From mailman-admin@ietf.org Fri Aug 1 09:32:05 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14239 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19iZbx-0000GI-2n for p2prg-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:06:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:06:21 -0400 Message-ID: <20030801130621.29120.47271.Mailman@www1.ietf.org> Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@www1.ietf.org To: p2prg-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes X-Ack: no Sender: mailman-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: mailman-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: mailman@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. 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Passwords for p2prg-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- p2prg@ietf.org enimbi https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/p2prg/p2prg-archive%40lists.ietf.org From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 2 10:46:36 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15523 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ixe9-0001aA-0Y for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:46:13 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h72EkCS8006076 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:46:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ixe8-0001Zv-I9 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:46:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15504 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ixe6-0003k7-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:46:10 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ixe5-0003k3-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:46:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ixdy-0001Z8-Fr; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:46:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ixdZ-0001Yf-Ec for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:45:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15495 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ixdU-0003k0-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:45:32 -0400 Received: from mail-d.bcc.ac.uk ([144.82.100.24]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ixdU-0003jw-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:45:32 -0400 Received: from pop-c.ucl.ac.uk by mail-d.bcc.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer) with ESMTP; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:45:27 +0100 Received: from socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk (socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk [144.82.100.160]) by pop-c.ucl.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h72EjOK09317 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:45:24 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:45:24 +0100 (BST) From: Michael Rogers To: p2prg Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UCL-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Since nobody else seems keen to attempt a definition of peer-to-peer, I'll have a stab. I think Clay Shirkey was right when he said that peer-to-peer networks are characterised by existing at the edges of the internet. Here's my attempt at expanding on that thought: Peer-to-peer networks are defined by the following characteristics: Each node typically has a different owner. Participation is voluntary. Therefore p2p networks typically depend on commodity hardware, software and connectivity. Nodes are unreliable (compared to, say, corporate web servers). Nodes may behave selfishly or maliciously. This definition is still too broad - would anyone like to help narrow it down? Michael _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 00:42:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA04563 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jXAf-0007ad-JR for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h744g9o2029158 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:42:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jXAf-0007aD-6q for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA04551 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jXAc-000614-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jXAb-00060w-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jXAX-0007Yg-HY; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ho6O-0003k1-PB for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:22:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25958 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:22:30 -0400 (EDT) From: cefn.hoile@bt.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ho6J-0006au-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:22:31 -0400 Received: from saturn.bt.com ([193.113.57.20] helo=cbibipnt05.hc.bt.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ho6J-0006ao-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 06:22:31 -0400 Received: by cbibipnt05.hc.bt.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) id ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:22:13 +0100 Message-ID: <21DA6754A9238B48B92F39637EF307FD0204B50B@i2km41-ukdy.nat.bt.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:21:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [P2Prg] MMAPPS Day Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Some of my colleagues here at BT Exact www.btexact.com are involved in a project called MMAPPS (Market Management of Peer-to-Peer Services) which I expect to be of interest to p2p-hackers, p2prg and decentralization subscribers. (Apologies for crosspost if you don't agree). For general project information see: www.mmapps.org For further information on the MMAPPS Project Day see: www.mmapps.org/events A summary of the project is shown inline below for reference. Please feel free to contact me for further information and I will pass on your enquiry to the relevant member of the team. Cefn http://www.cefn.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MMAPPS (Market Management of Peer-to-Peer Services) is creating generic middleware to support a new class of P2P applications that give peers appropriate incentives to co-operate for the good of the whole peer community. These applications will encourage peers to contribute and will then efficiently allocate that contribution amongst the members of the community. The middleware is generic and supports the definition of a wide variety of incentive schemes which may be based on rewarding good behaviour, or on punishing bad. The schemes can involve payments for contribution but can also be based on rules that enforce a minimum contribution through community sanctions. A key aspect is how peers contribution is accounted for; the middleware provides support for a very wide variety of specific accounting and management schemes, since we have come to the firm conclusion that different P2P applications can require very different trade-offs in terms of the necessary security/scalability/anonymity/robustness of such schemes. The MMAPPS middleware framework has the potential to underlie a very wide range of future P2P applications, and allows easy re-use of many different independently-developed accounting schemes (including traditional micropayment schemes, reputation-based schemes, and many more novel, lighter-weight 'record-based' schemes). The project is now approaching its mid-point (and is in its engineering phase) and so has plenty of results to report. If you would like to be kept informed of the project's progress we recommend you do so either via the MMAPPS Newsletter (issued quarterly) or more directly through participation in the FREE 1-day MMAPPS Project Day we will be holding (as part of NGC/ICQT'03). To receive further information on either the Newsletter or Project Day, please send a mail to cefn.hoile@bt.com, or register yourself directly at the MMAPPS web-site www.mmapps.org. MMAPPS Project partners are: AUEB, BT, ETHZ, Mysterian, TA, TUD and ULANC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Disclaimer: This post represents the views of the author and does not necessarily accurately represent the views of BT. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 01:31:23 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA04561 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jXAf-0007ac-J3 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h744g9cx029163 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:42:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jXAf-0007aC-18 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA04549 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jXAc-000612-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jXAb-00060v-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jXAX-0007YY-9f; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:42:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19f0TN-0006xt-2g for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:58:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19563 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19f0TL-0005zF-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:58:43 -0400 Received: from mojo.pacebutler.com ([67.65.253.253]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19f0T5-0005z6-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:58:27 -0400 Received: by mojo.pacebutler.com (Postfix, from userid 48) id 35A975C07; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:46:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sell Phones" To: p2prg@ietf.org Reply-To: US Chamber Organization: US Chamber MIME-Version: 1.0 List: uschamb List-Owner: List-URL: http://67.65.253.253/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi?l=uschamb List-Software: Mojo Mail 2.7 Precedence: list X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_----------=_1058888574142340"; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: <20030722164603.35A975C07@mojo.pacebutler.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:46:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [P2Prg] ADV: We Buy Used Cell Phones Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_----------=_1058888574142340 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id MAA19566 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We Buy Used Cell Phones Turn Used Cell Phones Into Cash!=20 To find out what we are paying for cell phones Call 800-248-5360, Ext. 708 Or Visit www.pacebutler.com=20 Or E-mail phones@pacebutler.com TODAY! 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--_----------=_1058888574142340-- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 07:17:37 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA22111 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jdKt-0002n1-JM for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:17:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h74BH7ZT010717 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:17:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jdKt-0002mm-Bu for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:17:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA22105 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jdKs-00007H-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:17:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jdKs-00007E-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:17:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jdKn-0002l6-Jm; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:17:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jdKX-0002kp-7f for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:16:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA22100 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jdKW-000077-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:16:44 -0400 Received: from mxsmta03.inithost.com ([209.235.30.105] helo=mxsmta03.dellhost.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jdKW-000073-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:16:44 -0400 Received: from garbagedump.com ([24.128.102.183]) by mxsmta03.dellhost.com (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with ESMTP id <20030804111851.XCDS15355.mxsmta03.dellhost.com@garbagedump.com> for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:18:51 -0400 Message-ID: <3F2E40A4.8040407@garbagedump.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:16:52 -0400 From: C Wegrzyn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030723 Thunderbird/0.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: p2prg References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [P2Prg] Status of this group? Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the "big burst" of activity a month ago nothing has happened. Will the chair (chairs) tell me what is happening? Chuck Wegrzyn _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 09:48:31 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA25832 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jfh0-0007EE-6F for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:48:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h74Dm6Vq027781 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:48:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jfh0-0007E0-2p for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:48:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA25820 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jfgy-0001K9-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:48:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jfgx-0001K6-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:48:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jfgv-0007DC-HV; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:48:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jfgA-0007Bx-FG for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:47:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA25806 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jfg8-0001Jq-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:47:12 -0400 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.198.35]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jfg7-0001Jb-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:47:12 -0400 Received: from power (12-237-193-89.client.attbi.com[12.237.193.89](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003080413464001300g79npe>; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:46:41 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Raymond Gao" To: Subject: FW: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:46:40 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C35A64.EC80CF80" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C35A64.EC80CF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fyi, about definition of P2P -Raymond Gao -----Original Message----- From: Raymond Gao [mailto:raygao@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 10:20 AM To: Michael Rogers Subject: RE: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p Importance: High Hi, I also have some ideas about what is considered as P2P computing. See following. Peer-to-Peer computing defines a model that is based on reciprocal and ad-hoc relationships. In a P2P network, contents could originate from edge peers and are to be repopulated throughout the network based on informal associations and dynamic connections between peers, super-peers, and session-leaders, etc. Relationships between peers are created on the fly and on mutual needs. The relationship tends to be short-term or transient in nature. Identity and trust could be leading considerations for enterprise strength P2P. The clients for P2P interaction could be devices ranging from a PC, to a Unix workstation, to a file server, to a mainframe, to a handheld device, i.e. personal digital assistant (PDA), a cell phone, a wristwatch, or even a MP3 player, etc. Equality and reciprocal statue are more considered fundamental aspects under the P2P model. The general distributed computing definition further says that those endpoints should be hosted on individual environments, separate operating systems (OS) and process threads. I hope my above definition for P2P computing is of some use and can be incorporated into the broad understanding. Best wishes, -Ray Gao > -----Original Message----- > From: p2prg-admin@ietf.org [mailto:p2prg-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > Michael Rogers > Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:45 AM > To: p2prg > Subject: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p > > > Since nobody else seems keen to attempt a definition of peer-to-peer, I'll > have a stab. I think Clay Shirkey was right when he said that > peer-to-peer networks are characterised by existing at the edges of the > internet. Here's my attempt at expanding on that thought: > > Peer-to-peer networks are defined by the following characteristics: > > Each node typically has a different owner. > > Participation is voluntary. Therefore p2p networks typically > depend on commodity hardware, software and connectivity. > > Nodes are unreliable (compared to, say, corporate web servers). > > Nodes may behave selfishly or maliciously. > > This definition is still too broad - would anyone like to help narrow it > down? > > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C35A64.EC80CF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fyi,=20 about definition of P2P
 
 -Raymond Gao
-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Gao=20 [mailto:raygao@comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 = 10:20=20 AM
To: Michael Rogers
Subject: RE: [P2Prg] = Definition of=20 p2p
Importance: High

Hi,

I = also have some=20 ideas about what is considered as P2P computing. See = following.

Peer-to-Peer computing defines a model that is based on = reciprocal=20 and ad-hoc relationships. In a P2P network, contents could originate = from edge=20 peers and are to be repopulated throughout the network based on informal = associations and dynamic connections between peers, super-peers, and=20 session-leaders, etc.

Relationships between peers are created on = the fly=20 and on mutual needs. The relationship tends to be short-term or = transient in=20 nature. Identity and trust could be leading considerations for = enterprise=20 strength P2P.

The clients for P2P interaction could be devices = ranging=20 from a PC, to a Unix workstation, to a file server, to a mainframe, to a = handheld device, i.e. personal digital assistant (PDA), a cell phone, a=20 wristwatch, or even a MP3 player, etc. Equality and reciprocal statue = are more=20 considered fundamental aspects under the P2P model.

The general=20 distributed computing definition further says that those endpoints = should be=20 hosted on individual environments, separate operating systems (OS) and = process=20 threads.

I hope my above definition for P2P computing is = of some=20 use and can be incorporated into the broad understanding.

Best=20 wishes,

-Ray Gao

> -----Original Message-----
> = From:=20 p2prg-admin@ietf.org [mailto:p2prg-admin@ietf.org]On = Behalf=20 Of
> Michael Rogers
> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:45=20 AM
> To: p2prg
> Subject: [P2Prg] Definition of=20 p2p
>
>
> Since nobody else seems keen to attempt a = definition=20 of peer-to-peer, I'll
> have a stab. I think Clay Shirkey was = right when=20 he said that
> peer-to-peer networks are characterised by existing = at the=20 edges of the
> internet. Here's my attempt at expanding on that=20 thought:
>
> Peer-to-peer networks are defined by the = following=20 characteristics:
>
>       Each = node=20 typically has a different owner.
>
> =      =20 Participation is voluntary. Therefore p2p networks typically
>=20       depend on commodity hardware, software = and=20 connectivity.
>
>       Nodes are=20 unreliable (compared to, say, corporate web servers).
>
>=20       Nodes may behave selfishly or=20 maliciously.
>
> This definition is still too broad - would = anyone=20 like to help narrow it
> down?
>
>
>=20 Michael
>
>
>=20 _______________________________________________
> P2prg mailing=20 list
> P2prg@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg=20

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C35A64.EC80CF80-- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 10:17:30 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA28306 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jg92-0008BE-Ra for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:17:05 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h74EH4P2031440 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:17:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jg92-0008B1-Nr for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:17:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA28246 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jg90-0001h0-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:17:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jg90-0001gx-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:17:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jg90-00088i-BK; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:17:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jg8d-000885-2u for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:16:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA28160 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jg8a-0001gH-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:16:36 -0400 Received: from astrolabe.info.ucl.ac.be ([130.104.229.109] helo=info.ucl.ac.be) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jg8a-0001gE-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:16:36 -0400 Received: from info.ucl.ac.be (potemkine [130.104.230.16]) by info.ucl.ac.be (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h74EEVb1021018; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:14:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3F2E6A44.D8A78EE4@info.ucl.ac.be> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:14:28 +0200 From: Valentin Mesaros Organization: INGI/UCL X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: fr-BE, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Rogers CC: p2prg Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there, My name is Valentin Mesaros and I work within an international project called (PEPITO -- PEer-to-Peer: Implementation and TheOry -- http://www.sics.se/pepito). We've been working for one year and a half now on different facets of P2P computing such as: formal models, distributed algorithms and services, and applications. We came up with a possible definition of a P2P system that I thought you might be intrested to know about. Here it is: A Peer-To-Peer system is a distributed system based on resource sharing by direct exchange between nodes and which has at least the following properties: - Decentralization: no single centralized coordination nor administration; - Scalability: the system size can grow arbitrarily while keeping the system performance acceptable; - Adaptation: the system adapts to frequent changes in content and load; - Self-organization: despite frequent arrival and voluntary departure of nodes, (nearly) optimal configurations emerge without manual intervention; - Fault-tolerance: the impact of node/communication failures on the overall system is minimized; - Equal functionality: each node can play the role of client, server, router and cache; - Mobility: nodes do not have fixed IP addresses. Valentin Michael Rogers wrote: > > Since nobody else seems keen to attempt a definition of peer-to-peer, I'll > have a stab. I think Clay Shirkey was right when he said that > peer-to-peer networks are characterised by existing at the edges of the > internet. Here's my attempt at expanding on that thought: > > Peer-to-peer networks are defined by the following characteristics: > > Each node typically has a different owner. > > Participation is voluntary. Therefore p2p networks typically > depend on commodity hardware, software and connectivity. > > Nodes are unreliable (compared to, say, corporate web servers). > > Nodes may behave selfishly or maliciously. > > This definition is still too broad - would anyone like to help narrow it > down? > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 19:42:34 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA15718 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19joxr-0000yk-6P for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:42:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h74Ng7W0003758 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:42:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19joxr-0000yX-2S for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:42:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA15692 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19joxp-0006J6-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:42:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19joxo-0006J3-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:42:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19joxl-0000xg-Bj; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:42:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19joxK-0000xD-FZ for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:41:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA15687 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19joxI-0006Iz-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:41:32 -0400 Received: from h013.c001.snv.cp.net ([209.228.32.127] helo=c001.snv.cp.net) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19joxH-0006Iw-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:41:32 -0400 Received: (cpmta 17307 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2003 16:41:30 -0700 Received: from 209.228.32.125 (HELO mail.web2peer.com.criticalpath.net) by smtp.register-admin.com (209.228.32.127) with SMTP; 4 Aug 2003 16:41:30 -0700 X-Sent: 4 Aug 2003 23:41:30 GMT Received: from [198.4.83.52] by mail.web2peer.com with HTTP; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 To: p2prg@ietf.org From: "Bert" Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p X-Sent-From: bert@web2peer.com Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:41:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: Web Mail 5.5.0-3_sol28 Message-Id: <20030804164130.18526.h011.c001.wm@mail.web2peer.com.criticalpath.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:14:28 +0200, Valentin Mesaros wrote: > We came up with a possible definition of a P2P system that I thought > you > might be intrested to know about. Here it is: > > A Peer-To-Peer system is a distributed system based on resource sharing > by direct exchange > between nodes and which has at least the following properties: > - Decentralization: no single centralized coordination nor > administration; > - Scalability: the system size can grow arbitrarily while keeping the > system performance acceptable; > - Adaptation: the system adapts to frequent changes in content and > load; > - Self-organization: despite frequent arrival and voluntary departure > of > nodes, (nearly) optimal configurations emerge without manual > intervention; > - Fault-tolerance: the impact of node/communication failures on the > overall system is minimized; > - Equal functionality: each node can play the role of client, server, > router and cache; > - Mobility: nodes do not have fixed IP addresses. While each of these properties are often desirable in p2p systems for a variety of reasons, by making them mandatory for the p2p label, you're excluding pretty much every real, working system that most people refer to as p2p without hesitation (e.g. Napster/Seti@HOME which are centrally coordinated, and Gnutella which has scalability limitations). Perhaps the right level of abstraction for a def. of p2p would be end-user level, not the algorithmic/implementation level. One of the things I've found really striking & unique about p2p systems is the empowerment they endow on their participants. This empowerment has a variety of forms, e.g. being able to flout antiquated restrictions on how we listen to music, being able to contribute compute resources to interesting causes, attaining true anonymity, etc. Basically being able to manage one's own data/personal communications/compute resources on much better terms than what was available in the past. Too fluffy, I know, but it beats falling into the peerier-than-thou trap. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 20:56:30 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA16771 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jq7Q-0002jp-1Q for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:56:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h750u4Sb010519 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:56:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jq7P-0002ja-T3 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:56:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA16765 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jq7N-0006bE-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:56:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jq7N-0006bB-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:56:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jq7N-0002j3-Cm; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:56:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jq7M-0002ii-H4 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:56:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA16757 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:55:55 -0400 (EDT) From: ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jq7K-0006b2-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:55:58 -0400 Received: from inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp ([202.33.96.40]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jq7J-0006au-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:55:57 -0400 Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id h750ttVj007117 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:55:55 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id h750ttX8017738 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:55:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from tis2 [133.199.160.66] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id KAA17737 ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:55:55 +0900 Received: from mx4.toshiba.co.jp by tis2.tis.toshiba.co.jp id JAA13212; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:55:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id JAA04295; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:55:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from cactus.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (ydoi@cactus [133.196.12.1]) by isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (8.11.7/8.11.6/1.4) with ESMTP id h750tsb06047 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:55:54 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:55:52 +0900 Message-ID: To: p2prg Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p In-Reply-To: <3F2E6A44.D8A78EE4@info.ucl.ac.be> References: <3F2E6A44.D8A78EE4@info.ucl.ac.be> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 8) (Bryce Canyon) (sparc-sun-solaris2.5.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MY Definition of P2P: Distributed systems that don't fit in Client-Server architecture. Personally I think the word peer-to-peer is too broad to define technically. Maybe we can count ten or more technical characteristics that usually considered P2P, and any one or some set of them make the systems beyond traditional C/S arch. e.g. SETI@Home does client-server like communication, but the processing has done in CLIENT side, not the server. Thus, it goes beyond traditional client(thin-light-poor) and server(big-fat-rich) architecture. Yusuke _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 23:08:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA18679 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jsBE-0005wi-H8 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:08 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h75388pn022857 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:08:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jsBC-0005wa-UC for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA18676 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jsB9-0007AH-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jsB8-0007AE-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jsB7-0005vn-62; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jsAC-0005g2-PJ for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:07:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA18667 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jsA8-0007A3-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:07:00 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jsA7-0007A0-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:06:59 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75370xH026537 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:07:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ400IQMLZNYO@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:06:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([63.205.184.92]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ400D7FLZLRD@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:06:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:54:31 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Status of this group? In-reply-to: <3F2E40A4.8040407@garbagedump.com> To: C Wegrzyn Cc: p2prg Message-id: <237323CE-C6F0-11D7-AFD3-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Chuck, This is Summer and lots of us are taking vacations. Not unusual for this time of year (-: I'm just back myself, and will have one more for the first 15 days of Sept. Then back to work. Those of you who are interested might go to the IEEE P2P conference Sept. 1-3. I'll be there and will give a keynote on P2P Security and Jxta: http://www.ida.liu.se/conferences/p2p/p2p2003/ I see the major activity beginning in late September. I am working on a first meeting for the end of that month but can't promise anything until I work out the details. Don't fret, we are gearing up so to speak ... Bobby and I will have a message to the group in the next two weeks to elaborate our plans. Bill On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 04:16 AM, C Wegrzyn wrote: > Since the "big burst" of activity a month ago nothing has happened. > Will the chair (chairs) tell me what is happening? > > Chuck Wegrzyn _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 4 23:09:26 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA18701 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jsC6-00061M-Bw for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:09:02 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h75392en023138 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:09:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jsC5-000617-W4 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:09:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA18698 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jsC2-0007AZ-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:58 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jsC1-0007AW-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jsC4-0005zS-N9; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:09:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19jsBl-0005zH-GF for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA18691 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jsBh-0007AT-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:37 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19jsBg-0007AQ-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:08:36 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7538bea000547 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:08:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ400ISYM2CYO@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:08:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([63.205.184.92]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ400D71M2BOK@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:08:36 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:08:37 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p In-reply-to: To: ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp Cc: p2prg Message-id: <1B98B8DE-C6F2-11D7-AFD3-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Please look at the P2P charter. This is the definition we are going to use as a basis for our work. Thanks, Bill On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 05:55 PM, ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp wrote: > MY Definition of P2P: > Distributed systems that don't fit in Client-Server architecture. > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Aug 8 08:10:35 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA08845 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l64P-0001vA-Cf for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:10:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h78CA9bg007380 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:10:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l64P-0001ux-9B for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:10:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA08829 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19l64O-0000IY-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:10:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19l64N-0000IU-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:10:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l64H-0001u7-8S; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:10:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l63X-0001qu-Ot for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:09:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA08794 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19l63W-0000IE-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:09:14 -0400 Received: from natsmtp01.webmailer.de ([192.67.198.81] helo=post.webmailer.de) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19l63W-0000IA-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:09:14 -0400 Received: from tu-ilmenau.de (saraswati.prakinf.tu-ilmenau.de [141.24.33.11]) by post.webmailer.de (8.12.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id h78C95JE015849 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:09:06 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <3F339351.4020904@tu-ilmenau.de> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:10:57 +0200 From: Thorsten Strufe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: p2prg@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.74.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by post.webmailer.de id h78C95JE015849 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [P2Prg] Hi Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, my name is Thorsten Strufe and I'm highly interested in P2P stuff. I've been working as a research assistant and lecturer at the Dept. Telematik (Computernetworks and Distributed Systems) of the Technische Universit=E4t Ilmenau, Germany, for the last two years. I'm giving lectures on computer networks, protocol engineering and distributed applications and I am researching resource sharing in (mainly decentralized) distributed systems (cluster/grid computing, p2p etc.) I've been reading this mailing list for a while and may actually start taking part in it! ;-) Regards, Thorsten Strufe - -- Dipl.-Inf. Thorsten Strufe +49(0)3677-694553, CC 442 Fachgebiet Telematik Institut Praktische Informatik=09 Technische Universit=E4t Ilmenau http://www-ia.tu-ilmenau.de/IPI/FGT Sartre:Begehe keine Dummheit zweimal, die Auswahl ist doch gro=DF genug! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/M5NQOQ9e8ojbqFYRAsC5AJsGPKzejWn1GvGhb/2lUkAN7a8FjgCcD+X7 ahi20xRy46YhYSpdiU/z6YA=3D =3DUfnZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Aug 8 09:15:31 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09896 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l75F-0003ya-Vq for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:15:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h78DF5Ii015281 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:15:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l75F-0003yO-PP for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:15:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09890 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:15:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19l75E-0000Y0-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:15:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19l75D-0000Xx-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:15:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l75B-0003xZ-NJ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:15:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19l74M-0003x1-0n for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:14:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09872 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19l74K-0000Xc-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:14:08 -0400 Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.198.35]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19l74J-0000XL-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:14:07 -0400 Received: from power (12-237-193-89.client.attbi.com[12.237.193.89](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003080813133701300kemo0e>; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:13:37 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Raymond Gao" To: "Thorsten Strufe" , Subject: RE: [P2Prg] Hi Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:13:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F339351.4020904@tu-ilmenau.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id JAA09873 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also, check out P2P Journal (http://p2pjournal.com) and there is a call 4 paper going on. -Ray > -----Original Message----- > From: p2prg-admin@ietf.org [mailto:p2prg-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > Thorsten Strufe > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 7:11 AM > To: p2prg@ietf.org > Subject: [P2Prg] Hi > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi, > > my name is Thorsten Strufe and I'm highly interested in P2P stuff. > > I've been working as a research assistant and lecturer at the Dept. > Telematik (Computernetworks and Distributed Systems) of the Technische > Universit=E4t Ilmenau, Germany, for the last two years. > I'm giving lectures on computer networks, protocol engineering and > distributed applications and I am researching resource sharing in > (mainly decentralized) distributed systems (cluster/grid computing, p2p > etc.) > > I've been reading this mailing list for a while and may actually start > taking part in it! ;-) > > Regards, > > Thorsten Strufe > > - -- > Dipl.-Inf. Thorsten Strufe +49(0)3677-694553, CC 442 > Fachgebiet Telematik Institut Praktische Informatik > Technische Universit=E4t Ilmenau http://www-ia.tu-ilmenau.de/IPI/FG= T > Sartre:Begehe keine Dummheit zweimal, die Auswahl ist doch gro=DF genug= ! > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQE/M5NQOQ9e8ojbqFYRAsC5AJsGPKzejWn1GvGhb/2lUkAN7a8FjgCcD+X7 > ahi20xRy46YhYSpdiU/z6YA=3D > =3DUfnZ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Aug 10 15:15:51 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14290 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lvf1-00040r-Gg for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:15:24 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7AJFNJN015421 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:15:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lvf1-00040e-Bg for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:15:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14243 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19lvf0-00010t-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:15:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19lvez-00010p-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:15:21 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lvef-0003yo-C7; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:15:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lvdz-0003wY-2V for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:14:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14122 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19lvdx-00010i-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:14:17 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19lvdw-00010f-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:14:17 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AJEGh4010141 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:14:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJF00GQE43RF1@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:14:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([63.205.184.92]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJF00F0V43QB2@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:14:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:14:25 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p In-reply-to: <20030804164130.18526.h011.c001.wm@mail.web2peer.com.criticalpath.net> To: Bert Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_OG3ikYz+v/PF1YGfn+kfpw)" Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --Boundary_(ID_OG3ikYz+v/PF1YGfn+kfpw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Bert, Your points are well taken. We cannot be religious, and P2P may be totally ad-hoc, or very centralized, or somewhere in between. I've worked with David Anderson of SETI and his team, and know David pretty well. SETI is looking for a less centralized way to redistribute calculations that may terminate on one node, and can then be continued on another. We've discussed this thoroughly, and he likes P2P. They are super busy, and, well, it is not on their current agenda. I plan on pointing David to our research group when we get rolling in Sept. Also, it is clear that Valentin's thoughts are good ones. Just need tweaking. To be honest I like this definition: Charter Peer-to-Peer (P2P) is a way of structuring distributed applications such that the individual nodes have symmetric roles. Rather than being divided into clients and servers each with quite distinct roles (such as Web clients vs. Web servers), in P2P applications a node may act as both a client and a server. P2P systems are in general deployable in an ad-hoc fashion, without requiring centralized management or control. They can be highly autonomous, and can lend themselves to anonymity. Etc ... --- Here, we tried very hard to be neutral. More on this soon, ` Bill On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 04:41 PM, Bert wrote: > On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:14:28 +0200, Valentin Mesaros wrote: >> We came up with a possible definition of a P2P system that I thought >> you >> might be intrested to know about. Here it is: >> >> A Peer-To-Peer system is a distributed system based on resource > sharing >> by direct exchange >> between nodes and which has at least the following properties: >> - Decentralization: no single centralized coordination nor >> administration; >> - Scalability: the system size can grow arbitrarily while keeping the >> system performance acceptable; >> - Adaptation: the system adapts to frequent changes in content and >> load; >> - Self-organization: despite frequent arrival and voluntary departure >> of >> nodes, (nearly) optimal configurations emerge without manual >> intervention; >> - Fault-tolerance: the impact of node/communication failures on the >> overall system is minimized; >> - Equal functionality: each node can play the role of client, server, >> router and cache; >> - Mobility: nodes do not have fixed IP addresses. > > While each of these properties are often desirable in p2p systems for > a variety of reasons, by making them mandatory for the p2p label, > you're excluding pretty much every real, working system that most > people refer to as p2p without hesitation (e.g. Napster/Seti@HOME > which are centrally coordinated, and Gnutella which has scalability > limitations). > > Perhaps the right level of abstraction for a def. of p2p would be > end-user level, not the algorithmic/implementation level. One of the > things I've found really striking & unique about p2p systems is the > empowerment they endow on their participants. This empowerment has a > variety of forms, e.g. being able to flout antiquated restrictions on > how we listen to music, being able to contribute compute resources to > interesting causes, attaining true anonymity, etc. Basically being > able to manage one's own data/personal communications/compute > resources on much better terms than what was available in the past. > > Too fluffy, I know, but it beats falling into the peerier-than-thou > trap. > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg --Boundary_(ID_OG3ikYz+v/PF1YGfn+kfpw) Content-type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Bert, Your points are well taken. We cannot be religious, and P2P may be totally ad-hoc, or very centralized, or somewhere in between. I've worked with David Anderson of SETI and his team, and know David pretty well. SETI is looking for a less centralized way to redistribute calculations that may terminate on one node, and can then be continued on another. We've discussed this thoroughly, and he likes P2P. They are super busy, and, well, it is not on their current agenda. I plan on pointing David to our research group when we get rolling in Sept. Also, it is clear that Valentin's thoughts are good ones. Just need tweaking. To be honest I like this definition: Times New RomanCharterTimes New Roman Peer-to-Peer (P2P) is a way of structuring distributed applications such that the individual nodes have symmetric roles. Rather than being divided into clients and servers each with quite distinct roles (such as Web clients vs. Web servers), in P2P applications a node may act as both a client and a server. P2P systems are in general deployable in an ad-hoc fashion, without requiring centralized management or control. They can be highly autonomous, and can lend themselves to anonymity. Etc ... --- Here, we tried very hard to be neutral. More on this soon, ` Bill On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 04:41 PM, Bert wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:14:28 +0200, Valentin Mesaros wrote: We came up with a possible definition of a P2P system that I thought you might be intrested to know about. Here it is: A Peer-To-Peer system is a distributed system based on resource sharing by direct exchange between nodes and which has at least the following properties: - Decentralization: no single centralized coordination nor administration; - Scalability: the system size can grow arbitrarily while keeping the system performance acceptable; - Adaptation: the system adapts to frequent changes in content and load; - Self-organization: despite frequent arrival and voluntary departure of nodes, (nearly) optimal configurations emerge without manual intervention; - Fault-tolerance: the impact of node/communication failures on the overall system is minimized; - Equal functionality: each node can play the role of client, server, router and cache; - Mobility: nodes do not have fixed IP addresses. While each of these properties are often desirable in p2p systems for a variety of reasons, by making them mandatory for the p2p label, you're excluding pretty much every real, working system that most people refer to as p2p without hesitation (e.g. Napster/Seti@HOME which are centrally coordinated, and Gnutella which has scalability limitations). Perhaps the right level of abstraction for a def. of p2p would be end-user level, not the algorithmic/implementation level. One of the things I've found really striking & unique about p2p systems is the empowerment they endow on their participants. This empowerment has a variety of forms, e.g. being able to flout antiquated restrictions on how we listen to music, being able to contribute compute resources to interesting causes, attaining true anonymity, etc. Basically being able to manage one's own data/personal communications/compute resources on much better terms than what was available in the past. Too fluffy, I know, but it beats falling into the peerier-than-thou trap. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg --Boundary_(ID_OG3ikYz+v/PF1YGfn+kfpw)-- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Aug 10 22:03:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA21761 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m21a-0005cy-3U for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:03:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7B236gJ021632 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:03:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m21Z-0005cp-Sy for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:03:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA21747 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m21W-0002HT-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:03:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m21W-0002HQ-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:03:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m21V-0005c1-9b; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:03:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m20c-0005aT-N7 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:02:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA21734 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m20Z-0002HJ-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:02:03 -0400 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net ([204.127.202.64]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m20Z-0002HG-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:02:03 -0400 Received: from power (12-237-193-89.client.attbi.com[12.237.193.89](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2003081102012901600gu7lae>; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:01:29 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Raymond Gao" To: "Bill Yeager" , "Bert" Cc: Subject: RE: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:01:29 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C35F82.91D4DEA0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C35F82.91D4DEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another thing we can discuss is how P2P's service resolution & routing model compares to the DNS (domain name server) model. -Ray -----Original Message----- From: p2prg-admin@ietf.org [mailto:p2prg-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Bill Yeager Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 2:14 PM To: Bert Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p Hi Bert, Your points are well taken. We cannot be religious, and P2P may be totally ad-hoc, or very centralized, or somewhere in between. I've worked with David Anderson of SETI and his team, and know David pretty well. SETI is looking for a less centralized way to redistribute calculations that may terminate on one node, and can then be continued on another. We've discussed this thoroughly, and he likes P2P. They are super busy, and, well, it is not on their current agenda. I plan on pointing David to our research group when we get rolling in Sept. Also, it is clear that Valentin's thoughts are good ones. Just need tweaking. To be honest I like this definition: Charter Peer-to-Peer (P2P) is a way of structuring distributed applications such that the individual nodes have symmetric roles. Rather than being divided into clients and servers each with quite distinct roles (such as Web clients vs. Web servers), in P2P applications a node may act as both a client and a server. P2P systems are in general deployable in an ad-hoc fashion, without requiring centralized management or control. They can be highly autonomous, and can lend themselves to anonymity. Etc ... --- Here, we tried very hard to be neutral. More on this soon, ` Bill On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 04:41 PM, Bert wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:14:28 +0200, Valentin Mesaros wrote: We came up with a possible definition of a P2P system that I thought you might be intrested to know about. Here it is: A Peer-To-Peer system is a distributed system based on resource sharing by direct exchange between nodes and which has at least the following properties: - Decentralization: no single centralized coordination nor administration; - Scalability: the system size can grow arbitrarily while keeping the system performance acceptable; - Adaptation: the system adapts to frequent changes in content and load; - Self-organization: despite frequent arrival and voluntary departure of nodes, (nearly) optimal configurations emerge without manual intervention; - Fault-tolerance: the impact of node/communication failures on the overall system is minimized; - Equal functionality: each node can play the role of client, server, router and cache; - Mobility: nodes do not have fixed IP addresses. While each of these properties are often desirable in p2p systems for a variety of reasons, by making them mandatory for the p2p label, you're excluding pretty much every real, working system that most people refer to as p2p without hesitation (e.g. Napster/Seti@HOME which are centrally coordinated, and Gnutella which has scalability limitations). Perhaps the right level of abstraction for a def. of p2p would be end-user level, not the algorithmic/implementation level. One of the things I've found really striking & unique about p2p systems is the empowerment they endow on their participants. This empowerment has a variety of forms, e.g. being able to flout antiquated restrictions on how we listen to music, being able to contribute compute resources to interesting causes, attaining true anonymity, etc. Basically being able to manage one's own data/personal communications/compute resources on much better terms than what was available in the past. Too fluffy, I know, but it beats falling into the peerier-than-thou trap. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C35F82.91D4DEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another thing we can discuss is how P2P's service resolution = &=20 routing model compares to the DNS (domain name server) model.=20 -Ray
-----Original Message-----
From: = p2prg-admin@ietf.org=20 [mailto:p2prg-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Bill = Yeager
Sent:=20 Sunday, August 10, 2003 2:14 PM
To: Bert
Cc:=20 p2prg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of=20 p2p

Hi Bert,

Your points are well taken. We = cannot=20 be religious, and P2P may be totally ad-hoc, or very centralized, or = somewhere=20 in between. I've worked with David Anderson of SETI and his team, and = know=20 David pretty well.

SETI is looking for a less centralized way = to=20 redistribute calculations that may terminate on one node, and can then = be=20 continued on another. We've discussed this thoroughly, and he likes = P2P. They=20 are super busy, and, well, it is not on their current agenda. I plan = on=20 pointing David to our research group when we get rolling in = Sept.

Also,=20 it is clear that Valentin's thoughts are good ones. Just need = tweaking. To be=20 honest I like this definition:

Charter=20

Peer-to-Peer (P2P) is a way of structuring distributed = applications=20 such that the individual nodes have symmetric roles. Rather than being = divided=20 into clients and servers each with quite distinct roles (such as Web = clients=20 vs. Web servers), in P2P applications a node may act as both a client = and a=20 server. P2P systems are in general deployable in an ad-hoc fashion, = without=20 requiring centralized management or control. They can be highly = autonomous,=20 and can lend themselves to anonymity.

Etc ...
---
Here, = we=20 tried very hard to be neutral.

More on this soon,

` = Bill


On Monday, = August=20 4, 2003, at 04:41 PM, Bert wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:14:28 +0200, Valentin Mesaros = wrote:
We came up with a possible definition of a P2P system = that I=20 thought
you
might be intrested to know about. Here it = is:

A=20 Peer-To-Peer system is a distributed system based on=20 resource
sharing
by direct exchange
between nodes and which has at = least the=20 following properties:
- Decentralization: no single centralized = coordination nor
administration;
- Scalability: the system = size can=20 grow arbitrarily while keeping the
system performance = acceptable;
-=20 Adaptation: the system adapts to frequent changes in content=20 and
load;
- Self-organization: despite frequent arrival and=20 voluntary departure
of
nodes, (nearly) optimal = configurations emerge=20 without manual
intervention;
- Fault-tolerance: the impact = of=20 node/communication failures on the
overall system is = minimized;
-=20 Equal functionality: each node can play the role of client,=20 server,
router and cache;
- Mobility: nodes do not have = fixed IP=20 addresses.

While each of these properties are = often=20 desirable in p2p systems for
a variety of reasons, by making them = mandatory for the p2p label,
you're excluding pretty much every = real,=20 working system that most
people refer to as p2p without = hesitation (e.g.=20 Napster/Seti@HOME
which are centrally coordinated, and Gnutella = which has=20 scalability
limitations).

Perhaps the right level of = abstraction=20 for a def. of p2p would be
end-user level, not the=20 algorithmic/implementation level. One of the
things I've found = really=20 striking & unique about p2p systems is the
empowerment they = endow on=20 their participants. This empowerment has a
variety of forms, e.g. = being=20 able to flout antiquated restrictions on
how we listen to music, = being=20 able to contribute compute resources to
interesting causes, = attaining=20 true anonymity, etc. Basically being
able to manage one's own=20 data/personal communications/compute
resources on much better = terms than=20 what was available in the past.

Too fluffy, I know, but it = beats=20 falling into the peerier-than-thou
trap.=20

_______________________________________________
P2prg = mailing=20 = list
P2prg@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg
=
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C35F82.91D4DEA0-- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Aug 10 22:40:31 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22227 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m2bN-0006iD-Fw for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:40:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7B2e5Jf025795 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:40:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m2bN-0006hy-3g for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:40:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22212 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m2bJ-0002OV-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:40:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m2bJ-0002OS-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:40:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m2bJ-0006g9-4V; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:40:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m2ai-0006fe-Sw for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:39:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22209 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m2af-0002OI-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:39:21 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m2ae-0002OF-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:39:20 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7B2dLh4013475 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:39:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJF001AWOPKHW@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:39:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([63.205.184.92]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJF00B7TOPIPF@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:39:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:39:26 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p In-reply-to: To: raygao@comcast.net Cc: Bill Yeager , Bert , p2prg@ietf.org Message-id: <061C3B78-CBA5-11D7-8FC3-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_2Px0DAm1aIe7hPonj9a/QA)" Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --Boundary_(ID_2Px0DAm1aIe7hPonj9a/QA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Ray, If you read a little further in the charter, then you will see that this is also there: To this end, the research group also emphasizes the following near-term goals: classifying the P2P problem space (both currently, and as it evolves) into those problems for which there are existing solutions and those for which solutions require longer-term development; developing descriptive model(s) of peer-node organization whose interpretation can be applied to these solutions; articulating the scope as to what sort of P2P applications the models encompass and what sort they do not; exploring interfaces to IETF protocols to realize the models; We can look at DNSEXT to see if in fact what you mention below can be incorporated in an extended DNS. Bill On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 07:01 PM, Raymond Gao wrote: > Another thing we can discuss is how P2P's service resolution & routing > model compares to the DNS (domain name server) model. -Ray > --Boundary_(ID_2Px0DAm1aIe7hPonj9a/QA) Content-type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Ray, If you read a little further in the charter, then you will see that this is also there: To this end, the research group also emphasizes the following near-term goals: classifying the P2P problem space (both currently, and as it evolves) into those problems for which there are existing solutions and those for which solutions require longer-term development; developing descriptive model(s) of peer-node organization whose interpretation can be applied to these solutions; articulating the scope as to what sort of P2P applications the models encompass and what sort they do not; exploring interfaces to IETF protocols to realize the models; We can look at DNSEXT to see if in fact what you mention below can be incorporated in an extended DNS. Bill On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 07:01 PM, Raymond Gao wrote: Arial0000,0000,FFFFAnother thing we can discuss is how P2P's service resolution & routing model compares to the DNS (domain name server) model. -Ray --Boundary_(ID_2Px0DAm1aIe7hPonj9a/QA)-- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 11 00:09:30 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23413 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m3zU-0000Vg-94 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:09:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7B494HS001959 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:09:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m3zU-0000VW-0i for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:09:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23407 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m3zR-0002hF-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:09:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m3zR-0002hC-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:09:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m3zQ-0000Ui-GE; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:09:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m3yh-0000UW-L0 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:08:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23393 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m3yf-0002h1-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:08:13 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.167]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m3ye-0002gy-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:08:12 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211]) by kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:07:33 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:59:06 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77A9@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p Thread-Index: AcNfsd1KF3suurZ+QIO+3W7LhqZlWgAABBpw From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" To: "Bill Yeager" , Cc: "Bert" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2003 04:07:33.0289 (UTC) FILETIME=[171FC990:01C35FBE] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > We can look at DNSEXT to see if in fact what=20 > you mention below can be incorporated in an=20 > extended DNS.=20 Not extending DNS.. A better reference resolution model=20 to reduce the overloading pain in DNS using proposed=20 distributed object location routing systems. To realize such a system, we have to first concentrate on the issue of naming. If we can use semantically=20 meaningless names -like cryptographic keys, we don't=20 have to politicize the whole DNS delegation ( and there=20 by avoid problems like "cyber squatting" etc..) Also, we=20 have issues with *referential integrity* in current DNS=20 system. Current structured overlay proposals can help=20 us here.=20 IPTPS conference papers have some thoughts about using P2P for DNS type of resolution etc. But, there are lot=20 more avenues to concentrate on... >> Another thing we can discuss is how P2P's service=20 >> resolution & routing model compares to the DNS=20 >> (domain name server) model. better way is to list the *shortcomings* of DNS and=20 see, what P2P has to offer... _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 11 05:26:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11159 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m8wJ-0003kr-Ow for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:26:08 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7B9Q7kN014429 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:26:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m8wJ-0003ke-KH for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:26:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11155 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:26:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m8wG-0004DS-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:26:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m8wF-0004DP-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:26:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m8wE-0003jj-8r; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:26:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m8w7-0003jT-Cv for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:25:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11150 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m8w4-0004DM-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:25:52 -0400 Received: from natsmtp01.webmailer.de ([192.67.198.81] helo=post.webmailer.de) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m8w3-0004DJ-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:25:51 -0400 Received: from tu-ilmenau.de (saraswati.prakinf.tu-ilmenau.de [141.24.33.11]) by post.webmailer.de (8.12.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id h7B9PiIK009948; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:25:45 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <3F376181.8050601@tu-ilmenau.de> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:27:29 +0200 From: Thorsten Strufe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Yeager CC: p2prg Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p References: <1B98B8DE-C6F2-11D7-AFD3-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <1B98B8DE-C6F2-11D7-AFD3-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.74.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by post.webmailer.de id h7B9PiIK009948 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, | Please look at the P2P charter. This is the definition we are going to | use as a basis for our work. Wouldn't it be nice to have a definition at hand which is a little shorter? (_and_ a little less prose?) I think that a definition shouldn't be too broad and that it shouldn't take the application/user/ownership into account too much. There should be no dev-goals in the definition.(?) (Scalability, Fault-Tolerance etc. Most P2P-Systems aren't actually scalable (and scalability doesn't make the term p2p more exact..), so it's a goal to make the systems scalable and not an explanation...) In my opinion something like: Peer-to-Peer-Systems are highly dynamic decentraliced distributed systems, in which every node performs, or at least is able to perform, the same tasks. In different links each node may either act as a client or a server. would do the job. That way we'd get rid of people who are calling SETI@home P2P ;-D, while leaving enough room for different application domains such as collaborative work, cycle-sharing, file-sharing (*sigh*) etc. Hm. Mobility would be a missing point, but would I come away with the explanation, that mobility is just a certain occurence of dynamics? Main(?) research areas: * Message forwarding/routing (Flooding/Routing Indices/DHT/...) * Lookup/discovery (implementation of the namespace: ~ registry(dht/supernodes)/flat(flooding)/...) * NAT-Traversal (or: IPv6, please!) * Security-Issues (privacy, authentication * Content Distribution (Multicast?) * QoS in P2P(?) * Interoperability(??) The people researching mobile ad-hoc networks (manets) actually have done quite some work, which might be of interest. Loads of work has actually been done on lookup as well (as I had to realize, when I started writing a paper on Lookup in P2P-Systems), as most of the ideas/constraints for old fashioned lookup apply to P2P-Systems as well... My 5ct. All the best, Thorsten - -- Dipl.-Inf. Thorsten Strufe +49(0)3677-694553, CC 442 Fachgebiet Telematik Institut Praktische Informatik=09 Technische Universit=E4t Ilmenau http://www-ia.tu-ilmenau.de/IPI/FGT Sartre:Begehe keine Dummheit zweimal, die Auswahl ist doch gro=DF genug! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/N2GBOQ9e8ojbqFYRAvyVAJ9IXw/TmUzLUmAdKpfpBdjbdacXogCfay2K vX0NtCFGhFarTtNCAh/KsnA=3D =3DCfc7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 11 05:44:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11552 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m9Dh-0004UO-Bl for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:44:05 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7B9i5Xe017249 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:44:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m9Dh-0004U2-4V for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:44:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11533 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m9Dd-0004LG-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:44:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m9Dc-0004LD-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:44:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m9Dd-0004Se-VG; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:44:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19m9DM-0004Ro-8E for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:43:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11510 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m9DI-0004KV-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:43:40 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.167]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19m9DI-0004KS-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:43:40 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211]) by kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 11 Aug 2003 04:43:41 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 04:43:39 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77AC@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: [P2Prg] Definition of p2p Thread-Index: AcNf6pmBNFOKdqDhTliGPAl/tHQB0wAAKEDg From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" To: "Thorsten Strufe" , "Bill Yeager" Cc: "p2prg" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2003 09:43:41.0246 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C29CDE0:01C35FED] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >The people researching mobile ad-hoc networks (manets)=20 >actually have done quite some work, which might be of=20 >interest. The people researching peer to peer networks (P2P) actually=20 have done quite some work, which might be of interest. MANETS, in its present form, suffer from scalability problems=20 (number of nodes.) Also, don't seem to provide a better open interface for many server-side applications (like hosting a=20 web server etc..) Since, the assumptions behind P2P and MANET seems closer (like=20 node flux, decentralization, auto-configuration), MANETS can=20 use DHTs for scaling to large number of nodes and use generic APIs for creating diverse applications.=20 so, what MANETS have to offer for P2P?=20 _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 11 12:28:43 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22022 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mFWs-0002CQ-Kd for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:19 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7BGSI7X008448 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mFWs-0002CB-Fa for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21998 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mFWe-0006zh-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mFWe-0006ze-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mFWa-00029u-Ow; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mFVj-00027Z-SG for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:27:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21966 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:26:48 -0400 (EDT) From: cefn.hoile@bt.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mFVV-0006zL-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:26:53 -0400 Received: from saturn.bt.com ([193.113.57.20] helo=cbibipnt08.hc.bt.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mFVV-0006zI-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:26:53 -0400 Received: by cbibipnt08.hc.bt.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) id ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:26:37 +0100 Message-ID: <21DA6754A9238B48B92F39637EF307FD0204B5A5@i2km41-ukdy.nat.bt.com> To: saq66@umkc.edu, thorsten.strufe@tu-ilmenau.de, William.Yeager@Sun.COM Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:26:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , I'm not sure that DHTs and MANETS have a very good fit. This is because DHTs generally require that every node can address every other node, in principle. In a MANET direct addressing is only possible for individuals within broadcast range of each other, which may or may not be the individuals to whom you need to forward your message for DHT routing. Many design problems are in common between the two cases, and perhaps APIs could converge in some respects. At least in the case of lookup, I think the implementation details of the two cases force the solutions to diverge, sorry. Keen to hear if you've found a way round this, though ;) We could try it out with SWAN (our hash-based routing mechanism, see http://www.cefn.com/cefn/index.php?inventor), and the MANET simulator we have. Cefn http://www.cefn.com -----Original Message----- From: Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) [mailto:saq66@umkc.edu] Sent: 11 August 2003 10:44 To: Thorsten Strufe; Bill Yeager Cc: p2prg Subject: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P >The people researching mobile ad-hoc networks (manets) >actually have done quite some work, which might be of >interest. The people researching peer to peer networks (P2P) actually have done quite some work, which might be of interest. MANETS, in its present form, suffer from scalability problems (number of nodes.) Also, don't seem to provide a better open interface for many server-side applications (like hosting a web server etc..) Since, the assumptions behind P2P and MANET seems closer (like node flux, decentralization, auto-configuration), MANETS can use DHTs for scaling to large number of nodes and use generic APIs for creating diverse applications. so, what MANETS have to offer for P2P? _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 11 18:53:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10017 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mLXJ-0008H9-6Q for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7BMr95x031811 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mLXI-0008H0-Kh for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10012 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mLXF-0002y5-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mLXF-0002y1-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mLXA-0008F0-Rz; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:53:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mLWJ-0008Em-Kv for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:52:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10006 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mLWG-0002xy-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:52:04 -0400 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.192.128] helo=cs.ucla.edu) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mLWF-0002xv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:52:03 -0400 Received: from cs.ucla.edu (rdwarrior.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.192.88]) by cs.ucla.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BMpVd2010560; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scottm@cs.ucla.edu) Message-ID: <3F381E19.8060802@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:52:09 -0700 From: Scott Michel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" CC: Bill Yeager , raygao@comcast.net, Bert , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P References: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77A9@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> In-Reply-To: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77A9@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, I'll bite... Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) wrote: >>We can look at DNSEXT to see if in fact what >>you mention below can be incorporated in an >>extended DNS. > > > Not extending DNS.. A better reference resolution model > to reduce the overloading pain in DNS using proposed > distributed object location routing systems. DNS is useful for bootstrapping. In P2P overlay construction, it allows us to get a list of initial candidates and iteratively or recursively building the overlay. Delegation is also a strong mechanism for making things scale to large numbers of participants. We know this because it works ("rough consensus, working code" and that code, despite the occaisional defect, works well.) We also know, from operational experience, that delegation works well administratively, since responsibility for a zone is pushed to the zone's administrative and technical contact. Intermediate caching is another strong mechanism that's been proven to have benefits, although Balakrishnan's SIGCOMM IMW'01 paper takes issue with this point. What doesn't map well is DNS' iterative search, the source of the pain that you mention. At some point in DNS' implied overlay, a resolver has to iteratively query zone servers. In the DHT systems, iteration is avoided by transparent forwarding. > To realize such a system, we have to first concentrate > on the issue of naming. If we can use semantically > meaningless names -like cryptographic keys, we don't > have to politicize the whole DNS delegation ( and there > by avoid problems like "cyber squatting" etc..) Also, we > have issues with *referential integrity* in current DNS > system. Current structured overlay proposals can help > us here. No debate here: naming is important. DNS and the canonical P2P applications are the few applications where a name is known a priori and can be "semantically meaningless". However, semantically meaningless names lose prefix information (e.g., higher level DNS zone information). This can have a negative impact on routing and forwarding in a P2P system. >>>Another thing we can discuss is how P2P's service >>>resolution & routing model compares to the DNS >>>(domain name server) model. > > > better way is to list the *shortcomings* of DNS and > see, what P2P has to offer... DNS has a fixed message format, max message size... which can be fixed by a new infrastructure. But I wouldn't jump to the contusion that a brand new P2P-based infrastructure for doing host name resolution just to add new features is necessary or desireable. After all, you need to bootstrap the P2P overlay or create an implied overlay like DNS does. -scooter _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Aug 14 02:20:42 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA00931 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nBT5-0001Nr-LL for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:20:15 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7E6KFsR005313 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:20:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nBT3-0001Nc-E3 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:20:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA00871 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nBSz-000030-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:20:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nBSz-00002v-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:20:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nBSs-0001MH-D5; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:20:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nBSZ-0001LQ-Vq for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:19:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA00815 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nBSW-00002e-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:19:40 -0400 Received: from laime.cs.uchicago.edu ([128.135.11.94]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nBSV-000029-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:19:39 -0400 Received: from olive (12-224-67-215.client.attbi.com [12.224.67.215]) by laime.cs.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 53AFA6BD60; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:19:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <018801c3622c$7b82f950$6401a8c0@olive> From: "Adriana Iamnitchi" To: Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:22:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [P2Prg] CFP: 4th Workshop on Global and Peer-to-Peer Computing Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please accept our apologies if you receive this message multiple times. ------------------------------------------------------------------ CALL FOR PAPERS Fourth International Scientific Workshop on GLOBAL and PEER-TO-PEER Computing "From Theory to Practice" (http://www.lri.fr/~fci/GP2PC-04.htm) organized at the IEEE/ACM International Symposium on Cluster Computing and the Grid 2004 IEEE/ACM CCGRID 2004 Chicago, USA, April 2004 In cooperation with the IEEE Task Force on Cluster Computing (TFCC) ------------------------------------------------------------------- SCOPE Global computing systems aim to harness Internet-connected resources at a global scale. A global computing platform can be built in a pre-defined, stable, organized fashion (more like today's Grids) or can be self-organizing, ad-hoc, decentralized, like in Peer-to-Peer systems. Supporting computation on such systems raises a novel set of questions. Because of size, autonomy and the high volatility of their resources, Global Computing and P2P platforms provide the opportunity to revisit major fields of distributed computing: protocols, infrastructures, security, fault tolerance, scheduling, performance, services, applications, incentives for cooperation, etc. Moreover, new issues concerning installation, utilization, flexibility and scalability become more relevant than ever. Authors are invited to submit original, unpublished work describing current research and novel ideas in the area of Global and Peer-to-Peer Computing as well as experiences with the deployment of Global and Peer-to-Peer Computing technologies. Papers whose contributions are supported by experimental or theoretical evaluations are strongly encouraged. TOPICS Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: * Global Computing and Peer-to-Peer platforms * P2P Merging / Interoperability with Grids (OGSA/I) * Software technology evaluations: Web Services, Grid services * Middleware, programming models, environments and toolkits * Protocols for resource management (discovery, reservation, scheduling, monitoring) * Economic considerations of resource usage (protocols, accounting) * Storage in Global Computing infrastructures (strategies, protocols) * Performance measurements, benchmarking, and modeling of Global Computing and Peer-to-Peer systems * Security * Result certification (detection/tolerance of corrupted results) * Parallel computing on large-scale distributed systems * Compute & I/O driven applications * Global and peer-to-peer computing applications (programmed from scratch, ported from sequential or parallel implementations, adaptations to fit a global computing environment) PAPER SUBMISSION We invite you to submit a full paper of up to 8 pages in IEEE format (10pt font, two-columns, single-spaced). Please visit the workshop web page at http://GP2PC.lri.fr for paper submission procedure. IMPORTANT DATES Papers submission: November 25, 2003 Notification to authors: January 15, 2004 Final version of papers due: February 15, 2004 PROGRAM COMMITTEE (in construction): David Anderson, University of Berkeley, SETI@home project, USA Franck Cappello, INRIA/LRI, Paris-South University, France Henri Casanova, SDSC, California, USA Andrew Chien, UCSD, California, USA Adriana Iamnitchi, University of Chicago, USA Olivier Richard, INRIA ID, Grenoble, France Alexander Reinefeld, Zuze Institute Berlin, Germany Arnold Rosenberg, DCS, Massachusetts, USA Mitsuhisa Sato, CCP, University of Tsukuba, Japan Domenico Talia, DEIS, University of Calabria, Italy Bernard Traversat, SUN, Jxta, USA ... WORKSHOP CHAIRS (and contact for info) Franck Cappello INRIA/LRI, Paris-South University France, fci@lri.lri.fr Adriana Iamnitchi University of Chicago USA anda@cs.uchicago.edu ________________ Adriana Iamnitchi University of Chicago http://www.cs.uchicago.edu/~anda (773) 834-4416 _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 16 00:06:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA22317 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nsKN-000452-5B for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:06:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7G467cY015684 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:06:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nsKM-00044t-GI for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:06:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA22312 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:06:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nsKK-00010w-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:06:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nsKJ-00010s-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:06:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nsKG-00043d-VO; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:06:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mhxp-0006YP-UJ for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:50:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02119 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mhxm-0004OF-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:49:58 -0400 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mhxl-0004Nv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:49:57 -0400 Received: from phys-d3-ha21sca-1 ([129.145.155.163]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CMnSkZ009575 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sun.COM (obssa.red.iplanet.com [192.18.190.198]) by ha21sca-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJJ0022X3EFO6@ha21sca-mail1.sfbay.sun.com> for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:49:27 -0700 From: Kuldipsingh Pabla Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P To: p2prg@ietf.org Reply-to: kuldeep@jxta.org Message-id: <3F396EF7.3A1ECB17@Sun.COM> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79C-CCK-MCD [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.9 sun4u) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary=------------FB3B6BED32B55EBAD27A3A11 X-Accept-Language: en Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FB3B6BED32B55EBAD27A3A11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Other reason for MANET to be not highly scalable is that MANET is designed and optimized for the WiFi(or RF) devices. These devices drain more battery power while transmitting messages to other devices. Considering the fact, the MANET algorithms have tried to minimize the transmission of messages while routing packets. More over, MANET is for pure ad hoc networks. -Kuldeep --------------FB3B6BED32B55EBAD27A3A11 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Re: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Re: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P" Return-path: Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJG00IUKR3ZBT@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for jsoto@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:28:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sunmail2.sfbay.sun.com (sunmail2.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.149.246.180]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BGSkV7021041; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by sunmail2.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BGSjq11454; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.sun.com (relay2.sun.com [150.143.103.24] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BGSiOw024986; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms02es.sun.com ([150.143.103.140] [150.143.103.140]) by relay2i.sun.com with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:28:44 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms01bms.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms01bms.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.150]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:28:44 +0000 (Z) Received: from mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms02bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.20]) by mms01bms.sun.com with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:28:43 +0000 (Z) Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.6.20] [132.151.6.20]) by relay2.sun.com with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:28:42 +0000 (Z) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mFWa-00029s-Nk; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:28:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mFVj-00027Z-SG for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:27:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21966 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mFVV-0006zL-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:26:53 -0400 Received: from saturn.bt.com ([193.113.57.20] helo=cbibipnt08.hc.bt.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19mFVV-0006zI-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:26:53 -0400 Received: by cbibipnt08.hc.bt.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) id ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:26:37 +0100 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:26:12 +0100 From: cefn.hoile@bt.com Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org To: saq66@umkc.edu, thorsten.strufe@tu-ilmenau.de, William.Yeager@Sun.COM Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Errors-to: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Message-id: <21DA6754A9238B48B92F39637EF307FD0204B5A5@i2km41-ukdy.nat.bt.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group Original-recipient: rfc822;juan.soto@sun.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm not sure that DHTs and MANETS have a very good fit. This is because DHTs generally require that every node can address every other node, in principle. In a MANET direct addressing is only possible for individuals within broadcast range of each other, which may or may not be the individuals to whom you need to forward your message for DHT routing. Many design problems are in common between the two cases, and perhaps APIs could converge in some respects. At least in the case of lookup, I think the implementation details of the two cases force the solutions to diverge, sorry. Keen to hear if you've found a way round this, though ;) We could try it out with SWAN (our hash-based routing mechanism, see http://www.cefn.com/cefn/index.php?inventor), and the MANET simulator we have. Cefn http://www.cefn.com -----Original Message----- From: Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) [mailto:saq66@umkc.edu] Sent: 11 August 2003 10:44 To: Thorsten Strufe; Bill Yeager Cc: p2prg Subject: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P >The people researching mobile ad-hoc networks (manets) >actually have done quite some work, which might be of >interest. The people researching peer to peer networks (P2P) actually have done quite some work, which might be of interest. MANETS, in its present form, suffer from scalability problems (number of nodes.) Also, don't seem to provide a better open interface for many server-side applications (like hosting a web server etc..) Since, the assumptions behind P2P and MANET seems closer (like node flux, decentralization, auto-configuration), MANETS can use DHTs for scaling to large number of nodes and use generic APIs for creating diverse applications. so, what MANETS have to offer for P2P? _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg --------------FB3B6BED32B55EBAD27A3A11-- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 16 07:19:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA09443 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nz5P-0003nN-E9 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:19:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7GBJ7sE014590 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:19:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nz5P-0003nF-6X for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:19:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA09435 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nz5O-0002ra-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:19:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nz5O-0002rX-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:19:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nz5J-0003mQ-6U; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:19:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19nz4m-0003mF-HD for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:18:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA09432 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nz4m-0002rR-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:18:28 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto3.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.160]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19nz4l-0002rN-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:18:27 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto3.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:18:26 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:18:22 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77AE@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Thread-Index: AcNgJU6DWhKWr7CJRFuowJ24YA0lNwDug0oQ From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" To: Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Aug 2003 11:18:26.0399 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CD80EF0:01C363E8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I'm not sure that DHTs and MANETS have a very good fit.=20 DHT is not something new. The concept was originally introduced=20 in landmark hierarchy for ad-hoc networks. Back in 1980s, LH was=20 proposed by Paul Francis for self-configuring an ad-hoc network into a routing hierarchy. It employs a function (assured dest binding- ADB) to map the identifier to address; which is=20 essentially a DHT. Some recent MANET routing proposals achieve=20 scalability by way of landmark routing (e.g.LANMAR).=20 The MANET WG has adapted two routing proposals (AODV/DSR);which=20 suffers from scalability problems. DHT can provide indirection service to achieve scalability.=20 >This is because DHTs generally require that every node can address=20 >every other node, in principle. In a MANET direct addressing=20 >is only possible for individuals within broadcast range of each other, >which may or may not be the individuals to whom you need to forward=20 >your message for DHT routing. DHT based overlay routing delivers requests for a given key to the=20 node _currently_ responsible for that key. So, assumption is that=20 their is NO permanent mapping of keys to nodes. Similar to multi-hop=20 hierarchical routing done in MANETS, routing proceeds in a multi-hop=20 fashion. Also, nodes maintain address for only a small set of=20 neighbors, and routes messages to the neighbor that is closer to the=20 destination. So, the base message forwarding principle is same for=20 both DHT-based and MANET-based multi-hop routing. > Keen to hear if you've found a way round this, though ;) We could=20 > try it out with SWAN (our hash-based routing mechanism, see=20 > http://www.cefn.com/cefn/index.php?inventor), and the MANET=20 > simulator we have. Purdue has simulation results and work-in-progress prototype for DHT=20 (pastry) + DSR =3D Dynamic P2P source routing.=20 _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 16 09:08:28 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10689 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19o0mp-0007KT-O5 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:08:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7GD83dF028167 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:08:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19o0mp-0007KE-Ja for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:08:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10685 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19o0mo-0003BN-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:08:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19o0mn-0003BK-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:08:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19o0mm-0007JP-Ed; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:08:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19o0mI-0007EI-6u for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:07:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA10682 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19o0mG-0003BH-00 for P2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:07:28 -0400 Received: from ns.gbnet.net ([194.70.126.10] ident=qmailr) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19o0mG-0003BD-00 for P2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:07:28 -0400 Received: (qmail 27848 invoked by uid 118); 16 Aug 2003 13:07:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:07:26 +0100 From: Sean Bennett To: P2prg@ietf.org Message-ID: <20030816130726.GA3320@gbnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: [P2Prg] Control of Content in a P2P network Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-8-101-1398.jsp Some of you may have seen this. I realise this is a technical research group but the corrorally of control (assuming a system is created in which control is possible) must be the implementation of policy of which documents/files/objects are propogated. Creating a P2p system that cannot be censored may appear the obvious soloution - based on our _western_ ideas of culture and freedom. But it may not be the best soloution for all cultures. Control (trusted 3rd parties, distributed approval , etc.) can always be turned off for a given instalation. Just MHO. Sean -- Sean Bennett. E Pluribus Unum _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 16 14:48:31 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16011 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19o65v-0001IG-Bj for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:48:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7GIm7S9004972 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:48:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19o65v-0001I7-6m for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:48:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16004 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19o65s-0004QC-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:48:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19o65r-0004Q9-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:48:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19o65o-0001HI-Tz; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:48:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19o659-0001H5-8Q for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:47:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16001 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19o656-0004Q5-00 for P2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:47:16 -0400 Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com ([194.73.73.111]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19o655-0004Q2-00 for P2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:47:15 -0400 Received: from host81-129-32-212.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.129.32.212] helo=enterprise.kirksnet) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 19o64v-00048m-00; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:47:05 +0100 Received: from voyager.kirksnet ([192.168.0.25] helo=kirks.net) by enterprise.kirksnet with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19o64u-0000DG-00; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:47:04 +0100 Message-ID: <3F3E7C28.2090106@kirks.net> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:47:04 +0100 From: Patrick Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030723 Thunderbird/0.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Bennett CC: P2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Control of Content in a P2P network References: <20030816130726.GA3320@gbnet.net> In-Reply-To: <20030816130726.GA3320@gbnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sean Bennett wrote: > http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-8-101-1398.jsp > > Some of you may have seen this. > > I realise this is a technical research group but the corrorally of control > (assuming a system is created in which control is possible) must be the > implementation of policy of which documents/files/objects are propogated. > > Creating a P2p system that cannot be censored may appear the obvious soloution > - based on our _western_ ideas of culture and freedom. > > But it may not be the best soloution for all cultures. > > Control (trusted 3rd parties, distributed approval , etc.) can always be turned > off for a given instalation. > > Just MHO. > > Sean I followed the link and frankly I'm shocked that I find attitides like this being promoted in a technical mailing list. Does that article really represent your views? You are saying that freedom is only for "Western" people and offering it to people in Saudi Arabia is "cultural imperialism, with its stress on US values and free trade." Just in case some poor Westerner is caught in your little web you say "Control (trusted 3rd parties, distributed approval , etc.) can always be turned off for a given instalation." Sean, I suggest you not call ideas like this "humble opinions" - its not humble at all. Its the old "Them darkies just are not mature enough to vote" argument. Even if you sincerely believe it, it still _stinks_. Slightly off topic here but even as a non-American I must admit to amusement at the arrogance of an author who descibes the USA as not having a legitimate government while defending the shenagigans of the Saudi regime. The sad truth is that the Saudi royal family has _no_ interest in governing America. Apart from your friends in the House of Saud, who are the dictators you feel Americans could aspire to be governed by? (Idi Amin is dead so you can't choose him). _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Aug 19 13:54:34 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26256 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pAgH-0000wE-Nw for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:08 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7JHs56N003606 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pAgH-0000w5-JT for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26242 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pAgF-0004XI-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pAgE-0004XA-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pAgC-0000ud-Dj; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pAfo-0000uA-IC for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:53:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26173 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pAfm-0004WQ-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:53:34 -0400 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.192.128] helo=cs.ucla.edu) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pAfl-0004TB-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:53:33 -0400 Received: from cs.ucla.edu (rdwarrior.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.192.88]) by cs.ucla.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JHqMhT083648; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scottm@cs.ucla.edu) Message-ID: <3F426404.3010001@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:53:08 -0700 From: Scott Michel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" CC: p2prg@ietf.org, francis@cs.cornell.edu Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P References: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77AE@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> In-Reply-To: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77AE@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can go back even further into hypercube routing. DHTs advance science by routing on digit groups instead of single bits. -scooter Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) wrote: >>I'm not sure that DHTs and MANETS have a very good fit. > > > DHT is not something new. The concept was originally introduced > in landmark hierarchy for ad-hoc networks. Back in 1980s, LH was > proposed by Paul Francis for self-configuring an ad-hoc network > into a routing hierarchy. It employs a function (assured dest > binding- ADB) to map the identifier to address; which is > essentially a DHT. Some recent MANET routing proposals achieve > scalability by way of landmark routing (e.g.LANMAR). > > The MANET WG has adapted two routing proposals (AODV/DSR);which > suffers from scalability problems. DHT can provide indirection > service to achieve scalability. > > > > >>This is because DHTs generally require that every node can address >>every other node, in principle. In a MANET direct addressing >>is only possible for individuals within broadcast range of each other, >>which may or may not be the individuals to whom you need to forward >>your message for DHT routing. > > > DHT based overlay routing delivers requests for a given key to the > node _currently_ responsible for that key. So, assumption is that > their is NO permanent mapping of keys to nodes. Similar to multi-hop > hierarchical routing done in MANETS, routing proceeds in a multi-hop > fashion. Also, nodes maintain address for only a small set of > neighbors, and routes messages to the neighbor that is closer to the > destination. So, the base message forwarding principle is same for > both DHT-based and MANET-based multi-hop routing. > > > > >>Keen to hear if you've found a way round this, though ;) We could >>try it out with SWAN (our hash-based routing mechanism, see >>http://www.cefn.com/cefn/index.php?inventor), and the MANET >>simulator we have. > > > Purdue has simulation results and work-in-progress prototype for DHT > (pastry) + DSR = Dynamic P2P source routing. > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Aug 19 23:26:35 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23571 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pJbt-0003VR-JK for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:26:10 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7K3Q9lX013478 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:26:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pJbt-0003VJ-DX for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:26:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23563 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pJbr-0003a0-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:26:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pJbr-0003Zw-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:26:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pJbk-0003UJ-Uo; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:26:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pJbY-0003Tu-C6 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:25:48 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23529 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:25:43 -0400 (EDT) From: ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pJbW-0003Za-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:25:46 -0400 Received: from inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp ([202.33.96.40]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pJbV-0003ZV-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:25:45 -0400 Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id h7K3PcIv029008 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:25:38 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id h7K3Pcm5009925 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:25:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from tis2 [133.199.160.66] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id NAA09918 ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:25:37 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp by tis2.tis.toshiba.co.jp id MAA27742; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:25:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id MAA16078; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:25:36 +0900 (JST) Received: from cactus.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (ydoi@cactus [133.196.12.1]) by isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (8.11.7/8.11.6/1.4) with ESMTP id h7K3PZb07125 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:25:35 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:25:34 +0900 Message-ID: To: p2prg@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 8) (Bryce Canyon) (sparc-sun-solaris2.5.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [P2Prg] Call For Papers: Peer-to-Peer Internetworking Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , (Sorry for multi-posting.) This is CFP for Peer-to-Peer Internetworking Workshop in Tokyo. Best Regards, ------ DOI, Yusuke Toshiba Corp., Research and Development Center Network and Computer Systems Laboratory ----- Call for Papers P2PI 2004 (SAINT2004 International Workshop on Peer-to-Peer Internetworking) co-located with the IEEE/IPSJ Symposium on Applications and the Internet January 26-27, 2004 Tokyo, Japan Important Dates Paper Submission: Oct 7, 2003 Notification: Oct 20, 2003 Final Manuscript: Nov 1, 2003 Workshop Date: Jan 26-27, 2004 Theme: Internetworking Overlays Over the past years, a number of peer-to-peer networks have appeared, some with prominent success. However, the possibility and potential of interconnecting these peer-to-peer networks have not been explored until recently. Peer-to-peer internetworking is going to redefine the way peer-to-peer networks are constructed. Since no single peer-to-peer network can serve universal purposes, functional decomposition among multiple peer-to-peer networks has to occur as peer-to-peer internetworking framework is defined. Peer-to-peer internetworking will facilitate the introduction of heterogeneity, internationalization, monetary infrastructure, and various security mechanisms. This workshop is the occasion to address this theme widely, and is intended to share latest research results and exchange ideas, thereby promoting research activities in this area. Topics include, but are not limited to: - Interconnection of overlay networks - Heterogeneous overlay networks - DHT and other scalable lookup algorithms - Overlay networks and monetary transaction - Internationalization in P2P applications - Security in overlay internetworks - Resource discovery and location in overlay internetworks Papers should be sent via e-mail to no later than October 7th. Acceptable document formats are PostScript and PDF. Please include "P2PI SUBMISSION" in the subject of e-mail, in order to facilitate anti-spam classification. Please note that, according to the SAINT2004 organizing committee, the workshop is subject to cancellation when enough paper presentations are not accepted. Organizers: Yusuke Doi (Toshiba Corporation, Japan) ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp Youki Kadobayashi, Ph.D. (Nara Institue of Science and Technology, Japan) youki-k@is.aist-nara.ac.jp Yuichi Kawasaki (Jnutella.org, Japan) Hiroyuki Morikawa, Ph.D. (University of Tokyo, Japan) Fumio Teraoka, Ph.D. (Keio University, Japan) _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Aug 20 12:56:27 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19441 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pWFg-0006w7-Jr for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:56:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7KGu4la026659 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:56:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pWFg-0006v2-F3 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:56:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19432 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pWFe-0003YT-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:56:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pWFe-0003YQ-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:56:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pWFd-0006u2-4Q; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:56:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pWFE-0006t0-GE for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:55:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19402 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pWFC-0003Y8-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:55:34 -0400 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pWFC-0003Xy-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:55:34 -0400 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7KGsvDV009379; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phys-mpkmaila (phys-mpkmaila.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.18.131]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7KGsuUu011654; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roam (roam.Eng.Sun.COM [152.70.8.108]) by mpkmail.eng.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 1 (built Apr 2 2002)) with SMTP id <0HJX00070GBJG8@mpkmail.eng.sun.com>; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:54:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Yeager To: p2prg@ietf.org Cc: William.Yeager@Eng.Sun.COM, bobby@cs.umd.edu Reply-to: Bill Yeager Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: [P2Prg] Research Group plans Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, Our research group will now begin to formulate the tasks we wish to begin and to work on over the next year, and we invite you to carefully read through the charter document. The charter evolved from almost one year of discussions with IETF area directors, the IETF chair and the IAB chair. After that, Vern Paxson worked with us for about seven months (things do move slowly because almost all of us have full time commitments to consider first) to write our RG's charter. It incorporates a great deal from the earlier IETF discussions. The charter sets directions for our research, and certainly, these directions are not restricted to what is said in the charter. Here, we tried to hit upon the fundamental P2P issues such as: "peer-node identity, naming, configuration and capabilities; P2P network organization and scope; resource discovery, content lookup, search and distribution; request routing and operation in the presence of mobility; adaptation to expected peer-node instability; monitoring of P2P operations; security of P2P systems involving reputation-based trust for ad-hoc systems or more centralized, CA-like approaches." We do want to form research tracks in each of these areas if possible. We cannot do everything at once, and will have to prioritize our list given both the interests of the RG members and the RG size. Thus, we set some near-term goals: "classifying the P2P problem space (both currently, and as it evolves) into those problems for which there are existing solutions and those for which solutions require longer-term development; developing descriptive model(s) of peer-node organization whose interpretation can be applied to these solutions; articulating the scope as to what sort of P2P applications the models encompass and what sort they do not; understanding the unique security-related problems and opportunities P2P systems pose; exploring interfaces to IETF protocols to realize the models; and offering input to the IETF as a starting place for possible working groups to standardize new protocols that are useful in building P2P applications." The last line is extremely important. We must first carefully explore interfaces to current IETF protocols, and how, if necessary, these protocols may be extended to suit our needs before we look at standardizing any new protocols. Since all of us cannot substantially contribute to all areas, perhaps it is a good idea to think about to which areas each of you would like to contribute. We can then form sub-research groups directed at specific tasks. Finally, we would like to thank those among you who have so enthusiastically discussed what is on their mind with respect to P2P on our list this Summer. The chairs were somewhat silent, and this was for at least two reasons: First, we wanted to "laisser faire." Just let things happen to see what is on your minds. We certainly desire to be open to possibilities beyond what we've included in our charter. Second, it is Summer and we all need time to relax, and regroup for the coming "research" year which for us begins in September. We are looking forward to coming months and hope that the enthusiasm continues. We do plan an initial meeting within the next two months. The details are being worked out right now. Thanks again for your interest! Bill Yeager and Bobby Bhattacharjee _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Aug 21 02:46:38 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19632 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pjD1-0006Sa-Vj for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:13 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7L6kB4e024819 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pjD0-0006SA-Sj for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19624 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pjCx-0006uf-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pjCw-0006uX-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pjCr-0006Pl-6E; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pjBv-0006Gp-9W for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:45:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19575 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pjBr-0006tn-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:44:59 -0400 Received: from exodus.cs.ccu.edu.tw ([140.123.103.6]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pjBq-0006te-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:44:58 -0400 Received: from bluebox (Noah.cs.ccu.edu.tw [140.123.105.14]) by Exodus.cs.ccu.edu.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7L6nTqX094477 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:49:30 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <008701c367af$b9bdfe80$0e697b8c@bluebox> From: "cjwu" To: References: <21DA6754A9238B48B92F39637EF307FD0204B5A5@i2km41-ukdy.nat.bt.com> Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:41:34 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I consider that MANETs is a special case is P2P overlay In the multi-hop MANETs, any node need neighbors to forward the packets. A node only know the neighbor nodes, not all node in this MANETs. In peer-to-peer overlay, it is very difficult for a node knows all nodes in this overlay. (but, a paper assume that it is work [1]) So that a node in p2p routing table is limited... [1] One Hop Lookups for Peer-to-Peer Overlays [ pdf | ps ] Anjali Gupta, Barbara Liskov, Rodrigo Rodrigues. Workshop on Hot Topics in Operating Systems (HotOS IX), Lihue, Hawai, May 2003. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Cc: <> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:26 AM Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P > I'm not sure that DHTs and MANETS have a very good fit. > > This is because DHTs generally require that every node can address every > other node, in principle. In a MANET direct addressing is only possible > for individuals within broadcast range of each other, which may or may > not be the individuals to whom you need to forward your message for DHT > routing. > > Many design problems are in common between the two cases, and perhaps > APIs could converge in some respects. At least in the case of lookup, I > think the implementation details of the two cases force the solutions to > diverge, sorry. > > Keen to hear if you've found a way round this, though ;) We could try it > out with SWAN (our hash-based routing mechanism, see > http://www.cefn.com/cefn/index.php?inventor), and the MANET simulator we > have. > > Cefn > http://www.cefn.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) [mailto:saq66@umkc.edu] > Sent: 11 August 2003 10:44 > To: Thorsten Strufe; Bill Yeager > Cc: p2prg > Subject: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P > > > > >The people researching mobile ad-hoc networks (manets) > >actually have done quite some work, which might be of > >interest. > > The people researching peer to peer networks (P2P) actually > have done quite some work, which might be of interest. > > MANETS, in its present form, suffer from scalability problems > (number of nodes.) Also, don't seem to provide a better open interface > for many server-side applications (like hosting a > web server etc..) > > Since, the assumptions behind P2P and MANET seems closer (like > node flux, decentralization, auto-configuration), MANETS can > use DHTs for scaling to large number of nodes and use generic APIs for > creating diverse applications. > > > so, what MANETS have to offer for P2P? > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Aug 21 03:34:18 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19631 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pjD1-0006SZ-VW for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:13 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7L6kBh4024820 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pjD0-0006S9-RD for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19622 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pjCx-0006ue-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pjCw-0006uW-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pjCt-0006QZ-4w; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:46:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pjCT-0006P3-AZ for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:45:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19592 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pjCP-0006tv-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:45:33 -0400 Received: from exodus.cs.ccu.edu.tw ([140.123.103.6]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pjCO-0006ts-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:45:32 -0400 Received: from bluebox (Noah.cs.ccu.edu.tw [140.123.105.14]) by Exodus.cs.ccu.edu.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7L6oEqX094488 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:50:14 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <008e01c367af$d4148c40$0e697b8c@bluebox> From: "cjwu" To: References: <21DA6754A9238B48B92F39637EF307FD0204B5A5@i2km41-ukdy.nat.bt.com> Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:45:10 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I consider that MANETs is a special case is P2P overlay. In the multi-hop MANETs, any node need neighbors to forward packets. A node only know the neighbor nodes, not all node in this MANETs. In peer-to-peer overlay, it is very difficult for a node knows all nodes in this overlay. (but, a paper assume that it is work [1]) So that a node in p2p routing table is limited... [1] "One Hop Lookups for Peer-to-Peer Overlays" Anjali Gupta, Barbara Liskov, Rodrigo Rodrigues. Workshop on Hot Topics in Operating Systems (HotOS IX), Lihue, Hawai, May 2003. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Cc: <> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:26 AM Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P > I'm not sure that DHTs and MANETS have a very good fit. > > This is because DHTs generally require that every node can address every > other node, in principle. In a MANET direct addressing is only possible > for individuals within broadcast range of each other, which may or may > not be the individuals to whom you need to forward your message for DHT > routing. > > Many design problems are in common between the two cases, and perhaps > APIs could converge in some respects. At least in the case of lookup, I > think the implementation details of the two cases force the solutions to > diverge, sorry. > > Keen to hear if you've found a way round this, though ;) We could try it > out with SWAN (our hash-based routing mechanism, see > http://www.cefn.com/cefn/index.php?inventor), and the MANET simulator we > have. > > Cefn > http://www.cefn.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) [mailto:saq66@umkc.edu] > Sent: 11 August 2003 10:44 > To: Thorsten Strufe; Bill Yeager > Cc: p2prg > Subject: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P > > > > >The people researching mobile ad-hoc networks (manets) > >actually have done quite some work, which might be of > >interest. > > The people researching peer to peer networks (P2P) actually > have done quite some work, which might be of interest. > > MANETS, in its present form, suffer from scalability problems > (number of nodes.) Also, don't seem to provide a better open interface > for many server-side applications (like hosting a > web server etc..) > > Since, the assumptions behind P2P and MANET seems closer (like > node flux, decentralization, auto-configuration), MANETS can > use DHTs for scaling to large number of nodes and use generic APIs for > creating diverse applications. > > > so, what MANETS have to offer for P2P? > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Aug 21 06:45:30 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27591 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pmwE-0000ij-QD for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:45:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7LAj6jB002765 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:45:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pmwE-0000iW-LZ for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:45:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27575 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pmwA-0001Rx-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:45:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pmwA-0001Ru-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:45:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pmw9-0000gP-Qi; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:45:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pmva-0000fY-Ur for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:44:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27565 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pmvW-0001Rn-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:44:22 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.167]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pmvW-0001Rk-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:44:22 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211]) by kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:44:23 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:44:22 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77B7@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: Re: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P Thread-Index: AcNn0S6W2DqhdWEXTzKa4FeYzbxYqA== From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2003 10:44:23.0316 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F231540:01C367D1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >What doesn't map well is DNS' iterative search, the source of the pain = that=20 >you mention. At some point in DNS' implied overlay, a resolver has to=20 >iteratively query zone servers. In the DHT systems, iteration is = avoided by=20 >transparent forwarding. The one you mention, iterative search and the associated resolution delay is a *performance* pain. huitema et all study and caida's strip=20 charts illustrate that point. But, I was talking about *architectural*=20 overload on the DNS system - which can be avoided using a P2P model.=20 But, yes!!! It is way too ambitious... >No debate here: naming is important. DNS and the canonical P2P = applications=20 >are the few applications where a name is known a priori and can be=20 >"semantically meaningless". However, semantically meaningless names = lose=20 >prefix information (e.g., higher level DNS zone information). This can = have=20 >a negative impact on routing and forwarding in a P2P system. http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/projects/sfr/ >> Not extending DNS.. A better reference resolution model=20 >> to reduce the overloading pain in DNS using proposed=20 >> distributed object location routing systems. > >DNS is useful for bootstrapping. In P2P overlay construction, it allows = us=20 >to get a list of initial candidates and iteratively or recursively = building=20 >the overlay. [...] > But I wouldn't jump to the contusion that a brand new P2P-based=20 > infrastructure for doing host name resolution just to add new=20 > features is necessary or desireable.=20 agreed. But, their is more... Recently, we invest a lot in overlay = networks. Since, backbone providers have no incentive to deploy stuff, researchers = has started to consider Internet as a "black-box" and design informed = overlay architectures at the application-level. After few years, we will have = too many overlays - either host based (end point multicast etc) or=20 infrastructured (chord etc..) So, each of them will create a new name = space=20 + indirection and depend on DNS for resolution/interaction between = overlays. This is really a major burden on DNS, not to mention the fact that we = have=20 done enough already (RFC 3467). Hence, it is very necessary to think = about=20 new approaches to solve this problem. probably, we should move from DNS *lookup" to "search and update with crawlers". A half-baked solution might be google can store all bindings=20 and all local resolution can be re-directed to google for lookup.=20 _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Aug 21 10:42:07 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08340 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pqbe-0001hu-RN for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:40:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7LEe6hx006563 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:40:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pqbe-0001hm-Kx for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:40:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08283 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pqbc-00044Y-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:40:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pqbb-00044U-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:40:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pqbZ-0001gd-SX; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:40:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pqbW-0001fz-Il for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:39:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08270 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pqbU-00044G-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:39:56 -0400 Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net ([204.127.202.56]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pqbT-00043q-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:39:55 -0400 Received: from power (12-237-193-89.client.attbi.com[12.237.193.89](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20030821143924012009n1r9e>; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:39:24 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Raymond Gao" To: Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:39:23 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77B7@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just want to give my 2 cents worth here. Because DNS is an established standard, it will be rather difficult to completely overturn it. Rewriting it could cause complete rebuilt of Internet infrastructure. Rather, a complimentary model between P2P and existing DNS standard has best chance of succeeding. DNS is hierarchial vs. P2P is ad-hoc. In fact, routers (PGP/BGP protocol) in DNS are pretty reliable. If we can add dynamic discovery capability to it, somewhat like DHCP, it will be pretty nice. Here, I mean, using PKI (key or token exchange) as the basis for assigning new ID and address by rendezvous server to a new peer who is joining the horde. Furthermore, it's inefficient for a simple peer to build a complete table of the network and listing of all peers. That should reside on the more power rendezvous or pack-manager/coordinator servers. A peer should have as much information it needs. Building an extensive listing for the whole network may have high-overhead, particularly if the network has hundreds, thousands, or maybe millions of peers. Similarly, DHT is a good idea, although syncing it across many servers will be a time & resource intensive task with dependence on the underlying network. -ray > -----Original Message----- > From: p2prg-admin@ietf.org [mailto:p2prg-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 5:44 AM > To: p2prg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P > > > >What doesn't map well is DNS' iterative search, the source of > the pain that > >you mention. At some point in DNS' implied overlay, a resolver has to > >iteratively query zone servers. In the DHT systems, iteration is > avoided by > >transparent forwarding. > > The one you mention, iterative search and the associated resolution > delay is a *performance* pain. huitema et all study and caida's strip > charts illustrate that point. But, I was talking about *architectural* > overload on the DNS system - which can be avoided using a P2P model. > But, yes!!! It is way too ambitious... > > > > >No debate here: naming is important. DNS and the canonical P2P > applications > >are the few applications where a name is known a priori and can be > >"semantically meaningless". However, semantically meaningless names lose > >prefix information (e.g., higher level DNS zone information). > This can have > >a negative impact on routing and forwarding in a P2P system. > > http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/projects/sfr/ > > > >> Not extending DNS.. A better reference resolution model > >> to reduce the overloading pain in DNS using proposed > >> distributed object location routing systems. > > > >DNS is useful for bootstrapping. In P2P overlay construction, it > allows us > >to get a list of initial candidates and iteratively or > recursively building > >the overlay. > [...] > > > But I wouldn't jump to the contusion that a brand new P2P-based > > infrastructure for doing host name resolution just to add new > > features is necessary or desireable. > > > agreed. But, their is more... Recently, we invest a lot in > overlay networks. > Since, backbone providers have no incentive to deploy stuff, > researchers has > started to consider Internet as a "black-box" and design informed overlay > architectures at the application-level. After few years, we will have too > many overlays - either host based (end point multicast etc) or > infrastructured (chord etc..) So, each of them will create a new > name space > + indirection and depend on DNS for resolution/interaction > between overlays. > This is really a major burden on DNS, not to mention the fact > that we have > done enough already (RFC 3467). Hence, it is very necessary to > think about > new approaches to solve this problem. > > > probably, we should move from DNS *lookup" to "search and update with > crawlers". A half-baked solution might be google can store all bindings > and all local resolution can be re-directed to google for lookup. > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@irtf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Aug 21 14:16:57 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18737 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ptz5-0001vC-Kc for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:32 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7LIGVv8007376 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ptz5-0001us-9z for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18624 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ptz1-0006mn-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:28 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ptyr-0006mO-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:17 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ptyi-0001mF-SO; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ptwg-0001NK-Oe for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:14:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16269 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ptSI-0006AL-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:42:38 -0400 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.192.128] helo=cs.ucla.edu) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ptSH-0006A9-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:42:37 -0400 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu (l8vppv4m7msr5ec3@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs.ucla.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LHg7hT007267; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scottm@mordred.cs.ucla.edu) Received: (from scottm@localhost) by mordred.cs.ucla.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7LHg6C0007266; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:42:06 -0700 From: Scott Michel To: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P Message-ID: <20030821174206.GA7141@mordred.cs.ucla.edu> References: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77B7@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77B7@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 05:44:22AM -0500, Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) wrote: > delay is a *performance* pain. It's not "a" but "THE" performance pain. Also, "overloading" is ambiguous; is it functional or traffic overloading? Functional overloading is quite true, there's a lot being stuffed into DNS because it works well as a simple database query system that's very easy to configure (and configure incorrectly.) Traffic overloading is a harder case to make. > >DNS is useful for bootstrapping. In P2P overlay construction, it allows us > >to get a list of initial candidates and iteratively or recursively building > >the overlay. > [...] > > > But I wouldn't jump to the contusion that a brand new P2P-based > > infrastructure for doing host name resolution just to add new > > features is necessary or desireable. > > agreed. But, their is more... Recently, we invest a lot in overlay networks. > Since, backbone providers have no incentive to deploy stuff, researchers has > started to consider Internet as a "black-box" and design informed overlay > architectures at the application-level. After few years, we will have too > many overlays - either host based (end point multicast etc) or > infrastructured (chord etc..) So, each of them will create a new name space > + indirection and depend on DNS for resolution/interaction between overlays. > This is really a major burden on DNS, not to mention the fact that we have > done enough already (RFC 3467). Hence, it is very necessary to think about > new approaches to solve this problem. I took your original point to mean "replace DNS", but here, you're arguing that DNS needs augmenting, which I happen to agree with. Nonetheless, with whatever overlays or overlay+infrastructures get used, there's still the need to treat the peer network topology construction as an individual function. Part of what you're proposing is using an overlay to bootstrap overlays and the need for interoperation between overlays. I'm not entirely convinced that semantically meaningless names solve much more than sociopolitical problems, as the SFR page points out. If another layer of name indirection is needed, there needs to be additional benefit. For example, where do the mappings between a reference and an object get established for random objects? Is there always a one-to-one mapping between an object and its reference? What happens if the object changes, does the reference stay the same or change? How do references move or become aliases for an original reference? > probably, we should move from DNS *lookup" to "search and update with > crawlers". A half-baked solution might be google can store all bindings > and all local resolution can be re-directed to google for lookup. What happens when there is one name-to-many reference resolution? Consider GRID workflow setup in which more than one available resource can satisfy a stage in the workflow. -scooter to the same semantically free reference. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Aug 21 20:35:35 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11157 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pztU-0001Qg-Si for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7M0Z8kO005488 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pztU-0001QR-O7 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11116 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pztS-00048V-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pztS-00048S-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pztO-0001PS-U3; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19pztD-0001OP-Ra for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:34:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11065 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pztB-000480-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:34:49 -0400 Received: from [69.49.238.2] (helo=mail.opentransfer.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19pztA-00047x-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:34:49 -0400 Received: (qmail 8494 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2003 00:34:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO garbagedump.com) (24.128.102.183) by mail.opentransfer.com with SMTP; 22 Aug 2003 00:34:18 -0000 Message-ID: <3F456524.1020002@garbagedump.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:34:44 -0400 From: "C. Wegrzyn" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4a) Gecko/20030718 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, af, sq, ar, ar-dz, ar-bh, ar-eg, ar-iq, ar-jo, ar-kw, ar-lb, ar-ly, ar-ma, ar-om, ar-qa, ar-sa, ar-sy, ar-tn, ar-ae, ar-ye, hy, ast, eu, be, bs, bg, ca, zh, zh-cn, zh-hk, zh-sg, zh-tw, hr, cs, da, nl, nl-be, undefined, en-au, en-bz, en-ca, en-ie, en-jm, en-nz, en-ph, en-za, en-tt, en-gb, undefined, en-zw, eo, et, fo, fi, fr, fr-be, fr-ca, fr-fr, fr-lu, fr-mc, fr-ch, gl, ka, de, de-at, de-de, de-li, de-lu, de-ch, el, he, hu, is, id, ga, it, it-ch, ja, ko, ko-kp, ko-kr, lv, lt, mk-mk, ms, no, nb, nn, pl, pt, pt-br, ro, ru, gd, sr, sk, sl, es, es-ar, es-bo, es-cl, es-co, es-cr, es-do, es-ec, es-sv, es-gt, es-hn, es-mx, es-ni, es-pa, es-py, es-pe, es-pr, es-es, es-uy, es-ve, sv, sv-fi, th, tr, uk, vi, cy, xh, yi, zu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Michel CC: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P References: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77B7@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> <20030821174206.GA7141@mordred.cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030821174206.GA7141@mordred.cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure I agree with all of this. DNS is not a mechanism for finding things other than addresses using symbolic names. This is clearly the case even with things like ENUM. Searching is better left to other devices. While Google comes to mind it isn't the best mechanism for searching for communities of people or skills. Chuck Wegrzyn Scott Michel wrote: >On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 05:44:22AM -0500, Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) wrote: > > >>delay is a *performance* pain. >> >> > >It's not "a" but "THE" performance pain. > >Also, "overloading" is ambiguous; is it functional or traffic overloading? >Functional overloading is quite true, there's a lot being stuffed into DNS >because it works well as a simple database query system that's very easy >to configure (and configure incorrectly.) Traffic overloading is a harder >case to make. > > > >>>DNS is useful for bootstrapping. In P2P overlay construction, it allows us >>>to get a list of initial candidates and iteratively or recursively building >>>the overlay. >>> >>> >>[...] >> >> >> >>>But I wouldn't jump to the contusion that a brand new P2P-based >>>infrastructure for doing host name resolution just to add new >>>features is necessary or desireable. >>> >>> >>agreed. But, their is more... Recently, we invest a lot in overlay networks. >>Since, backbone providers have no incentive to deploy stuff, researchers has >>started to consider Internet as a "black-box" and design informed overlay >>architectures at the application-level. After few years, we will have too >>many overlays - either host based (end point multicast etc) or >>infrastructured (chord etc..) So, each of them will create a new name space >>+ indirection and depend on DNS for resolution/interaction between overlays. >>This is really a major burden on DNS, not to mention the fact that we have >>done enough already (RFC 3467). Hence, it is very necessary to think about >>new approaches to solve this problem. >> >> > >I took your original point to mean "replace DNS", but here, you're arguing >that DNS needs augmenting, which I happen to agree with. Nonetheless, with >whatever overlays or overlay+infrastructures get used, there's still the >need to treat the peer network topology construction as an individual function. >Part of what you're proposing is using an overlay to bootstrap overlays >and the need for interoperation between overlays. > >I'm not entirely convinced that semantically meaningless names solve much more >than sociopolitical problems, as the SFR page points out. If another layer of >name indirection is needed, there needs to be additional benefit. For example, >where do the mappings between a reference and an object get established for >random objects? Is there always a one-to-one mapping between an object and >its reference? What happens if the object changes, does the reference stay >the same or change? How do references move or become aliases for an original >reference? > > > >>probably, we should move from DNS *lookup" to "search and update with >>crawlers". A half-baked solution might be google can store all bindings >>and all local resolution can be re-directed to google for lookup. >> >> > >What happens when there is one name-to-many reference resolution? Consider >GRID workflow setup in which more than one available resource can satisfy >a stage in the workflow. > > >-scooter >to the same semantically free reference. > >_______________________________________________ >P2prg mailing list >P2prg@irtf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > > > > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Aug 22 01:22:59 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21800 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4JK-0004k8-6w for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:18:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7M5I6Kg018226 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:18:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4JK-0004jt-0j for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:18:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21686 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4JH-0006o3-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:18:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4JG-0006o0-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:18:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4JE-0004ix-UV; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:18:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4JC-0004ie-4Y for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:17:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21683 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4J9-0006nx-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:17:55 -0400 Received: from addr-mx02.addr.com ([209.249.147.146]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4J8-0006nk-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:17:54 -0400 Received: from proxy1.addr.com (proxy1.addr.com [209.249.147.28]) by addr-mx02.addr.com (8.12.8/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7M5HHhZ082531; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from C1812808A (12-234-138-57.client.attbi.com [12.234.138.57]) by proxy1.addr.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with SMTP id h7M5HG43064377; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Serguei Osokine" To: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" , Cc: Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:21:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77AE@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.50 (1.173-2003-02-20-exp) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, August 16, 2003 Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar wrote: > Back in 1980s, LH was proposed by Paul Francis for > self-configuring an ad-hoc network into a routing > hierarchy. Do you know if the original landmark hierarchy paper can be found anywhere on the net? All I seem to find is references... Thanks - Oso. 21 Aug 2003. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Aug 22 01:28:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22017 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4Sx-00057w-3v for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:28:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7M5S38n019702 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:28:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4Sw-00057h-Ul for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:28:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21996 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4St-0006tM-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:28:00 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4St-0006tI-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:27:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4Sv-00056n-1J; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:28:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4Sj-00056M-AO for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:27:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA21981 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4Sg-0006t4-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:27:46 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto3.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.160]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4Sf-0006t1-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:27:45 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211] RDNS failed) by kc-msxproto3.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:27:46 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:27:45 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77B8@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Thread-Index: AcNobMK9o3N8Dlb3R9Wq5W0fC42H1gAANG4w From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" To: Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 05:27:46.0247 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E6A2570:01C3686E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Back in 1980s, LH was proposed by Paul Francis for=20 >> self-configuring an ad-hoc network into a routing >> hierarchy. > > Do you know if the original landmark hierarchy >paper can be found anywhere on the net? All I seem to >find is references... search for "The Landmark Hierarchy: A New Hierarchy for Routing in Very Large Networks" in google. You will get=20 copies from various networking course reading list. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Aug 22 01:44:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22753 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4iR-0005lA-5C for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:44:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7M5i3kU022134 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:44:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4iQ-0005kv-Vw for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:44:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22734 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4iN-00070j-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:43:59 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4iN-00070g-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:43:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4iO-0005k4-JO; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:44:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19q4hm-0005jS-68 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:43:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA22723 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4hi-00070R-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:43:19 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19q4hi-00070O-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:43:18 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M5hJW9013796 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:43:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HK000H27AK3I6@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:43:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([67.124.118.174]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HK0003BZAJWQ8@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:43:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:43:09 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P In-reply-to: <3F456524.1020002@garbagedump.com> To: "C. Wegrzyn" Cc: Scott Michel , "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" , p2prg@ietf.org Message-id: <8327ED10-D463-11D7-8F34-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I think that whatever is done with P2P in this way it needs to be capable of handling the ad-hoc publication/removal and lookup of information describing billions of peer nodes in the worst case scenario. What should this information be? What is necessary and sufficient as a description to permit p2p communication? Should we use an overlay that is independent of the underlying infrastructure, and thus can be inherently mobile, and permit NATS to be transparent to the application? Etc .... Should the overlay be hierarchical much like IP.V6 routing, and thus permit the localization of publication to appropriate levels in the hierarchy, and allow lookup to gracefully climb the hierarchy? It could be that extensions of DNS are possible to handle these scenarios. I'm not sure. On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 05:34 PM, C. Wegrzyn wrote: > I'm not sure I agree with all of this. DNS is not a mechanism for > finding things other than addresses using symbolic names. This is > clearly the case even with things like ENUM. > > Searching is better left to other devices. While Google comes to mind > it isn't the best mechanism for searching for communities of people or > skills. > > Chuck Wegrzyn > > > Scott Michel wrote: _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Aug 22 17:41:31 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22264 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qJdm-0002Zt-Gt for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:40:15 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7MLeDDh009903 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:40:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qJdj-0002ZY-In for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:40:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22190 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qJdh-0002Qc-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:40:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qJdg-0002QW-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:40:08 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qJdd-0002YK-Cm; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:40:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qJcq-0002Vr-QW for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:39:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22161 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qJco-0002QG-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:39:14 -0400 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.192.128] helo=cs.ucla.edu) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qJcn-0002PS-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:39:13 -0400 Received: from cs.ucla.edu (rdwarrior.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.192.88]) by cs.ucla.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MLcPhT033597; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scottm@cs.ucla.edu) Message-ID: <3F468D51.2060302@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:38:25 -0700 From: Scott Michel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: osokin@osokin.com CC: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" , p2prg@ietf.org, francis@cs.cornell.edu Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was originally published as: P. F. Tsuchiya, "The landmark hierarchy: A new hierarchy for routing in very large networks," ACM Computer Communication Review, vol. 18, no. 4, August 1988. Serguei Osokine wrote: > On Saturday, August 16, 2003 Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar wrote: > >>Back in 1980s, LH was proposed by Paul Francis for >>self-configuring an ad-hoc network into a routing >>hierarchy. > > > Do you know if the original landmark hierarchy > paper can be found anywhere on the net? All I seem to > find is references... > > Thanks - > Oso. > 21 Aug 2003. > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@irtf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Aug 22 17:50:28 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22703 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qJnH-0002pu-UN for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:50:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7MLo3wA010896 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:50:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qJnH-0002pf-PG for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:50:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22685 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qJnF-0002Vh-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:50:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qJnE-0002Ve-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:50:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qJnG-0002nx-59; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:50:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qJmi-0002nX-OB for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:49:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22674 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qJmg-0002VQ-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:49:26 -0400 Received: from mordred.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.192.128] helo=cs.ucla.edu) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qJmf-0002VC-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:49:25 -0400 Received: from cs.ucla.edu (rdwarrior.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.192.88]) by cs.ucla.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MLmthT033647; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:48:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scottm@cs.ucla.edu) Message-ID: <3F468FC7.4070000@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:48:55 -0700 From: Scott Michel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: osokin@osokin.com CC: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IIRC, the original paper wasn't proposing an ad hoc routing system (but it's been a while since I've looked at it.) Mario Gerla and his lab did some relatively recent research into landmark routing applied to ad hoc networks, with mixed results. -scooter Serguei Osokine wrote: > On Saturday, August 16, 2003 Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar wrote: > >>Back in 1980s, LH was proposed by Paul Francis for >>self-configuring an ad-hoc network into a routing >>hierarchy. > > > Do you know if the original landmark hierarchy > paper can be found anywhere on the net? All I seem to > find is references... > > Thanks - > Oso. > 21 Aug 2003. > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@irtf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 23 00:06:30 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07429 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPfB-0008BH-Ev for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:06:05 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7N465m3031444 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:06:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPfB-0008B5-7O for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:06:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07421 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPf8-0005a0-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:06:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPf8-0005Zx-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:06:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPf6-00089y-6o; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:06:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPeU-00087Y-63 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:05:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07404 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPeR-0005ZR-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:05:19 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.98.43]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPeQ-0005ZO-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:05:18 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N41Rij020912 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HK200H5G0IE02@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([67.124.118.174]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HK200A9Z0ID1W@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:01:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:01:32 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] RE: DNS and P2P In-reply-to: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77B7@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> To: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Message-id: <7B146810-D51E-11D7-9D38-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT THis is a good point. If you look closely at DNS statistics, you will see it is THE bottle neck out there. We can gather URLs where this info is kept. I do like DHT and distributed content myself. See the work that is being done on Jxta by JPL to create a fully distributed P2P digital library with lots of redundancy. ANother interesting project here (not on jxta but p2p) is LOCKSS by Dave Rosenthal. Here a reputation based trust system and voting is used to decide on what archived data is valid. Several large libraries are participating in this project to create redundant digital library archives. Right, a little off of the track ... It does not use DHT's but provides a mechanism to know which sources of indexed lookup info are to be believed. On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 03:44 AM, Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) wrote: > But, I was talking about *architectural* > overload on the DNS system - which can be avoided using a P2P model. > But, yes!!! It is way too ambitious... _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 23 00:09:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07521 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPi4-00007u-09 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:09:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7N4935D000475 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:09:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPi3-00007Y-I0 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:09:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07512 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPi1-0005c8-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:09:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPhz-0005c4-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:08:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPi1-0008Vn-1L; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:09:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPhE-0008V0-9r for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:08:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07478 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPhB-0005bI-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:08:09 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPh7-0005bA-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:08:05 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N485CN015104 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:08:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HK200LE60TH5L@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:08:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([67.124.118.174]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HK200AAB0TG1W@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:08:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:08:09 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Call For Papers: Peer-to-Peer Internetworking In-reply-to: To: ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Message-id: <68299B20-D51F-11D7-9D38-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Do you really believe this? I heard the same thing about network protocols in 1981. Many of us pushed very hard to make the then fledgling IP protocol the standard much to the dismay of DEC and XEROX (DECNet and XNS). We all know where those two protocols ended up. An open, IP standard took about 10 years to bury the others. There are many more that became extinct. The below reminds me of most the the attempts to create protocol translating gateways. They have never led to anything long lived, and rarely is there a 1-1 mapping. Something is always lost. I think the hypothesis for this workshop needs to be closely reexamined. That might make a good paper (-: Arigato, Bill On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 08:25 PM, ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp wrote: > Since no single peer-to-peer network can > serve universal purposes, functional decomposition among multiple > peer-to-peer networks has to occur as peer-to-peer internetworking > framework is defined. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 23 00:13:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07616 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPlw-0000F9-9S for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7N4D4QJ000930 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPlw-0000Ev-3f for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07612 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:12:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPlt-0005e5-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPlt-0005e2-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPlt-0000BM-Pv; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qPlJ-0000AX-DS for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:12:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07598 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPlG-0005dj-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:12:22 -0400 Received: from addr-mx02.addr.com ([209.249.147.146]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qPlG-0005dE-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:12:22 -0400 Received: from proxy1.addr.com (proxy1.addr.com [209.249.147.28]) by addr-mx02.addr.com (8.12.8/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7N4BnhZ040966; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from C1812808A (12-234-138-57.client.attbi.com [12.234.138.57]) by proxy1.addr.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with SMTP id h7N4Bl43056439; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Serguei Osokine" To: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" , Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:16:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-reply-to: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77B8@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.50 (1.173-2003-02-20-exp) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, August 21, 2003 Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar wrote: > ...search for "The Landmark Hierarchy: A New Hierarchy for > Routing in Very Large Networks" in google. You will get > copies from various networking course reading list. Got it - thank you! Now, what makes me wonder is why there's no word about LANMAR on MANET WG site - looks like they had it in mind at some point to move it into IRTF, but I cannot find it in IRTF list, either. Which is kinda surprising given the scalability of the LANMAR-related approaches - say, maybe it would make sense to somehow integrate such MANET research into the P2PRG efforts? These areas seem to be awfully closely related - I can imagine quite a few uses for ad hoc routing in the existing p2p systems, and other way around, too. For example, DHTs seem to be widely suggested for use in the landmark routing systems' designs. Best wishes - Oso. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 23 01:27:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA09818 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:27:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qQvY-0002dG-FR for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:27:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7N5R4r9010112 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:27:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qQvY-0002d1-9f for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:27:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA09802 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qQvV-0006Cy-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:27:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qQvU-0006Cv-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:27:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qQvU-0002c7-CR; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:27:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qQuo-0002bq-Ek for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:26:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA09790 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qQuk-0006Ch-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:26:15 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.167]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qQuk-0006Cd-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:26:14 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211]) by kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:26:14 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [P2Prg] Peer-to-Peer Internetworking Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:26:16 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77BC@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: [P2Prg] Call For Papers: Peer-to-Peer Internetworking Thread-Index: AcNpLEjYK2wx9IqfTaqNEFXix8cMZgAA79iQ From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" To: "Bill Yeager" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2003 05:26:14.0907 (UTC) FILETIME=[126284B0:01C36937] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Do you really believe this?=20 [...] >The below reminds me of most the the attempts to create protocol=20 >translating gateways. They have never led to anything long lived, and=20 >rarely is there a 1-1 mapping. Something is always lost. So, do you believe that a single underlay is going to serve all=20 purpose? A number of technologies which tried doing everything ended up with no wide acceptance( e.g.. ATM - A Total Mess)=20 Lets just accept the fact that heterogeneity is present at all=20 angles. A lot of islands exist within IP itself (IPv4, Ipv6, site-locals). Also, the local private networks sometimes seems=20 to be cellular networks (gprs etc), ad-hoc ( with 802.11.);wireless networks need IP for remote connectivity. Then, we have developing=20 technologies like sensors and fiber-channels (Storage area networks). Also, we need PSTN-IP interworking for voice.=20 A single business model cannot satisfy the constraints of=20 all the network types. Hence, my own opinion is, we can=20 either create primitives which help the interaction between various islands ( e.g, jxta, Michel's FLAPPS can be extended for such functions.) Else, specific inter-working (IWE) can be done between domains(like IPNL- NAT extended architecture,=20 Cheriton's content routing, MANET and IP IWEing.) For IP=20 specific IWE, NATs and DNS are the possible extension victims. Imagine, a single universal identifiers for entities present in different domains (IP, sensor, SAN etc.) Is that seems a practical idea? How persistent those IDs will be... We are=20 stuck at naming level itself; a single routing and addressing=20 proposal seems not practical. >> Since no single peer-to-peer network can serve universal purposes,=20 >> functional decomposition among multiple peer-to-peer networks has=20 >> to occur as peer-to-peer internetworking framework is defined. This seems to be IWE at the application level. It is nothing new; as =20 application folks has invested a lot into work-flow service composition. = So, just replace "peer-to-peer network" with "application service"; you=20 can find a lot of vintage research works and even start ups. As major market forces has started investing into web services, application=20 interworking and automated service composition is very essential. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 23 01:36:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA10119 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qR4I-0002u0-Fi for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7N5a6cM011150 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qR4I-0002tl-9R for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA10101 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qR4D-0006Hh-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qR4C-0006He-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qR4E-0002qP-7l; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qR4C-0002q4-BQ for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:36:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA10095 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qR48-0006HV-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:35:57 -0400 Received: from kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.167]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qR48-0006HS-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:35:56 -0400 Received: from KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu ([134.193.143.211]) by kc-msxproto1.kc.umkc.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:35:57 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:35:59 -0500 Message-ID: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77BD@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Thread-Topic: [P2Prg] RE:MANETS and P2P Thread-Index: AcNpLMLE0vaxJFbZTFexg9xrNh5F+AACmZlQ From: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2003 05:35:57.0342 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D8B0BE0:01C36938] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Now, what makes me wonder is why there's no word >about LANMAR on MANET WG site - looks like they had it >in mind at some point to move it into IRTF, but I cannot >find it in IRTF list, either. =20 A lot of criteria goes in while standardizing a protocol in IETF: representative implementations, operational=20 consideration, vendor support and relevance to practical=20 world. In that aspect, AODV/DSR/OLSR routing protocols=20 seems way ahead in MANET WG (although, the WG is bit slow as no pressurizing market demand.) LANMAR is available as individual submission.=20 > Which is kinda surprising given the scalability of >the LANMAR-related approaches - say, maybe it would make >sense to somehow integrate such MANET research into the >P2PRG efforts?=20 Their is a sub-group within IRTF-RR (routing research group) which is currently discussing MANET scalability=20 issues. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 23 04:25:09 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA27178 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qThP-0003FJ-UK for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:42 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7N8OdZR012440 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qThM-0003EP-NS for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA27058 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qThK-0007U4-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:34 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qThJ-0007RZ-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:33 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qTgt-0002yN-BQ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qSof-0000mO-1f for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:28:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA25549 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qSoc-00078C-00 for P2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:28:02 -0400 Received: from ns.gbnet.net ([194.70.126.10] ident=qmailr) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qSoc-000788-00 for P2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:28:02 -0400 Received: (qmail 10035 invoked by uid 118); 23 Aug 2003 07:28:01 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 08:28:01 +0100 From: Sean Bennett To: Patrick Kirk Cc: P2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Control of Content in a P2P network Message-ID: <20030823072801.GA7577@gbnet.net> References: <20030816130726.GA3320@gbnet.net> <3F3E7C28.2090106@kirks.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F3E7C28.2090106@kirks.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Dear Sir, You have my point exactly backwards. It is you, these technologists, the IETF that I contend should not have the vote - to override the will of a sovereign nation. [You may argue that many nation states are undemocratic, monstrous, etc. and I would happily agree with you] That is, of course, not the point. To abrogate the will of a nation or people - no matter how misguided we may believe them to be (The USA's DMCA, The UK absurd secrecy laws, etc.) by virtue of a technical solution is a political choice. To make a political choice in a technical environment inherently disenfranchises the people of all nations. I also direct you to consider this phrase from the charter: "...the group offers a forum for researchers to explore a broad range of fundamental P2P issues such as: ... security of P2P systems involving reputation-based trust for ad-hoc systems or more centralized, CA-like approaches" I think that further discussion should be taken off the group. Yours, Sean Bennett On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 07:47:04PM +0100, Patrick Kirk wrote: > Sean Bennett wrote: > I followed the link and frankly I'm shocked that I find attitides like > this being promoted in a technical mailing list. > > Does that article really represent your views? You are saying that > freedom is only for "Western" people and offering it to people in Saudi > Arabia is "cultural imperialism, with its stress on US values and free > trade." Just in case some poor Westerner is caught in your little web > you say "Control (trusted 3rd parties, distributed approval , etc.) can > always be turned off for a given installation." > > Sean, I suggest you not call ideas like this "humble opinions" - its not > humble at all. Its the old "Them darkies just are not mature enough to > vote" argument. Even if you sincerely believe it, it still _stinks_. > > Slightly off topic here but even as a non-American I must admit to > amusement at the arrogance of an author who descibes the USA as not > having a legitimate government while defending the shenagigans of the > Saudi regime. The sad truth is that the Saudi royal family has _no_ > interest in governing America. Apart from your friends in the House of > Saud, who are the dictators you feel Americans could aspire to be > governed by? (Idi Amin is dead so you can't choose him). > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg -- Sean Bennett. E Pluribus Unum _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Aug 23 04:25:24 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA27193 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qThi-0003IS-0C for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:58 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7N8OvEx012661 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qThh-0003I8-MA for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA27152 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qThe-0007W1-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:54 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qThe-0007To-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qThI-00039P-JR; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:24:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qTaG-0002oc-19 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:17:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA26756 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qTaD-0007Ox-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:17:13 -0400 Received: from ns.gbnet.net ([194.70.126.10] ident=qmailr) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qTaC-0007Ou-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:17:12 -0400 Received: (qmail 16467 invoked by uid 118); 23 Aug 2003 08:17:13 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:17:13 +0100 From: Sean Bennett To: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar \(UMKC-Student\)" Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Peer-to-Peer Internetworking Message-ID: <20030823081713.GA11224@gbnet.net> References: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77BC@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77BC@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , On Sat, Aug 23, 2003 at 12:26:16AM -0500, Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) wrote: > > >Do you really believe this? > [...] > >The below reminds me of most the the attempts to create protocol > >translating gateways. They have never led to anything long lived, and > >rarely is there a 1-1 mapping. Something is always lost. > > So, do you believe that a single underlay is going to serve all > purpose? A number of technologies which tried doing everything > ended up with no wide acceptance( e.g.. ATM - A Total Mess) Not to pick nits but ATM was bodged because the Telcos wanted very different functionality from that what the computer industry required. The reason that mattered is that at the time all the chip foundries refused to fab masks (and hence chips) for a non-agreed standard. So we got the mutant that is ATM. Nowa days we tend not to see ATM networks because it just is pants for LAN work. But look at your (A)DSL modem - odds are good it is talking ATM-25 running Ethernet on-top of that. (well in the UK for sure) So I completely agree that ATM is a bodge - but that it is for a variety of reasons :) > Lets just accept the fact that heterogeneity is present at all > angles. A lot of islands exist within IP itself (IPv4, Ipv6, > site-locals). But surely that is because IP has few _policy_ based constraints? i.e. the islands are created because the protocol lacks that capacity? (and when one transitions from one protocol to another 4->6 one must create islands) > Also, the local private networks sometimes seems > to be cellular networks (gprs etc), ad-hoc ( with 802.11.);wireless > networks need IP for remote connectivity. Then, we have developing > technologies like sensors and fiber-channels (Storage area networks). > Also, we need PSTN-IP interworking for voice. All of these talk common protocols at various points in the stack - after all you don't really care how the packet is delivered - this is the nature of an internetwork. > A single business model cannot satisfy the constraints of > all the network types. But Why should it? Surley any bushiness model is about providing a service or a product in a way that people will wish to pay for. After all an IETF blessed P2P system that all computers in the world connect to as they start up - or open a browser etc. has no 'value'. Selling access to the global P2P system would have value. Providing chargeable content would have value. So would approved indexing and authoritative checking services. (i.e. 'The FT says this document is accurate - that will be 0.05 pence please') I think that you are still thinking in terms of Napster/kaza bushiness models. If I understand correctly the goal of this group is to render such systems valueless and allow the construction of the next generation - the Amazons, the WalMarts, etc. > Imagine, a single universal identifiers for entities present > in different domains (IP, sensor, SAN etc.) Is that seems a > practical idea? How persistent those IDs will be... We are > stuck at naming level itself; a single routing and addressing > proposal seems not practical. A P2P system would involve the distribution of data. Otherwise a physical object (this disk here) could not be distributed. Likewise with any physical object. A Peer - to - Peer system is asymmetric when one Peer has significantly different resources to other nodes. Consider this (highly contrived) example: My home computer has an outside temperature sensor. As a public service I load the read out of that sensor into the P2P network. The data holds who I am, the time of the reading, the location, the reading itself and it may included various references to how trustworthy I am - the Met Office (the UK weather service) etc. Whereas only my computer can load my copy of the temperature there is no requirement to identify the sensor to the P2P network. In fact I could not reference who I am at all. And be the 'reliable Cambridge weather station' relying on my references from trusted 3rd parties. I agree completely that a name space problem exists I would contend that it lies in how to manage the data in any P2P network that is created rather than in devices and sensors attached to it. Yours, Sean -- Sean Bennett. E Pluribus Unum _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Aug 24 13:28:51 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14077 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qyfC-0008KM-Kk for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:27 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7OHSQML032007 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qyfC-0008KA-DI for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14066 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qyfA-0000lR-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:24 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qyf9-0000lN-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:23 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qyen-0008I1-99; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:28:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19qyeJ-0008HO-PU for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:27:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA14011 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qyeF-0000kP-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:27:27 -0400 Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19qyeE-0000kM-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:27:27 -0400 Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OHRLCN009896 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:27:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HK400G5IWHLLC@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:27:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eng.sun.com ([63.205.187.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HK400HD1WHIXF@mail.sun.net> for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:27:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:18:45 -0700 From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Peer-to-Peer Internetworking In-reply-to: <5EF7D95E17BDAD4A968C812E5ABC390BAA77BC@KC-MAIL4.kc.umkc.edu> To: "Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student)" Cc: Bill Yeager , ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp, p2prg@ietf.org Message-id: <6F296331-D5F2-11D7-8348-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I do think that a single overlay can serve all. And, I am not being naive. The point of an overlay is that it hides the bearer networks, ie, is bearer network neutral. The underlying software that supports the overlay has the smarts to deal with any bearer network, and in a sense mediates bearer network differences. Unfortunately, here I contradict myself a little. I know of translating peer rendezvous between bluetooth and TCP/IP, and they are very close to being able to merge a bluetooth network with the Internet on Jxta. The BT peers don't even know they are peers. Also, there are already many examples that traverse 802.11a/b/g, cellular networks, satellite networks, ATM, sensor networks, mobile robots, etc ... using something as simple as the Jxta universal UUIDs. I don't believe these ID's are sufficient, and think a better routing model is needed if on has an Internet P2P network. Lots of work needs to go into rdvs to make this happen, and in some case, as I say, protocol translation is necessary. The IP.v4/V6 problem is easily handled by the way. There will also be ways to parition the overlay network into collections of peerNodes that wish to be virtual islands onto themselves within the overlay. Jxta calls these peerGroups. I call them connected communities. I really envision a time when IP.v6 addresses can be used as UUIDs on such an overlay. That is a few years away, but I like to target a future where there is UUID consistency. There will always be rough edges but we should target smoothing these edges and encourage an evolution to a pretty much P2P Internet that makes life a lot easier for all of us who want to write applications across this space. Bill On Friday, August 22, 2003, at 10:26 PM, Ayyasamy, Senthilkumar (UMKC-Student) wrote: > So, do you believe that a single underlay is going to serve all > purpose? A number of technologies which tried doing everything > ended up with no wide acceptance( e.g.. ATM - A Total Mess) > Lets just accept the fact that heterogeneity is present at all > angles. A lot of islands exist within IP itself (IPv4, Ipv6, > site-locals). Also, the local private networks sometimes seems > to be cellular networks (gprs etc), ad-hoc ( with 802.11.);wireless > networks need IP for remote connectivity. Then, we have developing > technologies like sensors and fiber-channels (Storage area networks). > Also, we need PSTN-IP interworking for voice. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Aug 24 15:29:31 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20723 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r0Xy-0004AH-HV for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:29:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7OJT6Yn016006 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:29:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r0Xy-0004A5-A3 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:29:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20676 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r0Xx-0002Ud-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:29:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r0Xw-0002Ua-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:29:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r0Xt-00048t-PB; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:29:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r0Xd-000487-NR for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:28:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20650 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r0Xc-0002Tq-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:28:44 -0400 Received: from mailhost.milessabin.com ([195.184.234.163] helo=putnam.milessabin.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r0Xb-0002TN-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:28:43 -0400 Received: from mailhost.milessabin.com ([195.184.234.174] helo=meinong.milessabin.com) by putnam.milessabin.com with esmtp (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.20) id 19r0X7-0007BS-7n for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:28:13 +0100 Received: from frege.milessabin.com ([195.184.234.172]) by meinong.milessabin.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19r0X7-0004jB-2X for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:28:13 +0100 Received: from miles by frege.milessabin.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 19r0X6-0003Y8-Pp for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:28:12 +0100 From: Miles Sabin To: p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Peer-to-Peer Internetworking Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:28:12 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <6F296331-D5F2-11D7-8348-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> In-Reply-To: <6F296331-D5F2-11D7-8348-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308242028.12772.miles@milessabin.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Yeager wrote, > I do think that a single overlay can serve all. And, I am not being > naive. The point of an overlay is that it hides the bearer networks, > ie, is bearer network neutral. The underlying software that supports > the overlay has the smarts to deal with any bearer network, and in a > sense mediates bearer network differences. I think this is confusing two quite distinct kinds of heterogeneity: of the substrate networks; and of the overlay networks themselves. Eliminating the first kind of heterogeneity is a non-starter. It's unreasonable to expect every peer to be able to deal with _any_ possible subtrate network ... lightweight peers for constrained devices should only have to be able to cope with the substrates they care about (eg. your Bluetooth example). I also think that trying to eliminate the second kind of heterogeneity from the outset would be unwise. It would imply that we believe that one size fits all ... and that's _far_ from clear right now. Your nod in the direction of JXTA PeerGroups is reasonable, but there's a fundamental difference between on the one hand starting from a single unifying network and slicing downwards to obtain scoping, and on the other starting from multiple, possibly application-specific networks and bridging. While I see the merits of the top-down approach, I also see the costs: reaching agreement on a single overarching model is likely to be painful and long-winded and unlikely to result in anything particularly palatable unless it's scope is so severely limited that it doesn't address issues much beyond those of, eg. IP. Which means that we'd be setting up a future WG either for interminable wrangling over something elaborate, or the redundancy of trying to produce yet another protocol of the same order as IP/TCP/HTTP to sit alongside all the others. I think that starting with an enumeration of more abstract services that peers might call on is a more useful starting point than preempting a future WG by arguing the pros and cons of particular styles of overlay. If nothing else, it'll probably turn out that different types of service have very different requirements of an overlay, so leaving the possiblity of multiple service-specific overlays (perhaps with nothing much in common apart from the fact that they sit on top of the same substrate(s)) seems like a good option. Cheers, Miles _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Aug 24 20:15:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02441 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r50m-00043g-8g for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:15:08 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7P0F8lb015601 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:15:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r50m-00043Y-2b for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:15:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02435 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r50k-0005mb-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:15:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r50j-0005mY-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:15:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r50g-00042a-5i; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:15:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r50X-000425-MI for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:14:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02429 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r50V-0005mO-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:14:51 -0400 Received: from web40408.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.78.105]) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r50U-0005m7-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:14:50 -0400 Message-ID: <20030825001421.42066.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.192.71.143] by web40408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:14:21 BST Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:14:21 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Rogers?= Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Peer-to-Peer Internetworking To: Miles Sabin , p2prg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200308242028.12772.miles@milessabin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Eliminating the first kind of heterogeneity is a non-starter. It's > unreasonable to expect every peer to be able to deal with _any_ > possible subtrate network I don't think anyone's suggesting that - the idea is to provide a uniform interface on top of every substrate, not a single implementation that works on any substrate. > ... lightweight peers for constrained devices > should only have to be able to cope with the substrates they care about > (eg. your Bluetooth example). I agree. But IDs should nevertheless be substrate-independent so that, eg Bluetooth peers can talk to 802.11 peers via a suitable gateway, without either end needing to know what substrate the other is using. > reaching agreement on a single overarching model is > likely to be painful and long-winded and unlikely to result in anything > particularly palatable unless it's scope is so severely limited that it > doesn't address issues much beyond those of, eg. IP. What's wrong with that? I think it would be very useful to have "an IP for peer-to-peer": ie, an unreliable datagram protocol which did not require centralized management of the address space or central trusted authorities for authentication. That's why I believe IDs for any "p2p internet" should be self-certifying, eg cryptographic hashes of public keys. The disadvantage of course is that cryptographic hashes don't contain any location information, so the network would also need a name service mapping IDs to (signed) location information. Michael ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Aug 25 00:08:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA10455 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r8eH-00027P-Dg for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7P489Pc008144 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r8eH-00027H-7O for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA10444 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r8eF-0000se-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r8eE-0000sa-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r8e9-00023e-GB; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:08:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19r8dt-00023E-HR for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:07:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA10434 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:07:38 -0400 (EDT) From: ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r8dr-0000s8-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:07:43 -0400 Received: from inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp ([202.33.96.40]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19r8dp-0000s3-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:07:42 -0400 Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id h7P47fIv028517; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:07:41 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id h7P47fAF013180; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:07:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from tis2 [133.199.160.66] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id PAA13178 ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:07:41 +0900 Received: from mx2.toshiba.co.jp by tis2.tis.toshiba.co.jp id NAA21024; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:07:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id NAA16229; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:07:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from cactus.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (ydoi@cactus [133.196.12.1]) by isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (8.11.7/8.11.6/1.4) with ESMTP id h7P47cb20225; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:07:38 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:07:37 +0900 Message-ID: To: Bill Yeager Cc: ydoi@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp, p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] Call For Papers: Peer-to-Peer Internetworking In-Reply-To: <68299B20-D51F-11D7-9D38-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> References: <68299B20-D51F-11D7-9D38-000A95766260@eng.sun.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 8) (Bryce Canyon) (sparc-sun-solaris2.5.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, Youki has already responded so I just add my point of view. Let's consider this three-layer model. +-------------+ | Applications| +-------------+ | +-------------+ | Overlay | +-------------+ | +-------------+ | Bare Network| +-------------+ Your point as I see stands there's many `bare network' in the world, and overlay unites them. My point is, `bare network' just let the message from end to end, and overlay supports name/id/route function per-application base. So, my view is like the following. +-------------++-------------+ | Applications|| Applications| +-------------++-------------+ | | <- loosely coupled +-------------++-------------+ | Overlay || Overlay | +-------------++-------------+ | | --+--------------+--- <- Decoupled. | +-------------+ | Bare Network| +-------------+ =46rom this standing point, I have keen interests on overlay network interconnection. This issue extends to version-up problem of overlay network. Version 1 and 2 of overlay protocol X would be considered as overlay X1 and X2. Thus, we need to interconnect them first to make smooth migration. Is the points clear? Yusuke At Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:08:09 -0700, Bill Yeager wrote: > = > Do you really believe this? I heard the same thing about network = > protocols in 1981. Many of us pushed very hard to make the then = > fledgling IP protocol the standard much to the dismay of DEC and XEROX = > (DECNet and XNS). We all know where those two protocols ended up. An= = > open, IP standard took about 10 years to bury the others. There are = > many more that became extinct. > = > The below reminds me of most the the attempts to create protocol = > translating gateways. They have never led to anything long lived, and = > rarely is there a 1-1 mapping. Something is always lost. > = > I think the hypothesis for this workshop needs to be closely = > reexamined. That might make a good paper (-: > = > Arigato, > = > Bill _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg