
From ietf-ipr@ietf.org  Thu Sep 22 07:33:17 2011
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From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
To: scott.probasco@nokia.com, Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com, basavaraj.patil@nokia.com, brian.rosen@neustar.biz, 
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Cc: paws@ietf.org, br@brianrosen.net, presnick@qualcomm.com, ipr-announce@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] IPR Disclosure: Microsoft Corporation's Statement about IPR related	to draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-00
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Dear Scott Probasco, Gabor Bajko, Basavaraj Patil, Brian Rosen:

 An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "Protocol =
to
Access White Space database: PS, use cases and rqmts" (draft-ietf-paws-prob=
lem-
stmt-usecases-rqmts) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2011-09-20 an=
d has
been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures"
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1614/). The title of the IPR disclosure is
"Microsoft Corporation's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-paws-pro=
blem-
stmt-usecases-rqmts-00."");

The IETF Secretariat


From paul@marvell.com  Tue Oct 11 17:24:17 2011
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From: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:21:35 -0700
Thread-Topic: Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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Subject: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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Seems like we need to consider testing and certification of WS devices.

How do we run tests?
How do we ensure access to databases of multiple regulatory authorities in =
multiple locations?
How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?
Are special back doors required to GDBs?
How do we establish different frequency grants for testing purposes?

Requirements:
Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:
- test multiple locations
- test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs
- test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed
- support international test houses

We will need real databases to have special limited backdoor for testing an=
d certification.

Paul


From Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com  Tue Oct 11 19:55:39 2011
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From: <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>
To: <paul@marvell.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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Hi Paul,

Your comment below relates to how testing of the protocol between devices
to databases is done.
IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.

I do see the need for testing to be done in a lab with various location
settings. But this could potentially be simulated or emulated or
manipulated with some lab setting.

-Raj

On 10/11/11 7:21 PM, "ext Paul Lambert" <paul@marvell.com> wrote:

>Seems like we need to consider testing and certification of WS devices.
>
>How do we run tests?
>How do we ensure access to databases of multiple regulatory authorities
>in multiple locations?
>How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?
>Are special back doors required to GDBs?
>How do we establish different frequency grants for testing purposes?
>
>Requirements:
>Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:
>- test multiple locations
>- test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs
>- test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed
>- support international test houses
>
>We will need real databases to have special limited backdoor for testing
>and certification.
>
>Paul
>
>_______________________________________________
>paws mailing list
>paws@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


From pecclesi@cisco.com  Tue Oct 11 19:52:35 2011
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Thread-Topic: Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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From: "Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com>
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Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY,
with several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz,
in several TV bands (VHF and UHF).

=20

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:

                1 - Lowest applicable frequency in MHz

                2 - Highest applicable frequency in MHz

                3 - Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined
by the spectrum mask

                4 - General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit
power in EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly
interpolated between adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed
like IEEE 802.11p Annex I
[http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or FCC
47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).=20

                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP
measurements

=20

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the
database to perform more accurate interference calculations.

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>In IEEE =
802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, with =
several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in =
several TV bands (VHF and UHF).<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We see the =
need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each =
with:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 &#8211; Lowest applicable =
frequency in MHz<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 &#8211; Highest applicable =
frequency in MHz<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 &#8211; Maximum total EIRP =
over the frequency range defined by the spectrum =
mask<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 &#8211; General spectrum =
mask in dBr from peak transmit power in EIRP, with specific power limit =
at any frequency linearly interpolated between adjacent points of the =
spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p Annex I =
[http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or FCC =
47 C.F.R. 90.210(m). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5- measurement resolution =
bandwidth for EIRP measurements<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; This detailed actual spectrum occupancy =
information allows the database to perform more accurate interference =
calculations.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>petere<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Peter =
Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>MS SJ-14-4 =
170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706 </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Ph =
408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&quot;Time =
doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. =
1-207</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>
To: <pecclesi@cisco.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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--_000_CABA73C212008basavarajpatilnokiacom_
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So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-data=
base) protocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com<mailto:pecclesi@=
cisco.com>>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, wit=
h several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in seve=
ral TV bands (VHF and UHF).

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:
                1 =96 Lowest applicable frequency in MHz
                2 =96 Highest applicable frequency in MHz
                3 =96 Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined b=
y the spectrum mask
                4 =96 General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power=
 in EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated =
between adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p A=
nnex I [http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or =
FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the database =
to perform more accurate interference calculations.

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
_______________________________________________ paws mailing list paws@ietf=
.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

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e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2=
-database) protocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?</di=
v>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
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<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine (pe=
cclesi)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -07=
00<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[paws] Several spectrum ma=
sks used by multi-bandwidth radios<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a mod=
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MHz and 16 MHz, in several TV bands (VHF and UHF).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We see the need to tell the database several spectru=
m masks, each with:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 =96 =
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =96 =
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
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Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined by the spectrum mask<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 =96 =
General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power in EIRP, with specifi=
c power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated between adjacent point=
s of the spectrum mask, expressed like
 IEEE 802.11p Annex I [<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/down=
load/802.11p-2010.pdf">http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11=
p-2010.pdf</a>] or FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5- mea=
surement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; This detailed actual spectrum occupancy=
 information allows the database to perform more accurate interference calc=
ulations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">petere<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">=
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; f=
ont-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">=
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', seri=
f; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">=
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; fon=
t-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; ">&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without Pre=
judice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "M.K.Sajeev sajeev" <mksaji@yahoo.com>
To: "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "paul@marvell.com" <paul@marvell.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
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---2114655128-786286467-1318393545=:89081
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Hi,=0A=0AScenarios mentioned here looks like end to end testing of white sp=
ace radios, and certifying those. Where do these fit in? Is it in the scope=
 of IEEE 802.22?=0A=A0=0ABest Regards,=0A=0ASajeev Manikkoth=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=
=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Ba=
savaraj.Patil@nokia.com>=0ATo: paul@marvell.com; paws@ietf.org=0ASent: Wedn=
esday, 12 October 2011, 8:23=0ASubject: Re: [paws] Testing and certificatio=
n for devices using PAWS=0A=0A=0AHi Paul,=0A=0AYour comment below relates t=
o how testing of the protocol between devices=0Ato databases is done.=0AIMO=
 this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.=0A=0AI do see the =
need for testing to be done in a lab with various location=0Asettings. But =
this could potentially be simulated or emulated or=0Amanipulated with some =
lab setting.=0A=0A-Raj=0A=0AOn 10/11/11 7:21 PM, "ext Paul Lambert" <paul@m=
arvell.com> wrote:=0A=0A>Seems like we need to consider testing and certifi=
cation of WS devices.=0A>=0A>How do we run tests?=0A>How do we ensure acces=
s to databases of multiple regulatory authorities=0A>in multiple locations?=
=0A>How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?=0A>Are spe=
cial back doors required to GDBs?=0A>How do we establish different frequenc=
y grants for testing purposes?=0A>=0A>Requirements:=0A>Device-to-GDB must h=
ave facilities for testing to:=0A>- test multiple locations=0A>- test multi=
ple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs=0A>- test various frequency grants from=
 a fixed testbed=0A>- support international test houses=0A>=0A>We will need=
 real databases to have special limited backdoor for testing=0A>and certifi=
cation.=0A>=0A>Paul=0A>=0A>_______________________________________________=
=0A>paws mailing list=0A>paws@ietf.org=0A>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/paws=0A=0A_______________________________________________=0Apaws maili=
ng list=0Apaws@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
---2114655128-786286467-1318393545=:89081
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Hi,</span>=
</div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Scenarios mentioned here looks=
 like end to end testing of white space radios, and certifying those. Where=
 do these fit in? Is it in the scope of IEEE 802.22?</span></div><div>&nbsp=
;</div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#c00000"><i>Best Rega=
rds,</i></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#c00000=
"><i><br></i></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#c=
00000"><i>Sajeev Manikkoth<br></i></font><br><br><br></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; ">=
<div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', =
times, serif; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span sty=
le=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com"
 &lt;Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com&gt;<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"=
>To:</span></b> paul@marvell.com; paws@ietf.org<br><b><span style=3D"font-w=
eight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 12 October 2011, 8:23<br><b><span=
 style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [paws] Testing and ce=
rtification for devices using PAWS<br></font><br><br>Hi Paul,<br><br>Your c=
omment below relates to how testing of the protocol between devices<br>to d=
atabases is done.<br>IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol it=
self.<br><br>I do see the need for testing to be done in a lab with various=
 location<br>settings. But this could potentially be simulated or emulated =
or<br>manipulated with some lab setting.<br><br>-Raj<br><br>On 10/11/11 7:2=
1 PM, "ext Paul Lambert" &lt;<a ymailto=3D"mailto:paul@marvell.com" href=3D=
"mailto:paul@marvell.com">paul@marvell.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt;Seems =
like we need to consider testing and certification of WS
 devices.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;How do we run tests?<br>&gt;How do we ensure acces=
s to databases of multiple regulatory authorities<br>&gt;in multiple locati=
ons?<br>&gt;How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?<br=
>&gt;Are special back doors required to GDBs?<br>&gt;How do we establish di=
fferent frequency grants for testing purposes?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Requirements:=
<br>&gt;Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:<br>&gt;- test mu=
ltiple locations<br>&gt;- test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs<br>=
&gt;- test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed<br>&gt;- support i=
nternational test houses<br>&gt;<br>&gt;We will need real databases to have=
 special limited backdoor for testing<br>&gt;and certification.<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt;Paul<br>&gt;<br>&gt;_______________________________________________<br>=
&gt;paws mailing list<br>&gt;<a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" href=3D"ma=
ilto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;<a
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br><br>_________________________=
______________________<br>paws mailing list<br><a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org" href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br><br><br></div></div></div></body></html>
---2114655128-786286467-1318393545=:89081--

From peter@spectrumbridge.com  Wed Oct 12 03:41:51 2011
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To: "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 06:42:13 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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Looks good in principle. Covers all the likely activities.  Spelling out th=
e total extent and apportioning them a percentage is a good idea.  Not sure=
 we can charge them 75% of something we were going to do anyway. But there =
will absolutely be some additional effort above and beyond to support Googl=
e.  I agree with sending something to Alan soon with a follow up call. Woul=
d be good to get some insight on how Google thinks.

On Oct 11, 2011, at 10:57 PM, "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@=
nokia.com> wrote:

>=20
> Hi Paul,
>=20
> Your comment below relates to how testing of the protocol between devices
> to databases is done.
> IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.
>=20
> I do see the need for testing to be done in a lab with various location
> settings. But this could potentially be simulated or emulated or
> manipulated with some lab setting.
>=20
> -Raj
>=20
> On 10/11/11 7:21 PM, "ext Paul Lambert" <paul@marvell.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Seems like we need to consider testing and certification of WS devices.
>>=20
>> How do we run tests?
>> How do we ensure access to databases of multiple regulatory authorities
>> in multiple locations?
>> How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?
>> Are special back doors required to GDBs?
>> How do we establish different frequency grants for testing purposes?
>>=20
>> Requirements:
>> Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:
>> - test multiple locations
>> - test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs
>> - test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed
>> - support international test houses
>>=20
>> We will need real databases to have special limited backdoor for testing
>> and certification.
>>=20
>> Paul
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> paws mailing list
>> paws@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
To: <mksaji@yahoo.com>, <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, <paul@marvell.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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=D8  testing of white space radios, and certifying those. Where do these fi=
t in? Is it in the scope of IEEE 802.22?
If the technology to be used in the WS is WiFi, then I believe it is in sco=
pe of WiFi Alliance, www.wi-fi.org<http://www.wi-fi.org>
If the technology is going to be some 3G/4G cellular, then I believe it fal=
ls under the scope of 3GPP.
If the technology will be 802.22, then they'll have to find a certification=
 body. Etc.

I am not sure how much ietf can help in setting up the testbed for the cert=
ification. The protocol we are supposed to work on will be able to carry lo=
cation, but how that location is determined by the client (pre-configuratio=
n, GPS, other, etc) is out of paws scope. Same for frequency grants.


-          Gabor

From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=
 M.K.Sajeev sajeev
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:26 PM
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paul@marvell.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS

Hi,

Scenarios mentioned here looks like end to end testing of white space radio=
s, and certifying those. Where do these fit in? Is it in the scope of IEEE =
802.22?

Best Regards,

Sajeev Manikkoth


________________________________
From: "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>
To: paul@marvell.com; paws@ietf.org
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2011, 8:23
Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS


Hi Paul,

Your comment below relates to how testing of the protocol between devices
to databases is done.
IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.

I do see the need for testing to be done in a lab with various location
settings. But this could potentially be simulated or emulated or
manipulated with some lab setting.

-Raj

On 10/11/11 7:21 PM, "ext Paul Lambert" <paul@marvell.com<mailto:paul@marve=
ll.com>> wrote:

>Seems like we need to consider testing and certification of WS devices.
>
>How do we run tests?
>How do we ensure access to databases of multiple regulatory authorities
>in multiple locations?
>How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?
>Are special back doors required to GDBs?
>How do we establish different frequency grants for testing purposes?
>
>Requirements:
>Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:
>- test multiple locations
>- test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs
>- test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed
>- support international test houses
>
>We will need real databases to have special limited backdoor for testing
>and certification.
>
>Paul
>
>_______________________________________________
>paws mailing list
>paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1;background:white">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:black"><spa=
n style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:black">testing of white=
 space radios, and certifying those. Where do these fit in? Is it in the sc=
ope of IEEE 802.22?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the technology to be u=
sed in the WS is WiFi, then I believe it is in scope of WiFi Alliance,
<a href=3D"http://www.wi-fi.org">www.wi-fi.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the technology is goin=
g to be some 3G/4G cellular, then I believe it falls under the scope of 3GP=
P.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If the technology will be=
 802.22, then they&#8217;ll have to find a certification body. Etc.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am not sure how much ie=
tf can help in setting up the testbed for the certification. The protocol w=
e are supposed to work on will be able to carry location,
 but how that location is determined by the client (pre-configuration, GPS,=
 other, etc) is out of paws scope. Same for frequency grants.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Gabor<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> paws-bou=
nces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext M.K.Sajeev sajeev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paul@marvell.com; paws@ietf.=
org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:blac=
k">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:blac=
k">Scenarios mentioned here looks like end to end testing of white space ra=
dios, and certifying those. Where do these fit in? Is it in the scope of IE=
EE 802.22?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:blac=
k">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><i><span style=3D"color:#=
C00000">Best Regards,</span></i><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><i><=
span style=3D"color:#C00000">Sajeev Manikkoth<br>
</span></i><span style=3D"color:black"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgr=
ound:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;color:black">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"> &quot;Basavar=
aj.Patil@nokia.com&quot;
 &lt;Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>To:</b> paul@marvell.com; paws@ietf.org<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 12 October 2011, 8:23<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS=
<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><br>
<br>
Hi Paul,<br>
<br>
Your comment below relates to how testing of the protocol between devices<b=
r>
to databases is done.<br>
IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.<br>
<br>
I do see the need for testing to be done in a lab with various location<br>
settings. But this could potentially be simulated or emulated or<br>
manipulated with some lab setting.<br>
<br>
-Raj<br>
<br>
On 10/11/11 7:21 PM, &quot;ext Paul Lambert&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pau=
l@marvell.com">paul@marvell.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Seems like we need to consider testing and certification of WS devices.=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;How do we run tests?<br>
&gt;How do we ensure access to databases of multiple regulatory authorities=
<br>
&gt;in multiple locations?<br>
&gt;How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?<br>
&gt;Are special back doors required to GDBs?<br>
&gt;How do we establish different frequency grants for testing purposes?<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Requirements:<br>
&gt;Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:<br>
&gt;- test multiple locations<br>
&gt;- test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs<br>
&gt;- test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed<br>
&gt;- support international test houses<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;We will need real databases to have special limited backdoor for testin=
g<br>
&gt;and certification.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Paul<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;paws mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
paws mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612D88F008AM1MPN1007mgdn_--

From paul@marvell.com  Wed Oct 12 12:13:40 2011
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From: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
To: "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:13:33 -0700
Thread-Topic: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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> IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.
Perhaps - but the testability of the system has some unique issues.  Some o=
f the solutions might include modifications to the protocol.

Paul


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:54 PM
> To: Paul Lambert; paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
>=20
>=20
> Hi Paul,
>=20
> Your comment below relates to how testing of the protocol between
> devices
> to databases is done.
> IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.
>=20
> I do see the need for testing to be done in a lab with various location
> settings. But this could potentially be simulated or emulated or
> manipulated with some lab setting.
>=20
> -Raj
>=20
> On 10/11/11 7:21 PM, "ext Paul Lambert" <paul@marvell.com> wrote:
>=20
> >Seems like we need to consider testing and certification of WS
> devices.
> >
> >How do we run tests?
> >How do we ensure access to databases of multiple regulatory
> authorities
> >in multiple locations?
> >How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?
> >Are special back doors required to GDBs?
> >How do we establish different frequency grants for testing purposes?
> >
> >Requirements:
> >Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:
> >- test multiple locations
> >- test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs
> >- test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed
> >- support international test houses
> >
> >We will need real databases to have special limited backdoor for
> testing
> >and certification.
> >
> >Paul
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >paws mailing list
> >paws@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:21:35 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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<as individual>
Having looked into this a bit, my opinion is that the protocol does not nee=
d any special facility to support this kind of testing.  If you think it do=
es, perhaps an example would be helpful.

Brian

On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Paul Lambert wrote:

>> IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.
> Perhaps - but the testability of the system has some unique issues.  Some=
 of the solutions might include modifications to the protocol.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:54 PM
>> To: Paul Lambert; paws@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hi Paul,
>>=20
>> Your comment below relates to how testing of the protocol between
>> devices
>> to databases is done.
>> IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.
>>=20
>> I do see the need for testing to be done in a lab with various location
>> settings. But this could potentially be simulated or emulated or
>> manipulated with some lab setting.
>>=20
>> -Raj
>>=20
>> On 10/11/11 7:21 PM, "ext Paul Lambert" <paul@marvell.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Seems like we need to consider testing and certification of WS
>> devices.
>>>=20
>>> How do we run tests?
>>> How do we ensure access to databases of multiple regulatory
>> authorities
>>> in multiple locations?
>>> How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?
>>> Are special back doors required to GDBs?
>>> How do we establish different frequency grants for testing purposes?
>>>=20
>>> Requirements:
>>> Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:
>>> - test multiple locations
>>> - test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs
>>> - test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed
>>> - support international test houses
>>>=20
>>> We will need real databases to have special limited backdoor for
>> testing
>>> and certification.
>>>=20
>>> Paul
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> paws mailing list
>>> paws@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


From Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com  Wed Oct 12 15:16:48 2011
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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Requirements
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I forwarded the below initial list of requirements to the list a while ago,=
 but there was no discussions on them.=20
We got today a set of additional requirements from the 802.11af folks (see =
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/paws/current/msg00434.html). If there =
are no objections, I'd like to ask the Editor to include both these set of =
requirements to the new version of draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rq=
mts-00.

- Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Baj=
ko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley)
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 12:55 PM
To: paws@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] Requirements

Folks,

If you'll read this draft, you'll notice that section 6, the requirements s=
ection, is empty. During the Quebec meeting we agreed that these requiremen=
ts will be reformulated and discussed on the list before including them ont=
o the draft. I made a first attempt to reformulate the requirements and I'd=
 like to post them to the list to start a discussion on them. There are lot=
s of requirements still missing, so I'd welcome proposals for additional re=
quirements, as well as comments to these requirements:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Requirements

D. Data Model Requirements:

D.1: The Data Model MUST support specifying the antenna height parameter of=
 the subject

D.2: The data model MUST support specifying an ID of the subject. This ID w=
ould be the ID of the device used to be certified by a regulatory body for =
a regulatory domain

D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the subject and=
 accuracy of location determination

D.4: The Data Model MUST support specifying a list of available channel lis=
t and time constrains for the channel list availability.

D.5: The Data Model MUST support specifying the maximum output power of the=
 subject.

D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability informatio=
n for multiple locations.

D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability informatio=
n for an area around a specified location.


P. Protocol Requirements:

P.1: The protocol MUST provide a mechanism for the subject to discover the =
WS Database it has to use at a given location.

P.2: The protocol MUST support regulatory domain discovery.

P.3: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUST suppor=
t pushing updates in channel availability changes to subjects=20

P.4: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUST suppor=
t mutual authentication and authorization.

P.5: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUST suppor=
t integrity and confidentiality protection.

P.6: The protocol MUST support both username/password and digital certifica=
tes based authentication.


O. Operational Requirements:

O.1: A master device MUST query the WS Database for the available channels =
as often as required by the regulation (eg, FCC requires once per day) to v=
erify that the operating=20

channels continue to remain available.

O.2: A master device MUST determine its location with the accuracy required=
 by the regulation (eg, FCC requires +/- 100m) before placing a query to th=
e DB

O.3: A master device which changes its location during its operation, MUST =
query the WS Database for available operating channels each time it moves m=
ore than the distance=20

specified by the regulation (eg FCC specifies 100m) from the location it pr=
eviously made the query from.

O.4: The WS Database MUST provide the available channel list when requested=
 and MAY also provide time constraints for the channel list and maximum out=
put power to the master=20

device.

O.5: A master device MUST query the WS Database and include the FCC ID of t=
he slave device in the query before allowing the slave device to use the av=
ailable channel.

O.6: A master device MUST be capable to validate the digital certificate of=
 the WS Database.

O.7: A master device MUST be capable to check the validity of the WS Databa=
se certificate and whether it has been revoked or not.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
-Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=
 internet-drafts@ietf.org
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 10:08 AM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] I-D Action: draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-00.=
txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Protocol to Access WS database Workin=
g Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Protocol to Access White Space database: PS, use cases a=
nd rqmts
	Author(s)       : Scott Probasco
                          Gabor Bajko
                          Basavaraj Patil
                          Brian Rosen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-00.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2011-09-09

   Portions of the radio spectrum that are allocated to a licensed,
   primary user but are unused or unoccupied at specific locations and
   times are defined as &quot;white space&quot;.  The concept of allowing
   secondary transmissions (licensed or unlicensed) in white space is a
   technique to &quot;unlock&quot; existing spectrum for new use.  An obvio=
us
   requirement is that these secondary transmissions do not interfere
   with the primary use of the spectrum.  One approach to using the
   white space spectrum at a given time and location is to verify with a
   database available channels.

   This document describes the concept of TV White Spaces.  It also
   describes the problems that need to be addressed for enabling the use
   of the primary user owned white space spectrum for secondary users,
   without causing interference, by querying a database which knows the
   channel availability at any given location and time.  A number of
   possible use cases of this spectrum and derived requirements are also
   described.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-r=
qmts-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rq=
mts-00.txt
_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
To: <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>, <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Pete,
If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be different, =
please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to the list.
-Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=
 Peter McCann
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco S=
cott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting

Hi, Raj,

I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change along the=
 lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in step 8:

   8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
       transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
       device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn, queries
       the database for a list of channels available at the slaves'
       geolocation.

What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each of the d=
evices could have independent Internet access and be capable of querying th=
e database itself.  There could be one BS that handles all the queries or t=
he individual BSs could query themselves (each for their own location) and =
they could compare notes to find a common free channel.

As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have a requ=
irement that the protocol carry multiple location elements (instead of just=
 one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries across the Internet.  Th=
e WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection test at each location, could a=
dditionally do a set intersection test on the remaining free channels and r=
eturn the results.  That's one concrete way that this use case may impact t=
he protocol specification.

-Pete

Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote:
>=20
> Pete,
>=20
> If multiple BS' co-ordinate among themselves (master-slave
> relationship) and only the master BS sends the query, then that use-=20
> case is beyond the scope of the PAWS charter.
> The protocol that is being specified is the one between this master-BS=20
> (or master WS device) and the database.
> If a network has multiple BS' and there exists co-ordination between=20
> them, with only one of the BS' having the authority to query the=20
> database that=B9s fine. Because it is invisible to the protocol that we=20
> are defining in PAWS.
>=20
> -Raj
>=20
> On 9/14/11 12:13 PM, "ext Peter McCann" <Peter.McCann@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi, Gerald,
>>=20
>> I think what Scott is asking about is coordination in access to the=20
>> channel after it has been cleared for use by the WSDB.
>>=20
>> It seems like you are asking about how to coordinate the assignment=20
>> of the channel among all the different BS.  I agree that one BS could=20
>> act as the "master", collecting information from the peer BSs and=20
>> presenting it all to the WSDB in a query for a vacant channel.  Isn't=20
>> this the same as the existing WRAN use case in Section 4.3?  Or is=20
>> there some difference due to the fact that all the BSs are "Master"
>> devices?
>>=20
>> -Pete
>>=20
>> Gerald Chouinard wrote:
>>> Scott, Peter,
>>>=20
>>> One way to provide such a coordination would be to nominate one BS=20
>>> in an area as the master BS that would query the DB for itself and=20
>>> on behalf of the other 'slave' BSs.  Coordination could then be done=20
>>> locally by the master BS by sending a filtered version of the=20
>>> available channels list as received from the DB to the appropriate=20
>>> slave BS.
>>>=20
>>> Unfortunately,it is still not clear whether the regulations in the=20
>>> various countries will allow such 'proxying' of TVBD's by other=20
>>> TVBD's and that this will not pose security problems.  If it is=20
>>> allowed everywhere and appropriate security can be achieved, then=20
>>> such coordination could be transparent to the DB since it would take=20
>>> place at the master BS without the DB having to know about it.
>>> It would only know that a BS is asking for the channels availability=20
>>> on behalf of other BSs.
>>>=20
>>> Gerald
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> At 15:40 14-09-11 +0000, scott.probasco@nokia.com wrote:
>>>> Hi Pete,
>>>>=20
>>>> There is no coordination aspect to TDD is there? I added TDD=20
>>>> initially to indicate that a single channel is used for operation,=20
>>>> contrasted to the 2 channel requirement for FDD.
>>>>=20
>>>> I believe the use case under discussion is using the channel for=20
>>>> full DL broadcast. It's not so much as coordination, just 100% DL. Rig=
ht?
>>>>=20
>>>> Would help me if you could clarify what spectrum coordination is=20
>>>> happening in this case.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Scott
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 9/14/11 8:20 AM, "ext Peter McCann" <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi, Scott,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> scott.probasco@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thank you Peter & Lei for the more detailed description of the=20
>>>>>> use case. When I look at this case, the question is: can PAWS be=20
>>>>>> used to allow multiple Master devices to knowingly select the=20
>>>>>> same channel for operation. (The discussion of "why" and "is it a=20
>>>>>> good idea" not undertaken here as this likely wanders outside the=20
>>>>>> scope of PAWS).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> One of the proposed solutions is coordination among BSs (external=20
>>>>>> to PAWS). This is already described in section 4.3 Wide-Area or=20
>>>>>> Rural internet broadband access:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Some of the masters/BSs may be deployed and operated by a single=20
>>>>>>> entity, i.e. there can be centralized coordination between these=20
>>>>>>> masters/BSs,...
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Further, you note the difference is in TDD:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The BS in this scenario use a TDD radio Technology
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Would it be appropriate and acceptable to WG members to add=20
>>>>>> "typically" such as:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The BS in this scenario typically uses a TDD radio Technology...
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Does this enable the use case you are describing?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Maybe we could say:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The BS in this scenario typically use a TDD radio technology or=20
>>>>> other means to coordinate use of the selected spectrum.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 9/13/11 12:37 PM, "ext Peter McCann"
>>>>>> <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I've been interacting with Zhu Lei off-list about his third use=20
>>>>>>> case, and I think it would be a possible candidate for inclusion=20
>>>>>>> in the document if it were properly explained.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Generally (as opposed to specifically for the LTE MBMS case),=20
>>>>>>> the problem is to find a common bit of spectrum that is=20
>>>>>>> available over a wide area that can be used by multiple master=20
>>>>>>> BSs to simultaneously broadcast the same signal to a set of receive=
rs.
>>>>>>> This is somewhat similar to the wide-area rural coverage=20
>>>>>>> scenario currently described in the working group document;=20
>>>>>>> however, there would be multiple Master BSs, each of which would=20
>>>>>>> independently query the WSDB for available spectrum.  However,=20
>>>>>>> they need to coordinate the assignment so that they all get the=20
>>>>>>> same spectrum over the whole area. As an implementation example,=20
>>>>>>> this could be achieved by each BS reporting the same=20
>>>>>>> owner/operator and using a key or index value to indicate that=20
>>>>>>> they wanted to coordinate the assignment. Alternatively, you=20
>>>>>>> might be able to elect one BS as the leader and collect location=20
>>>>>>> information from all the other BSs and then coordinate the=20
>>>>>>> assignment similar to the use case in 4.2; the difference would=20
>>>>>>> be that the resulting assignment is for simultaneous (not TDD)=20
>>>>>>> use by all of the BSs covering the wider area.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Does this sound like an interesting and novel use case?  If so I=20
>>>>>>> can do a more detailed writeup and supply ASCII art for the draft.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Peter J. McCann
>>>>>>> Huawei Technologies (USA)
>>>>>>> Peter.McCann@Huawei.com
>>>>>>> +1 908 541 3563
>>>>>>> Rm. C-0105, 400 Crossings Blvd. (2nd floor), Bridgewater, NJ
>>>>>>> 08807-2863 USA

_______________________________________________
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From: "Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com>
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Hi Raj,

=20

The requirement for the protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP
limits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each
frequency band, for master devices and for client devices (these are the
client spectrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

=20

So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the
(device-2-database) protocol as a result of the need for various
spectrum masks?

=20

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

=20

In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY,
with several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz,
in several TV bands (VHF and UHF).

=20

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:

                1 - Lowest applicable frequency in MHz

                2 - Highest applicable frequency in MHz

                3 - Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined
by the spectrum mask

                4 - General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit
power in EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly
interpolated between adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed
like IEEE 802.11p Annex I
[http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or FCC
47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).=20

                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP
measurements

=20

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the
database to perform more accurate interference calculations.

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

_______________________________________________ paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws=20


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space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Raj,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The requirement for the =
protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP limits that will not be =
exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequency band, for master =
devices and for client devices (these are the client spectrum masks I =
will permit to operate under my control).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>petere<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706 </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without =
Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM<br><b>To:</b> Peter =
Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] =
Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth =
radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>So what would be the requirement =
that we can specify for the (device-2-database) protocol as a result of =
the need for various spectrum masks?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From: =
</span></b><span style=3D'color:black'>&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine =
(pecclesi)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:=
 </b>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: =
</b>[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth =
radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>In IEEE =
802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, with =
several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in =
several TV bands (VHF and UHF).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>We see the need to tell =
the database several spectrum masks, each with:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 &#8211; Lowest applicable =
frequency in MHz</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 &#8211; Highest applicable =
frequency in MHz</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 &#8211; Maximum total EIRP =
over the frequency range defined by the spectrum mask</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 &#8211; General spectrum =
mask in dBr from peak transmit power in EIRP, with specific power limit =
at any frequency linearly interpolated between adjacent points of the =
spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p Annex I [<a =
href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf">h=
ttp://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf</a>] or =
FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m). </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5- measurement resolution =
bandwidth for EIRP measurements</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; This detailed actual spectrum =
occupancy information allows the database to perform more accurate =
interference calculations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>petere<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>P=
eter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>M=
S SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706 </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>P=
h 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&=
quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; =
U.C.C. 1-207</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>__________________________________=
_____________ paws mailing list <a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/paws</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: "Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:20:50 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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References: <30D62D93EA229643933BE9BF324FD1F30CF5ED53@xmb-sjc-22b.amer.cisco.com> <CABA73C2.12008%basavaraj.patil@nokia.com> <30D62D93EA229643933BE9BF324FD1F30CF5EFDF@xmb-sjc-22b.amer.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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--_000_9230B5FFF42D48449D50B40CFA2E9118neustarbiz_
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Yeah, I think some form of power level on the input is needed, and I think =
some form of power output is needed.

I think we need to figure out if this is an actual watt value, or rather an=
 enumerated list + registry that accounts for differences in each nation's =
regulations.

Brian

On Oct 12, 2011, at 6:35 PM, Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) wrote:

Hi Raj,

The requirement for the protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP li=
mits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequenc=
y band, for master devices and for client devices (these are the client spe=
ctrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com<mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com> [mailto:B=
asavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios


So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-data=
base) protocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com<mailto:pecclesi@=
cisco.com>>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, wit=
h several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in seve=
ral TV bands (VHF and UHF).

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:
                1 =96 Lowest applicable frequency in MHz
                2 =96 Highest applicable frequency in MHz
                3 =96 Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined b=
y the spectrum mask
                4 =96 General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power=
 in EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated =
between adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p A=
nnex I [http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or =
FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the database =
to perform more accurate interference calculations.

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
_______________________________________________ paws mailing list paws@ietf=
.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


--_000_9230B5FFF42D48449D50B40CFA2E9118neustarbiz_
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<html><head><base href=3D"x-msg://1358/"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: b=
reak-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;=
 ">Yeah, I think some form of power level on the input is needed, and I thi=
nk some form of power output is needed.<div><br></div><div>I think we need =
to figure out if this is an actual watt value, or rather an enumerated list=
 + registry that accounts for differences in each nation's regulations.</di=
v><div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 12, 2011, a=
t 6:35 PM, Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interc=
hange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" s=
tyle=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: norm=
al; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line=
-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; te=
xt-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -web=
kit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -=
webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mod=
e: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class=3D"WordSectio=
n1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-ri=
ght: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Hi=
 Raj,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0=
in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; mar=
gin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The requirement=
 for the protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP limits that will =
not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequency band, for mas=
ter devices and for client devices (these are the client spectrum masks I w=
ill permit to operate under my control).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=
=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;=
 font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); ">petere<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Peter E=
cclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-fam=
ily: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span=
></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); ">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706</=
span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;=
 color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-to=
p: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-=
size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
0pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Ph 408/527-=
0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: '=
Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div=
></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); ">"Time doesn't fool around."&nbsp; "Without Prejudice" U.=
C.C. 1-207</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></div><div><div style=3D"border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: n=
one; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial;=
 border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-=
width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padd=
ing-left: 0in; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-l=
eft: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-s=
erif; ">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma=
, sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> [mailto=
:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesd=
ay, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; mar=
gin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D=
"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margi=
n-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; ">So what would be the requir=
ement that we can specify for the (device-2-database) protocol as a result =
of the need for various spectrum masks?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-b=
ottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>=
</div><div style=3D"border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; bo=
rder-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border=
-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-lef=
t: 0in; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0i=
n; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; "><b><span style=3D"color: black; ">From:<span class=3D"Apple-converted=
-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"color: black; ">"ext Peter E=
cclesine (pecclesi)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com" style=3D"col=
or: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">pecclesi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Da=
te:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 =
19:52:32 -0700<br><b>To:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=
</b>"<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration=
: underline; ">paws@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" styl=
e=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Subject:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>[paws] Seve=
ral spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios<o:p></o:p></span></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in=
; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;=
 margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color: black; ">In IEEE 802.11af discu=
ssions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, with several occupied ban=
dwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in several TV bands (VHF and =
UHF).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0=
in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color: black; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0=
in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; "><span style=3D"color: black; ">We see the need to tell the database =
several spectrum masks, each with:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;=
 font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 =96 Lowest applicable frequency in M=
Hz</span><span style=3D"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=
=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =96 Highest applicable freque=
ncy in MHz</span><span style=3D"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><di=
v style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bot=
tom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 =96 Maximum total EIRP=
 over the frequency range defined by the spectrum mask</span><span style=3D=
"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; mar=
gin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125)=
; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 =96 General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit p=
ower in EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly interpola=
ted between adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.1=
1p Annex I [<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11=
p-2010.pdf" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://stan=
dards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf</a>] or FCC 47 C.F.R. 9=
0.210(m).</span><span style=3D"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bott=
om: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span st=
yle=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5- measurement resolution=
 bandwidth for EIRP measurements</span><span style=3D"color: black; "><o:p>=
</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin=
-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span=
><span style=3D"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margi=
n-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color: b=
lack; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information al=
lows the database to perform more accurate interference calculations.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-=
left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; "><span style=3D"color: black; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></div>=
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-=
bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><spa=
n style=3D"color: black; ">petere<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"marg=
in-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">Peter Ecclesine, =
Technology Analyst</span><span style=3D"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span><=
/div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; ma=
rgin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: bla=
ck; ">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0i=
n; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/52=
5-9256</span><span style=3D"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom:=
 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">"Time =
doesn't fool around."&nbsp; "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt=
; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.5pt; color: black; ">_____________________________________________=
__ paws mailing list<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underli=
ne; ">paws@ietf.org</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" style=3D"color: blue;=
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From paul@marvell.com  Wed Oct 12 16:29:30 2011
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From: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:28:36 -0700
Thread-Topic: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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References: <7BAC95F5A7E67643AAFB2C31BEE662D0141EAD8E9E@SC-VEXCH2.marvell.com> <CABA6AD2.11FF9%basavaraj.patil@nokia.com> <7BAC95F5A7E67643AAFB2C31BEE662D0141EAD9058@SC-VEXCH2.marvell.com> <57901E01-976B-4315-BA06-16643D3E47E9@neustar.biz>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
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Humm ... seems like this could all be done with backdoors in the implementa=
tion or agreements on identified trusted database authorizes to provide tes=
ting facilities.


Paul


Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:22 PM
> To: Paul Lambert
> Cc: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
>=20
> <as individual>
> Having looked into this a bit, my opinion is that the protocol does not
> need any special facility to support this kind of testing.  If you
> think it does, perhaps an example would be helpful.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> On Oct 12, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Paul Lambert wrote:
>=20
> >> IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.
> > Perhaps - but the testability of the system has some unique issues.
> Some of the solutions might include modifications to the protocol.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:54 PM
> >> To: Paul Lambert; paws@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [paws] Testing and certification for devices using PAWS
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> Your comment below relates to how testing of the protocol between
> >> devices
> >> to databases is done.
> >> IMO this is beyond the scope of the actual protocol itself.
> >>
> >> I do see the need for testing to be done in a lab with various
> location
> >> settings. But this could potentially be simulated or emulated or
> >> manipulated with some lab setting.
> >>
> >> -Raj
> >>
> >> On 10/11/11 7:21 PM, "ext Paul Lambert" <paul@marvell.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Seems like we need to consider testing and certification of WS
> >> devices.
> >>>
> >>> How do we run tests?
> >>> How do we ensure access to databases of multiple regulatory
> >> authorities
> >>> in multiple locations?
> >>> How do we control location? Can location be set for testing?
> >>> Are special back doors required to GDBs?
> >>> How do we establish different frequency grants for testing
> purposes?
> >>>
> >>> Requirements:
> >>> Device-to-GDB must have facilities for testing to:
> >>> - test multiple locations
> >>> - test multiple GBD and Regional Authority GDBs
> >>> - test various frequency grants from a fixed testbed
> >>> - support international test houses
> >>>
> >>> We will need real databases to have special limited backdoor for
> >> testing
> >>> and certification.
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> paws mailing list
> >>> paws@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > paws mailing list
> > paws@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


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From: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:09:11 -0700
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Interesting reference for data in FCC WS Databases:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/white_space_xml/

Paul


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<p class=3DMsoNormal>Interesting reference for data in FCC WS Databases:<o:=
p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><a
href=3D"http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/white_space_xml/">http://ww=
w.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/white_space_xml/</a><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Paul<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

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Subject: [paws] Mobility Use Case
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Hi,

I have not seen any comments on the mobility use case below. If the work
group is OK with the use case, it will be included in the next update of
the draft.

Regards,
Scott



On 9/30/11 7:12 AM, "ext scott.probasco@nokia.com"
<scott.probasco@nokia.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Here is draft text for the mobility use case.
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>In this use case, the user has a non-fixed (portable or mobile) device and
>is riding in a vehicle. The user wants to have connectivity to another
>device which is also moving. Typical deployment scenarios include urban
>areas and rural areas where the user may connect to other users in
>peer-to-peer or ad-hoc networks. This deployment scenario is typically
>characterized by a master device with low antenna height, internet
>connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space, and
>some means to predict its path of mobility. This knowledge of mobility
>could be simple (GPS plus accelerometer), sophisticated (GPS plus routing
>and mapping function) or completely specified by the user via
>user-interface.
>
>
>A simplified operational scenario utilizing TV white space to provide
>peer-to-peer connectivity service in a mobility environment consists of
>the following steps:
>
>1. The mobile master device powers up with its WS radio in idle or listen
>mode only (no active transmission on the WS frequency band).
>
>2. The mobile master has internet connectivity and establishes a
>connection to a trusted white space database (see use case "TVWS database
>discovery above).
>
>3. The mobile master registers its current geolocation, address contact
>information, etc. associated with the owner/operator of the master with
>the trusted database administrator (if not currently registered).
>
>4. Following the registration process, the mobile master will send a query
>to the trusted database requesting a list of available WS channels based
>upon its current location and a prediction of its future location,
>extrapolated from the motion or mobility of the device. The current
>location is specified in latitude and longitude. The method to specify the
>future location is TBD, potential methods include movement vector
>(direction and velocity), a set of latitude/longitude points which specify
>a closed polygon where the future location is within the polygon, or
>similar.
>
>5. If the mobile master has been previously authenticated, the database
>responds with a list of available white space channels that the mobile
>master may use, and optional information which may include (1) a duration
>of time for the use of each channel (2) a maximum transmit power for each
>channel.
>
>6. Once the mobile master authenticates the WS channel list response
>message from the database, the master selects an available WS channel from
>the list for use.
>
>7. The other user device in the peer-to-peer connection scans the TV bands
>to locate a mobile master transmission, and associates with the mobile
>master. The slave/user device queries the master for a channel list, based
>on the slave's device identification, geolocation and optionally a
>prediction of its future location.
>
>8. If required by local regulation, the master device verifies the slave's
>device identification with the database.
>
>8. If allowed by local regulation (e.g. the slave's device identification
>is verified by the database), the mobile master provides the list of
>channels locally available to the slave/user device. If the channel that
>the slave/user terminal is currently using is not included in the list of
>locally available channels, the slave/user device ceases all operation on
>its current channel. The slave/user device may scan for another Master's
>transmission on a different channel.
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
>This represents only one of many possible use case scenarios. Looking
>forward to the group's discussion.
>
>
>Regards,
>Scott
>
>
>On 9/22/11 5:59 PM, "ext Peter Stanforth" <peter@spectrumbridge.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Thanks Scott
>>Your suggestions sound good to me. The third suggestion came from
>>conversations we have had with government agencies, it is not part of any
>>current White Space regulation. The politicians and the bureaucrats both
>>suggested that the way that government spectrum would be made available
>>on
>>a secondary basis (similar to white space) would be if the agency got
>>compensated for it's use.
>>Peter S.
>>
>>On ThuSep/22/11 Thu Sep 22, 3:01 PM, "scott.probasco@nokia.com"
>><scott.probasco@nokia.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Hi Peter,
>>>
>>>Good comments. Reviewing them one by one...
>>>
>>>First. We will re-write the location based service use case to be a
>>>generic "regulatory requirement" use case, focusing on the registration
>>>information as you suggest.
>>>
>>>Second. Ability to withdraw permission is essentially same as the "kill
>>>switch" described by Ofcom in their "Implementing Geolocation" document.
>>>We proposed to add this either as a separate use case or included it to
>>>an
>>>existing use case.
>>>
>>>Third. We generally agree with the principle and would like to include
>>>the
>>>capability. Probably the question will be asked if this is in scope. We
>>>would like to identify a regulator who has indicated a need or desire
>>>for
>>>this.
>>>
>>>Fourth. We will include a new use case for mobility, FCC has already
>>>identified this as a valid use case.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Scott & Raj
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 9/15/11 10:12 AM, "ext Peter Stanforth" <peter@spectrumbridge.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have a number of comments on the use cases proposed in the draft.
>>>>
>>>>First the location based service seems too specific to an advertising
>>>>model as opposed to a more generic case of an edge device (slave)
>>>>requesting the location information about a serving master device from
>>>>the
>>>>DB. There may well be other reasons for the slave to request
>>>>information
>>>>about the master. One instance I can think of is to determine who owns
>>>>the
>>>>master (registration information) it may be that the slave only trusts
>>>>certain masters or has a cost basis to chose one available master over
>>>>Another.
>>>>
>>>>Second. The whole concept is predicated on an ability to provide access
>>>>to
>>>>spectrum into the future. I believe that much spectrum (owned by
>>>>emergency
>>>>services, defense agencies and others) will not be made available
>>>>without
>>>>an ability to withdraw the permission should a predefined emergency
>>>>situation emerge. There are several ways to address this requirement
>>>>but
>>>>I
>>>>think
>>>>a use case that considers such a scenario is required.
>>>>
>>>>Third, Access to spectrum, as a licensed or unlicensed device, may
>>>>require
>>>>payment. It seems highly likely that government agencies (spectrum
>>>>holders) will need to be
>>>>persuaded to make spectrum available. This may be in the form of the
>>>>Agency/holder getting some compensation for the use of the spectrum.
>>>>This
>>>>would
>>>>require that use of the spectrum be tracked such that some backend
>>>>billing
>>>>or clearing house system could deal with payments.
>>>>
>>>>Fourth, The concept of mobility is not described. Mobility could be
>>>>addressed by providing a vector or an area to the DB which would result
>>>>in
>>>>a set of available channels being delivered.
>>>>
>>>>Finally there is no "White Space" only shades of grey. So I think it is
>>>>important to consider
>>>>that not all spectrum is equal and that the DB may have to provide some
>>>>weighting or other
>>>>Criteria to describe suitability of the available channels for use.
>>>>Note
>>>>that this is unrelated
>>>>to any Co-existence criteria.
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Peter Stanforth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>paws mailing list
>>>>paws@ietf.org
>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>paws mailing list
>paws@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


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From: <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>
To: <pecclesi@cisco.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:01:12 +0000
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X-Nokia-AV: Clean
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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Hi Peter,

So how about the following text that we could add in the requirements secti=
on of the I-D:


-          A white space master device should provide to the database in th=
e query a description of the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for each=
 occupied bandwidth in the set of frequency bands.

You indicated that this is applicable to master devices and client devices.=
 How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master device that i=
s generally making a query to the database. Clients devices can no doubt ma=
ke the query as well, but would this requirement be applicable in such a ca=
se?

-Raj

From: ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

Hi Raj,

The requirement for the protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP li=
mits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequenc=
y band, for master devices and for client devices (these are the client spe=
ctrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com<mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com> [mailto:B=
asavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]<mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios


So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-data=
base) protocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com<mailto:pecclesi@=
cisco.com>>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, wit=
h several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in seve=
ral TV bands (VHF and UHF).

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:
                1 - Lowest applicable frequency in MHz
                2 - Highest applicable frequency in MHz
                3 - Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined by =
the spectrum mask
                4 - General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power i=
n EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated be=
tween adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p Ann=
ex I [http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or FC=
C 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the database =
to perform more accurate interference calculations.

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
_______________________________________________ paws mailing list paws@ietf=
.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Peter,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So how about the follo=
wing text that we could add in the requirements section of the I-D:<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">A white space =
master device should provide to the database in the query a description of =
the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in th=
e set of frequency bands.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You indicated that thi=
s is applicable to master devices and client devices. How is it relevant fo=
r client devices? It is only the master device that is generally making a q=
uery to the database. Clients devices
 can no doubt make the query as well, but would this requirement be applica=
ble in such a case?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">-Raj<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ext Pete=
r Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Raj,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The requirement for th=
e protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP limits that will not be =
exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequency band, for master dev=
ices and for client devices (these are
 the client spectrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">petere<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&q=
uot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, =
CA 95134-1706
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quo=
t;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&quot;Time doesn't fool aro=
und.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> =
<a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]">
[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paw=
s@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">So what=
 would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-database) p=
rotocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radio=
s<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">In IEEE 802.11af discuss=
ions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, with several occupied bandw=
idths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in several TV bands (VHF and UH=
F).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">We see the need to tell =
the database several spectrum masks, each with:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 &#82=
11; Lowest applicable frequency in MHz</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 &#82=
11; Highest applicable frequency in MHz</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 &#82=
11; Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined by the spectrum mas=
k</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 &#82=
11; General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power in EIRP, with spe=
cific power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated between adjacent p=
oints of the spectrum mask, expressed like
 IEEE 802.11p Annex I [<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/down=
load/802.11p-2010.pdf">http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11=
p-2010.pdf</a>] or FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5- mea=
surement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;<=
/span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; This detail=
ed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the database to perform mor=
e accurate interference calculations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">petere<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><=
span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA=
 95134-1706
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&quot;Time doesn't fool aroun=
d.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">_______=
________________________________________ paws mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Thread-Topic: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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From: "Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com>
To: <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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Hi Raj,

=20

>> How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master device
that is generally making a query to the database. Clients devices can no
doubt make the query as well, but would this requirement be applicable
in such a case?<<

=20

   The database either makes assumptions about the transmissions of all
client devices, or it can be informed what emissions the client devices
will not exceed (because the master device will not allow clients to
exceed specified limits).=20

=20

   The general case is not all devices transmit with the same masks -
relatively loose-masked inexpensive devices can joint networks
controlled by higher-specification master devices - e.g., outdoor muni
wi-fi.

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:01 AM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

Hi Peter,

=20

So how about the following text that we could add in the requirements
section of the I-D:

=20

-          A white space master device should provide to the database in
the query a description of the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for
each occupied bandwidth in the set of frequency bands.=20

=20

You indicated that this is applicable to master devices and client
devices. How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master
device that is generally making a query to the database. Clients devices
can no doubt make the query as well, but would this requirement be
applicable in such a case?

=20

-Raj

=20

From: ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

Hi Raj,

=20

The requirement for the protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP
limits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each
frequency band, for master devices and for client devices (these are the
client spectrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

=20

So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the
(device-2-database) protocol as a result of the need for various
spectrum masks?

=20

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

=20

In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY,
with several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz,
in several TV bands (VHF and UHF).

=20

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:

                1 - Lowest applicable frequency in MHz

                2 - Highest applicable frequency in MHz

                3 - Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined
by the spectrum mask

                4 - General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit
power in EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly
interpolated between adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed
like IEEE 802.11p Annex I
[http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or FCC
47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).=20

                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP
measurements

=20

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the
database to perform more accurate interference calculations.

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

_______________________________________________ paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws=20


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Raj,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&gt;&gt;</span><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'> How is it relevant for client devices? It is =
only the master device that is generally making a query to the database. =
Clients devices can no doubt make the query as well, but would this =
requirement be applicable in such a =
case?&lt;&lt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
database either makes assumptions about the transmissions of all client =
devices, or it can be informed what emissions the client devices will =
not exceed (because the master device will not allow clients to exceed =
specified limits). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; The general =
case is not all devices transmit with the same masks &#8211; relatively =
loose-masked inexpensive devices can joint networks controlled by =
higher-specification master devices &#8211; e.g., outdoor muni =
wi-fi.</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>petere<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706 </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without =
Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:01 AM<br><b>To:</b> Peter =
Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] =
Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth =
radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Peter,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>So how about the =
following text that we could add in the requirements section of the =
I-D:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>A white =
space master device should provide to the database in the query a =
description of the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for each =
occupied bandwidth in the set of frequency bands. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>You indicated that this =
is applicable to master devices and client devices. How is it relevant =
for client devices? It is only the master device that is generally =
making a query to the database. Clients devices can no doubt make the =
query as well, but would this requirement be applicable in such a =
case?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>-Raj<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> Patil =
Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth =
radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Raj,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The requirement for the =
protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP limits that will not be =
exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequency band, for master =
devices and for client devices (these are the client spectrum masks I =
will permit to operate under my control).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>petere<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706 </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without =
Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]">[mailto:Basavaraj.Pati=
l@nokia.com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth =
radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>So what would be the requirement =
that we can specify for the (device-2-database) protocol as a result of =
the need for various spectrum masks?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From: =
</span></b><span style=3D'color:black'>&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine =
(pecclesi)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:=
 </b>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: =
</b>[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth =
radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>In IEEE =
802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, with =
several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in =
several TV bands (VHF and UHF).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>We see the need to tell =
the database several spectrum masks, each with:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 &#8211; Lowest applicable =
frequency in MHz</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 &#8211; Highest applicable =
frequency in MHz</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 &#8211; Maximum total EIRP =
over the frequency range defined by the spectrum mask</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 &#8211; General spectrum =
mask in dBr from peak transmit power in EIRP, with specific power limit =
at any frequency linearly interpolated between adjacent points of the =
spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p Annex I [<a =
href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf">h=
ttp://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf</a>] or =
FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m). </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5- measurement resolution =
bandwidth for EIRP measurements</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; This detailed actual spectrum =
occupancy information allows the database to perform more accurate =
interference calculations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>petere<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>P=
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From: <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>
To: <pecclesi@cisco.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
Thread-Index: AcyIif0iCZ0iSWcPRNy/1BOX+QJ5Hf//lS2A//5MhED//TS5YP/4XdVA//C4ExA=
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:41:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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Hi Peter,

The database making assumptions about the transmissions of client devices i=
s not a good idea. It is preferable for the master device to inform the DB =
about client device transmission limits that it will enforce.

Thanks for the clarification.

-Raj

From: ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 3:36 PM
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

Hi Raj,

>> How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master device that=
 is generally making a query to the database. Clients devices can no doubt =
make the query as well, but would this requirement be applicable in such a =
case?<<

   The database either makes assumptions about the transmissions of all cli=
ent devices, or it can be informed what emissions the client devices will n=
ot exceed (because the master device will not allow clients to exceed speci=
fied limits).

   The general case is not all devices transmit with the same masks - relat=
ively loose-masked inexpensive devices can joint networks controlled by hig=
her-specification master devices - e.g., outdoor muni wi-fi.

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com<mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com> [mailto:B=
asavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]<mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:01 AM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

Hi Peter,

So how about the following text that we could add in the requirements secti=
on of the I-D:


-          A white space master device should provide to the database in th=
e query a description of the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for each=
 occupied bandwidth in the set of frequency bands.

You indicated that this is applicable to master devices and client devices.=
 How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master device that i=
s generally making a query to the database. Clients devices can no doubt ma=
ke the query as well, but would this requirement be applicable in such a ca=
se?

-Raj

From: ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]<mailto:[ma=
ilto:pecclesi@cisco.com]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

Hi Raj,

The requirement for the protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP li=
mits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequenc=
y band, for master devices and for client devices (these are the client spe=
ctrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com<mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com> [mailto:B=
asavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]<mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios


So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-data=
base) protocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com<mailto:pecclesi@=
cisco.com>>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, wit=
h several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in seve=
ral TV bands (VHF and UHF).

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:
                1 - Lowest applicable frequency in MHz
                2 - Highest applicable frequency in MHz
                3 - Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined by =
the spectrum mask
                4 - General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power i=
n EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated be=
tween adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p Ann=
ex I [http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or FC=
C 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the database =
to perform more accurate interference calculations.

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
_______________________________________________ paws mailing list paws@ietf=
.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Peter,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The database making as=
sumptions about the transmissions of client devices is not a good idea. It =
is preferable for the master device to inform the DB about client device tr=
ansmission limits that it will enforce.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks for the clarifi=
cation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">-Raj<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ext Pete=
r Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 13, 2011 3:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Raj,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt; How is it rel=
evant for client devices? It is only the master device that is generally ma=
king a query to the database. Clients devices can no doubt make the query a=
s well, but would this requirement be applicable
 in such a case?&lt;&lt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; The datab=
ase either makes assumptions about the transmissions of all client devices,=
 or it can be informed what emissions the client devices will not exceed (b=
ecause the master device will not allow clients
 to exceed specified limits). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; The gener=
al case is not all devices transmit with the same masks &#8211; relatively =
loose-masked inexpensive devices can joint networks controlled by higher-sp=
ecification master devices &#8211; e.g., outdoor muni wi-fi.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">petere<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&q=
uot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, =
CA 95134-1706
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quo=
t;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&quot;Time doesn't fool aro=
und.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> =
<a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]">
[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paw=
s@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Peter,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So how about the follo=
wing text that we could add in the requirements section of the I-D:<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">A white space =
master device should provide to the database in the query a description of =
the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in th=
e set of frequency bands.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You indicated that thi=
s is applicable to master devices and client devices. How is it relevant fo=
r client devices? It is only the master device that is generally making a q=
uery to the database. Clients devices
 can no doubt make the query as well, but would this requirement be applica=
ble in such a case?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">-Raj<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> ext Pete=
r Ecclesine (pecclesi)
<a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]">[mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]<=
/a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.=
org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Raj,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The requirement for th=
e protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP limits that will not be =
exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequency band, for master dev=
ices and for client devices (these are
 the client spectrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">petere<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&q=
uot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, =
CA 95134-1706
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quo=
t;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&quot;Time doesn't fool aro=
und.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> =
<a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]">
[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paw=
s@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">So what=
 would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-database) p=
rotocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radio=
s<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">In IEEE 802.11af discuss=
ions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, with several occupied bandw=
idths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in several TV bands (VHF and UH=
F).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">We see the need to tell =
the database several spectrum masks, each with:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 &#82=
11; Lowest applicable frequency in MHz</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 &#82=
11; Highest applicable frequency in MHz</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 &#82=
11; Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined by the spectrum mas=
k</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 &#82=
11; General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power in EIRP, with spe=
cific power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated between adjacent p=
oints of the spectrum mask, expressed like
 IEEE 802.11p Annex I [<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/down=
load/802.11p-2010.pdf">http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11=
p-2010.pdf</a>] or FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5- mea=
surement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;<=
/span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; This detail=
ed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the database to perform mor=
e accurate interference calculations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">petere<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><=
span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA=
 95134-1706
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&quot;Time doesn't fool aroun=
d.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">_______=
________________________________________ paws mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_21E7D9BD69CC7241AAE00F4EA183B719ADA25C008AM1MPN1053mgdn_--

From Peter.McCann@huawei.com  Thu Oct 13 14:23:59 2011
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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:23:50 +0000
From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
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Thread-topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Hi, Gabor,

I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what you
mean by "location" in requirement D.3:

D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the subject and accuracy
of location determination.  Here, "location" can be a single point or a set of points.

-Pete

Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> Pete,
> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to
> the list.
> -Gabor
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of ext Peter McCann
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> 
> Hi, Raj,
> 
> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change
> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in step 8:
> 
>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
>        device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn, queries
>        the database for a list of channels available at the slaves'
>        geolocation.
> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each of
> the devices could have independent Internet access and be capable of
> querying the database itself.  There could be one BS that handles all
> the queries or the individual BSs could query themselves (each for their
> own location) and they could compare notes to find a common free channel.
> 
> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have a
> requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries
> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection
> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection test
> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one
> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
> 
> -Pete
> 



From brian.rosen@neustar.biz  Thu Oct 13 14:27:41 2011
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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:27:07 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We use "unce=
rtainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within 10 meters of X,Y w=
ith 95% confidence", which is a circular uncertainty area.

Brian

On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:

> Hi, Gabor,
>=20
> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what you
> mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>=20
> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the subject a=
nd accuracy
> of location determination.  Here, "location" can be a single point or a s=
et of points.
>=20
> -Pete
>=20
> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>> Pete,
>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to
>> the list.
>> -Gabor
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of ext Peter McCann
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>=20
>> Hi, Raj,
>>=20
>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change
>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in step 8=
:
>>=20
>>   8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
>>       transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
>>       device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn, queries
>>       the database for a list of channels available at the slaves'
>>       geolocation.
>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each of
>> the devices could have independent Internet access and be capable of
>> querying the database itself.  There could be one BS that handles all
>> the queries or the individual BSs could query themselves (each for their
>> own location) and they could compare notes to find a common free channel=
.
>>=20
>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have a
>> requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries
>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection
>> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection test
>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one
>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
>>=20
>> -Pete
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


From Peter.McCann@huawei.com  Thu Oct 13 14:37:20 2011
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Thread-topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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The "accuracy" term comes from the list of requirements already proposed
by Gabor.  I just added the second sentence.  However we define it, I'd
like to make sure that the WS device can report its location as several
points (with whatever uncertainty/confidence measures for each one).
The database should find spectrum that is open at all of the given points.

-Pete

Rosen, Brian wrote:
> We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We use
> "uncertainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within 10
> meters of X,Y with 95% confidence", which is a circular uncertainty area.
> 
> Brian
> 
> On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:
> 
>> Hi, Gabor,
>> 
>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what you
>> mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>> 
>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the subject
>> and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location" can be a
>> single point or a set of points.
>> 
>> -Pete
>> 
>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>> Pete,
>>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to
>>> the list.
>>> -Gabor
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>> 
>>> Hi, Raj,
>>> 
>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change
>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in step
>>> 8:
>>> 
>>>   8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
>>>       transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
>>>       device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn,
>>>       queries the database for a list of channels available at the
>>>       slaves' geolocation.
>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each of
>>> the devices could have independent Internet access and be capable of
>>> querying the database itself.  There could be one BS that handles all
>>> the queries or the individual BSs could query themselves (each for
>>> their own location) and they could compare notes to find a common free
>>> channel.
>>> 
>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have a
>>> requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries
>>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection
>>> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection test
>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one
>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
>>> 
>>> -Pete
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> paws mailing list
>> paws@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws




From Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com  Thu Oct 13 15:01:06 2011
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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Pete,

Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:
D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability informatio=
n for multiple locations.
D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability informatio=
n for an area around a specified location.

-Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 2:24 PM
To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dalla=
s); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting

Hi, Gabor,

I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what you mean=
 by "location" in requirement D.3:

D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the subject and=
 accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location" can be a single poin=
t or a set of points.

-Pete

Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> Pete,
> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be=20
> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to=20
> the list.
> -Gabor
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of ext Peter McCann
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;=20
> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>=20
> Hi, Raj,
>=20
> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change=20
> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in step 8:
>=20
>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
>        device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn, queries
>        the database for a list of channels available at the slaves'
>        geolocation.
> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each of=20
> the devices could have independent Internet access and be capable of=20
> querying the database itself.  There could be one BS that handles all=20
> the queries or the individual BSs could query themselves (each for=20
> their own location) and they could compare notes to find a common free ch=
annel.
>=20
> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have a=20
> requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements=20
> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries=20
> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection=20
> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection test=20
> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one=20
> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
>=20
> -Pete
>=20



From Peter.McCann@huawei.com  Fri Oct 14 04:50:54 2011
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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:50:44 +0000
From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union
set of all channels available at the multiple locations.  I
want to make sure the WSDB can do a set intersection of the
available channels at each of the listed locations.

-Pete

Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> Pete,
> 
> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:
> D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> information for multiple locations.
> D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> information for an area around a specified location.
> 
> -Gabor
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 2:24
> PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-
> CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> 
> Hi, Gabor,
> 
> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what you
> mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> 
> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location" can
> be a single point or a set of points.
> 
> -Pete
> 
> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>> Pete,
>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to
>> the list.
>> -Gabor
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of ext Peter McCann
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>> 
>> Hi, Raj,
>> 
>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change along
>> the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in step 8:
>> 
>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
>>        device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn,
>>        queries the database for a list of channels available at the
>>        slaves' geolocation.
>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each of
>> the devices could have independent Internet access and be capable of
>> querying the database itself.  There could be one BS that handles all
>> the queries or the individual BSs could query themselves (each for
>> their own location) and they could compare notes to find a common free
>> channel.
>> 
>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have a
>> requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements (instead
>> of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries across the
>> Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection test at each
>> location, could additionally do a set intersection test on the
>> remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one concrete
>> way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
>> 
>> -Pete
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws




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Thread-Topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Peter, Brian

I agree that "uncertainty" and "confidence" are better terms, but "location=
 accuracy" is also used by Ofcom in their consultation proposals. They allo=
w the location accuracy to be varied in database queries to include the tra=
nsmissions of the slaves, for example a 500m cell could be catered for by s=
pecifying the master location plus an accuracy of 600m, made up of 500m for=
 the cell radius and 100m for the actual location uncertainty of the measur=
ement made by the master device.

We are close to being able to propose two new use cases on the reflector an=
d also have additional requirements that fall from those, particularly addr=
essing the UK/Ofcom needs.=20

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pet=
er McCann
Sent: 13 October 2011 22:37
To: Rosen, Brian
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting

The "accuracy" term comes from the list of requirements already proposed by=
 Gabor.  I just added the second sentence.  However we define it, I'd like =
to make sure that the WS device can report its location as several points (=
with whatever uncertainty/confidence measures for each one).
The database should find spectrum that is open at all of the given points.

-Pete

Rosen, Brian wrote:
> We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We use=20
> "uncertainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within 10=20
> meters of X,Y with 95% confidence", which is a circular uncertainty area.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:
>=20
>> Hi, Gabor,
>>=20
>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what=20
>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>=20
>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the=20
>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location" can=20
>> be a single point or a set of points.
>>=20
>> -Pete
>>=20
>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>> Pete,
>>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be=20
>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to=20
>>> the list.
>>> -Gabor
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>>> Of ext Peter McCann
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;=20
>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>=20
>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>=20
>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change=20
>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in=20
>>> step
>>> 8:
>>>=20
>>>   8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
>>>       transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
>>>       device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn,
>>>       queries the database for a list of channels available at the
>>>       slaves' geolocation.
>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each=20
>>> of the devices could have independent Internet access and be capable=20
>>> of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS that handles=20
>>> all the queries or the individual BSs could query themselves (each=20
>>> for their own location) and they could compare notes to find a=20
>>> common free channel.
>>>=20
>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have=20
>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements=20
>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries=20
>>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection=20
>>> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection test=20
>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one=20
>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
>>>=20
>>> -Pete
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> paws mailing list
>> paws@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws



_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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<as individual>
While I recognize that regulators are not bound by the laws of physics, eng=
ineers generally are.   There are no measurement mechanisms I am aware of t=
hat will yield a lat/lon/altitude that do not have some form of confidence =
factor.  We have lots of experience with these issues in the U.S. cell phon=
e emergency call system.  If you don't specify confidence, someone can give=
 you an uncertainty of 10 meters, and just not tell you that confidence is =
20%.  More specifically, we actually did experience some measurements with =
65% confidence being compared to some measurements with 95% confidence but =
the same uncertainty.  Big difference.

So, while a regulator can choose to ignore confidence, the protocol cannot,=
 IMHO.  There is no definition of "accuracy" that I'm aware of in the conte=
xt of measured lat/lon which meets any engineering rigor.  If the regulator=
 says "accuracy", I would propose that the protocol translate that to "unce=
rtainty" and if "confidence" is unspecified, I would default to 95%.

Brian

On Oct 14, 2011, at 8:03 AM, <andy.sago@bt.com> wrote:

> Peter, Brian
>=20
> I agree that "uncertainty" and "confidence" are better terms, but "locati=
on accuracy" is also used by Ofcom in their consultation proposals. They al=
low the location accuracy to be varied in database queries to include the t=
ransmissions of the slaves, for example a 500m cell could be catered for by=
 specifying the master location plus an accuracy of 600m, made up of 500m f=
or the cell radius and 100m for the actual location uncertainty of the meas=
urement made by the master device.
>=20
> We are close to being able to propose two new use cases on the reflector =
and also have additional requirements that fall from those, particularly ad=
dressing the UK/Ofcom needs.=20
>=20
> Andy
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of P=
eter McCann
> Sent: 13 October 2011 22:37
> To: Rosen, Brian
> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>=20
> The "accuracy" term comes from the list of requirements already proposed =
by Gabor.  I just added the second sentence.  However we define it, I'd lik=
e to make sure that the WS device can report its location as several points=
 (with whatever uncertainty/confidence measures for each one).
> The database should find spectrum that is open at all of the given points=
.
>=20
> -Pete
>=20
> Rosen, Brian wrote:
>> We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We use=20
>> "uncertainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within 10=20
>> meters of X,Y with 95% confidence", which is a circular uncertainty area=
.
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>> On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi, Gabor,
>>>=20
>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what=20
>>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>>=20
>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the=20
>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location" can=20
>>> be a single point or a set of points.
>>>=20
>>> -Pete
>>>=20
>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>> Pete,
>>>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be=20
>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to=20
>>>> the list.
>>>> -Gabor
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>>>> Of ext Peter McCann
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;=20
>>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>>=20
>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change=20
>>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in=20
>>>> step
>>>> 8:
>>>>=20
>>>>  8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
>>>>      transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
>>>>      device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn,
>>>>      queries the database for a list of channels available at the
>>>>      slaves' geolocation.
>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each=20
>>>> of the devices could have independent Internet access and be capable=20
>>>> of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS that handles=20
>>>> all the queries or the individual BSs could query themselves (each=20
>>>> for their own location) and they could compare notes to find a=20
>>>> common free channel.
>>>>=20
>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have=20
>>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements=20
>>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries=20
>>>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection=20
>>>> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection test=20
>>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one=20
>>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
>>>>=20
>>>> -Pete
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> paws mailing list
>>> paws@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


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From: <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
To: <pecclesi@cisco.com>, <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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--_000_CABD98DAB413scottprobasconokiacom_
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Hi Peter,

Could you describe how the master enforces the specified limits on the clie=
nt/slave devices? Perhaps the 'how' is beyond scope of PAWS, I am just tryi=
ng to understand how the system would operate.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com<mailto:pecclesi@=
cisco.com>>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:36:12 -0700
To: Raj Patil <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com<mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>>=
, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org=
>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

Hi Raj,

>> How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master device that=
 is generally making a query to the database. Clients devices can no doubt =
make the query as well, but would this requirement be applicable in such a =
case?<<

   The database either makes assumptions about the transmissions of all cli=
ent devices, or it can be informed what emissions the client devices will n=
ot exceed (because the master device will not allow clients to exceed speci=
fied limits).

   The general case is not all devices transmit with the same masks =96 rel=
atively loose-masked inexpensive devices can joint networks controlled by h=
igher-specification master devices =96 e.g., outdoor muni wi-fi.

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com<mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com> [mailto:B=
asavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:01 AM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

Hi Peter,

So how about the following text that we could add in the requirements secti=
on of the I-D:


-          A white space master device should provide to the database in th=
e query a description of the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for each=
 occupied bandwidth in the set of frequency bands.

You indicated that this is applicable to master devices and client devices.=
 How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master device that i=
s generally making a query to the database. Clients devices can no doubt ma=
ke the query as well, but would this requirement be applicable in such a ca=
se?

-Raj

From: ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

Hi Raj,

The requirement for the protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP li=
mits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequenc=
y band, for master devices and for client devices (these are the client spe=
ctrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com<mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com> [mailto:B=
asavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]<mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios


So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-data=
base) protocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com<mailto:pecclesi@=
cisco.com>>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, wit=
h several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in seve=
ral TV bands (VHF and UHF).

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:
                1 =96 Lowest applicable frequency in MHz
                2 =96 Highest applicable frequency in MHz
                3 =96 Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined b=
y the spectrum mask
                4 =96 General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power=
 in EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated =
between adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p A=
nnex I [http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or =
FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the database =
to perform more accurate interference calculations.

petere
Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst
MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256
"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207
_______________________________________________ paws mailing list paws@ietf=
.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
_______________________________________________ paws mailing list paws@ietf=
.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

--_000_CABD98DAB413scottprobasconokiacom_
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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>Hi Peter,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Could you describe how the master enforces the specified limits on the=
 client/slave devices? Perhaps the 'how' is beyond scope of PAWS, I am just=
 trying to understand how the system would operate.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Scott</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
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 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine (pe=
cclesi)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:36:12 -07=
00<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Raj Patil &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pa=
ws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Several spectru=
m masks used by multi-bandwidth radios<br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Raj,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:#1F497D"> How is it relevant for client devices? It is only t=
he master device that is generally making a query to the database. Clients =
devices can no doubt make the query as well,
 but would this requirement be applicable in such a case?&lt;&lt;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; The datab=
ase either makes assumptions about the transmissions of all client devices,=
 or it can be informed what emissions the client devices will not exceed (b=
ecause the master device will not allow clients
 to exceed specified limits). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; The gener=
al case is not all devices transmit with the same masks =96 relatively loos=
e-masked inexpensive devices can joint networks controlled by higher-specif=
ication master devices =96 e.g., outdoor muni wi-fi.</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">petere<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif; ">Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Times New Ro=
man', serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif; ">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-=
1706
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family=
: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif; ">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Times New Roma=
n', serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot=
;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span style=3D"col=
or:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fami=
ly: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">
<a href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> =
[<a href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.=
com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paw=
s@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Peter,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">So how about the follo=
wing text that we could add in the requirements section of the I-D:<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<spa=
n style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">A white space master dev=
ice should provide to the database in the query a description of the EIRP l=
imits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in the set of f=
requency bands.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You indicated that thi=
s is applicable to master devices and client devices. How is it relevant fo=
r client devices? It is only the master device that is generally making a q=
uery to the database. Clients devices
 can no doubt make the query as well, but would this requirement be applica=
ble in such a case?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">-Raj<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fami=
ly: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:pecclesi@cisco.com">mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.=
org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Raj,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The requirement for th=
e protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP limits that will not be =
exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each frequency band, for master dev=
ices and for client devices (these are
 the client spectrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">petere<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif; ">Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Times New Ro=
man', serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif; ">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-=
1706
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family=
: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif; ">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: 'Times New Roma=
n', serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot=
;&nbsp; &quot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span style=3D"col=
or:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fami=
ly: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">
<a href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> =
<a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]">
[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paw=
s@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth r=
adios<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">So what=
 would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-database) p=
rotocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radio=
s<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">In IEEE 802.11af discuss=
ions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, with several occupied bandw=
idths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in several TV bands (VHF and UH=
F).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">We see the need to tell =
the database several spectrum masks, each with:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 =96 =
Lowest applicable frequency in MHz</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 =96 =
Highest applicable frequency in MHz</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 =96 =
Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined by the spectrum mask</s=
pan><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 =96 =
General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit power in EIRP, with specifi=
c power limit at any frequency linearly interpolated between adjacent point=
s of the spectrum mask, expressed like
 IEEE 802.11p Annex I [<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/down=
load/802.11p-2010.pdf">http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11=
p-2010.pdf</a>] or FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5- mea=
surement resolution bandwidth for EIRP measurements</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;<=
/span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; This detail=
ed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the database to perform mor=
e accurate interference calculations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">petere<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; ">Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; ">MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; ">Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span style=3D"color:=
black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Arial, sans-serif; ">&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &qu=
ot;Without Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">_______=
________________________________________ paws mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________ paws mailing list <a href=
=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">
paws@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a>
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From andy.sago@bt.com  Fri Oct 14 06:27:42 2011
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From: <andy.sago@bt.com>
To: <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:27:38 +0100
Thread-Topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Cc: paws@ietf.org, Peter.McCann@huawei.com
Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Brian

I've gone back to Ofcom's original consultation and it does say the accurac=
y should be specified to a 95% certainty, so the rules of physics have been=
 allowed for. Sorry I didn't include that in the earlier mail. They then al=
low for the accuracy to be varied to account for slave devices. Some of the=
 language is probably a bit lax, but the protocol may need to cater for var=
ying confidence levels across regulatory domains as you say. With the cavea=
t that this is only one paragraph from Ofcom's consultation and not the ful=
l story, and their views may have moved on, their text on varying the locat=
ion accuracy says:

The slave devices will be some distance from the master device. As a result=
, they
may be closer to a licensed receiver than the master and when they transmit=
 they
may cause interference. To prevent this occurring the master device needs t=
o inform
the database of the possible distance away that slave devices may be locate=
d and
the database can then take this information into account when assigning fre=
quencies
and power levels.
We propose that an effective way for the master device to do this is to inc=
rease its
location uncertainty by an amount related to the maximum expected range bet=
ween
the master and slave device. Hence, if the master device knew its location =
accuracy
to 100m and it knew that the maximum range to a slave device was 500m it wo=
uld
report a location accuracy of 600m to the database. The database would then=
 search
across all pixels within the possible location circle and return a result b=
ased on the
minimum power level across all pixels for each frequency.

(Ref paragraphs 3.14-3.15 in Implementing Geolocation (9 Nov 2010) at http:=
//stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/geolocation/summary/geol=
ocation.pdf)

Regards

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]=20
Sent: 14 October 2011 13:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R
Cc: Peter.McCann@huawei.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting

<as individual>
While I recognize that regulators are not bound by the laws of physics, eng=
ineers generally are.   There are no measurement mechanisms I am aware of t=
hat will yield a lat/lon/altitude that do not have some form of confidence =
factor.  We have lots of experience with these issues in the U.S. cell phon=
e emergency call system.  If you don't specify confidence, someone can give=
 you an uncertainty of 10 meters, and just not tell you that confidence is =
20%.  More specifically, we actually did experience some measurements with =
65% confidence being compared to some measurements with 95% confidence but =
the same uncertainty.  Big difference.

So, while a regulator can choose to ignore confidence, the protocol cannot,=
 IMHO.  There is no definition of "accuracy" that I'm aware of in the conte=
xt of measured lat/lon which meets any engineering rigor.  If the regulator=
 says "accuracy", I would propose that the protocol translate that to "unce=
rtainty" and if "confidence" is unspecified, I would default to 95%.

Brian

On Oct 14, 2011, at 8:03 AM, <andy.sago@bt.com> wrote:

> Peter, Brian
>=20
> I agree that "uncertainty" and "confidence" are better terms, but "locati=
on accuracy" is also used by Ofcom in their consultation proposals. They al=
low the location accuracy to be varied in database queries to include the t=
ransmissions of the slaves, for example a 500m cell could be catered for by=
 specifying the master location plus an accuracy of 600m, made up of 500m f=
or the cell radius and 100m for the actual location uncertainty of the meas=
urement made by the master device.
>=20
> We are close to being able to propose two new use cases on the reflector =
and also have additional requirements that fall from those, particularly ad=
dressing the UK/Ofcom needs.=20
>=20
> Andy
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Peter McCann
> Sent: 13 October 2011 22:37
> To: Rosen, Brian
> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>=20
> The "accuracy" term comes from the list of requirements already proposed =
by Gabor.  I just added the second sentence.  However we define it, I'd lik=
e to make sure that the WS device can report its location as several points=
 (with whatever uncertainty/confidence measures for each one).
> The database should find spectrum that is open at all of the given points=
.
>=20
> -Pete
>=20
> Rosen, Brian wrote:
>> We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We use=20
>> "uncertainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within 10=20
>> meters of X,Y with 95% confidence", which is a circular uncertainty area=
.
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>> On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi, Gabor,
>>>=20
>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what=20
>>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>>=20
>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the=20
>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"=20
>>> can be a single point or a set of points.
>>>=20
>>> -Pete
>>>=20
>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>> Pete,
>>>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be=20
>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to=20
>>>> the list.
>>>> -Gabor
>>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;=20
>>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>>=20
>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change=20
>>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in=20
>>>> step
>>>> 8:
>>>>=20
>>>>  8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
>>>>      transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
>>>>      device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn,
>>>>      queries the database for a list of channels available at the
>>>>      slaves' geolocation.
>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each=20
>>>> of the devices could have independent Internet access and be=20
>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS=20
>>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query=20
>>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare=20
>>>> notes to find a common free channel.
>>>>=20
>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to=20
>>>> have a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location=20
>>>> elements (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple=20
>>>> queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon=20
>>>> intersection test at each location, could additionally do a set=20
>>>> intersection test on the remaining free channels and return the=20
>>>> results.  That's one concrete way that this use case may impact the pr=
otocol specification.
>>>>=20
>>>> -Pete
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> paws mailing list
>>> paws@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


From gerald.chouinard@crc.ca  Fri Oct 14 07:19:56 2011
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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:19:27 -0400
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From: Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Andy,

As shown in the excerpt that you included below, Ofcom seem to use the 
terms "accuracy" and "uncertainty" interchangeably. The IETF-PAWS should 
align with the intent but use the more correct term "uncertainty" in its 
proceedings.  "Uncertainty" can then be extended to include a larger 
"uncertainty" radius around a location to take into account of the 
existence of the slave devices.

Gerald


At 14:27 14-10-11 +0100, andy.sago@bt.com wrote:
>Brian
>
>I've gone back to Ofcom's original consultation and it does say the 
>accuracy should be specified to a 95% certainty, so the rules of physics 
>have been allowed for. Sorry I didn't include that in the earlier mail. 
>They then allow for the accuracy to be varied to account for slave 
>devices. Some of the language is probably a bit lax, but the protocol may 
>need to cater for varying confidence levels across regulatory domains as 
>you say. With the caveat that this is only one paragraph from Ofcom's 
>consultation and not the full story, and their views may have moved on, 
>their text on varying the location accuracy says:
>
>The slave devices will be some distance from the master device. As a 
>result, they
>may be closer to a licensed receiver than the master and when they 
>transmit they
>may cause interference. To prevent this occurring the master device needs 
>to inform
>the database of the possible distance away that slave devices may be 
>located and
>the database can then take this information into account when assigning 
>frequencies
>and power levels.
>We propose that an effective way for the master device to do this is to 
>increase its
>location uncertainty by an amount related to the maximum expected range 
>between
>the master and slave device. Hence, if the master device knew its location 
>accuracy
>to 100m and it knew that the maximum range to a slave device was 500m it would
>report a location accuracy of 600m to the database. The database would 
>then search
>across all pixels within the possible location circle and return a result 
>based on the
>minimum power level across all pixels for each frequency.
>
>(Ref paragraphs 3.14-3.15 in Implementing Geolocation (9 Nov 2010) at 
>http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/geolocation/summary/geolocation.pdf)
>
>Regards
>
>Andy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]
>Sent: 14 October 2011 13:39
>To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R
>Cc: Peter.McCann@huawei.com; paws@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>
><as individual>
>While I recognize that regulators are not bound by the laws of physics, 
>engineers generally are.   There are no measurement mechanisms I am aware 
>of that will yield a lat/lon/altitude that do not have some form of 
>confidence factor.  We have lots of experience with these issues in the 
>U.S. cell phone emergency call system.  If you don't specify confidence, 
>someone can give you an uncertainty of 10 meters, and just not tell you 
>that confidence is 20%.  More specifically, we actually did experience 
>some measurements with 65% confidence being compared to some measurements 
>with 95% confidence but the same uncertainty.  Big difference.
>
>So, while a regulator can choose to ignore confidence, the protocol 
>cannot, IMHO.  There is no definition of "accuracy" that I'm aware of in 
>the context of measured lat/lon which meets any engineering rigor.  If the 
>regulator says "accuracy", I would propose that the protocol translate 
>that to "uncertainty" and if "confidence" is unspecified, I would default 
>to 95%.
>
>Brian
>
>On Oct 14, 2011, at 8:03 AM, <andy.sago@bt.com> wrote:
>
> > Peter, Brian
> >
> > I agree that "uncertainty" and "confidence" are better terms, but 
> "location accuracy" is also used by Ofcom in their consultation 
> proposals. They allow the location accuracy to be varied in database 
> queries to include the transmissions of the slaves, for example a 500m 
> cell could be catered for by specifying the master location plus an 
> accuracy of 600m, made up of 500m for the cell radius and 100m for the 
> actual location uncertainty of the measurement made by the master device.
> >
> > We are close to being able to propose two new use cases on the 
> reflector and also have additional requirements that fall from those, 
> particularly addressing the UK/Ofcom needs.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of Peter McCann
> > Sent: 13 October 2011 22:37
> > To: Rosen, Brian
> > Cc: paws@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >
> > The "accuracy" term comes from the list of requirements already 
> proposed by Gabor.  I just added the second sentence.  However we define 
> it, I'd like to make sure that the WS device can report its location as 
> several points (with whatever uncertainty/confidence measures for each one).
> > The database should find spectrum that is open at all of the given points.
> >
> > -Pete
> >
> > Rosen, Brian wrote:
> >> We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We use
> >> "uncertainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within 10
> >> meters of X,Y with 95% confidence", which is a circular uncertainty area.
> >>
> >> Brian
> >>
> >> On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi, Gabor,
> >>>
> >>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what
> >>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> >>>
> >>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
> >>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
> >>> can be a single point or a set of points.
> >>>
> >>> -Pete
> >>>
> >>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> >>>> Pete,
> >>>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
> >>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to
> >>>> the list.
> >>>> -Gabor
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> >>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
> >>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> >>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi, Raj,
> >>>>
> >>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change
> >>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in
> >>>> step
> >>>> 8:
> >>>>
> >>>>  8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
> >>>>      transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
> >>>>      device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn,
> >>>>      queries the database for a list of channels available at the
> >>>>      slaves' geolocation.
> >>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each
> >>>> of the devices could have independent Internet access and be
> >>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
> >>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
> >>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
> >>>> notes to find a common free channel.
> >>>>
> >>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to
> >>>> have a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location
> >>>> elements (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
> >>>> queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon
> >>>> intersection test at each location, could additionally do a set
> >>>> intersection test on the remaining free channels and return the
> >>>> results.  That's one concrete way that this use case may impact the 
> protocol specification.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Pete
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> paws mailing list
> >>> paws@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > paws mailing list
> > paws@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>
>_______________________________________________
>paws mailing list
>paws@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws




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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Slave devices (or peer master devices engaged in simulcasting) may not
be arranged in a circular area and enlarging the uncertainty radius to
include all of them may result in a geographic footprint that is way
too large.  It should be possible to include multiple points/uncertainty
radii and have the WSDB return spectrum that is free in all of the 
circles.

-Pete

Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> Andy,
> 
> As shown in the excerpt that you included below, Ofcom seem to use the
> terms "accuracy" and "uncertainty" interchangeably. The IETF-PAWS
> should align with the intent but use the more correct term
> "uncertainty" in its proceedings.  "Uncertainty" can then be extended
> to include a larger "uncertainty" radius around a location to take
> into account of the existence of the slave devices.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> 
> At 14:27 14-10-11 +0100, andy.sago@bt.com wrote:
>> Brian
>> 
>> I've gone back to Ofcom's original consultation and it does say the
>> accuracy should be specified to a 95% certainty, so the rules of
>> physics have been allowed for. Sorry I didn't include that in the
>> earlier mail. They then allow for the accuracy to be varied to account
>> for slave devices. Some of the language is probably a bit lax, but the
>> protocol may need to cater for varying confidence levels across
>> regulatory domains as you say. With the caveat that this is only one
>> paragraph from Ofcom's consultation and not the full story, and their
>> views may have moved on, their text on varying the location accuracy
>> says:
>> 
>> The slave devices will be some distance from the master device. As a
>> result, they may be closer to a licensed receiver than the master and
>> when they transmit they may cause interference. To prevent this
>> occurring the master device needs to inform the database of the
>> possible distance away that slave devices may be located and the
>> database can then take this information into account when assigning
>> frequencies and power levels. We propose that an effective way for the
>> master device to do this is to increase its location uncertainty by an
>> amount related to the maximum expected range between the master and
>> slave device. Hence, if the master device knew its location accuracy to
>> 100m and it knew that the maximum range to a slave device was 500m it
>> would report a location accuracy of 600m to the database. The database
>> would then search across all pixels within the possible location circle
>> and return a result based on the minimum power level across all pixels
>> for each frequency.
>> 
>> (Ref paragraphs 3.14-3.15 in Implementing Geolocation (9 Nov 2010) at
>> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/geolocation/s u
>> m mary/geolocation.pdf)
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Andy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]
>> Sent: 14 October 2011 13:39
>> To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R
>> Cc: Peter.McCann@huawei.com; paws@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>> 
>> <as individual> While I recognize that regulators are not bound by the
>> laws of physics, engineers generally are.   There are no measurement
>> mechanisms I am aware of that will yield a lat/lon/altitude that do not
>> have some form of confidence factor.  We have lots of experience with
>> these issues in the U.S. cell phone emergency call system.  If you
>> don't specify confidence, someone can give you an uncertainty of 10
>> meters, and just not tell you that confidence is 20%.  More
>> specifically, we actually did experience some measurements with 65%
>> confidence being compared to some measurements with 95% confidence but
>> the same uncertainty.  Big difference.
>> 
>> So, while a regulator can choose to ignore confidence, the protocol
>> cannot, IMHO.  There is no definition of "accuracy" that I'm aware of
>> in the context of measured lat/lon which meets any engineering rigor.
>> If the regulator says "accuracy", I would propose that the protocol
>> translate that to "uncertainty" and if "confidence" is unspecified, I
>> would default to 95%.
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> On Oct 14, 2011, at 8:03 AM, <andy.sago@bt.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Peter, Brian
>>> 
>>> I agree that "uncertainty" and "confidence" are better terms, but
>> "location accuracy" is also used by Ofcom in their consultation
>> proposals. They allow the location accuracy to be varied in database
>> queries to include the transmissions of the slaves, for example a 500m
>> cell could be catered for by specifying the master location plus an
>> accuracy of 600m, made up of 500m for the cell radius and 100m for the
>> actual location uncertainty of the measurement made by the master
> device.
>>> 
>>> We are close to being able to propose two new use cases on the
>> reflector and also have additional requirements that fall from
>> those, particularly addressing the UK/Ofcom needs.
>>> 
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter McCann Sent: 13
>>> October 2011 22:37 To: Rosen, Brian Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re:
>>> [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>> 
>>> The "accuracy" term comes from the list of requirements already
>> proposed by Gabor.  I just added the second sentence.  However we
>> define it, I'd like to make sure that the WS device can report its
>> location as several points (with whatever uncertainty/confidence
> measures for each one).
>>> The database should find spectrum that is open at all of the given
>>> points.
>>> 
>>> -Pete
>>> 
>>> Rosen, Brian wrote:
>>>> We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We use
>>>> "uncertainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within 10
>>>> meters of X,Y with 95% confidence", which is a circular uncertainty
>>>> area.
>>>> 
>>>> Brian
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi, Gabor,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what
>>>>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>>>> 
>>>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
>>>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
>>>>> can be a single point or a set of points.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Pete
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
>>>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol
>>>>>> requirement to the list.
>>>>>> -Gabor
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>>>>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas);
>>>>>> gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>>>>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change
>>>>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in
>>>>>> step 8:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a
> WRAN
>>>>>>      transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The
>>>>>>      slave/user device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in
>>>>>>      turn, queries the database for a list of channels available at
>>>>>>      the slaves' geolocation.
>>>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each
>>>>>> of the devices could have independent Internet access and be
>>>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
>>>>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
>>>>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
>>>>>> notes to find a common free channel.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to
>>>>>> have a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location
>>>>>> elements (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
>>>>>> queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon
>>>>>> intersection test at each location, could additionally do a set
>>>>>> intersection test on the remaining free channels and return the
>>>>>> results.  That's one concrete way that this use case may impact the
>>>>>> protocol specification.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Pete




From gerald.chouinard@crc.ca  Fri Oct 14 07:33:51 2011
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To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>, "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
From: Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Peter,

In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is done at the base 
station because the base station should be able to decide whether to accept 
association with a new user terminal or not, depending on the extent this 
new terminal limits the number of available channels.  This would not be 
possible if this is done at the database.

The base station (or the master in more general terms) should maintain a 
local table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed EIRP per channel) 
to have all the information necessary to continuously optimize its use of 
the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new terminal that asks to be associated 
that may reduce the number of available channels to only a few but, by 
disassociating another terminal in a different location, the local network 
would regain even more available channels, as a result of the intersection 
process.  The base station could then decide to stop its association with 
this second terminal and associate the first terminal.  This intelligence 
should not be relegated to the database but should be kept local at the 
base station.

Whether the base station queries the database for each of its associated 
terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all its terminals, the 
complete information should be obtained from the database so that the 
process of 'intersection' can take place at the base station.

Gerald


At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union
>set of all channels available at the multiple locations.  I
>want to make sure the WSDB can do a set intersection of the
>available channels at each of the listed locations.
>
>-Pete
>
>Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> > Pete,
> >
> > Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:
> > D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> > information for multiple locations.
> > D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> > information for an area around a specified location.
> >
> > -Gabor
> >
> > -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
> > [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 2:24
> > PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-
> > CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> > Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >
> > Hi, Gabor,
> >
> > I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what you
> > mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> >
> > D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
> > subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location" can
> > be a single point or a set of points.
> >
> > -Pete
> >
> > Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> >> Pete,
> >> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
> >> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to
> >> the list.
> >> -Gabor
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> >> Of ext Peter McCann
> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> >> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
> >> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> >> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>
> >> Hi, Raj,
> >>
> >> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change along
> >> the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in step 8:
> >>
> >>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a WRAN
> >>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The slave/user
> >>        device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in turn,
> >>        queries the database for a list of channels available at the
> >>        slaves' geolocation.
> >> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each of
> >> the devices could have independent Internet access and be capable of
> >> querying the database itself.  There could be one BS that handles all
> >> the queries or the individual BSs could query themselves (each for
> >> their own location) and they could compare notes to find a common free
> >> channel.
> >>
> >> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have a
> >> requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements (instead
> >> of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries across the
> >> Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection test at each
> >> location, could additionally do a set intersection test on the
> >> remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one concrete
> >> way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
> >>
> >> -Pete
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > paws mailing list
> > paws@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws




From andy.sago@bt.com  Fri Oct 14 07:35:00 2011
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To: <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>, <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
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Thread-Topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Agreed. I brought up the idea of 'varying the uncertainty radius' as anothe=
r option, already put forward by Ofcom, it is not necessarily ideal for the=
 simulcasting use case. Maybe I should have started a new thread.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]=20
Sent: 14 October 2011 15:27
To: Gerald Chouinard; Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting

Slave devices (or peer master devices engaged in simulcasting) may not be a=
rranged in a circular area and enlarging the uncertainty radius to include =
all of them may result in a geographic footprint that is way too large.  It=
 should be possible to include multiple points/uncertainty radii and have t=
he WSDB return spectrum that is free in all of the circles.

-Pete

Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> Andy,
>=20
> As shown in the excerpt that you included below, Ofcom seem to use the=20
> terms "accuracy" and "uncertainty" interchangeably. The IETF-PAWS=20
> should align with the intent but use the more correct term=20
> "uncertainty" in its proceedings.  "Uncertainty" can then be extended=20
> to include a larger "uncertainty" radius around a location to take=20
> into account of the existence of the slave devices.
>=20
> Gerald
>=20
>=20
> At 14:27 14-10-11 +0100, andy.sago@bt.com wrote:
>> Brian
>>=20
>> I've gone back to Ofcom's original consultation and it does say the=20
>> accuracy should be specified to a 95% certainty, so the rules of=20
>> physics have been allowed for. Sorry I didn't include that in the=20
>> earlier mail. They then allow for the accuracy to be varied to=20
>> account for slave devices. Some of the language is probably a bit=20
>> lax, but the protocol may need to cater for varying confidence levels=20
>> across regulatory domains as you say. With the caveat that this is=20
>> only one paragraph from Ofcom's consultation and not the full story,=20
>> and their views may have moved on, their text on varying the location=20
>> accuracy
>> says:
>>=20
>> The slave devices will be some distance from the master device. As a=20
>> result, they may be closer to a licensed receiver than the master and=20
>> when they transmit they may cause interference. To prevent this=20
>> occurring the master device needs to inform the database of the=20
>> possible distance away that slave devices may be located and the=20
>> database can then take this information into account when assigning=20
>> frequencies and power levels. We propose that an effective way for=20
>> the master device to do this is to increase its location uncertainty=20
>> by an amount related to the maximum expected range between the master=20
>> and slave device. Hence, if the master device knew its location=20
>> accuracy to 100m and it knew that the maximum range to a slave device=20
>> was 500m it would report a location accuracy of 600m to the database.=20
>> The database would then search across all pixels within the possible=20
>> location circle and return a result based on the minimum power level=20
>> across all pixels for each frequency.
>>=20
>> (Ref paragraphs 3.14-3.15 in Implementing Geolocation (9 Nov 2010) at=20
>> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/geolocation/s=20
>> u m mary/geolocation.pdf)
>>=20
>> Regards
>>=20
>> Andy
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]
>> Sent: 14 October 2011 13:39
>> To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R
>> Cc: Peter.McCann@huawei.com; paws@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>=20
>> <as individual> While I recognize that regulators are not bound by the
>> laws of physics, engineers generally are.   There are no measurement
>> mechanisms I am aware of that will yield a lat/lon/altitude that do=20
>> not have some form of confidence factor.  We have lots of experience=20
>> with these issues in the U.S. cell phone emergency call system.  If=20
>> you don't specify confidence, someone can give you an uncertainty of=20
>> 10 meters, and just not tell you that confidence is 20%.  More=20
>> specifically, we actually did experience some measurements with 65%=20
>> confidence being compared to some measurements with 95% confidence=20
>> but the same uncertainty.  Big difference.
>>=20
>> So, while a regulator can choose to ignore confidence, the protocol=20
>> cannot, IMHO.  There is no definition of "accuracy" that I'm aware of=20
>> in the context of measured lat/lon which meets any engineering rigor.
>> If the regulator says "accuracy", I would propose that the protocol=20
>> translate that to "uncertainty" and if "confidence" is unspecified, I=20
>> would default to 95%.
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>> On Oct 14, 2011, at 8:03 AM, <andy.sago@bt.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Peter, Brian
>>>=20
>>> I agree that "uncertainty" and "confidence" are better terms, but
>> "location accuracy" is also used by Ofcom in their consultation=20
>> proposals. They allow the location accuracy to be varied in database=20
>> queries to include the transmissions of the slaves, for example a=20
>> 500m cell could be catered for by specifying the master location plus=20
>> an accuracy of 600m, made up of 500m for the cell radius and 100m for=20
>> the actual location uncertainty of the measurement made by the master
> device.
>>>=20
>>> We are close to being able to propose two new use cases on the
>> reflector and also have additional requirements that fall from those,=20
>> particularly addressing the UK/Ofcom needs.
>>>=20
>>> Andy
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org=20
>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter McCann Sent: 13=20
>>> October 2011 22:37 To: Rosen, Brian Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re:
>>> [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>=20
>>> The "accuracy" term comes from the list of requirements already
>> proposed by Gabor.  I just added the second sentence.  However we=20
>> define it, I'd like to make sure that the WS device can report its=20
>> location as several points (with whatever uncertainty/confidence
> measures for each one).
>>> The database should find spectrum that is open at all of the given=20
>>> points.
>>>=20
>>> -Pete
>>>=20
>>> Rosen, Brian wrote:
>>>> We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We=20
>>>> use "uncertainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within=20
>>>> 10 meters of X,Y with 95% confidence", which is a circular=20
>>>> uncertainty area.
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian
>>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi, Gabor,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what=20
>>>>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the=20
>>>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
>>>>> can be a single point or a set of points.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be=20
>>>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement=20
>>>>>> to the list.
>>>>>> -Gabor
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>>>>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>>>>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;=20
>>>>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>>>>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change=20
>>>>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in=20
>>>>>> step 8:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a
> WRAN
>>>>>>      transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The
>>>>>>      slave/user device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in
>>>>>>      turn, queries the database for a list of channels available at
>>>>>>      the slaves' geolocation.
>>>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that=20
>>>>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access and be=20
>>>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS=20
>>>>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query=20
>>>>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare=20
>>>>>> notes to find a common free channel.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to=20
>>>>>> have a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location=20
>>>>>> elements (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of=20
>>>>>> multiple queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the=20
>>>>>> polygon intersection test at each location, could additionally do=20
>>>>>> a set intersection test on the remaining free channels and return=20
>>>>>> the results.  That's one concrete way that this use case may=20
>>>>>> impact the protocol specification.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -Pete




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To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "andy.sago@bt.com" <andy.sago@bt.com>, "Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
From: Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Peter,

I guess what Ofcom was referring to is something similar to the Mode I 
devices in the US that do not need to be geolocated since they are assumed 
to be close to the master device. In the case where these slave devices 
need to be geolocated, I agree with you that their actual locatiohn should 
be used rather than arbitrarily extending the radius of an imaginary circle 
around the master device.

Gerald

At 14:27 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>Slave devices (or peer master devices engaged in simulcasting) may not
>be arranged in a circular area and enlarging the uncertainty radius to
>include all of them may result in a geographic footprint that is way
>too large.  It should be possible to include multiple points/uncertainty
>radii and have the WSDB return spectrum that is free in all of the
>circles.
>
>-Pete
>
>Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> > Andy,
> >
> > As shown in the excerpt that you included below, Ofcom seem to use the
> > terms "accuracy" and "uncertainty" interchangeably. The IETF-PAWS
> > should align with the intent but use the more correct term
> > "uncertainty" in its proceedings.  "Uncertainty" can then be extended
> > to include a larger "uncertainty" radius around a location to take
> > into account of the existence of the slave devices.
> >
> > Gerald
> >
> >
> > At 14:27 14-10-11 +0100, andy.sago@bt.com wrote:
> >> Brian
> >>
> >> I've gone back to Ofcom's original consultation and it does say the
> >> accuracy should be specified to a 95% certainty, so the rules of
> >> physics have been allowed for. Sorry I didn't include that in the
> >> earlier mail. They then allow for the accuracy to be varied to account
> >> for slave devices. Some of the language is probably a bit lax, but the
> >> protocol may need to cater for varying confidence levels across
> >> regulatory domains as you say. With the caveat that this is only one
> >> paragraph from Ofcom's consultation and not the full story, and their
> >> views may have moved on, their text on varying the location accuracy
> >> says:
> >>
> >> The slave devices will be some distance from the master device. As a
> >> result, they may be closer to a licensed receiver than the master and
> >> when they transmit they may cause interference. To prevent this
> >> occurring the master device needs to inform the database of the
> >> possible distance away that slave devices may be located and the
> >> database can then take this information into account when assigning
> >> frequencies and power levels. We propose that an effective way for the
> >> master device to do this is to increase its location uncertainty by an
> >> amount related to the maximum expected range between the master and
> >> slave device. Hence, if the master device knew its location accuracy to
> >> 100m and it knew that the maximum range to a slave device was 500m it
> >> would report a location accuracy of 600m to the database. The database
> >> would then search across all pixels within the possible location circle
> >> and return a result based on the minimum power level across all pixels
> >> for each frequency.
> >>
> >> (Ref paragraphs 3.14-3.15 in Implementing Geolocation (9 Nov 2010) at
> >> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/geolocation/s u
> >> m mary/geolocation.pdf)
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]
> >> Sent: 14 October 2011 13:39
> >> To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R
> >> Cc: Peter.McCann@huawei.com; paws@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>
> >> <as individual> While I recognize that regulators are not bound by the
> >> laws of physics, engineers generally are.   There are no measurement
> >> mechanisms I am aware of that will yield a lat/lon/altitude that do not
> >> have some form of confidence factor.  We have lots of experience with
> >> these issues in the U.S. cell phone emergency call system.  If you
> >> don't specify confidence, someone can give you an uncertainty of 10
> >> meters, and just not tell you that confidence is 20%.  More
> >> specifically, we actually did experience some measurements with 65%
> >> confidence being compared to some measurements with 95% confidence but
> >> the same uncertainty.  Big difference.
> >>
> >> So, while a regulator can choose to ignore confidence, the protocol
> >> cannot, IMHO.  There is no definition of "accuracy" that I'm aware of
> >> in the context of measured lat/lon which meets any engineering rigor.
> >> If the regulator says "accuracy", I would propose that the protocol
> >> translate that to "uncertainty" and if "confidence" is unspecified, I
> >> would default to 95%.
> >>
> >> Brian
> >>
> >> On Oct 14, 2011, at 8:03 AM, <andy.sago@bt.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Peter, Brian
> >>>
> >>> I agree that "uncertainty" and "confidence" are better terms, but
> >> "location accuracy" is also used by Ofcom in their consultation
> >> proposals. They allow the location accuracy to be varied in database
> >> queries to include the transmissions of the slaves, for example a 500m
> >> cell could be catered for by specifying the master location plus an
> >> accuracy of 600m, made up of 500m for the cell radius and 100m for the
> >> actual location uncertainty of the measurement made by the master
> > device.
> >>>
> >>> We are close to being able to propose two new use cases on the
> >> reflector and also have additional requirements that fall from
> >> those, particularly addressing the UK/Ofcom needs.
> >>>
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
> >>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter McCann Sent: 13
> >>> October 2011 22:37 To: Rosen, Brian Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re:
> >>> [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>>
> >>> The "accuracy" term comes from the list of requirements already
> >> proposed by Gabor.  I just added the second sentence.  However we
> >> define it, I'd like to make sure that the WS device can report its
> >> location as several points (with whatever uncertainty/confidence
> > measures for each one).
> >>> The database should find spectrum that is open at all of the given
> >>> points.
> >>>
> >>> -Pete
> >>>
> >>> Rosen, Brian wrote:
> >>>> We don't use the term "accuracy" when talking about location.  We use
> >>>> "uncertainty" and "confidence", as in "the location is within 10
> >>>> meters of X,Y with 95% confidence", which is a circular uncertainty
> >>>> area.
> >>>>
> >>>> Brian
> >>>>
> >>>> On Oct 13, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Peter McCann wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi, Gabor,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what
> >>>>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
> >>>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
> >>>>> can be a single point or a set of points.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Pete
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> >>>>>> Pete,
> >>>>>> If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
> >>>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol
> >>>>>> requirement to the list.
> >>>>>> -Gabor
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >>>>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> >>>>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas);
> >>>>>> gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> >>>>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi, Raj,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change
> >>>>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in
> >>>>>> step 8:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a
> > WRAN
> >>>>>>      transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The
> >>>>>>      slave/user device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in
> >>>>>>      turn, queries the database for a list of channels available at
> >>>>>>      the slaves' geolocation.
> >>>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that each
> >>>>>> of the devices could have independent Internet access and be
> >>>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
> >>>>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
> >>>>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
> >>>>>> notes to find a common free channel.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to
> >>>>>> have a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location
> >>>>>> elements (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
> >>>>>> queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon
> >>>>>> intersection test at each location, could additionally do a set
> >>>>>> intersection test on the remaining free channels and return the
> >>>>>> results.  That's one concrete way that this use case may impact the
> >>>>>> protocol specification.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -Pete




From Peter.McCann@huawei.com  Fri Oct 14 07:53:25 2011
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Hi, Gerald,

I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being
sent back from the WSDB if there are many channels free in 
all given locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could
be defined so that the common channels are sent only once?
That would be roughly equivalent to doing an intersection
but you would also send the additional information about the
channels that were free only in specific locations.  This
would allow the master device to do the kind of computations
you outline below.

-Pete


Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is done at the
> base station because the base station should be able to decide whether
> to accept association with a new user terminal or not, depending on
> the extent this new terminal limits the number of available channels.
> This would not be possible if this is done at the database.
> 
> The base station (or the master in more general terms) should maintain
> a local table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed EIRP per
> channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
> optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new terminal
> that asks to be associated that may reduce the number of available
> channels to only a few but, by disassociating another terminal in a
> different location, the local network would regain even more available
> channels, as a result of the intersection process.  The base station
> could then decide to stop its association with this second terminal
> and associate the first terminal.  This intelligence should not be
> relegated to the database but should be kept local at the base station.
> 
> Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
> associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all its
> terminals, the complete information should be obtained from the
> database so that the process of 'intersection' can take place at the
> base station.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> 
> At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union set of all
>> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to make sure the
>> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at each of the
>> listed locations.
>> 
>> -Pete
>> 
>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>> Pete,
>>> 
>>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:
>>> D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
>>> information for multiple locations.
>>> D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
>>> information for an area around a specified location.
>>> 
>>> -Gabor
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
>>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011
>>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil Basavaraj
>>> (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott
>>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case:
>>> simulcasting
>>> 
>>> Hi, Gabor,
>>> 
>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what
>>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>> 
>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
>>> can be a single point or a set of points.
>>> 
>>> -Pete
>>> 
>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to
>>>> the list. -Gabor
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
>>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
>>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
>>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>> 
>>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>> 
>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change
>>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in
>>>> step 8:
>>>> 
>>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a
> WRAN
>>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The
>>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in
>>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels available at
>>>>        the slaves' geolocation.
>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that
>>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access and be
>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
>>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
>>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
>>>> notes to find a common free channel.
>>>> 
>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have
>>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
>>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries
>>>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection
>>>> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection test
>>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one
>>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
>>>> 
>>>> -Pete
>>>> 


From gerald.chouinard@crc.ca  Fri Oct 14 08:10:14 2011
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To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>, "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
From: Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Pete,

Agreed.  A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS protocol 
and that is to query only only on a 'differential' basis, i.e., the 
database would only send what has changed since the last query. This could 
also be applied to the query message from the base station, i.e., sending 
only the information that would have changed since the last query (e.g., 
new terminal, changed geoposition, etc.).

Gerald

At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>Hi, Gerald,
>
>I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
>acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
>However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being
>sent back from the WSDB if there are many channels free in
>all given locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could
>be defined so that the common channels are sent only once?
>That would be roughly equivalent to doing an intersection
>but you would also send the additional information about the
>channels that were free only in specific locations.  This
>would allow the master device to do the kind of computations
>you outline below.
>
>-Pete
>
>
>Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> > Peter,
> >
> > In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is done at the
> > base station because the base station should be able to decide whether
> > to accept association with a new user terminal or not, depending on
> > the extent this new terminal limits the number of available channels.
> > This would not be possible if this is done at the database.
> >
> > The base station (or the master in more general terms) should maintain
> > a local table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed EIRP per
> > channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
> > optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new terminal
> > that asks to be associated that may reduce the number of available
> > channels to only a few but, by disassociating another terminal in a
> > different location, the local network would regain even more available
> > channels, as a result of the intersection process.  The base station
> > could then decide to stop its association with this second terminal
> > and associate the first terminal.  This intelligence should not be
> > relegated to the database but should be kept local at the base station.
> >
> > Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
> > associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all its
> > terminals, the complete information should be obtained from the
> > database so that the process of 'intersection' can take place at the
> > base station.
> >
> > Gerald
> >
> >
> > At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> >> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union set of all
> >> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to make sure the
> >> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at each of the
> >> listed locations.
> >>
> >> -Pete
> >>
> >> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> >>> Pete,
> >>>
> >>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:
> >>> D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> >>> information for multiple locations.
> >>> D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> >>> information for an area around a specified location.
> >>>
> >>> -Gabor
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
> >>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011
> >>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil Basavaraj
> >>> (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott
> >>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> >>> Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case:
> >>> simulcasting
> >>>
> >>> Hi, Gabor,
> >>>
> >>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of what
> >>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> >>>
> >>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
> >>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
> >>> can be a single point or a set of points.
> >>>
> >>> -Pete
> >>>
> >>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> >>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements may be
> >>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement to
> >>>> the list. -Gabor
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> >>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
> >>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> >>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi, Raj,
> >>>>
> >>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small change
> >>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text in
> >>>> step 8:
> >>>>
> >>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a
> > WRAN
> >>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The
> >>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the BS which, in
> >>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels available at
> >>>>        the slaves' geolocation.
> >>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that
> >>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access and be
> >>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
> >>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
> >>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
> >>>> notes to find a common free channel.
> >>>>
> >>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to have
> >>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
> >>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple queries
> >>>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon intersection
> >>>> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection test
> >>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's one
> >>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol specification.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Pete
> >>>>




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Thread-Topic: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios
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Hi Scott,

=20

   In the current IEEE 802.11af Draft 1.04 we have a requirement that a
client STA joining has to supply Device Identification Information (to
support the FCC model where the database can deny any channels based on
FCC ID) to the master STA in order to receive its own list of white
space channels (to support the FCC model). We have added the provision
that the device's spectrum masks are provided to support one of the
information requests, and will expand that to other joining
requirements. See 802.11-11/1349 (a work in progress) for how
communicating the spectrum masks evolves.

=20

petere

=20

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com [mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 5:50 AM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

Hi Peter,

=20

Could you describe how the master enforces the specified limits on the
client/slave devices? Perhaps the 'how' is beyond scope of PAWS, I am
just trying to understand how the system would operate.

=20

Regards,

Scott

=20

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:36:12 -0700
To: Raj Patil <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "paws@ietf.org"
<paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

Hi Raj,

=20

>> How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master device
that is generally making a query to the database. Clients devices can no
doubt make the query as well, but would this requirement be applicable
in such a case?<<

=20

   The database either makes assumptions about the transmissions of all
client devices, or it can be informed what emissions the client devices
will not exceed (because the master device will not allow clients to
exceed specified limits).=20

=20

   The general case is not all devices transmit with the same masks -
relatively loose-masked inexpensive devices can joint networks
controlled by higher-specification master devices - e.g., outdoor muni
wi-fi.

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:01 AM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

Hi Peter,

=20

So how about the following text that we could add in the requirements
section of the I-D:

=20

-          A white space master device should provide to the database in
the query a description of the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for
each occupied bandwidth in the set of frequency bands.=20

=20

You indicated that this is applicable to master devices and client
devices. How is it relevant for client devices? It is only the master
device that is generally making a query to the database. Clients devices
can no doubt make the query as well, but would this requirement be
applicable in such a case?

=20

-Raj

=20

From: ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

Hi Raj,

=20

The requirement for the protocol is to describe to the database the EIRP
limits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in each
frequency band, for master devices and for client devices (these are the
client spectrum masks I will permit to operate under my control).

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

From: Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com [mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 PM
To: Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth
radios

=20

=20

So what would be the requirement that we can specify for the
(device-2-database) protocol as a result of the need for various
spectrum masks?

=20

From: "ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi)" <pecclesi@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios

=20

In IEEE 802.11af discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY,
with several occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz,
in several TV bands (VHF and UHF).

=20

We see the need to tell the database several spectrum masks, each with:

                1 - Lowest applicable frequency in MHz

                2 - Highest applicable frequency in MHz

                3 - Maximum total EIRP over the frequency range defined
by the spectrum mask

                4 - General spectrum mask in dBr from peak transmit
power in EIRP, with specific power limit at any frequency linearly
interpolated between adjacent points of the spectrum mask, expressed
like IEEE 802.11p Annex I
[http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf] or FCC
47 C.F.R. 90.210(m).=20

                5- measurement resolution bandwidth for EIRP
measurements

=20

   This detailed actual spectrum occupancy information allows the
database to perform more accurate interference calculations.

=20

petere

Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst

MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706=20

Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256

"Time doesn't fool around."  "Without Prejudice" U.C.C. 1-207

_______________________________________________ paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws=20

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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Scott,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; In the =
current IEEE 802.11af Draft 1.04 we have a requirement that a client STA =
joining has to supply Device Identification Information (to support the =
FCC model where the database can deny any channels based on FCC ID) to =
the master STA in order to receive its own list of white space channels =
(to support the FCC model). We have added the provision that the =
device&#8217;s spectrum masks are provided to support one of the =
information requests, and will expand that to other joining =
requirements. See 802.11-11/1349 (a work in progress) for how =
communicating the spectrum masks evolves.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>petere<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706 </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without =
Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
scott.probasco@nokia.com [mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 14, 2011 5:50 AM<br><b>To:</b> Peter =
Ecclesine (pecclesi); Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; =
paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used =
by multi-bandwidth radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Hi =
Peter,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Could you describe how the master =
enforces the specified limits on the client/slave devices? Perhaps the =
'how' is beyond scope of PAWS, I am just trying to understand how the =
system would operate.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From: =
</span></b><span style=3D'color:black'>&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine =
(pecclesi)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:=
 </b>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:36:12 -0700<br><b>To: </b>Raj Patil &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a>&g=
t;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: =
</b>Re: [paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth =
radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi =
Raj,</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&gt;&gt; How is it relevant for client devices? =
It is only the master device that is generally making a query to the =
database. Clients devices can no doubt make the query as well, but would =
this requirement be applicable in such a case?&lt;&lt;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; The database either makes =
assumptions about the transmissions of all client devices, or it can be =
informed what emissions the client devices will not exceed (because the =
master device will not allow clients to exceed specified limits). =
</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; The general case is not all devices =
transmit with the same masks &#8211; relatively loose-masked inexpensive =
devices can joint networks controlled by higher-specification master =
devices &#8211; e.g., outdoor muni wi-fi.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>petere</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706 </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without =
Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
 <a =
href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.co=
m</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:01 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Peter,</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>So how about the following text that we could =
add in the requirements section of the I-D:</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>-</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>A white space master =
device should provide to the database in the query a description of the =
EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for each occupied bandwidth in the =
set of frequency bands. </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>You indicated that this is applicable to master =
devices and client devices. How is it relevant for client devices? It is =
only the master device that is generally making a query to the database. =
Clients devices can no doubt make the query as well, but would this =
requirement be applicable in such a case?</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>-Raj</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
 ext Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> Patil =
Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); <a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: =
[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Raj,</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The requirement for the protocol is to describe =
to the database the EIRP limits that will not be exceeded for each =
occupied bandwidth in each frequency band, for master devices and for =
client devices (these are the client spectrum masks I will permit to =
operate under my control).</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>petere</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Peter Ecclesine, Technology Analyst</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>MS SJ-14-4 170 West Tasman Dr, San Jose, CA 95134-1706 </span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Ph 408/527-0815, FAX 408/525-9256</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>&quot;Time doesn't fool around.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Without =
Prejudice&quot; U.C.C. 1-207</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
 <a =
href=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a> =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:[mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com]">[mailto:Basavaraj.Pati=
l@nokia.com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:30 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Peter Ecclesine (pecclesi); <a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth radios</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>So what =
would be the requirement that we can specify for the (device-2-database) =
protocol as a result of the need for various spectrum masks?</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From: =
</span></b><span style=3D'color:black'>&quot;ext Peter Ecclesine =
(pecclesi)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com">pecclesi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:=
 </b>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:52:32 -0700<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: =
</b>[paws] Several spectrum masks used by multi-bandwidth =
radios<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>In IEEE 802.11af =
discussions, we expect to use a modified 802.11ac PHY, with several =
occupied bandwidths, for example 4 MHz, 8 MHz and 16 MHz, in several TV =
bands (VHF and UHF).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>We see the need to tell =
the database several spectrum masks, each with:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 &#8211; Lowest applicable =
frequency in MHz</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 &#8211; Highest applicable =
frequency in MHz</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 &#8211; Maximum total EIRP =
over the frequency range defined by the spectrum mask</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 &#8211; General spectrum =
mask in dBr from peak transmit power in EIRP, with specific power limit =
at any frequency linearly interpolated between adjacent points of the =
spectrum mask, expressed like IEEE 802.11p Annex I [<a =
href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf">h=
ttp://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11p-2010.pdf</a>] or =
FCC 47 C.F.R. 90.210(m). </span><span =
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style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
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style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; This detailed actual spectrum =
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From paul@marvell.com  Fri Oct 14 10:46:41 2011
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From: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
To: Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>,  "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:45:15 -0700
Thread-Topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
Thread-Index: AcyKg2IsK6++6Pl5QZahADrxhUfncAAFVfXw
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References: <5.1.0.14.2.20111014101957.01bb6ff8@imap.crc.ca> <" <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612E03A"@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE71596A37A@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CA964C53.10BD2%basavaraj.patil@nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE71596A39B@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612DAEC@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE716401932@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612E03A@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014101957.01bb6ff8@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014110412.01b7bed0@imap.crc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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I think we may be over designing.  The union is interesting - but it limits=
 a device from using all available channels in any particular location.

Paul


Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141


> -----Original Message-----
> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Gerald Chouinard
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 8:09 AM
> To: Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com;
> scott.probasco@nokia.com
> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>=20
> Pete,
>=20
> Agreed.  A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS
> protocol
> and that is to query only only on a 'differential' basis, i.e., the
> database would only send what has changed since the last query. This
> could
> also be applied to the query message from the base station, i.e.,
> sending
> only the information that would have changed since the last query
> (e.g.,
> new terminal, changed geoposition, etc.).
>=20
> Gerald
>=20
> At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> >Hi, Gerald,
> >
> >I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
> >acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
> >However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being
> >sent back from the WSDB if there are many channels free in
> >all given locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could
> >be defined so that the common channels are sent only once?
> >That would be roughly equivalent to doing an intersection
> >but you would also send the additional information about the
> >channels that were free only in specific locations.  This
> >would allow the master device to do the kind of computations
> >you outline below.
> >
> >-Pete
> >
> >
> >Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> > > Peter,
> > >
> > > In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is done at
> the
> > > base station because the base station should be able to decide
> whether
> > > to accept association with a new user terminal or not, depending on
> > > the extent this new terminal limits the number of available
> channels.
> > > This would not be possible if this is done at the database.
> > >
> > > The base station (or the master in more general terms) should
> maintain
> > > a local table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed EIRP
> per
> > > channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
> > > optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new terminal
> > > that asks to be associated that may reduce the number of available
> > > channels to only a few but, by disassociating another terminal in a
> > > different location, the local network would regain even more
> available
> > > channels, as a result of the intersection process.  The base
> station
> > > could then decide to stop its association with this second terminal
> > > and associate the first terminal.  This intelligence should not be
> > > relegated to the database but should be kept local at the base
> station.
> > >
> > > Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
> > > associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all its
> > > terminals, the complete information should be obtained from the
> > > database so that the process of 'intersection' can take place at
> the
> > > base station.
> > >
> > > Gerald
> > >
> > >
> > > At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> > >> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union set
> of all
> > >> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to make sure
> the
> > >> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at each
> of the
> > >> listed locations.
> > >>
> > >> -Pete
> > >>
> > >> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> > >>> Pete,
> > >>>
> > >>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:
> > >>> D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> > >>> information for multiple locations.
> > >>> D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> > >>> information for an area around a specified location.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Gabor
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
> > >>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011
> > >>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil
> Basavaraj
> > >>> (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott
> > >>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> > >>> Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case:
> > >>> simulcasting
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi, Gabor,
> > >>>
> > >>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of
> what
> > >>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> > >>>
> > >>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
> > >>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
> > >>> can be a single point or a set of points.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Pete
> > >>>
> > >>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> > >>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements
> may be
> > >>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement
> to
> > >>>> the list. -Gabor
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > >>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> > >>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
> > >>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> > >>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi, Raj,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small
> change
> > >>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text
> in
> > >>>> step 8:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a
> > > WRAN
> > >>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The
> > >>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the BS
> which, in
> > >>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels
> available at
> > >>>>        the slaves' geolocation.
> > >>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that
> > >>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access and
> be
> > >>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
> > >>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
> > >>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
> > >>>> notes to find a common free channel.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to
> have
> > >>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
> > >>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
> queries
> > >>>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon
> intersection
> > >>>> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection
> test
> > >>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's
> one
> > >>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol
> specification.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -Pete
> > >>>>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

From gerald.chouinard@crc.ca  Fri Oct 14 12:51:55 2011
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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 15:51:31 -0400
To: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>,Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>, "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
From: Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Paul,

Obviously, the 'union', as you call it, assumes that all the devices 
included form a network and need to operate on the same channel. If a 
device wants to operate on a different channel, it no longer belongs to the 
same wireless network and needs to query the database for itself, either 
directly or through another master device as 15.711(3)(e) of the MO&O 
allows.  In such case, the process of intersection of the lists of 
available channels would not apply.

Gerald


At 10:45 14-10-11 -0700, Paul Lambert wrote:
>I think we may be over designing.  The union is interesting - but it 
>limits a device from using all available channels in any particular location.
>
>Paul
>
>
>Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > Gerald Chouinard
> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 8:09 AM
> > To: Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com;
> > scott.probasco@nokia.com
> > Cc: paws@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >
> > Pete,
> >
> > Agreed.  A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS
> > protocol
> > and that is to query only only on a 'differential' basis, i.e., the
> > database would only send what has changed since the last query. This
> > could
> > also be applied to the query message from the base station, i.e.,
> > sending
> > only the information that would have changed since the last query
> > (e.g.,
> > new terminal, changed geoposition, etc.).
> >
> > Gerald
> >
> > At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> > >Hi, Gerald,
> > >
> > >I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
> > >acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
> > >However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being
> > >sent back from the WSDB if there are many channels free in
> > >all given locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could
> > >be defined so that the common channels are sent only once?
> > >That would be roughly equivalent to doing an intersection
> > >but you would also send the additional information about the
> > >channels that were free only in specific locations.  This
> > >would allow the master device to do the kind of computations
> > >you outline below.
> > >
> > >-Pete
> > >
> > >
> > >Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> > > > Peter,
> > > >
> > > > In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is done at
> > the
> > > > base station because the base station should be able to decide
> > whether
> > > > to accept association with a new user terminal or not, depending on
> > > > the extent this new terminal limits the number of available
> > channels.
> > > > This would not be possible if this is done at the database.
> > > >
> > > > The base station (or the master in more general terms) should
> > maintain
> > > > a local table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed EIRP
> > per
> > > > channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
> > > > optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new terminal
> > > > that asks to be associated that may reduce the number of available
> > > > channels to only a few but, by disassociating another terminal in a
> > > > different location, the local network would regain even more
> > available
> > > > channels, as a result of the intersection process.  The base
> > station
> > > > could then decide to stop its association with this second terminal
> > > > and associate the first terminal.  This intelligence should not be
> > > > relegated to the database but should be kept local at the base
> > station.
> > > >
> > > > Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
> > > > associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all its
> > > > terminals, the complete information should be obtained from the
> > > > database so that the process of 'intersection' can take place at
> > the
> > > > base station.
> > > >
> > > > Gerald
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> > > >> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union set
> > of all
> > > >> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to make sure
> > the
> > > >> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at each
> > of the
> > > >> listed locations.
> > > >>
> > > >> -Pete
> > > >>
> > > >> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> > > >>> Pete,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:
> > > >>> D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> > > >>> information for multiple locations.
> > > >>> D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
> > > >>> information for an area around a specified location.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -Gabor
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
> > > >>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011
> > > >>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil
> > Basavaraj
> > > >>> (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott
> > > >>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> > > >>> Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case:
> > > >>> simulcasting
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi, Gabor,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of
> > what
> > > >>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
> > > >>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
> > > >>> can be a single point or a set of points.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -Pete
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> > > >>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements
> > may be
> > > >>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol requirement
> > to
> > > >>>> the list. -Gabor
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > > >>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
> > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> > > >>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
> > > >>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> > > >>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Hi, Raj,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small
> > change
> > > >>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this text
> > in
> > > >>>> step 8:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a
> > > > WRAN
> > > >>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The
> > > >>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the BS
> > which, in
> > > >>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels
> > available at
> > > >>>>        the slaves' geolocation.
> > > >>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that
> > > >>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access and
> > be
> > > >>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
> > > >>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
> > > >>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
> > > >>>> notes to find a common free channel.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to
> > have
> > > >>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
> > > >>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
> > queries
> > > >>>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon
> > intersection
> > > >>>> test at each location, could additionally do a set intersection
> > test
> > > >>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.  That's
> > one
> > > >>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol
> > specification.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -Pete
> > > >>>>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > paws mailing list
> > paws@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws




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From: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
To: Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>,  "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:01:14 -0700
Thread-Topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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References: <5.1.0.14.2.20111014110412.01b7bed0@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014101957.01bb6ff8@imap.crc.ca> <" <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612E03A"@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE71596A37A@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CA964C53.10BD2%basavaraj.patil@nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE71596A39B@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612DAEC@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE716401932@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612E03A@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014101957.01bb6ff8@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014110412.01b7bed0@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014154259.01babe28@imap.crc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Masters in multiple locations might not all operate on the same channel.  T=
here is no need for them to all be in the same channel.  They may all be co=
nnected in a mesh or other type of typology.

I feel it would be better to have simple set of queries/operations that can=
 be combined by clients into more complex operations than attempt to accomm=
odate all possible complex processing that we can envision in a database. =
=20

Paul

Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gerald Chouinard [mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.ca]
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 12:52 PM
> To: Paul Lambert; Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com;
> Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; scott.probasco@nokia.com
> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>=20
> Paul,
>=20
> Obviously, the 'union', as you call it, assumes that all the devices
> included form a network and need to operate on the same channel. If a
> device wants to operate on a different channel, it no longer belongs to
> the
> same wireless network and needs to query the database for itself,
> either
> directly or through another master device as 15.711(3)(e) of the MO&O
> allows.  In such case, the process of intersection of the lists of
> available channels would not apply.
>=20
> Gerald
>=20
>=20
> At 10:45 14-10-11 -0700, Paul Lambert wrote:
> >I think we may be over designing.  The union is interesting - but it
> >limits a device from using all available channels in any particular
> location.
> >
> >Paul
> >
> >
> >Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of
> > > Gerald Chouinard
> > > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 8:09 AM
> > > To: Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com;
> > > scott.probasco@nokia.com
> > > Cc: paws@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> > >
> > > Pete,
> > >
> > > Agreed.  A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS
> > > protocol
> > > and that is to query only only on a 'differential' basis, i.e., the
> > > database would only send what has changed since the last query.
> This
> > > could
> > > also be applied to the query message from the base station, i.e.,
> > > sending
> > > only the information that would have changed since the last query
> > > (e.g.,
> > > new terminal, changed geoposition, etc.).
> > >
> > > Gerald
> > >
> > > At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> > > >Hi, Gerald,
> > > >
> > > >I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
> > > >acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
> > > >However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being
> > > >sent back from the WSDB if there are many channels free in
> > > >all given locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could
> > > >be defined so that the common channels are sent only once?
> > > >That would be roughly equivalent to doing an intersection
> > > >but you would also send the additional information about the
> > > >channels that were free only in specific locations.  This
> > > >would allow the master device to do the kind of computations
> > > >you outline below.
> > > >
> > > >-Pete
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> > > > > Peter,
> > > > >
> > > > > In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is done
> at
> > > the
> > > > > base station because the base station should be able to decide
> > > whether
> > > > > to accept association with a new user terminal or not,
> depending on
> > > > > the extent this new terminal limits the number of available
> > > channels.
> > > > > This would not be possible if this is done at the database.
> > > > >
> > > > > The base station (or the master in more general terms) should
> > > maintain
> > > > > a local table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed
> EIRP
> > > per
> > > > > channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
> > > > > optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new
> terminal
> > > > > that asks to be associated that may reduce the number of
> available
> > > > > channels to only a few but, by disassociating another terminal
> in a
> > > > > different location, the local network would regain even more
> > > available
> > > > > channels, as a result of the intersection process.  The base
> > > station
> > > > > could then decide to stop its association with this second
> terminal
> > > > > and associate the first terminal.  This intelligence should not
> be
> > > > > relegated to the database but should be kept local at the base
> > > station.
> > > > >
> > > > > Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
> > > > > associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all
> its
> > > > > terminals, the complete information should be obtained from the
> > > > > database so that the process of 'intersection' can take place
> at
> > > the
> > > > > base station.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gerald
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> > > > >> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union
> set
> > > of all
> > > > >> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to make
> sure
> > > the
> > > > >> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at
> each
> > > of the
> > > > >> listed locations.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -Pete
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> > > > >>> Pete,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:
> > > > >>> D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel
> availability
> > > > >>> information for multiple locations.
> > > > >>> D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel
> availability
> > > > >>> information for an area around a specified location.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -Gabor
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
> > > > >>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October 13,
> 2011
> > > > >>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil
> > > Basavaraj
> > > > >>> (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott
> > > > >>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> > > > >>> Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case:
> > > > >>> simulcasting
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Hi, Gabor,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of
> > > what
> > > > >>> you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of
> the
> > > > >>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here,
> "location"
> > > > >>> can be a single point or a set of points.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -Pete
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> > > > >>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the
> requirements
> > > may be
> > > > >>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol
> requirement
> > > to
> > > > >>>> the list. -Gabor
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]
> On
> > > > >>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
> > > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM
> > > > >>>> To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas);
> gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
> > > > >>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)
> > > > >>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Hi, Raj,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small
> > > change
> > > > >>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this
> text
> > > in
> > > > >>>> step 8:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate
> a
> > > > > WRAN
> > > > >>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS.  The
> > > > >>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the BS
> > > which, in
> > > > >>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels
> > > available at
> > > > >>>>        the slaves' geolocation.
> > > > >>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact
> that
> > > > >>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access
> and
> > > be
> > > > >>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one
> BS
> > > > >>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could
> query
> > > > >>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could
> compare
> > > > >>>> notes to find a common free channel.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want
> to
> > > have
> > > > >>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location
> elements
> > > > >>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
> > > queries
> > > > >>>> across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon
> > > intersection
> > > > >>>> test at each location, could additionally do a set
> intersection
> > > test
> > > > >>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.
> That's
> > > one
> > > > >>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol
> > > specification.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> -Pete
> > > > >>>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > paws mailing list
> > > paws@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>=20
>=20


From Peter.McCann@huawei.com  Fri Oct 14 13:50:00 2011
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References: <5.1.0.14.2.20111014110412.01b7bed0@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014101957.01bb6ff8@imap.crc.ca> <" <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612E03A"@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE71596A37A@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CA964C53.10BD2%basavaraj.patil@nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE71596A39B@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612DAEC@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE716401932@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612E03A@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014101957.01bb6ff8@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014110412.01b7bed0@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014154259.01babe28@imap.crc.ca> <7BAC95F5A7E67643AAFB2C31BEE662D0141EAD9593@SC-VEXCH2.marvell.com>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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I think all that is being suggested is the ability to "batch" several
simple requests into one message, such as when the master knows the locations
of several other nodes (they could be slaves or other masters) and the
database then independently processes each query.  It is only for efficiency
that the responses could be processed together to remove redundancy.  Think
of it as a compression algorithm that runs on the list of XML responses being
returned.

-Pete

Paul Lambert wrote:
> Masters in multiple locations might not all operate on the same
> channel.  There is no need for them to all be in the same channel.
> They may all be connected in a mesh or other type of typology.
> 
> I feel it would be better to have simple set of queries/operations
> that can be combined by clients into more complex operations than
> attempt to accommodate all possible complex processing that we can
> envision in a database.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gerald Chouinard [mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.ca]
>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 12:52 PM
>> To: Paul Lambert; Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com;
>> Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; scott.probasco@nokia.com
>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>> 
>> Paul,
>> 
>> Obviously, the 'union', as you call it, assumes that all the devices
>> included form a network and need to operate on the same channel. If
>> a device wants to operate on a different channel, it no longer
>> belongs to the same wireless network and needs to query the database
>> for itself, either directly or through another master device as
>> 15.711(3)(e) of the MO&O allows.  In such case, the process of
>> intersection of the lists of available channels would not apply.
>> 
>> Gerald
>> 
>> 
>> At 10:45 14-10-11 -0700, Paul Lambert wrote:
>>> I think we may be over designing.  The union is interesting - but it
>>> limits a device from using all available channels in any particular
>>> location.
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gerald Chouinard Sent:
>>>> Friday, October 14, 2011 8:09 AM To: Peter McCann;
>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com;
>>>> scott.probasco@nokia.com Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re: [paws]
>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>> 
>>>> Pete,
>>>> 
>>>> Agreed.  A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS
>>>> protocol and that is to query only only on a 'differential' basis,
>>>> i.e., the database would only send what has changed since the last
>>>> query. This could also be applied to the query message from the base
>>>> station, i.e., sending only the information that would have changed
>>>> since the last query (e.g., new terminal, changed geoposition, etc.).
>>>> 
>>>> Gerald
>>>> 
>>>> At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>>>>> Hi, Gerald,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
>>>>> acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
>>>>> However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being sent back
>>>>> from the WSDB if there are many channels free in all given
>>>>> locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could be defined so
>>>>> that the common channels are sent only once? That would be roughly
>>>>> equivalent to doing an intersection but you would also send the
>>>>> additional information about the channels that were free only in
>>>>> specific locations.  This would allow the master device to do the
>>>>> kind of computations you outline below.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Pete
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gerald Chouinard wrote:
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is
>>>>>> done
>> at
>>>> the
>>>>>> base station because the base station should be able to
> decide
>>>> whether
>>>>>> to accept association with a new user terminal or not, depending on
>>>>>> the extent this new terminal limits the number of available
>>>>>> channels. This would not be possible if this is done at the
>>>>>> database.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The base station (or the master in more general terms) should
>>>>>> maintain a local table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed
>> EIRP
>>>> per
>>>>>> channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
>>>>>> optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new terminal
>>>>>> that asks to be associated that may reduce the number of available
>>>>>> channels to only a few but, by disassociating another
> terminal
>> in a
>>>>>> different location, the local network would regain even more
>>>>>> available channels, as a result of the intersection process.  The
>>>>>> base station could then decide to stop its association with this
>>>>>> second terminal and associate the first terminal.  This
>>>>>> intelligence should not be relegated to the database but should be
>>>>>> kept local at the
> base
>>>> station.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
>>>>>> associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all its
>>>>>> terminals, the complete information should be obtained from the
>>>>>> database so that the process of 'intersection' can take place
>> at
>>>> the
>>>>>> base station.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>>>>>>> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the
>>>>>>> union
>> set
>>>> of all
>>>>>>> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to
> make
>> sure
>>>> the
>>>>>>> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at
>> each
>>>> of the
>>>>>>> listed locations.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement: D.6: The Data Model MUST
>>>>>>>> support specifying channel availability information for multiple
>>>>>>>> locations. D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel
>>>>>>>> availability information for an area around a specified location.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -Gabor
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
>>>>>>>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October
> 13,
>> 2011
>>>>>>>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil
>>>>>>>> Basavaraj (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco
>>>>>>>> Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas) Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws]
>>>>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi, Gabor,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of
>>>>>>>> what you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
>>>>>>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
>>>>>>>> can be a single point or a set of points.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the
>> requirements
>>>> may be
>>>>>>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol
>> requirement
>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the list. -Gabor
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM To: Patil Basavaraj
>>>>>>>>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott
>>>>>>>>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas) Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re: [paws]
>>>>>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small
>>>>>>>>> change along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this
>> text
>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> step 8:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to
>>>>>>>>> locate
>> a
>>>>>> WRAN
>>>>>>>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS. The
>>>>>>>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the
> BS
>>>> which, in
>>>>>>>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels
>>>>>>>>>        available at the slaves' geolocation.
>>>>>>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that
>>>>>>>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access
>> and
>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
>>>>>>>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
>>>>>>>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
>>>>>>>>> notes to find a common free channel.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may
>>>>>>>>> want
>> to
>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
>>>>>>>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
>>>>>>>>> queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon
>>>>>>>>> intersection test at each location, could additionally do a set
>> intersection
>>>> test
>>>>>>>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.
>> That's
>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol
>>>>>>>>> specification.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>>>> 


From Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com  Fri Oct 14 13:55:36 2011
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To: <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, <paul@marvell.com>, <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>,  <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>, <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
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Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Pete,

How would it be different from a query by a mobile master device which
requests channel availability information at a set of locations that it
may potentially be moving across rather than just its current location?

-Raj

On 10/14/11 3:49 PM, "ext Peter McCann" <Peter.McCann@huawei.com> wrote:

>I think all that is being suggested is the ability to "batch" several
>simple requests into one message, such as when the master knows the
>locations
>of several other nodes (they could be slaves or other masters) and the
>database then independently processes each query.  It is only for
>efficiency
>that the responses could be processed together to remove redundancy.
>Think
>of it as a compression algorithm that runs on the list of XML responses
>being
>returned.
>
>-Pete
>
>Paul Lambert wrote:
>> Masters in multiple locations might not all operate on the same
>> channel.  There is no need for them to all be in the same channel.
>> They may all be connected in a mesh or other type of typology.
>>=20
>> I feel it would be better to have simple set of queries/operations
>> that can be combined by clients into more complex operations than
>> attempt to accommodate all possible complex processing that we can
>> envision in a database.
>>=20
>> Paul
>>=20
>> Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
>>=20
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Gerald Chouinard [mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.ca]
>>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 12:52 PM
>>> To: Paul Lambert; Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com;
>>> Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; scott.probasco@nokia.com
>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>=20
>>> Paul,
>>>=20
>>> Obviously, the 'union', as you call it, assumes that all the devices
>>> included form a network and need to operate on the same channel. If
>>> a device wants to operate on a different channel, it no longer
>>> belongs to the same wireless network and needs to query the database
>>> for itself, either directly or through another master device as
>>> 15.711(3)(e) of the MO&O allows.  In such case, the process of
>>> intersection of the lists of available channels would not apply.
>>>=20
>>> Gerald
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> At 10:45 14-10-11 -0700, Paul Lambert wrote:
>>>> I think we may be over designing.  The union is interesting - but it
>>>> limits a device from using all available channels in any particular
>>>> location.
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gerald Chouinard Sent:
>>>>> Friday, October 14, 2011 8:09 AM To: Peter McCann;
>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com;
>>>>> scott.probasco@nokia.com Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re: [paws]
>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Agreed.  A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS
>>>>> protocol and that is to query only only on a 'differential' basis,
>>>>> i.e., the database would only send what has changed since the last
>>>>> query. This could also be applied to the query message from the base
>>>>> station, i.e., sending only the information that would have changed
>>>>> since the last query (e.g., new terminal, changed geoposition, etc.).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>=20
>>>>> At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>>>>>> Hi, Gerald,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
>>>>>> acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
>>>>>> However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being sent back
>>>>>> from the WSDB if there are many channels free in all given
>>>>>> locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could be defined so
>>>>>> that the common channels are sent only once? That would be roughly
>>>>>> equivalent to doing an intersection but you would also send the
>>>>>> additional information about the channels that were free only in
>>>>>> specific locations.  This would allow the master device to do the
>>>>>> kind of computations you outline below.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Gerald Chouinard wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is
>>>>>>> done
>>> at
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> base station because the base station should be able to
>> decide
>>>>> whether
>>>>>>> to accept association with a new user terminal or not, depending on
>>>>>>> the extent this new terminal limits the number of available
>>>>>>> channels. This would not be possible if this is done at the
>>>>>>> database.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The base station (or the master in more general terms) should
>>>>>>> maintain a local table of available channel sets (or maximum
>>>>>>>allowed
>>> EIRP
>>>>> per
>>>>>>> channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
>>>>>>> optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new terminal
>>>>>>> that asks to be associated that may reduce the number of available
>>>>>>> channels to only a few but, by disassociating another
>> terminal
>>> in a
>>>>>>> different location, the local network would regain even more
>>>>>>> available channels, as a result of the intersection process.  The
>>>>>>> base station could then decide to stop its association with this
>>>>>>> second terminal and associate the first terminal.  This
>>>>>>> intelligence should not be relegated to the database but should be
>>>>>>> kept local at the
>> base
>>>>> station.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
>>>>>>> associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all its
>>>>>>> terminals, the complete information should be obtained from the
>>>>>>> database so that the process of 'intersection' can take place
>>> at
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> base station.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>>>>>>>> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the
>>>>>>>> union
>>> set
>>>>> of all
>>>>>>>> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to
>> make
>>> sure
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at
>>> each
>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> listed locations.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement: D.6: The Data Model MUST
>>>>>>>>> support specifying channel availability information for multiple
>>>>>>>>> locations. D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel
>>>>>>>>> availability information for an area around a specified location.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> -Gabor
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October
>> 13,
>>> 2011
>>>>>>>>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil
>>>>>>>>> Basavaraj (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco
>>>>>>>>> Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas) Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws]
>>>>>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Hi, Gabor,
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of
>>>>>>>>> what you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
>>>>>>>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here, "location"
>>>>>>>>> can be a single point or a set of points.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the
>>> requirements
>>>>> may be
>>>>>>>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol
>>> requirement
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the list. -Gabor
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM To: Patil Basavaraj
>>>>>>>>>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott
>>>>>>>>>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas) Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re: [paws]
>>>>>>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small
>>>>>>>>>> change along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is this
>>> text
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> step 8:
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to
>>>>>>>>>> locate
>>> a
>>>>>>> WRAN
>>>>>>>>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS. The
>>>>>>>>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the
>> BS
>>>>> which, in
>>>>>>>>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels
>>>>>>>>>>        available at the slaves' geolocation.
>>>>>>>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that
>>>>>>>>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access
>>> and
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one BS
>>>>>>>>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query
>>>>>>>>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could compare
>>>>>>>>>> notes to find a common free channel.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>> to
>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location elements
>>>>>>>>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
>>>>>>>>>> queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the polygon
>>>>>>>>>> intersection test at each location, could additionally do a set
>>> intersection
>>>>> test
>>>>>>>>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.
>>> That's
>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol
>>>>>>>>>> specification.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>


From Peter.McCann@huawei.com  Fri Oct 14 13:58:39 2011
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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:58:13 +0000
From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
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Thread-topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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Right, I don't think the protocol needs to care why the multiple
locations are being given.  Hopefully the protocol will satisfy
the simulcasting and mobility scenarios with the same mechanisms.

-Pete

Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com wrote:
> 
> Pete,
> 
> How would it be different from a query by a mobile master device which
> requests channel availability information at a set of locations that
> it may potentially be moving across rather than just its current location?
> 
> -Raj
> 
> On 10/14/11 3:49 PM, "ext Peter McCann" <Peter.McCann@huawei.com> wrote:
> 
>> I think all that is being suggested is the ability to "batch" several
>> simple requests into one message, such as when the master knows the
>> locations of several other nodes (they could be slaves or other
>> masters) and the database then independently processes each query. It
>> is only for efficiency that the responses could be processed together
>> to remove redundancy. Think of it as a compression algorithm that runs
>> on the list of XML responses being returned.
>> 
>> -Pete
>> 
>> Paul Lambert wrote:
>>> Masters in multiple locations might not all operate on the same
>>> channel.  There is no need for them to all be in the same channel.
>>> They may all be connected in a mesh or other type of typology.
>>> 
>>> I feel it would be better to have simple set of queries/operations
>>> that can be combined by clients into more complex operations than
>>> attempt to accommodate all possible complex processing that we can
>>> envision in a database.
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Gerald Chouinard [mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.ca]
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 12:52 PM
>>>> To: Paul Lambert; Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com;
>>>> Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; scott.probasco@nokia.com
>>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>> 
>>>> Paul,
>>>> 
>>>> Obviously, the 'union', as you call it, assumes that all the devices
>>>> included form a network and need to operate on the same channel. If a
>>>> device wants to operate on a different channel, it no longer belongs
>>>> to the same wireless network and needs to query the database for
>>>> itself, either directly or through another master device as
>>>> 15.711(3)(e) of the MO&O allows.  In such case, the process of
>>>> intersection of the lists of available channels would not apply.
>>>> 
>>>> Gerald
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> At 10:45 14-10-11 -0700, Paul Lambert wrote:
>>>>> I think we may be over designing.  The union is interesting - but
>>>>> it limits a device from using all available channels in any
>>>>> particular location.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gerald Chouinard Sent:
>>>>>> Friday, October 14, 2011 8:09 AM To: Peter McCann;
>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com;
>>>>>> scott.probasco@nokia.com Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re: [paws]
>>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Agreed.  A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS
>>>>>> protocol and that is to query only only on a 'differential' basis,
>>>>>> i.e., the database would only send what has changed since the last
>>>>>> query. This could also be applied to the query message from the
>>>>>> base station, i.e., sending only the information that would have
>>>>>> changed since the last query (e.g., new terminal, changed
>>>>>> geoposition, etc.).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi, Gerald,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
>>>>>>> acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
>>>>>>> However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being sent back
>>>>>>> from the WSDB if there are many channels free in all given
>>>>>>> locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could be defined so
>>>>>>> that the common channels are sent only once? That would be roughly
>>>>>>> equivalent to doing an intersection but you would also send the
>>>>>>> additional information about the channels that were free only in
>>>>>>> specific locations.  This would allow the master device to do the
>>>>>>> kind of computations you outline below.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Gerald Chouinard wrote:
>>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is done
>>>> at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> base station because the base station should be able to
>>> decide
>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>> to accept association with a new user terminal or not, depending
>>>>>>>> on the extent this new terminal limits the number of available
>>>>>>>> channels. This would not be possible if this is done at the
>>>>>>>> database.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The base station (or the master in more general terms) should
>>>>>>>> maintain a local table of available channel sets (or maximum
>>>>>>>> allowed
>>>> EIRP
>>>>>> per
>>>>>>>> channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
>>>>>>>> optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new
>>>>>>>> terminal that asks to be associated that may reduce the number
>>>>>>>> of available channels to only a few but, by disassociating
>>>>>>>> another
>>> terminal
>>>> in a
>>>>>>>> different location, the local network would regain even more
>>>>>>>> available channels, as a result of the intersection process.
>>>>>>>> The base station could then decide to stop its association
>>>>>>>> with this second terminal and associate the first terminal.
>>>>>>>> This intelligence should not be relegated to the database but
>>>>>>>> should be kept local at the
>>> base
>>>>>> station.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
>>>>>>>> associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all
>>>>>>>> its terminals, the complete information should be obtained
>>>>>>>> from the database so that the process of 'intersection' can
>>>>>>>> take place
>>>> at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> base station.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
>>>>>>>>> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union
>>>> set
>>>>>> of all
>>>>>>>>> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to
>>> make
>>>> sure
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at
>>>> each
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>> listed locations.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement: D.6: The Data Model MUST
>>>>>>>>>> support specifying channel availability information for
>>>>>>>>>> multiple locations. D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying
>>>>>>>>>> channel availability information for an area around a specified
>>>>>>>>>> location.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -Gabor
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October
>>> 13,
>>>> 2011
>>>>>>>>>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil
>>>>>>>>>> Basavaraj (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
>>>>>>>>>> Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas) Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject:
>>>>>>>>>> RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Gabor,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement
>>>>>>>>>> of what you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the
>>>>>>>>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here,
>>>>>>>>>> "location" can be a single point or a set of points.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the
>>>> requirements
>>>>>> may be
>>>>>>>>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol
>>>> requirement
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> the list. -Gabor
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Peter
>>>>>>>>>>> McCann
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM To: Patil
>>>>>>>>>>> Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
>>>>>>>>>>> Probasco Scott
>>>>>>>>>>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas) Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re: [paws]
>>>>>>>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Raj,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small
>>>>>>>>>>> change along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>> text
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> step 8:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to
>>>>>>>>>>> locate
>>>> a
>>>>>>>> WRAN
>>>>>>>>>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS. The
>>>>>>>>>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the
>>> BS
>>>>>> which, in
>>>>>>>>>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels
>>>>>>>>>>>        available at the slaves' geolocation.
>>>>>>>>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that
>>>>>>>>>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access
>>>> and
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one
>>>>>>>>>>> BS that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could
>>>>>>>>>>> query themselves (each for their own location) and they could
>>>>>>>>>>> compare notes to find a common free channel.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may
>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>> to
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location
>>>>>>>>>>> elements (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of
>>>>>>>>>>> multiple queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing
>>>>>>>>>>> the polygon intersection test at each location, could
>>>>>>>>>>> additionally do a
> set
>>>> intersection
>>>>>> test
>>>>>>>>>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.
>>>> That's
>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol
>>>>>>>>>>> specification.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -Pete
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>




From paul@marvell.com  Fri Oct 14 14:14:08 2011
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From: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>, "Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>,  "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:12:32 -0700
Thread-Topic: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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References: <5.1.0.14.2.20111014110412.01b7bed0@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014101957.01bb6ff8@imap.crc.ca> <" <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612E03A"@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE71596A37A@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CA964C53.10BD2%basavaraj.patil@nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE71596A39B@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612DAEC@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE716401932@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E47612E03A@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014101957.01bb6ff8@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014110412.01b7bed0@imap.crc.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20111014154259.01babe28@imap.crc.ca> <7BAC95F5A7E67643AAFB2C31BEE662D0141EAD9593@SC-VEXCH2.marvell.com> <5963DDF1F751474D8DEEFDCDBEE43AE716401C2A@dfweml503-mbx.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
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It may not be processing efficient for a server to combine the results of m=
ultiple queries.  Queries should be considered atomic and the answers shoul=
d be associated with a particular query. =20
Looking up channels for a simple region is a much different processing than=
 combining multiple results that may have other constraints (like different=
 validity times).
Multiple queries could also be for different spectral masks or operating mo=
des.  Sometimes they could be combined and sometimes not.

Now ... I'm not a fan of overly complex geo shapes ... but what you're aski=
ng for sounds more like a request for polygon or line based regions (e.g. N=
Y to Boston).

Paul


Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 1:50 PM
> To: Paul Lambert; Gerald Chouinard; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com;
> Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; scott.probasco@nokia.com
> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
>=20
> I think all that is being suggested is the ability to "batch" several
> simple requests into one message, such as when the master knows the
> locations
> of several other nodes (they could be slaves or other masters) and the
> database then independently processes each query.  It is only for
> efficiency
> that the responses could be processed together to remove redundancy.
> Think
> of it as a compression algorithm that runs on the list of XML responses
> being
> returned.
>=20
> -Pete
>=20
> Paul Lambert wrote:
> > Masters in multiple locations might not all operate on the same
> > channel.  There is no need for them to all be in the same channel.
> > They may all be connected in a mesh or other type of typology.
> >
> > I feel it would be better to have simple set of queries/operations
> > that can be combined by clients into more complex operations than
> > attempt to accommodate all possible complex processing that we can
> > envision in a database.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Gerald Chouinard [mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.ca]
> >> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 12:52 PM
> >> To: Paul Lambert; Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com;
> >> Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com; scott.probasco@nokia.com
> >> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> >> Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>
> >> Paul,
> >>
> >> Obviously, the 'union', as you call it, assumes that all the devices
> >> included form a network and need to operate on the same channel. If
> >> a device wants to operate on a different channel, it no longer
> >> belongs to the same wireless network and needs to query the database
> >> for itself, either directly or through another master device as
> >> 15.711(3)(e) of the MO&O allows.  In such case, the process of
> >> intersection of the lists of available channels would not apply.
> >>
> >> Gerald
> >>
> >>
> >> At 10:45 14-10-11 -0700, Paul Lambert wrote:
> >>> I think we may be over designing.  The union is interesting - but
> it
> >>> limits a device from using all available channels in any particular
> >>> location.
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
> >>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gerald Chouinard Sent:
> >>>> Friday, October 14, 2011 8:09 AM To: Peter McCann;
> >>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com;
> >>>> scott.probasco@nokia.com Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re: [paws]
> >>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>>>
> >>>> Pete,
> >>>>
> >>>> Agreed.  A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS
> >>>> protocol and that is to query only only on a 'differential' basis,
> >>>> i.e., the database would only send what has changed since the last
> >>>> query. This could also be applied to the query message from the
> base
> >>>> station, i.e., sending only the information that would have
> changed
> >>>> since the last query (e.g., new terminal, changed geoposition,
> etc.).
> >>>>
> >>>> Gerald
> >>>>
> >>>> At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> >>>>> Hi, Gerald,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think doing the intersection at the master device might be
> >>>>> acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supported.
> >>>>> However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being sent back
> >>>>> from the WSDB if there are many channels free in all given
> >>>>> locations.  Perhaps some sort of compression could be defined so
> >>>>> that the common channels are sent only once? That would be
> roughly
> >>>>> equivalent to doing an intersection but you would also send the
> >>>>> additional information about the channels that were free only in
> >>>>> specific locations.  This would allow the master device to do the
> >>>>> kind of computations you outline below.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -Pete
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gerald Chouinard wrote:
> >>>>>> Peter,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of intersection is
> >>>>>> done
> >> at
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> base station because the base station should be able to
> > decide
> >>>> whether
> >>>>>> to accept association with a new user terminal or not, depending
> on
> >>>>>> the extent this new terminal limits the number of available
> >>>>>> channels. This would not be possible if this is done at the
> >>>>>> database.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The base station (or the master in more general terms) should
> >>>>>> maintain a local table of available channel sets (or maximum
> allowed
> >> EIRP
> >>>> per
> >>>>>> channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously
> >>>>>> optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new
> terminal
> >>>>>> that asks to be associated that may reduce the number of
> available
> >>>>>> channels to only a few but, by disassociating another
> > terminal
> >> in a
> >>>>>> different location, the local network would regain even more
> >>>>>> available channels, as a result of the intersection process.
> The
> >>>>>> base station could then decide to stop its association with this
> >>>>>> second terminal and associate the first terminal.  This
> >>>>>> intelligence should not be relegated to the database but should
> be
> >>>>>> kept local at the
> > base
> >>>> station.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Whether the base station queries the database for each of its
> >>>>>> associated terminals one at a time or in 'batch' mode for all
> its
> >>>>>> terminals, the complete information should be obtained from the
> >>>>>> database so that the process of 'intersection' can take place
> >> at
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> base station.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gerald
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:
> >>>>>>> D.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the
> >>>>>>> union
> >> set
> >>>> of all
> >>>>>>> channels available at the multiple locations.  I want to
> > make
> >> sure
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels at
> >> each
> >>>> of the
> >>>>>>> listed locations.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Pete
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Pete,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement: D.6: The Data Model MUST
> >>>>>>>> support specifying channel availability information for
> multiple
> >>>>>>>> locations. D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel
> >>>>>>>> availability information for an area around a specified
> location.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -Gabor
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCann
> >>>>>>>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, October
> > 13,
> >> 2011
> >>>>>>>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil
> >>>>>>>> Basavaraj (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;
> Probasco
> >>>>>>>> Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas) Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws]
> >>>>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi, Gabor,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I think the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of
> >>>>>>>> what you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of
> the
> >>>>>>>> subject and accuracy of location determination.  Here,
> "location"
> >>>>>>>> can be a single point or a set of points.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -Pete
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the
> >> requirements
> >>>> may be
> >>>>>>>>> different, please feel free to propose your protocol
> >> requirement
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> the list. -Gabor
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: paws-bounces@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>>> [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Peter McCann
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM To: Patil
> Basavaraj
> >>>>>>>>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott
> >>>>>>>>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas) Cc: paws@ietf.org Subject: Re: [paws]
> >>>>>>>>> Possible new use case: simulcasting
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi, Raj,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a small
> >>>>>>>>> change along the lines that Scott suggested.  Note there is
> this
> >> text
> >>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> step 8:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    8.  The slave or user device scans the TV bands to
> >>>>>>>>> locate
> >> a
> >>>>>> WRAN
> >>>>>>>>>        transmission, and associates with the master/BS. The
> >>>>>>>>>        slave/user device provides its geolocation to the
> > BS
> >>>> which, in
> >>>>>>>>>        turn, queries the database for a list of channels
> >>>>>>>>>        available at the slaves' geolocation.
> >>>>>>>>> What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that
> >>>>>>>>> each of the devices could have independent Internet access
> >> and
> >>>> be
> >>>>>>>>> capable of querying the database itself.  There could be one
> BS
> >>>>>>>>> that handles all the queries or the individual BSs could
> query
> >>>>>>>>> themselves (each for their own location) and they could
> compare
> >>>>>>>>> notes to find a common free channel.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may
> >>>>>>>>> want
> >> to
> >>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple location
> elements
> >>>>>>>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cost of multiple
> >>>>>>>>> queries across the Internet.  The WSDB, after doing the
> polygon
> >>>>>>>>> intersection test at each location, could additionally do a
> set
> >> intersection
> >>>> test
> >>>>>>>>> on the remaining free channels and return the results.
> >> That's
> >>>> one
> >>>>>>>>> concrete way that this use case may impact the protocol
> >>>>>>>>> specification.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -Pete
> >>>>>>>>>


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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:13:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: "M.K.Sajeev sajeev" <mksaji@yahoo.com>
To: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>, Gerald Chouinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>, "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
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Hi,=0A=0AI agree with this comment. Compression/decompression, etc. can mak=
e the whole transaction slow, and complex too. Net bandwidth now should be =
able to accommodate data without compression (which is going to improve too=
 in coming days). Differential response and catching looks like good option=
..=0A=A0=0ABest Regards,=0ASajeev Manikkoth=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________=
__________________=0AFrom: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>=0ATo: Gerald Cho=
uinard <gerald.chouinard@crc.ca>; Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>; "=
Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>; "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com"=
 <Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com>; "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@no=
kia.com>=0ACc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>=0ASent: Friday, 14 October 2=
011, 23:15=0ASubject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting=0A=0AI=
 think we may be over designing.=A0 The union is interesting - but it limit=
s a device from using all available channels in any particular location.=0A=
=0APaul=0A=0A=0APaul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141=
=0A=0A=0A> -----Original Message-----=0A> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mail=
to:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=0A> Gerald Chouinard=0A> Sent: Frida=
y, October 14, 2011 8:09 AM=0A> To: Peter McCann; Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Ba=
savaraj.Patil@nokia.com;=0A> scott.probasco@nokia.com=0A> Cc: paws@ietf.org=
=0A> Subject: Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting=0A> =0A> Pete,=
=0A> =0A> Agreed.=A0 A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the P=
AWS=0A> protocol=0A> and that is to query only only on a 'differential' bas=
is, i.e., the=0A> database would only send what has changed since the last =
query. This=0A> could=0A> also be applied to the query message from the bas=
e station, i.e.,=0A> sending=0A> only the information that would have chang=
ed since the last query=0A> (e.g.,=0A> new terminal, changed geoposition, e=
tc.).=0A> =0A> Gerald=0A> =0A> At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:=
=0A> >Hi, Gerald,=0A> >=0A> >I think doing the intersection at the master d=
evice might be=0A> >acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is sup=
ported.=0A> >However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being=0A> >s=
ent back from the WSDB if there are many channels free in=0A> >all given lo=
cations.=A0 Perhaps some sort of compression could=0A> >be defined so that =
the common channels are sent only once?=0A> >That would be roughly equivale=
nt to doing an intersection=0A> >but you would also send the additional inf=
ormation about the=0A> >channels that were free only in specific locations.=
=A0 This=0A> >would allow the master device to do the kind of computations=
=0A> >you outline below.=0A> >=0A> >-Pete=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >Gerald Chouinard=
 wrote:=0A> > > Peter,=0A> > >=0A> > > In the 802.22 WRAN model, the proces=
s of intersection is done at=0A> the=0A> > > base station because the base =
station should be able to decide=0A> whether=0A> > > to accept association =
with a new user terminal or not, depending on=0A> > > the extent this new t=
erminal limits the number of available=0A> channels.=0A> > > This would not=
 be possible if this is done at the database.=0A> > >=0A> > > The base stat=
ion (or the master in more general terms) should=0A> maintain=0A> > > a loc=
al table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed EIRP=0A> per=0A> > >=
 channel) to have all the information necessary to continuously=0A> > > opt=
imize its use of the RF spectrum. One can imagine a new terminal=0A> > > th=
at asks to be associated that may reduce the number of available=0A> > > ch=
annels to only a few but, by disassociating another terminal in a=0A> > > d=
ifferent location, the local network would regain even more=0A> available=
=0A> > > channels, as a result of the intersection process.=A0 The base=0A>=
 station=0A> > > could then decide to stop its association with this second=
 terminal=0A> > > and associate the first terminal.=A0 This intelligence sh=
ould not be=0A> > > relegated to the database but should be kept local at t=
he base=0A> station.=0A> > >=0A> > > Whether the base station queries the d=
atabase for each of its=0A> > > associated terminals one at a time or in 'b=
atch' mode for all its=0A> > > terminals, the complete information should b=
e obtained from the=0A> > > database so that the process of 'intersection' =
can take place at=0A> the=0A> > > base station.=0A> > >=0A> > > Gerald=0A> =
> >=0A> > >=0A> > > At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:=0A> > >> D=
.6 comes close, but also seems to allow returning the union set=0A> of all=
=0A> > >> channels available at the multiple locations.=A0 I want to make s=
ure=0A> the=0A> > >> WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channe=
ls at each=0A> of the=0A> > >> listed locations.=0A> > >>=0A> > >> -Pete=0A=
> > >>=0A> > >> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:=0A> > >>> Pete,=0A> > >>>=0A> =
> >>> Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:=0A> > >>> D.6: The Data Model M=
UST support specifying channel availability=0A> > >>> information for multi=
ple locations.=0A> > >>> D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channe=
l availability=0A> > >>> information for an area around a specified locatio=
n.=0A> > >>>=0A> > >>> -Gabor=0A> > >>>=0A> > >>> -----Original Message----=
- From: ext Peter McCann=0A> > >>> [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com] Sent: T=
hursday, October 13, 2011=0A> > >>> 2:24 PM To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/Sili=
conValley); Patil=0A> Basavaraj=0A> > >>> (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); gerald.choui=
nard@crc.ca; Probasco Scott=0A> > >>> (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)=0A> > >>> Cc: paws=
@ietf.org Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case:=0A> > >>> simulcasting=
=0A> > >>>=0A> > >>> Hi, Gabor,=0A> > >>>=0A> > >>> I think the requirement=
 could be expressed as a refinement of=0A> what=0A> > >>> you mean by "loca=
tion" in requirement D.3:=0A> > >>>=0A> > >>> D.3: The Data Model MUST supp=
ort specifying the location of the=0A> > >>> subject and accuracy of locati=
on determination.=A0 Here, "location"=0A> > >>> can be a single point or a =
set of points.=0A> > >>>=0A> > >>> -Pete=0A> > >>>=0A> > >>> Gabor.Bajko@no=
kia.com wrote:=0A> > >>>> Pete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the=
 requirements=0A> may be=0A> > >>>> different, please feel free to propose =
your protocol requirement=0A> to=0A> > >>>> the list. -Gabor=0A> > >>>>=0A>=
 > >>>> -----Original Message-----=0A> > >>>> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [=
mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On=0A> > >>>> Behalf Of ext Peter McCann=0A> =
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM=0A> > >>>> To: Patil Ba=
savaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); gerald.chouinard@crc.ca;=0A> > >>>> Probasco Sc=
ott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)=0A> > >>>> Cc: paws@ietf.org=0A> > >>>> Subject: Re:=
 [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting=0A> > >>>>=0A> > >>>> Hi, Raj,=
=0A> > >>>>=0A> > >>>> I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 with a=
 small=0A> change=0A> > >>>> along the lines that Scott suggested.=A0 Note =
there is this text=0A> in=0A> > >>>> step 8:=0A> > >>>>=0A> > >>>>=A0 =A0 8=
.=A0 The slave or user device scans the TV bands to locate a=0A> > > WRAN=
=0A> > >>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 transmission, and associates with the master/BS.=
=A0 The=0A> > >>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 slave/user device provides its geolocatio=
n to the BS=0A> which, in=0A> > >>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 turn, queries the datab=
ase for a list of channels=0A> available at=0A> > >>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 the s=
laves' geolocation.=0A> > >>>> What I am suggesting is no different except =
for the fact that=0A> > >>>> each of the devices could have independent Int=
ernet access and=0A> be=0A> > >>>> capable of querying the database itself.=
=A0 There could be one BS=0A> > >>>> that handles all the queries or the in=
dividual BSs could query=0A> > >>>> themselves (each for their own location=
) and they could compare=0A> > >>>> notes to find a common free channel.=0A=
> > >>>>=0A> > >>>> As for the protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may=
 want to=0A> have=0A> > >>>> a requirement that the protocol carry multiple=
 location elements=0A> > >>>> (instead of just one) so that we save the cos=
t of multiple=0A> queries=0A> > >>>> across the Internet.=A0 The WSDB, afte=
r doing the polygon=0A> intersection=0A> > >>>> test at each location, coul=
d additionally do a set intersection=0A> test=0A> > >>>> on the remaining f=
ree channels and return the results.=A0 That's=0A> one=0A> > >>>> concrete =
way that this use case may impact the protocol=0A> specification.=0A> > >>>=
>=0A> > >>>> -Pete=0A> > >>>>=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> __________________________=
_____________________=0A> paws mailing list=0A> paws@ietf.org=0A> https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws=0A_______________________________________=
________=0Apaws mailing list=0Apaws@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/paws
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Hi,</span>=
</div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>I agree with this comment. Com=
pression/decompression, etc. can make the whole transaction slow, and compl=
ex too. Net bandwidth now should be able to accommodate data without compre=
ssion (which is going to improve too in coming days). Differential response=
 and catching looks like good option..</span></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><f=
ont class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#c00000"><i>Best Regards,</i></font=
></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(192, 0, 0)=
; "><i>Sajeev Manikkoth</i></span><br></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" color=3D"#c00000"><i><br></i></font><br><br></div><div style=3D"font=
-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "><d=
iv style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', ti=
mes, serif;
 "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-we=
ight:bold;">From:</span></b> Paul Lambert &lt;paul@marvell.com&gt;<br><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Gerald Chouinard &lt;gerald=
.chouinard@crc.ca&gt;; Peter McCann &lt;Peter.McCann@huawei.com&gt;; "Gabor=
.Bajko@nokia.com" &lt;Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com&gt;; "Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com=
" &lt;Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com&gt;; "scott.probasco@nokia.com" &lt;scott.p=
robasco@nokia.com&gt;<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></=
b> "paws@ietf.org" &lt;paws@ietf.org&gt;<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: =
bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, 14 October 2011, 23:15<br><b><span style=3D=
"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [paws] Possible new use case: =
simulcasting<br></font><br>I think we may be over designing.&nbsp; The unio=
n is interesting - but it limits a device from using all available channels=
 in any particular location.<br><br>Paul<br><br><br>Paul A. Lambert | Marve=
ll
 Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141<br><br><br>&gt; -----Original Message-----=
<br>&gt; From: <a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:p=
aws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a ymailto=3D"mailt=
o:paws-bounces@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>&gt; Gerald Chouinard<br>&gt; Sent: Friday, =
October 14, 2011 8:09 AM<br>&gt; To: Peter McCann; <a ymailto=3D"mailto:Gab=
or.Bajko@nokia.com" href=3D"mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com">Gabor.Bajko@nokia=
.com</a>; <a ymailto=3D"mailto:Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com" href=3D"mailto:Ba=
savaraj.Patil@nokia.com">Basavaraj.Patil@nokia.com</a>;<br>&gt; <a ymailto=
=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com" href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.co=
m">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a><br>&gt; Cc: <a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.=
org" href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Subject: Re: [=
paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Pete,<br>&gt; <b=
r>&gt;
 Agreed.&nbsp; A simple compression scheme could be proposed in the PAWS<br=
>&gt; protocol<br>&gt; and that is to query only only on a 'differential' b=
asis, i.e., the<br>&gt; database would only send what has changed since the=
 last query. This<br>&gt; could<br>&gt; also be applied to the query messag=
e from the base station, i.e.,<br>&gt; sending<br>&gt; only the information=
 that would have changed since the last query<br>&gt; (e.g.,<br>&gt; new te=
rminal, changed geoposition, etc.).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Gerald<br>&gt; <br>&gt=
; At 14:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter McCann wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;Hi, Gerald,<br>&=
gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;I think doing the intersection at the master device mi=
ght be<br>&gt; &gt;acceptable, as long as the "batch" location mode is supp=
orted.<br>&gt; &gt;However, it might lead to a lot of redundant data being<=
br>&gt; &gt;sent back from the WSDB if there are many channels free in<br>&=
gt; &gt;all given locations.&nbsp; Perhaps some sort of compression
 could<br>&gt; &gt;be defined so that the common channels are sent only onc=
e?<br>&gt; &gt;That would be roughly equivalent to doing an intersection<br=
>&gt; &gt;but you would also send the additional information about the<br>&=
gt; &gt;channels that were free only in specific locations.&nbsp; This<br>&=
gt; &gt;would allow the master device to do the kind of computations<br>&gt=
; &gt;you outline below.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;-Pete<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt=
; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;Gerald Chouinard wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Peter,<br>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; In the 802.22 WRAN model, the process of inter=
section is done at<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; base station because the b=
ase station should be able to decide<br>&gt; whether<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; to a=
ccept association with a new user terminal or not, depending on<br>&gt; &gt=
; &gt; the extent this new terminal limits the number of available<br>&gt; =
channels.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; This would not be possible if this is
 done at the database.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; The base station=
 (or the master in more general terms) should<br>&gt; maintain<br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; a local table of available channel sets (or maximum allowed EIRP<br>&=
gt; per<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; channel) to have all the information necessary to=
 continuously<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; optimize its use of the RF spectrum. One ca=
n imagine a new terminal<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; that asks to be associated that =
may reduce the number of available<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; channels to only a few=
 but, by disassociating another terminal in a<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; different l=
ocation, the local network would regain even more<br>&gt; available<br>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; channels, as a result of the intersection process.&nbsp; The bas=
e<br>&gt; station<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; could then decide to stop its associati=
on with this second terminal<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; and associate the first term=
inal.&nbsp; This intelligence should not be<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
 relegated to the database but should be kept local at the base<br>&gt; sta=
tion.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Whether the base station queries =
the database for each of its<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; associated terminals one at =
a time or in 'batch' mode for all its<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; terminals, the comp=
lete information should be obtained from the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; database so =
that the process of 'intersection' can take place at<br>&gt; the<br>&gt; &g=
t; &gt; base station.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Gerald<br>&gt; &g=
t; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; At 11:50 14-10-11 +0000, Peter =
McCann wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; D.6 comes close, but also seems to allo=
w returning the union set<br>&gt; of all<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; channels ava=
ilable at the multiple locations.&nbsp; I want to make sure<br>&gt; the<br>=
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; WSDB can do a set intersection of the available channels=
 at each<br>&gt; of the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; listed
 locations.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; -Pete<br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a ymailto=3D"mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" =
href=3D"mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com">Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>&=
gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Pete,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;=
&gt; Would D.6/D.7 cover your requirement:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; D.6: T=
he Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability<br>&gt; &gt; &gt=
;&gt;&gt; information for multiple locations.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; D.7=
: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability<br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt; information for an area around a specified location.<br>&gt; &=
gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; -Gabor<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;=
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message----- From: ext Peter McCan=
n<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; [mailto:<a ymailto=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawe=
i.com" href=3D"mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com">Peter.McCann@huawei.com</a>]
 Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 2:24 PM To: Baj=
ko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); Patil<br>&gt; Basavaraj<br>&gt; &gt; &g=
t;&gt;&gt; (Nokia- CIC/Dallas); <a ymailto=3D"mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.c=
a" href=3D"mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.ca">gerald.chouinard@crc.ca</a>; Pro=
basco Scott<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&=
gt;&gt; Cc: <a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.or=
g">paws@ietf.org</a> Subject: RE: [paws] Possible new use case:<br>&gt; &gt=
; &gt;&gt;&gt; simulcasting<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;=
&gt; Hi, Gabor,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I think=
 the requirement could be expressed as a refinement of<br>&gt; what<br>&gt;=
 &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; you mean by "location" in requirement D.3:<br>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; D.3: The Data Model MUST support spe=
cifying the location of the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; subject and accuracy
 of location determination.&nbsp; Here, "location"<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt=
; can be a single point or a set of points.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&g=
t; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; -Pete<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&=
gt; <a ymailto=3D"mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" href=3D"mailto:Gabor.Bajko@=
nokia.com">Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; P=
ete, If your use case is covered by 4.3, but the requirements<br>&gt; may b=
e<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; different, please feel free to propose your=
 protocol requirement<br>&gt; to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the list. -G=
abor<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Origi=
nal Message-----<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: <a ymailto=3D"mailto:p=
aws-bounces@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a> [mailto:<a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org" href=3D"mail=
to:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<br>&gt; &gt;
 &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Behalf Of ext Peter McCann<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:30 AM<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
To: Patil Basavaraj (Nokia-CIC/Dallas); <a ymailto=3D"mailto:gerald.chouina=
rd@crc.ca" href=3D"mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.ca">gerald.chouinard@crc.ca<=
/a>;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Probasco Scott (Nokia-CIC/Dallas)<br>&gt=
; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: <a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" href=3D"mai=
lto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject:=
 Re: [paws] Possible new use case: simulcasting<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Raj,<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>=
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think my use case is covered by Section 4.3 wi=
th a small<br>&gt; change<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; along the lines tha=
t Scott suggested.&nbsp; Note there is this text<br>&gt; in<br>&gt; &gt; &g=
t;&gt;&gt;&gt; step 8:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;
 &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; 8.&nbsp; The slave or user device scans the =
TV bands to locate a<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; WRAN<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; transmission, and associates with the master/BS.&=
nbsp; The<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; slave/us=
er device provides its geolocation to the BS<br>&gt; which, in<br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; turn, queries the database for=
 a list of channels<br>&gt; available at<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the slaves' geolocation.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&g=
t; What I am suggesting is no different except for the fact that<br>&gt; &g=
t; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; each of the devices could have independent Internet acc=
ess and<br>&gt; be<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; capable of querying the da=
tabase itself.&nbsp; There could be one BS<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th=
at handles all the queries or the individual BSs could query<br>&gt;
 &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; themselves (each for their own location) and they co=
uld compare<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; notes to find a common free chann=
el.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for the =
protocol between the BS and the WSDB, we may want to<br>&gt; have<br>&gt; &=
gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a requirement that the protocol carry multiple locatio=
n elements<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (instead of just one) so that we s=
ave the cost of multiple<br>&gt; queries<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; acro=
ss the Internet.&nbsp; The WSDB, after doing the polygon<br>&gt; intersecti=
on<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; test at each location, could additionally =
do a set intersection<br>&gt; test<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on the rem=
aining free channels and return the results.&nbsp; That's<br>&gt; one<br>&g=
t; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; concrete way that this use case may impact the pro=
tocol<br>&gt; specification.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;
 &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Pete<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=
 <br>&gt; <br>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt; =
paws mailing list<br>&gt; <a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" href=3D"mailt=
o:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/paws</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>paws mai=
ling list<br><a ymailto=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg">paws@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p=
aws" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br><b=
r><br></div></div></div></body></html>
---2114655128-659143803-1318648413=:12112--

From andy.sago@bt.com  Mon Oct 17 01:49:38 2011
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To: <paws@ietf.org>, <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Subject: [paws]  New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term 'device ID' which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as 'model ID' and 'FCC ID'. This Internet D=
raft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Ca=
rlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector=
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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<div>Hi Scott, all</div>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-a=
nd-requirements-00.txt"><font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.ietf.org/id/d=
raft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt</u></font></a> propos=
es revision of the database discovery
use case, two new use cases for indoor networking and machine to machine co=
mmunications, and a set of requirements that drop out of all the use cases =
included so far in the working document. These especially address the UK Of=
com requirements as currently known.
Also, a definition is proposed for the term &#8216;device ID&#8217; which w=
e suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for cons=
istency in place of terms such as &#8216;model ID&#8217; and &#8216;FCC ID&=
#8217;. This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT),
Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comm=
ents made to the reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in=
 Taipei if it would be helpful in providing further explanation to the cont=
ent in the document.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)</di=
v>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
</font>
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From: <andy.sago@bt.com>
To: <dickroy@alum.mit.edu>, <paws@ietf.org>, <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:00:05 +0100
Thread-Topic: [paws]  New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Thanks very much for your comments which give food for thought. I've consid=
ered these in the context of the requirements for a protocol for TVWS datab=
ase systems, the subject of this reflector.

Taking your points one by one:


1)      Defining the master device location - yes the regulator wants to kn=
ow the location of the radiating antenna of the master device. For consumer=
 installed equipment, such as an access point for home networking, the loca=
tion of any  GPS receive antenna will be pretty close to (or potentially co=
uld share an antenna with) the TVWS antenna. Bearing in mind the granularit=
y of the protection contours provided for the TV transmissions and the use =
of 100m pixels in UK, this will be more than adequate. I don't know what sy=
stem would have a master device located miles from its transmitting antenna=
 (an example you gave), but we can expect that such a system would be profe=
ssionally installed, and the installer would configure the device location =
to be that of the antenna. Mostly this is of concern to the regulator and i=
s outside the scope of PAWS, as the protocol just sends the lat-long coordi=
nates to the database.

2)      Determining a master's location - yes I can envisage that professio=
nally installed rural broadband systems (for example) could have their loca=
tions entered by an installer, triangulated over other wireless technologie=
s or derived from other known location data or by other means. GSP is not m=
andated. In my view these are all covered by the process of a master device=
 "determining" its location. Where location is entered manually, the potent=
ial for deliberate or accidental entry of incorrect information needs to be=
 guarded against in system design (but is outside the scope of PAWS).

3)      No entity really "knows its location" - you are getting philosophic=
al now! Yes it's estimated, but see my answer to (1) for the accuracy requi=
red.

4)      Security - thanks for the pointers. I am highly confident that ther=
e are appropriate security solutions out there, which the PAWS protocol can=
 point to. We can address this when we get to the solution phase.

Andy

From: Richard Roy [mailto:dickroy@alum.mit.edu]
Sent: 18 October 2011 08:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org; scott.probasco@nokia.com
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

I read with great interest your IETF draft.  I had a few thoughts I thought=
 I'd share with you:

1)     How is the location of the master device defined?  Is it the locatio=
n of the GPS antenna, the box itself, or perhaps the location of the TVWS t=
ransmitting antenna (its phase center actually).  I claim behind door three=
 is the prize.  No regulator cares where the GPS antenna is located.  It's =
not transmitting anything ... yet.  No one cares where the master box is lo=
cated; in can be miles from the transmitting antenna.  It's the location of=
 the TVWS transmitting antenna that counts.
2)     Why does a master box have to be able to "determine" its location? (=
See 1)) It should be sufficient to just "know it" by any means not specifie=
d in any standard.
3)     No entity really "knows its location".  It estimates its location re=
lative to some previously agreed upon coordinate system (including the four=
th dimension of time a la GPS) and should also be estimating the covariance=
 matrix of the estimation error as do all GPS systems.  It is this covarian=
ce matrix (really the upper triangular part of the square root of the covar=
iance matrix if you want to get down to the details) that is the critical s=
tatistical information that needs to be transmitted along with the estimate=
d location.
4)     FYI ... the security system described in this use case is the same a=
s the one being developed by IEEE 1609.2/ETSI TCITS WG5/TC204 WG17 SWG7 and=
 standards have been and are being written.  You might want to contact thes=
e groups for more info.

I hope this is helpful.

Cheers,

RR



________________________________
From: andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com> [mailto:andy.sago@bt.com]<m=
ailto:[mailto:andy.sago@bt.com]>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 1:50 AM
To: paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>; scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:sc=
ott.probasco@nokia.com>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term 'device ID' which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as 'model ID' and 'FCC ID'. This Internet D=
raft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Ca=
rlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector=
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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nk=3Dblue><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks very much for your co=
mments which give food for thought. I&#8217;ve considered these in the cont=
ext of the requirements for a protocol for TVWS database systems, the subje=
ct of this reflector.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f";color:#1F497D'>Taking your points one by one:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text=
-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-li=
st:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Defining the master device location &#82=
11; yes the regulator wants to know the location of the radiating antenna o=
f the master device. For consumer installed equipment, such as an access po=
int for home networking, the location of any&nbsp; GPS receive antenna will=
 be pretty close to (or potentially could share an antenna with) the TVWS a=
ntenna. Bearing in mind the granularity of the protection contours provided=
 for the TV transmissions and the use of 100m pixels in UK, this will be mo=
re than adequate. I don&#8217;t know what system would have a master device=
 located miles from its transmitting antenna (an example you gave), but we =
can expect that such a system would be professionally installed, and the in=
staller would configure the device location to be that of the antenna. Most=
ly this is of concern to the regulator and is outside the scope of PAWS, as=
 the protocol just sends the lat-long coordinates to the database.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-l=
ist:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span styl=
e=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></=
span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>Determining a master&#8217;s location &#8211; yes I can envisag=
e that professionally installed rural broadband systems (for example) could=
 have their locations entered by an installer, triangulated over other wire=
less technologies or derived from other known location data or by other mea=
ns. GSP is not mandated. In my view these are all covered by the process of=
 a master device &#8220;determining&#8221; its location. Where location is =
entered manually, the potential for deliberate or accidental entry of incor=
rect information needs to be guarded against in system design (but is outsi=
de the scope of PAWS).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph sty=
le=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=
=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>No entity really &#8220;knows =
its location&#8221; &#8211; you are getting philosophical now! Yes it&#8217=
;s estimated, but see my answer to (1) for the accuracy required. <o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-l=
ist:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4)<span styl=
e=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></=
span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>Security &#8211; thanks for the pointers. I am highly confident=
 that there are appropriate security solutions out there, which the PAWS pr=
otocol can point to. We can address this when we get to the solution phase.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'margin-left:18.0pt'><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0=
pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b>=
<span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-ser=
if"'> Richard Roy [mailto:dickroy@alum.mit.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> 18 October=
 2011 08:39<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org; scott.probasco=
@nokia.com<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revi=
sion of DB discovery use case<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I read wi=
th great interest your IETF draft. &nbsp;I had a few thoughts I thought I&#=
8217;d share with you:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=
=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:n=
avy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:=
36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><s=
pan lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"=
;color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "T=
imes New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"=
;color:navy'>How is the location of the master device defined? &nbsp;Is it =
the location of the GPS antenna, the box itself, or perhaps the location of=
 the TVWS transmitting antenna (its phase center actually). &nbsp;I claim b=
ehind door three is the prize.&nbsp; No regulator cares where the GPS anten=
na is located. &nbsp;It&#8217;s not transmitting anything &#8230; yet.&nbsp=
; No one cares where the master box is located; in can be miles from the tr=
ansmitting antenna. &nbsp;It&#8217;s the location of the TVWS transmitting =
antenna that counts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !support=
Lists]><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sa=
ns-serif";color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font=
:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![=
endif]><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sa=
ns-serif";color:navy'>Why does a master box have to be able to &#8220;deter=
mine&#8221; its location? (See 1)) It should be sufficient to just &#8220;k=
now it&#8221; by any means not specified in any standard.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18=
.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><span sty=
le=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>No entity=
 really &#8220;knows its location&#8221;. &nbsp;It estimates its location r=
elative to some previously agreed upon coordinate system (including the fou=
rth dimension of time a la GPS) and should also be estimating the covarianc=
e matrix of the estimation error as do all GPS systems.&nbsp; It is this co=
variance matrix (really the upper triangular part of the square root of the=
 covariance matrix if you want to get down to the details) that is the crit=
ical statistical information that needs to be transmitted along with the es=
timated location.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin=
-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLis=
ts]><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif";color:navy'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4)<span style=3D'font:7.=
0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![end=
if]><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-=
serif";color:navy'>FYI &#8230; the security system described in this use ca=
se is the same as the one being developed by IEEE 1609.2/ETSI TCITS WG5/TC2=
04 WG17 SWG7 and standards have been and are being written.&nbsp; You might=
 want to contact these groups for more info.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aria=
l","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-se=
rif";color:navy'>I hope this is helpful.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";=
color:navy'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3D=
EN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy=
'><br>RR<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><div><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:ce=
nter'><span lang=3DEN-US><hr size=3D3 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></span>=
</div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:=
andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a> <a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:andy.sago@=
bt.com]">[mailto:andy.sago@bt.com]</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 17,=
 2011 1:50 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org<=
/a>; <a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</=
a><br><b>Subject:</b> [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB d=
iscovery use case</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f"'>Hi Scott, all<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-U=
S style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ie=
tf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt">http://ww=
w.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt</a> pr=
oposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use cases for i=
ndoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set of requir=
ements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the working do=
cument. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as currently kno=
wn. Also, a definition is proposed for the term &#8216;device ID&#8217; whi=
ch we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for =
consistency in place of terms such as &#8216;model ID&#8217; and &#8216;FCC=
 ID&#8217;. This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT),=
 Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome com=
ments made to the reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present i=
n Taipei if it would be helpful in providing further explanation to the con=
tent in the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Andy Sago (=
BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)<o:p></o:p></span></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'=
>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_619CDADDCCD2B44380834BE8BF6F714140492FFAF7EMV62UKRDdoma_--

From Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk  Wed Oct 19 03:44:13 2011
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From: Andrew Gowans <Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk>
To: "andy.sago@bt.com" <andy.sago@bt.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [paws]  New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:44:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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--_000_9983D74B649EED43B27BF353837B20C54EDF3237WOKINTRAEXC01in_
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Hi Scott, all,

Although I am not a co-signatory of this document, myself and colleagues fr=
om Ofcom have made comments to the authors of this submission during the dr=
afting process. As we in Ofcom are still in the process of confirming the d=
etails of our proposed requirements for the interaction between the WSD and=
 the Geo-location Databases we felt it was not right at this time for us to=
 be co-signatory on this document as some of our requirements may vary slig=
htly from those presented in the document after our final analysis is compl=
eted. I am hoping that myself or a colleague will be in a position to provi=
de a formal update of our progress on the proposed requirements to the IETF=
 PAWS group in the near future.

Best Regards

Andy Gowans

From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of and=
y.sago@bt.com
Sent: 17 October 2011 09:50
To: paws@ietf.org; scott.probasco@nokia.com
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term 'device ID' which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as 'model ID' and 'FCC ID'. This Internet D=
raft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Ca=
rlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector=
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





________________________________

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<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Hi Scott, all,</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Although I am not a co-=
signatory of this document, myself and colleagues from Ofcom have made comm=
ents to the authors of this submission during the drafting
 process. As we in Ofcom are still in the process of confirming the details=
 of our proposed requirements for the interaction between the WSD and the G=
eo-location Databases we felt it was not right at this time for us to be co=
-signatory on this document as some
 of our requirements may vary slightly from those presented in the document=
 after our final analysis is completed. I am hoping that myself or a collea=
gue will be in a position to provide a formal update of our progress on the=
 proposed requirements to the IETF
 PAWS group in the near future.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Best Regards</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Andy Gowans</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;; color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;"> paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>andy.sago@bt.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 October 2011 09:50<br>
<b>To:</b> paws@ietf.org; scott.probasco@nokia.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discove=
ry use case</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Scott, all</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-=
uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt">
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.t=
xt</a> proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of
 all the use cases included so far in the working document. These especiall=
y address the UK Ofcom requirements as currently known. Also, a definition =
is proposed for the term &#8216;device ID&#8217; which we suggest should be=
 used throughout the use cases and requirements
 for consistency in place of terms such as &#8216;model ID&#8217; and &#821=
6;FCC ID&#8217;. This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch =
(BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcom=
e comments made to the reflector on these proposals. We
 are willing to present in Taipei if it would be helpful in providing furth=
er explanation to the content in the document.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Regards</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;">Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Int=
erdigital)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"></span></p>
</div>
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alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"></span></p>
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From jstine@mitre.org  Fri Oct 21 10:51:53 2011
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From: "Stine, John A." <jstine@mitre.org>
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:51:49 -0400
Thread-Topic: Spectrum Consumption Modeling
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I have been monitoring the traffic on this list to determine if the work I =
have been doing in a research project called Model-Based Spectrum Managemen=
t (MBSM) would be useful.  The recent discussions of using spectrum masks a=
nd having means to specify locations in many different ways reveal that it =
just might.
In MBSM, I have tried to develop a minimal way to model spectrum consumptio=
n that can be used to capture the consumption of any type of spectrum use. =
 Modeling is complemented with a definition of how to compute whether two o=
r more models are compatible.  These models can be used to find reuse oppor=
tunities, to manage spectrum use real time, to manage DSA systems, and to g=
ive policy to DSA systems.  In the whitespace domain, models can be made of=
 existing TV channel uses that match the contour approach and then of new u=
ses that are added.  The collection of models can be used to find reuse opp=
ortunities.  Models can be used to convey to a device the spectrum it may u=
se, they can convey the differences in what spectrum may be used based on m=
obility, and they can convey how a device may be interfered with by peer sy=
stems.
An advantage of modeling for whitespace work is that the nuances of rules o=
f different spectrum management administrations for computing compatibility=
 can be captured without having to create different data modeling approache=
s.  Using this approach to describing spectrum consumption can make the wor=
k in paws much more general.  In the US, many federal agencies would be ver=
y willing to share spectrum if there were a way to do so dynamically.  This=
 type of modeling approach could make the work of paws applicable to much m=
ore spectrum than just TV whitespace.
As a minimal definition, our spectrum consumption modeling approach does no=
t attempt to identify the users of spectrum, to provide descriptions of the=
ir systems, to make any differentiation between a master and slave, or to p=
rovide data elements for any sort of messaging that might be used in a busi=
ness process.  It just provides a means to model spectrum consumption.  Our=
 effort to make it minimal in this way is to allow it to be used to communi=
cate spectrum availability among disparate spectrum management systems that=
 may be used for different spectrum management processes as well as to and =
among spectrum dependent devices.  As an example, it can provide a means fo=
r a government system to convey the availability of spectrum to a commercia=
l whitespace service.  It provides a means to convey policy from a spectrum=
 management system to a DSA system.  We provide an XML schema with the expe=
ctation that it can be used together with other schema to expand it as nece=
ssary for use in a particular business process.
I have written a manual on spectrum consumption modeling that can be downlo=
aded at the following URL:
http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/2011/11-2071
Our objective is to collect comments and then do one more rewrite of this m=
anual considering those comments.  We would then try to propose that the co=
ncepts of this modeling approach that are described in this manual be used =
as the foundation of an international standard that could be used and cited=
 by other spectrum management, whitespace, and DySPAN standards.
I invite you to look over the manual, provide comments, and even suggest wh=
ere you think it would be most appropriate to standardize it.  Currently, I=
 am thinking somewhere in the work of IEEE DySPAN (SC) or the Wireless Inno=
vation Forum.
Allowing the data model of spectrum consumption to be a broadly used standa=
rd as proposed would allow the work of paws to be much more broadly applica=
ble to whitespace management as this concept of dynamic access extends beyo=
nd TV whitespace.

John A. Stine
Chief Technology Advisor
Operations Research and Systems Analysis
The MITRE Corporation
email: jstine@mitre.org<mailto:jstine@mitre.org>,  Phone:703-983-6281


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I have been moni=
toring the traffic on this list to determine if the work I have been doing =
in a research project called Model-Based Spectrum Management (MBSM) would b=
e useful.&nbsp; The recent discussions of using spectrum masks and having m=
eans to specify locations in many different ways reveal that it just might.=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In MBSM, I have tried to develop a mini=
mal way to model spectrum consumption that can be used to capture the consu=
mption of any type of spectrum use.&nbsp; Modeling is complemented with a d=
efinition of how to compute whether two or more models are compatible.&nbsp=
; These models can be used to find reuse opportunities, to manage spectrum =
use real time, to manage DSA systems, and to give policy to DSA systems.&nb=
sp; In the whitespace domain, models can be made of existing TV channel use=
s that match the contour approach and then of new uses that are added.&nbsp=
; The collection of models can be used to find reuse opportunities.&nbsp; M=
odels can be used to convey to a device the spectrum it may use, they can c=
onvey the differences in what spectrum may be used based on mobility, and t=
hey can convey how a device may be interfered with by peer systems.<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>An advantage of modeling for whitespace work is=
 that the nuances of rules of different spectrum management administrations=
 for computing compatibility can be captured without having to create diffe=
rent data modeling approaches.&nbsp; Using this approach to describing spec=
trum consumption can make the work in paws much more general.&nbsp; In the =
US, many federal agencies would be very willing to share spectrum if there =
were a way to do so dynamically.&nbsp; This type of modeling approach could=
 make the work of paws applicable to much more spectrum than just TV whites=
pace.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As a minimal definition, our spect=
rum consumption modeling approach does not attempt to identify the users of=
 spectrum, to provide descriptions of their systems, to make any differenti=
ation between a master and slave, or to provide data elements for any sort =
of messaging that might be used in a business process.&nbsp; It just provid=
es a means to model spectrum consumption.&nbsp; Our effort to make it minim=
al in this way is to allow it to be used to communicate spectrum availabili=
ty among disparate spectrum management systems that may be used for differe=
nt spectrum management processes as well as to and among spectrum dependent=
 devices.&nbsp; As an example, it can provide a means for a government syst=
em to convey the availability of spectrum to a commercial whitespace servic=
e.&nbsp; It provides a means to convey policy from a spectrum management sy=
stem to a DSA system.&nbsp; We provide an XML schema with the expectation t=
hat it can be used together with other schema to expand it as necessary for=
 use in a particular business process.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I=
 have written a manual on spectrum consumption modeling that can be downloa=
ded at the following URL:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"htt=
p://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/2011/11-2071"><b>http://www.mitre.org/wo=
rk/tech_papers/2011/11-2071</b></a><b><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></=
o:p></span></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Our objective is to collect comment=
s and then do one more rewrite of this manual considering those comments.&n=
bsp; We would then try to propose that the concepts of this modeling approa=
ch that are described in this manual be used as the foundation of an intern=
ational standard that could be used and cited by other spectrum management,=
 whitespace, and DySPAN standards.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I inv=
ite you to look over the manual, provide comments, and even suggest where y=
ou think it would be most appropriate to standardize it.&nbsp; Currently, I=
 am thinking somewhere in the work of IEEE DySPAN (SC) or the Wireless Inno=
vation Forum.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Allowing the data model of=
 spectrum consumption to be a broadly used standard as proposed would allow=
 the work of paws to be much more broadly applicable to whitespace manageme=
nt as this concept of dynamic access extends beyond TV whitespace.<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'>John A. Sti=
ne<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>Chief Techn=
ology Advisor<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bot=
tom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal'><span style=3D'font-size:=
9.0pt'>Operations Research and Systems Analysis<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height=
:normal'><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>The MITRE Corporation<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.000=
1pt;line-height:normal'><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>email: <a href=3D"m=
ailto:jstine@mitre.org">jstine@mitre.org</a>,&nbsp; Phone:703-983-6281</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></h=
tml>=

--_000_69CC32C3AD4CA84BBABA634B3EE3E589056F11C0F4IMCMBX2MITREO_--

From jstine@mitre.org  Fri Oct 21 13:00:33 2011
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From: "Stine, John A." <jstine@mitre.org>
To: Eli Salomon <eli@2m.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:00:25 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] Spectrum Consumption Modeling
Thread-Index: AcyQK7Xoc8pBgIwaTUSzdLGFzY4K7QAACTgw
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References: <69CC32C3AD4CA84BBABA634B3EE3E589056F11C0F4@IMCMBX2.MITRE.ORG> <CAEq3zrJgNGjOUtuknOvFfxo8TQxaAsR0-dfOet=Qd_3iuJhMxQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Spectrum Consumption Modeling
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Sure, please try this link

http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/2011/11_2071/

John

From: Eli Salomon [mailto:eli@2m.com]
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 3:58 PM
To: Stine, John A.
Subject: Re: [paws] Spectrum Consumption Modeling

John,

Thank you for sharing.  Can you re-send the link?  It appears to be dead.

Regards,

--
Eli Salomon
2M Companies, Inc.
4441 Buena Vista St | Dallas, TX 75205
917.617.3766
www.2m.com<http://www.2m.com/>

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Stine, John A. <jstine@mitre.org<mailto:j=
stine@mitre.org>> wrote:
I have been monitoring the traffic on this list to determine if the work I =
have been doing in a research project called Model-Based Spectrum Managemen=
t (MBSM) would be useful.  The recent discussions of using spectrum masks a=
nd having means to specify locations in many different ways reveal that it =
just might.
In MBSM, I have tried to develop a minimal way to model spectrum consumptio=
n that can be used to capture the consumption of any type of spectrum use. =
 Modeling is complemented with a definition of how to compute whether two o=
r more models are compatible.  These models can be used to find reuse oppor=
tunities, to manage spectrum use real time, to manage DSA systems, and to g=
ive policy to DSA systems.  In the whitespace domain, models can be made of=
 existing TV channel uses that match the contour approach and then of new u=
ses that are added.  The collection of models can be used to find reuse opp=
ortunities.  Models can be used to convey to a device the spectrum it may u=
se, they can convey the differences in what spectrum may be used based on m=
obility, and they can convey how a device may be interfered with by peer sy=
stems.
An advantage of modeling for whitespace work is that the nuances of rules o=
f different spectrum management administrations for computing compatibility=
 can be captured without having to create different data modeling approache=
s.  Using this approach to describing spectrum consumption can make the wor=
k in paws much more general.  In the US, many federal agencies would be ver=
y willing to share spectrum if there were a way to do so dynamically.  This=
 type of modeling approach could make the work of paws applicable to much m=
ore spectrum than just TV whitespace.
As a minimal definition, our spectrum consumption modeling approach does no=
t attempt to identify the users of spectrum, to provide descriptions of the=
ir systems, to make any differentiation between a master and slave, or to p=
rovide data elements for any sort of messaging that might be used in a busi=
ness process.  It just provides a means to model spectrum consumption.  Our=
 effort to make it minimal in this way is to allow it to be used to communi=
cate spectrum availability among disparate spectrum management systems that=
 may be used for different spectrum management processes as well as to and =
among spectrum dependent devices.  As an example, it can provide a means fo=
r a government system to convey the availability of spectrum to a commercia=
l whitespace service.  It provides a means to convey policy from a spectrum=
 management system to a DSA system.  We provide an XML schema with the expe=
ctation that it can be used together with other schema to expand it as nece=
ssary for use in a particular business process.
I have written a manual on spectrum consumption modeling that can be downlo=
aded at the following URL:
http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/2011/11-2071
Our objective is to collect comments and then do one more rewrite of this m=
anual considering those comments.  We would then try to propose that the co=
ncepts of this modeling approach that are described in this manual be used =
as the foundation of an international standard that could be used and cited=
 by other spectrum management, whitespace, and DySPAN standards.
I invite you to look over the manual, provide comments, and even suggest wh=
ere you think it would be most appropriate to standardize it.  Currently, I=
 am thinking somewhere in the work of IEEE DySPAN (SC) or the Wireless Inno=
vation Forum.
Allowing the data model of spectrum consumption to be a broadly used standa=
rd as proposed would allow the work of paws to be much more broadly applica=
ble to whitespace management as this concept of dynamic access extends beyo=
nd TV whitespace.

John A. Stine
Chief Technology Advisor
Operations Research and Systems Analysis
The MITRE Corporation
email: jstine@mitre.org<mailto:jstine@mitre.org>,  Phone:703-983-6281<tel:7=
03-983-6281>


_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws



--
Eli Salomon
2M Companies, Inc.
4441 Buena Vista St | Dallas, TX 75205
917.617.3766
www.2m.com<http://www.2m.com/>


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	{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sure, ple=
ase try this link<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"http://www.mitre=
.org/work/tech_papers/2011/11_2071/">http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/=
2011/11_2071/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>John<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Eli Salomon [mailto:eli@2m.com] <br><b>Sent=
:</b> Friday, October 21, 2011 3:58 PM<br><b>To:</b> Stine, John A.<br><b>S=
ubject:</b> Re: [paws] Spectrum Consumption Modeling<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>John,<br><br>Thank you for sharing=
.&nbsp; Can you re-send the link?&nbsp; It appears to be dead.&nbsp; <br><b=
r>Regards,<br><br>-- <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helve=
tica","sans-serif";color:black'>Eli Salomon</span><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#929292'><br>2M Companies=
, Inc.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-=
serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#929292'>4441 Buena Vista St | Dallas, TX 752=
05</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-seri=
f";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetic=
a","sans-serif";color:#929292'>917.617.3766&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#9292=
92'><a href=3D"http://www.2m.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.2m.com</a></span><=
span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:b=
lack'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:.5in'>On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Stine, John A. &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jstine@mitre.org">jstine@mitre.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-marg=
in-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>I have been monitoring the traffic on =
this list to determine if the work I have been doing in a research project =
called Model-Based Spectrum Management (MBSM) would be useful.&nbsp; The re=
cent discussions of using spectrum masks and having means to specify locati=
ons in many different ways reveal that it just might.<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
argin-left:.5in'>In MBSM, I have tried to develop a minimal way to model sp=
ectrum consumption that can be used to capture the consumption of any type =
of spectrum use.&nbsp; Modeling is complemented with a definition of how to=
 compute whether two or more models are compatible.&nbsp; These models can =
be used to find reuse opportunities, to manage spectrum use real time, to m=
anage DSA systems, and to give policy to DSA systems.&nbsp; In the whitespa=
ce domain, models can be made of existing TV channel uses that match the co=
ntour approach and then of new uses that are added.&nbsp; The collection of=
 models can be used to find reuse opportunities.&nbsp; Models can be used t=
o convey to a device the spectrum it may use, they can convey the differenc=
es in what spectrum may be used based on mobility, and they can convey how =
a device may be interfered with by peer systems.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:.5in'>An advantage of modeling for whitespace work is that the nuance=
s of rules of different spectrum management administrations for computing c=
ompatibility can be captured without having to create different data modeli=
ng approaches.&nbsp; Using this approach to describing spectrum consumption=
 can make the work in paws much more general.&nbsp; In the US, many federal=
 agencies would be very willing to share spectrum if there were a way to do=
 so dynamically.&nbsp; This type of modeling approach could make the work o=
f paws applicable to much more spectrum than just TV whitespace.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>As a minimal definition, our spectrum consumpti=
on modeling approach does not attempt to identify the users of spectrum, to=
 provide descriptions of their systems, to make any differentiation between=
 a master and slave, or to provide data elements for any sort of messaging =
that might be used in a business process.&nbsp; It just provides a means to=
 model spectrum consumption.&nbsp; Our effort to make it minimal in this wa=
y is to allow it to be used to communicate spectrum availability among disp=
arate spectrum management systems that may be used for different spectrum m=
anagement processes as well as to and among spectrum dependent devices.&nbs=
p; As an example, it can provide a means for a government system to convey =
the availability of spectrum to a commercial whitespace service.&nbsp; It p=
rovides a means to convey policy from a spectrum management system to a DSA=
 system.&nbsp; We provide an XML schema with the expectation that it can be=
 used together with other schema to expand it as necessary for use in a par=
ticular business process.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>I have writ=
ten a manual on spectrum consumption modeling that can be downloaded at the=
 following URL:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><a href=3D"http://www=
.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/2011/11-2071" target=3D"_blank"><b>http://www.m=
itre.org/work/tech_papers/2011/11-2071</b></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:.5in'>Our objective is to collect comments and then do one more rewrite=
 of this manual considering those comments.&nbsp; We would then try to prop=
ose that the concepts of this modeling approach that are described in this =
manual be used as the foundation of an international standard that could be=
 used and cited by other spectrum management, whitespace, and DySPAN standa=
rds.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;ms=
o-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>I invite you to look over the ma=
nual, provide comments, and even suggest where you think it would be most a=
ppropriate to standardize it.&nbsp; Currently, I am thinking somewhere in t=
he work of IEEE DySPAN (SC) or the Wireless Innovation Forum.<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Allowing the data model of spectrum consumption to=
 be a broadly used standard as proposed would allow the work of paws to be =
much more broadly applicable to whitespace management as this concept of dy=
namic access extends beyond TV whitespace.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:=
.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt=
:auto;margin-left:.5in'>John A. Stine<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:9=
.0pt'>Chief Technology Advisor</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:9=
.0pt'>Operations Research and Systems Analysis</span><o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>The MITRE Corporation</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=
=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>email: <a href=3D"mailto:jstine@mitre.org" target=3D"_=
blank">jstine@mitre.org</a>,&nbsp; Phone:<a href=3D"tel:703-983-6281" targe=
t=3D"_blank">703-983-6281</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>____=
___________________________________________<br>paws mailing list<br><a href=
=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/paws</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in'><br><br clear=3Dall><br>-- <br><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Eli Salomon</span><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#929292'>=
<br>2M Companies, Inc.</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"H=
elvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#929292'>4441 Buena Vista St =
| Dallas, TX 75205</span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helve=
tica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#929292'>917.617.3766&nbsp; </span>=
<span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:=
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margi=
n-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-=
serif";color:#929292'><a href=3D"http://www.2m.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.=
2m.com</a></span><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","s=
ans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></ht=
ml>=

--_000_69CC32C3AD4CA84BBABA634B3EE3E589056F11C17CIMCMBX2MITREO_--

From Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com  Mon Oct 24 14:42:27 2011
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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
To: <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: slot requests for the Taipei meeting
Thread-Index: AcySlWJaOHtoMGzhSPeNxzQISKeofw==
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:42:05 +0000
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Subject: [paws] slot requests for the Taipei meeting
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Everyone,

The Taipei IETF meeting agenda has been published, see: https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/meeting/82/agenda.txt
PAWS got a 2.5 hour slot on Tuesday morning 9:00am to 11:30am.
If you'd like to present, please send slot requests to the chairs.

-gabor

From gerald.chouinard@crc.ca  Tue Oct 25 12:09:22 2011
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Cc: paws@ietf.org, STDS-802-11-TGAF@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [paws] [STDS-802-11-TGAF] About LCI format in .11af spec
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Gabor,

Wouldn't it be easier for the master WSD to simply forward the NMEA string 
that it would have obtained from the GPS device rather than having to 
re-format it?  NMEA 0183 is more friendly with any geolocation technology 
than DHCP.

Gerald


At 18:55 25-10-11 +0000, Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
>I know it is rather confusing that this binary encoding of location was 
>defined as part of a dhcp option. It was done the same way in RFC3825 as 
>well. But 802.11 never intended to use the dhcp option code itself, only 
>the location encoding format. The same assumption applies to RFC6225 as 
>well, ie use only the binary encoding part of the location. This binary 
>encoding can be transmitted using any protocol, being that 802.11 frame, a 
>dhcp option field, or sg else.
>
>The document does use uncertainty, that is actually the major improvement 
>over the previous format (defined in rfc3825). Confidence even though it 
>is mentioned, it is not elaborated. I think it is assumed to be 95%, which 
>is an industry wide accepted value.
>
>-Gabor
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Gerald Chouinard [mailto:gerald.chouinard@crc.ca]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 9:54 AM
>To: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley); STDS-802-11-TGAF@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGAF] About LCI format in .11af spec
>
>Gabor, all,
>
>It should be pointed out that the IEEE 802.22 Standard contains primitives 
>for the database interface, as presented during the Quebec City meeting, 
>that propose to use the NMEA 0183 strings to document the geolocation of 
>the WSDs. Such strings are more in line with the various existing 
>geo-positioning technologies such as GPS (e.g., most GPS professional and 
>consumer devices output their data using NMEA strings.
>
>Using a DHCP-based protocol to provide the WSD geolocation seems to result 
>in a catch-22, that is a DHCP message can only be transmitted to a device 
>that is associated to a network while the geolocation of a WSD needs to be 
>provided to the database before the device can be considered associated to 
>the network so that the database can confirm which channels can be used by 
>this device before it starts to operate. This apparent conundrum needs to 
>be resolved somehow.
>
>Finally, the enhanced DHCP protocol described in RFC6225 does not contain 
>parameters such as the 'uncertainty' and the 'confidence level'.  Although 
>the NMEA strings include some information that can be used to deduce this 
>information (e.g., number of satellites in view), the master WSD would 
>need to translate it into the required parameters which, in passing, may 
>be different from one regulatory domain to another.
>
>My 2-cents ...
>
>Gerald
>
>
>At 14:59 25-10-11 +0000, Gabor Bajko wrote:
>
> >Yes, I brought up this LCI topic for discussion both in TGv and TGmb, a
> >while ago. The conclusion was that even though LCI based on RFC3825 has
> >known deficiencies, if used within 802.11, we can live with it. And
> >since there was significant resistance to make the change, there was no
> >motion brought to the floor.
> >
> >
> >
> >What is different now is that the location of the STA encoded in the
> >802.11 L2, in some of the 11af use cases, will need to be converted by
> >an AP to XML before sent to the DB.  And there is no mathematical
> >formula I know of, which can be used to convert an RFC3825 LCI or the
> >11af defined extended location encoding into XML. The newly published
> >RFC6225 is backward compatible with LCI as used in 802.11y, field wise,
> >but the fields have different meaning and the encoding is different.
> >And there is an easy formula on how to convert it to XML.
> >
> >
> >
> >Therefore, I felt it is time LCI as defined in RFC3825 is not
> >propagated to new 802.11 amendments but rather the format defined in 
> RFC6225 is used.
> >
> >
> >
> >-Gabor
> >
> >
> >
> >From: *** 802.11 TGaf - TV White Spaces OperationTask Group ***
> >[mailto:STDS-802-11-TGAF@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Hamilton, Mark
> >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 1:52 PM
> >To: STDS-802-11-TGAF@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> >Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGAF] About LCI format in .11af spec
> >
> >
> >
> >Is the proposal being made here suggesting the TGaf needs a different
> >LCI format, or that the base text s current LCI format be modified per
> >the updated RFC?
> >
> >
> >
> >For those who didn t know, this has been discussed in TGmb (and TGv, I
> >believe) for a while.  Both groups decided to wait until the IETF had
> >settled on a way forward, and then to evaluate what we thought.  Along
> >the way, comments have been made that the new format will be (is?)
> >backward compatible with the RFC 3825 format.  I gather from Paul s
> >description that this can be the case, as RFC 6225 has specified
> >multiple formats to superset RFC 3825.  If the intent is to replace the
> >baseline 802.11 LCI format with a new format, those discussions should 
> be given consideration.
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >From: *** 802.11 TGaf - TV White Spaces OperationTask Group ***
> >[mailto:STDS-802-11-TGAF@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Paul Lambert
> >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 1:52 PM
> >To: STDS-802-11-TGAF@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> >Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGAF] About LCI format in .11af spec
> >
> >
> >
> >Three formats are defined in RFC 6225, one of which is identical to the
> >current format we ve used from RFC 3825.
> >
> >
> >
> >Uncertainty versus resolution look like just an improvement in naming.
> >The Res field also has been carved up to include Version.
> >
> >
> >
> >Which specific RFC 6225 format are you proposing (I d assume Code 144 yes) ?
> >
> >
> >
> >Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > > correct binary LCI format so that it can be converted to XML format
> > expected to be
> >
> > >used for device to GDB interface, e.g. by IETF PAWS protocol.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Paul A. Lambert | Marvell Semiconductor | +1-650-787-9141
> >
> >
> >
> >From: *** 802.11 TGaf - TV White Spaces OperationTask Group ***
> >[mailto:STDS-802-11-TGAF@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Padam Kafle
> >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:49 AM
> >To: STDS-802-11-TGAF@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> >Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGAF] About LCI format in .11af spec
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi All,
> >
> >
> >
> >I would like to bring to the attention of this group about the use of
> >location information in .11af. In my opinion, the format for device
> >location information in .11af specification needs to be fixed. We have
> >been referring to RFC 3825 for LCI format, which has already been
> >obsoleted by a new RFC 6225. One problem with this is the LCI format
> >used currently in .11af is not current, and not likely to be adopted
> >industry wise. The encoding has been revised by the new RFC 6225 (see
> ><http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6225>http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6225 ).
> >
> >
> >
> >I think TGaf should revise the current device location information and
> >device position information IEs to align with the RFC 6225 instead of
> >referring to RFC 3825. The main difference is use of uncertainty
> >instead of resolution for latitude, longitude and altitude, the length
> >of the fields are otherwise same. One important reason is that we need
> >to use correct binary LCI format so that it can be converted to XML
> >format expected to be used for device to GDB interface, e.g. by IETF 
> PAWS protocol.
> >
> >
> >
> >Please have a look to the RFC from the referred link. If there is time,
> >we can discuss this issue briefly in the TGaf telco tomorrow. I will be
> >uploading the proposed text (11-11-1402r0) before the call.
> >
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> >Padam Kafle
> >
> >Nokia
> >
> >
> >
> >From: *** 802.11 TGaf - TV White Spaces OperationTask Group ***
> >[mailto:STDS-802-11-TGAF@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Richard Kennedy
> >Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:31 PM
> >To:
> ><mailto:STDS-802-11-TGAF@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>STDS-802-11-TGAF@LISTSERV.IE
> >EE.ORG
> >Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGAF] FW: Tuesday's Teleconference
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Rich Kennedy
> >
> >Standards Manager
> >
> >Research In Motion Corporation
> >
> >mobile: +1 (972) 207-3554
> >
> >office: +1 (972) 910-3448
> >
> ><mailto:rikennedy@rim.com>rikennedy@rim.com
> >
> >
> >
> >IEEE 802.11 TGaf Chair
> >
> >IEEE 802.11 to 802.18 Liaison
> >
> >IEEE 802.11 Regulatory Standing Committee Chair
> >
> >Wi-Fi Alliance Spectrum & Regulatory Task Group Chair
> >
> >
> >
> >From: Richard Kennedy
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:26 AM
> >To: 'STDS-IEEE-802-11-TGAF@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG'
> >Subject: Tuesday's Teleconference
> >
> >
> >
> >All:
> >
> >
> >
> >I have just uploaded a teleconference plan and agenda for the call at:
> ><https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/11/11-11-1381-00-00af-october-18th-te 
> leconference-plan-and-agenda.ppt>https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/11/11-11-1381-00-00af-october-18th-teleconference-plan-and-agenda.ppt.
> >
> >
> >
> >I am in Taipei for the Wi-Fi Alliance meeting, so Peter will act as
> >Chair for this session.  Time is running out for comment resolutions if
> >we intend to finish in November.  Please get the resolutions done and
> >provide inputs to the remaining teleconferences.
> >
> >
> >
> >Teleconference details:
> >
> >Topic: 11af
> >Date: Every Tuesday, from Tuesday, October 4, 2011 to Tuesday, November
> >22, 2011
> >Time: 6:00 pm, Pacific Daylight Time (San Francisco, GMT-07:00) Meeting
> >Number: 207 473 454 Meeting Password: 11af
> >
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >To join the online meeting (Now from mobile devices!)
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >1. Go to
> ><https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=175158422&UID=1630286>7 
> 92&PW=NZTgyYmE4OThl&RT=MiM0>https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/j.
> >php?ED=175158422&UID=1630286792&PW=NZTgyYmE4OThl&RT=MiM0
> >
> >2. Enter your name and email address.
> >3. Enter the meeting password: 11af
> >4. Click "Join Now".
> >
> >To view in other time zones or languages, please click the link:
> ><https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=175158422&UID=1630286>7 
> 92&PW=NZTgyYmE4OThl&ORT=MiM0>https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/j
> >.php?ED=175158422&UID=1630286792&PW=NZTgyYmE4OThl&ORT=MiM0
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >ALERT:Toll-Free Dial Restrictions for (408) and (919) Area Codes
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San
> >Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area.
> >
> >Please dial the local access number for your area from the list below:
> >- San Jose/Milpitas (408) area: 525-6800
> >- RTP (919) area: 392-3330
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >To join the teleconference only
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at
> ><http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html>ht
> >tp://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html
> >
> >2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or
> >Access Code followed by the # sign.
> >
> >San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800 RTP: +1.919.392.3330
> >
> >US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903 United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117
> >
> >India: +91.80.4350.1111 Germany: +49.619.6773.9002
> >
> >Japan: +81.3.5763.9394 China: +86.10.8515.5666
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >For assistance
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >1. Go to
> ><https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/mc>https://ciscosales.webex.co
> >m/ciscosales/mc
> >
> >2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support".
> >
> >You can contact me at:
> ><mailto:pecclesi@cisco.com>pecclesi@cisco.com
> >1-408-527 0815
> >
> >To add this meeting to your calendar program (for example Microsoft
> >Outlook), click this link:
> ><https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=175158422&UID=1630286>7 
> 92&ICS=MI&LD=1&RD=2&ST=1&SHA2=jDwVsaHy/ACC2OzP5RIU8ktKab3T8gKl5fA6i3r0
> >CRY=&RT=MiM0>https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=175158422
> >&UID=1630286792&ICS=MI&LD=1&RD=2&ST=1&SHA2=jDwVsaHy/ACC2OzP5RIU8ktKab3T
> >8gKl5fA6i3r0CRY=&RT=MiM0
> >
> >
> >The playback of UCF (Universal Communications Format) rich media files
> >requires appropriate players. To view this type of rich media files in
> >the meeting, please check whether you have the players installed on
> >your computer by going to
> ><https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/systemdiagnosis.php>https://ci
> >scosales.webex.com/ciscosales/systemdiagnosis.php
> >
> >
> >Sign up for a free trial of WebEx
> ><http://www.webex.com/go/mcemfreetrial>http://www.webex.com/go/mcemfree
> >trial
> >
> >http://www.webex.com
> >
> >CCP:+14085256800x207473454#
> >
> >IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows
> >audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during
> >the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically
> >consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording,
> >discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the
> >recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such
> >recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
> >Rich Kennedy
> >
> >Standards Manager
> >
> >Research In Motion Corporation
> >
> >mobile: +1 (972) 207-3554
> >
> >office: +1 (972) 910-3448
> >
> ><mailto:rikennedy@rim.com>rikennedy@rim.com
> >
> >
> >
> >IEEE 802.11 TGaf Chair
> >
> >IEEE 802.11 to 802.18 Liaison
> >
> >IEEE 802.11 Regulatory Standing Committee Chair
> >
> >Wi-Fi Alliance Spectrum & Regulatory Task Group Chair
> >
> >




From scott.probasco@nokia.com  Tue Oct 25 13:38:44 2011
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From: <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
To: <andy.sago@bt.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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--_000_CACC7B4BBA4Dscottprobasconokiacom_
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Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case=
=85" which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and not=
e this to be an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2=85"

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 wh=
ich we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for=
 consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. Thi=
s Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT)=
 and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to t=
he reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it =
would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in the doc=
ument.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





--_000_CACC7B4BBA4Dscottprobasconokiacom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-ID: <64F60F09D1028C4491E59266D9470623@nokia.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>Hi Andy, Mike &amp; Juan Carlos,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simpl=
ify the text and introduces the &quot;listing&quot; method from the UK. The=
se changes make sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre=
-programmed address of a trusted database.
 I believe this is an important option and should remain in the I-D. A poss=
ible remedy is to remove &nbsp;&quot;In the simplest case=85&quot; which mi=
ght mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and note this to be =
an option.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which=
 describes updating the database with the selections made by the master dev=
ice. I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous=
 discussions on this mail list,
 and after review of our Charter, I believe this step to update the databas=
e with information is not within our current scope; I am planning to remove=
 similar steps from other use cases in the next update. The issue of scope =
is merely my personal opinion.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:</d=
iv>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[First paragraph]</div>
<div>&quot;In this use case, each &quot;machine&quot; includes a white spac=
e slave device and can be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each mach=
ine needs to have connectivity to the internet and or to other machines in =
the vicinity. Machine communication over a TVWS
 channel, whether to a master device or to another machine (slave device), =
is under the control of a master device. This deployment scenario is typica=
lly characterized by a master device with internet connectivity by some con=
nection that does not utilize TV
 white space. Figure 2=85&quot;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[Step 6]</div>
<div>6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locat=
e the master transmissions, and associate with the master device.&nbsp;Furt=
her signaling can take place outside &nbsp;scope of PAWS to establish direc=
t links among those slave devices that have
 associated with the master device.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[Step 7]</div>
<div>Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Ne=
tworking use case.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Scott</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:a=
ndy.sago@bt.com">
andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sag=
o@bt.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 &#4=
3;0100<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;, Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.f=
itch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[paws] New indoor and M2M =
use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><!-- converted from rtf --><style><!-- .EmailQuote { margin-left: 1pt;=
 padding-left: 4pt; border-left: #800000 2px solid; } --></style>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" size=3D"3">
<div>Hi Scott, all</div>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div>I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-a=
nd-requirements-00.txt">
<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-=
cases-and-requirements-00.txt</u></font></a> proposes revision of the datab=
ase discovery use case, two new use cases for indoor networking and machine=
 to machine communications, and a
 set of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in =
the working document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as=
 currently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=
=92 which we suggest should be used throughout
 the use cases and requirements for consistency in place of terms such as =
=91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. This Internet Draft is a joint submission =
from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital).=
 We would welcome comments made to the reflector
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)</di=
v>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;</font></div>
</font></div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CACC7B4BBA4Dscottprobasconokiacom_--

From scott.probasco@nokia.com  Tue Oct 25 13:42:02 2011
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From: <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
To: <Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk>, <andy.sago@bt.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws]  New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
Thread-Index: AQHMjlLCqLCdMsHVWUiUyIrbzY+HgpWNGxEA
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:41:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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--_000_CACC7BBFBA51scottprobasconokiacom_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Andy,

Thank you for commenting to the authors and participation in the developmen=
t of the PAWS specifications. Your input is appreciated and will help ensur=
e PAWS may be deployed on a global scale. I look forward to a formal update=
 from Ofcom in the near future.

Kind Regards,
Scott

From: ext Andrew Gowans <Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk<mailto:Andrew.Gowans@of=
com.org.uk>>
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:44:07 +0000
To: "andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:an=
dy.sago@bt.com>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mail=
to:paws@ietf.org>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.=
probasco@nokia.com>>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Scott, all,

Although I am not a co-signatory of this document, myself and colleagues fr=
om Ofcom have made comments to the authors of this submission during the dr=
afting process. As we in Ofcom are still in the process of confirming the d=
etails of our proposed requirements for the interaction between the WSD and=
 the Geo-location Databases we felt it was not right at this time for us to=
 be co-signatory on this document as some of our requirements may vary slig=
htly from those presented in the document after our final analysis is compl=
eted. I am hoping that myself or a colleague will be in a position to provi=
de a formal update of our progress on the proposed requirements to the IETF=
 PAWS group in the near future.

Best Regards

Andy Gowans

From: paws-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:paws-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>
Sent: 17 October 2011 09:50
To: paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>; scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:sc=
ott.probasco@nokia.com>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 wh=
ich we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for=
 consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. Thi=
s Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT)=
 and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to t=
he reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it =
would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in the doc=
ument.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





________________________________

***************************************************************************=
***************************************
For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk

This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for the use o=
f the addressee only.

If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of th=
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This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any attachments =
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--_000_CACC7BBFBA51scottprobasconokiacom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-ID: <B41774C7D3645A4F984279B158EED348@nokia.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>Hello Andy,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for commenting to the authors and participation in the devel=
opment of the PAWS specifications. Your input is appreciated and will help =
ensure PAWS may be deployed on a global scale. I look forward to a formal u=
pdate from Ofcom in the near future.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind Regards,</div>
<div>Scott</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>ext Andrew Gowans &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk">Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:44:07 &#4=
3;0000<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sa=
go@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.co=
m">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ie=
tf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
,
 Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.prob=
asco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>RE: [paws] New indoor and =
M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><style>
<!--
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<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Hi Scott, all,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Although I am not a co-signatory o=
f this document, myself and colleagues from Ofcom have made comments to the=
 authors of this submission during the
 drafting process. As we in Ofcom are still in the process of confirming th=
e details of our proposed requirements for the interaction between the WSD =
and the Geo-location Databases we felt it was not right at this time for us=
 to be co-signatory on this document
 as some of our requirements may vary slightly from those presented in the =
document after our final analysis is completed. I am hoping that myself or =
a colleague will be in a position to provide a formal update of our progres=
s on the proposed requirements to
 the IETF PAWS group in the near future.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Best Regards</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy Gowans</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; fo=
nt-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">
<a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=
=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a=
><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 October 2011 09:50<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"m=
ailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">
scott.probasco@nokia.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discove=
ry use case</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">H=
i Scott, all</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; "></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I=
-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-req=
uirements-00.txt">
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.t=
xt</a> proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of
 all the use cases included so far in the working document. These especiall=
y address the UK Ofcom requirements as currently known. Also, a definition =
is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 which we suggest should be used th=
roughout the use cases and requirements
 for consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92.=
 This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago =
(BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made =
to the reflector on these proposals. We
 are willing to present in Taipei if it would be helpful in providing furth=
er explanation to the content in the document.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&=
nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">R=
egards</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&=
nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">A=
ndy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; "></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; "></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; "></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; "></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"2"><br>
***************************************************************************=
***************************************<br>
For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk<br>
<br>
This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for the use o=
f the addressee only.<br>
<br>
If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of th=
e message and delete it from your system.<br>
<br>
This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any attachments =
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<br>
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--_000_CACC7BBFBA51scottprobasconokiacom_--

From apurva.mody@baesystems.com  Fri Oct 28 13:05:03 2011
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From: "Mody, Apurva (US SSA)" <apurva.mody@baesystems.com>
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:04:54 -0400
Thread-Topic: IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements
Thread-Index: AcyJLY8H0bjED5cjTgqFaAdMmKqbFwMd1rLQ
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Subject: [paws] IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements
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Dear Gabor and All the PAWS members,

Greetings.

The IEEE 802.22 Working Group has been discussing the requirements for the =
IETF PAWS and here is our feedback which can be found at the following URL.

https://mentor.ieee.org/802.22/dcn/11/22-11-0127-06-0000-ieee-802-22-inputs=
-to-ietf-paws.doc

The pdf version of the document has been attached to this e-mail, and for c=
onvenience, I am also putting this in a text format below:

Requirements

D. Data Model Requirements:

[AMENDED] D.1: The Data Model MUST support specifying the Following Paramet=
ersantenna height parameter of the subject
*       Antenna Parameters (Master WSD =3D> database)
*       Height Parameters
o       mandatory AGL in meters: Unsigned INT, 2 Bytes (0 - 65,535 cm)

Example of the Primitive
Field: Antenna Height
Type: Integer
Length: 1 Byte
Description: Antenna height above ground level in meters

[Note: portable is defined as 1.5 m and base stations in Canada can be at u=
p to 500 m HAAT which could be completely contributed by the antenna AGL (e=
.g., mounted on a broadcast tower). Two bytes are therefore necessary.]
[Note: our assumption is that the database will compute the HAAT in meters =
from the antenna AGL and ground elevation at the specified location (lat, l=
ong) obtained from a topographic database by the database server.]
*       Gain Parameters
o       Antenna directionality information in dB: relative to the main lobe=
 maximum gain for every 5 degree azimuth clockwise starting from the direct=
ion of the maximum antenna gain expressed in unit of 0.25 dB over the range=
 -63.75 dB (encoded 0x00) to 0 dB (0xFF):
Character String of 72 bytes
o       Antenna azimuth in degrees, clockwise from true North:  2 bytes INT

Example of the 802.22 Prmitive

Field: Antenna Information:
Type: Character String
Length: 72 Bytes
Description: Antenna directionality information of the device in dB relativ=
e to the main lobe maximum gain for every 5 degree azimuth clockwise starti=
ng from the direction of the maximum antenna gain expressed in unit of 0.25=
 dB over the range -63.75 dB (encoded 0x00) to 0 dB (0xFF). (to allow the d=
atabase calculation of the channel availability and the maximum allowed EIR=
P values at the registering location19)

Field: Antenna Azimuth
Type: Integer
Length: 2 Bytes
Description: Antenna azimuth in degrees clockwise from true North

*       RF Mask Parameters (Master WSD =3D> database)
o       Regulatory Domain (3 ASCII Letters), Device Type (Regulatory Class:=
 e. g., Fixed, Personal/Portable, Mobile, etc.) (1 byte INT), Mask Number I=
ndex (2 byte INT) (where Mask Number Index corresponds to a particular RF M=
ask of an equipment that is stored in the database and that has passed the =
regulatory certification).
Example: 802.22 primitive:

Example of IEEE 802.22 Primitive

Field: Device Type
Type: Integer
Length: 1 Byte
Description: The value identifies the type of device at the geolocation reg=
istering
0x00 =3D Fixed base station
0x01 =3D Fixed CPE
0x02 =3D Personal/portable mode
0x03-0xFF =3D Reserved

[AMENDED] D.2: The data model MUST support specifying an ID of the subject.=
 This ID would becontain the ID of the device used to bethat has been certi=
fied by a regulatory body for a its regulatory domain as well as an identif=
ication of the technology that is being used.   (Master WSD =3D> database)

Example of IEEE 802.22 Primitive:


Field: Device Type
Type: Integer
Length: 1 Byte
Description: The value identifies the type of device at the geolocation reg=
istering
0x00 =3D Fixed base station
0x01 =3D Fixed CPE
0x02 =3D Personal/portable mode
0x03-0xFF =3D Reserved

Field: Device-ID Length
Type: Integer
Length: 2 Bytes
Description: Length of Device-ID field (# of characters)

Field: Device ID
Type: Character String
Length: Variable
Description: In US, this is FCC-ID

Field: Serial Number Length
Type: Integer
Length: 2 Bytes
Description: Length of Serial Number field (# of characters)

Field: Serial Number
Type: Character String
Length: Variable
Description: Serial Number of the Device


Note: The device-ID and Serial Number could be replaced by a universal iden=
tifier made of one or many parts .  The master WSD must also specify, as pa=
rt of its registration process with the database, the technology that it us=
es (e.g., IEEE 802.22, IEEE 802.11af, etc.) (see requirement O.7).


[AMENDED] D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the s=
ubjectWSD, the uncertainty in meters and confidence in percentage and accur=
acy of for the location determination. (Master WSD =3D> database)

Field: Location Data String Length
Type: Integer
Length: 2 Bytes
Description: Length of Location Data String field (# of characters)

Field: Location Data String
Type: Character String
Length: NMEA 0183 Character String
Description: The value identifies the location of the device (latitude, lon=
gitude).20


Note: NMEA 0183 $GPGGA or $GPGLL String can carry latitude and longitude in=
formation. In the work of the IEEE 802.22 Working Group, it was assumed tha=
t the altitude of a geographic point would be derived at the database based=
 on the latitude and longitude of the location of the WSD (see the note rel=
ated to HAAT in D.1 above for which ground elevation information would need=
 to be known). In 802.22 networks, the CPEs acquire their geolocation and t=
ransmit their latitude and longitude to the base station at the time of ass=
ociation. The base station would augment the location information defined i=
n the NMEA string format with uncertainty (m) and confidence level (%) as t=
he local regulator may want to define it.  These uncertainty and confidence=
 values would be generated at the base station based, for example, on the t=
echnology used by the WSDs to acquire their geolocation.  The uncertainty c=
ould also be artificially increased to take into account the size of the ar=
ea around a WSD where other WSD's not requiring geolocation (e.g., Mode I d=
evices in the USA) would operate.


[AMENDED] D.4: The Data Model MUST support specifying a list of available c=
hannel along with the maximum EIRP (dBm) that can be accommodated list and =
time constraints for the channel list availability. (Database =3D> Master W=
SD)

Field: Number of Channels Available
Type: Integer
Length: 1 Byte
Description: Number of TVWS Channels that are available
{If( Number of Channels Available > 0)

For (i=3D1; i=98 Number of Channels Available; i++)

Field: Max_EIRP and Channel Availability Schedule for Each Channel
Type: Vector of 2xN bytes and a number of pairs of NMEA 0183 $ZDA strings
Length: Variable
Description: List of available channel numbers and corresponding maximum al=
lowed EIRP expressed in dBm over the range -64 dBm (encoded 0x00) to +63.5 =
dBm (encoded 0xFF) as well as the availability schedule (start and stop dat=
e/time) for each channel in Universal date and time system.

}
}


D.5: The Data Model MUST support specifying the maximum output power of
the subject. (See D.4 above. Also, specifying the "maximum output power" is=
 not sufficient since it may or may not include the antenna gain. Specifyin=
g the EIRP is needed. D.5 should be deleted since it is proposed to be cove=
red in D.4.)

[AMENDED] D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability =
information for single and multiple locations. The database MUST also allow=
 a master device to act as a proxy for other WSDs and query on their behalf=
. (Master WSD =3D> Database)

In case of 802.22 systems which are to provide point-to-multipoint broadban=
d access service primarily to rural areas, the BS acts as a proxy for all i=
ts associated CPEs and queries the database for each device. If a query is =
to be grouped or made in a batch mode, all the information related to each =
device shall be provided to the BS (i.e., the database is not to perform th=
e intersection for all these devices and locations).

[Note: This option may be useful to 'batch' the database query process but =
it is not clear whether this would really increase the data transfer effici=
ency. In the case of the 802.22 WRAN systems, the base station will need to=
 acquire all the information about the available channels for each of these=
 CPEs (and the related maximum EIRP's) so that the operating channel and th=
e backup channels (to which the WRAN cell will need to move if the current =
operating channel becomes unavailable to ensure a transparent channel move)=
 can be determined locally from the best 'intersection' of these channels f=
or all the associated CPEs.  This will allow database queries for only new =
CPEs coming on board or being moved, and constraints to be added locally at=
 the base station to execute the 'intersection' process to produce the upda=
ted list of operational and backup channels that is to be transmitted to al=
l CPEs for refreshing.


[DISAGREE] D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability
information for an area around a specified location. (Database =3D> Master =
WSD)

In our opinion, this can be done through the normal query process if a quer=
y to the database can be done with dummy device IDs, for example for planni=
ng purposes, and hence, we feel that this is not really needed. If a query =
is done to the database with dummy device ID, the database should not regis=
ter these new devices and only provide the list of available channels. Ther=
e should therefore be a need to identify whether the included device ID is =
a real one or not.

[NEW] D.8: The Data Model should support reporting to the database the chan=
nels that the master WSD has selected as the operating channel and the back=
up channels (see requirement O.7).


P. Protocol Requirements:

[AGREE] P.1: The protocol MUST provide a mechanism for the subject to disco=
ver
the WS Database it has to use at a given location.

[AGREE] P.2: The protocol MUST support regulatory domain discovery.

[AGREE] P.3: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUS=
T
support the ability for the database to pushing updates in on channel avail=
ability changes to subjects.

[AGREE] P.4: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUS=
T
support mutual authentication and authorization.

[AGREE] P.5: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUS=
T
support integrity and confidentiality protection.

[AGREE]P.6: The protocol MUST support both username/password and digital
certificates based authentication.

[NEW] P.7: The protocol MUST require the master WSD to maintain contact wit=
h the database as specified by the local regulator as well as to specify an=
d re-register its operating and backup channels with at least the same peri=
odicity.

O. Operational Requirements:

[AMENDED] O.1: A master device MUST query the WS Database for the available
channels as often as required by the regulation (e.g., FCC requires once
per day) to verify that the operating channels, and backup channels in the =
case of providing transparent switch-over, continue to remain available.

[AMENDED] O.2: A master device MUST determine its location with the accurac=
yalong with its uncertainty (e.g., FCC requires +/- 50m) and confidence lev=
el (e.g., 95%) and send it to the database so that the proper WSD position =
and buffer distance around the device can be added to make sure that the wo=
rst case situation required by the regulation (e.g., FCC requires +/- ) is =
considered in the distance calculations taking place at before placing aque=
ry to the DB.

[AMENDED]  O.3: A master device which changes its location during its opera=
tion,
MUST query the WS Database for available operating channels each time
it moves more than the distance specified by the regulation (e.g., FCC spec=
ifies 100 m) from the location it occupied when it previously made the quer=
y from.

[AMENDED] O.4: The WS Database MUST provide the available channel list and =
the maximum EIRP corresponding to each channel when requested and MAY also =
provide time constraints for the each channel in the available list and max=
imum output power to the master device.

[AMENDED] O.5: A master device MUST be able to query the WS Database for it=
self as well as for its and include the FCC ID of the slave associated devi=
ces and compile the channel availability (and maximum EIRP thereof) so that=
 a common channel  can be selected for use by all these WSDs to form a netw=
ork. Furthermore, common channels may also need to be selected in a similar=
 way to become backup channels to allow for network channel switch that wou=
ld be transparent to the users in the query before allowing the slave devic=
e to
use the available channel.

[AMENDED] O.6: A master device MUST be capable to of validateing the digita=
l
certificate of the WS Database and whether it has been revoked or not.

O.7: A master device MUST be capable to check the validity of the WS
Database certificate and whether it has been revoked or not.[Repeat, see O.=
6]

[NEW] O.7: The database must be capable of keeping track of the channels th=
at are currently being utilized by the master devices and the technology th=
at they use (e.g., IEEE 802.22, IEEE 802.11af, etc.).

If a request for the available channel is made by another master WSD from t=
he same area and it is found that the new requesting master device technolo=
gy cannot co-exist, then that channel should be removed from the available =
channels list going to this new device.  Unless the given master WSD fails =
to re-query within the specified contact period, the database should make t=
hat channel available. Accordingly, the protocol should provide the master =
WSDs with a means to release their operating channel when not needed.

Note that without an active channel management mechanism (e.g., 802.22 spec=
trum manager), it is unlikely that having the database just specifying whic=
h channels are available to protect incumbent services on a 24 hours cycle =
will be sufficient to allow for proper operation of multiple WSDs in an are=
a without interference being caused among themselves. Without area specific=
 centralized spectrum management that directs and juggles master WSD channe=
l assignments virtually instantaneously, the result will be inefficient use=
 of White Space spectrum.


Apurva N. Mody, Ph. D.

Chair, IEEE 802.22 Standard Working Group
Mobile: (404)-819-0314
E-mail: apurva.mody@ieee.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com [mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 6:17 PM
To: paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Requirements

I forwarded the below initial list of requirements to the list a while ago,=
 but there was no discussions on them.
We got today a set of additional requirements from the 802.11af folks (see =
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/paws/current/msg00434.html). If there =
are no objections, I'd like to ask the Editor to include both these set of =
requirements to the new version of draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rq=
mts-00.

- Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Baj=
ko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley)
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 12:55 PM
To: paws@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] Requirements

Folks,

If you'll read this draft, you'll notice that section 6, the requirements s=
ection, is empty. During the Quebec meeting we agreed that these requiremen=
ts will be reformulated and discussed on the list before including them ont=
o the draft. I made a first attempt to reformulate the requirements and I'd=
 like to post them to the list to start a discussion on them. There are lot=
s of requirements still missing, so I'd welcome proposals for additional re=
quirements, as well as comments to these requirements:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Requirements

D. Data Model Requirements:

D.1: The Data Model MUST support specifying the antenna height parameter of=
 the subject

D.2: The data model MUST support specifying an ID of the subject. This ID w=
ould be the ID of the device used to be certified by a regulatory body for =
a regulatory domain

D.3: The Data Model MUST support specifying the location of the subject and=
 accuracy of location determination

D.4: The Data Model MUST support specifying a list of available channel lis=
t and time constrains for the channel list availability.

D.5: The Data Model MUST support specifying the maximum output power of the=
 subject.

D.6: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability informatio=
n for multiple locations.

D.7: The Data Model MUST support specifying channel availability informatio=
n for an area around a specified location.


P. Protocol Requirements:

P.1: The protocol MUST provide a mechanism for the subject to discover the =
WS Database it has to use at a given location.

P.2: The protocol MUST support regulatory domain discovery.

P.3: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUST suppor=
t pushing updates in channel availability changes to subjects

P.4: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUST suppor=
t mutual authentication and authorization.

P.5: The protocol between the master device and the WS Database MUST suppor=
t integrity and confidentiality protection.

P.6: The protocol MUST support both username/password and digital certifica=
tes based authentication.


O. Operational Requirements:

O.1: A master device MUST query the WS Database for the available channels =
as often as required by the regulation (eg, FCC requires once per day) to v=
erify that the operating

channels continue to remain available.

O.2: A master device MUST determine its location with the accuracy required=
 by the regulation (eg, FCC requires +/- 100m) before placing a query to th=
e DB

O.3: A master device which changes its location during its operation, MUST =
query the WS Database for available operating channels each time it moves m=
ore than the distance

specified by the regulation (eg FCC specifies 100m) from the location it pr=
eviously made the query from.

O.4: The WS Database MUST provide the available channel list when requested=
 and MAY also provide time constraints for the channel list and maximum out=
put power to the master

device.

O.5: A master device MUST query the WS Database and include the FCC ID of t=
he slave device in the query before allowing the slave device to use the av=
ailable channel.

O.6: A master device MUST be capable to validate the digital certificate of=
 the WS Database.

O.7: A master device MUST be capable to check the validity of the WS Databa=
se certificate and whether it has been revoked or not.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
-Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=
 internet-drafts@ietf.org
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 10:08 AM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] I-D Action: draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-00.=
txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Protocol to Access WS database Workin=
g Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Protocol to Access White Space database: PS, use =
cases and rqmts
        Author(s)       : Scott Probasco
                          Gabor Bajko
                          Basavaraj Patil
                          Brian Rosen
        Filename        : draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-00.tx=
t
        Pages           : 25
        Date            : 2011-09-09

   Portions of the radio spectrum that are allocated to a licensed,
   primary user but are unused or unoccupied at specific locations and
   times are defined as &quot;white space&quot;.  The concept of allowing
   secondary transmissions (licensed or unlicensed) in white space is a
   technique to &quot;unlock&quot; existing spectrum for new use.  An obvio=
us
   requirement is that these secondary transmissions do not interfere
   with the primary use of the spectrum.  One approach to using the
   white space spectrum at a given time and location is to verify with a
   database available channels.

   This document describes the concept of TV White Spaces.  It also
   describes the problems that need to be addressed for enabling the use
   of the primary user owned white space spectrum for secondary users,
   without causing interference, by querying a database which knows the
   channel availability at any given location and time.  A number of
   possible use cases of this spectrum and derived requirements are also
   described.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-r=
qmts-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rq=
mts-00.txt
_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


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--_002_DA677CE046E02E42991EB3154C5E54060C0AF540BFGLDMS60322gol_--

From Peter.McCann@huawei.com  Fri Oct 28 13:29:34 2011
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Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 20:29:22 +0000
From: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements
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Hi, Apurva,

Mody, Apurva (US SSA) wrote:
> [NEW] O.7: The database must be capable of keeping track of the
> channels that are currently being utilized by the master devices and
> the technology that they use (e.g., IEEE 802.22, IEEE 802.11af, etc.).

I thought the point of whitespace operation was to enable experimental
uses, e.g., completely non-standard air interface technologies.  Do you
expect to enumerate the complete set of allowed technologies?  I don't
think it's possible and it raises all kinds of political questions.

> If a request for the available channel is made by another master WSD
> from the same area and it is found that the new requesting master
> device technology cannot co-exist, then that channel should be removed
> from the available channels list going to this new device.  Unless the
> given master WSD fails to re-query within the specified contact period,
> the database should make that channel available. Accordingly, the
> protocol should provide the master WSDs with a means to release their
> operating channel when not needed.
> 
> Note that without an active channel management mechanism (e.g., 802.22
> spectrum manager), it is unlikely that having the database just
> specifying which channels are available to protect incumbent services on
> a 24 hours cycle will be sufficient to allow for proper operation of
> multiple WSDs in an area without interference being caused among
> themselves. Without area specific centralized spectrum management that
> directs and juggles master WSD channel assignments virtually
> instantaneously, the result will be inefficient use of White Space
> spectrum.

I think the working group agreed that keeping any state in the database
was out of scope for this iteration of the charter items.

-Pete

From apurva.mody@baesystems.com  Fri Oct 28 13:36:22 2011
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From: "Mody, Apurva (US SSA)" <apurva.mody@baesystems.com>
To: Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:36:18 -0400
Thread-Topic: IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements
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Hello Peter,=20

In our opinion, the database service can do much more than just providing t=
he list of available channels.=20

Especially now that spectrum sensing is no longer a requirement, how are we=
 going to ensure co-existence between disparate technologies and efficient =
usage of spectrum?=20

Why can' t we create a protocol that is flexible enough so that if some dat=
abase service provider does want to solve the co-existence problem, they ca=
n. In our opinion, eliminating this possibility is too constraining for a t=
echnology of the future.=20

Thanks

Apurva


Apurva N. Mody, Ph. D.

Chair, IEEE 802.22 Standard Working Group
BAE Systems=20
Technology Solutions
130 Daniel Webster Highway, Mail Stop 2350
Merrimack, NH 03054
Work: (603)885 2621, Mobile: (603)-809-0459=20
E-mail: apurva.mody@baesystems.com





=20




-----Original Message-----
From: Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 4:29 PM
To: Mody, Apurva (US SSA); paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements

Hi, Apurva,

Mody, Apurva (US SSA) wrote:
> [NEW] O.7: The database must be capable of keeping track of the
> channels that are currently being utilized by the master devices and
> the technology that they use (e.g., IEEE 802.22, IEEE 802.11af, etc.).

I thought the point of whitespace operation was to enable experimental
uses, e.g., completely non-standard air interface technologies.  Do you
expect to enumerate the complete set of allowed technologies?  I don't
think it's possible and it raises all kinds of political questions.

> If a request for the available channel is made by another master WSD
> from the same area and it is found that the new requesting master
> device technology cannot co-exist, then that channel should be removed
> from the available channels list going to this new device.  Unless the
> given master WSD fails to re-query within the specified contact period,
> the database should make that channel available. Accordingly, the
> protocol should provide the master WSDs with a means to release their
> operating channel when not needed.
>=20
> Note that without an active channel management mechanism (e.g., 802.22
> spectrum manager), it is unlikely that having the database just
> specifying which channels are available to protect incumbent services on
> a 24 hours cycle will be sufficient to allow for proper operation of
> multiple WSDs in an area without interference being caused among
> themselves. Without area specific centralized spectrum management that
> directs and juggles master WSD channel assignments virtually
> instantaneously, the result will be inefficient use of White Space
> spectrum.

I think the working group agreed that keeping any state in the database
was out of scope for this iteration of the charter items.

-Pete

From Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com  Fri Oct 28 13:55:35 2011
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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
To: <apurva.mody@baesystems.com>, <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [paws] IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements
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Since more people are bringing up this co-existence topic, I'll reserve som=
e time in the Taipei session to discuss about its in_scope/out_of_scope iss=
ue.

-Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=
 Mody, Apurva (US SSA)
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:36 PM
To: Peter McCann; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements

Hello Peter,=20

In our opinion, the database service can do much more than just providing t=
he list of available channels.=20

Especially now that spectrum sensing is no longer a requirement, how are we=
 going to ensure co-existence between disparate technologies and efficient =
usage of spectrum?=20

Why can' t we create a protocol that is flexible enough so that if some dat=
abase service provider does want to solve the co-existence problem, they ca=
n. In our opinion, eliminating this possibility is too constraining for a t=
echnology of the future.=20

Thanks

Apurva


Apurva N. Mody, Ph. D.

Chair, IEEE 802.22 Standard Working Group BAE Systems Technology Solutions
130 Daniel Webster Highway, Mail Stop 2350 Merrimack, NH 03054
Work: (603)885 2621, Mobile: (603)-809-0459
E-mail: apurva.mody@baesystems.com





=20




-----Original Message-----
From: Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 4:29 PM
To: Mody, Apurva (US SSA); paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements

Hi, Apurva,

Mody, Apurva (US SSA) wrote:
> [NEW] O.7: The database must be capable of keeping track of the=20
> channels that are currently being utilized by the master devices and=20
> the technology that they use (e.g., IEEE 802.22, IEEE 802.11af, etc.).

I thought the point of whitespace operation was to enable experimental uses=
, e.g., completely non-standard air interface technologies.  Do you expect =
to enumerate the complete set of allowed technologies?  I don't think it's =
possible and it raises all kinds of political questions.

> If a request for the available channel is made by another master WSD=20
> from the same area and it is found that the new requesting master=20
> device technology cannot co-exist, then that channel should be removed=20
> from the available channels list going to this new device.  Unless the=20
> given master WSD fails to re-query within the specified contact=20
> period, the database should make that channel available. Accordingly,=20
> the protocol should provide the master WSDs with a means to release=20
> their operating channel when not needed.
>=20
> Note that without an active channel management mechanism (e.g., 802.22=20
> spectrum manager), it is unlikely that having the database just=20
> specifying which channels are available to protect incumbent services=20
> on a 24 hours cycle will be sufficient to allow for proper operation=20
> of multiple WSDs in an area without interference being caused among=20
> themselves. Without area specific centralized spectrum management that=20
> directs and juggles master WSD channel assignments virtually=20
> instantaneously, the result will be inefficient use of White Space=20
> spectrum.

I think the working group agreed that keeping any state in the database was=
 out of scope for this iteration of the charter items.

-Pete
_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

From paul@marvell.com  Fri Oct 28 17:06:53 2011
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From: Paul Lambert <paul@marvell.com>
To: "Mody, Apurva (US SSA)" <apurva.mody@baesystems.com>, Peter McCann <Peter.McCann@huawei.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
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Hi Apurva,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Mody, Apurva (US SSA)
...
> Hello Peter,
>=20
> In our opinion, the database service can do much more than just
> providing the list of available channels.
>=20
> Especially now that spectrum sensing is no longer a requirement, how
> are we going to ensure co-existence between disparate technologies and
> efficient usage of spectrum?

Googling, I can see an example of your notion of a cognitive radio with sen=
sing and co-existence:
	http://tinyurl.com/3r3ouy7 =20
However, I do not see why this should be in scope.  This group will be succ=
essful if it solves the more narrow problem of just getting the regulatory =
allowed channels.

While sending channels for coexistence looks like a similar protocol and ma=
y use many of the same fields, it has a variety of other complexities that =
we should avoid.  Specifically:
1) The authentication range of the security is very different for a known r=
egulatory authority versus a recommendation for "co-existence" that may com=
e from another third party.  Coexistence is typically a more local issue an=
d really cannot be bundled in the same authenticated spectral entitlements.=
  Also - our requirement is to support unlicensed radio, which means it's r=
ally difficult to securely determine who should pay attention to a specific=
 coexistence service.
2) It greatly complicates the database.  As Peter points out - we do not wa=
nt to have to support this type of stateful behavior.
3) Radio link layer protocols already handle many sensing and detection mec=
hanisms necessary for this type of functionality (802.11v measurements 802.=
22 coexistance, etc).

So - this group should "just say no" to the whole co-existence quagmire.  I=
t's not necessary for our work and only takes up the bandwidth of this grou=
p.  Humm - maybe we should consider it a channel of discussion that is not =
available :-)=20

Paul



>=20
> Why can' t we create a protocol that is flexible enough so that if some
> database service provider does want to solve the co-existence problem,
> they can. In our opinion, eliminating this possibility is too
> constraining for a technology of the future.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Apurva
>=20
>=20
> Apurva N. Mody, Ph. D.
>=20
> Chair, IEEE 802.22 Standard Working Group
> BAE Systems
> Technology Solutions
> 130 Daniel Webster Highway, Mail Stop 2350
> Merrimack, NH 03054
> Work: (603)885 2621, Mobile: (603)-809-0459
> E-mail: apurva.mody@baesystems.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 4:29 PM
> To: Mody, Apurva (US SSA); paws@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements
>=20
> Hi, Apurva,
>=20
> Mody, Apurva (US SSA) wrote:
> > [NEW] O.7: The database must be capable of keeping track of the
> > channels that are currently being utilized by the master devices and
> > the technology that they use (e.g., IEEE 802.22, IEEE 802.11af,
> etc.).
>=20
> I thought the point of whitespace operation was to enable experimental
> uses, e.g., completely non-standard air interface technologies.  Do you
> expect to enumerate the complete set of allowed technologies?  I don't
> think it's possible and it raises all kinds of political questions.
>=20
> > If a request for the available channel is made by another master WSD
> > from the same area and it is found that the new requesting master
> > device technology cannot co-exist, then that channel should be
> removed
> > from the available channels list going to this new device.  Unless
> the
> > given master WSD fails to re-query within the specified contact
> period,
> > the database should make that channel available. Accordingly, the
> > protocol should provide the master WSDs with a means to release their
> > operating channel when not needed.
> >
> > Note that without an active channel management mechanism (e.g.,
> 802.22
> > spectrum manager), it is unlikely that having the database just
> > specifying which channels are available to protect incumbent services
> on
> > a 24 hours cycle will be sufficient to allow for proper operation of
> > multiple WSDs in an area without interference being caused among
> > themselves. Without area specific centralized spectrum management
> that
> > directs and juggles master WSD channel assignments virtually
> > instantaneously, the result will be inefficient use of White Space
> > spectrum.
>=20
> I think the working group agreed that keeping any state in the database
> was out of scope for this iteration of the charter items.
>=20
> -Pete
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws

From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Fri Oct 28 22:24:03 2011
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Subject: Re: [paws] IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements
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There is no question that a service can provide more than just the 
regulatory information.
The service to provide that may or may not be the same service as the 
one that provides the regulatory information.

And more importantly, as Paul observed, we had agreed to focus on 
solving the small problem first.  For the IETF< this has been found to 
be a (arguably the) path to success.  So we should deliver the query / 
response protocol for the regulatory information, and after that is done 
we can entertain other ideas for what can/should/must be done.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/28/2011 4:36 PM, Mody, Apurva (US SSA) wrote:
> Hello Peter,
>
> In our opinion, the database service can do much more than just providing the list of available channels.
>
> Especially now that spectrum sensing is no longer a requirement, how are we going to ensure co-existence between disparate technologies and efficient usage of spectrum?
>
> Why can' t we create a protocol that is flexible enough so that if some database service provider does want to solve the co-existence problem, they can. In our opinion, eliminating this possibility is too constraining for a technology of the future.
>
> Thanks
>
> Apurva
>
>
> Apurva N. Mody, Ph. D.
>
> Chair, IEEE 802.22 Standard Working Group
> BAE Systems
> Technology Solutions
> 130 Daniel Webster Highway, Mail Stop 2350
> Merrimack, NH 03054
> Work: (603)885 2621, Mobile: (603)-809-0459
> E-mail: apurva.mody@baesystems.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter McCann [mailto:Peter.McCann@huawei.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 4:29 PM
> To: Mody, Apurva (US SSA); paws@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: IEEE 802.22 Feedback on PAWS Requirements
>
> Hi, Apurva,
>
> Mody, Apurva (US SSA) wrote:
>> [NEW] O.7: The database must be capable of keeping track of the
>> channels that are currently being utilized by the master devices and
>> the technology that they use (e.g., IEEE 802.22, IEEE 802.11af, etc.).
>
> I thought the point of whitespace operation was to enable experimental
> uses, e.g., completely non-standard air interface technologies.  Do you
> expect to enumerate the complete set of allowed technologies?  I don't
> think it's possible and it raises all kinds of political questions.
>
>> If a request for the available channel is made by another master WSD
>> from the same area and it is found that the new requesting master
>> device technology cannot co-exist, then that channel should be removed
>> from the available channels list going to this new device.  Unless the
>> given master WSD fails to re-query within the specified contact period,
>> the database should make that channel available. Accordingly, the
>> protocol should provide the master WSDs with a means to release their
>> operating channel when not needed.
>>
>> Note that without an active channel management mechanism (e.g., 802.22
>> spectrum manager), it is unlikely that having the database just
>> specifying which channels are available to protect incumbent services on
>> a 24 hours cycle will be sufficient to allow for proper operation of
>> multiple WSDs in an area without interference being caused among
>> themselves. Without area specific centralized spectrum management that
>> directs and juggles master WSD channel assignments virtually
>> instantaneously, the result will be inefficient use of White Space
>> spectrum.
>
> I think the working group agreed that keeping any state in the database
> was out of scope for this iteration of the charter items.
>
> -Pete
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>

From andy.sago@bt.com  Mon Oct 31 07:40:46 2011
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From: <andy.sago@bt.com>
To: <scott.probasco@nokia.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 +0000
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com [mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case.=
.." which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and note=
 this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don't currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a database=
. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn't i=
nclude this method in the submission. As you are stating you require it, I'=
m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too - at present we don't yet have their final list of requ=
irements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in order t=
o offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unknown=
 (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am reque=
sting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling=
 the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in the Ch=
arter, viz. "the particular data exchanged between a device and a database =
might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the requi=
rements of the database operators and their governing regulations, and othe=
r factors").

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2..."

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term 'device ID' which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as 'model ID' and 'FCC ID'. This Internet D=
raft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Ca=
rlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector=
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your comments=
 on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in full agreement with you=
r position, please see my comments in-line.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-t=
op:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><=
span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-seri=
f"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> scott.probasco@nokia.com [mailto:scott.probasco@n=
okia.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 25 October 2011 21:39<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy=
,COD R; paws@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zun=
iga@InterDigital.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use c=
ases, revision of DB discovery use case<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi A=
ndy, Mike &amp; Juan Carlos,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black=
'>Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>1. The proposed revision to the=
 database discovery use case does simplify the text and introduces the &quo=
t;listing&quot; method from the UK. These changes make sense to me. The rev=
ision also removes the option for a pre-programmed address of a trusted dat=
abase. I believe this is an important option and should remain in the I-D. =
A possible remedy is to remove &nbsp;&quot;In the simplest case&#8230;&quot=
; which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and note t=
his to be an option.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[And=
y Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The text in our submission mainly addresses t=
he UK requirements, which don&#8217;t currently anticipate a fixed IP addre=
ss or url for a database. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some=
 drawbacks so I didn&#8217;t include this method in the submission. As you =
are stating you require it, I&#8217;m happy for it to remain as an option.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:black'>2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to re=
move step 7 which describes updating the database with the selections made =
by the master device. I personally see merit in this capability. However, f=
ollowing previous discussions on this mail list, and after review of our Ch=
arter, I believe this step to update the database with information is not w=
ithin our current scope; I am planning to remove similar steps from other u=
se cases in the next update. The issue of scope is merely my personal opini=
on.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have =
to disagree, both with removing this step here and with removing similar st=
eps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC and Canada already =
require the database to know the details of some links (e.g. rural broadban=
d) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the master device repo=
rt back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requirements posted to =
the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may require this facility too=
 &#8211; at present we don&#8217;t yet have their final list of requirement=
s. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in order to offer=
 value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unknown (no bu=
t my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am requesting t=
his facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling the re=
quirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in the Charter, =
viz. &#8220;the particular data exchanged between a device and a database m=
ight depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the requir=
ements of the database operators and their governing regulations, and other=
 factors&#8221;).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> &nbsp;</span></i><=
/b><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>3. In the M2M use case,=
 would you consider the following revisions:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'>[First paragraph]<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:black'>&quot;In this use case, each &quot;machine&quot; include=
s a white space slave device and can be located anywhere, fixed or on the m=
ove. Each machine needs to have connectivity to the internet and or to othe=
r machines in the vicinity. Machine communication over a TVWS channel, whet=
her to a master device or to another machine (slave device), is under the c=
ontrol of a master device. This deployment scenario is typically characteri=
zed by a master device with internet connectivity by some connection that d=
oes not utilize TV white space. Figure 2&#8230;&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>[St=
ep 6]<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>6. The slav=
e devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the master tra=
nsmissions, and associate with the master device.&nbsp;Further signaling ca=
n take place outside &nbsp;scope of PAWS to establish direct links among th=
ose slave devices that have associated with the master device.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:b=
lack'>[Step 7]<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Pr=
opose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Networkin=
g use case.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same re=
asons as for the Indoor Networking use case.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>=
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Scott<=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;p=
adding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black=
'>&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date=
: </b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto=
:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org=
">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probas=
co@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@In=
terDigital.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[paws] New indoor and M2M use cas=
es, revision of DB discovery use case<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:bla=
ck'>Hi Scott, all<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.=
org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt">http://www.i=
etf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt</a> propo=
ses revision of the database discovery use case, two new use cases for indo=
or networking and machine to machine communications, and a set of requireme=
nts that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the working docum=
ent. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as currently known.=
 Also, a definition is proposed for the term &#8216;device ID&#8217; which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as &#8216;model ID&#8217; and &#8216;FCC ID=
&#8217;. This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), An=
dy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome commen=
ts made to the reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in T=
aipei if it would be helpful in providing further explanation to the conten=
t in the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:black'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Andy Sago (BT), Mike=
 Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>=
&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From: <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
To: <andy.sago@bt.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Hi Andy,

Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep the possibility for d=
evices to update information in the database, my concern is merely to opera=
te within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada require the=
 database to know the details of some links, are you able to cite a referen=
ce? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accommodate all regulatory requ=
irements.

The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much tim=
e remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 +0000
To: Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.c=
om>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf=
.org>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case=
=85" which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and not=
e this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a databa=
se. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn=
=92t include this method in the submission. As you are stating you require =
it, I=92m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too =96 at present we don=92t yet have their final list of =
requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in ord=
er to offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unk=
nown (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am r=
equesting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfil=
ling the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in th=
e Charter, viz. =93the particular data exchanged between a device and a dat=
abase might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the=
 requirements of the database operators and their governing regulations, an=
d other factors=94).

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2=85"

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 wh=
ich we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for=
 consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. Thi=
s Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT)=
 and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to t=
he reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it =
would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in the doc=
ument.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





--_000_CAD42348BDA1scottprobasconokiacom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
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<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>Hi Andy,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep the possibility =
for devices to update information in the database, my concern is merely to =
operate within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada requir=
e the database to know the details
 of some links, are you able to cite a reference? My personal opinion is th=
at PAWS should accommodate all regulatory requirements.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not muc=
h time remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.</d=
iv>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Scott</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
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 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:a=
ndy.sago@bt.com">
andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sag=
o@bt.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 &#4=
3;0000<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.f=
itch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>RE: [paws] New indoor and =
M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; ">Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. U=
nfortunately I am not in full agreement with your position, please see my c=
omments in-line.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; fo=
nt-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">
<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a> [<=
a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com<=
/a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 October 2011 21:39<br>
<b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@Int=
erDigital.com">
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB dis=
covery use case<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Hi Andy, Mike &amp; Juan Carlos,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Thank you for providing the I-D. After revi=
ew I have a few comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">1. The proposed revision to the database di=
scovery use case does simplify the text and introduces the &quot;listing&qu=
ot; method from the UK. These changes make sense
 to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed address o=
f a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and should rema=
in in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove &nbsp;&quot;In the simplest c=
ase=85&quot; which might mistakenly imply some preference
 to this solution, and note this to be an option.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(3=
1, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">The text in our submission mainly addres=
ses the UK requirements, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed IP addr=
ess or url for a database. Personally
 I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn=92t include thi=
s method in the submission. As you are stating you require it, I=92m happy =
for it to remain as an option.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I sug=
gest to remove step 7 which describes updating the database with the select=
ions made by the master device. I personally
 see merit in this capability. However, following previous discussions on t=
his mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this step to upda=
te the database with information is not within our current scope; I am plan=
ning to remove similar steps from
 other use cases in the next update. The issue of scope is merely my person=
al opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I have to disagree, both with removing t=
his step here and with removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, =
as I understand it FCC and Canada
 already require the database to know the details of some links (e.g. rural=
 broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the master de=
vice report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requirements p=
osted to the reflector also ask
 for this. Secondly, UK may require this facility too =96 at present we don=
=92t yet have their final list of requirements. Thirdly, a database operato=
r may require this facility in order to offer value added services. The ope=
rators in the UK are currently unknown
 (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am reque=
sting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling=
 the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in the Ch=
arter, viz. =93the particular data
 exchanged between a device and a database might depend on the ranges of ra=
dio spectrum that are to be used, the requirements of the database operator=
s and their governing regulations, and other factors=94).<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></i></b><span style=3D"color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">3. In the M2M use case, would you consider =
the following revisions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[First paragraph]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&quot;In this use case, each &quot;machine&=
quot; includes a white space slave device and can be located anywhere, fixe=
d or on the move. Each machine needs to have connectivity
 to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machine communic=
ation over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to another machine=
 (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This deployment s=
cenario is typically characterized
 by a master device with internet connectivity by some connection that does=
 not utilize TV white space. Figure 2=85&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Agreed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Step 6]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">6. The slave devices fitted to the machines=
 scan the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and associate with t=
he master device.&nbsp;Further signaling
 can take place outside &nbsp;scope of PAWS to establish direct links among=
 those slave devices that have associated with the master device.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Agreed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Step 7]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Propose to remove this step for same reason=
s as discussed in Indoor Networking use case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for=
 the Indoor Networking use case.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; ">&quot;ext
<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 &#43;0100<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Database Device =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com=
</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.=
com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discove=
ry use case<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">Hi Scott, all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">I-D
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requir=
ements-00.txt">
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.t=
xt</a> proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of
 all the use cases included so far in the working document. These especiall=
y address the UK Ofcom requirements as currently known. Also, a definition =
is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 which we suggest should be used th=
roughout the use cases and requirements
 for consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92.=
 This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago =
(BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made =
to the reflector on these proposals. We
 are willing to present in Taipei if it would be helpful in providing furth=
er explanation to the content in the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigi=
tal)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CAD42348BDA1scottprobasconokiacom_--

From Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk  Mon Oct 31 09:08:08 2011
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From: Andrew Gowans <Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk>
To: "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>, "andy.sago@bt.com" <andy.sago@bt.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Scott/All,

I can confirm that Andy Sago is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed wh=
at our final requirements may be regarding the need for a return channel as=
 a regulatory requirement or not. I would say at this stage there is no har=
m in keeping it in the document being taken forward as it seems that it wil=
l be within your guidelines if any regulator requires it in the future. I t=
ake it these elements can be treated like other requirements that may be re=
gion or country specific. I say this in the knowledge that the current prop=
osals from Ofcom will require different requirements from that of the US pr=
oposals hence there will have to a master set of requirements which will mo=
re than likely be reduced to a subset of the requirements dependent upon ea=
ch regulatory domain.

Best regards

Andy  Gowans

From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com
Sent: 31 October 2011 15:28
To: andy.sago@bt.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep the possibility for d=
evices to update information in the database, my concern is merely to opera=
te within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada require the=
 database to know the details of some links, are you able to cite a referen=
ce? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accommodate all regulatory requ=
irements.

The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much tim=
e remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 +0000
To: Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.c=
om>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf=
.org>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case.=
.." which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and note=
 this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don't currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a database=
. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn't i=
nclude this method in the submission. As you are stating you require it, I'=
m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too - at present we don't yet have their final list of requ=
irements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in order t=
o offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unknown=
 (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am reque=
sting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling=
 the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in the Ch=
arter, viz. "the particular data exchanged between a device and a database =
might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the requi=
rements of the database operators and their governing regulations, and othe=
r factors").

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2..."

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term 'device ID' which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as 'model ID' and 'FCC ID'. This Internet D=
raft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Ca=
rlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector=
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Scott/All,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">I can confirm that Andy=
 Sago is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed what our final requiremen=
ts may be regarding the need for a return channel as a regulatory
 requirement or not. I would say at this stage there is no harm in keeping =
it in the document being taken forward as it seems that it will be within y=
our guidelines if any regulator requires it in the future. I take it these =
elements can be treated like other
 requirements that may be region or country specific. I say this in the kno=
wledge that the current proposals from Ofcom will require different require=
ments from that of the US proposals hence there will have to a master set o=
f requirements which will more than
 likely be reduced to a subset of the requirements dependent upon each regu=
latory domain.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Best regards</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Andy &nbsp;Gowans</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;"> paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>scott.probasco@nokia.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 15:28<br>
<b>To:</b> andy.sago@bt.com; paws@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB dis=
covery use case</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Hi Andy,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Thank you for your reply.=
 As said, I do favor to keep the possibility for devices to update informat=
ion in the database, my concern is merely to operate within
 our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada require the database=
 to know the details of some links, are you able to cite a reference? My pe=
rsonal opinion is that PAWS should accommodate all regulatory requirements.=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">The updated I-D must be u=
ploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much time remains to include disc=
ussions from the email list in this draft.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Scott</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&quot;ext
<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 &#43;0000<br>
<b>To: </b>Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">=
scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">pa=
ws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com=
</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.=
com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB dis=
covery use case</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Scott</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Thanks for your comments on our joint sub=
mission. Unfortunately I am not in full agreement with your position, pleas=
e see my comments in-line.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Regards</span><span style=3D"color:black"=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Andy</span><span style=3D"color:black"></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">From:</s=
pan></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;T=
ahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">
<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a> [<=
a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com<=
/a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 October 2011 21:39<br>
<b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@Int=
erDigital.com">
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB dis=
covery use case</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Hi Andy, Mike &amp; Juan =
Carlos,</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Thank you for providing t=
he I-D. After review I have a few comments.</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">1. The proposed revision =
to the database discovery use case does simplify the text and introduces th=
e &quot;listing&quot; method from the UK. These changes make sense
 to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed address o=
f a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and should rema=
in in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove &nbsp;&quot;In the simplest c=
ase&#8230;&quot; which might mistakenly imply some preference
 to this solution, and note this to be an option.</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">[Andy Sago]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">The text in our submission main=
ly addresses the UK requirements, which don&#8217;t currently anticipate a =
fixed IP address or url for a database. Personally I feel a
 fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn&#8217;t include this met=
hod in the submission. As you are stating you require it, I&#8217;m happy f=
or it to remain as an option.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">2. In the Indoor Networki=
ng use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which describes updating the databa=
se with the selections made by the master device. I personally
 see merit in this capability. However, following previous discussions on t=
his mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this step to upda=
te the database with information is not within our current scope; I am plan=
ning to remove similar steps from
 other use cases in the next update. The issue of scope is merely my person=
al opinion.</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">[Andy Sago]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">I have to disagree, both with r=
emoving this step here and with removing similar steps in other use cases. =
Firstly, as I understand it FCC and Canada already require
 the database to know the details of some links (e.g. rural broadband) and =
this requirement could be fulfilled by having the master device report back=
 directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requirements posted to the ref=
lector also ask for this. Secondly,
 UK may require this facility too &#8211; at present we don&#8217;t yet hav=
e their final list of requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may requir=
e this facility in order to offer value added services. The operators in th=
e UK are currently unknown (no but my company
 could be a prospective database operator, so I am requesting this facility=
. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling the requirements o=
f database operators is specifically mentioned in the Charter, viz. &#8220;=
the particular data exchanged between
 a device and a database might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that =
are to be used, the requirements of the database operators and their govern=
ing regulations, and other factors&#8221;).</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></i></b><span style=3D=
"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">3. In the M2M use case, w=
ould you consider the following revisions:</span><span style=3D"color:black=
"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">[First paragraph]</span><=
span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&quot;In this use case, e=
ach &quot;machine&quot; includes a white space slave device and can be loca=
ted anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have connectivity
 to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machine communic=
ation over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to another machine=
 (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This deployment s=
cenario is typically characterized
 by a master device with internet connectivity by some connection that does=
 not utilize TV white space. Figure 2&#8230;&quot;</span><span style=3D"col=
or:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">[Andy Sago]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Agreed</span><span style=3D"col=
or:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">[Step 6]</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">6. The slave devices fitt=
ed to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, an=
d associate with the master device.&nbsp;Further signaling can
 take place outside &nbsp;scope of PAWS to establish direct links among tho=
se slave devices that have associated with the master device.</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">[Andy Sago]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">Agreed</span><span style=3D"col=
or:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">[Step 7]</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Propose to remove this st=
ep for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Networking use case.</span><span=
 style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reas=
ons as for the Indoor Networking use case.</span></i></b><span style=3D"col=
or:black"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black">=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Regards,</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Scott</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&quot;ext
<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 &#43;0100<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Database Device =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com=
</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.=
com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discove=
ry use case</span><span style=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Hi Scott, all</span><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">I-D
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requir=
ements-00.txt">
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.t=
xt</a> proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of
 all the use cases included so far in the working document. These especiall=
y address the UK Ofcom requirements as currently known. Also, a definition =
is proposed for the term &#8216;device ID&#8217; which we suggest should be=
 used throughout the use cases and requirements
 for consistency in place of terms such as &#8216;model ID&#8217; and &#821=
6;FCC ID&#8217;. This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch =
(BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcom=
e comments made to the reflector on these proposals. We
 are willing to present in Taipei if it would be helpful in providing furth=
er explanation to the content in the document.</span><span style=3D"color:b=
lack"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;; color:black">Regards</span><span style=3D"color:black"><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
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From peter@spectrumbridge.com  Mon Oct 31 09:50:33 2011
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From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com>
To: "andy.sago@bt.com" <andy.sago@bt.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:50:34 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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--_000_CAD4490C15FB4peterspectrumbridgecom_
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Andy,
In reference to 2. below,  The FCC does not have any rule  that a radio rep=
ort it's channel use to a DB. There has been no comment/concern about this =
in our TVWS database trial. I agree that it is nice to have and could be th=
e basis of value added services, but it is not explicitly required. I could=
 not find any "requirement" in the Canadian proposal either.
Regards,
Peter S.

From: "andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:=
andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:39:37 -0400
To: "scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>" <scott.prob=
asco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paw=
s@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case=
=85" which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and not=
e this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a databa=
se. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn=
=92t include this method in the submission. As you are stating you require =
it, I=92m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too =96 at present we don=92t yet have their final list of =
requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in ord=
er to offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unk=
nown (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am r=
equesting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfil=
ling the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in th=
e Charter, viz. =93the particular data exchanged between a device and a dat=
abase might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the=
 requirements of the database operators and their governing regulations, an=
d other factors=94).

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2=85"

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 wh=
ich we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for=
 consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. Thi=
s Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT)=
 and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to t=
he reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it =
would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in the doc=
ument.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div>Andy,</div><div>In reference to=
 2. below, &nbsp;The FCC does not have any rule &nbsp;that a radio report i=
t's channel use to a DB. There has been no comment/concern about this in ou=
r TVWS database trial. I agree that it is nice to have and could be the bas=
is of value added services, but it is not explicitly required. I could not =
find any &quot;requirement&quot; in the Canadian proposal either.</div><div=
>Regards,</div><div>Peter S.</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_S=
ECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:12pt; text-align:left;=
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t solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-w=
eight:bold">From: </span> &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sa=
go@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.co=
m</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 31 Oct 201=
1 10:39:37 -0400<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> &quot;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a=
>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"fon=
t-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, re=
vision of DB discovery use case<br></div><div><br></div><div xmlns:v=3D"urn=
:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:off=
ice" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://sc=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=
=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; ">Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortu=
nately I am not in full agreement with your position, please see my comment=
s in-line.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color=
: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 12=
5); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><d=
iv style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0c=
m 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 1=
0pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> <a href=3D"=
mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a> [<a href=3D"m=
ailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>] <br><b=
>Sent:</b> 25 October 2011 21:39<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=
=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,=
DES8 R; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zu=
niga@InterDigital.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M =
use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; ">Hi Andy, Mike &amp; Juan Carlos,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I =
have a few comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; ">1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simp=
lify the text and introduces the &quot;listing&quot; method from the UK. Th=
ese changes make sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pr=
e-programmed address of a trusted database. I believe this is an important =
option and should remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove &nbsp;&=
quot;In the simplest case=85&quot; which might mistakenly imply some prefer=
ence to this solution, and note this to be an option.<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color=
: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span>=
</i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">The text in our submission mainly addresses the=
 UK requirements, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or =
url for a database. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawb=
acks so I didn=92t include this method in the submission. As you are statin=
g you require it, I=92m happy for it to remain as an option.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest =
to remove step 7 which describes updating the database with the selections =
made by the master device. I personally see merit in this capability. Howev=
er, following previous discussions on this mail list, and after review of o=
ur Charter, I believe this step to update the database with information is =
not within our current scope; I am planning to remove similar steps from ot=
her use cases in the next update. The issue of scope is merely my personal =
opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span sty=
le=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sa=
go] </span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125=
); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I have to disagree, both with removi=
ng this step here and with removing similar steps in other use cases. First=
ly, as I understand it FCC and Canada already require the database to know =
the details of some links (e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could=
 be fulfilled by having the master device report back directly to the datab=
ase. The recent 802.22 requirements posted to the reflector also ask for th=
is. Secondly, UK may require this facility too =96 at present we don=92t ye=
t have their final list of requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may r=
equire this facility in order to offer value added services. The operators =
in the UK are currently unknown (no but my company could be a prospective d=
atabase operator, so I am requesting this facility. This is certainly withi=
n the scope of PAWS (fulfilling the requirements of database operators is s=
pecifically mentioned in the Charter, viz. =93the particular data exchanged=
 between a device and a database might depend on the ranges of radio spectr=
um that are to be used, the requirements of the database operators and thei=
r governing regulations, and other factors=94).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "> &nbsp;</span></i></b><span style=3D"color: rgb(31,=
 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">3. In the M2M use case, would you cons=
ider the following revisions:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; ">[First paragraph]<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; ">&quot;In this use case, each &quot;machine&quot; in=
cludes a white space slave device and can be located anywhere, fixed or on =
the move. Each machine needs to have connectivity to the internet and or to=
 other machines in the vicinity. Machine communication over a TVWS channel,=
 whether to a master device or to another machine (slave device), is under =
the control of a master device. This deployment scenario is typically chara=
cterized by a master device with internet connectivity by some connection t=
hat does not utilize TV white space. Figure 2=85&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125)=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">Agreed<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Step 6]<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10=
.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">6. The slave device=
s fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the master transmissio=
ns, and associate with the master device.&nbsp;Further signaling can take p=
lace outside &nbsp;scope of PAWS to establish direct links among those slav=
e devices that have associated with the master device.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125)=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">Agreed<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Step 7]<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10=
.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Propose to remove t=
his step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Networking use case.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] Disagree, =
for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use case.<o:p></o:p></span></=
i></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"bor=
der:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; c=
olor: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailt=
o:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.s=
ago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49=
:34 &#43;0100<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;,=
 Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.prob=
asco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt=
.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<b=
r><b>Subject: </b>[paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB disco=
very use case<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Hi Scott, =
all<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</s=
pan><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: bla=
ck; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=
id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt">http://www.ietf.=
org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt</a> proposes =
revision of the database discovery use case, two new use cases for indoor n=
etworking and machine to machine communications, and a set of requirements =
that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the working document.=
 These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as currently known. Als=
o, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 which we suggest s=
hould be used throughout the use cases and requirements for consistency in =
place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. This Internet Draft=
 is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos=
 Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector on =
these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be helpful=
 in providing further explanation to the content in the document.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT),=
 Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: black; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbs=
p;</span><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></body></ht=
ml>

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From andy.sago@bt.com  Mon Oct 31 09:51:25 2011
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From: <andy.sago@bt.com>
To: <scott.probasco@nokia.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:51:15 +0000
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Scott

So Ofcom has confirmed below that there could be a potential UK requirement=
, which shouldn't be shut out at this stage. As for providing a reference f=
or the US and Canadian requirements, I am hardly the best placed person on =
this reflector to comment, but my understanding is that the FCC document on=
 the Part 0 and Part 15 rules for "Unlicensed Operation in the TV Broadcast=
 Bands; Final Rule" http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.pdf s=
pecifically expects databases may perform additional functions such as "tra=
cking active channel use if reported by the TV bands device", hence the PAW=
S protocol should enable this. I reproduce below the relevant paragraph:

Additional Service Features
73. Decision. Database administrators
may perform additional functions
besides those required by the rules, such
as tracking active channel use if
reported by the TV bands device, or
sending additional information to a TV
bands device to enable it to determine
the ''best'' available channel to use. Such
functions are not prohibited by the
rules, and the ability to add additional
functionality could allow multiple
database operators to distinguish their
services and could be useful in the
development of industry standards to
enable more efficient spectrum sharing.

I'm even less of an expert on Canada, but their August consultation at http=
://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html says (p.12) "To meet =
these requirements, each white space device will need to provide data, incl=
uding its location, to a database. This data would be retained for a period=
 of time in order to provide a capability for after-the fact data audits of=
 suspected interference cases." I think that, when this requirement is full=
y unpacked, the data needing to be retained by the database for audit purpo=
ses will include actual channel frequency used. Also, they are consulting o=
n whether to move future high power Remote Rural Broadband Systems (RRBS) f=
rom the current licensed model to use of TV band devices with the geolocati=
on database (p.17, "it is anticipated that white space devices could be rea=
dily adapted for operation under the current rules for RRBS"). These would =
require protection from other TVWS devices to provide a similar service to =
existing RRBS, so in practice the actual channel in use would need to be re=
ported back to the database.

Regards

Andy


From: Andrew Gowans [mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk]
Sent: 31 October 2011 16:06
To: scott.probasco@nokia.com; Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott/All,

I can confirm that Andy Sago is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed wh=
at our final requirements may be regarding the need for a return channel as=
 a regulatory requirement or not. I would say at this stage there is no har=
m in keeping it in the document being taken forward as it seems that it wil=
l be within your guidelines if any regulator requires it in the future. I t=
ake it these elements can be treated like other requirements that may be re=
gion or country specific. I say this in the knowledge that the current prop=
osals from Ofcom will require different requirements from that of the US pr=
oposals hence there will have to a master set of requirements which will mo=
re than likely be reduced to a subset of the requirements dependent upon ea=
ch regulatory domain.

Best regards

Andy  Gowans

From: paws-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:paws-boun=
ces@ietf.org]<mailto:[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]> On Behalf Of scott.pro=
basco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Sent: 31 October 2011 15:28
To: andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep the possibility for d=
evices to update information in the database, my concern is merely to opera=
te within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada require the=
 database to know the details of some links, are you able to cite a referen=
ce? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accommodate all regulatory requ=
irements.

The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much tim=
e remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 +0000
To: Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.c=
om>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf=
.org>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case.=
.." which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and note=
 this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don't currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a database=
. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn't i=
nclude this method in the submission. As you are stating you require it, I'=
m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too - at present we don't yet have their final list of requ=
irements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in order t=
o offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unknown=
 (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am reque=
sting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling=
 the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in the Ch=
arter, viz. "the particular data exchanged between a device and a database =
might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the requi=
rements of the database operators and their governing regulations, and othe=
r factors").

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2..."

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term 'device ID' which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as 'model ID' and 'FCC ID'. This Internet D=
raft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Ca=
rlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector=
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scott<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So Ofcom has confirmed b=
elow that there could be a potential UK requirement, which shouldn&#8217;t =
be shut out at this stage. As for providing a reference for the US and Cana=
dian requirements, I am hardly the best placed person on this reflector to =
comment, but my understanding is that the FCC document on the Part 0 and Pa=
rt 15 rules for &#8220;Unlicensed Operation in the TV Broadcast Bands; Fina=
l Rule&#8221; <a href=3D"http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.=
pdf">http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.pdf</a> specifically=
 expects databases may perform additional functions such as &#8220;tracking=
 active channel use if reported by the TV bands device&#8221;, hence the PA=
WS protocol should enable this. I reproduce below the relevant paragraph: <=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Addi=
tional Service Features<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>73. Decision. Datab=
ase administrators<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>may perform additional f=
unctions<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>besides those required by the rule=
s, such<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>as tracking active channel use if<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>reported by the TV bands device, or<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'>sending additional information to a TV<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>bands device to enable it to determine<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'>the &#8216;&#8216;best&#8217;&#8217; available channel to u=
se. Such<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>functions are not prohibited by th=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>rules, and the ability to add additional<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>functionality could allow multiple<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'>database operators to distinguish their<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>services and could be useful in the<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:#1F497D'>development of industry standards to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>enable more efficient spectrum sharing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;m even less of an exper=
t on Canada, but their August consultation at <a href=3D"http://www.ic.gc.c=
a/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html">http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-g=
st.nsf/eng/sf10058.html</a> says (p.12) &#8220;To meet these requirements, =
each white space device will need to provide data, including its location, =
to a database. This data would be retained for a period of time in order to=
 provide a capability for after-the fact data audits of suspected interfere=
nce cases.&#8221; I think that, when this requirement is fully unpacked, th=
e data needing to be retained by the database for audit purposes will inclu=
de actual channel frequency used. Also, they are consulting on whether to m=
ove future high power Remote Rural Broadband Systems (RRBS) from the curren=
t licensed model to use of TV band devices with the geolocation database (p=
.17, &#8220;it is anticipated that white space devices could be readily ada=
pted for operation under the current rules for RRBS&#8221;). These would re=
quire protection from other TVWS devices to provide a similar service to ex=
isting RRBS, so in practice the actual channel in use would need to be repo=
rted back to the database.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'=
border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Andrew Gowans [mailto:Andrew.=
Gowans@ofcom.org.uk] <br><b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 16:06<br><b>To:</b> s=
cott.probasco@nokia.com; Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</=
b> RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use ca=
se<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scott/All,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
'>I can confirm that Andy Sago is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed =
what our final requirements may be regarding the need for a return channel =
as a regulatory requirement or not. I would say at this stage there is no h=
arm in keeping it in the document being taken forward as it seems that it w=
ill be within your guidelines if any regulator requires it in the future. I=
 take it these elements can be treated like other requirements that may be =
region or country specific. I say this in the knowledge that the current pr=
oposals from Ofcom will require different requirements from that of the US =
proposals hence there will have to a master set of requirements which will =
more than likely be reduced to a subset of the requirements dependent upon =
each regulatory domain. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best regards</span><=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy &nbsp;Gowans</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;b=
order-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sa=
ns-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">p=
aws-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]">=
[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:sc=
ott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b> 31 Oct=
ober 2011 15:28<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago=
@bt.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subje=
ct:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery u=
se case</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Andy,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:black'>Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep =
the possibility for devices to update information in the database, my conce=
rn is merely to operate within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC a=
nd Canada require the database to know the details of some links, are you a=
ble to cite a reference? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accommodat=
e all regulatory requirements.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:bla=
ck'>The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much=
 time remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'b=
order:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:an=
dy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@=
bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 =
+0000<br><b>To: </b>Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@no=
kia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@iet=
f.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">mi=
chael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zu=
niga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Sub=
ject: </b>RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery=
 use case</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;=
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your comments=
 on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in full agreement with you=
r position, please see my comments in-line.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-t=
op:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><=
span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-seri=
f";color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href=3D"mailto:scott.p=
robasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:scott.pr=
obasco@nokia.com">mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 25 =
October 2011 21:39<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:paws=
@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; <a href=
=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigit=
al.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revi=
sion of DB discovery use case</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:black'>Hi Andy, Mike &amp; Juan Carlos,</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif";color:black'>Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I =
have a few comments.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:bla=
ck'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>1. The=
 proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify the tex=
t and introduces the &quot;listing&quot; method from the UK. These changes =
make sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed=
 address of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and s=
hould remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove &nbsp;&quot;In the =
simplest case&#8230;&quot; which might mistakenly imply some preference to =
this solution, and note this to be an option.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><b><i><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The text in our submiss=
ion mainly addresses the UK requirements, which don&#8217;t currently antic=
ipate a fixed IP address or url for a database. Personally I feel a fixed a=
ddress would have some drawbacks so I didn&#8217;t include this method in t=
he submission. As you are stating you require it, I&#8217;m happy for it to=
 remain as an option.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>2. In the Indoor Networking use=
 case, I suggest to remove step 7 which describes updating the database wit=
h the selections made by the master device. I personally see merit in this =
capability. However, following previous discussions on this mail list, and =
after review of our Charter, I believe this step to update the database wit=
h information is not within our current scope; I am planning to remove simi=
lar steps from other use cases in the next update. The issue of scope is me=
rely my personal opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span>=
</i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and wi=
th removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it F=
CC and Canada already require the database to know the details of some link=
s (e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having =
the master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 r=
equirements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may req=
uire this facility too &#8211; at present we don&#8217;t yet have their fin=
al list of requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this faci=
lity in order to offer value added services. The operators in the UK are cu=
rrently unknown (no but my company could be a prospective database operator=
, so I am requesting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of P=
AWS (fulfilling the requirements of database operators is specifically ment=
ioned in the Charter, viz. &#8220;the particular data exchanged between a d=
evice and a database might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are =
to be used, the requirements of the database operators and their governing =
regulations, and other factors&#8221;).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>[First paragraph]</span><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&quot;In this use case, each &qu=
ot;machine&quot; includes a white space slave device and can be located any=
where, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have connectivity to the=
 internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machine communication o=
ver a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to another machine (slave=
 device), is under the control of a master device. This deployment scenario=
 is typically characterized by a master device with internet connectivity b=
y some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Figure 2&#8230;&quo=
t;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed</=
span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:black'>[Step 6]</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:black'>6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands =
to locate the master transmissions, and associate with the master device.&n=
bsp;Further signaling can take place outside &nbsp;scope of PAWS to establi=
sh direct links among those slave devices that have associated with the mas=
ter device.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nb=
sp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Agreed</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:black'>[Step 7]</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:black'>Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discu=
ssed in Indoor Networking use case.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i=
><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sag=
o] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use case.</span>=
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:black'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'>Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-t=
op:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:bla=
ck'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:black'>&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">and=
y.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@b=
t.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100<br><b>To: </b=
>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Database Device &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br><=
b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com<=
/a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.c=
om">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[paws] Ne=
w indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span><o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Scott, all</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I-=
D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requ=
irements-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-=
requirements-00.txt</a> proposes revision of the database discovery use cas=
e, two new use cases for indoor networking and machine to machine communica=
tions, and a set of requirements that drop out of all the use cases include=
d so far in the working document. These especially address the UK Ofcom req=
uirements as currently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term &=
#8216;device ID&#8217; which we suggest should be used throughout the use c=
ases and requirements for consistency in place of terms such as &#8216;mode=
l ID&#8217; and &#8216;FCC ID&#8217;. This Internet Draft is a joint submis=
sion from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigi=
tal). We would welcome comments made to the reflector on these proposals. W=
e are willing to present in Taipei if it would be helpful in providing furt=
her explanation to the content in the document.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Regards</span=
><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:black'>Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)=
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div class=3DMs=
oNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"10=
0%" align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'><br>***********************=
***************************************************************************=
****************<br>For more information visit <a href=3D"http://www.ofcom.=
org.uk">www.ofcom.org.uk</a><br><br>This email (and any attachments) is con=
fidential and intended for the use of the addressee only.<br><br>If you hav=
e received this email in error please notify the originator of the message =
and delete it from your system.<br><br>This email has been scanned for viru=
ses. However, you open any attachments at your own risk.<br><br>Any views e=
xpressed in this message are those of the individual sender and do not repr=
esent the views or opinions of Ofcom unless expressly stated otherwise.<br>=
***************************************************************************=
***************************************</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body><=
/html>=

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From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com>
To: "andy.sago@bt.com" <andy.sago@bt.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:58:14 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Some other thoughts on the use cases discussion that this trail is related =
to.  (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-r=
equirements/)
Peter S.

3.2:   indoor networking
Step 3:  In the US, and probably Canada, there is no requirement for locati=
on uncertainty so this may have to be optional or have a default value. Thi=
s impacts 4.1.7
step 7:  (radio reporting channel use to the DB) is not specified in any of=
 the regulations we are aware of so this may have to be optional. 4.1.11 se=
ems to contradict this statement.

3.3:  I can see a general concern with this Use Case from the Broadcasters.=
 In the simple Master/Slave Use Cases there is a perceived coverage area of=
 the master, based on it's power etc, which can be calculated into a buffer=
 to ensure that neither the master or the slaves will interfere with an inc=
umbent. However in the M2M case there is the implication of multi-hopping w=
hich could dramatically increase the distance of a slave from a master. Unl=
ess hopping is limited and the function of hopping is known there is no way=
 to accurately compute the likely interference from the multi hopping slave=
s.

4.1: Requirements
10: In most cases the slave does not have location capability so how is it =
going to know that it has changed location? I don't know how a master can d=
etermine it's coverage area in a way that a slave can resolve this.  I also=
 think this is irrelevant in many cases. If you consider a set of Access Po=
ints (masters) in a building a slave should be able to roam around and asso=
ciate with any, or all of the Masters without having to go through a channe=
l discovery process as all the channels it will use are validated by the ma=
sters.

4.2: Database
Most regulators include some requirement that the DB validate or authentica=
te a Device before providing it with a channel list. The FCC also requires =
that the DB be able to black list specific devices. This implies that a dev=
ice may get a "no channels available" message because it is not permitted t=
o use either the DB or TVWS. I know you cover security in 4.2, but the impl=
ication of failure is no channel list returned to the device.


From: "andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:=
andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:51:15 -0400
To: "scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>" <scott.prob=
asco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paw=
s@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

So Ofcom has confirmed below that there could be a potential UK requirement=
, which shouldn=92t be shut out at this stage. As for providing a reference=
 for the US and Canadian requirements, I am hardly the best placed person o=
n this reflector to comment, but my understanding is that the FCC document =
on the Part 0 and Part 15 rules for =93Unlicensed Operation in the TV Broad=
cast Bands; Final Rule=94 http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184=
.pdf specifically expects databases may perform additional functions such a=
s =93tracking active channel use if reported by the TV bands device=94, hen=
ce the PAWS protocol should enable this. I reproduce below the relevant par=
agraph:

Additional Service Features
73. Decision. Database administrators
may perform additional functions
besides those required by the rules, such
as tracking active channel use if
reported by the TV bands device, or
sending additional information to a TV
bands device to enable it to determine
the =91=91best=92=92 available channel to use. Such
functions are not prohibited by the
rules, and the ability to add additional
functionality could allow multiple
database operators to distinguish their
services and could be useful in the
development of industry standards to
enable more efficient spectrum sharing.

I=92m even less of an expert on Canada, but their August consultation at ht=
tp://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html says (p.12) =93To m=
eet these requirements, each white space device will need to provide data, =
including its location, to a database. This data would be retained for a pe=
riod of time in order to provide a capability for after-the fact data audit=
s of suspected interference cases.=94 I think that, when this requirement i=
s fully unpacked, the data needing to be retained by the database for audit=
 purposes will include actual channel frequency used. Also, they are consul=
ting on whether to move future high power Remote Rural Broadband Systems (R=
RBS) from the current licensed model to use of TV band devices with the geo=
location database (p.17, =93it is anticipated that white space devices coul=
d be readily adapted for operation under the current rules for RRBS=94). Th=
ese would require protection from other TVWS devices to provide a similar s=
ervice to existing RRBS, so in practice the actual channel in use would nee=
d to be reported back to the database.

Regards

Andy


From: Andrew Gowans [mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk]
Sent: 31 October 2011 16:06
To: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>; Sago,AJ,Andy=
,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott/All,

I can confirm that Andy Sago is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed wh=
at our final requirements may be regarding the need for a return channel as=
 a regulatory requirement or not. I would say at this stage there is no har=
m in keeping it in the document being taken forward as it seems that it wil=
l be within your guidelines if any regulator requires it in the future. I t=
ake it these elements can be treated like other requirements that may be re=
gion or country specific. I say this in the knowledge that the current prop=
osals from Ofcom will require different requirements from that of the US pr=
oposals hence there will have to a master set of requirements which will mo=
re than likely be reduced to a subset of the requirements dependent upon ea=
ch regulatory domain.

Best regards

Andy  Gowans

From: paws-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:paws-boun=
ces@ietf.org]<mailto:[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]> On Behalf Of scott.pro=
basco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Sent: 31 October 2011 15:28
To: andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep the possibility for d=
evices to update information in the database, my concern is merely to opera=
te within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada require the=
 database to know the details of some links, are you able to cite a referen=
ce? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accommodate all regulatory requ=
irements.

The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much tim=
e remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 +0000
To: Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.c=
om>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf=
.org>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case=
=85" which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and not=
e this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a databa=
se. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn=
=92t include this method in the submission. As you are stating you require =
it, I=92m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too =96 at present we don=92t yet have their final list of =
requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in ord=
er to offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unk=
nown (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am r=
equesting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfil=
ling the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in th=
e Charter, viz. =93the particular data exchanged between a device and a dat=
abase might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the=
 requirements of the database operators and their governing regulations, an=
d other factors=94).

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2=85"

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 wh=
ich we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for=
 consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. Thi=
s Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT)=
 and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to t=
he reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it =
would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in the doc=
ument.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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--_000_CAD44B6715FC5peterspectrumbridgecom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "=
><div style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-size: 14px; ">Some other thoughts =
on the use cases discussion that this trail is related to.&nbsp;<span class=
=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px; ">&nbsp;(</span><span class=
=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 15px; "><a href=3D"https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements/" style=
=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements/</a>)</span></div><div=
><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium=
; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; mar=
gin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">=
Peter S.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: m=
edium; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in=
; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0=
); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size=
: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1=
, 0); ">3.2: &nbsp; indoor networking&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb=
(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);=
 font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">Step 3: &nbsp;In the US, and probab=
ly Canada, there is no requirement for location uncertainty so this may hav=
e to be optional or have a default value. This impacts 4.1.7</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"col=
or: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; mar=
gin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">step 7: &nbsp;(rad=
io reporting channel use to the DB) is not specified in any of the regulati=
ons we are aware of so this may have to be optional. 4.1.11 seems to contra=
dict this statement.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; =
font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margi=
n-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color:=
 rgb(4, 1, 0); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibr=
i; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; ma=
rgin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; col=
or: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">3.3: &nbsp;I can see a general concern with this Use Ca=
se from the Broadcasters. In the simple Master/Slave Use Cases there is a p=
erceived coverage area of the master, based on it's power etc, which can be=
 calculated into a buffer to ensure that neither the master or the slaves w=
ill interfere with an incumbent. However in the M2M case there is the impli=
cation of multi-hopping which could dramatically increase the distance of a=
 slave from a master. Unless hopping is limited and the function of hopping=
 is known there is no way to accurately compute the likely interference fro=
m the multi hopping slaves.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Ca=
libri; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in=
; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt;=
 color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:=
 Calibri; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-siz=
e: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5=
pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">4.1: Requirements</span><span style=3D"color: rg=
b(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0)=
; font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span style=3D=
"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">10: In most cases the slave does=
 not have location capability so how is it going to know that it has change=
d location? I don't know how a master can determine it's coverage area in a=
 way that a slave can resolve this. &nbsp;I also think this is irrelevant i=
n many cases. If you consider a set of Access Points (masters) in a buildin=
g a slave should be able to roam around and associate with any, or all of t=
he Masters without having to go through a channel discovery process as all =
the channels it will use are validated by the masters.</span><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"color: rg=
b(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bo=
ttom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin=
-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">4.2: Database</span><=
span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=
=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium; "><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0=
in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">Most regula=
tors include some requirement that the DB validate or authenticate a Device=
 before providing it with a channel list. The FCC also requires that the DB=
 be able to black list specific devices. This implies that a device may get=
 a &quot;no channels available&quot; message because it is not permitted to=
 use either the DB or TVWS. I know you cover security in 4.2, but the impli=
cation of failure is no channel list returned to the device.</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"col=
or: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium; "><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; mar=
gin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">&nbsp;</span></p><=
/div></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-size: 14px; "><br></div>=
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-size: =
14px; "><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:12pt; text-align:left;=
 color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING=
-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1p=
t solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-w=
eight:bold">From: </span> &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sa=
go@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.co=
m</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 31 Oct 201=
1 12:51:15 -0400<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> &quot;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a=
>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"fon=
t-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, re=
vision of DB discovery use case<br></div><div><br></div><div xmlns:v=3D"urn=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=
=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; ">So Ofcom has confirmed below that there could be a potent=
ial UK requirement, which shouldn=92t be shut out at this stage. As for pro=
viding a reference for the US and Canadian requirements, I am hardly the be=
st placed person on this reflector to comment, but my understanding is that=
 the FCC document on the Part 0 and Part 15 rules for =93Unlicensed Operati=
on in the TV Broadcast Bands; Final Rule=94 <a href=3D"http://edocket.acces=
s.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.pdf">http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2=
010-30184.pdf</a> specifically expects databases may perform additional fun=
ctions such as =93tracking active channel use if reported by the TV bands d=
evice=94, hence the PAWS protocol should enable this. I reproduce below the=
 relevant paragraph: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73=
, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Additional Service Features<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">73. Decision. Database administra=
tors<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(=
31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">may perform additional fu=
nctions<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">besides those required=
 by the rules, such<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">as trackin=
g active channel use if<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">report=
ed by the TV bands device, or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">=
sending additional information to a TV<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; ">bands device to enable it to determine<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; ">the =91=91best=92=92 available channel to use. Such<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 12=
5); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">functions are not prohibited by the=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, =
73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">rules, and the ability to add=
 additional<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"colo=
r: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">functionality coul=
d allow multiple<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">database oper=
ators to distinguish their<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">ser=
vices and could be useful in the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 ">development of industry standards to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">enable more efficient spectrum sharing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Cal=
ibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I=
=92m even less of an expert on Canada, but their August consultation at <a =
href=3D"http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html">http://w=
ww.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html</a> says (p.12) =93To mee=
t these requirements, each white space device will need to provide data, in=
cluding its location, to a database. This data would be retained for a peri=
od of time in order to provide a capability for after-the fact data audits =
of suspected interference cases.=94 I think that, when this requirement is =
fully unpacked, the data needing to be retained by the database for audit p=
urposes will include actual channel frequency used. Also, they are consulti=
ng on whether to move future high power Remote Rural Broadband Systems (RRB=
S) from the current licensed model to use of TV band devices with the geolo=
cation database (p.17, =93it is anticipated that white space devices could =
be readily adapted for operation under the current rules for RRBS=94). Thes=
e would require protection from other TVWS devices to provide a similar ser=
vice to existing RRBS, so in practice the actual channel in use would need =
to be reported back to the database.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div=
><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm=
 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> Andrew G=
owans [<a href=3D"mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk">mailto:Andrew.Gowans@o=
fcom.org.uk</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 16:06<br><b>To:</b> <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>; Sago,A=
J,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subj=
ect:</b> RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; colo=
r: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott/All,</span><=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(3=
1, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I can confirm that Andy Sa=
go is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed what our final requirements =
may be regarding the need for a return channel as a regulatory requirement =
or not. I would say at this stage there is no harm in keeping it in the doc=
ument being taken forward as it seems that it will be within your guideline=
s if any regulator requires it in the future. I take it these elements can =
be treated like other requirements that may be region or country specific. =
I say this in the knowledge that the current proposals from Ofcom will requ=
ire different requirements from that of the US proposals hence there will h=
ave to a master set of requirements which will more than likely be reduced =
to a subset of the requirements dependent upon each regulatory domain. </sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Best regards</span><o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31,=
 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy &nbsp;Gowans</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:=
3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">=
 <a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a href=
=3D"mailto:[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]</=
a> <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.pr=
obasco@nokia.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 15:28<br><b>To:</b> <a=
 href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:p=
aws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor an=
d M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span><o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; ">Hi Andy,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; ">Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep the possibil=
ity for devices to update information in the database, my concern is merely=
 to operate within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada re=
quire the database to know the details of some links, are you able to cite =
a reference? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accommodate all regula=
tory requirements.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; ">The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much=
 time remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><=
o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
0.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards,</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.=
5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott</span><o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p></div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3=
.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;=
 color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From: </span></b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">=
&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: =
</b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 &#43;0000<br><b>To: </b>Database Device &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;=
, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga=
@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M =
use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Thanks for your comm=
ents on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in full agreement with=
 your position, please see my comments in-line.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regar=
ds</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31=
, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">=
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid=
 #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt=
; color: black; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> <a href=3D"mailto:scott=
.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:scott.=
probasco@nokia.com">mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 2=
5 October 2011 21:39<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:pa=
ws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDig=
ital.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, re=
vision of DB discovery use case</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Hi Andy, Mike &amp; Juan Carlos,</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.=
5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt;=
 color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Thank you for providing =
the I-D. After review I have a few comments.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">1. The proposed revision to the database disc=
overy use case does simplify the text and introduces the &quot;listing&quot=
; method from the UK. These changes make sense to me. The revision also rem=
oves the option for a pre-programmed address of a trusted database. I belie=
ve this is an important option and should remain in the I-D. A possible rem=
edy is to remove &nbsp;&quot;In the simplest case=85&quot; which might mist=
akenly imply some preference to this solution, and note this to be an optio=
n.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10=
.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</=
span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; ">[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">The text in our submiss=
ion mainly addresses the UK requirements, which don=92t currently anticipat=
e a fixed IP address or url for a database. Personally I feel a fixed addre=
ss would have some drawbacks so I didn=92t include this method in the submi=
ssion. As you are stating you require it, I=92m happy for it to remain as a=
n option.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt;=
 color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">2. In the Indoor Network=
ing use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which describes updating the datab=
ase with the selections made by the master device. I personally see merit i=
n this capability. However, following previous discussions on this mail lis=
t, and after review of our Charter, I believe this step to update the datab=
ase with information is not within our current scope; I am planning to remo=
ve similar steps from other use cases in the next update. The issue of scop=
e is merely my personal opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5=
pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I have to =
disagree, both with removing this step here and with removing similar steps=
 in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC and Canada already req=
uire the database to know the details of some links (e.g. rural broadband) =
and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the master device report =
back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requirements posted to the=
 reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may require this facility too =
=96 at present we don=92t yet have their final list of requirements. Thirdl=
y, a database operator may require this facility in order to offer value ad=
ded services. The operators in the UK are currently unknown (no but my comp=
any could be a prospective database operator, so I am requesting this facil=
ity. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling the requirement=
s of database operators is specifically mentioned in the Charter, viz. =93t=
he particular data exchanged between a device and a database might depend o=
n the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the requirements of the=
 database operators and their governing regulations, and other factors=94).=
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></i></b><o=
:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10=
.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">3. In the M2M use c=
ase, would you consider the following revisions:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[First paragraph]</span><o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: bl=
ack; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&quot;In this use case, each &quot=
;machine&quot; includes a white space slave device and can be located anywh=
ere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have connectivity to the i=
nternet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machine communication ove=
r a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to another machine (slave d=
evice), is under the control of a master device. This deployment scenario i=
s typically characterized by a master device with internet connectivity by =
some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Figure 2=85&quot;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nb=
sp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span><=
/i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Agreed</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">=
[Step 6]</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">6.=
 The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the m=
aster transmissions, and associate with the master device.&nbsp;Further sig=
naling can take place outside &nbsp;scope of PAWS to establish direct links=
 among those slave devices that have associated with the master device.</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nb=
sp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span><=
/i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Agreed</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">=
[Step 7]</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Pr=
opose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Networkin=
g use case.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy=
 Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use case.</s=
pan></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb=
(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; col=
or: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color=
: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: bla=
ck; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: bl=
ack; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From: </span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&quot;ext =
<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, =
17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 &#43;0100<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@i=
etf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;, Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@noki=
a.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigi=
tal.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, rev=
ision of DB discovery use case</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Cal=
ibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; ">Hi Scott, all</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I-D <a href=3D"=
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.t=
xt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt</a> proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new us=
e cases for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a =
set of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in t=
he working document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as =
currently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=
=92 which we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requiremen=
ts for consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=
=92. This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy S=
ago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments m=
ade to the reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipe=
i if it would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in=
 the document.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o=
:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy Sag=
o (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)</span><o:p></o:p=
></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; colo=
r: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: bla=
ck; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div class=3D"=
MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><hr size=3D"2" widt=
h=3D"100%" align=3D"center"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10pt; color: gray; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><br>**********=
***************************************************************************=
*****************************<br>For more information visit <a href=3D"http=
://www.ofcom.org.uk">www.ofcom.org.uk</a><br><br>This email (and any attach=
ments) is confidential and intended for the use of the addressee only.<br><=
br>If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of=
 the message and delete it from your system.<br><br>This email has been sca=
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r>Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender an=
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From: <andy.sago@bt.com>
To: <peter@spectrumbridge.com>, <scott.probasco@nokia.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:02:00 +0000
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Peter

Thanks, our emails crossed and I have suggested some indications from FCC a=
nd IC which might lead to this facility being needed. I think the fact that=
 US has some databases up and running and implementing the minimum FCC rule=
s shouldn't restrict the work in PAWS to develop a flexible and innovative =
protocol that is capable of addressing current and future requirements worl=
dwide. I realise that is an impossible task when regulators are mostly stil=
l in consultation mode (or not even at that point yet), but we should read =
between the lines as much as possible.

Regards

Andy

From: Peter Stanforth [mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com]
Sent: 31 October 2011 16:51
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; scott.probasco@nokia.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Andy,
In reference to 2. below,  The FCC does not have any rule  that a radio rep=
ort it's channel use to a DB. There has been no comment/concern about this =
in our TVWS database trial. I agree that it is nice to have and could be th=
e basis of value added services, but it is not explicitly required. I could=
 not find any "requirement" in the Canadian proposal either.
Regards,
Peter S.

From: "andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:=
andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:39:37 -0400
To: "scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>" <scott.prob=
asco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paw=
s@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case.=
.." which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and note=
 this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don't currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a database=
. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn't i=
nclude this method in the submission. As you are stating you require it, I'=
m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too - at present we don't yet have their final list of requ=
irements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in order t=
o offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unknown=
 (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am reque=
sting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling=
 the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in the Ch=
arter, viz. "the particular data exchanged between a device and a database =
might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the requi=
rements of the database operators and their governing regulations, and othe=
r factors").

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2..."

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term 'device ID' which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as 'model ID' and 'FCC ID'. This Internet D=
raft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Ca=
rlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector=
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks, our emails cross=
ed and I have suggested some indications from FCC and IC which might lead t=
o this facility being needed. I think the fact that US has some databases u=
p and running and implementing the minimum FCC rules shouldn&#8217;t restri=
ct the work in PAWS to develop a flexible and innovative protocol that is c=
apable of addressing current and future requirements worldwide. I realise t=
hat is an impossible task when regulators are mostly still in consultation =
mode (or not even at that point yet), but we should read between the lines =
as much as possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-seri=
f";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;p=
adding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><sp=
an lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"=
'> Peter Stanforth [mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 31 Oc=
tober 2011 16:51<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; scott.probasco@nokia.com=
; paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases,=
 revision of DB discovery use case<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>Andy,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>In reference to =
2. below, &nbsp;The FCC does not have any rule &nbsp;that a radio report it=
's channel use to a DB. There has been no comment/concern about this in our=
 TVWS database trial. I agree that it is nice to have and could be the basi=
s of value added services, but it is not explicitly required. I could not f=
ind any &quot;requirement&quot; in the Canadian proposal either.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>Peter S.<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm=
 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:black'>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@=
bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:39:37 -0400<br><b>To: </b>&quot;=
<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.co=
m</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </=
b>Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use cas=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scott</span><span style=3D'color:=
#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color=
:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your comments on our =
joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in full agreement with your positi=
on, please see my comments in-line.</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'>=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'>=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C=
4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DE=
N-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#040=
100'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#040100'> <a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@n=
okia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@no=
kia.com">mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 25 October 2=
011 21:39<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org=
">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; <a href=3D"mailt=
o:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a=
><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of D=
B discovery use case</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#040100'>&nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Andy, Mike &amp; Juan=
 Carlos,</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Thank you for provi=
ding the I-D. After review I have a few comments.</span><span style=3D'colo=
r:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp=
;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:black'>1. The proposed revision to the database discovery us=
e case does simplify the text and introduces the &quot;listing&quot; method=
 from the UK. These changes make sense to me. The revision also removes the=
 option for a pre-programmed address of a trusted database. I believe this =
is an important option and should remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is t=
o remove &nbsp;&quot;In the simplest case&#8230;&quot; which might mistaken=
ly imply some preference to this solution, and note this to be an option.</=
span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F49=
7D'>The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements, which =
don&#8217;t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a database. =
Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn&#8217=
;t include this method in the submission. As you are stating you require it=
, I&#8217;m happy for it to remain as an option.</span><span style=3D'color=
:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'colo=
r:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>2. In=
 the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which describes=
 updating the database with the selections made by the master device. I per=
sonally see merit in this capability. However, following previous discussio=
ns on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this step =
to update the database with information is not within our current scope; I =
am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next update=
. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.</span><span style=3D'co=
lor:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&=
nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have to disagree, both with remov=
ing this step here and with removing similar steps in other use cases. Firs=
tly, as I understand it FCC and Canada already require the database to know=
 the details of some links (e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement coul=
d be fulfilled by having the master device report back directly to the data=
base. The recent 802.22 requirements posted to the reflector also ask for t=
his. Secondly, UK may require this facility too &#8211; at present we don&#=
8217;t yet have their final list of requirements. Thirdly, a database opera=
tor may require this facility in order to offer value added services. The o=
perators in the UK are currently unknown (no but my company could be a pros=
pective database operator, so I am requesting this facility. This is certai=
nly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling the requirements of database opera=
tors is specifically mentioned in the Charter, viz. &#8220;the particular d=
ata exchanged between a device and a database might depend on the ranges of=
 radio spectrum that are to be used, the requirements of the database opera=
tors and their governing regulations, and other factors&#8221;).</span><spa=
n style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</sp=
an></i></b><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:black'>3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the fol=
lowing revisions:</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#04=
0100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>[First par=
agraph]</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:black'>&quot;In this use case, each &quot;machine&quot=
; includes a white space slave device and can be located anywhere, fixed or=
 on the move. Each machine needs to have connectivity to the internet and o=
r to other machines in the vicinity. Machine communication over a TVWS chan=
nel, whether to a master device or to another machine (slave device), is un=
der the control of a master device. This deployment scenario is typically c=
haracterized by a master device with internet connectivity by some connecti=
on that does not utilize TV white space. Figure 2&#8230;&quot;</span><span =
style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed</span><span style=
=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:b=
lack'>[Step 6]</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>6. The slave devices fitted to the machi=
nes scan the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and associate wit=
h the master device.&nbsp;Further signaling can take place outside &nbsp;sc=
ope of PAWS to establish direct links among those slave devices that have a=
ssociated with the master device.</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] =
</span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>[Step 7]</span><span styl=
e=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:bla=
ck'>Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Net=
working use case.</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#=
040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] Disagree, for sa=
me reasons as for the Indoor Networking use case.</span></i></b><span style=
=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:b=
lack'>Regards,</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Scott</span><span style=3D'color:#040100=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><=
span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D'bord=
er:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:andy=
.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt=
.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0=
100<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Database =
Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia=
.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">mich=
ael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuni=
ga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subje=
ct: </b>[paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use c=
ase</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Scott, all</span><span style=
=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:black'>I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use=
-cases-and-requirements-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk=
-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt</a> proposes revision of the database di=
scovery use case, two new use cases for indoor networking and machine to ma=
chine communications, and a set of requirements that drop out of all the us=
e cases included so far in the working document. These especially address t=
he UK Ofcom requirements as currently known. Also, a definition is proposed=
 for the term &#8216;device ID&#8217; which we suggest should be used throu=
ghout the use cases and requirements for consistency in place of terms such=
 as &#8216;model ID&#8217; and &#8216;FCC ID&#8217;. This Internet Draft is=
 a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zu=
niga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector on the=
se proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be helpful in=
 providing further explanation to the content in the document.</span><span =
style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</s=
pan><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Regards</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:black'>Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (=
Interdigital)</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><=
span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#=
040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></=
html>=

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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: "<andy.sago@bt.com> <andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 13:30:39 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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<as chair>
Whenever you start work, in the IETF and most standards groups, you need to=
 start with a restricted goal, or you don't get anything done when it is ne=
eded.  Sometimes, you have to deal with the fact that the simple goal isn't=
 as comprehensive as one would like, but it does get you to something faste=
r.

Our charter controls what we do, and the notion of sharing the spectrum amo=
ng secondary (WS device) users was discussed, and explicitly ruled out of s=
cope for our first charter.

That limits us.  If it limits us too much (like we can't really meet anyone=
s needs), then we can go to the IESG and request our charter to be expanded=
.  I don't believe we are at this stage.

So, for now, any mechanisms that attempt to share available spectrum among =
secondary users is OUT OF SCOPE.  We can anticipate future use and make sur=
e our protocols and data structures are extensible to meet that need, but a=
s of now, this whole subject is out of scope.

The way to get these discussions revved up again is to quickly meet our ini=
tial milestones (that is, get a database query protocol and data structures=
 finalized) and then recharter to include this additional scope.

Could we therefore please focus our attention on requirements that don't in=
clude this notion.

Brian

On Oct 31, 2011, at 1:02 PM, <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>> <a=
ndy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>> wrote:

Peter

Thanks, our emails crossed and I have suggested some indications from FCC a=
nd IC which might lead to this facility being needed. I think the fact that=
 US has some databases up and running and implementing the minimum FCC rule=
s shouldn=92t restrict the work in PAWS to develop a flexible and innovativ=
e protocol that is capable of addressing current and future requirements wo=
rldwide. I realise that is an impossible task when regulators are mostly st=
ill in consultation mode (or not even at that point yet), but we should rea=
d between the lines as much as possible.

Regards

Andy

From: Peter Stanforth [mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com]
Sent: 31 October 2011 16:51
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@noki=
a.com>; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Andy,
In reference to 2. below,  The FCC does not have any rule  that a radio rep=
ort it's channel use to a DB. There has been no comment/concern about this =
in our TVWS database trial. I agree that it is nice to have and could be th=
e basis of value added services, but it is not explicitly required. I could=
 not find any "requirement" in the Canadian proposal either.
Regards,
Peter S.

From: "andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:=
andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:39:37 -0400
To: "scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>" <scott.prob=
asco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paw=
s@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case=
=85" which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and not=
e this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a databa=
se. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn=
=92t include this method in the submission. As you are stating you require =
it, I=92m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too =96 at present we don=92t yet have their final list of =
requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in ord=
er to offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unk=
nown (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am r=
equesting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfil=
ling the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in th=
e Charter, viz. =93the particular data exchanged between a device and a dat=
abase might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the=
 requirements of the database operators and their governing regulations, an=
d other factors=94).

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2=85"

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 wh=
ich we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for=
 consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. Thi=
s Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT)=
 and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to t=
he reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it =
would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in the doc=
ument.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)




_______________________________________________
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paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


--_000_3B4900E05C01439B900AED562901211Fneustarbiz_
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<html><head><base href=3D"x-msg://4769/"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: b=
reak-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;=
 ">&lt;as chair&gt;<div>Whenever you start work, in the IETF and most stand=
ards groups, you need to start with a restricted goal, or you don't get any=
thing done when it is needed. &nbsp;Sometimes, you have to deal with the fa=
ct that the simple goal isn't as comprehensive as one would like, but it do=
es get you to something faster.</div><div><br></div><div>Our charter contro=
ls what we do, and the notion of sharing the spectrum among secondary (WS d=
evice) users was discussed, and explicitly ruled out of scope for our first=
 charter. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>That limits us. &nbsp;If it limit=
s us too much (like we can't really meet anyones needs), then we can go to =
the IESG and request our charter to be expanded. &nbsp;I don't believe we a=
re at this stage.</div><div><br></div><div>So, for now, any mechanisms that=
 attempt to share available spectrum among secondary users is OUT OF SCOPE.=
 &nbsp;We can anticipate future use and make sure our protocols and data st=
ructures are extensible to meet that need, but as of now, this whole subjec=
t is out of scope.</div><div><br></div><div>The way to get these discussion=
s revved up again is to quickly meet our initial milestones (that is, get a=
 database query protocol and data structures finalized) and then recharter =
to include this additional scope. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Could we =
therefore please focus our attention on requirements that don't include thi=
s notion.</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 31,=
 2011, at 1:02 PM, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com=
</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font=
-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align=
: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -we=
bkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none=
; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size=
: medium; "><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=
=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-siz=
e: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Peter<o:p></o:p></span><=
/div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; ma=
rgin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', ser=
if; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-=
right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; fon=
t-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Thanks, our emails crossed and I hav=
e suggested some indications from FCC and IC which might lead to this facil=
ity being needed. I think the fact that US has some databases up and runnin=
g and implementing the minimum FCC rules shouldn=92t restrict the work in P=
AWS to develop a flexible and innovative protocol that is capable of addres=
sing current and future requirements worldwide. I realise that is an imposs=
ible task when regulators are mostly still in consultation mode (or not eve=
n at that point yet), but we should read between the lines as much as possi=
ble.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0c=
m; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:=
 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"m=
argin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001p=
t; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D=
"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Regards<o:p><=
/o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-=
left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times Ne=
w Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-si=
ze: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Andy<o:p></o:p></span><=
/div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; ma=
rgin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', ser=
if; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div><div style=3D"border-right-style:=
 none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: in=
itial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rg=
b(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0=
cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm=
; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-seri=
f; "><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Peter Stanforth [ma=
ilto:peter@spectrumbridge.com]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>31=
 October 2011 16:51<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span>Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">sc=
ott.probasco@nokia.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org<=
/a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re=
: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<o:=
p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-righ=
t: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fa=
mily: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 1, 0=
); ">Andy,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm;=
 margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 1=
2pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.=
5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">In reference =
to 2. below, &nbsp;The FCC does not have any rule &nbsp;that a radio report=
 it's channel use to a DB. There has been no comment/concern about this in =
our TVWS database trial. I agree that it is nice to have and could be the b=
asis of value added services, but it is not explicitly required. I could no=
t find any "requirement" in the Canadian proposal either.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-l=
eft: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New=
 Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margi=
n-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;=
 "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; colo=
r: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">Peter S.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 1, 0=
); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"border-right-style: =
none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: ini=
tial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb=
(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0c=
m; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm;=
 margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 1=
2pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">From:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black; ">"<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com" style=3D"color: b=
lue; text-decoration: underline; ">andy.sago@bt.com</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">a=
ndy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span></b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:39:37 -0400<br><b>To:<span class=3D"Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">scott.probasco@no=
kia.com</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com" style=3D"color=
: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;, "<a=
 href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: under=
line; ">paws@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" style=3D"co=
lor: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subjec=
t:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [paws] New ind=
oor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<o:p></o:p></span><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-le=
ft: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; mar=
gin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', seri=
f; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 12=
5); ">Scott</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span><=
/div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; ma=
rgin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', ser=
if; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span=
></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', s=
erif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); ">Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I =
am not in full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line=
.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-botto=
m: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nb=
sp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><di=
v style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bot=
tom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><s=
pan style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">R=
egards</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div>=
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-=
bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "=
><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></di=
v><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margi=
n-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;=
 "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125)=
; ">Andy</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></di=
v><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margi=
n-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;=
 "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125)=
; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></=
div><div><div style=3D"border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none;=
 border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; bor=
der-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-widt=
h: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-=
left: 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left:=
 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Rom=
an', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family=
: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(4, 1, 0); "><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D=
"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: un=
derline; ">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span>[<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com" style=3D"color:=
 blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>]<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span clas=
s=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>25 October 2011 21:39<br><b>To:</b=
><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R;<spa=
n class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.=
org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">paws@ietf.org</a><=
br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Fitch,MR,Mi=
chael,DES8 R;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"=
mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decor=
ation: underline; ">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br><b>Subject:</=
b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [paws] New indoor =
and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span><span style=3D"c=
olor: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;=
 font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"c=
olor: rgb(4, 1, 0); ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">Hi Andy,=
 Mike &amp; Juan Carlos,</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p><=
/o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0=
cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family=
: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: r=
gb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-si=
ze: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size=
: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">Thank you for p=
roviding the I-D. After review I have a few comments.</span><span style=3D"=
color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;=
 font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">&nbsp;<=
/span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; mar=
gin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', seri=
f; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; co=
lor: black; ">1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case d=
oes simplify the text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. Thes=
e changes make sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-=
programmed address of a trusted database. I believe this is an important op=
tion and should remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove &nbsp;"In=
 the simplest case=85" which might mistakenly imply some preference to this=
 solution, and note this to be an option.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4=
, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-ri=
ght: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-=
family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><i><=
span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); ">[Andy Sago]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The text in our submission mainly =
addresses the UK requirements, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed I=
P address or url for a database. Personally I feel a fixed address would ha=
ve some drawbacks so I didn=92t include this method in the submission. As y=
ou are stating you require it, I=92m happy for it to remain as an option.</=
span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;=
</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; ma=
rgin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', ser=
if; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; c=
olor: black; ">2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove st=
ep 7 which describes updating the database with the selections made by the =
master device. I personally see merit in this capability. However, followin=
g previous discussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, =
I believe this step to update the database with information is not within o=
ur current scope; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use case=
s in the next update. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.</sp=
an><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin=
-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color=
: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o=
:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; mar=
gin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif; "><b><i><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Andy Sago]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span></span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I have to disagree, bot=
h with removing this step here and with removing similar steps in other use=
 cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC and Canada already require the data=
base to know the details of some links (e.g. rural broadband) and this requ=
irement could be fulfilled by having the master device report back directly=
 to the database. The recent 802.22 requirements posted to the reflector al=
so ask for this. Secondly, UK may require this facility too =96 at present =
we don=92t yet have their final list of requirements. Thirdly, a database o=
perator may require this facility in order to offer value added services. T=
he operators in the UK are currently unknown (no but my company could be a =
prospective database operator, so I am requesting this facility. This is ce=
rtainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling the requirements of database o=
perators is specifically mentioned in the Charter, viz. =93the particular d=
ata exchanged between a device and a database might depend on the ranges of=
 radio spectrum that are to be used, the requirements of the database opera=
tors and their governing regulations, and other factors=94).</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-=
top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; fon=
t-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><i><span style=3D=
"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span>=
</i></b><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; m=
argin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', se=
rif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: black; ">3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following re=
visions:</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left:=
 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Rom=
an', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><=
o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-rig=
ht: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-f=
amily: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">[First paragraph]</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0=
.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; "=
>"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and =
can be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have c=
onnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machi=
ne communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anot=
her machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This d=
eployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with inter=
net connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. F=
igure 2=85"</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-le=
ft: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb=
(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-=
right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; fon=
t-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><i><span style=3D"font-family: Cal=
ibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Andy Sago]<span class=3D"Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10=
.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Agreed</=
span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;=
</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; ma=
rgin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', ser=
if; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; c=
olor: black; ">[Step 6]</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></=
o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0c=
m; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:=
 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">6. The slave devices fitted to the ma=
chines scan the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and associate =
with the master device.&nbsp;Further signaling can take place outside &nbsp=
;scope of PAWS to establish direct links among those slave devices that hav=
e associated with the master device.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, =
0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; mar=
gin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;=
 font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D=
"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><i><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Andy=
 Sago]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i></b><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb=
(31, 73, 125); ">Agreed</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></=
o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-l=
eft: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New=
 Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p>=
</o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: =
0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-famil=
y: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">[Step 7]</span><span style=3D"color=
: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-t=
op: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font=
-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">Propose to r=
emove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Networking use case=
.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; m=
argin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', se=
rif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0);=
 "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm=
; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><i><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons a=
s for the Indoor Networking use case.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color: r=
gb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margi=
n-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; f=
ont-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-to=
p: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-=
size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">Regards,</spa=
n><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-=
bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:=
 black; ">Scott</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margi=
n-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, =
0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"border-right-style: none;=
 border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial;=
 border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181,=
 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; pa=
dding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; marg=
in-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">From:<span class=3D"Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">"ext<span class=3D"Apple-=
converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com" style=3D"=
color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">andy.sago@bt.com</a>" &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underl=
ine; ">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span></b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100<br><b>To:<span class=
=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.or=
g" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">paws@ietf.org</a>" &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; ">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
cott.probasco@nokia.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span></b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com" style=
=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;=
, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com" sty=
le=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDig=
ital.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span></b>[paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery us=
e case</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0=
cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman=
', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:=
p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; ma=
rgin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt=
; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: black; ">Hi Scott, all</span><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top=
: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-s=
ize: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span><sp=
an style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-botto=
m: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">I-D<span class=
=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/d=
raft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt" style=3D"color: blue=
; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk=
-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new=
 use cases for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and=
 a set of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far i=
n the working document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements =
as currently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device I=
D=92 which we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requireme=
nts for consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=
=92. This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy S=
ago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments m=
ade to the reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipe=
i if it would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in=
 the document.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin=
-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times N=
ew Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:=
 black; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; marg=
in-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times=
 New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; colo=
r: black; ">Regards</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p>=
</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; m=
argin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Ti=
mes New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; c=
olor: black; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:=
p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm;=
 margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: '=
Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 color: black; ">Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Inter=
digital)</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left:=
 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Rom=
an', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:=
p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right=
: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-fam=
ily: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top=
: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-s=
ize: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">&nbsp;</span><sp=
an style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-botto=
m: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;=
 ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(4, 1, 0); "><o:p></o:p></span></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div>____________________________________=
___________<br>paws mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</div></span></blo=
ckquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

--_000_3B4900E05C01439B900AED562901211Fneustarbiz_--

From andy.sago@bt.com  Mon Oct 31 11:51:48 2011
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From: <andy.sago@bt.com>
To: <peter@spectrumbridge.com>, <scott.probasco@nokia.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:51:33 +0000
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Thanks Peter, some comments inline (avoiding topics ruled out of scope by t=
he Chair):

Regards

Andy

From: Peter Stanforth [mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com]
Sent: 31 October 2011 16:58
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; scott.probasco@nokia.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Some other thoughts on the use cases discussion that this trail is related =
to.  (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-r=
equirements/)
Peter S.

3.2:   indoor networking
Step 3:  In the US, and probably Canada, there is no requirement for locati=
on uncertainty so this may have to be optional or have a default value. [An=
dy Sago] Agreed, optional would be sensible. This impacts 4.1.7
step 7:  (radio reporting channel use to the DB) is not specified in any of=
 the regulations we are aware of so this may have to be optional. 4.1.11 se=
ems to contradict this statement.

3.3:  I can see a general concern with this Use Case from the Broadcasters.=
 In the simple Master/Slave Use Cases there is a perceived coverage area of=
 the master, based on it's power etc, which can be calculated into a buffer=
 to ensure that neither the master or the slaves will interfere with an inc=
umbent. However in the M2M case there is the implication of multi-hopping w=
hich could dramatically increase the distance of a slave from a master. Unl=
ess hopping is limited and the function of hopping is known there is no way=
 to accurately compute the likely interference from the multi hopping slave=
s.
[Andy Sago] The key here is in Step 6. "The devices fitted to the machines =
scan the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and associate with th=
e master device. Further signalling can then take place to establish direct=
 links among those machines that have associated with the master device." S=
o all slave devices are within range of a master, and the master can expand=
 the location uncertainty (a method described by Ofcom for the UK case) to =
account for the area of coverage that encompasses all the slaves. Only afte=
r that, can the slaves talk slave-to-slave. It is implicit that the machine=
s (perhaps utility meters) are not going to move far. Potentially mobile de=
vices could be required to always maintain contact (listen only) with a mas=
ter device, whilst transferring data slave-to-slave, or there could be othe=
r mechanisms to detect motion. These are policy issues for the regulator an=
d not the domain of PAWS.

4.1: Requirements
10: In most cases the slave does not have location capability so how is it =
going to know that it has changed location? I don't know how a master can d=
etermine it's coverage area in a way that a slave can resolve this.  I also=
 think this is irrelevant in many cases. If you consider a set of Access Po=
ints (masters) in a building a slave should be able to roam around and asso=
ciate with any, or all of the Masters without having to go through a channe=
l discovery process as all the channels it will use are validated by the ma=
sters.[Andy Sago]  See comment to 3.3 above.

4.2: Database
Most regulators include some requirement that the DB validate or authentica=
te a Device before providing it with a channel list. The FCC also requires =
that the DB be able to black list specific devices. This implies that a dev=
ice may get a "no channels available" message because it is not permitted t=
o use either the DB or TVWS. I know you cover security in 4.2, but the impl=
ication of failure is no channel list returned to the device.[Andy Sago]  A=
greed. There might be an "Access Denied"  message. Databases might cover pa=
rticular specialisms, e.g. rural broadband, so accessing the 'wrong' databa=
se might return "Access Denied" if there is no commercial agreement to use =
that database, at which point the master tries another database from the Of=
com list.


From: "andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:=
andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:51:15 -0400
To: "scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>" <scott.prob=
asco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paw=
s@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

So Ofcom has confirmed below that there could be a potential UK requirement=
, which shouldn't be shut out at this stage. As for providing a reference f=
or the US and Canadian requirements, I am hardly the best placed person on =
this reflector to comment, but my understanding is that the FCC document on=
 the Part 0 and Part 15 rules for "Unlicensed Operation in the TV Broadcast=
 Bands; Final Rule" http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.pdf s=
pecifically expects databases may perform additional functions such as "tra=
cking active channel use if reported by the TV bands device", hence the PAW=
S protocol should enable this. I reproduce below the relevant paragraph:

Additional Service Features
73. Decision. Database administrators
may perform additional functions
besides those required by the rules, such
as tracking active channel use if
reported by the TV bands device, or
sending additional information to a TV
bands device to enable it to determine
the ''best'' available channel to use. Such
functions are not prohibited by the
rules, and the ability to add additional
functionality could allow multiple
database operators to distinguish their
services and could be useful in the
development of industry standards to
enable more efficient spectrum sharing.

I'm even less of an expert on Canada, but their August consultation at http=
://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html says (p.12) "To meet =
these requirements, each white space device will need to provide data, incl=
uding its location, to a database. This data would be retained for a period=
 of time in order to provide a capability for after-the fact data audits of=
 suspected interference cases." I think that, when this requirement is full=
y unpacked, the data needing to be retained by the database for audit purpo=
ses will include actual channel frequency used. Also, they are consulting o=
n whether to move future high power Remote Rural Broadband Systems (RRBS) f=
rom the current licensed model to use of TV band devices with the geolocati=
on database (p.17, "it is anticipated that white space devices could be rea=
dily adapted for operation under the current rules for RRBS"). These would =
require protection from other TVWS devices to provide a similar service to =
existing RRBS, so in practice the actual channel in use would need to be re=
ported back to the database.

Regards

Andy


From: Andrew Gowans [mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk]
Sent: 31 October 2011 16:06
To: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>; Sago,AJ,Andy=
,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott/All,

I can confirm that Andy Sago is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed wh=
at our final requirements may be regarding the need for a return channel as=
 a regulatory requirement or not. I would say at this stage there is no har=
m in keeping it in the document being taken forward as it seems that it wil=
l be within your guidelines if any regulator requires it in the future. I t=
ake it these elements can be treated like other requirements that may be re=
gion or country specific. I say this in the knowledge that the current prop=
osals from Ofcom will require different requirements from that of the US pr=
oposals hence there will have to a master set of requirements which will mo=
re than likely be reduced to a subset of the requirements dependent upon ea=
ch regulatory domain.

Best regards

Andy  Gowans

From: paws-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:paws-boun=
ces@ietf.org]<mailto:[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]> On Behalf Of scott.pro=
basco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Sent: 31 October 2011 15:28
To: andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep the possibility for d=
evices to update information in the database, my concern is merely to opera=
te within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada require the=
 database to know the details of some links, are you able to cite a referen=
ce? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accommodate all regulatory requ=
irements.

The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much tim=
e remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 +0000
To: Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.c=
om>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf=
.org>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case.=
.." which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and note=
 this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don't currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a database=
. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn't i=
nclude this method in the submission. As you are stating you require it, I'=
m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too - at present we don't yet have their final list of requ=
irements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in order t=
o offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unknown=
 (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am reque=
sting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling=
 the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in the Ch=
arter, viz. "the particular data exchanged between a device and a database =
might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the requi=
rements of the database operators and their governing regulations, and othe=
r factors").

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2..."

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term 'device ID' which =
we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for con=
sistency in place of terms such as 'model ID' and 'FCC ID'. This Internet D=
raft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Ca=
rlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the reflector=
 on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be hel=
pful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks Peter, some comment=
s inline (avoiding topics ruled out of scope by the Chair):<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border=
:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Taho=
ma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Peter Stanforth [mailto:peter@spect=
rumbridge.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 16:58<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ=
,Andy,COD R; scott.probasco@nokia.com; paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:=
 [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<o:p=
></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#040100'>Some other thoughts on the use cases discussi=
on that this trail is related to.&nbsp;</span><span class=3Dapple-style-spa=
n><span style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#040100'>&nbsp;(<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zuniga-pa=
ws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-z=
uniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements/</a>)</span></span><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'><o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>Peter S.</span><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>3.2: &n=
bsp; indoor networking&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:#040100'>Step 3: &nbsp;In the US, and probably Canada, the=
re is no requirement for location uncertainty so this may have to be option=
al or have a default value. </span><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] Agreed, optional would be sensib=
le. </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:#040100'>This impacts 4.1.7</span><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>step 7: &nbsp;(radio reporting ch=
annel use to the DB) is not specified in any of the regulations we are awar=
e of so this may have to be optional. 4.1.11 seems to contradict this state=
ment.</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-ser=
if";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#04010=
0'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0=
40100'>3.3: &nbsp;I can see a general concern with this Use Case from the B=
roadcasters. In the simple Master/Slave Use Cases there is a perceived cove=
rage area of the master, based on it's power etc, which can be calculated i=
nto a buffer to ensure that neither the master or the slaves will interfere=
 with an incumbent. However in the M2M case there is the implication of mul=
ti-hopping which could dramatically increase the distance of a slave from a=
 master. Unless hopping is limited and the function of hopping is known the=
re is no way to accurately compute the likely interference from the multi h=
opping slaves.</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago=
] The key here is in Step 6. &#8220;The devices fitted to the machines scan=
 the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and associate with the ma=
ster device. Further signalling can then take place to establish direct lin=
ks among those machines that have associated with the master device.&#8221;=
 So all slave devices are within range of a master, and the master can expa=
nd the location uncertainty (a method described by Ofcom for the UK case) t=
o account for the area of coverage that encompasses all the slaves. Only af=
ter that, can the slaves talk slave-to-slave. It is implicit that the machi=
nes (perhaps utility meters) are not going to move far. Potentially mobile =
devices could be required to always maintain contact (listen only) with a m=
aster device, whilst transferring data slave&#8211;to-slave, or there could=
 be other mechanisms to detect motion. These are policy issues for the regu=
lator and not the domain of PAWS.</span></i></b><span style=3D'font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#040100'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#040100'>4.1: Requirements</span><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>10: In most cases the slave does=
 not have location capability so how is it going to know that it has change=
d location? I don't know how a master can determine it's coverage area in a=
 way that a slave can resolve this. &nbsp;I also think this is irrelevant i=
n many cases. If you consider a set of Access Points (masters) in a buildin=
g a slave should be able to roam around and associate with any, or all of t=
he Masters without having to go through a channel discovery process as all =
the channels it will use are validated by the masters.</span><b><i><span st=
yle=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] &nbsp;=
See comment to 3.3 above.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#040100'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#040100'>4.2: Database</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#040100'>Most regulators include some requirement=
 that the DB validate or authenticate a Device before providing it with a c=
hannel list. The FCC also requires that the DB be able to black list specif=
ic devices. This implies that a device may get a &quot;no channels availabl=
e&quot; message because it is not permitted to use either the DB or TVWS. I=
 know you cover security in 4.2, but the implication of failure is no chann=
el list returned to the device</span><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>.[Andy Sago] &nbsp;Agreed. There might be =
an &#8220;Access Denied&#8221; &nbsp;message. Databases might cover particu=
lar specialisms, e.g. rural broadband, so accessing the &#8216;wrong&#8217;=
 database might return &#8220;Access Denied&#8221; if there is no commercia=
l agreement to use that database, at which point the master tries another d=
atabase from the Ofcom list.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#040100'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#040100'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div styl=
e=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-ser=
if";color:black'>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com=
</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:51:15 -0400<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&quot; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&=
gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: =
[paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#040100'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scott</span><span style=3D'color:#04010=
0'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#0401=
00'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So Ofcom has confirmed below that ther=
e could be a potential UK requirement, which shouldn&#8217;t be shut out at=
 this stage. As for providing a reference for the US and Canadian requireme=
nts, I am hardly the best placed person on this reflector to comment, but m=
y understanding is that the FCC document on the Part 0 and Part 15 rules fo=
r &#8220;Unlicensed Operation in the TV Broadcast Bands; Final Rule&#8221; =
<a href=3D"http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.pdf">http://ed=
ocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.pdf</a> specifically expects datab=
ases may perform additional functions such as &#8220;tracking active channe=
l use if reported by the TV bands device&#8221;, hence the PAWS protocol sh=
ould enable this. I reproduce below the relevant paragraph: </span><span st=
yle=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Additional Service =
Features</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>73. Decision. Database administrators</span><span style=3D'color:#040100=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>may perform additional functions</span><=
span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>besides those=
 required by the rules, such</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>as tracking active channel use if</span><span style=
=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>reported by the TV ba=
nds device, or</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'>sending additional information to a TV</span><span style=3D'color:=
#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>bands device to enable it to dete=
rmine</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=
the &#8216;&#8216;best&#8217;&#8217; available channel to use. Such</span><=
span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>functions are=
 not prohibited by the</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'>rules, and the ability to add additional</span><span style=
=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>functionality could a=
llow multiple</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>database operators to distinguish their</span><span style=3D'color:=
#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>services and could be useful in t=
he</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>dev=
elopment of industry standards to</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>enable more efficient spectrum sharing.</span><=
span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;m ev=
en less of an expert on Canada, but their August consultation at <a href=3D=
"http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html">http://www.ic.g=
c.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html</a> says (p.12) &#8220;To meet t=
hese requirements, each white space device will need to provide data, inclu=
ding its location, to a database. This data would be retained for a period =
of time in order to provide a capability for after-the fact data audits of =
suspected interference cases.&#8221; I think that, when this requirement is=
 fully unpacked, the data needing to be retained by the database for audit =
purposes will include actual channel frequency used. Also, they are consult=
ing on whether to move future high power Remote Rural Broadband Systems (RR=
BS) from the current licensed model to use of TV band devices with the geol=
ocation database (p.17, &#8220;it is anticipated that white space devices c=
ould be readily adapted for operation under the current rules for RRBS&#822=
1;). These would require protection from other TVWS devices to provide a si=
milar service to existing RRBS, so in practice the actual channel in use wo=
uld need to be reported back to the database.</span><span style=3D'color:#0=
40100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#=
040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><span style=3D'color=
:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'colo=
r:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Andy</span><span style=3D'color=
:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'colo=
r:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'col=
or:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top=
:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><sp=
an lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"=
;color:#040100'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#040100'> Andrew Gowans [<a href=
=3D"mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk">mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk</a=
>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 16:06<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:s=
cott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>; Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; =
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [=
paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span=
><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#040100'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scott/All,</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I ca=
n confirm that Andy Sago is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed what o=
ur final requirements may be regarding the need for a return channel as a r=
egulatory requirement or not. I would say at this stage there is no harm in=
 keeping it in the document being taken forward as it seems that it will be=
 within your guidelines if any regulator requires it in the future. I take =
it these elements can be treated like other requirements that may be region=
 or country specific. I say this in the knowledge that the current proposal=
s from Ofcom will require different requirements from that of the US propos=
als hence there will have to a master set of requirements which will more t=
han likely be reduced to a subset of the requirements dependent upon each r=
egulatory domain. </span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best regards</span><span st=
yle=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nb=
sp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>Andy &nbsp;Gowans</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'col=
or:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top=
:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><sp=
an lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"=
;color:#040100'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#040100'> <a href=3D"mailto:paws-=
bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:paws-=
bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b><=
a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a><br>=
<b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 15:28<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:andy.sag=
o@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.=
org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revisio=
n of DB discovery use case</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#040100'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Andy,</span><sp=
an style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Thank you for your reply. As said, I =
do favor to keep the possibility for devices to update information in the d=
atabase, my concern is merely to operate within our guidelines. You mention=
 below that FCC and Canada require the database to know the details of some=
 links, are you able to cite a reference? My personal opinion is that PAWS =
should accommodate all regulatory requirements.</span><span style=3D'color:=
#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;=
</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:black'>The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfor=
tunately not much time remains to include discussions from the email list i=
n this draft.</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Regards,</span=
><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:black'>Scott</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:=
#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span=
 style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:black'>&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sa=
go@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.co=
m</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 +0000<br><b>To: </b>Dat=
abase Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco=
@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a=
>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc=
: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&=
gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">=
JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [paws] Ne=
w indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'>Scott</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","san=
s-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. =
Unfortunately I am not in full agreement with your position, please see my =
comments in-line.</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:#1F497D'>Regards</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'>Andy</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span=
></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:=
3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b=
><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-se=
rif";color:black'> <a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probas=
co@nokia.com</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">mailto:scott.=
probasco@nokia.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 25 October 2011 21:39<br><b>To:</b=
> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br=
><b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@In=
terDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> R=
e: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</=
span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'colo=
r:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Andy, Mi=
ke &amp; Juan Carlos,</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color=
:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Thank =
you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.</span><span =
style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>1. The proposed revision to the database=
 discovery use case does simplify the text and introduces the &quot;listing=
&quot; method from the UK. These changes make sense to me. The revision als=
o removes the option for a pre-programmed address of a trusted database. I =
believe this is an important option and should remain in the I-D. A possibl=
e remedy is to remove &nbsp;&quot;In the simplest case&#8230;&quot; which m=
ight mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and note this to be=
 an option.</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </spa=
n></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'>The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK require=
ments, which don&#8217;t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for=
 a database. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so=
 I didn&#8217;t include this method in the submission. As you are stating y=
ou require it, I&#8217;m happy for it to remain as an option.</span><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:black'>2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 wh=
ich describes updating the database with the selections made by the master =
device. I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previ=
ous discussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I belie=
ve this step to update the database with information is not within our curr=
ent scope; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in th=
e next update. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.</span><spa=
n style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-ser=
if";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have to disagree, bo=
th with removing this step here and with removing similar steps in other us=
e cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC and Canada already require the dat=
abase to know the details of some links (e.g. rural broadband) and this req=
uirement could be fulfilled by having the master device report back directl=
y to the database. The recent 802.22 requirements posted to the reflector a=
lso ask for this. Secondly, UK may require this facility too &#8211; at pre=
sent we don&#8217;t yet have their final list of requirements. Thirdly, a d=
atabase operator may require this facility in order to offer value added se=
rvices. The operators in the UK are currently unknown (no but my company co=
uld be a prospective database operator, so I am requesting this facility. T=
his is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfilling the requirements of d=
atabase operators is specifically mentioned in the Charter, viz. &#8220;the=
 particular data exchanged between a device and a database might depend on =
the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the requirements of the d=
atabase operators and their governing regulations, and other factors&#8221;=
).</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span></i></b><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>3. In the M2M use case, would you con=
sider the following revisions:</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'>[First paragraph]</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&quot;In this use case, each &quot=
;machine&quot; includes a white space slave device and can be located anywh=
ere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have connectivity to the i=
nternet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machine communication ove=
r a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to another machine (slave d=
evice), is under the control of a master device. This deployment scenario i=
s typically characterized by a master device with internet connectivity by =
some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Figure 2&#8230;&quot;=
</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed</spa=
n><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</sp=
an><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'>[Step 6]</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>6. The slave devices fitted =
to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and a=
ssociate with the master device.&nbsp;Further signaling can take place outs=
ide &nbsp;scope of PAWS to establish direct links among those slave devices=
 that have associated with the master device.</span><span style=3D'color:#0=
40100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<=
/span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><b><i><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=
[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed</span><span style=3D'color:#040100=
'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#04010=
0'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>[Step 7]</spa=
n><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'>Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed=
 in Indoor Networking use case.</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Andy Sago] Di=
sagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use case.</span></i><=
/b><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</s=
pan><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'>Regards,</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Scott</span><span style=3D'c=
olor:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&n=
bsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div s=
tyle=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0c=
m'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&quot;ext <a href=3D"=
mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:a=
ndy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 =
09:49:34 +0100<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ie=
tf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
, Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.pro=
basco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@b=
t.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<=
br><b>Subject: </b>[paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB disc=
overy use case</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#04010=
0'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi Scott, all</span>=
<span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:black'>I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-=
paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zun=
iga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-00.txt</a> proposes revision of the =
database discovery use case, two new use cases for indoor networking and ma=
chine to machine communications, and a set of requirements that drop out of=
 all the use cases included so far in the working document. These especiall=
y address the UK Ofcom requirements as currently known. Also, a definition =
is proposed for the term &#8216;device ID&#8217; which we suggest should be=
 used throughout the use cases and requirements for consistency in place of=
 terms such as &#8216;model ID&#8217; and &#8216;FCC ID&#8217;. This Intern=
et Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Jua=
n Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to the refle=
ctor on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it would be=
 helpful in providing further explanation to the content in the document.</=
span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black=
'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:black'>Regards</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:black'>Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carl=
os Zuniga (Interdigital)</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'co=
lor:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nb=
sp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D'color:#040100'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#040100'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><sp=
an style=3D'color:#040100'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></spa=
n></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"A=
rial","sans-serif";color:gray'><br>****************************************=
**************************************************************************<=
br>For more information visit <a href=3D"http://www.ofcom.org.uk">www.ofcom=
.org.uk</a><br><br>This email (and any attachments) is confidential and int=
ended for the use of the addressee only.<br><br>If you have received this e=
mail in error please notify the originator of the message and delete it fro=
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From peter@spectrumbridge.com  Mon Oct 31 12:57:10 2011
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From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com>
To: "andy.sago@bt.com" <andy.sago@bt.com>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com" <scott.probasco@nokia.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 15:57:05 -0400
Thread-Topic: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case
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Andy,
I understand your P2P use case (3.3) better now and your explanation deals =
with my concern. I have to think a little longer on the slave roaming aroun=
d a cluster of masters (4.1) as it relates to slaves knowing, or needing to=
 know, their location.
Peter S.

From: "andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:=
andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:51:33 -0400
To: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.c=
om>>, "scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>" <scott.pr=
obasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:p=
aws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Thanks Peter, some comments inline (avoiding topics ruled out of scope by t=
he Chair):

Regards

Andy

From: Peter Stanforth [mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com]
Sent: 31 October 2011 16:58
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@noki=
a.com>; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Some other thoughts on the use cases discussion that this trail is related =
to.  (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-r=
equirements/)
Peter S.

3.2:   indoor networking
Step 3:  In the US, and probably Canada, there is no requirement for locati=
on uncertainty so this may have to be optional or have a default value. [An=
dy Sago] Agreed, optional would be sensible. This impacts 4.1.7
step 7:  (radio reporting channel use to the DB) is not specified in any of=
 the regulations we are aware of so this may have to be optional. 4.1.11 se=
ems to contradict this statement.

3.3:  I can see a general concern with this Use Case from the Broadcasters.=
 In the simple Master/Slave Use Cases there is a perceived coverage area of=
 the master, based on it's power etc, which can be calculated into a buffer=
 to ensure that neither the master or the slaves will interfere with an inc=
umbent. However in the M2M case there is the implication of multi-hopping w=
hich could dramatically increase the distance of a slave from a master. Unl=
ess hopping is limited and the function of hopping is known there is no way=
 to accurately compute the likely interference from the multi hopping slave=
s.
[Andy Sago] The key here is in Step 6. =93The devices fitted to the machine=
s scan the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and associate with =
the master device. Further signalling can then take place to establish dire=
ct links among those machines that have associated with the master device.=
=94 So all slave devices are within range of a master, and the master can e=
xpand the location uncertainty (a method described by Ofcom for the UK case=
) to account for the area of coverage that encompasses all the slaves. Only=
 after that, can the slaves talk slave-to-slave. It is implicit that the ma=
chines (perhaps utility meters) are not going to move far. Potentially mobi=
le devices could be required to always maintain contact (listen only) with =
a master device, whilst transferring data slave=96to-slave, or there could =
be other mechanisms to detect motion. These are policy issues for the regul=
ator and not the domain of PAWS.

4.1: Requirements
10: In most cases the slave does not have location capability so how is it =
going to know that it has changed location? I don't know how a master can d=
etermine it's coverage area in a way that a slave can resolve this.  I also=
 think this is irrelevant in many cases. If you consider a set of Access Po=
ints (masters) in a building a slave should be able to roam around and asso=
ciate with any, or all of the Masters without having to go through a channe=
l discovery process as all the channels it will use are validated by the ma=
sters.[Andy Sago]  See comment to 3.3 above.

4.2: Database
Most regulators include some requirement that the DB validate or authentica=
te a Device before providing it with a channel list. The FCC also requires =
that the DB be able to black list specific devices. This implies that a dev=
ice may get a "no channels available" message because it is not permitted t=
o use either the DB or TVWS. I know you cover security in 4.2, but the impl=
ication of failure is no channel list returned to the device.[Andy Sago]  A=
greed. There might be an =93Access Denied=94  message. Databases might cove=
r particular specialisms, e.g. rural broadband, so accessing the =91wrong=
=92 database might return =93Access Denied=94 if there is no commercial agr=
eement to use that database, at which point the master tries another databa=
se from the Ofcom list.


From: "andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:=
andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:51:15 -0400
To: "scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>" <scott.prob=
asco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paw=
s@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

So Ofcom has confirmed below that there could be a potential UK requirement=
, which shouldn=92t be shut out at this stage. As for providing a reference=
 for the US and Canadian requirements, I am hardly the best placed person o=
n this reflector to comment, but my understanding is that the FCC document =
on the Part 0 and Part 15 rules for =93Unlicensed Operation in the TV Broad=
cast Bands; Final Rule=94 http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184=
.pdf specifically expects databases may perform additional functions such a=
s =93tracking active channel use if reported by the TV bands device=94, hen=
ce the PAWS protocol should enable this. I reproduce below the relevant par=
agraph:

Additional Service Features
73. Decision. Database administrators
may perform additional functions
besides those required by the rules, such
as tracking active channel use if
reported by the TV bands device, or
sending additional information to a TV
bands device to enable it to determine
the =91=91best=92=92 available channel to use. Such
functions are not prohibited by the
rules, and the ability to add additional
functionality could allow multiple
database operators to distinguish their
services and could be useful in the
development of industry standards to
enable more efficient spectrum sharing.

I=92m even less of an expert on Canada, but their August consultation at ht=
tp://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html says (p.12) =93To m=
eet these requirements, each white space device will need to provide data, =
including its location, to a database. This data would be retained for a pe=
riod of time in order to provide a capability for after-the fact data audit=
s of suspected interference cases.=94 I think that, when this requirement i=
s fully unpacked, the data needing to be retained by the database for audit=
 purposes will include actual channel frequency used. Also, they are consul=
ting on whether to move future high power Remote Rural Broadband Systems (R=
RBS) from the current licensed model to use of TV band devices with the geo=
location database (p.17, =93it is anticipated that white space devices coul=
d be readily adapted for operation under the current rules for RRBS=94). Th=
ese would require protection from other TVWS devices to provide a similar s=
ervice to existing RRBS, so in practice the actual channel in use would nee=
d to be reported back to the database.

Regards

Andy


From: Andrew Gowans [mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk]
Sent: 31 October 2011 16:06
To: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>; Sago,AJ,Andy=
,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott/All,

I can confirm that Andy Sago is correct in that Ofcom have not confirmed wh=
at our final requirements may be regarding the need for a return channel as=
 a regulatory requirement or not. I would say at this stage there is no har=
m in keeping it in the document being taken forward as it seems that it wil=
l be within your guidelines if any regulator requires it in the future. I t=
ake it these elements can be treated like other requirements that may be re=
gion or country specific. I say this in the knowledge that the current prop=
osals from Ofcom will require different requirements from that of the US pr=
oposals hence there will have to a master set of requirements which will mo=
re than likely be reduced to a subset of the requirements dependent upon ea=
ch regulatory domain.

Best regards

Andy  Gowans

From: paws-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:paws-boun=
ces@ietf.org]<mailto:[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]> On Behalf Of scott.pro=
basco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com>
Sent: 31 October 2011 15:28
To: andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to keep the possibility for d=
evices to update information in the database, my concern is merely to opera=
te within our guidelines. You mention below that FCC and Canada require the=
 database to know the details of some links, are you able to cite a referen=
ce? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accommodate all regulatory requ=
irements.

The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortunately not much tim=
e remains to include discussions from the email list in this draft.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:39:37 +0000
To: Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.c=
om>>, "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf=
.org>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Scott

Thanks for your comments on our joint submission. Unfortunately I am not in=
 full agreement with your position, please see my comments in-line.

Regards

Andy

From: scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com> [mailto:sco=
tt.probasco@nokia.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 21:39
To: Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Cc: Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:Juan=
Carlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>
Subject: Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery =
use case

Hi Andy, Mike & Juan Carlos,

Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a few comments.

1. The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify t=
he text and introduces the "listing" method from the UK. These changes make=
 sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-programmed add=
ress of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option and shoul=
d remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove  "In the simplest case=
=85" which might mistakenly imply some preference to this solution, and not=
e this to be an option.

[Andy Sago] The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requirements=
, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a databa=
se. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I didn=
=92t include this method in the submission. As you are stating you require =
it, I=92m happy for it to remain as an option.

2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove step 7 which desc=
ribes updating the database with the selections made by the master device. =
I personally see merit in this capability. However, following previous disc=
ussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter, I believe this =
step to update the database with information is not within our current scop=
e; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use cases in the next u=
pdate. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.

[Andy Sago] I have to disagree, both with removing this step here and with =
removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I understand it FCC =
and Canada already require the database to know the details of some links (=
e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfilled by having the=
 master device report back directly to the database. The recent 802.22 requ=
irements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondly, UK may requir=
e this facility too =96 at present we don=92t yet have their final list of =
requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this facility in ord=
er to offer value added services. The operators in the UK are currently unk=
nown (no but my company could be a prospective database operator, so I am r=
equesting this facility. This is certainly within the scope of PAWS (fulfil=
ling the requirements of database operators is specifically mentioned in th=
e Charter, viz. =93the particular data exchanged between a device and a dat=
abase might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are to be used, the=
 requirements of the database operators and their governing regulations, an=
d other factors=94).

3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following revisions:

[First paragraph]
"In this use case, each "machine" includes a white space slave device and c=
an be located anywhere, fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have co=
nnectivity to the internet and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machin=
e communication over a TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to anoth=
er machine (slave device), is under the control of a master device. This de=
ployment scenario is typically characterized by a master device with intern=
et connectivity by some connection that does not utilize TV white space. Fi=
gure 2=85"

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 6]
6. The slave devices fitted to the machines scan the TV bands to locate the=
 master transmissions, and associate with the master device. Further signal=
ing can take place outside  scope of PAWS to establish direct links among t=
hose slave devices that have associated with the master device.

[Andy Sago] Agreed

[Step 7]
Propose to remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Network=
ing use case.

[Andy Sago] Disagree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use cas=
e.

Regards,
Scott

From: "ext andy.sago@bt.com<mailto:andy.sago@bt.com>" <andy.sago@bt.com<mai=
lto:andy.sago@bt.com>>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 +0100
To: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>, Database Device <scott.probasco@nokia.com<mailto:scott.probasco@nokia=
.com>>
Cc: <michael.fitch@bt.com<mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com>>, Juan Zuniga <JuanC=
arlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com<mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com>>
Subject: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use =
case

Hi Scott, all

I-D http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements-=
00.txt proposes revision of the database discovery use case, two new use ca=
ses for indoor networking and machine to machine communications, and a set =
of requirements that drop out of all the use cases included so far in the w=
orking document. These especially address the UK Ofcom requirements as curr=
ently known. Also, a definition is proposed for the term =91device ID=92 wh=
ich we suggest should be used throughout the use cases and requirements for=
 consistency in place of terms such as =91model ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. Thi=
s Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mike Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT)=
 and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We would welcome comments made to t=
he reflector on these proposals. We are willing to present in Taipei if it =
would be helpful in providing further explanation to the content in the doc=
ument.

Regards

Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital)





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 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div>Andy,</div><div>I understand yo=
ur P2P use case (3.3) better now and your explanation deals with my concern=
. I have to think a little longer on the slave roaming around a cluster of =
masters (4.1) as it relates to slaves knowing, or needing to know, their lo=
cation.</div><div>Peter S.</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SEC=
TION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:12pt; text-align:left; c=
olor:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-B=
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solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-wei=
ght:bold">From: </span> &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago=
@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com<=
/a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Mon, 31 Oct 2011 =
14:51:33 -0400<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Peter Stanfo=
rth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.co=
m</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco=
@nokia.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.=
probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> RE: [paws] New indoor =
and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<br></div><div><br></di=
v><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-mic=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=
=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Thanks Pet=
er, some comments inline (avoiding topics ruled out of scope by the Chair):=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, =
73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D"=
border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fa=
mily: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> Peter Stanforth [<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 16:58<br><b>To:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a=
 href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paw=
s] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0)=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Some other thoughts on the use cases =
discussion that this trail is related to.&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-=
style-span"><span style=3D"font-size: 11.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;(<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements/">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-cases-and-requirements/</a>)</span></s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Cal=
ibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif; ">Peter S.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color:=
 black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1,=
 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt;=
 color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">3.2: &nbsp; indoo=
r networking&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Step 3: &nbsp;In the US, and probably Canada=
, there is no requirement for location uncertainty so this may have to be o=
ptional or have a default value. </span><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31,=
 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] Agreed, optional=
 would be sensible. </span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color:=
 rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">This impacts 4.1.7</span=
><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f; ">step 7: &nbsp;(radio reporting channel use to the DB) is not specified=
 in any of the regulations we are aware of so this may have to be optional.=
 4.1.11 seems to contradict this statement.</span><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; col=
or: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">3.3:=
 &nbsp;I can see a general concern with this Use Case from the Broadcasters=
. In the simple Master/Slave Use Cases there is a perceived coverage area o=
f the master, based on it's power etc, which can be calculated into a buffe=
r to ensure that neither the master or the slaves will interfere with an in=
cumbent. However in the M2M case there is the implication of multi-hopping =
which could dramatically increase the distance of a slave from a master. Un=
less hopping is limited and the function of hopping is known there is no wa=
y to accurately compute the likely interference from the multi hopping slav=
es.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span=
 style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[And=
y Sago] The key here is in Step 6. =93The devices fitted to the machines sc=
an the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and associate with the =
master device. Further signalling can then take place to establish direct l=
inks among those machines that have associated with the master device.=94 S=
o all slave devices are within range of a master, and the master can expand=
 the location uncertainty (a method described by Ofcom for the UK case) to =
account for the area of coverage that encompasses all the slaves. Only afte=
r that, can the slaves talk slave-to-slave. It is implicit that the machine=
s (perhaps utility meters) are not going to move far. Potentially mobile de=
vices could be required to always maintain contact (listen only) with a mas=
ter device, whilst transferring data slave=96to-slave, or there could be ot=
her mechanisms to detect motion. These are policy issues for the regulator =
and not the domain of PAWS.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, =
0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">4.1: Requirements<=
/span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">10: In most cases the slave does not have location capability so =
how is it going to know that it has changed location? I don't know how a ma=
ster can determine it's coverage area in a way that a slave can resolve thi=
s. &nbsp;I also think this is irrelevant in many cases. If you consider a s=
et of Access Points (masters) in a building a slave should be able to roam =
around and associate with any, or all of the Masters without having to go t=
hrough a channel discovery process as all the channels it will use are vali=
dated by the masters.</span><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] &nbsp;See comment to 3.3 abo=
ve.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; ">4.2: Database</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt=
; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: r=
gb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Most regulators include so=
me requirement that the DB validate or authenticate a Device before providi=
ng it with a channel list. The FCC also requires that the DB be able to bla=
ck list specific devices. This implies that a device may get a &quot;no cha=
nnels available&quot; message because it is not permitted to use either the=
 DB or TVWS. I know you cover security in 4.2, but the implication of failu=
re is no channel list returned to the device</span><b><i><span style=3D"col=
or: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">.[Andy Sago] &nbs=
p;Agreed. There might be an =93Access Denied=94 &nbsp;message. Databases mi=
ght cover particular specialisms, e.g. rural broadband, so accessing the =
=91wrong=92 database might return =93Access Denied=94 if there is no commer=
cial agreement to use that database, at which point the master tries anothe=
r database from the Ofcom list.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt=
; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p></div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;=
padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color: =
black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From: </span></b><span style=3D"=
color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:a=
ndy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago=
@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:51:15=
 -0400<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scot=
t.probasco@nokia.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.c=
om">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org=
">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revis=
ion of DB discovery use case<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; ">Scott</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 7=
3, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">So Ofcom has confirmed below t=
hat there could be a potential UK requirement, which shouldn=92t be shut ou=
t at this stage. As for providing a reference for the US and Canadian requi=
rements, I am hardly the best placed person on this reflector to comment, b=
ut my understanding is that the FCC document on the Part 0 and Part 15 rule=
s for =93Unlicensed Operation in the TV Broadcast Bands; Final Rule=94 <a h=
ref=3D"http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.pdf">http://edocke=
t.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-30184.pdf</a> specifically expects databases=
 may perform additional functions such as =93tracking active channel use if=
 reported by the TV bands device=94, hence the PAWS protocol should enable =
this. I reproduce below the relevant paragraph: </span><span style=3D"color=
:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color=
: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Addit=
ional Service Features</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">73. Decision. Database administrators</span><=
span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">=
may perform additional functions</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 12=
5); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">besides those required by the rules=
, such</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">as tracking active channel use if</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"colo=
r: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">reported by the TV=
 bands device, or</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; ">sending additional information to a TV</span><span=
 style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">band=
s device to enable it to determine</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">the =91=91best=92=92 available ch=
annel to use. Such</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; ">functions are not prohibited by the</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">rules,=
 and the ability to add additional</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">functionality could allow multipl=
e</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; ">database operators to distinguish their</span><span style=3D"color=
:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color=
: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">services and could =
be useful in the</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; ">development of industry standards to</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">enable =
more efficient spectrum sharing.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 12=
5); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#=
040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I=92m even less of an=
 expert on Canada, but their August consultation at <a href=3D"http://www.i=
c.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html">http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site=
/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf10058.html</a> says (p.12) =93To meet these requirements=
, each white space device will need to provide data, including its location=
, to a database. This data would be retained for a period of time in order =
to provide a capability for after-the fact data audits of suspected interfe=
rence cases.=94 I think that, when this requirement is fully unpacked, the =
data needing to be retained by the database for audit purposes will include=
 actual channel frequency used. Also, they are consulting on whether to mov=
e future high power Remote Rural Broadband Systems (RRBS) from the current =
licensed model to use of TV band devices with the geolocation database (p.1=
7, =93it is anticipated that white space devices could be readily adapted f=
or operation under the current rules for RRBS=94). These would require prot=
ection from other TVWS devices to provide a similar service to existing RRB=
S, so in practice the actual channel in use would need to be reported back =
to the database.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125)=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards</span><span style=3D"color:#0=
40100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;paddi=
ng:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; =
">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb=
(4, 1, 0); font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "> Andrew Gowans [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk">mailto:Andrew.Gowans@ofcom.org.uk</a>] <br=
><b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 16:06<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:scott.p=
robasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>; Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [paws] =
New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span><span=
 style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"color:#040100">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott/All,</span><span style=3D"color:#=
040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbs=
p;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I can confirm that Andy Sago is correct in that =
Ofcom have not confirmed what our final requirements may be regarding the n=
eed for a return channel as a regulatory requirement or not. I would say at=
 this stage there is no harm in keeping it in the document being taken forw=
ard as it seems that it will be within your guidelines if any regulator req=
uires it in the future. I take it these elements can be treated like other =
requirements that may be region or country specific. I say this in the know=
ledge that the current proposals from Ofcom will require different requirem=
ents from that of the US proposals hence there will have to a master set of=
 requirements which will more than likely be reduced to a subset of the req=
uirements dependent upon each regulatory domain. </span><span style=3D"colo=
r:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&=
nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Best regards</span><span style=3D"color:#0401=
00"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; ">Andy &nbsp;Gowans</span><span style=3D"color:#040100=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11=
pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D"b=
order:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: r=
gb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(4, 1, 0); font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif; "> <a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a> <a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:paws-b=
ounces@ietf.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@n=
okia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b> 31 October 2011 15:2=
8<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>; <=
a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [p=
aws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span>=
<span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#040100">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Hi Andy,</span><span style=3D"color:#040100=
"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Thank you for your reply. As said, I do favor to k=
eep the possibility for devices to update information in the database, my c=
oncern is merely to operate within our guidelines. You mention below that F=
CC and Canada require the database to know the details of some links, are y=
ou able to cite a reference? My personal opinion is that PAWS should accomm=
odate all regulatory requirements.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><=
span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; ">The updated I-D must be uploaded in a few hours, unfortu=
nately not much time remains to include discussions from the email list in =
this draft.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#04=
0100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Re=
gards,</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Scott</span><span style=3D"color:#040100">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"=
border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt=
; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&quot;ext <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and=
y.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14=
:39:37 &#43;0000<br><b>To: </b>Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scott.=
probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mail=
to:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch=
@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&gt;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ju=
anCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt=
;<br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of D=
B discovery use case</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; col=
or: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"=
color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
">Scott</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Thanks for your comments on our joint submiss=
ion. Unfortunately I am not in full agreement with your position, please se=
e my comments in-line.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73=
, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">An=
dy</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-=
size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></=
b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family:=
 Tahoma, sans-serif; "> <a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.p=
robasco@nokia.com</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">mailto:s=
cott.probasco@nokia.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> 25 October 2011 21:39<br><b>T=
o:</b> Sago,AJ,Andy,COD R; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</=
a><br><b>Cc:</b> Fitch,MR,Michael,DES8 R; <a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuni=
ga@InterDigital.com">JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a><br><b>Subject:<=
/b> Re: [paws] New indoor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use c=
ase</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 ">Hi Andy, Mike &amp; Juan Carlos,</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span>=
<span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Cal=
ibri, sans-serif; ">Thank you for providing the I-D. After review I have a =
few comments.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: bla=
ck; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#=
040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">1.=
 The proposed revision to the database discovery use case does simplify the=
 text and introduces the &quot;listing&quot; method from the UK. These chan=
ges make sense to me. The revision also removes the option for a pre-progra=
mmed address of a trusted database. I believe this is an important option a=
nd should remain in the I-D. A possible remedy is to remove &nbsp;&quot;In =
the simplest case=85&quot; which might mistakenly imply some preference to =
this solution, and note this to be an option.</span><span style=3D"color:#0=
40100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nb=
sp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31,=
 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><=
span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; ">The text in our submission mainly addresses the UK requi=
rements, which don=92t currently anticipate a fixed IP address or url for a=
 database. Personally I feel a fixed address would have some drawbacks so I=
 didn=92t include this method in the submission. As you are stating you req=
uire it, I=92m happy for it to remain as an option.</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibr=
i, sans-serif; ">2. In the Indoor Networking use case, I suggest to remove =
step 7 which describes updating the database with the selections made by th=
e master device. I personally see merit in this capability. However, follow=
ing previous discussions on this mail list, and after review of our Charter=
, I believe this step to update the database with information is not within=
 our current scope; I am planning to remove similar steps from other use ca=
ses in the next update. The issue of scope is merely my personal opinion.</=
span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#0401=
00"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color=
: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span>=
</i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I have to disagree, both with removing this ste=
p here and with removing similar steps in other use cases. Firstly, as I un=
derstand it FCC and Canada already require the database to know the details=
 of some links (e.g. rural broadband) and this requirement could be fulfill=
ed by having the master device report back directly to the database. The re=
cent 802.22 requirements posted to the reflector also ask for this. Secondl=
y, UK may require this facility too =96 at present we don=92t yet have thei=
r final list of requirements. Thirdly, a database operator may require this=
 facility in order to offer value added services. The operators in the UK a=
re currently unknown (no but my company could be a prospective database ope=
rator, so I am requesting this facility. This is certainly within the scope=
 of PAWS (fulfilling the requirements of database operators is specifically=
 mentioned in the Charter, viz. =93the particular data exchanged between a =
device and a database might depend on the ranges of radio spectrum that are=
 to be used, the requirements of the database operators and their governing=
 regulations, and other factors=94).</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(=
31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></i></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; ">3. In the M2M use case, would you consider the following re=
visions:</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#04010=
0"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[First =
paragraph]</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&quot;In this use case, each &quot;mac=
hine&quot; includes a white space slave device and can be located anywhere,=
 fixed or on the move. Each machine needs to have connectivity to the inter=
net and or to other machines in the vicinity. Machine communication over a =
TVWS channel, whether to a master device or to another machine (slave devic=
e), is under the control of a master device. This deployment scenario is ty=
pically characterized by a master device with internet connectivity by some=
 connection that does not utilize TV white space. Figure 2=85&quot;</span><=
span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(=
31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span></i></=
b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif; ">Agreed</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#0401=
00"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Step =
6]</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">6. The slave devices fitted to the machines sc=
an the TV bands to locate the master transmissions, and associate with the =
master device.&nbsp;Further signaling can take place outside &nbsp;scope of=
 PAWS to establish direct links among those slave devices that have associa=
ted with the master device.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5=
pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><b><i><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">[Andy Sago] </span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; colo=
r: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Agreed</span><span=
 style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbs=
p;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Step 7]</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Propose to =
remove this step for same reasons as discussed in Indoor Networking use cas=
e.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 12=
5); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#=
040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"c=
olor: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">[Andy Sago] Dis=
agree, for same reasons as for the Indoor Networking use case.</span></i></=
b><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards,</span><span style=3D"color:#04=
0100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Sc=
ott</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4D=
F 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">From: <=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black; font-family: Calibr=
i, sans-serif; ">&quot;ext <a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt=
.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.sago@bt.com">andy.sago@bt.com</a>=
&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:49:34 &#43;0100<br><b>To: </b>&quo=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Database Device &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:scott.probasco@nokia.com">scott.probasco@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:=
 </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.fitch@bt.com">michael.fitch@bt.com</a>&g=
t;, Juan Zuniga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com">J=
uanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[paws] New ind=
oor and M2M use cases, revision of DB discovery use case</span><span style=
=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Hi Scott, all</span><span style=3D"color:#=
040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbs=
p;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; ">I-D <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-use-ca=
ses-and-requirements-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zuniga-paws-uk-us=
e-cases-and-requirements-00.txt</a> proposes revision of the database disco=
very use case, two new use cases for indoor networking and machine to machi=
ne communications, and a set of requirements that drop out of all the use c=
ases included so far in the working document. These especially address the =
UK Ofcom requirements as currently known. Also, a definition is proposed fo=
r the term =91device ID=92 which we suggest should be used throughout the u=
se cases and requirements for consistency in place of terms such as =91mode=
l ID=92 and =91FCC ID=92. This Internet Draft is a joint submission from Mi=
ke Fitch (BT), Andy Sago (BT) and Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigital). We wou=
ld welcome comments made to the reflector on these proposals. We are willin=
g to present in Taipei if it would be helpful in providing further explanat=
ion to the content in the document.</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: =
black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">Regards</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nb=
sp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif; ">Andy Sago (BT), Mike Fitch (BT), Juan Carlos Zuniga (Interdigita=
l)</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color=
: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:#040100"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#040100">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#040100"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center"><=
/span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: g=
ray; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><br>********************************=
***************************************************************************=
*******<br>For more information visit <a href=3D"http://www.ofcom.org.uk">w=
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From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Oct 31 14:03:42 2011
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Subject: [paws] I-D Action: draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Protocol to Access WS database Workin=
g Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Protocol to Access White Space database: PS, use cases a=
nd rqmts
	Author(s)       : Scott Probasco
                          Basavaraj Patil
	Filename        : draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-01.txt
	Pages           : 33
	Date            : 2011-10-31

   Portions of the radio spectrum that are allocated to a licensed,
   primary user but are unused or unoccupied at specific locations and
   times are defined as &quot;white space&quot;.  The concept of allowing
   secondary transmissions (licensed or unlicensed) in white space is a
   technique to &quot;unlock&quot; existing spectrum for new use.  An obvio=
us
   requirement is that these secondary transmissions do not interfere
   with the primary use of the spectrum.  One approach to using the
   white space spectrum at a given time and location is to verify with a
   database available channels.

   This document describes the concept of TV White Spaces.  It also
   describes the problems that need to be addressed for enabling the use
   of the primary user owned white space spectrum for secondary users,
   without causing interference, by querying a database which knows the
   channel availability at any given location and time.  A number of
   possible use cases of this spectrum and derived requirements are also
   described.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-r=
qmts-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rq=
mts-01.txt

From scott.probasco@nokia.com  Mon Oct 31 14:23:10 2011
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Hi,

As shown below the update of the use case & requirements document has been
posted. For your convenience, here is a link to the difference between the
updated 01 and  older 00 version.

Regards,
Scott & Raj



On 10/31/11 4:03 PM, "ext internet-drafts@ietf.org"
<internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>directories. This draft is a work item of the Protocol to Access WS
>database Working Group of the IETF.
>
>	Title           : Protocol to Access White Space database: PS, use cases
>and rqmts
>	Author(s)       : Scott Probasco
>                          Basavaraj Patil
>	Filename        : draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-01.txt
>	Pages           : 33
>	Date            : 2011-10-31
>
>   Portions of the radio spectrum that are allocated to a licensed,
>   primary user but are unused or unoccupied at specific locations and
>   times are defined as &quot;white space&quot;.  The concept of allowing
>   secondary transmissions (licensed or unlicensed) in white space is a
>   technique to &quot;unlock&quot; existing spectrum for new use.  An
>obvious
>   requirement is that these secondary transmissions do not interfere
>   with the primary use of the spectrum.  One approach to using the
>   white space spectrum at a given time and location is to verify with a
>   database available channels.
>
>   This document describes the concept of TV White Spaces.  It also
>   describes the problems that need to be addressed for enabling the use
>   of the primary user owned white space spectrum for secondary users,
>   without causing interference, by querying a database which knows the
>   channel availability at any given location and time.  A number of
>   possible use cases of this spectrum and derived requirements are also
>   described.
>
>
>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-
>rqmts-01.txt
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-r
>qmts-01.txt
>_______________________________________________
>paws mailing list
>paws@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


From scott.probasco@nokia.com  Mon Oct 31 14:26:57 2011
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From: <scott.probasco@nokia.com>
To: <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] I-D Action: draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-01.txt
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Subject: Re: [paws] I-D Action: draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-01.txt
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http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-=
rq
mts-01


On 10/31/11 4:23 PM, "ext scott.probasco@nokia.com"
<scott.probasco@nokia.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>As shown below the update of the use case & requirements document has been
>posted. For your convenience, here is a link to the difference between the
>updated 01 and  older 00 version.
>
>Regards,
>Scott & Raj
>
>
>
>On 10/31/11 4:03 PM, "ext internet-drafts@ietf.org"
><internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>
>>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>directories. This draft is a work item of the Protocol to Access WS
>>database Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>>	Title           : Protocol to Access White Space database: PS, use cases
>>and rqmts
>>	Author(s)       : Scott Probasco
>>                          Basavaraj Patil
>>	Filename        : draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-rqmts-01.txt
>>	Pages           : 33
>>	Date            : 2011-10-31
>>
>>   Portions of the radio spectrum that are allocated to a licensed,
>>   primary user but are unused or unoccupied at specific locations and
>>   times are defined as &quot;white space&quot;.  The concept of allowing
>>   secondary transmissions (licensed or unlicensed) in white space is a
>>   technique to &quot;unlock&quot; existing spectrum for new use.  An
>>obvious
>>   requirement is that these secondary transmissions do not interfere
>>   with the primary use of the spectrum.  One approach to using the
>>   white space spectrum at a given time and location is to verify with a
>>   database available channels.
>>
>>   This document describes the concept of TV White Spaces.  It also
>>   describes the problems that need to be addressed for enabling the use
>>   of the primary user owned white space spectrum for secondary users,
>>   without causing interference, by querying a database which knows the
>>   channel availability at any given location and time.  A number of
>>   possible use cases of this spectrum and derived requirements are also
>>   described.
>>
>>
>>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases
>>-
>>rqmts-01.txt
>>
>>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>>This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-paws-problem-stmt-usecases-
>>r
>>qmts-01.txt
>>_______________________________________________
>>paws mailing list
>>paws@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>
>_______________________________________________
>paws mailing list
>paws@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


From subir@research.telcordia.com  Mon Oct 31 18:11:40 2011
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Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:11:43 -0400
From: Subir Das <subir@research.telcordia.com>
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Hello,
We have published a protocol framework document. It is currently 
available at the
following ftp site since we  missed the -00 draft submission  deadline:

          ftp://ftp.research.telcordia.com/pub/world/Das/

If your browser setting requires  a 'login' and 'passwd',  please  login 
as 'Anonymous' user
and provide your email address as passwd.

regards,
_Subir

