From mailman-admin@ietf.org Sat May 1 11:21:53 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24765 for ; Sat, 1 May 2004 11:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BJuSD-00007w-Eg for p2prg-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 May 2004 09:22:53 -0400 Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 09:22:53 -0400 Message-ID: <20040501132253.27207.19517.Mailman@www1.ietf.org> Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@www1.ietf.org To: p2prg-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes X-Ack: no Sender: mailman-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: mailman-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: mailman@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, p2prg-request@ietf.org) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. *************************************************************************** Note Well All statements related to the activities of the IETF and addressed to the IETF are subject to all provisions of Section 10 of RFC 2026, which grants to the IETF and its participants certain licenses and rights in such statements. Such statements include verbal statements in IETF meetings, as well as written and electronic communications made at any time or place, which are addressed to * the IETF plenary session, * any IETF working group or portion thereof, * the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG, * the IAB or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB, * any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself, any working group or design team list, or any other list functioning under IETF auspices, * the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function Statements made outside of an IETF meeting, mailing list or other function, that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF activity, group or function, are not subject to these provisions. *************************************************************************** If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@www1.ietf.org. Thanks! Passwords for p2prg-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- p2prg@ietf.org enimbi https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/p2prg/p2prg-archive%40lists.ietf.org From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun May 9 23:36:43 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA06603 for ; Sun, 9 May 2004 23:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BN1XX-0002MZ-9f for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:33:17 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4A3XFj5009083 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 9 May 2004 23:33:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BN1Uf-00021m-VH for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:30:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA06333 for ; Sun, 9 May 2004 23:30:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BN1Ue-0004tg-0d for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:30:16 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BN1Tf-0004cC-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:29:16 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BN1Sh-0004KQ-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:28:15 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BN1Ob-0001JI-SQ; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:24:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BN1HE-0000Zf-Sj for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:16:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA05865 for ; Sun, 9 May 2004 23:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BN1HC-0000dK-VW for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:16:23 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BN1Fq-0000H2-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:14:59 -0400 Received: from 200-180-176-082.paemt7006.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br ([200.180.176.82] helo=acl) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BN1Ek-0007hS-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Sun, 09 May 2004 23:13:51 -0400 Received: from acl ([192.168.1.5]) by acl with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 10 May 2004 00:15:45 -0300 Message-ID: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> From: "Alexandre" <17975@lci.upf.tche.br> To: Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 00:15:45 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 03:15:45.0437 (UTC) FILETIME=[1578F4D0:01C4363D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.0 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ALL_NUMS, FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the objectives mentioned in SUN's website is the complete platform independence . In this article http://www.jxta.org/project/www/docs/JXTAnetworkProgEnv.pdf, the writer says that many p2p systems, except for the JXTA, offer a certain degree for independence that, however, isn't complete. Citing: "many p2p systems today offer their features or services through a set of APIs that are delivered on a particular operating system usin a specific net-working protocol. For example, one system might offer a set of C++ APIs, with que system initially running only on Windows, over TCP/IP, while another system offers a combination with C and Java APIs, running on a variety of Unix systems, over TCP;IP but also requiring HTTP. A P2P developer is then forced to choose wrich set of APIs to program to, and consequently, which set of P2P customers to target. Because there is little hope that the two systems will interoperate, if the developer wants to offer the same service to both communities, they have to develop the same service twice for two p2p platforms or develop a bridge system between them. Both approaches are inefficient and impactical considering the dozens of p2p platforms in existence. JXTA technology is designed to be embraced by all developers, independent of preferred programming languages, development environments, or deployments platforms." In another article http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-p2pint1.html ) the writer cite that JXTA is independent to the JAVA. Many articles I've read quote about this complete platform independency, but doesn't make clear what are the resources in which jxta certifies that. I'd like you to clarify this question and also indicate more specific articles on the JXTA platform independence, with insider aspects. thanks. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 12:24:40 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA14723 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNDXJ-0007nD-OW for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:21:50 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AGLnqG029953 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:21:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNDNk-00056E-1f for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:11:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13955 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNDNi-0003AO-P7 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:11:54 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNDMm-0002rR-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:10:57 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNDMH-0002Z4-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:10:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BND7V-00019D-6i; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:55:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNCya-0008Cg-4J for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:45:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12104 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNCyY-0002BB-VG for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:45:55 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNCxd-0001r9-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:44:57 -0400 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNCwi-0001F9-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 11:44:00 -0400 Received: from phys-d3-ha21sca-1 ([129.145.155.163]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i4AFhU6b010984 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 08:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.ha21sca-mail1.sfbay.sun.com by ha21sca-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) id <0HXI004018UXY8@ha21sca-mail1.sfbay.sun.com> (original mail from Bernard.Traversat@Sun.COM) for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 08:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (vpn-129-150-19-1.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.19.1]) by ha21sca-mail1.sfbay.sun.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.24 (built Dec 19 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HXI0085T90I54@ha21sca-mail1.sfbay.sun.com>; Mon, 10 May 2004 08:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 08:44:10 -0700 From: Bernard Traversat Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence In-reply-to: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> To: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br> Cc: p2prg@ietf.org Message-id: <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Alexandre wrote: >In another article > http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-p2pint1.html ) the >writer cite that JXTA is independent to the JAVA. > >Many articles I've read quote about this complete platform >independency, but doesn't make clear what are the resources in >which jxta certifies that. > > > Alexandre, JXTA is defined as a wire protocol, like TCP/IP. The JXTA protocols can be implemented in many languages (C, Java, .net, Python, etc..). B. -- "As Java implies platform independence, and XML implies language independence, JXTA implies network independence." _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 13:17:21 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17961 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNEHp-0007nl-Ga for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:09:53 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AH9rQW029984 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:09:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNE9C-0005oQ-UB for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:00:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17117 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNE9B-00056O-59 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:00:57 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNE8L-0004n2-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:00:06 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNE7x-0004Sn-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:59:41 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNE0a-0004Xk-DY; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:52:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNDp6-0002iW-CP for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:40:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16066 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNDp4-0005qn-NY for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:40:10 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNDoC-0005UO-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:39:16 -0400 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNDnC-00055S-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:38:14 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: ayigIMBKP8eIrvvzUTco7g 1084207088 Received: from [10.0.1.3] (adsl-63-205-184-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.205.184.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50757B3ECB0; Mon, 10 May 2004 12:38:05 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, p2prg@ietf.org From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:38:04 -0700 To: Bernard Traversat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bernard, We can also note that Jxta abstracts the transport layer into an overlay network that is independent of the underlying real transports and link layers, and as a consequence Jxta peers can communicate with one another in a way that depends solely on the Jxta protocols and messages on the overlay network. Consequently, Jxta implementations on different transports and physical links are interoperable. In some cases Jxta rendezvous are required when the underlying transports differ: Imagine Bluetooth to TCP/IP on ethernet for example. Another important consequence of the Jxta protocols is that application writers need not concern themselves with the underlying barriers on the physical medium like NAT and firewalls. These are transparent to the applications. Bill On May 10, 2004, at 8:44 AM, Bernard Traversat wrote: > JXTA is defined as a wire protocol, like TCP/IP. The > JXTA protocols can be implemented in many languages (C, > Java, .net, Python, etc..). _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 13:59:22 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA20262 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNF0y-0006k5-NH for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:56:33 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AHuWvM025911 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:56:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNEyW-0005sj-Cy for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:54:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19926 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNEyU-0007ei-6Y for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:53:58 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNExZ-0007LC-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:53:02 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNEx4-000721-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:52:30 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNEpo-0004kD-RH; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:45:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNEk4-0003hQ-WA for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:39:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19147 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNEk2-0002Vg-SD for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:39:02 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNEjH-0002Ak-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:38:16 -0400 Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNEie-0001pz-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:37:36 -0400 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7747B49192; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) with ESMTP id i4AHaEX23621; Mon, 10 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucas Gonze To: Bill Yeager Cc: Bernard Traversat , Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence In-Reply-To: <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 So how does JXTA avoid the tcp-over-tcp problem? When using a rendezvous, are packets numbered and retransmitted? On Mon, 10 May 2004, Bill Yeager wrote: > Hi Bernard, > > We can also note that Jxta abstracts the transport layer into an > overlay network that is independent of the underlying real transports > and link layers, and as a consequence Jxta peers can communicate with > one another in a way that depends solely on the Jxta protocols and > messages on the overlay network. Consequently, Jxta implementations on > different transports and physical links are interoperable. In some > cases Jxta rendezvous are required when the underlying transports > differ: Imagine Bluetooth to TCP/IP on ethernet for example. > > Another important consequence of the Jxta protocols is that application > writers need not concern themselves with the underlying barriers on the > physical medium like NAT and firewalls. These are transparent to the > applications. > > Bill > > On May 10, 2004, at 8:44 AM, Bernard Traversat wrote: > > > JXTA is defined as a wire protocol, like TCP/IP. The > > JXTA protocols can be implemented in many languages (C, > > Java, .net, Python, etc..). > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@irtf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 14:43:39 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23586 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFj5-00005H-3e for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:42:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AIg7UQ000317 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:42:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFUf-0005Y8-HX for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:27:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22338 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNFUd-0003kZ-0z for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:27:11 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFTh-0003Mu-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:26:14 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFSe-0002wZ-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:25:08 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFMj-00043N-2a; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:19:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFKm-0003c6-Dd for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:17:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21391 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNFKj-0007nR-Uy for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:16:58 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFJj-0007Ph-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:15:55 -0400 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFId-0006nS-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:14:47 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: 2bwbgfO+e/LDqd50QMBJuA 1084212840 Received: from [10.0.1.3] (adsl-63-205-184-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.205.184.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3990DB40C63; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:13:57 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:13:58 -0700 To: Lucas Gonze X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jxta has a reliable message protocol for its "messages." This is end-to-end. I wrote it. Bill On May 10, 2004, at 10:36 AM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > So how does JXTA avoid the tcp-over-tcp problem? When using a > rendezvous, > are packets numbered and retransmitted? _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 15:01:25 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24784 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFwm-0002PB-55 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:56:16 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AIuGud009241 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:56:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFo3-0001EB-81 for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:47:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23949 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNFo0-0003Aw-IJ for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:47:12 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFn6-0002pp-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:46:16 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFmc-0002Ut-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:45:46 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFk0-0000UN-EZ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:43:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFbC-0006GL-BE for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:33:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22686 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNFb9-00066X-O9 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:33:55 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFaB-0005n0-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:32:55 -0400 Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFZC-0005SE-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:31:54 -0400 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B0648B76; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) with ESMTP id i4AIVre11252; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:31:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucas Gonze To: Bill Yeager Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Does end-to-end mean that TCP isn't used? Thanks. On Mon, 10 May 2004, Bill Yeager wrote: > Jxta has a reliable message protocol for its "messages." This is > end-to-end. I wrote it. > > Bill > > On May 10, 2004, at 10:36 AM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > > > So how does JXTA avoid the tcp-over-tcp problem? When using a > > rendezvous, > > are packets numbered and retransmitted? > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@irtf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 15:27:45 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27434 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGQR-00013z-IY for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:26:55 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AJQttH004083 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:26:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGFq-0006wQ-3q for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:15:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26384 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNGFo-0005DQ-Rf for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:15:56 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGEq-0004ro-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:14:56 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGDq-0004Sp-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:13:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNG0R-0002rD-Mk; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:00:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNFvr-00024m-LX for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:55:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24345 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNFvo-0005uZ-SG for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:55:16 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFuv-0005ZU-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:54:21 -0400 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNFuM-0005DG-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:53:46 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: ASBGqeoZ4kAl2xj5Mx/kFw 1084215224 Received: from [10.0.1.3] (adsl-63-205-184-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.205.184.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372E4B40C75; Mon, 10 May 2004 14:53:40 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:53:39 -0700 To: Lucas Gonze X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It may or may not be used. A reliable real transport is required to assure that each jxta message arrives to the next hop reliably. The jxta msg reliable transport then guarantees reliable end-to-end delivery of the msg given any number of jxta relay hops (relays are the jxta equivalent of routers and are usually but not necessarily bundled with a rendezvous). Bill On May 10, 2004, at 11:31 AM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > Does end-to-end mean that TCP isn't used? _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 15:30:03 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27618 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGQn-0001Mv-4m for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:27:17 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AJRHW3005256 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:27:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGPc-0000sU-5X for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:26:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27375 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:26:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNGPa-0000w1-RV for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:26:02 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGOh-0000c7-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:25:07 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGNo-0000IP-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:24:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGFB-0006fA-4p; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:15:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNG3N-0007fG-Uz for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:03:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24902 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNG3L-0000qa-1B for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:03:03 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNG2P-0000WD-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:02:06 -0400 Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNG1s-0000CV-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:01:32 -0400 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0F848953; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) with ESMTP id i4AJ1WU26214; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:01:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucas Gonze To: Bill Yeager Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence In-Reply-To: <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Ok, so when TCP is used, does the jxta msg reliable transport do numbering and retransmission? On Mon, 10 May 2004, Bill Yeager wrote: > It may or may not be used. A reliable real transport is required to > assure that each jxta message arrives to the next hop reliably. The > jxta msg reliable transport then guarantees reliable end-to-end > delivery of the msg given any number of jxta relay hops (relays are the > jxta equivalent of routers and are usually but not necessarily bundled > with a rendezvous). > > Bill > > On May 10, 2004, at 11:31 AM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > > > Does end-to-end mean that TCP isn't used? > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 16:17:13 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00725 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNH2Y-0000X8-6a for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:06:18 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AK6IND002051 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:06:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNH0P-0008SY-Rv for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:04:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00176 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNH0O-0006kL-Ac for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:04:04 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGzU-0006QR-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:03:09 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGyn-00066T-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:02:25 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGno-0005tz-O0; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:51:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGf4-0004MG-AI for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:42:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28601 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNGf2-0006hZ-U0 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:42:01 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGe2-0006Iu-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:40:58 -0400 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGd2-0005nW-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:39:56 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: 2Yxio4wBxOgeaLkOvGeH6w 1084217899 Received: from [10.0.1.3] (adsl-63-205-184-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.205.184.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE86B42100; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:38:16 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 12:38:16 -0700 To: Lucas Gonze X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, of the messages. That's why it is reliable. It guarantees the delivery of each message in the correct sequence, retransmits to fill holes using selective acknowledgment, etc. TCP assures a message gets from relay to relay but cannot guarantee message order or prevent drops. Note also that TLS can be used above the reliable transport thus breaking messages into 16k byte TLS records that are then sent as reliable jxta messages end-to-end. Bill On May 10, 2004, at 12:01 PM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > Ok, so when TCP is used, does the jxta msg reliable transport do > numbering > and retransmission? _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 16:25:37 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01306 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNHCf-00027F-0t for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:16:45 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AKGien008129 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:16:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNH2N-0000WT-FU for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:06:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00294 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNH2L-0007QI-Vs for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:06:05 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNH1Q-00076E-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:05:09 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNH0p-0006mA-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:04:31 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGnv-00060W-6r; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:51:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGlr-0005L3-68 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:49:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29005 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNGlp-0001Lv-O4 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:49:01 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGkn-00010K-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:47:58 -0400 Received: from mail3.panix.com ([166.84.1.74]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGjk-0000VW-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:46:53 -0400 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69BC98A40; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) with ESMTP id i4AJkqo02086; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:46:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucas Gonze To: Bill Yeager Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence In-Reply-To: <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Ok, so then is a relevant issue -- "Why TCP Over TCP Is A Bad Idea" http://sites.inka.de/sites/bigred/devel/tcp-tcp.html ... Note that the upper and the lower layer TCP have different timers. When an upper layer connection starts fast, its timers are fast too. Now it can happen that the lower connection has slower timers, perhaps as a leftover from a period with a slow or unreliable base connection. Imagine what happens when, in this situation, the base connection starts losing packets. The lower layer TCP queues up a retransmission and increases its timeouts. Since the connection is blocked for this amount of time, the upper layer (i.e. payload) TCP won't get a timely ACK, and will also queue a retransmission. Because the timeout is still less than the lower layer timeout, the upper layer will queue up more retransmissions faster than the lower layer can process them. This makes the upper layer connection stall very quickly and every retransmission just adds to the problem - an internal meltdown effect. " ... On Mon, 10 May 2004, Bill Yeager wrote: > Yes, of the messages. That's why it is reliable. It guarantees the > delivery of each message in the correct sequence, retransmits to fill > holes using selective acknowledgment, etc. > > TCP assures a message gets from relay to relay but cannot guarantee > message order or prevent drops. Note also that TLS can be used above > the reliable transport thus breaking messages into 16k byte TLS records > that are then sent as reliable jxta messages end-to-end. > > Bill > > On May 10, 2004, at 12:01 PM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > > > Ok, so when TCP is used, does the jxta msg reliable transport do > > numbering > > and retransmission? > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 16:37:01 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02103 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:37:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNHOo-00050I-BF for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:29:18 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AKTIXh019235 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:29:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNHIt-0003Rj-NG for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:23:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01063 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNHIs-0005P0-0g for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:23:10 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNHI2-00052W-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:22:18 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNHHP-0004gt-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:21:39 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNH2K-0000Vl-Dd; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:06:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNGxk-0007uM-FC for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:01:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00017 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNGxi-0005ka-Tv for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:01:19 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGwp-0005Oe-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:00:24 -0400 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNGvs-00051s-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:59:24 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: SKv6Onx6BriNkhahaJcq4A 1084219163 Received: from [10.0.1.3] (adsl-63-205-184-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.205.184.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CB9B40F84; Mon, 10 May 2004 15:59:20 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <867F443E-A2BC-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 12:59:20 -0700 To: Lucas Gonze X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is well understood and compensated for in the Jxta reliable transport. Look at the code if you are curious. We are not naive when it comes to the IP stack and TCP behaviors. Bill On May 10, 2004, at 12:46 PM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > Note that the upper and the lower layer TCP have different timers. When > an upper layer connection starts fast, its timers are fast too. Now it > can > happen that the lower connection has slower timers, perhaps as a > leftover > from a period with a slow or unreliable base connection. > > Imagine what happens when, in this situation, the base connection > starts > losing packets. The lower layer TCP queues up a retransmission and > increases its timeouts. Since the connection is blocked for this > amount of > time, the upper layer (i.e. payload) TCP won't get a timely ACK, and > will > also queue a retransmission. Because the timeout is still less than the > lower layer timeout, the upper layer will queue up more retransmissions > faster than the lower layer can process them. This makes the upper > layer > connection stall very quickly and every retransmission just adds to the > problem - an internal meltdown effect. " > ... _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 17:13:44 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA05656 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNHdJ-0000Gl-5r for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:44:17 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AKiH0H001030 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:44:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNHPZ-00056s-CW for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:30:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01724 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNHPX-0000Dk-Il for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:30:03 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNHOd-0007gL-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:29:08 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNHNk-0007KC-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:28:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNHDy-0002TN-Em; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:18:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNH77-0001DO-ET for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:11:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00491 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNH75-0001HZ-Pl for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:10:59 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNH67-0000xw-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:09:59 -0400 Received: from mail3.panix.com ([166.84.1.74]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNH55-0000WK-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:08:55 -0400 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7489894B; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) with ESMTP id i4AK8dw21855; Mon, 10 May 2004 16:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:08:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucas Gonze To: Bill Yeager Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence In-Reply-To: <867F443E-A2BC-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <867F443E-A2BC-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Fair enough. -L On Mon, 10 May 2004, Bill Yeager wrote: > This is well understood and compensated for in the Jxta reliable > transport. Look at the code if you are curious. We are not naive when > it comes to the IP stack and TCP behaviors. > > Bill > > On May 10, 2004, at 12:46 PM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > > > Note that the upper and the lower layer TCP have different timers. When > > an upper layer connection starts fast, its timers are fast too. Now it > > can > > happen that the lower connection has slower timers, perhaps as a > > leftover > > from a period with a slow or unreliable base connection. > > > > Imagine what happens when, in this situation, the base connection > > starts > > losing packets. The lower layer TCP queues up a retransmission and > > increases its timeouts. Since the connection is blocked for this > > amount of > > time, the upper layer (i.e. payload) TCP won't get a timely ACK, and > > will > > also queue a retransmission. Because the timeout is still less than the > > lower layer timeout, the upper layer will queue up more retransmissions > > faster than the lower layer can process them. This makes the upper > > layer > > connection stall very quickly and every retransmission just adds to the > > problem - an internal meltdown effect. " > > ... > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 18:17:05 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11571 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNIvD-0002hC-JP for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:06:53 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AM6pdW010359 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:06:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNIh2-0005TI-UT for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:52:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08865 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNIh0-0006Y7-E7 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:52:10 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNIg3-0006Cx-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:51:11 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNIf4-0005r7-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:50:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNIa8-0003MR-Vc; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:45:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNIHv-0007rS-VT for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:26:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA06925 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNIHt-0005Pt-K1 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:26:13 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNIEM-0004Ms-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:22:35 -0400 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNIBc-0003XY-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:19:44 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: HfAGNHSRU0gAhg1gIoJPbg 1084223982 Received: from [10.0.1.3] (adsl-63-205-184-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.205.184.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE567B416DC; Mon, 10 May 2004 17:19:40 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <867F443E-A2BC-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 14:19:39 -0700 To: Lucas Gonze X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The important thing to keep in mind is that the Jxta reliable transport is not exactly TCP on TCP. It behaves like TCP but on large chunks of data which are the messages themselves. It's timers are tightly bound to the TCP timers across the hops in the sense that it can only do as well as the *poorest* behaving TCP connection in the end-to-end sending of a jxta message. It was a little *painful* to get it to work well in all of the various cases. Up to one's ears in TCP traces (-: Bill On May 10, 2004, at 1:08 PM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > Fair enough. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 18:55:14 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14528 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNJT2-0007L8-Dx for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:41:48 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AMfmOU028214 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:41:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNJNZ-0005as-OH for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:36:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA12927 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNJNW-0006YC-QU for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:36:06 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNJMY-0006DO-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:35:07 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNJLW-0005lE-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:34:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNJAz-0002to-Hc; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:23:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNJ0S-0005pI-8q for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:12:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11065 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNJ0P-0005x4-C9 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:12:13 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNIzW-0005cC-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:11:18 -0400 Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNIyz-0005Gg-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:10:45 -0400 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.2]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE8148B52; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix2.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) with ESMTP id i4AMAja15081; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:10:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucas Gonze To: Bill Yeager Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <867F443E-A2BC-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 So it's actually aware of the TCP timers? Wow. On Mon, 10 May 2004, Bill Yeager wrote: > The important thing to keep in mind is that the Jxta reliable transport > is not exactly TCP on TCP. It behaves like TCP but on large chunks of > data which are the messages themselves. It's timers are tightly bound > to the TCP timers across the hops in the sense that it can only do as > well as the *poorest* behaving TCP connection in the end-to-end sending > of a jxta message. It was a little *painful* to get it to work well in > all of the various cases. Up to one's ears in TCP traces (-: > > Bill > > On May 10, 2004, at 1:08 PM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > > > Fair enough. > > > _______________________________________________ > P2prg mailing list > P2prg@irtf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 19:11:09 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15524 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNJt4-0004iX-Cv for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:08:45 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4AN8g85018128 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:08:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNJm4-00031z-Ar for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:01:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA14909 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNJm1-00000b-3n for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:01:25 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNJkr-0007RJ-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:00:14 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNJkJ-00077D-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:59:39 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNJfp-0001RW-B8; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:55:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNJSi-0007FJ-R7 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:41:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13404 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNJSf-0000e4-OL for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:41:25 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNJRw-0000HV-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:40:41 -0400 Received: from h6.c28.b96.tor.eicat.ca ([66.96.28.6] helo=mail.off.net) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNJR1-0007ff-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:39:43 -0400 Received: by mail.off.net (Postfix, from userid 948) id 815237702C2; Mon, 10 May 2004 18:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bitchcake.off.net (hashcash-sendmail, from uid 948); Mon, 10 May 2004 18:39:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:39:21 -0400 From: Adam Back To: Bill Yeager Cc: Lucas Gonze , Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org, Adam Back Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Message-ID: <20040510223921.GA26587@bitchcake.off.net> References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Hashcash: 0:040510:byeager@fastmail.fm:91ed383be49546bf7f5f00e1 X-Hashcash: 0:040510:lgonze@panix.com:e838d8cff2a7ac25791bad87 X-Hashcash: 0:040510:17975@lci.upf.tche.br:acad9a5657c3d4eb392f15e1 X-Hashcash: 0:040510:bernard.traversat@sun.com:e896ff315d058f308ae381a8 X-Hashcash: 0:040510:p2prg@ietf.org:55452c75cc8ee93de00627cf X-Hashcash: 0:040510:adam@cypherspace.org:645e46544cf5cdf5c0129b88 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Hi I think I must be misunderstanding something about the scenario: If you are using TCP between hops how would you get out of sequence messages or gaps? Wouldn't it be more like a router? If the connection fails the application loses it's connection? (Or suppose more accurately a TCP relay). Or is this because you are presuming one or more of the hops may be unreliable? I presume also that the default 99% case is that there are two hops (both sides NATted, one relay), and that TCP is used as the transport certainly for any internet app. Is there much latency and bandwidth overhead to adding this end-to-end TCP-like semantics in cases where it is not needed? Thanks Adam On Mon, May 10, 2004 at 12:38:16PM -0700, Bill Yeager wrote: > Yes, of the messages. That's why it is reliable. It guarantees the > delivery of each message in the correct sequence, retransmits to fill > holes using selective acknowledgment, etc. > > TCP assures a message gets from relay to relay but cannot guarantee > message order or prevent drops. Note also that TLS can be used above > the reliable transport thus breaking messages into 16k byte TLS records > that are then sent as reliable jxta messages end-to-end. > > Bill _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 19:48:47 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16947 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:48:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNKRM-0003OQ-Nd for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:44:08 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4ANi8TP013038 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:44:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNKLg-0002L8-UH for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:38:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16562 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNKLf-0005Ao-9V for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:38:15 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNKKi-0004lA-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:37:17 -0400 Received: from [65.246.255.50] (helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNKJU-00045o-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:36:00 -0400 Received: from optimus22.ietf.org ([132.151.6.22] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BNKHJ-0005oU-7H for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:33:45 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNK8x-0007pj-3f; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:25:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNK3T-0006KO-UK for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:19:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15875 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNK3S-0006Zt-DD for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:19:26 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNK2K-0006E1-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:18:16 -0400 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNK1i-0005tn-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:17:38 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: KIGwS0M2mNlsSY2kO3ufhQ 1084231051 Received: from [10.0.1.3] (adsl-63-205-184-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.205.184.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A492FB42862; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:17:28 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <867F443E-A2BC-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3447BB2A-A2D8-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:17:28 -0700 To: Lucas Gonze X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The awareness is implicit rather than explicit. It is aware of TCP behavior - Slow start - congestion window, window etc - and gears its window and retransmission schemes accordingly and self- adjusts. I've tested this across a firewall to an external jxta relay and back: two jxta peers on the same subnet discovering one another by the means of an external rendez-vous, and then using the external relay to communicate. I wasn't particularly pleased with the throughput (it was jxta 1.0 and jxta is now at least at release 2.1) but it adapted well - and as expected. OK. Need to do other things. By the way, I left Sun in January of this year and am no longer associated explicitly with jxta. I tried very hard to retire but was recruited by friends and now consult for the BBC Vect group in London. A lot more fun than Sun ! Bill On May 10, 2004, at 3:10 PM, Lucas Gonze wrote: > So it's actually aware of the TCP timers? Wow. _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 20:13:12 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17823 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 20:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNKoP-0008BE-FO for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 20:07:57 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4B07vSv031439 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 20:07:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNKg2-0006ha-2B for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:59:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17313 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNKfz-0004Sw-Vz for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:59:16 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNKez-00045r-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:58:14 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNKe0-0003j7-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:57:12 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNKSM-0003cG-Mw; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:45:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNKM2-0002R1-Ci for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:38:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16623 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNKM0-0005DI-Mr for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:38:36 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNKL9-0004pS-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:37:44 -0400 Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNKJd-0004P4-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:36:09 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: z+5HxHpgfjGftn68PV+cmg 1084232167 Received: from [10.0.1.3] (adsl-63-205-184-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.205.184.82]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5229DB44A94; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:36:03 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20040510223921.GA26587@bitchcake.off.net> References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <20040510223921.GA26587@bitchcake.off.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , Lucas Gonze , p2prg@ietf.org From: Bill Yeager Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:36:03 -0700 To: Adam Back X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You missed something I guess: peer <-- Jxta RMP/TCP/IP --> [relay] <--- Jxta RMP/TCP/IP --> ... <--- Peer. The problem is with the relays here. They may drop messages or reorder them. peer <-- Jxta RMP/TCP/IP --> peer One can experience dropped messages here because of the Jxta core protocol queues filling up and (incorrectly perhaps) not using TCP/IP backpressure to permit things to slow down. Rather, if a queue is filled, and another message arrives, it drops it on the floor. Really, Jxta should not read another message from TCP/IP until there is room in the queue. It could do this. It does not. Bill On May 10, 2004, at 3:39 PM, Adam Back wrote: > If you are using TCP between hops how would you get out of sequence > messages or gaps? > > Wouldn't it be more like a router? If the connection fails the > application loses it's connection? (Or suppose more accurately a TCP > relay). _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon May 10 21:32:43 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (www.iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA21243 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNM1i-0007c7-4O for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:25:46 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4B1Pksi029262 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:25:46 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNLwT-0006d2-6i for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:20:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20772 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNLwQ-0000gP-JO for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:20:18 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNLvU-0000Mh-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:19:22 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNLua-00002L-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:18:24 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNLlV-0004fR-Kh; Mon, 10 May 2004 21:09:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BNKXD-0004LX-E9 for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:50:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA17014 for ; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BNKXB-0001NS-Jv for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:50:09 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BNKWC-00012t-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:49:09 -0400 Received: from pomegranate.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.59.134] ident=cu41754) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BNKVB-0000Yo-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Mon, 10 May 2004 19:48:05 -0400 Received: from secure-endpoints.com (24-193-46-55.nyc.rr.com [24.193.46.55]) (user=jaltman mech=PLAIN bits=0) by pomegranate.cc.columbia.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i4ANlvIs027627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 10 May 2004 19:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40A01539.6070508@secure-endpoints.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 19:50:17 -0400 From: Jeffrey Altman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040421 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Back CC: Bill Yeager , Lucas Gonze , Alexandre <17975@lci.upf.tche.br>, Bernard Traversat , p2prg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2Prg] JXTA x Plataform Independence References: <008e01c4363d$1578f4d0$0501a8c0@acl> <409FA34A.3020401@sun.com> <68E963B3-A2A0-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <59E5FB96-A2B3-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <955655EE-A2B9-11D8-9869-000393DBC30E@fastmail.fm> <20040510223921.GA26587@bitchcake.off.net> In-Reply-To: <20040510223921.GA26587@bitchcake.off.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090403030708010602070506" X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.40 Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TITLE_EMPTY autolearn=no version=2.60 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090403030708010602070506 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010803000805090308060703" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010803000805090308060703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JXTA does not require that all messages between two peers be transmitted along the same route of endpoints. Nor is it required that TCP be used as the transport between each endpoint. In fact, the endpoints themselves are not required to transmit all messages in a reliable manner. If one of the endpoints along the route is transient or very small it is possible that it might drop messages as needed. They will be retransmitted by the source peer based upon a sliding window protocol. Your assumption that TCP is the most frequently used protocol is true on the Internet but would not necessarily be true on other types of networks. There is of course overhead which might be considered to be unnecessary on the public internet. However, even in the case where TCP is used throughout, there are network configurations in which messages which are propagated across the boundaries of secure private networks must be pulled out of one cloud and then inserted into another. It is these cases where the JXTA model truly shines. Jeffrey Altman Secure Endpoints Inc Adam Back wrote: >Hi > >I think I must be misunderstanding something about the scenario: > >If you are using TCP between hops how would you get out of sequence >messages or gaps? > >Wouldn't it be more like a router? If the connection fails the >application loses it's connection? (Or suppose more accurately a TCP >relay). > >Or is this because you are presuming one or more of the hops may be >unreliable? > >I presume also that the default 99% case is that there are two hops >(both sides NATted, one relay), and that TCP is used as the transport >certainly for any internet app. > >Is there much latency and bandwidth overhead to adding this end-to-end >TCP-like semantics in cases where it is not needed? > >Thanks > >Adam > >On Mon, May 10, 2004 at 12:38:16PM -0700, Bill Yeager wrote: > >>Yes, of the messages. That's why it is reliable. It guarantees the >>delivery of each message in the correct sequence, retransmits to fill >>holes using selective acknowledgment, etc. >> >>TCP assures a message gets from relay to relay but cannot guarantee >>message order or prevent drops. Note also that TLS can be used above >>the reliable transport thus breaking messages into 16k byte TLS records >>that are then sent as reliable jxta messages end-to-end. >> >>Bill >> > >_______________________________________________ >P2prg mailing list >P2prg@irtf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg > --------------010803000805090308060703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JXTA does not require that all messages between two peers be transmitted
along the same route of endpoints.  Nor is it required that TCP be used as the transport between
each endpoint.  In fact, the endpoints themselves are not required to transmit all messages
in a reliable manner.  If one of the endpoints along the route is transient or very small
it is possible that it might drop messages as needed.  They will be retransmitted by the
source peer based upon a sliding window protocol.

Your assumption that TCP is the most frequently used protocol is true on the
Internet but would not necessarily be true on other types of networks. 

There is of course overhead which might be considered to be unnecessary on the
public internet.  However, even in the case where TCP is used throughout, there
are network configurations in which messages which are propagated across the
boundaries of secure private networks must be pulled out of one cloud and then
inserted into another.  It is these cases where the JXTA model truly shines.

Jeffrey Altman
Secure Endpoints Inc

Adam Back wrote:
 
Hi

I think I must be misunderstanding something about the scenario:

If you are using TCP between hops how would you get out of sequence
messages or gaps?

Wouldn't it be more like a router?  If the connection fails the
application loses it's connection?  (Or suppose more accurately a TCP
relay).

Or is this because you are presuming one or more of the hops may be
unreliable?

I presume also that the default 99% case is that there are two hops
(both sides NATted, one relay), and that TCP is used as the transport
certainly for any internet app.

Is there much latency and bandwidth overhead to adding this end-to-end
TCP-like semantics in cases where it is not needed?

Thanks

Adam

On Mon, May 10, 2004 at 12:38:16PM -0700, Bill Yeager wrote:

Yes, of the messages. That's why it is reliable. It guarantees the 
delivery of each message in the correct sequence, retransmits to fill 
holes using selective acknowledgment, etc.

TCP assures a message gets from relay to relay but cannot guarantee 
message order or prevent drops. Note also that TLS can be used above 
the reliable transport thus breaking messages into 16k byte TLS records 
that are then sent as reliable jxta messages end-to-end.

Bill


_______________________________________________
P2prg mailing list
P2prg@irtf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg
--------------010803000805090308060703-- --------------ms090403030708010602070506 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIJWzCC AwgwggJxoAMCAQICAwwi+zANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UE ChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNv bmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQwNDE1MTg0ODQwWhcNMDUwNDE1MTg0ODQw WjBOMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwgTWVtYmVyMSswKQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhxq YWx0bWFuQHNlY3VyZS1lbmRwb2ludHMuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIB CgKCAQEA5WnLxXSbhiAKTjRP5mklMD8mpWX6frWdwbDNYn/tM7KlmxDYZtap9wRazwqfQ/lh DgGSBS+7wOxF5nhUwz6bHht0la+bjS3OdZeIYw1VWLwgqzG7eEehoXDyWOt0uXrTRMqZnz2U La8AGw/CaY4kQHUUM26U0XskJQhVqolmK3tzjGMSx7SA00iBy1nR4dbR3OUvJQGwB4Xbs6NM qi/C0F4TY/ve06lpw4woqA9U1WljdMXdnHda8gw3QJM7nX6Hr18A+yGVbI22IZqQyKmQkluD dwsSi0yRvo4lelHYxmaDiyl0JQujenEAsuahRxI55oVkvHe3iIMIBo9+yiOQpQIDAQABo1ww WjAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMCA/gwEQYJYIZIAYb4QgEBBAQDAgWgMCcGA1UdEQQgMB6BHGphbHRt YW5Ac2VjdXJlLWVuZHBvaW50cy5jb20wDAYDVR0TAQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOB gQASZTjkUgUm32KU1HwB1SPRFIvWmCLHxSYldUIhg8Y6QlhVZUlQn5011XShy6Nn6ZMQy9bi dH7wTt65ZQK+BSX7E/DfCgYn+fbcDvC7AlPbw0CGx1LcCYqEOZ2KiUdOxwZYUUbZGad0EfKw YtY4NDRpxlF02kn1ubk4YKZthbR9gTCCAwgwggJxoAMCAQICAwwi+zANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQF ADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRk LjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDQw NDE1MTg0ODQwWhcNMDUwNDE1MTg0ODQwWjBOMR8wHQYDVQQDExZUaGF3dGUgRnJlZW1haWwg TWVtYmVyMSswKQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhxqYWx0bWFuQHNlY3VyZS1lbmRwb2ludHMuY29tMIIB IjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA5WnLxXSbhiAKTjRP5mklMD8mpWX6frWd wbDNYn/tM7KlmxDYZtap9wRazwqfQ/lhDgGSBS+7wOxF5nhUwz6bHht0la+bjS3OdZeIYw1V WLwgqzG7eEehoXDyWOt0uXrTRMqZnz2ULa8AGw/CaY4kQHUUM26U0XskJQhVqolmK3tzjGMS x7SA00iBy1nR4dbR3OUvJQGwB4Xbs6NMqi/C0F4TY/ve06lpw4woqA9U1WljdMXdnHda8gw3 QJM7nX6Hr18A+yGVbI22IZqQyKmQkluDdwsSi0yRvo4lelHYxmaDiyl0JQujenEAsuahRxI5 5oVkvHe3iIMIBo9+yiOQpQIDAQABo1wwWjAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMCA/gwEQYJYIZIAYb4QgEB BAQDAgWgMCcGA1UdEQQgMB6BHGphbHRtYW5Ac2VjdXJlLWVuZHBvaW50cy5jb20wDAYDVR0T AQH/BAIwADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFAAOBgQASZTjkUgUm32KU1HwB1SPRFIvWmCLHxSYldUIh g8Y6QlhVZUlQn5011XShy6Nn6ZMQy9bidH7wTt65ZQK+BSX7E/DfCgYn+fbcDvC7AlPbw0CG x1LcCYqEOZ2KiUdOxwZYUUbZGad0EfKwYtY4NDRpxlF02kn1ubk4YKZthbR9gTCCAz8wggKo oAMCAQICAQ0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgdExCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUwEwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0 ZXJuIENhcGUxEjAQBgNVBAcTCUNhcGUgVG93bjEaMBgGA1UEChMRVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRp bmcxKDAmBgNVBAsTH0NlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gU2VydmljZXMgRGl2aXNpb24xJDAiBgNVBAMT G1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBDQTErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYccGVyc29uYWwt ZnJlZW1haWxAdGhhd3RlLmNvbTAeFw0wMzA3MTcwMDAwMDBaFw0xMzA3MTYyMzU5NTlaMGIx CzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSww KgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQTCBnzANBgkqhkiG 9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEAxKY8VXNV+065yplaHmjAdQRwnd/p/6Me7L3N9VvyGna9fww6 YfK/Uc4B1OVQCjDXAmNaLIkVcI7dyfArhVqqP3FWy688Cwfn8R+RNiQqE88r1fOCdz0Dviv+ uxg+B79AgAJk16emu59l0cUqVIUPSAR/p7bRPGEEQB5kGXJgt/sCAwEAAaOBlDCBkTASBgNV HRMBAf8ECDAGAQH/AgEAMEMGA1UdHwQ8MDowOKA2oDSGMmh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudGhhd3RlLmNv bS9UaGF3dGVQZXJzb25hbEZyZWVtYWlsQ0EuY3JsMAsGA1UdDwQEAwIBBjApBgNVHREEIjAg pB4wHDEaMBgGA1UEAxMRUHJpdmF0ZUxhYmVsMi0xMzgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEASIzR UIPqCy7MDaNmrGcPf6+svsIXoUOWlJ1/TCG4+DYfqi2fNi/A9BxQIJNwPP2t4WFiw9k6GX6E sZkbAMUaC4J0niVQlGLH2ydxVyWN3amcOY6MIE9lX5Xa9/eH1sYITq726jTlEBpbNU1341Yh eILcIRk13iSx0x1G/11fZU8xggM7MIIDNwIBATBpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQK ExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29u YWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIDDCL7MAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggGnMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJ AzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTA0MDUxMDIzNTAxN1owIwYJKoZIhvcN AQkEMRYEFDLJfvFCbdbkuEbHHP9PnblOcSPgMFIGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzFFMEMwCgYIKoZIhvcN AwcwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgFAMAcGBSsOAwIHMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMC AgEoMHgGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDFrMGkwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBD b25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFp bCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAgMMIvswegYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxa6BpMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUw IwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUg UGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIDDCL7MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAKzA M97OBD/m/T+xZGeatml0I+yii+tTeK97U+865ld4WzJsP1gQwYmpJ95om9hPgfp8EenNSnVf ozgqyLXnnycbzU7e9RTeqnRkR6aY1bmbcqtDrZx28PIhMSf2rWTyC/TwPS+tVvBUsKZHKBEv LuBoKG7wDYsKCkI7oSchOJ4WTfytD4NrEvJo2ROuSaY3wbJlPiyispepl3SiUeRQ5DiYrxaQ 7h46Ra5SeevF0V8QAsV8PW8smF73wLrEpIHEV2myUOmiO9pYfM31i9jHIYoOhpYD3J97wrPB 4tSzwsB79qRKupP8W9HjAmNLCaap61aU41fG+KFjjHWYAobqZzoAAAAAAAA= --------------ms090403030708010602070506-- _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue May 18 18:20:45 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24460 for ; Tue, 18 May 2004 18:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BQCqJ-0003fv-Pv for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 18:13:48 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4IMDlwq014127 for p2prg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 18:13:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BQCgB-0006Eb-Su for p2prg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 18:03:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22530 for ; Tue, 18 May 2004 18:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BQCg9-0000vU-Ag for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 18:03:17 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BQCfG-0000qy-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 18:02:23 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BQCdx-0000gO-00 for p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 18:01:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BQCVF-0002fw-8E; Tue, 18 May 2004 17:52:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BQCKo-00013l-8V for p2prg@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 17:41:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20870 for ; Tue, 18 May 2004 17:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BQCKl-000753-N8 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 17:41:11 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BQCJt-00072W-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 17:40:18 -0400 Received: from gondor.cerego.co.jp ([210.158.200.253]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BQCJQ-0006xN-00 for p2prg@ietf.org; Tue, 18 May 2004 17:39:49 -0400 Received: from CEREGO_EXCHANGE.cerego.co.jp (optional02.cerego.co.jp [192.168.2.1]) by gondor.cerego.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0E93FAB0; Wed, 19 May 2004 06:38:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from neurogrid.com (frodo.cerego.co.jp [192.168.2.3]) by CEREGO_EXCHANGE.cerego.co.jp with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id KD7VCQ8Y; Wed, 19 May 2004 06:39:11 +0900 Message-ID: <40AA8272.4040602@neurogrid.com> Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:38:58 +0900 From: Sam Joseph Reply-To: sam@neurogrid.com Organization: NeuroGrid http://www.neurogrid.net/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ja-JP; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Peer-to-peer development." , p2p-irtf References: <40A88A96.2050909@gkec.tu-darmstadt.de> <20040517101130.GA25728@leitl.org> <40A8C040.50709@gkec.tu-darmstadt.de> <40A8E22A.1040508@gkec.tu-darmstadt.de> <1084811791.19169.13.camel@bog> <1084872424.22885.49.camel@arianus> In-Reply-To: <1084872424.22885.49.camel@arianus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed X-gondor-MailScanner-Information: Checked by MailScanner X-gondor-MailScanner: STATUS-CLEAN X-gondor-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=0.11, required 4.5, AWL 0.11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [P2Prg] CAN Sender: p2prg-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: p2prg-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: p2prg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Peer-to-Peer Research Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, So I'm just relooking through the DHT papers, and I had one question=20 about CAN (Ratnasamy et al., 2001) that was perplexing me slightly. In CAN keys are mapped onto a 2D or higher space - I'm clear with the=20 idea of hashing a value to map onto a 1D space, but I'm not so sure how=20 we map keys uniformly onto a 2D space. I can think of several ways to do=20 it, but I wondered if there was a standard approach. We can't just use=20 the same hash function for each dimension because then there wouldn't be=20 a uniform distribution. Possible alternatives seem like splitting the=20 original key in half, or using a different function for each dimension. It also seemed like the overhead of messages required for topology=20 maintenance was not analysed in depth, and also that in order for the=20 CAN repair algorithms to work the peers seem like they would need to=20 maintain additional state beyong just knowing who their neighbours are=20 in the space. As I understand it the topology maintenance messages are=20 information about a peer and its routing table, broadcast to neighbours=20 in the space. When a peer fails, its neighbours have to communicate each=20 other - so it seems like they would have to be caching information from=20 the topology maintenance messaging ... This probably doesn't affect the=20 order of how much state needs to be maintained, but it seemed like=20 something that needed to be stated more explicitly. Anyways, if anyone has any thoughts on these things I'd be very=20 interested to hear about it. Many thanks in advance CHEERS> SAM S. Ratnasamy, P. Francis, M. Handley, R. Karp and S. Schenker, =93A=20 scalable content-addressable network=94, Proc. ACM SIGCOMM, 2001 _______________________________________________ P2prg mailing list P2prg@irtf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2prg