
From Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com  Sun Dec  1 09:43:53 2013
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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
To: <vchen@google.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding
Thread-Index: AQHO21/Y5fSt6kiPSUq/brjuCRWc6pom8WTggBjNkPA=
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 17:39:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding
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We have not received much feedback on Vince's proposal for spectrum encodin=
g, except changing some of the terminologies, which is up to the editor to =
decide.

This lack of feedback may mean folks are ok with the proposed text, but it =
may also mean that people simply got tired of the impasse and eagerly seek =
progress and be willing to settle on any encoding. Since I believe the prop=
osed text reflects the agreement from the f2f, and because of lack of addit=
ional feedback, I'd ask the editor to implement these changes into a new ve=
rsion of the draft. Once the draft is made available, we'll have a wg last =
call, where people get another chance to send to the list the problems they=
 see with the draft.

- Gabor




From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Baj=
ko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley)
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 2:52 PM
To: vchen@google.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding

Folks,

During last week's f2f, it was agreement in the room to add encoding for th=
e slopes, with the conditions Vince listed below.
Based on the comments received during the f2f, Vince came up with text and =
encoding proposal.
Please read through the proposal below and let the list know if you agree w=
ith it, or you would like some other wording/encoding. We need to make prog=
ress on the document, so your timely answer is appreciated.
If there won't be any objection to the proposal below, the text will be inc=
orporated into the new version of the document.

-Gabor


From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=
 Vincent Chen
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 6:20 PM
To: paws@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding

All,

At the F2F, it was agreed that allowing slopes to be encoded in the
available-spectrum response is acceptable if:
=A0- It is not required
=A0- It is used to represent the "availability mask" and NOT any "transmiss=
ion masks"

There was some concern about the point-wise representation.

It turns out that the IEEE 1900.5 working group for "Dynamic Spectrum
Access Network" has also been working on data models, and their data
models does use (frequency, power) point-wise representation for
spectrum masks.

So, in the interest of remaining aligned, I'm including proposed text that
uses the point-wise representation.

It is a rather long excerpt, but hopefully it provides a complete picture.

--=20
-vince=20

----------------------------

5.11. =A0Spectrum

=A0 =A0Available spectrum can be characterized by an ordered list of
=A0 =A0spectrum profiles that defines permissible power levels over a set o=
f
=A0 =A0frequency ranges. =A0Each Spectrum element defines permissible power
=A0 =A0levels as maximum power spectral densities over a specified
=A0 =A0resolution bandwidth, "psdBandwidthHz". =A0Note that the spectrum
=A0 =A0profiles represent the "availability mask", as defined by the
=A0 =A0governing rule set; they are not intended to encode device-level
=A0 =A0transmission-mask requirements.

=A0 =A0o =A0To support regulatory rules that define different "wide-band" a=
nd
=A0 =A0 =A0 "narrow-band" power levels, PAWS allows multiple Spectrum eleme=
nts
=A0 =A0 =A0 to be included in the available-spectrum response, each with a
=A0 =A0 =A0 different resolution bandwidth.
=A0 =A0o =A0When multiple Spectrum elements are included in the response, t=
hey
=A0 =A0 =A0 represent a logical AND condition, such that the Device MUST
=A0 =A0 =A0 satisfy all the conditions.
=A0 =A0o =A0Each Spectrum element MUST cover the range of frequencies gover=
ned
=A0 =A0 =A0 by a ruleset, rather than splitting the frequencies across
=A0 =A0 =A0 multiple Spectrum elements for the same resolution bandwidth.
=A0 =A0o =A0Each spectrum profile represents the maximum permissible power
=A0 =A0 =A0 spectral density over a contiguous range of frequencies.
=A0 =A0o =A0When multiple spectrum profiles are included, they MUST be
=A0 =A0 =A0 disjoint and SHOULD be ordered in non-decreasing frequency valu=
e.
=A0 =A0o =A0Gaps in frequencies between consecutive spectrum profiles
=A0 =A0 =A0 represent unavailability for those frequencies.

=A0 =A0The following figure illustrates the Spectrum element and the
=A0 =A0SpectrumProfile list.

=A0 =A0+-------------------------------+
=A0 =A0|Spectrum =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 |
=A0 =A0+---------------------+---------+
=A0 =A0|psdBandwidthHz:float |required |
=A0 =A0|profiles:list =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |---+
=A0 =A0+---------------------+---------+ =A0 | =A00..*
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0V
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+-----------------------------+
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|SpectrumProfile =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0|
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+-------------------+---------+
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|points:list =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+-------------------+---------+
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0|
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0V 2..*
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+------------------------------+
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|freqHz:float =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|powerDbmPerBw:float |required |
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+--------------------+---------+

=A0 =A0Parameters:

=A0 =A0psdBandwidthHz: =A0This parameter is REQUIRED to define the resoluti=
on
=A0 =A0 =A0 bandwidth (in Hertz) over which permissible power spectral dens=
ity
=A0 =A0 =A0 is defined. =A0For example, FCC regulation would require one
=A0 =A0 =A0 spectrum specification at a bandwidth of 6MHz, and ETSI regulat=
ion
=A0 =A0 =A0 would require two specifications, at 0.1MHz and 8MHz. =A0This
=A0 =A0 =A0 parameter MAY be empty if there is no available spectrum.
=A0 =A0profiles: =A0 A SpectrumProfile (Section 5.12) list is REQUIRED to
=A0 =A0 =A0 specify permissible power levels over a set of frequency ranges=
.
=A0 =A0 =A0 The list MAY be empty if there is no available spectrum.

=A0 =A0Consider the following example with different permitted power
=A0 =A0spectral densities for the same set of frequencies over different
=A0 =A0resolution bandwidths (for illustrative purposes only):

=A0 =A0[
=A0 =A0 =A0"spectrum": {
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"psdBandwidthHz": 6e6,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"profiles": [
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.18e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0]
=A0 =A0 =A0},
=A0 =A0 =A0"spectrum": {
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"psdBandwidthHz": 1e5,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"profiles": [
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.18e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0]
=A0 =A0 =A0}
=A0 =A0]

=A0 =A0This is interpreted as:

=A0 =A0o =A0Over any 6MHz within the frequency range, [518MHz, 524MHz),
=A0 =A0 =A0 maximum permitted power is 30.0dBm (1000mW), and
=A0 =A0o =A0Over any 100 kHz within the frequency range, [518MHz, 524MHz),
=A0 =A0 =A0 maximum permitted power is 27.0dBm (500mW)

=A0 =A0This would allow, for example, operating two 100kHz sub-channels
=A0 =A0within the indicated 6MHz range at 500mW each, totaling 1000mW. =A0O=
f
=A0 =A0course, many combinations are possible, as long as they satisfy both
=A0 =A0conditions.

=A0 =A0The following example illustrates multiple spectrum profiles that ha=
s
=A0 =A0a gap from 530 MHz to 536 MHz:

=A0 =A0[
=A0 =A0 =A0"spectrum": {
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"psdBandwidthHz": 6e6,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"profiles": [
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.18e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 36.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.30e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 36.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.36e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.42e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0]
=A0 =A0 =A0},
=A0 =A0 =A0"spectrum": {
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"psdBandwidthHz": 1e5,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"profiles": [
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.18e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.30e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.36e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{"freqHz": 5.42e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0]
=A0 =A0 =A0}
=A0 =A0]

5.12. =A0SpectrumProfile

=A0 =A0A spectrum profile is characterized by an ordered list of (frequency=
,
=A0 =A0power) points that represents the shape of maximum permissible power
=A0 =A0levels over a range of frequencies.

=A0 =A0o =A0It MUST contain a minimum of two entries.
=A0 =A0o =A0The entries in the list MUST be ordered in non-decreasing
=A0 =A0 =A0 frequency values.
=A0 =A0o =A0Two consecutive points MAY have the same frequency value to
=A0 =A0 =A0 represent a "step function".
=A0 =A0o =A0Three or more points MAY NOT share the same frequency value.
=A0 =A0o =A0The first frequency is inclusive; the last frequency is exclusi=
ve.

=A0 =A0The following figure defines the SpectrumProfile element.

=A0 =A0+-------------------------------+
=A0 =A0|SpectrumProfile =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|
=A0 =A0+---------------------+---------+
=A0 =A0|points:list =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |---+
=A0 =A0+---------------------+---------+ =A0 | =A02..*
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0V
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+------------------------------+
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|freqHz:float =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|powerDbmPerBw:float |required |
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+--------------------+---------+

=A0 =A0Parameters of each point in the profile:

=A0 =A0freqHz: =A0The frequency, in Hertz, at which the power level is
=A0 =A0 =A0 defined.
=A0 =A0powerDbmPerBw: =A0 The power level, express as dBm per resolution
=A0 =A0 =A0 bandwidth, as defined by the "psdBandwidthHz" element of the
=A0 =A0 =A0 enclosing Spectrum (Section 5.11) element.



From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Dec  2 15:09:56 2013
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Subject: [paws] I-D Action: draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Protocol to Access WS database Working Gr=
oup of the IETF.

	Title           : Protocol to Access White-Space (PAWS) Databases
	Author(s)       : Vincent Chen
                          Subir Das
                          Lei Zhu
                          John Malyar
                          Peter J. McCann
	Filename        : draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07.txt
	Pages           : 103
	Date            : 2013-12-02

Abstract:
   Portions of the radio spectrum that are allocated to licensees are
   available for non-interfering use.  This available spectrum is called
   "White Space."  Allowing secondary users access to available spectrum
   "unlocks" existing spectrum to maximize its utilization and to
   provide opportunities for innovation, resulting in greater overall
   spectrum utilization.

   One approach to manage spectrum sharing uses databases to report
   spectrum availability to devices.  To achieve interoperability among
   multiple devices and databases, a standardized protocol must be
   defined and implemented.  This document defines such a protocol, the
   "Protocol to Access White Space (PAWS) Databases".


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-paws-protocol-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 15:15:53 -0800
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From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
To: "gabor.bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
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Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding
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Thanks Gabor,

I uploaded a new draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/

I believe this reflects the agreement from the F2F and on the list.

Diffs:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-paws-protocol-06&difftype=--html&submit=Go%21&url2=draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07

-vince


On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:39 AM, <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com> wrote:

> We have not received much feedback on Vince's proposal for spectrum
> encoding, except changing some of the terminologies, which is up to the
> editor to decide.
>
> This lack of feedback may mean folks are ok with the proposed text, but it
> may also mean that people simply got tired of the impasse and eagerly seek
> progress and be willing to settle on any encoding. Since I believe the
> proposed text reflects the agreement from the f2f, and because of lack of
> additional feedback, I'd ask the editor to implement these changes into a
> new version of the draft. Once the draft is made available, we'll have a wg
> last call, where people get another chance to send to the list the problems
> they see with the draft.
>
> - Gabor
>
>
>
>
> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley)
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 2:52 PM
> To: vchen@google.com; paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding
>
> Folks,
>
> During last week's f2f, it was agreement in the room to add encoding for
> the slopes, with the conditions Vince listed below.
> Based on the comments received during the f2f, Vince came up with text and
> encoding proposal.
> Please read through the proposal below and let the list know if you agree
> with it, or you would like some other wording/encoding. We need to make
> progress on the document, so your timely answer is appreciated.
> If there won't be any objection to the proposal below, the text will be
> incorporated into the new version of the document.
>
> -Gabor
>
>
> From: paws-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> ext Vincent Chen
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 6:20 PM
> To: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding
>
> All,
>
> At the F2F, it was agreed that allowing slopes to be encoded in the
> available-spectrum response is acceptable if:
>  - It is not required
>  - It is used to represent the "availability mask" and NOT any
> "transmission masks"
>
> There was some concern about the point-wise representation.
>
> It turns out that the IEEE 1900.5 working group for "Dynamic Spectrum
> Access Network" has also been working on data models, and their data
> models does use (frequency, power) point-wise representation for
> spectrum masks.
>
> So, in the interest of remaining aligned, I'm including proposed text that
> uses the point-wise representation.
>
> It is a rather long excerpt, but hopefully it provides a complete picture.
>
> --
> -vince
>
> ----------------------------
>
> 5.11.  Spectrum
>
>    Available spectrum can be characterized by an ordered list of
>    spectrum profiles that defines permissible power levels over a set of
>    frequency ranges.  Each Spectrum element defines permissible power
>    levels as maximum power spectral densities over a specified
>    resolution bandwidth, "psdBandwidthHz".  Note that the spectrum
>    profiles represent the "availability mask", as defined by the
>    governing rule set; they are not intended to encode device-level
>    transmission-mask requirements.
>
>    o  To support regulatory rules that define different "wide-band" and
>       "narrow-band" power levels, PAWS allows multiple Spectrum elements
>       to be included in the available-spectrum response, each with a
>       different resolution bandwidth.
>    o  When multiple Spectrum elements are included in the response, they
>       represent a logical AND condition, such that the Device MUST
>       satisfy all the conditions.
>    o  Each Spectrum element MUST cover the range of frequencies governed
>       by a ruleset, rather than splitting the frequencies across
>       multiple Spectrum elements for the same resolution bandwidth.
>    o  Each spectrum profile represents the maximum permissible power
>       spectral density over a contiguous range of frequencies.
>    o  When multiple spectrum profiles are included, they MUST be
>       disjoint and SHOULD be ordered in non-decreasing frequency value.
>    o  Gaps in frequencies between consecutive spectrum profiles
>       represent unavailability for those frequencies.
>
>    The following figure illustrates the Spectrum element and the
>    SpectrumProfile list.
>
>    +-------------------------------+
>    |Spectrum                       |
>    +---------------------+---------+
>    |psdBandwidthHz:float |required |
>    |profiles:list        |required |---+
>    +---------------------+---------+   |  0..*
>                                        V
>                  +-----------------------------+
>                  |SpectrumProfile              |
>                  +-------------------+---------+
>                  |points:list        |required |
>                  +-------------------+---------+
>                                        |
>                                        V 2..*
>                  +------------------------------+
>                  |freqHz:float        |required |
>                  |powerDbmPerBw:float |required |
>                  +--------------------+---------+
>
>    Parameters:
>
>    psdBandwidthHz:  This parameter is REQUIRED to define the resolution
>       bandwidth (in Hertz) over which permissible power spectral density
>       is defined.  For example, FCC regulation would require one
>       spectrum specification at a bandwidth of 6MHz, and ETSI regulation
>       would require two specifications, at 0.1MHz and 8MHz.  This
>       parameter MAY be empty if there is no available spectrum.
>    profiles:   A SpectrumProfile (Section 5.12) list is REQUIRED to
>       specify permissible power levels over a set of frequency ranges.
>       The list MAY be empty if there is no available spectrum.
>
>    Consider the following example with different permitted power
>    spectral densities for the same set of frequencies over different
>    resolution bandwidths (for illustrative purposes only):
>
>    [
>      "spectrum": {
>        "psdBandwidthHz": 6e6,
>        "profiles": [
>          [
>            {"freqHz": 5.18e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
>          ],
>          ...
>        ]
>      },
>      "spectrum": {
>        "psdBandwidthHz": 1e5,
>        "profiles": [
>          [
>            {"freqHz": 5.18e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
>          ],
>          ...
>        ]
>      }
>    ]
>
>    This is interpreted as:
>
>    o  Over any 6MHz within the frequency range, [518MHz, 524MHz),
>       maximum permitted power is 30.0dBm (1000mW), and
>    o  Over any 100 kHz within the frequency range, [518MHz, 524MHz),
>       maximum permitted power is 27.0dBm (500mW)
>
>    This would allow, for example, operating two 100kHz sub-channels
>    within the indicated 6MHz range at 500mW each, totaling 1000mW.  Of
>    course, many combinations are possible, as long as they satisfy both
>    conditions.
>
>    The following example illustrates multiple spectrum profiles that has
>    a gap from 530 MHz to 536 MHz:
>
>    [
>      "spectrum": {
>        "psdBandwidthHz": 6e6,
>        "profiles": [
>          [
>            {"freqHz": 5.18e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 36.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.30e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 36.0},
>          ],
>          [
>            {"freqHz": 5.36e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.42e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
>          ],
>          ...
>        ]
>      },
>      "spectrum": {
>        "psdBandwidthHz": 1e5,
>        "profiles": [
>          [
>            {"freqHz": 5.18e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.24e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.30e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 30.0},
>          ],
>          [
>            {"freqHz": 5.36e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
>            {"freqHz": 5.42e8, "powerDbmPerBw": 27.0},
>          ],
>          ...
>        ]
>      }
>    ]
>
> 5.12.  SpectrumProfile
>
>    A spectrum profile is characterized by an ordered list of (frequency,
>    power) points that represents the shape of maximum permissible power
>    levels over a range of frequencies.
>
>    o  It MUST contain a minimum of two entries.
>    o  The entries in the list MUST be ordered in non-decreasing
>       frequency values.
>    o  Two consecutive points MAY have the same frequency value to
>       represent a "step function".
>    o  Three or more points MAY NOT share the same frequency value.
>    o  The first frequency is inclusive; the last frequency is exclusive.
>
>    The following figure defines the SpectrumProfile element.
>
>    +-------------------------------+
>    |SpectrumProfile                |
>    +---------------------+---------+
>    |points:list          |required |---+
>    +---------------------+---------+   |  2..*
>                                        V
>                  +------------------------------+
>                  |freqHz:float        |required |
>                  |powerDbmPerBw:float |required |
>                  +--------------------+---------+
>
>    Parameters of each point in the profile:
>
>    freqHz:  The frequency, in Hertz, at which the power level is
>       defined.
>    powerDbmPerBw:   The power level, express as dBm per resolution
>       bandwidth, as defined by the "psdBandwidthHz" element of the
>       enclosing Spectrum (Section 5.11) element.
>
>
>


-- 
-vince

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Gabor,<div><br></div><div>I uploaded a new draft:=
=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/</a></div><div><br=
></div>
<div>I believe this reflects the agreement from the F2F and on the list.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Diffs:=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url=
1=3Ddraft-ietf-paws-protocol-06&amp;difftype=3D--html&amp;submit=3DGo%21&am=
p;url2=3Ddraft-ietf-paws-protocol-07">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dd=
raft-ietf-paws-protocol-06&amp;difftype=3D--html&amp;submit=3DGo%21&amp;url=
2=3Ddraft-ietf-paws-protocol-07</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>-vince</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:39 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">Gabor.Bajko=
@nokia.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">We have not received much feedback on Vince&=
#39;s proposal for spectrum encoding, except changing some of the terminolo=
gies, which is up to the editor to decide.<br>

<br>
This lack of feedback may mean folks are ok with the proposed text, but it =
may also mean that people simply got tired of the impasse and eagerly seek =
progress and be willing to settle on any encoding. Since I believe the prop=
osed text reflects the agreement from the f2f, and because of lack of addit=
ional feedback, I&#39;d ask the editor to implement these changes into a ne=
w version of the draft. Once the draft is made available, we&#39;ll have a =
wg last call, where people get another chance to send to the list the probl=
ems they see with the draft.<br>

<br>
- Gabor<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a> [m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a>] O=
n Behalf Of Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CIC/SiliconValley)<br>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 2:52 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:vchen@google.com">vchen@google.com</a>; <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
During last week&#39;s f2f, it was agreement in the room to add encoding fo=
r the slopes, with the conditions Vince listed below.<br>
Based on the comments received during the f2f, Vince came up with text and =
encoding proposal.<br>
Please read through the proposal below and let the list know if you agree w=
ith it, or you would like some other wording/encoding. We need to make prog=
ress on the document, so your timely answer is appreciated.<br>
If there won&#39;t be any objection to the proposal below, the text will be=
 incorporated into the new version of the document.<br>
<br>
-Gabor<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a> [m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a>] O=
n Behalf Of ext Vincent Chen<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 6:20 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [paws] Proposed text: Spectrum encoding<br>
<br>
All,<br>
<br>
At the F2F, it was agreed that allowing slopes to be encoded in the<br>
available-spectrum response is acceptable if:<br>
=A0- It is not required<br>
=A0- It is used to represent the &quot;availability mask&quot; and NOT any =
&quot;transmission masks&quot;<br>
<br>
There was some concern about the point-wise representation.<br>
<br>
It turns out that the IEEE 1900.5 working group for &quot;Dynamic Spectrum<=
br>
Access Network&quot; has also been working on data models, and their data<b=
r>
models does use (frequency, power) point-wise representation for<br>
spectrum masks.<br>
<br>
So, in the interest of remaining aligned, I&#39;m including proposed text t=
hat<br>
uses the point-wise representation.<br>
<br>
It is a rather long excerpt, but hopefully it provides a complete picture.<=
br>
<br>
--<br>
-vince<br>
<br>
----------------------------<br>
<br>
5.11. =A0Spectrum<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0Available spectrum can be characterized by an ordered list of<br>
=A0 =A0spectrum profiles that defines permissible power levels over a set o=
f<br>
=A0 =A0frequency ranges. =A0Each Spectrum element defines permissible power=
<br>
=A0 =A0levels as maximum power spectral densities over a specified<br>
=A0 =A0resolution bandwidth, &quot;psdBandwidthHz&quot;. =A0Note that the s=
pectrum<br>
=A0 =A0profiles represent the &quot;availability mask&quot;, as defined by =
the<br>
=A0 =A0governing rule set; they are not intended to encode device-level<br>
=A0 =A0transmission-mask requirements.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0To support regulatory rules that define different &quot;wide-ba=
nd&quot; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 &quot;narrow-band&quot; power levels, PAWS allows multiple Spec=
trum elements<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 to be included in the available-spectrum response, each with a<=
br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 different resolution bandwidth.<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0When multiple Spectrum elements are included in the response, t=
hey<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 represent a logical AND condition, such that the Device MUST<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0 satisfy all the conditions.<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0Each Spectrum element MUST cover the range of frequencies gover=
ned<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 by a ruleset, rather than splitting the frequencies across<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 multiple Spectrum elements for the same resolution bandwidth.<b=
r>
=A0 =A0o =A0Each spectrum profile represents the maximum permissible power<=
br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 spectral density over a contiguous range of frequencies.<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0When multiple spectrum profiles are included, they MUST be<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 disjoint and SHOULD be ordered in non-decreasing frequency valu=
e.<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0Gaps in frequencies between consecutive spectrum profiles<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 represent unavailability for those frequencies.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0The following figure illustrates the Spectrum element and the<br>
=A0 =A0SpectrumProfile list.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0+-------------------------------+<br>
=A0 =A0|Spectrum =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 |<br>
=A0 =A0+---------------------+---------+<br>
=A0 =A0|psdBandwidthHz:float |required |<br>
=A0 =A0|profiles:list =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |---+<br>
=A0 =A0+---------------------+---------+ =A0 | =A00..*<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0V<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+-----------------------------+<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|SpectrumProfile =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0|<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+-------------------+---------+<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|points:list =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |<=
br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+-------------------+---------+<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0|<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0V 2..*<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+------------------------------+<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|freqHz:float =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |=
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|powerDbmPerBw:float |required |<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+--------------------+---------+<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0Parameters:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0psdBandwidthHz: =A0This parameter is REQUIRED to define the resoluti=
on<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 bandwidth (in Hertz) over which permissible power spectral dens=
ity<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 is defined. =A0For example, FCC regulation would require one<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0 spectrum specification at a bandwidth of 6MHz, and ETSI regulat=
ion<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 would require two specifications, at 0.1MHz and 8MHz. =A0This<b=
r>
=A0 =A0 =A0 parameter MAY be empty if there is no available spectrum.<br>
=A0 =A0profiles: =A0 A SpectrumProfile (Section 5.12) list is REQUIRED to<b=
r>
=A0 =A0 =A0 specify permissible power levels over a set of frequency ranges=
.<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 The list MAY be empty if there is no available spectrum.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0Consider the following example with different permitted power<br>
=A0 =A0spectral densities for the same set of frequencies over different<br=
>
=A0 =A0resolution bandwidths (for illustrative purposes only):<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0[<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&quot;spectrum&quot;: {<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;psdBandwidthHz&quot;: 6e6,<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;profiles&quot;: [<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.18e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 30.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.24e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 30.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0]<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&quot;spectrum&quot;: {<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;psdBandwidthHz&quot;: 1e5,<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;profiles&quot;: [<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.18e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 27.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.24e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 27.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0]<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0}<br>
=A0 =A0]<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0This is interpreted as:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0Over any 6MHz within the frequency range, [518MHz, 524MHz),<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 maximum permitted power is 30.0dBm (1000mW), and<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0Over any 100 kHz within the frequency range, [518MHz, 524MHz),<=
br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 maximum permitted power is 27.0dBm (500mW)<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0This would allow, for example, operating two 100kHz sub-channels<br>
=A0 =A0within the indicated 6MHz range at 500mW each, totaling 1000mW. =A0O=
f<br>
=A0 =A0course, many combinations are possible, as long as they satisfy both=
<br>
=A0 =A0conditions.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0The following example illustrates multiple spectrum profiles that ha=
s<br>
=A0 =A0a gap from 530 MHz to 536 MHz:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0[<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&quot;spectrum&quot;: {<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;psdBandwidthHz&quot;: 6e6,<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;profiles&quot;: [<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.18e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 30.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.24e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 30.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.24e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 36.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.30e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 36.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.36e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 30.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.42e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 30.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0]<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0&quot;spectrum&quot;: {<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;psdBandwidthHz&quot;: 1e5,<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0&quot;profiles&quot;: [<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.18e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 27.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.24e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 27.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.24e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 30.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.30e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 30.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.36e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 27.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0{&quot;freqHz&quot;: 5.42e8, &quot;powerDbmPerBw&quo=
t;: 27.0},<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0],<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0]<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0}<br>
=A0 =A0]<br>
<br>
5.12. =A0SpectrumProfile<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0A spectrum profile is characterized by an ordered list of (frequency=
,<br>
=A0 =A0power) points that represents the shape of maximum permissible power=
<br>
=A0 =A0levels over a range of frequencies.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0It MUST contain a minimum of two entries.<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0The entries in the list MUST be ordered in non-decreasing<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 frequency values.<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0Two consecutive points MAY have the same frequency value to<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 represent a &quot;step function&quot;.<br>
=A0 =A0o =A0Three or more points MAY NOT share the same frequency value.<br=
>
=A0 =A0o =A0The first frequency is inclusive; the last frequency is exclusi=
ve.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0The following figure defines the SpectrumProfile element.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0+-------------------------------+<br>
=A0 =A0|SpectrumProfile =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|<br>
=A0 =A0+---------------------+---------+<br>
=A0 =A0|points:list =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |---+<br>
=A0 =A0+---------------------+---------+ =A0 | =A02..*<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0V<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+------------------------------+<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|freqHz:float =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|required |=
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|powerDbmPerBw:float |required |<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0+--------------------+---------+<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0Parameters of each point in the profile:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0freqHz: =A0The frequency, in Hertz, at which the power level is<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 defined.<br>
=A0 =A0powerDbmPerBw: =A0 The power level, express as dBm per resolution<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0 bandwidth, as defined by the &quot;psdBandwidthHz&quot; element=
 of the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 enclosing Spectrum (Section 5.11) element.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
-vince
</div>

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The editor posted the new draft, version -07.

I'd like to issue another  wg last call on the document. We need reviews an=
d feedback in order to be able to progress the document.



Please read through the draft and send any comments you may have to the lis=
t in the next 2-3 weeks.

If you review the draft and have no comments, send a note to the list that =
the draft is good as it is, we need these notes as much as we need the actu=
al comments.



Without a minimum number of reviews the document won't make progress toward=
s publication. If you care about it, read it please.



Thanks, Gabor


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The editor posted the new draft, version -07.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I'd like to issue another &nbsp;wg last call on t=
he document. We need reviews and feedback in order to be able to progress t=
he document.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Please read through the draft and send any commen=
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Subject: [paws] Fixing/uniquifying TBD for etsi/ofcom rulesets?
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Greetings PAWSians,

Currently 9.2.2.2 (
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-9.2.2.2) has
"Ruleset name:  TBD."
Is now the right time to pick a name for this ruleset? It would be nice to
have something in place as the Ofcom whitespace pilot trials will be
happening soon and both device and database implementations will be hitting
question in the near term.

Perhaps "ETSI-EN-301-598-1.0.0-draft" would be better than "TBD" if we
can't declare a final ruleset name? Even if a TBD is the right thing to
have in place for now, should it at least be uniqueified (e.g., "TBD1" as
described in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-5.1)?

Relatedly, should the reference in
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-13.2 also be
updated to point at
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_20/en_301598v010000a.pdf
or
is that something to be done after the draft exists the working group?

I gather the remaining TBDs in the IANA Considerations section would be set
once the draft leaves the working group.

Thanks,
-- mike

-- 
----------------------------------
Michael R Head <mrhead@google.com>
http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike
+1-201-BLISTER

--001a1134a680b8d50304eca91160
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Greetings PAWSians,</div><div><br></div><div>Currentl=
y 9.2.2.2 (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-0=
7#section-9.2.2.2" class=3D"cremed">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-p=
aws-protocol-07#section-9.2.2.2</a>) has &quot;Ruleset name: =A0TBD.&quot;=
=A0<br>
</div><div>Is now the right time to pick a name for this ruleset? It would =
be nice to have something in place as the Ofcom whitespace pilot trials wil=
l be happening soon and both device and database implementations will be hi=
tting question in the near term.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Perhaps &quot;ETSI-EN-301-598-1.0.0-draft&quot; would b=
e better than &quot;TBD&quot; if we can&#39;t declare a final ruleset name?=
 Even if a TBD is the right thing to have in place for now, should it at le=
ast be uniqueified (e.g., &quot;TBD1&quot; as described in=A0<a href=3D"htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-5.1" class=3D"cremed">http://tools.=
ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-5.1</a>)?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Relatedly, should the reference in=A0<a href=3D"http://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-13.2" class=3D"crem=
ed">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-13.2</a>=
=A0also be updated to point at=A0<a href=3D"http://www.etsi.org/deliver/ets=
i_en/301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_20/en_301598v010000a.pdf" class=3D"creme=
d">http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_20/en_=
301598v010000a.pdf</a>=A0or is that something to be done after the draft ex=
ists the working group?</div>
<div><br></div><div>I gather the remaining TBDs in the IANA Considerations =
section would be set once the draft leaves the working group.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>-- mike=A0</div><div><div><br></div>-- <br>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"&#39;courier new&#39;, monospace" color=3D"#=
666666">----------------------------------</font><div><font face=3D"&#39;co=
urier new&#39;, monospace" color=3D"#666666">Michael R Head &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:mrhead@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mrhead@google.=
com</a>&gt;</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"&#39;courier new&#39;, monospace" color=3D"#666666"><a h=
ref=3D"http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d">http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike</a></font></div><div><font face=3D"&#=
39;courier new&#39;, monospace" color=3D"#666666">+1-201-BLISTER</font></di=
v>
</div>
</div></div>

--001a1134a680b8d50304eca91160--

From d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com  Fri Dec  6 11:15:04 2013
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From: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 14:14:54 -0500
Thread-Topic: Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Subject: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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All,

While working closely with a number of white space radio vendors that wish =
to support the PAWS protocol, some have expressed concerns with the size of=
 paws messages, especially the size of an AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP message that =
supports Ofcom requirements and includes every channel. One issue raised is=
 that when these messages are very large (in this case >14k bytes), requiri=
ng several MTU's of packet data, their radio device does not have enough av=
ailable RAM (or resources) to support the required packet buffering, especi=
ally when their device is being used as a master with several attached slav=
es. A second issue raised is the amount of traffic generated by these contr=
ol messages, reducing the bandwidth available for user data traffic. The wo=
rst case is a master device supporting several slave devices where every de=
vice is required to periodically request a new channel list (and the period=
ic interval requirement seems to be getting smaller). Both issues are serio=
us concerns for these radio vendors, and unless we do something to resolve =
it, they may not be able to support the paws protocol. A further concern fo=
r radio developers is energy expended per transmitted bit.  This is a major=
 issue for battery powered devices.

I would like to propose that we support an optional shortened message forma=
t, by creating a two-character alias for each defined parameter's text name=
, without making any changes to message structure. We would be shortening t=
he parameter text names, not the parameter data values. When a device sends=
 a message to the database with shortened parameter names, the presence of =
shortened parameter names could serve as a trigger for the database to repl=
y to the device using shortened parameter names in the reply message.

This would be fairly easy to express in the current document by adding a pa=
ragraph to explain the support for shortened messages and adding a two-char=
acter alias in parenthesis next to each defined parameter name. I have atta=
ched an example to this email as a markup to page 40 of the version 7 draft=
.
In the example, I have defined two-character aliases for several parameter =
names, and included a sample "spectrum" section that uses shortened paramet=
er names.

The sample uses the following aliases:

"spectrum" =3D "sp"
"resolutionBwHz" =3D "bw"
"profiles" =3D "pf"
"freqHz" =3D "hz"
"powerDbmPerBw" =3D "pw"

We could define the shortened parameter names and make support of shortened=
 messages optional to allow database owners to decide if they want to suppo=
rt shortened messages or not.

If there is support for this proposal, I would volunteer to update the vers=
ion 7 draft to help move it forward.

Thank you,
Don

--_000_8375F6DAEFB09F48815203F1FE23B79741BEC371B3shelby_
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nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>All,<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>While wor=
king closely with a number of white space radio vendors that wish to suppor=
t the PAWS protocol, some have expressed concerns with the size of paws mes=
sages, especially the size of an AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP message that supports =
Ofcom requirements and includes every channel. One issue raised is that whe=
n these messages are very large (in this case &gt;14k bytes), requiring sev=
eral MTU&#8217;s of packet data, their radio device does not have enough av=
ailable RAM (or resources) to support the required packet buffering, especi=
ally when their device is being used as a master with several attached slav=
es. A second issue raised is the amount of traffic generated by these contr=
ol messages, reducing the bandwidth available for user data traffic. The wo=
rst case is a master device supporting several slave devices where every de=
vice is required to periodically request a new channel list (and the period=
ic interval requirement seems to be getting smaller). Both issues are serio=
us concerns for these radio vendors, and unless we do something to resolve =
it, they may not be able to support the paws protocol. A further concern fo=
r radio developers is energy expended per transmitted bit.&nbsp; This is a =
major issue for battery powered devices.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I would like to propose that we =
support an optional shortened message format, by creating a two-character a=
lias for each defined parameter&#8217;s text name, without making any chang=
es to message structure. We would be shortening the parameter text names, n=
ot the parameter data values. When a device sends a message to the database=
 with shortened parameter names, the presence of shortened parameter names =
could serve as a trigger for the database to reply to the device using shor=
tened parameter names in the reply message.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This would be fairly easy to =
express in the current document by adding a paragraph to explain the suppor=
t for shortened messages and adding a two-character alias in parenthesis ne=
xt to each defined parameter name. I have attached an example to this email=
 as a markup to page 40 of the version 7 draft.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal>In the example, I have defined two-character aliases for several pa=
rameter names, and included a sample &#8220;spectrum&#8221; section that us=
es shortened parameter names.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The sample uses the following aliases:<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&#=
8220;spectrum&#8221; =3D &#8220;sp&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l>&#8220;resolutionBwHz&#8221; =3D &#8220;bw&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;profiles&#8221; =3D &#8220;pf&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;freqHz&#8221; =3D &#8220;hz&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#8221; =3D &#8220;pw&#8221;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We co=
uld define the shortened parameter names and make support of shortened mess=
ages optional to allow database owners to decide if they want to support sh=
ortened messages or not.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If there is support for this proposal, I would v=
olunteer to update the version 7 draft to help move it forward.<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you=
,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Don<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>=

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From Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com  Fri Dec  6 14:30:43 2013
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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
To: <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>, <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 22:26:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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You are asking for a json compression mechanism, for understandable reasons=
. I was actually surprised this issue did not come up earlier.
We first need to have a discussion to see if there's consensus for the need=
 of a compression mechanism, and if yes, then see how do we get one in plac=
e.
I did not find any json compression related work in ietf, but a quick searc=
h found few available algorithms. Do we have on this list JSON experts who =
could give some advice?
Gabor


From: paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Don Joslyn
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:15 AM
To: paws@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

All,

While working closely with a number of white space radio vendors that wish =
to support the PAWS protocol, some have expressed concerns with the size of=
 paws messages, especially the size of an AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP message that =
supports Ofcom requirements and includes every channel. One issue raised is=
 that when these messages are very large (in this case >14k bytes), requiri=
ng several MTU's of packet data, their radio device does not have enough av=
ailable RAM (or resources) to support the required packet buffering, especi=
ally when their device is being used as a master with several attached slav=
es. A second issue raised is the amount of traffic generated by these contr=
ol messages, reducing the bandwidth available for user data traffic. The wo=
rst case is a master device supporting several slave devices where every de=
vice is required to periodically request a new channel list (and the period=
ic interval requirement seems to be getting smaller). Both issues are serio=
us concerns for these radio vendors, and unless we do something to resolve =
it, they may not be able to support the paws protocol. A further concern fo=
r radio developers is energy expended per transmitted bit.  This is a major=
 issue for battery powered devices.

I would like to propose that we support an optional shortened message forma=
t, by creating a two-character alias for each defined parameter's text name=
, without making any changes to message structure. We would be shortening t=
he parameter text names, not the parameter data values. When a device sends=
 a message to the database with shortened parameter names, the presence of =
shortened parameter names could serve as a trigger for the database to repl=
y to the device using shortened parameter names in the reply message.

This would be fairly easy to express in the current document by adding a pa=
ragraph to explain the support for shortened messages and adding a two-char=
acter alias in parenthesis next to each defined parameter name. I have atta=
ched an example to this email as a markup to page 40 of the version 7 draft=
.
In the example, I have defined two-character aliases for several parameter =
names, and included a sample "spectrum" section that uses shortened paramet=
er names.

The sample uses the following aliases:

"spectrum" =3D "sp"
"resolutionBwHz" =3D "bw"
"profiles" =3D "pf"
"freqHz" =3D "hz"
"powerDbmPerBw" =3D "pw"

We could define the shortened parameter names and make support of shortened=
 messages optional to allow database owners to decide if they want to suppo=
rt shortened messages or not.

If there is support for this proposal, I would volunteer to update the vers=
ion 7 draft to help move it forward.

Thank you,
Don

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">You are asking for a j=
son compression mechan</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"=
>ism, for understandable reasons. I was actually surprised this issue did n=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">We fi=
rst need to have a discussion to see if there&#8217;s consensus for the nee=
d of a compression mechanism, and if yes, then see how do we get one in pla=
ce.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">I did=
 not find any json compression related work in ietf, but a quick search fou=
nd few available algorithms. Do we have on this list JSON experts who could=
 give some advice?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D">Gabor=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> paws [ma=
ilto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Don Joslyn<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 06, 2013 11:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> paws@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message for=
mat<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">While working closely with a number of white space r=
adio vendors that wish to support the PAWS protocol, some have expressed co=
ncerns with the size of paws messages, especially the size of an AVAIL_SPEC=
TRUM_RESP message that supports Ofcom
 requirements and includes every channel. One issue raised is that when the=
se messages are very large (in this case &gt;14k bytes), requiring several =
MTU&#8217;s of packet data, their radio device does not have enough availab=
le RAM (or resources) to support the required
 packet buffering, especially when their device is being used as a master w=
ith several attached slaves. A second issue raised is the amount of traffic=
 generated by these control messages, reducing the bandwidth available for =
user data traffic. The worst case
 is a master device supporting several slave devices where every device is =
required to periodically request a new channel list (and the periodic inter=
val requirement seems to be getting smaller). Both issues are serious conce=
rns for these radio vendors, and
 unless we do something to resolve it, they may not be able to support the =
paws protocol. A further concern for radio developers is energy expended pe=
r transmitted bit.&nbsp; This is a major issue for battery powered devices.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would like to propose that we support an optional =
shortened message format, by creating a two-character alias for each define=
d parameter&#8217;s text name, without making any changes to message struct=
ure. We would be shortening the parameter
 text names, not the parameter data values. When a device sends a message t=
o the database with shortened parameter names, the presence of shortened pa=
rameter names could serve as a trigger for the database to reply to the dev=
ice using shortened parameter names
 in the reply message.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This would be fairly easy to express in the current =
document by adding a paragraph to explain the support for shortened message=
s and adding a two-character alias in parenthesis next to each defined para=
meter name. I have attached an example
 to this email as a markup to page 40 of the version 7 draft.<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the example, I have defined two-character aliases=
 for several parameter names, and included a sample &#8220;spectrum&#8221; =
section that uses shortened parameter names.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The sample uses the following aliases:<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;spectrum&#8221; =3D &#8220;sp&#8221;<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;resolutionBwHz&#8221; =3D &#8220;bw&#8221;<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;profiles&#8221; =3D &#8220;pf&#8221;<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;freqHz&#8221; =3D &#8220;hz&#8221;<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#8221; =3D &#8220;pw&#8221;<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We could define the shortened parameter names and ma=
ke support of shortened messages optional to allow database owners to decid=
e if they want to support shortened messages or not.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If there is support for this proposal, I would volun=
teer to update the version 7 draft to help move it forward.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Don<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Thread-Topic: [paws] Fixing/uniquifying TBD for etsi/ofcom rulesets?
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Yes, we have to get rid of the TBDs before sending the draft to the iesg.

From: paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Michael Head
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:47 PM
To: paws@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] Fixing/uniquifying TBD for etsi/ofcom rulesets?

Greetings PAWSians,

Currently 9.2.2.2 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#s=
ection-9.2.2.2) has "Ruleset name:  TBD."
Is now the right time to pick a name for this ruleset? It would be nice to =
have something in place as the Ofcom whitespace pilot trials will be happen=
ing soon and both device and database implementations will be hitting quest=
ion in the near term.

Perhaps "ETSI-EN-301-598-1.0.0-draft" would be better than "TBD" if we can'=
t declare a final ruleset name? Even if a TBD is the right thing to have in=
 place for now, should it at least be uniqueified (e.g., "TBD1" as describe=
d in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-5.1)?

Relatedly, should the reference in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pa=
ws-protocol-07#section-13.2 also be updated to point at http://www.etsi.org=
/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_20/en_301598v010000a.pdf or =
is that something to be done after the draft exists the working group?

I gather the remaining TBDs in the IANA Considerations section would be set=
 once the draft leaves the working group.

Thanks,
-- mike

--
----------------------------------
Michael R Head <mrhead@google.com<mailto:mrhead@google.com>>
http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike
+1-201-BLISTER

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yes, we have to get rid o=
f the TBDs before sending the draft to the iesg.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> paws [ma=
ilto:paws-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Michael Head<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> paws@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [paws] Fixing/uniquifying TBD for etsi/ofcom rulesets?<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greetings PAWSians,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Currently 9.2.2.2 (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-9.2.2.2">http://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-9.2.2.2</a>) has &quot;Ruleset name: =
&nbsp;TBD.&quot;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is now the right time to pick a name for this rulese=
t? It would be nice to have something in place as the Ofcom whitespace pilo=
t trials will be happening soon and both device and database implementation=
s will be hitting question in the
 near term.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Perhaps &quot;ETSI-EN-301-598-1.0.0-draft&quot; woul=
d be better than &quot;TBD&quot; if we can't declare a final ruleset name? =
Even if a TBD is the right thing to have in place for now, should it at lea=
st be uniqueified (e.g., &quot;TBD1&quot; as described in&nbsp;<a href=3D"h=
ttp://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-5.1">http://tools.ietf.org/html/r=
fc5226#section-5.1</a>)?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Relatedly, should the reference in&nbsp;<a href=3D"h=
ttp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-13.2">http://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-13.2</a>&nbsp;also =
be updated to point at&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/=
301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_20/en_301598v010000a.pdf">http://www.etsi.org=
/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_20/en_301598v010000a.pdf</a>=
&nbsp;or
 is that something to be done after the draft exists the working group?<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I gather the remaining TBDs in the IANA Consideratio=
ns section would be set once the draft leaves the working group.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- mike&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:#666666">----------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:#666666">Michael R Head &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mrhead@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mrhead@google.com</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:#666666"><a href=3D"http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:#666666">&#43;1-201-BLISTER</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
To: "gabor.bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] Fixing/uniquifying TBD for etsi/ofcom rulesets?
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Thanks Gabor,

I would be looking for guidance on the IANA section on what the mailing
list should be and where it would be hosted.

-vince


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 5:04 PM, <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com> wrote:

>  Yes, we have to get rid of the TBDs before sending the draft to the iesg.
>
>
>
> *From:* paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Michael
> Head
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:47 PM
> *To:* paws@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [paws] Fixing/uniquifying TBD for etsi/ofcom rulesets?
>
>
>
> Greetings PAWSians,
>
>
>
> Currently 9.2.2.2 (
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-9.2.2.2)
> has "Ruleset name:  TBD."
>
> Is now the right time to pick a name for this ruleset? It would be nice to
> have something in place as the Ofcom whitespace pilot trials will be
> happening soon and both device and database implementations will be hitting
> question in the near term.
>
>
>
> Perhaps "ETSI-EN-301-598-1.0.0-draft" would be better than "TBD" if we
> can't declare a final ruleset name? Even if a TBD is the right thing to
> have in place for now, should it at least be uniqueified (e.g., "TBD1" as
> described in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-5.1)?
>
>
>
> Relatedly, should the reference in
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-13.2 also
> be updated to point at
> http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_20/en_301598v010000a.pdf or
> is that something to be done after the draft exists the working group?
>
>
>
> I gather the remaining TBDs in the IANA Considerations section would be
> set once the draft leaves the working group.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- mike
>
>
>
> --
>
> ----------------------------------
>
> Michael R Head <mrhead@google.com>
>
> http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike
>
> +1-201-BLISTER
>
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>
>


-- 
-vince

--089e011837061cf7e904ece78743
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Gabor,<div><br></div><div>I would be looking for gu=
idance on the IANA section on what the mailing list should be and where it =
would be hosted.</div><div><br></div><div>-vince</div></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 5:04 PM,  <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">G=
abor.Bajko@nokia.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">






<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Yes, we have to get rid o=
f the TBDs before sending the draft to the iesg.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> paws [ma=
ilto:<a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Michael Head<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [paws] Fixing/uniquifying TBD for etsi/ofcom rulesets?<u></=
u><u></u></span></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greetings PAWSians,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Currently 9.2.2.2 (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-9.2.2.2" target=3D"_blank">http://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-9.2.2.2</a>) has &q=
uot;Ruleset name: =A0TBD.&quot;=A0<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is now the right time to pick a name for this rulese=
t? It would be nice to have something in place as the Ofcom whitespace pilo=
t trials will be happening soon and both device and database implementation=
s will be hitting question in the
 near term.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Perhaps &quot;ETSI-EN-301-598-1.0.0-draft&quot; woul=
d be better than &quot;TBD&quot; if we can&#39;t declare a final ruleset na=
me? Even if a TBD is the right thing to have in place for now, should it at=
 least be uniqueified (e.g., &quot;TBD1&quot; as described in=A0<a href=3D"=
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-5.1" target=3D"_blank">http://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc5226#section-5.1</a>)?<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Relatedly, should the reference in=A0<a href=3D"http=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-13.2" target=3D"=
_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-paws-protocol-07#section-13.2=
</a>=A0also be updated to point at=A0<a href=3D"http://www.etsi.org/deliver=
/etsi_en/301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_20/en_301598v010000a.pdf" target=3D"=
_blank">http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301598/01.00.00_2=
0/en_301598v010000a.pdf</a>=A0or
 is that something to be done after the draft exists the working group?<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I gather the remaining TBDs in the IANA Consideratio=
ns section would be set once the draft leaves the working group.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- mike=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:#666666">----------------------------------</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:#666666">Michael R Head &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mrhead@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mrhead@google.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:#666666"><a href=3D"http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~mike</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;c=
olor:#666666">+1-201-BLISTER</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
paws mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>-vince
</div>

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From: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
To: "Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>, "d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com" <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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All,

While I don't necessarily agree with all of Don's reasons, I'm not opposed =
to us adopting some means to shorten the messages.

Here's my proposal:

*         If we want to consider "more concise" / "less wordy" tag names, f=
ine by me.  We can shorten things like "powerDbmPerBw" to "power" or simply=
 "db".

o   Sure, that makes the protocol a wee-bit less "human readable".  However=
, if it makes it more "machine friendly" ala Don's view, that is probably a=
cceptable.  After all: the human should be reading the spec...

o   Note that shortening the longer tags that appear repeatedly (such as in=
 the "spectra" list) will give us the most "bang for the buck" in this effo=
rt.

*         Let's not mess around with *optional* "short form" tags.

o   Either a tag is short or long; let's not add complexity by creating som=
ething like aliases.

*         If we want to consider some actual compression, let's not invent =
something new here.  I haven't heard of any standardize way to compress JSO=
N... but since HTTP is the presumptive transport, why not just rely on "sta=
ndard" HTTP compression?

o   See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_compression

o   I would make support the spec stating this is "recommended" for WS Data=
bases, and optional for WS Clients.

Will actual compression help?  Turns out we've experimented a bit with this=
 even before Don's email, so here's one data point: we found many of the AV=
AIL_SPECTRUM_RESP messages to be in the range of 17k characters.  A simple =
call to a zlib compression algorithm on that string typically shortened it =
to about 1k characters.  (This was specifically using the HTTP compression =
techniques, but I expect the compression rate to be similar.)

Here's my concern:

*         If memory management is an issue in the radios, then don't we act=
ually make things WORSE by compression?  After all, if a 17k message is com=
pressed down to 1k... then the TRANSPORT of the message is sped up... but t=
he message now has to exist in the client's memory - at least briefly - in =
BOTH the compressed and decompressed form.

Just a quick viewpoint to consider:  In my opinion, at the heart of the mat=
ter, the desire of some participants is to make a VERY GENERAL message stru=
cture to AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP that will suit multiple use cases in multiple =
countries.  This is at odds with brevity, and therefore may be at odds with=
 certain radio-implementation constraints.

*         For example, a given device which is only going to operate in the=
 US gains nothing from this verbosity of our current generic structure.  To=
 wit, for US purposes, the whole SpectrumSchedule could be condensed to som=
ething a lot like this:
avail_chans: {5: 4000, 12: 4000, 16: 100, 17: 100, 18: 100, 31: 40, 41: 40}
representing that channels 5 and 12 are available at 4000mW, channels 16, 1=
7, and 18 are available at 100mW, and channels 31 and 41 are available at 4=
0mW.  This alone represents a savings of the majority of the 17k characters=
.  (Admittedly, the "time" aspect of the schedule would still need to be ad=
dressed.)

Dan Harasty


From: paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gabor.Bajko@nokia.co=
m
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 5:26 PM
To: d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

You are asking for a json compression mechanism, for understandable reasons=
. I was actually surprised this issue did not come up earlier.
We first need to have a discussion to see if there's consensus for the need=
 of a compression mechanism, and if yes, then see how do we get one in plac=
e.
I did not find any json compression related work in ietf, but a quick searc=
h found few available algorithms. Do we have on this list JSON experts who =
could give some advice?
Gabor


From: paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Don Joslyn
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:15 AM
To: paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

All,

While working closely with a number of white space radio vendors that wish =
to support the PAWS protocol, some have expressed concerns with the size of=
 paws messages, especially the size of an AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP message that =
supports Ofcom requirements and includes every channel. One issue raised is=
 that when these messages are very large (in this case >14k bytes), requiri=
ng several MTU's of packet data, their radio device does not have enough av=
ailable RAM (or resources) to support the required packet buffering, especi=
ally when their device is being used as a master with several attached slav=
es. A second issue raised is the amount of traffic generated by these contr=
ol messages, reducing the bandwidth available for user data traffic. The wo=
rst case is a master device supporting several slave devices where every de=
vice is required to periodically request a new channel list (and the period=
ic interval requirement seems to be getting smaller). Both issues are serio=
us concerns for these radio vendors, and unless we do something to resolve =
it, they may not be able to support the paws protocol. A further concern fo=
r radio developers is energy expended per transmitted bit.  This is a major=
 issue for battery powered devices.

I would like to propose that we support an optional shortened message forma=
t, by creating a two-character alias for each defined parameter's text name=
, without making any changes to message structure. We would be shortening t=
he parameter text names, not the parameter data values. When a device sends=
 a message to the database with shortened parameter names, the presence of =
shortened parameter names could serve as a trigger for the database to repl=
y to the device using shortened parameter names in the reply message.

This would be fairly easy to express in the current document by adding a pa=
ragraph to explain the support for shortened messages and adding a two-char=
acter alias in parenthesis next to each defined parameter name. I have atta=
ched an example to this email as a markup to page 40 of the version 7 draft=
.
In the example, I have defined two-character aliases for several parameter =
names, and included a sample "spectrum" section that uses shortened paramet=
er names.

The sample uses the following aliases:

"spectrum" =3D "sp"
"resolutionBwHz" =3D "bw"
"profiles" =3D "pf"
"freqHz" =3D "hz"
"powerDbmPerBw" =3D "pw"

We could define the shortened parameter names and make support of shortened=
 messages optional to allow database owners to decide if they want to suppo=
rt shortened messages or not.

If there is support for this proposal, I would volunteer to update the vers=
ion 7 draft to help move it forward.

Thank you,
Don

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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>All,<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>While I d=
on&#8217;t necessarily agree with all of Don&#8217;s reasons, I&#8217;m not=
 opposed to us adopting some means to shorten the messages.<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Here&#8217;s =
my proposal:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent=
:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-f=
amily:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7=
.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </=
span></span></span><![endif]>If we want to consider &#8220;more concise&#82=
21; / &#8220;less wordy&#8221; tag names, fine by me.&nbsp; We can shorten =
things like &#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#8221; to &#8220;power&#8221; or simply &#=
8220;db&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-l=
eft:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>o=
<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></s=
pan><![endif]>Sure, that makes the protocol a wee-bit less &#8220;human rea=
dable&#8221;.&nbsp; However, if it makes it more &#8220;machine friendly&#8=
221; ala Don&#8217;s view, that is probably acceptable.&nbsp; After all: th=
e human should be reading the spec&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListP=
aragraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level2 l=
fo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><span s=
tyle=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbs=
p;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>Note that shortening the longer tag=
s that appear repeatedly (such as in the &#8220;spectra&#8221; list) will g=
ive us the most &#8220;bang for the buck&#8221; in this effort.<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span styl=
e=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![en=
dif]>Let&#8217;s not mess around with *<b>optional</b>* &#8220;short form&#=
8221; tags.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margi=
n-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1'><![if !supportList=
s]><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore=
'>o<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span>=
</span><![endif]>Either a tag is short or long; let&#8217;s not add complex=
ity by creating something like aliases.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListPar=
agraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportL=
ists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&m=
iddot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>If we want to consi=
der some actual compression, let&#8217;s not invent something new here.&nbs=
p; I haven&#8217;t heard of any standardize way to compress JSON&#8230; but=
 since HTTP is the presumptive transport, why not just rely on &#8220;stand=
ard&#8221; HTTP compression?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph styl=
e=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1'><![if !s=
upportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><span style=3D'mso-l=
ist:Ignore'>o<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </sp=
an></span></span><![endif]>See: <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTT=
P_compression"><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wik=
i/HTTP_compression</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1'><![if !=
supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><span style=3D'mso-=
list:Ignore'>o<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </s=
pan></span></span><![endif]>I would make support the spec stating this is &=
#8220;recommended&#8221; for WS Databases, and optional for WS Clients.<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>W=
ill actual compression help?&nbsp; Turns out we&#8217;ve experimented a bit=
 with this even before Don&#8217;s email, so here&#8217;s one data point: w=
e found many of the AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP messages to be in the range of 17k =
characters.&nbsp; A simple call to a zlib compression algorithm on that str=
ing typically shortened it to about 1k characters.&nbsp; (This was specific=
ally using the HTTP compression techniques, but I expect the compression ra=
te to be similar.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Here&#8217;s my concern:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoL=
istParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !su=
pportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Igno=
re'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>If memory man=
agement is an issue in the radios, then don&#8217;t we actually make things=
 WORSE by compression?&nbsp; After all, if a 17k message is compressed down=
 to 1k&#8230; then the TRANSPORT of the message is sped up&#8230; but the m=
essage now has to exist in the client&#8217;s memory &#8211; at least brief=
ly &#8211; in BOTH the compressed and decompressed form.<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Just a quick vie=
wpoint to consider:&nbsp; In my opinion, at the heart of the matter, the de=
sire of some participants is to make a VERY GENERAL message structure to AV=
AIL_SPECTRUM_RESP that will suit multiple use cases in multiple countries.&=
nbsp; This is at odds with brevity, and therefore may be at odds with certa=
in radio-implementation constraints.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagr=
aph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportList=
s]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&midd=
ot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>For example, a given d=
evice which is only going to operate in the US gains nothing from this verb=
osity of our current generic structure.&nbsp; To wit, for US purposes, the =
whole SpectrumSchedule could be condensed to something a lot like this:<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'=
font-family:"Courier New"'>avail_chans: {5: 4000, 12: 4000, 16: 100, 17: 10=
0, 18: 100, 31: 40, 41: 40}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:.5in'>representing that channels 5 and 12 are available at =
4000mW, channels 16, 17, and 18 are available at 100mW, and channels 31 and=
 41 are available at 40mW.&nbsp; This alone represents a savings of the maj=
ority of the 17k characters.&nbsp; (Admittedly, the &#8220;time&#8221; aspe=
ct of the schedule would still need to be addressed.)<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dan Harasty<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0p=
t;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> paws [mailto:paws-bou=
nces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com<br><b>Sent:</b> Fr=
iday, December 06, 2013 5:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com; =
paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support =
shortened message format<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'=
>You are asking for a json compression mechan</span><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>ism, for understandable reasons. I was actually sur=
prised this issue did not come up earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>We first need to h=
ave a discussion to see if there&#8217;s consensus for the need of a compre=
ssion mechanism, and if yes, then see how do we get one in place.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F4=
97D'>I did not find any json compression related work in ietf, but a quick =
search found few available algorithms. Do we have on this list JSON experts=
 who could give some advice?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Gabor<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF=
 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> paws [<a href=3D=
"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Beha=
lf Of </b>ext Don Joslyn<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 06, 2013 11:15 AM=
<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Sub=
ject:</b> [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format<o:=
p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>All,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>While working closely with a number of white spac=
e radio vendors that wish to support the PAWS protocol, some have expressed=
 concerns with the size of paws messages, especially the size of an AVAIL_S=
PECTRUM_RESP message that supports Ofcom requirements and includes every ch=
annel. One issue raised is that when these messages are very large (in this=
 case &gt;14k bytes), requiring several MTU&#8217;s of packet data, their r=
adio device does not have enough available RAM (or resources) to support th=
e required packet buffering, especially when their device is being used as =
a master with several attached slaves. A second issue raised is the amount =
of traffic generated by these control messages, reducing the bandwidth avai=
lable for user data traffic. The worst case is a master device supporting s=
everal slave devices where every device is required to periodically request=
 a new channel list (and the periodic interval requirement seems to be gett=
ing smaller). Both issues are serious concerns for these radio vendors, and=
 unless we do something to resolve it, they may not be able to support the =
paws protocol. A further concern for radio developers is energy expended pe=
r transmitted bit.&nbsp; This is a major issue for battery powered devices.=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al>I would like to propose that we support an optional shortened message fo=
rmat, by creating a two-character alias for each defined parameter&#8217;s =
text name, without making any changes to message structure. We would be sho=
rtening the parameter text names, not the parameter data values. When a dev=
ice sends a message to the database with shortened parameter names, the pre=
sence of shortened parameter names could serve as a trigger for the databas=
e to reply to the device using shortened parameter names in the reply messa=
ge.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal>This would be fairly easy to express in the current document by addin=
g a paragraph to explain the support for shortened messages and adding a tw=
o-character alias in parenthesis next to each defined parameter name. I hav=
e attached an example to this email as a markup to page 40 of the version 7=
 draft.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In the example, I have defined t=
wo-character aliases for several parameter names, and included a sample &#8=
220;spectrum&#8221; section that uses shortened parameter names.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The samp=
le uses the following aliases:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;spectrum&#8221; =3D &#8220;sp&#8221=
;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;resolutionBwHz&#8221; =3D &#822=
0;bw&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;profiles&#8221; =3D &=
#8220;pf&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;freqHz&#8221; =3D=
 &#8220;hz&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#=
8221; =3D &#8220;pw&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We could define the shortened parameter names =
and make support of shortened messages optional to allow database owners to=
 decide if they want to support shortened messages or not.<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If there is su=
pport for this proposal, I would volunteer to update the version 7 draft to=
 help move it forward.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Don<=
o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>=

--_000_EC510C021D06A34C92F5A5A488B5290B0CF882CCrrcatsexmb2atsa_--

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From: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: proposal to update PAWS doc regarding vCard
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Subject: [paws] proposal to update PAWS doc regarding vCard
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PAWS WG,

The team I'm on is active both with PAWS, and with the other US WS DBAs in =
the "InterOp forum" to define the exchange of records between US WS DBAs.

The PAWS spec and InterOp specs are just slightly out-of-sync on how vCard =
objects are handled.

*         They state different subsets are "the only supported fields"

o   Example: InterOp states "N" is supported, PAWS states it is excluded.

*         They state different datatype restrictions.

o   Example: InterOp allows only "text" and "integer", PAWS allows "uri" ty=
pes.

*         Neither states how a recipient is supposed to handle/reject a mes=
sage that has "extra" fields.

But most importantly, IMO, there is no particular implementation advantage =
to an "approved subset"; in fact, it tends to complicate things.  In effect=
, the implementation required to add ad-hoc validations (to determine that =
certain fields are NOT present) , either custom validations after the use o=
f a generic vCard library / parser, or implementation of a custom vCard par=
ser.

Furthermore, everywhere else (outside the vCard) PAWS expressly requires me=
ssage recipients to "ignore all parameters it does not understand".   Why n=
ot apply the same design concept to parsing of vCards?

As such I'd like to propose to PAWS a different approach:

*         The sender must send valid vCard, and must include anything requi=
red by its regulatory domain.  (All optional fields allowed by the vCard sp=
ec are expressly allowed in the InterOp/PAWS messages.)

*         The recipient must parse/accept any valid vCard, and may ignore f=
ields that are not required by the regulatory domain.

This approach is MUCH simpler to state, MUCH simpler to implement, much mor=
e consistent with current practices (allow sending optional fields), and - =
if approved by both - removes the disparities between the two specs regardi=
ng encoding of contacts.

I've already presented the same to the US InterOp team, and believe there i=
s general support for this approach in the InterOp spec.

If, after a discussion here, there is general agreement, I'm willing to dra=
ft updated text for Section "5.5.  DeviceOwner"... and the whole of it will=
 probably be shorter than this email!

Dan Harasty




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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'c=
olor:#1F497D'>PAWS WG,</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The team I&#82=
17;m on is </span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>active both with PAWS, and =
with the other US WS DBAs in the &#8220;InterOp forum&#8221; to define the =
exchange of records between US WS DBAs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The PAWS spec and InterOp specs =
are just slightly out-of-sync on how vCard objects are handled.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:=
l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol;colo=
r:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0p=
t "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </spa=
n></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>They state differen=
t subsets are &#8220;the only supported fields&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;m=
so-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Co=
urier New";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style=3D'f=
ont:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><s=
pan style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Example: InterOp states &#8220;N&#8221; is supp=
orted, PAWS states it is excluded.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListP=
aragraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !suppor=
tLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso=
-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><sp=
an style=3D'color:#1F497D'>They state different datatype restrictions.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;tex=
t-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore=
'>o<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span>=
</span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Example: InterOp allows only=
 &#8220;text&#8221; and &#8220;integer&#8221;, PAWS allows &#8220;uri&#8221=
; types.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-ind=
ent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'fon=
t-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<spa=
n style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'=
>Neither states how a recipient is supposed to handle/reject a message that=
 has &#8220;extra&#8221; fields.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>But most importantly, IMO, there is no pa=
rticular implementation advantage to an &#8220;approved subset&#8221;; in f=
act, it tends to complicate things</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>.&nb=
sp; In effect, the implementation <i>required </i>to add ad-hoc validations=
 (to determine that certain fields are NOT present) , either custom validat=
ions after the use of a </span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>generic vCard =
library / parser, or implementation of a custom vCard parser.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Furthermore,=
 everywhere else (outside the vCard) PAWS expressly <i>requires</i> message=
 recipients to &#8220;ignore all parameters it does not understand&#8221;.&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Why not apply the same design concept to parsing of vCards?<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As=
 such I&#8217;d like to propose to PAWS</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'=
> </span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>a different approach:<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 =
level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol;color:#=
1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "=
Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><=
/span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The sender must send v=
alid vCard, and must include anything required by its regulatory domain.&nb=
sp; (All optional fields allowed by the vCard spec are expressly allowed in=
 the InterOp/PAWS messages.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagra=
ph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists=
]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:=
Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span sty=
le=3D'color:#1F497D'>The recipient must parse/accept any valid vCard, and m=
ay ignore fields that are not required by the regulatory domain.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>This appr=
oach is MUCH simpler to state, MUCH simpler to implement, much more consist=
ent with current practices (allow sending optional fields), and &#8211; if =
approved by both &#8211; removes the disparities between the two specs rega=
rding encoding of contacts.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ve already presented the same to the U=
S InterOp team, and believe there is general support for this approach in t=
he InterOp spec.</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If, after a discussi=
on here, there is general agreement, I&#8217;m willing to draft updated tex=
t for Section &#8220;5.5.&nbsp; DeviceOwner&#8221;&#8230; and the whole of =
it will probably be shorter than this email!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Dan</span><span style=3D'col=
or:#1F497D'> Harasty</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>=

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From dharasty@appcomsci.com  Mon Dec  9 09:19:00 2013
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From: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: consider encoding numbers as integers where possible
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Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 17:18:51 +0000
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Subject: [paws] consider encoding numbers as integers where possible
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PAWS WG,

I've been in some discussions where PAWS implementers have stated the follo=
wing preferences:


1.       Certain values in PAWS - such as "startHz", "stopHz", "resolutionB=
wHz", "powerDbmPerBw" - should be expressed in messages as integers rather =
than floats.

*         Example, encode the "startHz" of Channel 43 with the integer nota=
tion "644000000", rather than floating point notation such as "644e6" or "6=
.44e8".

*         Reason: internal representation of floats are rarely exact, and e=
quality operations are often complicated by this.


2.       Values such as "startHz" and "stopHz" should be constrained to act=
ual television channel band edges - at least in the US.

*         Reason: as a practical matter, as there is no concept - at this t=
ime - that the US databases will ever state the availability of "part" of a=
 US TV channel.

Both afford implementation simplification for the WS devices, and thus I th=
ink they deserve some discussion.  Is there a way to address this in the sp=
ec without removing future flexibility, or affecting use cases outside the =
US?

Here is one possibility:


A.      Address the "integer issue" with language to the effect of: "when e=
ncoding numeric values that are integers, the sender MUST use the JSON enco=
ding that avoids its representation as a float - that is, it must not use e=
ither the decimal point nor the exponent part".

(This is intentionally less draconian than stating that certain values like=
 "startHz" and "powerDbmPerBw" MUST be integers; rather "when they are inte=
gers, represent them as such".)


B.      Address the "whole channel issue" by adding verbiage to the meaning=
 of the "FCC 2010 Ruleset" that states expressly that "startHz" and "stopHz=
" values must be constrained to actual U.S. television channel band edges.

Thoughts?

Dan Harasty

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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>PAWS WG,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ve been in some discussions where PAW=
S implementers have stated the following preferences:<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListP=
aragraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !suppor=
tLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt =
"Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></spa=
n><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-ser=
if";color:#1F497D'>Certain values in PAWS &#8211; such as &#8220;startHz&#8=
221;, &#8220;stopHz&#8221;, &#8220;resolutionBwHz&#8221;, &#8220;powerDbmPe=
rBw&#8221; &#8211; should be expressed in messages as integers rather than =
floats.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-le=
ft:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><=
span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span styl=
e=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![en=
dif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>Example, encode the &#8220;startHz&#8221; of Channel 43 with th=
e integer notation &#8220;644000000&#8221;, rather than floating point nota=
tion such as &#8220;644e6&#8221; or &#8220;6.44e8&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25=
in;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&mi=
ddot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Reason: inter=
nal representation of floats are rarely exact, and equality operations are =
often complicated by this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-inde=
nt:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=
=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D=
'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Values =
such as &#8220;startHz&#8221; and &#8220;stopHz&#8221; should be constraine=
d to actual television channel band edges &#8211; at least in the US.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text=
-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D=
'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list=
:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>R=
eason: as a practical matter, as there is no concept &#8211; at this time &=
#8211; that the US databases will ever state the availability of &#8220;par=
t&#8221; of a US TV channel.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Both afford impl=
ementation simplification for the WS devices, and thus I think they deserve=
 some discussion.&nbsp; Is there a way to address this in the spec without =
removing future flexibility, or affecting use cases outside the US?<o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here is one possibility: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagr=
aph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportList=
s]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>A.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Time=
s New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>Address the &#8220;integer issue&#8221; with language to the effect=
 of: &#8220;when encoding numeric values that are integers, the sender MUST=
 use the JSON encoding that avoids its representation as a float &#8211; th=
at is, it must not use either the decimal point nor the exponent part&#8221=
;.<br><br>(This is intentionally less draconian than stating that certain v=
alues like &#8220;startHz&#8221; and &#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#8221; MUST be in=
tegers; rather &#8220;when they are integers, represent them as such&#8221;=
.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 le=
vel1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>B.<s=
pan style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
/span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Address the &#8220;whole channel issue=
&#8221; by adding verbiage to the meaning of the &#8220;FCC 2010 Ruleset&#8=
221; that states expressly that &#8220;startHz&#8221; and &#8220;stopHz&#82=
21; values must be constrained to actual U.S. television channel band edges=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dan=
 Harasty</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>=

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Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:56:51 -0800
Message-ID: <CABEV9RMiV7DpohRvWFoHSDRmg6KrULX1HOkDQZaa+pRP+acFLw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
To: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
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Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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All,

Shortened Names:
- I agree with Dan that we should not have aliases for parameter names. We
should just decide on the short names
- I would only shorten the names that are highly repeated, such as those in
the Spectrum message, as Don suggested.

Compression:
- I agree we should just rely on standard HTTP compression and, as Dan
suggests:
   - =93Recommended=94 for WS Databases, and optional for WS Clients.


On a separate note, HTTPS is required. Are the radio vendors concerned
about supporting that?

-vince


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <dharasty@appcomsci.com>w=
rote:

> All,
>
>
>
> While I don=92t necessarily agree with all of Don=92s reasons, I=92m not =
opposed
> to us adopting some means to shorten the messages.
>
>
>
> Here=92s my proposal:
>
> =B7         If we want to consider =93more concise=94 / =93less wordy=94 =
tag names,
> fine by me.  We can shorten things like =93powerDbmPerBw=94 to =93power=
=94 or
> simply =93db=94.
>
> o   Sure, that makes the protocol a wee-bit less =93human readable=94.
> However, if it makes it more =93machine friendly=94 ala Don=92s view, tha=
t is
> probably acceptable.  After all: the human should be reading the spec=85
>
> o   Note that shortening the longer tags that appear repeatedly (such as
> in the =93spectra=94 list) will give us the most =93bang for the buck=94 =
in this
> effort.
>
> =B7         Let=92s not mess around with **optional** =93short form=94 ta=
gs.
>
> o   Either a tag is short or long; let=92s not add complexity by creating
> something like aliases.
>
> =B7         If we want to consider some actual compression, let=92s not
> invent something new here.  I haven=92t heard of any standardize way to
> compress JSON=85 but since HTTP is the presumptive transport, why not jus=
t
> rely on =93standard=94 HTTP compression?
>
> o   See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_compression
>
> o   I would make support the spec stating this is =93recommended=94 for W=
S
> Databases, and optional for WS Clients.
>
>
>
> Will actual compression help?  Turns out we=92ve experimented a bit with
> this even before Don=92s email, so here=92s one data point: we found many=
 of
> the AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP messages to be in the range of 17k characters.  A
> simple call to a zlib compression algorithm on that string typically
> shortened it to about 1k characters.  (This was specifically using the HT=
TP
> compression techniques, but I expect the compression rate to be similar.)
>
>
>
> Here=92s my concern:
>
> =B7         If memory management is an issue in the radios, then don=92t =
we
> actually make things WORSE by compression?  After all, if a 17k message i=
s
> compressed down to 1k=85 then the TRANSPORT of the message is sped up=85 =
but
> the message now has to exist in the client=92s memory =96 at least briefl=
y =96 in
> BOTH the compressed and decompressed form.
>
>
>
> Just a quick viewpoint to consider:  In my opinion, at the heart of the
> matter, the desire of some participants is to make a VERY GENERAL message
> structure to AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP that will suit multiple use cases in
> multiple countries.  This is at odds with brevity, and therefore may be a=
t
> odds with certain radio-implementation constraints.
>
> =B7         For example, a given device which is only going to operate in
> the US gains nothing from this verbosity of our current generic structure=
.
> To wit, for US purposes, the whole SpectrumSchedule could be condensed to
> something a lot like this:
>
> avail_chans: {5: 4000, 12: 4000, 16: 100, 17: 100, 18: 100, 31: 40, 41: 4=
0}
>
> representing that channels 5 and 12 are available at 4000mW, channels 16,
> 17, and 18 are available at 100mW, and channels 31 and 41 are available a=
t
> 40mW.  This alone represents a savings of the majority of the 17k
> characters.  (Admittedly, the =93time=94 aspect of the schedule would sti=
ll
> need to be addressed.)
>
>
>
> Dan Harasty
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *
> Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com
> *Sent:* Friday, December 06, 2013 5:26 PM
> *To:* d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com; paws@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message
> format
>
>
>
> You are asking for a json compression mechanism, for understandable
> reasons. I was actually surprised this issue did not come up earlier.
>
> We first need to have a discussion to see if there=92s consensus for the
> need of a compression mechanism, and if yes, then see how do we get one i=
n
> place.
>
> I did not find any json compression related work in ietf, but a quick
> search found few available algorithms. Do we have on this list JSON exper=
ts
> who could give some advice?
>
> Gabor
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org <paws-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *ext Don Joslyn
> *Sent:* Friday, December 06, 2013 11:15 AM
> *To:* paws@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
>
>
>
> All,
>
>
>
> While working closely with a number of white space radio vendors that wis=
h
> to support the PAWS protocol, some have expressed concerns with the size =
of
> paws messages, especially the size of an AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP message that
> supports Ofcom requirements and includes every channel. One issue raised =
is
> that when these messages are very large (in this case >14k bytes),
> requiring several MTU=92s of packet data, their radio device does not hav=
e
> enough available RAM (or resources) to support the required packet
> buffering, especially when their device is being used as a master with
> several attached slaves. A second issue raised is the amount of traffic
> generated by these control messages, reducing the bandwidth available for
> user data traffic. The worst case is a master device supporting several
> slave devices where every device is required to periodically request a ne=
w
> channel list (and the periodic interval requirement seems to be getting
> smaller). Both issues are serious concerns for these radio vendors, and
> unless we do something to resolve it, they may not be able to support the
> paws protocol. A further concern for radio developers is energy expended
> per transmitted bit.  This is a major issue for battery powered devices.
>
>
>
> I would like to propose that we support an optional shortened message
> format, by creating a two-character alias for each defined parameter=92s =
text
> name, without making any changes to message structure. We would be
> shortening the parameter text names, not the parameter data values. When =
a
> device sends a message to the database with shortened parameter names, th=
e
> presence of shortened parameter names could serve as a trigger for the
> database to reply to the device using shortened parameter names in the
> reply message.
>
>
>
> This would be fairly easy to express in the current document by adding a
> paragraph to explain the support for shortened messages and adding a
> two-character alias in parenthesis next to each defined parameter name. I
> have attached an example to this email as a markup to page 40 of the
> version 7 draft.
>
> In the example, I have defined two-character aliases for several paramete=
r
> names, and included a sample =93spectrum=94 section that uses shortened
> parameter names.
>
>
>
> The sample uses the following aliases:
>
>
>
> =93spectrum=94 =3D =93sp=94
>
> =93resolutionBwHz=94 =3D =93bw=94
>
> =93profiles=94 =3D =93pf=94
>
> =93freqHz=94 =3D =93hz=94
>
> =93powerDbmPerBw=94 =3D =93pw=94
>
>
>
> We could define the shortened parameter names and make support of
> shortened messages optional to allow database owners to decide if they wa=
nt
> to support shortened messages or not.
>
>
>
> If there is support for this proposal, I would volunteer to update the
> version 7 draft to help move it forward.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Don
>
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>
>


--=20
-vince

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<div dir=3D"ltr">All,<div><br></div><div>Shortened Names:</div><div>- I agr=
ee with Dan that we should not have aliases for parameter names. We should =
just decide on the short names</div><div>- I would only shorten the names t=
hat are highly repeated, such as those in the Spectrum message, as Don sugg=
ested.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Compression:</div><div>- I agree we should just rely on=
 standard HTTP compression and, as Dan suggests:</div><div>=A0 =A0-=A0<span=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">=93Recommended=94 fo=
r WS Databases, and optional for WS Clients.</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span=
></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br=
></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13=
px">On a separate note,=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-seri=
f;font-size:13px">HTTPS is required. Are the radio vendors concerned about =
supporting that?=A0</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span=
></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">-vi=
nce</span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com" target=3D"_blank">dharasty@appcomsci=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">All,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">While I don=92t necessarily agree with all of Don=92s rea=
sons, I=92m not opposed to us adopting some means to shorten the messages.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here=92s=
 my proposal:<u></u><u></u></p><p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"=
><span>=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>If we want to consider =93more =
concise=94 / =93less wordy=94 tag names, fine by me.=A0 We can shorten thin=
gs like =93powerDbmPerBw=94 to =93power=94 or simply =93db=94.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><span>o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>Sure, that makes the protocol a wee-bi=
t less =93human readable=94.=A0 However, if it makes it more =93machine fri=
endly=94 ala Don=92s view, that is probably acceptable.=A0 After all: the h=
uman should be reading the spec=85<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><span>o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>Note that shortening the longer tags t=
hat appear repeatedly (such as in the =93spectra=94 list) will give us the =
most =93bang for the buck=94 in this effort.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></=
span><u></u>Let=92s not mess around with *<b>optional</b>* =93short form=94=
 tags.=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><span>o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>Either a tag is short or long; let=92s=
 not add complexity by creating something like aliases.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></=
span><u></u>If we want to consider some actual compression, let=92s not inv=
ent something new here.=A0 I haven=92t heard of any standardize way to comp=
ress JSON=85 but since HTTP is the presumptive transport, why not just rely=
 on =93standard=94 HTTP compression?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><span>o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>See: <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.or=
g/wiki/HTTP_compression" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"=
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_compression</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><span>o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
">=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>I would make support the spec stating =
this is =93recommended=94 for WS Databases, and optional for WS Clients.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Will act=
ual compression help?=A0 Turns out we=92ve experimented a bit with this eve=
n before Don=92s email, so here=92s one data point: we found many of the AV=
AIL_SPECTRUM_RESP messages to be in the range of 17k characters.=A0 A simpl=
e call to a zlib compression algorithm on that string typically shortened i=
t to about 1k characters.=A0 (This was specifically using the HTTP compress=
ion techniques, but I expect the compression rate to be similar.)<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here=92s=
 my concern:<u></u><u></u></p><p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">=
<span>=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>If memory management is an issu=
e in the radios, then don=92t we actually make things WORSE by compression?=
=A0 After all, if a 17k message is compressed down to 1k=85 then the TRANSP=
ORT of the message is sped up=85 but the message now has to exist in the cl=
ient=92s memory =96 at least briefly =96 in BOTH the compressed and decompr=
essed form.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Just a q=
uick viewpoint to consider:=A0 In my opinion, at the heart of the matter, t=
he desire of some participants is to make a VERY GENERAL message structure =
to AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP that will suit multiple use cases in multiple countr=
ies.=A0 This is at odds with brevity, and therefore may be at odds with cer=
tain radio-implementation constraints.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font:7=
.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></=
span><u></u>For example, a given device which is only going to operate in t=
he US gains nothing from this verbosity of our current generic structure.=
=A0 To wit, for US purposes, the whole SpectrumSchedule could be condensed =
to something a lot like this:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;">avail_chans: {5: 4000, 12: 4000, 16: 100, 17: 1=
00, 18: 100, 31: 40, 41: 40}<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
representing that channels 5 and 12 are available at 4000mW, channels 16, 1=
7, and 18 are available at 100mW, and channels 31 and 41 are available at 4=
0mW.=A0 This alone represents a savings of the majority of the 17k characte=
rs.=A0 (Admittedly, the =93time=94 aspect of the schedule would still need =
to be addressed.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dan Hara=
sty<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><=
u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f4=
97d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;"> paws [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">paws-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:Gabor.B=
ajko@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 06, 2013 5:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mai=
lto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com" target=3D"_blank">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message=
 format<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#1f497d">You are asking for a json compression mechan</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1f497d">ism, for understandable reasons. I was=
 actually surprised this issue did not come up earlier.<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1f497d">We fi=
rst need to have a discussion to see if there=92s consensus for the need of=
 a compression mechanism, and if yes, then see how do we get one in place.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1f497d">I did=
 not find any json compression related work in ietf, but a quick search fou=
nd few available algorithms. Do we have on this list JSON experts who could=
 give some advice?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#1f497d">Gabor=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.0pt;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;"> paws [<a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mail=
to:paws-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Don Joslyn<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 06, 2013 11:15 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:paws@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> =
[paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
</div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">All,<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">While working closely with a number of white space radio =
vendors that wish to support the PAWS protocol, some have expressed concern=
s with the size of paws messages, especially the size of an AVAIL_SPECTRUM_=
RESP message that supports Ofcom requirements and includes every channel. O=
ne issue raised is that when these messages are very large (in this case &g=
t;14k bytes), requiring several MTU=92s of packet data, their radio device =
does not have enough available RAM (or resources) to support the required p=
acket buffering, especially when their device is being used as a master wit=
h several attached slaves. A second issue raised is the amount of traffic g=
enerated by these control messages, reducing the bandwidth available for us=
er data traffic. The worst case is a master device supporting several slave=
 devices where every device is required to periodically request a new chann=
el list (and the periodic interval requirement seems to be getting smaller)=
. Both issues are serious concerns for these radio vendors, and unless we d=
o something to resolve it, they may not be able to support the paws protoco=
l. A further concern for radio developers is energy expended per transmitte=
d bit.=A0 This is a major issue for battery powered devices.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would =
like to propose that we support an optional shortened message format, by cr=
eating a two-character alias for each defined parameter=92s text name, with=
out making any changes to message structure. We would be shortening the par=
ameter text names, not the parameter data values. When a device sends a mes=
sage to the database with shortened parameter names, the presence of shorte=
ned parameter names could serve as a trigger for the database to reply to t=
he device using shortened parameter names in the reply message.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">This wou=
ld be fairly easy to express in the current document by adding a paragraph =
to explain the support for shortened messages and adding a two-character al=
ias in parenthesis next to each defined parameter name. I have attached an =
example to this email as a markup to page 40 of the version 7 draft.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the example, I have defined two-character aliases=
 for several parameter names, and included a sample =93spectrum=94 section =
that uses shortened parameter names.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The sample uses the following aliases:<u></u><u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=93s=
pectrum=94 =3D =93sp=94<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=93resoluti=
onBwHz=94 =3D =93bw=94<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=93profiles=94 =3D =93pf=94<u></u><u></u></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal">=93freqHz=94 =3D =93hz=94<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">=93powerDbmPerBw=94 =3D =93pw=94<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">
We could define the shortened parameter names and make support of shortened=
 messages optional to allow database owners to decide if they want to suppo=
rt shortened messages or not.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If there is support for this proposal, I would volun=
teer to update the version 7 draft to help move it forward.<u></u><u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank =
you,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Don<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><br>___=
____________________________________________<br>
paws mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>-vince
</div>

--001a1135f7bcfa715304ed289d32--

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From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
To: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] proposal to update PAWS doc regarding vCard
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Dan,

I think not restricting to a subset of vCard fields is a good idea. But I
believe it's still reasonable to require a minimum set of fields.

The current text for Section 5.5 of draft 07 reads:

   All contact information MUST be expressed using the structure defined
   by the vCard Format Specification [RFC6350].  Only the contact fields
   of vCard are supported:

   fn Full name of an individual
   org  Name of the organization
   adr  Address fields
   tel  Telephone numbers
   email  Email addresses


I think that word, "Only", was a poor choice on my part. The intent was not
to restrict to only these fields
but to indicate that these are minimum required fields.

A regulatory domain may require additional fields, but those should be
documented in the
IANA Considerations section under the appropriate Ruleset ID sections.

It might also make sense to add statements, such as,

  Names of organizations MUST use the "org" field. Names of individuals
MUST use the "fn" field.

-vince



On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <dharasty@appcomsci.com>w=
rote:

> PAWS WG,
>
>
>
> The team I=92m on is active both with PAWS, and with the other US WS DBAs
> in the =93InterOp forum=94 to define the exchange of records between US W=
S DBAs.
>
>
>
> The PAWS spec and InterOp specs are just slightly out-of-sync on how vCar=
d
> objects are handled.
>
> =B7         They state different subsets are =93the only supported fields=
=94
>
> o   Example: InterOp states =93N=94 is supported, PAWS states it is exclu=
ded.
>
> =B7         They state different datatype restrictions.
>
> o   Example: InterOp allows only =93text=94 and =93integer=94, PAWS allow=
s =93uri=94
> types.
>
> =B7         Neither states how a recipient is supposed to handle/reject a
> message that has =93extra=94 fields.
>
>
>
> But most importantly, IMO, there is no particular implementation advantag=
e
> to an =93approved subset=94; in fact, it tends to complicate things.  In
> effect, the implementation *required *to add ad-hoc validations (to
> determine that certain fields are NOT present) , either custom validation=
s
> after the use of a generic vCard library / parser, or implementation of a
> custom vCard parser.
>
>
>
> Furthermore, everywhere else (outside the vCard) PAWS expressly *requires=
*message recipients to =93ignore all parameters it does not understand=94. =
  Why
> not apply the same design concept to parsing of vCards?
>
>
>
> As such I=92d like to propose to PAWS a different approach:
>
> =B7         The sender must send valid vCard, and must include anything
> required by its regulatory domain.  (All optional fields allowed by the
> vCard spec are expressly allowed in the InterOp/PAWS messages.)
>
> =B7         The recipient must parse/accept any valid vCard, and may igno=
re
> fields that are not required by the regulatory domain.
>
>
>
> This approach is MUCH simpler to state, MUCH simpler to implement, much
> more consistent with current practices (allow sending optional fields), a=
nd
> =96 if approved by both =96 removes the disparities between the two specs
> regarding encoding of contacts.
>
>
>
> I=92ve already presented the same to the US InterOp team, and believe the=
re
> is general support for this approach in the InterOp spec.
>
>
>
> If, after a discussion here, there is general agreement, I=92m willing to
> draft updated text for Section =935.5.  DeviceOwner=94=85 and the whole o=
f it
> will probably be shorter than this email!
>
>
>
> Dan Harasty
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>
>


--=20
-vince

--047d7b2e4c02d9576f04ed28ffd5
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dan,<div><br></div><div>I think not restricting to a subse=
t of vCard fields is a good idea. But I believe it&#39;s still reasonable t=
o require a minimum set of fields.</div><div><br></div><div>The current tex=
t for Section 5.5 of draft 07 reads:</div>
<div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);word-wrap:break-word;whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">   All contact information MUST be expressed using the s=
tructure defined
   by the vCard Format Specification [RFC6350].  Only the contact fields
   of vCard are supported:

   fn Full name of an individual
   org  Name of the organization
   adr  Address fields
   tel  Telephone numbers
   email  Email addresses
</pre></div><div><br></div><div>I think that word, &quot;Only&quot;, was a =
poor choice on my part. The intent was not to restrict to only these fields=
</div><div>but to indicate that these are minimum required fields.</div>
<div><br></div><div>A regulatory domain may require additional fields, but =
those should be documented in the</div><div>IANA Considerations section und=
er the appropriate Ruleset ID sections.</div><div><br></div><div>It might a=
lso make sense to add statements, such as,</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0 Names of organizations MUST use the &quot;org&quot;=
 field. Names of individuals MUST use the &quot;fn&quot; field.</div><div><=
br></div><div>-vince</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Harasty, Dan=
iel J <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dharasty@appcomsci.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">PAWS WG,</span><span style=3D"color:#1f49=
7d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1=
f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The team I=92m on is <=
/span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">active both with PAWS, and with the oth=
er US WS DBAs in the =93InterOp forum=94 to define the exchange of records =
between US WS DBAs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The PAWS spec an=
d InterOp specs are just slightly out-of-sync on how vCard objects are hand=
led.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>=B7<span s=
tyle=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </=
span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">They state differen=
t subsets are =93the only supported fields=94<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:#1f497d"><span>o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;">=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f=
497d">Example: InterOp states =93N=94 is supported, PAWS states it is exclu=
ded.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>=B7<span s=
tyle=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </=
span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">They state differen=
t datatype restrictions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:#1f497d"><span>o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;">=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f=
497d">Example: InterOp allows only =93text=94 and =93integer=94, PAWS allow=
s =93uri=94 types.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>=B7<span s=
tyle=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </=
span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Neither states how =
a recipient is supposed to handle/reject a message that has =93extra=94 fie=
lds.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">But most importa=
ntly, IMO, there is no particular implementation advantage to an =93approve=
d subset=94; in fact, it tends to complicate things</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:#1f497d">.=A0 In effect, the implementation <i>required </i>to add ad-h=
oc validations (to determine that certain fields are NOT present) , either =
custom validations after the use of a </span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=
generic vCard library / parser, or implementation of a custom vCard parser.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Furthermore, eve=
rywhere else (outside the vCard) PAWS expressly <i>requires</i> message rec=
ipients to =93ignore all parameters it does not understand=94.=A0=A0 Why no=
t apply the same design concept to parsing of vCards?<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">As such I=92d li=
ke to propose to PAWS</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"> </span><span sty=
le=3D"color:#1f497d">a different approach:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>=B7<span s=
tyle=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </=
span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The sender must sen=
d valid vCard, and must include anything required by its regulatory domain.=
=A0 (All optional fields allowed by the vCard spec are expressly allowed in=
 the InterOp/PAWS messages.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>=B7<span s=
tyle=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </=
span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The recipient must =
parse/accept any valid vCard, and may ignore fields that are not required b=
y the regulatory domain.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">This approach is=
 MUCH simpler to state, MUCH simpler to implement, much more consistent wit=
h current practices (allow sending optional fields), and =96 if approved by=
 both =96 removes the disparities between the two specs regarding encoding =
of contacts.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">I=92ve already p=
resented the same to the US InterOp team, and believe there is general supp=
ort for this approach in the InterOp spec.</span><span style=3D"color:#1f49=
7d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">If, after a disc=
ussion here, there is general agreement, I=92m willing to draft updated tex=
t for Section =935.5.=A0 DeviceOwner=94=85 and the whole of it will probabl=
y be shorter than this email!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Dan</span><span =
style=3D"color:#1f497d"> Harasty</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div></div><br>___=
____________________________________________<br>

paws mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>-vince
</div>

--047d7b2e4c02d9576f04ed28ffd5--

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To: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>, "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:46:46 -0500
Thread-Topic: [paws] proposal to update PAWS doc regarding vCard
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Do we know that name and organization are both required?
Is it not more reasonable to think one or the other is required?
Peter S.

From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com<mailto:vchen@google.com>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:24 AM
To: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com<mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.c=
om>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] proposal to update PAWS doc regarding vCard

Dan,

I think not restricting to a subset of vCard fields is a good idea. But I b=
elieve it's still reasonable to require a minimum set of fields.

The current text for Section 5.5 of draft 07 reads:


   All contact information MUST be expressed using the structure defined
   by the vCard Format Specification [RFC6350].  Only the contact fields
   of vCard are supported:

   fn Full name of an individual
   org  Name of the organization
   adr  Address fields
   tel  Telephone numbers
   email  Email addresses


I think that word, "Only", was a poor choice on my part. The intent was not=
 to restrict to only these fields
but to indicate that these are minimum required fields.

A regulatory domain may require additional fields, but those should be docu=
mented in the
IANA Considerations section under the appropriate Ruleset ID sections.

It might also make sense to add statements, such as,

  Names of organizations MUST use the "org" field. Names of individuals MUS=
T use the "fn" field.

-vince



On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <dharasty@appcomsci.com<m=
ailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com>> wrote:
PAWS WG,

The team I=92m on is active both with PAWS, and with the other US WS DBAs i=
n the =93InterOp forum=94 to define the exchange of records between US WS D=
BAs.

The PAWS spec and InterOp specs are just slightly out-of-sync on how vCard =
objects are handled.

=B7         They state different subsets are =93the only supported fields=
=94

o   Example: InterOp states =93N=94 is supported, PAWS states it is exclude=
d.

=B7         They state different datatype restrictions.

o   Example: InterOp allows only =93text=94 and =93integer=94, PAWS allows =
=93uri=94 types.

=B7         Neither states how a recipient is supposed to handle/reject a m=
essage that has =93extra=94 fields.

But most importantly, IMO, there is no particular implementation advantage =
to an =93approved subset=94; in fact, it tends to complicate things.  In ef=
fect, the implementation required to add ad-hoc validations (to determine t=
hat certain fields are NOT present) , either custom validations after the u=
se of a generic vCard library / parser, or implementation of a custom vCard=
 parser.

Furthermore, everywhere else (outside the vCard) PAWS expressly requires me=
ssage recipients to =93ignore all parameters it does not understand=94.   W=
hy not apply the same design concept to parsing of vCards?

As such I=92d like to propose to PAWSa different approach:

=B7         The sender must send valid vCard, and must include anything req=
uired by its regulatory domain.  (All optional fields allowed by the vCard =
spec are expressly allowed in the InterOp/PAWS messages.)

=B7         The recipient must parse/accept any valid vCard, and may ignore=
 fields that are not required by the regulatory domain.

This approach is MUCH simpler to state, MUCH simpler to implement, much mor=
e consistent with current practices (allow sending optional fields), and =
=96 if approved by both =96 removes the disparities between the two specs r=
egarding encoding of contacts.

I=92ve already presented the same to the US InterOp team, and believe there=
 is general support for this approach in the InterOp spec.

If, after a discussion here, there is general agreement, I=92m willing to d=
raft updated text for Section =935.5.  DeviceOwner=94=85 and the whole of i=
t will probably be shorter than this email!

Dan Harasty




_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws




--
-vince

--_000_CECC69234805peterspectrumbridgecom_
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<html><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div>Do we know that name and organi=
zation are both required?</div><div>Is it not more reasonable to think one =
or the other is required?</div><div>Peter S.</div><div><br></div><span id=
=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt=
; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: me=
dium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORD=
ER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Vincent Chen &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:vchen@google.com">vchen@google.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weigh=
t:bold">Date: </span> Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:24 AM<br><span style=3D"=
font-weight:bold">To: </span> &quot;Harasty, Daniel J&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com">dharasty@appcomsci.com</a>&gt;<br><span styl=
e=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">p=
aws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [paws] prop=
osal to update PAWS doc regarding vCard<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><=
div dir=3D"ltr">Dan,
<div><br></div><div>I think not restricting to a subset of vCard fields is =
a good idea. But I believe it's still reasonable to require a minimum set o=
f fields.</div><div><br></div><div>The current text for Section 5.5 of draf=
t 07 reads:</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);word-wr=
ap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap">   All contact information MUST be expr=
essed using the structure defined
   by the vCard Format Specification [RFC6350].  Only the contact fields
   of vCard are supported:

   fn Full name of an individual
   org  Name of the organization
   adr  Address fields
   tel  Telephone numbers
   email  Email addresses
</pre></div><div><br></div><div>I think that word, &quot;Only&quot;, was a =
poor choice on my part. The intent was not to restrict to only these fields=
</div><div>but to indicate that these are minimum required fields.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>A regulatory domain may require additional fields, but tho=
se should be documented in the</div><div>IANA Considerations section under =
the appropriate Ruleset ID sections.</div><div><br></div><div>It might also=
 make sense to add statements, such as,</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; Nam=
es of organizations MUST use the &quot;org&quot; field. Names of individual=
s MUST use the &quot;fn&quot; field.</div><div><br></div><div>-vince</div><=
div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com" target=3D"_blank">dharasty@ap=
pcomsci.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1f497d">PAWS WG,</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
#1f497d">The team I=92m on is </span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">active b=
oth with PAWS, and with the other US WS DBAs in the =93InterOp forum=94 to =
define the exchange of records between US WS DBAs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The PAWS spec=
 and InterOp specs are just slightly out-of-sync on how vCard objects are h=
andled.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73,=
 125); "><span>=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Tim=
es New Roman'; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">They state differ=
ent subsets are =93the only supported fields=94<u></u><u></u></span></p><p =
style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:#1f497d"><span>o<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-va=
riant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; fo=
nt-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Example: InterOp =
states =93N=94 is supported, PAWS states it is excluded.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p><u></u><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>=B7<span st=
yle=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-=
size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">They state differ=
ent datatype restrictions.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-left:=
1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1f4=
97d"><span>o<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-w=
eight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New=
 Roman'; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Example: InterOp =
allows only =93text=94 and =93integer=94, PAWS allows =93uri=94 types.<u></=
u><u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><sp=
an>=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:=
 normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman=
'; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Neither states ho=
w a recipient is supposed to handle/reject a message that has =93extra=94 f=
ields.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:#1f497d">But most importantly, IMO, there is no particular implem=
entation advantage to an =93approved subset=94; in fact, it tends to compli=
cate things</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">.&nbsp; In effect, the impl=
ementation
<i>required </i>to add ad-hoc validations (to determine that certain fields=
 are NOT present) , either custom validations after the use of a
</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">generic vCard library / parser, or imp=
lementation of a custom vCard parser.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Furthermore, everywhere el=
se (outside the vCard) PAWS expressly
<i>requires</i> message recipients to =93ignore all parameters it does not =
understand=94.&nbsp;&nbsp; Why not apply the same design concept to parsing=
 of vCards?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:#1f497d">As such I=92d like to propose to PAWS</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1f497d"></span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">a different appr=
oach:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); "><span>=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fo=
nt-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times=
 New Roman'; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The sender must s=
end valid vCard, and must include anything required by its regulatory domai=
n.&nbsp; (All optional fields allowed by the vCard spec are expressly allow=
ed in the InterOp/PAWS messages.)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>=B7<span style=3D"font-style: norm=
al; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height:=
 normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The recipient mus=
t parse/accept any valid vCard, and may ignore fields that are not required=
 by the regulatory domain.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">This approach is MUCH simpler to stat=
e, MUCH simpler to implement, much more consistent with current practices (=
allow sending optional fields), and =96 if approved by both =96 removes the=
 disparities between the
 two specs regarding encoding of contacts.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">I=92ve already presen=
ted the same to the US InterOp team, and believe there is general support f=
or this approach in the InterOp spec.</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d=
"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"colo=
r:#1f497d">If, after a discussion here, there is general agreement, I=92m w=
illing to draft updated text for Section =935.5.&nbsp; DeviceOwner=94=85 an=
d the whole of it will probably be shorter than this email!<u></u><u></u></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Dan<=
/span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"> Harasty</span><span style=3D"color:#1f=
497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u=
></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p></div></div><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
paws mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>=
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br>=
<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>
-- <br>
-vince </div></div></div></span></body></html>

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Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Dan, Vince,

When you say that you don't want to have aliases and just want to decide on=
 short names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed t=
o short names and the  long names would not be supported?

Don

From: Vincent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:57 AM
To: Harasty, Daniel J
Cc: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Don Joslyn; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

All,

Shortened Names:
- I agree with Dan that we should not have aliases for parameter names. We =
should just decide on the short names
- I would only shorten the names that are highly repeated, such as those in=
 the Spectrum message, as Don suggested.

Compression:
- I agree we should just rely on standard HTTP compression and, as Dan sugg=
ests:
   - "Recommended" for WS Databases, and optional for WS Clients.


On a separate note, HTTPS is required. Are the radio vendors concerned abou=
t supporting that?

-vince

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <dharasty@appcomsci.com<m=
ailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com>> wrote:
All,

While I don't necessarily agree with all of Don's reasons, I'm not opposed =
to us adopting some means to shorten the messages.

Here's my proposal:

*         If we want to consider "more concise" / "less wordy" tag names, f=
ine by me.  We can shorten things like "powerDbmPerBw" to "power" or simply=
 "db".

o   Sure, that makes the protocol a wee-bit less "human readable".  However=
, if it makes it more "machine friendly" ala Don's view, that is probably a=
cceptable.  After all: the human should be reading the spec...

o   Note that shortening the longer tags that appear repeatedly (such as in=
 the "spectra" list) will give us the most "bang for the buck" in this effo=
rt.

*         Let's not mess around with *optional* "short form" tags.

o   Either a tag is short or long; let's not add complexity by creating som=
ething like aliases.

*         If we want to consider some actual compression, let's not invent =
something new here.  I haven't heard of any standardize way to compress JSO=
N... but since HTTP is the presumptive transport, why not just rely on "sta=
ndard" HTTP compression?

o   See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_compression

o   I would make support the spec stating this is "recommended" for WS Data=
bases, and optional for WS Clients.

Will actual compression help?  Turns out we've experimented a bit with this=
 even before Don's email, so here's one data point: we found many of the AV=
AIL_SPECTRUM_RESP messages to be in the range of 17k characters.  A simple =
call to a zlib compression algorithm on that string typically shortened it =
to about 1k characters.  (This was specifically using the HTTP compression =
techniques, but I expect the compression rate to be similar.)

Here's my concern:

*         If memory management is an issue in the radios, then don't we act=
ually make things WORSE by compression?  After all, if a 17k message is com=
pressed down to 1k... then the TRANSPORT of the message is sped up... but t=
he message now has to exist in the client's memory - at least briefly - in =
BOTH the compressed and decompressed form.

Just a quick viewpoint to consider:  In my opinion, at the heart of the mat=
ter, the desire of some participants is to make a VERY GENERAL message stru=
cture to AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP that will suit multiple use cases in multiple =
countries.  This is at odds with brevity, and therefore may be at odds with=
 certain radio-implementation constraints.

*         For example, a given device which is only going to operate in the=
 US gains nothing from this verbosity of our current generic structure.  To=
 wit, for US purposes, the whole SpectrumSchedule could be condensed to som=
ething a lot like this:
avail_chans: {5: 4000, 12: 4000, 16: 100, 17: 100, 18: 100, 31: 40, 41: 40}
representing that channels 5 and 12 are available at 4000mW, channels 16, 1=
7, and 18 are available at 100mW, and channels 31 and 41 are available at 4=
0mW.  This alone represents a savings of the majority of the 17k characters=
.  (Admittedly, the "time" aspect of the schedule would still need to be ad=
dressed.)

Dan Harasty


From: paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org>] On =
Behalf Of Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com<mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 5:26 PM
To: d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>; paws@i=
etf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

You are asking for a json compression mechanism, for understandable reasons=
. I was actually surprised this issue did not come up earlier.
We first need to have a discussion to see if there's consensus for the need=
 of a compression mechanism, and if yes, then see how do we get one in plac=
e.
I did not find any json compression related work in ietf, but a quick searc=
h found few available algorithms. Do we have on this list JSON experts who =
could give some advice?
Gabor


From: paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Don Joslyn
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:15 AM
To: paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
Subject: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

All,

While working closely with a number of white space radio vendors that wish =
to support the PAWS protocol, some have expressed concerns with the size of=
 paws messages, especially the size of an AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP message that =
supports Ofcom requirements and includes every channel. One issue raised is=
 that when these messages are very large (in this case >14k bytes), requiri=
ng several MTU's of packet data, their radio device does not have enough av=
ailable RAM (or resources) to support the required packet buffering, especi=
ally when their device is being used as a master with several attached slav=
es. A second issue raised is the amount of traffic generated by these contr=
ol messages, reducing the bandwidth available for user data traffic. The wo=
rst case is a master device supporting several slave devices where every de=
vice is required to periodically request a new channel list (and the period=
ic interval requirement seems to be getting smaller). Both issues are serio=
us concerns for these radio vendors, and unless we do something to resolve =
it, they may not be able to support the paws protocol. A further concern fo=
r radio developers is energy expended per transmitted bit.  This is a major=
 issue for battery powered devices.

I would like to propose that we support an optional shortened message forma=
t, by creating a two-character alias for each defined parameter's text name=
, without making any changes to message structure. We would be shortening t=
he parameter text names, not the parameter data values. When a device sends=
 a message to the database with shortened parameter names, the presence of =
shortened parameter names could serve as a trigger for the database to repl=
y to the device using shortened parameter names in the reply message.

This would be fairly easy to express in the current document by adding a pa=
ragraph to explain the support for shortened messages and adding a two-char=
acter alias in parenthesis next to each defined parameter name. I have atta=
ched an example to this email as a markup to page 40 of the version 7 draft=
.
In the example, I have defined two-character aliases for several parameter =
names, and included a sample "spectrum" section that uses shortened paramet=
er names.

The sample uses the following aliases:

"spectrum" =3D "sp"
"resolutionBwHz" =3D "bw"
"profiles" =3D "pf"
"freqHz" =3D "hz"
"powerDbmPerBw" =3D "pw"

We could define the shortened parameter names and make support of shortened=
 messages optional to allow database owners to decide if they want to suppo=
rt shortened messages or not.

If there is support for this proposal, I would volunteer to update the vers=
ion 7 draft to help move it forward.

Thank you,
Don

_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws



--
-vince

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dan, Vinc=
e,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When you say that you don&#8217;t want to =
have aliases and just want to decide on short names, does that mean that th=
e current long names would be changed to short names and the &nbsp;long nam=
es would not be supported?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Don<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-seri=
f"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","s=
ans-serif"'> Vincent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesda=
y, December 10, 2013 1:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> Harasty, Daniel J<br><b>Cc:</b> =
Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Don Joslyn; paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [pa=
ws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>A=
ll,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal>Shortened Names:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal>- I agree with Dan that we should not have aliases for parameter =
names. We should just decide on the short names<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>- I would only shorten the names that are highly repeate=
d, such as those in the Spectrum message, as Don suggested.<o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal>Compression:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- I agr=
ee we should just rely on standard HTTP compression and, as Dan suggests:<o=
:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;-&nbsp;<span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8220;Recommended&=
#8221; for WS Databases, and optional for WS Clients.</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>On a separate note,&=
nbsp;HTTPS is required. Are the radio vendors concerned about supporting th=
at?&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-vince</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Harasty, Daniel J=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com" target=3D"_blank">dharasty@a=
ppcomsci.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>All,<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>While I don&#8217;t necessarily agree=
 with all of Don&#8217;s reasons, I&#8217;m not opposed to us adopting some=
 means to shorten the messages.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=
auto'>Here&#8217;s my proposal:<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-family=
:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>If we want to consider &#8220;more con=
cise&#8221; / &#8220;less wordy&#8221; tag names, fine by me.&nbsp; We can =
shorten things like &#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#8221; to &#8220;power&#8221; or s=
imply &#8220;db&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>o</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Sure, that makes the protocol a wee-bit less &#8220;hu=
man readable&#8221;.&nbsp; However, if it makes it more &#8220;machine frie=
ndly&#8221; ala Don&#8217;s view, that is probably acceptable.&nbsp; After =
all: the human should be reading the spec&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'=
margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>o</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Note that shortening the long=
er tags that appear repeatedly (such as in the &#8220;spectra&#8221; list) =
will give us the most &#8220;bang for the buck&#8221; in this effort.<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span style=
=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </spa=
n>Let&#8217;s not mess around with *<b>optional</b>* &#8220;short form&#822=
1; tags.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Courier New"'>o</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&=
nbsp; </span>Either a tag is short or long; let&#8217;s not add complexity =
by creating something like aliases.<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>If we want to consider some actual=
 compression, let&#8217;s not invent something new here.&nbsp; I haven&#821=
7;t heard of any standardize way to compress JSON&#8230; but since HTTP is =
the presumptive transport, why not just rely on &#8220;standard&#8221; HTTP=
 compression?<o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-family:"Courier New"'>o</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span>See: <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_compression" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>http://en.wikipedia.org/w=
iki/HTTP_compression</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:1.0in=
'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>o</span><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>I would make support the spec stating this is =
&#8220;recommended&#8221; for WS Databases, and optional for WS Clients.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Will actual compression help=
?&nbsp; Turns out we&#8217;ve experimented a bit with this even before Don&=
#8217;s email, so here&#8217;s one data point: we found many of the AVAIL_S=
PECTRUM_RESP messages to be in the range of 17k characters.&nbsp; A simple =
call to a zlib compression algorithm on that string typically shortened it =
to about 1k characters.&nbsp; (This was specifically using the HTTP compres=
sion techniques, but I expect the compression rate to be similar.)<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Here&#8217;s my concern:<o:p></o:p=
></p><p><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>&middot;</span><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>If m=
emory management is an issue in the radios, then don&#8217;t we actually ma=
ke things WORSE by compression?&nbsp; After all, if a 17k message is compre=
ssed down to 1k&#8230; then the TRANSPORT of the message is sped up&#8230; =
but the message now has to exist in the client&#8217;s memory &#8211; at le=
ast briefly &#8211; in BOTH the compressed and decompressed form.<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-botto=
m-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Just a quick viewpoint to consider:=
&nbsp; In my opinion, at the heart of the matter, the desire of some partic=
ipants is to make a VERY GENERAL message structure to AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP t=
hat will suit multiple use cases in multiple countries.&nbsp; This is at od=
ds with brevity, and therefore may be at odds with certain radio-implementa=
tion constraints.<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'>&midd=
ot;</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>For example, a given device which is only going to o=
perate in the US gains nothing from this verbosity of our current generic s=
tructure.&nbsp; To wit, for US purposes, the whole SpectrumSchedule could b=
e condensed to something a lot like this:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1=
.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>avail_chans: {5: 4000, 12: =
4000, 16: 100, 17: 100, 18: 100, 31: 40, 41: 40}</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;margin-left:.5in'>representing that channels 5 and 12 are available at 400=
0mW, channels 16, 17, and 18 are available at 100mW, and channels 31 and 41=
 are available at 40mW.&nbsp; This alone represents a savings of the majori=
ty of the 17k characters.&nbsp; (Admittedly, the &#8220;time&#8221; aspect =
of the schedule would still need to be addressed.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;m=
so-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dan Harasty<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'=
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'color:#1F4=
97D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:=
solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> paws [mailto:<a=
 href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws-bounces@ietf.=
org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 06,=
 2013 5:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com" =
target=3D"_blank">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] =
Proposal to optionally support shortened message format</span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:au=
to;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'c=
olor:#1F497D'>You are asking for a json compression mechanism, for understa=
ndable reasons. I was actually surprised this issue did not come up earlier=
.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We first need t=
o have a discussion to see if there&#8217;s consensus for the need of a com=
pression mechanism, and if yes, then see how do we get one in place.</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-ma=
rgin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I did not find any json=
 compression related work in ietf, but a quick search found few available a=
lgorithms. Do we have on this list JSON experts who could give some advice?=
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto=
;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Gabor</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto'><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div=
 style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in =
0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-botto=
m-alt:auto'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-s=
erif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"=
,"sans-serif"'> paws [<a href=3D"mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>ext Don Joslyn<=
br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 06, 2013 11:15 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D=
"mailto:paws@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</=
b> [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:au=
to;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>All,<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>While working closely with a number o=
f white space radio vendors that wish to support the PAWS protocol, some ha=
ve expressed concerns with the size of paws messages, especially the size o=
f an AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP message that supports Ofcom requirements and inclu=
des every channel. One issue raised is that when these messages are very la=
rge (in this case &gt;14k bytes), requiring several MTU&#8217;s of packet d=
ata, their radio device does not have enough available RAM (or resources) t=
o support the required packet buffering, especially when their device is be=
ing used as a master with several attached slaves. A second issue raised is=
 the amount of traffic generated by these control messages, reducing the ba=
ndwidth available for user data traffic. The worst case is a master device =
supporting several slave devices where every device is required to periodic=
ally request a new channel list (and the periodic interval requirement seem=
s to be getting smaller). Both issues are serious concerns for these radio =
vendors, and unless we do something to resolve it, they may not be able to =
support the paws protocol. A further concern for radio developers is energy=
 expended per transmitted bit.&nbsp; This is a major issue for battery powe=
red devices.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt=
:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I would like =
to propose that we support an optional shortened message format, by creatin=
g a two-character alias for each defined parameter&#8217;s text name, witho=
ut making any changes to message structure. We would be shortening the para=
meter text names, not the parameter data values. When a device sends a mess=
age to the database with shortened parameter names, the presence of shorten=
ed parameter names could serve as a trigger for the database to reply to th=
e device using shortened parameter names in the reply message.<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>This would be fairly easy to express i=
n the current document by adding a paragraph to explain the support for sho=
rtened messages and adding a two-character alias in parenthesis next to eac=
h defined parameter name. I have attached an example to this email as a mar=
kup to page 40 of the version 7 draft.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>In the example,=
 I have defined two-character aliases for several parameter names, and incl=
uded a sample &#8220;spectrum&#8221; section that uses shortened parameter =
names.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;=
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The sample uses the=
 following aliases:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&#8220=
;spectrum&#8221; =3D &#8220;sp&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&#8220;resolutio=
nBwHz&#8221; =3D &#8220;bw&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&#8220;profiles&#82=
21; =3D &#8220;pf&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&#8220;freqHz&#8221; =3D &#82=
20;hz&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt=
:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#8221; =3D &#8220;pw=
&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto=
;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>We could define th=
e shortened parameter names and make support of shortened messages optional=
 to allow database owners to decide if they want to support shortened messa=
ges or not.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If there is su=
pport for this proposal, I would volunteer to update the version 7 draft to=
 help move it forward.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>T=
hank you,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:au=
to;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Don<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_____________________=
__________________________<br>paws mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:paws@i=
etf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><=
o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
-- <br>-vince <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_8375F6DAEFB09F48815203F1FE23B79741BEC371F6shelby_--

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From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>
To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
Thread-Index: Ac7yt3HQrjMfIDRQScCGkhrZN+EQgQAF/ZeAAIf5V4AAIWzCgAAMzV2AAAEZCYA=
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On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.=
joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:

Dan, Vince,

When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and just want to decide =
on short names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed=
 to short names and the  long names would not be supported?

That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a good =
idea.

Ray



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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space;">
<br>
<div>
<div>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@sp=
ectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Co=
urierNewPSMT; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fo=
nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: au=
to; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Dan, Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and jus=
t want to decide on short names, does that mean that the current long names=
 would be changed to short names and
 the &nbsp;long names would not be supported?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a =
good idea.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ray</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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--_000_CECC858F300DDbrianrosenneustarbiz_
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<personal opinion>
I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything subst=
antial to the problem.

We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years.  Our ex=
perience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementations other t=
han complicating debugging.

Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps substan=
tially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, and, =
in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implementations.

You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, w=
hich any decent compression system should be able to do, would actually mak=
e any difference to a device implemented this year?  If those Ks were Ms, i=
t might be worth thinking about, but Ks?  Please.

Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly in=
sufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.

Brian


From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.u=
k>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM
To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format


On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.=
joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:

Dan, Vince,

When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and just want to decide =
on short names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed=
 to short names and the  long names would not be supported?

That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a good =
idea.

Ray



--_000_CECC858F300DDbrianrosenneustarbiz_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>&lt;personal opinion&gt;</div>
<div>I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything =
substantial to the problem. &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years. &n=
bsp;Our experience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementatio=
ns other than complicating debugging.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps su=
bstantially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, =
and, in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implementations.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10=
KB, which any decent compression system should be able to do, would actuall=
y make any difference to a device implemented this year? &nbsp;If those Ks =
were Ms, it might be worth thinking about,
 but Ks? &nbsp;Please.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clear=
ly insufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at=
 8:34 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;">
<br>
<div>
<div>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@sp=
ectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Co=
urierNewPSMT; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fo=
nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: au=
to; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Dan, Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and jus=
t want to decide on short names, does that mean that the current long names=
 would be changed to short names and
 the &nbsp;long names would not be supported?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a =
good idea.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ray</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CECC858F300DDbrianrosenneustarbiz_--

From peter@spectrumbridge.com  Tue Dec 10 06:44:53 2013
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From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:44:36 -0500
Thread-Topic: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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--_000_CECC92B14834peterspectrumbridgecom_
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Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge for many battery powered transcei=
vers. So yes 10% is meaningful

From: <Rosen>, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.bi=
z>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:53 AM
To: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>=
>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.c=
om>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

<personal opinion>
I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything subst=
antial to the problem.

We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years.  Our ex=
perience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementations other t=
han complicating debugging.

Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps substan=
tially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, and, =
in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implementations.

You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, w=
hich any decent compression system should be able to do, would actually mak=
e any difference to a device implemented this year?  If those Ks were Ms, i=
t might be worth thinking about, but Ks?  Please.

Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly in=
sufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.

Brian


From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.u=
k>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM
To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format


On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.=
joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:

Dan, Vince,

When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and just want to decide =
on short names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed=
 to short names and the  long names would not be supported?

That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a good =
idea.

Ray



--_000_CECC92B14834peterspectrumbridgecom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div>Energy per transmitted bit, the=
 challenge for many battery powered transceivers. So yes 10% is meaningful<=
/div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: =
medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0=
in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium=
 none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> &lt=
;Rosen&gt;, Brian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz">Brian.Rose=
n@neustar.biz</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tue=
sday, December 10, 2013 8:53 AM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </s=
pan> Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis=
@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrum=
bridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht:bold">Cc: </span> &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</=
a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><spa=
n style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [paws] Proposal to option=
ally support shortened message format<br></div><div><br></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;"><div>&lt;personal opinion&gt;</div><div>I don=92t have an =
objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything substantial to the prob=
lem. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>We have had discussions like this on m=
any protocols over the years. &nbsp;Our experience is this kind of thing ha=
s little effect on implementations other than complicating debugging.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message=
 often helps substantially reduce message size, also substantially complica=
tes debugging, and, in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implemen=
tations.</div><div><br></div><div>You really think that reducing message si=
zes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, which any decent compression system should=
 be able to do, would actually make any difference to a device implemented =
this year? &nbsp;If those Ks were Ms, it might be worth thinking about,
 but Ks? &nbsp;Please.</div><div><br></div><div>Shorter names probably only=
 changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly insufficient to do anything o=
ther than confuse humans.</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: med=
ium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in;=
 PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium no=
ne; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ray Bel=
lis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org=
.uk</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, Decem=
ber 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Don =
Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrum=
bridge.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">S=
ubject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message =
format<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -w=
ebkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><d=
iv>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spec=
trumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=
=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-US=
" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: CourierNewPSMT; font=
-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: st=
art; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: a=
uto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"Word=
Section1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">Dan, Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size=
: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
1pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">When you =
say that you don=92t want to have aliases and just want to decide on short =
names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed to short=
 names and
 the &nbsp;long names would not be supported?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><br></div><div>That's my understanding of what has been =
proposed, and I think it's a good idea.</div><div><br></div><div>Ray</div><=
div><br></div><br></div></div></span></div></div></span></body></html>

--_000_CECC92B14834peterspectrumbridgecom_--

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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com>, Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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--_000_CECC94D430119brianrosenneustarbiz_
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We=92ve looked at these kinds of claims.  If it meant 10% of battery, it wo=
uld be significant, but it almost never does.  In one example we looked at,=
 30% change of message size changed battery by less than 1%.

Yes, the radio is a significant drain on the battery, but so is CPU and oth=
er interfaces.  You have to look at the entire message set transmission ove=
r the typical charge/discharge cycle.  How often is this message sent, and =
what other radio traffic is there when battery charge is stressed?

So, how often is it sent?  In the US, it=92s once every 24 hours unless the=
re are schedule changes.  The UK wants more.  What is their number?  Once a=
n hour?  Once every 15 minutes?  A master has to send an equivalent message=
 to every slave, but if I halve the size of a message sent every 15 minutes=
 while the device is servicing those clients, what is the percentage of rad=
io traffic due to the protocol?

Could it even approximate 1%?  More likely .01%.  Then halve it size, just =
to be aggressive.  What happens to battery?

Brian

From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:peter@spectrumbridge=
.com>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 9:44 AM
To: Brian Rosen <brian.rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz>>, =
Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>, D=
on Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge for many battery powered transcei=
vers. So yes 10% is meaningful

From: <Rosen>, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.bi=
z>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:53 AM
To: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>=
>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.c=
om>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

<personal opinion>
I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything subst=
antial to the problem.

We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years.  Our ex=
perience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementations other t=
han complicating debugging.

Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps substan=
tially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, and, =
in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implementations.

You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, w=
hich any decent compression system should be able to do, would actually mak=
e any difference to a device implemented this year?  If those Ks were Ms, i=
t might be worth thinking about, but Ks?  Please.

Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly in=
sufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.

Brian


From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.u=
k>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM
To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format


On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.=
joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:

Dan, Vince,

When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and just want to decide =
on short names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed=
 to short names and the  long names would not be supported?

That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a good =
idea.

Ray



--_000_CECC94D430119brianrosenneustarbiz_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>We=92ve looked at these kinds of claims. &nbsp;If it meant 10% of batt=
ery, it would be significant, but it almost never does. &nbsp;In one exampl=
e we looked at, 30% change of message size changed battery by less than 1%.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, the radio is a significant drain on the battery, but so is CPU an=
d other interfaces. &nbsp;You have to look at the entire message set transm=
ission over the typical charge/discharge cycle. &nbsp;How often is this mes=
sage sent, and what other radio traffic is
 there when battery charge is stressed? &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, how often is it sent? &nbsp;In the US, it=92s once every 24 hours =
unless there are schedule changes. &nbsp;The UK wants more. &nbsp;What is t=
heir number? &nbsp;Once an hour? &nbsp;Once every 15 minutes? &nbsp;A maste=
r has to send an equivalent message to every slave, but if I halve
 the size of a message sent every 15 minutes while the device is servicing =
those clients, what is the percentage of radio traffic due to the protocol?=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Could it even approximate 1%? &nbsp;More likely .01%. &nbsp;Then halve=
 it size, just to be aggressive. &nbsp;What happens to battery?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Peter Stanforth &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at=
 9:44 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Brian Rosen &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:brian.rosen@neustar.biz">brian.rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;, Ray Bellis &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>=
&gt;, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.josly=
n@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge for many battery powered tra=
nsceivers. So yes 10% is meaningful</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;Rosen&gt;, Brian &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz">Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:=
53 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;, Don Joslyn =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>&lt;personal opinion&gt;</div>
<div>I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything =
substantial to the problem. &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years. &n=
bsp;Our experience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementatio=
ns other than complicating debugging.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps su=
bstantially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, =
and, in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implementations.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10=
KB, which any decent compression system should be able to do, would actuall=
y make any difference to a device implemented this year? &nbsp;If those Ks =
were Ms, it might be worth thinking about,
 but Ks? &nbsp;Please.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clear=
ly insufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at=
 8:34 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;">
<br>
<div>
<div>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@sp=
ectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Co=
urierNewPSMT; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fo=
nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: au=
to; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Dan, Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and jus=
t want to decide on short names, does that mean that the current long names=
 would be changed to short names and
 the &nbsp;long names would not be supported?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a =
good idea.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ray</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CECC94D430119brianrosenneustarbiz_--

From peter@spectrumbridge.com  Tue Dec 10 07:15:18 2013
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From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:14:58 -0500
Thread-Topic: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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--_000_CECC98D3484Bpeterspectrumbridgecom_
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UK example. Sensor on a trash can. Wants to talk (real data) only when the =
can is full (once a week?) battery goal is 5 years.  Ofcom requires channel=
 validation every 15 minutes. So it is sending 672 overhead messages for ev=
ery useful one. The validation times are not going to get longer, only shor=
ter, when we move into other bands. Not everything wireless is a smart phon=
e. There may be 6B of those eventually but the projections for M2M are near=
ly 10 times that.

From: <Rosen>, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.bi=
z>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:00 AM
To: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.c=
om>>, Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.u=
k>>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge=
.com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

We=92ve looked at these kinds of claims.  If it meant 10% of battery, it wo=
uld be significant, but it almost never does.  In one example we looked at,=
 30% change of message size changed battery by less than 1%.

Yes, the radio is a significant drain on the battery, but so is CPU and oth=
er interfaces.  You have to look at the entire message set transmission ove=
r the typical charge/discharge cycle.  How often is this message sent, and =
what other radio traffic is there when battery charge is stressed?

So, how often is it sent?  In the US, it=92s once every 24 hours unless the=
re are schedule changes.  The UK wants more.  What is their number?  Once a=
n hour?  Once every 15 minutes?  A master has to send an equivalent message=
 to every slave, but if I halve the size of a message sent every 15 minutes=
 while the device is servicing those clients, what is the percentage of rad=
io traffic due to the protocol?

Could it even approximate 1%?  More likely .01%.  Then halve it size, just =
to be aggressive.  What happens to battery?

Brian

From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:peter@spectrumbridge=
.com>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 9:44 AM
To: Brian Rosen <brian.rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz>>, =
Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>, D=
on Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge for many battery powered transcei=
vers. So yes 10% is meaningful

From: <Rosen>, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.bi=
z>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:53 AM
To: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>=
>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.c=
om>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

<personal opinion>
I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything subst=
antial to the problem.

We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years.  Our ex=
perience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementations other t=
han complicating debugging.

Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps substan=
tially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, and, =
in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implementations.

You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, w=
hich any decent compression system should be able to do, would actually mak=
e any difference to a device implemented this year?  If those Ks were Ms, i=
t might be worth thinking about, but Ks?  Please.

Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly in=
sufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.

Brian


From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.u=
k>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM
To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format


On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.=
joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:

Dan, Vince,

When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and just want to decide =
on short names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed=
 to short names and the  long names would not be supported?

That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a good =
idea.

Ray



--_000_CECC98D3484Bpeterspectrumbridgecom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div>UK example. Sensor on a trash c=
an. Wants to talk (real data) only when the can is full (once a week?) batt=
ery goal is 5 years. &nbsp;Ofcom requires channel validation every 15 minut=
es. So it is sending 672 overhead messages for every useful one. The valida=
tion times are not going to get longer, only shorter, when we move into oth=
er bands. Not everything wireless is a smart phone. There may be 6B of thos=
e eventually but the projections for M2M are nearly 10 times that.&nbsp;</d=
iv><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: me=
dium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in=
; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium n=
one; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> &lt;R=
osen&gt;, Brian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz">Brian.Rosen@=
neustar.biz</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tuesd=
ay, December 10, 2013 10:00 AM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </sp=
an> Peter Stanforth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@s=
pectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;, Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nomi=
net.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br><s=
pan style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@iet=
f.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [pa=
ws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format<br></div><div><=
br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space=
; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14=
px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div>We=92ve looked at these kinds o=
f claims. &nbsp;If it meant 10% of battery, it would be significant, but it=
 almost never does. &nbsp;In one example we looked at, 30% change of messag=
e size changed battery by less than 1%.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, the r=
adio is a significant drain on the battery, but so is CPU and other interfa=
ces. &nbsp;You have to look at the entire message set transmission over the=
 typical charge/discharge cycle. &nbsp;How often is this message sent, and =
what other radio traffic is
 there when battery charge is stressed? &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>So,=
 how often is it sent? &nbsp;In the US, it=92s once every 24 hours unless t=
here are schedule changes. &nbsp;The UK wants more. &nbsp;What is their num=
ber? &nbsp;Once an hour? &nbsp;Once every 15 minutes? &nbsp;A master has to=
 send an equivalent message to every slave, but if I halve
 the size of a message sent every 15 minutes while the device is servicing =
those clients, what is the percentage of radio traffic due to the protocol?=
</div><div><br></div><div>Could it even approximate 1%? &nbsp;More likely .=
01%. &nbsp;Then halve it size, just to be aggressive. &nbsp;What happens to=
 battery?</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OL=
K_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text=
-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium n=
one; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP=
: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span sty=
le=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Peter Stanforth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=
=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 9:44 AM<br=
><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Brian Rosen &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz">brian.rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;, Ray Bellis &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a=
>&gt;, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.josl=
yn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </spa=
n>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-wei=
ght:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shorten=
ed message format<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: bre=
ak-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; c=
olor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><d=
iv>Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge for many battery powered trans=
ceivers. So yes 10% is meaningful</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_B=
ODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:=
left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PA=
DDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4=
df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;Rosen&gt;, Brian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Br=
ian.Rosen@neustar.biz">Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"fo=
nt-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:53 AM<br><span st=
yle=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Be=
llis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;, Don Joslyn &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&=
gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:=
paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org"=
>paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>=
Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format<br></div=
><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode=
: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-s=
ize: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div>&lt;personal opinion&gt;=
</div><div>I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do any=
thing substantial to the problem. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>We have h=
ad discussions like this on many protocols over the years. &nbsp;Our experi=
ence is this kind of thing has little effect on implementations other than =
complicating debugging.</div><div><br></div><div>Using a formal compression=
 scheme on the entire message often helps substantially reduce message size=
, also substantially complicates debugging, and, in general, we don=92t thi=
nk it actually helps implementations.</div><div><br></div><div>You really t=
hink that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, which any dec=
ent compression system should be able to do, would actually make any differ=
ence to a device implemented this year? &nbsp;If those Ks were Ms, it might=
 be worth thinking about,
 but Ks? &nbsp;Please.</div><div><br></div><div>Shorter names probably only=
 changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly insufficient to do anything o=
ther than confuse humans.</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: med=
ium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in;=
 PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium no=
ne; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ray Bel=
lis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org=
.uk</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, Decem=
ber 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Don =
Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrum=
bridge.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">S=
ubject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message =
format<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -w=
ebkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><d=
iv>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spec=
trumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=
=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-US=
" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: CourierNewPSMT; font=
-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: st=
art; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: a=
uto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"Word=
Section1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">Dan, Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size=
: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
1pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">When you =
say that you don=92t want to have aliases and just want to decide on short =
names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed to short=
 names and
 the &nbsp;long names would not be supported?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><br></div><div>That's my understanding of what has been =
proposed, and I think it's a good idea.</div><div><br></div><div>Ray</div><=
div><br></div><br></div></div></span></div></div></span></div></div></span>=
</div></div></span></body></html>

--_000_CECC98D3484Bpeterspectrumbridgecom_--

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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com>, Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>
Thread-Topic: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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--_000_CECC9C9B3014Dbrianrosenneustarbiz_
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It doesn=92t need a channel assignment until it needs to send a message.  W=
hen it wants to send a message, it goes online, registers, requests and sen=
ds.  Then it goes off line.

Brian

From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:peter@spectrumbridge=
.com>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 10:14 AM
To: Brian Rosen <brian.rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz>>, =
Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>, D=
on Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

UK example. Sensor on a trash can. Wants to talk (real data) only when the =
can is full (once a week?) battery goal is 5 years.  Ofcom requires channel=
 validation every 15 minutes. So it is sending 672 overhead messages for ev=
ery useful one. The validation times are not going to get longer, only shor=
ter, when we move into other bands. Not everything wireless is a smart phon=
e. There may be 6B of those eventually but the projections for M2M are near=
ly 10 times that.

From: <Rosen>, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.bi=
z>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:00 AM
To: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.c=
om>>, Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.u=
k>>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge=
.com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

We=92ve looked at these kinds of claims.  If it meant 10% of battery, it wo=
uld be significant, but it almost never does.  In one example we looked at,=
 30% change of message size changed battery by less than 1%.

Yes, the radio is a significant drain on the battery, but so is CPU and oth=
er interfaces.  You have to look at the entire message set transmission ove=
r the typical charge/discharge cycle.  How often is this message sent, and =
what other radio traffic is there when battery charge is stressed?

So, how often is it sent?  In the US, it=92s once every 24 hours unless the=
re are schedule changes.  The UK wants more.  What is their number?  Once a=
n hour?  Once every 15 minutes?  A master has to send an equivalent message=
 to every slave, but if I halve the size of a message sent every 15 minutes=
 while the device is servicing those clients, what is the percentage of rad=
io traffic due to the protocol?

Could it even approximate 1%?  More likely .01%.  Then halve it size, just =
to be aggressive.  What happens to battery?

Brian

From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:peter@spectrumbridge=
.com>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 9:44 AM
To: Brian Rosen <brian.rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz>>, =
Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>, D=
on Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge for many battery powered transcei=
vers. So yes 10% is meaningful

From: <Rosen>, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz<mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.bi=
z>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:53 AM
To: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>=
>, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.c=
om>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

<personal opinion>
I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything subst=
antial to the problem.

We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years.  Our ex=
perience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementations other t=
han complicating debugging.

Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps substan=
tially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, and, =
in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implementations.

You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, w=
hich any decent compression system should be able to do, would actually mak=
e any difference to a device implemented this year?  If those Ks were Ms, i=
t might be worth thinking about, but Ks?  Please.

Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly in=
sufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.

Brian


From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.u=
k>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM
To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format


On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.=
joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:

Dan, Vince,

When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and just want to decide =
on short names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed=
 to short names and the  long names would not be supported?

That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a good =
idea.

Ray



--_000_CECC9C9B3014Dbrianrosenneustarbiz_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>It doesn=92t need a channel assignment until it needs to send a messag=
e. &nbsp;When it wants to send a message, it goes online, registers, reques=
ts and sends. &nbsp;Then it goes off line.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Peter Stanforth &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at=
 10:14 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Brian Rosen &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:brian.rosen@neustar.biz">brian.rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;, Ray Bellis &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>=
&gt;, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.josly=
n@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>UK example. Sensor on a trash can. Wants to talk (real data) only when=
 the can is full (once a week?) battery goal is 5 years. &nbsp;Ofcom requir=
es channel validation every 15 minutes. So it is sending 672 overhead messa=
ges for every useful one. The validation
 times are not going to get longer, only shorter, when we move into other b=
ands. Not everything wireless is a smart phone. There may be 6B of those ev=
entually but the projections for M2M are nearly 10 times that.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;Rosen&gt;, Brian &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz">Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10=
:00 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Peter Stanforth &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;, Ray Bell=
is &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.=
uk</a>&gt;, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d=
.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>We=92ve looked at these kinds of claims. &nbsp;If it meant 10% of batt=
ery, it would be significant, but it almost never does. &nbsp;In one exampl=
e we looked at, 30% change of message size changed battery by less than 1%.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, the radio is a significant drain on the battery, but so is CPU an=
d other interfaces. &nbsp;You have to look at the entire message set transm=
ission over the typical charge/discharge cycle. &nbsp;How often is this mes=
sage sent, and what other radio traffic is
 there when battery charge is stressed? &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, how often is it sent? &nbsp;In the US, it=92s once every 24 hours =
unless there are schedule changes. &nbsp;The UK wants more. &nbsp;What is t=
heir number? &nbsp;Once an hour? &nbsp;Once every 15 minutes? &nbsp;A maste=
r has to send an equivalent message to every slave, but if I halve
 the size of a message sent every 15 minutes while the device is servicing =
those clients, what is the percentage of radio traffic due to the protocol?=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Could it even approximate 1%? &nbsp;More likely .01%. &nbsp;Then halve=
 it size, just to be aggressive. &nbsp;What happens to battery?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Peter Stanforth &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at=
 9:44 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Brian Rosen &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:brian.rosen@neustar.biz">brian.rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;, Ray Bellis &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>=
&gt;, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.josly=
n@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div>Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge for many battery powered tra=
nsceivers. So yes 10% is meaningful</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;Rosen&gt;, Brian &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz">Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:=
53 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;, Don Joslyn =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>&lt;personal opinion&gt;</div>
<div>I don=92t have an objection to doing that, but it won=92t do anything =
substantial to the problem. &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years. &n=
bsp;Our experience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementatio=
ns other than complicating debugging.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps su=
bstantially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, =
and, in general, we don=92t think it actually helps implementations.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10=
KB, which any decent compression system should be able to do, would actuall=
y make any difference to a device implemented this year? &nbsp;If those Ks =
were Ms, it might be worth thinking about,
 but Ks? &nbsp;Please.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clear=
ly insufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at=
 8:34 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ie=
tf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to opt=
ionally support shortened message format<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;">
<br>
<div>
<div>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@sp=
ectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Co=
urierNewPSMT; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fo=
nt-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: au=
to; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">Dan, Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Time=
s New Roman', serif;">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);">When you say that you don=92t want to have aliases and jus=
t want to decide on short names, does that mean that the current long names=
 would be changed to short names and
 the &nbsp;long names would not be supported?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a =
good idea.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ray</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

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Dan,

I must disagree on the "integer issue".

In JavaScript/ECMAScript/JSON, there is only "Number". There is no integer
vs float types. No matter how you choose to write it, it's the same
"number".
I don't think we should try to define a restricted version of JSON, much as
your argument for vCard :)

As for the "whole channel issue", I suppose we might a statement to the
"FCC 2010 Ruleset" section,
but I'm not quite sure what the concern is that this resolves? Is the
concern that the Database might be
returning center frequencies for channels?

-vince


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <dharasty@appcomsci.com>w=
rote:

> PAWS WG,
>
>
>
> I=92ve been in some discussions where PAWS implementers have stated the
> following preferences:
>
>
>
> 1.       Certain values in PAWS =96 such as =93startHz=94, =93stopHz=94,
> =93resolutionBwHz=94, =93powerDbmPerBw=94 =96 should be expressed in mess=
ages as
> integers rather than floats.
>
> =B7         Example, encode the =93startHz=94 of Channel 43 with the inte=
ger
> notation =93644000000=94, rather than floating point notation such as =93=
644e6=94
> or =936.44e8=94.
>
> =B7         Reason: internal representation of floats are rarely exact, a=
nd
> equality operations are often complicated by this.
>
>
>
> 2.       Values such as =93startHz=94 and =93stopHz=94 should be constrai=
ned to
> actual television channel band edges =96 at least in the US.
>
> =B7         Reason: as a practical matter, as there is no concept =96 at =
this
> time =96 that the US databases will ever state the availability of =93par=
t=94 of
> a US TV channel.
>
>
>
> Both afford implementation simplification for the WS devices, and thus I
> think they deserve some discussion.  Is there a way to address this in th=
e
> spec without removing future flexibility, or affecting use cases outside
> the US?
>
>
>
> Here is one possibility:
>
>
>
> A.      Address the =93integer issue=94 with language to the effect of: =
=93when
> encoding numeric values that are integers, the sender MUST use the JSON
> encoding that avoids its representation as a float =96 that is, it must n=
ot
> use either the decimal point nor the exponent part=94.
>
> (This is intentionally less draconian than stating that certain values
> like =93startHz=94 and =93powerDbmPerBw=94 MUST be integers; rather =93wh=
en they are
> integers, represent them as such=94.)
>
>
>
> B.      Address the =93whole channel issue=94 by adding verbiage to the
> meaning of the =93FCC 2010 Ruleset=94 that states expressly that =93start=
Hz=94 and
> =93stopHz=94 values must be constrained to actual U.S. television channel=
 band
> edges.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> Dan Harasty
>
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>
>


--=20
-vince

--001a113497501c1c6d04ed301cd5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dan,<div><br></div><div>I must disagree on the &quot;integ=
er issue&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>In JavaScript/ECMAScript/JSON, the=
re is only &quot;Number&quot;. There is no integer vs float types. No matte=
r how you choose to write it, it&#39;s the same &quot;number&quot;.</div>
<div>I don&#39;t think we should try to define a restricted version of JSON=
, much as your argument for vCard :)</div><div><br></div><div>As for the &q=
uot;whole channel issue&quot;, I suppose we might a statement to the &quot;=
FCC 2010 Ruleset&quot; section,</div>
<div>but I&#39;m not quite sure what the concern is that this resolves? Is =
the concern that the Database might be</div><div>returning center frequenci=
es for channels?=A0</div><div><br></div><div>-vince</div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Harasty,=
 Daniel J <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">dharasty@appcomsci.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">PAWS WG,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I=92ve been in some discussions where PAWS im=
plementers have stated the following preferences:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &=
quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Certain values in PAWS =96 such as =93startHz=94=
, =93stopHz=94, =93resolutionBwHz=94, =93powerDbmPerBw=94 =96 should be exp=
ressed in messages as integers rather than floats.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:#1f497d">Example, encode the =93startHz=94 of Channel 43 with=
 the integer notation =93644000000=94, rather than floating point notation =
such as =93644e6=94 or =936.44e8=94.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:#1f497d">Reason: internal representation of floats are rarely=
 exact, and equality operations are often complicated by this.<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &=
quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Values such as =93startHz=94 and =93stopHz=94 sh=
ould be constrained to actual television channel band edges =96 at least in=
 the US.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;;color:#1f497d">Reason: as a practical matter, as there is no concep=
t =96 at this time =96 that the US databases will ever state the availabili=
ty of =93part=94 of a US TV channel.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Both afford implementa=
tion simplification for the WS devices, and thus I think they deserve some =
discussion.=A0 Is there a way to address this in the spec without removing =
future flexibility, or affecting use cases outside the US?<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Here is one possibilit=
y: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><span>A.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &=
quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;;color:#1f497d">Address the =93integer issue=94 with language to th=
e effect of: =93when encoding numeric values that are integers, the sender =
MUST use the JSON encoding that avoids its representation as a float =96 th=
at is, it must not use either the decimal point nor the exponent part=94.<b=
r>
<br>(This is intentionally less draconian than stating that certain values =
like =93startHz=94 and =93powerDbmPerBw=94 MUST be integers; rather =93when=
 they are integers, represent them as such=94.)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;;color:#1f497d"><span>B.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&qu=
ot;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"=
>Address the =93whole channel issue=94 by adding verbiage to the meaning of=
 the =93FCC 2010 Ruleset=94 that states expressly that =93startHz=94 and =
=93stopHz=94 values must be constrained to actual U.S. television channel b=
and edges.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thoughts?<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Dan Harasty</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-seri=
f&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
paws mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>-vince
</div>

--001a113497501c1c6d04ed301cd5--

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Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:55:43 -0800
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From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
To: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com>
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Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] proposal to update PAWS doc regarding vCard
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--089e013c71f642f1a604ed31d244
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Peter,

Thanks for the reminder. How about something like this?

All contact information MUST be expressed using the structure defined
by the vCard Format Specification [RFC6350]. At minimum, the
information MUST include:

 - At least one of the following:

   fn: Full name of an individual
   org:  Name of the organization

 - Each of the following:

   adr:  Address fields
   tel:  Telephone numbers
   email:  Email addresses

Names of organizations MUST use the "org" field and names of individuals MU=
ST
use the "fn" field.



On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Peter Stanforth
<peter@spectrumbridge.com>wrote:

> Do we know that name and organization are both required?
> Is it not more reasonable to think one or the other is required?
> Peter S.
>
> From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
> Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:24 AM
> To: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
> Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [paws] proposal to update PAWS doc regarding vCard
>
> Dan,
>
> I think not restricting to a subset of vCard fields is a good idea. But I
> believe it's still reasonable to require a minimum set of fields.
>
> The current text for Section 5.5 of draft 07 reads:
>
>    All contact information MUST be expressed using the structure defined
>    by the vCard Format Specification [RFC6350].  Only the contact fields
>    of vCard are supported:
>
>    fn Full name of an individual
>    org  Name of the organization
>    adr  Address fields
>    tel  Telephone numbers
>    email  Email addresses
>
>
> I think that word, "Only", was a poor choice on my part. The intent was
> not to restrict to only these fields
> but to indicate that these are minimum required fields.
>
> A regulatory domain may require additional fields, but those should be
> documented in the
> IANA Considerations section under the appropriate Ruleset ID sections.
>
> It might also make sense to add statements, such as,
>
>   Names of organizations MUST use the "org" field. Names of individuals
> MUST use the "fn" field.
>
> -vince
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <dharasty@appcomsci.com=
>wrote:
>
>> PAWS WG,
>>
>>
>>
>> The team I=92m on is active both with PAWS, and with the other US WS DBA=
s
>> in the =93InterOp forum=94 to define the exchange of records between US =
WS DBAs.
>>
>>
>>
>> The PAWS spec and InterOp specs are just slightly out-of-sync on how
>> vCard objects are handled.
>>
>> =B7         They state different subsets are =93the only supported field=
s=94
>>
>> o   Example: InterOp states =93N=94 is supported, PAWS states it is excl=
uded.
>>
>> =B7         They state different datatype restrictions.
>>
>> o   Example: InterOp allows only =93text=94 and =93integer=94, PAWS allo=
ws =93uri=94
>> types.
>>
>> =B7         Neither states how a recipient is supposed to handle/reject =
a
>> message that has =93extra=94 fields.
>>
>>
>>
>> But most importantly, IMO, there is no particular implementation
>> advantage to an =93approved subset=94; in fact, it tends to complicate t=
hings.
>> In effect, the implementation *required *to add ad-hoc validations (to
>> determine that certain fields are NOT present) , either custom validatio=
ns
>> after the use of a generic vCard library / parser, or implementation of
>> a custom vCard parser.
>>
>>
>>
>> Furthermore, everywhere else (outside the vCard) PAWS expressly
>> *requires* message recipients to =93ignore all parameters it does not
>> understand=94.   Why not apply the same design concept to parsing of vCa=
rds?
>>
>>
>>
>> As such I=92d like to propose to PAWSa different approach:
>>
>> =B7         The sender must send valid vCard, and must include anything
>> required by its regulatory domain.  (All optional fields allowed by the
>> vCard spec are expressly allowed in the InterOp/PAWS messages.)
>>
>> =B7         The recipient must parse/accept any valid vCard, and may
>> ignore fields that are not required by the regulatory domain.
>>
>>
>>
>> This approach is MUCH simpler to state, MUCH simpler to implement, much
>> more consistent with current practices (allow sending optional fields), =
and
>> =96 if approved by both =96 removes the disparities between the two spec=
s
>> regarding encoding of contacts.
>>
>>
>>
>> I=92ve already presented the same to the US InterOp team, and believe th=
ere
>> is general support for this approach in the InterOp spec.
>>
>>
>>
>> If, after a discussion here, there is general agreement, I=92m willing t=
o
>> draft updated text for Section =935.5.  DeviceOwner=94=85 and the whole =
of it
>> will probably be shorter than this email!
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan Harasty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> paws mailing list
>> paws@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -vince
>



--=20
-vince

--089e013c71f642f1a604ed31d244
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Peter,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the reminder. How abo=
ut something like this?</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"white-space:=
pre-wrap;word-wrap:break-word">All contact information MUST be expressed us=
ing the structure defined
by the vCard Format Specification [RFC6350]. At minimum, the information<sp=
an style=3D"font-family:arial"> MUST include:</span></pre><pre style=3D"whi=
te-space:pre-wrap;word-wrap:break-word"> - At least one of the following:</=
pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;word-wrap:break-word">   fn: Full name o=
f an individual
   org:  Name of the organization</pre><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;w=
ord-wrap:break-word"> - Each of the following:</pre><pre style=3D"white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap;word-wrap:break-word">   adr:  Address fields
   tel:  Telephone numbers
   email:  Email addresses</pre><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;word-wra=
p:break-word">Names of organizations MUST use the &quot;org&quot; field and=
 names of individuals MUST
use the &quot;fn&quot; field.</pre></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Peter St=
anforth <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break=
-word"><div>Do we know that name and organization are both required?</div><=
div>Is it not more reasonable to think one or the other is required?</div>
<div>Peter S.</div><div><br></div><span><div style=3D"border-right:medium n=
one;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font=
-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df=
 1pt solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Vincent Chen &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:vchen@google.com" target=3D"_blank">vchen@google.com</a>&gt;<br><spa=
n style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:24 =
AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> &quot;Harasty, Daniel J&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com" target=3D"_blank">dharasty@ap=
pcomsci.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> &quot;<=
a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [paws] proposal to up=
date PAWS doc regarding vCard<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div><div c=
lass=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dan,
<div><br></div><div>I think not restricting to a subset of vCard fields is =
a good idea. But I believe it&#39;s still reasonable to require a minimum s=
et of fields.</div><div><br></div><div>The current text for Section 5.5 of =
draft 07 reads:</div>
<div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;word-wrap:break-word=
">   All contact information MUST be expressed using the structure defined
   by the vCard Format Specification [RFC6350].  Only the contact fields
   of vCard are supported:

   fn Full name of an individual
   org  Name of the organization
   adr  Address fields
   tel  Telephone numbers
   email  Email addresses
</pre></div><div><br></div><div>I think that word, &quot;Only&quot;, was a =
poor choice on my part. The intent was not to restrict to only these fields=
</div><div>but to indicate that these are minimum required fields.</div>
<div><br></div><div>A regulatory domain may require additional fields, but =
those should be documented in the</div><div>IANA Considerations section und=
er the appropriate Ruleset ID sections.</div><div><br></div><div>It might a=
lso make sense to add statements, such as,</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0 Names of organizations MUST use the &quot;org&quot;=
 field. Names of individuals MUST use the &quot;fn&quot; field.</div><div><=
br></div><div>-vince</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Mon, Dec 9, 20=
13 at 8:28 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com" target=3D"_blank">dharasty@ap=
pcomsci.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div><div class=3D"=
h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">PAWS WG,</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The team I=92m on is <=
/span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">active both with PAWS, and with the oth=
er US WS DBAs in the =93InterOp forum=94 to define the exchange of records =
between US WS DBAs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The PAWS spec an=
d InterOp specs are just slightly out-of-sync on how vCard objects are hand=
led.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font=
-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-hei=
ght:normal;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">They state differ=
ent subsets are =93the only supported fields=94<u></u><u></u></span></p><p =
style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;;color:#1f497d"><span>o<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:=
&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=A0=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Example: InterOp =
states =93N=94 is supported, PAWS states it is excluded.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p><p><u></u><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>=B7<span style=
=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;=
line-height:normal;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">They state differ=
ent datatype restrictions.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style=3D"margin-left:=
1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:#1f4=
97d"><span>o<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&=
#39;">=A0=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Example: InterOp =
allows only =93text=94 and =93integer=94, PAWS allows =93uri=94 types.<u></=
u><u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>=
=B7<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;=
font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Neither states ho=
w a recipient is supposed to handle/reject a message that has =93extra=94 f=
ields.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">But most importantly, =
IMO, there is no particular implementation advantage to an =93approved subs=
et=94; in fact, it tends to complicate things</span><span style=3D"color:#1=
f497d">.=A0 In effect, the implementation
<i>required </i>to add ad-hoc validations (to determine that certain fields=
 are NOT present) , either custom validations after the use of a
</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">generic vCard library / parser, or imp=
lementation of a custom vCard parser.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Furthermore, everywhere else (outside the vCa=
rd) PAWS expressly
<i>requires</i> message recipients to =93ignore all parameters it does not =
understand=94.=A0=A0 Why not apply the same design concept to parsing of vC=
ards?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#=
1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">As such I=
=92d like to propose to PAWS</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"></span><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1f497d">a different approach:<u></u><u></u></span></p><d=
iv class=3D"im">
<p><u></u><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font=
-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-hei=
ght:normal;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The sender must s=
end valid vCard, and must include anything required by its regulatory domai=
n.=A0 (All optional fields allowed by the vCard spec are expressly allowed =
in the InterOp/PAWS messages.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>=B7<span style=3D"font=
-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-hei=
ght:normal;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;">=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">The recipient mus=
t parse/accept any valid vCard, and may ignore fields that are not required=
 by the regulatory domain.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">This approach is MUCH simpler to state,=
 MUCH simpler to implement, much more consistent with current practices (al=
low sending optional fields), and =96 if approved by both =96 removes the d=
isparities between the
 two specs regarding encoding of contacts.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">I=92ve already presented=
 the same to the US InterOp team, and believe there is general support for =
this approach in the InterOp spec.</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">If, after a disc=
ussion here, there is general agreement, I=92m willing to draft updated tex=
t for Section =935.5.=A0 DeviceOwner=94=85 and the whole of it will probabl=
y be shorter than this email!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Dan</span><span =
style=3D"color:#1f497d"> Harasty</span><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p></div></div></div><=
div class=3D"im">
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
paws mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">paw=
s@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><br><br></div=
></blockquote>
</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all">=
<div><br></div>
-- <br>
-vince </font></span></div></div></div></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>-vince
</div>

--089e013c71f642f1a604ed31d244--

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Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:28:03 -0800
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I am not sure I get Brian's point, but....
The kind of TVWS devices I am dealing with fall into a couple groups.

We have mains powered, resource rich devices that have an internet 
connection, all the memory needed to implement a complete IP protocol 
stack including PAWS, and a high data rate connection to the internet.  
An 802.11 access point is an example of this sort  of device.

There are battery or mains powered, transitory devices that have the 
resource to implement a complete IP stack, assume a reasonable high data 
rate connection to the internet, have the battery capacity to operate 
for a couple days between recharging.  An 802.11 STA in a portable 
device (phone, tablet, PC) might be an example of this kind of device.  
Another example is a M2M device with moderate (1Mbps) interface through 
a gateway.

A resource constrained device may have no IP stack, or a stripped down 
IP stack (UDP, 6loWPAN, ...). Some may have to run for many years on 
battery. Likely no direct internet connection, or squeezes through a 
gateway on a very low data rate wireless link. It may have only an 
wireless interface.  Raw bit rate  is low (100kbps or less) and 
effective throughput much lower. Such devices may be "sleepy" meaning 
they turn off all but a few gates most of the time, only communicate 
when there is something to say.  A low cost remote sensor is an example 
of this sort of device.

PAWS is targeted at the first category, and IMO  will work for the 
second category.  Not ideal for the last category.    I think the 
fundamental assumptions driving protocol design are so different that it 
would be a mistake at this stage to try and make PAWS fit the really 
slim device.

Hope that helps.
Ben




On 12/10/2013 5:53 AM, Rosen, Brian wrote:
> <personal opinion>
> I don't have an objection to doing that, but it won't do anything 
> substantial to the problem.
>
> We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years. 
>  Our experience is this kind of thing has little effect on 
> implementations other than complicating debugging.
>
> Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps 
> substantially reduce message size, also substantially complicates 
> debugging, and, in general, we don't think it actually helps 
> implementations.
>
> You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 
> 10KB, which any decent compression system should be able to do, would 
> actually make any difference to a device implemented this year?  If 
> those Ks were Ms, it might be worth thinking about, but Ks?  Please.
>
> Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, 
> clearly insufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.
>
> Brian
>
>
> From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk 
> <mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>
> Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM
> To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com 
> <mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
> Cc: "paws@ietf.org <mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org 
> <mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message 
> format
>
>
> On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com 
> <mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:
>
>> Dan, Vince,
>> When you say that you don't want to have aliases and just want to 
>> decide on short names, does that mean that the current long names 
>> would be changed to short names and the  long names would not be 
>> supported?
>
> That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a 
> good idea.
>
> Ray
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


--------------090904040907090001000401
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    I am not sure I get Brian's point, but....<br>
    The kind of TVWS devices I am dealing with fall into a couple
    groups. <br>
    <br>
    We have mains powered, resource rich devices that have an internet
    connection, all the memory needed to implement a complete IP
    protocol stack including PAWS, and a high data rate connection to
    the internet.&nbsp; An 802.11 access point is an example of this sort&nbsp; of
    device. <br>
    <br>
    There are battery or mains powered, transitory devices that have the
    resource to implement a complete IP stack, assume a reasonable high
    data rate connection to the internet, have the battery capacity to
    operate for a couple days between recharging.&nbsp; An 802.11 STA in a
    portable device (phone, tablet, PC) might be an example of this kind
    of device.&nbsp; Another example is a M2M device with moderate (1Mbps)
    interface through a gateway. <br>
    <br>
    A resource constrained device may have no IP stack, or a stripped
    down IP stack (UDP, 6loWPAN, ...). Some may have to run for many
    years on battery. Likely no direct internet connection, or squeezes
    through a gateway on a very low data rate wireless link. It may have
    only an wireless interface.&nbsp; Raw bit rate&nbsp; is low (100kbps or less)
    and effective throughput much lower. Such devices may be "sleepy"
    meaning they turn off all but a few gates most of the time, only
    communicate when there is something to say.&nbsp; A low cost remote
    sensor is an example of this sort of device.<br>
    <br>
    PAWS is targeted at the first category, and IMO&nbsp; will work for the
    second category.&nbsp; Not ideal for the last category.&nbsp; &nbsp; I think the
    fundamental assumptions driving protocol design are so different
    that it would be a mistake at this stage to try and make PAWS fit
    the really slim device. <br>
    <br>
    Hope that helps.<br>
    Ben<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/10/2013 5:53 AM, Rosen, Brian
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CECC858F.300DD%25brian.rosen@neustar.biz"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <div>&lt;personal opinion&gt;</div>
      <div>I don&#8217;t have an objection to doing that, but it won&#8217;t do
        anything substantial to the problem. &nbsp;</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the
        years. &nbsp;Our experience is this kind of thing has little effect
        on implementations other than complicating debugging.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often
        helps substantially reduce message size, also substantially
        complicates debugging, and, in general, we don&#8217;t think it
        actually helps implementations.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB
        to, say 10KB, which any decent compression system should be able
        to do, would actually make any difference to a device
        implemented this year? &nbsp;If those Ks were Ms, it might be worth
        thinking about, but Ks? &nbsp;Please.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or
        so, clearly insufficient to do anything other than confuse
        humans.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Brian</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
        <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
          text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
          BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
          0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
          BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
          <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ray Bellis &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December
          10, 2013 at 8:34 AM<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Don Joslyn &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>"
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws]
          Proposal to optionally support shortened message format<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
            -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
            <br>
            <div>
              <div>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn &lt;<a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;
                wrote:</div>
              <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family:
                  CourierNewPSMT; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal;
                  font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
                  letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
                  auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                  text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
                  auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                  0px;" lang="EN-US">
                  <div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;">
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
                      <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                        Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dan,
                        Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
                      <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                        Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div>
                    <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                      12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
                      <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                        Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">When
                        you say that you don&#8217;t want to have aliases and
                        just want to decide on short names, does that
                        mean that the current long names would be
                        changed to short names and the &nbsp;long names would
                        not be supported?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <br>
            </div>
            <div>That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and
              I think it's a good idea.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Ray</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </span>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:40:09 -0800
From: "Benjamin A. Rolfe" <ben@blindcreek.com>
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And sending several 14k octet messages to register, request, get 
response...and then send 10 octet message contain a status of "full" and 
a time stamp?

Hm.  That sensor probably has only a wireless link, with datarate in the 
slow to really slow range. You need a protocol optimized for the trash 
can sensor if it's really going to work.
<shameless bragging> And I know where you can find one! Take a look at 
IEEE 802.15.4m.  Compact over the air encoding of the essential 
register/request/response messages. For an app like the trash can 
sensor, you would have an edge device (mains powered) that talks to the 
database (using PAWS or whatever  is required), possibly keeping a local 
cache of what's available for it's area.</shameless bragging>
-Ben
:-)

On 12/10/2013 7:28 AM, Rosen, Brian wrote:
> It doesn't need a channel assignment until it needs to send a message. 
>  When it wants to send a message, it goes online, registers, requests 
> and sends.  Then it goes off line.
>
> Brian
>
> From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com 
> <mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 10:14 AM
> To: Brian Rosen <brian.rosen@neustar.biz 
> <mailto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz>>, Ray Bellis 
> <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk <mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>, Don 
> Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com <mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
> Cc: "paws@ietf.org <mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org 
> <mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message 
> format
>
> UK example. Sensor on a trash can. Wants to talk (real data) only when 
> the can is full (once a week?) battery goal is 5 years.  Ofcom 
> requires channel validation every 15 minutes. So it is sending 672 
> overhead messages for every useful one. The validation times are not 
> going to get longer, only shorter, when we move into other bands. Not 
> everything wireless is a smart phone. There may be 6B of those 
> eventually but the projections for M2M are nearly 10 times that.
>
> From: <Rosen>, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz 
> <mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>>
> Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:00 AM
> To: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com 
> <mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com>>, Ray Bellis 
> <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk <mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>, Don 
> Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com <mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
> Cc: "paws@ietf.org <mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org 
> <mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message 
> format
>
> We've looked at these kinds of claims.  If it meant 10% of battery, it 
> would be significant, but it almost never does.  In one example we 
> looked at, 30% change of message size changed battery by less than 1%.
>
> Yes, the radio is a significant drain on the battery, but so is CPU 
> and other interfaces.  You have to look at the entire message set 
> transmission over the typical charge/discharge cycle.  How often is 
> this message sent, and what other radio traffic is there when battery 
> charge is stressed?
>
> So, how often is it sent?  In the US, it's once every 24 hours unless 
> there are schedule changes.  The UK wants more.  What is their number? 
>  Once an hour?  Once every 15 minutes?  A master has to send an 
> equivalent message to every slave, but if I halve the size of a 
> message sent every 15 minutes while the device is servicing those 
> clients, what is the percentage of radio traffic due to the protocol?
>
> Could it even approximate 1%?  More likely .01%.  Then halve it size, 
> just to be aggressive.  What happens to battery?
>
> Brian
>
> From: Peter Stanforth <peter@spectrumbridge.com 
> <mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 9:44 AM
> To: Brian Rosen <brian.rosen@neustar.biz 
> <mailto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz>>, Ray Bellis 
> <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk <mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>, Don 
> Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com <mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
> Cc: "paws@ietf.org <mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org 
> <mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message 
> format
>
> Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge for many battery powered 
> transceivers. So yes 10% is meaningful
>
> From: <Rosen>, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz 
> <mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>>
> Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:53 AM
> To: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk 
> <mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>, Don Joslyn 
> <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com <mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
> Cc: "paws@ietf.org <mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org 
> <mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message 
> format
>
> <personal opinion>
> I don't have an objection to doing that, but it won't do anything 
> substantial to the problem.
>
> We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years. 
>  Our experience is this kind of thing has little effect on 
> implementations other than complicating debugging.
>
> Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps 
> substantially reduce message size, also substantially complicates 
> debugging, and, in general, we don't think it actually helps 
> implementations.
>
> You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 
> 10KB, which any decent compression system should be able to do, would 
> actually make any difference to a device implemented this year?  If 
> those Ks were Ms, it might be worth thinking about, but Ks?  Please.
>
> Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, 
> clearly insufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.
>
> Brian
>
>
> From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk 
> <mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>>
> Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM
> To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com 
> <mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>>
> Cc: "paws@ietf.org <mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org 
> <mailto:paws@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message 
> format
>
>
> On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com 
> <mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:
>
>> Dan, Vince,
>> When you say that you don't want to have aliases and just want to 
>> decide on short names, does that mean that the current long names 
>> would be changed to short names and the  long names would not be 
>> supported?
>
> That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a 
> good idea.
>
> Ray
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


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    And sending several 14k octet messages to register, request, get
    response...and then send 10 octet message contain a status of "full"
    and a time stamp?&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    Hm.&nbsp; That sensor probably has only a wireless link, with datarate in
    the slow to really slow range. You need a protocol optimized for the
    trash can sensor if it's really going to work. <br>
    &lt;shameless bragging&gt; And I know where you can find one! Take a
    look at IEEE 802.15.4m.&nbsp; Compact over the air encoding of the
    essential register/request/response messages. For an app like the
    trash can sensor, you would have an edge device (mains powered) that
    talks to the database (using PAWS or whatever&nbsp; is required),
    possibly keeping a local cache of what's available for it's
    area.&lt;/shameless bragging&gt;<br>
    -Ben<br>
    :-)<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/10/2013 7:28 AM, Rosen, Brian
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CECC9C9B.3014D%25brian.rosen@neustar.biz"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <div>It doesn&#8217;t need a channel assignment until it needs to send a
        message. &nbsp;When it wants to send a message, it goes online,
        registers, requests and sends. &nbsp;Then it goes off line.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Brian</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
        <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
          text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
          BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
          0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
          BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
          <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Peter Stanforth
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December
          10, 2013 at 10:14 AM<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Brian Rosen &lt;<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz">brian.rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;,
          Ray Bellis &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;,
          Don Joslyn &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
            moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>"
          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
          <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [paws]
          Proposal to optionally support shortened message format<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
            -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
            font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
            <div>UK example. Sensor on a trash can. Wants to talk (real
              data) only when the can is full (once a week?) battery
              goal is 5 years. &nbsp;Ofcom requires channel validation every
              15 minutes. So it is sending 672 overhead messages for
              every useful one. The validation times are not going to
              get longer, only shorter, when we move into other bands.
              Not everything wireless is a smart phone. There may be 6B
              of those eventually but the projections for M2M are nearly
              10 times that.&nbsp;</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
              <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
                text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium
                none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in;
                PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
                #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none;
                PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
                <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;Rosen&gt;,
                Brian &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz">Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;<br>
                <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday,
                December 10, 2013 10:00 AM<br>
                <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Peter
                Stanforth &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;,
                Ray Bellis &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;,
                Don Joslyn &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
                <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>"
                &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
                [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message
                format<br>
              </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
                  space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color:
                  rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri,
                  sans-serif;">
                  <div>We&#8217;ve looked at these kinds of claims. &nbsp;If it
                    meant 10% of battery, it would be significant, but
                    it almost never does. &nbsp;In one example we looked at,
                    30% change of message size changed battery by less
                    than 1%.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Yes, the radio is a significant drain on the
                    battery, but so is CPU and other interfaces. &nbsp;You
                    have to look at the entire message set transmission
                    over the typical charge/discharge cycle. &nbsp;How often
                    is this message sent, and what other radio traffic
                    is there when battery charge is stressed? &nbsp;</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>So, how often is it sent? &nbsp;In the US, it&#8217;s once
                    every 24 hours unless there are schedule changes.
                    &nbsp;The UK wants more. &nbsp;What is their number? &nbsp;Once an
                    hour? &nbsp;Once every 15 minutes? &nbsp;A master has to send
                    an equivalent message to every slave, but if I halve
                    the size of a message sent every 15 minutes while
                    the device is servicing those clients, what is the
                    percentage of radio traffic due to the protocol?</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Could it even approximate 1%? &nbsp;More likely .01%.
                    &nbsp;Then halve it size, just to be aggressive. &nbsp;What
                    happens to battery?</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Brian</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
                    <div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
                      text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM:
                      medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none;
                      PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in;
                      PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
                      BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
                      <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Peter
                      Stanforth &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:peter@spectrumbridge.com">peter@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
                      <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday,
                      December 10, 2013 at 9:44 AM<br>
                      <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Brian
                      Rosen &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:brian.rosen@neustar.biz">brian.rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;,
                      Ray Bellis &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;,
                      Don Joslyn &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
                      <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>"
                      &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                      <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
                      [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened
                      message format<br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div style="word-wrap: break-word;
                        -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
                        after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
                        font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri,
                        sans-serif; ">
                        <div>Energy per transmitted bit, the challenge
                          for many battery powered transceivers. So yes
                          10% is meaningful</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
                          <div style="font-family:Calibri;
                            font-size:11pt; text-align:left;
                            color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
                            BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:
                            0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in;
                            BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT:
                            medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
                            <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;Rosen&gt;,
                            Brian &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz">Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz</a>&gt;<br>
                            <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday,
                            December 10, 2013 8:53 AM<br>
                            <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Ray
                            Bellis &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;,
                            Don Joslyn &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
                            <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>"
                            &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                            <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
                            [paws] Proposal to optionally support
                            shortened message format<br>
                          </div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div style="word-wrap: break-word;
                              -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;
                              color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px;
                              font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
                              <div>&lt;personal opinion&gt;</div>
                              <div>I don&#8217;t have an objection to doing
                                that, but it won&#8217;t do anything
                                substantial to the problem. &nbsp;</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>We have had discussions like this on
                                many protocols over the years. &nbsp;Our
                                experience is this kind of thing has
                                little effect on implementations other
                                than complicating debugging.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Using a formal compression scheme on
                                the entire message often helps
                                substantially reduce message size, also
                                substantially complicates debugging,
                                and, in general, we don&#8217;t think it
                                actually helps implementations.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>You really think that reducing
                                message sizes from, say 14KB to, say
                                10KB, which any decent compression
                                system should be able to do, would
                                actually make any difference to a device
                                implemented this year? &nbsp;If those Ks were
                                Ms, it might be worth thinking about,
                                but Ks? &nbsp;Please.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Shorter names probably only changes
                                messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly
                                insufficient to do anything other than
                                confuse humans.</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Brian</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
                                <div style="font-family:Calibri;
                                  font-size:11pt; text-align:left;
                                  color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium
                                  none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none;
                                  PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
                                  0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP:
                                  #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT:
                                  medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
                                  <span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ray
                                  Bellis &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;<br>
                                  <span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday,
                                  December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM<br>
                                  <span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Don
                                  Joslyn &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                  <span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>"
                                  &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                  <span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:
                                  </span>Re: [paws] Proposal to
                                  optionally support shortened message
                                  format<br>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <div style="word-wrap: break-word;
                                    -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                                    -webkit-line-break:
                                    after-white-space;">
                                    <br>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don
                                        Joslyn &lt;<a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;
                                        wrote:</div>
                                      <br
                                        class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                                      <blockquote type="cite">
                                        <div link="blue" vlink="purple"
                                          style="font-family:
                                          CourierNewPSMT; font-size:
                                          13px; font-style: normal;
                                          font-variant: normal;
                                          font-weight: normal;
                                          letter-spacing: normal;
                                          line-height: normal; orphans:
                                          auto; text-align: start;
                                          text-indent: 0px;
                                          text-transform: none;
                                          white-space: normal; widows:
                                          auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                                          -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                                          0px;" lang="EN-US">
                                          <div class="WordSection1"
                                            style="page: WordSection1;">
                                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                              0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                              font-family: 'Times New
                                              Roman', serif;">
                                              <span style="font-size:
                                                11pt; font-family:
                                                Calibri, sans-serif;
                                                color: rgb(31, 73,
                                                125);">Dan, Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                              0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                              font-family: 'Times New
                                              Roman', serif;">
                                              <span style="font-size:
                                                11pt; font-family:
                                                Calibri, sans-serif;
                                                color: rgb(31, 73,
                                                125);">&nbsp;</span></div>
                                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in
                                              0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
                                              font-family: 'Times New
                                              Roman', serif;">
                                              <span style="font-size:
                                                11pt; font-family:
                                                Calibri, sans-serif;
                                                color: rgb(31, 73,
                                                125);">When you say that
                                                you don&#8217;t want to have
                                                aliases and just want to
                                                decide on short names,
                                                does that mean that the
                                                current long names would
                                                be changed to short
                                                names and the &nbsp;long
                                                names would not be
                                                supported?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>That's my understanding of what
                                      has been proposed, and I think
                                      it's a good idea.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Ray</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </span></div>
                          </div>
                        </span></div>
                    </div>
                  </span></div>
              </div>
            </span></div>
        </div>
      </span>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com  Tue Dec 10 12:25:45 2013
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From: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:25:33 -0500
Thread-Topic: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format
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Brian, All,

My calculations for using two-character names within "spectrum" blocks show=
s ~37% reduction. Using two "spectrum"  blocks to define 40 channels for tw=
o bandwidths (for Ofcom) results in ~6500 characters uncompressed (not coun=
ting spaces) versus ~4050 compressed, saving ~2450 bytes for a fully loaded=
 (40 channel) Ofcom-compliant channel list reply. This does not include com=
pressing other names within the message, I'm only showing compression for t=
he "spectrum" blocks.

I realize that some WG members may object to this proposal, some may accept=
 it, and others may not care. If there is more to discuss for or against, I=
 hope others will present their opinion and supporting data. I hope we can =
come to a speedy decision so that radio vendors will know exactly what they=
 are dealing with. The message size in the current specification may be too=
 large for some to accept/implement, but as others have suggested, they can=
 always use a different protocol.

Thanks,
Don

From: Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:53 AM
To: Ray Bellis; Don Joslyn
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format

<personal opinion>
I don't have an objection to doing that, but it won't do anything substanti=
al to the problem.

We have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years.  Our ex=
perience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementations other t=
han complicating debugging.

Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps substan=
tially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, and, =
in general, we don't think it actually helps implementations.

You really think that reducing message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, w=
hich any decent compression system should be able to do, would actually mak=
e any difference to a device implemented this year?  If those Ks were Ms, i=
t might be worth thinking about, but Ks?  Please.

Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly in=
sufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.

Brian


From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk<mailto:Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.u=
k>>
Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM
To: Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.=
com>>
Cc: "paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>" <paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format


On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn <d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com<mailto:d.=
joslyn@spectrumbridge.com>> wrote:


Dan, Vince,

When you say that you don't want to have aliases and just want to decide on=
 short names, does that mean that the current long names would be changed t=
o short names and the  long names would not be supported?

That's my understanding of what has been proposed, and I think it's a good =
idea.

Ray



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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Brian, Al=
l,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My calculations for using two-character na=
mes within &#8220;spectrum&#8221; blocks shows ~37% reduction. Using two &#=
8220;spectrum&#8221; &nbsp;blocks to define 40 channels for two bandwidths =
(for Ofcom) results in ~6500 characters uncompressed (not counting spaces) =
versus ~4050 compressed, saving ~2450 bytes for a fully loaded (40 channel)=
 Ofcom-compliant channel list reply. This does not include compressing othe=
r names within the message, I&#8217;m only showing compression for the &#82=
20;spectrum&#8221; blocks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I realize that som=
e WG members may object to this proposal, some may accept it, and others ma=
y not care. If there is more to discuss for or against, I hope others will =
present their opinion and supporting data. I hope we can come to a speedy d=
ecision so that radio vendors will know exactly what they are dealing with.=
 The message size in the current specification may be too large for some to=
 accept/implement, but as others have suggested, they can always use a diff=
erent protocol.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Don<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top=
:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span=
></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Ro=
sen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, Decem=
ber 10, 2013 8:53 AM<br><b>To:</b> Ray Bellis; Don Joslyn<br><b>Cc:</b> paw=
s@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] Proposal to optionally support sho=
rtened message format<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>&lt;personal opinion&g=
t;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I don&#8217;t =
have an objection to doing that, but it won&#8217;t do anything substantial=
 to the problem. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>We =
have had discussions like this on many protocols over the years. &nbsp;Our =
experience is this kind of thing has little effect on implementations other=
 than complicating debugging.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blac=
k'>Using a formal compression scheme on the entire message often helps subs=
tantially reduce message size, also substantially complicates debugging, an=
d, in general, we don&#8217;t think it actually helps implementations.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>You really think that reducing =
message sizes from, say 14KB to, say 10KB, which any decent compression sys=
tem should be able to do, would actually make any difference to a device im=
plemented this year? &nbsp;If those Ks were Ms, it might be worth thinking =
about, but Ks? &nbsp;Please.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black=
'>Shorter names probably only changes messages sizes by 10% or so, clearly =
insufficient to do anything other than confuse humans.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:black'>Brian<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-=
top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:bl=
ack'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif";color:black'>Ray Bellis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ray.Bellis@nomi=
net.org.uk">Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, Dece=
mber 10, 2013 at 8:34 AM<br><b>To: </b>Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d.j=
oslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b=
>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [paw=
s] Proposal to optionally support shortened message format<o:p></o:p></span=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:black'>On 10 Dec 2013, at 13:03, Don Joslyn &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com">d.joslyn@spectrumbridge.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br><br><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dan, Vince,</span><sp=
an style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When you say that you don&#8217;t wan=
t to have aliases and just want to decide on short names, does that mean th=
at the current long names would be changed to short names and the &nbsp;lon=
g names would not be supported?</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>That's my understanding of what ha=
s been proposed, and I think it's a good idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:black'>Ray<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
To: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [paws] consider encoding numbers as integers where possible
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I'm going to split my reply, in case each issue has separate follow up, I f=
eel it is easier to track that way.

As for "requiring encoding integers as integers (with no decimal or exponen=
t part)"... I agree [enough] with Vince's comment, and withdraw my original=
 suggestion.

HERE'S the real nut of what I was originally getting at:


*         ENCODERS, BEWARE that JSON encoding of floats is problematic in t=
hat floats are usually only approximations of the number you mean to repres=
ent.  If you aim to represent (in a PAWS message) a large integer such as "=
644000000", then these are all acceptable JSON encodings:  "644000000" or "=
644e6" or "6.44e8".  However, if you use a float (internally in your implem=
entation) and your JSON encoder encodes this as "6.44000001e8" or "6.439999=
9e8"... then that is an error, as those are not the same as the integer "64=
4000000".


*         DECODERS, BEWARE that JSON decoders may or may not interpret the =
JSON-encoded numbers "644e6" and "6.44e8" as the integers that they are.  Y=
ou might end up with a [native] float out of your decoder, which may or may=
 not represent the actually integer "644000000", and that discrepancy may o=
r may not cause problems for your subsequent decoding.

I would suggest we include the above "warnings" as explanatory text somewhe=
re.  It could be a simple implementation note at the head of section 6.


From: Vincent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:53 AM
To: Harasty, Daniel J
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] consider encoding numbers as integers where possible

Dan,

I must disagree on the "integer issue".

In JavaScript/ECMAScript/JSON, there is only "Number". There is no integer =
vs float types. No matter how you choose to write it, it's the same "number=
".
I don't think we should try to define a restricted version of JSON, much as=
 your argument for vCard :)

As for the "whole channel issue", I suppose we might a statement to the "FC=
C 2010 Ruleset" section,
but I'm not quite sure what the concern is that this resolves? Is the conce=
rn that the Database might be
returning center frequencies for channels?

-vince

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <dharasty@appcomsci.com<m=
ailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com>> wrote:
PAWS WG,

I've been in some discussions where PAWS implementers have stated the follo=
wing preferences:


1.       Certain values in PAWS - such as "startHz", "stopHz", "resolutionB=
wHz", "powerDbmPerBw" - should be expressed in messages as integers rather =
than floats.

*         Example, encode the "startHz" of Channel 43 with the integer nota=
tion "644000000", rather than floating point notation such as "644e6" or "6=
.44e8".

*         Reason: internal representation of floats are rarely exact, and e=
quality operations are often complicated by this.


2.       Values such as "startHz" and "stopHz" should be constrained to act=
ual television channel band edges - at least in the US.

*         Reason: as a practical matter, as there is no concept - at this t=
ime - that the US databases will ever state the availability of "part" of a=
 US TV channel.

Both afford implementation simplification for the WS devices, and thus I th=
ink they deserve some discussion.  Is there a way to address this in the sp=
ec without removing future flexibility, or affecting use cases outside the =
US?

Here is one possibility:


A.      Address the "integer issue" with language to the effect of: "when e=
ncoding numeric values that are integers, the sender MUST use the JSON enco=
ding that avoids its representation as a float - that is, it must not use e=
ither the decimal point nor the exponent part".

(This is intentionally less draconian than stating that certain values like=
 "startHz" and "powerDbmPerBw" MUST be integers; rather "when they are inte=
gers, represent them as such".)


B.      Address the "whole channel issue" by adding verbiage to the meaning=
 of the "FCC 2010 Ruleset" that states expressly that "startHz" and "stopHz=
" values must be constrained to actual U.S. television channel band edges.

Thoughts?

Dan Harasty

_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws



--
-vince

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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;m=
 going to split my reply, in case each issue has separate follow up, I feel=
 it is easier to track that way.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As for &#822=
0;requiring encoding integers as integers (with no decimal or exponent part=
)&#8221;&#8230; I agree [enough] with Vince&#8217;s comment, and withdraw m=
y original suggestion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>HERE&#8217;S the real =
nut of what I was originally getting at:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph styl=
e=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span=
 style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style=3D=
'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'>ENCODERS, BEWARE that JSON encoding of floats is problematic in tha=
t floats are usually only approximations of the number you mean to represen=
t.&nbsp; If you aim to represent (in a PAWS message) a large integer such a=
s &#8220;644000000&#8221;, then these are all acceptable JSON encodings: &n=
bsp;&#8220;644000000&#8221; or &#8220;644e6&#8221; or &#8220;6.44e8&#8221;.=
&nbsp; However, if you use a float (internally in your implementation) and =
your JSON encoder encodes this as &#8220;6.44000001e8&#8221; or &#8220;6.43=
99999e8&#8221;&#8230; then that is an error, as those are not the same as t=
he integer &#8220;644000000&#8221;.<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><!=
[if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color=
:#1F497D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt=
 "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span=
></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>DECODERS, BEWARE that JSON decoders may or =
may not interpret the JSON-encoded numbers &#8220;644e6&#8221; and &#8220;6=
.44e8&#8221; as the integers that they are.&nbsp; You might end up with a [=
native] float out of your decoder, which may or may not represent the actua=
lly integer &#8220;644000000&#8221;, and that discrepancy may or may not ca=
use problems for your subsequent decoding.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I =
would suggest we include the above &#8220;warnings&#8221; as explanatory te=
xt somewhere.&nbsp; It could be a simple implementation note at the head of=
 section 6.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0=
in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ta=
homa","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Vincent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com] <br><b>=
Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:53 AM<br><b>To:</b> Harasty, Daniel=
 J<br><b>Cc:</b> paws@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] consider encod=
ing numbers as integers where possible<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dan,<o:p></o:p>=
</p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal>I must disagree on the &quot;integer issue&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal>In JavaScript/ECMAScript/JSON, there is only &quot;Number&quot;. The=
re is no integer vs float types. No matter how you choose to write it, it's=
 the same &quot;number&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
>I don't think we should try to define a restricted version of JSON, much a=
s your argument for vCard :)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>As for the &quot;whole=
 channel issue&quot;, I suppose we might a statement to the &quot;FCC 2010 =
Ruleset&quot; section,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>but I'=
m not quite sure what the concern is that this resolves? Is the concern tha=
t the Database might be<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>retur=
ning center frequencies for channels?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-vince<=
o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:=
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 =
at 9:18 AM, Harasty, Daniel J &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">dharasty@appcomsci.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>PAWS WG,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-=
margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ve been in some discussions where PA=
WS implementers have stated the following preferences:</span><o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1.</span><span style=
=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </s=
pan><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1F497D'>Certain values in PAWS &#8211; such as &#8220;startHz&#8221;, &#=
8220;stopHz&#8221;, &#8220;resolutionBwHz&#8221;, &#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#822=
1; &#8211; should be expressed in messages as integers rather than floats.<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>&middot;</span><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif=
";color:#1F497D'>Example, encode the &#8220;startHz&#8221; of Channel 43 wi=
th the integer notation &#8220;644000000&#8221;, rather than floating point=
 notation such as &#8220;644e6&#8221; or &#8220;6.44e8&#8221;.</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>&middot;</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0p=
t;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F4=
97D'>Reason: internal representation of floats are rarely exact, and equali=
ty operations are often complicated by this.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><=
span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>2.</span><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=
Values such as &#8220;startHz&#8221; and &#8220;stopHz&#8221; should be con=
strained to actual television channel band edges &#8211; at least in the US=
.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>&middot;</span><span style=3D'=
font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-ser=
if";color:#1F497D'>Reason: as a practical matter, as there is no concept &#=
8211; at this time &#8211; that the US databases will ever state the availa=
bility of &#8220;part&#8221; of a US TV channel.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Both afford implementati=
on simplification for the WS devices, and thus I think they deserve some di=
scussion.&nbsp; Is there a way to address this in the spec without removing=
 future flexibility, or affecting use cases outside the US?</span><o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here is one =
possibility: </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></=
p><p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";col=
or:#1F497D'>A.</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Address the &#8220;integer issue&#8221=
; with language to the effect of: &#8220;when encoding numeric values that =
are integers, the sender MUST use the JSON encoding that avoids its represe=
ntation as a float &#8211; that is, it must not use either the decimal poin=
t nor the exponent part&#8221;.<br><br>(This is intentionally less draconia=
n than stating that certain values like &#8220;startHz&#8221; and &#8220;po=
werDbmPerBw&#8221; MUST be integers; rather &#8220;when they are integers, =
represent them as such&#8221;.)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</=
span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri=
","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>B.</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color=
:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Address the &#8220;w=
hole channel issue&#8221; by adding verbiage to the meaning of the &#8220;F=
CC 2010 Ruleset&#8221; that states expressly that &#8220;startHz&#8221; and=
 &#8220;stopHz&#8221; values must be constrained to actual U.S. television =
channel band edges.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'>Thoughts?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</=
span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;m=
so-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dan Harasty</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________=
________________________________<br>paws mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:=
paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw=
s</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br clear=3Dall><o:p></o=
:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal>-- <br>-vince <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>=

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From: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
To: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [paws] whole channel issue
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On the matter of my suggestion that "'startHz' and 'stopHz' should be const=
rained to actual television channel band edges - at least in the US", Vince=
 asked:

As for the "whole channel issue", I suppose we might a statement to the "FC=
C 2010 Ruleset" section, but I'm not quite sure what the concern is that th=
is resolves? Is the concern that the Database might be returning center fre=
quencies for channels?

No, the concern is not that this is ambiguous for the Database; the concern=
 - maybe misplaced - is that without this condition being imposed by the sp=
ec on the database, the Devices might need to go through a process of check=
ing that the band edges are "sensible"... as in, aligned with US TV band ed=
ges.

As a DB provider, I have no intention of sending "partial bands" under curr=
ent FCC rules.  So if this requirement makes the life of device manufacture=
rs easier, I'm willing to adopt it, as it is how I expect to operate anyway=
s.

I'll leave the matter open to support from device manufacturers.  If there =
is no particular voice of support, we can let this suggestion go.

(Aside: you see now how this is related to the "use exact JSON integers" is=
sue, as if the devices DO plan to check for "saneness" of band edges, then =
imprecise values are problematic.)

Dan Harasty


From: Vincent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:53 AM
To: Harasty, Daniel J
Cc: paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] consider encoding numbers as integers where possible

Dan,

I must disagree on the "integer issue".

In JavaScript/ECMAScript/JSON, there is only "Number". There is no integer =
vs float types. No matter how you choose to write it, it's the same "number=
".
I don't think we should try to define a restricted version of JSON, much as=
 your argument for vCard :)

As for the "whole channel issue", I suppose we might a statement to the "FC=
C 2010 Ruleset" section,
but I'm not quite sure what the concern is that this resolves? Is the conce=
rn that the Database might be
returning center frequencies for channels?

-vince

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Harasty, Daniel J <dharasty@appcomsci.com<m=
ailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com>> wrote:
PAWS WG,

I've been in some discussions where PAWS implementers have stated the follo=
wing preferences:


1.       Certain values in PAWS - such as "startHz", "stopHz", "resolutionB=
wHz", "powerDbmPerBw" - should be expressed in messages as integers rather =
than floats.

*         Example, encode the "startHz" of Channel 43 with the integer nota=
tion "644000000", rather than floating point notation such as "644e6" or "6=
.44e8".

*         Reason: internal representation of floats are rarely exact, and e=
quality operations are often complicated by this.


2.       Values such as "startHz" and "stopHz" should be constrained to act=
ual television channel band edges - at least in the US.

*         Reason: as a practical matter, as there is no concept - at this t=
ime - that the US databases will ever state the availability of "part" of a=
 US TV channel.

Both afford implementation simplification for the WS devices, and thus I th=
ink they deserve some discussion.  Is there a way to address this in the sp=
ec without removing future flexibility, or affecting use cases outside the =
US?

Here is one possibility:


A.      Address the "integer issue" with language to the effect of: "when e=
ncoding numeric values that are integers, the sender MUST use the JSON enco=
ding that avoids its representation as a float - that is, it must not use e=
ither the decimal point nor the exponent part".

(This is intentionally less draconian than stating that certain values like=
 "startHz" and "powerDbmPerBw" MUST be integers; rather "when they are inte=
gers, represent them as such".)


B.      Address the "whole channel issue" by adding verbiage to the meaning=
 of the "FCC 2010 Ruleset" that states expressly that "startHz" and "stopHz=
" values must be constrained to actual U.S. television channel band edges.

Thoughts?

Dan Harasty

_______________________________________________
paws mailing list
paws@ietf.org<mailto:paws@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws



--
-vince

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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>On the ma=
tter of my suggestion that &#8220;</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&#8217;startHz&#8217; and &=
#8216;stopHz&#8217; should be constrained to actual television channel band=
 edges &#8211; at least in the US&#8221;, Vince asked:<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>As for the &quot;whole channel issue&quot;, I=
 suppose we might a statement to the &quot;FCC 2010 Ruleset&quot; section, =
but I'm not quite sure what the concern is that this resolves? Is the conce=
rn that the Database might be returning center frequencies for channels?&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>No, the concern is not that this is ambiguous fo=
r the Database; the concern &#8211; maybe misplaced &#8211; is that without=
 this condition being imposed by the spec on the database, the Devices migh=
t need to go through a process of checking that the band edges are &#8220;s=
ensible&#8221;&#8230; as in, aligned with US TV band edges.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>As a DB provider, I have no intention of sending &#8220;part=
ial bands&#8221; under current FCC rules.&nbsp; So if this requirement make=
s the life of device manufacturers easier, I&#8217;m willing to adopt it, a=
s it is how I expect to operate anyways.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I&#8=
217;ll leave the matter open to support from device manufacturers.&nbsp; If=
 there is no particular voice of support, we can let this suggestion go.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(Aside: you see now how this is related to the =
&#8220;use exact JSON integers&#8221; issue, as if the devices DO plan to c=
heck for &#8220;saneness&#8221; of band edges, then imprecise values are pr=
oblematic.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dan Harasty<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Vinc=
ent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 10, 2=
013 10:53 AM<br><b>To:</b> Harasty, Daniel J<br><b>Cc:</b> paws@ietf.org<br=
><b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] consider encoding numbers as integers where pos=
sible<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dan,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I must disagree on the &qu=
ot;integer issue&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>In JavaScript/ECMAScript/JS=
ON, there is only &quot;Number&quot;. There is no integer vs float types. N=
o matter how you choose to write it, it's the same &quot;number&quot;.<o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I don't think we should try to de=
fine a restricted version of JSON, much as your argument for vCard :)<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>As for the &quot;whole channel issue&quot;, I suppose we=
 might a statement to the &quot;FCC 2010 Ruleset&quot; section,<o:p></o:p><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>but I'm not quite sure what the concern =
is that this resolves? Is the concern that the Database might be<o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>returning center frequencies for channe=
ls?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-vince<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Harasty, Daniel J &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:dharasty@appcomsci.com" target=3D"_blank">dharasty@appcom=
sci.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>PAWS WG,</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso=
-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I=
&#8217;ve been in some discussions where PAWS implementers have stated the =
following preferences:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>1.</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Certain values in PAWS =
&#8211; such as &#8220;startHz&#8221;, &#8220;stopHz&#8221;, &#8220;resolut=
ionBwHz&#8221;, &#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#8221; &#8211; should be expressed in =
messages as integers rather than floats.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'm=
argin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:=
#1F497D'>&middot;</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Example, encode t=
he &#8220;startHz&#8221; of Channel 43 with the integer notation &#8220;644=
000000&#8221;, rather than floating point notation such as &#8220;644e6&#82=
21; or &#8220;6.44e8&#8221;.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'margin-left:1=
.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'>&mi=
ddot;</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Reason: internal representati=
on of floats are rarely exact, and equality operations are often complicate=
d by this.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-to=
p-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:=
#1F497D'>2.</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Values such as &#8220;startHz&#8221=
; and &#8220;stopHz&#8221; should be constrained to actual television chann=
el band edges &#8211; at least in the US.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style=3D'=
margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color=
:#1F497D'>&middot;</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Reason: as a pra=
ctical matter, as there is no concept &#8211; at this time &#8211; that the=
 US databases will ever state the availability of &#8220;part&#8221; of a U=
S TV channel.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'>Both afford implementation simplification for the WS device=
s, and thus I think they deserve some discussion.&nbsp; Is there a way to a=
ddress this in the spec without removing future flexibility, or affecting u=
se cases outside the US?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-marg=
in-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here is one possibility: </span><o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=
auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";co=
lor:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A.</span><span style=3D'=
font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Address the &#8220;integer issue&#8221; with language to the effect of: &#=
8220;when encoding numeric values that are integers, the sender MUST use th=
e JSON encoding that avoids its representation as a float &#8211; that is, =
it must not use either the decimal point nor the exponent part&#8221;.<br><=
br>(This is intentionally less draconian than stating that certain values l=
ike &#8220;startHz&#8221; and &#8220;powerDbmPerBw&#8221; MUST be integers;=
 rather &#8220;when they are integers, represent them as such&#8221;.)</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-=
margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>B.</=
span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>Address the &#8220;whole channel issue&#8221; by addin=
g verbiage to the meaning of the &#8220;FCC 2010 Ruleset&#8221; that states=
 expressly that &#8220;startHz&#8221; and &#8220;stopHz&#8221; values must =
be constrained to actual U.S. television channel band edges.</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bot=
tom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thoughts?</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;ms=
o-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=
Dan Harasty</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<b=
r>paws mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org">paws@ietf.org</a><b=
r><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><br><br clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <br>-vince <o:p></o:p></p=
></div></div></body></html>=

--_000_EC510C021D06A34C92F5A5A488B5290B0CF893A3rrcatsexmb2atsa_--

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From: Rex Buddenberg <buddenbergr@gmail.com>
To: "Harasty, Daniel J" <dharasty@appcomsci.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] whole channel issue
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Dan,

When we discussed this some months ago on the list, my concern was the
inverse.  Looking beyond just TV white space to a day when we might
recycle other bands that are allocated in different (mostly narrowband)
shapes today.
      For instance, I know of one vendor who has 802.16 implementations
that work in the VHF band.  This gear needs several 25kHz channels,
adjacent to each other -- a bare minimum of 200kHz (and much happier
with twice that).  
      I'll immediately agree that this is not necessary in the TV bands,
and therefore here-and-now.  But I didn't want to see the option
foreclosed before we get to it, perhaps in a v2.  
      Indifferent how the band is specified as long as we can get the
aggregation.




On Tue, 2013-12-10 at 21:36 +0000, Harasty, Daniel J wrote:
> On the matter of my suggestion that “’startHz’ and ‘stopHz’ should be
> constrained to actual television channel band edges – at least in the
> US”, Vince asked:
> 
>  
> 
> As for the "whole channel issue", I suppose we might a statement to
> the "FCC 2010 Ruleset" section, but I'm not quite sure what the
> concern is that this resolves? Is the concern that the Database might
> be returning center frequencies for channels? 
> 
>  
> 
> No, the concern is not that this is ambiguous for the Database; the
> concern – maybe misplaced – is that without this condition being
> imposed by the spec on the database, the Devices might need to go
> through a process of checking that the band edges are “sensible”… as
> in, aligned with US TV band edges.
> 
>  
> 
> As a DB provider, I have no intention of sending “partial bands” under
> current FCC rules.  So if this requirement makes the life of device
> manufacturers easier, I’m willing to adopt it, as it is how I expect
> to operate anyways.
> 
>  
> 
> I’ll leave the matter open to support from device manufacturers.  If
> there is no particular voice of support, we can let this suggestion
> go.
> 
>  
> 
> (Aside: you see now how this is related to the “use exact JSON
> integers” issue, as if the devices DO plan to check for “saneness” of
> band edges, then imprecise values are problematic.)
> 
>  
> 
> Dan Harasty
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: Vincent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:53 AM
> To: Harasty, Daniel J
> Cc: paws@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [paws] consider encoding numbers as integers where
> possible
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Dan,
> 
>  
> 
> 
> I must disagree on the "integer issue".
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> In JavaScript/ECMAScript/JSON, there is only "Number". There is no
> integer vs float types. No matter how you choose to write it, it's the
> same "number".
> 
> 
> I don't think we should try to define a restricted version of JSON,
> much as your argument for vCard :)
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> As for the "whole channel issue", I suppose we might a statement to
> the "FCC 2010 Ruleset" section,
> 
> 
> but I'm not quite sure what the concern is that this resolves? Is the
> concern that the Database might be
> 
> 
> returning center frequencies for channels? 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -vince
> 
> 
>  
> 
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Harasty, Daniel J
> <dharasty@appcomsci.com> wrote:
> 
> PAWS WG,
> 
>  
> 
> I’ve been in some discussions where PAWS implementers have stated the
> following preferences:
> 
>  
> 
> 1.       Certain values in PAWS – such as “startHz”, “stopHz”,
> “resolutionBwHz”, “powerDbmPerBw” – should be expressed in messages as
> integers rather than floats.
> 
> ·         Example, encode the “startHz” of Channel 43 with the integer
> notation “644000000”, rather than floating point notation such as
> “644e6” or “6.44e8”.
> 
> ·         Reason: internal representation of floats are rarely exact,
> and equality operations are often complicated by this.
> 
>  
> 
> 2.       Values such as “startHz” and “stopHz” should be constrained
> to actual television channel band edges – at least in the US.
> 
> ·         Reason: as a practical matter, as there is no concept – at
> this time – that the US databases will ever state the availability of
> “part” of a US TV channel.
> 
>  
> 
> Both afford implementation simplification for the WS devices, and thus
> I think they deserve some discussion.  Is there a way to address this
> in the spec without removing future flexibility, or affecting use
> cases outside the US?
> 
>  
> 
> Here is one possibility: 
> 
>  
> 
> A.      Address the “integer issue” with language to the effect of:
> “when encoding numeric values that are integers, the sender MUST use
> the JSON encoding that avoids its representation as a float – that is,
> it must not use either the decimal point nor the exponent part”.
> 
> (This is intentionally less draconian than stating that certain values
> like “startHz” and “powerDbmPerBw” MUST be integers; rather “when they
> are integers, represent them as such”.)
> 
>  
> 
> B.      Address the “whole channel issue” by adding verbiage to the
> meaning of the “FCC 2010 Ruleset” that states expressly that “startHz”
> and “stopHz” values must be constrained to actual U.S. television
> channel band edges.
> 
>  
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
>  
> 
> Dan Harasty
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -- 
> -vince 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws



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Subject: Re: [paws] wglc on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/
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Hi Gabor,

I don't think you can call this a full review, but I do have a few
questions/issues.

Two general questions:

Could my cell phone or Wifi-enabled device be a Slave or Master Device
in order to make use of the database or is the intent that only base
stations be the target?

Also, have we liaised this document to the IEEE 802.11 people and
do/would they care (see below about licensed/unlicensed)?



4.1.  Database Discovery (and elsewhere):


> 4.1.  Database Discovery
>
>    Different regulators may have different requirements for the approval
>    and operation of databases, such as:
>
>    o  A regulator may only allow a limited number of certified databases
>       to operate.  It also may require the certification of each device-
>       to-database pairing.
>    o  A regulator may maintain a trusted website that lists all approved
>       databases, known as the Listing Server.  It also may mandate how
>       devices use the listing server.
>
>    o  A regulator may allow each database to define its own terms of
>       use, so that, for example, an approved device may not be able to
>       access all approved databases.
>

The basis of this document is that the regulators are in direct contact
with the Master Device.  I have some concerns about that approach:

1.  It would seem to me computationally intensive on the part of the
regulator to compute a geometry/contour to determine which frequencies
are available.  As much as I would be worried about a single request, I
don't see why regulators would want to take such aggregate load.  Has a
regulator agreed to do so?  Or am I wrong about the computation?

2.  Much of this seems to be predicated on micro-auctions in secondary
spectrum.  Interesting idea and worth pursuing, however, the one week
period below seems to lead us to question what "micro" means in this
context.  See below for that.

3.  I may be demonstrating my parochial nature, but there is a lot of
complexity in this document that is predicated on the assumption that
licensed use will be permitted.  That is- a specific station license is
required to transmit.  Wouldn't this protocol simplify considerably if
it focused on unlicensed use?  In fact, wouldn't it boil down to a file
transfer protocol and a database format as opposed to bouncing all of
these queries back and forth?  My question really is how the authors
came to this approach.  I can imagine some arguments, such as wanting to
track down bad actors, but I raise the issue because of the plethora of
PII that could end up getting shipped to regulators on a regular basis
over this. 


Section 4.1.1:

>    Within a regulatory domain that has a Database Listing Server, a
>    Device MUST use it to determine the URLs of databases for the domain.
>    The URI of the Listing Server for a regulatory domain MAY be
>    preconfigured in the device.  Where allowed by the regulator, the
>    Device MAY save the database list and SHOULD contact the Database
>    Listing Server periodically to update its list.  The time between
>    such updates MUST be no longer than one week, or any update interval
>    required by the applicable regulatory domain, whichever is shorter.

I presume that in this paragraph, when you say "Device" you mean "Master
Device".  going further, it seems to me that the point should not be
whether or not such a device has direct Internet connectivity, but
whether or not it can receive updates.  Those updates could conceivably
come from many sources, including ones in which IP is not used.

Moreover, there seems to have been an arbitrary period of time chosen (1
week).  Why not state that in terms of the EventTime in AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP?

Thanks,

Eliot


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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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I=92ll take a stab at answering this:
On Dec 11, 2013, at 8:12 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Gabor,
>=20
> I don't think you can call this a full review, but I do have a few
> questions/issues.
>=20
> Two general questions:
>=20
> Could my cell phone or Wifi-enabled device be a Slave or Master Device
> in order to make use of the database or is the intent that only base
> stations be the target?
In most regulatory environments, the device that has the radio in the share=
d spectrum must contact the database.  You could imagine having a whitespac=
e radio in a next get cell phone, but generally the answer to the question =
is no.  Having said that, a database could, if it wanted to, grant anyone a=
ccess to the database.

>=20
> Also, have we liaised this document to the IEEE 802.11 people and
> do/would they care (see below about licensed/unlicensed)?
We have connected with the 802.22 folks, not 802.11.=20

>=20
>=20
>=20
> 4.1.  Database Discovery (and elsewhere):
>=20
>=20
>> 4.1.  Database Discovery
>>=20
>>   Different regulators may have different requirements for the approval
>>   and operation of databases, such as:
>>=20
>>   o  A regulator may only allow a limited number of certified databases
>>      to operate.  It also may require the certification of each device-
>>      to-database pairing.
>>   o  A regulator may maintain a trusted website that lists all approved
>>      databases, known as the Listing Server.  It also may mandate how
>>      devices use the listing server.
>>=20
>>   o  A regulator may allow each database to define its own terms of
>>      use, so that, for example, an approved device may not be able to
>>      access all approved databases.
>>=20
>=20
> The basis of this document is that the regulators are in direct contact
> with the Master Device. =20
No.  The database is in contact with the device, not the regulators.  The r=
egulators authorize the database, have access to it, but do not operate or =
manipulate it directly. =20

> I have some concerns about that approach:
>=20
> 1.  It would seem to me computationally intensive on the part of the
> regulator to compute a geometry/contour to determine which frequencies
> are available.  As much as I would be worried about a single request, I
> don't see why regulators would want to take such aggregate load.  Has a
> regulator agreed to do so?  Or am I wrong about the computation?
The database does the computation.  The contour calculations can be done in=
 advance, but would have to change as protected primary users change their =
use.  The database operation locates the device within the set of precalcul=
ated protected contours to determine which ones reduce the spectrum availab=
le to the whitespace device.

>=20
> 2.  Much of this seems to be predicated on micro-auctions in secondary
> spectrum.  Interesting idea and worth pursuing, however, the one week
> period below seems to lead us to question what "micro" means in this
> context.  See below for that
You are incorrect.  All secondary users (whitespace devices) in the same lo=
cation get the same spectrum availability.  There is no mechanism to alloca=
te or share that available spectrum.  There is some desire to provide that =
kind of service, but it is beyond our charter.

> .
>=20
> 3.  I may be demonstrating my parochial nature, but there is a lot of
> complexity in this document that is predicated on the assumption that
> licensed use will be permitted.  That is- a specific station license is
> required to transmit.  Wouldn't this protocol simplify considerably if
> it focused on unlicensed use?  In fact, wouldn't it boil down to a file
> transfer protocol and a database format as opposed to bouncing all of
> these queries back and forth?  My question really is how the authors
> came to this approach.  I can imagine some arguments, such as wanting to
> track down bad actors, but I raise the issue because of the plethora of
> PII that could end up getting shipped to regulators on a regular basis
> over this.=20
You have an incorrect model.
There is a set of licensed, protected users.  The database knows about them=
, and calculates contours to assure their use is protected.  There is a set=
 of unlicensed, but type-approved whitespace devices (which includes master=
s and slaves).  They are secondary users - they can use spectrum if none of=
 the primary, licensed users use it.  The secondary, unlicensed users ask t=
he database what spectrum is available at their location at that time.  The=
 database calculates which primary users would be affected by a secondary t=
ransmitter at that location and remove the primary user=92s spectrum from t=
he available secondary spectrum.  The database returns what is left (what s=
pectrum is not used by any primary user at that location at that time).

All of this is provided in a regulated environment.  The regulator decides =
what the protections are, and what the unlicensed devices have to do to use=
 the available spectrum.

>=20
>=20
> Section 4.1.1:
>=20
>>   Within a regulatory domain that has a Database Listing Server, a
>>   Device MUST use it to determine the URLs of databases for the domain.
>>   The URI of the Listing Server for a regulatory domain MAY be
>>   preconfigured in the device.  Where allowed by the regulator, the
>>   Device MAY save the database list and SHOULD contact the Database
>>   Listing Server periodically to update its list.  The time between
>>   such updates MUST be no longer than one week, or any update interval
>>   required by the applicable regulatory domain, whichever is shorter.
>=20
> I presume that in this paragraph, when you say "Device" you mean "Master
> Device".  going further, it seems to me that the point should not be
> whether or not such a device has direct Internet connectivity, but
> whether or not it can receive updates.  Those updates could conceivably
> come from many sources, including ones in which IP is not used.
This section is referring to the process by which the device (a master devi=
ce if there are master/slave devices) locates the database.  Not every use =
has slaves.  In some countries, there is a listing service of multiple comp=
eting database operators.  Only a database on that list may be used.  This =
is the control the regulator has on de-authorizing databases.

The PAWS protocol is based on IP transports.  We don=92t consider models wh=
ere there are alternatives to IP to access the listing service or the datab=
ase.=20

>=20
> Moreover, there seems to have been an arbitrary period of time chosen (1
> week).  Why not state that in terms of the EventTime in AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RE=
SP?
Again, this is the frequency at which the listing service must be requeried=
, not the database.  The frequency is normally set by the regulatory domain=
, and devices have to be built for one or more regulatory domains.   It=92s=
 much less often than the spectrum query.  This basically determines how qu=
ickly a regulator can de-authorize a database.

>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


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Brian,

Thanks for your quick response.  I may have some more questions later,
but let's see how far we get now.

On 12/11/13 3:14 PM, Rosen, Brian wrote:

> In most regulatory environments, the device that has the radio in the shared spectrum must contact the database.  You could imagine having a whitespace radio in a next get cell phone, but generally the answer to the question is no.  Having said that, a database could, if it wanted to, grant anyone access to the database.

ok
>
>> Also, have we liaised this document to the IEEE 802.11 people and
>> do/would they care (see below about licensed/unlicensed)?
> We have connected with the 802.22 folks, not 802.11.

ok
>  
>
>>
>>
>> 4.1.  Database Discovery (and elsewhere):
>>
>>
>>> 4.1.  Database Discovery
>>>
>>>   Different regulators may have different requirements for the approval
>>>   and operation of databases, such as:
>>>
>>>   o  A regulator may only allow a limited number of certified databases
>>>      to operate.  It also may require the certification of each device-
>>>      to-database pairing.
>>>   o  A regulator may maintain a trusted website that lists all approved
>>>      databases, known as the Listing Server.  It also may mandate how
>>>      devices use the listing server.
>>>
>>>   o  A regulator may allow each database to define its own terms of
>>>      use, so that, for example, an approved device may not be able to
>>>      access all approved databases.
>>>
>> The basis of this document is that the regulators are in direct contact
>> with the Master Device.  
> No.  The database is in contact with the device, not the regulators.  The regulators authorize the database, have access to it, but do not operate or manipulate it directly.  

ok
>
>> I have some concerns about that approach:
>>
>> 1.  It would seem to me computationally intensive on the part of the
>> regulator to compute a geometry/contour to determine which frequencies
>> are available.  As much as I would be worried about a single request, I
>> don't see why regulators would want to take such aggregate load.  Has a
>> regulator agreed to do so?  Or am I wrong about the computation?
> The database does the computation.  The contour calculations can be done in advance, but would have to change as protected primary users change their use.  The database operation locates the device within the set of precalculated protected contours to determine which ones reduce the spectrum available to the whitespace device.

Ok, so the issue here is the data capacity requirements, in terms of why
the calculation is done by the database and not by the (master) Device?
>
>> 2.  Much of this seems to be predicated on micro-auctions in secondary
>> spectrum.  Interesting idea and worth pursuing, however, the one week
>> period below seems to lead us to question what "micro" means in this
>> context.  See below for that
> You are incorrect.  All secondary users (whitespace devices) in the same location get the same spectrum availability.  There is no mechanism to allocate or share that available spectrum.  There is some desire to provide that kind of service, but it is beyond our charter.

Why then provide DeviceOwner if all secondary users are treated the
same?  That's how I leapt to my conclusion. Also see below.
>
>> .
>>
>> 3.  I may be demonstrating my parochial nature, but there is a lot of
>> complexity in this document that is predicated on the assumption that
>> licensed use will be permitted.  That is- a specific station license is
>> required to transmit.  Wouldn't this protocol simplify considerably if
>> it focused on unlicensed use?  In fact, wouldn't it boil down to a file
>> transfer protocol and a database format as opposed to bouncing all of
>> these queries back and forth?  My question really is how the authors
>> came to this approach.  I can imagine some arguments, such as wanting to
>> track down bad actors, but I raise the issue because of the plethora of
>> PII that could end up getting shipped to regulators on a regular basis
>> over this. 
> You have an incorrect model.
> There is a set of licensed, protected users.

Right.

>   The database knows about them, and calculates contours to assure their use is protected.  There is a set of unlicensed, but type-approved whitespace devices (which includes masters and slaves).

Sure.


>   They are secondary users - they can use spectrum if none of the primary, licensed users use it.

Right.

>   The secondary, unlicensed users ask the database what spectrum is available at their location at that time.


Ok, and see above about my question as to where the calculation takes place.

>   The database calculates which primary users would be affected by a secondary transmitter at that location and remove the primary user’s spectrum from the available secondary spectrum.  The database returns what is left (what spectrum is not used by any primary user at that location at that time).

ok
>
> All of this is provided in a regulated environment.  The regulator decides what the protections are, and what the unlicensed devices have to do to use the available spectrum.

The protocol is very well generalized.  But my leap of logic was again
due to DeviceOwner.
>
>>
>> Section 4.1.1:
>>
>>>   Within a regulatory domain that has a Database Listing Server, a
>>>   Device MUST use it to determine the URLs of databases for the domain.
>>>   The URI of the Listing Server for a regulatory domain MAY be
>>>   preconfigured in the device.  Where allowed by the regulator, the
>>>   Device MAY save the database list and SHOULD contact the Database
>>>   Listing Server periodically to update its list.  The time between
>>>   such updates MUST be no longer than one week, or any update interval
>>>   required by the applicable regulatory domain, whichever is shorter.
>> I presume that in this paragraph, when you say "Device" you mean "Master
>> Device".  going further, it seems to me that the point should not be
>> whether or not such a device has direct Internet connectivity, but
>> whether or not it can receive updates.  Those updates could conceivably
>> come from many sources, including ones in which IP is not used.
> This section is referring to the process by which the device (a master device if there are master/slave devices) locates the database.  Not every use has slaves.  In some countries, there is a listing service of multiple competing database operators.  Only a database on that list may be used.  This is the control the regulator has on de-authorizing databases.

ok

>
> The PAWS protocol is based on IP transports.  We don’t consider models where there are alternatives to IP to access the listing service or the database. 

ok

>
>> Moreover, there seems to have been an arbitrary period of time chosen (1
>> week).  Why not state that in terms of the EventTime in AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP?
> Again, this is the frequency at which the listing service must be requeried, not the database.  The frequency is normally set by the regulatory domain, and devices have to be built for one or more regulatory domains.   It’s much less often than the spectrum query.  This basically determines how quickly a regulator can de-authorize a database.

Got it.  Question: what happens if the database that authorized a device
to use a frequency with some parameters is de-authorized before
EventTime has expired?  Must the device submit a new request?  Is that
something that would be contained within a RuleSet (e.g., external)?


Thanks,

Eliot

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From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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> Ok, so the issue here is the data capacity requirements, in terms of why
> the calculation is done by the database and not by the (master) Device?

The calculations are complicated, and rely on the national DTT coverage dat=
a - the UK DTT tables alone (in uncompressed form) are expected to be many =
GBs in size.

In some jurisdictions the calculations also depend on frequently updated ta=
bles of other primary users.

It simply wouldn't scale for every "master device" to contain that data, no=
r keep them up to date.

Furthermore, the telecoms regulators typically only permit contracted (or l=
icensed) database operators to have access to this raw data, perform the ca=
lculations, and subsequently assign frequencies and power levels to devices=
.

Ray
 =

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>>> 1.  It would seem to me computationally intensive on the part of the
>>> regulator to compute a geometry/contour to determine which frequencies
>>> are available.  As much as I would be worried about a single request, I
>>> don't see why regulators would want to take such aggregate load.  Has a
>>> regulator agreed to do so?  Or am I wrong about the computation?
>> The database does the computation.  The contour calculations can be done=
 in advance, but would have to change as protected primary users change the=
ir use.  The database operation locates the device within the set of precal=
culated protected contours to determine which ones reduce the spectrum avai=
lable to the whitespace device.
>=20
> Ok, so the issue here is the data capacity requirements, in terms of why
> the calculation is done by the database and not by the (master) Device?
The database is big.  The contour calculation is hard to get right and its =
an expensive calculation involving a large, accurate topology (height) data=
set.  It=92s really important that two devices that query from the same pla=
ce at the same time get the same spectrum to use, so the regulator carefull=
y checks to make sure all the databases get the same answers to the same qu=
estion.  Much harder.

>>=20
>>> 2.  Much of this seems to be predicated on micro-auctions in secondary
>>> spectrum.  Interesting idea and worth pursuing, however, the one week
>>> period below seems to lead us to question what "micro" means in this
>>> context.  See below for that
>> You are incorrect.  All secondary users (whitespace devices) in the same=
 location get the same spectrum availability.  There is no mechanism to all=
ocate or share that available spectrum.  There is some desire to provide th=
at kind of service, but it is beyond our charter.
>=20
> Why then provide DeviceOwner if all secondary users are treated the
> same?  That's how I leapt to my conclusion. Also see below.
So an interfering device can be located and turned off.=20

>>> Moreover, there seems to have been an arbitrary period of time chosen (=
1
>>> week).  Why not state that in terms of the EventTime in AVAIL_SPECTRUM_=
RESP?
>> Again, this is the frequency at which the listing service must be requer=
ied, not the database.  The frequency is normally set by the regulatory dom=
ain, and devices have to be built for one or more regulatory domains.   It=
=92s much less often than the spectrum query.  This basically determines ho=
w quickly a regulator can de-authorize a database.
>=20
> Got it.  Question: what happens if the database that authorized a device
> to use a frequency with some parameters is de-authorized before
> EventTime has expired?  Must the device submit a new request?  Is that
> something that would be contained within a RuleSet (e.g., external)?
Time scales work.  The spectrum use expiration is a day or less.  The datab=
ase expiration is a week or less.  It works.

Brian


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From: <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com>
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Just a small correction:
I did send the link to 802.11af chairs for distributions to that task group=
 and invited comments from them.
Also, the PAWS progress is presented at every 802.11 plenary meeting, so in=
terested folks should know about the document and its status.

- Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 6:14 AM
To: Eliot Lear
Cc: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CTO/SiliconValley); <paws@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [paws] wglc on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paw=
s-protocol/

I'll take a stab at answering this:
On Dec 11, 2013, at 8:12 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Gabor,
>=20
> I don't think you can call this a full review, but I do have a few=20
> questions/issues.
>=20
> Two general questions:
>=20
> Could my cell phone or Wifi-enabled device be a Slave or Master Device=20
> in order to make use of the database or is the intent that only base=20
> stations be the target?
In most regulatory environments, the device that has the radio in the share=
d spectrum must contact the database.  You could imagine having a whitespac=
e radio in a next get cell phone, but generally the answer to the question =
is no.  Having said that, a database could, if it wanted to, grant anyone a=
ccess to the database.

>=20
> Also, have we liaised this document to the IEEE 802.11 people and=20
> do/would they care (see below about licensed/unlicensed)?
We have connected with the 802.22 folks, not 802.11.=20

>=20
>=20
>=20
> 4.1.  Database Discovery (and elsewhere):
>=20
>=20
>> 4.1.  Database Discovery
>>=20
>>   Different regulators may have different requirements for the approval
>>   and operation of databases, such as:
>>=20
>>   o  A regulator may only allow a limited number of certified databases
>>      to operate.  It also may require the certification of each device-
>>      to-database pairing.
>>   o  A regulator may maintain a trusted website that lists all approved
>>      databases, known as the Listing Server.  It also may mandate how
>>      devices use the listing server.
>>=20
>>   o  A regulator may allow each database to define its own terms of
>>      use, so that, for example, an approved device may not be able to
>>      access all approved databases.
>>=20
>=20
> The basis of this document is that the regulators are in direct=20
> contact with the Master Device.
No.  The database is in contact with the device, not the regulators.  The r=
egulators authorize the database, have access to it, but do not operate or =
manipulate it directly. =20

> I have some concerns about that approach:
>=20
> 1.  It would seem to me computationally intensive on the part of the
> regulator to compute a geometry/contour to determine which frequencies
> are available.  As much as I would be worried about a single request, I
> don't see why regulators would want to take such aggregate load.  Has a
> regulator agreed to do so?  Or am I wrong about the computation?
The database does the computation.  The contour calculations can be done in=
 advance, but would have to change as protected primary users change their =
use.  The database operation locates the device within the set of precalcul=
ated protected contours to determine which ones reduce the spectrum availab=
le to the whitespace device.

>=20
> 2.  Much of this seems to be predicated on micro-auctions in secondary
> spectrum.  Interesting idea and worth pursuing, however, the one week
> period below seems to lead us to question what "micro" means in this
> context.  See below for that
You are incorrect.  All secondary users (whitespace devices) in the same lo=
cation get the same spectrum availability.  There is no mechanism to alloca=
te or share that available spectrum.  There is some desire to provide that =
kind of service, but it is beyond our charter.

> .
>=20
> 3.  I may be demonstrating my parochial nature, but there is a lot of
> complexity in this document that is predicated on the assumption that
> licensed use will be permitted.  That is- a specific station license is
> required to transmit.  Wouldn't this protocol simplify considerably if
> it focused on unlicensed use?  In fact, wouldn't it boil down to a file
> transfer protocol and a database format as opposed to bouncing all of
> these queries back and forth?  My question really is how the authors
> came to this approach.  I can imagine some arguments, such as wanting to
> track down bad actors, but I raise the issue because of the plethora of
> PII that could end up getting shipped to regulators on a regular basis
> over this.=20
You have an incorrect model.
There is a set of licensed, protected users.  The database knows about them=
, and calculates contours to assure their use is protected.  There is a set=
 of unlicensed, but type-approved whitespace devices (which includes master=
s and slaves).  They are secondary users - they can use spectrum if none of=
 the primary, licensed users use it.  The secondary, unlicensed users ask t=
he database what spectrum is available at their location at that time.  The=
 database calculates which primary users would be affected by a secondary t=
ransmitter at that location and remove the primary user's spectrum from the=
 available secondary spectrum.  The database returns what is left (what spe=
ctrum is not used by any primary user at that location at that time).

All of this is provided in a regulated environment.  The regulator decides =
what the protections are, and what the unlicensed devices have to do to use=
 the available spectrum.

>=20
>=20
> Section 4.1.1:
>=20
>>   Within a regulatory domain that has a Database Listing Server, a
>>   Device MUST use it to determine the URLs of databases for the domain.
>>   The URI of the Listing Server for a regulatory domain MAY be
>>   preconfigured in the device.  Where allowed by the regulator, the
>>   Device MAY save the database list and SHOULD contact the Database
>>   Listing Server periodically to update its list.  The time between
>>   such updates MUST be no longer than one week, or any update interval
>>   required by the applicable regulatory domain, whichever is shorter.
>=20
> I presume that in this paragraph, when you say "Device" you mean "Master
> Device".  going further, it seems to me that the point should not be
> whether or not such a device has direct Internet connectivity, but
> whether or not it can receive updates.  Those updates could conceivably
> come from many sources, including ones in which IP is not used.
This section is referring to the process by which the device (a master devi=
ce if there are master/slave devices) locates the database.  Not every use =
has slaves.  In some countries, there is a listing service of multiple comp=
eting database operators.  Only a database on that list may be used.  This =
is the control the regulator has on de-authorizing databases.

The PAWS protocol is based on IP transports.  We don't consider models wher=
e there are alternatives to IP to access the listing service or the databas=
e.=20

>=20
> Moreover, there seems to have been an arbitrary period of time chosen (1
> week).  Why not state that in terms of the EventTime in AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RE=
SP?
Again, this is the frequency at which the listing service must be requeried=
, not the database.  The frequency is normally set by the regulatory domain=
, and devices have to be built for one or more regulatory domains.   It's m=
uch less often than the spectrum query.  This basically determines how quic=
kly a regulator can de-authorize a database.

>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


From ben@blindcreek.com  Wed Dec 11 21:05:06 2013
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Subject: Re: [paws] wglc on	https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/
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There is also a TVWS amendment to 802.15.4 that is nearing completion, 
for those that are interested.

And an additional remark:   FCC rules and OfCom as proposed allow for a 
device that is not directly connected to the database to operate through 
a cooperating peer that can connect and proxy for the device.

Using the example of a WiFi smart phone, it could perform the role of 
"master" or "slave", although it seems more natural as the "slave" 
(802.11 STA). If my Android had a 802.11af radio, it could with the 
right app act as an  AP while using the 4G network to contact the 
database, thus performing the "master" role.

-B



On 12/11/2013 1:36 PM, Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com wrote:
> Just a small correction:
> I did send the link to 802.11af chairs for distributions to that task group and invited comments from them.
> Also, the PAWS progress is presented at every 802.11 plenary meeting, so interested folks should know about the document and its status.
>
> - Gabor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 6:14 AM
> To: Eliot Lear
> Cc: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-CTO/SiliconValley); <paws@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [paws] wglc on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/
>
> I'll take a stab at answering this:
> On Dec 11, 2013, at 8:12 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gabor,
>>
>> I don't think you can call this a full review, but I do have a few
>> questions/issues.
>>
>> Two general questions:
>>
>> Could my cell phone or Wifi-enabled device be a Slave or Master Device
>> in order to make use of the database or is the intent that only base
>> stations be the target?
> In most regulatory environments, the device that has the radio in the shared spectrum must contact the database.  You could imagine having a whitespace radio in a next get cell phone, but generally the answer to the question is no.  Having said that, a database could, if it wanted to, grant anyone access to the database.
>
>> Also, have we liaised this document to the IEEE 802.11 people and
>> do/would they care (see below about licensed/unlicensed)?
> We have connected with the 802.22 folks, not 802.11.
>
>>
>>
>> 4.1.  Database Discovery (and elsewhere):
>>
>>
>>> 4.1.  Database Discovery
>>>
>>>    Different regulators may have different requirements for the approval
>>>    and operation of databases, such as:
>>>
>>>    o  A regulator may only allow a limited number of certified databases
>>>       to operate.  It also may require the certification of each device-
>>>       to-database pairing.
>>>    o  A regulator may maintain a trusted website that lists all approved
>>>       databases, known as the Listing Server.  It also may mandate how
>>>       devices use the listing server.
>>>
>>>    o  A regulator may allow each database to define its own terms of
>>>       use, so that, for example, an approved device may not be able to
>>>       access all approved databases.
>>>
>> The basis of this document is that the regulators are in direct
>> contact with the Master Device.
> No.  The database is in contact with the device, not the regulators.  The regulators authorize the database, have access to it, but do not operate or manipulate it directly.
>
>> I have some concerns about that approach:
>>
>> 1.  It would seem to me computationally intensive on the part of the
>> regulator to compute a geometry/contour to determine which frequencies
>> are available.  As much as I would be worried about a single request, I
>> don't see why regulators would want to take such aggregate load.  Has a
>> regulator agreed to do so?  Or am I wrong about the computation?
> The database does the computation.  The contour calculations can be done in advance, but would have to change as protected primary users change their use.  The database operation locates the device within the set of precalculated protected contours to determine which ones reduce the spectrum available to the whitespace device.
>
>> 2.  Much of this seems to be predicated on micro-auctions in secondary
>> spectrum.  Interesting idea and worth pursuing, however, the one week
>> period below seems to lead us to question what "micro" means in this
>> context.  See below for that
> You are incorrect.  All secondary users (whitespace devices) in the same location get the same spectrum availability.  There is no mechanism to allocate or share that available spectrum.  There is some desire to provide that kind of service, but it is beyond our charter.
>
>> .
>>
>> 3.  I may be demonstrating my parochial nature, but there is a lot of
>> complexity in this document that is predicated on the assumption that
>> licensed use will be permitted.  That is- a specific station license is
>> required to transmit.  Wouldn't this protocol simplify considerably if
>> it focused on unlicensed use?  In fact, wouldn't it boil down to a file
>> transfer protocol and a database format as opposed to bouncing all of
>> these queries back and forth?  My question really is how the authors
>> came to this approach.  I can imagine some arguments, such as wanting to
>> track down bad actors, but I raise the issue because of the plethora of
>> PII that could end up getting shipped to regulators on a regular basis
>> over this.
> You have an incorrect model.
> There is a set of licensed, protected users.  The database knows about them, and calculates contours to assure their use is protected.  There is a set of unlicensed, but type-approved whitespace devices (which includes masters and slaves).  They are secondary users - they can use spectrum if none of the primary, licensed users use it.  The secondary, unlicensed users ask the database what spectrum is available at their location at that time.  The database calculates which primary users would be affected by a secondary transmitter at that location and remove the primary user's spectrum from the available secondary spectrum.  The database returns what is left (what spectrum is not used by any primary user at that location at that time).
>
> All of this is provided in a regulated environment.  The regulator decides what the protections are, and what the unlicensed devices have to do to use the available spectrum.
>
>>
>> Section 4.1.1:
>>
>>>    Within a regulatory domain that has a Database Listing Server, a
>>>    Device MUST use it to determine the URLs of databases for the domain.
>>>    The URI of the Listing Server for a regulatory domain MAY be
>>>    preconfigured in the device.  Where allowed by the regulator, the
>>>    Device MAY save the database list and SHOULD contact the Database
>>>    Listing Server periodically to update its list.  The time between
>>>    such updates MUST be no longer than one week, or any update interval
>>>    required by the applicable regulatory domain, whichever is shorter.
>> I presume that in this paragraph, when you say "Device" you mean "Master
>> Device".  going further, it seems to me that the point should not be
>> whether or not such a device has direct Internet connectivity, but
>> whether or not it can receive updates.  Those updates could conceivably
>> come from many sources, including ones in which IP is not used.
> This section is referring to the process by which the device (a master device if there are master/slave devices) locates the database.  Not every use has slaves.  In some countries, there is a listing service of multiple competing database operators.  Only a database on that list may be used.  This is the control the regulator has on de-authorizing databases.
>
> The PAWS protocol is based on IP transports.  We don't consider models where there are alternatives to IP to access the listing service or the database.
>
>> Moreover, there seems to have been an arbitrary period of time chosen (1
>> week).  Why not state that in terms of the EventTime in AVAIL_SPECTRUM_RESP?
> Again, this is the frequency at which the listing service must be requeried, not the database.  The frequency is normally set by the regulatory domain, and devices have to be built for one or more regulatory domains.   It's much less often than the spectrum query.  This basically determines how quickly a regulator can de-authorize a database.
>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Eliot
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> paws mailing list
>> paws@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws
> _______________________________________________
> paws mailing list
> paws@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paws


From sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 21:54:32 2013
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From: sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com
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Hi,

 

Please find few comments based on my review of the new draft spec:

 

1. In AVAIL_SPECTRUM_REQ all parameters are shown optional. Does that mean
an empty request is ok? As  'Device descriptor' is required in response,
same should be the case in request too.

Also instead of 'location' and 'Master Device location', it will be better
to include 'location' and an optional 'Slave Device location' in case
request is on behave of slave, as Master is the default request entity.
Avail spectrum request can also include an optional time range, so that
database can send a filtered and useful set of spectrum for the given time
range, than the full set.

 

2. In SPECTRUM_USE_NOTIFY message 'spectra:list' parameter can include the
time range which the device intend to use the spectra, to improve QoS and
avoid too many request/response messages between master and database

 

3. Diagram in Section 4.5, which shows messages between master and device
can use different message tokens than the tokens used between master and
database. Which will make it explicitly clear that they are not the same.

 

4. Section 5.2 Device Descriptor can include a parameter to specify 'Mobile'
or 'Fixed' device

 

5. Section 5.4 Device Capabilities can include Power Range of the device
too.

 

6. Section 5.9 "The SpectrumSpec element encapsulates the schedule of
available  spectrum for a regulatory domain". Should this also include a
specific location area?

As a regulatory domain may include a large location coverage, and reuse of
licensed spectrum in different locations. Is there a need of location area
coverage parameter in the device descriptor?

 

7. Section 5.17 - Error codes. As the PAWS protocol is over HTTPS, not using
the same(HTTP) 1xx, 2xx, 3xx status codes looks like a better option. Use of
another range or 4/2 digit codes will avoid confusion.

 

Best Regards,

Sajeev

 

From: paws [mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 3:10 AM
To: paws@ietf.org
Subject: [paws] wglc on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/

 

The editor posted the new draft, version -07.

I'd like to issue another  wg last call on the document. We need reviews and
feedback in order to be able to progress the document.

 

Please read through the draft and send any comments you may have to the list
in the next 2-3 weeks.

If you review the draft and have no comments, send a note to the list that
the draft is good as it is, we need these notes as much as we need the
actual comments. 

 

Without a minimum number of reviews the document won't make progress towards
publication. If you care about it, read it please.

 

Thanks, Gabor

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Please find few =
comments based
on my review of the new draft spec:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>1. In =
AVAIL_SPECTRUM_REQ all
parameters are shown optional. Does that mean an empty request is ok? =
As&nbsp;
'Device descriptor' is required in response, same should be the case in =
request
too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Also instead of =
'location' and
'Master Device location', it will be better to include 'location' and an
optional 'Slave Device location' in case request is on behave of slave, =
as
Master is the default request entity. Avail spectrum request can also =
include
an optional time range, so that database can send a filtered and useful =
set of
spectrum for the given time range, than the full =
set.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>2. In =
SPECTRUM_USE_NOTIFY
message 'spectra:list' parameter can include the time range which the =
device
intend to use the spectra, to improve QoS and avoid too many =
request/response
messages between master and database<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>3. Diagram in Section =
4.5, which
shows messages between master and device can use different message =
tokens than
the tokens used between master and database. Which will make it =
explicitly
clear that they are not the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>4. Section 5.2 Device =
Descriptor
can include a parameter to specify 'Mobile' or 'Fixed' =
device<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>5. Section 5.4 Device
Capabilities can include Power Range of the device =
too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>6. Section 5.9 =
&quot;The
SpectrumSpec element encapsulates the schedule of available&nbsp; =
spectrum for
a regulatory domain&quot;. Should this also include a specific location =
area?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As a regulatory =
domain may
include a large location coverage, and reuse of licensed spectrum in =
different
locations. Is there a need of location area coverage parameter in the =
device
descriptor?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>7. Section 5.17 - =
Error codes.
As the PAWS protocol is over HTTPS, not using the same(HTTP) 1xx, 2xx, =
3xx
status codes looks like a better option. Use of another range or 4/2 =
digit
codes will avoid confusion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Best =
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sajeev<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> paws
[mailto:paws-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 04, 2013 3:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> paws@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [paws] wglc on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>The editor posted the new draft, version =
-07.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>I'd like to issue another &nbsp;wg last call on =
the
document. We need reviews and feedback in order to be able to progress =
the
document.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Please read through the draft and send any =
comments you
may have to the list in the next 2-3 weeks.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>If you review the draft and have no comments, =
send a note
to the list that the draft is good as it is, we need these notes as much =
as we
need the actual comments. <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Without a minimum number of reviews the document
won&#8217;t make progress towards publication. If you care about it, =
read it
please.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks, Gabor<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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Sajeev,

Thanks for your comments. Answers inline.


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:54 PM, <sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi,
>
>
>
> Please find few comments based on my review of the new draft spec:
>
>
>
> 1. In AVAIL_SPECTRUM_REQ all parameters are shown optional. Does that mean
> an empty request is ok? As  'Device descriptor' is required in response,
> same should be the case in request too.
>

An empty request is not OK. Each field, independently, may be optional, but
the descriptions describe when they are required.
There are some dependencies between the parameters. For example, if
"requestType" is for getting generic operating parameters,
which may be allowed by ETSI, then the DeviceDescriptor is optional.

In light of this, perhaps Device Descriptor in the response should be
optional.


>  Also instead of 'location' and 'Master Device location', it will be
> better to include 'location' and an optional 'Slave Device location' in
> case request is on behave of slave, as Master is the default request entity.
>

This is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I believe it is more consistent to
have "location" and "deviceDesc" be associated with the
target device and "masterDeviceLocation" and "masterDeviceDesc" be
associated with the "master".


> Avail spectrum request can also include an optional time range, so that
> database can send a filtered and useful set of spectrum for the given time
> range, than the full set.
>

I'm not sure this is consistent with the rules. The Database may be
required to provide the availability for the next N hours.
I'd like to see other opinions on this point.


>
>
> 2. In SPECTRUM_USE_NOTIFY message 'spectra:list' parameter can include the
> time range which the device intend to use the spectra, to improve QoS and
> avoid too many request/response messages between master and database
>

 Although it might be a good idea to include the time range which the
device intends to use the spectra, I'm not sure how that improves QoS or
reduce the number of messages?


>
> 3. Diagram in Section 4.5, which shows messages between master and device
> can use different message tokens than the tokens used between master and
> database. Which will make it explicitly clear that they are not the same.
>

It is subtle, but the figure already uses different line styles for the two
cases.


>
>
> 4. Section 5.2 Device Descriptor can include a parameter to specify
> 'Mobile' or 'Fixed' device
>

The regulatory domain defines device types, which, typically, are
associated with mobile or fixed.


>
>
> 5. Section 5.4 Device Capabilities can include Power Range of the device
> too.
>

This might be a reasonable extension, but probably would not fit in this
first version of the protocol.
 - Currently, the Database is responsible for informing the device the
maximum allowed power levels, regardless
   of the power-range capabilities of the device.

 - Device Capabilities can be quite complex to express, and it would be
better to tackle this later.



>
> 6. Section 5.9 "The SpectrumSpec element encapsulates the schedule of
> available  spectrum for a regulatory domain". Should this also include a
> specific location area?
>
> As a regulatory domain may include a large location coverage, and reuse of
> licensed spectrum in different locations. Is there a need of location area
> coverage parameter in the device descriptor?
>

I believe this is already addressed:

In the current and proposed rules, the Device must request new spectrum if
it moves by more than X distance.
For Databases that support request by region, it is expected that the
Database returns spectrum that is allowed
anywhere within the region.


>
>
> 7. Section 5.17 - Error codes. As the PAWS protocol is over HTTPS, not
> using the same(HTTP) 1xx, 2xx, 3xx status codes looks like a better option.
> Use of another range or 4/2 digit codes will avoid confusion.
>

These define error codes at the protocol level.

When the binding is JSON-RPC over HTTPS, the HTTP error codes at the
transport level still apply.
(e.g., 3xx redirect, 5xx server errors, etc.)




>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Sajeev
>
>
>
>
>

--047d7b5d42f894876004edab7951
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Sajeev,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for your comments. Answe=
rs inline.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:54 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">








<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Hi,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Please find few commen=
ts based
on my review of the new draft spec:<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">1. In AVAIL_SPECTRUM_R=
EQ all
parameters are shown optional. Does that mean an empty request is ok? As=A0
&#39;Device descriptor&#39; is required in response, same should be the cas=
e in request
too.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>An empty reques=
t is not OK. Each field, independently, may be optional, but the descriptio=
ns describe when they are required.</div><div>There are some dependencies b=
etween the parameters. For example, if &quot;requestType&quot; is for getti=
ng generic operating parameters,</div>
<div>which may be allowed by ETSI, then the DeviceDescriptor is optional.</=
div><div><br></div><div>In light of this, perhaps Device Descriptor in the =
response should be optional.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Also instead of &#39;l=
ocation&#39; and
&#39;Master Device location&#39;, it will be better to include &#39;locatio=
n&#39; and an
optional &#39;Slave Device location&#39; in case request is on behave of sl=
ave, as
Master is the default request entity.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>This is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I believe it is m=
ore consistent to have &quot;location&quot; and &quot;deviceDesc&quot; be a=
ssociated with the</div>
<div>target device and &quot;masterDeviceLocation&quot; and &quot;masterDev=
iceDesc&quot; be associated with the &quot;master&quot;.</div><div>=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"> Avail spectrum request can also include
an optional time range, so that database can send a filtered and useful set=
 of
spectrum for the given time range, than the full set.</span></p></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not sure this is consistent with =
the rules. The Database may be required to provide the availability for the=
 next N hours.</div>
<div>I&#39;d like to see other opinions on this point.</div><div>=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"pu=
rple"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=A0<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">2. In SPECTRUM_USE_NOT=
IFY
message &#39;spectra:list&#39; parameter can include the time range which t=
he device
intend to use the spectra, to improve QoS and avoid too many request/respon=
se
messages between master and database</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>=A0Although it might be a good idea to include the time range wh=
ich the device intends to use the spectra, I&#39;m not sure how that improv=
es QoS or reduce the number of messages?</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"b=
lue" vlink=3D"purple"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">3. Diagram in Section =
4.5, which
shows messages between master and device can use different message tokens t=
han
the tokens used between master and database. Which will make it explicitly
clear that they are not the same.</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>It is subtle, but the figure already uses different line styles for=
 the two cases.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">4. Section 5.2 Device =
Descriptor
can include a parameter to specify &#39;Mobile&#39; or &#39;Fixed&#39; devi=
ce</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The regulatory domain d=
efines device types, which, typically, are associated with mobile or fixed.=
</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"bl=
ue" vlink=3D"purple"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">5. Section 5.4 Device
Capabilities can include Power Range of the device too.</span></p></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>This might be a reasonable extension, but pro=
bably would not fit in this first version of the protocol.</div><div>=A0- C=
urrently, the Database is responsible for informing the device the maximum =
allowed power levels, regardless</div>
<div>=A0 =A0of the power-range capabilities of the device.</div><div><br></=
div><div>=A0- Device Capabilities can be quite complex to express, and it w=
ould be better to tackle this later.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">6. Section 5.9 &quot;T=
he
SpectrumSpec element encapsulates the schedule of available=A0 spectrum for
a regulatory domain&quot;. Should this also include a specific location are=
a?<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">As a regulatory domain=
 may
include a large location coverage, and reuse of licensed spectrum in differ=
ent
locations. Is there a need of location area coverage parameter in the devic=
e
descriptor?</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I believe this=
 is already addressed:</div><div><br></div><div>In the current and proposed=
 rules, the Device must request new spectrum if it moves by more than X dis=
tance.</div>
<div>For Databases that support request by region, it is expected that the =
Database returns spectrum that is allowed</div><div>anywhere within the reg=
ion.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">7. Section 5.17 - Erro=
r codes.
As the PAWS protocol is over HTTPS, not using the same(HTTP) 1xx, 2xx, 3xx
status codes looks like a better option. Use of another range or 4/2 digit
codes will avoid confusion.</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>These define error codes at the protocol level.</div><div><br></div><div>=
When the binding is JSON-RPC over HTTPS, the HTTP error codes at the transp=
ort level still apply.</div>
<div>(e.g., 3xx redirect, 5xx server errors, etc.)</div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"=
 link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Best Regards,<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Sajeev<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<div>

<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><=
/div>

--047d7b5d42f894876004edab7951--

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From: sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com
To: "'Vincent Chen'" <vchen@google.com>
References: <1ECAFF543A2FED4EA2BEB6CACE08E476054072F5@008-AM1MPN1-007.mgdnok.nokia.com>	<001f01cef890$f059d040$d10d70c0$@org> <CABEV9RONzt4NvucvRQcJk6XQohF+Mn1jM7j9RXyEEw0dcj3VaQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [paws] wglc on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/
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Thanks Vincent for the clarifications. Few inline comments below.

 

Best Regards,

Sajeev Manikkoth 

 

From: Vincent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:34 AM
To: Sajeev Manikkoth
Cc: gabor.bajko@nokia.com; paws@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] wglc on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/

 

Sajeev,

 

Thanks for your comments. Answers inline.

 

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:54 PM, <sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

 

Please find few comments based on my review of the new draft spec:

 

1. In AVAIL_SPECTRUM_REQ all parameters are shown optional. Does that mean
an empty request is ok? As  'Device descriptor' is required in response,
same should be the case in request too.

 

An empty request is not OK. Each field, independently, may be optional, but
the descriptions describe when they are required.

There are some dependencies between the parameters. For example, if
"requestType" is for getting generic operating parameters,

which may be allowed by ETSI, then the DeviceDescriptor is optional.

[Sajeev>>] Is it going a bit complex this way with parameter dependencies?

 

In light of this, perhaps Device Descriptor in the response should be
optional.

 

Also instead of 'location' and 'Master Device location', it will be better
to include 'location' and an optional 'Slave Device location' in case
request is on behave of slave, as Master is the default request entity.

 

This is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I believe it is more consistent to
have "location" and "deviceDesc" be associated with the

target device and "masterDeviceLocation" and "masterDeviceDesc" be
associated with the "master".

 

Avail spectrum request can also include an optional time range, so that
database can send a filtered and useful set of spectrum for the given time
range, than the full set.

 

I'm not sure this is consistent with the rules. The Database may be required
to provide the availability for the next N hours.

I'd like to see other opinions on this point.

 

 

2. In SPECTRUM_USE_NOTIFY message 'spectra:list' parameter can include the
time range which the device intend to use the spectra, to improve QoS and
avoid too many request/response messages between master and database

 

 Although it might be a good idea to include the time range which the device
intends to use the spectra, I'm not sure how that improves QoS or reduce the
number of messages?

[Sajeev>>] Secondary user  service disruption due to primary or another user
using the frequency can be reduced if a time range is negotiated and
accepted. Also during the accepted time interval master need not further
query the db on the frequency/channel which negotiated.  

 

 

3. Diagram in Section 4.5, which shows messages between master and device
can use different message tokens than the tokens used between master and
database. Which will make it explicitly clear that they are not the same.

 

It is subtle, but the figure already uses different line styles for the two
cases.

 

 

4. Section 5.2 Device Descriptor can include a parameter to specify 'Mobile'
or 'Fixed' device

 

The regulatory domain defines device types, which, typically, are associated
with mobile or fixed.

[Sajeev>>] Yes, and in the request master can publish it through a parameter
was my point here. Perhaps this can help db to decide on the available
spectra for the device type.

 

 

5. Section 5.4 Device Capabilities can include Power Range of the device
too.

 

This might be a reasonable extension, but probably would not fit in this
first version of the protocol.

 - Currently, the Database is responsible for informing the device the
maximum allowed power levels, regardless

   of the power-range capabilities of the device.

 

 - Device Capabilities can be quite complex to express, and it would be
better to tackle this later.

 

 

 

6. Section 5.9 "The SpectrumSpec element encapsulates the schedule of
available  spectrum for a regulatory domain". Should this also include a
specific location area?

As a regulatory domain may include a large location coverage, and reuse of
licensed spectrum in different locations. Is there a need of location area
coverage parameter in the device descriptor?

 

I believe this is already addressed:

 

In the current and proposed rules, the Device must request new spectrum if
it moves by more than X distance.

For Databases that support request by region, it is expected that the
Database returns spectrum that is allowed

anywhere within the region.

 

 

7. Section 5.17 - Error codes. As the PAWS protocol is over HTTPS, not using
the same(HTTP) 1xx, 2xx, 3xx status codes looks like a better option. Use of
another range or 4/2 digit codes will avoid confusion.

 

These define error codes at the protocol level.

 

When the binding is JSON-RPC over HTTPS, the HTTP error codes at the
transport level still apply.

(e.g., 3xx redirect, 5xx server errors, etc.)

 

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Sajeev

 

 


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks Vincent for the clarifications. Few inline =
comments
below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sajeev Manikkoth <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Vincent =
Chen
[mailto:vchen@google.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sajeev Manikkoth<br>
<b>Cc:</b> gabor.bajko@nokia.com; paws@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] wglc on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Sajeev,<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for your comments. Answers =
inline.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:54 PM, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Please find few comments based on my review of =
the new
draft spec:</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>1. In AVAIL_SPECTRUM_REQ all parameters are =
shown
optional. Does that mean an empty request is ok? As&nbsp; 'Device =
descriptor'
is required in response, same should be the case in request =
too.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>An empty request is not OK. Each field, =
independently, may
be optional, but the descriptions describe when they are =
required.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>There are some dependencies between the parameters. =
For
example, if &quot;requestType&quot; is for getting generic operating
parameters,<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>which may be allowed by ETSI, then the =
DeviceDescriptor is
optional.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>[Sajeev&gt;&gt;] Is it going a bit complex this way with
parameter dependencies?</span></i></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>In light of this, perhaps Device Descriptor in the =
response
should be optional.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Also instead of 'location' and 'Master Device =
location',
it will be better to include 'location' and an optional 'Slave Device =
location'
in case request is on behave of slave, as Master is the default request =
entity.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>This is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I believe =
it is more
consistent to have &quot;location&quot; and &quot;deviceDesc&quot; be
associated with the<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>target device and &quot;masterDeviceLocation&quot; =
and
&quot;masterDeviceDesc&quot; be associated with the =
&quot;master&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Avail spectrum request can also include an =
optional time
range, so that database can send a filtered and useful set of spectrum =
for the
given time range, than the full set.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm not sure this is consistent with the rules. The =
Database
may be required to provide the availability for the next N =
hours.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I'd like to see other opinions on this =
point.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>2. In SPECTRUM_USE_NOTIFY message 'spectra:list'
parameter can include the time range which the device intend to use the
spectra, to improve QoS and avoid too many request/response messages =
between
master and database</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;Although it might be a good idea to include =
the time
range which the device intends to use the spectra, I'm not sure how that
improves QoS or reduce the number of messages?<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>[Sajeev&gt;&gt;] Secondary user &nbsp;service disruption =
due to
primary or another user using the frequency can be reduced if a time =
range is
negotiated and accepted. Also during the accepted time interval master =
need not
further query the db on the frequency/channel which negotiated. =
&nbsp;</span></i></b><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>3. Diagram in Section 4.5, which shows messages =
between
master and device can use different message tokens than the tokens used =
between
master and database. Which will make it explicitly clear that they are =
not the
same.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>It is subtle, but the figure already uses different =
line
styles for the two cases.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>4. Section 5.2 Device Descriptor can include a =
parameter
to specify 'Mobile' or 'Fixed' device</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>The regulatory domain defines device types, which,
typically, are associated with mobile or fixed.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>[Sajeev&gt;&gt;] Yes, and in the request master can =
publish it
through a parameter was my point here. Perhaps this can help db to =
decide on
the available spectra for the device type.</span></i></b><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>5. Section 5.4 Device Capabilities can include =
Power
Range of the device too.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>This might be a reasonable extension, but probably =
would not
fit in this first version of the protocol.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;- Currently, the Database is responsible for =
informing
the device the maximum allowed power levels, regardless<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;of the power-range capabilities of the =
device.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;- Device Capabilities can be quite complex to =
express,
and it would be better to tackle this later.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>6. Section 5.9 &quot;The SpectrumSpec element
encapsulates the schedule of available&nbsp; spectrum for a regulatory
domain&quot;. Should this also include a specific location =
area?</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As a regulatory domain may include a large =
location
coverage, and reuse of licensed spectrum in different locations. Is =
there a
need of location area coverage parameter in the device =
descriptor?</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I believe this is already addressed:<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>In the current and proposed rules, the Device must =
request
new spectrum if it moves by more than X distance.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>For Databases that support request by region, it is =
expected
that the Database returns spectrum that is allowed<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>anywhere within the region.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>7. Section 5.17 - Error codes. As the PAWS =
protocol is
over HTTPS, not using the same(HTTP) 1xx, 2xx, 3xx status codes looks =
like a
better option. Use of another range or 4/2 digit codes will avoid =
confusion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>These define error codes at the protocol =
level.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>When the binding is JSON-RPC over HTTPS, the HTTP =
error
codes at the transport level still apply.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>(e.g., 3xx redirect, 5xx server errors, =
etc.)<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Best Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sajeev</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
To: Sajeev Manikkoth <sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com>
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Sorry for the delayed response.


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:00 AM, <sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Thanks Vincent for the clarifications. Few inline comments below.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Sajeev Manikkoth
>
>
>
> *From:* Vincent Chen [mailto:vchen@google.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:34 AM
> *To:* Sajeev Manikkoth
> *Cc:* gabor.bajko@nokia.com; paws@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [paws] wglc on
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/
>
>
>
> Sajeev,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your comments. Answers inline.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:54 PM, <sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Please find few comments based on my review of the new draft spec:
>
>
>
> 1. In AVAIL_SPECTRUM_REQ all parameters are shown optional. Does that mean
> an empty request is ok? As  'Device descriptor' is required in response,
> same should be the case in request too.
>
>
>
> An empty request is not OK. Each field, independently, may be optional,
> but the descriptions describe when they are required.
>
> There are some dependencies between the parameters. For example, if
> "requestType" is for getting generic operating parameters,
>
> which may be allowed by ETSI, then the DeviceDescriptor is optional.
>
> *[Sajeev>>] Is it going a bit complex this way with parameter
> dependencies?*
>

*[vchen] I believe this is a trade-off between adding more fine-grained
"rpc methods" versus fewer methods with more optional parameters.*
*At the end of the day, the complexities are equivalent, if you want to
support the different use cases. *


>
>
> In light of this, perhaps Device Descriptor in the response should be
> optional.
>
>
>
>  Also instead of 'location' and 'Master Device location', it will be
> better to include 'location' and an optional 'Slave Device location' in
> case request is on behave of slave, as Master is the default request entity.
>
>
>
> This is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I believe it is more consistent to
> have "location" and "deviceDesc" be associated with the
>
> target device and "masterDeviceLocation" and "masterDeviceDesc" be
> associated with the "master".
>
>
>
>  Avail spectrum request can also include an optional time range, so that
> database can send a filtered and useful set of spectrum for the given time
> range, than the full set.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure this is consistent with the rules. The Database may be
> required to provide the availability for the next N hours.
>
> I'd like to see other opinions on this point.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2. In SPECTRUM_USE_NOTIFY message 'spectra:list' parameter can include the
> time range which the device intend to use the spectra, to improve QoS and
> avoid too many request/response messages between master and database
>
>
>
>  Although it might be a good idea to include the time range which the
> device intends to use the spectra, I'm not sure how that improves QoS or
> reduce the number of messages?
>
> *[Sajeev>>] Secondary user  service disruption due to primary or another
> user using the frequency can be reduced if a time range is negotiated and
> accepted. Also during the accepted time interval master need not further
> query the db on the frequency/channel which negotiated.  *
>

*[vchen] I believe this is already addressed. Certain classes of primary
users (wireless mics) already have the ability to reserve spectrum
(independent of PAWS), and the Database responses to secondary user must
take that into account. The database response is a schedule of available
spectrum that is valid for a specified duration, and the Master does not
have to contact the DB again during that duration.*

*To offer additional coordination between secondary users is out of scope,
but a Database may extend the protocol (as a value add feature).*


>
>
>
>
> 3. Diagram in Section 4.5, which shows messages between master and device
> can use different message tokens than the tokens used between master and
> database. Which will make it explicitly clear that they are not the same.
>
>
>
> It is subtle, but the figure already uses different line styles for the
> two cases.
>
>
>
>
>
> 4. Section 5.2 Device Descriptor can include a parameter to specify
> 'Mobile' or 'Fixed' device
>
>
>
> The regulatory domain defines device types, which, typically, are
> associated with mobile or fixed.
>
> *[Sajeev>>] Yes, and in the request master can publish it through a
> parameter was my point here. Perhaps this can help db to decide on the
> available spectra for the device type.*
>
>
>

*[vchen] The Database is already supposed to take device type into account.
The regulatory rules require it. That is, the rules prescribe what spectrum
is available and the power levels, based on device type.*


>
>
> 5. Section 5.4 Device Capabilities can include Power Range of the device
> too.
>
>
>
> This might be a reasonable extension, but probably would not fit in this
> first version of the protocol.
>
>  - Currently, the Database is responsible for informing the device the
> maximum allowed power levels, regardless
>
>    of the power-range capabilities of the device.
>
>
>
>  - Device Capabilities can be quite complex to express, and it would be
> better to tackle this later.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 6. Section 5.9 "The SpectrumSpec element encapsulates the schedule of
> available  spectrum for a regulatory domain". Should this also include a
> specific location area?
>
> As a regulatory domain may include a large location coverage, and reuse of
> licensed spectrum in different locations. Is there a need of location area
> coverage parameter in the device descriptor?
>
>
>
> I believe this is already addressed:
>
>
>
> In the current and proposed rules, the Device must request new spectrum if
> it moves by more than X distance.
>
> For Databases that support request by region, it is expected that the
> Database returns spectrum that is allowed
>
> anywhere within the region.
>
>
>
>
>
> 7. Section 5.17 - Error codes. As the PAWS protocol is over HTTPS, not
> using the same(HTTP) 1xx, 2xx, 3xx status codes looks like a better option.
> Use of another range or 4/2 digit codes will avoid confusion.
>
>
>
> These define error codes at the protocol level.
>
>
>
> When the binding is JSON-RPC over HTTPS, the HTTP error codes at the
> transport level still apply.
>
> (e.g., 3xx redirect, 5xx server errors, etc.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Sajeev
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
-vince

--047d7b33d17661a16d04edfb7dfa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Sorry for the delayed response.<div><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Dec 18, 2013 at 7:00 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sajeevman=
ikkoth@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">








<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thanks Vincent for the cl=
arifications. Few inline comments
below.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best Regards,<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sajeev Manikkoth <u></u><=
u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>

<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Vincent =
Chen
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:vchen@google.com" target=3D"_blank">vchen@google.=
com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sajeev Manikkoth<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:gabor.bajko@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">gabor=
.bajko@nokia.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:paws@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pa=
ws@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [paws] wglc on
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-paws-protocol/</a=
><u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

<div><div class=3D"im">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sajeev,<u></u><u></u></p>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your comments. Answers inline.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>

</div>

</div><div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>

<div><div class=3D"im">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:54 PM, &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sajeevmanikkoth@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Hi,</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Please find few commen=
ts based on my review of the new
draft spec:</span><u></u><u></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">1. In AVAIL_SPECTRUM_R=
EQ all parameters are shown
optional. Does that mean an empty request is ok? As=C2=A0 &#39;Device descr=
iptor&#39;
is required in response, same should be the case in request too.</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An empty request is not OK. Each field, independentl=
y, may
be optional, but the descriptions describe when they are required.<u></u><u=
></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are some dependencies between the parameters. =
For
example, if &quot;requestType&quot; is for getting generic operating
parameters,<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</div><div><div class=3D"im">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">which may be allowed by ETSI, then the DeviceDescrip=
tor is
optional.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Sajeev&gt;&g=
t;] Is it going a bit complex this way with
parameter dependencies?</span></i></b></p></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><br></div><div><b><font color=3D"#b45f06">[vchen] I be=
lieve this is a trade-off between adding more fine-grained &quot;rpc method=
s&quot; versus fewer methods with more optional parameters.</font></b></div=
>
<div><b><font color=3D"#b45f06">At the end of the day, the complexities are=
 equivalent, if you want to support the different use cases.=C2=A0</font></=
b></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div><div><div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>

</div><div class=3D"im">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In light of this, perhaps Device Descriptor in the r=
esponse
should be optional.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Also instead of &#39;l=
ocation&#39; and &#39;Master Device location&#39;,
it will be better to include &#39;location&#39; and an optional &#39;Slave =
Device location&#39;
in case request is on behave of slave, as Master is the default request ent=
ity.</span><u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is a matter of opinion, I suppose. I believe it=
 is more
consistent to have &quot;location&quot; and &quot;deviceDesc&quot; be
associated with the<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">target device and &quot;masterDeviceLocation&quot; a=
nd
&quot;masterDeviceDesc&quot; be associated with the &quot;master&quot;.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Avail spectrum request=
 can also include an optional time
range, so that database can send a filtered and useful set of spectrum for =
the
given time range, than the full set.</span><u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m not sure this is consistent with the rules. =
The Database
may be required to provide the availability for the next N hours.<u></u><u>=
</u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d like to see other opinions on this point.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">2. In SPECTRUM_USE_NOT=
IFY message &#39;spectra:list&#39;
parameter can include the time range which the device intend to use the
spectra, to improve QoS and avoid too many request/response messages betwee=
n
master and database</span><u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

</div><div><div class=3D"im">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0Although it might be a good idea to include th=
e time
range which the device intends to use the spectra, I&#39;m not sure how tha=
t
improves QoS or reduce the number of messages?<u></u><u></u></p>

</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Sajeev&gt;&g=
t;] Secondary user =C2=A0service disruption due to
primary or another user using the frequency can be reduced if a time range =
is
negotiated and accepted. Also during the accepted time interval master need=
 not
further query the db on the frequency/channel which negotiated. =C2=A0</spa=
n></i></b></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div><b><font color=3D"#b45f06">[vchen] I believe this is already addres=
sed. Certain classes of primary users (wireless mics) already have the abil=
ity to reserve spectrum (independent of PAWS), and the Database responses t=
o secondary user must take that into account. The database response is a sc=
hedule of available spectrum that is valid for a specified duration, and th=
e Master does not have to contact the DB again during that duration.</font>=
</b></div>
<div><b><font color=3D"#b45f06"><br></font></b></div><div><b><font color=3D=
"#b45f06">To offer additional coordination between secondary users is out o=
f scope, but a Database may extend the protocol (as a value add feature).</=
font></b></div>
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D=
"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>


</div><div class=3D"im">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">3. Diagram in Section =
4.5, which shows messages between
master and device can use different message tokens than the tokens used bet=
ween
master and database. Which will make it explicitly clear that they are not =
the
same.</span><u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is subtle, but the figure already uses different =
line
styles for the two cases.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">4. Section 5.2 Device =
Descriptor can include a parameter
to specify &#39;Mobile&#39; or &#39;Fixed&#39; device</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

</div><div><div class=3D"im">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The regulatory domain defines device types, which,
typically, are associated with mobile or fixed.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Sajeev&gt;&g=
t;] Yes, and in the request master can publish it
through a parameter was my point here. Perhaps this can help db to decide o=
n
the available spectra for the device type.</span></i></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>

</div><div class=3D"im">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div><b><font color=3D"#b45f06">[vchen] The Dat=
abase is already supposed to take device type into account. The regulatory =
rules require it. That is, the rules prescribe what spectrum is available a=
nd the power levels, based on device type.</font></b></div>
<div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" l=
ink=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div><div><div><div class=3D"im"><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal">
<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">5. Section 5.4 Device =
Capabilities can include Power
Range of the device too.</span><u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This might be a reasonable extension, but probably w=
ould not
fit in this first version of the protocol.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0- Currently, the Database is responsible for i=
nforming
the device the maximum allowed power levels, regardless<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the power-range capabilities of the =
device.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0- Device Capabilities can be quite complex to =
express,
and it would be better to tackle this later.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">6. Section 5.9 &quot;T=
he SpectrumSpec element
encapsulates the schedule of available=C2=A0 spectrum for a regulatory
domain&quot;. Should this also include a specific location area?</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">As a regulatory domain=
 may include a large location
coverage, and reuse of licensed spectrum in different locations. Is there a
need of location area coverage parameter in the device descriptor?</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe this is already addressed:<u></u><u></u></=
p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the current and proposed rules, the Device must r=
equest
new spectrum if it moves by more than X distance.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For Databases that support request by region, it is =
expected
that the Database returns spectrum that is allowed<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">anywhere within the region.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">7. Section 5.17 - Erro=
r codes. As the PAWS protocol is
over HTTPS, not using the same(HTTP) 1xx, 2xx, 3xx status codes looks like =
a
better option. Use of another range or 4/2 digit codes will avoid confusion=
.</span><u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These define error codes at the protocol level.<u></=
u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">When the binding is JSON-RPC over HTTPS, the HTTP er=
ror
codes at the transport level still apply.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(e.g., 3xx redirect, 5xx server errors, etc.)<u></u>=
<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Best Regards,</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Sajeev</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>

<div>

<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div></div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>


</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>-vince
</div></div></div></div>

--047d7b33d17661a16d04edfb7dfa--

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Message-ID: <CABEV9RPSWiZEfX8vpyKXaV0Dfa3RUyiJ_99f4bAgUuF-Y1Uj6Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
To: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>
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Subject: [paws] Summary: Comments on draft-07
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All,

I believe the open issues for which there is support for change are:

 1. Remove TBDs, except for the mailing-list name for PAWS IANA reviews

   - Ruleset name for ETSI draft, e.g., "ETSI-EN-301-598-1.0.0-draft"
   - Hyperlink to the ETSI draft

 2. vCard
   - Move regulatory requirements to the Ruleset sections, such as which
fields
     are required.
   - "fn" should be "formatted name", not "full name"
   - Add an example for representing an organization

 3. Shortened names
   - If accepted, would shorten just the names of the fields in the
inner-most loop of the
     spectrum response:

     freqHz -> hz
     powerDbmPerBw -> dbm

     It does not seem that other fields appear often enough to have
significant impact

Should I go ahead and make these changes and try last-call again?

-- 
-vince

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<div dir=3D"ltr">All,<div><br></div><div>I believe the open issues for whic=
h there is support for change are:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A01. Remove=
 TBDs, except for the mailing-list name for PAWS IANA reviews</div><div><br=
></div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Ruleset name for ETSI draft, e.g., &quot;ETSI-EN-301-59=
8-1.0.0-draft&quot;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hyperlink to the ETSI draft</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A02. vCard</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Move regulat=
ory requirements to the Ruleset sections, such as which fields</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are required.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- &quot;fn&qu=
ot; should be &quot;formatted name&quot;, not &quot;full name&quot;</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Add an example for representing an organization</div><div=
><br></div><div>=C2=A03. Shortened names</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- If accepted, would shorten just the names of the fields=
 in the inner-most loop of the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spectrum respo=
nse:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0freqHz -&gt; hz</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0powerDbmPerBw -&gt; dbm</div><div>
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It does not seem that other fields appea=
r often enough to have significant impact</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<br=
 clear=3D"all"><div>Should I go ahead and make these changes and try last-c=
all again?</div><div><br></div>
-- <br>-vince
</div></div>

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