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From: Alexa Morris <amorris@amsl.com>
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Subject: [OSPF] Queue for OSPF Remote Attendees
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If you are planning to participate in the ospf session here at IETF 94 =
today =97 either locally in Yokohama or as a remote participant =97 we =
want to make sure that you are aware that the IETF is providing remote =
participants with a fairly new way to ask questions or make comments. In =
addition to using the Jabber room, for the ospf session there is also =
the opportunity for remote participants to enter a virtual queue and ask =
questions directly into the meeting room.=20

This experimental queue was used in several sessions at IETF 92 and IETF =
93, so you may have already seen it in action. There will be two queues =
for the ospf session =97 a virtual queue and an actual (in-room) queue. =
Remote attendees will log into the Meetecho platform and will have a =
virtual mic line that they can enter if they have a question or comment. =
In-room participants will continue to use normal mic lines.=20

Instructions for remote participants are at =
http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Remote_Participation.=20

Information on how to join the Meetecho session is at =
http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/.

Verify that you are WebRTC compliant (required to use the virtual queue) =
by performing a self-test here: =
http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Self_Test.=20

Regards,
Alexa

----------
Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF
48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA  94538
Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001
Email: amorris@amsl.com

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From nobody Tue Nov  3 20:59:53 2015
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From: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 23:59:46 -0500
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] IPR disclosures
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OSPF Folks,

I think prompt IPR disclosures are important.

My understanding is that anyone aware of -possibly relevant-
IPR that is held by one=E2=80=99s employer needs to disclose that=20
promptly.

Separately, my understanding is that if anyone is aware
of -possibly relevant- IPR held by a 3rd party=20
(e.g. previous employer) needs to make a 3rd party disclosure=20
promptly.

I think the above summary is accurate, but the precise=20
(and much longer) *official* IETF wording about IPR=20
can be found here:

	"http://www.ietf.org/ipr/=E2=80=9C


In particular, the 3rd-party IPR disclosure web page form is here:

	"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/new-third-party/=E2=80=9C

Yours,

Ran





From nobody Tue Nov  3 23:47:25 2015
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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 02:47:20 -0500
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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Congratulations on a durable and critical protocol!

Alia

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Date: Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 2:44 AM
Subject: Oldest Running IETF w.g.
To: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>


Some additional information from Bob Hinden:

> For what it is worth, looking at the proceedings from IETF 9, see:
>
>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09.pdf <
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09.pdf>
>
> It lists the OSPF working group.  I think that makes it the old still
running w.g.  The proceedings are dated March 1-2, 1988.
>
> I think that makes it about 27 years.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Congratulations on a durable and critical protocol!</=
div><div><br></div><div>Alia</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">----------=
 Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Jari A=
rkko</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net">jari=
.arkko@piuha.net</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 2:44 AM<br>Sub=
ject: Oldest Running IETF w.g.<br>To: IETF discussion list &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ietf@ietf.org">ietf@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><br><br>Some additional infor=
mation from Bob Hinden:<br>
<br>
&gt; For what it is worth, looking at the proceedings from IETF 9, see:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09.pdf" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09.pdf</a> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09.pdf" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09.pdf</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It lists the OSPF working group.=C2=A0 I think that makes it the old s=
till running w.g.=C2=A0 The proceedings are dated March 1-2, 1988.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think that makes it about 27 years.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><br></div>

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Thread-Topic: [OSPF] IPR disclosures
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From nobody Wed Nov  4 14:36:14 2015
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References: <631094CE-A59D-4521-9DC9-E60CB9DC0D18@gmail.com> <650005BA-47C7-4C9C-8FA1-E5BEEC1DF580@piuha.net> <CAG4d1rfJE2oraf0pYdXVB_YsmX_3bybTYFTe108K8wtz9UmYOw@mail.gmail.com> <3687e659ac729d6644e41a4f7df87fb5@zeta2.ch>
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: prz <prz@zeta2.ch>
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Fwd: Oldest Running IETF w.g.
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LoL

Tony,

I'm equally proud of all my IGP working groups.

Given that all quips are in jest only, I look forward to an informative
isis meeting today too.

Alia
On Nov 5, 2015 7:30 AM, "prz" <prz@zeta2.ch> wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 02:47:20 -0500, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Congratulations on a durable and critical protocol!
>>
>> Alia
>>
>
>
> How many times did THEY have to recharter :-P
>
> And we all know which protocol has the _older_ spec ;-)
>
> All in jest; I'm allowed that after Acee yesterday ran completely
> unchecked during
> the working group, am I not ?  :-P
>
> --- tony
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">LoL</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m equally proud of all my IGP working groups.=C2=A0 </=
p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Given that all quips are in jest only, I look forward to an =
informative isis meeting today too.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Alia </p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 5, 2015 7:30 AM, &quot;prz&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:prz@zeta2.ch">prz@zeta2.ch</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribut=
ion"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 02:47:20 -0500, Alia=
 Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Congratulations on a durable and critical protocol!<br>
<br>
Alia<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
How many times did THEY have to recharter :-P<br>
<br>
And we all know which protocol has the _older_ spec ;-)<br>
<br>
All in jest; I&#39;m allowed that after Acee yesterday ran completely unche=
cked during<br>
the working group, am I not ?=C2=A0 :-P<br>
<br>
--- tony<br>
</blockquote></div>

--089e013a097227a7360523bea356--


From nobody Wed Nov  4 16:28:25 2015
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To: "ospf@ietf.org" <ospf@ietf.org>
From: Abhay Roy <akr@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:28:14 +0900
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Subject: [OSPF] IETF94 OSPF WG Minutes
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We have posted the minutes, and it's available at the link below. Please 
let us know of any corrections.

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/minutes/minutes-94-ospf

Thanks Les Ginsberg (again!) for taking minutes.

Regards,
-Abhay


From nobody Wed Nov  4 16:41:08 2015
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There are slightly more nuances.  Active contributors have
more responsibility.  The NOTE WELL tries to mention this.
For those truly interested, reading RFC 3979 and RFC 4879
would be useful.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:59 PM, RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> OSPF Folks,
>
> I think prompt IPR disclosures are important.
>
> My understanding is that anyone aware of -possibly relevant-
> IPR that is held by one=E2=80=99s employer needs to disclose that
> promptly.
>
> Separately, my understanding is that if anyone is aware
> of -possibly relevant- IPR held by a 3rd party
> (e.g. previous employer) needs to make a 3rd party disclosure
> promptly.
>
> I think the above summary is accurate, but the precise
> (and much longer) *official* IETF wording about IPR
> can be found here:
>
>         "http://www.ietf.org/ipr/=E2=80=9C
>
>
> In particular, the 3rd-party IPR disclosure web page form is here:
>
>         "https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/new-third-party/=E2=80=9C
>
> Yours,
>
> Ran
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSPF mailing list
> OSPF@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>

--e89a8fb1f33ac2ab170523c05fcc
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<div dir=3D"ltr">There are slightly more nuances.=C2=A0 Active contributors=
 have<div>more responsibility.=C2=A0 The NOTE WELL tries to mention this.</=
div><div>For those truly interested, reading RFC 3979 and RFC 4879</div><di=
v>would be useful.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alia</div></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 3=
, 2015 at 11:59 PM, RJ Atkinson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rja=
.lists@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rja.lists@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">OSPF Folks,<br>
<br>
I think prompt IPR disclosures are important.<br>
<br>
My understanding is that anyone aware of -possibly relevant-<br>
IPR that is held by one=E2=80=99s employer needs to disclose that<br>
promptly.<br>
<br>
Separately, my understanding is that if anyone is aware<br>
of -possibly relevant- IPR held by a 3rd party<br>
(e.g. previous employer) needs to make a 3rd party disclosure<br>
promptly.<br>
<br>
I think the above summary is accurate, but the precise<br>
(and much longer) *official* IETF wording about IPR<br>
can be found here:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/ipr/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ipr/</a>=E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
<br>
In particular, the 3rd-party IPR disclosure web page form is here:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/i=
pr/new-third-party/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/ipr/new-third-party/</a>=E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
<br>
Ran<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
OSPF mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org">OSPF@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--e89a8fb1f33ac2ab170523c05fcc--


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From: "Wunan (Eric)" <eric.wu@huawei.com>
To: OSPF List <ospf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Fwd: Oldest Running IETF w.g.
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--_000_0F26584357FD124DB93F1535E4B0A6505FC82145szxema508mbxchi_--


From nobody Thu Nov  5 00:12:13 2015
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From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com>
References: <D24CF2B7.37452%acee@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292E9628E4172C733C59BA8A9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627CDF6.605@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292B99DA8B1B9E253A0E83BA9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627F457.8020701@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB2927E888C41831AF2786280A9270@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <CAG4d1rctdk6QcrhjEj2n-1VM2HTzQJvFxgamneis+fsiH0rcTw@mail.gmail.com> <562917FE.6070100@cisco.com> <D252C136.384AC%acee@cisco.com> <E70EB200-09AE-464C-A0B2-38F480489F16@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Hi Jeff,

Following the WG session yesterday, I'm glad to (lately) join the 
thread. Please, see my comments below as [JM].


Oct. 26, 2015 - jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com:
> Hi,
> No hats
>
> I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue, this draft solves real problem.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff

[JM] Then you may consider patching them to do parameter duplication on 
the receiver side, not on the wire and/or the emitter configuration...
Do you imagine operational people tearing hair out while trying to guess 
if they need to configure SRLGs in here, there or both? All the more as 
two places would multiply configuration discrepancies.

In the I-D, the beginning and the end of section 3.1 provide a good summary:
- "One approach for advertising link attributes is to _continue_ to use 
TE Opaque LSA"
- advantages: "no additional standardization requirement", "link 
attributes are only advertised once".
I cannot agree more on these.

In other words, some new use cases, not matching the original one, do 
not justify to allocate new code points to the same information (cf. 
IS-IS non-issue). In the IETF, uses cases aim at scoping protocol work, 
they aren't made to limit protocol future uses.

Cheers,

Julien


From nobody Thu Nov  5 00:21:09 2015
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From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
To: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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Hi again,

One more point below:

Oct. 22, 2015 - Peter Psenak:
>> The TE Opaque LSA would be, presumably, required if SPRING is supported
>> which has no implications on whether RSVP-TE is enabled.
>
> SPRING does not use TE Opaque LSA.

[JM] Just a quote from draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing:
"The list of segments can be specified explicitly or implicitly via a 
set of abstract constraints (latency, affinity, SRLG, ...). In the 
latter case, a constraint-based path computation is used to determine 
the list of segments associated with the tunnel. The computation can be 
local or delegated to a PCE server."
Though, in the Routing area, "constraint-based path computation" and 
"affinity, SRLG" usually rely on TE/GMPLS opaque LSAs, you may advocate 
this is only implicit... However, when it comes to PCE, the references 
to RFC 3630 and 4203 extensions are explicit.

Regards,

Julien


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Julien,

On 11/5/15 09:20 , Julien Meuric wrote:
> Hi again,
>
> One more point below:
>
> Oct. 22, 2015 - Peter Psenak:
>>> The TE Opaque LSA would be, presumably, required if SPRING is supported
>>> which has no implications on whether RSVP-TE is enabled.
>>
>> SPRING does not use TE Opaque LSA.
>
> [JM] Just a quote from draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing:
> "The list of segments can be specified explicitly or implicitly via a
> set of abstract constraints (latency, affinity, SRLG, ...). In the
> latter case, a constraint-based path computation is used to determine
> the list of segments associated with the tunnel. The computation can be
> local or delegated to a PCE server."
> Though, in the Routing area, "constraint-based path computation" and
> "affinity, SRLG" usually rely on TE/GMPLS opaque LSAs, you may advocate
> this is only implicit...

that is fine. If you want to do traffic engineering, you should use TE 
Opaque LSAs.

We are talking about link attributes that are NOT used for TE at all. 
For example SRLG to be used for LFA. In that case you do NOT want to do 
any TE.

Peter

> However, when it comes to PCE, the references
> to RFC 3630 and 4203 extensions are explicit.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julien
> .
>


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Hi Julien,

On 11/5/15 09:12 , Julien Meuric wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
>
> Following the WG session yesterday, I'm glad to (lately) join the
> thread. Please, see my comments below as [JM].
>
>
> Oct. 26, 2015 - jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com:
>> Hi,
>> No hats
>>
>> I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue,
>> this draft solves real problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jeff
>
> [JM] Then you may consider patching them to do parameter duplication on
> the receiver side, not on the wire and/or the emitter configuration...
> Do you imagine operational people tearing hair out while trying to guess
> if they need to configure SRLGs in here, there or both? All the more as
> two places would multiply configuration discrepancies.

above is incorrect.
Nobody is proposing to configure things like SRLG on multiple places.
You configure it on a single place, as you do today. If IGP is enabled 
for global SRLG protection, IGP pulls the SRLGs and advertise them in 
the Extended Prefix LSA. If TE is enabled and want to use SRLGs, it 
pulls it from the same place, form the TE Opaque LSA and asks IGP to 
flood it.

>
> In the I-D, the beginning and the end of section 3.1 provide a good
> summary:
> - "One approach for advertising link attributes is to _continue_ to use
> TE Opaque LSA"
> - advantages: "no additional standardization requirement", "link
> attributes are only advertised once".
> I cannot agree more on these.

have you read the "disadvantage" section as well?

>
> In other words, some new use cases, not matching the original one, do
> not justify to allocate new code points to the same information (cf.
> IS-IS non-issue). In the IETF, uses cases aim at scoping protocol work,
> they aren't made to limit protocol future uses.

I;m afraid you are missing the point.
TE Opaquer LSA are defined as LSAs that advertise TE topology that is 
disjoint from the IGP topology (RFC3630). We can NOT make the link part 
of the TE topology, just because we want to advertise SRLG or some other 
attribute that is used by IGP for LFA - that would break the RFC3630.

thanks,
Peter

>
> Cheers,
>
> Julien
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSPF mailing list
> OSPF@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
> .
>


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Hello Peter,

Nov. 05, 2015 - ppsenak@cisco.com:
> Hi Julien,
>
> On 11/5/15 09:12 , Julien Meuric wrote:
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> Following the WG session yesterday, I'm glad to (lately) join the
>> thread. Please, see my comments below as [JM].
>>
>>
>> Oct. 26, 2015 - jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com:
>>> Hi,
>>> No hats
>>>
>>> I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue,
>>> this draft solves real problem.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jeff
>>
>> [JM] Then you may consider patching them to do parameter duplication on
>> the receiver side, not on the wire and/or the emitter configuration...
>> Do you imagine operational people tearing hair out while trying to guess
>> if they need to configure SRLGs in here, there or both? All the more as
>> two places would multiply configuration discrepancies.
>
> above is incorrect.
> Nobody is proposing to configure things like SRLG on multiple places.
[JM] Actually you do in the I-D: "it is expected that the information 
would be identical. If they are different..."

> You configure it on a single place, as you do today. If IGP is enabled
> for global SRLG protection, IGP pulls the SRLGs and advertise them in
> the Extended Prefix LSA. If TE is enabled and want to use SRLGs, it
> pulls it from the same place, form the TE Opaque LSA and asks IGP to
> flood it.
[JM] This reads to me like "in case both types of LSAs are used, values 
MUST be identical". This is very different from the loose text in your I-D.

>
>>
>> In the I-D, the beginning and the end of section 3.1 provide a good
>> summary:
>> - "One approach for advertising link attributes is to _continue_ to use
>> TE Opaque LSA"
>> - advantages: "no additional standardization requirement", "link
>> attributes are only advertised once".
>> I cannot agree more on these.
>
> have you read the "disadvantage" section as well?
[JM] Of course not, since Shraddha already solved them in his original 
e-mail. :-)

>>
>> In other words, some new use cases, not matching the original one, do
>> not justify to allocate new code points to the same information (cf.
>> IS-IS non-issue). In the IETF, uses cases aim at scoping protocol work,
>> they aren't made to limit protocol future uses.
>
> I;m afraid you are missing the point.
> TE Opaquer LSA are defined as LSAs that advertise TE topology that is
> disjoint from the IGP topology (RFC3630). We can NOT make the link part
> of the TE topology, just because we want to advertise SRLG or some other
> attribute that is used by IGP for LFA - that would break the RFC3630.
[JM] Indeed, I am missing the point where a link state protocol is 
forbidden to access the link parameters it is distributing in its link 
state advertisements. Please, point me to the section from RFC 3630 it 
"breaks".

>
> thanks,
> Peter
>
[JM] You're welcome,

Julien

>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Julien
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSPF mailing list
>> OSPF@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>> .
>>
>


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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Julien,

On 11/5/15 11:03 , Julien Meuric wrote:
> Hello Peter,
>
> Nov. 05, 2015 - ppsenak@cisco.com:
>> Hi Julien,
>>
>> On 11/5/15 09:12 , Julien Meuric wrote:
>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>
>>> Following the WG session yesterday, I'm glad to (lately) join the
>>> thread. Please, see my comments below as [JM].
>>>
>>>
>>> Oct. 26, 2015 - jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> No hats
>>>>
>>>> I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue,
>>>> this draft solves real problem.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> [JM] Then you may consider patching them to do parameter duplication on
>>> the receiver side, not on the wire and/or the emitter configuration...
>>> Do you imagine operational people tearing hair out while trying to guess
>>> if they need to configure SRLGs in here, there or both? All the more as
>>> two places would multiply configuration discrepancies.
>>
>> above is incorrect.
>> Nobody is proposing to configure things like SRLG on multiple places.
> [JM] Actually you do in the I-D: "it is expected that the information
> would be identical. If they are different..."

above talks about the LSA content, not about the configuration.

>
>> You configure it on a single place, as you do today. If IGP is enabled
>> for global SRLG protection, IGP pulls the SRLGs and advertise them in
>> the Extended Prefix LSA. If TE is enabled and want to use SRLGs, it
>> pulls it from the same place, form the TE Opaque LSA and asks IGP to
>> flood it.
> [JM] This reads to me like "in case both types of LSAs are used, values
> MUST be identical". This is very different from the loose text in your I-D.

I would think that that would always be identical, if advertised in both 
LSAs. But from the protocol encoding perspective, we can not prevent 
values being different - e.g. transition case where config of SRLG on 
remote node changes and two LSAs arrive asynchronously.

>
>>
>>>
>>> In the I-D, the beginning and the end of section 3.1 provide a good
>>> summary:
>>> - "One approach for advertising link attributes is to _continue_ to use
>>> TE Opaque LSA"
>>> - advantages: "no additional standardization requirement", "link
>>> attributes are only advertised once".
>>> I cannot agree more on these.
>>
>> have you read the "disadvantage" section as well?
> [JM] Of course not, since Shraddha already solved them in his original
> e-mail. :-)

I'm afraid she did not.

>
>>>
>>> In other words, some new use cases, not matching the original one, do
>>> not justify to allocate new code points to the same information (cf.
>>> IS-IS non-issue). In the IETF, uses cases aim at scoping protocol work,
>>> they aren't made to limit protocol future uses.
>>
>> I;m afraid you are missing the point.
>> TE Opaquer LSA are defined as LSAs that advertise TE topology that is
>> disjoint from the IGP topology (RFC3630). We can NOT make the link part
>> of the TE topology, just because we want to advertise SRLG or some other
>> attribute that is used by IGP for LFA - that would break the RFC3630.
> [JM] Indeed, I am missing the point where a link state protocol is
> forbidden to access the link parameters it is distributing in its link
> state advertisements. Please, point me to the section from RFC 3630 it
> "breaks".


RFC3630:

    "The extensions provide a way of describing the traffic engineering
    topology (including bandwidth and administrative constraints) and
    distributing this information within a given OSPF area.  This
    topology does not necessarily match the regular routed topology,"

If you want to advertise SRLG for a link (to be used for LFA), but you 
do not want to make the link part of the traffic engineering topology, 
how do you do that?

regards,
Peter

>
>>
>> thanks,
>> Peter
>>
> [JM] You're welcome,
>
> Julien
>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Julien
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSPF mailing list
>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>> .
>>>
>>
> .
>


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From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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On 11/4/15, 4:44 PM, "ietf on behalf of Jari Arkko" <ietf-bounces@ietf.org
on behalf of jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:

>Some additional information from Bob Hinden:
>
>> For what it is worth, looking at the proceedings from IETF 9, see:
>>=20
>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09.pdf
>>><http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09.pdf>
>>=20
>> It lists the OSPF working group.  I think that makes it the old still
>>running w.g.  The proceedings are dated March 1-2, 1988.
>>=20
>> I think that makes it about 27 years.

The datatracker says that the current charter was last updated on March 1,
1988.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-ospf/


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Subject: Re: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
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Hi Acee,

Sorry for the late response.

We will add the following text in the next update

=E2=80=9CWhen multiple S-BFD discriminators are advertised how a given
discriminator is mapped to a specific use case is out of scope for this
document.=E2=80=9D

Will address the other minor comments in the next rev.

Cheers, Manav

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

> I have one major comments and I=E2=80=99ve copied Alvaro since he is revi=
ewing the
> base S-BFD drafts.
>
>   If an OSPF router advertises multiple BFD discriminators, how do the
> other OSPF routers in the OSPF routing domain map the S-BFD discriminator=
s
> to the OSPF router IP endpoints and services?
>
> I also have some minor comments:
>
>   1) This draft should reference the RFC 4970BIS draft as this is in RFC
> EDIT state.
>   2) Section 2.1 - The base RFC 4970BIS draft states that unrecognized
> TLVs are ignored (as stated in section 3). This is not specific to this
> TLV.
>   3) Section 2.2 - This says the Opaque ID must be 0. Note that an OSPF
> router can now originate multiple OSPF RI LSAs instances. I think this TL=
V
> should be allowed in an OSPF RI LSA subsequent to the first.
>   4) Section 2.2 - I don=E2=80=99t think we should advocate sending an em=
pty OSPF
> Router Information LSA. I=E2=80=99d remove this case.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSPF mailing list
> OSPF@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Acee,<div><br></div><div>Sorry for the late response.</=
div><div><br></div><div>We will add the following text in the next update</=
div><div><br></div>=E2=80=9CWhen multiple S-BFD discriminators are=C2=A0adv=
ertised how a given discriminator is mapped to a specific use case=C2=A0is =
out of scope for this document.=E2=80=9D<div><br></div><div>Will address th=
e other minor comments in the next rev.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers, Ma=
nav<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oc=
t 26, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">acee@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I have one major comments and I=E2=80=
=99ve copied Alvaro since he is reviewing the<br>
base S-BFD drafts.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 If an OSPF router advertises multiple BFD discriminators, how do the=
<br>
other OSPF routers in the OSPF routing domain map the S-BFD discriminators<=
br>
to the OSPF router IP endpoints and services?<br>
<br>
I also have some minor comments:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 1) This draft should reference the RFC 4970BIS draft as this is in R=
FC<br>
EDIT state.<br>
=C2=A0 2) Section 2.1 - The base RFC 4970BIS draft states that unrecognized=
<br>
TLVs are ignored (as stated in section 3). This is not specific to this<br>
TLV.<br>
=C2=A0 3) Section 2.2 - This says the Opaque ID must be 0. Note that an OSP=
F<br>
router can now originate multiple OSPF RI LSAs instances. I think this TLV<=
br>
should be allowed in an OSPF RI LSA subsequent to the first.<br>
=C2=A0 4) Section 2.2 - I don=E2=80=99t think we should advocate sending an=
 empty OSPF<br>
Router Information LSA. I=E2=80=99d remove this case.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Acee<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--001a114fbd0c16fe910523d61933--


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 14:57:56 +0000
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References: <D24CF2B7.37452%acee@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292E9628E4172C733C59BA8A9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627CDF6.605@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292B99DA8B1B9E253A0E83BA9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627F457.8020701@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB2927E888C41831AF2786280A9270@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <CAG4d1rctdk6QcrhjEj2n-1VM2HTzQJvFxgamneis+fsiH0rcTw@mail.gmail.com> <562917FE.6070100@cisco.com> <D252C136.384AC%acee@cisco.com> <E70EB200-09AE-464C-A0B2-38F480489F16@ericsson.com> <563B0F53.8010803@orange.com> <563B15E0.90101@cisco.com> <563B2978.10507@orange.com>
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags 
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 14:58:04 +0000
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Subject: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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From nobody Sat Nov  7 08:59:31 2015
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Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:59:26 -0500
Message-ID: <CAG4d1reTNUsFf8FVm1Vd_eGLwjeYDk_pHXUv1Z-uWR8N-SNDuw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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Hi Acee,

Thanks very much for reading through and pulling out the relevant questions=
.
I'd like to see this conversation resolve quickly.

On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Shraddha,
>
> I=E2=80=99ve read through this discussion and I=E2=80=99m wondering why w=
e just can=E2=80=99t
> remove this normative text with respect to the interpretation of OSPF Nod=
e
> Admin tags?
>
>    1. Since the tags are advertised by a single node, why is do they have
> to be unordered? It seems there should be a reason for this even if this
> semantic is retained.
>

I can understand this restriction in terms of implementation complexity &
assumptions.  A router that receives the tag list might want to store them
in
numerical order or such for easier searching.  If the tag order matters,
there
can be rather different requirements in terms of how the listener uses the
information.


>    2. Why can=E2=80=99t they be advertised in multiple flooding scopes? T=
here
> could be one set of tags applicable at the area scope and another
> applicable at the AS wide scope.
>

I agree that I don't see implementation complexity logic driving this.
Perhaps
it allows for storing tags per device in a flat structure instead of
requiring that
they are stored per area?

Regardless, this feels like it has more impact on operational complexity of
having to define the same meaning for different tags for different areas.

Regards,
Alia


> In essence, since the tags are purely opaque, it seems you could simply
> remove the last 2-3 paragraphs of section 3.2.1 and the last paragraph of
> section 3.2.2 as these seem to be rather arbitrary restrictions.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSPF mailing list
> OSPF@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Acee,<div><br></div><div>Thanks very much for reading t=
hrough and pulling out the relevant questions.</div><div>I&#39;d like to se=
e this conversation resolve quickly.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Acee Lindem (acee)=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">=
acee@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi S=
hraddha,<br>
<br>
I=E2=80=99ve read through this discussion and I=E2=80=99m wondering why we =
just can=E2=80=99t<br>
remove this normative text with respect to the interpretation of OSPF Node<=
br>
Admin tags?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Since the tags are advertised by a single node, why is do t=
hey have<br>
to be unordered? It seems there should be a reason for this even if this<br=
>
semantic is retained.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can understand =
this restriction in terms of implementation complexity &amp;</div><div>assu=
mptions.=C2=A0 A router that receives the tag list might want to store them=
 in</div><div>numerical order or such for easier searching.=C2=A0 If the ta=
g order matters, there</div><div>can be rather different requirements in te=
rms of how the listener uses the</div><div>information.</div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Why can=E2=80=99t they be advertised in multiple flooding s=
copes? There<br>
could be one set of tags applicable at the area scope and another<br>
applicable at the AS wide scope.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agre=
e that I don&#39;t see implementation complexity logic driving this.=C2=A0 =
Perhaps</div><div>it allows for storing tags per device in a flat structure=
 instead of requiring that</div><div>they are stored per area?=C2=A0</div><=
div><br></div><div>Regardless, this feels like it has more impact on operat=
ional complexity of</div><div>having to define the same meaning for differe=
nt tags for different areas.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Al=
ia</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
In essence, since the tags are purely opaque, it seems you could simply<br>
remove the last 2-3 paragraphs of section 3.2.1 and the last paragraph of<b=
r>
section 3.2.2 as these seem to be rather arbitrary restrictions.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Acee<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
OSPF mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org">OSPF@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Manav Bhatia <manavbhatia@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
Thread-Index: AQHRGDvPHGJIFP17wUyU2okv88d/op6USjYA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 22:24:14 +0000
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Manav Bhatia <manavbhatia@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Manav Bhatia <manavbhatia@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Manav Bhatia <manavbhatia@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 00:38:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
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To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com>
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From: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>
Organization: Orange
Message-ID: <5642209B.3010304@orange.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:51:39 +0100
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Hi Acee,

I think we do not need to agree on the philosophical question whether 
defining detour path by packet header instead of signaling states brings 
the feature out of TE...

Anyway we agree that consolidating information from 3 separates LSA is 
not the most efficient processing. My point is that this slight 
improvement does not balance the risk of inconsistent 
advertisements/configuration that the current I-D does not (even try to) 
prevent.

Regards,

Julien


Nov. 07, 2015 - acee@cisco.com:
> Hi Julien,
>
> One such non-TE application where there is a clear advantage of
> advertising these attributes is segment routing TI-LFA. In addition to all
> the detriments of requiring advertisement of TE LSAs when TE is not
> enabled, one would need to consolidate information for a link from 3
> separate LSAs (the base Router-LSA, the prefix-list attribute LSA for the
> adjacency SID, and the TE LSA). Clearly, it is better to advertise the
> applicable attributes in the Prefix/Link Attribute LSA and reduce this
> burden. You will note that this advantage isn’t apparent in IS-IS where
> everything is advertised in one monolithic LSP.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
> On 11/5/15, 7:03 PM, "OSPF on behalf of Julien Meuric"
> <ospf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of julien.meuric@orange.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello Peter,
>>
>> Nov. 05, 2015 - ppsenak@cisco.com:
>>> Hi Julien,
>>>
>>> On 11/5/15 09:12 , Julien Meuric wrote:
>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>
>>>> Following the WG session yesterday, I'm glad to (lately) join the
>>>> thread. Please, see my comments below as [JM].
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oct. 26, 2015 - jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> No hats
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue,
>>>>> this draft solves real problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>> [JM] Then you may consider patching them to do parameter duplication on
>>>> the receiver side, not on the wire and/or the emitter configuration...
>>>> Do you imagine operational people tearing hair out while trying to
>>>> guess
>>>> if they need to configure SRLGs in here, there or both? All the more as
>>>> two places would multiply configuration discrepancies.
>>>
>>> above is incorrect.
>>> Nobody is proposing to configure things like SRLG on multiple places.
>> [JM] Actually you do in the I-D: "it is expected that the information
>> would be identical. If they are different..."
>>
>>> You configure it on a single place, as you do today. If IGP is enabled
>>> for global SRLG protection, IGP pulls the SRLGs and advertise them in
>>> the Extended Prefix LSA. If TE is enabled and want to use SRLGs, it
>>> pulls it from the same place, form the TE Opaque LSA and asks IGP to
>>> flood it.
>> [JM] This reads to me like "in case both types of LSAs are used, values
>> MUST be identical". This is very different from the loose text in your
>> I-D.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the I-D, the beginning and the end of section 3.1 provide a good
>>>> summary:
>>>> - "One approach for advertising link attributes is to _continue_ to use
>>>> TE Opaque LSA"
>>>> - advantages: "no additional standardization requirement", "link
>>>> attributes are only advertised once".
>>>> I cannot agree more on these.
>>>
>>> have you read the "disadvantage" section as well?
>> [JM] Of course not, since Shraddha already solved them in his original
>> e-mail. :-)
>>
>>>>
>>>> In other words, some new use cases, not matching the original one, do
>>>> not justify to allocate new code points to the same information (cf.
>>>> IS-IS non-issue). In the IETF, uses cases aim at scoping protocol work,
>>>> they aren't made to limit protocol future uses.
>>>
>>> I;m afraid you are missing the point.
>>> TE Opaquer LSA are defined as LSAs that advertise TE topology that is
>>> disjoint from the IGP topology (RFC3630). We can NOT make the link part
>>> of the TE topology, just because we want to advertise SRLG or some other
>>> attribute that is used by IGP for LFA - that would break the RFC3630.
>> [JM] Indeed, I am missing the point where a link state protocol is
>> forbidden to access the link parameters it is distributing in its link
>> state advertisements. Please, point me to the section from RFC 3630 it
>> "breaks".
>>
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Peter
>>>
>> [JM] You're welcome,
>>
>> Julien
>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Julien
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSPF mailing list
>> OSPF@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Manav Bhatia <manavbhatia@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 21:16:22 +0000
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] More Comments on OSPF S-BFD Discriminator
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: Possible IPR on "OSPF Stub Neighbors" - draft-raza-ospf-stub-neighbor-02
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Julien Meuric <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:57:36 +0000
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References: <D24CF2B7.37452%acee@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292E9628E4172C733C59BA8A9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627CDF6.605@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292B99DA8B1B9E253A0E83BA9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627F457.8020701@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB2927E888C41831AF2786280A9270@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <CAG4d1rctdk6QcrhjEj2n-1VM2HTzQJvFxgamneis+fsiH0rcTw@mail.gmail.com> <562917FE.6070100@cisco.com> <D252C136.384AC%acee@cisco.com> <E70EB200-09AE-464C-A0B2-38F480489F16@ericsson.com> <563B0F53.8010803@orange.com> <563B15E0.90101@cisco.com> <563B2978.10507@orange.com> <D263B0C8.3CC87%acee@cisco.com> <5642209B.3010304@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 12:45:05 +0100
From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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References: <D24CF2B7.37452%acee@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292E9628E4172C733C59BA8A9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627CDF6.605@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292B99DA8B1B9E253A0E83BA9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627F457.8020701@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB2927E888C41831AF2786280A9270@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <CAG4d1rctdk6QcrhjEj2n-1VM2HTzQJvFxgamneis+fsiH0rcTw@mail.gmail.com> <562917FE.6070100@cisco.com> <D252C136.384AC%acee@cisco.com> <E70EB200-09AE-464C-A0B2-38F480489F16@ericsson.com> <563B0F53.8010803@orange.com> <563B15E0.90101@cisco.com> <563B2978.10507@orange.com> <D263B0C8.3CC87%acee@cisco.com> <5642209B.3010304@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Julien,

On 11/10/15 17:51 , Julien Meuric wrote:
> Hi Acee,
>
> I think we do not need to agree on the philosophical question whether
> defining detour path by packet header instead of signaling states brings
> the feature out of TE...
>
> Anyway we agree that consolidating information from 3 separates LSA is
> not the most efficient processing. My point is that this slight
> improvement does not balance the risk of inconsistent
> advertisements/configuration that the current I-D does not (even try to)
> prevent.

let me disagree. Current I-D clearly states what TE Opaque LSAs are used 
for.

The risk is when you do what you propose to do as it breaks the existing 
TE - e.g. you advertise the link in TE Opaque LSA and some remote router 
would try to establish a TE path via such link, even though the link is 
not enabled for that. Result is that the signaling would keep failing or 
in worst case, when signaling is not involved, traffic will be dropped 
when trying to use such link.


regards,
Peter

>
> Regards,
>
> Julien
>
>
> Nov. 07, 2015 - acee@cisco.com:
>> Hi Julien,
>>
>> One such non-TE application where there is a clear advantage of
>> advertising these attributes is segment routing TI-LFA. In addition to
>> all
>> the detriments of requiring advertisement of TE LSAs when TE is not
>> enabled, one would need to consolidate information for a link from 3
>> separate LSAs (the base Router-LSA, the prefix-list attribute LSA for the
>> adjacency SID, and the TE LSA). Clearly, it is better to advertise the
>> applicable attributes in the Prefix/Link Attribute LSA and reduce this
>> burden. You will note that this advantage isn’t apparent in IS-IS where
>> everything is advertised in one monolithic LSP.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>>
>> On 11/5/15, 7:03 PM, "OSPF on behalf of Julien Meuric"
>> <ospf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of julien.meuric@orange.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Peter,
>>>
>>> Nov. 05, 2015 - ppsenak@cisco.com:
>>>> Hi Julien,
>>>>
>>>> On 11/5/15 09:12 , Julien Meuric wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>>
>>>>> Following the WG session yesterday, I'm glad to (lately) join the
>>>>> thread. Please, see my comments below as [JM].
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oct. 26, 2015 - jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> No hats
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue,
>>>>>> this draft solves real problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> [JM] Then you may consider patching them to do parameter
>>>>> duplication on
>>>>> the receiver side, not on the wire and/or the emitter configuration...
>>>>> Do you imagine operational people tearing hair out while trying to
>>>>> guess
>>>>> if they need to configure SRLGs in here, there or both? All the
>>>>> more as
>>>>> two places would multiply configuration discrepancies.
>>>>
>>>> above is incorrect.
>>>> Nobody is proposing to configure things like SRLG on multiple places.
>>> [JM] Actually you do in the I-D: "it is expected that the information
>>> would be identical. If they are different..."
>>>
>>>> You configure it on a single place, as you do today. If IGP is enabled
>>>> for global SRLG protection, IGP pulls the SRLGs and advertise them in
>>>> the Extended Prefix LSA. If TE is enabled and want to use SRLGs, it
>>>> pulls it from the same place, form the TE Opaque LSA and asks IGP to
>>>> flood it.
>>> [JM] This reads to me like "in case both types of LSAs are used, values
>>> MUST be identical". This is very different from the loose text in your
>>> I-D.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the I-D, the beginning and the end of section 3.1 provide a good
>>>>> summary:
>>>>> - "One approach for advertising link attributes is to _continue_ to
>>>>> use
>>>>> TE Opaque LSA"
>>>>> - advantages: "no additional standardization requirement", "link
>>>>> attributes are only advertised once".
>>>>> I cannot agree more on these.
>>>>
>>>> have you read the "disadvantage" section as well?
>>> [JM] Of course not, since Shraddha already solved them in his original
>>> e-mail. :-)
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, some new use cases, not matching the original one, do
>>>>> not justify to allocate new code points to the same information (cf.
>>>>> IS-IS non-issue). In the IETF, uses cases aim at scoping protocol
>>>>> work,
>>>>> they aren't made to limit protocol future uses.
>>>>
>>>> I;m afraid you are missing the point.
>>>> TE Opaquer LSA are defined as LSAs that advertise TE topology that is
>>>> disjoint from the IGP topology (RFC3630). We can NOT make the link part
>>>> of the TE topology, just because we want to advertise SRLG or some
>>>> other
>>>> attribute that is used by IGP for LFA - that would break the RFC3630.
>>> [JM] Indeed, I am missing the point where a link state protocol is
>>> forbidden to access the link parameters it is distributing in its link
>>> state advertisements. Please, point me to the section from RFC 3630 it
>>> "breaks".
>>>
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>> [JM] You're welcome,
>>>
>>> Julien
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Julien
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSPF mailing list
>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>
> .
>


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From: <julien.meuric@orange.com>
To: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com>
References: <D24CF2B7.37452%acee@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292E9628E4172C733C59BA8A9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627CDF6.605@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB292B99DA8B1B9E253A0E83BA9380@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <5627F457.8020701@cisco.com> <BLUPR05MB2927E888C41831AF2786280A9270@BLUPR05MB292.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <CAG4d1rctdk6QcrhjEj2n-1VM2HTzQJvFxgamneis+fsiH0rcTw@mail.gmail.com> <562917FE.6070100@cisco.com> <D252C136.384AC%acee@cisco.com> <E70EB200-09AE-464C-A0B2-38F480489F16@ericsson.com> <563B0F53.8010803@orange.com> <563B15E0.90101@cisco.com> <563B2978.10507@orange.com> <D263B0C8.3CC87%acee@cisco.com> <5642209B.3010304@orange.com> <56447BC1.9080409@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Hi Peter,

See [JM] below.


Nov. 12, 2015 - ppsenak@cisco.com:
> Julien,
>
> On 11/10/15 17:51 , Julien Meuric wrote:
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>> I think we do not need to agree on the philosophical question whether
>> defining detour path by packet header instead of signaling states brings
>> the feature out of TE...
>>
>> Anyway we agree that consolidating information from 3 separates LSA is
>> not the most efficient processing. My point is that this slight
>> improvement does not balance the risk of inconsistent
>> advertisements/configuration that the current I-D does not (even try to)
>> prevent.
>
> let me disagree. Current I-D clearly states what TE Opaque LSAs are used
> for.

[JM] I am happy to quote Jeff on this: "thanks to GMPLS IGP extensions 
as per RFC's 4203 & 5307 SRLG info is there, it is up to implementation 
how to use it."
(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtgwg/yURBLVi2LqrEz33wKkauV0j9cmA)

>
> The risk is when you do what you propose to do as it breaks the existing
> TE

[JM] This is different from Acee's point: "usage of the TE LSAs for 
non-TE purposes was NEVER standardized". It is not about breaking, it is 
about documenting use cases beyond the original one.

  - e.g. you advertise the link in TE Opaque LSA and some remote router
> would try to establish a TE path via such link, even though the link is
> not enabled for that. Result is that the signaling would keep failing or
> in worst case, when signaling is not involved, traffic will be dropped
> when trying to use such link.

[JM] Supposing I am an operator who is playful enough to manage a 
network area using a topology for TE traffic that does not match the 
IP/LDP topology (you may find this realistic, I do not). Then, a router 
ignoring that an SRLG-enabled link has no available bandwidth/a specific 
affinity/a non-PSC switching capability/etc. is misbehaving.

Anyway, this moves beyond the issue at stake here. Acee states that some 
implementations need new definitions to go beyond the original use case. 
I would like to limit the number of fields opening the doors to 
operational inconsistencies. In these regards, an "applicability 
statement of TE LSA parameters beyond MPLS-TE" may be a way to address 
our concerns.

Enjoy the week-end,

Julien


>
>
> regards,
> Peter
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Julien
>>
>>
>> Nov. 07, 2015 - acee@cisco.com:
>>> Hi Julien,
>>>
>>> One such non-TE application where there is a clear advantage of
>>> advertising these attributes is segment routing TI-LFA. In addition to
>>> all
>>> the detriments of requiring advertisement of TE LSAs when TE is not
>>> enabled, one would need to consolidate information for a link from 3
>>> separate LSAs (the base Router-LSA, the prefix-list attribute LSA for
>>> the
>>> adjacency SID, and the TE LSA). Clearly, it is better to advertise the
>>> applicable attributes in the Prefix/Link Attribute LSA and reduce this
>>> burden. You will note that this advantage isn’t apparent in IS-IS where
>>> everything is advertised in one monolithic LSP.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Acee
>>>
>>> On 11/5/15, 7:03 PM, "OSPF on behalf of Julien Meuric"
>>> <ospf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of julien.meuric@orange.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Peter,
>>>>
>>>> Nov. 05, 2015 - ppsenak@cisco.com:
>>>>> Hi Julien,
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/15 09:12 , Julien Meuric wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Following the WG session yesterday, I'm glad to (lately) join the
>>>>>> thread. Please, see my comments below as [JM].
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oct. 26, 2015 - jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> No hats
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue,
>>>>>>> this draft solves real problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [JM] Then you may consider patching them to do parameter
>>>>>> duplication on
>>>>>> the receiver side, not on the wire and/or the emitter
>>>>>> configuration...
>>>>>> Do you imagine operational people tearing hair out while trying to
>>>>>> guess
>>>>>> if they need to configure SRLGs in here, there or both? All the
>>>>>> more as
>>>>>> two places would multiply configuration discrepancies.
>>>>>
>>>>> above is incorrect.
>>>>> Nobody is proposing to configure things like SRLG on multiple places.
>>>> [JM] Actually you do in the I-D: "it is expected that the information
>>>> would be identical. If they are different..."
>>>>
>>>>> You configure it on a single place, as you do today. If IGP is enabled
>>>>> for global SRLG protection, IGP pulls the SRLGs and advertise them in
>>>>> the Extended Prefix LSA. If TE is enabled and want to use SRLGs, it
>>>>> pulls it from the same place, form the TE Opaque LSA and asks IGP to
>>>>> flood it.
>>>> [JM] This reads to me like "in case both types of LSAs are used, values
>>>> MUST be identical". This is very different from the loose text in your
>>>> I-D.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the I-D, the beginning and the end of section 3.1 provide a good
>>>>>> summary:
>>>>>> - "One approach for advertising link attributes is to _continue_ to
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> TE Opaque LSA"
>>>>>> - advantages: "no additional standardization requirement", "link
>>>>>> attributes are only advertised once".
>>>>>> I cannot agree more on these.
>>>>>
>>>>> have you read the "disadvantage" section as well?
>>>> [JM] Of course not, since Shraddha already solved them in his original
>>>> e-mail. :-)
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, some new use cases, not matching the original one, do
>>>>>> not justify to allocate new code points to the same information (cf.
>>>>>> IS-IS non-issue). In the IETF, uses cases aim at scoping protocol
>>>>>> work,
>>>>>> they aren't made to limit protocol future uses.
>>>>>
>>>>> I;m afraid you are missing the point.
>>>>> TE Opaquer LSA are defined as LSAs that advertise TE topology that is
>>>>> disjoint from the IGP topology (RFC3630). We can NOT make the link
>>>>> part
>>>>> of the TE topology, just because we want to advertise SRLG or some
>>>>> other
>>>>> attribute that is used by IGP for LFA - that would break the RFC3630.
>>>> [JM] Indeed, I am missing the point where a link state protocol is
>>>> forbidden to access the link parameters it is distributing in its link
>>>> state advertisements. Please, point me to the section from RFC 3630 it
>>>> "breaks".
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>> [JM] You're welcome,
>>>>
>>>> Julien
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julien
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>
>> .
>>
>

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:24:44 +0100
From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Hi Julien,

please see inline:

On 11/13/15 17:47 , julien.meuric@orange.com wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> See [JM] below.
>
>
> Nov. 12, 2015 - ppsenak@cisco.com:
>> Julien,
>>
>> On 11/10/15 17:51 , Julien Meuric wrote:
>>> Hi Acee,
>>>
>>> I think we do not need to agree on the philosophical question whether
>>> defining detour path by packet header instead of signaling states brings
>>> the feature out of TE...
>>>
>>> Anyway we agree that consolidating information from 3 separates LSA is
>>> not the most efficient processing. My point is that this slight
>>> improvement does not balance the risk of inconsistent
>>> advertisements/configuration that the current I-D does not (even try to)
>>> prevent.
>>
>> let me disagree. Current I-D clearly states what TE Opaque LSAs are used
>> for.
>
> [JM] I am happy to quote Jeff on this: "thanks to GMPLS IGP extensions
> as per RFC's 4203 & 5307 SRLG info is there, it is up to implementation
> how to use it."
> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtgwg/yURBLVi2LqrEz33wKkauV0j9cmA)

Jeff is a co-author of the ospf-te-link-attr-reuse, so I let him express 
his opinion, but he has responded on the list already saying:

"I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue, 
this draft solves real problem."

>
>>
>> The risk is when you do what you propose to do as it breaks the existing
>> TE
>
> [JM] This is different from Acee's point: "usage of the TE LSAs for
> non-TE purposes was NEVER standardized". It is not about breaking, it is
> about documenting use cases beyond the original one.
>
>   - e.g. you advertise the link in TE Opaque LSA and some remote router
>> would try to establish a TE path via such link, even though the link is
>> not enabled for that. Result is that the signaling would keep failing or
>> in worst case, when signaling is not involved, traffic will be dropped
>> when trying to use such link.
>
> [JM] Supposing I am an operator who is playful enough to manage a
> network area using a topology for TE traffic that does not match the
> IP/LDP topology (you may find this realistic, I do not). Then, a router
> ignoring that an SRLG-enabled link has no available bandwidth/a specific
> affinity/a non-PSC switching capability/etc. is misbehaving.

well, that is not necessarily true, for example 0 bandwidth tunnels are 
often used. RFC3630 does not mandate bandwidth, affinity or any other 
link attributes in TE Opaque LSAs. Link Type and Link ID sub-TLVs are 
mandatory, rest are optional.

>
> Anyway, this moves beyond the issue at stake here. Acee states that some
> implementations need new definitions to go beyond the original use case.
> I would like to limit the number of fields opening the doors to
> operational inconsistencies. In these regards, an "applicability
> statement of TE LSA parameters beyond MPLS-TE" may be a way to address
> our concerns.

I'm afraid we can not afford to change the RCF that has been published 
12 years back. This would make it backward incompatible.

>
> Enjoy the week-end,

you too!

thanks,
Peter

>
> Julien
>
>
>>
>>
>> regards,
>> Peter
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Julien
>>>
>>>
>>> Nov. 07, 2015 - acee@cisco.com:
>>>> Hi Julien,
>>>>
>>>> One such non-TE application where there is a clear advantage of
>>>> advertising these attributes is segment routing TI-LFA. In addition to
>>>> all
>>>> the detriments of requiring advertisement of TE LSAs when TE is not
>>>> enabled, one would need to consolidate information for a link from 3
>>>> separate LSAs (the base Router-LSA, the prefix-list attribute LSA for
>>>> the
>>>> adjacency SID, and the TE LSA). Clearly, it is better to advertise the
>>>> applicable attributes in the Prefix/Link Attribute LSA and reduce this
>>>> burden. You will note that this advantage isn’t apparent in IS-IS where
>>>> everything is advertised in one monolithic LSP.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Acee
>>>>
>>>> On 11/5/15, 7:03 PM, "OSPF on behalf of Julien Meuric"
>>>> <ospf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of julien.meuric@orange.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Peter,
>>>>>
>>>>> Nov. 05, 2015 - ppsenak@cisco.com:
>>>>>> Hi Julien,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/5/15 09:12 , Julien Meuric wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Following the WG session yesterday, I'm glad to (lately) join the
>>>>>>> thread. Please, see my comments below as [JM].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oct. 26, 2015 - jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com:
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> No hats
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm familiar with at least 2 implementations which have this issue,
>>>>>>>> this draft solves real problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [JM] Then you may consider patching them to do parameter
>>>>>>> duplication on
>>>>>>> the receiver side, not on the wire and/or the emitter
>>>>>>> configuration...
>>>>>>> Do you imagine operational people tearing hair out while trying to
>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>> if they need to configure SRLGs in here, there or both? All the
>>>>>>> more as
>>>>>>> two places would multiply configuration discrepancies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> above is incorrect.
>>>>>> Nobody is proposing to configure things like SRLG on multiple places.
>>>>> [JM] Actually you do in the I-D: "it is expected that the information
>>>>> would be identical. If they are different..."
>>>>>
>>>>>> You configure it on a single place, as you do today. If IGP is
>>>>>> enabled
>>>>>> for global SRLG protection, IGP pulls the SRLGs and advertise them in
>>>>>> the Extended Prefix LSA. If TE is enabled and want to use SRLGs, it
>>>>>> pulls it from the same place, form the TE Opaque LSA and asks IGP to
>>>>>> flood it.
>>>>> [JM] This reads to me like "in case both types of LSAs are used,
>>>>> values
>>>>> MUST be identical". This is very different from the loose text in your
>>>>> I-D.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the I-D, the beginning and the end of section 3.1 provide a good
>>>>>>> summary:
>>>>>>> - "One approach for advertising link attributes is to _continue_ to
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> TE Opaque LSA"
>>>>>>> - advantages: "no additional standardization requirement", "link
>>>>>>> attributes are only advertised once".
>>>>>>> I cannot agree more on these.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> have you read the "disadvantage" section as well?
>>>>> [JM] Of course not, since Shraddha already solved them in his original
>>>>> e-mail. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other words, some new use cases, not matching the original
>>>>>>> one, do
>>>>>>> not justify to allocate new code points to the same information (cf.
>>>>>>> IS-IS non-issue). In the IETF, uses cases aim at scoping protocol
>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>> they aren't made to limit protocol future uses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I;m afraid you are missing the point.
>>>>>> TE Opaquer LSA are defined as LSAs that advertise TE topology that is
>>>>>> disjoint from the IGP topology (RFC3630). We can NOT make the link
>>>>>> part
>>>>>> of the TE topology, just because we want to advertise SRLG or some
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> attribute that is used by IGP for LFA - that would break the RFC3630.
>>>>> [JM] Indeed, I am missing the point where a link state protocol is
>>>>> forbidden to access the link parameters it is distributing in its link
>>>>> state advertisements. Please, point me to the section from RFC 3630 it
>>>>> "breaks".
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>> [JM] You're welcome,
>>>>>
>>>>> Julien
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julien
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OSPF mailing list
>>>>> OSPF@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
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> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme
> ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
> information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
> delete this message and its attachments.
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> been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>
> .
>


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" <ppsenak@cisco.com>, "julien.meuric@orange.com" <julien.meuric@orange.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:54:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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From nobody Fri Nov 13 18:00:27 2015
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From: Jeff Tantsura <jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com>
To: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>, "julien.meuric@orange.com" <julien.meuric@orange.com>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 02:00:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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Subject: Re: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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References: <D263D3DA.3CCB9%acee@cisco.com> <CAG4d1reTNUsFf8FVm1Vd_eGLwjeYDk_pHXUv1Z-uWR8N-SNDuw@mail.gmail.com> <D267BCE7.3D20E%acee@cisco.com> <BY1PR0501MB138117B8A743A2C4123A6FE6D51E0@BY1PR0501MB1381.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 13:00:09 -0500
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rc-+zuMthkWkqPqVF3k9K0Nt49+pW1whovuo1h_1M32Tw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
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Cc: OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>, OSPF ADs <ospf-ads@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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Hi Shraddha & Acee,

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
wrote:

> Hi Acee/Alia,
>
>
>
> Pls see inline..
>
>
>
> *From:* Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:11 AM
> *To:* Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>=
;
> OSPF ADs <ospf-ads@tools.ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
>
>
>
> Hi Alia, Shraddha,
>
>
>
> *From: *Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, November 8, 2015 at 1:59 AM
> *To: *Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.com>
> *Cc: *Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, OSPF WG List <ospf@ietf.org>=
,
> OSPF ADs <ospf-ads@tools.ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
>
>
>
> Hi Acee,
>
>
>
> Thanks very much for reading through and pulling out the relevant
> questions.
>
> I'd like to see this conversation resolve quickly.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote=
:
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> I=E2=80=99ve read through this discussion and I=E2=80=99m wondering why w=
e just can=E2=80=99t
> remove this normative text with respect to the interpretation of OSPF Nod=
e
> Admin tags?
>
>    1. Since the tags are advertised by a single node, why is do they have
> to be unordered? It seems there should be a reason for this even if this
> semantic is retained.
>
>
>
> I can understand this restriction in terms of implementation complexity &
>
> assumptions.  A router that receives the tag list might want to store the=
m
> in
>
> numerical order or such for easier searching.  If the tag order matters,
> there
>
> can be rather different requirements in terms of how the listener uses th=
e
>
> information.
>
>
>
> Perhaps the answer is that we don=E2=80=99t see a use case for maintainin=
g tag
> order given that they may come from multiple sources it adds a lot of
> complexity to try and maintain order. Note that the order independence is
> also in RFC 5130 (IS-IS prefix admin tags) - see section 4.
>
>
>
> <Shraddha> The restriction of keeping the tag set unordered ensures that
> the vendor policy implementations will use node tags as a set and not as =
an
> ordered list.
>
>                        Since there are no standards defined for policy
> module, its hard for the operators  to guess how the vendor policy
> implementations behave.
>
>                        I think the explicit mention of the tag ordering
> ensures there is no ambiguity in interpreting the tags.
>

 Ok - this makes sense to me.  Let's keep that restriction.


>
>
>    2. Why can=E2=80=99t they be advertised in multiple flooding scopes? T=
here
> could be one set of tags applicable at the area scope and another
> applicable at the AS wide scope.
>
>
>
> I agree that I don't see implementation complexity logic driving this.
> Perhaps
>
> it allows for storing tags per device in a flat structure instead of
> requiring that
>
> they are stored per area?
>
>
>
> I wouldn=E2=80=99t think so.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regardless, this feels like it has more impact on operational complexity =
of
>
> having to define the same meaning for different tags for different areas.
>
>
>
> This restriction of a single flooding scope wouldn=E2=80=99t preclude thi=
s.
>
> <Shraddha> Tags are independent characteristics of a node. It=E2=80=99s p=
erfectly
> valid to advertise same tag in different areas so operator need not
>
>                        Define different tags having same meaning for
> different areas.
>
>                        Since tags are independent characteristics it is
> well defined whether that characteristic need to be seen by AS wide nodes
>
>                        Or area wide nodes.
>

This sounds like an assumption on the meaning for tags that they won't need
to be sent in different
scopes.  I'm not hearing a strong reason to force this assumption.  Let's
relax it in the draft.

If the WG is ok with this resolution, could we get an updated draft this
week so I can approve the draft?

Thanks,
Alia



> Thanks,
>
> Acee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Alia
>
>
>
> In essence, since the tags are purely opaque, it seems you could simply
> remove the last 2-3 paragraphs of section 3.2.1 and the last paragraph of
> section 3.2.2 as these seem to be rather arbitrary restrictions.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
> _______________________________________________
> OSPF mailing list
> OSPF@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
>
>
>
>

--001a11c1f51214bbf30524ac2eae
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Shraddha &amp; Acee,<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Shraddha Hegde <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank=
">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Acee/Alia,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Pls see inline..<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">acee@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 11, 2015 2:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;; OSPF WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:ospf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ospf@ietf.org</a>&gt;; OSPF ADs &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ospf-ads@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ospf-ads@tools.ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OSPF] Alvaro&#39;s DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags<u></u><u=
></u></span></span></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hi Alia, Shraddha,=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black">Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, November 8, 2015 at 1:59 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Acee Lindem &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">acee@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;, OSPF WG List &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:ospf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ospf@ietf.org</a>&gt;, OSPF ADs &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ospf-ads@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ospf-ads@tools.ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [OSPF] Alvaro&#39;s DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #b5c4df 4.5pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hi Acee,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thanks very much for reading through an=
d pulling out the relevant questions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I&#39;d like to see this conversation r=
esolve quickly.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Acee Li=
ndem (acee) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">acee@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hi Shraddha,<br>
<br>
I=E2=80=99ve read through this discussion and I=E2=80=99m wondering why we =
just can=E2=80=99t<br>
remove this normative text with respect to the interpretation of OSPF Node<=
br>
Admin tags?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Since the tags are advertised by a single node, why is do t=
hey have<br>
to be unordered? It seems there should be a reason for this even if this<br=
>
semantic is retained.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I can understand this restriction in te=
rms of implementation complexity &amp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">assumptions.=C2=A0 A router that receiv=
es the tag list might want to store them in<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">numerical order or such for easier sear=
ching.=C2=A0 If the tag order matters, there<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">can be rather different requirements in=
 terms of how the listener uses the<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">information.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Perhaps the answer is that we don=E2=80=
=99t see a use case for maintaining tag order given that they may come from=
 multiple sources it adds a lot of complexity to try and
 maintain order. Note that the order independence is also in RFC 5130 (IS-I=
S prefix admin tags) - see section 4.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">&lt;Shraddha&gt; The restricti=
on of keeping the tag set unordered ensures that the vendor policy implemen=
tations will use node tags as a set and not as an ordered list.<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Since there are no standards defined for policy modul=
e, its hard for the operators =C2=A0to guess how the vendor policy implemen=
tations behave.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think the explicit mention of the tag ordering ensu=
res there is no ambiguity in interpreting the tags.</span></p></div></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0Ok - this makes sense to me.=C2=
=A0 Let&#39;s keep that restriction.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><span cla=
ss=3D""><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #b5c4df 4.5pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Why can=E2=80=99t they =
be advertised in multiple flooding scopes? There<br>
could be one set of tags applicable at the area scope and another<br>
applicable at the AS wide scope.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I agree that I don&#39;t see implementa=
tion complexity logic driving this.=C2=A0 Perhaps<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">it allows for storing tags per device i=
n a flat structure instead of requiring that<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">they are stored per area?=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I wouldn=E2=80=99t think so.=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #b5c4df 4.5pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Regardless, this feels like it has more=
 impact on operational complexity of<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">having to define the same meaning for d=
ifferent tags for different areas.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">This restriction of a single flooding s=
cope wouldn=E2=80=99t preclude this.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">&lt;Shraddha&gt; Tags are inde=
pendent characteristics of a node. It=E2=80=99s perfectly valid to advertis=
e same tag in different areas so operator need not<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Define different tags having same meaning for differe=
nt areas.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Since tags are independent characteristics it is well=
 defined whether that characteristic need to be seen by AS wide nodes<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or area wide nodes.</span></p></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>This sounds like an assumption on the meaning for tag=
s that they won&#39;t need to be sent in different</div><div>scopes.=C2=A0 =
I&#39;m not hearing a strong reason to force this assumption.=C2=A0 Let&#39=
;s relax it in the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>If the WG is ok with thi=
s resolution, could we get an updated draft this week so I can approve the =
draft?</div><div><span style=3D"color:black;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
font-size:10.5pt"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:black;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10.5pt">Thanks,</span></div><div><span sty=
le=3D"color:black;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10.5pt">Alia=C2=
=A0</span></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><span class=3D"=
"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Acee=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #b5c4df 4.5pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Alia<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">In essence, since the tags are purely o=
paque, it seems you could simply<br>
remove the last 2-3 paragraphs of section 3.2.1 and the last paragraph of<b=
r>
section 3.2.2 as these seem to be rather arbitrary restrictions.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Acee<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
OSPF mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:OSPF@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">OSPF@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11c1f51214bbf30524ac2eae--


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 18:42:49 +0000
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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [OSPF] Alvaro's DISCUSS on OSPF Admin Tags
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From nobody Wed Nov 18 09:06:13 2015
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From: "Alvaro Retana" <aretana@cisco.com>
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Subject: [OSPF] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-isis-sbfd-discriminator-02: (with DISCUSS)
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Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-isis-sbfd-discriminator-02: Discuss

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-isis-sbfd-discriminator/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It has been pointed out during the processing of this document (and other
similar ones, draft-ietf-ospf-sbfd-discriminator, for example) that the
functionality provided is only the advertisement of S-BFD discriminators,
but not a mechanism to map these discriminators to specific applications
or use-cases in the nodes.  That mapping has been declared out of scope.

However, the Base S-BFD draft (draft-ietf-bfd-seamless-base) assumes that
the advertisers of the multiple discriminators will in fact provide the
ability for the mapping.  Specifically, the base S-BFD document reads in
Section 3. (Seamless BFD Overview):

   An S-BFD module on each network node allocates one or more S-BFD
   discriminators for local entities, and creates a reflector BFD
   session.  Allocated S-BFD discriminators may be advertised by
   applications (e.g., OSPF/IS-IS).  Required result is that
   applications, on other network nodes, possess the knowledge of the
   mapping from remote entities to S-BFD discriminators.

This text reads to me that S-BFD is expecting the mapping to be somehow
provided by the "applications (e.g., OSPF/IS-IS)".  There's no other
explicit discussion about the mapping in that document.

I'm putting a DISCUSS on this document to hold its processing while the
requirements from the S-BFD point of view are clarified.  The answer to
that question should be a discussion in the BFD WG (cc'd in this
message), in coordination with the providers of the advertisements (so
far the isis, ospf and l2tpext WGs have active drafts in this area).

One possible outcome of this required discussion is clearly that the
mapping is in fact outside the scope of advertising protocols (such as
IS-IS).  Other possible outcomes may require this document to be
modified.





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Subject: [OSPF] RFC 7684 on OSPFv2 Prefix/Link Attribute Advertisement
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 7684

        Title:      OSPFv2 Prefix/Link Attribute Advertisement 
        Author:     P. Psenak, H. Gredler,
                    R. Shakir, W. Henderickx,
                    J. Tantsura, A. Lindem
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       November 2015
        Mailbox:    ppsenak@cisco.com, 
                    hannes@gredler.at, 
                    rjs@rob.sh,
                    wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com, 
                    jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com,
                    acee@cisco.com
        Pages:      15
        Characters: 33236
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ospf-prefix-link-attr-13.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7684

        DOI:        http://dx.doi.org/10.17487/RFC7684

OSPFv2 requires functional extension beyond what can readily be done
with the fixed-format Link State Advertisements (LSAs) as described
in RFC 2328.  This document defines OSPFv2 Opaque LSAs based on
Type-Length-Value (TLV) tuples that can be used to associate additional
attributes with prefixes or links.  Depending on the application,
these prefixes and links may or may not be advertised in the fixed-format
LSAs.  The OSPFv2 Opaque LSAs are optional and fully backward
compatible.

This document is a product of the Open Shortest Path First IGP Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Official
Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the 
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