From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:31:51 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18533 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19a3nS-0007Nf-1I; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:31:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19a3nF-0007My-IE for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:30:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18505 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19a3nC-0002c9-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:30:46 -0400 Received: from [202.108.44.220] (helo=mta220.163.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19a3nB-0002by-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:30:45 -0400 Received: by mta220.163.com (Postfix, from userid 60001) id 316D31D0A6D20; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:29:58 +0800 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F0B7016.000012.02139@bj220.163.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:29:58 +0800 (CST) From: "̤ѩÓкÛ" To: patrick@kirks.net Cc: p2prg@ietf.org X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: [211.91.220.2] X-Mailer: Coremail2.0 Copyright Tebie Ltd., 2001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id VAA18506 Subject: [P2Prg] =?gb2312?B?UmU6IFJlOiBbUDJQcmddIGNhbiBQMlAgc3lzdGVtIHRydXN0ZWQgPw==?= Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think trust is just only one of the key problem of trusted p2p computin= g. We also need secure routing=A1=A2management=A1=A2indentification=A1=A2acc= ess control ... But i found that there were only case-by-case solutions. = Just like trust web by reputation,we always can find one way to cheat the= system. Maybe we need to build a solid security foundation for p2p appli= cation for it to walk into commercial application. Is there anyone else d= edicated to work on p2p security framework?=20 > There are secure p2p systems. >=20 > If you are paranoid, use a web of trust. >=20 > Let us assume A has access to a secure network. > B wants access to A's content/contacts but only knows C. > C admits B to the network where his username is C.B > In other words it s a web of trust. > If B breaks the trust, he hurts C's reputation and those of everyone C=20 > has introduced. >=20 > I'm looking at a betting system that relies on people not to welch=20 > (cancel the credit card paymets for lost bets) and this web of trust is= =20 > the model I'm most hopeful for. But given that everyone hates to lose = a=20 > bet, I'm not sure if even that will work. But then I'm in the paranoid= =20 > camp :-( >=20 > Check out http://www.gnupg.org/ for another approach. >=20 > nchrist wrote: >=20 > > Any mature applicaton must solve security problem.Can we build a t= rusted P2P system.That is to build a trusted distrubuted system with untr= usted nodes. > > If we can,then what are the basic problems we must first solve? Will = there exist security infrastructure for P2P systme? > >=20 best regards=20 nchrist =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =C5=CC=D6=D0=B3=AC=BC=B6=D3=AF=C0=FB=BE=A1=D4=DA=D5=C6=CE=D5 =CF=ED=CA=DC= =C0=AD=C9=FD=B5=C4=BF=EC=B8=D0 http://list.163.com/mlist/pzjg/pzjg= .htm =B0=D9=B7=D6=B0=D9=C5=AE=D3=D1 - =B4=BA=BC=BE=D1=A1=C3=C0=BB=EE=B6=AF! = http://love.163.com =B8=F6=C8=CB=BF=D5=BC=E4=C3=E2=B7=D1=CA=D4=D3=C3 = http://www.nease.net _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:31:53 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18549 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19a3np-0007PZ-Gf for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:31:26 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h691VPMO028488 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:31:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19a3np-0007PP-D4 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:31:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18530 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19a3nm-0002cV-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:31:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19a3nm-0002cS-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:31:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19a3nS-0007Nf-1I; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:31:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19a3nF-0007My-IE for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:30:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18505 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19a3nC-0002c9-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:30:46 -0400 Received: from [202.108.44.220] (helo=mta220.163.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19a3nB-0002by-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:30:45 -0400 Received: by mta220.163.com (Postfix, from userid 60001) id 316D31D0A6D20; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:29:58 +0800 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F0B7016.000012.02139@bj220.163.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:29:58 +0800 (CST) From: "̤ѩÓкÛ" To: patrick@kirks.net Cc: p2prg@ietf.org X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: [211.91.220.2] X-Mailer: Coremail2.0 Copyright Tebie Ltd., 2001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id VAA18506 Subject: [P2Prg] =?gb2312?B?UmU6IFJlOiBbUDJQcmddIGNhbiBQMlAgc3lzdGVtIHRydXN0ZWQgPw==?= Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think trust is just only one of the key problem of trusted p2p computin= g. We also need secure routing=A1=A2management=A1=A2indentification=A1=A2acc= ess control ... But i found that there were only case-by-case solutions. = Just like trust web by reputation,we always can find one way to cheat the= system. Maybe we need to build a solid security foundation for p2p appli= cation for it to walk into commercial application. Is there anyone else d= edicated to work on p2p security framework?=20 > There are secure p2p systems. >=20 > If you are paranoid, use a web of trust. >=20 > Let us assume A has access to a secure network. > B wants access to A's content/contacts but only knows C. > C admits B to the network where his username is C.B > In other words it s a web of trust. > If B breaks the trust, he hurts C's reputation and those of everyone C=20 > has introduced. >=20 > I'm looking at a betting system that relies on people not to welch=20 > (cancel the credit card paymets for lost bets) and this web of trust is= =20 > the model I'm most hopeful for. But given that everyone hates to lose = a=20 > bet, I'm not sure if even that will work. But then I'm in the paranoid= =20 > camp :-( >=20 > Check out http://www.gnupg.org/ for another approach. >=20 > nchrist wrote: >=20 > > Any mature applicaton must solve security problem.Can we build a t= rusted P2P system.That is to build a trusted distrubuted system with untr= usted nodes. > > If we can,then what are the basic problems we must first solve? Will = there exist security infrastructure for P2P systme? > >=20 best regards=20 nchrist =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =C5=CC=D6=D0=B3=AC=BC=B6=D3=AF=C0=FB=BE=A1=D4=DA=D5=C6=CE=D5 =CF=ED=CA=DC= =C0=AD=C9=FD=B5=C4=BF=EC=B8=D0 http://list.163.com/mlist/pzjg/pzjg= .htm =B0=D9=B7=D6=B0=D9=C5=AE=D3=D1 - =B4=BA=BC=BE=D1=A1=C3=C0=BB=EE=B6=AF! = http://love.163.com =B8=F6=C8=CB=BF=D5=BC=E4=C3=E2=B7=D1=CA=D4=D3=C3 = http://www.nease.net _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 11:14:02 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04797 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aGd0-0000xv-Gq; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:13:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aDvr-0002Jp-4l for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:20:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA28671 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aDvp-0006Iz-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:20:21 -0400 Received: from mxsmta03.inithost.com ([209.235.30.105] helo=mxsmta03.dellhost.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aDvp-0006Iv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:20:21 -0400 Received: from garbagedump.com ([24.128.102.183]) by mxsmta03.dellhost.com (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20030709122214.CAJI28645.mxsmta03.dellhost.com@garbagedump.com> for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:22:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0C088A.5080204@garbagedump.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:20:26 -0400 From: "C. Wegrzyn" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4a; MultiZilla v1.4.0.4A) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Re: Re: [P2Prg] can P2P system trusted ? References: <3F0B7016.000012.02139@bj220.163.com> In-Reply-To: <3F0B7016.000012.02139@bj220.163.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 9 11:14:09 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04881 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aGdX-0001XJ-Sz for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:13:41 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h69FDdem005899 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:13:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aGdX-0001X4-O0 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:13:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04327 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aGdW-0007Jm-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:13:39 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aGdW-0007JA-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:13:38 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aGd0-0000xv-Gq; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:13:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aDvr-0002Jp-4l for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:20:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA28671 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aDvp-0006Iz-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:20:21 -0400 Received: from mxsmta03.inithost.com ([209.235.30.105] helo=mxsmta03.dellhost.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aDvp-0006Iv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:20:21 -0400 Received: from garbagedump.com ([24.128.102.183]) by mxsmta03.dellhost.com (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20030709122214.CAJI28645.mxsmta03.dellhost.com@garbagedump.com> for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:22:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0C088A.5080204@garbagedump.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:20:26 -0400 From: "C. Wegrzyn" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4a; MultiZilla v1.4.0.4A) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Re: Re: [P2Prg] can P2P system trusted ? References: <3F0B7016.000012.02139@bj220.163.com> In-Reply-To: <3F0B7016.000012.02139@bj220.163.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 19:22:38 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28686 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aOG9-0008Tz-Jn; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:22:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aOFT-0008Tb-MM for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:21:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28629 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aOFR-00059P-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:21:17 -0400 Received: from smtp2.att.ne.jp ([165.76.15.138]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aOFQ-00059M-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:21:17 -0400 Received: from neurogrid.com (h219-110-057-200.catv01.itscom.jp [219.110.57.200]) by smtp2.att.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F80225773; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:21:14 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3F0CA36C.9020900@neurogrid.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:21:16 +0900 From: Sam Joseph Reply-To: sam@neurogrid.com Organization: NeuroGrid http://www.neurogrid.net/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; ja-JP; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mauricio Arango , osokin@osokin.com, p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) References: <3F0A018B.50803B95@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Serguei and Mauricio, Mauricio Arango wrote: >> While making DHTs suitable for fuzzy searches is >>definitely a noble endeavor, personally I don't really >>have high hopes for this approach. What makes me much >>more interested is this: >> >> 1. Are there any non-DHT logarithmically scalable >> search algorithms that would be suitable for >> fuzzy, imprecise searches? >> I think getting good scalability from non-DHT systems is hard, but there are a number of systems trying to achieve this either by combining DHTs and fuzzy searches, such as PSearch, HyperCup or other approaches like NeuroGrid and Alpine to name a few. A recently paper published summarises about 15 different systems with similar goals. Due to an oversight the abstract was not properly proof-read by a native English speaker - so don't let that put you off, the rest of the paper was properly proof-read. You can access the paper "Decentralized Meta-Data Strategies: Effective Peer-to-Peer Search." here: http://www.neurogrid.net/php/publications.php The full bibtext reference includes a corrected abstract: @article{Joseph03a, author = {Sam Joseph and Takashige Hoshiai}, title = {Decentralized Meta-Data Strategies: Effective Peer-to-Peer Search}, journal = {IEICE Transactions on Communications}, volume = {E86-B}, number = {6}, pages={1740-1753,} year = {2003}, abstract = {The release of the Gnutella file sharing system in Mach 2000 stirred worldwide interest in the Peer-to-Peer (P2P) computing model. Put simply, the P2P model does not depend on a centralised management broker, like those that play an important role in many internet business models. The P2P approach enables peers to discover other peers with desired content or similar interests, without having to go through an intermediary server. It seems clear that the wealth of content made available by peer-to-peer systems such as Gnutella and Freenet have spurred many authors into considering how meta-data might be used to support more effective search in such a distributed environment. This paper reviews a number of these systems and their decentralized meta-data strategies while attempting to identify some common themes.}, URL={http://search.ieice.org/2003/pdf/e86-b_6_1740.pdf} } CHEERS> SAM _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 9 19:22:39 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28701 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aOGK-0008V4-Dd for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:22:12 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h69NMCjf032668 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:22:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aOGK-0008Up-9i for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:22:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28654 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aOGI-00059g-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:22:10 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aOGI-00059d-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:22:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aOG9-0008Tz-Jn; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:22:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aOFT-0008Tb-MM for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:21:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28629 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aOFR-00059P-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:21:17 -0400 Received: from smtp2.att.ne.jp ([165.76.15.138]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aOFQ-00059M-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:21:17 -0400 Received: from neurogrid.com (h219-110-057-200.catv01.itscom.jp [219.110.57.200]) by smtp2.att.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F80225773; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:21:14 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3F0CA36C.9020900@neurogrid.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:21:16 +0900 From: Sam Joseph Reply-To: sam@neurogrid.com Organization: NeuroGrid http://www.neurogrid.net/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; ja-JP; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mauricio Arango , osokin@osokin.com, p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) References: <3F0A018B.50803B95@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Serguei and Mauricio, Mauricio Arango wrote: >> While making DHTs suitable for fuzzy searches is >>definitely a noble endeavor, personally I don't really >>have high hopes for this approach. What makes me much >>more interested is this: >> >> 1. Are there any non-DHT logarithmically scalable >> search algorithms that would be suitable for >> fuzzy, imprecise searches? >> I think getting good scalability from non-DHT systems is hard, but there are a number of systems trying to achieve this either by combining DHTs and fuzzy searches, such as PSearch, HyperCup or other approaches like NeuroGrid and Alpine to name a few. A recently paper published summarises about 15 different systems with similar goals. Due to an oversight the abstract was not properly proof-read by a native English speaker - so don't let that put you off, the rest of the paper was properly proof-read. You can access the paper "Decentralized Meta-Data Strategies: Effective Peer-to-Peer Search." here: http://www.neurogrid.net/php/publications.php The full bibtext reference includes a corrected abstract: @article{Joseph03a, author = {Sam Joseph and Takashige Hoshiai}, title = {Decentralized Meta-Data Strategies: Effective Peer-to-Peer Search}, journal = {IEICE Transactions on Communications}, volume = {E86-B}, number = {6}, pages={1740-1753,} year = {2003}, abstract = {The release of the Gnutella file sharing system in Mach 2000 stirred worldwide interest in the Peer-to-Peer (P2P) computing model. Put simply, the P2P model does not depend on a centralised management broker, like those that play an important role in many internet business models. The P2P approach enables peers to discover other peers with desired content or similar interests, without having to go through an intermediary server. It seems clear that the wealth of content made available by peer-to-peer systems such as Gnutella and Freenet have spurred many authors into considering how meta-data might be used to support more effective search in such a distributed environment. This paper reviews a number of these systems and their decentralized meta-data strategies while attempting to identify some common themes.}, URL={http://search.ieice.org/2003/pdf/e86-b_6_1740.pdf} } CHEERS> SAM _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 22:46:36 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA02907 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aRRZ-0004Vm-QK; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:46:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aRRL-0004VG-5T for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:45:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA02885 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: nchrist@163.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aRRH-0006IW-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:45:43 -0400 Received: from [202.108.44.230] (helo=mta230.163.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aRRF-0006IT-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:45:42 -0400 Received: by mta230.163.com (Postfix, from userid 60001) id 88C831D091DE2; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:45:06 +0800 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F0CD332.00003B.20905@bj230.163.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:45:06 +0800 (CST) To: mrogers@cs.ucl.ac.uk Cc: p2prg@ietf.org X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: [211.91.220.2] X-Mailer: Coremail2.0 Copyright Tebie Ltd., 2001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id WAA02886 Subject: [P2Prg] =?gb2312?B?UmU6IFJlOiBbUDJQcmddIGNhbiBQMlAgc3lzdGVtIHRydXN0ZWQgPw==?= Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=A3=AC I'm also working on secure P2P computing for my phD. My idea is to de= fine some basic security problem for p2p,then try to solve them.Then build a s= ecure=20 p2p system with these security blocks.I can only define a big architectur= e but can solve at most one or two of the basic problems by myself.I am very g= lad to share ideas and discuss this subject with you . And there is trade= off between performance and security for all application. =20 >=20 > I'm looking at secure decentralized networks for my PhD, especially usi= ng=20 > the web of trust to define the topology of p2p networks. However I'm no= t=20 > sure if that's a good place to start for most (non-paranoid) p2p networ= ks,=20 > because in most cases it's more efficient to connect directly to untrus= ted=20 > nodes than to route every message through a chain of intermediaries. If= you=20 > have any thoughts or references on the subject I'd be interested to hea= r=20 > them. >=20 > Cheers, > Michael >=20 > On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:29:58AM +0800, wrote: > > I think trust is just only one of the key problem of trusted p2p comp= uting. > > We also need secure routing/management/indentification/access control= ... > > But i found that there were only case-by-case solutions. Just like tr= ust > > web by reputation,we always can find one way to cheat the system. May= be we > > need to build a solid security foundation for p2p application for it = to > > walk into commercial application. Is there anyone else dedicated to w= ork on > > p2p security framework?=20 > >=20 Haitao Chen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =C5=CC=D6=D0=B3=AC=BC=B6=D3=AF=C0=FB=BE=A1=D4=DA=D5=C6=CE=D5 =CF=ED=CA=DC= =C0=AD=C9=FD=B5=C4=BF=EC=B8=D0 http://list.163.com/mlist/pzjg/pzjg= .htm =B0=D9=B7=D6=B0=D9=C5=AE=D3=D1 - =B4=BA=BC=BE=D1=A1=C3=C0=BB=EE=B6=AF! = http://love.163.com =B8=F6=C8=CB=BF=D5=BC=E4=C3=E2=B7=D1=CA=D4=D3=C3 = http://www.nease.net _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 9 22:46:43 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA02923 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aRRj-0004Wl-DC for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:46:17 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6A2kBSx017403 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:46:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aRRj-0004Wc-1w for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:46:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA02899 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aRRf-0006Iv-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:46:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aRRf-0006Is-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:46:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aRRZ-0004Vm-QK; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:46:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aRRL-0004VG-5T for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:45:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA02885 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: nchrist@163.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aRRH-0006IW-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:45:43 -0400 Received: from [202.108.44.230] (helo=mta230.163.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aRRF-0006IT-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:45:42 -0400 Received: by mta230.163.com (Postfix, from userid 60001) id 88C831D091DE2; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:45:06 +0800 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F0CD332.00003B.20905@bj230.163.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:45:06 +0800 (CST) To: mrogers@cs.ucl.ac.uk Cc: p2prg@ietf.org X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: [211.91.220.2] X-Mailer: Coremail2.0 Copyright Tebie Ltd., 2001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id WAA02886 Subject: [P2Prg] =?gb2312?B?UmU6IFJlOiBbUDJQcmddIGNhbiBQMlAgc3lzdGVtIHRydXN0ZWQgPw==?= Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=A3=AC I'm also working on secure P2P computing for my phD. My idea is to de= fine some basic security problem for p2p,then try to solve them.Then build a s= ecure=20 p2p system with these security blocks.I can only define a big architectur= e but can solve at most one or two of the basic problems by myself.I am very g= lad to share ideas and discuss this subject with you . And there is trade= off between performance and security for all application. =20 >=20 > I'm looking at secure decentralized networks for my PhD, especially usi= ng=20 > the web of trust to define the topology of p2p networks. However I'm no= t=20 > sure if that's a good place to start for most (non-paranoid) p2p networ= ks,=20 > because in most cases it's more efficient to connect directly to untrus= ted=20 > nodes than to route every message through a chain of intermediaries. If= you=20 > have any thoughts or references on the subject I'd be interested to hea= r=20 > them. >=20 > Cheers, > Michael >=20 > On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:29:58AM +0800, wrote: > > I think trust is just only one of the key problem of trusted p2p comp= uting. > > We also need secure routing/management/indentification/access control= ... > > But i found that there were only case-by-case solutions. Just like tr= ust > > web by reputation,we always can find one way to cheat the system. May= be we > > need to build a solid security foundation for p2p application for it = to > > walk into commercial application. Is there anyone else dedicated to w= ork on > > p2p security framework?=20 > >=20 Haitao Chen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =C5=CC=D6=D0=B3=AC=BC=B6=D3=AF=C0=FB=BE=A1=D4=DA=D5=C6=CE=D5 =CF=ED=CA=DC= =C0=AD=C9=FD=B5=C4=BF=EC=B8=D0 http://list.163.com/mlist/pzjg/pzjg= .htm =B0=D9=B7=D6=B0=D9=C5=AE=D3=D1 - =B4=BA=BC=BE=D1=A1=C3=C0=BB=EE=B6=AF! = http://love.163.com =B8=F6=C8=CB=BF=D5=BC=E4=C3=E2=B7=D1=CA=D4=D3=C3 = http://www.nease.net _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 04:35:34 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22500 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aWtJ-0002Zq-AD; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aWsO-0002VB-0y for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:34:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22432 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aWsJ-0000Z0-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:33:59 -0400 Received: from mercury.ex.ac.uk ([144.173.6.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aWsI-0000Yv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:33:59 -0400 Received: from [144.173.6.20] (helo=cronus.ex.ac.uk) by mercury.ex.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19aWro-00gBEk-Ic; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:33:28 +0100 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:33:27 +0100 From: Adam Back To: p2p-hackers@zgp.org Cc: p2prg@ietf.org, Adam Back Message-ID: <20030710093327.A13197394@exeter.ac.uk> References: <20030704054745.B13145352@exeter.ac.uk> <014d01c341fa$c0a58bd0$660a000a@golden> <20030704105003.A13087560@exeter.ac.uk> <00b601c3426a$9ff6e3f0$660a000a@golden> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: <00b601c3426a$9ff6e3f0$660a000a@golden>; from gojomo@bitzi.com on Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 01:26:59PM -0700 Subject: [P2Prg] p2p network assumptions for download auth problem (Re: [p2p-hackers] THEX efficiency for authenticated p2p dload. and alternate approach) Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 01:26:59PM -0700, Gordon Mohr wrote: > But the best you can do, in a network where many peers are malicious, > is to identify them as soon as possible, and then ignore them, > preferring those who are non-malicious. Actually I think this assumption may not be necessarily true in the general case. This goes back to what assumptions about what the p2p network one makes. The current kazaa jamming is not by peers, but by publishers. The publishers try to make their content look otherwise attractive (by giving rave review self-proclaimed meta data) to encourage others to download, and then magnify the effect, as people tend to download from fast sources, which means many sources; and for it to reach many sources it has to compete with good content which people will tend to delete less quickly. Of course they may also be running a number of peers holding their jammed data to firstly publish, but secondly to inflate it's apparent popularity. My interest is in server and user privacy, so I tend to think in terms of the p2p network features that enable them. So to get back to the assumptions, if we take the full general case, which is I think has aspects of gnunet (UDP transport option, small packets, forwarded so you don't necessarily know which node is serving, and add swarmcasting to that mix, and server deniability wrt to what it is serving, then ignoring nodes that serve bad content might not even be optimal as firstly you don't know which node served it, and serial tree downloads from a single node may not be available due to fragmentation and server deniability. So I'd say in the general case I think you need the parallel but authenticatable per packet approach I gave. Freenet also does the chunking and redirection with cacheing for server privacy, user privacy and dynamic load balancing. In specific simpler cases where you don't care about tree efficienciy, server deniability isn't there, forwarding and privacy isn't there then practically you can do just not bother for simplicity (as perhaps bittorrent may be doing). Adam _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 10 04:35:37 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22515 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aWtS-0002b0-B1 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:11 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6A8ZAcL009977 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aWtS-0002aq-2i for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22479 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aWtP-0000Zj-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aWtO-0000Zg-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aWtJ-0002Zq-AD; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:35:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aWsO-0002VB-0y for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:34:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22432 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aWsJ-0000Z0-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:33:59 -0400 Received: from mercury.ex.ac.uk ([144.173.6.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aWsI-0000Yv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:33:59 -0400 Received: from [144.173.6.20] (helo=cronus.ex.ac.uk) by mercury.ex.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19aWro-00gBEk-Ic; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:33:28 +0100 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:33:27 +0100 From: Adam Back To: p2p-hackers@zgp.org Cc: p2prg@ietf.org, Adam Back Message-ID: <20030710093327.A13197394@exeter.ac.uk> References: <20030704054745.B13145352@exeter.ac.uk> <014d01c341fa$c0a58bd0$660a000a@golden> <20030704105003.A13087560@exeter.ac.uk> <00b601c3426a$9ff6e3f0$660a000a@golden> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: <00b601c3426a$9ff6e3f0$660a000a@golden>; from gojomo@bitzi.com on Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 01:26:59PM -0700 Subject: [P2Prg] p2p network assumptions for download auth problem (Re: [p2p-hackers] THEX efficiency for authenticated p2p dload. and alternate approach) Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 01:26:59PM -0700, Gordon Mohr wrote: > But the best you can do, in a network where many peers are malicious, > is to identify them as soon as possible, and then ignore them, > preferring those who are non-malicious. Actually I think this assumption may not be necessarily true in the general case. This goes back to what assumptions about what the p2p network one makes. The current kazaa jamming is not by peers, but by publishers. The publishers try to make their content look otherwise attractive (by giving rave review self-proclaimed meta data) to encourage others to download, and then magnify the effect, as people tend to download from fast sources, which means many sources; and for it to reach many sources it has to compete with good content which people will tend to delete less quickly. Of course they may also be running a number of peers holding their jammed data to firstly publish, but secondly to inflate it's apparent popularity. My interest is in server and user privacy, so I tend to think in terms of the p2p network features that enable them. So to get back to the assumptions, if we take the full general case, which is I think has aspects of gnunet (UDP transport option, small packets, forwarded so you don't necessarily know which node is serving, and add swarmcasting to that mix, and server deniability wrt to what it is serving, then ignoring nodes that serve bad content might not even be optimal as firstly you don't know which node served it, and serial tree downloads from a single node may not be available due to fragmentation and server deniability. So I'd say in the general case I think you need the parallel but authenticatable per packet approach I gave. Freenet also does the chunking and redirection with cacheing for server privacy, user privacy and dynamic load balancing. In specific simpler cases where you don't care about tree efficienciy, server deniability isn't there, forwarding and privacy isn't there then practically you can do just not bother for simplicity (as perhaps bittorrent may be doing). Adam _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 07:33:37 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27185 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aZfY-0006cj-KD; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aZfF-0006cJ-SQ for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:32:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27161 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aZfE-0001rK-00 for p2prg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:32:41 -0400 Received: from beamer.mchh.siemens.de ([194.138.158.163]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aZfD-0001rG-00 for p2prg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:32:40 -0400 Received: from moody.mchh.siemens.de ([139.21.205.85]) by beamer.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17011 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:32:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mchh247e.demchh201e.icn.siemens.de (mchh247e.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.200.57]) by moody.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA04148 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:32:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mchh247e.mchh.siemens.de with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:31:56 +0200 Message-ID: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDD4@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> From: Andersen Frank-Uwe To: "'p2prg@irtf.org'" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:31:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [P2Prg] P2Prg intro / considerations for mobile peers Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi, I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). This is why we are most interested in modified search algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed storage systems for mobile peers. Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. Regards, Frank-Uwe Andersen _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 10 07:33:38 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27200 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aZfi-0006eY-Ra for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:11 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6ABXABB025568 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aZfi-0006eJ-Mr for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27165 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aZfi-0001rQ-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:10 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aZfh-0001rN-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aZfY-0006cj-KD; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:33:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aZfF-0006cJ-SQ for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:32:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27161 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aZfE-0001rK-00 for p2prg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:32:41 -0400 Received: from beamer.mchh.siemens.de ([194.138.158.163]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aZfD-0001rG-00 for p2prg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:32:40 -0400 Received: from moody.mchh.siemens.de ([139.21.205.85]) by beamer.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17011 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:32:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mchh247e.demchh201e.icn.siemens.de (mchh247e.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.200.57]) by moody.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA04148 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:32:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mchh247e.mchh.siemens.de with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:31:56 +0200 Message-ID: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDD4@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> From: Andersen Frank-Uwe To: "'p2prg@irtf.org'" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:31:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [P2Prg] P2Prg intro / considerations for mobile peers Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi, I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). This is why we are most interested in modified search algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed storage systems for mobile peers. Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. Regards, Frank-Uwe Andersen _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 07:58:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28027 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aa3k-0000U2-L3; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aa2s-0000Td-SK for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27952 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aa2r-00022P-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:05 -0400 Received: from mxsmta03.inithost.com ([209.235.30.105] helo=mxsmta03.dellhost.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aa2q-00022J-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:04 -0400 Received: from garbagedump.com ([24.128.102.183]) by mxsmta03.dellhost.com (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20030710115858.QVUA28645.mxsmta03.dellhost.com@garbagedump.com>; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:58 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0D5498.4010008@garbagedump.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:12 -0400 From: "C. Wegrzyn" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4a; MultiZilla v1.4.0.4A) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nchrist@163.com CC: mrogers@cs.ucl.ac.uk, p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Re: Re: [P2Prg] can P2P system trusted ? References: <3F0CD332.00003B.20905@bj230.163.com> In-Reply-To: <3F0CD332.00003B.20905@bj230.163.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id HAA27953 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been working on secure P2P systems for over two years. For those of=20 you interested in secure P2P I've started a Yahoo group; check out=20 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/p2psecure/ . Chuck Wegrzyn nchrist@163.com wrote: >Hi=A3=AC > I'm also working on secure P2P computing for my phD. My idea is to d= efine >some basic security problem for p2p,then try to solve them.Then build a = secure=20 >p2p system with these security blocks.I can only define a big architectu= re but >can solve at most one or two of the basic problems by myself.I am very = glad to share ideas and discuss this subject with you . And there is trad= eoff between performance and security for all application. =20 > =20 > >>I'm looking at secure decentralized networks for my PhD, especially usi= ng=20 >>the web of trust to define the topology of p2p networks. However I'm no= t=20 >>sure if that's a good place to start for most (non-paranoid) p2p networ= ks,=20 >>because in most cases it's more efficient to connect directly to untrus= ted=20 >>nodes than to route every message through a chain of intermediaries. If= you=20 >>have any thoughts or references on the subject I'd be interested to hea= r=20 >>them. >> >>Cheers, >>Michael >> >>On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:29:58AM +0800, wrote: >> =20 >> >>>I think trust is just only one of the key problem of trusted p2p compu= ting. >>>We also need secure routing/management/indentification/access control = ... >>>But i found that there were only case-by-case solutions. Just like tru= st >>>web by reputation,we always can find one way to cheat the system. Mayb= e we >>>need to build a solid security foundation for p2p application for it t= o >>>walk into commercial application. Is there anyone else dedicated to wo= rk on >>>p2p security framework?=20 >>> >>> =20 >>> > Haitao Chen > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=C5=CC=D6=D0=B3=AC=BC=B6=D3=AF=C0=FB=BE=A1=D4=DA=D5=C6=CE=D5 =CF=ED=CA=DC= =C0=AD=C9=FD=B5=C4=BF=EC=B8=D0 http://list.163.com/mlist/pzjg/pzjg= .htm >=B0=D9=B7=D6=B0=D9=C5=AE=D3=D1 - =B4=BA=BC=BE=D1=A1=C3=C0=BB=EE=B6=AF! = http://love.163.com >=B8=F6=C8=CB=BF=D5=BC=E4=C3=E2=B7=D1=CA=D4=D3=C3 = http://www.nease.net > >_______________________________________________ >P2prg mailing list >P2prg@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > =20 > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 10 07:58:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28045 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aa3n-0000Vn-O9 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6ABw3uu001961 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aa3n-0000VY-J8 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28001 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aa3m-000232-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aa3l-00022z-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aa3k-0000U2-L3; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aa2s-0000Td-SK for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27952 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aa2r-00022P-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:05 -0400 Received: from mxsmta03.inithost.com ([209.235.30.105] helo=mxsmta03.dellhost.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aa2q-00022J-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:04 -0400 Received: from garbagedump.com ([24.128.102.183]) by mxsmta03.dellhost.com (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20030710115858.QVUA28645.mxsmta03.dellhost.com@garbagedump.com>; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:58:58 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0D5498.4010008@garbagedump.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:57:12 -0400 From: "C. Wegrzyn" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4a; MultiZilla v1.4.0.4A) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nchrist@163.com CC: mrogers@cs.ucl.ac.uk, p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Re: Re: [P2Prg] can P2P system trusted ? References: <3F0CD332.00003B.20905@bj230.163.com> In-Reply-To: <3F0CD332.00003B.20905@bj230.163.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id HAA27953 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been working on secure P2P systems for over two years. For those of=20 you interested in secure P2P I've started a Yahoo group; check out=20 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/p2psecure/ . Chuck Wegrzyn nchrist@163.com wrote: >Hi=A3=AC > I'm also working on secure P2P computing for my phD. My idea is to d= efine >some basic security problem for p2p,then try to solve them.Then build a = secure=20 >p2p system with these security blocks.I can only define a big architectu= re but >can solve at most one or two of the basic problems by myself.I am very = glad to share ideas and discuss this subject with you . And there is trad= eoff between performance and security for all application. =20 > =20 > >>I'm looking at secure decentralized networks for my PhD, especially usi= ng=20 >>the web of trust to define the topology of p2p networks. However I'm no= t=20 >>sure if that's a good place to start for most (non-paranoid) p2p networ= ks,=20 >>because in most cases it's more efficient to connect directly to untrus= ted=20 >>nodes than to route every message through a chain of intermediaries. If= you=20 >>have any thoughts or references on the subject I'd be interested to hea= r=20 >>them. >> >>Cheers, >>Michael >> >>On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:29:58AM +0800, wrote: >> =20 >> >>>I think trust is just only one of the key problem of trusted p2p compu= ting. >>>We also need secure routing/management/indentification/access control = ... >>>But i found that there were only case-by-case solutions. Just like tru= st >>>web by reputation,we always can find one way to cheat the system. Mayb= e we >>>need to build a solid security foundation for p2p application for it t= o >>>walk into commercial application. Is there anyone else dedicated to wo= rk on >>>p2p security framework?=20 >>> >>> =20 >>> > Haitao Chen > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=C5=CC=D6=D0=B3=AC=BC=B6=D3=AF=C0=FB=BE=A1=D4=DA=D5=C6=CE=D5 =CF=ED=CA=DC= =C0=AD=C9=FD=B5=C4=BF=EC=B8=D0 http://list.163.com/mlist/pzjg/pzjg= .htm >=B0=D9=B7=D6=B0=D9=C5=AE=D3=D1 - =B4=BA=BC=BE=D1=A1=C3=C0=BB=EE=B6=AF! = http://love.163.com >=B8=F6=C8=CB=BF=D5=BC=E4=C3=E2=B7=D1=CA=D4=D3=C3 = http://www.nease.net > >_______________________________________________ >P2prg mailing list >P2prg@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > =20 > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 08:50:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA29825 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aas5-0004YF-Ot; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aara-0004SA-8H for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:49:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA29631 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:49:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aarY-0002Ts-00 for p2prg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:49:29 -0400 Received: from nazare.cin.ufpe.br ([150.161.2.100]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aarX-0002Sa-00 for p2prg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:49:27 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by nazare.cin.ufpe.br (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) id h6ACmb652694; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:48:37 -0300 (BRT) (envelope-from cak@nazare.cin.ufpe.br) Received: from arcoverde.cin.ufpe.br (arcoverde [172.17.33.112]) by nazare.cin.ufpe.br (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6ACmWK66845; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:48:34 -0300 (BRT) (envelope-from cak@nazare.cin.ufpe.br) Received: from cak (helo=localhost) by arcoverde.cin.ufpe.br with local-esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19aY7p-0003R9-00; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:54:05 -0300 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:54:05 -0300 (BRT) From: Carlos Alberto Kamienski To: Andersen Frank-Uwe cc: "'p2prg@irtf.org'" , Djamel Sadok Subject: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS In-Reply-To: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDD4@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in mobile stations using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and would be very pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. Thank you, Carlos Kamienski > Hi, > > I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. > > One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > > This is why we are most interested in modified search algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed storage systems for mobile peers. > > Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. > > > Regards, > > Frank-Uwe Andersen > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 10 08:50:37 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA29840 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aasD-0004dE-8q for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:10 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6ACo9uc017799 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aasD-0004d0-1Z for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA29749 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aasB-0002Up-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aasA-0002Um-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aas5-0004YF-Ot; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:50:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aara-0004SA-8H for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:49:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA29631 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:49:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aarY-0002Ts-00 for p2prg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:49:29 -0400 Received: from nazare.cin.ufpe.br ([150.161.2.100]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aarX-0002Sa-00 for p2prg@irtf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:49:27 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by nazare.cin.ufpe.br (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) id h6ACmb652694; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:48:37 -0300 (BRT) (envelope-from cak@nazare.cin.ufpe.br) Received: from arcoverde.cin.ufpe.br (arcoverde [172.17.33.112]) by nazare.cin.ufpe.br (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6ACmWK66845; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:48:34 -0300 (BRT) (envelope-from cak@nazare.cin.ufpe.br) Received: from cak (helo=localhost) by arcoverde.cin.ufpe.br with local-esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19aY7p-0003R9-00; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:54:05 -0300 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:54:05 -0300 (BRT) From: Carlos Alberto Kamienski To: Andersen Frank-Uwe cc: "'p2prg@irtf.org'" , Djamel Sadok Subject: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS In-Reply-To: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDD4@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in mobile stations using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and would be very pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. Thank you, Carlos Kamienski > Hi, > > I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. > > One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > > This is why we are most interested in modified search algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed storage systems for mobile peers. > > Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. > > > Regards, > > Frank-Uwe Andersen > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 13:56:38 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14445 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19afeD-0007I8-G7; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19afdw-0007Hn-G4 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14414 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19afdu-0005gh-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:42 -0400 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.192.128] helo=cs.ucla.edu) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19afdt-0005gd-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:41 -0400 Received: from cs.ucla.edu (rdwarrior.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.192.88]) by cs.ucla.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6AHt0d2049345; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scottm@cs.ucla.edu) Message-ID: <3F0DA854.3030407@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:54:28 -0700 From: Scott Michel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam@neurogrid.com CC: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) References: <3F0A018B.50803B95@sun.com> <3F0CA36C.9020900@neurogrid.com> In-Reply-To: <3F0CA36C.9020900@neurogrid.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam Joseph wrote: > Hi Serguei and Mauricio, > > Mauricio Arango wrote: > >>> While making DHTs suitable for fuzzy searches is >>> definitely a noble endeavor, personally I don't really >>> have high hopes for this approach. What makes me much >>> more interested is this: >>> >>> 1. Are there any non-DHT logarithmically scalable >>> search algorithms that would be suitable for >>> fuzzy, imprecise searches? >>> > > I think getting good scalability from non-DHT systems is hard That's a really wild claim. The DHT systems out there today have a hierarchically decomposable name space, do routing and transparent request forwarding. You can generalize the binary identifier to any hierarchically decomposable name space, offer routing and request forwarding (doesn't have to be transparent to achieve symmetric P2P comm) and achieve the roughly the same result. DHTs closely couple the peer network's structure and request forwarding to thier respective binary identifier namespaces. I'm not sure that this close coupling is necessary (that's what I'm claiming in my Ph.D. dissertation.) Most of what I claim is that there should be a separation of the service from its underlying infrastructure to make the infrastructure reusable and extensible. However, that shouldn't prevent optimizations like such as the DHT approach. BTW, papers in the ACM HOTNETS conference proposed some interesting ways of implementing query services over DHTs. However, in my (limited) experience, the biggest drawback of a DHT is that the identifers need to be known a priori, as well as the mapping of identifiers to what is being identified. -scooter _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 10 13:56:44 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14463 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19afeT-0007Wi-Di for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:18 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6AHuHl1028928 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19afeT-0007WV-AA for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14426 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19afeR-0005gz-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:15 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19afeQ-0005gu-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19afeD-0007I8-G7; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:56:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19afdw-0007Hn-G4 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14414 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19afdu-0005gh-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:42 -0400 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.192.128] helo=cs.ucla.edu) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19afdt-0005gd-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:55:41 -0400 Received: from cs.ucla.edu (rdwarrior.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.192.88]) by cs.ucla.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6AHt0d2049345; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scottm@cs.ucla.edu) Message-ID: <3F0DA854.3030407@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:54:28 -0700 From: Scott Michel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sam@neurogrid.com CC: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) References: <3F0A018B.50803B95@sun.com> <3F0CA36C.9020900@neurogrid.com> In-Reply-To: <3F0CA36C.9020900@neurogrid.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam Joseph wrote: > Hi Serguei and Mauricio, > > Mauricio Arango wrote: > >>> While making DHTs suitable for fuzzy searches is >>> definitely a noble endeavor, personally I don't really >>> have high hopes for this approach. What makes me much >>> more interested is this: >>> >>> 1. Are there any non-DHT logarithmically scalable >>> search algorithms that would be suitable for >>> fuzzy, imprecise searches? >>> > > I think getting good scalability from non-DHT systems is hard That's a really wild claim. The DHT systems out there today have a hierarchically decomposable name space, do routing and transparent request forwarding. You can generalize the binary identifier to any hierarchically decomposable name space, offer routing and request forwarding (doesn't have to be transparent to achieve symmetric P2P comm) and achieve the roughly the same result. DHTs closely couple the peer network's structure and request forwarding to thier respective binary identifier namespaces. I'm not sure that this close coupling is necessary (that's what I'm claiming in my Ph.D. dissertation.) Most of what I claim is that there should be a separation of the service from its underlying infrastructure to make the infrastructure reusable and extensible. However, that shouldn't prevent optimizations like such as the DHT approach. BTW, papers in the ACM HOTNETS conference proposed some interesting ways of implementing query services over DHTs. However, in my (limited) experience, the biggest drawback of a DHT is that the identifers need to be known a priori, as well as the mapping of identifiers to what is being identified. -scooter _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:48:30 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29785 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an0z-00055E-3w; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an0m-000550-Hf for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:47:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29773 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an0j-0001CA-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:47:45 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.159]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an0j-0001C7-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:47:45 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:47:36 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:47:35 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390B01108034@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) Thread-Index: AcNHDInL4qy6lkzFR0GvIVjjin2TpwAQHtRQ From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" To: "Scott Michel" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jul 2003 01:47:36.0530 (UTC) FILETIME=[6775CB20:01C3474E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >the biggest drawback of a DHT is that the identifers need to=20 >be known a priori, as well as the mapping of identifiers to=20 >what is being identified. also, o=20 o o o o o _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:48:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29800 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an14-00056C-MT for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6B1m6T4019596 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an14-00055z-Fa for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29778 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an11-0001CG-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an11-0001CD-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an0z-00055E-3w; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an0m-000550-Hf for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:47:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29773 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an0j-0001CA-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:47:45 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.159]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an0j-0001C7-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:47:45 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:47:36 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:47:35 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390B01108034@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) Thread-Index: AcNHDInL4qy6lkzFR0GvIVjjin2TpwAQHtRQ From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" To: "Scott Michel" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jul 2003 01:47:36.0530 (UTC) FILETIME=[6775CB20:01C3474E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >the biggest drawback of a DHT is that the identifers need to=20 >be known a priori, as well as the mapping of identifiers to=20 >what is being identified. also, o=20 o o o o o _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:57:26 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29962 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:57:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an9g-0005w3-SM; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:57:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an94-0005sv-JD for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29874 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an91-0001Dp-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:19 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.159]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an91-0001Dm-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:19 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:56:19 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:56:19 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390B01108035@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) Thread-Index: AcNHDInL4qy6lkzFR0GvIVjjin2TpwAQHtRQAABf4hA= From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" To: "Scott Michel" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jul 2003 01:56:19.0825 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F5E4610:01C3474F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sorry for the previous mail ... >>the biggest drawback of a DHT is that the identifers need to=20 >>be known a priori, as well as the mapping of identifiers to=20 >>what is being identified. =20 also, o not all P2P groups can form a structured topology o lack of proper support for complex queries o Robustness with Untrusted Participants o DHT abstraction for satisfying a broad range of applications o effectively coping with flux of nodes o interface seems so generic yes, you can see lot of fix to walk around the above drawbacks=20 recently( IPTPS, Hotnets papers.) But, still other P2P formation=20 does more cleverly than DHT. For example, guntella does a better job at supporting mass based file sharing (than DHT systems.) We need something between structured and unstructured nature. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 10 21:57:30 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29978 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an9i-0005zC-DT for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6B1v2Je023004 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an9i-0005yx-8h for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:57:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29949 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an9f-0001Em-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:59 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an9e-0001Ej-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an9g-0005w3-SM; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:57:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19an94-0005sv-JD for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA29874 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an91-0001Dp-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:19 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.159]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19an91-0001Dm-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:56:19 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto2.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:56:19 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:56:19 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390B01108035@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) Thread-Index: AcNHDInL4qy6lkzFR0GvIVjjin2TpwAQHtRQAABf4hA= From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" To: "Scott Michel" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jul 2003 01:56:19.0825 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F5E4610:01C3474F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sorry for the previous mail ... >>the biggest drawback of a DHT is that the identifers need to=20 >>be known a priori, as well as the mapping of identifiers to=20 >>what is being identified. =20 also, o not all P2P groups can form a structured topology o lack of proper support for complex queries o Robustness with Untrusted Participants o DHT abstraction for satisfying a broad range of applications o effectively coping with flux of nodes o interface seems so generic yes, you can see lot of fix to walk around the above drawbacks=20 recently( IPTPS, Hotnets papers.) But, still other P2P formation=20 does more cleverly than DHT. For example, guntella does a better job at supporting mass based file sharing (than DHT systems.) We need something between structured and unstructured nature. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 07:39:36 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA25618 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19awEv-0001eZ-22; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19awER-0001eC-9C for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:38:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA25595 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19awEQ-0004tz-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:38:30 -0400 Received: from thoth.sbs.de ([192.35.17.2]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19awEP-0004tw-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:38:29 -0400 Received: from mail3.siemens.de (mail3.siemens.de [139.25.208.14]) by thoth.sbs.de (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h6BBbQF11681; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:37:27 +0200 (MEST) Received: from blues.mchh.siemens.de (blues.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.204.206]) by mail3.siemens.de (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h6BBbM022782; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:37:23 +0200 (MEST) Received: from mchh253e.mchh.siemens.de (mchh253e.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.200.63]) by blues.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA18334; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:36:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mchh253e.mchh.siemens.de with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <31D5SPBC>; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:36:47 +0200 Message-ID: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> From: Andersen Frank-Uwe To: "'Carlos Alberto Kamienski'" Cc: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" Subject: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:36:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi, I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted software / algorithms. Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? Regards, Frank-Uwe Andersen > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 > An: Andersen Frank-Uwe > Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok > Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS > > > Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), > > Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in > mobile stations > using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and > would be very > pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. > > Thank you, > > Carlos Kamienski > > > > Hi, > > > > I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile > network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. > "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the > p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out > how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, > third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. > > > > One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the > bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even > for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more > precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just > not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > > > > This is why we are most interested in modified search > algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed > storage systems for mobile peers. > > > > Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these > special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Frank-Uwe Andersen > > > > _______________________________________________ > > P2prg mailing list > > P2prg@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > > > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jul 11 07:39:52 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA25633 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19awFH-0001hp-FI for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:24 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6BBdNd0006553 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19awFH-0001hc-BB for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA25612 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19awFG-0004u7-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19awFG-0004u2-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:22 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19awEv-0001eZ-22; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:39:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19awER-0001eC-9C for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:38:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA25595 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19awEQ-0004tz-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:38:30 -0400 Received: from thoth.sbs.de ([192.35.17.2]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19awEP-0004tw-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:38:29 -0400 Received: from mail3.siemens.de (mail3.siemens.de [139.25.208.14]) by thoth.sbs.de (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h6BBbQF11681; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:37:27 +0200 (MEST) Received: from blues.mchh.siemens.de (blues.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.204.206]) by mail3.siemens.de (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h6BBbM022782; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:37:23 +0200 (MEST) Received: from mchh253e.mchh.siemens.de (mchh253e.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.200.63]) by blues.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA18334; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:36:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mchh253e.mchh.siemens.de with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <31D5SPBC>; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:36:47 +0200 Message-ID: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> From: Andersen Frank-Uwe To: "'Carlos Alberto Kamienski'" Cc: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" Subject: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:36:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi, I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted software / algorithms. Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? Regards, Frank-Uwe Andersen > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 > An: Andersen Frank-Uwe > Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok > Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS > > > Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), > > Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in > mobile stations > using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and > would be very > pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. > > Thank you, > > Carlos Kamienski > > > > Hi, > > > > I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile > network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. > "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the > p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out > how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, > third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. > > > > One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the > bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even > for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more > precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just > not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > > > > This is why we are most interested in modified search > algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed > storage systems for mobile peers. > > > > Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these > special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Frank-Uwe Andersen > > > > _______________________________________________ > > P2prg mailing list > > P2prg@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > > > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 11:26:35 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03487 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19azmb-0002UR-JB; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19azm5-0002Tm-7q for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03427 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19azm4-0006TA-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:28 -0400 Received: from marionberry.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.59.100] ident=cu41754) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19azm3-0006T3-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:27 -0400 Received: from columbia.edu (66-108-138-151.nyc.rr.com [66.108.138.151]) (user=jaltman mech=PLAIN bits=0) by marionberry.cc.columbia.edu (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6BFPGX4017378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F0ED6D1.4050607@columbia.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:05 -0400 From: Jeffrey Altman Reply-To: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andersen Frank-Uwe CC: "'Carlos Alberto Kamienski'" , "'p2prg@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> In-Reply-To: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000804010302030300050303" X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000804010302030300050303 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090003040303020106060408" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090003040303020106060408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on mobile phones in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider supports a proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the mobile device memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing communications to occur even when the mobile device is not immediately accessible. Jeffrey Altman Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: >Hi, > >I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted software / algorithms. > >Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". > >Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? > >Regards, > >Frank-Uwe Andersen > > > > > > > >>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >>Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] >>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 >>An: Andersen Frank-Uwe >>Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok >>Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >> >> >>Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), >> >>Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in >>mobile stations >>using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and >>would be very >>pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Carlos Kamienski >> >> >> >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile >>> >>> >>network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. >>"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the >>p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out >>how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, >>third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. >> >> >>>One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the >>> >>> >>bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even >>for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more >>precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just >>not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). >> >> >>>This is why we are most interested in modified search >>> >>> >>algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed >>storage systems for mobile peers. >> >> >>>Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these >>> >>> >>special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. >> >> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Frank-Uwe Andersen >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>P2prg mailing list >>>P2prg@ietf.org >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >P2prg mailing list >P2prg@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > --------------090003040303020106060408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on mobile phones in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth costs, and memory requirements.  However, it seems to me that a P2P proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider supports a proxy for each mobile device on the network.  The search algorithms would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the mobile device memory requirements.  Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing communications to occur even when the mobile device is not immediately accessible.

Jeffrey Altman



Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote:
Hi,

I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted software / algorithms.

Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications".

Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it?

Regards,

Frank-Uwe Andersen





  
-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54
An: Andersen Frank-Uwe
Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok
Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS


Hi Frank-Uwe (and all),

Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in 
mobile stations
using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and 
would be very
pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences.

Thank you,

Carlos Kamienski


    
Hi,

I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile 
      
network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. 
"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the 
p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out 
how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, 
third generation (or beyond) mobile systems.
    
One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the 
      
bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even 
for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more 
precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just 
not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them).
    
This is why we are most interested in modified search 
      
algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed 
storage systems for mobile peers.
    
Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these 
      
special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work.
    
Regards,

Frank-Uwe Andersen

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p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:12 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6BFQ93F009633 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19azmj-0002VI-Hy for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03468 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19azmi-0006Tp-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19azmi-0006Tm-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:08 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19azmb-0002UR-JB; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19azm5-0002Tm-7q for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03427 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19azm4-0006TA-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:28 -0400 Received: from marionberry.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.59.100] ident=cu41754) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19azm3-0006T3-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:27 -0400 Received: from columbia.edu (66-108-138-151.nyc.rr.com [66.108.138.151]) (user=jaltman mech=PLAIN bits=0) by marionberry.cc.columbia.edu (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6BFPGX4017378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F0ED6D1.4050607@columbia.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:25:05 -0400 From: Jeffrey Altman Reply-To: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andersen Frank-Uwe CC: "'Carlos Alberto Kamienski'" , "'p2prg@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> In-Reply-To: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000804010302030300050303" X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000804010302030300050303 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090003040303020106060408" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090003040303020106060408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on mobile phones in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider supports a proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the mobile device memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing communications to occur even when the mobile device is not immediately accessible. Jeffrey Altman Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: >Hi, > >I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted software / algorithms. > >Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". > >Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? > >Regards, > >Frank-Uwe Andersen > > > > > > > >>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >>Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] >>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 >>An: Andersen Frank-Uwe >>Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok >>Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >> >> >>Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), >> >>Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in >>mobile stations >>using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and >>would be very >>pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Carlos Kamienski >> >> >> >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile >>> >>> >>network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. >>"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the >>p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out >>how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, >>third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. >> >> >>>One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the >>> >>> >>bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even >>for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more >>precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just >>not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). >> >> >>>This is why we are most interested in modified search >>> >>> >>algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed >>storage systems for mobile peers. >> >> >>>Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these >>> >>> >>special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. >> >> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Frank-Uwe Andersen >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>P2prg mailing list >>>P2prg@ietf.org >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >P2prg mailing list >P2prg@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > --------------090003040303020106060408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on mobile phones in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth costs, and memory requirements.  However, it seems to me that a P2P proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider supports a proxy for each mobile device on the network.  The search algorithms would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the mobile device memory requirements.  Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing communications to occur even when the mobile device is not immediately accessible.

Jeffrey Altman



Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote:
Hi,

I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted software / algorithms.

Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications".

Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it?

Regards,

Frank-Uwe Andersen





  
-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54
An: Andersen Frank-Uwe
Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok
Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS


Hi Frank-Uwe (and all),

Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in 
mobile stations
using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and 
would be very
pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences.

Thank you,

Carlos Kamienski


    
Hi,

I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile 
      
network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. 
"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the 
p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out 
how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, 
third generation (or beyond) mobile systems.
    
One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the 
      
bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even 
for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more 
precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just 
not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them).
    
This is why we are most interested in modified search 
      
algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed 
storage systems for mobile peers.
    
Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these 
      
special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work.
    
Regards,

Frank-Uwe Andersen

_______________________________________________
P2prg mailing list
P2prg@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg

      
    

_______________________________________________
P2prg mailing list
P2prg@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg
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Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b2YL-0008UD-2P for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:23:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09207 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b2YI-0000QN-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:23:26 -0400 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b2YH-0000Q6-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:23:25 -0400 Received: from sunvice.East.Sun.COM ([129.154.149.21]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6BIMbRs026717; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (vpn-129-152-200-226.East.Sun.COM [129.152.200.226]) by sunvice.East.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h6BIMY6M009550; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F0F00FA.8E44DF11@sun.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:58 -0400 From: Mauricio Arango X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" CC: Andersen Frank-Uwe , "'Carlos Alberto Kamienski'" Subject: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> <3F0ED6D1.4050607@columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think mobile devices and applications could be one of the major business drivers for P2P technology and therefore support the input from Frank-Uwe regarding the need to keep in mind the requirements for mobile systems. In some cases applications may be running in a mobile device and in some cases not, both have advantages and disadvantages. In either case these applications would be peer systems. Jeff's point is well taken, however I think we need to assume an architecture scenario where one main reason to care for P2P is that the number of users and their applications is growing exponentially, independent of whether they run on a mobile device or a proxy. These applications need to find each other and exchange information. Mauricio Jeffrey Altman wrote: > I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on mobile phones > in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth > costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P > proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider supports a > proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms > would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device > thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the mobile device > memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing > communications to occur even when the mobile device is not immediately > accessible. > > Jeffrey Altman > > > > Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be >> interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p >> clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted >> software / algorithms. >> >> Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on >> Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A >> Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile >> Applications". >> >> Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? >> >> Regards, >> >> Frank-Uwe Andersen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >> > Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] >> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 >> > An: Andersen Frank-Uwe >> > Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok >> > Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >> > >> > >> > Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), >> > >> > Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in >> > mobile stations >> > using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and >> > would be very >> > pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. >> > >> > Thank you, >> > >> > Carlos Kamienski >> > >> > >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile >> >> >> > network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. >> > "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the >> > p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out >> > how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, >> > third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. >> > >> >> One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the >> >> >> > bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even >> > for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more >> > precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just >> > not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). >> > >> >> This is why we are most interested in modified search >> >> >> > algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed >> > storage systems for mobile peers. >> > >> >> Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these >> >> >> > special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. >> > >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Frank-Uwe Andersen >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> P2prg mailing list >> >> P2prg@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> P2prg mailing list >> P2prg@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >> _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jul 11 14:24:39 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09248 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b2Yy-00005C-Pt for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:12 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6BIO8ld000317 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b2Yy-000052-JL for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09225 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b2Yw-0000Qq-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b2Yv-0000Qm-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b2Yr-0008Uw-3J; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b2YL-0008UD-2P for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:23:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09207 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b2YI-0000QN-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:23:26 -0400 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b2YH-0000Q6-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:23:25 -0400 Received: from sunvice.East.Sun.COM ([129.154.149.21]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6BIMbRs026717; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (vpn-129-152-200-226.East.Sun.COM [129.152.200.226]) by sunvice.East.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h6BIMY6M009550; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F0F00FA.8E44DF11@sun.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:24:58 -0400 From: Mauricio Arango X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" CC: Andersen Frank-Uwe , "'Carlos Alberto Kamienski'" Subject: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> <3F0ED6D1.4050607@columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think mobile devices and applications could be one of the major business drivers for P2P technology and therefore support the input from Frank-Uwe regarding the need to keep in mind the requirements for mobile systems. In some cases applications may be running in a mobile device and in some cases not, both have advantages and disadvantages. In either case these applications would be peer systems. Jeff's point is well taken, however I think we need to assume an architecture scenario where one main reason to care for P2P is that the number of users and their applications is growing exponentially, independent of whether they run on a mobile device or a proxy. These applications need to find each other and exchange information. Mauricio Jeffrey Altman wrote: > I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on mobile phones > in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth > costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P > proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider supports a > proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms > would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device > thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the mobile device > memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing > communications to occur even when the mobile device is not immediately > accessible. > > Jeffrey Altman > > > > Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be >> interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p >> clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted >> software / algorithms. >> >> Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on >> Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A >> Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile >> Applications". >> >> Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? >> >> Regards, >> >> Frank-Uwe Andersen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >> > Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] >> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 >> > An: Andersen Frank-Uwe >> > Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok >> > Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >> > >> > >> > Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), >> > >> > Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in >> > mobile stations >> > using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and >> > would be very >> > pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. >> > >> > Thank you, >> > >> > Carlos Kamienski >> > >> > >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile >> >> >> > network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. >> > "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the >> > p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out >> > how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, >> > third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. >> > >> >> One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the >> >> >> > bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even >> > for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more >> > precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just >> > not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). >> > >> >> This is why we are most interested in modified search >> >> >> > algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed >> > storage systems for mobile peers. >> > >> >> Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these >> >> >> > special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. >> > >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Frank-Uwe Andersen >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> P2prg mailing list >> >> P2prg@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> P2prg mailing list >> P2prg@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >> _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 15:47:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14152 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b3rA-0006Qe-Df; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b3qD-0006Px-Ri for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:46:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14079 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b3q7-0001TS-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:45:55 -0400 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net ([216.148.227.85]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b3q6-0001Sv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:45:54 -0400 Received: from charter.net (c-67-168-233-105.client.comcast.net[67.168.233.105](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003071119451901400qa8uce> (Authid: coderman42); Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:45:19 +0000 Message-ID: <3F0F1438.3070104@charter.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:47:04 -0700 From: coderman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] P2Prg intro / considerations for mobile peers References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDD4@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> In-Reply-To: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDD4@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: >Hi, > >I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. > > Ad-hoc/mobile community wireless and peer networks are a pair of complementary technologies that were made to go together. I'd love to hear more about the types of applications and features you anticipate designing / implementing... >One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > >This is why we are most interested in modified search algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed storage systems for mobile peers. > > A project I have been working on for a while may be of interest. It is called "alpine" and uses a unicast UDP discovery mechanism with peer grouping and profiling to optimize keyword and arbitrary metadata based searches in a fully decentralized manner. Specifically: * Peer communication uses small UDP datagrams without any forwarding. * NAT is assumed and public endpoint resolution supported in the protocol. This works perfectly for cone NAT's but suffers inefficiencies when two symmetric NAT clients are communicating. This works well for mobile clients changing IP's and/or ports. * A single level of indirection is supported so that remote peers (wireless clients, clients on dial-up, etc) can utilize the search capacity of a home computer on broadband or any other peer that may grant them a "proxy" session. In this case query packets are sent to a single peer who then repeats the query using its own peer groups (and only once, no multiple forwards). * Bandwidth consumption in the UDP based application level network stack is configurable by the user. The "peer proxy" mode was designed specificaly for this situation, where a low bandwidth client wishes to legitimately utilize the resources of a server or high bandwidth peer to perform discovery on its behalf. I am having some hosting problems at the moment; a temporary cache of some documentation is available here: http://67.168.233.105:8080/alpine/overview.html http://67.168.233.105:8080/alpine/discovery.html >Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. > I would love to know more about the specific applications you intend to use this discovery / search feature for. What types of architectures have you tried, and how were they insufficient? (I.e. a DHT would allow efficient lookup with very little bandwidth, but providing a flexible metadata / keyword discovery on top of a DHT is proving difficult) Best regards, Martin Peck. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jul 11 15:47:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14168 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b3rG-0006Rt-CP for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6BJl6lF024788 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b3rG-0006Rj-9E for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14138 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b3rE-0001UX-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b3rE-0001UU-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b3rA-0006Qe-Df; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:47:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b3qD-0006Px-Ri for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:46:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14079 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b3q7-0001TS-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:45:55 -0400 Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net ([216.148.227.85]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b3q6-0001Sv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:45:54 -0400 Received: from charter.net (c-67-168-233-105.client.comcast.net[67.168.233.105](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003071119451901400qa8uce> (Authid: coderman42); Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:45:19 +0000 Message-ID: <3F0F1438.3070104@charter.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:47:04 -0700 From: coderman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] P2Prg intro / considerations for mobile peers References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDD4@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> In-Reply-To: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDD4@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: >Hi, > >I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. "mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. > > Ad-hoc/mobile community wireless and peer networks are a pair of complementary technologies that were made to go together. I'd love to hear more about the types of applications and features you anticipate designing / implementing... >One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > >This is why we are most interested in modified search algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed storage systems for mobile peers. > > A project I have been working on for a while may be of interest. It is called "alpine" and uses a unicast UDP discovery mechanism with peer grouping and profiling to optimize keyword and arbitrary metadata based searches in a fully decentralized manner. Specifically: * Peer communication uses small UDP datagrams without any forwarding. * NAT is assumed and public endpoint resolution supported in the protocol. This works perfectly for cone NAT's but suffers inefficiencies when two symmetric NAT clients are communicating. This works well for mobile clients changing IP's and/or ports. * A single level of indirection is supported so that remote peers (wireless clients, clients on dial-up, etc) can utilize the search capacity of a home computer on broadband or any other peer that may grant them a "proxy" session. In this case query packets are sent to a single peer who then repeats the query using its own peer groups (and only once, no multiple forwards). * Bandwidth consumption in the UDP based application level network stack is configurable by the user. The "peer proxy" mode was designed specificaly for this situation, where a low bandwidth client wishes to legitimately utilize the resources of a server or high bandwidth peer to perform discovery on its behalf. I am having some hosting problems at the moment; a temporary cache of some documentation is available here: http://67.168.233.105:8080/alpine/overview.html http://67.168.233.105:8080/alpine/discovery.html >Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. > I would love to know more about the specific applications you intend to use this discovery / search feature for. What types of architectures have you tried, and how were they insufficient? (I.e. a DHT would allow efficient lookup with very little bandwidth, but providing a flexible metadata / keyword discovery on top of a DHT is proving difficult) Best regards, Martin Peck. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 17:52:35 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19093 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b5o9-0006Sw-9N; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b5nW-0006SR-9f for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19049 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b5nT-00034S-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:19 -0400 Received: from mxsmta02.inithost.com ([209.235.30.104] helo=mxsmta02.dellhost.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b5nS-00034N-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:19 -0400 Received: from garbagedump.com ([24.128.102.183]) by mxsmta02.dellhost.com (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20030711214907.NWWV7659.mxsmta02.dellhost.com@garbagedump.com>; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:49:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0F3159.4020600@garbagedump.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:21 -0400 From: "C. Wegrzyn" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4a; MultiZilla v1.4.0.4A) Gecko/20030710 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, af, sq, ar, ar-dz, ar-bh, ar-eg, ar-iq, ar-jo, ar-kw, ar-lb, ar-ly, ar-ma, ar-om, ar-qa, ar-sa, ar-sy, ar-tn, ar-ae, ar-ye, hy, ast, eu, be, bs, bg, ca, zh, zh-cn, zh-hk, zh-sg, zh-tw, hr, cs, da, nl, nl-be, undefined, en-au, en-bz, en-ca, en-ie, en-jm, en-nz, en-ph, en-za, en-tt, en-gb, undefined, en-zw, eo, et, fo, fi, fr, fr-be, fr-ca, fr-fr, fr-lu, fr-mc, fr-ch, gl, ka, de, de-at, de-de, de-li, de-lu, de-ch, el, he, hu, is, id, ga, it, it-ch, ja, ko, ko-kp, ko-kr, lv, lt, mk-mk, ms, no, nb, nn, pl, pt, pt-br, ro, ru, gd, sr, sk, sl, es, es-ar, es-bo, es-cl, es-co, es-cr, es-do, es-ec, es-sv, es-gt, es-hn, es-mx, es-ni, es-pa, es-py, es-pe, es-pr, es-es, es-uy, es-ve, sv, sv-fi, th, tr, uk, vi, cy, xh, yi, zu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" CC: Andersen Frank-Uwe , "'Carlos Alberto Kamienski'" Subject: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> <3F0ED6D1.4050607@columbia.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F0ED6D1.4050607@columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. I can tell you I my secure P2P platform on a Zaurus with OpenZaurus and a GPRS card - and I can tell you it works fine. I also use the program on a iPAQ with the same setup. While I am careful not to send "large files" or receive them I will tell you all this works. Now I am not sure I would want to use a phone keypad to do anything useful. BTW I also use SIP to communicate with it! Chuck Jeffrey Altman wrote: > I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on mobile phones > in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth > costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P > proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider supports a > proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms > would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device > thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the mobile device > memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing > communications to occur even when the mobile device is not immediately > accessible. > > Jeffrey Altman > > > > Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted software / algorithms. >> >>Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". >> >>Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? >> >>Regards, >> >>Frank-Uwe Andersen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >>>Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] >>>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 >>>An: Andersen Frank-Uwe >>>Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok >>>Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >>> >>> >>>Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), >>> >>>Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in >>>mobile stations >>>using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and >>>would be very >>>pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. >>> >>>Thank you, >>> >>>Carlos Kamienski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hi, >>>> >>>>I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile >>>> >>>> >>>network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. >>>"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the >>>p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out >>>how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, >>>third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. >>> >>> >>>>One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the >>>> >>>> >>>bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even >>>for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more >>>precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just >>>not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). >>> >>> >>>>This is why we are most interested in modified search >>>> >>>> >>>algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed >>>storage systems for mobile peers. >>> >>> >>>>Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these >>>> >>>> >>>special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. >>> >>> >>>>Regards, >>>> >>>>Frank-Uwe Andersen >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>P2prg mailing list >>>>P2prg@ietf.org >>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>P2prg mailing list >>P2prg@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >> >> _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jul 11 17:52:39 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19108 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b5oK-0006U4-OL for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:13 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6BLqCK7024920 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b5oJ-0006Tq-6a for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19078 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b5oG-00035T-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b5oF-00035Q-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b5o9-0006Sw-9N; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:52:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19b5nW-0006SR-9f for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19049 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b5nT-00034S-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:19 -0400 Received: from mxsmta02.inithost.com ([209.235.30.104] helo=mxsmta02.dellhost.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19b5nS-00034N-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:19 -0400 Received: from garbagedump.com ([24.128.102.183]) by mxsmta02.dellhost.com (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20030711214907.NWWV7659.mxsmta02.dellhost.com@garbagedump.com>; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:49:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0F3159.4020600@garbagedump.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:21 -0400 From: "C. Wegrzyn" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4a; MultiZilla v1.4.0.4A) Gecko/20030710 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, af, sq, ar, ar-dz, ar-bh, ar-eg, ar-iq, ar-jo, ar-kw, ar-lb, ar-ly, ar-ma, ar-om, ar-qa, ar-sa, ar-sy, ar-tn, ar-ae, ar-ye, hy, ast, eu, be, bs, bg, ca, zh, zh-cn, zh-hk, zh-sg, zh-tw, hr, cs, da, nl, nl-be, undefined, en-au, en-bz, en-ca, en-ie, en-jm, en-nz, en-ph, en-za, en-tt, en-gb, undefined, en-zw, eo, et, fo, fi, fr, fr-be, fr-ca, fr-fr, fr-lu, fr-mc, fr-ch, gl, ka, de, de-at, de-de, de-li, de-lu, de-ch, el, he, hu, is, id, ga, it, it-ch, ja, ko, ko-kp, ko-kr, lv, lt, mk-mk, ms, no, nb, nn, pl, pt, pt-br, ro, ru, gd, sr, sk, sl, es, es-ar, es-bo, es-cl, es-co, es-cr, es-do, es-ec, es-sv, es-gt, es-hn, es-mx, es-ni, es-pa, es-py, es-pe, es-pr, es-es, es-uy, es-ve, sv, sv-fi, th, tr, uk, vi, cy, xh, yi, zu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" CC: Andersen Frank-Uwe , "'Carlos Alberto Kamienski'" Subject: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDE2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> <3F0ED6D1.4050607@columbia.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F0ED6D1.4050607@columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. I can tell you I my secure P2P platform on a Zaurus with OpenZaurus and a GPRS card - and I can tell you it works fine. I also use the program on a iPAQ with the same setup. While I am careful not to send "large files" or receive them I will tell you all this works. Now I am not sure I would want to use a phone keypad to do anything useful. BTW I also use SIP to communicate with it! Chuck Jeffrey Altman wrote: > I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on mobile phones > in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth > costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P > proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider supports a > proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms > would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device > thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the mobile device > memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing > communications to occur even when the mobile device is not immediately > accessible. > > Jeffrey Altman > > > > Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?) would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan to use specially adapted software / algorithms. >> >>Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". >> >>Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? >> >>Regards, >> >>Frank-Uwe Andersen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >>>Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] >>>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 >>>An: Andersen Frank-Uwe >>>Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok >>>Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >>> >>> >>>Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), >>> >>>Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in >>>mobile stations >>>using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and >>>would be very >>>pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. >>> >>>Thank you, >>> >>>Carlos Kamienski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hi, >>>> >>>>I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile >>>> >>>> >>>network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. >>>"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the >>>p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out >>>how this would affect mobile devices using, for example, >>>third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. >>> >>> >>>>One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the >>>> >>>> >>>bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even >>>for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more >>>precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just >>>not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). >>> >>> >>>>This is why we are most interested in modified search >>>> >>>> >>>algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed >>>storage systems for mobile peers. >>> >>> >>>>Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these >>>> >>>> >>>special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. >>> >>> >>>>Regards, >>>> >>>>Frank-Uwe Andersen >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>P2prg mailing list >>>>P2prg@ietf.org >>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>P2prg mailing list >>P2prg@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >> >> _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From p2prg-admin@ietf.org Mon Jul 14 08:17:44 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14628 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c2GL-0001aL-HG; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c2Fr-0001Zp-7A for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:16:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14562 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c2Fp-0006GU-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:16:29 -0400 Received: from goliath.siemens.de ([192.35.17.28]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c2Fo-0006GQ-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:16:28 -0400 Received: from mail1.siemens.de (mail1.siemens.de [139.23.33.14]) by goliath.siemens.de (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h6ECGLo27962; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:16:21 +0200 (MEST) Received: from blues.mchh.siemens.de (blues.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.204.206]) by mail1.siemens.de (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h6ECGJa23067; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:16:19 +0200 (MEST) Received: from mchh248e.mchh.siemens.de (mchh248e.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.200.58]) by blues.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01288; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:15:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mchh248e.mchh.siemens.de with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:15:44 +0200 Message-ID: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDF2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> From: Andersen Frank-Uwe To: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" Cc: "'C. Wegrzyn'" Subject: AW: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:15:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Chuck, I appreciate the information you provided on your secure p2p platform / = zaurus / gprs combination. For a short moment, it made me think "wow, = there seems to be nothing left to research because everything is solved = already". However, I would like to make sure that we have the same = understanding of the p2p client functionality. I have to admit not to = be technically acquainted with your platform, but two questions seem to = be justified from my point of view: - what amount of bandwidth did the (permanent?) p2p = resource/information search data stream take in your test setup? - what amount of bandwidth did the (permanent?) p2p = self-organization-related data stream take in your test setup? The existence of such data streams, as well as the bandwidth that is = dedicated to them is, in my personal opinion, a key differentiating = factor for p2p systems. Thank you & regards, Frank-Uwe -=20 > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: C. Wegrzyn [mailto:wegrzyn@garbagedump.com] > Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Juli 2003 23:51 > An: 'p2prg@ietf.org' > Cc: Andersen Frank-Uwe; 'Carlos Alberto Kamienski' > Betreff: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >=20 >=20 > Hi. I can tell you I my secure P2P platform on a Zaurus with=20 > OpenZaurus=20 > and a GPRS card - and I can tell you it works fine. I also use the=20 > program on a iPAQ with the same setup. While I am careful not to send = > "large files" or receive them I will tell you all this works.=20 > Now I am=20 > not sure I would want to use a phone keypad to do anything=20 > useful. BTW=20 > I also use SIP to communicate with it! >=20 > Chuck >=20 > Jeffrey Altman wrote: >=20 > > I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on=20 > mobile phones=20 > > in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth=20 > > costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P = > > proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider=20 > supports a=20 > > proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms = > > would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device=20 > > thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the=20 > mobile device=20 > > memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing=20 > > communications to occur even when the mobile device is not=20 > immediately=20 > > accessible. > > > > Jeffrey Altman > > > > > > > > Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: > > > >>Hi, > >> > >>I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?)=20 > would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to=20 > run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan=20 > to use specially adapted software / algorithms. > >> > >>Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International=20 > Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a=20 > contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for=20 > Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". > >> > >>Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? > >> > >>Regards, > >> > >>Frank-Uwe Andersen > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> =20 > >> > >>>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > >>>Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] > >>>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 > >>>An: Andersen Frank-Uwe > >>>Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok > >>>Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS > >>> > >>> > >>>Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), > >>> > >>>Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in=20 > >>>mobile stations > >>>using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and=20 > >>>would be very > >>>pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. > >>> > >>>Thank you, > >>> > >>>Carlos Kamienski > >>> > >>> > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>Hi, > >>>> > >>>>I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>>network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g.=20 > >>>"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the=20 > >>>p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out=20 > >>>how this would affect mobile devices using, for example,=20 > >>>third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the=20 > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>>bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even=20 > >>>for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more=20 > >>>precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just=20 > >>>not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>This is why we are most interested in modified search=20 > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>>algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed=20 > >>>storage systems for mobile peers. > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these=20 > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>>special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>Regards, > >>>> > >>>>Frank-Uwe Andersen > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>P2prg mailing list > >>>>P2prg@ietf.org > >>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > >>>> > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>> =20 > >>> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>P2prg mailing list > >>P2prg@ietf.org > >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > >> =20 > >> >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jul 14 08:17:46 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14643 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c2Gb-0001bY-DL for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:17 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6ECHHBO006164 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c2Gb-0001bL-88 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14607 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c2Ga-0006Gt-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:16 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c2GZ-0006Gp-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:15 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c2GL-0001aL-HG; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:17:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c2Fr-0001Zp-7A for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:16:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14562 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c2Fp-0006GU-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:16:29 -0400 Received: from goliath.siemens.de ([192.35.17.28]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c2Fo-0006GQ-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:16:28 -0400 Received: from mail1.siemens.de (mail1.siemens.de [139.23.33.14]) by goliath.siemens.de (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h6ECGLo27962; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:16:21 +0200 (MEST) Received: from blues.mchh.siemens.de (blues.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.204.206]) by mail1.siemens.de (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id h6ECGJa23067; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:16:19 +0200 (MEST) Received: from mchh248e.mchh.siemens.de (mchh248e.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.200.58]) by blues.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01288; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:15:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mchh248e.mchh.siemens.de with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:15:44 +0200 Message-ID: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDF2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> From: Andersen Frank-Uwe To: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" Cc: "'C. Wegrzyn'" Subject: AW: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:15:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Chuck, I appreciate the information you provided on your secure p2p platform / = zaurus / gprs combination. For a short moment, it made me think "wow, = there seems to be nothing left to research because everything is solved = already". However, I would like to make sure that we have the same = understanding of the p2p client functionality. I have to admit not to = be technically acquainted with your platform, but two questions seem to = be justified from my point of view: - what amount of bandwidth did the (permanent?) p2p = resource/information search data stream take in your test setup? - what amount of bandwidth did the (permanent?) p2p = self-organization-related data stream take in your test setup? The existence of such data streams, as well as the bandwidth that is = dedicated to them is, in my personal opinion, a key differentiating = factor for p2p systems. Thank you & regards, Frank-Uwe -=20 > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: C. Wegrzyn [mailto:wegrzyn@garbagedump.com] > Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Juli 2003 23:51 > An: 'p2prg@ietf.org' > Cc: Andersen Frank-Uwe; 'Carlos Alberto Kamienski' > Betreff: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >=20 >=20 > Hi. I can tell you I my secure P2P platform on a Zaurus with=20 > OpenZaurus=20 > and a GPRS card - and I can tell you it works fine. I also use the=20 > program on a iPAQ with the same setup. While I am careful not to send = > "large files" or receive them I will tell you all this works.=20 > Now I am=20 > not sure I would want to use a phone keypad to do anything=20 > useful. BTW=20 > I also use SIP to communicate with it! >=20 > Chuck >=20 > Jeffrey Altman wrote: >=20 > > I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on=20 > mobile phones=20 > > in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth=20 > > costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P = > > proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider=20 > supports a=20 > > proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms = > > would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device=20 > > thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the=20 > mobile device=20 > > memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing=20 > > communications to occur even when the mobile device is not=20 > immediately=20 > > accessible. > > > > Jeffrey Altman > > > > > > > > Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: > > > >>Hi, > >> > >>I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?)=20 > would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to=20 > run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan=20 > to use specially adapted software / algorithms. > >> > >>Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International=20 > Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a=20 > contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for=20 > Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". > >> > >>Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? > >> > >>Regards, > >> > >>Frank-Uwe Andersen > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> =20 > >> > >>>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > >>>Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] > >>>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 > >>>An: Andersen Frank-Uwe > >>>Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok > >>>Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS > >>> > >>> > >>>Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), > >>> > >>>Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in=20 > >>>mobile stations > >>>using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and=20 > >>>would be very > >>>pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. > >>> > >>>Thank you, > >>> > >>>Carlos Kamienski > >>> > >>> > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>Hi, > >>>> > >>>>I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>>network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g.=20 > >>>"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the=20 > >>>p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out=20 > >>>how this would affect mobile devices using, for example,=20 > >>>third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the=20 > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>>bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even=20 > >>>for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more=20 > >>>precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just=20 > >>>not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>This is why we are most interested in modified search=20 > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>>algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed=20 > >>>storage systems for mobile peers. > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these=20 > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>>special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. > >>> =20 > >>> > >>>>Regards, > >>>> > >>>>Frank-Uwe Andersen > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>P2prg mailing list > >>>>P2prg@ietf.org > >>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > >>>> > >>>> =20 > >>>> > >>> =20 > >>> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>P2prg mailing list > >>P2prg@ietf.org > >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > >> =20 > >> >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jul 14 10:32:51 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24445 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c4NM-0008Lh-39 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:25 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6EEWOmK032089 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c4NL-0008LS-G8 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24392 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c4NJ-0000Y2-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:21 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c4NI-0000Xy-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c4My-0008Fz-Vb; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c4M8-00086t-OW for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:31:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24252 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c4M5-0000W2-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:31:05 -0400 Received: from mxsmta01.inithost.com ([209.235.30.103] helo=mxsmta01.dellhost.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c4M4-0000Vz-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:31:04 -0400 Received: from garbagedump.com ([24.128.102.183]) by mxsmta01.dellhost.com (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20030714143259.DMOI6624.mxsmta01.dellhost.com@garbagedump.com>; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:32:59 -0400 Message-ID: <3F12BEA4.1080103@garbagedump.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:31:00 -0400 From: "C. Wegrzyn" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4a) Gecko/20030712 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, af, sq, ar, ar-dz, ar-bh, ar-eg, ar-iq, ar-jo, ar-kw, ar-lb, ar-ly, ar-ma, ar-om, ar-qa, ar-sa, ar-sy, ar-tn, ar-ae, ar-ye, hy, ast, eu, be, bs, bg, ca, zh, zh-cn, zh-hk, zh-sg, zh-tw, hr, cs, da, nl, nl-be, undefined, en-au, en-bz, en-ca, en-ie, en-jm, en-nz, en-ph, en-za, en-tt, en-gb, undefined, en-zw, eo, et, fo, fi, fr, fr-be, fr-ca, fr-fr, fr-lu, fr-mc, fr-ch, gl, ka, de, de-at, de-de, de-li, de-lu, de-ch, el, he, hu, is, id, ga, it, it-ch, ja, ko, ko-kp, ko-kr, lv, lt, mk-mk, ms, no, nb, nn, pl, pt, pt-br, ro, ru, gd, sr, sk, sl, es, es-ar, es-bo, es-cl, es-co, es-cr, es-do, es-ec, es-sv, es-gt, es-hn, es-mx, es-ni, es-pa, es-py, es-pe, es-pr, es-es, es-uy, es-ve, sv, sv-fi, th, tr, uk, vi, cy, xh, yi, zu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andersen Frank-Uwe CC: "'p2prg@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: AW: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS References: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDF2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> In-Reply-To: <5BE5F1117AEDD5118BFC0000D11EA39CC8BDF2@blns205e.bln.icn.siemens.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA24254 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank-Uwe. Right now there is no search from the client - it uses a=20 service on the back end server; the results are sent to the client. It=20 seemed to be the easiest and cheapest solution. The bandwidth usage is=20 kept to a small amount - usually under 50 kbs, max. This happens after=20 the server finds the results. I know this doesn't scale, and that was=20 fine with what I was trying to accomplish. Regards, Chuck Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: >Hello Chuck, > >I appreciate the information you provided on your secure p2p platform / = zaurus / gprs combination. For a short moment, it made me think "wow, the= re seems to be nothing left to research because everything is solved alre= ady". However, I would like to make sure that we have the same understand= ing of the p2p client functionality. I have to admit not to be technicall= y acquainted with your platform, but two questions seem to be justified f= rom my point of view: >- what amount of bandwidth did the (permanent?) p2p resource/information= search data stream take in your test setup? >- what amount of bandwidth did the (permanent?) p2p self-organization-re= lated data stream take in your test setup? > >The existence of such data streams, as well as the bandwidth that is ded= icated to them is, in my personal opinion, a key differentiating factor f= or p2p systems. > >Thank you & regards, > >Frank-Uwe > > >-=20 > > > =20 > >>-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- >>Von: C. Wegrzyn [mailto:wegrzyn@garbagedump.com] >>Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Juli 2003 23:51 >>An: 'p2prg@ietf.org' >>Cc: Andersen Frank-Uwe; 'Carlos Alberto Kamienski' >>Betreff: Re: AW: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >> >> >>Hi. I can tell you I my secure P2P platform on a Zaurus with=20 >>OpenZaurus=20 >>and a GPRS card - and I can tell you it works fine. I also use the=20 >>program on a iPAQ with the same setup. While I am careful not to send=20 >>"large files" or receive them I will tell you all this works.=20 >>Now I am=20 >>not sure I would want to use a phone keypad to do anything=20 >>useful. BTW=20 >>I also use SIP to communicate with it! >> >>Chuck >> >>Jeffrey Altman wrote: >> >> =20 >> >>>I personally do not see a pure-P2P application model on=20 >>> =20 >>> >>mobile phones=20 >> =20 >> >>>in the near term if only because of the pricing model, bandwidth=20 >>>costs, and memory requirements. However, it seems to me that a P2P=20 >>>proxy model does work quite well where the mobile provider=20 >>> =20 >>> >>supports a=20 >> =20 >> >>>proxy for each mobile device on the network. The search algorithms=20 >>>would be performed against the proxy not against the mobile device=20 >>>thereby saving the costs of bandwidth and reducing the=20 >>> =20 >>> >>mobile device=20 >> =20 >> >>>memory requirements. Mobile proxies would also be 24/7 allowing=20 >>>communications to occur even when the mobile device is not=20 >>> =20 >>> >>immediately=20 >> =20 >> >>>accessible. >>> >>>Jeffrey Altman >>> >>> >>> >>>Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: >>> >>> =20 >>> >>>>Hi, >>>> >>>>I cannot help you very much there, but we (+this group?)=20 >>>> =20 >>>> >>would be interested in knowing whether you are planning to=20 >>run unmodified p2p clients over cellular links or if you plan=20 >>to use specially adapted software / algorithms. >> =20 >> >>>>Btw.: In the proceedings of the "2nd International=20 >>>> =20 >>>> >>Conference on Peer-to-Peer Computing (P2P 2002)", there is a=20 >>contribution named "A Distributed Search Service for=20 >>Peer-to-Peer File Sharing in Mobile Applications". >> =20 >> >>>>Has anyone seen/read this contribution and could rate it? >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>> >>>>Frank-Uwe Andersen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>=20 >>>> >>>> =20 >>>> >>>>>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >>>>>Von: Carlos Alberto Kamienski [mailto:cak@cin.ufpe.br] >>>>>Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Juli 2003 11:54 >>>>>An: Andersen Frank-Uwe >>>>>Cc: 'p2prg@irtf.org'; Djamel Sadok >>>>>Betreff: Re: [P2Prg] considerations for mobile peers - GPRS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Hi Frank-Uwe (and all), >>>>> >>>>>Have you (someone) ever worked with p2p applications in=20 >>>>>mobile stations >>>>>using GPRS? We are just starting to work with p2p+gprs and=20 >>>>>would be very >>>>>pleased to get hints and pointers to previous experiences. >>>>> >>>>>Thank you, >>>>> >>>>>Carlos Kamienski >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>>>Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>>I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>network manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g.=20 >>>>>"mobile portals", WAP systems and the like, I recognized the=20 >>>>>p2p "wave" for quite some time, but we couldn't figure out=20 >>>>>how this would affect mobile devices using, for example,=20 >>>>>third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>>>One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>bandwidth consumption for search algorithms that occurs even=20 >>>>>for passive participants of most p2p networks. To be more=20 >>>>>precise: running today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just=20 >>>>>not feasible for several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>>>This is why we are most interested in modified search=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>algorithms as well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed=20 >>>>>storage systems for mobile peers. >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>>>Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>special requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>>Frank-Uwe Andersen >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>P2prg mailing list >>>>>>P2prg@ietf.org >>>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >>>>>> >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>P2prg mailing list >>>>P2prg@ietf.org >>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg >>>>=20 >>>> >>>> =20 >>>> >> =20 >> > > =20 > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jul 14 23:28:40 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA25156 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cGU8-0001by-T0 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:12 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6F3SCJd006190 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cGU8-0001bl-IZ for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA25106 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cGU6-0007P5-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:10 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cGU5-0007P1-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cGTx-0001a8-2G; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aebC-00014W-Ur for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:48:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11705 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aebA-00054T-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:48:48 -0400 Received: from mailhost2.metro1.com ([198.69.83.45]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aeb9-00054L-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:48:47 -0400 Received: from mailhost2.metro1.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost2 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3267B1CCD0 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from METRO1-EX1.ad.metro1.com (exchange4.metro1.com [192.168.240.94]) by mailhost2.metro1.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F14AD1CCCD for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:48:31 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:48:31 -0700 Message-ID: <4CCD2C8AEBBC0743BFE84F2B6A7551EB0CC62F@METRO1-EX1.ad.metro1.com> Thread-Topic: Re: lightweight decentralized search / discovery Thread-Index: AcNHAw0tGRZkfX5TSHi11IlnHvujPQ== From: "Martin Peck" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [P2Prg] Re: lightweight decentralized search / discovery Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andersen Frank-Uwe wrote: >Hi, > >I am working in a think-tank like department of a mobile network >manufacturer. Having worked on the design of e.g. "mobile portals", >WAP systems and the like, I recognized the p2p "wave" for quite some >time, but we couldn't figure out how this would affect mobile devices >using, for example, third generation (or beyond) mobile systems. Ad-hoc/mobile community wireless and peer networks are a pair of complementary technologies that were made to go together. I'd love to hear more about the types of applications and features you anticipate designing / implementing... >One of the main obstacle is, in our point of view, the bandwidth >consumption for search algorithms that occurs even for passive >participants of most p2p networks. To be more precise: running >today's p2p clients on mobile phones is just not feasible for >several reasons (simple pricing is one of them). > >This is why we are most interested in modified search algorithms as >well as bandwidth limited/optimized distributed storage systems for >mobile peers. A project I have been working on for a while may be of interest. It is called "alpine" and uses a unicast UDP discovery mechanism with peer grouping and profiling to optimize keyword and arbitrary metadata based discovery in a fully decentralized manner. Specifically: * Peer communication uses small UDP datagrams without any forwarding. * NAT is assumed and public endpoint resolution supported in the protocol. This works perfectly for cone NAT's but suffers inefficiencies when two symmetric NAT clients are communicating. This works well for mobile clients changing IP's and/or ports. * A single level of indirection is supported so that remote peers (wireless clients, clients on dial-up, etc) can utilize the search capacity of a home computer on broadband or any other peer that may grant them a "proxy" session. In this case query packets are sent to a single peer who then repeats the query using its own peer groups (and only once, no multiple forwards). * Bandwidth consumption in the UDP based application level network stack is configurable by the user. The "peer proxy" mode was designed specifically for this situation, = where a low bandwidth client wishes to legitimately utilize the resources of a server or high bandwidth peer to perform discovery on its behalf. I am having some hosting problems at the moment; a temporary cache of some documentation is available here: http://67.168.233.105:8080/alpine/overview.html http://67.168.233.105:8080/alpine/discovery.html 802.11 wifi is my main wireless network target, although I am also having fun with the J2ME toolkit on the motorola i88 iDEN phones (Nextel) despite their comparatively constricted bandwidth. A wifi client could support a full alpine stack, however, the 2.5G/3G data services from the major wireless carriers are either slow enough or expensive enough to warrant a lightweight client stack only (which would use a full fledged peer node to perform discovery requests by proxy) >Hence, may we suggest to the group to bear in mind these special >requirements for mobile systems for the upcoming work. I would love to know more about the specific applications you intend to use this discovery / search feature for. What types of architectures have you tried, and how were they insufficient? (I.e. a DHT would allow efficient lookup with very little bandwidth, but providing a flexible metadata / keyword discovery on top of a DHT is proving difficult) Best regards, Martin Peck. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jul 14 23:28:53 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA25183 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cGUL-0001cI-Bu for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:25 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6F3SP3W006210 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cGUK-0001c5-Nm for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA25105 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cGU6-0007P8-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:10 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cGU5-0007P2-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cGTw-0001Zz-Qc; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:28:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Zjiz-0007Hu-AN for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:05:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25958 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 00:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Zjix-0005yT-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:05:03 -0400 Received: from smtp3.att.ne.jp ([165.76.15.139]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Zjiw-0005yP-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:05:02 -0400 Received: from yha.att.ne.jp (h219-110-056-152.catv01.itscom.jp [219.110.56.152]) by smtp3.att.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6D515490 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:04:59 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3F0A42EB.5040209@yha.att.ne.jp> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:04:59 +0900 From: Sam Joseph Reply-To: sam@neurogrid.com Organization: NeuroGrid http://www.neurogrid.net/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; ja-JP; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Descriptive discovery mechanisms (Was: RE: [P2Prg] Intro) References: <3F0A018B.50803B95@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Serguei and Mauricio: Mauricio Arango wrote: >> While making DHTs suitable for fuzzy searches is >>definitely a noble endeavor, personally I don't really >>have high hopes for this approach. What makes me much >>more interested is this: >> >> 1. Are there any non-DHT logarithmically scalable >> search algorithms that would be suitable for >> fuzzy, imprecise searches? >> I think getting good scalability from non-DHT systems is hard, but there are a number of systems trying to achieve this either by combining DHTs and fuzzy searches, such as PSearch, HyperCup or other approaches like NeuroGrid and Alpine to name a few. A recently paper published summarises about 15 different systems with similar goals. Due to an oversight the abstract was not properly proof-read by a native English speaker - so don't let that put you off, the rest of the paper was properly proof-read. You can access the paper "Decentralized Meta-Data Strategies: Effective Peer-to-Peer Search." here: http://www.neurogrid.net/php/publications.php The full bibtext reference includes a corrected abstract: @article{Joseph03a, author = {Sam Joseph and Takashige Hoshiai}, title = {Decentralized Meta-Data Strategies: Effective Peer-to-Peer Search}, journal = {IEICE Transactions on Communications}, volume = {E86-B}, number = {6}, pages={1740-1753,} year = {2003}, abstract = {The release of the Gnutella file sharing system in Mach 2000 stirred worldwide interest in the Peer-to-Peer (P2P) computing model. Put simply, the P2P model does not depend on a centralised management broker, like those that play an important role in many internet business models. The P2P approach enables peers to discover other peers with desired content or similar interests, without having to go through an intermediary server. It seems clear that the wealth of content made available by peer-to-peer systems such as Gnutella and Freenet have spurred many authors into considering how meta-data might be used to support more effective search in such a distributed environment. This paper reviews a number of these systems and their decentralized meta-data strategies while attempting to identify some common themes.}, URL={http://search.ieice.org/2003/pdf/e86-b_6_1740.pdf} } CHEERS> SAM _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Jul 19 13:17:40 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18217 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19dvKd-0005Vs-Iv for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:17:15 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6JHHFLY021188 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:17:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19dvKd-0005Vf-Eb for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:17:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18211 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19dvKb-0003CA-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:17:13 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19dvKW-0003C5-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:17:08 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19dvKO-0005UG-VX; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:17:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19dvKE-0005Tm-Ex for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:16:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18204 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19dvKC-0003C0-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:16:48 -0400 Received: from mail3.panix.com ([166.84.1.74]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19dvK2-0003Bv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:16:38 -0400 Received: from mailspool3.panix.com (mailspool3.panix.com [166.84.1.78]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0B8982F8 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from panix.com (24-29-148-189.nyc.rr.com [24.29.148.189]) by mailspool3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D968518E2B for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:16:07 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Lucas Gonze To: p2prg@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4CCD2C8AEBBC0743BFE84F2B6A7551EB0CC62F@METRO1-EX1.ad.metro1.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [P2Prg] conference wiki Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam Joseph has created a wiki (at http://www.neurogrid.net/twiki/bin/view/Main/PeerToPeerConferences) for tracking P2P conferences. This needs to reach a certain amount of awareness and involvement to take off, and I want it to take off, so I'm posting here to request that folks chip in. (Why do I want it to take off? Because I'm annoyed with the mismatch between moments when I have work ready to show and times when I find out about places to show it. There's this half finished paper in my desk drawer waiting for a submission date to force me to finish it...) I have added a notice about it to the standard footer for messages on the decentralization list. The footer text I'm using is: Announce or discover P2P conferences on the P2P Conference Wiki at http://www.neurogrid.net/twiki/bin/view/Main/PeerToPeerConferences Bill and Bobby, any chance you'd do something similar with p2prg@ietf.org? Other good things to do would be to blog about it, to put it in your blogroll, or to put a link on any p2p-related sites or pages. Thanks. - Lucas Gonze _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Jul 19 19:58:37 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26151 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19e1ac-00065k-00 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:58:10 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6JNw9Tg023410 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:58:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19e1ab-00065V-Rq for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:58:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26146 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19e1aa-0005Dl-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:58:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19e1aU-0005Di-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:58:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19e1aT-00063w-6F; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:58:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19e1Zl-00063g-5u for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:57:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA26137 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19e1Zj-0005DR-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:57:15 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19e1ZY-0005DH-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:57:04 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6JNui9V021902 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:56:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HIA006TZQIJX2@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:56:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([63.205.184.150]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HIA00ABGPOLLF@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:38:46 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:38:46 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] conference wiki In-reply-to: To: Lucas Gonze Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Message-id: <243B9C8A-BA42-11D7-88B8-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT We'll see what we can do here. It's a good idea. Also, sorry for the silence. Bobby and I are doing things in the background, and we will soon send a message reflecting these efforts. It is mostly about a kickoff meeting. Bill On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 10:16 AM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > I have added a notice about it to the standard footer for messages on > the decentralization list. The footer text I'm using is: > Announce or discover P2P conferences on the P2P Conference Wiki at > http://www.neurogrid.net/twiki/bin/view/Main/PeerToPeerConferences > > Bill and Bobby, any chance you'd do something similar with > p2prg@ietf.org? _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 22 18:55:40 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29992 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f62O-0004HD-2v for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:55:16 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6MMtGqg016435 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:55:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f62N-0004H0-VL for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:55:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29972 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19f62K-00003r-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:55:12 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19f62F-00003h-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:55:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f629-0004GF-2n; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:55:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f61b-0004Fy-8f for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:54:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29949 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:54:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19f61Y-00003V-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:54:24 -0400 Received: from mail9.speakeasy.net ([216.254.0.209] helo=mail.speakeasy.net) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19f61N-00003Q-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:54:13 -0400 Received: (qmail 27616 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2003 22:53:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO limepeer.com) ([216.27.158.74]) (envelope-sender ) by mail9.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 22 Jul 2003 22:53:53 -0000 Message-ID: <3F1DC15A.8060804@limepeer.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:57:30 -0400 From: Adam Fisk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Kirk CC: p2p-irtf Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Off Topic - Gnutella Research Links please References: <3F06A041.8040303@kirks.net> In-Reply-To: <3F06A041.8040303@kirks.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd really recommend taking a look at the work coming out of Stanford at: http://www-db.stanford.edu/peers/ On the general topic of search optimization, keep in mind that newer Gnutella clients, particularly LimeWire, already use a highly scalable search architecture that incorporates many ideas from the academic community. There are still many optimizations to be made, but major steps have been taken -- increased use of indexing, dynamically adjusting queries based on how widely content is distributed, removal of almost all relay traffic, and the use of download meshes to locate multiple locations for files through the download process itself. All of the papers from the IPTPS conferences are of course relevant ( http://iptps03.cs.berkeley.edu/ ), as are the various RFCs published on the GDF -- not to plug our own stuff too much =). Adam Fisk LimeWire LLC Patrick Kirk wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm updating http://rfc-gnutella.sourceforge.net/ and I need some > links to put in the following sections: > > http://rfc-gnutella.sourceforge.net/research/ > > http://rfc-gnutella.sourceforge.net/press/ > > If anyone is aware of recent academic research that relates to > Gnutella or a press story that is not are-hash of the 'RIAA are > mobsters' theme please send me details. > > Papers that I can host without copyright issues would be of particular > interest. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg