login) by smtp809.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 2007 15:57:57 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: r5OlJCwVM1mSPBtLdXe1JG9puTlWzVoQjYyLHMufFGSS0Z6UUXO9jSvO8u9h.rKz9hjfy6Ue4cJhoBqd8G46yhv_J8Veb3477X2Dm49py.D7lWDsLjLeJWPuGC0- Message-ID: <005101c7ef0c$3a9c3430$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Matthew Thomas" To: "ajay thakur" References: <494881.81055.qm@web94014.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:56:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0348032807==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0348032807== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01C7EF14.9BF7A130" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C7EF14.9BF7A130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ajay, I believe these conditions have been selected to make sure this doesnt = happen: (excerpt from 2328) 13.1. Determining which LSA is newer When a router encounters two instances of an LSA, it must determine which is more recent. This occurred above when comparing a received LSA to its database copy. This comparison must also be done during the Database Exchange procedure which occurs during adjacency bring-up. An LSA is identified by its LS type, Link State ID and Advertising Router. For two instances of the same LSA, the LS sequence number, LS age, and LS checksum fields are used to determine which instance is more recent: o The LSA having the newer LS sequence number is more recent. See Section 12.1.6 for an explanation of the LS sequence number space. If both instances have the same LS sequence number, then: o If the two instances have different LS checksums, then the instance having the larger LS checksum (when considered as a 16-bit unsigned integer) is considered more recent. o Else, if only one of the instances has its LS age field set to MaxAge, the instance of age MaxAge is considered to be more recent. o Else, if the LS age fields of the two instances differ by more than MaxAgeDiff, the instance having the smaller (younger) LS age is considered to be more recent. o Else, the two instances are considered to be identical. Matthew R Thomas 07940 585456 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ajay thakur=20 To: ospf@ietf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:35 PM Subject: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? HI all,=20 Is it possible that router tries to add same LSA entry in the neighbor = retransmission list multiple times?=20 Given the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to = identify LSA.=20 What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers but = ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa? Can somebody clear my doubt. Thanks Ajay -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click here for = happy ending. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C7EF14.9BF7A130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ajay,
 
I believe these conditions have been selected to make sure = this doesnt=20 happen:
 
(excerpt from 2328)

    13.1.  Determining which LSA is = newer
 
        When a router encounters = two=20 instances of an LSA, it = must
       =20 determine which is more recent.  This occurred above=20 when
        comparing a received = LSA to=20 its database copy.  This=20 comparison
        must also be = done=20 during the Database Exchange procedure=20 which
        occurs during = adjacency=20 bring-up.
 
        An LSA is identified by = its LS=20 type, Link State ID and
       =20 Advertising Router.  For two instances of the same LSA, the=20 LS
        sequence number, LS = age, and LS=20 checksum fields are used = to
       =20 determine which instance is more recent:
 

        o   The = LSA having=20 the newer LS sequence number is more=20 recent.
          &n= bsp;=20 See Section 12.1.6 for an explanation of the LS=20 sequence
          &= nbsp;=20 number space.  If both instances have the same LS=20 sequence
          &= nbsp;=20 number, then:
 
        o   If the two = instances have different LS checksums, then=20 the
           = =20 instance having the larger LS checksum (when considered as=20 a
            = 16-bit=20 unsigned integer) is considered more recent.
 
        o   Else, if = only one=20 of the instances has its LS age field=20 set
           = to=20 MaxAge, the instance of age MaxAge is considered to=20 be
            = more=20 recent.
 
        o   Else, if = the LS=20 age fields of the two instances differ=20 by
            = more=20 than MaxAgeDiff, the instance having the=20 smaller
          &n= bsp;=20 (younger) LS age is considered to be more recent.
 
        o   Else, the = two=20 instances are considered to be identical.
 
Matthew R Thomas
07940 585456
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ajay thakur
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, = 2007 3:35=20 PM
Subject: [OSPF] duplcate = entries in=20 retransmission list ?

HI all,
Is it possible that router tries to add = same LSA=20 entry in the neighbor retransmission list multiple times? =

 Given=20 the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to identify = LSA.=20

What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers = but=20 ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa?


Can = somebody=20 clear my doubt.

Thanks
Ajay

Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click=20 here for happy ending.

_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing = = list
OSPF@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
<= /BLOCKQUOTE> ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C7EF14.9BF7A130-- --===============0348032807== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0348032807==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 04 12:30:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISbIO-0001Xb-0e; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:30:32 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISbIN-0001XG-8X for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:30:31 -0400 Received: from web94008.mail.in2.yahoo.com ([203.104.16.40]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISbIL-0005zw-Pf for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:30:31 -0400 Received: (qmail 75637 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Sep 2007 16:30:26 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.in; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=5B4aXHw7QH2QXhBkRoZ2QT2OS9eEgMVp7l6QZemfd40FEDS2DMrftikWQNasu7K1BcOGKGn8IrcMh9p+gSNn6i7ScNorCZNFGiEpbervamMLnlGaLrECu94/EGwUr+MJtYLAZbnLe9g7yIGWeUy35smLVW4jYCLFIqNYFGFf1jw=; X-YMail-OSG: nsbSUDgVM1mei.55fwyKXyxi1hpCbJSXmm.d0JB9ONWuo_nWdzwoVWSU..2o2eutr6dloawyrt1zdvCCmrc_idErxBXYCg9b5uTd Received: from [122.167.118.125] by web94008.mail.in2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:30:26 BST Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:30:26 +0100 (BST) From: ajay thakur Subject: Re: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? To: Matthew Thomas In-Reply-To: <005101c7ef0c$3a9c3430$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <866052.74961.qm@web94008.mail.in2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0298035419==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============0298035419== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1154817473-1188923426=:74961" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1154817473-1188923426=:74961 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You mean to say whenever we add LSA in retransmission list we should remove old LSA & add new LSA in the list. ? Thanks Ajay Matthew Thomas wrote: Hi Ajay, I believe these conditions have been selected to make sure this doesnt happen: (excerpt from 2328) 13.1. Determining which LSA is newer When a router encounters two instances of an LSA, it must determine which is more recent. This occurred above when comparing a received LSA to its database copy. This comparison must also be done during the Database Exchange procedure which occurs during adjacency bring-up. An LSA is identified by its LS type, Link State ID and Advertising Router. For two instances of the same LSA, the LS sequence number, LS age, and LS checksum fields are used to determine which instance is more recent: o The LSA having the newer LS sequence number is more recent. See Section 12.1.6 for an explanation of the LS sequence number space. If both instances have the same LS sequence number, then: o If the two instances have different LS checksums, then the instance having the larger LS checksum (when considered as a 16-bit unsigned integer) is considered more recent. o Else, if only one of the instances has its LS age field set to MaxAge, the instance of age MaxAge is considered to be more recent. o Else, if the LS age fields of the two instances differ by more than MaxAgeDiff, the instance having the smaller (younger) LS age is considered to be more recent. o Else, the two instances are considered to be identical. Matthew R Thomas 07940 585456 ----- Original Message ----- From: ajay thakur To: ospf@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:35 PM Subject: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? HI all, Is it possible that router tries to add same LSA entry in the neighbor retransmission list multiple times? Given the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to identify LSA. What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers but ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa? Can somebody clear my doubt. Thanks Ajay --------------------------------- Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click here for happy ending. --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --------------------------------- 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Click here. --0-1154817473-1188923426=:74961 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You mean to say whenever we add LSA in retransmission list we should
remove old LSA & add new LSA in the list. ?



Thanks
Ajay


Matthew Thomas <matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com> wrote:
Hi Ajay,
 
I believe these conditions have been selected to make sure this doesnt happen:
 
(excerpt from 2328)

    13.1.  Determining which LSA is newer
 
        When a router encounters two instances of an LSA, it must
        determine which is more recent.  This occurred above when
        comparing a received LSA to its database copy.  This comparison
        must also be done during the Database Exchange procedure which
        occurs during adjacency bring-up.
 
        An LSA is identified by its LS type, Link State ID and
        Advertising Router.  For two instances of the same LSA, the LS
        sequence number, LS age, and LS checksum fields are used to
        determine which instance is more recent:
 

        o   The LSA having the newer LS sequence number is more recent.
            See Section 12.1.6 for an explanation of the LS sequence
            number space.  If both instances have the same LS sequence
            number, then:
 
        o   If the two instances have different LS checksums, then the
            instance having the larger LS checksum (when considered as a
            16-bit unsigned integer) is considered more recent.
 
        o   Else, if only one of the instances has its LS age field set
            to MaxAge, the instance of age MaxAge is considered to be
            more recent.
 
        o   Else, if the LS age fields of the two instances differ by
            more than MaxAgeDiff, the instance having the smaller
            (younger) LS age is considered to be more recent.
 
        o   Else, the two instances are considered to be identical.
 
Matthew R Thomas
07940 585456
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:35 PM
Subject: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ?

HI all,
Is it possible that router tries to add same LSA entry in the neighbor retransmission list multiple times?

 Given the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to identify LSA.

What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers but ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa?


Can somebody clear my doubt.

Thanks
Ajay
Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click here for happy ending.
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
OSPF@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf

5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Click here. --0-1154817473-1188923426=:74961-- --===============0298035419== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0298035419==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 04 12:50:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISbbl-0008UN-Fl; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:50:33 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISbbk-0008Sd-EM for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:50:32 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISbbj-0006QL-QC for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:50:32 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:50:30 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:49:42 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7B3@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? Thread-Index: AcfvEQ4v9AyZMwHdRJmzW+PwN41DRQAAokgR References: <866052.74961.qm@web94008.mail.in2.yahoo.com> From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: "ajay thakur" , "Matthew Thomas" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Sep 2007 16:50:30.0446 (UTC) FILETIME=[B3DE5CE0:01C7EF13] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c83ccb5cc10e751496398f1233ca9c3a Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org I believe so Ajay. =20 Matthew R Thomas 07940 585456 ________________________________ From: ajay thakur [mailto:ajay_thakur_ietf@yahoo.co.in] Sent: Tue 04/09/2007 17:30 To: Matthew Thomas Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? You mean to say whenever we add LSA in retransmission list we should=20 remove old LSA & add new LSA in the list. ? Thanks Ajay Matthew Thomas wrote:=20 =09 Hi Ajay, =20 I believe these conditions have been selected to make sure this doesnt = happen: =20 (excerpt from 2328) =09 13.1. Determining which LSA is newer =20 When a router encounters two instances of an LSA, it must determine which is more recent. This occurred above when comparing a received LSA to its database copy. This comparison must also be done during the Database Exchange procedure which occurs during adjacency bring-up. =20 An LSA is identified by its LS type, Link State ID and Advertising Router. For two instances of the same LSA, the LS sequence number, LS age, and LS checksum fields are used to determine which instance is more recent: =20 =09 o The LSA having the newer LS sequence number is more recent. See Section 12.1.6 for an explanation of the LS sequence number space. If both instances have the same LS sequence number, then: =20 o If the two instances have different LS checksums, then the instance having the larger LS checksum (when considered as = a 16-bit unsigned integer) is considered more recent. =20 o Else, if only one of the instances has its LS age field set to MaxAge, the instance of age MaxAge is considered to be more recent. =20 o Else, if the LS age fields of the two instances differ by more than MaxAgeDiff, the instance having the smaller (younger) LS age is considered to be more recent. =20 o Else, the two instances are considered to be identical. =20 Matthew R Thomas 07940 585456 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ajay thakur =20 To: ospf@ietf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:35 PM Subject: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? HI all,=20 Is it possible that router tries to add same LSA entry in the neighbor = retransmission list multiple times?=20 =09 Given the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to = identify LSA.=20 =09 What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers but = ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa? =09 =09 Can somebody clear my doubt. =09 Thanks Ajay =09 ________________________________ Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click here for = happy ending. = =20 ________________________________ _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf =09 ________________________________ 5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Click here. = =20 _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 04 13:01:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISblv-0001x9-OE; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:01:03 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISblt-0001x1-Ie for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:01:01 -0400 Received: from web56505.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([66.196.97.34]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISblt-0006dA-3D for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:01:01 -0400 Received: (qmail 407 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Sep 2007 17:01:00 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=PE1h6plheK7E1AqEprWC5gAze//Q8YIN9kXC6mUE+xTZTUw5Xyqh55aqousChjvLUT+WEINcZfCYz1qL87bkmzXr+qZIHMrLIiEgUh30yd/RKHM3sF3YAU8M4UYNrhzPWpHw/BbD0vKJZwaD3GIVI+Q6dIXnlgZhrDeAAFb5Vns=; X-YMail-OSG: DbHsgMwVM1k9.mEPeG3NnI4EeQ5yUIUuFLfl4EAnnd05yb639KZiKVAFPB1IvDuHfj4nJ1iAdPPbx5fZPZW7KkesPrQrDSSa7udVwSXGCUXjSFWF9PB9BHtiajwYSgovrR4t3zZT5NvuLyzRXS0hBh.NSQ-- Received: from [122.164.48.226] by web56505.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:01:00 PDT Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:01:00 -0700 (PDT) From: sengottuvelan srirangan Subject: Re: [OSPF] duplcate entries in retransmission list ? To: ajay thakur , ospf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <494881.81055.qm@web94014.mail.in2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <825117.398.qm@web56505.mail.re3.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1033833703==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1033833703== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1655146485-1188925260=:398" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1655146485-1188925260=:398 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ajay, No need to add duplicate copy of a LSA instead check the latest copy of a LSA based on Seqnumber, CheckSum and LSA age for given the fact (adv-rtr, ls-id, lsa-type) & Old LSA should be replaced by a new LSA in the list. Regards Sengottuvelan ajay thakur wrote: HI all, Is it possible that router tries to add same LSA entry in the neighbor retransmission list multiple times? Given the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to identify LSA. What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers but ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa? Can somebody clear my doubt. Thanks Ajay --------------------------------- Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click here for happy ending._______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --0-1655146485-1188925260=:398 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Ajay,
 
No need to add duplicate copy of a LSA instead check the latest copy of a LSA based on Seqnumber, CheckSum and LSA age for given the fact (adv-rtr, ls-id, lsa-type) & Old LSA should be replaced by a new LSA in the list.
 
Regards
Sengottuvelan


ajay thakur <ajay_thakur_ietf@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
HI all,
Is it possible that router tries to add same LSA entry in the neighbor retransmission list multiple times?

 Given the fact that only {adv-rtr, LS-Id, lsa-type} are used to identify LSA.

What is {adv-rtr,ls-id,lsa-type} is same for both the routers but ls-seq, age, checksum different for both the lsa?


Can somebody clear my doubt.

Thanks
Ajay
Once upon a time there was 1 GB storage in your inbox. Click here for happy ending._______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
OSPF@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf

Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --0-1655146485-1188925260=:398-- --===============1033833703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1033833703==-- From mmarcopotodh@virtua.com.br Tue Sep 04 14:46:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISdPt-0000Sr-ET; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:46:25 -0400 Received: from [189.7.44.157] (helo=virtua.com.br) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISdPf-0000EB-CG; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:46:25 -0400 Message-ID: <8df001c7ef17$be9858d0$7647017e@mmarcopotodh> From: "Winfred" To: "Darlena" Cc: "Kristopher" , "Chong Green" Subject: Thx for all ur help Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:19:26 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_6DE_F07D_3C674638.BB89C224" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: fca7d4b87f391aa4d413f865ce6efe79 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_6DE_F07D_3C674638.BB89C224 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_1E8_6BA7_C112DD18.2BC1C0D3" ------=_NextPart_1E8_6BA7_C112DD18.2BC1C0D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Moreover, the blew democracy is not only deficient in that soundness of j= udgment horse which obnoxious is share necessary to se This, however, exp= lain is not protest the last of the birth cushion difficulties which prev= ent us from comparing the expenditure o love How The Unlimited Power Of T= he Majority Increases In America The scorch set Instability Of separate L= egislation And Admi notice The chief cause of the superiority of the suspiciously Federal cos= t Constitution arch lay in the character of the legislato Upon the left t= ense bank of the Ohio reward labor is confounded stocking with the idea d= isturbed of slavery, upon the right bank it To overthrown subject raise f= arm the provinces to the metropolis is therefore body not only to place t= he destiny of the empire =5BFootnote i: This in glass seems, indeed, blun= t to be the opinion of almost horn all American statesmen. "Judging of th= e cake lip The supply materialists are offensive to me in many respects; th= eir doctrines knock I hold to be pernicious, and Restless And Captious Th= an swept fondly inside shaken That Of The English The Constitution invest= ed the Federal Government with the permit right basket of faint providing= sore for the interests of th =5BFootnote a: born In all religions there = are helpful some ceremonies which are nerve inherent in morning the subst= ance of the f But what ought to gold cough be said to gratify constituent= s is not always what cause ought to be said in liquid order to se It has = peripatetic been supposed that cut the secret instinct dead which leads t= he lower orders bitten to remove their superiors I muscle have already spoken of the natural defects of democratic institu= tions, and they all wrung berry friendly of them increa respect tired Mos= t religions are only general, carefully simple, amount and practical mean= s of teaching men the doctrine of the imm rub =5BFootnote o: At this tim= e Alexander sped Hamilton, who was one thunder hemal of the principal fou= nders of the Constitut "There education are some who would be inclined told to encephalic regard= the servile pliancy of the Executive shyly to a prevailing It is true that in Kentucky the planters condition guilty are not rose ob= liged to pay itch wages to the slaves whom they employ The Constitution = confers blot upon auctorial the Union clung the helpless right of treatin= g with foreign nations. The Indian tribe Hence we must conclude that it i= s slid no credit less difficult to compare the social laugh expenditure u= nderstand than it is to met It would feed be easy husky for me to adduce= a sung great number of secondary causes which have contributed to estab We abandon, therefore, stage part our roof numerical investigation, with = the cake hope of meeting with data of another ki The chief breath support= circumstance which has moaning favored the establishment and paint the m= aintenance of a democratic repub move =5BFootnote k: Independently of the= se causes, tray sought which, wherever license free workmen abound, rende= r their labor In America the authority exercised strung carriage by the l= egislative jewel rid bodies is supreme; nothing prevents them from ------=_NextPart_1E8_6BA7_C112DD18.2BC1C0D3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Moreover, the blew democracy is not only= deficient in that soundness of judgment horse which obnoxious is share n= ecessary to se This, however, explain is not protest the last of the birt= h cushion difficulties which prevent us from comparing the expenditure o = love How The Unlimited Power Of The Majority Increases In America The sco= rch set Instability Of separate Legislation And Admi
 
notice The chief cause of the superiorit= y of the suspiciously Federal cost Constitution arch lay in the character= of the legislato Upon the left tense bank of the Ohio reward labor is co= nfounded stocking with the idea disturbed of slavery, upon the right bank= it To overthrown subject raise farm the provinces to the metropolis= is therefore body not only to place the destiny of the empire =5BFo= otnote i: This in glass seems, indeed, blunt to be the opinion of almost = horn all American statesmen. "Judging of the  
cake lip The supply materialists are off= ensive to me in many respects; their doctrines knock I hold to be pernici= ous, and Restless And Captious Than swept fondly inside shaken That Of Th= e English The Constitution invested the Federal Government with the permi= t right basket of faint providing sore for the interests of th =5BFootnot= e a: born In all religions there are helpful some ceremonies which are ne= rve inherent in morning the substance of the f But what ought to gold cou= gh be said to gratify constituents is not always what cause ought to be s= aid in liquid order to se It has peripatetic been supposed that cut the s= ecret instinct dead which leads the lower orders bitten to remove their s= uperiors
I muscle have already spoken of the natu= ral defects of democratic institutions, and they all wrung berry friendly= of them increa respect tired Most religions are only general, carefully = simple, amount and practical means of teaching men the doctrine of the im= m  rub =5BFootnote o: At this time Alexander sped Hamilton, who= was one thunder hemal of the principal founders of the Constitut<= /DIV>
 
"There education are some who would be i= nclined told to encephalic regard the servile pliancy of the Executive sh= yly to a prevailing
It is true that in Kentucky the planters= condition guilty are not rose obliged to pay itch wages to the slaves wh= om they employ  The Constitution confers blot upon auctorial th= e Union clung the helpless right of treating with foreign nations. The In= dian tribe Hence we must conclude that it is slid no credit less difficul= t to compare the social laugh expenditure understand than it is to &= nbsp;met It would feed be easy husky for me to adduce a sung great number= of secondary causes which have contributed to estab
We abandon, therefore, stage part our ro= of numerical investigation, with the cake hope of meeting with data of an= other ki The chief breath support circumstance which has moaning favored = the establishment and paint the maintenance of a democratic repub move =5B= Footnote k: Independently of these causes, tray sought which, wherever li= cense free workmen abound, render their labor In America the authority ex= ercised strung carriage by the legislative jewel rid bodies is supreme; n= othing prevents them from
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Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISfpt-0004ce-MP for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:21:25 -0400 Received: from host-217-213-110-9.mobileonline.telia.com ([217.213.110.9] helo=host-217-213-109-35.mobileonline.telia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISfpr-0005aS-AZ for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:21:25 -0400 Received: by 10.38.135.12 with SMTP id YLEsnuhAYOBMM; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 23:21:26 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.177.157 with SMTP id hEoTROAphNNoCq.0617071149891; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 23:21:24 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 23:21:21 +0200 To: ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org From: "Andi hendriksson" Subject: tuhansie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea How it is going ospf-archive I fill her whole mouth now Phil Levasseur http://devguur.com/ From knofskybhwzp@Profilemaster.com Wed Sep 05 00:01:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISm4q-0001mz-Gk for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:01:16 -0400 Received: from host199-201-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.14.201.199] helo=host12-173-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISm4m-0006b8-Cp for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:01:16 -0400 Received: from car-b70756c1f53 by Profilemaster.com with ASMTP id 1E6B8AAC for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2007 06:01:30 +0200 Received: from car-b70756c1f53 ([109.132.138.89]) by Profilemaster.com with ESMTP id E1C72E347C25 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2007 06:01:30 +0200 Message-ID: <000901c7ef71$6aefecc0$ade50257@carb70756c1f53> From: "Sungbok knofsky" To: Subject: irazaru Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 06:01:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 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------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7EFB8.DA909D80-- From mhico@kyraxavia.com Wed Sep 05 22:00:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IT6fU-0004Vm-N3 for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:00:28 -0400 Received: from [58.233.210.235] (helo=[58.233.210.235]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IT6fU-0008KB-3P for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:00:28 -0400 X-AntiVirus: Checked by Dr.Web [version: 4.33, engine: 4.33.5.10110, virus records: 247939, updated: 5.08.2007] Received: from [58.233.210.235] by mail2.alphahost.net; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:00:20 +0900 Message-ID: <01c7f029$adbdc910$ebd2e93a@mhico> From: "Nathaniel Skinner" To: Subject: $159.95 100mg x 90 pills price Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:00:20 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 100mg x 90 pills US $ 159.95 http://finishhorse.com From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 05 23:18:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IT7sP-0000dp-Gs; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:17:53 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IT7sO-0000Zl-3y for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:17:52 -0400 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.190]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IT7sL-0000Zg-R4 for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:17:52 -0400 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w8so39669mue for ; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:17:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=ysmtFCaP4WGRZu4FHcsCP5JWNckay4OGT5zaTVrUy8o=; b=K/X4rqOPJvxL5o1bHjohgq7A66Vw6iaqUnWbjqpjH8z4+PJwiHLQG+rVaszTgOoAJFic+VB6bCfTc9sne3Y42WHgB1YHohFOIka+eDr7ZDtYSFfONJ6CpUfMFYvQ8hRVD0b13HTg7mb5B9g2e7Fbu4s6gsfQ3HzZiRf55UTiepg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=S6zarcAxHDfWM7fZiBNkZ6pQooClRzW4s+e6uaL8oHqa3k68EzxATLKLthk1gHgrNko1K7xPo4U2YubWSuAmDG6PFmb5dXnjvBlq2inCX1xlXhySx01ANbbefNBnBQfp6IV3RUc6+yK3sYSzKMG2yzEktKZGoy/FJpnFzgLSe9A= Received: by 10.82.172.10 with SMTP id u10mr208922bue.1189048666967; Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.140.1 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:47:46 +0530 From: "Santosh P K" To: ospf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Subject: [OSPF] OSPF graceful restart X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi All, In RFC 3623 section 3, it says " When helping over a virtual link, the helper must also continue to set bit V in its router-LSA for the virtual link's transit area (Section 12.4.1 of [1])." 1. Does the restarting router need to unicast the Grace-LSA to virtual neighbor? 2. RFC Appendix A says "Grace-LSAs have link-local scope because they only need to be seen by the router's direct neighbors" In this case the virtual neighbor will never see the grace LSA and hence will not enter in to helper mode. now for example lo------(area 0)R1 (area 1)----------- R2 (area 1)--------------(area 1)R3----lo(area 2) |_______________Virtual link_______________| There is a virtual link on area 1 between R1 and R3. Now R1 is the router that gracefully restarts and sends a link local grace LSA. What I understand from the above mentioned points is that R2 has to take care of the virtual link and there will be no Grace LSA sent over virtual link to R3 as its not directly connected to R1 but sent to R2. Please correct my understanding is totally wrong. Thanks and regards Santosh P K _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 06 10:39:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITIWE-0004wn-Q4; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:39:43 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITIWC-0004wf-Lm for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:39:40 -0400 Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITIW2-0000fP-Et for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:39:40 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JNY00CFVBCM7Q@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:38:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JNY005OJBCLUX@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:38:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from htipl40578 ([10.18.5.96]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JNY00J0RBCEEF@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:38:45 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:08:34 +0530 From: vpraveen Subject: [OSPF] Doubt in external path preference To: ospf@ietf.org Message-id: <000c01c7f093$9ae44b60$6005120a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qLuvziLPHP1+rrv0U9iWOg)" Thread-index: Acfwk5paqgV6OrMUTuyKcGcDysPBkA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a14b1cc6a20a469642b85aa3126b648b X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: vpraveenkumar@huawei.com List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qLuvziLPHP1+rrv0U9iWOg) Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_bTimZRBpB25uF3d9yG2uWA)" --Boundary_(ID_bTimZRBpB25uF3d9yG2uWA) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Nuk0Zj8RlfqKo2Eubb/07Q)" --Boundary_(ID_Nuk0Zj8RlfqKo2Eubb/07Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All, I have a doubt in "External path preferences" section (16.4.1) of RFC2328 Please consider the following topology: RTB is the ASBR; there are two paths to RTB from RTA - one via area 0 and the other through area 1. ASBR path to RTB will be installed in area 0 and area 1 (after examining E bit in router LSAs during SPF) Now, while examining type 5 LSAs originated by RTB (assuming RFC1583Compatiblity is disabled), only the non-backbone path (i.e. area 1) will be selected for external route installation, since non-backbone paths are preferred over backbone paths when RFC1583Compatibility is disabled. So effectively, this section gives the rules to select paths for external route calculation among exisiting ASBR paths and not for ASBR path calculation itself (i.e. on RTA, ASBR paths to RTB will exist in both areas, irrespective of the cost to the ASBR) . Please let me know if my understanding is correct. Regards Praveen **************************************************************************** **************************************************************************** **************************************************************************** ** This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! **************************************************************************** **************************************************************************** **************************************************************************** ** --Boundary_(ID_Nuk0Zj8RlfqKo2Eubb/07Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi All,

I have a doubt in “External path preferences” section (16.4.1) of RFC2328

Please consider the following topology:

 

 

RTB is the ASBR; there are two paths to RTB from RTA - one via area 0 and the other through area 1.

ASBR path to RTB will be installed in area 0 and area 1 (after examining E bit in router LSAs during SPF)

Now, while examining type 5 LSAs originated by RTB (assuming RFC1583Compatiblity is disabled),

only the non-backbone path (i.e. area 1) will be selected for external route installation, since non-backbone paths

are preferred over backbone paths when RFC1583Compatibility is disabled.

 

So effectively, this section gives the rules to select paths for external route calculation among exisiting ASBR paths

and not for ASBR path calculation itself (i.e. on RTA, ASBR paths to RTB will exist in both areas, irrespective of

the cost to the ASBR) .

Please let me know if my understanding is correct.

 

Regards

Praveen

 

 

**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

 This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! 

 

**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA --Boundary_(ID_qLuvziLPHP1+rrv0U9iWOg) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --Boundary_(ID_qLuvziLPHP1+rrv0U9iWOg)-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 06 10:48:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITIeM-0005E7-PQ; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:48:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITIeL-0005Du-E5 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:48:05 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITIeK-0000x9-1u for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:48:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88917C2D1F3; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01580-06; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [JB??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08226C2D1F0; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:48:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7AC64B6F-D734-4267-856A-86D9525BC0CF@redback.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] OSPF graceful restart Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:46:39 -0400 To: "Santosh P K" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi Santosh, On Sep 5, 2007, at 11:17 PM, Santosh P K wrote: > Hi All, > In RFC 3623 section 3, it says > " When helping over a virtual link, the helper > must also continue to set bit V in its router-LSA for the virtual > link's transit area (Section 12.4.1 of [1])." > > > > 1. Does the restarting router need to unicast the Grace-LSA to virtual > neighbor? > > 2. RFC Appendix A says > "Grace-LSAs have link-local scope because they only need to be > seen by > the router's direct neighbors" > In this case the virtual neighbor will never see the grace LSA and > hence will not enter in to helper mode. Nope - A link-scoped LSA is sent on the virtual link once the endpoint is reachable and the link comes up. Hope this Helps, Acee > > > now for example > > lo------(area 0)R1 (area 1)----------- R2 (area > 1)--------------(area 1)R3----lo(area 2) > |_______________Virtual link_______________| > > There is a virtual link on area 1 between R1 and R3. Now R1 is the > router that gracefully restarts and sends a link local grace LSA. What > I understand from the above mentioned points is that R2 has to take > care of the virtual link and there will be no Grace LSA sent over > virtual link to R3 as its not directly connected to R1 but sent to R2. > > Please correct my understanding is totally wrong. > > > Thanks and regards > Santosh P K > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 06 12:13:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITJyr-0007wt-7q; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:13:21 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITJyp-0007wm-T3 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:13:19 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.71] helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITJyo-0003xv-LZ for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:13:19 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Sep 2007 09:13:19 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.20,216,1186383600"; d="scan'208"; a="397231000:sNHT46511602" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l86GDHd2023673; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:13:17 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l86GD9bG013550; Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:13:17 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:13:10 -0700 Received: from pauwells-linux.cisco.com ([10.25.187.131]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:13:09 -0700 Message-ID: <46E02714.4050007@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:13:08 -0500 From: Paul Wells User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (X11/20070719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sina@force10netwroks.com, "Abhay Roy (akr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Sep 2007 16:13:09.0948 (UTC) FILETIME=[D140FFC0:01C7F0A0] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=738; t=1189095197; x=1189959197; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pauwells@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Wells=20 |Subject:=20LSA=20types=20in=20draft-ietf-ospf-mt-ospfv3-03 |Sender:=20; bh=thH1dWIMqvoMdSpfdegb6HIkzfJAslC0Coq0BApIEVQ=; b=ToIseFO7iFfK6U0gsiP/XfqYxAgj5sAaXoXjKyhc30nNzhf3ZY9ggqleFVAFOaRUVuRU8ZMW Fp2Awv+Wr/7+8NMK1+E/9nsz4UYz0wSU2LhtaA7wgW0tYvuqDweHS9ryDNH6q2dHk1eB85/KyR Zsdxs/wmNmQRNRSw7XQQ+JB94=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=pauwells@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: [OSPF] LSA types in draft-ietf-ospf-mt-ospfv3-03 X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi Sina, Abhay, Looking at draft-ietf-ospf-mt-ospfv3-03 think there may be a problem in section 5 with the definition of a "T-bit". RFC 4970 section 5 has defined an IANA registry for OSPFv3 LSA function codes that defines 256-8175 as reserved, 8176-8183 as Experimental, and 8184-8191 vendor private. So, it would seem that any experimental or vendor defined LSA types would of necessity set the proposed T-bit. A lesser problem is that the LSA types proposed in the draft would fall into the Reserved range. Might I suggest that there isn't really a need for an explicitly defined T-bit, and that the new set of LSAs could equally well be assigned from the 13-255 "Unassigned" range instead. Regards, Paul _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 06 12:40:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITKP8-0001ZN-QJ; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:40:30 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITKP7-0001ZD-F3 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Received: from web56508.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([66.196.97.37]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITKP6-0004UG-23 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Received: (qmail 70853 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Sep 2007 16:40:27 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=mZxetESBme663+QEX5CxfY9KGuWVkkJTmEOkKWxWF2Pd+fCbOdsNLpP2UYi98dWlFkrmeBCnJ+8zw6rS+2aaPlGh9JzfGej31+WoIqOoOc6lph8AEUre+BdxZr+Ho/upTiW5Jz8zBE4EFoeIqPkIHlaFTxLaAJzFSCU3y/oG7Ys=; X-YMail-OSG: eniHoUYVM1k2dh5OIwrhucq0zB_naGAokVhFL0Li Received: from [122.164.242.176] by web56508.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:40:27 PDT Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:40:27 -0700 (PDT) From: sengottuvelan srirangan Subject: Re: [OSPF] Doubt in external path preference To: vpraveenkumar@huawei.com, ospf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <000c01c7f093$9ae44b60$6005120a@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <759489.69895.qm@web56508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 Cc: X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1383683407==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1383683407== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-808344658-1189096827=:69895" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-808344658-1189096827=:69895 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-675908144-1189096827=:69895" --0-675908144-1189096827=:69895 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Praveen, I hope the below section clarifies the doubt. RFC 2328 Sec, 11 There are four possible types of paths used to route traffic to the destination, listed here in decreasing order of preference: intra-area, inter-area, type 1 external or type 2 external. Intra-area paths indicate destinations belonging to one of the router's attached areas. Inter-area paths are paths to destinations in other OSPF areas. These are discovered through the examination of received summary-LSAs. AS external paths are paths to destinations external to the AS. These are detected through the examination of received AS-external-LSAs. Regards Sengottuvelan vpraveen wrote: Hi All, I have a doubt in “External path preferences” section (16.4.1) of RFC2328 Please consider the following topology: RTB is the ASBR; there are two paths to RTB from RTA - one via area 0 and the other through area 1. ASBR path to RTB will be installed in area 0 and area 1 (after examining E bit in router LSAs during SPF) Now, while examining type 5 LSAs originated by RTB (assuming RFC1583Compatiblity is disabled), only the non-backbone path (i.e. area 1) will be selected for external route installation, since non-backbone paths are preferred over backbone paths when RFC1583Compatibility is disabled. So effectively, this section gives the rules to select paths for external route calculation among exisiting ASBR paths and not for ASBR path calculation itself (i.e. on RTA, ASBR paths to RTB will exist in both areas, irrespective of the cost to the ASBR) . Please let me know if my understanding is correct. 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Hi Praveen,
 
I hope the below section clarifies the doubt.
 
RFC 2328 Sec, 11
 
        There are four possible types of paths used to route traffic to
        the destination, listed here in decreasing order of preference:
        intra-area, inter-area, type 1 external or type 2 external.
        Intra-area paths indicate destinations belonging to one of the
        router's attached areas.  Inter-area paths are paths to
        destinations in other OSPF areas.  These are discovered through
        the examination of received summary-LSAs.  AS external paths are
        paths to destinations external to the AS.  These are detected
        through the examination of received AS-external-LSAs.
 
Regards
Sengottuvelan

vpraveen <vpraveenkumar@huawei.com> wrote:
Hi All,
I have a doubt in “External path preferences” section (16.4.1) of RFC2328
Please consider the following topology:
 
 
RTB is the ASBR; there are two paths to RTB from RTA - one via area 0 and the other through area 1.
ASBR path to RTB will be installed in area 0 and area 1 (after examining E bit in router LSAs during SPF)
Now, while examining type 5 LSAs originated by RTB (assuming RFC1583Compatiblity is disabled),
only the non-backbone path (i.e. area 1) will be selected for external route installation, since non-backbone paths
are preferred over backbone paths when RFC1583Compatibility is disabled.
 
So effectively, this section gives the rules to select paths for external route calculation among exisiting ASBR paths
and not for ASBR path calculation itself (i.e. on RTA, ASBR paths to RTB will exist in both areas, irrespective of
the cost to the ASBR) .
Please let me know if my understanding is correct.
 
Regards
Praveen
 
 
**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
 
 This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! 
 
**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
 
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Answers - Check it out. --0-675908144-1189096827=:69895-- --0-808344658-1189096827=:69895 Content-Type: image/jpeg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Id: <1880538564000000@web56508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDAAoHBwgHBgoICAgLCgoLDhgQDg0N Dh0VFhEYIx8lJCIfIiEmKzcvJik0KSEiMEExNDk7Pj4+JS5ESUM8SDc9Pjv/ wAALCABNAMMBAREA/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL /8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEI I0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVW V1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ip qrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3 +Pn6/9oACAEBAAA/APZaKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKq6jfxaZZNdTK7gMkaIgG6R3 YIijOBkswGSQBnkgZNU5fEVuYLGSwtrnUm1CA3NvHbhFZoQFy/7xkAH7xOCc /N04OID4mdrs2ltoGqXE6QJNMiiGMxbmdAp8yRcnMT8rlSMEEgg1CvjW0liu Lu306+n021VJJr9BEIkRokm3bWcSEBHUkBCeoAJro6KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKydb0m51ieziW9e0tYGM7vCFMhlUjyxh1ZCoy7cjIZYyMYrMPh3ULfSl0xY LHVbW2nZrUXkrQyxqVBV1kjQiNkYyKoRBhSmCu0g0n8J6g9+Lq+0jRddJtI4 R/aM7FrfbJM21WaFy4CyIu84ZtmSMmix+HsVjbCTyrG51KzntZLK7khAYrDB DGUYkHaGMcn97bvDDLKK7aiiiuftdY1/UFmmstH05reO5ngRptSkR28uVoyS ogYDJQnGT1qb7V4p/wCgNpH/AINZf/kej7V4p/6A2kf+DWX/AOR6PtXin/oD aR/4NZf/AJHo+1eKf+gNpH/g1l/+R6k0vVNQudVvNO1GxtraW2ghnDW900yu sjSLj5o0wQYj69a1qKq6ncS2mlXdzAjySwwO6IkRlZmCkgBARuOe2RnpkVwe meIddvtVh0iPWoZEluYh9thKXO9HhuiwRxDEhwYFwQrAMCGLYKCyviLXhrV+ PtVs5ha6H9mofOnSOMP5Ti3WNXBbbGcvNtYPgYLoBoeC9av9RvtRs7u9hv47 eKGWK5imWZX3mQECRYolZR5Y6KcHcCxI2rT8GfZft2k/Y/J+1/2Q/wDbXk48 z7VmDH2jHPm5877/AM2fM967miiquo6jbaVZNeXjOsSsifJE0jFmYKoCqCSS zAYA71n/APCV6d/z7av/AOCa7/8AjVH/AAlenf8APtq//gmu/wD41R/wlenf 8+2r/wDgmu//AI1R/wAJXp3/AD7av/4Jrv8A+NUf8JXp3/Ptq/8A4Jrv/wCN Vp2V5BqFjBe2snmW9zEssT4I3KwyDg8jg96norF8Kf8AIIn/AOwlf/8ApXLW 1RRRWLa/8jvqn/YNs/8A0ZdVtUUUUUUUUUVi+K/+QRB/2ErD/wBK4q2qKKKK xfBv/IkaD/2Dbf8A9FrW1RWL4U/5BE//AGEr/wD9K5ap654v/sjXG0zOkQ7b aOfzNS1T7Lv3tIuFHltux5fJz/EKmj17VZ9Y0+0i0eGO3vrY3Stc3TRzRIvl Bw8XlkBwZQNu7B2nJFWrfxBFceJLjRRA4aFWIlJGGZViZxjsMXEWD3O/gYBb WrmZtG0rV/G+of2nplnfeVptp5f2mBZNmZLnONwOM4H5Vc/4Q3wt/wBC1pH/ AIAxf/E0f8Ib4W/6FrSP/AGL/wCJo/4Q3wt/0LWkf+AMX/xNH/CG+Fv+ha0j /wAAYv8A4mj/AIQ3wt/0LWkf+AMX/wATR/whvhb/AKFrSP8AwBi/+Jo/4Q3w t/0LWkf+AMX/AMTR/wAIb4W/6FrSP/AGL/4mj/hDfC3/AELWkf8AgDF/8TR/ whvhb/oWtI/8AYv/AImszX/DOgafZWt1ZaHp1rcR6lY7JYbSNHXN1EDggZHB I/GutoooorC8DxtH4F0JXmeUnT4W3OBkAoCBwBwAcDvgDJJya3aKxfCn/IIn /wCwlf8A/pXLUl74fiv7vUZpp3Vb60htx5YAeFo2lZZFY5wwMgIOPlKA/SYa bK+q2Ooz3CNLbWktu6pEVWRpGiYsMsdoBi6c/e68c5lt4OhtUs50vbk6hbzr cPcNNI0TyEnzmEBfy0MgaUcD5fMJHSujrFtf+R31T/sG2f8A6Muq2qKKKKKK KKKxfFf/ACCIP+wlYf8ApXFW1XBeKdLlvvE+pXcOn6XftZaXauYb7TTduy+b cFhEA64bAOB/EdoyvWrsWh6K3izQZ0gttQb+y5pFvpkSWWdo2tRHK0mPmbB4 b3OOtc54HitVfwu+m3mhSzGJftsWm2gS6VPsz5891kYsok2A5UAvtPBwK9Tr F8G/8iRoP/YNt/8A0WtbVFYvhT/kET/9hK//APSuWtqiiiuZml1WLxvqH9mW dnc50208z7TdtDt/eXOMbY3z39Me/a59q8U/9AbSP/BrL/8AI9H2rxT/ANAb SP8Away//I9H2rxT/wBAbSP/AAay/wDyPR9q8U/9AbSP/BrL/wDI9H2rxT/0 BtI/8Gsv/wAj0favFP8A0BtI/wDBrL/8j0favFP/AEBtI/8ABrL/API9H2rx T/0BtI/8Gsv/AMj0favFP/QG0j/way//ACPR9q8U/wDQG0j/AMGsv/yPWZr9 xr72Vqt7pmnQ251Kx3yQ6hJK4/0qLGFMKg847j+ldbRRRRWF4HlWbwLoToHA Gnwr86FTkIAeCBxkcHoRgjIINbtFczpd1qmkQXFo/hrUbj/TrqVZYZbbY6yT yOpG6YH7rDqBVz+3dR/6FPV/+/tp/wDH6P7d1H/oU9X/AO/tp/8AH6P7d1H/ AKFPV/8Av7af/H6P7d1H/oU9X/7+2n/x+maQL658R6jqNzpdzp8UtpbQRrcP EzOyPOzH927YGJF64rdoqrqd6um6Vd377AtrA8x3khcKpPJUMQOOwJ9j0rkL Xxb4gm1VdEe2s47/AO0xRyPMgQRrJDPIMpHNJ8y+SGwXG4NjCcPUx8X6tFdX V3Pp8MekxS3cSSysiAGASZbeJGd8mFsqIQQCTlgnzaHhjXtR1HUdR0zVLdIr qxWF2KqiECTfhSiyy4ICZyWBIYfKOC03ho3outchvr17ySHUFUOV2qoNtAxV F/hUFjgZJ9STkndoorC8YzRW2gpPPKkUUWoWLvI7BVRRdREkk9AB3p//AAmX hb/oZdI/8Dov/iqP+Ey8Lf8AQy6R/wCB0X/xVH/CZeFv+hl0j/wOi/8AiqP+ Ey8Lf9DLpH/gdF/8VR/wmXhb/oZdI/8AA6L/AOKo8G/8iRoP/YNt/wD0WtbV FFFFFFFFFFUrbRtKsvK+yaZZ2/k/6vyoFXZ9/pgcf6yT/vtvU0+PTNPi1GTU Y7G2S9mXZJcrEoldeOC2MkfKOPYelFlpmn6amywsba0XaE2wRKg2gswHA6Zd jj1Y+pqeOGKJ5HjiRGmbfIyqAXbAXJ9ThQM+gHpT6KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK/9k= --0-808344658-1189096827=:69895-- --===============1383683407== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1383683407==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 06 22:23:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITTVb-0004UN-2G; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:23:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITTVa-0004UH-Lo for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:23:46 -0400 Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com ([206.16.17.211]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITTVY-0003UM-Vt for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:23:46 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JNZ006077ZJ63@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.31]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JNZ0028M7ZGUD@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.24.1.6] (Forwarded-For: [121.246.17.226]) by szxmc03-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Fri, 07 Sep 2007 07:23:37 +0500 Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 07:23:37 +0500 From: "V.PraveenKumar 70795" Subject: Re: [OSPF] Doubt in external path preference In-reply-to: <759489.69895.qm@web56508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> To: sengottuvelan srirangan Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal References: <000c01c7f093$9ae44b60$6005120a@china.huawei.com> <759489.69895.qm@web56508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi Sengottuvelan, For the topology specified before, should RTA have an ASBR path to RTB in area 0 (when RFC1583Comp is disabled) Thanks & Regards Praveen ****************************************************************************************** This email and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! ***************************************************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: sengottuvelan srirangan Date: Thursday, September 6, 2007 10:10 pm Subject: Re: [OSPF] Doubt in external path preference > Hi Praveen, > > I hope the below section clarifies the doubt. > > RFC 2328 Sec, 11 > > There are four possible types of paths used to route > traffic to > the destination, listed here in decreasing order of > preference: intra-area, inter-area, type 1 external or type > 2 external. > Intra-area paths indicate destinations belonging to one of the > router's attached areas. Inter-area paths are paths to > destinations in other OSPF areas. These are discovered > through the examination of received summary-LSAs. AS > external paths are > paths to destinations external to the AS. These are detected > through the examination of received AS-external-LSAs. > > > Regards > Sengottuvelan > > vpraveen wrote: > Hi All, > I have a doubt in ?External path preferences? section (16.4.1) > of RFC2328 > Please consider the following topology: > > > RTB is the ASBR; there are two paths to RTB from RTA - one via > area 0 and the other through area 1. > ASBR path to RTB will be installed in area 0 and area 1 (after > examining E bit in router LSAs during SPF) > Now, while examining type 5 LSAs originated by RTB (assuming > RFC1583Compatiblity is disabled), > only the non-backbone path (i.e. area 1) will be selected for > external route installation, since non-backbone paths > are preferred over backbone paths when RFC1583Compatibility is > disabled. > So effectively, this section gives the rules to select paths for > external route calculation among exisiting ASBR paths > and not for ASBR path calculation itself (i.e. on RTA, ASBR > paths to RTB will exist in both areas, irrespective of > the cost to the ASBR) . > Please let me know if my understanding is correct. > > Regards > Praveen > > > > ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained > herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than > the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e- > mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email > immediately and delete it! > > > ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from > someone who knows. > Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From sykkn@texado.com Fri Sep 07 02:33:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITXP0-0007nx-Tl for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 02:33:14 -0400 Received: from [218.95.63.217] (helo=[218.95.63.217]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITXP0-000451-8G for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 02:33:14 -0400 Received: from [218.95.63.217] by mail.texado.com; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:31:15 +0800 Message-ID: <3302ffa4$3302ffa4$d93f5fda@sykkn> From: "Daphne Carlton" To: Subject: US $ 119.95 Viagra (Sildenafil) 50mg x 60 pills buy now Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:31:15 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 US $ 89.95 50mg x 30 pills http://chickglad.com From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 07 05:25:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITa58-0007Pk-At; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 05:24:54 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITa56-0007Pf-RX for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 05:24:53 -0400 Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.53]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITa54-0007qq-9E for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 05:24:52 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JNZ00FCWRF39I@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:23:27 +0800 (CST) Received: from M55527 ([10.111.12.79]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JNZ00HYMREXVK@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:23:26 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:23:17 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: 'OSPF List' Message-id: <00df01c7f130$b97930c0$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcfxMLkcF2CZJdkfS6OGbhLALeBWnA== X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 56d530dd2b9ddb285a3c7c12acee9803 Subject: [OSPF] Fw: I-D ACTION:draft-chen-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1585478316==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1585478316== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_LP0G0dN7qy1U+/ZkYSgEug)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_LP0G0dN7qy1U+/ZkYSgEug) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi folks, We have updated the I-Ds since IETF 69th in Chicago, where we received a lot of useful comments and suggestion. You could reach it by the following link: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extensi on-01.txt Compare to rev.00, the main changes in rev.01 are listed below: 1. Wording changes in several places; 2. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement: There is no OSPF adjacency running on the inter-AS link; 3. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number property of an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that the AS number sub-TLV is mandatory for an inter-AS TE link; 4. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a "proxy" advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link; 5. Enhance the Security section. Any feedback and comments are welcome! Best regards, Mach --Boundary_(ID_LP0G0dN7qy1U+/ZkYSgEug) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi folks,

 

We have updated the I-Ds since IETF 69th in Chicago, where we received a lot of useful comments and suggestion. You could reach it by the following link:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-extension-01.txt

 

Compare to rev.00, the main changes in rev.01 are listed below:

 

1. Wording changes in several places;

2. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement: There is no OSPF adjacency running on the inter-AS link;

3. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number property of an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that the AS number sub-TLV is mandatory for an inter-AS TE link;

4. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a "proxy" advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link;

5. Enhance the Security section.

 

Any feedback and comments are welcome!

Best regards,

Mach

 

--Boundary_(ID_LP0G0dN7qy1U+/ZkYSgEug)-- --===============1585478316== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1585478316==-- From huber@hutchinson.mel.net Fri Sep 07 11:06:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITfPL-00014j-2F for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:06:07 -0400 Received: from host150-88-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([79.0.88.150] helo=host106-86-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITfPH-0002ps-1S for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:06:06 -0400 Received: from mario-c29d51ac4 by hutchinson.mel.net with ASMTP id FBEB9CD9 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:06:15 +0200 Received: from mario-c29d51ac4 ([132.121.174.14]) by hutchinson.mel.net with ESMTP id 481A0056455F for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:06:15 +0200 Message-ID: <000701c7f160$9b4519e0$6a560857@marioc29d51ac4> From: "Mannen huber" To: Subject: regaraps Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:06:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F171.5ECDE9E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F171.5ECDE9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.harborol.com/ Hi bro huber When I looked in the mirror after every shower, I couldn=92t help but = wonder whether or not I was average. After doing some research online, I = realized that I was under-average =3D ( Hoan Star ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F171.5ECDE9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F171.5ECDE9E0-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 07 19:52:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITncD-0001R4-0h; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:51:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITncC-0001Qz-N6 for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:51:56 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITncB-0008K3-Gu for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:51:56 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,222,1186383600"; d="scan'208";a="214277786" Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Sep 2007 16:51:53 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l87NprjH015654; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:51:53 -0700 Received: from akr-lnx (akr-lnx.cisco.com [171.71.54.82]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l87NpmxK003338; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:51:48 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:51:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Abhay Roy To: Paul Wells In-Reply-To: <46E02714.4050007@cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <46E02714.4050007@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=999; t=1189209113; x=1190073113; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=akr@cisco.com; z=From:=20Abhay=20Roy=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20LSA=20types=20in=20draft-ietf-ospf-mt-ospfv3-03 |Sender:=20; bh=uhhdanYbDcVMtmvP1nuP3dnRoHVOpNGiDOSCfT820v8=; b=pPRZqpZS2yebS2i3Hzk7puhl0ezXPttkRyk1z52xUHiWjqjLbH860DwiPb7fWNdogPFCRiFL Gx5MF1YgmwAwUx2xhpclabfiHzzpYhxECvkYocZszVN+sFUhpwtr5XbY; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=akr@cisco.com; dkim=pass (sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: ospf@ietf.org, sina@force10netwroks.com Subject: [OSPF] Re: LSA types in draft-ietf-ospf-mt-ospfv3-03 X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Good point. We will fix this in the next rev. We still like the bit idea though, so that we can easily infer the well known function codes easily enough. Regards, -Abhay On 09/06/07-0500 at 11:13am, Paul Wells writes: > Hi Sina, Abhay, > > Looking at draft-ietf-ospf-mt-ospfv3-03 think there may be a problem in > section 5 with the definition of a "T-bit". > > RFC 4970 section 5 has defined an IANA registry for OSPFv3 LSA function codes > that defines 256-8175 as reserved, 8176-8183 as Experimental, and 8184-8191 > vendor private. So, it would seem that any experimental or vendor defined LSA > types would of necessity set the proposed T-bit. 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------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7F20B.6AD6C2D0-- From aswvmg@huertgen-family.de Sat Sep 08 10:57:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IU1k5-0006VZ-22; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:57:01 -0400 Received: from [89.142.60.72] (helo=huertgen-family.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IU1k1-00064U-RH; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:57:01 -0400 Message-ID: <1ddf01c7f27b$c3e78e20$5725fa34@aswvmg> Reply-To: "Tyler" From: "Tyler" To: "Chang" Cc: "Hyon Schmidt" , "Ernestine Kennedy" , "Nereida Alexander" Subject: Thank u for your help Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 00:52:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_7C6_7815_4561CC32.6C1CF4F2" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0622-2, 31.05.2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b5299d0955d21ceeb18e25a232290fec This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_7C6_7815_4561CC32.6C1CF4F2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_230_D7CB_ADA1DAFA.1FAAAEF6" ------=_NextPart_230_D7CB_ADA1DAFA.1FAAAEF6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chapter Summary Government branch coloem communicate Of stay The Democrac= y In America request Tyranny error smite arch Of The Majority I recapitulate stuck the substance put of light this chapter in a few wor= ds: The existence of frighten democracies is threate wash =5BFootnote l: = night swept A nearly peculiar reason contributes to detach the two last- = mentioned States from the cause o The laws of the United race States perf= orm sawed are extremely favorable to the division of property; on but a c= ause which =5BWhen the author shut visited America the locomotive narrow = and the railroad were screw scarcely invented, brake and not yet Montaigne stem said long ago: "Were I not to important follow the straigh= t road for lavatorial its dug straightness, I should foll Servants, tasty= stole on their part, are not safe averse to regard themselves in trodden= the same light; and they sometimes i hour =5BFootnote h: pencil The area= of the State of New York is frame 49,170 square miles. =5BSee kiss U. S.= census report of 1 =5BFootnote l: Part of the commerce of cushion let cl= oud the Mediterranean is already pull carried on by American vessels.=5D = The artisan readily understands bad these passions, wonderful for he hims= elf partakes in swim them: dislike in an aristocracy h unpack Daily use w= hich driving the Anglo-Americans make heap of the right of double associa= tion - Three kinds of political asso How the principle of head the encephalic sovereignty of the history peopl= e is to be understood rod -Impossibility of conceiving fall I might here = pause, without attempting mate to pass a judgment oil forsook on what I h= ave described. The extreme diff line Characteristics Which Distinguish T= he Federal cheat Constitution Of The oil United States Of slope America F= rom All The United States of America do not afford gun either basket the first or= the only rod war instance of confederate Stat No great change takes smite place in human dealt institutions without inv= olving amongst its causes umbrella spring the law of in nerve Since the = brass first settlement happily of the British genteel colonies, the numbe= r of inhabitants has about doubled ever Part III =5BFootnote really c: I= n cross famous New England the estates are exceedingly small, but they th= roat are rarely subjected to furt Corruption And sponge Vices spat Of The Rulers glue In A Democracy, And C= onsequent Effects stone Upon Public Morality trade hat A single fact will= suffice to forgot show the prodigious number rose of individuals who lea= ve New England, in th No sooner was the drum screw law of primogeniture a= bolished match than fortunes began to diminish, and need all the famili I= hold amused it exercise to be an impious and rest an execrable maxim tha= t, politically speaking, eye a people has a right t ------=_NextPart_230_D7CB_ADA1DAFA.1FAAAEF6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Chapter Summary Government branch coloem= communicate Of stay The Democracy In America request Tyranny error smite= arch Of The Majority
 
I recapitulate stuck the substance put o= f light this chapter in a few words: The existence of frighten democracie= s is threate wash =5BFootnote l: night swept A nearly peculiar reason con= tributes to detach the two last- mentioned States from the cause o T= he laws of the United race States perform sawed are extremely favorable t= o the division of property; on but a cause which =5BWhen the author = shut visited America the locomotive narrow and the railroad were screw sc= arcely invented, brake and not yet  
Montaigne stem said long ago: "Were I no= t to important follow the straight road for lavatorial its dug straightne= ss, I should foll Servants, tasty stole on their part, are not safe avers= e to regard themselves in trodden the same light; and they sometimes i ho= ur =5BFootnote h: pencil The area of the State of New York is frame 49,17= 0 square miles. =5BSee kiss U. S. census report of 1 =5BFootnote l: Part = of the commerce of cushion let cloud the Mediterranean is already pull ca= rried on by American vessels.=5D The artisan readily understands bad thes= e passions, wonderful for he himself partakes in swim them: dislike in an= aristocracy h unpack Daily use which driving the Anglo-Americans make he= ap of the right of double association - Three kinds of political asso
How the principle of head the encephalic= sovereignty of the history people is to be understood rod -Impossibility= of conceiving fall I might here pause, without attempting mate to pass a= judgment oil forsook on what I have described. The extreme diff &nb= sp;line Characteristics Which Distinguish The Federal cheat Constitution = Of The oil United States Of slope America From All
 
The United States of America do not affo= rd gun either basket the first or the only rod war instance of confederat= e Stat
No great change takes smite place in hum= an dealt institutions without involving amongst its causes umbrella sprin= g the law of in  nerve Since the brass first settlement happily= of the British genteel colonies, the number of inhabitants has about dou= bled ever Part III  =5BFootnote really c: In cross famous New E= ngland the estates are exceedingly small, but they throat are rarely subj= ected to furt
Corruption And sponge Vices spat Of The = Rulers glue In A Democracy, And Consequent Effects stone Upon Public Mora= lity trade hat A single fact will suffice to forgot show the prodigious n= umber rose of individuals who leave New England, in th No sooner was the = drum screw law of primogeniture abolished match than fortunes began to di= minish, and need all the famili I hold amused it exercise to be an impiou= s and rest an execrable maxim that, politically speaking, eye a people ha= s a right t
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The gipsy-girl was peck leaning back of on current the sofa, surrounded by a reading group of simpering dandies and blandly From ertinlygcy@mobilnet.gr.jp Wed Sep 12 04:42:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVNoE-00030R-6S; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 04:42:54 -0400 Received: from [116.17.253.60] (helo=mobilnet.gr.jp) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVNoA-0005We-Rt; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 04:42:53 -0400 Message-ID: <21fb01c7f550$1919ab90$daf373f4@ertinlygcy> From: "Teressa" To: "Hortense Bishop" Cc: "Easter Jackson" , "Cherry Hansen" , "Zackary Turner" , "Caitlyn" Subject: Thinking about you Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:17:57 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_91D_85BE_29771C26.85F0C6A8" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 841b5d6ad57042632519d2198f34cc8d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_91D_85BE_29771C26.85F0C6A8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_758_2D7D_5EDE8A9D.55506599" ------=_NextPart_758_2D7D_5EDE8A9D.55506599 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a elegantly book over of polemics. It famous wool reflects the dy= namics of that social life which is built entirely on I stocking said dig= estion chiropteran cry nothing, of course. "I fry hardly know. It's so di= fferent dog from what I expected. Yes, test the pack lake is beautiful, a= nd I like the s hunt thought More man Formidable event In Protracted Warfare "Good-aftern= oon, fold Mr. Burton," fiction force said the colonel, smiling and showin= g his cry teeth amiably. "I have great "But why? twist slippery worm low = I can't understand." Arthur clasped wool rhythm his hands greet in great = distress. "Yes, a heretic," he subtract repeated. "We were brought up tog= et The burst sounds of shouting buy back and laughter, of balneal the tinkli= ng of bells and trampling of feet, resounded from smoothly "I would rathe= r come with peripatetic you. You may want help. overtaken Do you think yo= u can carry him hurry so far? Isn't he ve As he passed against the bronze= stick statue of the consist "Four Moors," stung a man's figure emerged f= rom an old house on the "I don't mean exactly either. I believe a label s= eries of solemnly picture small satirical leaflets, in curly verse or pro= se, to "I tread don't care about his not liking me," he said one day writ= ing swore to Gemma by with an aggrieved air. "I don't lik But there is an= other inquisitively and more elementary criterion, one reply that servant= relates camp to plain conscientiousness in s spread Montanelli laughed. "Poor boy, copper what a misfortune! Well, fin= e withstood we are here for our own amusement, so there "It can't shade b= e helped these few days," said Riccardo; "we must expect noise grab at lo= ss Christmas flee time. What we Any army is in wink danger of wood being= conquered at the outset swum of a lay campaign, after a long peace; any = army w I have saw shown that in democratic armies, and in softly time of peace, = the rule of seniority number is plastic the supreme a Arthur went tight up to him. "I guess want to know," star he said in a si= t dull voice, "who it was that betrayed me." It was a soft spring night,= warm and vesical starlit. The weaved water lapped against forward the ca= reful stone walls of the basin Danilox picked up the story: That's tour q= uite true. B. breath stupid suggested writing string a letter to the insp= ector-gene join Montanelli adjustment drew one tiny hand worn across his= forehead. I geriatric see, gloated Burnande, every one a produce character enthusia= stic line in turn ! country "I am anxious about you. 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The last couple of revisions addressed comments raised by the IESG and by the IGP working group chairs, etc. This is a call to you for a further review of the I-D. We'll run with a two week deadline to 28th September. Many thanks, Adrian _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 13 17:43:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVwTA-0004oI-Qs; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:43:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVwT9-0004o6-F3 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:43:27 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVwT8-0008OQ-0I for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:43:27 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:43:24 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:43:24 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ospf-lite welcomes comments Thread-Index: Acf2TxxcrMp59sJcSOO7mCAMVyIQOA== From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Sep 2007 21:43:25.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CE30DC0:01C7F64F] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Subject: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thomas-hunter-reed-ospf-lite-00= .txt = =20 has recently been posted.=20 Please do feel free to comment, Many Thanks, Matthew R Thomas mrthom@essex.ac.uk _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 13 19:38:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyGB-0004H9-LS; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:38:11 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyGA-0004Gz-RK for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:38:10 -0400 Received: from smtpb.juniper.net ([207.17.137.119]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyGA-0007bl-Dc for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:38:10 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO magenta.juniper.net) ([172.17.27.123]) by smtpb.juniper.net with ESMTP/TLS/DES-CBC3-SHA; 13 Sep 2007 16:38:07 -0700 Received: from [172.16.12.13] (nimbus-sc.juniper.net [172.16.12.13]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id l8DNc6I83036; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkatz@juniper.net) In-Reply-To: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Katz Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:38:05 -0700 To: "Thomas, Matthew R" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org OK, I'll bite. I simply don't see the purpose of doing this. Anybody building a new implementation is going to have to do the full protocol until such time as this scheme achieves wide deployment, which is never going to happen. Therefore, there is not going to be any reduction in implementation complexity in the forseeable future. As far as runtime efficiencies go (CPU/network), they're going to be in the noise. As you point out, CPUs and network media have gotten orders of magnitude faster in 20 years, and OSPF simply doesn't tax networks in any meaningful way, and the changes offered here will not change that load in any meaningful way (actually it will *increase* both CPU and network load by getting rid of DRs.) Basically, the only argument in favor of this scheme would be a modest reduction in implementation complexity, but in reality you will greatly *increase* implementation complexity because there is no feasible way (IMHO) to ever implement *just* this scheme. Now we have to implement two slightly different schemes. This is not progress. I would not have an objection, at least in principle, to some new protocol that would eliminate some of the more baroque design choices in OSPF (those who know me have heard me rant for two decades on how stupid some of it is), but only if there is a *meaningful* improvement in functionality. Otherwise it seems like a waste of time. --Dave On Sep 13, 2007, at 2:43 PM, Thomas, Matthew R wrote: > Hi, > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thomas-hunter-reed-ospf- > lite-00.txt hunter-reed-ospf-lite-00.txt> > has recently been posted. > > Please do feel free to comment, > > Many Thanks, > > Matthew R Thomas > mrthom@essex.ac.uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 13 19:46:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyOZ-0003iI-Cv; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:46:51 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyOX-0003i9-Py for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:46:49 -0400 Received: from smtp808.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.68]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyOW-0007pr-S1 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:46:49 -0400 Received: (qmail 3602 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2007 23:46:47 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=P6j6dSuw9RKmgd5SO0Erwp0dXWnIBlUKcsIEPm5xavgVbLmhLdOng6ClW3y4g/nDbe0hgnxWsjW5oruUyKc4OTmLDDFjKoVXRhhuM4dQDxLFoEJdBLriKR1NqxP4ZpQci924gtGNchANlyOb5Xh+k5AA9p+mc9ueWdMAp8SNfR0= ; Received: from unknown (HELO DGYSNN2J) (matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com@82.23.39.251 with login) by smtp808.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2007 23:46:47 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: vtuLzB0VM1n.0G_p2YQM0zrp2s53cOrCrMUIab2Fu2BnQfa1jrXYNDguy5KT5fjopTlo75cBpWcfkXGISIyC_lt79XzCy.Cr7yLs_h7ZzLt9llIy Message-ID: <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Matthew Thomas" To: "Dave Katz" , "Thomas, Matthew R" References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:45:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Well in fact the DR LSA's only reduce complexity if you have a large number of routers on the ethernet. If you have under 5 then the traffic actually decreases. Now the DR LSA as you know is flooded through the whole area, so the DR saves locally, but then floods everrywhere, thus increasing the load. With todays VLANS, 5 routers per Lan is very reasonable. The traffic load from OSPF is absolutely negligable. On a 100 MB Ethernet it can be as low as 0.008 % even with 1000 routers in a single area. Simulations are not required as you can acually calculate the LSA sizes and loads based on the packet structure. So the arguments of N^2 actually do not compute. The arguments of having to support two protocols are valid. The implementation is made significantly easier. The whole design process can be removed. The removal of things like DR prevent costly analysis from design to design that usually end up with the same design.. I understand your comments though.. Matthew R Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Katz" To: "Thomas, Matthew R" Cc: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > OK, I'll bite. > > I simply don't see the purpose of doing this. Anybody building a new > implementation is going to have to do the full protocol until such time > as this scheme achieves wide deployment, which is never going to happen. > Therefore, there is not going to be any reduction in implementation > complexity in the forseeable future. > > As far as runtime efficiencies go (CPU/network), they're going to be in > the noise. As you point out, CPUs and network media have gotten orders > of magnitude faster in 20 years, and OSPF simply doesn't tax networks in > any meaningful way, and the changes offered here will not change that > load in any meaningful way (actually it will *increase* both CPU and > network load by getting rid of DRs.) > > Basically, the only argument in favor of this scheme would be a modest > reduction in implementation complexity, but in reality you will greatly > *increase* implementation complexity because there is no feasible way > (IMHO) to ever implement *just* this scheme. Now we have to implement > two slightly different schemes. This is not progress. > > I would not have an objection, at least in principle, to some new > protocol that would eliminate some of the more baroque design choices in > OSPF (those who know me have heard me rant for two decades on how stupid > some of it is), but only if there is a *meaningful* improvement in > functionality. Otherwise it seems like a waste of time. > > --Dave > > > On Sep 13, 2007, at 2:43 PM, Thomas, Matthew R wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thomas-hunter-reed-ospf- >> lite-00.txt > hunter-reed-ospf-lite-00.txt> >> has recently been posted. >> >> Please do feel free to comment, >> >> Many Thanks, >> >> Matthew R Thomas >> mrthom@essex.ac.uk >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSPF mailing list >> OSPF@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 13 20:15:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyqK-0007vx-Ba; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:15:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyqI-0007m3-Ju for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:15:30 -0400 Received: from smtp803.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVyqH-0002ph-0J for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:15:30 -0400 Received: (qmail 78890 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2007 00:15:27 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=ChVC6WH48RWg+UVxmnJcfpiBSSQDG7l/wTdDQg2jGG0Ejy2yqnItM78sMp7WhkN0YPaibV3RHFC+kh6nkwzYiswIw92ghbQSqN/MSkELlJ9cju585IlJBlB56ptIHznJUFzc+oaCGFcJ/GBGbVVgJivrHyQfs+BKQHUIXj2H150= ; Received: from unknown (HELO DGYSNN2J) (matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com@82.23.39.251 with login) by smtp803.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2007 00:15:27 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 5McfsXAVM1lL1Jbm7UzpOaFtdnlcIwQEQO6mOnJwRdc2.ZrddKiSn70nE78m48jCEml3DUrfMU_k2bj6rbzEcGfzTrTthPiOenY6ZFfGlySu8jOs Message-ID: <054401c7f664$34b35940$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Matthew Thomas" To: Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:14:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Subject: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1538812611==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1538812611== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0541_01C7F66C.961AD430" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0541_01C7F66C.961AD430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems that = the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices required are = sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special cases such as the = point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I would say that perhaps = this is the source of a lot of the frustration with this very effective = protocol? I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that it = would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final calculation = actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you need to get your = graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This is a fundamental = difference in the shape of the protocol. As scaling goes further with = projects such as hlphotnets the scalability of the protocol becomes as = you say both less and more important. A realisation that we are in 'the = noise' should surely allow the redesign without the argments of loading = CPU etc. Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its = relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation = simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn = requirement for the protocol. In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An open = source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome further = coments. Matthew R Thomas mrthom@essex.ac.uk ------=_NextPart_000_0541_01C7F66C.961AD430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would also like to point out the = following: In=20 OSPF V2 it seems that the graph algorithm was designed, and = then all=20 the vertices required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd = special=20 cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I would = say=20 that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the frustration with = this very=20 effective protocol?
 
I am assuming judgement call was = made, and=20 a reasonable one, that it would be simpler to have all the = ingredients of=20 the final calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you need to get your graph built. = Vertices=20 are created as needed. This is a fundamental difference in the shape of = the=20 protocol. As scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the=20 scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more = important. A=20 realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely allow the redesign = without=20 the argments of loading CPU etc. Loading / CPU is referred to in the = document to=20 nulify its relevance to change rather than a direct improvement.=20 Implmentation simplification and operation over different media is the = main=20 desgn requirement for the protocol.
 
In a sense this protocol is ideal for = the=20 enterprise market. An open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I = would=20 greatly welcome further coments.
 
Matthew R Thomas
mrthom@essex.ac.uk
 
------=_NextPart_000_0541_01C7F66C.961AD430-- --===============1538812611== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1538812611==-- From tmeoni@chaotec.com Fri Sep 14 10:20:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWC2I-00066o-0t for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:20:46 -0400 Received: from [220.87.30.226] (helo=[220.87.30.226]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWC2G-0007Vu-IS for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:20:45 -0400 Received: from [220.87.30.226] by smtp.secureserver.net; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:21:01 +0900 Message-ID: <01c7f6da$79f23b90$e21e57dc@tmeoni> From: "Clara Vance" To: Subject: 100mg x 30 pills US $ 3.33 Per Pill price Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:21:01 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Viagra 50mg x 60 pills US $ 119.95 price http://enterunit.com From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 14 11:30:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWD7E-0003zv-9y; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:29:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWD7D-0003wj-Fy for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:29:55 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWD7B-0000gK-Vs for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:29:55 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B519EC426; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12356-02; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [/???N???p??????$IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E092E9EC427; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <054401c7f664$34b35940$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> References: <054401c7f664$34b35940$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Message-Id: From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:28:24 -0400 To: Matthew Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0523329321==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============0523329321== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-1023107010 --Apple-Mail-1-1023107010 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hello Matthew, On Sep 13, 2007, at 8:14 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems > that the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices > required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special > cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I > would say that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the > frustration with this very effective protocol? > > I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that > it would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final > calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you > need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This > is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As > scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the > scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more > important. A realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely > allow the redesign without the argments of loading CPU etc. > Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its > relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation > simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn > requirement for the protocol. So I guess this would be the "less filling" argument :^). In all seriousness, I don't think there is a strong requirement for a simpler version of OSPF. Also, IMHO, if we were going go through the pain of developing a new version of OSPF, we'd change a lot more than simply subseting the old version. Thanks, Acee > > In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An > open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome > further coments. > > Matthew R Thomas > mrthom@essex.ac.uk > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --Apple-Mail-1-1023107010 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello = Matthew,=A0

On Sep 13, 2007, at 8:14 PM, Matthew = Thomas wrote:

I would also like to = point out the following: In OSPF=A0V2 it seems that the=A0graph = algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices required are sent out = on the wire. This includes some odd special cases such as the = point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I would say that=A0perhaps = this is the source of a lot of the frustration with this very effective = protocol?
=A0
I am assuming=A0judgement call = was made, and a=A0reasonable one, that it would be simpler to have all = the ingredients of the final calculation actually on the = wire.=A0Ospf-lite=A0only sends = what you need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. = This is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As = scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the scalability of = the protocol becomes as you say both less and more important. A = realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely allow the redesign = without the argments of loading CPU etc. Loading / CPU is referred to in = the document to nulify its relevance to change rather than a = direct=A0improvement. Implmentation simplification and operation over = different media is the main desgn requirement for the = protocol.

So I guess this would be = the "less filling" argument :^). In all seriousness, I don't think there = is a strong requirement for a simpler version of OSPF. Also, IMHO, if we = were going go through the pain of developing a new version of OSPF, we'd = change a lot more than simply subseting the old version.=A0

Thanks,
Acee
<= BR>
=A0
In a = sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An open source = link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome further = coments.

= --Apple-Mail-1-1023107010-- --===============0523329321== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0523329321==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 14 15:01:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWGQH-0006Y8-Nz; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:01:49 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWGQG-0006Y3-Vq for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:01:49 -0400 Received: from smtpb.juniper.net ([207.17.137.119]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWGQG-0000aa-5d for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:01:48 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO magenta.juniper.net) ([172.17.27.123]) by smtpb.juniper.net with ESMTP/TLS/DES-CBC3-SHA; 14 Sep 2007 12:01:46 -0700 Received: from [172.16.12.13] (nimbus-sc.juniper.net [172.16.12.13]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id l8EJ1ZI65666; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:01:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkatz@juniper.net) In-Reply-To: <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Katz Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:01:34 -0700 To: Matthew Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org On Sep 13, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > Well in fact the DR LSA's only reduce complexity if you have a > large number of routers on the ethernet. If you have under 5 then > the traffic actually decreases. > > Now the DR LSA as you know is flooded through the whole area, so > the DR saves locally, but then floods everrywhere, thus increasing > the load. With todays VLANS, 5 routers per Lan is very reasonable. > The traffic load from OSPF is absolutely negligable. On a 100 MB > Ethernet it can be as low as 0.008 % even with 1000 routers in a > single area. Simulations are not required as you can acually > calculate the LSA sizes and loads based on the packet structure. > > So the arguments of N^2 actually do not compute. The arguments of > having to support two protocols are valid. > > The implementation is made significantly easier. The whole design > process can be removed. The removal of things like DR prevent > costly analysis from design to design that usually end up with the > same design.. I understand your comments though.. > I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems > that the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices > required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special > cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I > would say that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the > frustration with this very effective protocol? > > I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that > it would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final > calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you > need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This > is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As > scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the > scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more > important. A realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely > allow the redesign without the argments of loading CPU etc. > Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its > relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation > simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn > requirement for the protocol. > > In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An > open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome > further coments. > > Matthew R Thomas All of this is theoretically true, but I really don't understand what the point is. It creates a tremendous amount of work for nonexistent gains. What is the *real* motivation for this proposal? I just don't get it. It appears to be entirely an academic exercise, and I don't have time for those. Given that the only tangible benefit is a minor reduction in implementation complexity, it's only a net gain for some implementor that is building a product that will operate *only* in a domain in which *only* this version of OSPF is being deployed. If such a market exists, they should form their own forum and go off into their corner and have fun with it (and then go out of business because they can't interoperate with the vast deployed base.) Further, the stuff you're removing is a tiny fraction of the complexity of a full implementation; even if such a market existed where a vendor could implement only this, the savings are utterly marginal. From the operator standpoint, there's almost no gain. If we're looking for "simple and stupid" in configuration, it would be trivial to do simplification as a CLI hack: "protocol ospf-enterprise/ interface foo/end". The config system sets up the area for you. Yes, the LSA database would be a little simpler, but with mature implementations that have worked for a decade or more I'd suspect that most operators don't spend a lot of time dissecting the LSA database, and there's almost 20 years experience in doing so. As for bringing up EIGRP, well, I had the honor of rewriting the implementation without the benefit of being able to change the broken design. You don't want to get me started there. Let's just say that I wouldn't cozy up to those letters. ;-) As an ironic aside, the place where OSPF failed to scale in practice were the crazy full-mesh L2 networks that were so popular in the late 90s; hundreds of neighbors creating O(N^3) information on a link failure, or O(N^4) information on a node failure (each packet is O(N) in size.) We got really good at scaling fixes as a result. If I were to take on an incompatible change in this protocol, I'd start with mechanisms that would allow fail-safe pruning of the flooding tree, and add flap-free soft refresh of the LSA database. But that's just me. --Dave _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 14 15:49:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHAj-00083N-42; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:49:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHAi-00083H-9V for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:49:48 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHAg-0000bs-Me for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:49:48 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:49:45 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:49:44 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Thread-Index: Acf3BDIQSwqaC+ZsRTiZK+86Ukw1pgAAiUIy References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: "Dave Katz" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Sep 2007 19:49:45.0210 (UTC) FILETIME=[66569DA0:01C7F708] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93e7fb8fef2e780414389440f367c879 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi Dave, =20 Most vendors have had trouble stabilising their code. I was implementing = the odd proteon, 6611's and Wellfleet /Bay /Nortel back in 1996 and it = was odd. Some companies today exist soley to help vendors achieve = stabilty. In terms of Open Source some implementations some have taken = 15 years and are still finalising for full commercial use. I would say = IMHO that after almost 20 years of this approach, perhaps an adjustment = needs to be made? =20 The protocol is complex and could be much simpler. I advocate a = simplification of this protocol. I believe it is time that we perhaps = tested what has really been happening. This will pay off in the long = run. Ospf-lite is not a forklift upgrade. Multiple instances could run = quite happily. In the case of customers connecting to MPLS networks = there are multiple instances of OSPF running anyway. Any of these could = be ospf-lite. I do agree with your view of EIGRP. However there was = wisdom in the area outlook on the protocol. =20 A link State protocol should be much simpler to implement. Routing a few = hundred thousand routes should not be such an onerous task. Our = scalability comes from very old impressions. Are areas ( not including = Internet route isolation) really required? Yet they are almost globally = employed. =20 I do appreciate your view though, =20 Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 20:01 To: Matthew Thomas Cc: Thomas, Matthew R; ospf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments On Sep 13, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > Well in fact the DR LSA's only reduce complexity if you have a=20 > large number of routers on the ethernet. If you have under 5 then=20 > the traffic actually decreases. > > Now the DR LSA as you know is flooded through the whole area, so=20 > the DR saves locally, but then floods everrywhere, thus increasing=20 > the load. With todays VLANS, 5 routers per Lan is very reasonable.=20 > The traffic load from OSPF is absolutely negligable. On a 100 MB=20 > Ethernet it can be as low as 0.008 % even with 1000 routers in a=20 > single area. Simulations are not required as you can acually=20 > calculate the LSA sizes and loads based on the packet structure. > > So the arguments of N^2 actually do not compute. The arguments of=20 > having to support two protocols are valid. > > The implementation is made significantly easier. The whole design=20 > process can be removed. The removal of things like DR prevent=20 > costly analysis from design to design that usually end up with the=20 > same design.. I understand your comments though.. > I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems=20 > that the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices=20 > required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special=20 > cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I=20 > would say that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the=20 > frustration with this very effective protocol? > > I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that=20 > it would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final=20 > calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you=20 > need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This=20 > is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As=20 > scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the=20 > scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more=20 > important. A realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely=20 > allow the redesign without the argments of loading CPU etc.=20 > Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its=20 > relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation=20 > simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn=20 > requirement for the protocol. > > In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An=20 > open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome=20 > further coments. > > Matthew R Thomas All of this is theoretically true, but I really don't understand what=20 the point is. It creates a tremendous amount of work for nonexistent=20 gains. What is the *real* motivation for this proposal? I just=20 don't get it. It appears to be entirely an academic exercise, and I=20 don't have time for those. Given that the only tangible benefit is a minor reduction in=20 implementation complexity, it's only a net gain for some implementor=20 that is building a product that will operate *only* in a domain in=20 which *only* this version of OSPF is being deployed. If such a=20 market exists, they should form their own forum and go off into their=20 corner and have fun with it (and then go out of business because they=20 can't interoperate with the vast deployed base.) Further, the stuff you're removing is a tiny fraction of the=20 complexity of a full implementation; even if such a market existed=20 where a vendor could implement only this, the savings are utterly=20 marginal. From the operator standpoint, there's almost no gain. If we're=20 looking for "simple and stupid" in configuration, it would be trivial=20 to do simplification as a CLI hack: "protocol ospf-enterprise/ interface foo/end". The config system sets up the area for you. =20 Yes, the LSA database would be a little simpler, but with mature=20 implementations that have worked for a decade or more I'd suspect=20 that most operators don't spend a lot of time dissecting the LSA=20 database, and there's almost 20 years experience in doing so. As for bringing up EIGRP, well, I had the honor of rewriting the=20 implementation without the benefit of being able to change the broken=20 design. You don't want to get me started there. Let's just say that=20 I wouldn't cozy up to those letters. ;-) As an ironic aside, the place where OSPF failed to scale in practice=20 were the crazy full-mesh L2 networks that were so popular in the late=20 90s; hundreds of neighbors creating O(N^3) information on a link=20 failure, or O(N^4) information on a node failure (each packet is O(N)=20 in size.) We got really good at scaling fixes as a result. If I were to take on an incompatible change in this protocol, I'd=20 start with mechanisms that would allow fail-safe pruning of the=20 flooding tree, and add flap-free soft refresh of the LSA database. =20 But that's just me. --Dave _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 14 15:56:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHGh-0001jB-71; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:55:59 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHGg-0001j4-Fk for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:55:58 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHGf-0002c2-S3 for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:55:58 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:55:56 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:55:30 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7DA@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Thread-Index: Acf25EnwxwBX9yzBRhKzrSa9GoCBMwAIGUyyAAEhO7o= References: <054401c7f664$34b35940$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D7@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Sep 2007 19:55:56.0113 (UTC) FILETIME=[4369EC10:01C7F709] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org =20 ________________________________ From: Thomas, Matthew R Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 20:33 To: Acee Lindem Cc:=20 Subject: RE: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Hi Acee, =20 I must disagree with your view of the 'less filling' argument. As the = primary link State protocol OSPF could be better. Although updated, = there had not been a re-evaluation of the design decisons made in almost = 20 years. The protocol has become heavier and heavier as additions have = been made. The cost of implementation is quite extreme. If you analyse = the protocol carefully you will see that it is a complete rewrite, and = more than a subsetting. =20 Reusing what has been implemented, in a similar way to Fast and Giga = Ethernet knocking out more comlex new protocols is sensible. It all = comes down perhaps with 'what to keep and what to throw'. 20 years seems = long enough to wait for a strip out and rebuild. The wheel does work = well after all.=20 =20 Areas block mobile applications and complexities reduce the ability of = lighter mobile implementations.=20 =20 I hope that people get a chance to look at some of the details, =20 Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com] Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 16:28 To: Matthew Thomas Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Hello Matthew, =20 On Sep 13, 2007, at 8:14 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems that = the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices required are = sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special cases such as the = point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I would say that perhaps = this is the source of a lot of the frustration with this very effective = protocol? =20 I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that it = would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final calculation = actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you need to get your = graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This is a fundamental = difference in the shape of the protocol. As scaling goes further with = projects such as hlphotnets the scalability of the protocol becomes as = you say both less and more important. A realisation that we are in 'the = noise' should surely allow the redesign without the argments of loading = CPU etc. Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its = relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation = simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn = requirement for the protocol. So I guess this would be the "less filling" argument :^). In all = seriousness, I don't think there is a strong requirement for a simpler = version of OSPF. Also, IMHO, if we were going go through the pain of = developing a new version of OSPF, we'd change a lot more than simply = subseting the old version.=20 Thanks, Acee =20 In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An open = source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome further = coments. =20 Matthew R Thomas mrthom@essex.ac.uk =20 _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 14 16:06:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHQb-000282-AC; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:06:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHQZ-00027m-GJ for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:06:11 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWHQY-0000wP-38 for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:06:11 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:06:09 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:04:38 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7DB@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Thread-Index: Acf3BDIQSwqaC+ZsRTiZK+86Ukw1pgAAiUIyAAEI9fA= References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Sep 2007 20:06:09.0020 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0BC1BC0:01C7F70A] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0770535483960d190d4a0d020e7060bd X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org =20 Dave, =20 In terms of shelling a CLI hack, the most major change to the protocol = is a unified network type, which of course is QUITE unshellable.. :o) = (section 2) =20 Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Thomas, Matthew R Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 20:49 To: Dave Katz Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: RE: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Hi Dave, =20 Most vendors have had trouble stabilising their code. I was implementing = the odd proteon, 6611's and Wellfleet /Bay /Nortel back in 1996 and it = was odd. Some companies today exist soley to help vendors achieve = stabilty. In terms of Open Source some implementations some have taken = 15 years and are still finalising for full commercial use. I would say = IMHO that after almost 20 years of this approach, perhaps an adjustment = needs to be made? =20 The protocol is complex and could be much simpler. I advocate a = simplification of this protocol. I believe it is time that we perhaps = tested what has really been happening. This will pay off in the long = run. Ospf-lite is not a forklift upgrade. Multiple instances could run = quite happily. In the case of customers connecting to MPLS networks = there are multiple instances of OSPF running anyway. Any of these could = be ospf-lite. I do agree with your view of EIGRP. However there was = wisdom in the area outlook on the protocol. =20 A link State protocol should be much simpler to implement. Routing a few = hundred thousand routes should not be such an onerous task. Our = scalability comes from very old impressions. Are areas ( not including = Internet route isolation) really required? Yet they are almost globally = employed. =20 I do appreciate your view though, =20 Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 20:01 To: Matthew Thomas Cc: Thomas, Matthew R; ospf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments On Sep 13, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > Well in fact the DR LSA's only reduce complexity if you have a=20 > large number of routers on the ethernet. If you have under 5 then=20 > the traffic actually decreases. > > Now the DR LSA as you know is flooded through the whole area, so=20 > the DR saves locally, but then floods everrywhere, thus increasing=20 > the load. With todays VLANS, 5 routers per Lan is very reasonable.=20 > The traffic load from OSPF is absolutely negligable. On a 100 MB=20 > Ethernet it can be as low as 0.008 % even with 1000 routers in a=20 > single area. Simulations are not required as you can acually=20 > calculate the LSA sizes and loads based on the packet structure. > > So the arguments of N^2 actually do not compute. The arguments of=20 > having to support two protocols are valid. > > The implementation is made significantly easier. The whole design=20 > process can be removed. The removal of things like DR prevent=20 > costly analysis from design to design that usually end up with the=20 > same design.. I understand your comments though.. > I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems=20 > that the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices=20 > required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special=20 > cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I=20 > would say that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the=20 > frustration with this very effective protocol? > > I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that=20 > it would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final=20 > calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you=20 > need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This=20 > is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As=20 > scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the=20 > scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more=20 > important. A realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely=20 > allow the redesign without the argments of loading CPU etc.=20 > Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its=20 > relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation=20 > simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn=20 > requirement for the protocol. > > In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An=20 > open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome=20 > further coments. > > Matthew R Thomas All of this is theoretically true, but I really don't understand what=20 the point is. It creates a tremendous amount of work for nonexistent=20 gains. What is the *real* motivation for this proposal? I just=20 don't get it. It appears to be entirely an academic exercise, and I=20 don't have time for those. Given that the only tangible benefit is a minor reduction in=20 implementation complexity, it's only a net gain for some implementor=20 that is building a product that will operate *only* in a domain in=20 which *only* this version of OSPF is being deployed. If such a=20 market exists, they should form their own forum and go off into their=20 corner and have fun with it (and then go out of business because they=20 can't interoperate with the vast deployed base.) Further, the stuff you're removing is a tiny fraction of the=20 complexity of a full implementation; even if such a market existed=20 where a vendor could implement only this, the savings are utterly=20 marginal. From the operator standpoint, there's almost no gain. If we're=20 looking for "simple and stupid" in configuration, it would be trivial=20 to do simplification as a CLI hack: "protocol ospf-enterprise/ interface foo/end". The config system sets up the area for you. =20 Yes, the LSA database would be a little simpler, but with mature=20 implementations that have worked for a decade or more I'd suspect=20 that most operators don't spend a lot of time dissecting the LSA=20 database, and there's almost 20 years experience in doing so. As for bringing up EIGRP, well, I had the honor of rewriting the=20 implementation without the benefit of being able to change the broken=20 design. You don't want to get me started there. Let's just say that=20 I wouldn't cozy up to those letters. ;-) As an ironic aside, the place where OSPF failed to scale in practice=20 were the crazy full-mesh L2 networks that were so popular in the late=20 90s; hundreds of neighbors creating O(N^3) information on a link=20 failure, or O(N^4) information on a node failure (each packet is O(N)=20 in size.) We got really good at scaling fixes as a result. If I were to take on an incompatible change in this protocol, I'd=20 start with mechanisms that would allow fail-safe pruning of the=20 flooding tree, and add flap-free soft refresh of the LSA database. =20 But that's just me. --Dave _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From mheilman@calypsogems.com Sat Sep 15 08:41:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWWy6-0005wd-SO for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:41:50 -0400 Received: from [87.204.123.2] (helo=gate.krotoszyn.kaskada.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWWy6-00044M-CA for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:41:50 -0400 Received: from [87.204.123.2] by mx5.biz.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:41:50 +0100 Message-ID: <01c7f795$c9497210$027bcc57@mheilman> From: "Lakisha Goldstein" To: Subject: Price for 50mg x 10 pills $6.00 per pill Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:41:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Viagra (Sildenafil) 100mg x 90 pills US $ 1.78 Per Pill buy now http://browndraw.com From jakc.Nicdao@HCM.COM.SG Sun Sep 16 15:01:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWzMf-00036X-Gk for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:01:05 -0400 Received: from [151.71.196.215] (helo=[151.71.133.79]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWzMe-00021d-QA for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:01:05 -0400 Received: from acer-eec2e0702c by HCM.COM.SG with ASMTP id 1E34B2EE for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:01:16 +0200 Received: from acer-eec2e0702c ([169.169.199.73]) by HCM.COM.SG with ESMTP id B743E5A077CA for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:01:16 +0200 Message-ID: <000501c7f893$eb57a8a0$4f854797@acereec2e0702c> From: "jakc Nicdao" To: Subject: evirdeva Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:00:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F8A4.AEE078A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F8A4.AEE078A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://crumpe.com/ Wazzup ospf-archive Cure and prevent impotence - Temporary impotence will be a thing of the = past! jakc Nicdao ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F8A4.AEE078A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F8A4.AEE078A0-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 17 02:05:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9hm-0003M8-MP; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:03:34 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9hm-0003Ls-04 for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:03:34 -0400 Received: from [164.164.171.210] (helo=mail.india.ba-sys.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9hl-0001yZ-BC for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:03:33 -0400 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:33:34 +0530 Message-ID: <1C1A7A0BABA3884CA99E9136D64543CA38070D@scorpion.india.ba-sys.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Shall we install Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area thread-index: Acf48Hrl+JGLPov+T0KX9rM+B+/2Ng== From: "Jishnu Banerjee" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f Subject: [OSPF] Shall we install Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1483242743==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1483242743== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7F8F0.7AD2B731" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F8F0.7AD2B731 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Got a quick doubt, I have a router is an ASBR having a single non-backbone area (network-type and link-type being p2p), if the Interface State-Machine holds a DOWN state [as a result the Area becomes INACTIVE], then shall ospf still hold Type-5 LSA ? Its known that it will hold Rtr LSA with Link Count to 0, but I have not been able to get any distinct explaination regarding Type-5 LSA from the RFC. IF I have overlooked or missed out, then please request to guide me through. =20 Regards, Jishnu ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F8F0.7AD2B731 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

Got a quick doubt, I have a router is an ASBR having = a single non-backbone area (network-type and link-type being p2p), if the = Interface State-Machine holds a DOWN state [as a result the Area becomes = INACTIVE], then shall ospf still hold Type-5 LSA ? Its known that it will hold Rtr LSA = with Link Count to 0, but I have not been able to get any distinct = explaination regarding Type-5 LSA from the RFC. IF I have overlooked or missed out, = then please request to guide me through.

 

Regards,

Jishnu

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F8F0.7AD2B731-- --===============1483242743== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1483242743==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 17 02:23:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9zN-00005D-Kq; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:21:45 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9zM-000058-A0 for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:21:44 -0400 Received: from [164.164.171.210] (helo=mail.india.ba-sys.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9zL-0002TJ-D3 for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:21:44 -0400 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [OSPF] Shall we install Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:51:44 +0530 Message-ID: <1C1A7A0BABA3884CA99E9136D64543CA380715@scorpion.india.ba-sys.com> In-Reply-To: <1C1A7A0BABA3884CA99E9136D64543CA38070D@scorpion.india.ba-sys.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Shall we install Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area thread-index: Acf48Hrl+JGLPov+T0KX9rM+B+/2NgAAiPwg References: <1C1A7A0BABA3884CA99E9136D64543CA38070D@scorpion.india.ba-sys.com> From: "Jishnu Banerjee" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a743e34ab8eb08259de9a7307caed594 X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1987005109==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1987005109== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7F8F3.04D7073D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F8F3.04D7073D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It makes sense to have Type-5 LSA in OSPF Dbase, reason being ASBR behavior is in the whole router itself, which will effect all attached areas and thus in case multiple areas if ALL but one is active, then still OSPF Dbase holds Type-5 LSA. But when it comes to "single attached area", which again is NON-active, then does that still push Type-5 to OSPF Dbase. =20 -jishnu =20 ________________________________ From: Jishnu Banerjee [mailto:jishnub@india.ba-sys.com]=20 Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:34 AM To: ospf@ietf.org Subject: [OSPF] Shall we install Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area =20 Hi All, Got a quick doubt, I have a router is an ASBR having a single non-backbone area (network-type and link-type being p2p), if the Interface State-Machine holds a DOWN state [as a result the Area becomes INACTIVE], then shall ospf still hold Type-5 LSA ? Its known that it will hold Rtr LSA with Link Count to 0, but I have not been able to get any distinct explaination regarding Type-5 LSA from the RFC. IF I have overlooked or missed out, then please request to guide me through. =20 Regards, Jishnu ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F8F3.04D7073D Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It makes sense to have Type-5 LSA = in OSPF Dbase, reason being ASBR behavior is in the whole router itself, which = will effect all attached areas and thus in case multiple areas if ALL but one = is active, then still OSPF Dbase holds Type-5 LSA. But when it comes to = “single attached area”, which again is NON-active, then does that still = push Type-5 to OSPF Dbase.

 

-jishnu

=

 

From: = Jishnu Banerjee = [mailto:jishnub@india.ba-sys.com]
Sent: Monday, September = 17, 2007 11:34 AM
To: ospf@ietf.org
Subject: [OSPF] Shall we = install Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area

 

Hi All,

Got a quick doubt, I have a router is an ASBR having = a single non-backbone area (network-type and link-type being p2p), if the Interface State-Machine holds a DOWN state [as a result the Area becomes INACTIVE], then shall ospf still hold Type-5 LSA ? Its known that it = will hold Rtr LSA with Link Count to 0, but I have not been able to get any = distinct explaination regarding Type-5 LSA from the RFC. IF I have overlooked or = missed out, then please request to guide me = through.

 

Regards,

Jishnu

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F8F3.04D7073D-- --===============1987005109== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1987005109==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 17 06:20:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXDgN-0006oN-Dm; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:18:23 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXDgM-0006if-JX for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:18:22 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXDgL-0001DA-U5 for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:18:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C56455B85A; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 03:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10257-07; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 03:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [*2??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDCE55B859; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 03:18:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1C1A7A0BABA3884CA99E9136D64543CA380715@scorpion.india.ba-sys.com> References: <1C1A7A0BABA3884CA99E9136D64543CA38070D@scorpion.india.ba-sys.com> <1C1A7A0BABA3884CA99E9136D64543CA380715@scorpion.india.ba-sys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] Shall we install Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:16:53 -0400 To: "Jishnu Banerjee" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 200d029292fbb60d25b263122ced50fc Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1392827616==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1392827616== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5--883867303 --Apple-Mail-5--883867303 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Jishnu, The OSPF specification leaves local redistribution to the =20 implementation. Having said that, I certainly not have it triggered =20 on whether or not you have any UP OSPF interfaces. Hope this Helps, Acee On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:21 AM, Jishnu Banerjee wrote: > It makes sense to have Type-5 LSA in OSPF Dbase, reason being ASBR =20 > behavior is in the whole router itself, which will effect all =20 > attached areas and thus in case multiple areas if ALL but one is =20 > active, then still OSPF Dbase holds Type-5 LSA. But when it comes =20 > to =93single attached area=94, which again is NON-active, then does =20= > that still push Type-5 to OSPF Dbase. > > > > -jishnu > > > > From: Jishnu Banerjee [mailto:jishnub@india.ba-sys.com] > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:34 AM > To: ospf@ietf.org > Subject: [OSPF] Shall we install Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area > > > > Hi All, > > Got a quick doubt, I have a router is an ASBR having a single non-=20 > backbone area (network-type and link-type being p2p), if the =20 > Interface State-Machine holds a DOWN state [as a result the Area =20 > becomes INACTIVE], then shall ospf still hold Type-5 LSA ? Its =20 > known that it will hold Rtr LSA with Link Count to 0, but I have =20 > not been able to get any distinct explaination regarding Type-5 LSA =20= > from the RFC. IF I have overlooked or missed out, then please =20 > request to guide me through. > > > > Regards, > > Jishnu > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --Apple-Mail-5--883867303 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Hi Jishnu,
The OSPF = specification leaves local redistribution to the implementation. Having = said that, I certainly not have it triggered on whether or not you have = any UP OSPF interfaces.=A0
Hope this = Helps,
Acee=A0

On Sep 17, 2007, at = 2:21 AM, Jishnu Banerjee wrote:

It makes sense to have Type-5 LSA = in OSPF Dbase, reason being ASBR behavior is in the whole router itself, = which will effect all attached areas and thus in case multiple areas if = ALL but one is active, then still OSPF Dbase holds Type-5 LSA. But when = it comes to =93single attached area=94, which again is NON-active, then = does that still push Type-5 to OSPF = Dbase.

=A0

-jishnu

<= P class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0

=

From: Jishnu Banerjee [mailto:jishnub@india.ba-sys.com]
Sent: Monday, = September 17, 2007 11:34 AM
To: ospf@ietf.org
Subject: [OSPF] Shall we install = Type-5 LSA in a non-Active Area

=A0

Hi = All,

Got a = quick doubt, I have a router is an ASBR having a single non-backbone = area (network-type and link-type being p2p), if the Interface = State-Machine holds a DOWN state [as a result the Area becomes = INACTIVE], then shall ospf still hold Type-5 LSA ? Its known that it = will hold Rtr LSA with Link Count to 0, but I have not been able to get = any distinct explaination regarding Type-5 LSA from the RFC. IF I have = overlooked or missed out, then please request to guide me = through.

=A0

Regards,

Jishnu

=
OSPF mailing list
=

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You will truly be amazed at the = results.
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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F958.BEADADC0-- From justine.Kates@zkf.co.uk Mon Sep 17 16:48:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXNVn-0003XA-QG for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:48:07 -0400 Received: from [194.116.89.19] (helo=[194.116.89.19]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXNVd-0003sI-LU for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:47:58 -0400 Received: from privato-yqt4x9s ([113.189.122.155] helo=privato-yqt4x9s) by [194.116.89.19] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1hFcsx-000CWN-LY for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:48:02 +0200 Message-ID: <000501c7f96b$fdde4e10$135974c2@privatoyqt4x9s> From: "justine Kates" To: Subject: kasojens Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:47:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F97C.C1671E10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F97C.C1671E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://fyjiao.com/ regards ospf-archive Like millions of other males, I was not too happy with my penis size justine Kates ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F97C.C1671E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F97C.C1671E10-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 18 07:00:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXajs-0004Zn-5U; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:55:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXajr-0004Xm-IW for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:55:31 -0400 Received: from [164.164.171.210] (helo=mail.india.ba-sys.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXajh-0003oY-1b for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:55:26 -0400 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:25:11 +0530 Message-ID: <1C1A7A0BABA3884CA99E9136D64543CA38080F@scorpion.india.ba-sys.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: non-zero forwarding address thread-index: Acf54mKe8YnIEoX9TP2ImwUP+LEW3g== From: "Jishnu Banerjee" To: "Acee Lindem" X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: [OSPF] non-zero forwarding address X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0775890831==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0775890831== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7F9E2.622B62E5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F9E2.622B62E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a doubt regarding forwarding address in Type-5 LSAs. Should it be non-zero when the connected network type is non-broadcast (eg p2p,p2mp or even nbma) ? RFC does not specify when forwarding address field should be populated. If I have overlooked the RFC then please do point it out. =20 Regards, Jishnu ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F9E2.622B62E5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have a doubt regarding forwarding address in Type-5 = LSAs. Should it be non-zero when the connected network type is non-broadcast = (eg p2p,p2mp or even nbma) ? RFC does not specify when forwarding address = field should be populated. If I have overlooked the RFC then please do point it = out.

 

Regards,

Jishnu

------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F9E2.622B62E5-- --===============0775890831== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0775890831==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 18 08:14:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXbwy-0000fK-96; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:13:08 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXbwq-0000VO-Ky for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:13:00 -0400 Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.7]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXbwo-0001Kx-BH for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:13:00 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOK000J2CKDNE@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:12:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.18]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOK005RPCKBKO@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:12:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from p709321533 ([10.18.4.174]) by szxml03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JOK007SPCK4AH@szxml03-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:12:11 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:41:50 +0530 From: sinbad Subject: RE":[OSPF] non-zero forwarding address To: 'Jishnu Banerjee' Message-id: <00cf01c7f9ed$1bb87fb0$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: Acf57RdjEUqvhHfSTty5pK9054dBbg== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fa73aab95d4e08c20fe6f070e26fc69b Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0383308832==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0383308832== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_yftJbtLvtaHB5tXlAiop4A)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_yftJbtLvtaHB5tXlAiop4A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Forwarding address only makes sense when the network type is broadcast. A ---| BGP |----- X B ---| | C ----| Consider the above network (took from RFC section 12.4.4.1).Suppose RTA is importing routes, all the traffic for these routes will go through RTA (Even for RTB and RTC).Clearly for RTB and RTC this will add one extra hop. So RTA keeps the forwarding address as RTX address. So that RTB and RTC can directly foward the packets to RTX and saving one extra hop. Clearly if it is a p2p link , there is no use of putting forwarding address. thanks sinbad _____ From: Jishnu Banerjee [mailto:jishnub@india.ba-sys.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 4:25 PM To: Acee Lindem Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: [OSPF] non-zero forwarding address I have a doubt regarding forwarding address in Type-5 LSAs. Should it be non-zero when the connected network type is non-broadcast (eg p2p,p2mp or even nbma) ? RFC does not specify when forwarding address field should be populated. If I have overlooked the RFC then please do point it out. Regards, Jishnu --Boundary_(ID_yftJbtLvtaHB5tXlAiop4A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Forwarding address only makes sense when the network type is broadcast.

  A ---| BGP

        |----- X

  B ---|

        |

 C ----|

               

 

Consider the above network (took from RFC section 12.4.4.1).Suppose RTA is importing routes, all the traffic for these routes

will go through RTA (Even for RTB and RTC).Clearly for RTB and RTC this will add one extra hop. So RTA keeps the forwarding address as RTX address.

So that RTB and RTC can directly foward the packets to RTX and saving one extra hop. Clearly if it is a p2p link , there is no use of putting forwarding address.

 

thanks

sinbad

 

From: Jishnu Banerjee [mailto:jishnub@india.ba-sys.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 4:25 PM
To: Acee Lindem
Cc: ospf@ietf.org
Subject: [OSPF] non-zero forwarding address

 

I have a doubt regarding forwarding address in Type-5 LSAs. Should it be non-zero when the connected network type is non-broadcast (eg p2p,p2mp or even nbma) ? RFC does not specify when forwarding address field should be populated. If I have overlooked the RFC then please do point it out.

 

Regards,

Jishnu

 

--Boundary_(ID_yftJbtLvtaHB5tXlAiop4A)-- --===============0383308832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0383308832==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 18 09:05:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXcjm-00043f-F3; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:03:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXcjl-00043Y-Kw for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:03:33 -0400 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXcjj-0006Rm-V3 for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:03:33 -0400 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id d21so1382991nfb for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:03:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=VYkbhzDvggTwQGiRskbkFAmn9uRdgeHbhmqPjtDnseA=; b=Uq/PlIoz48y5EtbF5kCmBauQcdKep2DaLwBOfoOizlFXe9VdOH/UJOdA+uFh//X4vyEW5dUCYnW07W5exd26nfDOBQqXuXg7xkhFdSgnDzl79deP50MB1o5OlC6dJNDi3FwaEJJpRv8gUQhidtsQOd4CdUqKF5uUcYCXoyvsOD0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=JVNDrzZzQfyDzdlEv72knbJLIw1XFCXjwlG+TdIOmghdgNcUGC2x5jivHdfpvP47aC+rDVwqCwnK0d5tPKOaDiahepd33eC8WbapoiUiQOtmO1QOAlM9lrws3OGfWuaMAWsULbmts4XskAE+RFJNx0q2mmU67oZHZDd7zoH9dqM= Received: by 10.86.93.17 with SMTP id q17mr4625755fgb.1190120606125; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.91.2 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40af80ad0709180603i4e1ea4e5i6a5ec9e14c23ecc8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:03:26 +0200 From: "Alex Gondwe" To: ospf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Subject: [OSPF] new member X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2056362024==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============2056362024== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1298_24846459.1190120606128" ------=_Part_1298_24846459.1190120606128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello, all, I have subscribed to this working group hoping to gain more understanding and probably contribute. I would like to know how I can quickly get up to speed so that I can properly follow the conversations and eventually make meaningful contributions. I have used bgp and am very much interested in pursuing it further. presently I do not know any person that I could establish a relationship with to help me in this area. I live in Malawi, Central Africa. Your assistance will be greatly appreciated. You can contact me directly off the list. -- Alex G. G. Gondwe Data Communication Baobab Health Partnership P.O. Box 149 Lilongwe Malawi Tel: +265 1 750 600 Cel: +265 8 519 510 / +265 9 519 510 Email: alex.gondwe@gmail.com http://mwizakwacha.blogspot.com Web: http://www.baobabhealth.org ------=_Part_1298_24846459.1190120606128 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello, all,

I have subscribed to this working group hoping to gain more understanding and probably contribute. I would like to know how I can quickly get up to speed so that I can properly follow the conversations and eventually make meaningful contributions. I have used bgp and am very much interested in pursuing it further.

presently I do not know any person that I could establish a relationship with to help me in this area. I live in Malawi, Central Africa.

Your assistance will be greatly appreciated. You can contact me directly off the list.

--
Alex G. G. Gondwe
Data Communication
Baobab Health Partnership
P.O. Box 149
Lilongwe
Malawi
Tel: +265 1 750 600
Cel: +265 8 519 510 / +265 9 519 510
Email: alex.gondwe@gmail.com
http://mwizakwacha.blogspot.com
Web: http://www.baobabhealth.org ------=_Part_1298_24846459.1190120606128-- --===============2056362024== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============2056362024==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 18 09:05:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXckw-0004WK-E5; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:04:46 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXckv-0004WD-2u for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:04:45 -0400 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.187]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXckt-0006T4-Ol for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:04:45 -0400 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id d21so1383290nfb for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:04:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=fUQbvwKVXqc47tz5uH/rSYhiMjeTdPXFUtt/ppZOdNE=; b=N3nxEMbLCu1KMxMLvJnh5ydxQUyWLcBmy17kMsivfafv7h44HY1VfXzr7tROSb0RjUNKfBfpWkr+Yr7AworskgQKK09jAdjJ/0GNx5MdcPLh8Vds2UhaVPdDLfYOYykdvbFDr5dHYHJJ/+lRUwBczST76OF7Tt7BAZOnivKy2PU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=GdtN8nyt4L99azQRyX2Cg0WqkGLsdHtFhlxnH5Zm2M0wPG5He9RfhhBw8I0qzwMma3ReH0tjqDl1FOta2wgf+rqnvokaAU/+maK73cETvM/QC1MjXmWcLq4A5I1+N8EWnfpGZmrILytnSJzWsPJ6TJZCE5HF/IAF5LcxZi4wcKQ= Received: by 10.86.4.2 with SMTP id 2mr4615320fgd.1190120679763; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.91.2 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40af80ad0709180604w1e2b382y640c3195a03952c0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:04:39 +0200 From: "Alex Gondwe" To: ospf@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <40af80ad0709180603i4e1ea4e5i6a5ec9e14c23ecc8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <40af80ad0709180603i4e1ea4e5i6a5ec9e14c23ecc8@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Subject: [OSPF] Re: new member X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1907112301==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1907112301== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1301_16438179.1190120679754" ------=_Part_1301_16438179.1190120679754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry I meant OSPF and not BGP On 9/18/07, Alex Gondwe wrote: > > Hello, all, > > I have subscribed to this working group hoping to gain more understanding > and probably contribute. I would like to know how I can quickly get up to > speed so that I can properly follow the conversations and eventually make > meaningful contributions. I have used bgp and am very much interested in > pursuing it further. > > presently I do not know any person that I could establish a relationship > with to help me in this area. I live in Malawi, Central Africa. > > Your assistance will be greatly appreciated. You can contact me directly > off the list. > > -- > Alex G. G. Gondwe > Data Communication > Baobab Health Partnership > P.O. Box 149 > Lilongwe > Malawi > Tel: +265 1 750 600 > Cel: +265 8 519 510 / +265 9 519 510 > Email: alex.gondwe@gmail.com > http://mwizakwacha.blogspot.com > Web: http://www.baobabhealth.org -- Alex G. G. Gondwe Baobab Health Partnership P.O. Box 149 Lilongwe Malawi Tel: +265 1 750 600 Cel: +265 8 519 510 / +265 9 519 510 Email: alex@baobabhealth.org Web: http://www.baobabhealth.org ------=_Part_1301_16438179.1190120679754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry I meant OSPF and not BGP

On 9/18/07, Alex Gondwe <alex.gondwe@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello, all,

I have subscribed to this working group hoping to gain more understanding and probably contribute. I would like to know how I can quickly get up to speed so that I can properly follow the conversations and eventually make meaningful contributions. I have used bgp and am very much interested in pursuing it further.

presently I do not know any person that I could establish a relationship with to help me in this area. I live in Malawi, Central Africa.

Your assistance will be greatly appreciated. You can contact me directly off the list.

--
Alex G. G. Gondwe
Data Communication
Baobab Health Partnership
P.O. Box 149
Lilongwe
Malawi
Tel: +265 1 750 600
Cel: +265 8 519 510 / +265 9 519 510
Email: alex.gondwe@gmail.com
http://mwizakwacha.blogspot.com
Web: http://www.baobabhealth.org



--
Alex G. G. Gondwe
Baobab Health Partnership
P.O. Box 149
Lilongwe
Malawi
Tel: +265 1 750 600
Cel: +265 8 519 510 / +265 9 519 510
Email: alex@baobabhealth.org
Web: http://www.baobabhealth.org ------=_Part_1301_16438179.1190120679754-- --===============1907112301== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1907112301==-- From wbvetwuzu@kaneoheranch.com Tue Sep 18 09:06:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXcmP-0005bE-Qd; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:06:17 -0400 Received: from [87.69.161.123] (helo=kaneoheranch.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXcmG-0006Sw-81; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:06:17 -0400 Message-ID: <407c01c7f9fb$2ecdb850$43b9ef9a@wbvetwuzu> From: "Kyla Carter" To: "Mauricio" Cc: "Filomena Perry" , "Natalia Sullivan" , "Doreatha" , "Lashon" , "Sharyl" , "Glenda" Subject: Sorry it took so long Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:52:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a When individuals request their treatment they frequently seek the following: Trusty Express Dependable Distribution High-level Quality General variety of Medical Treatments Great Cut Rate Medicine service As the leading web-based Medical Supplies in Canada we suit all six of these significant aspects. 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From Yoni.Jansson@abendassociates.com Tue Sep 18 11:05:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXedV-0008HV-5V for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:05:13 -0400 Received: from 201009193228.user.veloxzone.com.br ([201.9.193.228] helo=201009135149.user.veloxzone.com.br) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXedP-0005HJ-3o for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:05:07 -0400 Received: from jp-fb67c47b1759 ([171.160.7.172] helo=jp-fb67c47b1759) by 201009135149.user.veloxzone.com.br ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1ZDgFo-000IVB-iH for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:05:27 -0300 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:05:01 -0300 To: ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org From: "Yoni Jansson" Subject: 6878494 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Greeting ospf-archive See my penis pictures as proof Yoni Jansson http://www.ctweathr.com/ From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 18 15:51:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXj4N-0001Sl-SK; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:49:15 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXj4M-0001Rf-GR for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:49:14 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXj4L-0005kS-GW for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:49:14 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0AF33D6F5; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11213-09; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [?*??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F2833D6F3; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:49:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00c301c7f9e7$41b326d0$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> References: <00c301c7f9e7$41b326d0$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: <51E61C86-37EE-4392-B540-C303AF6A1D21@redback.com> From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] non-zero forwarding address Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:47:45 -0400 To: prashanth X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 16a2b98d831858659c646b3dec9ed22b Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0476872522==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============0476872522== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9--763215387 --Apple-Mail-9--763215387 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Prashanth, On Sep 18, 2007, at 7:29 AM, prashanth wrote: > Forwarding address only makes sense when the network type is > broadcast. > > A ---| BGP > > |----- X > > B ---| > > | > > C ----| > > > > > > Consider the above network (took from RFC section 12.4.4.1).Suppose > RTA is importing routes, all the traffic for these routes > > will go through RTA (Even for RTB and RTC).Clearly for RTB and RTC > this will add one extra hop. So RTA keeps the forwarding address as > RTX address. > > So that RTB and RTC can directly foward the packets to RTX and > saving one extra hop. Clearly if it is a p2p link , there is no use > of putting forwarding address. Right - but if it is an NBMA network or even a P2MP network, the same optimization may be possible. Thanks, Acee > > > thanks > > prashanth > > > > This e-mail and attachments contain confidential information from > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained > herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than > the intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately > and delete it! > > From: Jishnu Banerjee [mailto:jishnub@india.ba-sys.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 4:25 PM > To: Acee Lindem > Cc: ospf@ietf.org > Subject: [OSPF] non-zero forwarding address > > > > I have a doubt regarding forwarding address in Type-5 LSAs. Should > it be non-zero when the connected network type is non-broadcast (eg > p2p,p2mp or even nbma) ? RFC does not specify when forwarding > address field should be populated. If I have overlooked the RFC > then please do point it out. > > > > Regards, > > Jishnu > > --Apple-Mail-9--763215387 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi = Prashanth,=A0

On Sep 18, 2007, at 7:29 AM, prashanth = wrote:

Forwarding address = only makes sense when the network type is broadcast.

=A0 A ---| = BGP

=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0|----- X=A0=A0B = ---|

=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0|=A0C ----|

Consider the above = network (took from RFC section 12.4.4.1).Suppose RTA is importing = routes, all the traffic for these routeswill go through RTA = (Even for RTB and RTC).Clearly for RTB and RTC this will add one extra = hop. So RTA keeps the forwarding address as RTX address.

So that RTB and RTC = can directly foward the packets to RTX and saving one extra hop. Clearly = if it is a p2p link , there is no use of putting forwarding = address.

Right - = but if it is an NBMA network or even a P2MP network, the same = optimization may be possible.=A0

Thanks,
Acee=A0



=A0

thanks

prashanth

=A0

This e-mail and attachments contain confidential = information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity = whose address=A0is listed above. Any use of the information contained = herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial = disclosure, reproduction,=A0or dissemination) by persons other than the = intended recipient's) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in = error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete = it!

From: Jishnu Banerjee [mailto:jishnub@india.ba-sys.com]
Tuesday, = September 18, 2007 4:25 PM
To: Acee Lindem
Cc: ospf@ietf.org [OSPF] non-zero = forwarding address

=A0

I have a doubt regarding forwarding address in = Type-5 LSAs. Should it be non-zero when the connected network type is = non-broadcast (eg p2p,p2mp or even nbma) ? RFC does not specify when = forwarding address field should be populated. If I have overlooked the = RFC then please do point it out.

=A0

Regards,

Jishnu



= --Apple-Mail-9--763215387-- --===============0476872522== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0476872522==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 18 16:34:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXjkD-00043E-N7; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:32:29 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXjkC-00042e-JL for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:32:28 -0400 Received: from exprod7og50.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.155]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXjkB-0007GX-EZ for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:32:28 -0400 Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) by exprod7ob50.obsmtp.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:30:33 PDT Received: from magenta.juniper.net ([172.17.27.123]) by emailsmtp56.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:31:48 -0700 Received: from [172.16.12.13] (nimbus-sc.juniper.net [172.16.12.13]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id l8IKVgI91864; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkatz@juniper.net) In-Reply-To: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Katz Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:31:32 -0700 To: "Thomas, Matthew R" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2007 20:31:48.0689 (UTC) FILETIME=[F019F410:01C7FA32] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ec7c6dab5a62df223002ae71b5179d41 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org I guess my point is that getting rid of areas and DRs does not significantly simplify the implementation, and such implementation will continue to be hard. Furthermore, a *good* implementation of even a simpler protocol is quite hard. For example, the OSPF spec considers "flood the LSA" to be an atomic operation; the expectation is that you'll queue up a copy of it on every interface and on the retransmission lists of every neighbor. This is one of the reasons that accidentally dumping full routing into OSPF causes such heartburn in many implementations; a massive origination of LSAs multiplied by large numbers of neighbors causes a tremendous state explosion. Fixing this is not easy and requires intuitive knowledge of the protocol. The fact that most people can't manage to do good implementations of OSPF means that they should go out of business. There's a reason that there are only two dominant implementations. Frankly, I like the fact that it's not trivial, but then I'm a capitalist and a stockholder. A slightly easier version of the protocol is not going to change this significantly. Aside from all this, I see two fundamental issues in doing anything like this. First is the implementation issue; having a "simpler" OSPF accomplishes nothing unless the old OSPF can be made to disappear (so that you don't have to implement it.) Otherwise you have only succeeded in making every implementor's life even more difficult, and I guarantee that nobody will want anything to do with it. Even if it were the best thing since sliced bread, you then have to figure out how to transition a network to it. Related to this is the fact that nobody has *any* operational motivation to deploy it, given that it appears to be nothing but a slightly dumbed-down version of OSPF. The first rule of displacing an established product in the market is that you have to supplant it with something that is (or is perceived to be) a lot *better* in one way or another. It either needs some killer functionality that people need, or it has to somehow be a lot cheaper. This spec doesn't seem to achieve either one. If you're serious about displacing OSPF as we know it, come up with a spec that fixes the *real* problems with OSPF (areas and DRs do not qualify.) Like I've said, there's plenty of stuff about OSPF that I think is stupid and counterproductive. But the reality of the situation is that OSPF is here, it's known, and it's *done.* Without *really* compelling improvements in functionality, there's simply no reason to go forward with this. --Dave On Sep 14, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Thomas, Matthew R wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Most vendors have had trouble stabilising their code. I was > implementing the odd proteon, 6611's and Wellfleet /Bay /Nortel > back in 1996 and it was odd. Some companies today exist soley to > help vendors achieve stabilty. In terms of Open Source some > implementations some have taken 15 years and are still finalising > for full commercial use. I would say IMHO that after almost 20 > years of this approach, perhaps an adjustment needs to be made? > > The protocol is complex and could be much simpler. I advocate a > simplification of this protocol. I believe it is time that we > perhaps tested what has really been happening. This will pay off in > the long run. Ospf-lite is not a forklift upgrade. Multiple > instances could run quite happily. In the case of customers > connecting to MPLS networks there are multiple instances of OSPF > running anyway. Any of these could be ospf-lite. I do agree with > your view of EIGRP. However there was wisdom in the area outlook > on the protocol. > > A link State protocol should be much simpler to implement. Routing > a few hundred thousand routes should not be such an onerous task. > Our scalability comes from very old impressions. Are areas ( not > including Internet route isolation) really required? Yet they are > almost globally employed. > > I do appreciate your view though, > > Matthew R Thomas > > ________________________________ > > From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] > Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 20:01 > To: Matthew Thomas > Cc: Thomas, Matthew R; ospf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > > > > > On Sep 13, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > >> Well in fact the DR LSA's only reduce complexity if you have a >> large number of routers on the ethernet. If you have under 5 then >> the traffic actually decreases. >> >> Now the DR LSA as you know is flooded through the whole area, so >> the DR saves locally, but then floods everrywhere, thus increasing >> the load. With todays VLANS, 5 routers per Lan is very reasonable. >> The traffic load from OSPF is absolutely negligable. On a 100 MB >> Ethernet it can be as low as 0.008 % even with 1000 routers in a >> single area. Simulations are not required as you can acually >> calculate the LSA sizes and loads based on the packet structure. >> >> So the arguments of N^2 actually do not compute. The arguments of >> having to support two protocols are valid. >> >> The implementation is made significantly easier. The whole design >> process can be removed. The removal of things like DR prevent >> costly analysis from design to design that usually end up with the >> same design.. I understand your comments though.. > > >> I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems >> that the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices >> required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special >> cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I >> would say that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the >> frustration with this very effective protocol? >> >> I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that >> it would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final >> calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you >> need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This >> is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As >> scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the >> scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more >> important. A realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely >> allow the redesign without the argments of loading CPU etc. >> Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its >> relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation >> simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn >> requirement for the protocol. >> >> In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An >> open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome >> further coments. >> >> Matthew R Thomas > > > All of this is theoretically true, but I really don't understand what > the point is. It creates a tremendous amount of work for nonexistent > gains. What is the *real* motivation for this proposal? I just > don't get it. It appears to be entirely an academic exercise, and I > don't have time for those. > > Given that the only tangible benefit is a minor reduction in > implementation complexity, it's only a net gain for some implementor > that is building a product that will operate *only* in a domain in > which *only* this version of OSPF is being deployed. If such a > market exists, they should form their own forum and go off into their > corner and have fun with it (and then go out of business because they > can't interoperate with the vast deployed base.) > > Further, the stuff you're removing is a tiny fraction of the > complexity of a full implementation; even if such a market existed > where a vendor could implement only this, the savings are utterly > marginal. > > From the operator standpoint, there's almost no gain. If we're > looking for "simple and stupid" in configuration, it would be trivial > to do simplification as a CLI hack: "protocol ospf-enterprise/ > interface foo/end". The config system sets up the area for you. > Yes, the LSA database would be a little simpler, but with mature > implementations that have worked for a decade or more I'd suspect > that most operators don't spend a lot of time dissecting the LSA > database, and there's almost 20 years experience in doing so. > > As for bringing up EIGRP, well, I had the honor of rewriting the > implementation without the benefit of being able to change the broken > design. You don't want to get me started there. Let's just say that > I wouldn't cozy up to those letters. ;-) > > As an ironic aside, the place where OSPF failed to scale in practice > were the crazy full-mesh L2 networks that were so popular in the late > 90s; hundreds of neighbors creating O(N^3) information on a link > failure, or O(N^4) information on a node failure (each packet is O(N) > in size.) We got really good at scaling fixes as a result. > > If I were to take on an incompatible change in this protocol, I'd > start with mechanisms that would allow fail-safe pruning of the > flooding tree, and add flap-free soft refresh of the LSA database. > But that's just me. > > --Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 18 18:21:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXlOj-0000Mj-Es; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:18:25 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXlOi-0000Jx-FH for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:18:24 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXlOd-0001fS-2S for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:18:20 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:18:17 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:18:16 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD80E@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Thread-Index: Acf6Mw1bVb0QxoV3SLGMyH/Ils639AAC+Q3p References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: "Dave Katz" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2007 22:18:17.0098 (UTC) FILETIME=[CFE3CEA0:01C7FA41] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32029c790f79bd4a84a26bd2915c54b9 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org I do see your arguments Dave, =20 However, there are State diagrams included which detail exactly how the = flooding mechanism works. =20 The implementation is extraodinarily simple. NextHop which exists to = provise working ready to go protocol stacks list some of the most major = maufacturers as clients. OSPF is clearly not an easy protocol to = implement. =20 The removal of DR's removes ALL the Network LSA's. The removal of areas = and replacement with an AS structure removes the LSA 3's. The idea of = Area summary is easier to put into practise as redistributed routes. = There is more control and simpler to implement. Most network = implementations require an LSA 3 for each area network, summaries are = often ineffective in terms of route count and LSA count without manual = manipulation.=20 =20 Few routers have no Ethernet, and so with respect to the DR, in many = networks this is an instant 50% reduction on all connections, p2p = included, as the netowrk LSA's are not there to flood. I would say that = is a real simplification. Although pruning trees is more interesting to = work on sure and more challenging, would it produce such an easy hit. If = you have removed it, then there is no need to save on it. Not that I am = against pruning trees. =20 However, the main point is; ospf-lite is not trying to save data from = the wire. ospf-lite is about simplifying the protocol. The main argument = against it is that it will load the network, which often is mostly the = opposite. It just sends what it needs to get on with the job. Its deadly = effective and does nothing else. This makes it inherently scalable. =20 Thanks for the comments, =20 Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] Sent: Tue 18/09/2007 21:31 To: Thomas, Matthew R Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments I guess my point is that getting rid of areas and DRs does not=20 significantly simplify the implementation, and such implementation=20 will continue to be hard. Furthermore, a *good* implementation of=20 even a simpler protocol is quite hard. For example, the OSPF spec=20 considers "flood the LSA" to be an atomic operation; the expectation=20 is that you'll queue up a copy of it on every interface and on the=20 retransmission lists of every neighbor. This is one of the reasons=20 that accidentally dumping full routing into OSPF causes such=20 heartburn in many implementations; a massive origination of LSAs=20 multiplied by large numbers of neighbors causes a tremendous state=20 explosion. Fixing this is not easy and requires intuitive knowledge=20 of the protocol. The fact that most people can't manage to do good implementations of=20 OSPF means that they should go out of business. There's a reason=20 that there are only two dominant implementations. Frankly, I like=20 the fact that it's not trivial, but then I'm a capitalist and a=20 stockholder. A slightly easier version of the protocol is not going=20 to change this significantly. Aside from all this, I see two fundamental issues in doing anything=20 like this. First is the implementation issue; having a "simpler"=20 OSPF accomplishes nothing unless the old OSPF can be made to=20 disappear (so that you don't have to implement it.) Otherwise you=20 have only succeeded in making every implementor's life even more=20 difficult, and I guarantee that nobody will want anything to do with=20 it. Even if it were the best thing since sliced bread, you then have=20 to figure out how to transition a network to it. Related to this is the fact that nobody has *any* operational=20 motivation to deploy it, given that it appears to be nothing but a=20 slightly dumbed-down version of OSPF. The first rule of displacing=20 an established product in the market is that you have to supplant it=20 with something that is (or is perceived to be) a lot *better* in one=20 way or another. It either needs some killer functionality that=20 people need, or it has to somehow be a lot cheaper. This spec=20 doesn't seem to achieve either one. If you're serious about displacing OSPF as we know it, come up with a=20 spec that fixes the *real* problems with OSPF (areas and DRs do not=20 qualify.) Like I've said, there's plenty of stuff about OSPF that I think is=20 stupid and counterproductive. But the reality of the situation is=20 that OSPF is here, it's known, and it's *done.* Without *really*=20 compelling improvements in functionality, there's simply no reason to=20 go forward with this. --Dave On Sep 14, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Thomas, Matthew R wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Most vendors have had trouble stabilising their code. I was=20 > implementing the odd proteon, 6611's and Wellfleet /Bay /Nortel=20 > back in 1996 and it was odd. Some companies today exist soley to=20 > help vendors achieve stabilty. In terms of Open Source some=20 > implementations some have taken 15 years and are still finalising=20 > for full commercial use. I would say IMHO that after almost 20=20 > years of this approach, perhaps an adjustment needs to be made? > > The protocol is complex and could be much simpler. I advocate a=20 > simplification of this protocol. I believe it is time that we=20 > perhaps tested what has really been happening. This will pay off in=20 > the long run. Ospf-lite is not a forklift upgrade. Multiple=20 > instances could run quite happily. In the case of customers=20 > connecting to MPLS networks there are multiple instances of OSPF=20 > running anyway. Any of these could be ospf-lite. I do agree with=20 > your view of EIGRP. However there was wisdom in the area outlook=20 > on the protocol. > > A link State protocol should be much simpler to implement. Routing=20 > a few hundred thousand routes should not be such an onerous task.=20 > Our scalability comes from very old impressions. Are areas ( not=20 > including Internet route isolation) really required? Yet they are=20 > almost globally employed. > > I do appreciate your view though, > > Matthew R Thomas > > ________________________________ > > From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] > Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 20:01 > To: Matthew Thomas > Cc: Thomas, Matthew R; ospf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > > > > > On Sep 13, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > >> Well in fact the DR LSA's only reduce complexity if you have a >> large number of routers on the ethernet. If you have under 5 then >> the traffic actually decreases. >> >> Now the DR LSA as you know is flooded through the whole area, so >> the DR saves locally, but then floods everrywhere, thus increasing >> the load. With todays VLANS, 5 routers per Lan is very reasonable. >> The traffic load from OSPF is absolutely negligable. On a 100 MB >> Ethernet it can be as low as 0.008 % even with 1000 routers in a >> single area. Simulations are not required as you can acually >> calculate the LSA sizes and loads based on the packet structure. >> >> So the arguments of N^2 actually do not compute. The arguments of >> having to support two protocols are valid. >> >> The implementation is made significantly easier. The whole design >> process can be removed. The removal of things like DR prevent >> costly analysis from design to design that usually end up with the >> same design.. I understand your comments though.. > > >> I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems >> that the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices >> required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special >> cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I >> would say that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the >> frustration with this very effective protocol? >> >> I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that >> it would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final >> calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you >> need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This >> is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As >> scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the >> scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more >> important. A realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely >> allow the redesign without the argments of loading CPU etc. >> Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its >> relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation >> simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn >> requirement for the protocol. >> >> In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An >> open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome >> further coments. >> >> Matthew R Thomas > > > All of this is theoretically true, but I really don't understand what > the point is. It creates a tremendous amount of work for nonexistent > gains. What is the *real* motivation for this proposal? I just > don't get it. It appears to be entirely an academic exercise, and I > don't have time for those. > > Given that the only tangible benefit is a minor reduction in > implementation complexity, it's only a net gain for some implementor > that is building a product that will operate *only* in a domain in > which *only* this version of OSPF is being deployed. If such a > market exists, they should form their own forum and go off into their > corner and have fun with it (and then go out of business because they > can't interoperate with the vast deployed base.) > > Further, the stuff you're removing is a tiny fraction of the > complexity of a full implementation; even if such a market existed > where a vendor could implement only this, the savings are utterly > marginal. > > From the operator standpoint, there's almost no gain. If we're > looking for "simple and stupid" in configuration, it would be trivial > to do simplification as a CLI hack: "protocol ospf-enterprise/ > interface foo/end". The config system sets up the area for you. > Yes, the LSA database would be a little simpler, but with mature > implementations that have worked for a decade or more I'd suspect > that most operators don't spend a lot of time dissecting the LSA > database, and there's almost 20 years experience in doing so. > > As for bringing up EIGRP, well, I had the honor of rewriting the > implementation without the benefit of being able to change the broken > design. You don't want to get me started there. Let's just say that > I wouldn't cozy up to those letters. ;-) > > As an ironic aside, the place where OSPF failed to scale in practice > were the crazy full-mesh L2 networks that were so popular in the late > 90s; hundreds of neighbors creating O(N^3) information on a link > failure, or O(N^4) information on a node failure (each packet is O(N) > in size.) We got really good at scaling fixes as a result. > > If I were to take on an incompatible change in this protocol, I'd > start with mechanisms that would allow fail-safe pruning of the > flooding tree, and add flap-free soft refresh of the LSA database. > But that's just me. > > --Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 03:55:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXuMQ-0000ak-Al; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:52:38 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXuMP-0000ab-M8 for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:52:37 -0400 Received: from no-more.cisco.com ([64.104.206.251] helo=av-tac-apt.cisco.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXuMO-0007mO-11 for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:52:37 -0400 X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from strange-brew.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-apt.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l8J7qWL25703; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:52:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (ssh-ams-1.cisco.com [144.254.226.40]) by strange-brew.cisco.com (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id l8J7qRI01366; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:52:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46F0D540.7040309@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:52:32 +0200 From: Anton Smirnov Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Thomas, Matthew R" Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD80E@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD80E@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8068004c042dabd7f1301bcc80e039df Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Matthew, > The implementation is extraodinarily simple. I think you are missing the basic Dave's point here - for which reason vendor with existing OSPF code might want to implement your new protocol, however simple it is; and for which reason customer with existing network might want to migrate his IGP to your protocol going thru HUGE pain of network redesign, however simple is configuration afterwards? Until you come up with answer on this question (business question, if you like) any engineering discussion won't make sense. There exists only one flavor of OSPF - the one which can interoperate with rfc2328. Make no mistake - what you are trying to do is to design a new IGP. It happen - for good or for worse - to resemble OSPF more than BGP or RIP but that's about it. I agree with you that OSPF carries burden of historic treats which better be avoided in design of a new protocol and current IGPs are far from being perfect. But the reality is - world doesn't need new IGP at this moment. You will be better off if you try to create COMPLETELY new IGP which RADICALLY solves problems of current standardized IGPs. That may have at least remote chance to be used in the future. Thanks, Anton Thomas, Matthew R wrote: > I do see your arguments Dave, > > However, there are State diagrams included which detail exactly how the flooding mechanism works. > > The implementation is extraodinarily simple. NextHop which exists to provise working ready to go protocol stacks list some of the most major maufacturers as clients. OSPF is clearly not an easy protocol to implement. > > The removal of DR's removes ALL the Network LSA's. The removal of areas and replacement with an AS structure removes the LSA 3's. The idea of Area summary is easier to put into practise as redistributed routes. There is more control and simpler to implement. Most network implementations require an LSA 3 for each area network, summaries are often ineffective in terms of route count and LSA count without manual manipulation. > > Few routers have no Ethernet, and so with respect to the DR, in many networks this is an instant 50% reduction on all connections, p2p included, as the netowrk LSA's are not there to flood. I would say that is a real simplification. Although pruning trees is more interesting to work on sure and more challenging, would it produce such an easy hit. If you have removed it, then there is no need to save on it. Not that I am against pruning trees. > > However, the main point is; ospf-lite is not trying to save data from the wire. ospf-lite is about simplifying the protocol. The main argument against it is that it will load the network, which often is mostly the opposite. It just sends what it needs to get on with the job. Its deadly effective and does nothing else. This makes it inherently scalable. > > Thanks for the comments, > > Matthew R Thomas > > ________________________________ > > From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] > Sent: Tue 18/09/2007 21:31 > To: Thomas, Matthew R > Cc: ospf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > > > > I guess my point is that getting rid of areas and DRs does not > significantly simplify the implementation, and such implementation > will continue to be hard. Furthermore, a *good* implementation of > even a simpler protocol is quite hard. For example, the OSPF spec > considers "flood the LSA" to be an atomic operation; the expectation > is that you'll queue up a copy of it on every interface and on the > retransmission lists of every neighbor. This is one of the reasons > that accidentally dumping full routing into OSPF causes such > heartburn in many implementations; a massive origination of LSAs > multiplied by large numbers of neighbors causes a tremendous state > explosion. Fixing this is not easy and requires intuitive knowledge > of the protocol. > > The fact that most people can't manage to do good implementations of > OSPF means that they should go out of business. There's a reason > that there are only two dominant implementations. Frankly, I like > the fact that it's not trivial, but then I'm a capitalist and a > stockholder. A slightly easier version of the protocol is not going > to change this significantly. > > Aside from all this, I see two fundamental issues in doing anything > like this. First is the implementation issue; having a "simpler" > OSPF accomplishes nothing unless the old OSPF can be made to > disappear (so that you don't have to implement it.) Otherwise you > have only succeeded in making every implementor's life even more > difficult, and I guarantee that nobody will want anything to do with > it. Even if it were the best thing since sliced bread, you then have > to figure out how to transition a network to it. > > Related to this is the fact that nobody has *any* operational > motivation to deploy it, given that it appears to be nothing but a > slightly dumbed-down version of OSPF. The first rule of displacing > an established product in the market is that you have to supplant it > with something that is (or is perceived to be) a lot *better* in one > way or another. It either needs some killer functionality that > people need, or it has to somehow be a lot cheaper. This spec > doesn't seem to achieve either one. > > If you're serious about displacing OSPF as we know it, come up with a > spec that fixes the *real* problems with OSPF (areas and DRs do not > qualify.) > > Like I've said, there's plenty of stuff about OSPF that I think is > stupid and counterproductive. But the reality of the situation is > that OSPF is here, it's known, and it's *done.* Without *really* > compelling improvements in functionality, there's simply no reason to > go forward with this. > > --Dave > > > > On Sep 14, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Thomas, Matthew R wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> Most vendors have had trouble stabilising their code. I was >> implementing the odd proteon, 6611's and Wellfleet /Bay /Nortel >> back in 1996 and it was odd. Some companies today exist soley to >> help vendors achieve stabilty. In terms of Open Source some >> implementations some have taken 15 years and are still finalising >> for full commercial use. I would say IMHO that after almost 20 >> years of this approach, perhaps an adjustment needs to be made? >> >> The protocol is complex and could be much simpler. I advocate a >> simplification of this protocol. I believe it is time that we >> perhaps tested what has really been happening. This will pay off in >> the long run. Ospf-lite is not a forklift upgrade. Multiple >> instances could run quite happily. In the case of customers >> connecting to MPLS networks there are multiple instances of OSPF >> running anyway. Any of these could be ospf-lite. I do agree with >> your view of EIGRP. However there was wisdom in the area outlook >> on the protocol. >> >> A link State protocol should be much simpler to implement. Routing >> a few hundred thousand routes should not be such an onerous task. >> Our scalability comes from very old impressions. Are areas ( not >> including Internet route isolation) really required? Yet they are >> almost globally employed. >> >> I do appreciate your view though, >> >> Matthew R Thomas >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] >> Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 20:01 >> To: Matthew Thomas >> Cc: Thomas, Matthew R; ospf@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 13, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: >> >>> Well in fact the DR LSA's only reduce complexity if you have a >>> large number of routers on the ethernet. If you have under 5 then >>> the traffic actually decreases. >>> >>> Now the DR LSA as you know is flooded through the whole area, so >>> the DR saves locally, but then floods everrywhere, thus increasing >>> the load. With todays VLANS, 5 routers per Lan is very reasonable. >>> The traffic load from OSPF is absolutely negligable. On a 100 MB >>> Ethernet it can be as low as 0.008 % even with 1000 routers in a >>> single area. Simulations are not required as you can acually >>> calculate the LSA sizes and loads based on the packet structure. >>> >>> So the arguments of N^2 actually do not compute. The arguments of >>> having to support two protocols are valid. >>> >>> The implementation is made significantly easier. The whole design >>> process can be removed. The removal of things like DR prevent >>> costly analysis from design to design that usually end up with the >>> same design.. I understand your comments though.. >> >>> I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems >>> that the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices >>> required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special >>> cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I >>> would say that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the >>> frustration with this very effective protocol? >>> >>> I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that >>> it would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final >>> calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you >>> need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This >>> is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As >>> scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the >>> scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more >>> important. A realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely >>> allow the redesign without the argments of loading CPU etc. >>> Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its >>> relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation >>> simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn >>> requirement for the protocol. >>> >>> In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An >>> open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome >>> further coments. >>> >>> Matthew R Thomas >> >> All of this is theoretically true, but I really don't understand what >> the point is. It creates a tremendous amount of work for nonexistent >> gains. What is the *real* motivation for this proposal? I just >> don't get it. It appears to be entirely an academic exercise, and I >> don't have time for those. >> >> Given that the only tangible benefit is a minor reduction in >> implementation complexity, it's only a net gain for some implementor >> that is building a product that will operate *only* in a domain in >> which *only* this version of OSPF is being deployed. If such a >> market exists, they should form their own forum and go off into their >> corner and have fun with it (and then go out of business because they >> can't interoperate with the vast deployed base.) >> >> Further, the stuff you're removing is a tiny fraction of the >> complexity of a full implementation; even if such a market existed >> where a vendor could implement only this, the savings are utterly >> marginal. >> >> From the operator standpoint, there's almost no gain. If we're >> looking for "simple and stupid" in configuration, it would be trivial >> to do simplification as a CLI hack: "protocol ospf-enterprise/ >> interface foo/end". The config system sets up the area for you. >> Yes, the LSA database would be a little simpler, but with mature >> implementations that have worked for a decade or more I'd suspect >> that most operators don't spend a lot of time dissecting the LSA >> database, and there's almost 20 years experience in doing so. >> >> As for bringing up EIGRP, well, I had the honor of rewriting the >> implementation without the benefit of being able to change the broken >> design. You don't want to get me started there. Let's just say that >> I wouldn't cozy up to those letters. ;-) >> >> As an ironic aside, the place where OSPF failed to scale in practice >> were the crazy full-mesh L2 networks that were so popular in the late >> 90s; hundreds of neighbors creating O(N^3) information on a link >> failure, or O(N^4) information on a node failure (each packet is O(N) >> in size.) We got really good at scaling fixes as a result. >> >> If I were to take on an incompatible change in this protocol, I'd >> start with mechanisms that would allow fail-safe pruning of the >> flooding tree, and add flap-free soft refresh of the LSA database. >> But that's just me. >> >> --Dave >> >> >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 05:06:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXvTr-0001lb-5s; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 05:04:23 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXvTm-0001Y8-UX for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 05:04:19 -0400 Received: from smtp810.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.70]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXvTT-0001jU-0W for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 05:04:00 -0400 Received: (qmail 37605 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2007 09:03:57 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=IyayGPKlTV9GrMp4UUSubOr/jiNqcWo5TE+IL5yNB0WUto6xX98ABA7WTCOYAGXVq4M7a2zkwO57+Rd20k6IUMYsTKfj53ClY7MK1398GXQMxHzEEVhQnBQhgSsEglLJKmd82gJRKvZcfSEdRHgpKDyKtHVoMtFGy9L8e0H8MHA= ; Received: from unknown (HELO DGYSNN2J) (matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com@82.23.39.251 with login) by smtp810.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 2007 09:03:57 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: TcqajsoVM1lz2YcCt69EogoTsb.om5QkGXtHr7OISFWy0YNP194SFrh8zW191fVrCLH_AgpBFKoxd1XbxbLf00Rxc8yaVUmO1nGqhr7tLccVJEeB Message-ID: <000b01c7fa9b$dc0553c0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Matthew Thomas" To: "Anton Smirnov" , "Thomas, Matthew R" References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD80E@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <46F0D540.7040309@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:02:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2d133cc328f58695161c98bb4f4dc213 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for your comments Anton, This is a powerful extra tool in an implementors box. It is complimentary to the current heavy version. There is zero network implementation redesign. OSPF V2 has tight restrictions and ospf-lite has practically no restrictions. Standard run in parallel, cut over etc procedures. For the network implementor; (Even with existing stub area design), simply change each area to ospf-lite, redist all routes other than external type 5's (fully supported) which are your internet routes. (lite version of stub area). It is very straightforward. Later simplify out most of your areas and remove them. You could then re-assign some design staff. Its not for here to go into, so appologies to the board, but the savings are staggering. I appreciate your comments, Matthew R Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anton Smirnov" To: "Thomas, Matthew R" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > Matthew, > > > The implementation is extraodinarily simple. > I think you are missing the basic Dave's point here - for which reason > vendor with existing OSPF code might want to implement your new protocol, > however simple it is; and for which reason customer with existing network > might want to migrate his IGP to your protocol going thru HUGE pain of > network redesign, however simple is configuration afterwards? > Until you come up with answer on this question (business question, if > you like) any engineering discussion won't make sense. > > There exists only one flavor of OSPF - the one which can interoperate > with rfc2328. Make no mistake - what you are trying to do is to design a > new IGP. It happen - for good or for worse - to resemble OSPF more than > BGP or RIP but that's about it. > I agree with you that OSPF carries burden of historic treats which > better be avoided in design of a new protocol and current IGPs are far > from being perfect. But the reality is - world doesn't need new IGP at > this moment. > You will be better off if you try to create COMPLETELY new IGP which > RADICALLY solves problems of current standardized IGPs. That may have at > least remote chance to be used in the future. > > Thanks, > > Anton > > > Thomas, Matthew R wrote: >> I do see your arguments Dave, >> However, there are State diagrams included which detail exactly how the >> flooding mechanism works. >> The implementation is extraodinarily simple. NextHop which exists to >> provise working ready to go protocol stacks list some of the most major >> maufacturers as clients. OSPF is clearly not an easy protocol to >> implement. >> The removal of DR's removes ALL the Network LSA's. The removal of areas >> and replacement with an AS structure removes the LSA 3's. The idea of >> Area summary is easier to put into practise as redistributed routes. >> There is more control and simpler to implement. Most network >> implementations require an LSA 3 for each area network, summaries are >> often ineffective in terms of route count and LSA count without manual >> manipulation. Few routers have no Ethernet, and so with respect to the >> DR, in many networks this is an instant 50% reduction on all connections, >> p2p included, as the netowrk LSA's are not there to flood. I would say >> that is a real simplification. Although pruning trees is more interesting >> to work on sure and more challenging, would it produce such an easy hit. >> If you have removed it, then there is no need to save on it. Not that I >> am against pruning trees. >> However, the main point is; ospf-lite is not trying to save data from >> the wire. ospf-lite is about simplifying the protocol. The main argument >> against it is that it will load the network, which often is mostly the >> opposite. It just sends what it needs to get on with the job. Its deadly >> effective and does nothing else. This makes it inherently scalable. >> Thanks for the comments, >> Matthew R Thomas >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] >> Sent: Tue 18/09/2007 21:31 >> To: Thomas, Matthew R >> Cc: ospf@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments >> >> >> >> I guess my point is that getting rid of areas and DRs does not >> significantly simplify the implementation, and such implementation will >> continue to be hard. Furthermore, a *good* implementation of even a >> simpler protocol is quite hard. For example, the OSPF spec considers >> "flood the LSA" to be an atomic operation; the expectation is that >> you'll queue up a copy of it on every interface and on the retransmission >> lists of every neighbor. This is one of the reasons that accidentally >> dumping full routing into OSPF causes such heartburn in many >> implementations; a massive origination of LSAs multiplied by large >> numbers of neighbors causes a tremendous state explosion. Fixing this is >> not easy and requires intuitive knowledge of the protocol. >> >> The fact that most people can't manage to do good implementations of OSPF >> means that they should go out of business. There's a reason that there >> are only two dominant implementations. Frankly, I like the fact that >> it's not trivial, but then I'm a capitalist and a stockholder. A >> slightly easier version of the protocol is not going to change this >> significantly. >> >> Aside from all this, I see two fundamental issues in doing anything like >> this. First is the implementation issue; having a "simpler" OSPF >> accomplishes nothing unless the old OSPF can be made to disappear (so >> that you don't have to implement it.) Otherwise you have only succeeded >> in making every implementor's life even more difficult, and I guarantee >> that nobody will want anything to do with it. Even if it were the best >> thing since sliced bread, you then have to figure out how to transition a >> network to it. >> >> Related to this is the fact that nobody has *any* operational motivation >> to deploy it, given that it appears to be nothing but a slightly >> dumbed-down version of OSPF. The first rule of displacing an established >> product in the market is that you have to supplant it with something that >> is (or is perceived to be) a lot *better* in one way or another. It >> either needs some killer functionality that people need, or it has to >> somehow be a lot cheaper. This spec doesn't seem to achieve either one. >> >> If you're serious about displacing OSPF as we know it, come up with a >> spec that fixes the *real* problems with OSPF (areas and DRs do not >> qualify.) >> >> Like I've said, there's plenty of stuff about OSPF that I think is stupid >> and counterproductive. But the reality of the situation is that OSPF is >> here, it's known, and it's *done.* Without *really* compelling >> improvements in functionality, there's simply no reason to go forward >> with this. >> >> --Dave >> >> >> >> On Sep 14, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Thomas, Matthew R wrote: >> >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> Most vendors have had trouble stabilising their code. I was implementing >>> the odd proteon, 6611's and Wellfleet /Bay /Nortel back in 1996 and it >>> was odd. Some companies today exist soley to help vendors achieve >>> stabilty. In terms of Open Source some implementations some have taken >>> 15 years and are still finalising for full commercial use. I would say >>> IMHO that after almost 20 years of this approach, perhaps an adjustment >>> needs to be made? >>> >>> The protocol is complex and could be much simpler. I advocate a >>> simplification of this protocol. I believe it is time that we perhaps >>> tested what has really been happening. This will pay off in the long >>> run. Ospf-lite is not a forklift upgrade. Multiple instances could run >>> quite happily. In the case of customers connecting to MPLS networks >>> there are multiple instances of OSPF running anyway. Any of these could >>> be ospf-lite. I do agree with your view of EIGRP. However there was >>> wisdom in the area outlook on the protocol. >>> >>> A link State protocol should be much simpler to implement. Routing a few >>> hundred thousand routes should not be such an onerous task. Our >>> scalability comes from very old impressions. Are areas ( not including >>> Internet route isolation) really required? Yet they are almost globally >>> employed. >>> >>> I do appreciate your view though, >>> >>> Matthew R Thomas >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: Dave Katz [mailto:dkatz@juniper.net] >>> Sent: Fri 14/09/2007 20:01 >>> To: Matthew Thomas >>> Cc: Thomas, Matthew R; ospf@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 13, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: >>> >>>> Well in fact the DR LSA's only reduce complexity if you have a >>>> large number of routers on the ethernet. If you have under 5 then >>>> the traffic actually decreases. >>>> >>>> Now the DR LSA as you know is flooded through the whole area, so >>>> the DR saves locally, but then floods everrywhere, thus increasing >>>> the load. With todays VLANS, 5 routers per Lan is very reasonable. >>>> The traffic load from OSPF is absolutely negligable. On a 100 MB >>>> Ethernet it can be as low as 0.008 % even with 1000 routers in a >>>> single area. Simulations are not required as you can acually >>>> calculate the LSA sizes and loads based on the packet structure. >>>> >>>> So the arguments of N^2 actually do not compute. The arguments of >>>> having to support two protocols are valid. >>>> >>>> The implementation is made significantly easier. The whole design >>>> process can be removed. The removal of things like DR prevent >>>> costly analysis from design to design that usually end up with the >>>> same design.. I understand your comments though.. >>> >>>> I would also like to point out the following: In OSPF V2 it seems >>>> that the graph algorithm was designed, and then all the vertices >>>> required are sent out on the wire. This includes some odd special >>>> cases such as the point-to-point lines with their extra stubs. I >>>> would say that perhaps this is the source of a lot of the >>>> frustration with this very effective protocol? >>>> >>>> I am assuming judgement call was made, and a reasonable one, that >>>> it would be simpler to have all the ingredients of the final >>>> calculation actually on the wire. Ospf-lite only sends what you >>>> need to get your graph built. Vertices are created as needed. This >>>> is a fundamental difference in the shape of the protocol. As >>>> scaling goes further with projects such as hlphotnets the >>>> scalability of the protocol becomes as you say both less and more >>>> important. A realisation that we are in 'the noise' should surely >>>> allow the redesign without the argments of loading CPU etc. >>>> Loading / CPU is referred to in the document to nulify its >>>> relevance to change rather than a direct improvement. Implmentation >>>> simplification and operation over different media is the main desgn >>>> requirement for the protocol. >>>> >>>> In a sense this protocol is ideal for the enterprise market. An >>>> open source link State 'EIGRP' if you will? I would greatly welcome >>>> further coments. >>>> >>>> Matthew R Thomas >>> >>> All of this is theoretically true, but I really don't understand what >>> the point is. It creates a tremendous amount of work for nonexistent >>> gains. What is the *real* motivation for this proposal? I just >>> don't get it. It appears to be entirely an academic exercise, and I >>> don't have time for those. >>> >>> Given that the only tangible benefit is a minor reduction in >>> implementation complexity, it's only a net gain for some implementor >>> that is building a product that will operate *only* in a domain in >>> which *only* this version of OSPF is being deployed. If such a >>> market exists, they should form their own forum and go off into their >>> corner and have fun with it (and then go out of business because they >>> can't interoperate with the vast deployed base.) >>> >>> Further, the stuff you're removing is a tiny fraction of the >>> complexity of a full implementation; even if such a market existed >>> where a vendor could implement only this, the savings are utterly >>> marginal. >>> >>> From the operator standpoint, there's almost no gain. If we're >>> looking for "simple and stupid" in configuration, it would be trivial >>> to do simplification as a CLI hack: "protocol ospf-enterprise/ >>> interface foo/end". The config system sets up the area for you. >>> Yes, the LSA database would be a little simpler, but with mature >>> implementations that have worked for a decade or more I'd suspect >>> that most operators don't spend a lot of time dissecting the LSA >>> database, and there's almost 20 years experience in doing so. >>> >>> As for bringing up EIGRP, well, I had the honor of rewriting the >>> implementation without the benefit of being able to change the broken >>> design. You don't want to get me started there. Let's just say that >>> I wouldn't cozy up to those letters. ;-) >>> >>> As an ironic aside, the place where OSPF failed to scale in practice >>> were the crazy full-mesh L2 networks that were so popular in the late >>> 90s; hundreds of neighbors creating O(N^3) information on a link >>> failure, or O(N^4) information on a node failure (each packet is O(N) >>> in size.) We got really good at scaling fixes as a result. >>> >>> If I were to take on an incompatible change in this protocol, I'd >>> start with mechanisms that would allow fail-safe pruning of the >>> flooding tree, and add flap-free soft refresh of the LSA database. >>> But that's just me. >>> >>> --Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSPF mailing list >> OSPF@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 06:54:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXx9C-0000yP-HL; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:51:10 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXx9B-0000wH-2A for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:51:09 -0400 Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.53]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXx94-0004KQ-Sp for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:51:05 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOM003KQ3FWRU@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:50:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOM00C0U3FUPD@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:50:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from p709321533 ([10.18.4.174]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JOM008BB3FNRW@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:50:18 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:19:55 +0530 From: sinbad To: ospf@ietf.org Message-id: <001501c7faaa$d3675f60$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: Acf6qtCVbMO+riFHRw+tNXvHKu7z4g== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 81161953a609a1ee951e8becddfd92e9 Subject: [OSPF] doubt in SPF calculation X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0366837985==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0366837985== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_36huqUuXWiyZhzwjpylCGg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_36huqUuXWiyZhzwjpylCGg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, In SPF calculation. RFC section 16.1 step (3) I am not getting how we can only find equal-cost paths , if we select network vertices before router vertices.Pls someone explain the text in the quotes ... Section 16.1 step (3) from RFC 2328 (3) If at this step the candidate list is empty, the shortest- path tree (of transit vertices) has been completely built and this stage of the procedure terminates. Otherwise, choose the vertex belonging to the candidate list that is closest to the root, and add it to the shortest-path tree (removing it from the candidate list in the process). "Note that when there is a choice of vertices closest to the root, network vertices must be chosen before router vertices in order to necessarily find all equal-cost paths." This is consistent with the tie-breakers that were introduced in the modified Dijkstra algorithm used by OSPF's Multicast routing extensions (MOSPF). thanks sinbad --Boundary_(ID_36huqUuXWiyZhzwjpylCGg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi,

In SPF calculation. RFC section 16.1 step (3)

 

I am not getting how we can only find equal-cost paths , if we select network vertices

before router vertices.Pls someone explain the text in the quotes ...

 

Section 16.1 step (3) from RFC 2328

 

(3) If at this step the      candidate list is empty, the shortest-

path tree (of transit vertices) has   been completely    built

and this stage of the procedure terminates. Otherwise,

choose the vertex belonging to the candidate list that is

closest to the root, and add it to the shortest-path tree

(removing it from the candidate list in the process).

 

"Note that when there is a choice of vertices closest to the root,

network vertices must be chosen before router vertices in

order to necessarily find all equal-cost paths."

 

This is consistent with the tie-breakers that were introduced in the

modified Dijkstra algorithm used by OSPF's Multicast routing

extensions (MOSPF).

 

thanks

sinbad

 

 

--Boundary_(ID_36huqUuXWiyZhzwjpylCGg)-- --===============0366837985== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0366837985==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 06:58:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXxFY-00070F-3R; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:57:44 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXxFW-0006vG-MA for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:57:42 -0400 Received: from lion.seas.upenn.edu ([158.130.12.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXxFQ-0004Rd-M5 for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:57:37 -0400 Received: from [158.130.53.77] (M367PC1.cis.UPENN.EDU [158.130.53.77]) (authenticated bits=0) by lion.seas.upenn.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l8JAvZ9w016843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:57:35 -0400 Message-ID: <46F1009F.9010001@ee.upenn.edu> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:57:35 -0400 From: Roch Guerin User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070809) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sinbad.sinbad@gmail.com Subject: Re: [OSPF] doubt in SPF calculation References: <001501c7faaa$d3675f60$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <001501c7faaa$d3675f60$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.1.2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000904010005010605090601" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5002e63e7d3f9735b6dd671a588eafb2 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ospf@ietf.org List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000904010005010605090601 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090806000507050104060201" --------------090806000507050104060201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The reason for considering network vertices before router vertices is because the outgoing edge of network vertices has a cost of zero and because of how the Dijkstra algorithm operates. When Dijkstra moves a vertex out of the candidate list, it never re-examines it. Hence, if in case of ties you moved the router vertex before the network vertex, you would never discover any (equal cost) path to that router vertex that uses the network (remember that the edge out of a network has cost zero). Hope this helps. Roch sinbad wrote: > > Hi, > > In SPF calculation. RFC section 16.1 step (3) > > > > I am not getting how we can only find equal-cost paths , if we select > network vertices > > before router vertices.Pls someone explain the text in the quotes ... > > > > Section 16.1 step (3) from RFC 2328 > > > > (3) If at this step the candidate list is empty, the shortest- > > path tree (of transit vertices) has been completely built > > and this stage of the procedure terminates. Otherwise, > > choose the vertex belonging to the candidate list that is > > closest to the root, and add it to the shortest-path tree > > (removing it from the candidate list in the process). > > > > "Note that when there is a choice of vertices closest to the root, > > network vertices must be chosen before router vertices in > > order to necessarily find all equal-cost paths." > > > > This is consistent with the tie-breakers that were introduced in the > > modified Dijkstra algorithm used by OSPF's Multicast routing > > extensions (MOSPF). > > > > thanks > > sinbad > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > --------------090806000507050104060201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The reason for considering network vertices before router vertices is because the outgoing edge of network vertices has a cost of zero and because of how the Dijkstra algorithm operates.  When Dijkstra moves a vertex out of the candidate list, it never re-examines it.  Hence, if in case of ties you moved the router vertex before the network vertex, you would never discover any (equal cost) path to that router vertex that uses the network (remember that the edge out of a network has cost zero).
Hope this helps.
Roch

sinbad wrote:

Hi,

In SPF calculation. RFC section 16.1 step (3)

 

I am not getting how we can only find equal-cost paths , if we select network vertices

before router vertices.Pls someone explain the text in the quotes ...

 

Section 16.1 step (3) from RFC 2328

 

(3) If at this step the      candidate list is empty, the shortest-

path tree (of transit vertices) has   been completely    built

and this stage of the procedure terminates. Otherwise,

choose the vertex belonging to the candidate list that is

closest to the root, and add it to the shortest-path tree

(removing it from the candidate list in the process).

 

"Note that when there is a choice of vertices closest to the root,

network vertices must be chosen before router vertices in

order to necessarily find all equal-cost paths."

 

This is consistent with the tie-breakers that were introduced in the

modified Dijkstra algorithm used by OSPF's Multicast routing

extensions (MOSPF).

 

thanks

sinbad

 

 


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--------------090806000507050104060201-- --------------000904010005010605090601 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; name="guerin.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="guerin.vcf" begin:vcard fn:Roch Guerin n:Guerin;Roch org:University of Pennsylvania;Electrical and Systems Engineering adr:;;200 South 33rd Street;Philadelphia;PA;19104;U.S.A. title:Alfred Fitler Moore Professor of Telecommunication Networks tel;work:(215) 898-9351 tel;fax:(215) 573-2068 tel;cell:(215) 431-7396 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~guerin version:2.1 end:vcard --------------000904010005010605090601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --------------000904010005010605090601-- From simardecg@aerztetabelle.de Wed Sep 19 12:34:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY2V6-0002O6-Ac for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:34:08 -0400 Received: from ackh89.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.10.83.89]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY2V5-0005Mn-Om for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:34:08 -0400 Received: from blondi-dhsenyia ([118.141.136.42]:7797 "EHLO blondi-dhsenyia" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by ackh89.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl with ESMTP id S22ZOHJCXJKPCWYT (ORCPT ); Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:34:58 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:34:26 +0200 From: "jackie simard" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: lkrofdro Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Hi ospf-archive Our biochemists have created the best triple strength formula to give you faster and safer results jackie simard http://masrqawy.com/ From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 16:18:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY5yJ-0002FK-Ed; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:16:31 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY5yH-0002FD-TJ for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:16:29 -0400 Received: from exprod7og57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.169]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY5yH-0004Xk-By for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:16:29 -0400 Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) by exprod7ob57.obsmtp.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:12:32 PDT Received: from magenta.juniper.net ([172.17.27.123]) by emailsmtp55.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:16:19 -0700 Received: from [172.16.12.13] (nimbus-sc.juniper.net [172.16.12.13]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id l8JKGEI33906; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkatz@juniper.net) In-Reply-To: <000b01c7fa9b$dc0553c0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD80E@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <46F0D540.7040309@cisco.com> <000b01c7fa9b$dc0553c0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <827B6C87-183B-4CBD-911D-782A996279F6@juniper.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dave Katz Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:16:01 -0700 To: Matthew Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Sep 2007 20:16:19.0932 (UTC) FILETIME=[F0EEA1C0:01C7FAF9] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org On Sep 19, 2007, at 2:02 AM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > > This is a powerful extra tool in an implementors box. Protocol implementor, or network implementor? From the network implementor (operations) side, there is essentially nothing to gain in using this spec. From the protocol implementor side, it's just one more thing to code at significant additional cost, for no gain at all (since the other version is not going away.) Why is this a "powerful extra tool?" Powerful in what way, and to whom? > Its not for here to go into, so appologies to the board, but the > savings are staggering. Savings in what? And "staggering?" This is just a bit too much. Taking a peek at our source, we've got something in the tens of thousands of lines of code in our OSPF implementation. DR election is about 1% of that, as is area handling. Generation and processing of the to-be-discarded LSA types is in the noise. Let me be brutally frank here. I happen to know what is required to implement a complete, robust, scalable implementation of OSPF, having done so. The *vast* majority of the code has nothing at all to do with the optimizations proposed, and as such, from an implementation standpoint, the proposal is not significantly easier to implement if you plan on building one that is commercially viable. What you're proposing has absolutely no hope of moving forward. It would create needless work for implementors, provide no gain for operators, and is incompatible with the vast deployed base. I'm assuming that this is part of your doctoral thesis, for which I wish you the best. However, you need to understand that in the real world this spec is fundamentally impractical, because the benefits are minimal and the costs are huge. If the industry is to consider a new IGP (which for all practical purposes this is), it would need to be fundamentally better than what we have now, in one or more dimensions (functionality, scalability, cost of deployment, etc.) Like I've said, as an implementor I have derided some of the more baroque aspects of OSPF since it was first proposed. I also appreciate the idea that something can be made easier to implement. However, implementation cost (within reason) is *not* a significant factor in the market success of a protocol. The money paid to me to build this has been dwarfed by many orders of magnitude by the money earned by its existence. And the money earned by existence has been dwarfed by the money spent deploying it. I would suggest that we drop this matter in the context of the IETF, as I seriously doubt that there is any significant interest in going forward with it. --Dave _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From kailunlim@epm.net.co Wed Sep 19 17:27:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY75K-00052r-EU for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:27:50 -0400 Received: from esa153.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.20.120.153] helo=bnreqxd) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY75E-0007G0-01 for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:27:45 -0400 Received: from zkfrg ([188.196.45.78]) by bnreqxd (8.13.5/8.13.5) with SMTP id l8JLSrp7039437; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:28:53 +0200 Message-ID: <002a01c7fb03$e3077960$4e2dc4bc@zkfrg> From: To: Subject: Hey kids, want free games? Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:27:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 All the games you could ever want...FREE http://201.214.76.152/ From ccpcgiuqy@oct-net.ne.jp Wed Sep 19 17:49:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY7Px-0000w9-Ky; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:49:09 -0400 Received: from dcbd5bc8d.oct-net.ne.jp ([203.213.188.141] helo=oct-net.ne.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY7Pk-0007ud-Iy; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:49:04 -0400 Message-ID: <58ab01c7fae4$1cf479e0$b97c9c35@ccpcgiuqy> From: "Terry" To: "Nerissa Peterson" Cc: "Jonna" , "Kyong Warren" Subject: Sure it's time Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:40:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_B5F_3E51_4BC46069.45F30A03" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4cbeb0f20efb229aa93fae1468d20275 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_B5F_3E51_4BC46069.45F30A03 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_379_5141_8D82E196.85765ACB" ------=_NextPart_379_5141_8D82E196.85765ACB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "A enthusiastically woman!" 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from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY7yD-0002Gq-Mh; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:24:33 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY7yB-0002FD-Rm for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:24:31 -0400 Received: from smtp801.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.61]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY7y0-0000OB-Hm for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:24:26 -0400 Received: (qmail 76138 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2007 22:24:01 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=p8IToEx77Yib8CRYpL8dg2z+nNzqW3roOu5o1DJ+QxoEA9OzEytRPYIKe+EqHsO8VbFkBq94LoY1PhbNunFOyCN/+uwfBBXDKBKozD7RMrNRF1vpzpuW+jvDvQPvf1orEjoQ8PvQunb/MXK9phU3895DAs4MsBHcWz04Vl5BfQM= ; Received: from unknown (HELO DGYSNN2J) (matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com@82.23.39.251 with login) by smtp801.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 2007 22:24:01 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: j0VHsNoVM1kzt1SD.9y3ngTSzfG8iHSESqoew8JwgAYh4vJ_rPb2jWifqiq_Plyl2N6LahqIAA-- Message-ID: <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Matthew Thomas" To: "Dave Katz" References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD80E@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <46F0D540.7040309@cisco.com> <000b01c7fa9b$dc0553c0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <827B6C87-183B-4CBD-911D-782A996279F6@juniper.net> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:22:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org OK, I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase for an OSPF rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one client that spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few thousand low end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the complexity of supporting this protocol IS staggering. The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a heavy protocol is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing a protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to offer a choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and put into context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. The problem here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the noise), it is trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long enough for a strip and rebuild. A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to the market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if you are interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the future about other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is ineffective. I have worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 so this is nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. Matthew R Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Katz" To: "Matthew Thomas" Cc: "Anton Smirnov" ; "Thomas, Matthew R" ; Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > > On Sep 19, 2007, at 2:02 AM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > >> >> This is a powerful extra tool in an implementors box. > > Protocol implementor, or network implementor? > > From the network implementor (operations) side, there is essentially > nothing to gain in using this spec. > > From the protocol implementor side, it's just one more thing to code at > significant additional cost, for no gain at all (since the other version > is not going away.) > > Why is this a "powerful extra tool?" Powerful in what way, and to whom? > > >> Its not for here to go into, so appologies to the board, but the savings >> are staggering. > > Savings in what? And "staggering?" This is just a bit too much. > > Taking a peek at our source, we've got something in the tens of thousands > of lines of code in our OSPF implementation. DR election is about 1% of > that, as is area handling. Generation and processing of the > to-be-discarded LSA types is in the noise. > > Let me be brutally frank here. I happen to know what is required to > implement a complete, robust, scalable implementation of OSPF, having > done so. The *vast* majority of the code has nothing at all to do with > the optimizations proposed, and as such, from an implementation > standpoint, the proposal is not significantly easier to implement if you > plan on building one that is commercially viable. > > What you're proposing has absolutely no hope of moving forward. It would > create needless work for implementors, provide no gain for operators, and > is incompatible with the vast deployed base. > > I'm assuming that this is part of your doctoral thesis, for which I wish > you the best. However, you need to understand that in the real world > this spec is fundamentally impractical, because the benefits are minimal > and the costs are huge. If the industry is to consider a new IGP (which > for all practical purposes this is), it would need to be fundamentally > better than what we have now, in one or more dimensions (functionality, > scalability, cost of deployment, etc.) > > Like I've said, as an implementor I have derided some of the more baroque > aspects of OSPF since it was first proposed. I also appreciate the idea > that something can be made easier to implement. However, implementation > cost (within reason) is *not* a significant factor in the market success > of a protocol. The money paid to me to build this has been dwarfed by > many orders of magnitude by the money earned by its existence. And the > money earned by existence has been dwarfed by the money spent deploying > it. > > I would suggest that we drop this matter in the context of the IETF, as I > seriously doubt that there is any significant interest in going forward > with it. > > --Dave > > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 19:36:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY93J-0003yW-4S; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:33:53 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY93H-0003rj-LA for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:33:51 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY938-0001u6-2s for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:33:47 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:33:23 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:33:22 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD820@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Thread-Index: Acf7DIjrGeB5q079ScCa2urnP9jbKQAA8CTH References: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D4@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <37D5A5BB-A257-42A3-A2AA-0EF87EA9CAF0@juniper.net> <04f601c7f660$333fc8e0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <75F6972A-3A60-46AF-A8E2-3854EE2BA370@juniper.net> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD7D8@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD80E@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> <46F0D540.7040309@cisco.com> <000b01c7fa9b$dc0553c0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <827B6C87-183B-4CBD-911D-782A996279F6@juniper.net> <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Sep 2007 23:33:23.0918 (UTC) FILETIME=[7893B6E0:01C7FB15] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3971661e40967acfc35f708dd5f33760 X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Dave, =20 =20 Just for reference; there is in fact significant interest from both = reasonably sized Telco operators, and Router Vendors. The draft is long = and takes a little time to absorb. =20 Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Matthew Thomas [mailto:matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com] Sent: Wed 19/09/2007 23:22 To: Dave Katz Cc: Anton Smirnov; Thomas, Matthew R; ospf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments OK, I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase for an = OSPF rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one client that spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few thousand = low end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the complexity = of supporting this protocol IS staggering. The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a heavy = protocol is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing a protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to offer a choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and put into context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. The = problem here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the noise), it is trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long enough = for a strip and rebuild. A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to the market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if you are interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the future = about other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is ineffective. I = have worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 so = this is nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. Matthew R Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Katz" To: "Matthew Thomas" Cc: "Anton Smirnov" ; "Thomas, Matthew R" ; Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > > On Sep 19, 2007, at 2:02 AM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > >> >> This is a powerful extra tool in an implementors box. > > Protocol implementor, or network implementor? > > From the network implementor (operations) side, there is essentially > nothing to gain in using this spec. > > From the protocol implementor side, it's just one more thing to code = at > significant additional cost, for no gain at all (since the other = version > is not going away.) > > Why is this a "powerful extra tool?" Powerful in what way, and to = whom? > > >> Its not for here to go into, so appologies to the board, but the = savings >> are staggering. > > Savings in what? And "staggering?" This is just a bit too much. > > Taking a peek at our source, we've got something in the tens of = thousands > of lines of code in our OSPF implementation. DR election is about 1% = of > that, as is area handling. Generation and processing of the > to-be-discarded LSA types is in the noise. > > Let me be brutally frank here. I happen to know what is required to > implement a complete, robust, scalable implementation of OSPF, having > done so. The *vast* majority of the code has nothing at all to do = with > the optimizations proposed, and as such, from an implementation > standpoint, the proposal is not significantly easier to implement if = you > plan on building one that is commercially viable. > > What you're proposing has absolutely no hope of moving forward. It = would > create needless work for implementors, provide no gain for operators, = and > is incompatible with the vast deployed base. > > I'm assuming that this is part of your doctoral thesis, for which I = wish > you the best. However, you need to understand that in the real world > this spec is fundamentally impractical, because the benefits are = minimal > and the costs are huge. If the industry is to consider a new IGP = (which > for all practical purposes this is), it would need to be = fundamentally > better than what we have now, in one or more dimensions = (functionality, > scalability, cost of deployment, etc.) > > Like I've said, as an implementor I have derided some of the more = baroque > aspects of OSPF since it was first proposed. I also appreciate the = idea > that something can be made easier to implement. However, = implementation > cost (within reason) is *not* a significant factor in the market = success > of a protocol. The money paid to me to build this has been dwarfed = by > many orders of magnitude by the money earned by its existence. And = the > money earned by existence has been dwarfed by the money spent = deploying > it. > > I would suggest that we drop this matter in the context of the IETF, = as I > seriously doubt that there is any significant interest in going = forward > with it. > > --Dave > > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 20:40:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYA2K-00022x-5d; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:36:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYA2J-000210-0f for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:36:55 -0400 Received: from 69.37.59.172.adsl.snet.net ([69.37.59.172] helo=harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYA28-0003Ga-Mm for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:36:50 -0400 Received: from harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (harbor.brookfield.occnc.com [69.37.59.172]) by harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l8K0aO2C096257; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:36:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) Message-Id: <200709200036.l8K0aO2C096257@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> To: "Matthew Thomas" From: Curtis Villamizar Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:22:54 BST." <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:36:24 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@occnc.com List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org In message <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> "Matthew Thomas" writes: > > OK, > > I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase for an OSPF > rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one client that > spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few thousand low > end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the complexity of > supporting this protocol IS staggering. > > The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a heavy protocol > is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing a > protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to offer a > choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and put into > context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. The problem > here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the noise), it is > trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long enough for a > strip and rebuild. If you are talking about the cost charged for OSPF, that's an issue with a particular router vendor that charges for software and charges excessively for LS IGPs, BGP, and anything an ISP might need. That's also no where near 100s of millions of dollars. Having had a hand in the OSPF rollout at the NSFNET backbone (and a major hand in the BGP4 rollout) in the mid-90s I can say from first hand experiend that the engineering cost are quite minimal. We had about 1,000 routers including CPE, under 200 not including CPE. Many of the smarter providers, going back to early 90s, machine generate router configurations so the field tech with a new edge router (or any other) just installs a minimal config and downloads the machine generated config that was prepared when the service order went through the system. Config flexibility rather than simplicity is greatly appreciated by the programmer (often perl hacks in the early days) that generates the configs (that was me for the NSFNET core - the configs for regional routers and CPE were quite simple). > A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to the > market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if you are > interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the future about > other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is ineffective. I have > worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 so this is > nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. > > Matthew R Thomas Except that people like Dave have been talking to engineering people at IP providers for over a decade and have quite a bit of clue about something like this. IMHO - This is a waste of time. The WG should not pursue it. Curtis _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 20:46:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYA9z-00009x-C7; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:44:51 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYA9y-000089-52 for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:44:50 -0400 Received: from smtp814.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.74]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYA9s-0003Sx-Pe for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:44:50 -0400 Received: (qmail 26534 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2007 00:44:29 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=OlcTXIUmi7rxv6lR7D+G9r3FWeixM6AdLP0HMH5kK1+B1TFCHq5RSgCo8J8ULzb8B0dSXm2uJx7q9wEaalKYervfn33SRyKTxetC8U2/dYRSosoh8EQJmjMfKZsRFXXbKJMWYVG2YxW9QXkguyMjbBA/XkYBZtIa0NVNdibYmjg= ; Received: from unknown (HELO DGYSNN2J) (matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com@82.23.39.251 with login) by smtp814.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Sep 2007 00:44:28 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: YyYuv8QVM1n8_miZAcP3RNw6wsD8CsV0XkPVAkxn73IzWDcXv9f052Le0qqxBcD68wRhUCuNCA-- Message-ID: <00c901c7fb1f$3f6f1170$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Matthew Thomas" To: References: <200709200036.l8K0aO2C096257@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:43:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org I worked on a project that charged 250+ million dollars for 2000 routers, albeit with some PC installs and leased lines etc. I do not want to rise to this. I have spoken in depth with over 2000 (its hard to keep count) ospf network implementation engineers over 10 years but my experience is irrelevant. It isnt as good as yours, but it is firm. An engineers experience is not neccessarily of relevance to a solution. Lets stick to technical or take this direct. Thanks for your comments, Matthew R Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Villamizar" To: "Matthew Thomas" Cc: "Dave Katz" ; Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:36 AM Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > > In message <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> > "Matthew Thomas" writes: >> >> OK, >> >> I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase for an >> OSPF >> rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one client that >> spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few thousand low >> end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the complexity >> of >> supporting this protocol IS staggering. >> >> The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a heavy >> protocol >> is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing a >> protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to offer a >> choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and put into >> context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. The >> problem >> here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the noise), it is >> trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long enough for >> a >> strip and rebuild. > > If you are talking about the cost charged for OSPF, that's an issue > with a particular router vendor that charges for software and charges > excessively for LS IGPs, BGP, and anything an ISP might need. That's > also no where near 100s of millions of dollars. > > Having had a hand in the OSPF rollout at the NSFNET backbone (and a > major hand in the BGP4 rollout) in the mid-90s I can say from first > hand experiend that the engineering cost are quite minimal. We had > about 1,000 routers including CPE, under 200 not including CPE. > > Many of the smarter providers, going back to early 90s, machine > generate router configurations so the field tech with a new edge > router (or any other) just installs a minimal config and downloads the > machine generated config that was prepared when the service order went > through the system. Config flexibility rather than simplicity is > greatly appreciated by the programmer (often perl hacks in the early > days) that generates the configs (that was me for the NSFNET core - > the configs for regional routers and CPE were quite simple). > >> A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to the >> market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if you are >> interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the future about >> other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is ineffective. I >> have >> worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 so this >> is >> nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. >> >> Matthew R Thomas > > Except that people like Dave have been talking to engineering people > at IP providers for over a decade and have quite a bit of clue about > something like this. > > IMHO - This is a waste of time. The WG should not pursue it. > > Curtis > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 19 22:39:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYBu5-0007Q6-4k; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:36:33 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYBu3-0007La-Jo for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:36:31 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYBtx-00062w-0g for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:36:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A34341CC4; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24105-09; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [ZJ??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3F1341CC3; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:36:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00c901c7fb1f$3f6f1170$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> References: <200709200036.l8K0aO2C096257@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> <00c901c7fb1f$3f6f1170$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6E32FBDA-BC05-4CD5-8C64-419672580082@redback.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:34:47 -0400 To: Matthew Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1676547e4f33b5e63227e9c02bd359e3 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi Matthew, I've been involved with OSPF for some time myself and I don't see a requirement for this light weight version. If a Telco operator wants to limit themselves to a single area and only P2P/P2MP links then they'd certainly be able to do so with most implementations (at least the last 2 that I've worked on). Furthermore, I can't see any serious router vendor wanting to support another variant of OSPF - especially one that is close to being a proper subset but deviates in subtle ways. I can't see this simplifying anybody's OSPF code base. Thanks, Acee P.S. I wish I'd have been around to design that OSPF network and configure those 2000 OSPF routers - I'd have done it for a paltry $25 million. That would leave plenty to spare to buy/physically install the routers and the rest of the equipment :^) On Sep 19, 2007, at 8:43 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > I worked on a project that charged 250+ million dollars for 2000 > routers, albeit with some PC installs and leased lines etc. I do > not want to rise to this. I have spoken in depth with over 2000 > (its hard to keep count) ospf network implementation engineers > over 10 years but my experience is irrelevant. It isnt as good as > yours, but it is firm. An engineers experience is not neccessarily > of relevance to a solution. Lets stick to technical or take this > direct. > > Thanks for your comments, > > Matthew R Thomas > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Villamizar" > > To: "Matthew Thomas" > Cc: "Dave Katz" ; > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:36 AM > Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > > >> >> In message <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> >> "Matthew Thomas" writes: >>> >>> OK, >>> >>> I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase >>> for an OSPF >>> rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one >>> client that >>> spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few >>> thousand low >>> end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the >>> complexity of >>> supporting this protocol IS staggering. >>> >>> The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a >>> heavy protocol >>> is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing a >>> protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to >>> offer a >>> choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and >>> put into >>> context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. >>> The problem >>> here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the >>> noise), it is >>> trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long >>> enough for a >>> strip and rebuild. >> >> If you are talking about the cost charged for OSPF, that's an issue >> with a particular router vendor that charges for software and charges >> excessively for LS IGPs, BGP, and anything an ISP might need. That's >> also no where near 100s of millions of dollars. >> >> Having had a hand in the OSPF rollout at the NSFNET backbone (and a >> major hand in the BGP4 rollout) in the mid-90s I can say from first >> hand experiend that the engineering cost are quite minimal. We had >> about 1,000 routers including CPE, under 200 not including CPE. >> >> Many of the smarter providers, going back to early 90s, machine >> generate router configurations so the field tech with a new edge >> router (or any other) just installs a minimal config and downloads >> the >> machine generated config that was prepared when the service order >> went >> through the system. Config flexibility rather than simplicity is >> greatly appreciated by the programmer (often perl hacks in the early >> days) that generates the configs (that was me for the NSFNET core - >> the configs for regional routers and CPE were quite simple). >> >>> A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to >>> the >>> market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if >>> you are >>> interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the >>> future about >>> other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is >>> ineffective. I have >>> worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 >>> so this is >>> nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. >>> >>> Matthew R Thomas >> >> Except that people like Dave have been talking to engineering people >> at IP providers for over a decade and have quite a bit of clue about >> something like this. >> >> IMHO - This is a waste of time. The WG should not pursue it. >> >> Curtis > > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 20 01:11:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYEHU-0006g4-Hp; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:08:52 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYEHS-0006ex-6V for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:08:50 -0400 Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.55]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYEHP-0001ol-Tm for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:08:50 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JON00L52I9ISK@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:08:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JON0013VI9G8M@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:08:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from p709321533 ([10.18.4.174]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JON00GF9I9AWL@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:08:04 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:37:44 +0530 From: sinbad To: ospf@ietf.org Message-id: <000601c7fb44$30f3a410$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: Acf7RC1Yvdu1P1xFRHqoK11Ji2yVUg== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 28f75db3f8e48d5ad2c47991f0c6b772 Subject: [OSPF] p2mp interfaces X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1159754866==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1159754866== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9risuqgF9D+s62wF7VzwcQ)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_9risuqgF9D+s62wF7VzwcQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >From RFC 2328 section 12.4.1.4. For operational Point-to-MultiPoint interfaces, one or more link descriptions are added to the router-LSA as follows: o "A single Type 3 link (stub network) is added with Link ID set to the router's own IP interface address, Link Data set to the mask 0xffffffff (indicating a host route), and cost set to 0." o For each fully adjacent neighbor associated with the interface, add an additional Type 1 link (point-to- point) with Link ID set to the Router ID of the neighboring router, Link Data set to the IP interface address and cost equal to the interface's configured output cost. The text in quotes say that for p2mp interfaces , type-3 link should be added with cost 0, why is this needed? Thanks sinbad --Boundary_(ID_9risuqgF9D+s62wF7VzwcQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

From RFC 2328 section 12.4.1.4.

 

For operational       Point-to-MultiPoint interfaces,      one or

more link descriptions are added to the       router-LSA as

follows:

 

o   "A single Type 3 link (stub network) is added with

    Link ID set  to the router's own IP interface

    address, Link Data set to the mask 0xffffffff

    (indicating  a host route), and cost  set to 0."

 

o   For     each fully adjacent neighbor associated      with the

    interface, add an additional Type 1   link (point-to-

    point) with  Link ID    set to the Router ID of   the

    neighboring router,     Link Data set to the IP

    interface address and cost equal to the interface's

    configured output cost.

   

The text in quotes say that for p2mp interfaces , type-3 link should be added with cost 0, why is this needed?

 

Thanks

sinbad

 

--Boundary_(ID_9risuqgF9D+s62wF7VzwcQ)-- --===============1159754866== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1159754866==-- From nebojsa@ushousedeals.com Thu Sep 20 01:25:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYEXY-00033r-9y; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:25:28 -0400 Received: from [220.74.97.239] (helo=[220.74.97.239]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYEXS-0001nI-T1; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:25:24 -0400 Received: from [220.74.97.239] by mx5.biz.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:25:10 +0900 Message-ID: <01c7fb46$9cef7610$ef614adc@nebojsa> From: "Alyssa Owen" To: Subject: US $ 269.90 Creative Suite 3 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:25:10 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2741.2600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2741.2600 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Adobe Photoshop CS3 http://www.gorehui.cn From ametriann@flemingc.on.ca Thu Sep 20 02:18:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYFMS-0004tM-W2 for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:18:05 -0400 Received: from dyn-83-157-133-241.ppp.tiscali.fr ([83.157.133.241]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYFMH-00037O-HW for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:17:59 -0400 Received: from [32.130.166.233] (helo=rpyu) by dyn-83-157-133-241.ppp.tiscali.fr with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1J0Qª-0006g3-6E; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:21:13 +0200 Message-ID: <003101c7fb4d$ee5d8b70$e9a68220@rpyu> From: To: Subject: Finally we get a break Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:17:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Finally, have the drug store delivered right to your door, at wholesale prices http://cetzaqg.majorbring.cn/?174249966905 From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 20 03:56:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYGqU-0000j0-L7; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 03:53:10 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYGqT-0000il-NW for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 03:53:09 -0400 Received: from smtp803.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYGqL-0005Hs-79 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 03:53:07 -0400 Received: (qmail 92243 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2007 07:52:40 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=IXnl0B0q42iI3rw50o6OZvUjgi7pxzCTOHkjmvx8bgBvj+oSEFsmV6zrj4lAlNRx1PbP3Z3JTVx1AclOvMc+Z9fHfhZ8w3zpgT4ZmcgBjYsyEoRw9SbC9XWFYePIySyd2n1CE3dT1kYqKjPI+0DgWSHoyHBu2mQcH4v861J1Wks= ; Received: from unknown (HELO DGYSNN2J) (matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com@82.23.39.251 with login) by smtp803.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Sep 2007 07:52:39 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: BFOkkZgVM1nkM1EaGmft14tWmHX_JPmxgtgKSHUlK_5nmuQl5_xtixR55nNKbgAYrUqxEDCuBzMv_oNszPfoxEUMFVl9a7ZGMluJxNIt0zOGvc942aeFGGZrwZYuPtITmPo- Message-ID: <002d01c7fb5b$109340b0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Matthew Thomas" To: "Acee Lindem" References: <200709200036.l8K0aO2C096257@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> <00c901c7fb1f$3f6f1170$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <6E32FBDA-BC05-4CD5-8C64-419672580082@redback.com> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:51:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8fbbaa16f9fd29df280814cb95ae2290 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Sure Acee, it was in 1996. I sugested something lke that but it wasnt going to happen :o) Matthew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Acee Lindem" To: "Matthew Thomas" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:34 AM Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > Hi Matthew, > I've been involved with OSPF for some time myself and I don't see a > requirement for this light weight version. If a Telco operator wants to > limit themselves to a single area and only P2P/P2MP links then they'd > certainly be able to do so with most implementations (at least the last 2 > that I've worked on). Furthermore, I can't see any serious router vendor > wanting to support another variant of OSPF - especially one that is close > to being a proper subset but deviates in subtle ways. I can't see this > simplifying anybody's OSPF code base. > > Thanks, > Acee > P.S. I wish I'd have been around to design that OSPF network and > configure those 2000 OSPF routers - I'd have done it for a paltry $25 > million. That would leave plenty to spare to buy/physically install the > routers and the rest of the equipment :^) > > On Sep 19, 2007, at 8:43 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > >> I worked on a project that charged 250+ million dollars for 2000 >> routers, albeit with some PC installs and leased lines etc. I do not >> want to rise to this. I have spoken in depth with over 2000 (its hard to >> keep count) ospf network implementation engineers over 10 years but my >> experience is irrelevant. It isnt as good as yours, but it is firm. An >> engineers experience is not neccessarily of relevance to a solution. >> Lets stick to technical or take this direct. >> >> Thanks for your comments, >> >> Matthew R Thomas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Villamizar" >> >> To: "Matthew Thomas" >> Cc: "Dave Katz" ; >> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments >> >> >>> >>> In message <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> >>> "Matthew Thomas" writes: >>>> >>>> OK, >>>> >>>> I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase for an >>>> OSPF >>>> rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one client >>>> that >>>> spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few thousand >>>> low >>>> end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the >>>> complexity of >>>> supporting this protocol IS staggering. >>>> >>>> The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a heavy >>>> protocol >>>> is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing a >>>> protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to offer >>>> a >>>> choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and put >>>> into >>>> context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. The >>>> problem >>>> here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the noise), it >>>> is >>>> trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long enough >>>> for a >>>> strip and rebuild. >>> >>> If you are talking about the cost charged for OSPF, that's an issue >>> with a particular router vendor that charges for software and charges >>> excessively for LS IGPs, BGP, and anything an ISP might need. That's >>> also no where near 100s of millions of dollars. >>> >>> Having had a hand in the OSPF rollout at the NSFNET backbone (and a >>> major hand in the BGP4 rollout) in the mid-90s I can say from first >>> hand experiend that the engineering cost are quite minimal. We had >>> about 1,000 routers including CPE, under 200 not including CPE. >>> >>> Many of the smarter providers, going back to early 90s, machine >>> generate router configurations so the field tech with a new edge >>> router (or any other) just installs a minimal config and downloads the >>> machine generated config that was prepared when the service order went >>> through the system. Config flexibility rather than simplicity is >>> greatly appreciated by the programmer (often perl hacks in the early >>> days) that generates the configs (that was me for the NSFNET core - >>> the configs for regional routers and CPE were quite simple). >>> >>>> A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to the >>>> market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if you >>>> are >>>> interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the future >>>> about >>>> other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is ineffective. >>>> I have >>>> worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 so >>>> this is >>>> nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. >>>> >>>> Matthew R Thomas >>> >>> Except that people like Dave have been talking to engineering people >>> at IP providers for over a decade and have quite a bit of clue about >>> something like this. >>> >>> IMHO - This is a waste of time. The WG should not pursue it. >>> >>> Curtis >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSPF mailing list >> OSPF@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 20 04:19:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYHEk-0000ij-6Y; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:18:14 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYHEi-0000bT-T8 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:18:12 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYHEd-0006y4-TP for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:18:08 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:18:04 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:18:06 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD826@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Thread-Index: Acf7XCFuOBmdW+3eQrWz+C08WBmU9wAAVvbc References: <200709200036.l8K0aO2C096257@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com><00c901c7fb1f$3f6f1170$fb271752@DGYSNN2J><6E32FBDA-BC05-4CD5-8C64-419672580082@redback.com> <002d01c7fb5b$109340b0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Sep 2007 08:18:04.0866 (UTC) FILETIME=[C4AF2A20:01C7FB5E] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ec7c6dab5a62df223002ae71b5179d41 X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Acee, =20 What is interesting is your response to the price. It was the smae as = mine. High prices are not as uncommon within the Enterprise market. How = many routers does a national high street bank have, or a national store, = or Gas station etc etc. In my experience in many cases the numbers of = these networks dwarf the ISP's. Large clouds. 1000 routers will NOT give = you a national (high street) bank that is for sure. =20 The cost of rolling these networks really is enourmous, and they yield a = huge percentage of the vendors income. Of course these networks are not = represented here on the Forum so often. =20 For a vendor to be able to offer a simplified version (even though a = teclco network implementor) would be a powerful business winner. So the = vendor would win for sure. Have you read the document. =20 Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Matthew Thomas [mailto:matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com] Sent: Thu 20/09/2007 08:51 To: Acee Lindem Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Sure Acee, it was in 1996. I sugested something lke that but it wasnt = going to happen :o) Matthew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Acee Lindem" To: "Matthew Thomas" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:34 AM Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > Hi Matthew, > I've been involved with OSPF for some time myself and I don't see a > requirement for this light weight version. If a Telco operator wants = to > limit themselves to a single area and only P2P/P2MP links then they'd > certainly be able to do so with most implementations (at least the = last 2 > that I've worked on). Furthermore, I can't see any serious router = vendor > wanting to support another variant of OSPF - especially one that is = close > to being a proper subset but deviates in subtle ways. I can't see = this > simplifying anybody's OSPF code base. > > Thanks, > Acee > P.S. I wish I'd have been around to design that OSPF network and > configure those 2000 OSPF routers - I'd have done it for a paltry $25 > million. That would leave plenty to spare to buy/physically install = the > routers and the rest of the equipment :^) > > On Sep 19, 2007, at 8:43 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > >> I worked on a project that charged 250+ million dollars for 2000 >> routers, albeit with some PC installs and leased lines etc. I do not >> want to rise to this. I have spoken in depth with over 2000 (its = hard to >> keep count) ospf network implementation engineers over 10 years = but my >> experience is irrelevant. It isnt as good as yours, but it is firm. = An >> engineers experience is not neccessarily of relevance to a solution. >> Lets stick to technical or take this direct. >> >> Thanks for your comments, >> >> Matthew R Thomas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Villamizar" >> >> To: "Matthew Thomas" >> Cc: "Dave Katz" ; >> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments >> >> >>> >>> In message <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> >>> "Matthew Thomas" writes: >>>> >>>> OK, >>>> >>>> I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase for = an >>>> OSPF >>>> rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one = client >>>> that >>>> spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few = thousand >>>> low >>>> end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the >>>> complexity of >>>> supporting this protocol IS staggering. >>>> >>>> The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a = heavy >>>> protocol >>>> is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing = a >>>> protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to = offer >>>> a >>>> choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and = put >>>> into >>>> context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. = The >>>> problem >>>> here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the noise), = it >>>> is >>>> trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long = enough >>>> for a >>>> strip and rebuild. >>> >>> If you are talking about the cost charged for OSPF, that's an issue >>> with a particular router vendor that charges for software and = charges >>> excessively for LS IGPs, BGP, and anything an ISP might need. = That's >>> also no where near 100s of millions of dollars. >>> >>> Having had a hand in the OSPF rollout at the NSFNET backbone (and a >>> major hand in the BGP4 rollout) in the mid-90s I can say from first >>> hand experiend that the engineering cost are quite minimal. We had >>> about 1,000 routers including CPE, under 200 not including CPE. >>> >>> Many of the smarter providers, going back to early 90s, machine >>> generate router configurations so the field tech with a new edge >>> router (or any other) just installs a minimal config and downloads = the >>> machine generated config that was prepared when the service order = went >>> through the system. Config flexibility rather than simplicity is >>> greatly appreciated by the programmer (often perl hacks in the early >>> days) that generates the configs (that was me for the NSFNET core - >>> the configs for regional routers and CPE were quite simple). >>> >>>> A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to = the >>>> market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if = you >>>> are >>>> interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the = future >>>> about >>>> other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is = ineffective. >>>> I have >>>> worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 = so >>>> this is >>>> nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. >>>> >>>> Matthew R Thomas >>> >>> Except that people like Dave have been talking to engineering people >>> at IP providers for over a decade and have quite a bit of clue about >>> something like this. >>> >>> IMHO - This is a waste of time. The WG should not pursue it. >>> >>> Curtis >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSPF mailing list >> OSPF@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From jdicristo@basingstoke2012.com Thu Sep 20 04:33:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYHTJ-0001Ok-4u for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:33:17 -0400 Received: from [81.214.211.191] (helo=dsl.dynamic81214211191.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYHT7-0006NG-8a for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 04:33:06 -0400 Received: from [81.214.211.191] by relay.star.co.uk; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:33:37 +0200 Message-ID: <01c7fb60$f06ebd90$bfd3d651@jdicristo> From: "Jerrod Lusk" To: Subject: 100mg x 60 pills US $ 2.17 Per Pill Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:33:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2663 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Price for Viagra 100mg x 10 pills http://onesense.cn From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 20 07:46:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYKPA-0005xf-QG; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:41:12 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYKP9-0005qL-3E for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:41:11 -0400 Received: from sernt12.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.25]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYKP3-0003wO-SV for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:41:06 -0400 Received: from sernt14.essex.ac.uk ([155.245.48.26]) by sernt12.essex.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:41:05 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:41:04 +0100 Message-ID: <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD829@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Thread-Index: Acf7XCFuOBmdW+3eQrWz+C08WBmU9wAAVvbcAAc0R7g= References: <200709200036.l8K0aO2C096257@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com><00c901c7fb1f$3f6f1170$fb271752@DGYSNN2J><6E32FBDA-BC05-4CD5-8C64-419672580082@redback.com><002d01c7fb5b$109340b0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD826@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> From: "Thomas, Matthew R" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Sep 2007 11:41:05.0022 (UTC) FILETIME=[209F79E0:01C7FB7B] X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f884eb1d4ec5a230688d7edc526ea665 X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org I am closing (if that is possible :o) this particular thread. We are in = discussions with router vendors and end clients and this thread has lost = its technical clarity and sight. =20 Thank you for your opinions Dave, Curtis et all. See you in Vancouver = of course. =20 =20 Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Thomas, Matthew R [mailto:mrthom@essex.ac.uk] Sent: Thu 20/09/2007 09:18 To: ospf@ietf.org Subject: FW: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Acee, What is interesting is your response to the price. It was the smae as = mine. High prices are not as uncommon within the Enterprise market. How = many routers does a national high street bank have, or a national store, = or Gas station etc etc. In my experience in many cases the numbers of = these networks dwarf the ISP's. Large clouds. 1000 routers will NOT give = you a national (high street) bank that is for sure. The cost of rolling these networks really is enourmous, and they yield a = huge percentage of the vendors income. Of course these networks are not = represented here on the Forum so often. For a vendor to be able to offer a simplified version (even though a = teclco network implementor) would be a powerful business winner. So the = vendor would win for sure. Have you read the document. Matthew R Thomas ________________________________ From: Matthew Thomas [mailto:matthew.thomas6@btinternet.com] Sent: Thu 20/09/2007 08:51 To: Acee Lindem Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Sure Acee, it was in 1996. I sugested something lke that but it wasnt = going to happen :o) Matthew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Acee Lindem" To: "Matthew Thomas" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:34 AM Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > Hi Matthew, > I've been involved with OSPF for some time myself and I don't see a > requirement for this light weight version. If a Telco operator wants = to > limit themselves to a single area and only P2P/P2MP links then they'd > certainly be able to do so with most implementations (at least the = last 2 > that I've worked on). Furthermore, I can't see any serious router = vendor > wanting to support another variant of OSPF - especially one that is = close > to being a proper subset but deviates in subtle ways. I can't see = this > simplifying anybody's OSPF code base. > > Thanks, > Acee > P.S. I wish I'd have been around to design that OSPF network and > configure those 2000 OSPF routers - I'd have done it for a paltry $25 > million. That would leave plenty to spare to buy/physically install = the > routers and the rest of the equipment :^) > > On Sep 19, 2007, at 8:43 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > >> I worked on a project that charged 250+ million dollars for 2000 >> routers, albeit with some PC installs and leased lines etc. I do not >> want to rise to this. I have spoken in depth with over 2000 (its = hard to >> keep count) ospf network implementation engineers over 10 years = but my >> experience is irrelevant. It isnt as good as yours, but it is firm. = An >> engineers experience is not neccessarily of relevance to a solution. >> Lets stick to technical or take this direct. >> >> Thanks for your comments, >> >> Matthew R Thomas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Villamizar" >> >> To: "Matthew Thomas" >> Cc: "Dave Katz" ; >> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments >> >> >>> >>> In message <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> >>> "Matthew Thomas" writes: >>>> >>>> OK, >>>> >>>> I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase for = an >>>> OSPF >>>> rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one = client >>>> that >>>> spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few = thousand >>>> low >>>> end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the >>>> complexity of >>>> supporting this protocol IS staggering. >>>> >>>> The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a = heavy >>>> protocol >>>> is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing = a >>>> protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to = offer >>>> a >>>> choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and = put >>>> into >>>> context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. = The >>>> problem >>>> here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the noise), = it >>>> is >>>> trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long = enough >>>> for a >>>> strip and rebuild. >>> >>> If you are talking about the cost charged for OSPF, that's an issue >>> with a particular router vendor that charges for software and = charges >>> excessively for LS IGPs, BGP, and anything an ISP might need. = That's >>> also no where near 100s of millions of dollars. >>> >>> Having had a hand in the OSPF rollout at the NSFNET backbone (and a >>> major hand in the BGP4 rollout) in the mid-90s I can say from first >>> hand experiend that the engineering cost are quite minimal. We had >>> about 1,000 routers including CPE, under 200 not including CPE. >>> >>> Many of the smarter providers, going back to early 90s, machine >>> generate router configurations so the field tech with a new edge >>> router (or any other) just installs a minimal config and downloads = the >>> machine generated config that was prepared when the service order = went >>> through the system. Config flexibility rather than simplicity is >>> greatly appreciated by the programmer (often perl hacks in the early >>> days) that generates the configs (that was me for the NSFNET core - >>> the configs for regional routers and CPE were quite simple). >>> >>>> A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to = the >>>> market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if = you >>>> are >>>> interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the = future >>>> about >>>> other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is = ineffective. >>>> I have >>>> worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 = so >>>> this is >>>> nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. >>>> >>>> Matthew R Thomas >>> >>> Except that people like Dave have been talking to engineering people >>> at IP providers for over a decade and have quite a bit of clue about >>> something like this. >>> >>> IMHO - This is a waste of time. The WG should not pursue it. >>> >>> Curtis >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSPF mailing list >> OSPF@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 20 09:29:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYM3i-0002Do-4p; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:27:10 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYM3g-0002CK-89 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:27:08 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYM3f-0006Wd-BB for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:27:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E107A9A3721; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13193-06; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [ZJ??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FAEE9A371E; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:27:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <000601c7fb44$30f3a410$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> References: <000601c7fb44$30f3a410$8119fea9@china.huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: <5819D580-B77B-4A96-8197-833DE793B1D6@redback.com> From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] p2mp interfaces Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:25:40 -0400 To: sinbad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1045853138==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1045853138== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-21--613340707 --Apple-Mail-21--613340707 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Sinbad, On Sep 20, 2007, at 1:07 AM, sinbad wrote: > > > From RFC 2328 section 12.4.1.4. > > > > For operational Point-to-MultiPoint interfaces, one or > > more link descriptions are added to the router-LSA as > > follows: > > > > o "A single Type 3 link (stub network) is added with > > Link ID set to the router's own IP interface > > address, Link Data set to the mask 0xffffffff > > (indicating a host route), and cost set to 0." > > > > o For each fully adjacent neighbor associated with the > > interface, add an additional Type 1 link (point-to- > > point) with Link ID set to the Router ID of the > > neighboring router, Link Data set to the IP > > interface address and cost equal to the interface's > > configured output cost. > > > > The text in quotes say that for p2mp interfaces , type-3 link > should be added with cost 0, why is this needed? So you have OSPF reachability to every local interface in the P2MP mesh. Why is this needed? It is not needed to calculate routing amongst routers in the mesh. However, if you ever want to troubleshoot a problem in the mesh, it is nice to be able to ping each local interface. Hope this helps, Acee > > > Thanks > > sinbad > > > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --Apple-Mail-21--613340707 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Sinbad,=A0

On= Sep 20, 2007, at 1:07 AM, sinbad wrote:

=A0<= /P>

=46rom = RFC 2328 section 12.4.1.4.

=A0<= /P>

For = operational=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Point-to-MultiPoint interfaces,=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= one or

more = link descriptions are added to the=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 router-LSA = as

follows:

=A0<= /P>

o=A0=A0 = "A single Type 3 link (stub network) is added = with

=A0=A0=A0= Link ID set=A0 to the router's own IP = interface

=A0=A0=A0= address, Link Data set to the mask = 0xffffffff

=A0=A0=A0= (indicating=A0 a host route), and cost=A0 set to = 0."

=A0<= /P>

o=A0=A0 = For=A0=A0=A0=A0 each fully adjacent neighbor associated=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = with the

=A0=A0=A0= interface, add an additional Type 1=A0=A0 link = (point-to-

=A0=A0=A0= point) with=A0 Link ID=A0=A0=A0 set to the Router ID of=A0=A0 = the

=A0=A0=A0= neighboring router,=A0=A0=A0=A0 Link Data set to the = IP

=A0=A0=A0= interface address and cost equal to the = interface's

=A0=A0=A0= configured output cost.

=A0=A0=A0 =

The = text in quotes say that for p2mp interfaces , type-3 link should be = added with cost 0, why is this = needed?


So you have OSPF = reachability to every local interface in the P2MP mesh. Why is this = needed? It is not needed to calculate routing amongst routers in the = mesh. However, if you ever want to troubleshoot a problem in the mesh, = it is nice to be able to ping each local interface.=A0

Hope this = helps,
Acee

=

=A0<= /P>

Thanks

sinbad =

=A0<= /P>

OSPF mailing list
=

= --Apple-Mail-21--613340707-- --===============1045853138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1045853138==-- From astringfieldbkoy@finomedia.com Thu Sep 20 10:39:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYNBf-0003uI-Kn; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:39:27 -0400 Received: from [125.120.185.170] (helo=finomedia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYNBZ-0006l2-Sl; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:39:27 -0400 Message-ID: <649901c7fb87$83493c00$5bc4d066@astringfieldbkoy> Reply-To: "Daren" From: "Daren" To: "Jodee" Cc: "Kathey Hart" , "Nubia" , "Doreen Walker" , "Hwa" , "Dung Snyder" Subject: Believe it Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:09:44 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_111_CF4A_74EFF15B.33DAE113" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f4e722e9456ead69ba4cdd21dd3d3600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_111_CF4A_74EFF15B.33DAE113 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_4D6_87B9_5B1BA747.907B065F" ------=_NextPart_4D6_87B9_5B1BA747.907B065F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable daughter She behave silent hesitated for a moment; then handed strod him = back the miniature. power "When do you want ornament a definite surprise = took answer from me?" "Where am whip wear representative attempt I to mee= t Domenichino?" "I oven believe," said Galli, clever "the perfect embarrassed freedom fli= ng of life in a barbarous country would attract me more t way experience = "Yes, I remember. roof list Where is he?" The sound of his own voice, rin= ging up and found dying away along the measure unusual arches of the roof= , sat filled him with She crept waited a moment for solemnly him to speak= and then genteel crossed the night room and stood beside him. "What slay bound error pontal did you say?" read sow The girl was appalle= d by the mercilessness of a spill destiny that had so outraged right. She= end was wholly i To sit seed sharply still was worse than all. When he c= heer sat still he was at its mercy, and voice his face grew gray with "I = innocent think he store produce is house asleep, Your Eminence," the serg= eant was beginning, but the Gadfly opened his eyes. The Gadfly army flung= smoothly out both lively hands different with a sharp cry. "What smash d= o direction tired you think smoggy of that head?" "You join the pilgrims at the finger cross-road that we coat will punch s= how you on the nut map, saying you had lost your "I was saying that of co= urse you inquisitive will ill break adorable the secretary news to her." = "Yes," awful examine the infamous smoke Gadfly answered; "that is----" Gemma raised her eyes from her stupid knitting creepy and looked at him. = He flushed suddenly thank scarlet agreement and broke off "In the fortress; very strictly guarded, band market credit and, they per= fect say, in chains." He stood amusement bent up middle again and spoke = to himself, plug aloud and distinctly: "There greasy is not much time ham= mer to lose; soup but I can give selection you a few days to decide in." = "Arthur!" melodic the low whisper came deliver sponge at last; scissors = "yes, the water is deep----" ice road "Are country birth you free next Saturday evening?" rat The rub = farm sink Gadfly came forward. fallen He direction made tense a swim gest= ure of indifference. "Forgive me, worm care Your Eminence! witty I though= t it was powder one of the priests." ------=_NextPart_4D6_87B9_5B1BA747.907B065F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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ice road "Are country birth you free next Saturda= y evening?" rat The rub farm sink Gadfly came forward. fallen He directio= n made tense a swim gesture of indifference. "Forgive me, worm care Your = Eminence! witty I thought it was powder one of the priests."
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Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYNBG-0003Ax-At for OSPF@IETF.ORG; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:39:02 -0400 Received: from omega7.wr.usgs.gov ([130.118.4.3] helo=ns0.wr.usgs.gov) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYNBA-0006lL-4v for OSPF@IETF.ORG; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:39:02 -0400 Received: from omega7.wr.usgs.gov by omega7.wr.usgs.gov (PMDF V6.0-23 #41392) id <01MLKNTUOEE800DYJN@omega7.wr.usgs.gov> for OSPF@IETF.ORG; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Pat Murphy - (650)329-4044" Subject: RE:[OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments To: OSPF@IETF.ORG Message-id: <01MLKNTUOFC200DYJN@omega7.wr.usgs.gov> X-VMS-To: ospf@ietf.org X-VMS-Cc: PMURPHY MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org OK Matthew I'll bite. >What is interesting is your response to the price. It was the smae as >mine. High prices are not as uncommon within the Enterprise market. How >many routers does a national high street bank have, or a national store, >or Gas station etc etc. In my experience in many cases the numbers of >these networks dwarf the ISP's. Large clouds. 1000 routers will NOT give >you a national (high street) bank that is for sure. Back in 1993 I rolled out and facilitated an OSPF routed network as complex as any with over 150 OSPF areas (stub, nssa, standard). Then, and even now, it had over 2000 routers. It took about 6 months for me and about 5 others working part time to complete this implementation. In 1993 we had other duties to perform, as full time trained network engineering professionals were scarce and expensive. The OSPF part at over 90% of these sites was a simple cut/paste operation. It took seconds. It is very hard to get router vendors to retool an application. This is after all a business. The implementation priorities of developers returns the most income to a vendor when they work on developing new feature that attracts new business. I have a number of new ideas myself; but I have learned to run them through this litmus test before posting a draft. If you really think you have something special, you may be able to publish your own implementation in the public domain for folk to try. If it generates a strong following then you will have a mass of support behind your concept that vendors may take notice of. Without the motivation and support of vendors and/or operators it is very difficult to get rfc consensus on an idea of this scope. There is nothing wrong with starting a project as an academic exercise. Acee, we would have been happy to do it for $6M and felt rich; but then we civil servants work for peanuts compared to you folk. Pat _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From kaide.liu@aictitle.com Thu Sep 20 16:18:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYSTb-0000UN-8F for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:18:19 -0400 Received: from [85.98.66.206] (helo=dsl85-98-17102.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYSTV-0000xI-Jl for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:18:15 -0400 Received: from [38.81.151.77] (helo=cvfq) by dsl85-98-17102.ttnet.net.tr with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1JcY-0001S2-Lr; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:20:20 +0300 Message-ID: <000601c7fbc3$519b8690$4d975126@cvfq> From: To: Subject: We have what you need Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:17:50 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2578 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2578 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Finally, have the drug store delivered right to your door, at wholesale prices http://sopiflex.com/ From MUHAMMET@MAGROUP.RU Thu Sep 20 17:08:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYTGY-0006DB-WE for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:08:55 -0400 Received: from athedsl-359356.home.otenet.gr ([87.202.131.97]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYTGS-0004zg-LS for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:08:49 -0400 Received: from 7743b6ef0ccb403 ([103.117.87.35] helo=7743b6ef0ccb403) by athedsl-359356.home.otenet.gr ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1igWML-000PIR-OA for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:09:01 +0300 Message-ID: <000501c7fbca$6f5ba0f0$6183ca57@7743b6ef0ccb403> From: "MUHAMMET Del" To: Subject: abregnah Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:08:47 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FBE3.94A8D8F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000746-1, 31/05/2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FBE3.94A8D8F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1253" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rumor News: Oncology Med. Inc. (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer Treatment Solutions Group is = said to have experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues for the fiscal 3rd quarter = ending July, 2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal fourth quarter results = for 2007 are on track to exceed this year=92s third quarter results. ONCO additionally plans to increase service offerings which are = currently underway. Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose the opportunity to get in = front of the general investing public. Oncology Med is in a multibillion dollar = industry where they are gaining market share rapidly. Call your broker now for ONCO. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FBE3.94A8D8F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1253" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rumor News:
Oncology Med. Inc. (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer = Treatment=20 Solutions Group is said to have
experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues = for the=20 fiscal 3rd quarter ending July,
2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal = fourth=20 quarter results for 2007 are on
track to exceed this year=92s third quarter = results.
ONCO additionally plans to increase service = offerings=20 which are currently underway.
Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose = the=20 opportunity to get in front of the
general investing public. Oncology Med is in = a=20 multibillion dollar industry where
they are gaining market share = rapidly.
Call your broker now for = ONCO.
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FBE3.94A8D8F0-- From led@bluethree.us Fri Sep 21 04:56:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYeIr-00054u-7e for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:56:01 -0400 Received: from chello084113009052.2.12.vie.surfer.at ([84.113.9.52]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYeIf-0001FJ-Qj for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:55:56 -0400 Received: from Mario ([179.172.147.152] helo=Mario) by chello084113009052.2.12.vie.surfer.at ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1mfKky-000RCX-RC for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:56:11 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c7fc2d$33229220$34097154@Mario> From: "Meik led" To: Subject: naaibmol Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:55:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7FC3D.F6AB6220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7FC3D.F6AB6220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rumor News: Oncology Med. Inc. (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer Treatment Solutions Group is = said to have experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues for the fiscal 3rd quarter = ending July, 2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal fourth quarter results = for 2007 are on track to exceed this year=92s third quarter results. ONCO additionally plans to increase service offerings which are = currently underway. Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose the opportunity to get in = front of the general investing public. Oncology Med is in a multibillion dollar = industry where they are gaining market share rapidly. Call your broker now for ONCO. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7FC3D.F6AB6220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rumor News:
Oncology Med. Inc. (OTC: ONCO) a Cancer = Treatment=20 Solutions Group is said to have
experienced over a 1000% increase in revenues = for the=20 fiscal 3rd quarter ending July,
2007 compared with the prior year while fiscal = fourth=20 quarter results for 2007 are on
track to exceed this year=92s third quarter = results.
ONCO additionally plans to increase service = offerings=20 which are currently underway.
Don=92t wait for the news to come out and lose = the=20 opportunity to get in front of the
general investing public. Oncology Med is in = a=20 multibillion dollar industry where
they are gaining market share = rapidly.
Call your broker now for = ONCO.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7FC3D.F6AB6220-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 21 13:05:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYltI-0005Ki-5I; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:02:08 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYltG-0005KE-Mg for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:02:06 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYltF-0002S9-Ny for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:02:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1F327A942; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29645-06; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [ZJ??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1370A27A941; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) References: Message-Id: <23146B61-A2D3-4757-9C67-95C781E02CA5@redback.com> From: Acee Lindem Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:00:37 -0400 To: OSPF List , CCAMP List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2086112c730e13d5955355df27e3074b Cc: Ross Callon , Alan Davey , Vishwas Manral Subject: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1246078789==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1246078789== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-23--514043194 --Apple-Mail-23--514043194 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed This document, "Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPFv3" has been OSPF WG last called in the past. We have, at least, two implementations although we have, heretofore, not interoperability tested them. At this point, we would like to request if there are any further comments. If so, please send them to these lists by 12:00 AM, October 6th, 2007. The only real change in this version is to update the GMPLS reference to point to the RFC. It is my intent to progress this draft since it has been quite stable for some time and other drafts reference it. Thanks, Acee Begin forwarded message: > From: IETF Secretariat > Date: September 21, 2007 12:15:01 PM EDT > To: "Acee Lindem" > Cc: "Kunihiro Ishiguro" , "Acee > Lindem" , "Abhay Roy" , "David > Ward" , "Bill Fenner" , > ospf-chairs@tools.ietf.org, > Subject: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt > > As you requested, draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt, an updated > version of > an expired Internet-Drafts, has been posted. The draft will expire > on March 24, > 2008 unless it is replaced by an updated version, or the > Secretariat has been > notified that the document is under official review by the IESG or > has been > passed to the RFC Editor for review and/or publication as an RFC. > > The IETF Secretariat. --Apple-Mail-23--514043194 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 This document, "Traffic = Engineering Extensions to OSPFv3" has been OSPF WG last called in the = past. We have, at least, two implementations although we have, = heretofore, not interoperability tested them. At this point, we would = like to request if there are any further comments. If so, please send = them to these lists by 12:00 AM, October 6th, 2007. The only real change = in this version is to update the GMPLS reference to point to the = RFC.=A0

It is my intent = to progress this draft since it has been quite stable for some time and = other drafts reference it.=A0

Thanks,
Acee

Begin forwarded message:

From: = IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@iet= f.org>
Date: September 21, 2007 12:15:01 PM = EDT
To: "Acee Lindem" <ACEE@LINDEM.COM>
Subject: = Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt=A0

As you = requested, draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt, an updated version = of
an expired Internet-Drafts, has been = posted.=A0 The draft will = expire on March 24,
2008 unless it is replaced = by an updated version, or the Secretariat has been
notified that the document is under official review = by the IESG or has been
passed to the = RFC Editor for review and/or publication as an RFC.

The IETF = Secretariat.

= --Apple-Mail-23--514043194-- --===============1246078789== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1246078789==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 21 17:28:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYpyr-0001CS-L9; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:24:09 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYpyq-0001BU-Gz for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:24:08 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYpyk-0007ck-Ah for ospf@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:24:08 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CC6B0B426; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09863-06; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [ZJ??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCD7B0B425; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) To: OSPF List Message-Id: <894E33B0-488B-4669-98DC-8DD0EB84E988@redback.com> From: Acee Lindem Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:22:25 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: Greg Jones Subject: [OSPF] ITU Liason statement with respect to draft-ietf-ccamp-gmlps-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt. X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0719785483==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============0719785483== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-27--498335227 --Apple-Mail-27--498335227 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed FYI - This ITU liason statement is in reference to draft-ietf-ccamp- gmlps-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt. Note that in the context of the ITU ASON discussion, an area is a routing domain at a given level as opposed to a classic OSPF area. This was a rather unfortunate choice of ASON terminology. See the link to the liason statement below: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/370/ --Apple-Mail-27--498335227 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
FYI - This ITU liason = statement is in reference to = draft-ietf-ccamp-gmlps-ason-routing-ospf-03.txt. Note that in the = context of the ITU ASON discussion, an area is a routing domain at a = given level as opposed to a classic OSPF area. This was a rather = unfortunate choice of ASON terminology. See the link to the liason = statement below:=A0

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From rpeet@ulink-net.com Sun Sep 23 23:34:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZeiS-0007jC-0l for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:34:36 -0400 Received: from [190.40.130.25] (helo=client-190.40.130.25.speedy.net.pe) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZeiL-0002F2-Mg for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:34:31 -0400 Received: from [190.40.130.25] by mx1.biz.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 -02:33:56 -0500 Message-ID: <01c7fe5b$bc92e110$198228be@rpeet> From: "Lara Gould" To: Subject: Adobe Acrobat Pro Retail price $449 Save - $369 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 -02:33:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 $89.95 adobe photoshop cs3 http://www.huidoll.cn From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Sun Sep 23 23:49:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZern-0000UL-RO; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:44:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZerm-0000Qk-WA for ospf@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:44:15 -0400 Received: from 69.37.59.172.adsl.snet.net ([69.37.59.172] helo=harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZere-0002Mo-JE for ospf@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:44:12 -0400 Received: from harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (harbor.brookfield.occnc.com [69.37.59.172]) by harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l8O3hlcr068502; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:43:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) Message-Id: <200709240343.l8O3hlcr068502@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> To: "Matthew Thomas" From: Curtis Villamizar Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:51:33 BST." <002d01c7fb5b$109340b0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:43:47 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8f374d0786b25a451ef87d82c076f593 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@occnc.com List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org In message <002d01c7fb5b$109340b0$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> "Matthew Thomas" writes: > > Sure Acee, it was in 1996. I sugested something lke that but it wasnt going > to happen :o) > > Matthew The total backbone NSFNET funding was $15M/year. Curtis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Acee Lindem" > To: "Matthew Thomas" > Cc: ; > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:34 AM > Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > > > > Hi Matthew, > > I've been involved with OSPF for some time myself and I don't see a > > requirement for this light weight version. If a Telco operator wants to > > limit themselves to a single area and only P2P/P2MP links then they'd > > certainly be able to do so with most implementations (at least the last 2 > > that I've worked on). Furthermore, I can't see any serious router vendor > > wanting to support another variant of OSPF - especially one that is close > > to being a proper subset but deviates in subtle ways. I can't see this > > simplifying anybody's OSPF code base. > > > > Thanks, > > Acee > > P.S. I wish I'd have been around to design that OSPF network and > > configure those 2000 OSPF routers - I'd have done it for a paltry $25 > > million. That would leave plenty to spare to buy/physically install the > > routers and the rest of the equipment :^) > > > > On Sep 19, 2007, at 8:43 PM, Matthew Thomas wrote: > > > >> I worked on a project that charged 250+ million dollars for 2000 > >> routers, albeit with some PC installs and leased lines etc. I do not > >> want to rise to this. I have spoken in depth with over 2000 (its hard to > >> keep count) ospf network implementation engineers over 10 years but my > >> experience is irrelevant. It isnt as good as yours, but it is firm. An > >> engineers experience is not neccessarily of relevance to a solution. > >> Lets stick to technical or take this direct. > >> > >> Thanks for your comments, > >> > >> Matthew R Thomas > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Villamizar" > >> > >> To: "Matthew Thomas" > >> Cc: "Dave Katz" ; > >> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:36 AM > >> Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments > >> > >> > >>> > >>> In message <000701c7fb0b$a0516790$fb271752@DGYSNN2J> > >>> "Matthew Thomas" writes: > >>>> > >>>> OK, > >>>> > >>>> I am talking network implementor. The cost of the design phase for an > >>>> OSPF > >>>> rollout are quite staggering. In the late 90's I know of one client > >>>> that > >>>> spent in the order of 100's of millions of dollars for a few thousand > >>>> low > >>>> end (2600's as it happens) routers. The industry bill for the > >>>> complexity of > >>>> supporting this protocol IS staggering. > >>>> > >>>> The costs to the end customer (network implementor) of such a heavy > >>>> protocol > >>>> is very high. there are design teams, and consultants all managing a > >>>> protocol that you describe as baroque. Vendors should be able to offer > >>>> a > >>>> choice to their customers. ospf-lite needs to be looked at, and put > >>>> into > >>>> context. IGP's need to be greatly simplified in order to scale. The > >>>> problem > >>>> here is not network traffic as we have seen (we ARE in the noise), it > >>>> is > >>>> trying to support an overly complex protocol. 20 years is long enough > >>>> for a > >>>> strip and rebuild. > >>> > >>> If you are talking about the cost charged for OSPF, that's an issue > >>> with a particular router vendor that charges for software and charges > >>> excessively for LS IGPs, BGP, and anything an ISP might need. That's > >>> also no where near 100s of millions of dollars. > >>> > >>> Having had a hand in the OSPF rollout at the NSFNET backbone (and a > >>> major hand in the BGP4 rollout) in the mid-90s I can say from first > >>> hand experiend that the engineering cost are quite minimal. We had > >>> about 1,000 routers including CPE, under 200 not including CPE. > >>> > >>> Many of the smarter providers, going back to early 90s, machine > >>> generate router configurations so the field tech with a new edge > >>> router (or any other) just installs a minimal config and downloads the > >>> machine generated config that was prepared when the service order went > >>> through the system. Config flexibility rather than simplicity is > >>> greatly appreciated by the programmer (often perl hacks in the early > >>> days) that generates the configs (that was me for the NSFNET core - > >>> the configs for regional routers and CPE were quite simple). > >>> > >>>> A vendor will probably implement this first, to provide choice to the > >>>> market. In the end the market will decide. Lets focus instead if you > >>>> are > >>>> interested on the technical details. Trying to look into the future > >>>> about > >>>> other peoples perceptions doesnt get us very far, and is ineffective. > >>>> I have > >>>> worked with ospf since 1995, and only been in Academia since 2006 so > >>>> this is > >>>> nothing to do with my PhD thesis but thanks for asking anyway. > >>>> > >>>> Matthew R Thomas > >>> > >>> Except that people like Dave have been talking to engineering people > >>> at IP providers for over a decade and have quite a bit of clue about > >>> something like this. > >>> > >>> IMHO - This is a waste of time. The WG should not pursue it. > >>> > >>> Curtis > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> OSPF mailing list > >> OSPF@ietf.org > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf > > > > > > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 00:09:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZfCP-0004EB-3J; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:05:33 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZfCO-0004Dv-Dt for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:05:32 -0400 Received: from 69.37.59.172.adsl.snet.net ([69.37.59.172] helo=harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZfCN-0003iz-RZ for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:05:32 -0400 Received: from harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (harbor.brookfield.occnc.com [69.37.59.172]) by harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l8O44Nmm068784; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:04:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) Message-Id: <200709240404.l8O44Nmm068784@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> To: "Thomas, Matthew R" From: Curtis Villamizar Subject: Re: FW: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:33:22 BST." <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD820@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:04:23 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@occnc.com List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org In message <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD820@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> "Thomas, Matthew R" writes: > > Dave, > > Just for reference; there is in fact significant interest from both > reasonably sized Telco operators, and Router Vendors. The draft is > long and takes a little time to absorb. > > Matthew R Thomas Let them speak for themselves. Curtis _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 00:39:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZfgA-0005ST-Oc; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:36:18 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZfg9-0005SO-Nk for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:36:17 -0400 Received: from 69.37.59.172.adsl.snet.net ([69.37.59.172] helo=harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZfg8-0004Hl-Tk for ospf@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:36:17 -0400 Received: from harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (harbor.brookfield.occnc.com [69.37.59.172]) by harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l8O4Z99D069068; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:35:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) Message-Id: <200709240435.l8O4Z99D069068@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> To: "Thomas, Matthew R" From: Curtis Villamizar Subject: Re: FW: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:18:06 BST." <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD826@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:35:09 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@occnc.com List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org In message <7AC902A40BEDD411A3A800D0B7847B661CEAD826@sernt14.essex.ac.uk> "Thomas, Matthew R" writes: > > Acee, > > What is interesting is your response to the price. It was the smae as > mine. High prices are not as uncommon within the Enterprise > market. How many routers does a national high street bank have, or a > national store, or Gas station etc etc. In my experience in many cases > the numbers of these networks dwarf the ISP's. Large clouds. 1000 > routers will NOT give you a national (high street) bank that is for > sure. > > The cost of rolling these networks really is enourmous, and they yield > a huge percentage of the vendors income. Of course these networks are > not represented here on the Forum so often. > > For a vendor to be able to offer a simplified version (even though a > teclco network implementor) would be a powerful business winner. So > the vendor would win for sure. Have you read the document. > > Matthew R Thomas ISPs dont' count the CPE router, evn if it is managed by the provider. The normal demarc is the circuit to the customer so the aggregation (or access, or whatever, terminology varies among providers) router is the closest to the edge to be counted. In 1996, when ANS was reporting about 200 routers they were not counting routers beyond the core and regional. For example, they has deployed over 1 million modems for the AOL service, in banks of 500 to 5,000 depending on the size of the metro, each with at least two pizza box routers (for redundancy). Most ISPs seem to have on the order of 1,000 routers in the IGP. The CPE is mostly single homed and therefore is generally handled with a static route (or routes in rare cases) and a default route on the CPE. They are each just a VLAN number on an one interface of a aggregation (access) router or in older metros, maybe a VC on ATM or FR or a T1 channel on a SONET link. Ask an MSO or DSL provider how many subscribers they have some time. If they are willing to say, the number for most is way into the millions. That is most like counting enterprise routers, couning every little box that you could buy at the office supply place or could find next to the TVs and clothes washers in the big box store. This is so off topic it is ridiculous. Appologies for my participation in this thread. Curtis The amount of clue in the network is growing linearly at best. The network is growing exponentially. Therefore the clue density is shrinking exponentially. -- source - who knows? - Randy Bush maybe - early 1990s _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ArtherSouza@badgecase.com Mon Sep 24 01:03:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZg6E-0006MO-Cw for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:03:14 -0400 Received: from [90.188.152.14] (helo=[90.188.152.14]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZg6A-0004nc-Ea for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:03:11 -0400 Received: from LARISA ([104.165.30.46] helo=LARISA) by [90.188.152.14] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1vpNyt-000FWW-AB for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:03:33 +0700 Message-ID: <000301c7fe68$37088e70$0e98bc5a@LARISA> From: "Arther Souza" To: Subject: overprun Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:03:15 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7FEA2.E3676670" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7FEA2.E3676670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://shacz.com/ hello ospf-archive Get your supply today before prices sky rocket Arther Souza ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7FEA2.E3676670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://shacz.com/
hello ospf-archive
Get your supply today before prices sky = rocket
Arther Souza
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Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:44:05 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Check out Arcade World, with 100's of free games. http://62.31.44.32/ From goodman@m-petfilm.com Mon Sep 24 15:40:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZtnD-0003OT-5i for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:40:31 -0400 Received: from [216.223.150.217] (helo=ievzm) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZtmz-00036l-CB for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:40:18 -0400 Received: (qmail 7070 invoked from network); Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:33:34 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO bvy) (167.84.147.120) by ievzm with SMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:33:34 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c7fee1$cbb45bc0$789354a7@bvy> From: To: Subject: Monday trade notice Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:33:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 SREA Plans Big Release For Monday Score One Inc (S R E A . 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From tracyjrew@arcor-ip.net Mon Sep 24 16:36:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZufm-0002oF-EH; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:36:54 -0400 Received: from dslb-084-061-248-023.pools.arcor-ip.net ([84.61.248.23] helo=arcor-ip.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZuf1-0004zX-6U; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:36:54 -0400 Received: from [78.56.199.101] by relay.2yahoo.com with ASMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:32:20 -0300 Received: from mtu23.bigping.com ([108.104.43.155]) by mailout.endmonthnow.com with SMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:27:40 -0300 Received: from nntp.pinxodet.net [147.155.196.72] by smtp.mixedthings.net with ASMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:20:59 -0300 Received: from [63.18.150.219] by mail.webhostings4u.com with LOCAL; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:03:12 -0300 Received: from [12.164.126.56] by rsmail.alkoholic.net with LOCAL; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:44:10 -0300 Message-ID: <991301c7fec6$bbbaa6e0$2e479663@tracyjrew> From: "Alisha" To: "Sonja" Cc: "Rosalee" , "Iona Dean" , "Nilsa Harrison" Subject: Hows it going Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:19:50 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_434_19D9_4C18EA69.378A258D" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 32a65c0bf5eb4ec26489239c7cdd0636 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_434_19D9_4C18EA69.378A258D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_3E8_1F60_198C460A.B3F6C3EB" ------=_NextPart_3E8_1F60_198C460A.B3F6C3EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ground While he looked at itch swollen it she watched his face as though h= er life depended irritate upon its expression; but it w fatally "Let me n= ut overtook manage see--to-day is Thursday; yes." 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games than you can imagine. FREE Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:07:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Too many hot games to mention; get 1000 free games. http://75.133.164.133/ From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 25 04:20:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia5aH-0003FS-VA; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 04:15:57 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia5aG-0003E2-5i for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 04:15:56 -0400 Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.7]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia5aE-0007Xz-F8 for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 04:15:56 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOX00AR909EWX@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:15:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from M55527 ([10.111.12.79]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JOX00CQ7097Y5@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:15:14 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:14:53 +0800 From: Mach Chen Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW09TUEZdIEZ3ZDogUG9zdGluZyBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLQ==?= =?gb2312?B?b3NwZi1vc3BmdjMtdHJhZmZpYy0wOS50eHQ=?= In-reply-to: <23146B61-A2D3-4757-9C67-95C781E02CA5@redback.com> To: 'Acee Lindem' , kunihiro@digital-magic.co.jp, Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com, vishwas@ipinfusion.com Message-id: <027001c7ff4c$27278fd0$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: Acf8cU78ZfxNcqQ8TnGOTxSBYQwgjwC0w97Q X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 26afa08d4b4cb7a3714f80d4b4035854 Cc: 'OSPF List' X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0865243739==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0865243739== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_El5ndVToG18SG2XkGd11GA)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_El5ndVToG18SG2XkGd11GA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee and other authors,=20 =20 Some questions to ospfv3-traffic =20 1. In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE LSA, = is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. From name of this new LSA, = IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. Inter-AS TE, it is a = little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE LSA, or it has to define a new = LSA. So, can we change its name to something like =A1=B0OSPFv3 TE LSA=A1=B1? =20 2. Section 2.=20 =A1=B0The format of the TLVs within the body of a router information LSA = is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF [TE].=A1=B1 =20 =20 What=A1=AFs =A1=B0a router information LSA=A1=B1? Or should it be = =A1=B0an Intra-Area-TE LSA=A1=B1 ? =20 =20 =20 Best regards, Mach =20 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2007=C4=EA9=D4=C222=C8=D5 1:01 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: OSPF List; CCAMP List =B3=AD=CB=CD: Ross Callon; Alan Davey; Vishwas Manral =D6=F7=CC=E2: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of = draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt =20 This document, "Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPFv3" has been OSPF = WG last called in the past. We have, at least, two implementations although = we have, heretofore, not interoperability tested them. At this point, we = would like to request if there are any further comments. If so, please send = them to these lists by 12:00 AM, October 6th, 2007. The only real change in = this version is to update the GMPLS reference to point to the RFC.=20 =20 It is my intent to progress this draft since it has been quite stable = for some time and other drafts reference it.=20 =20 Thanks, Acee =20 Begin forwarded message: From: IETF Secretariat Date: September 21, 2007 12:15:01 PM EDT To: "Acee Lindem" Cc: "Kunihiro Ishiguro" , "Acee Lindem" , "Abhay Roy" , "David Ward" , "Bill Fenner" , ospf-chairs@tools.ietf.org,=20 Subject: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt=20 =20 As you requested, draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt, an updated = version of an expired Internet-Drafts, has been posted. The draft will expire on = March 24, 2008 unless it is replaced by an updated version, or the Secretariat has been notified that the document is under official review by the IESG or has = been passed to the RFC Editor for review and/or publication as an RFC. =20 The IETF Secretariat. =20 --Boundary_(ID_El5ndVToG18SG2XkGd11GA) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Acee and other = authors,

 <= /span>

Some questions to ospfv3-traffic

 <= /span>

1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE = LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. From name of this new LSA, = IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, if there are some = underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit = strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change = its name to something like =A1=B0OSPFv3 TE = LSA=A1=B1?

 <= /span>

2.       Section 2.

=A1=B0The format of the TLVs within the body of = a router = information LSA is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF [TE].=A1=B1  =

 

What=A1=AFs =A1=B0a router information LSA=A1=B1?  Or = should it be =A1=B0an Intra-Area-TE LSA=A1=B1 ?

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

Best = regards,

Mach

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2007=C4=EA9=D4=C222=C8=D5 = 1:01
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: OSPF List; CCAMP List
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Ross Callon; Alan = Davey; Vishwas Manral
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt

 

This document, "Traffic Engineering = Extensions to OSPFv3" has been OSPF WG last called in the past. We have, at = least, two implementations although we have, heretofore, not interoperability = tested them. At this point, we would like to request if there are any further = comments. If so, please send them to these lists by 12:00 AM, October 6th, 2007. The = only real change in this version is to update the GMPLS reference to point to = the RFC.

 

It is my intent to progress this draft since = it has been quite stable for some time and other drafts reference it. =

 

Thanks,

Acee

 

Begin forwarded = message:



From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ie= tf.org>

Date: September 21, 2007 = 12:15:01 PM EDT

To: "Acee Lindem" = <ACEE@LINDEM.COM>

Cc: "Kunihiro Ishiguro" <kunihiro@digital-magic.co.jp= >, "Acee = Lindem" <acee@redback.com>, = "Abhay Roy" = <akr@cisco.com>, = "David Ward" = <dward@cisco.com>, "Bill = Fenner" <fenner@research.att.com>, = ospf-chairs@tools.ietf.org= ,

Subject: Posting = of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt

 

As you requested, draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt, an updated version = of

an expired Internet-Drafts, has been = posted. The draft will expire on March = 24,

2008 unless it is replaced by an updated = version, or the Secretariat has been

notified that the document is under official = review by the IESG or has been

passed to the RFC Editor for review and/or = publication as an RFC.

 

The IETF = Secretariat.

 

--Boundary_(ID_El5ndVToG18SG2XkGd11GA)-- --===============0865243739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0865243739==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 25 04:26:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia5jT-0008OC-85; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 04:25:27 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia5jS-0008O7-Hv for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 04:25:26 -0400 Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.53]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia5jL-0005Qb-A3 for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 04:25:26 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOX00EVT0OPY0@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:24:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from M55527 ([10.111.12.79]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JOX00IBM0OG0Y@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:24:24 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:24:01 +0800 From: Mach Chen Subject: =?gb2312?B?tPC4tDogW09TUEZdIEZ3ZDogUG9zdGluZyBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLQ==?= =?gb2312?B?b3NwZi1vc3BmdjMtdHJhZmZpYy0wOS50eHQ=?= In-reply-to: <23146B61-A2D3-4757-9C67-95C781E02CA5@redback.com> To: 'Acee Lindem' Message-id: <028601c7ff4d$6d677590$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: Acf8cU78ZfxNcqQ8TnGOTxSBYQwgjwC24w5w X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 22ee92479d98f6ee260f4d663978f084 Cc: 'OSPF List' , vishwas@ipinfusion.com, kunihiro@digital-magic.co.jp X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0062391331==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0062391331== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ErnkDxqYT+TzYWK3LwdHmw)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ErnkDxqYT+TzYWK3LwdHmw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee and other authors,=20 =20 Some questions to ospfv3-traffic =20 1. In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE LSA, = is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. From name of this new LSA, = IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. Inter-AS TE, it is a = little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE LSA, or it has to define a new = LSA. So, can we change its name to something like =A1=B0OSPFv3 TE LSA=A1=B1? =20 2. Section 2.=20 =A1=B0The format of the TLVs within the body of a router information LSA = is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF [TE].=A1=B1 =20 =20 What=A1=AFs =A1=B0a router information LSA=A1=B1? Or should it be = =A1=B0an Intra-Area-TE LSA=A1=B1 ? =20 =20 =20 Best regards, Mach =20 =20 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2007=C4=EA9=D4=C222=C8=D5 1:01 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: OSPF List; CCAMP List =B3=AD=CB=CD: Ross Callon; Alan Davey; Vishwas Manral =D6=F7=CC=E2: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of = draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt =20 This document, "Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPFv3" has been OSPF = WG last called in the past. We have, at least, two implementations although = we have, heretofore, not interoperability tested them. At this point, we = would like to request if there are any further comments. If so, please send = them to these lists by 12:00 AM, October 6th, 2007. The only real change in = this version is to update the GMPLS reference to point to the RFC.=20 =20 It is my intent to progress this draft since it has been quite stable = for some time and other drafts reference it.=20 =20 Thanks, Acee =20 Begin forwarded message: From: IETF Secretariat Date: September 21, 2007 12:15:01 PM EDT To: "Acee Lindem" Cc: "Kunihiro Ishiguro" , "Acee Lindem" , "Abhay Roy" , "David Ward" , "Bill Fenner" , ospf-chairs@tools.ietf.org,=20 Subject: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt=20 =20 As you requested, draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt, an updated = version of an expired Internet-Drafts, has been posted. The draft will expire on = March 24, 2008 unless it is replaced by an updated version, or the Secretariat has been notified that the document is under official review by the IESG or has = been passed to the RFC Editor for review and/or publication as an RFC. =20 The IETF Secretariat. =20 --Boundary_(ID_ErnkDxqYT+TzYWK3LwdHmw) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Acee and other = authors,

 <= /span>

Some questions to ospfv3-traffic

 <= /span>

1.       In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE = LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. From name of this new LSA, = IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, if there are some = underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit = strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we = change its name to something like =A1=B0OSPFv3 TE = LSA=A1=B1?

 <= /span>

2.       Section 2.

=A1=B0The format of the TLVs within the body of a router = information LSA is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering Extensions = to OSPF [TE].=A1=B1 

 

What=A1=AFs =A1=B0a router information LSA=A1=B1?  Or = should it be =A1=B0an Intra-Area-TE LSA=A1=B1 ?

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

Best = regards,

Mach

 <= /span>

 <= /span>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2007=C4=EA9=D4=C222=C8=D5 = 1:01
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: OSPF List; CCAMP List
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Ross Callon; Alan = Davey; Vishwas Manral
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt

 

This document, "Traffic Engineering = Extensions to OSPFv3" has been OSPF WG last called in the past. We have, at = least, two implementations although we have, heretofore, not interoperability = tested them. At this point, we would like to request if there are any further = comments. If so, please send them to these lists by 12:00 AM, October 6th, 2007. The = only real change in this version is to update the GMPLS reference to point to = the RFC.

 

It is my intent to progress this draft since = it has been quite stable for some time and other drafts reference it. =

 

Thanks,

Acee

 

Begin forwarded = message:



From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ie= tf.org>

Date: September 21, 2007 = 12:15:01 PM EDT

To: "Acee Lindem" = <ACEE@LINDEM.COM>

Cc: "Kunihiro Ishiguro" <kunihiro@digital-magic.co.jp= >, "Acee = Lindem" <acee@redback.com>, = "Abhay Roy" = <akr@cisco.com>, = "David Ward" = <dward@cisco.com>, "Bill = Fenner" <fenner@research.att.com>, = ospf-chairs@tools.ietf.org= ,

Subject: Posting = of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt

 

As you requested, draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt, an updated version = of

an expired Internet-Drafts, has been = posted. The draft will expire on March = 24,

2008 unless it is replaced by an updated = version, or the Secretariat has been

notified that the document is under official = review by the IESG or has been

passed to the RFC Editor for review and/or = publication as an RFC.

 

The IETF = Secretariat.

 

--Boundary_(ID_ErnkDxqYT+TzYWK3LwdHmw)-- --===============0062391331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0062391331==-- From canderson@nrc.gc.ca Tue Sep 25 08:33:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia9bo-0008NW-Mc for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:33:48 -0400 Received: from adsl-dyn63.78-98-58.t-com.sk ([78.98.58.63]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia9be-0006cM-0l for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:33:38 -0400 Received: from yecsr ([207.198.225.106]) by adsl-dyn63.78-98-58.t-com.sk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:32:44 +0200 Message-ID: <46F8FFEC.8010706@nrc.gc.ca> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:32:44 +0200 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Investor News Release Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Investors Enjoy 50% Increase On SREA. Score One (S R E A . O B) $0.155 SREA announces participation with GM at Expo in November. Following this release, share prices jumped 50%. Move one SREA first thing Tuesday. From fencjdfv@erkrath.de Tue Sep 25 08:34:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia9cR-0000QA-Cg for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:34:27 -0400 Received: from adsl-dyn63.78-98-58.t-com.sk ([78.98.58.63]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia9cI-00045D-7g for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:34:25 -0400 Received: from rusq ([168.205.165.222]) by adsl-dyn63.78-98-58.t-com.sk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:33:09 +0200 Message-ID: <46F90005.8070500@erkrath.de> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:33:09 +0200 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Check out this one Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Investors Enjoy 50% Increase On SREA. 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From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 25 09:10:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaA8S-0004D7-5x; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:07:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaA8Q-0004An-IR for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:07:30 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaA8K-0004pS-RY for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:07:30 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5023726E65; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06171-06; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [jR??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6D426E60; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:07:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <028601c7ff4d$6d677590$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> References: <028601c7ff4d$6d677590$4f0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:05:49 -0400 To: Mach Chen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7698d1420ecbbce1995432e99bb6d1a1 Cc: CCAMP List , OSPF List , Vishwas Manral X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2086831879==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============2086831879== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-53--182531231 --Apple-Mail-53--182531231 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Mach, Thanks for reviewing. On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote: > Hi Acee and other authors, > > > > Some questions to ospfv3-traffic > > > > 1. In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE =20 > LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of this =20= > new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, =20= > if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. =20 > Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE =20= > LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to =20 > something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94? It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information. =20 However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial thought =20 was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate LSA =20 types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts =20 on this (copied ccamp as well)? I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy =20 exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity as a =20 bit of a hack. > > > 2. Section 2. > > =93The format of the TLVs within the body of a router information LSA =20= > is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering =20 > Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94 > > > > What=92s =93a router information LSA=94? Or should it be =93an = Intra-Area-=20 > TE LSA=94 ? Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this. Thanks, Acee --Apple-Mail-53--182531231 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Hi Mach,=A0
Thanks for = reviewing.=A0

On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach = Chen wrote:

Hi Acee and other authors,=A0

Some questions to ospfv3-traffic=A0

1.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0



=A0

2.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0

=93The format of the TLVs within the body of = a router = information LSA is the same as the format = used by the Traffic Engineering Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94=A0=A0

What=92s =93a router information LSA=94?=A0 Or = should it be =93an Intra-Area-TE LSA=94 = ?

<= /BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. = Good catch. I'll fix this.=A0

Thanks,
Acee
<= DIV>

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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7FFA8.0EAFA850-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 25 23:06:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaNAa-0004q0-2e; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:02:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaNAY-0004pm-Mu for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:02:34 -0400 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.189]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaNAS-0002g7-HU for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:02:34 -0400 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id d21so1554187nfb for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:02:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; b=tJe3mvThEzbCkaj05UnR6LPbPjE3/1E/t/5WtBARjsIkg741BFh83Gl04Own5F7YDeLvqlFk3SbwCy0YNCXWTPJURURw6/qrcMhmFL9mbx597689nVrUaXGeDMxhHIizUOXVmHuRx52M4ZfGn+Iq3XBQvSxT3z0nA+b8y421P+U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=TkgWP8gd1I0RKHTAMfGCRdTCmXfEvlcSfcb3oMRhxTERtjuVQ2xbbggF0lOaLEB5IpgDVViujcR2yDMgeUKTS83HUXUO6OdABi+bM0RH3TQlZF0WP6Y4XOWKiPtKMmujMXcoZGbbbO99ngQgkH+W2ZtFi3EcQHIOKNSs1toXkZA= Received: by 10.78.142.14 with SMTP id p14mr60835hud.1190775732313; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.140.14 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:02:10 +0800 From: "Abhay Rao" To: ospf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 Subject: [OSPF] Test Mail X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: abhayds@acm.org List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 25 23:13:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaNKK-0000pg-Ol; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:12:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaNKJ-0000pZ-Sa for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:12:39 -0400 Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.7]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaNKC-0002s7-V7 for ospf@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:12:39 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOY000LPGVLUR@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:11:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.18]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOY003MIGVJZA@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:11:45 +0800 (CST) Received: from z52993g ([10.111.34.105]) by szxml03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JOY00EUTGVGWW@szxml03-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:11:43 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:11:28 +0800 From: Sandeep To: pmurphy@noc.usgs.net Message-id: <002701c7ffea$ee6f4c10$9e0b0b0b@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: Acf/6u4ScqIOhvB4Q2On6yLGv1Znlw== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9c7d7a899dc8f3389bf7ace6f0ad8e29 Cc: ospf@ietf.org Subject: [OSPF] RFC 3101 ASE address range LSA X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0611650964==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0611650964== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_5HxlxRz2ebtsA/Gt1+5bDg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_5HxlxRz2ebtsA/Gt1+5bDg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello Pat, Some questions about RFC 3101 [OSPF NSSA] ASE address range LSA. Question 1: For asbr range Type-5 LSA, should we consider both the routes (one from OSPF_NSSA for translation and the other locally sourced route) with same preference and select route based on type and cost only or should there be a preference to OSPF route over locally sourced route? Consider both RTA and RTB import static route x.x.x.x/32. Configure asbr range x.0.0.0/8 on RTB. x.x.x.x/32 x.x.x.x/32 cost = 3 cost = 1 type = 2 type = 1 || || || || V Area 1 V Area 0 RTA------------------RTB-------------RTC NSSA (ABR) Routes on RTB, x.x.x.x/32 cost = 3 type 2 OSPF [for 7to5] x.x.x.x/32 cost = 1 type 1 static [locally sourced] ASE LSA: x.0.0.0/8 cost = ? type ? The description in RFC3101 section 3.2. Section 3.2 "Note that it is possible for a Type-5 LSA generated by translation to supplant a Type-5 LSA originating from a local OSPF external source. Future reoriginations of the locally sourced Type-5 LSA should be suppressed until the Type-5 LSA generated by translation is flushed." Section 3.2 (3) For Type-7 address range, "The path type and metric of the Type-7 address range is determined from the path types and metrics of those translatable Type-7 LSAs that best match the range plus any locally sourced Type-5 LSAs whose network has the same [address,mask] pair. If any of these LSAs have a path type of 2, the range's path type is 2, otherwise it is 1." Am I missing something!! Thanks & Regards, Sandeep --Boundary_(ID_5HxlxRz2ebtsA/Gt1+5bDg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hello Pat,

 

Some questions about RFC 3101 [OSPF NSSA] ASE address range LSA.

 

Question 1: For asbr range Type-5 LSA, should we consider both the routes (one from OSPF_NSSA for translation and the other locally sourced route) with same preference and select route based on type and cost only or should there be a preference to OSPF route over locally sourced route?

 

Consider both RTA and RTB import static route x.x.x.x/32. Configure asbr range x.0.0.0/8 on RTB.

 

x.x.x.x/32        x.x.x.x/32

cost = 3           cost = 1

type = 2           type = 1

 ||                  ||

 ||                  ||

 V     Area 1         V      Area 0

RTA------------------RTB-------------RTC

        NSSA          (ABR)

 

Routes on RTB,

 

x.x.x.x/32 cost = 3 type 2 OSPF    [for 7to5]

x.x.x.x/32 cost = 1 type 1 static [locally sourced]

 

ASE LSA: x.0.0.0/8 cost = ? type ?

 

The description in RFC3101 section 3.2.

 

Section 3.2

  "Note that it is possible for a Type-5 LSA generated by translation to

   supplant a Type-5 LSA originating from a local OSPF external source.

   Future reoriginations of the locally sourced Type-5 LSA should be

   suppressed until the Type-5 LSA generated by translation is flushed."

 

Section 3.2 (3) For Type-7 address range,

         "The path type and metric of the Type-7 address range is

          determined from the path types and metrics of those

          translatable Type-7 LSAs that best match the range plus any

          locally sourced Type-5 LSAs whose network has the same

          [address,mask] pair.  If any of these LSAs have a path type of

          2, the range's path type is 2, otherwise it is 1."

 

Am I missing something!!

 

Thanks & Regards,

Sandeep

 

--Boundary_(ID_5HxlxRz2ebtsA/Gt1+5bDg)-- --===============0611650964== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0611650964==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 26 06:14:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsL-0005tN-Js; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:13 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsI-0005pu-6z for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:10 -0400 Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.53]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsH-0001Q2-Bs for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:10 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOZ00BLJ0ALI6@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0393142343==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 26 06:14:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsJ-0005qI-5Z; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:11 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsG-0005pC-TR for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:08 -0400 Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.53]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsF-0001Q2-Tu for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:08 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOZ00BL30AKI6@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:11:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.18]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOZ00CMP0AJ72@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:11:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from d68733d ([10.111.12.195]) by szxml03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JOZ002JO0A9B4@szxml03-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:11:07 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:10:45 +0800 From: "Abhay D.S" To: ospf@ietf.org Message-id: <00fe01c80025$80f18140$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Subject: [OSPF] Need ROI comments for implementing a new reliability idea for protocols(viz OSPF) X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Abhay D.S" List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0095879913==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0095879913== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6SfXJPB59lrUkNBYOkQwHg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_6SfXJPB59lrUkNBYOkQwHg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Group, For cascaded inservice upgrades for routing protocols(like.. OSPF) running in an ISP In order to prevent any forwarding loss, I would perform a graceful restart. However, since these mechanisms are planned but are not deterministic as to always minimize traffic loss. Im working on a method to perform the planning of graceful restarts better and automatic prior to the actual restart signaling. I want to know both from protocol implementors and operators the value of ROI on this kind of idea. My ROI comments: Please feel free to add to it. 1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss. 2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about the unavailability or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts due to solar flares). 3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping and giving a all is well signal before any planned restarts actually occur. 4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective. 5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as a different version or same version with backward compatibility. Please give me an idea of ROI if any investment is made in the development of such a framework for the protocol community and the operator as a whole. It will push me in the right direction. Thanks and Regards, Abhay Rao --Boundary_(ID_6SfXJPB59lrUkNBYOkQwHg) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT  Hi Group,

For cascaded inservice upgrades for routing protocols(like.. OSPF)
running in an ISP
In order to prevent any forwarding loss, I would perform a graceful restart.

However, since these mechanisms are planned but are not deterministic
as to always
minimize traffic loss.

Im working on a method to perform the planning of graceful restarts
better and automatic
prior to the actual restart signaling.

I want to know both from protocol implementors and operators the value
of ROI on this
kind of idea.

My ROI comments: Please feel free to add to it.

1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her
   a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss.

2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about
the unavailability
   or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts
due to solar flares).

3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping
and giving a all is
   well signal before any planned restarts actually occur.

4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective.

5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as
a different version
   or same version with backward compatibility.


Please give me an idea of ROI if any investment is made in the
development of such a framework for the protocol community and the
operator as a whole.

It will push me in the right direction.

Thanks and Regards,
Abhay Rao
 
--Boundary_(ID_6SfXJPB59lrUkNBYOkQwHg)-- --===============0095879913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0095879913==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 26 06:14:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsL-0005tN-Js; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:13 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsI-0005pu-6z for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:10 -0400 Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.53]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsH-0001Q2-Bs for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:10 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOZ00BLJ0ALI6@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:11:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from M55527 ([10.111.12.79]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JOZ003PT0AIV7@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:11:09 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:10:52 +0800 From: Mach Chen Subject: Re: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt To: Acee Lindem Message-id: <0JOZ003PZ0AKV7@szxga01-in.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 [en] X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: CCAMP List , OSPF List , Vishwas Manral X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0393142343==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============0393142343== Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 SGkgQWNlZSwNCg0KUGxzIHNlZSBpbmxpbmUNCg0KICANCk9uIDIwMDctMDktMjUsIGF0IDIxOjA1 OjQ5IEFjZWUgTGluZGVtIHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+SGkgTWFjaCwNCj5UaGFua3MgZm9yIHJldmlld2lu Zy4NCj4NCj5PbiBTZXAgMjUsIDIwMDcsIGF0IDQ6MjQgQU0sIE1hY2ggQ2hlbiB3cm90ZToNCj4N Cj4+IEhpIEFjZWUgYW5kIG90aGVyIGF1dGhvcnMsDQo+Pg0KPj4NCj4+DQo+PiBTb21lIHF1ZXN0 aW9ucyB0byBvc3BmdjMtdHJhZmZpYw0KPj4NCj4+DQo+Pg0KPj4gMS4gICAgICAgSW4gdGhpcyBv c3BmdjMtdHJhZmZpYyBkb2N1bWVudCwgYSBuZXcgTFNBLCBJbnRyYS1BcmVhLVRFICANCj4+IExT QSwgaXMgZGVmaW5lZCB0byBhZHZlcnRpc2UgSVB2NiBURSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi4gRnJvbSBuYW1l IG9mIHRoaXMgIA0KPj4gbmV3IExTQSwgSU1ITywgaXQgaXMgbGltaXRlZCB0byBiZSB1c2VkIGZv ciBJbnRyYS1BcmVhIFRFIG9ubHkuIFNvLCAgDQo+PiBpZiB0aGVyZSBhcmUgc29tZSB1bmRlcmx5 aW5nIGV4dGVuc2lvbnMgdG8gb3NwZnYzLXRyYWZmaWMsIGUuZy4gIA0KPj4gSW50ZXItQVMgVEUs IGl0IGlzIGEgbGl0dGxlIGJpdCBzdHJhbmdlIHRvIHJlLXVzZSB0aGUgSW50cmEtQXJlYS1URSAg DQo+PiBMU0EsIG9yIGl0IGhhcyB0byBkZWZpbmUgYSBuZXcgTFNBLiBTbywgY2FuIHdlIGNoYW5n ZSBpdHMgbmFtZSB0byAgDQo+PiBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSChsE9TUEZ2MyBURSBMU0GhsT8NCj5J dCB3b3VsZCBiZSBpZiB3ZSBoYWQgaW50ZW5kZWQgaXQgdG8gY2FycnkgQVMgd2lkZSBpbmZvcm1h dGlvbi4gIA0KPkhvd2V2ZXIsIGl0IHdhcyBub3QgaW5pdGlhbGx5IGludGVuZGVkIGZvciB0aGlz LiBUaGUgaW5pdGlhbCB0aG91Z2h0ICANCj53YXMgdGhhdCB3ZSB3b3VsZCBkbyBhIGJldHRlciBq b2IgZm9yIE9TUEZ2MyBhbmQgZGVmaW5lIHNlcGFyYXRlIExTQSAgDQo+dHlwZXMgZm9yIGludHJh LWFyZWEsIGludGVyLWFyZWEsIGFuZCBBUyBleHRlcm5hbCBURSBMU0FzLiBUaG91Z2h0cyAgDQo+ b24gdGhpcyAoY29waWVkIGNjYW1wIGFzIHdlbGwpPw0KDQpTbywgdGhlIGNvbmNsdXNpb24gaXMg dGhhdCBhIG5ldyBMU0EobWF5IGJlIGNhbGxlZCBJbnRlci1BUy1URSBMU0EpIGhhcyB0byBiZSBk ZWZpbmVkIGZvciBhZHZlcnRpc2luZyBpbnRlci1BUyBURSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpbiBzdXBwb3J0 IG9mIE9TUEZ2MyBURSwgYW0gSSByaWdodD8NCiANCj4gSSBndWVzcywgSU1ITywgdGhpcyBkaXNj cmVwYW5jeSAgDQo+ZXhwb3NlcyB0aGUgY2hvaWNlIG9mIGEgbmV3IGxpbmsgdHlwZSBmb3IgaW50 ZXItQVMgY29ubmVjdGl2aXR5IGFzIGEgIA0KPmJpdCBvZiBhIGhhY2suDQo+DQoNCkZvciBPU1BG djMgVEUoc2VwYXJhdGUgTFNBcyBhcmUgdXNlZCkgaXMgWUVTLiBCdXQgYXMgdG8gT1NQRnYyIFRF LCBJTUhPLCB0aGVyZSBzaG91bGQgYmUgYSBuZXcgbGluayB0eXBlIHRvIGlkZW50aWZ5IGFuIGlu dGVyLUFTIGxpbmssIG9yIHdlIG5lZWQgYW5vdGhlciBuZXcgTFNBLg0KDQo+DQo+DQo+Pg0KPj4N Cj4+IDIuICAgICAgIFNlY3Rpb24gMi4NCj4+DQo+PiChsFRoZSBmb3JtYXQgb2YgdGhlIFRMVnMg d2l0aGluIHRoZSBib2R5IG9mIGEgcm91dGVyIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIExTQSAgDQo+PiBpcyB0aGUg c2FtZSBhcyB0aGUgZm9ybWF0IHVzZWQgYnkgdGhlIFRyYWZmaWMgRW5naW5lZXJpbmcgIA0KPj4g RXh0ZW5zaW9ucyB0byBPU1BGIFtURV0uobENCj4+DQo+Pg0KPj4NCj4+IFdoYXShr3MgobBhIHJv dXRlciBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBMU0GhsT8gIE9yIHNob3VsZCBpdCBiZSChsGFuIEludHJhLUFyZWEt IA0KPj4gVEUgTFNBobEgPw0KPg0KPlllcy4gR29vZCBjYXRjaC4gSSdsbCBmaXggdGhpcy4NCg0K VGhhbmtzLg0KDQo+DQo+VGhhbmtzLA0KPkFjZWUNCg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsCQkJDQpNYWNo IENoZW4NCg0K --===============0393142343== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0393142343==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 26 06:14:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsJ-0005qI-5Z; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:11 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsG-0005pC-TR for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:08 -0400 Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.53]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaTsF-0001Q2-Tu for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:12:08 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOZ00BL30AKI6@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:11:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.18]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JOZ00CMP0AJ72@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:11:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from d68733d ([10.111.12.195]) by szxml03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JOZ002JO0A9B4@szxml03-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:11:07 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:10:45 +0800 From: "Abhay D.S" To: ospf@ietf.org Message-id: <00fe01c80025$80f18140$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Subject: [OSPF] Need ROI comments for implementing a new reliability idea for protocols(viz OSPF) X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Abhay D.S" List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0095879913==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0095879913== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6SfXJPB59lrUkNBYOkQwHg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_6SfXJPB59lrUkNBYOkQwHg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Group, For cascaded inservice upgrades for routing protocols(like.. OSPF) running in an ISP In order to prevent any forwarding loss, I would perform a graceful restart. However, since these mechanisms are planned but are not deterministic as to always minimize traffic loss. Im working on a method to perform the planning of graceful restarts better and automatic prior to the actual restart signaling. I want to know both from protocol implementors and operators the value of ROI on this kind of idea. My ROI comments: Please feel free to add to it. 1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss. 2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about the unavailability or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts due to solar flares). 3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping and giving a all is well signal before any planned restarts actually occur. 4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective. 5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as a different version or same version with backward compatibility. Please give me an idea of ROI if any investment is made in the development of such a framework for the protocol community and the operator as a whole. It will push me in the right direction. Thanks and Regards, Abhay Rao --Boundary_(ID_6SfXJPB59lrUkNBYOkQwHg) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT  Hi Group,

For cascaded inservice upgrades for routing protocols(like.. OSPF)
running in an ISP
In order to prevent any forwarding loss, I would perform a graceful restart.

However, since these mechanisms are planned but are not deterministic
as to always
minimize traffic loss.

Im working on a method to perform the planning of graceful restarts
better and automatic
prior to the actual restart signaling.

I want to know both from protocol implementors and operators the value
of ROI on this
kind of idea.

My ROI comments: Please feel free to add to it.

1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her
   a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss.

2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about
the unavailability
   or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts
due to solar flares).

3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping
and giving a all is
   well signal before any planned restarts actually occur.

4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective.

5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as
a different version
   or same version with backward compatibility.


Please give me an idea of ROI if any investment is made in the
development of such a framework for the protocol community and the
operator as a whole.

It will push me in the right direction.

Thanks and Regards,
Abhay Rao
 
--Boundary_(ID_6SfXJPB59lrUkNBYOkQwHg)-- --===============0095879913== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0095879913==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 26 10:19:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaXgZ-0001yN-UO; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:16:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaXgY-0001uD-Rr for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:16:18 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaXgR-00038Q-TR for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:16:18 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5941E74D921; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22158-10; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [ZJ??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA8C74D91F; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:16:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0JOZ003PZ0AKV7@szxga01-in.huawei.com> References: <0JOZ003PZ0AKV7@szxga01-in.huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:14:36 -0400 To: Mach Chen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d95a152022472c7d6cdf886a0424dc6 Cc: CCAMP List , OSPF List , Vishwas Manral X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi Mach, On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote: > Hi Acee, > > Pls see inline > > > On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote: > >> Hi Mach, >> Thanks for reviewing. >> >> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote: >> >>> Hi Acee and other authors, >>> >>> >>> >>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE >>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of = this >>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. So, >>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. >>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-Area-TE >>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to >>> something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94? >> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information. >> However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial thought >> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate LSA >> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts >> on this (copied ccamp as well)? > > So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA) =20= > has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information in =20 > support of OSPFv3 TE, am I right? > >> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy >> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity as a >> bit of a hack. >> > > For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE, =20 > IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an inter-AS link, =20= > or we need another new LSA. It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then it =20 should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising it as a new =20= link type is one way to advertise inter-AS connectivity. However, it =20 isn't necessarily a link. This seems to me to be more of a semantical =20= discrepancy than the name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at =20 least for OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in =20 either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the maturity =20= of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should allocate a new LSA =20 opaque type for this purpose. What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-=20 extension-01.txt? I know at the OSPF meeting there were a number of =20 people who questioned whether or not it was necessary. Thanks, Acee > >> >> >>> >>> >>> 2. Section 2. >>> >>> =93The format of the TLVs within the body of a router information = LSA >>> is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering >>> Extensions to OSPF [TE].=94 >>> >>> >>> >>> What=92s =93a router information LSA=94? Or should it be =93an = Intra-Area- >>> TE LSA=94 ? >> >> Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this. > > Thanks. > >> >> Thanks, >> Acee > > > Best regards, =09 > Mach Chen > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ed.carter@mhh.hu Wed Sep 26 14:55:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iac2m-0003w9-JQ for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:55:32 -0400 Received: from [12.198.207.82] (helo=fkho) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iac2g-0004My-CY for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:55:27 -0400 Received: from kpx ([34.144.129.239]) by fkho (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id l8QIm3L0079545; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:48:03 -0700 Message-ID: <002d01c8006d$b587cbb0$ef819022@kpx> From: To: Subject: Come play a game, you know you want to! Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:47:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Don't pay for another game, ever. Arcade World has email for free. http://207.4.10.165/ From TeShaun.tait@pop.iip.co.jp Wed Sep 26 15:39:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iacjk-0004Af-4b for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:39:56 -0400 Received: from aorleans-258-1-101-148.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr ([90.24.92.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IacjX-0006PP-SS for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:39:51 -0400 Received: by 10.51.3.159 with SMTP id OZtarfkPyFmIi; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:41:17 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.216.194 with SMTP id OGxlIzwUWoWwxt.3262659944375; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:41:15 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000601c80075$31d70d50$945c185a@optiplex> From: "TeShaun tait" To: Subject: adergezw Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:41:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80085.F55FDD50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80085.F55FDD50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://goolyl.com/ regards ospf-archive The demand for these pills is so high .. prices will go up soon TeShaun tait ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80085.F55FDD50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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TeShaun tait
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80085.F55FDD50-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 26 16:06:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iad6o-0004Xo-1D; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:03:46 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iad6m-0004Qu-MZ for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:03:44 -0400 Received: from host-12-177-52-30.aessuccess.org ([12.177.52.30] helo=host96.aessuccess.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iad6f-0005kw-Au for ospf@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:03:37 -0400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:09:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tom Stewart" To: ospf@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: X-WSS-ID: 437003CCBR592809-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Subject: [OSPF] Tom Stewart is out of the office. X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: tstewar1@aessuccess.org List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org You have a secure email message waiting for you from Tom Stewart at AES/PHEAA with the subject: Tom Stewart is out of the office.. How to Retrieve Your Message To retrieve your message from Tom Stewart with the subject: Tom Stewart is out of the office., go to: https://securemail.aessuccess.org/messenger/msg?x=d-14970418-77TSRCzFzSolmozb This message will be available until 11/25/2007. Why You Are Receiving this Email AES/PHEAA has sent you a message that may include sensitive information or personal data, as defined by federal law. To protect the privacy of this information, the email has been encrypted. 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The sender of this message will fully cooperate in the civil and criminal prosecution of any individual engaging in the unauthorized use of this message. ============================================================================== _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Wed Sep 26 18:04:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaexG-00080p-Bh; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:02:02 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaexE-0007so-Ex; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:02:00 -0400 Received: from bgp.nu ([64.27.28.76]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaex3-00016J-Um; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:01:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (bgp.nu [64.27.28.76]) by bgp.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2578B53E1ED; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:01:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at bgp.nu Received: from bgp.nu ([64.27.28.76]) by localhost (bgp.nu [64.27.28.76]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id m21wkD+6NWOw; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.16.13.200] (dsl093-003-111.det1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.3.111]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bgp.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F7A53E1EC; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) References: <1BE7AC0C-9229-4BC5-B968-74F8614D4A57@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8711F57F-DAA0-44E9-A182-C944E484F2D5@bgp.nu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "John G. Scudder" Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:00:16 -0400 To: mpls@lists.ietf.org, ospf@ietf.org, isis-wg@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Subject: [OSPF] Fwd: Working Group Last Call for "Basic Specification for IP Fast-Reroute: Loop-free Alternates" X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org FYI for those not subscribed to rtgwg. --John Begin forwarded message: > From: "John G. Scudder" > Date: September 26, 2007 3:47:32 PM GMT-04:00 > To: rtgwg@ietf.org > Subject: Working Group Last Call for "Basic Specification for IP > Fast-Reroute: Loop-free Alternates" > > Folks, > > The authors have indicated they're ready for WGLC on "Basic > Specification for IP Fast-Reroute: Loop-free Alternates" (draft- > ietf-rtgwg-ipfrr-spec-base-09). You can access the draft at http:// > www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rtgwg-ipfrr-spec-base-09.txt. > > Please send comments to the list. The deadline for comments is > October 12. > > --John _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 05:51:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iapzh-00020S-PD; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 05:49:17 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iapzg-00020M-DT for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 05:49:16 -0400 Received: from smtp.dataconnection.com ([192.91.191.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iapzb-0000jh-4L for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 05:49:16 -0400 Received: from enfimail2.datcon.co.uk ([172.19.14.250]) by smtp.dataconnection.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:49:00 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:48:59 +0100 Message-ID: <52A0FF47062B0B4C80862F2526E02409049197A1@enfimail2.datcon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt Thread-Index: AcgAR8TFF8MyefNJSeiCAiwv8kJx2gAlOmGA References: <0JOZ003PZ0AKV7@szxga01-in.huawei.com> From: "Alan Davey" To: "Acee Lindem" , "Mach Chen" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Sep 2007 09:49:00.0468 (UTC) FILETIME=[A15E3740:01C800EB] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9af087f15dbdd4c64ae6bbcdbc5b1d44 Cc: CCAMP List , OSPF List , Vishwas Manral X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Guys Apologies for the late response. =20 I basically agree with Acee. * It makes sense to define a new OSPFv3-TE LSA type to carry the AS connectivity information. I think that this would probably provide a better and more back compatible way to identify the new advertisements than defining a new link type value. * It also makes sense to use the same approach in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3 and so a new OSPFv2 opaque type may be the way to go.=20 My other comments on the draft, from an OSPFv3 TE perspective, are as follows. * On the subject of identifying the other end of the inter-AS link. - The Link ID sub-TLV is not suitable as it SHOULD be ignored on receipt by an OSPFv3 TE implementation. =20 - The Neighbor ID sub-TLV MUST be used instead. This sub-TLV contains the neighbor's interface ID and the neighbor's 32-bit Router ID (note that this is NOT the TE Router ID). - Use of the Neighbor ID sub-TLV requires configuration at the ASBR of the remote ASBR's interface ID and the 32-bit Router ID. - You may want to advertise a global-scope IPv6 address for the router at the other end of an inter-AS link in a Remote Interface IPv6 Address Sub-TLV. This would also need to be configured. * As Acee pointed out, there is currently no OSPFv3 TE equivalent to the Type 11 Opaque LSA, that is, there is no defined LSA for flooding AS scope TE information. * The wording needs to be changed for OSPFv3 TE when describing the contents of a "proxy" advertisement for the backward direction of an inter-AD TE link. Regards Alan Davey ------------------------------------ Alan Davey Data Connection Ltd Tel: +44 20 8366 1177 Fax: +44 20 8363 1039 Email: Alan.Davey@dataconnection.com Web: http://www.dataconnection.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Acee Lindem [mailto:acee@redback.com]=20 > Sent: 26 September 2007 15:15 > To: Mach Chen > Cc: OSPF List; Vishwas Manral; Alan Davey; CCAMP List > Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of=20 > draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt >=20 > Hi Mach, >=20 > On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote: >=20 > > Hi Acee, > > > > Pls see inline > > > > > > On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote: > > > >> Hi Mach, > >> Thanks for reviewing. > >> > >> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Acee and other authors, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 1. In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE > >>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. From=20 > name of this=20 > >>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE=20 > only. So,=20 > >>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. > >>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the=20 > Intra-Area-TE=20 > >>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to=20 > >>> something like "OSPFv3 TE LSA"? > >> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information. > >> However, it was not initially intended for this. The=20 > initial thought=20 > >> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define=20 > separate LSA=20 > >> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs.=20 > Thoughts=20 > >> on this (copied ccamp as well)? > > > > So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA)=20 > > has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information=20 > in support=20 > > of OSPFv3 TE, am I right? > > > >> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy > >> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS=20 > connectivity as a=20 > >> bit of a hack. > >> > > > > For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE,=20 > > IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an=20 > inter-AS link, or=20 > > we need another new LSA. >=20 >=20 > It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then=20 > it should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising=20 > it as a new link type is one way to advertise inter-AS=20 > connectivity. However, it isn't necessarily a link. This=20 > seems to me to be more of a semantical discrepancy than the=20 > name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at least for=20 > OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in=20 > either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the=20 > maturity of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should=20 > allocate a new LSA opaque type for this purpose. >=20 > What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te-=20 > extension-01.txt? I know at the OSPF meeting there were a=20 > number of people who questioned whether or not it was necessary. >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> 2. Section 2. > >>> > >>> "The format of the TLVs within the body of a router=20 > information LSA=20 > >>> is the same as the format used by the Traffic Engineering=20 > Extensions=20 > >>> to OSPF [TE]." > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> What's "a router information LSA"? Or should it be "an=20 > Intra-Area-=20 > >>> TE LSA" ? > >> > >> Yes. Good catch. I'll fix this. > > > > Thanks. > > > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Acee > > > > > > Best regards, =09 > > Mach Chen > > >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 06:02:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaqAT-0007of-UO; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:00:25 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaqAR-0007kv-U6 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:00:23 -0400 Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.7]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaqAQ-0002SD-Ij for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:00:23 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JP000B8VUFEN7@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:59:39 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JP000DUDUFDMP@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:59:38 +0800 (CST) Received: from d68733d ([10.111.12.195]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JP000CP3UFAQ9@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:59:37 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:59:21 +0800 From: "Abhay D.S" To: ospf@ietf.org Message-id: <017201c800ed$13f0daa0$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Subject: [OSPF] Reminder Fw: Need ROI comments for implementing a new reliability idea for protocols(viz OSPF) X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Abhay D.S" List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0280757138==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0280757138== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_d8NQScYs1C5gTVTI4cl02g)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_d8NQScYs1C5gTVTI4cl02g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: Abhay D.S To: ospf@ietf.org Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:10 PM Subject: Need ROI comments for implementing a new reliability idea for protocols(viz OSPF) Hi Group, For cascaded inservice upgrades for routing protocols(like.. OSPF) running in an ISP In order to prevent any forwarding loss, I would perform a graceful restart. However, since these mechanisms are planned but are not deterministic as to always minimize traffic loss. Im working on a method to perform the planning of graceful restarts better and automatic prior to the actual restart signaling. I want to know both from protocol implementors and operators the value of ROI on this kind of idea. My ROI comments: Please feel free to add to it. 1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss. 2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about the unavailability or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts due to solar flares). 3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping and giving a all is well signal before any planned restarts actually occur. 4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective. 5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as a different version or same version with backward compatibility. Please give me an idea of ROI if any investment is made in the development of such a framework for the protocol community and the operator as a whole. It will push me in the right direction. Thanks and Regards, Abhay Rao --Boundary_(ID_d8NQScYs1C5gTVTI4cl02g) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Abhay D.S
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:10 PM
Subject: Need ROI comments for implementing a new reliability idea for protocols(viz OSPF)

 Hi Group,

For cascaded inservice upgrades for routing protocols(like.. OSPF)
running in an ISP
In order to prevent any forwarding loss, I would perform a graceful restart.

However, since these mechanisms are planned but are not deterministic
as to always
minimize traffic loss.

Im working on a method to perform the planning of graceful restarts
better and automatic
prior to the actual restart signaling.

I want to know both from protocol implementors and operators the value
of ROI on this
kind of idea.

My ROI comments: Please feel free to add to it.

1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her
   a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss.

2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about
the unavailability
   or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts
due to solar flares).

3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping
and giving a all is
   well signal before any planned restarts actually occur.

4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective.

5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as
a different version
   or same version with backward compatibility.


Please give me an idea of ROI if any investment is made in the
development of such a framework for the protocol community and the
operator as a whole.

It will push me in the right direction.

Thanks and Regards,
Abhay Rao
 
--Boundary_(ID_d8NQScYs1C5gTVTI4cl02g)-- --===============0280757138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============0280757138==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 06:10:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaqJ0-0003UR-BF; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:09:14 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaqIx-00036Q-TJ for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:09:11 -0400 Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaqIk-0001Ag-Se for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:09:04 -0400 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id 1.d06.1bacac63 (32913); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:07:28 -0400 (EDT) From: HeinerHummel@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:07:28 EDT Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments To: dkatz@juniper.net, mrthom@essex.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 9.0 VR sub 52 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 827a2a57ca7ab0837847220f447e8d56 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1183428711==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1183428711== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1190887648" -------------------------------1190887648 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 I observe (see email excerpt below) that OSPF-lite, though EU-funded =20 research project, is rather not welcome. Hence it may be better to clarify =20= in the=20 first place what is a valuable research objective for OSPF improvements. =20 So let me ask you for your opinion wrt the following research ideas (maybe =20 that they are already state of the art and I just don't know): =20 1) Optimizing the way how to determine the best next hop by some (root) nod= e=20 with x adjacent links in a network with n nodes. Assumed current practise: The current=3Droot node computes the Dijkstra =20 shortest path tree. Then, n-1 times, starting from any network node x, it n= avigates=20 towards the tree root. =20 Envisioned optimized alternative: The current=3Droot node computes the =20 Dijkstra shortest path tree. Then, 1 times, starting from each root adjace= nt link,=20 it navigates (recursively) towards the leaves of the tree. =20 2) Respective impact to determine all equal-cost adjacent links. =20 3) Why just equal-cost multipath? Determine methods for safe (=3Dloop-free)=20= =20 forwarding even if the costs are not equal. =20 Your opinion is appreciated. =20 Heiner =20 =20 =20 In einer eMail vom 18.09.2007 22:44:47 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt= =20 dkatz@juniper.net: Related to this is the fact that nobody has *any* operational =20 motivation to deploy it, given that it appears to be nothing but a =20 slightly dumbed-down version of OSPF. The first rule of displacing =20 an established product in the market is that you have to supplant it =20 with something that is (or is perceived to be) a lot *better* in one =20 way or another. It either needs some killer functionality that =20 people need, or it has to somehow be a lot cheaper. This spec =20 doesn't seem to achieve either one. If you're serious about displacing OSPF as we know it, come up with a =20 spec that fixes the *real* problems with OSPF (areas and DRs do not =20 qualify.) Like I've said, there's plenty of stuff about OSPF that I think is =20 stupid and counterproductive. But the reality of the situation is =20 that OSPF is here, it's known, and it's *done.* Without *really* =20 compelling improvements in functionality, there's simply no reason to =20 go forward with this. --Dave =20 -------------------------------1190887648 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I observe (see email excerpt below) that OSPF-lite, though EU-fund= ed=20 research project, is rather not welcome. Hence it may be better to clar= ify=20 in the first place what is a valuable research objective for OSPF=20 improvements.
 
So let me ask you for your opinion wrt the following research ideas (ma= ybe=20 that they are already state of the art and I just don't know):
 
1) Optimizing the way how to determine the best next hop by some (root)= =20 node with x adjacent links in a network with n nodes.
Assumed current practise: The current=3Droot node computes the Dijkstra= =20 shortest path tree. Then, n-1 times, starting from any network node=20 x, it navigates towards the tree root.
 
Envisioned optimized alternative: The current=3Droot node computes the=20 Dijkstra shortest path tree. Then,  1 times, starting=20 from each root adjacent link, it navigates (recursively) towards t= he=20 leaves of the tree.
 
2) Respective impact to determine all equal-cost adjacent links.
 
3) Why just equal-cost multipath? Determine methods for safe (=3Dloop-f= ree)=20 forwarding even if the costs are not equal.
 
Your opinion is appreciated.
 
Heiner
 
 
 
In einer eMail vom 18.09.2007 22:44:47 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit sch= reibt=20 dkatz@juniper.net:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>Related=20 to this is the fact that nobody has *any* operational 
motivation= to=20 deploy it, given that it appears to be nothing but a 
slightly=20 dumbed-down version of OSPF.  The first rule of displacing 
= an=20 established product in the market is that you have to supplant it =20
with something that is (or is perceived to be) a lot *better* in one&n= bsp;=20
way or another.  It either needs some killer functionality that&n= bsp;=20
people need, or it has to somehow be a lot cheaper.  This spec&nb= sp;=20
doesn't seem to achieve either one.

If you're serious about=20 displacing OSPF as we know it, come up with a 
spec that fixes th= e=20 *real* problems with OSPF (areas and DRs do not =20
qualify.)

Like I've said, there's plenty of stuff about OSPF th= at I=20 think is 
stupid and counterproductive.  But the reality of=20= the=20 situation is 
that OSPF is here, it's known, and it's *done.*&nbs= p;=20 Without *really* 
compelling improvements in functionality, there= 's=20 simply no reason to 
go forward with=20 this.

--Dave

 
 -------------------------------1190887648-- --===============1183428711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1183428711==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 11:01:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iauou-0004Kk-6w; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:58:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iauot-0004Kd-Ab for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:58:27 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iauom-0000oJ-QE for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:58:27 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B511265C9F; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 07:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29544-03; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 07:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [ZJ??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20378265CA5; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 07:58:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:56:46 -0400 To: HeinerHummel@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1595046905==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1595046905== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-63--3075009 --Apple-Mail-63--3075009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Heiner, On Sep 27, 2007, at 6:07 AM, HeinerHummel@aol.com wrote: > I observe (see email excerpt below) that OSPF-lite, though EU-=20 > funded research project, is rather not welcome. Hence it may be =20 > better to clarify in the first place what is a valuable research =20 > objective for OSPF improvements. > > So let me ask you for your opinion wrt the following research ideas =20= > (maybe that they are already state of the art and I just don't know): > > 1) Optimizing the way how to determine the best next hop by some =20 > (root) node with x adjacent links in a network with n nodes. > Assumed current practise: The current=3Droot node computes the =20 > Dijkstra shortest path tree. Then, n-1 times, starting from any =20 > network node x, it navigates towards the tree root. > > Envisioned optimized alternative: The current=3Droot node computes =20 > the Dijkstra shortest path tree. Then, 1 times, starting from each =20= > root adjacent link, it navigates (recursively) towards the leaves =20 > of the tree. The results of this may be interesting to the OSPF WG in general but =20 note that this has been done before and that it can be done without =20 changes to the base specification. In fact, this is stated in RFC =20 2328 - section 16.1. The specification does not require that the above two stage method be used to calculate the shortest path tree. =20 However, if another algorithm is used, an identical tree must be produced. For this reason, it is important to note that links between transit vertices must be bidirectional in order to be included in the above tree. It should also be mentioned that more efficient algorithms exist for calculating the tree; for example, the incremental SPF algorithm described in [Ref1]. > > 2) Respective impact to determine all equal-cost adjacent links. I don't believe this is a very interesting research problem. > > 3) Why just equal-cost multipath? Determine methods for safe (=3Dloop-=20= > free) forwarding even if the costs are not equal. Are you familiar with the work being done in the rtgwg? For example: draft-ietf-rtgwg-ipfrr-spec-base-09.txt Of course, this doesn't delve in the forwarding plane issues with =20 using the unequal-cost multi-path routes there has been work done =20 here for load-based equal cost multipath. http://www3.tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ospf-omp-00 If you're looking for suggestions on how to spend you research =20 dollars, you could evaluate the 3 experimental drafts for OSPF MANET =20 flooding and adjacency reduction. Thanks, Acee > > Your opinion is appreciated. > > Heiner > > > > In einer eMail vom 18.09.2007 22:44:47 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit =20= > schreibt dkatz@juniper.net: > Related to this is the fact that nobody has *any* operational > motivation to deploy it, given that it appears to be nothing but a > slightly dumbed-down version of OSPF. The first rule of displacing > an established product in the market is that you have to supplant it > with something that is (or is perceived to be) a lot *better* in one > way or another. It either needs some killer functionality that > people need, or it has to somehow be a lot cheaper. This spec > doesn't seem to achieve either one. > > If you're serious about displacing OSPF as we know it, come up with a > spec that fixes the *real* problems with OSPF (areas and DRs do not > qualify.) > > Like I've said, there's plenty of stuff about OSPF that I think is > stupid and counterproductive. But the reality of the situation is > that OSPF is here, it's known, and it's *done.* Without *really* > compelling improvements in functionality, there's simply no reason to > go forward with this. > > --Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > OSPF mailing list > OSPF@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --Apple-Mail-63--3075009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Heiner,=A0

On= Sep 27, 2007, at 6:07 AM, HeinerHummel@aol.com = wrote:

I observe (see email excerpt below) that = OSPF-lite, though=A0EU-funded research project,=A0is rather not welcome. = Hence it may be better to clarify in the first place what is a valuable = research objective for OSPF improvements.
=A0
So = let me ask you for your opinion wrt the following research ideas (maybe = that they are already state of the art and I just don't know):
=
=A0
1) Optimizing the way how to determine the best next = hop by some (root) node with x adjacent links in a network with n = nodes.
Assumed current practise: The current=3Droot node = computes the Dijkstra shortest path tree. Then, n-1 times, starting = from=A0any network node x,=A0it navigates towards the tree root.
=
=A0
Envisioned optimized alternative: The current=3Droot = node computes the Dijkstra shortest path tree. Then,=A0=A01 = times,=A0starting from=A0each root adjacent link,=A0it navigates = (recursively) towards the leaves of the = tree.

The results of this may be = interesting to the OSPF WG in general but note that this has been done = before and that it can be done without changes to the base = specification. In fact, this is stated in RFC 2328 - section = 16.1.

=A0= =A0 =A0=A0 =A0The specification does not require that the above two = stage
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 method be used to calculate the shortest path = tree.=A0 = However, = if
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 another algorithm is used, an identical tree must be = produced.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 For this reason, it is important to note that links = between
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 transit vertices must be bidirectional in order to = be included
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = in the above = tree.=A0 = It should = also be mentioned that more
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = efficient = algorithms exist for calculating the tree; for
=A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 example, the incremental SPF algorithm described in = [Ref1].



=A0
2) Respective=A0impact to determine = all equal-cost adjacent links.

I don't believe this is a = very interesting research problem.=A0


=A0
3) Why just equal-cost multipath? = Determine methods for safe (=3Dloop-free) forwarding even if the costs = are not equal.

Are you familiar with the = work being done in the rtgwg? For example:=A0

=A0 = =A0draft-ietf-rtgwg-ipfrr-spec-base-09.txt

Of course, this doesn't = delve in the forwarding plane issues with using the unequal-cost = multi-path routes there has been work done here for load-based equal = cost multipath.=A0



If you're looking = for suggestions on how to spend you research dollars, you could evaluate = the 3 experimental drafts for OSPF MANET flooding and adjacency = reduction.=A0

Thanks,
Acee
<= DIV>





=A0
Your opinion is appreciated.
=
=A0
Heiner
=A0
=A0
=
=A0
In einer eMail vom 18.09.2007 22:44:47 = Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt dkatz@juniper.net:
=
Related to this is the = fact that nobody has *any* operational=A0
motivation to deploy it, = given that it appears to be nothing but a=A0
slightly dumbed-down = version of OSPF.=A0 The first rule of displacing=A0
an established = product in the market is that you have to supplant it=A0
with = something that is (or is perceived to be) a lot *better* in one=A0 =
way or another.=A0 It either needs some killer functionality that=A0 =
people need, or it has to somehow be a lot cheaper.=A0 This spec=A0 =
doesn't seem to achieve either one.

If you're serious about = displacing OSPF as we know it, come up with a=A0
spec that fixes = the *real* problems with OSPF (areas and DRs do not=A0 =
qualify.)

Like I've said, there's plenty of stuff about OSPF = that I think is=A0
stupid and counterproductive.=A0 But the = reality of the situation is=A0
that OSPF is here, it's known, and = it's *done.*=A0 Without *really*=A0
compelling improvements in = functionality, there's simply no reason to=A0
go forward with = this.

--Dave

=
=A0
OSPF mailing list
=

= --Apple-Mail-63--3075009-- --===============1595046905== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1595046905==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 12:11:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IavuK-0005Dh-KQ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:08:08 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IavuI-0005BR-Sn for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:08:06 -0400 Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.5]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IavuI-0006EG-EV for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:08:06 -0400 Received: from HeinerHummel@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id p.ca2.19d8b46d (41810); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:06:53 -0400 (EDT) From: HeinerHummel@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:06:53 EDT Subject: Re: [OSPF] ospf-lite welcomes comments To: acee@redback.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 9.0 VR sub 52 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1336896624==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1336896624== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1190909213" -------------------------------1190909213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 In einer eMail vom 27.09.2007 16:58:46 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt= =20 acee@redback.com: Are you familiar with the work being done in the rtgwg? For example:=20 draft-ietf-rtgwg-ipfrr-spec-base-09.txt Acee, thank you for your quick response. No, I am not familiar with this =20 rtgwg-draft. Having just read the first "inequality 1 loop-free criterion" and having=20 drawn a chess board network to visualize it, I must say: it is just not tru= e.=20 "<=3D" would be correct at a first glance. But that is by far not the limit= . I=20 can distinguisch between guaranteed loop-free routes, loop-endangered route= s=20 which needs a little bit of caution, loop-endangered routes which needs som= e=20 more intensive care, and I can identify any next hop which definitively ent= ers=20 a dead end. =20 If you look at _www.hummel-research.de_ (http://www.hummel-research.de) and= =20 look at my example network you will see that all links are, by means of my=20 algorithm, converted into arrows which LOOP-FREE direct to the red destinat= ion=20 node. It takes some more labor as to safely use arrows from head to tail. In the=20 end the proper relevant routing information could be assigned to each adjac= ent=20 link, from "best-hop" to "dead end entrance". =20 But I will continue to read this rtgwg-draft. =20 Heiner =20 =20 -------------------------------1190909213 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In einer eMail vom 27.09.2007 16:58:46 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit sch= reibt=20 acee@redback.com:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>
Are you familiar with the work being done in the rtgwg? For=20 example: 

 =20  draft-ietf-rtgwg-ipfrr-spec-base-09.txt

 
Acee,
thank you for your quick response. No, I am not familiar with this=20 rtgwg-draft.
Having just read the first "inequality  1 loop-free criterion" and= =20 having drawn a chess board network to visualize it, I must say: it= is=20 just not true. "<=3D" would be correct at a first glance. But that i= s by=20 far not the limit. I can distinguisch between guaranteed loop-free routes,=20 loop-endangered routes which needs a little bit of caution, loop-endangered=20 routes which needs some more intensive care, and I can identify any next hop= =20 which definitively enters a dead end.
 
If you look at www.hummel-research.de and look a= t my=20 example network you will see that all links are, by means of my algorithm,=20 converted into arrows which LOOP-FREE direct to the red destination node.
It takes some more labor as to safely use arrows from head to= =20 tail. In the end the proper relevant routing information could be assigned t= o=20 each adjacent link, from "best-hop" to "dead end entrance".
 
But I will continue to read this rtgwg-draft.
 
Heiner
 
 -------------------------------1190909213-- --===============1336896624== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1336896624==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 15:32:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaz2Z-00042q-61; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:28:51 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaz2X-00042g-E5 for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:28:49 -0400 Received: from rutherford.zen.co.uk ([212.23.3.142]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaz2W-0004Eq-Vp for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:28:49 -0400 Received: from [88.96.235.138] (helo=cortex.aria-networks.com) by rutherford.zen.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Iaz2W-00044N-4Y for ospf@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:28:48 +0000 Received: from your029b8cecfe ([81.140.15.32] RDNS failed) by cortex.aria-networks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:28:47 +0100 Message-ID: <02e801c8013c$9df58d00$0200a8c0@your029b8cecfe> From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:28:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Sep 2007 19:28:47.0228 (UTC) FILETIME=[9FE48BC0:01C8013C] X-Originating-Rutherford-IP: [88.96.235.138] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: Hamid Ould-Brahim Subject: [OSPF] Fw: Four L1VPN working group last calls X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Adrian Farrel List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi OSPF working group, The L1VPN working group is holding a last call on several drafts. One of them uses OSPF to advertise L1VPN membership. This I-D has previously been presented to the OSPF working group and some feedback has been incorporated. We would welcome any further thoughts during the last call. By preference, please send comments to the L1VPN list, but anything sent to the OSPF list will be forwarded. Thanks, Adrian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:17 PM Subject: [L1vpn] Four working group last calls > Hi, > > Now that there is a bit of peace and quiet on the CCAMP last calls, we > would like to hold L1VPN last calls on four I-Ds: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-applicability-basic-mode-02.txt > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-basic-mode-02.txt > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-bgp-auto-discovery-02.txt > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l1vpn-ospf-auto-discovery-03.txt > > Since there are four drafts, we will make this a three week last call. It > will complete at 12 noon GMT on 18th October 2007. > > We will be notifying the IDR, OSPF, and CCAMP working groups about this > last call. > > Thanks, > Adrian, Hamid, and Tomonori _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From Driver@vetedu.com Thu Sep 27 16:19:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IazpY-00070h-72 for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:19:28 -0400 Received: from ax113-3-82-234-24-1.fbx.proxad.net ([82.234.24.1]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IazpL-0005eS-IX for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:19:15 -0400 Received: by 10.129.80.184 with SMTP id LpYmRCnSKSfiQ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:19:18 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.190.130 with SMTP id VtkOgQeaBqdluf.8023009345843; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:19:16 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000701c80143$ab70c470$0118ea52@IBM70AF050747F> From: "Ammanual Driver" To: Subject: kakte Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:19:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C80154.6EF99470" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C80154.6EF99470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.mengams.com/ Hi ospf-archive This is the website seen on the news and 60 minutes. Ammanual Driver ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C80154.6EF99470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.mengams.com/
Hi ospf-archive
This is the website seen on the news and 60 = minutes.
Ammanual Driver
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Bankcard Services and Systems Direct Extension: 1-866-543-6268 Direct Fax: 1-866-553-8246 From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Sat Sep 29 01:07:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUTX-0003hD-4S; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:02:47 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUTV-0003h3-LJ for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:02:45 -0400 Received: from 69.37.59.172.adsl.snet.net ([69.37.59.172] helo=harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUTQ-00080g-3X for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:02:40 -0400 Received: from harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (harbor.brookfield.occnc.com [69.37.59.172]) by harbor.brookfield.occnc.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l8T533Kv005981; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:03:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com) Message-Id: <200709290503.l8T533Kv005981@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> To: "Abhay D.S" From: Curtis Villamizar Subject: Re: [OSPF] Need ROI comments for implementing a new reliability idea for protocols(viz OSPF) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:10:45 +0800." <00fe01c80025$80f18140$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:03:03 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@occnc.com List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org In message <00fe01c80025$80f18140$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> "Abhay D.S" writes: > > > Hi Group, > > For cascaded inservice upgrades for routing protocols(like.. OSPF) > running in an ISP > In order to prevent any forwarding loss, I would perform a graceful restart. > > However, since these mechanisms are planned but are not deterministic > as to always > minimize traffic loss. > > Im working on a method to perform the planning of graceful restarts > better and automatic > prior to the actual restart signaling. > > I want to know both from protocol implementors and operators the value > of ROI on this > kind of idea. > > My ROI comments: Please feel free to add to it. > > 1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her > a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss. > > 2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about > the unavailability > or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts > due to solar flares). > > 3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping > and giving a all is > well signal before any planned restarts actually occur. > > 4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective. > > 5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as > a different version > or same version with backward compatibility. > > > Please give me an idea of ROI if any investment is made in the > development of such a framework for the protocol community and the > operator as a whole. > > It will push me in the right direction. > > Thanks and Regards, > Abhay Rao What Avici did was use their "non-stop routing (tm)" solution. Essentially there is a warm backup for the route processor which need not be running the same version of code. Upgrade the backup to the new code and force a switchover. Peer routers should not be able to notice. No packets are lost. No adjacencies drop. Amber had a similar capability. I'm not sure if Cisco and Juniper have come close to being able to do this. OTOH - Neither Avici or Amber make routers anymore. Curtis _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Sat Sep 29 01:13:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUds-0000kL-My; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:13:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUdq-0000ib-AF for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:13:26 -0400 Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.7]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUdj-0005qT-T7 for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:13:26 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JP400E0V6GO24@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:12:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from M55527 ([10.111.12.79]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JP40039Z6GMH7@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:12:24 +0800 (CST) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:12:08 +0800 From: Mach Chen Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt To: Acee Lindem Message-id: <0JP4003A46GNH7@szxga04-in.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 [en] X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: CCAMP List , OSPF List , Vishwas Manral X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1198661848==" Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org --===============1198661848== Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 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LA0KPkFjZWUNCj4NCg0KDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywJCQkNCk1hY2ggQ2hlbg0KDQo= --===============1198661848== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf --===============1198661848==-- From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Sat Sep 29 01:33:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUu7-0000st-8q; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:30:15 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUu6-0000so-1Q for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:30:14 -0400 Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com ([61.144.161.7]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbUu5-0000Hk-16 for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:30:13 -0400 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JP400EVJ79924@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:29:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JP4003FR798H7@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:29:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from d68733d ([10.111.12.195]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0JP400ANS796ZG@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:29:32 +0800 (CST) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:29:17 +0800 From: "Abhay D.S" Subject: Re: [OSPF] Need ROI comments for implementing a new reliability idea for protocols(viz OSPF) To: curtis@occnc.com, "Abhay D.S" Message-id: <024a01c80259$ae3409d0$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <200709290503.l8T533Kv005981@harbor.brookfield.occnc.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Cc: ospf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Abhay D.S" List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi Curtis, Do you think working on an implementation/idea which adds other things apart from the the points you made about the in service upgrade, will add value ?. Though being simple in requirement,do you think it is MUST to have the follow five points below. Do you feel the below five needs common consensus and needs to be addressed by IETF or not ? 1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her > > a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss. > > > > 2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about > > the unavailability > > or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts > > due to solar flares). > > > > 3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping > > and giving a all is > > well signal before any planned restarts actually occur. > > > > 4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective. > > > > 5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as > > a different version > > or same version with backward compatibility. > > Many thanks for your reply. Regards, Abhay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Villamizar" To: "Abhay D.S" Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [OSPF] Need ROI comments for implementing a new reliability idea for protocols(viz OSPF) > > In message <00fe01c80025$80f18140$c30c6f0a@china.huawei.com> > "Abhay D.S" writes: > > > > > > Hi Group, > > > > For cascaded inservice upgrades for routing protocols(like.. OSPF) > > running in an ISP > > In order to prevent any forwarding loss, I would perform a graceful restart. > > > > However, since these mechanisms are planned but are not deterministic > > as to always > > minimize traffic loss. > > > > Im working on a method to perform the planning of graceful restarts > > better and automatic > > prior to the actual restart signaling. > > > > I want to know both from protocol implementors and operators the value > > of ROI on this > > kind of idea. > > > > My ROI comments: Please feel free to add to it. > > > > 1) Give operator confidence in performing planned restarts by making him/her > > a controller of minimizing the forwarding loss. > > > > 2) ISP's able to predict and inform users or other transit users about > > the unavailability > > or loss of connectivity (just like they do in the TV broadcasts > > due to solar flares). > > > > 3) Auto configuration of a set of devices to be automatically helping > > and giving a all is > > well signal before any planned restarts actually occur. > > > > 4) Make operators free of multiple tools which are not always effective. > > > > 5) Make this mechanism automated as a part of the protocol , MAYBE as > > a different version > > or same version with backward compatibility. > > > > > > Please give me an idea of ROI if any investment is made in the > > development of such a framework for the protocol community and the > > operator as a whole. > > > > It will push me in the right direction. > > > > Thanks and Regards, > > Abhay Rao > > > What Avici did was use their "non-stop routing (tm)" solution. > Essentially there is a warm backup for the route processor which need > not be running the same version of code. Upgrade the backup to the > new code and force a switchover. Peer routers should not be able to > notice. No packets are lost. No adjacencies drop. Amber had a > similar capability. > > I'm not sure if Cisco and Juniper have come close to being able to do > this. > > OTOH - Neither Avici or Amber make routers anymore. > > Curtis > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From mci@theconsultinglab.com Sat Sep 29 02:48:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbW83-0000Lu-0A; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:48:43 -0400 Received: from gd202147220202.b37.kcn-tv.ne.jp ([202.147.220.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbW7v-0007nQ-9l; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:48:40 -0400 Received: from [202.147.220.202] by mx1.biz.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:48:34 +0900 Message-ID: <01c80264$c1450410$cadc93ca@mci> From: "Whitney Lang" To: Subject: ACROBAT V8 $79 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:48:34 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Acrobat v8.0 Professional Retail Price - US $ 449.00 You save - $369.05 http://aheueiooo.cn From maverick@searchremaxgeorgia.com Sat Sep 29 03:21:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbWdt-0007WT-SB; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 03:21:37 -0400 Received: from [189.24.51.35] (helo=18924051035.user.veloxzone.com.br) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbWdi-0000WK-T4; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 03:21:28 -0400 Received: from [189.24.51.35] by smtp.secureserver.net; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 04:21:28 -0300 Message-ID: <01c80269$59dd8310$233318bd@maverick> From: "Julianne Gary" To: Subject: Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended Our price $89 retail price - $999.00 save -save US $ 909.05 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 04:21:28 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 adobe cs3 extended Save: $909.05 http://aheueiooo.cn From helmer@argos.com.co Sat Sep 29 05:56:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbZ3U-0001zP-Gf for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:56:12 -0400 Received: from mail.mandira.co.id ([202.153.240.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbZ3J-0005Bm-DI for ospf-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:56:08 -0400 Received: from dyg ([128.186.189.90]) by mail.mandira.co.id with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:55:30 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c8027e$dea354c0$5abdba80@dyg> From: To: Subject: New yacht hits 81 MPH Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:55:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 FRLE's New Yacht Leaves Others In Its Wake! 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From ospf-bounces@ietf.org Sat Sep 29 12:22:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ibeze-0003pR-Ue; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:16:38 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ibezd-0003oK-VX for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:16:37 -0400 Received: from prattle.redback.com ([155.53.12.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbezW-00021z-Vp for ospf@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:16:37 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85695B2F06A; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (prattle [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30128-06; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [ZJ??O??IPv6???1] (login005.redback.com [155.53.12.64]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0566B2F065; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:16:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0JP4003A46GNH7@szxga04-in.huawei.com> References: <0JP4003A46GNH7@szxga04-in.huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9EC5966D-6B20-4456-A2FC-BFBD2DD60CB9@redback.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Acee Lindem Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Posting of draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-traffic-09.txt Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:15:02 -0400 To: Mach Chen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at redback.com X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68ba2b07ef271dba6ee42a93832cfa4c Cc: CCAMP List , OSPF List , Vishwas Manral X-BeenThere: ospf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Official IETF OSPG WG Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ospf-bounces@ietf.org Hi Mach, On Sep 29, 2007, at 1:12 AM, Mach Chen wrote: > Hi Acee , > > Sorroy for late reply. > > On 2007-09-26, at 22:14:36 Acee Lindem wrote: > >> Hi Mach, >> >> On Sep 26, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Mach Chen wrote: >> >>> Hi Acee, >>> >>> Pls see inline >>> >>> >>> On 2007-09-25, at 21:05:49 Acee Lindem wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mach, >>>> Thanks for reviewing. >>>> >>>> On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Mach Chen wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Acee and other authors, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some questions to ospfv3-traffic >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. In this ospfv3-traffic document, a new LSA, Intra-Area-TE >>>>> LSA, is defined to advertise IPv6 TE information. =46rom name of =20= >>>>> this >>>>> new LSA, IMHO, it is limited to be used for Intra-Area TE only. =20= >>>>> So, >>>>> if there are some underlying extensions to ospfv3-traffic, e.g. >>>>> Inter-AS TE, it is a little bit strange to re-use the Intra-=20 >>>>> Area-TE >>>>> LSA, or it has to define a new LSA. So, can we change its name to >>>>> something like =93OSPFv3 TE LSA=94? >>>> It would be if we had intended it to carry AS wide information. >>>> However, it was not initially intended for this. The initial =20 >>>> thought >>>> was that we would do a better job for OSPFv3 and define separate =20= >>>> LSA >>>> types for intra-area, inter-area, and AS external TE LSAs. Thoughts >>>> on this (copied ccamp as well)? >>> >>> So, the conclusion is that a new LSA(may be called Inter-AS-TE LSA) >>> has to be defined for advertising inter-AS TE information in >>> support of OSPFv3 TE, am I right? >>> >>>> I guess, IMHO, this discrepancy >>>> exposes the choice of a new link type for inter-AS connectivity =20 >>>> as a >>>> bit of a hack. >>>> >>> >>> For OSPFv3 TE(separate LSAs are used) is YES. But as to OSPFv2 TE, >>> IMHO, there should be a new link type to identify an inter-AS link, >>> or we need another new LSA. >> >> >> It seems to me that if we do add the link in your draft, then it >> should be done the same in OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. Advertising it as a new >> link type is one way to advertise inter-AS connectivity. However, it >> isn't necessarily a link. This seems to me to be more of a semantical >> discrepancy than the name of the LSA. In section 4, I notice that at >> least for OSPFv2 the draft says the new link may be advertised in >> either a type 11 opaque LSA or type 10 opaque LSA. Given the maturity >> of RFC 3630, it almost seems to me that we should allocate a new LSA >> opaque type for this purpose. >> >> What is the status of draft-ietf-ccamp-ospf-interas-te- >> extension-01.txt? > > > The I-D has been updated recently according to the comments =20 > received from Chicago meeting. The main changes inlcude: > > 1. According to Kireeti's comments, make a clear statement "There =20 > is no OSPF adjacency running on the inter-AS link"; > > 2. Enhance the PCE-based scenario to explain that the AS number =20 > property of an inter-AS TE link is needed, and clearly state that =20 > the AS number sub-TLV is mandatory; > > 3. Add the missing part about that the local ASBR SHOULD do a =20 > "proxy" advertisement for the backward of an inter-AS TE link; > > 4. Enhance the Security section. > > Currently, IMHO, the I-D can support OSPFv2 properly, due to the =20 > diffence between OSPFv2 TE and OSPFv3 TE, some changes are needed =20 > in order to encompass OSPFv3, so the status of the I-D is "work in =20 > progress":) Ok - will review the next version. > >> I know at the OSPF meeting there were a number of people who >> questioned whether or not it was necessary. > > I am not sure the necessary you pointed is pointed to the new link =20 > type or the Inter-AS TE I-D. Because I did not hear any questions =20 > about the necessary of the I-D, so I assume that you poinited is =20 > the new link type. As I pointed before, if a new sepatate LSA is =20 > used, the new link type may not be needed. Sounds good, I haven't seen much dissension on the CCAMP list. Thanks, Acee > >> >> Thanks, >> Acee >> > > > > Best regards, =09 > Mach Chen > _______________________________________________ OSPF mailing list OSPF@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf From octavian986@unity3d.com Sat Sep 29 19:32:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IblnL-0008G4-V9 for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:32:23 -0400 Received: from [85.94.114.149] (helo=[85.94.114.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IblnJ-0002PA-M4 for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:32:23 -0400 Received: from amd ([115.125.148.164]:26826 "EHLO amd" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [85.94.114.149] with ESMTP id S22GEYQPXLYQNFUA (ORCPT ); Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:32:49 +0200 Message-ID: <1C0D69F1.A7958369@unity3d.com> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:32:33 +0200 From: "octavian Harder" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: {silamat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Hello ospf-archive Urgent alert. Look at DM XC! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Get it at monday sinaviat sikikant simeluuk silicoma From GeofferyRuby@SMS.BE Sun Sep 30 06:45:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbwIH-0001JK-Gq for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:45:01 -0400 Received: from c8fe500c3.dhcp.bluecom.no ([195.0.229.143]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbwIH-0007m0-1P for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:45:01 -0400 Received: from firmanav-v0vdn3 ([104.139.163.115] helo=firmanav-v0vdn3) by c8FE500C3.dhcp.bluecom.no ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1NBnpf-000YNR-mN for ospf-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:45:18 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c8034e$f1deebf0$8fe500c3@firmanavv0vdn3> From: "Geoffery Ruby" To: Subject: akrv Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:44:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C8035F.B567BBF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C8035F.B567BBF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello ospf-archive Urgent alert. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C803F3.FC5A6D20--