From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 14:30:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B6C28C290; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:30:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1168728C28F for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:30:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GeQ73idGg9J3 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C122E28C28E for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18F5198E82; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:30:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id A636D198E5D; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:30:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.246.38] (wvpn038.vpn.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.246.38]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48AE1A0680; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 23:30:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48728ABD.5000408@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:29:33 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pcn X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Subject: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi, we recently submitted a mechanism that converts PCN markings obtained based on an admissible rate (PCN lower rate) to equivalent PCN markings based on a supportable rate (PCN upper rate). This mechanism might be useful to implement marked flow termination with single marking, i.e. when only excess marked packets based on the admissible rate are available but excess marked packets based on the supportable rate are required. The mechanism is described in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-marking-converter-00.txt Early simulation results show that the mechanism work somehow, but it has its limitations especially when many small ingress-egress-aggregates share a single link which is a realistic case. A summary of these results is given in Section 8 of http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-performance-03.txt Regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 15:13:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DF728C2ED; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA213A697C for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SdKa3c9kH56c for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77EA3A69D6 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 15:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1E6198E8A; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 00:13:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB74198E87; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 00:13:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.246.38] (wvpn038.vpn.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.246.38]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2E5198E82; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 00:13:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <487294DE.2060003@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:12:46 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pcn X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Subject: [PCN] PSDM and e2e PCN encoding X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I just submitted two drafts suggesting encodings for PCN that were discussed after the Philadelphia meeting. The documents provide a base to discuss them in Dublin. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-psdm-encoding-00.txt proposes an encoding option for packet-specific dual marking (PSDM). It uses only a single DSCP (Voice-Admit DSCP) and supports both excess and exhaustive marking in a single PCN domain, but packets are either subject to excess or exhaustive marking, not to both. This kind of encoding is useful, e.g., to support probe-based admission control based on exhaustive marking and flow termination based on excess marking, but also to others (see intro). The ECN field of the Voice-Admit DSCP is interpreted as PCN codepoint only within PCN domains and outside PCN domains it is subject to standard ECN semantics. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-e2e-encoding-00.txt requests alternate ECN semantics for the ECN field of the Voice-Admit DSCP. That allows its use for PCN encoding not only in PCN domains but also in the general Internet. With this extension it is possible to support end-to-end PCN as described in Section 4 of http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf However, this extension excludes the use of ECN to PCN flows. The assumed PCN encoding is the same as in the draft above, but this could also be applied to other PCN encodings with only a single DSCP. This draft is probably not in-charter as it looks forward, but documents potential extensions that may be required in the future. Comments are welcome for both drafts. Regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 21:08:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CED63A6976; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:08:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC7E3A6989 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:08:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NDvgUjpz9qFV for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC303A691C for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 21:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpe-071-077-051-004.nc.res.rr.com ([71.77.51.4]) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KGQyo-00062k-0I; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:08:34 -0400 From: Steven Blake To: pcn Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 00:08:39 -0400 Message-Id: <1215576519.12416.4.camel@tachyon> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Subject: [PCN] IETF 73 agenda X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org It's time to put together the meeting agenda for Dublin. Please send agenda requests to the chairs. We are scheduled for only one session, so obviously we will have to focus on advancing documents to meet our milestones (which we continue to slip!). Regards, // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 23:03:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28C13A68A1; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:03:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66BD3A689D for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.350, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2mdDsXSs3aP for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B8E3A68A1 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpe-071-077-051-004.nc.res.rr.com ([71.77.51.4]) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KGoBN-00016L-D8 for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:55:05 -0400 From: Steven Blake To: pcn In-Reply-To: References: <20080613164431.3D5703A6945@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:55:11 -0400 Message-Id: <1215665711.18473.11.camel@tachyon> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp" X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 2008-06-16 at 10:42 +0300, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, PCN WG, > > The ITU-T has sent you the following liaison statement on PCN (but > only sent it to my email address, which is why I'm forwarding it.) > > Please review the documents attached to the LS and discuss if you want > to send a response. I've taken a quick look, and it seems that the ITU- > T is making some assumptions about how some of the components of the > PCN architecture work on a technical level that the WG hasn't come to > consensus on. > > Lars > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "ext Arshey Odedra(ITU-T SG 11)" > > Date: June 13, 2008 19:44:31 GMT+03:00 > > To: lars.eggert@nokia.com > > Subject: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp" > > Reply-To: tsbsg11@itu.int > > > > > > Title: LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp > > Submission Date: 2008-06-13 > > URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=461 > > Please reply by 2008-09-01 > > > > From: Arshey Odedra(ITU-T SG 11) > > To: IETF Transport Area Directors, PCN Working Group Chairs(lars.eggert@nokia.com > > ) > > Cc: > > Reponse Contact: > > Technical Contact: > > Purpose: For comment > > Body: Liaison Statement from ITU-T SG1 Q5/11 Rapporteur Meeting (May > > 2008). > > Attachment(s): > > LS on Drfat Recommendation Q.PCNApp (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file567.doc > > ) > > Draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp, Enhancement of resource and > > admission control protocols to use pre-congestion notification > > (PCN), out of the May 2008 meeting (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file568.doc As Lars requested, please review the liaison statements and send comments to the list. Regards, // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 02:28:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA32D3A6984; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BEAC3A6984 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.958 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.958 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1P62dvzQ+hd for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp127.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp127.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.53.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1AA383A67EE for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17242 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2008 09:28:51 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wENFVVN844R/AKkJtEdFP0geMK4tTlJLo5OdSIfTQUhtSGz2BbsrTqvwsMPyp1kHB+lVXaQz88NnkrCnF6rh8sdgY19fhmiwiVttpqPsm3GRLudlEq1BJ69tjEP0Ev7azQRbuGMfY6iWheo7zTU3fuG884LRX2dwyATe3mqABbw= ; Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.43.1.84?) (tom.taylor@rogers.com@86.47.129.77 with plain) by smtp127.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2008 09:28:51 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: gyzZVw8VM1knzSMVAPIJrmdkZemz9QOFxdBq37SaZCxovbUUzYGq_u9yFdSLEr9EDA-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <4875D652.7000400@rogers.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:28:50 -0400 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pcn References: <20080613164431.3D5703A6945@core3.amsl.com> <1215665711.18473.11.camel@tachyon> In-Reply-To: <1215665711.18473.11.camel@tachyon> Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp" X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Basically we are trying to specify how to apply PCN in an environment where central elements provide subscriber-specific policy. I'll be interested to talk to Lars about where he sees us getting ahead of the WG. As you'll see from the "Contributor's Notes" in the ITU-T draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp, we've tried to be cautious. Steven Blake wrote: > On Mon, 2008-06-16 at 10:42 +0300, Lars Eggert wrote: > >> Hi, PCN WG, >> >> The ITU-T has sent you the following liaison statement on PCN (but >> only sent it to my email address, which is why I'm forwarding it.) >> >> Please review the documents attached to the LS and discuss if you want >> to send a response. I've taken a quick look, and it seems that the ITU- >> T is making some assumptions about how some of the components of the >> PCN architecture work on a technical level that the WG hasn't come to >> consensus on. >> >> Lars >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: "ext Arshey Odedra(ITU-T SG 11)" >>> Date: June 13, 2008 19:44:31 GMT+03:00 >>> To: lars.eggert@nokia.com >>> Subject: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp" >>> Reply-To: tsbsg11@itu.int >>> >>> >>> Title: LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp >>> Submission Date: 2008-06-13 >>> URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=461 >>> Please reply by 2008-09-01 >>> >>> From: Arshey Odedra(ITU-T SG 11) >>> To: IETF Transport Area Directors, PCN Working Group Chairs(lars.eggert@nokia.com >>> ) >>> Cc: >>> Reponse Contact: >>> Technical Contact: >>> Purpose: For comment >>> Body: Liaison Statement from ITU-T SG1 Q5/11 Rapporteur Meeting (May >>> 2008). >>> Attachment(s): >>> LS on Drfat Recommendation Q.PCNApp (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file567.doc >>> ) >>> Draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp, Enhancement of resource and >>> admission control protocols to use pre-congestion notification >>> (PCN), out of the May 2008 meeting (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file568.doc > > > As Lars requested, please review the liaison statements and send comments to the list. > > > Regards, > > // Steve > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 08:55:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0114F3A69CA; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93E53A69CA for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:55:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id prhtAxCcrfJ2 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90AA43A69B6 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.64]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:55:42 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:55:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1215665711.18473.11.camel@tachyon> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp" Thread-Index: AcjiVSg9cejKSUgzRniLEdKKx5BFNQAT8rCw From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2008 15:55:42.0032 (UTC) FILETIME=[67E0B500:01C8E2A5] Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp" X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Could I request slots to present the following: Draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding 10 mins to present + 10 mins discussion to get adopted as WG item + progress to WGLC Toby Moncaster Draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding 10 mins to present Toby Moncaster Draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour 15 mins to present Phil Eardley Toby Moncaster ____________________________________________________________________ Toby Moncaster, Networks Research Centre, BT B54/70 Adastral Park, Ipswich, IP53RE, UK. +44 1473 648734 > -----Original Message----- > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Steven Blake > Sent: 10 July 2008 05:55 > To: pcn > Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement,"LS on draft > Recommendation Q.PCNApp" > > On Mon, 2008-06-16 at 10:42 +0300, Lars Eggert wrote: > > > Hi, PCN WG, > > > > The ITU-T has sent you the following liaison statement on PCN (but > > only sent it to my email address, which is why I'm forwarding it.) > > > > Please review the documents attached to the LS and discuss > if you want > > to send a response. I've taken a quick look, and it seems > that the ITU- > > T is making some assumptions about how some of the > components of the > > PCN architecture work on a technical level that the WG > hasn't come to > > consensus on. > > > > Lars > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: "ext Arshey Odedra(ITU-T SG 11)" > > > Date: June 13, 2008 19:44:31 GMT+03:00 > > > To: lars.eggert@nokia.com > > > Subject: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft > Recommendation Q.PCNApp" > > > Reply-To: tsbsg11@itu.int > > > > > > > > > Title: LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp > > > Submission Date: 2008-06-13 > > > URL of the IETF Web page: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=461 > > > Please reply by 2008-09-01 > > > > > > From: Arshey Odedra(ITU-T SG 11) > > > To: IETF Transport Area Directors, PCN Working Group > Chairs(lars.eggert@nokia.com > > > ) > > > Cc: > > > Reponse Contact: > > > Technical Contact: > > > Purpose: For comment > > > Body: Liaison Statement from ITU-T SG1 Q5/11 Rapporteur > Meeting (May > > > 2008). > > > Attachment(s): > > > LS on Drfat Recommendation Q.PCNApp > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file567.doc > > > ) > > > Draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp, Enhancement of resource and > > > admission control protocols to use pre-congestion notification > > > (PCN), out of the May 2008 meeting > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file568.doc > > > As Lars requested, please review the liaison statements and > send comments to the list. > > > Regards, > > // Steve > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 08:56:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BD23A67AD; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:56:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 042A43A63EC for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:56:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_16=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lGc1CzWDSZD5 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5DA23A67AD for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.64]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:56:23 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:56:28 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp" Thread-Index: AcjiVSg9cejKSUgzRniLEdKKx5BFNQAT8rCwAAAf6IA= From: To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2008 15:56:23.0365 (UTC) FILETIME=[80839F50:01C8E2A5] Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp" X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Apologies, this was meant to be in reply to the email concerning agenda requests Toby > -----Original Message----- > From: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R > Sent: 10 July 2008 16:56 > To: 'Steven Blake'; pcn > Subject: RE: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement,"LS on draft > Recommendation Q.PCNApp" > > Could I request slots to present the following: > > Draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding > 10 mins to present + 10 mins discussion to get adopted as WG > item + progress to WGLC > Toby Moncaster > > Draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding > 10 mins to present > Toby Moncaster > > Draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour > 15 mins to present > Phil Eardley > > Toby Moncaster > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Toby Moncaster, Networks Research Centre, BT > B54/70 Adastral Park, Ipswich, IP53RE, UK. +44 1473 648734 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Steven Blake > > Sent: 10 July 2008 05:55 > > To: pcn > > Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Liaison Statement,"LS on draft > > Recommendation Q.PCNApp" > > > > On Mon, 2008-06-16 at 10:42 +0300, Lars Eggert wrote: > > > > > Hi, PCN WG, > > > > > > The ITU-T has sent you the following liaison statement on > PCN (but > > > only sent it to my email address, which is why I'm forwarding it.) > > > > > > Please review the documents attached to the LS and discuss > > if you want > > > to send a response. I've taken a quick look, and it seems > > that the ITU- > > > T is making some assumptions about how some of the > > components of the > > > PCN architecture work on a technical level that the WG > > hasn't come to > > > consensus on. > > > > > > Lars > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > > > From: "ext Arshey Odedra(ITU-T SG 11)" > > > > Date: June 13, 2008 19:44:31 GMT+03:00 > > > > To: lars.eggert@nokia.com > > > > Subject: New Liaison Statement, "LS on draft > > Recommendation Q.PCNApp" > > > > Reply-To: tsbsg11@itu.int > > > > > > > > > > > > Title: LS on draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp > > > > Submission Date: 2008-06-13 > > > > URL of the IETF Web page: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaison_detail.cgi?detail_id=461 > > > > Please reply by 2008-09-01 > > > > > > > > From: Arshey Odedra(ITU-T SG 11) > > > > To: IETF Transport Area Directors, PCN Working Group > > Chairs(lars.eggert@nokia.com > > > > ) > > > > Cc: > > > > Reponse Contact: > > > > Technical Contact: > > > > Purpose: For comment > > > > Body: Liaison Statement from ITU-T SG1 Q5/11 Rapporteur > > Meeting (May > > > > 2008). > > > > Attachment(s): > > > > LS on Drfat Recommendation Q.PCNApp > > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file567.doc > > > > ) > > > > Draft Recommendation Q.PCNApp, Enhancement of resource and > > > > admission control protocols to use pre-congestion notification > > > > (PCN), out of the May 2008 meeting > > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/documents/LIAISON/file568.doc > > > > > > As Lars requested, please review the liaison statements and > > send comments to the list. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > // Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PCN mailing list > > PCN@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 09:05:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B49A3A6891; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:05:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85B33A6891 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UVejEMlL1wdT for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33B23A6828 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.64]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:05:51 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:05:55 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1B6169C658325341A3B8066E23919E1C4C169E@S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-01 Thread-Index: AcjVU+L7n++xsBDrTkmcXM6Y5VRVeAAABWaAACWf+ZAABIQssAAogadAAABUtYAAALA+sAAAddqwAwBMaGA= From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2008 16:05:51.0026 (UTC) FILETIME=[D2DDD120:01C8E2A6] Subject: [PCN] draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org We are rapidly slipping further and further behind our charter milestones. It is my belief that the baseline encoding document is now ready to be adopted as a WG item and should only need minimal work to advance it towards WGLC. www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-01.tx t I am going to potentially submit a 02 version by Monday to address any issues that still need looking at. However this is by way of being a formal request to the chairs to consider asking the WG if this document can be adopted as a WG item before Dublin. It is my belief that once we have the baseline encoding agreed and en route to RFC then the architecture draft and marking behaviour drafts should also start making significant progress. The only caveat connected to this current document is whether or not we will manage to get shared use of the new voice-admit DSCP or whether we will have to go through the long and painful process of trying to get our own standards track DSCP. Oh, and as I warned at last IETF, I will probably have to step back from active involvement in this WG after Dublin due to other work commitments... Toby Moncaster ____________________________________________________________________ Toby Moncaster, Networks Research Centre, BT B54/70 Adastral Park, Ipswich, IP53RE, UK. +44 1473 648734 _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 06:43:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503873A67D9; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6178E3A67D9 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:43:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J6g5ij3XUuzl for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5423A659B for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.64]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:43:21 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:43:26 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 Thread-Index: AcjjXAPPhC4LM8shS0+3iXNuDsYpmAAABA6w From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jul 2008 13:43:21.0825 (UTC) FILETIME=[158F0510:01C8E35C] Subject: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification for draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org -----Original Message----- From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org] Sent: 11 July 2008 14:43 To: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R Cc: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,CXR9 R; menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de Subject: New Version Notification for draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 A new version of I-D, draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.txt has been successfuly submitted by T Moncaster and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding Revision: 02 Title: Baseline Encoding and Transport of Pre-Congestion Information Creation_date: 2008-07-11 WG ID: Independent Submission Number_of_pages: 13 Abstract: Pre-congestion notification (PCN) provides information to support admission control and flow termination in order to protect the Quality of Service of inelastic flows. It does this by marking packets when traffic load on a link is approaching or has exceeded a threshold below the physical link rate. This document specifies how such marks are to be encoded into the IP header. The baseline encoding described here provides for only two PCN encoding states. Other documents describe extended encoding schemes that allow for three encoding states. Status This memo is posted as an Internet-Draft with an intent to eventually progress to standards track. The IETF Secretariat. _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 14 15:00:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF2628C449; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:00:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@ietf.org Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id D003428C33D; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:00:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20080714220001.D003428C33D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF. Title : Pre-Congestion Notification Architecture Author(s) : P. Eardley Filename : draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt Pages : 52 Date : 2008-07-14 The purpose of this document is to describe a general architecture for flow admission and termination based on pre-congestion information in order to protect the quality of service of established inelastic flows within a single DiffServ domain.Status A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-07-14144853.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --NextPart-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 14 16:50:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1E53A6AF6; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:50:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25F23A6A41 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:50:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MK4jXWRL63pe for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.239]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED32E3A6AD6 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i29so2370362wxd.31 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:50:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=oq85XQyqSrxashaiZ3LndyepmuYk+qVJ+YLxay4/pfA=; b=Q5u+phYh8tuq0D6HLNxnWup4eea+mxuiY4sDifiJQwPpa6WFzUEuH51/BR/gXJGBe8 thEUIUo1AO6lIAFdWz/VWimTInHoUkhG88hyiWcvpflBo2FOcGl+ilAbCPp+J46DSId2 MEk3HGbQqX9W2MYFJpyENGKBInmCXqL8fR+zc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=G03xgj1WWYLJcAZpkdMNt2z9kV5sbv3/oFoCO/WBigDBao0BpwIcpWRX6QdnU1Man7 nykj/1cJLjv2dmGqULr1hXxtRBmF4H6k3UTTj7wwxlS/unGLdAxuoQ1HkUjtQrWdbmsl MZFVN9bFQldUrU/I10TEBfhmgWwM7/TId0Nf4= Received: by 10.70.46.1 with SMTP id t1mr19202063wxt.59.1216079441931; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.2 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:50:41 -0400 From: "Anurag Bhargava" To: pcn@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [PCN] draft-westberg-pcn-load-control-04.txt has been uploaded X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1808812920==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org --===============1808812920== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14597_22907562.1216079441925" ------=_Part_14597_22907562.1216079441925 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello All, A new version of the Load Control draft has been posted on the IETF website. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-westberg-pcn-load-control-04.txt Thanks Anurag ------=_Part_14597_22907562.1216079441925 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello All,

 A new version of the Load Control draft has been posted on the IETF website.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-westberg-pcn-load-control-04.txt

Thanks
Anurag

------=_Part_14597_22907562.1216079441925-- --===============1808812920== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============1808812920==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 00:30:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE43428C303; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:30:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B65128C303 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:30:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v82qGDoESnGL for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.smtp.bt.com (smtp4.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.151]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4570328C2FA for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp4.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:31:09 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:31:09 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8A8@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <20080714220001.D003428C33D@core3.amsl.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt Thread-Index: Acjl/W4FEg8NLW6wSQCob5XajFsCSgATjrFg From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2008 07:31:09.0791 (UTC) FILETIME=[C0480EF0:01C8E64C] Subject: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org I updated the Architecture draft. There are no major changes, but several more minor ones. These mostly reflect the consensus call about PCN-marking (as reflected in [I-D.eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour]), and the current decisions about encoding (as reflected in [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding] and [I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding]). I also did some slight re-structuring and editing to try and improve the clarity, especially of the introductory material and the High level architecture (where I also added a sub-section on backwards compatibility with respect to [RFC4774]). I also took account of all the comments received on the -03 version (thanks for them) Comments welcome! - thanks, phil { -----Original Message----- { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { Internet-Drafts@ietf.org { Sent: 14 July 2008 23:00 { To: i-d-announce@ietf.org { Cc: pcn@ietf.org { Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { { A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts { directories. { This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion { Notification Working Group of the IETF. { { { Title : Pre-Congestion Notification Architecture { Author(s) : P. Eardley { Filename : draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { Pages : 52 { Date : 2008-07-14 { { The purpose of this document is to describe a general architecture { for flow admission and termination based on pre-congestion { information in order to protect the quality of service of established { inelastic flows within a single DiffServ domain.Status { { A URL for this Internet-Draft is: { http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { { Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: { ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ { { Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader { implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the { Internet-Draft. _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 02:01:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B50F3A6AFF; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035C73A6B06 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:01:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id srkPYoD9fFER for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC723A6AFF for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:02:10 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:02:09 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8AD@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8A8@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt Thread-Index: Acjl/W4FEg8NLW6wSQCob5XajFsCSgATjrFgAACiYFA= From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2008 09:02:10.0014 (UTC) FILETIME=[76D3F7E0:01C8E659] Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org I spotted a couple of small corrections needed: In S6.2, Flow termination Exactly how the flow termination decision is made will be defined separately in informational documents. At a high level several approaches are proposed: ... o Another approach monitors PCN-packets and terminates any PCN-flow with an excess-traffic-marked packet. Compared with the approaches above, PCN-marking needs to be done at a reduced rate (every "s" bytes of excess traffic) otherwise far too much traffic would be terminated. This bullet needs to be changed, as it's inconsistent with the consensus decisions about marking algorithm. The equivalent approach can be achieved by randomly selecting some fraction of the marked packets for termination (as in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-menth-pcn-emft-00.txt) In S2 Terminology The last sentence of both PCN-threshold-rate & PCN-excess-rate definitions needs to be deleted (they don't apply in the single marking case). In addition I think it would be helpful to add a couple of pics to illustrate what PCN-threshold-rate & PCN-excess-rate mean in terms of when admission and termination are done. Similar to Fig 1 in http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08 -PCN-Comparison.pdf - one for the case with 3 encoding states, and one for single marking. phil { -----Original Message----- { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { philip.eardley@bt.com { Sent: 15 July 2008 08:31 { To: pcn@ietf.org { Subject: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { { I updated the Architecture draft. { { There are no major changes, but several more minor ones. These mostly { reflect the consensus call about PCN-marking (as reflected in { [I-D.eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour]), and the current decisions about { encoding (as reflected in [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding] and { [I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding]). I also did some slight { re-structuring and editing to try and improve the clarity, especially of { the introductory material and the High level architecture (where I also { added a sub-section on backwards compatibility with respect to { [RFC4774]). I also took account of all the comments received on the -03 { version (thanks for them) { { Comments welcome! - thanks, { phil { { { -----Original Message----- { { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { { Internet-Drafts@ietf.org { { Sent: 14 July 2008 23:00 { { To: i-d-announce@ietf.org { { Cc: pcn@ietf.org { { Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { { { { A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts { { directories. { { This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion { { Notification Working Group of the IETF. { { { { { { Title : Pre-Congestion Notification Architecture { { Author(s) : P. Eardley { { Filename : draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { { Pages : 52 { { Date : 2008-07-14 { { { { The purpose of this document is to describe a general architecture { { for flow admission and termination based on pre-congestion { { information in order to protect the quality of service of established { { inelastic flows within a single DiffServ domain.Status { { { { A URL for this Internet-Draft is: { { http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { { { { Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: { { ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ { { { { Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader { { implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the { { Internet-Draft. { _______________________________________________ { PCN mailing list { PCN@ietf.org { https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 02:29:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9943A692B; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:29:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058CD3A692B for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:29:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AK1mpwBXVuFD for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFE03A67F4 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:30:12 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:30:11 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8AE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 Thread-Index: AcjjXAPPhC4LM8shS0+3iXNuDsYpmAAABA6wAL9yqcA= From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2008 09:30:12.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[61AF13F0:01C8E65D] Subject: Re: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Toby, It looks good to me. Yes, I support it as wg doc. Some comments: S4.3: Clarify that the context of the first bullet (PCN-ingress-node action if pkt arrives with CE or ECT) is for packets that use the same DSCP as PCN-traffic S5: "that traffic" -> "traffic that" "ECN marked traffic is blocked from entering the PCN-domain directly" 2 things. First, the context is non-PCN-traffic using the same DSCP as PCN-traffic. Second, ECN capable rather than ECN marked (or whatever term includes ECT as well as CE) 4th bullet, All traffic -> All PCN-traffic I think we need some minor work between the Tunnelling sections in the encoding drafts, architecture draft & bob's Layered Encapsulation of Congestion Notification, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/briscoe-tsvwg-ecn-tunnel-01.txt . i don't think there's any real content that needs changing, just some slight clarification. as i understand it, the encoding drafts summarises how the behaviour of existing tunnelling encapsulators/decapsulators has constrained the choice of encoding; the architecture draft summarises what the 'right' behaviour for tunnelling encapsulators/decapsulators is in a PCN-domain; and bob's draft adds a whole lot of detailed explanation and history etc. { -----Original Message----- { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { toby.moncaster@bt.com { Sent: 11 July 2008 14:43 { To: pcn@ietf.org { Subject: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn- { baseline-encoding-02 { { { { -----Original Message----- { From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org] { Sent: 11 July 2008 14:43 { To: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R { Cc: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,CXR9 R; menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de { Subject: New Version Notification for { draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 { { { A new version of I-D, draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.txt has { been successfuly submitted by T Moncaster and posted to the IETF { repository. { { Filename: draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding { Revision: 02 { Title: Baseline Encoding and Transport of Pre-Congestion { Information { Creation_date: 2008-07-11 { WG ID: Independent Submission { Number_of_pages: 13 { { Abstract: { Pre-congestion notification (PCN) provides information to support { admission control and flow termination in order to protect the { Quality of Service of inelastic flows. It does this by marking { packets when traffic load on a link is approaching or has exceeded a { threshold below the physical link rate. This document specifies how { such marks are to be encoded into the IP header. The baseline { encoding described here provides for only two PCN encoding states. { Other documents describe extended encoding schemes that allow for { three encoding states. { { Status { { This memo is posted as an Internet-Draft with an intent to eventually { progress to standards track. { { { { { The IETF Secretariat. { { { _______________________________________________ { PCN mailing list { PCN@ietf.org { https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 02:54:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998D73A693E; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:54:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8D63A6889 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A9z8b73yJ3ja for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8103A68DC for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:55:17 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:55:16 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8AF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 Thread-Index: AcjVU+bNZiMWYhQ2TvupjcXli73s+wAAFr3QBEJZPpA= From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2008 09:55:17.0508 (UTC) FILETIME=[E2B8F440:01C8E660] Subject: Re: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Toby, Michael, bob, It looks good to me. S3: terminology PCN-flow - a flow covered by a reservation but which hasn't signalled that it requires end-to-end ECN support. I think the concept of PCN-flows should include PCN-enabled-ECN-flows. I'm not sure about "reservation", surely something like "using the PCN mechanisms". Or protected by them. 6.1: In addition all packets should have their DSCP reset to the appropriate DSCP for the next hop. If the next hop is not another PCN region this will not be a PCN enabled DSCP, and by default will be the best-efforts DSCP. Alterntively higher layer signalling mechanisms may allow the DSCP that packets entered the PCN-domain with to be re-instated. All packets -> all PCN-packets Should have -> SHOULD have (or possibly MUST have) Last sentence - this is a likely example of what the higher layer signalling could do, however the domain on the far side of the pcn-domain might use a different DSCP from the domain on the near side. S7.1: Transports wishing to use both a reservation and end-to-end ECN I think "PCN" would better than "reservation" S7.2.0: indicate that the context is PCN-traffic 7.2.1: downgrading is here a MAY, whereas in the baseline-encoding-02 it was an "SHOULD... or ..." rather than "lower (non-PCN) service class" it would be better to say lower priority (non-PCN) behaviour aggregate Typos: S4: an additional PCN enabled DiffServ codepoints. -> codepoint S5: ., -> . S6.1: Alterntively -> Alternatively phil { -----Original Message----- { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { toby.moncaster@bt.com { Sent: 23 June 2008 18:15 { To: pcn@ietf.org { Subject: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-3- { state-encoding-00 { { { As promised in earlier emails here is the first version of the extended { PCN encoding scheme draft. Note it hasn't been completely checked for { consistency, grammar, etc so any and all reviews gratefully accepted. { { My hope is to get a 01 version out in plenty of time for Dublin. { { Toby { ____________________________________________________________________ { Toby Moncaster, Networks Research Centre, BT { B54/70 Adastral Park, Ipswich, IP53RE, UK. +44 1473 648734 { { { -----Original Message----- { From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org] { Sent: 23 June 2008 18:09 { To: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R { Cc: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,CXR9 R; menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de { Subject: New Version Notification for { draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 { { { A new version of I-D, draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00.txt has { been successfuly submitted by T Moncaster and posted to the IETF { repository. { { Filename: draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding { Revision: 00 { Title: A three state extended PCN encoding scheme { Creation_date: 2008-06-23 { WG ID: Independent Submission { Number_of_pages: 13 { { Abstract: { Pre-congestion notification (PCN) is a mechanism designed to protect { the Quality of Service of inelastic flows. It does this by marking { packets when traffic load on a link is approaching or has exceeded a { threshold below the physical link rate. This baseline encoding { specified how two encoding states could be encoded into the IP { header. This document specified an extension to the baseline { encoding that enables three encoding states to be carried in the IP { header as well as enabling limited support for end-to-end ECN. { { Status { { This memo is posted as an Internet-Draft with an intent to eventually { be published as an experimental RFC. { { { { { The IETF Secretariat. { { { _______________________________________________ { PCN mailing list { PCN@ietf.org { https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 03:53:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620303A683E; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:53:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48AA3A686A for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:53:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VHH1ZX2d+RtN for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C153A677C for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.64]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:54:17 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:54:23 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8AE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 Thread-Index: AcjjXAPPhC4LM8shS0+3iXNuDsYpmAAABA6wAL9yqcAAA7LbsA== From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2008 10:54:17.0716 (UTC) FILETIME=[20D9D340:01C8E669] Subject: Re: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for the comments Phil. I will incorporate those changes in the next version of the draft (which will hopefully be a WG item by then!). I agree there is a need for some clarification between the different tunnelling sections. One possible way to do this would be to write a complete ID (targeted to be informational) giving full details of the current constraints of tunnelling, the correct way to deal with tunnels inside a PCN-domain, the correct order in which to perform PCN actions if the ingress or egress nodes are also tunnel encapsulators or decapsulators and a brief explanation of what would be gained if all tunnel behaviours were rationalised for both DSCP and ECN fields. Toby > -----Original Message----- > From: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R > Sent: 15 July 2008 10:30 > To: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification > fordraft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 > > Toby, > > It looks good to me. Yes, I support it as wg doc. > > Some comments: > > S4.3: > Clarify that the context of the first bullet > (PCN-ingress-node action if pkt arrives with CE or ECT) is > for packets that use the same DSCP as PCN-traffic > > S5: > "that traffic" -> "traffic that" > > "ECN marked traffic is blocked from entering the PCN-domain directly" > 2 things. First, the context is non-PCN-traffic using the > same DSCP as PCN-traffic. Second, ECN capable rather than ECN > marked (or whatever term includes ECT as well as CE) > > 4th bullet, All traffic -> All PCN-traffic > > I think we need some minor work between the Tunnelling > sections in the encoding drafts, architecture draft & bob's > Layered Encapsulation of Congestion Notification, > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/briscoe-tsvwg-ecn-tunnel-0 1.txt . i don't think there's any real content that needs > changing, just some slight clarification. as i understand it, > the encoding drafts summarises how the behaviour of existing > tunnelling encapsulators/decapsulators has constrained the > choice of encoding; the architecture draft summarises what > the 'right' behaviour for tunnelling > encapsulators/decapsulators is in a PCN-domain; and bob's > draft adds a whole lot of detailed explanation and history etc. > > > { -----Original Message----- > { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > { toby.moncaster@bt.com > { Sent: 11 July 2008 14:43 > { To: pcn@ietf.org > { Subject: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn- > { baseline-encoding-02 > { > { > { > { -----Original Message----- > { From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org] > { Sent: 11 July 2008 14:43 > { To: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R > { Cc: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,CXR9 R; menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > { Subject: New Version Notification for > { draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 > { > { > { A new version of I-D, > draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.txt has > { been successfuly submitted by T Moncaster and posted to the IETF > { repository. > { > { Filename: draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding > { Revision: 02 > { Title: Baseline Encoding and Transport of > Pre-Congestion > { Information > { Creation_date: 2008-07-11 > { WG ID: Independent Submission > { Number_of_pages: 13 > { > { Abstract: > { Pre-congestion notification (PCN) provides information to support > { admission control and flow termination in order to protect the > { Quality of Service of inelastic flows. It does this by marking > { packets when traffic load on a link is approaching or has exceeded a > { threshold below the physical link rate. This document specifies how > { such marks are to be encoded into the IP header. The baseline > { encoding described here provides for only two PCN encoding states. > { Other documents describe extended encoding schemes that allow for > { three encoding states. > { > { Status > { > { This memo is posted as an Internet-Draft with an intent to > eventually > { progress to standards track. > { > { > { > { > { The IETF Secretariat. > { > { > { _______________________________________________ > { PCN mailing list > { PCN@ietf.org > { https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 03:55:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BBC3A686A; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:55:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B193A686A for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:55:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YqawPikMqTg8 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1583A677C for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.64]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:55:43 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:55:48 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8AF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 Thread-Index: AcjVU+bNZiMWYhQ2TvupjcXli73s+wAAFr3QBEJZPpAAAuD8gA== From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2008 10:55:43.0155 (UTC) FILETIME=[53C6C830:01C8E669] Subject: Re: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification fordraft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, Thanks for the comments. I will make those changes in the 01 version of the draft which I will aim to release straight after the submission server re-opens in 3 weeks time. Toby > -----Original Message----- > From: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R > Sent: 15 July 2008 10:55 > To: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification > fordraft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 > > Toby, Michael, bob, > > It looks good to me. > > S3: terminology > PCN-flow - a flow covered by a reservation but which hasn't > signalled that it requires end-to-end ECN support. > > I think the concept of PCN-flows should include PCN-enabled-ECN-flows. > > I'm not sure about "reservation", surely something like > "using the PCN mechanisms". Or protected by them. > > > 6.1: > In addition all packets should have their DSCP reset to the > appropriate DSCP for the next hop. If the next hop is not another > PCN region this will not be a PCN enabled DSCP, and by default will > be the best-efforts DSCP. Alterntively higher layer signalling > mechanisms may allow the DSCP that packets entered the PCN-domain > with to be re-instated. > > All packets -> all PCN-packets > Should have -> SHOULD have (or possibly MUST have) > Last sentence - this is a likely example of what the higher > layer signalling could do, however the domain on the far side > of the pcn-domain might use a different DSCP from the domain > on the near side. > > S7.1: > Transports wishing to use both a reservation and end-to-end ECN > I think "PCN" would better than "reservation" > > S7.2.0: indicate that the context is PCN-traffic > > 7.2.1: > downgrading is here a MAY, whereas in the > baseline-encoding-02 it was an "SHOULD... or ..." > rather than "lower (non-PCN) service class" it would be > better to say lower priority (non-PCN) behaviour aggregate > > > Typos: > S4: an additional PCN enabled DiffServ codepoints. -> codepoint > S5: ., -> . > S6.1: Alterntively -> Alternatively > > phil > { -----Original Message----- > { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of > { toby.moncaster@bt.com > { Sent: 23 June 2008 18:15 > { To: pcn@ietf.org > { Subject: [PCN] FW: New Version Notification > fordraft-moncaster-pcn-3- > { state-encoding-00 > { > { > { As promised in earlier emails here is the first version of > the extended > { PCN encoding scheme draft. Note it hasn't been completely > checked for > { consistency, grammar, etc so any and all reviews gratefully > accepted. > { > { My hope is to get a 01 version out in plenty of time for Dublin. > { > { Toby > { ____________________________________________________________________ > { Toby Moncaster, Networks Research Centre, BT > { B54/70 Adastral Park, Ipswich, IP53RE, UK. +44 1473 648734 > { > { > { -----Original Message----- > { From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org] > { Sent: 23 June 2008 18:09 > { To: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R > { Cc: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,CXR9 R; menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > { Subject: New Version Notification for > { draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 > { > { > { A new version of I-D, > draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00.txt has > { been successfuly submitted by T Moncaster and posted to the IETF > { repository. > { > { Filename: draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding > { Revision: 00 > { Title: A three state extended PCN encoding scheme > { Creation_date: 2008-06-23 > { WG ID: Independent Submission > { Number_of_pages: 13 > { > { Abstract: > { Pre-congestion notification (PCN) is a mechanism designed to protect > { the Quality of Service of inelastic flows. It does this by marking > { packets when traffic load on a link is approaching or has exceeded a > { threshold below the physical link rate. This baseline encoding > { specified how two encoding states could be encoded into the IP > { header. This document specified an extension to the baseline > { encoding that enables three encoding states to be carried in the IP > { header as well as enabling limited support for end-to-end ECN. > { > { Status > { > { This memo is posted as an Internet-Draft with an intent to > eventually > { be published as an experimental RFC. > { > { > { > { > { The IETF Secretariat. > { > { > { _______________________________________________ > { PCN mailing list > { PCN@ietf.org > { https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 05:51:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21EF28C0DC; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:51:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2925F28C0DC for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:51:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.811, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MIME_ASCII0=1.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TzNjE-9xFs3i for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178723A6833 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:51:21 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:51:20 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8B1@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB646516BA8332@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft Thread-Index: AcjXayyZY1ULmuV2QiaapwOB+jMbygCy3EfAAwqgojA= From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2008 12:51:21.0492 (UTC) FILETIME=[7B58FD40:01C8E679] Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2146121358==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2146121358== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8E679.7AC7EABF" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E679.7AC7EABF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe=20 =20 Thanks very much for all the comments! =20 In-line replies phil =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jozef Babiarz [mailto:babiarz@nortel.com]=20 Sent: 29 June 2008 23:51 To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org Subject: RE: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft =20 Phil,=20 My comments on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 version.=20 =20 ********************** Section 2 specifies the functions involved, which in outline (see Figure 1) are: =20 o Packet classify and condition - decide whether an incoming packet belongs to a PCN-flow or not; [Joe] This is a PCN ingress node function and not part of the metering and marking behavior that this draft is defining. This should be moved to Arch draft or draft that defines edge behaviors. =20 [phil] yes, pkt classification is a PCN ingress node function but it's also a function that all PCN-nodes need to do. They have to decide whether a particular pkt is a PCN-pkt or not, by looking at the DSCP & ECN fields. However, the mention of PCN-flow is somewhat misleading and it think it would be better to re-phrase this bullet: o Packet classify - decide whether a packet is a PCN-packet or not; =20 =20 =20 o Condition: drop or downgrade packets if the link is overloaded; [Joe] This could be a PCN ingress node function but not part of the metering and marking behavior that this draft is defining. This should be moved to Arch draft or draft that defines edge behaviors. =20 [phil] yes, conditioning is a PCN ingress node function but it's also a function for all PCN-nodes.=20 =20 [phil] I'm not sure about your comment about deleting from this draft discussion about specific PCN-ingress-node policing (traffic conditioning) actions. The PCN-ingress-node's traffic conditioning is very similar to other PCN-nodes, just some slight specialisation, so it seems easy to talk about it here. Also the PCN-ingress-node policing stuff is MUSTs which is ok in this draft but not possible in the Informational archit draft & edge behaviour drafts. =20 Figure 1: Schematic of functions for PCN-marking [Joe] The Classify and Condition blocks should be deleted. As stated above, combination of the DSCP field and ECN field in the IP header is used to indicate that a packet is a PCN-packet, so packet classification is not needed.=20 =20 [phil] I would call this action [looking at the combination of dscp & ecn to determine if it's a pcn-pkt] pkt classification. Alternative name? =20 1.1. Terminology =20 o Other-traffic: traffic that uses the same DS codepoint as PCN- traffic, but a different value in the ECN field; has the same priority as PCN-traffic (in terms of scheduling at PCN-nodes); but is not subject to PCN-marking, nor PCN's admissin control and flow termination mechanisms. Thus PCN-traffic and other-traffic have different per-domain behaviours RFC 3086 [RFC3086]. Note: there may be no other-traffic in a PCN-domain. Note: the term PCN-BA does not include other-traffic (this is a clarification, as the definition of behaviour aggregate in RFC 2474 [RFC2474], RFC 2475 [RFC2475] is somewhat ambiguous in the context of PCN. [Joe] Suggest rewording above to: Non-PCN-traffic: traffic that is admission controlled using some other means and uses the same DS codepoint as PCN-traffic but a different value in the ECN field; has the same priority as PCN-traffic (in terms of scheduling at PCN-nodes); but is not subject to PCN-marking, nor PCN's admission control and flow termination mechanisms. =20 [phil] the different term seems better to me, and a re-wording on these lines is good/ =20 =20 [Joe comment] The mixture of non-PCN and PCN traffic into the same queue introduces two options for metering. Only PCN traffic is metered or Non-PCN and PCN traffic is metered against PCN-threshold and PCN-excess rates. For flow termination, metering PCN and non-PCN traffic is required otherwise not enough traffic will be removed. For admission control metering could be performed just for PCN-traffic or PCN and non-PCN traffic. Should also note that each PCN node needs police non-PCN traffic otherwise non-PCN traffic could break the PCN admission control. Think it would be good idea that is issues is documented later in this draft. =20 =20 [phil] I think admission control metering also needs to meter non-PCN-traffic, since it has the same DSCP as PCN-traffic it shares the link's capacity (equal scheduling priority). Otherwise there's a risk of over-admission of pcn, if there's lots of the non-PCN-traffic. The issue of queues is a separate one. The pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic might use the same queue or different queues. But even in the latter case, same scheduling priority (this seems implicit in them having the same DSCP - in principle I suppose they could be scheduled with different priorities). Yes each pcn-node polices non-pcn-traffic, this is covered later.=20 =20 =20 o Priority-traffic: traffic that is more important than PCN that shares the same capacity as PCN and is priority scheduled over PCN (perhaps an operator's control messages). Note: there may be no priority-traffic in a PCN-domain. [Joe] Delete the above. If traffic is going to be scheduled differently than it needs a different DS codepoint. =20 [phil] yes it has a different dscp. However it uses pcn capacity but scheduled at a higher priority (ie am assuming this traffic doesn't have its own dedicated capacity but rather just uses the same capacity as pcn but scheduled at a higher priority). =20 o Metered-traffic: the collective term for PCN-traffic and (if any) priority-traffic and other-traffic. [Joe] Delete the above. Do not understand why this is needed. =20 [phil] all this traffic should contribute to the PCN meters, since it shares the same capacity as PCN. If there's lots of this traffic then there's less room for PCN-traffic.=20 =20 [phil] I think it would be worth adding to the Appendix. Especially if metered-traffic only consists of PCN-traffic, then traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes may not be critical, since if a Pcn-node is overloaded then flow termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. So perhaps traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes is a SHOULD or even MAY rather than a MUST.=20 =20 =20 o Downgrade: Re-marking a packet, ie changing its DS codepoint, into a lower priority behaviour aggregate, such as best effort or assured forwarding; as a consequence perhaps dropping lower priority packets. [Joe] Downgrading of packets, changing DS codepoints so that they are forward by a different queue is very bad as it cause miss ordering of packets. The downgrading concept can be used in admission control, instead of block a new flow from being admitted is allowed into the network into a service class that is not admission control and therefore it my encounter lower queues. Delete the above. =20 [phil] the danger of re-ordering is mentioned in section B.3. however, it would be good to have a discussion about whether downgrading is a sensible traffic conditioning action, or whether (like shaping) it should be listed as an unsuitable action.=20 =20 ... =20 2.3. Traffic conditioning function ... [Joe] The complete section 2.3. Traffic conditioning function needs to be deleted and replaced with discussion of the issues when PCN and non-PCN traffic is aggregated into a single forwarding service class or queue. If an operator chooses to use the same forwarding service class for both PCN and non-PCN traffic than the non-PCN traffic SHOULD be policed on each PCN node. (Also SHOULD or MUST is up for debate). =20 [Joe comment] My personal view is that to keep it simple PCN and non-PCN traffic should not be mixed into the same forwarding service class (queue). But for completeness it should be covered in a section in the back of the draft. =20 =20 [phil] for me, the issue is whether the PCN-traffic and non-pcn-traffic are scheduled with the same priority. Separate queues opens up the possibility of different priorities, but of course they could still be prioritised the same. I've been assuming that because they've got the same dscp they'll have the same scheduling priority - however I guess this wouldn't necessarily have to be the case. Worth discussing this, and what the most likely /sensible implementation is.=20 =20 =20 2.5. Excess traffic meter function =20 A packet SHOULD NOT be metered (by this excess traffic meter function) in the following two cases: =20 o If the packet is already excess-traffic-marked; =20 o If this PCN-node drops (downgrades) the packet because the link is overloaded. [Joe] Suggest deleting the word downgrades. I also have an issue with the meter needing to know if the packet is going to be dropped or not at some later stage in the node. This requirement may introduce high complexity in some router implementations. Why is this important? =20 [phil] re "know if the packet is going to be dropped or not at some later stage in the node". In fact, the dropping (etc) action will presumably be implemented in a node before the metering function, at least that seems the easiest way to implement it. Perhaps I should re-write with this assumption, but point out this issue if you do it the other way round. The problem was explained by Michael in one of his papers, if I remember it right it's that you end up terminating too much traffic if a node meters pkts that it also drops.=20 =20 B.2. Classify =20 Traffic that has a higher DiffServ priority than PCN, but shares the same capacity, is metered as though it were PCN-traffic but cannot be PCN-marked. This means that a meter may indicate a packet is to be PCN-marked, but the Marking function knows it cannot be marked. It is left open to the implementation exactly what to do in this case; one simple possibility is to mark the next PCN-packet. Note that unless the PCN-packets are a large fraction of all the metered- packets then the PCN mechanisms may not work well. =20 Similar remarks can be made with respect to other-traffic. [Joe] Do not understand B.2. How can if have higher DiffServ priority and share the same queue? =20 [phil] shares same capacity, not the same queue.=20 =20 B.3. Traffic conditioning =20 [Joe] How do you downgrade a packet without causing re-ordering of packets in flow under congestion? [Joe] Section B.3 Traffic conditioning need significant amount of rewriting. Would suggest that it be called Traffic Policing and as it pertains to PCN and real-time flows only packet dropping could be applied. The other traffic conditioning methods should be deleted as they not appropriated for real-time applications. =20 [phil] I tried to follow the terminology of rfc 2474 & 2475. as is the way, the match isn't 100% right for pcn. Eg 2474 defines traffic conditioning as including "metering, policing, shaping, and packet marking."=20 I chose to use the term Policing only in the context of PCN-ingress-nodes. Of course I could have just called that traffic conditioning as well, and strictly that would be more correct. I just thought it would be easier to save the word policing for ingress node action. However, I'm not sure this was the right choice.=20 =20 Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: June 26, 2008 5:01 AM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft =20 I've just updated the marking behaviour draft, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour- 01.txt=20 =20 Main change was to re-write Traffic conditioning section - also tried to take account of the two encoding drafts (baseline & extension). =20 Comments welcome! Thanks Phil =20 Abstract =20 This document standardises the two marking behaviours of PCN-nodes: threshold marking and excess traffic marking. Threshold marking marks all PCN-packets if the PCN traffic rate is greater than a first configured rate. Excess traffic marking marks a proportion of PCN- packets, such that the amount marked equals the traffic rate in excess of a second configured rate. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E679.7AC7EABF Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Joe

 

Thanks very much for all the = comments!

 

In-line replies

phil

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jozef Babiarz [mailto:babiarz@nortel.com]
Sent: 29 June 2008 = 23:51
To: = Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [PCN] New = version of the marking behaviour draft

 

Phil, =

My comments on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 version.

 

*****************= *****

Section 2 specifies the functions involved, = which in outline (see Figure 1) are:

 

   o  Packet classify and = condition - decide whether an incoming packet

      belongs to a = PCN-flow or not;

[Joe] This is a PCN ingress node function and = not part of the metering and marking behavior that this draft is defining. This = should be moved to Arch draft or draft that defines edge = behaviors.

 

[phil] yes, pkt classification is a PCN ingress node function but it’s also a = function that all PCN-nodes need to do. They have to decide whether a particular = pkt is a PCN-pkt or not, by looking at the DSCP & ECN fields. However, the = mention of PCN-flow is somewhat misleading and it think it would be better to = re-phrase this bullet:

o  Packet classify - decide whether a = packet is a PCN-packet or not;

 

 

 

o  Condition: drop or = downgrade packets if the link is overloaded;

[Joe] This could be a PCN ingress node = function but not part of the metering and marking behavior that this draft is = defining. This should be moved to Arch draft or draft that defines edge = behaviors.

 

[phil] yes, = conditioning is a PCN ingress node function but it’s also a function for all = PCN-nodes.

 

[phil] I’m = not sure about your comment about deleting from this draft discussion about = specific PCN-ingress-node policing (traffic conditioning) actions. The = PCN-ingress-node’s traffic conditioning is very similar to other PCN-nodes, just some = slight specialisation, so it seems easy to talk about it here. Also the PCN-ingress-node = policing stuff is MUSTs which is ok in this draft but not possible in the = Informational archit draft & edge behaviour drafts.

 

   Figure 1: Schematic of functions = for PCN-marking

[Joe] The Classify and Condition blocks = should be deleted. As stated above, combination of the DSCP field and ECN field in = the IP header is used to indicate that a packet is a PCN-packet, so packet classification is not needed.

 

[phil] I would = call this action [looking at the combination of dscp & ecn to determine if = it’s a pcn-pkt] pkt classification. Alternative name?

 

1.1.  Terminology

 

   o  Other-traffic: traffic = that uses the same DS codepoint as PCN-

      traffic, but a different value in the ECN field; has the same

      priority as = PCN-traffic (in terms of scheduling at PCN-nodes); but

      is not subject = to PCN-marking, nor PCN's admissin control and flow

      termination mechanisms.  Thus PCN-traffic and other-traffic = have

      different = per-domain behaviours RFC 3086 [RFC3086].  Note: there

      may be no = other-traffic in a PCN-domain.  Note: the term PCN-BA

      does not = include other-traffic (this is a clarification, as the

      definition of = behaviour aggregate in RFC 2474 [RFC2474], RFC 2475

      [RFC2475] is = somewhat ambiguous in the context of PCN.

[Joe] Suggest rewording above = to:

Non-PCN-traffic: traffic that is admission = controlled using some other means and uses the same DS codepoint as PCN-traffic but = a different value in the ECN field; has the same priority as PCN-traffic = (in terms of scheduling at PCN-nodes); but is not subject to PCN-marking, = nor PCN's admission control and flow termination mechanisms.

 

[phil] the = different term seems better to me, and a re-wording on these lines is = good/

 

 

[Joe comment] The mixture of non-PCN and PCN = traffic into the same queue introduces two options for metering. Only PCN = traffic is metered or Non-PCN and PCN traffic is metered against PCN-threshold and PCN-excess rates. For flow termination, metering PCN and non-PCN traffic = is required otherwise not enough traffic will be removed. For admission = control metering could be performed just for PCN-traffic or PCN and non-PCN = traffic. Should also note that each PCN node needs police non-PCN traffic = otherwise non-PCN traffic could break the PCN admission control. Think it would be = good idea that is issues is documented later in this draft. =  

 

[phil] I think = admission control metering also needs to meter non-PCN-traffic, since it has the = same DSCP as PCN-traffic it shares the link’s capacity (equal = scheduling priority). Otherwise there’s a risk of over-admission of pcn, if = there’s lots of the non-PCN-traffic.

The issue of = queues is a separate one. The pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic might use the same = queue or different queues. But even in the latter case, same scheduling priority = (this seems implicit in them having the same DSCP – in principle I = suppose they could be scheduled with different priorities).

Yes each = pcn-node polices non-pcn-traffic, this is covered later.

 

 

   o  Priority-traffic: = traffic that is more important than PCN that

      shares the = same capacity as PCN and is priority scheduled over PCN

      (perhaps an = operator's control messages).  Note: there may be no

      = priority-traffic in a PCN-domain.

[Joe] Delete the above. If traffic is going = to be scheduled differently than it needs a different DS = codepoint.

 

[phil] yes it = has a different dscp. However it uses pcn capacity but scheduled at a higher = priority (ie am assuming this traffic doesn’t have its own dedicated = capacity but rather just uses the same capacity as pcn but scheduled at a higher = priority).

 

   o  Metered-traffic: the = collective term for PCN-traffic and (if any)

      = priority-traffic and other-traffic.

[Joe] Delete the above. Do not understand why = this is needed.

 

[phil] all this = traffic should contribute to the PCN meters, since it shares the same capacity = as PCN. If there’s lots of this traffic then there’s less room for PCN-traffic.

 

[phil] I think it = would be worth adding to the Appendix. Especially if metered-traffic only consists of PCN-traffic, then traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes may not be critical, since if a Pcn-node is overloaded then flow termination will = rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So = traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short = period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. So perhaps = traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes is a SHOULD or even MAY rather than a = MUST.

 

 

   o  Downgrade: Re-marking a = packet, ie changing its DS codepoint, into

      a lower = priority behaviour aggregate, such as best effort or

      assured = forwarding; as a consequence perhaps dropping lower

      priority = packets.

[Joe] Downgrading = of packets, changing DS codepoints so that they are forward by a different = queue is very bad as it cause miss ordering of packets. The downgrading = concept can be used in admission control, instead of block a new flow from being = admitted is allowed into the network into a service class that is not admission = control and therefore it my encounter lower queues. Delete the = above.

 

[phil] the = danger of re-ordering is mentioned in section B.3. however, it would be good to have a = discussion about whether downgrading is a sensible traffic conditioning action, or = whether (like shaping) it should be listed as an unsuitable action. =

 

...

 

2.3.  Traffic conditioning = function

...

 [Joe] The complete section 2.3.  = Traffic conditioning function needs to be deleted and replaced with discussion = of the issues when PCN and non-PCN traffic is aggregated into a single = forwarding service class or queue. If an operator chooses to use the same = forwarding service class for both PCN and non-PCN traffic than the non-PCN traffic = SHOULD be policed on each PCN node. (Also SHOULD or MUST is up for = debate).

 

[Joe comment] My personal view is that to = keep it simple PCN and non-PCN traffic should not be mixed into the same = forwarding service class (queue). But for completeness it should be covered in a = section in the back of the draft.  

 

[phil] for me, = the issue is whether the PCN-traffic and non-pcn-traffic are scheduled with the = same priority. Separate queues opens up the possibility of different = priorities, but of course they could still be prioritised the same. I’ve been = assuming that because they’ve got the same dscp they’ll have the same scheduling priority – however I guess this wouldn’t = necessarily have to be the case. Worth discussing this, and what the most likely = /sensible implementation is.

 

 

2.5.  Excess traffic meter = function

 

   A packet SHOULD NOT be metered = (by this excess traffic meter

   function) in the following two = cases:

 

   o  If the packet is already excess-traffic-marked;

 

   o  If this PCN-node drops (downgrades) the packet because the link is

    =   overloaded.

[Joe] Suggest = deleting the word downgrades. I also have an issue with the meter needing to know if = the packet is going to be dropped or not at some later stage in the node. = This requirement may introduce high complexity in some router = implementations. Why is this important?

 

[phil] re = “know if the packet is going to be dropped or not at some = later stage in the node”. In fact, the dropping (etc) action will = presumably be implemented in a node before the metering function, at least that seems = the easiest way to implement it. Perhaps I should re-write with this = assumption, but point out this issue if you do it the other way round. The problem = was explained by Michael in one of his papers, if I remember it right = it’s that you end up terminating too much traffic if a node meters pkts that = it also drops.

 

B.2.  Classify

 

   Traffic that has a higher = DiffServ priority than PCN, but shares the

   same capacity, is metered as = though it were PCN-traffic but cannot be

   PCN-marked.  This means = that a meter may indicate a packet is to be

   PCN-marked, but the Marking = function knows it cannot be marked.  It

   is left open to the = implementation exactly what to do in this case;

   one simple possibility is to = mark the next PCN-packet.  Note that

   unless the PCN-packets are a = large fraction of all the metered-

   packets then the PCN mechanisms = may not work well.

 

   Similar remarks can be made with = respect to other-traffic.

[Joe] Do not = understand B.2. How can if have higher DiffServ priority and share the same = queue?

 

[phil] shares = same capacity, not the same queue.

 

B.3.  Traffic = conditioning

 

[Joe] How do you = downgrade a packet without causing re-ordering of packets in flow under = congestion?

[Joe] Section B.3 = Traffic conditioning need significant amount of rewriting. Would suggest that it = be called Traffic Policing and as it pertains to PCN and real-time flows = only packet dropping could be applied. The other traffic conditioning methods = should be deleted as they not appropriated for real-time = applications.

 

[phil] I tried to follow the terminology =
of rfc 2474 & 2475. as is the way, the match isn’t 100% right =
for pcn. Eg 2474 defines traffic conditioning as including =
“metering, policing, shaping, and packet =
marking.” 
I chose =
to use the term Policing only in the context of PCN-ingress-nodes. Of =
course I could have just called that traffic conditioning as well, and =
strictly that would be more correct. I just thought it would be easier =
to save the word policing for ingress node action. However, I’m =
not sure this was the right choice.

 

Regards, = Joe
email:babiarz@nor= tel.com
Telephone:613-763= -6098

From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: June 26, 2008 5:01 = AM
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] New = version of the marking behaviour draft

 

I’ve just updated the marking behaviour = draft, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eardley-pcn-mark= ing-behaviour-01.txt

 

Main change was to re-write Traffic = conditioning section – also tried to take account of the two encoding drafts = (baseline & extension).

 

Comments welcome!

Thanks

Phil

 

Abstract
 
   This document standardises the =
two marking behaviours of PCN-nodes:
   threshold marking and excess =
traffic marking.  Threshold marking
   marks all PCN-packets if the PCN =
traffic rate is greater than a first
   configured rate.  Excess =
traffic marking marks a proportion of PCN-
   packets, such that the amount =
marked equals the traffic rate in
   excess of a second configured =
rate.

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E679.7AC7EABF-- --===============2146121358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============2146121358==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 04:03:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0663A691D; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB6A3A6930 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:03:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.533, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OS78DL6OUZoE for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E4F33A691D for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpe-071-077-051-004.nc.res.rr.com ([71.77.51.4]) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KJ4nY-0005Xt-LH for pcn@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:03:52 -0400 From: Steven Blake To: pcn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-8jKFGLuv7/DGKEhiK2CN" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:03:53 -0400 Message-Id: <1216206233.22218.25.camel@tachyon> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Subject: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org --=-8jKFGLuv7/DGKEhiK2CN Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings. I plan to upload the following draft agenda for Dublin today. There are a few presentations that may be added at the end, time permitting. Please send comments to the list. Regards, // Steve --=-8jKFGLuv7/DGKEhiK2CN Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=pcn-ietf72-agenda.draft.txt Content-Type: text/plain; name=pcn-ietf72-agenda.draft.txt; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notification WG (pcn) IETF72 Meeting DRAFT Agenda CHAIRs: Scott Bradner Steven Blake THURSDAY, July 31, 2008 0900-1130 Morning Session I Rathcoole ==================================== AGENDA: o Administrivia chairs 10 min - Blue sheets - Scribe - Agenda bash - Milestones status o Discuss ITU-T liaison statement chairs 20 min o draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04 Eardley 30 min o draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 Moncaster 20 min o draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behavior-01 Eardley 15 min o draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 Moncaster 10 min o draft-briscoe-tsvwg-ecn-tunnel-01 Briscoe 10 min --=-8jKFGLuv7/DGKEhiK2CN Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --=-8jKFGLuv7/DGKEhiK2CN-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 04:39:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278803A6B09; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F4F3A6B09 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.224 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.375, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kq2OGque1kRX for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44473A686C for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:40:20 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:40:19 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8BD@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <1216206233.22218.25.camel@tachyon> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 Thread-Index: AcjnM6txjaF2DTPBQAOfJXIC+9k/ugABBy9w From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 11:40:20.0257 (UTC) FILETIME=[B9DDE110:01C8E738] Subject: Re: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I remember at/after the last ietf we had this "consensus question" -----Original Message----- From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steven Blake Sent: 20 April 2008 18:41 To: pcn Subject: Re: [PCN] Consensus questions: Q4, Q5, and Q6 > Q6: If presented with sufficient evidence in a timely fashion, would > the PCN wg entertain the option of modifying the interior router > Excess-Rate marking behavior for the standards-track PCN scheme (as > described in question 4)? > The feedback for Q6 was a mixture of abstain and Yes with caveats. If and when someone wants to propose modifications to the Excess-Rate marking behavior, we can see if there is interest to discuss it on the list, but I *strongly encourage* that any such discussion needs to happen before the Dublin meeting. ---------------------------------- as far as I know, there've been no proposals. But if I missed them, then I guess that draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behavior-01 would need more than 15mins (it captures the Consensus on marking behaviour, ie Questions 4 & 5) thanks, phil { -----Original Message----- { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { Steven Blake { Sent: 16 July 2008 12:04 { To: pcn { Subject: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 { { Greetings. I plan to upload the following draft agenda for Dublin { today. There are a few presentations that may be added at the end, time { permitting. { { Please send comments to the list. { { { Regards, { { // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 05:56:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33AD728C1D1; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA6728C1D1 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpwpGIw35m9f for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AF228C1AD for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7CC7198E61; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:56:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B678198E60; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:56:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBD3198E51; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:56:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <487DEFB8.4090709@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:55:20 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8BD@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8BD@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, there is a requirement for packet-size independent marking http://tools.ietf.org/wg/pcn/draft-menth-pcn-emft-00.txt which is necessary to achieve fairness for marked flow termination. Evidence for its relevance it given in http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-MFT.pdf I raised this issue already at the last meeting since I think it's a useful feature. Regards, Michael philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > Hi, > > I remember at/after the last ietf we had this "consensus question" > > -----Original Message----- > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Steven Blake > Sent: 20 April 2008 18:41 > To: pcn > Subject: Re: [PCN] Consensus questions: Q4, Q5, and Q6 > > >> Q6: If presented with sufficient evidence in a timely fashion, would >> the PCN wg entertain the option of modifying the interior router >> Excess-Rate marking behavior for the standards-track PCN scheme >> > (as > >> described in question 4)? >> >> > > The feedback for Q6 was a mixture of abstain and Yes with caveats. If > and when someone wants to propose modifications to the Excess-Rate > marking behavior, we can see if there is interest to discuss it on the > list, but I *strongly encourage* that any such discussion needs to > happen before the Dublin meeting. > > ---------------------------------- > > as far as I know, there've been no proposals. But if I missed them, then > I guess that draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behavior-01 would need more than > 15mins (it captures the Consensus on marking behaviour, ie Questions 4 & > 5) > > thanks, > phil > > { -----Original Message----- > { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > { Steven Blake > { Sent: 16 July 2008 12:04 > { To: pcn > { Subject: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 > { > { Greetings. I plan to upload the following draft agenda for Dublin > { today. There are a few presentations that may be added at the end, > time > { permitting. > { > { Please send comments to the list. > { > { > { Regards, > { > { // Steve > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 06:16:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2C728C1AD; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:16:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBAB3A6BB5 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:16:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lssnRQiVGycj for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl (rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94EE43A6BB0 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.cs.utwente.nl (janus.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.26]) by rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id m6GDGQjZ009016; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:16:26 +0200 (MEST) Received: from 84.82.109.231 (auth. user karagian@imap1.ewi.utwente.nl) by webmail.cs.utwente.nl with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:16:26 +0000 To: "pcn@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:16:26 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.13 (On: webmail.cs.utwente.nl) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <487DEFB8.4090709@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> From: "Georgios Karagiannis" Bounce-To: "Georgios Karagiannis" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 130.89.10.5 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0rc3 (rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.5]); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:16:27 +0200 (MEST) Cc: heinmekkes@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Steven, Hi all Please note that the authors of the LC-PCN draft would like to have a time slot of 15 minutes. In this presnetation the main updates of LC-PCN will be presented and also some results of the performance experiments. Please note that the draft does not include experiments, but these results could be shown during the IETF meeting. Please note that I will not be able to come to the IETF. Hein Mekkes will give the presentation! Best regards, Georgios >> >> { -----Original Message----- >> { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> { Steven Blake >> { Sent: 16 July 2008 12:04 >> { To: pcn >> { Subject: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 >> { >> { Greetings. I plan to upload the following draft agenda for Dublin >> { today. There are a few presentations that may be added at the end, >> time >> { permitting. >> { >> { Please send comments to the list. >> { >> { >> { Regards, >> { >> { // Steve >> _______________________________________________ >> PCN mailing list >> PCN@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn >> > >-- >Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor >University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science >Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 >phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 >mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de >http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > >_______________________________________________ >PCN mailing list >PCN@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 06:33:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A64453A6B76; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:33:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AE83A6B76 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:33:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Efexkxc1mmio for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763833A6909 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:34:14 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:34:13 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C0@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <487DEFB8.4090709@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 Thread-Index: AcjnQ2B6D11AJznNQHmxn7AHqvHVMQAA/HJw From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 13:34:14.0134 (UTC) FILETIME=[A32CC160:01C8E748] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Michael, Sure, hopefully already got your suggestion 2.5. Excess traffic meter function ... If the token bucket is within an MTU of being empty, then the meter SHOULD indicate to the Marking function that the packet is to be excess-traffic-marked; MTU means the maximum size of PCN- packets on the link. Otherwise the meter does not indicate marking. And In appendix B.5. Excess traffic metering Packet size independent marking is specified as a SHOULD in Section 2.4 ( "If the token bucket is within an MTU of being empty, then the meter SHOULD indicate to the Marking function that the packet is to be excess-traffic-marked; MTU means the maximum size of PCN-packets on the link.") Without it, large packets are more likely to be excess-traffic-marked than small packets and this means that, with some edge behaviours, flows with large packets are more likely to be terminated than flows with small packets [I-D.draft-briscoe-tsvwg-byte-pkt-mark] [Menth]. Ok or need improving? Thanks phil { -----Original Message----- { From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de] { Sent: 16 July 2008 13:55 { To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R { Cc: slblake@petri-meat.com; pcn@ietf.org { Subject: Re: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 { { Hi Phil, { { there is a requirement for packet-size independent marking { http://tools.ietf.org/wg/pcn/draft-menth-pcn-emft-00.txt { which is necessary to achieve fairness for marked flow termination. { Evidence for its relevance it given in { http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08 - { PCN-MFT.pdf { I raised this issue already at the last meeting since I think it's a { useful feature. { { Regards, { { Michael { { philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: { > Hi, { > { > I remember at/after the last ietf we had this "consensus question" { > { > -----Original Message----- { > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { > Steven Blake { > Sent: 20 April 2008 18:41 { > To: pcn { > Subject: Re: [PCN] Consensus questions: Q4, Q5, and Q6 { > { > { >> Q6: If presented with sufficient evidence in a timely fashion, would { >> the PCN wg entertain the option of modifying the interior router { >> Excess-Rate marking behavior for the standards-track PCN scheme { >> { > (as { > { >> described in question 4)? { >> { >> { > { > The feedback for Q6 was a mixture of abstain and Yes with caveats. If { > and when someone wants to propose modifications to the Excess-Rate { > marking behavior, we can see if there is interest to discuss it on the { > list, but I *strongly encourage* that any such discussion needs to { > happen before the Dublin meeting. { > { > ---------------------------------- { > { > as far as I know, there've been no proposals. But if I missed them, then { > I guess that draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behavior-01 would need more than { > 15mins (it captures the Consensus on marking behaviour, ie Questions 4 & { > 5) { > { > thanks, { > phil { > { > { -----Original Message----- { > { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { > { Steven Blake { > { Sent: 16 July 2008 12:04 { > { To: pcn { > { Subject: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 { > { { > { Greetings. I plan to upload the following draft agenda for Dublin { > { today. There are a few presentations that may be added at the end, { > time { > { permitting. { > { { > { Please send comments to the list. { > { { > { { > { Regards, { > { { > { // Steve { > _______________________________________________ { > PCN mailing list { > PCN@ietf.org { > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn { > { { -- { Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor { University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science { Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 { phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 { mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de { http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 07:24:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10BF3A6928; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:24:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355723A6928 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:24:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1+ol-JzryQ6W for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7C33A6913 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2B6A05CF; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:25:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0145AA05CE; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:25:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F79F198E3F; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:25:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <487E047C.7060106@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:23:56 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C0@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C0@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > Michael, > Sure, hopefully already got your suggestion > > 2.5. Excess traffic meter function > ... > If the token bucket is within an MTU of being empty, then > the meter SHOULD indicate to the Marking function that the packet is > to be excess-traffic-marked; MTU means the maximum size of PCN- > packets on the link. Otherwise the meter does not indicate marking. > This achieves packet-size independent marking. The addition of this sentence would be good to tell the reader why this is done. I indeed overlooked this paragraph. > And In appendix B.5. Excess traffic metering > Packet size independent marking is specified as a SHOULD in Section > 2.4 ( "If the token bucket is within an MTU of being empty, then the > meter SHOULD indicate to the Marking function that the packet is to > be excess-traffic-marked; MTU means the maximum size of PCN-packets > on the link.") Without it, large packets are more likely to be > excess-traffic-marked than small packets and this means that, with > some edge behaviours, flows with large packets are more likely to be > terminated than flows with small packets > [I-D.draft-briscoe-tsvwg-byte-pkt-mark] [Menth]. > That's ok. Regards, Michael > Ok or need improving? > > Thanks > phil > { -----Original Message----- > { From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de] > { Sent: 16 July 2008 13:55 > { To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R > { Cc: slblake@petri-meat.com; pcn@ietf.org > { Subject: Re: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 > { > { Hi Phil, > { > { there is a requirement for packet-size independent marking > { http://tools.ietf.org/wg/pcn/draft-menth-pcn-emft-00.txt > { which is necessary to achieve fairness for marked flow termination. > { Evidence for its relevance it given in > { > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08 > - > { PCN-MFT.pdf > { I raised this issue already at the last meeting since I think it's a > { useful feature. > { > { Regards, > { > { Michael > { > { philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > { > Hi, > { > > { > I remember at/after the last ietf we had this "consensus question" > { > > { > -----Original Message----- > { > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of > { > Steven Blake > { > Sent: 20 April 2008 18:41 > { > To: pcn > { > Subject: Re: [PCN] Consensus questions: Q4, Q5, and Q6 > { > > { > > { >> Q6: If presented with sufficient evidence in a timely fashion, > would > { >> the PCN wg entertain the option of modifying the interior > router > { >> Excess-Rate marking behavior for the standards-track PCN scheme > { >> > { > (as > { > > { >> described in question 4)? > { >> > { >> > { > > { > The feedback for Q6 was a mixture of abstain and Yes with caveats. > If > { > and when someone wants to propose modifications to the Excess-Rate > { > marking behavior, we can see if there is interest to discuss it on > the > { > list, but I *strongly encourage* that any such discussion needs to > { > happen before the Dublin meeting. > { > > { > ---------------------------------- > { > > { > as far as I know, there've been no proposals. But if I missed them, > then > { > I guess that draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behavior-01 would need more > than > { > 15mins (it captures the Consensus on marking behaviour, ie Questions > 4 & > { > 5) > { > > { > thanks, > { > phil > { > > { > { -----Original Message----- > { > { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of > { > { Steven Blake > { > { Sent: 16 July 2008 12:04 > { > { To: pcn > { > { Subject: [PCN] **DRAFT** PCN wg agenda for IETF 72 > { > { > { > { Greetings. I plan to upload the following draft agenda for Dublin > { > { today. There are a few presentations that may be added at the > end, > { > time > { > { permitting. > { > { > { > { Please send comments to the list. > { > { > { > { > { > { Regards, > { > { > { > { // Steve > { > _______________________________________________ > { > PCN mailing list > { > PCN@ietf.org > { > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > { > > { > { -- > { Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > { University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > { Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > { phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > { mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > { http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 09:36:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAFB28C145; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:36:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6779A28C162 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:36:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.28 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.28 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.319, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqbJs4GtszCg for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88FCC28C12B for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:36:59 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:36:58 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C2@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <48728ABD.5000408@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic Thread-Index: AcjgeSHGHebWAYBaRWKDcFOsTzOxYQG2XXdA From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 16:36:59.0419 (UTC) FILETIME=[2AFE76B0:01C8E762] Subject: Re: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Michael I found this an interesting idea. Although I couldn't follow the draft 100% (could do with more explanation what the pseudocode is trying to do! But it seems right to me). If I get it right, this draft is about edge behaviour (PCN-egress-node) for termination. It's assuming that an operator has only a single codepoint and wants to achieve both PCN adm ctrl & termination, so is using 'single marking' (ie using the Excess traffic meter function of http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt). Anna has already described how edges can do admission control. And how edges can do flow termination, using the approach of the egress measuring the unmarked rate & the ingress the rate being sent (towards this egress) & terminating the difference (Method A). You say that your idea enables an egress to terminate without rate measurements, and so is a variant of the "terminate marked flows" idea. As a WG we have the objective to produce Info RFCs describing edge behaviour. Of course we have lots of possibilities & could try and document several of them, but it would seem most realistic to me to try & do one edge behaviour for admission and one for termination - at least to start with; tackle more after one is done. I think it would be best to choose something that works for 'single marking', including in the case where there's lots of dropping. At the moment, to me the most promising choice for termination is therefore Method A. however, your draft opens up another, interesting, possibility. Quick qus - in your simulations, when you terminate a flow does it instantly cause a reduction in bit rate on the bottleneck link, or do you simulate a RTT? - if there is a RTT, I'd have expected that need to do something similar to EMFT (to avoid over-terminating, only terminate a flow with some random probability) - can you give an intuitive explanation of why there's over-termination if the load on the bottleneck link comes from many ingress-egress-aggregates? I didn't follow your explanation. - when you say "measured rate termination [also] suffers from this", do you mean Method A, or do you mean where the egress measures the rate of marked traffic & terminates that. (the two should be equivalent, if there's no dropping in the domain) - have you studied the impact of dropping on this? (I assume it'll be similar to EMFT, where it just slows down the rate at which the PCN-domain goes from overload to being OK)) thanks phil { -----Original Message----- { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { Michael Menth { Sent: 07 July 2008 22:30 { To: pcn { Subject: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic { { Hi, { { we recently submitted a mechanism that converts PCN markings obtained { based on an admissible rate (PCN lower rate) to equivalent PCN markings { based on a supportable rate (PCN upper rate). This mechanism might be { useful to implement marked flow termination with single marking, i.e. { when only excess marked packets based on the admissible rate are { available but excess marked packets based on the supportable rate are { required. The mechanism is described in { http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-marking-converter- { 00.txt { { Early simulation results show that the mechanism work somehow, but it { has its limitations especially when many small ingress-egress-aggregates { share a single link which is a realistic case. A summary of these { results is given in Section 8 of { http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-performance-03.txt { { Regards, { { Michael { { -- { Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor { University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science { Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 { phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 { mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de { http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn { { _______________________________________________ { PCN mailing list { PCN@ietf.org { https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 10:02:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB8C28C111; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A0C3A68CB for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:02:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.467, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_ASCII0=1.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sC3vgESDi-Px for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3403A682B for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:03:02 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:03:01 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsA== From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 17:03:02.0942 (UTC) FILETIME=[CEED23E0:01C8E765] Subject: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0613060125==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0613060125== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8E765.CE588EE7" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E765.CE588EE7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 Would like this draft to be WG doc towards WG milestone on marking behaviour. Think there are actually only a few minor issues to clear up, ie doc is nearly done]. So am trying to clear them up before ietf. Have separated each Issue into a separate email. They're mainly prompted by Joe's comments. =20 This is 1st of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 Do we suggest downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action or not? (traffic conditioning on all links in PCN-domain, including on PCN-ingress-node - where something special /different might be done). =20 Currently the draft says "if needed, then drop or downgrade pkts" (ie downgrade to a lower priority behaviour aggregate) As joe points out: - the danger of downgrading is that pkts in a flow could get mis-ordered. So there's an argument for not giving this as a possibility. Or should downgrading be allowed as a possibility, but just mention the danger? what's done in real diffserv /mpls networks today? - an additional possible traffic conditioning action by the PCN-ingress-node is to downgrade a *flow* (ie all pkts in a flow put into lower BA). This seems a good thing to add to me.=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E765.CE588EE7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

Would like this draft to be WG doc towards WG = milestone on marking behaviour. Think there are actually only a few minor issues to = clear up, ie doc is nearly done]. So am trying to clear them up before = ietf.

Have separated each Issue into a separate email. = They’re mainly prompted by Joe’s comments.

 

This is 1st of several = emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

 

Do we suggest downgrading as a = possible traffic conditioning action or not? (traffic conditioning on all links in = PCN-domain, including on PCN-ingress-node – where something special /different = might be done).

 

Currently the draft says “if needed, = then drop or downgrade pkts” (ie downgrade to a lower priority behaviour = aggregate)

As joe points out:

- the danger of downgrading is that pkts in a = flow could get mis-ordered. So there’s an argument for not giving this = as a possibility. Or should downgrading be allowed as a possibility, but just mention the danger? what’s done in real diffserv /mpls networks = today?

- an additional possible traffic conditioning = action by the PCN-ingress-node is to downgrade a *flow* (ie all pkts in a flow put into lower BA). This seems a good thing to = add to me.

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E765.CE588EE7-- --===============0613060125== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============0613060125==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 10:09:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330B328C170; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:09:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F9C28C170 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9D2X15UjXWSZ for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E7228C17B for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.70]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:09:47 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.196.177]) by i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:09:47 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 1216228186300; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:09:46 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.7.246]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6GH9dns031129; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:09:44 +0100 Message-Id: <200807161709.m6GH9dns031129@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:09:38 +0100 To: "MONCASTER, Toby" From: Bob Briscoe Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 17:09:47.0186 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFDFE120:01C8E766] Cc: PCN IETF list Subject: [PCN] Typos in abstract of draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Toby, Noticed nits in the abstract... >Pre-congestion notification (PCN) is a mechanism designed to protect >the Quality of Service of inelastic flows. It does this by marking >packets when traffic load on a link is approaching or has exceeded a >threshold below the physical link rate. This s/This/The PCN/ >baseline encoding >specified how two encoding Delete 'encoding' >states could be encoded into the IP >header. This document specified s/specified/specifies/ >an extension to the baseline >encoding that enables three encoding states to be carried in the IP >header as well as enabling limited support for end-to-end ECN. Bob ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 645196 _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 10:26:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8AFC3A698C; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:26:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CEF3A68A1 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:26:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.420, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_ASCII0=1.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2SqPD5caAEDB for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593023A6A32 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:26:51 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:26:50 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAw From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 17:26:51.0663 (UTC) FILETIME=[2282A9F0:01C8E769] Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1155413262==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1155413262== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8E769.21EFB767" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E769.21EFB767 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2nd of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 it's clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how about PCN-interior-nodes?=20 So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or MAY? =20 Why is traffic conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes? Because the traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest it). However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring there's always some capacity for lower priority traffic). Also, if only two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might choose to just do admission control. Flow termination would then rely on some other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate their flows because the perceived qos is bad). =20 So MAY seems too weak to me.=20 =20 SHOULD means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item" So that seems ok to me.=20 =20 Comments? Phil/ =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E769.21EFB767 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2nd of several emails = to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

 

it’s clear the = PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how about = PCN-interior-nodes?

So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or = MAY?

 

Why is traffic conditioning needed = on PCN-interior-nodes?

Because the traffic pattern might = be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest = it).

However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly bring the = amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so = perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower = priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above which = pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring there’s always = some capacity for lower priority traffic).  Also, if only two encoding = states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might = choose to just do admission control. Flow termination would then rely on some = other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate their flows = because the perceived qos is bad).

 

So MAY seems too weak to me. =

 

SHOULD means “that =
there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a =
particular item”
So that =
seems ok to me. 
 
Comments?
Phil/

 

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E769.21EFB767-- --===============1155413262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============1155413262==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 10:33:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985B83A6844; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:33:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E473A6844 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:33:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.382, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_ASCII0=1.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7J9uIyHpYZa6 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77EE63A67EB for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:33:35 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:33:34 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C5@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAwAADYS5A= From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 17:33:35.0727 (UTC) FILETIME=[1359EFF0:01C8E76A] Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0289350539==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0289350539== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8E76A.12CF8227" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E76A.12CF8227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, pushed send too quick, one more point added in-line =20 -----Original Message----- From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: 16 July 2008 18:27 To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =20 2nd of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 it's clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how about PCN-interior-nodes?=20 So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or MAY? =20 Why is traffic conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes? Because the traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest it). However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring there's always some capacity for lower priority traffic). Also, if only two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might choose to just do admission control. Flow termination would then rely on some other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate their flows because the perceived qos is bad). =20 [phil] also: Another reason that each PCN-node needs to police non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP (see baseline encoding draft). Otherwise the non-PCN-traffic could break the PCN admission control. Of course an operator might know that it never has any such traffic.=20 =20 So MAY seems too weak to me.=20 =20 SHOULD means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item" So that seems ok to me.=20 =20 Comments? Phil/ =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E76A.12CF8227 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry, pushed send too quick, one = more point added in-line

 

-----Original Message-----
From: = pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: 16 July 2008 = 18:27
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

 

2nd of several emails = to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

 

it’s clear the = PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how about = PCN-interior-nodes?

So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or = MAY?

 

Why is traffic conditioning needed = on PCN-interior-nodes?

Because the traffic pattern might = be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest = it).

However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly bring the = amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so = perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower = priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above which = pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring there’s always = some capacity for lower priority traffic).  Also, if only two encoding = states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might = choose to just do admission control. Flow termination would then rely on some = other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate their flows = because the perceived qos is bad).

 

[phil] also: Another reason that = each PCN-node needs to police non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP (see = baseline encoding draft). Otherwise the non-PCN-traffic could break the PCN = admission control. Of course an operator might know that it never has any such = traffic.

 

So MAY seems too weak to me. =

 

SHOULD means “that =
there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a =
particular item”
So that =
seems ok to me. 
 
Comments?
Phil/

 

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E76A.12CF8227-- --===============0289350539== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============0289350539==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 10:47:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B99928C12B; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:47:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399153A6A50 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:47:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.350, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_ASCII0=1.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54FpRL6KNHGn for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED953A6A62 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:47:26 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:47:25 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C6@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAwAAED+gA= From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 17:47:26.0504 (UTC) FILETIME=[02887280:01C8E76C] Subject: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1261497781==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1261497781== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8E76C.01EEBD47" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E76C.01EEBD47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3rd (& last - phew) of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 the baseline encoding draft envisages that there may be non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP as PCN traffic. Question is whether we assume that PCN-interior-nodes will treat these two sorts of traffic the same as regards scheduling priority, or whether it's possible they might not be? =20 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.txt says: o The scheduling behaviour is coupled with the DSCP only. Therefore, the same scheduling and buffer management rules are applied for non-PCN-capable and PCN-capable traffic using the same PCN-enabled DSCP. =20 This seems very reasonable to me.=20 However, since a PCN-interior-node has to classify (distinguish) PCN-pkts from non-PCN ones with the same DSCP (done by examining the ECN field) - therefore it would in theory be possible to schedule them differently. =20 Also, I guess that "the same buffer management rules" means that when it comes to traffic conditioning (policing) on PCN-interior-nodes, then the PCN-pkts and non-PCN pkts (sharing the same DSCP) will also be treated the same. Again, this seems very reasonable to me. =20 =20 Comments? Thanks, Phil/ =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E76C.01EEBD47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

3rd (& last - = phew) of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

 

the baseline encoding draft envisages that there may be =
non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP as PCN traffic. Question is =
whether we assume that PCN-interior-nodes will treat these two sorts of =
traffic the same as regards scheduling priority, or whether it’s =
possible they might not be?
      =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;   
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.t=
xt says:
   o  The scheduling behaviour =
is coupled with the DSCP only.
      Therefore, the =
same scheduling and buffer management rules =
are
      applied for =
non-PCN-capable and PCN-capable traffic using the =
same
      PCN-enabled =
DSCP.
 
This seems very reasonable to me. =

However, since a PCN-interior-node has to classify =
(distinguish) PCN-pkts from non-PCN ones with the same DSCP (done by =
examining the ECN field) – therefore it would in theory be =
possible to schedule them differently.
 
Also, I guess =
that “the same buffer management rules” means that when it =
comes to traffic conditioning (policing) on PCN-interior-nodes, then the =
PCN-pkts and non-PCN pkts (sharing the same DSCP) will also be treated =
the same. Again, this seems very reasonable to =
me.
 
 
Comments?
Thanks,
Phil/

 

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8E76C.01EEBD47-- --===============1261497781== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============1261497781==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 11:20:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674E128C1CB; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:20:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A33128C1CB for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:20:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BhKLh0xZXHXP for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.smtp.bt.com (smtp4.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.151]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81ADF28C1C5 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.70]) by smtp4.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:20:25 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.196.177]) by i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:20:23 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 121623242335; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:20:23 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.7.246]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6GIKGLh002798; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:20:21 +0100 Message-Id: <200807161820.m6GIKGLh002798@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:20:15 +0100 To: "MONCASTER, Toby" From: Bob Briscoe Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2008 18:20:23.0899 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D26FAB0:01C8E770] Cc: PCN IETF list Subject: [PCN] Second thoughts on detail in draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Toby, Commenting on my own draft to the list... Section 4: Encoding two PCN States in IP ---------------------------------------- >Any packet that belongs to a PCN capable flow MUST have the ECN >field set to one of the two ECT codepoints 10 or 01 at the PCN-ingress-node. Delete 'or 01' Reasoning: By saying either 10 or 01 it limits future flexibility. It would allow a future use of ECT(1) if we made up our minds and specified the PCN ingress must only set ECT(0). And a terminology nit: >The PCN encoding states are defined using the Type of Service field >of the IP header which is a combination of the DSCP field and ECN field. Change to: 'The PCN encoding states are defined using a combination of the Differentiated Services field and ECN field.' Reasoning: When RFC2780 split the TOS field into the DS field and the ECN field, I don't think it intended the pair of fields to still be called the TOS field. It would be safer to just use 'modern' terminology. Appendix A. Tunnelling Constraints ---------------------------------- I think we should refer to draft-briscoe-tsvwg-ecn-tunnel-01.txt from the last para of this appendix, saying we're trying to fix this problem so PCN doesn't have to be an exception. When I introduced the -00 version to tsvwg a year ago, it attracted general support (Sally Floyd, David Black etc), as it makes all IP in IP tunnelling consistent with what IPsec now does since RFC4301. I agreed with the Transport Area Directors' request to hold this ecn-tunnel draft back for a year - until it was clearer what the PCN wire encoding would be. So I've just posted -01, as I think PCN encodign is now converging. Pls comment on tsvwg about ecn-tunnel (support please!), cross-posting to PCN if relevant. Appendix B. ---------- I've lost touch with what the proper PCN terminology is, but this appendix seems to be inconsistent. Ignore me if I'm wrong. Bob ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 645196 _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 16 12:28:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238583A688F; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:28:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2293A683C for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:27:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-Qkv-3-Eo2C for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677643A68FD for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F61D198E49; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:28:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B4A198E48; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:28:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [92.227.28.43] (g227028043.adsl.alicedsl.de [92.227.28.43]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00CA8198E3F; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:28:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <487E4B94.5020400@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:27:16 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C2@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C2@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > Michael > > I found this an interesting idea. Although I couldn't follow the draft > 100% (could do with more explanation what the pseudocode is trying to > do! But it seems right to me). > > If I get it right, this draft is about edge behaviour (PCN-egress-node) > for termination. It's assuming that an operator has only a single > codepoint and wants to achieve both PCN adm ctrl & termination, so is > using 'single marking' (ie using the Excess traffic meter function of > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt). > The limitation "only a single DSCP is available for PCN marking" does not mean that only one marking scheme can be applied. The encoding scheme in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-psdm-encoding-00.txt uses only one DSCP for PCN marking and supports concurrent excess and exhaustive marking such that probe-based admission control can be based on exhaustive marking (with admissible rate as reference rate) and flow termination can be based on excess marking (with supportable rate as reference rate). > Anna has already described how edges can do admission control. And how > edges can do flow termination, using the approach of the egress > measuring the unmarked rate & the ingress the rate being sent (towards > this egress) & terminating the difference (Method A). > > You say that your idea enables an egress to terminate without rate > measurements, and so is a variant of the "terminate marked flows" idea. > > > As a WG we have the objective to produce Info RFCs describing edge > behaviour. Of course we have lots of possibilities & could try and > document several of them, but it would seem most realistic to me to try > & do one edge behaviour for admission and one for termination - at least > to start with; tackle more after one is done. > I think it would be best to choose something that works for 'single > marking', including in the case where there's lots of dropping. At the > moment, to me the most promising choice for termination is therefore > Method A. however, your draft opens up another, interesting, > possibility. > > Quick qus > - in your simulations, when you terminate a flow does it instantly cause > a reduction in bit rate on the bottleneck link, or do you simulate a > RTT? > We assume that a flow stops sending packets D_T time after the egress node decides that it should be terminated. We set D_T=200 ms, so it's in the order of an RTT. > - if there is a RTT, I'd have expected that need to do something similar > to EMFT (to avoid over-terminating, only terminate a flow with some > random probability) > Yes. EMFT is used for termination. > - can you give an intuitive explanation of why there's over-termination > if the load on the bottleneck link comes from many > ingress-egress-aggregates? I didn't follow your explanation. > Assume that there is no supportable rate (SR) pre-congestion, but (AR) pre-congestion. Then a certain amount of traffic is excess-marked. If the fraction of marked traffic is larger for a first aggregate and smaller for a second aggregate, the first aggregate will see marked packets even after conversion and hence flows will be terminated. This is why overtermination occurs. This happens more easily if the number of aggregates on a link is large because then packet markings within a aggregates become more random, i.e. they are not spaced in more or less regular intervals. > - when you say "measured rate termination [also] suffers from this", do > you mean Method A, or do you mean where the egress measures the rate of > marked traffic & terminates that. (the two should be equivalent, if > there's no dropping in the domain) > I mean method A. > - have you studied the impact of dropping on this? (I assume it'll be > similar to EMFT, where it just slows down the rate at which the > PCN-domain goes from overload to being OK)) > No, we have not looked at it. Some additional comments. From our simulations we have seen that marked flow termination based on converted markings has limitations such that I don't see it as a significant improvement compared to Single Marking. It might work better with multipath routing, but also not 100% correctly. Regards, Michael > > thanks > phil > > { -----Original Message----- > { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > { Michael Menth > { Sent: 07 July 2008 22:30 > { To: pcn > { Subject: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic > { > { Hi, > { > { we recently submitted a mechanism that converts PCN markings obtained > { based on an admissible rate (PCN lower rate) to equivalent PCN > markings > { based on a supportable rate (PCN upper rate). This mechanism might be > { useful to implement marked flow termination with single marking, i.e. > { when only excess marked packets based on the admissible rate are > { available but excess marked packets based on the supportable rate are > { required. The mechanism is described in > { http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-marking-converter- > { 00.txt > { > { Early simulation results show that the mechanism work somehow, but it > { has its limitations especially when many small > ingress-egress-aggregates > { share a single link which is a realistic case. A summary of these > { results is given in Section 8 of > { http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-menth-pcn-performance-03.txt > { > { Regards, > { > { Michael > { > { -- > { Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > { University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > { Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > { phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > { mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > { http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > { > { _______________________________________________ > { PCN mailing list > { PCN@ietf.org > { https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 04:32:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F463A6921; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CA43A691F for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:32:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rRBGQogPkuYB for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE5D3A6921 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.71]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:33:19 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.100.81]) by i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:33:19 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 1216294397809; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:33:17 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.81.228]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6HBX7o9017690; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:33:16 +0100 Message-Id: <200807171133.m6HBX7o9017690@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:33:06 +0100 To: From: Bob Briscoe In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8AD@E03MVB1-UKBR.doma in1.systemhost.net> References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8A8@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8AD@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2008 11:33:19.0085 (UTC) FILETIME=[E93DE1D0:01C8E800] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Phil, THanks for updating the arch. Looks good. Below are some suggested minor corrections. In general, there's less uncertainty, which is good. Some of the points below open up possibilities for future variation just a little, where I think we don't need to be so prescriptive. [Next mail, I'll re-open the only slightly controversial issue I believe is left.] >4. Deployment scenarios >{...} >I is possible that a user wants its inelastic traffic to use the PCN >based on defined rules, in reaction to pre-congestion. mechanisms >but also react to ECN marking outside the PCN-domain >[I-D.sarker-pcn-ecn-pcn-usecases]. Two ways to do this are to tunnel >all PCN-packets across the PCN-domain, so that the ECN marks is >carried transparently across the PCN-domain, or to use the three >state PCN encoding [I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding]. This is >discussed further in Section Section 7. s/Two ways/Two possible ways/ {Removes ambiguity of intent. Making it clear this doesn't mean these are the two recommended ways, or the only two allowed ways.} s/This is discussed further in Section Section 7 /This is discussed further in Section 7.1 on Tunnelling/ >4. Deployment scenarios >{...} >The possibility of deploying just one of PCN's flow admission and > termination mechanisms is certainly an option when only two PCN > encoding states are available s/when only two PCN encoding states are available /when an operator chooses to use up only two encoding states for PCN/ >5.2. Assumption 2: Real-time applications {...} >As a consequence, it is assumed that PCN-marking is being applied to >traffic scheduled with the expedited forwarding per-hop behaviour, >[RFC3246], or traffic with similar characteristics. s/traffic with/a PHB with/ >6. High-level functional architecture >{...} > the operator may have two or three encoding states > available. In both cases the ECN field is set to 11 to indicate PCN- > marking. In the former case, one DSCP is used. In the latter case a > second DSCP is used, > Suggested new text: ...the operator may *choose to use* two or three encoding states. With current tunnelling behaviour (RFC3168 or RFC4301), only the CE (11) codepoint of the ECN field survives decapsulation. So the ECN field *can currently only be* set to 11 to indicate PCN-marking. For the two-state case, one DSCP can be used. For the three-state case a second DSCP seems necessary, Reasoning: I think the text as written was too prescriptive for an architecture document. If one day we get the unnecessarily restrictive ECN tunnelling behaviour changed we would then be able to use 01 and 10 as well. Then we won't need to only be restricted to 11 If we can fully work out how at least some of [ID.menth-pcn-psdm-encoding] could be standardised, we ought to mention that here too. Or at least allow for some post-standards innovation in this space. >Flow admission and flow termination when there are only two PCN >encoding states{...} >If a PCN-domain has only two encoding states available {...} Suggested new text: If an operator chooses to use only two PCN encoding states {...} >6.5. PCN-traffic >{...} > However, a PCN-node should dedicate some capacity to lower > priority traffic so that it isn't starved. Such traffic doesn't > contribute to the PCN meters. Suggest we add: (however, there are valid proposals where some does [Songhurst]) Bob At 10:02 15/07/2008, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: >I spotted a couple of small corrections needed: > >In S6.2, Flow termination >Exactly how the flow termination decision is made will be defined > separately in informational documents. At a high level several > approaches are proposed: >... > o Another approach monitors PCN-packets and terminates any PCN-flow > with an excess-traffic-marked packet. Compared with the > approaches above, PCN-marking needs to be done at a reduced rate > (every "s" bytes of excess traffic) otherwise far too much traffic > would be terminated. > >This bullet needs to be changed, as it's inconsistent with the consensus >decisions about marking algorithm. The equivalent approach can be >achieved by randomly selecting some fraction of the marked packets for >termination (as in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-menth-pcn-emft-00.txt) > >In S2 Terminology >The last sentence of both PCN-threshold-rate & PCN-excess-rate >definitions needs to be deleted (they don't apply in the single marking >case). > >In addition I think it would be helpful to add a couple of pics to >illustrate what PCN-threshold-rate & PCN-excess-rate mean in terms of >when admission and termination are done. Similar to Fig 1 in >http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08 >-PCN-Comparison.pdf - one for the case with 3 encoding states, and one >for single marking. > >phil > >{ -----Original Message----- >{ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >{ philip.eardley@bt.com >{ Sent: 15 July 2008 08:31 >{ To: pcn@ietf.org >{ Subject: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ >{ I updated the Architecture draft. >{ >{ There are no major changes, but several more minor ones. These mostly >{ reflect the consensus call about PCN-marking (as reflected in >{ [I-D.eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour]), and the current decisions about >{ encoding (as reflected in [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding] and >{ [I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding]). I also did some slight >{ re-structuring and editing to try and improve the clarity, especially >of >{ the introductory material and the High level architecture (where I >also >{ added a sub-section on backwards compatibility with respect to >{ [RFC4774]). I also took account of all the comments received on the >-03 >{ version (thanks for them) >{ >{ Comments welcome! - thanks, >{ phil >{ >{ { -----Original Message----- >{ { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >Of >{ { Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >{ { Sent: 14 July 2008 23:00 >{ { To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >{ { Cc: pcn@ietf.org >{ { Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ { >{ { A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >{ { directories. >{ { This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion >{ { Notification Working Group of the IETF. >{ { >{ { >{ { Title : Pre-Congestion Notification Architecture >{ { Author(s) : P. Eardley >{ { Filename : draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ { Pages : 52 >{ { Date : 2008-07-14 >{ { >{ { The purpose of this document is to describe a general architecture >{ { for flow admission and termination based on pre-congestion >{ { information in order to protect the quality of service of >established >{ { inelastic flows within a single DiffServ domain.Status >{ { >{ { A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >{ { >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ { >{ { Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >{ { ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >{ { >{ { Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >{ { implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >{ { Internet-Draft. >{ _______________________________________________ >{ PCN mailing list >{ PCN@ietf.org >{ https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn >_______________________________________________ >PCN mailing list >PCN@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 645196 _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 04:49:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F8C3A6A84; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:49:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0057E3A6A84 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:49:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.173, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cJmPHAaNWxFS for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCC23A6A9B for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:49:36 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:49:34 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8CD@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <200807171133.m6HBX7o9017690@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt Thread-Index: AcjoAOkVzV6bMCyIThGoJBujoxOF0wAAg4/g From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2008 11:49:36.0916 (UTC) FILETIME=[30130D40:01C8E803] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thanks bob, I'll work these in the -05 version. I think it best to avoid discussing tunnelling at the start of S6, but I'll get in the sentiment of your comment. phil { -----Original Message----- { From: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,XVR9 BRISCORJ R { Sent: 17 July 2008 12:33 { To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R { Cc: pcn@ietf.org { Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { { Phil, { { THanks for updating the arch. Looks good. { { Below are some suggested minor corrections. In general, there's less { uncertainty, which is good. Some of the points below open up { possibilities for future variation just a little, where I think we { don't need to be so prescriptive. { { [Next mail, I'll re-open the only slightly controversial issue I { believe is left.] { { { >4. Deployment scenarios { >{...} { >I is possible that a user wants its inelastic traffic to use the PCN { >based on defined rules, in reaction to pre-congestion. mechanisms { >but also react to ECN marking outside the PCN-domain { >[I-D.sarker-pcn-ecn-pcn-usecases]. Two ways to do this are to tunnel { >all PCN-packets across the PCN-domain, so that the ECN marks is { >carried transparently across the PCN-domain, or to use the three { >state PCN encoding [I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding]. This is { >discussed further in Section Section 7. { { s/Two ways/Two possible ways/ { {Removes ambiguity of intent. Making it clear this doesn't mean these { are the two recommended ways, or the only two allowed ways.} { { s/This is discussed further in Section Section 7 { /This is discussed further in Section 7.1 on Tunnelling/ { { { >4. Deployment scenarios { >{...} { >The possibility of deploying just one of PCN's flow admission and { > termination mechanisms is certainly an option when only two PCN { > encoding states are available { { s/when only two PCN encoding states are available { /when an operator chooses to use up only two encoding states for PCN/ { { >5.2. Assumption 2: Real-time applications {...} { >As a consequence, it is assumed that PCN-marking is being applied to { >traffic scheduled with the expedited forwarding per-hop behaviour, { >[RFC3246], or traffic with similar characteristics. { { s/traffic with/a PHB with/ { { { >6. High-level functional architecture { >{...} { > the operator may have two or three encoding states { > available. In both cases the ECN field is set to 11 to indicate PCN- { > marking. In the former case, one DSCP is used. In the latter case a { > second DSCP is used, { > { { Suggested new text: { ...the operator may *choose to use* two or three encoding states. { With current tunnelling behaviour (RFC3168 or RFC4301), only the CE { (11) codepoint of the ECN field survives decapsulation. So the ECN { field *can currently only be* set to 11 to indicate PCN-marking. For { the two-state case, one DSCP can be used. For the three-state case a { second DSCP seems necessary, { { Reasoning: I think the text as written was too prescriptive for an { architecture document. If one day we get the unnecessarily { restrictive ECN tunnelling behaviour changed we would then be able to { use 01 and 10 as well. Then we won't need to only be restricted to 11 { { If we can fully work out how at least some of { [ID.menth-pcn-psdm-encoding] could be standardised, we ought to { mention that here too. Or at least allow for some post-standards { innovation in this space. { { >Flow admission and flow termination when there are only two PCN { >encoding states{...} { >If a PCN-domain has only two encoding states available {...} { { Suggested new text: { If an operator chooses to use only two PCN encoding states {...} { { >6.5. PCN-traffic { >{...} { > However, a PCN-node should dedicate some capacity to lower { > priority traffic so that it isn't starved. Such traffic doesn't { > contribute to the PCN meters. { Suggest we add: (however, there are valid proposals where some does { [Songhurst]) { { { { Bob { { At 10:02 15/07/2008, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: { >I spotted a couple of small corrections needed: { > { >In S6.2, Flow termination { >Exactly how the flow termination decision is made will be defined { > separately in informational documents. At a high level several { > approaches are proposed: { >... { > o Another approach monitors PCN-packets and terminates any PCN-flow { > with an excess-traffic-marked packet. Compared with the { > approaches above, PCN-marking needs to be done at a reduced rate { > (every "s" bytes of excess traffic) otherwise far too much traffic { > would be terminated. { > { >This bullet needs to be changed, as it's inconsistent with the consensus { >decisions about marking algorithm. The equivalent approach can be { >achieved by randomly selecting some fraction of the marked packets for { >termination (as in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-menth-pcn-emft-00.txt) { > { >In S2 Terminology { >The last sentence of both PCN-threshold-rate & PCN-excess-rate { >definitions needs to be deleted (they don't apply in the single marking { >case). { > { >In addition I think it would be helpful to add a couple of pics to { >illustrate what PCN-threshold-rate & PCN-excess-rate mean in terms of { >when admission and termination are done. Similar to Fig 1 in { >http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth0 8 { >-PCN-Comparison.pdf - one for the case with 3 encoding states, and one { >for single marking. { > { >phil { > { >{ -----Original Message----- { >{ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of { >{ philip.eardley@bt.com { >{ Sent: 15 July 2008 08:31 { >{ To: pcn@ietf.org { >{ Subject: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { >{ { >{ I updated the Architecture draft. { >{ { >{ There are no major changes, but several more minor ones. These mostly { >{ reflect the consensus call about PCN-marking (as reflected in { >{ [I-D.eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour]), and the current decisions about { >{ encoding (as reflected in [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding] and { >{ [I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding]). I also did some slight { >{ re-structuring and editing to try and improve the clarity, especially { >of { >{ the introductory material and the High level architecture (where I { >also { >{ added a sub-section on backwards compatibility with respect to { >{ [RFC4774]). I also took account of all the comments received on the { >-03 { >{ version (thanks for them) { >{ { >{ Comments welcome! - thanks, { >{ phil { >{ { >{ { -----Original Message----- { >{ { From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf { >Of { >{ { Internet-Drafts@ietf.org { >{ { Sent: 14 July 2008 23:00 { >{ { To: i-d-announce@ietf.org { >{ { Cc: pcn@ietf.org { >{ { Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { >{ { { >{ { A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts { >{ { directories. { >{ { This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion { >{ { Notification Working Group of the IETF. { >{ { { >{ { { >{ { Title : Pre-Congestion Notification Architecture { >{ { Author(s) : P. Eardley { >{ { Filename : draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { >{ { Pages : 52 { >{ { Date : 2008-07-14 { >{ { { >{ { The purpose of this document is to describe a general architecture { >{ { for flow admission and termination based on pre-congestion { >{ { information in order to protect the quality of service of { >established { >{ { inelastic flows within a single DiffServ domain.Status { >{ { { >{ { A URL for this Internet-Draft is: { >{ { { >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt { >{ { { >{ { Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: { >{ { ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ { >{ { { >{ { Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader { >{ { implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the { >{ { Internet-Draft. { >{ _______________________________________________ { >{ PCN mailing list { >{ PCN@ietf.org { >{ https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn { >_______________________________________________ { >PCN mailing list { >PCN@ietf.org { >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn { { ________________________________________________________________________ __ { __ { Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT { Research { B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 { 645196 { _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 06:08:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4853A69F0; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69883A6902 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:08:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.16 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.16 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8G6J3u7H-eaT for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA7DF3A69F0 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.109]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:08:46 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:08:45 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8CF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <487E4B94.5020400@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic Thread-Index: AcjneiCT/iSMxkyNSre/Ps+B2ALFKAAk9lVQ From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2008 13:08:46.0336 (UTC) FILETIME=[3EF30800:01C8E80E] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org { { > - can you give an intuitive explanation of why there's over-termination { > if the load on the bottleneck link comes from many { > ingress-egress-aggregates? I didn't follow your explanation. { > { Assume that there is no supportable rate (SR) pre-congestion, but (AR) { pre-congestion. Then a certain amount of traffic is excess-marked. If { the fraction of marked traffic is larger for a first aggregate and { smaller for a second aggregate, the first aggregate will see marked { packets even after conversion and hence flows will be terminated. This { is why overtermination occurs. This happens more easily if the number of { aggregates on a link is large because then packet markings within a { aggregates become more random, i.e. they are not spaced in more or less { regular intervals. { does the over-termination get solved if you slow down the termination a bit? (ie EMFT has lower probability of terminating a (Converted) marked flow) thanks [phil _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 08:48:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3733A6951; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:48:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6253A6968 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:48:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m6sPDWY6dspa for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072853A690C for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0E1198E97; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:49:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419EF198E89; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:49:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1314BA06EB; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:49:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <487F69AF.4000906@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:47:59 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8CF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8CF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Marking Converter for Excess-Marked Traffic X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, good question. I believe not because the reason for overtermination is different. But we take it as a hint for further studies. The findings of our quick simulations tell us it's a nice idea that has its drawbacks under challenging conditions. It might be useful under some circumstances, but we need to find out what they are. Regards, Michael philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > { > { > - can you give an intuitive explanation of why there's > over-termination > { > if the load on the bottleneck link comes from many > { > ingress-egress-aggregates? I didn't follow your explanation. > { > > { Assume that there is no supportable rate (SR) pre-congestion, but > (AR) > { pre-congestion. Then a certain amount of traffic is excess-marked. If > { the fraction of marked traffic is larger for a first aggregate and > { smaller for a second aggregate, the first aggregate will see marked > { packets even after conversion and hence flows will be terminated. > This > { is why overtermination occurs. This happens more easily if the number > of > { aggregates on a link is large because then packet markings within a > { aggregates become more random, i.e. they are not spaced in more or > less > { regular intervals. > { > does the over-termination get solved if you slow down the termination a > bit? (ie EMFT has lower probability of terminating a (Converted) marked > flow) > > thanks > [phil > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 11:13:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF743A6998; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:13:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C5D3A6AAE for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:13:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dbrdnFmnneIb for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8ED3A6998 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.71]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:13:27 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.100.81]) by i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:13:27 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 1216318406171; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:13:26 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.81.228]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6HIDEbf009545; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:13:25 +0100 Message-Id: <200807171813.m6HIDEbf009545@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:13:11 +0100 To: From: Bob Briscoe In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8D0@E03MVB1-UKBR.doma in1.systemhost.net> References: <200807171155.m6HBsvxS019143@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8D0@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2008 18:13:27.0438 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF55D2E0:01C8E838] Cc: PCN IETF list Subject: Re: [PCN] Natural decision point? draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Phil, [I've cc'd PCN again in case the list server or BT's mail relay catch up some time.] The issue is this: - if the ingress can override the decision of the egress, it's best to accept that the ingress is actually making the decision. The ingress will have to tell the egress what it has decided (to tear down path state and receiver state etc). So, we should be wary of any implication that the egress is making the decision, otherwise a signalling design that says the egress signals its decision to the ingress will look valid. When in fact a second pass is needed. This is an unavoidable consequence of spreading the admission control decision over a distributed system (PCN domain) rather than keeping it hop-by-hop like Intserv. The MBAC phase involves packets crossing the domain, then feedback coming back (in parallel to the signalling which continues to the destination and comes back). Then, when the e2e signalling returns to the PEP (ingress) if it has decided to block, its decision has to be signalled upstream and downstream to tear down the reservation. There are many variants, with different optimistic/pessimistic models, but this is the basic one (IMHO). Bob At 14:10 17/07/2008, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: >Bob > >[only replying to you, as only got your msg directly, not sure if you >intended to only send to me, if pcn ML server is slow, or spam filter is >blocking again] > >The text in architecture doc: >Egress tells ingress the "admit /block" decision. >Ingress goes with this decision. >This is what the architecture doc currently says is 'most natural' (nb >it doesn't say this is the only option!) > >Another option: >Egress tells ingress the CLE. >Ingress makes the decision. Now the ingress can decide what the >CLE-threshold is (threshold for admit /block decision). Speculatively >this might have an advantage where you want to prioritise the admission >of various classes of users differently. (NB not talking about emergency >etc calls, which will be admitted differently anyway.) I suspect in >practive this is pretty marginal. > >Your scenario: >Multi-domain. Ingress will get charged for traffic it admits (by >downstream networks) so wants control over decision. This is still >possible in either of the cases above - in either, the msg from the >egress is treated as advice, eg even if the egress says "admit" the >ingress might choose to block the new call. > >So would your issue be solved if I leave the current text & add some >text to the effect that the ingress is the PEP so has ultimate control? >And in the Appendix on possible future work, mention the multi-domain as >a scenario where the ingress might want to over-ride what the egress >suggests. > >Thanks >Phil. > >Thanks for the spots of errors in text. S4 should have 'egress' > > >{ -----Original Message----- >{ From: Briscoe,RJ,Bob,XVR9 BRISCORJ R >{ Sent: 17 July 2008 12:54 >{ To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R >{ Subject: Natural decision point? draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04 >{ >{ Phil, >{ >{ Apologies for re-opening this issue (it was previously discussed in >{ Mar '08 under the thread subject "Re: [PCN] >draft-ietf-pcn-architecture- >{ 03" >{ >{ Firstly, There seems to be a contradiction between different parts of >{ the text (quoted at the end). >{ >{ But my main point concerns what 'natural' means in this context. So >{ far the discussion has focussed on efficiency (where information >{ gathers naturally?, which node has to be informed anyway?, etc). >{ >{ However, "Keeping interconnect strongly in mind" [PCN charter], we >{ should try to design protocols allowing for nodes doing what's in >{ their operator's interests rather than what protocol messages from >{ other operators ask them to do. >{ >{ Seen this way, 'natural' means 'the node that has ultimate control >{ anyway, whatever it is asked to do'. I.e. the ingress, which is the >{ only node that can be a policy enforcement point (PEP) [RFC2753]. >{ >{ I think we should point out that the ingress will be the PEP if PCN >{ becomes multi-domain later. Otherwise, if today's single-operator >{ designs give the egress the final decision, the operator might have >{ to change its design when it becomes multi-domain. >{ >{ >{ >4. Deployment scenarios >{ >{...} >{ > For admission control, the most natural place is the PCN-ingress- >{ node. >{ >{ >7.4. Other admission control functions >{ >{...} >{ > o The decision is made at the PCN-egress-node and the decision >{ > (admit or block) is signalled to the PCN-ingress-node. This >seems >{ > most natural. >{ >{ >{ >{ Bob >{ >{ >{ >{ >________________________________________________________________________ >__ >{ __ >{ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT >{ Research >{ B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 >{ 645196 >{ ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 645196 _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 12:17:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120C73A6B39; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:17:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1DA3A6B39 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:16:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.501, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lgfwpx4fsjef for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portland.eukhost.com (portland.eukhost.com [92.48.97.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12793A6AE2 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c-69-255-78-171.hsd1.md.comcast.net ([69.255.78.171]:53705 helo=[192.168.1.120]) by portland.eukhost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KJYyf-0001b9-TT; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:17:22 +0000 Message-Id: From: ken carlberg To: In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:17:24 -0400 References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - portland.eukhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - g11.org.uk Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0671548854==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org --===============0671548854== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5--355640496 --Apple-Mail-5--355640496 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil, > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt > Would like this draft to be WG doc towards WG milestone on marking =20 > behaviour. Think there are actually only a few minor issues to clear =20= > up, ie doc is nearly done]. So am trying to clear them up before ietf. > Have separated each Issue into a separate email. They=92re mainly =20 > prompted by Joe=92s comments. > > This is 1st of several emails to try & close Open Issues on = http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt > > Do we suggest downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action =20= > or not? (traffic conditioning on all links in PCN-domain, including =20= > on PCN-ingress-node =96 where something special /different might be =20= > done). I would like to advocate the position of yes. let's allow for the =20 possibility of downgrading. > Currently the draft says =93if needed, then drop or downgrade =20 > pkts=94 (ie downgrade to a lower priority behaviour aggregate) > As joe points out: > - the danger of downgrading is that pkts in a flow could get mis-=20 > ordered. So there=92s an argument for not giving this as a = possibility. while mis-ordered packets is not a subject to be ignored, the primary =20= concern stems from the degree or variance in which packets (and in =20 particular, packets of a flow) are mis-ordered. wide variations can =20 emulate packet loss -- obviously, a bad thing. but these conditions, =20= as far as i know, mostly come up in outlier scenarios found in mobile =20= nodes crossing admin boundaries and different foreign agents. back in the mid-90's, UCL did some work with packet interweaving =20 (purposely misordered packets) and found that end user quality of =20 audio packets was actually better in the presence of packet loss, =20 since packet drops at congestion points tend to be a bit bursty. =20 point being that a bit of misordering of packets isn't something to be =20= scared of. > Or should downgrading be allowed as a possibility, but just mention =20= > the danger? I'd be comfortable with a note indicating the potential condition of =20 misordering and leave it at that. > what=92s done in real diffserv /mpls networks today? > - an additional possible traffic conditioning action by the PCN-=20 > ingress-node is to downgrade a *flow* (ie all pkts in a flow put =20 > into lower BA). This seems a good thing to add to me. I'd advocate yes. -ken --Apple-Mail-5--355640496 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<= div>I would like to advocate the position of yes.  let's allow for = the possibility of downgrading.
As = joe points out:
- the = danger of downgrading is that pkts in a flow could get mis-ordered. So = there=92s an argument for not giving this as a possibility. =

wh= ile mis-ordered packets is not a subject to be ignored, the primary = concern stems from the degree or variance in which packets (and in = particular, packets of a flow) are mis-ordered.  wide variations = can emulate packet loss -- obviously, a bad thing.  but these = conditions, as far as i know, mostly come up in outlier scenarios found = in mobile nodes crossing admin boundaries and different foreign = agents.

back in the mid-90's, UCL did some work = with packet interweaving (purposely misordered packets) and found that = end user quality of audio packets was actually better in the presence of = packet loss, since packet drops at congestion points tend to be a bit = bursty.  point being that a bit of misordering of packets isn't = something to be scared of.

Or = should downgrading be allowed as a possibility, but just mention the = danger?

= I'd be comfortable with a note indicating the potential condition of = misordering and leave it at that.

= what=92s done in real diffserv /mpls networks = today?
- an = additional possible traffic conditioning action by the PCN-ingress-node = is to downgrade a * X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 287D63A6886; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:22:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910A63A6841 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:22:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vLD08PJBA7d8 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl (rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7541E3A6886 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.cs.utwente.nl (janus.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.26]) by rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id m6KFMeAH011951; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:22:40 +0200 (MEST) Received: from 79.130.143.213 (auth. user karagian@imap1.ewi.utwente.nl) by webmail.cs.utwente.nl with HTTP; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:22:40 +0000 To: "philip.eardley@bt.com" , "pcn@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:22:40 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.13 (On: webmail.cs.utwente.nl) Message-ID: <9frKVWBX.1216567360.0789330.karagian@ewi.utwente.nl> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8A8@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Georgios Karagiannis" Bounce-To: "Georgios Karagiannis" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 130.89.10.5 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0rc3 (rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.5]); Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:22:43 +0200 (MEST) Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil I have read the draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04 and I have seen that there are major changes included. These major changes mainly affect the LC-PCN required features at the interior and egress nodes. I hope that the new version of the PCN architecture draft will include the LC-PCN related features that were included in version 3 of the PCN architecture draft and are removed in version 4 of the PCN architecture draft. Furthermore, I can not see any information about ingress-egress-aggregate (trunl/pipe) model and HOSE model that has been intensivelly discussed during the months after the IETF 71. Best regards, Georgios On 7/15/2008, "philip.eardley@bt.com" wrote: >I updated the Architecture draft. > >There are no major changes, but several more minor ones. These mostly >reflect the consensus call about PCN-marking (as reflected in >[I-D.eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour]), and the current decisions about >encoding (as reflected in [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding] and >[I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding]). I also did some slight >re-structuring and editing to try and improve the clarity, especially of >the introductory material and the High level architecture (where I also >added a sub-section on backwards compatibility with respect to >[RFC4774]). I also took account of all the comments received on the -03 >version (thanks for them) > >Comments welcome! - thanks, >phil > >{ -----Original Message----- >{ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >{ Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >{ Sent: 14 July 2008 23:00 >{ To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >{ Cc: pcn@ietf.org >{ Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ >{ A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >{ directories. >{ This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion >{ Notification Working Group of the IETF. >{ >{ >{ Title : Pre-Congestion Notification Architecture >{ Author(s) : P. Eardley >{ Filename : draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ Pages : 52 >{ Date : 2008-07-14 >{ >{ The purpose of this document is to describe a general architecture >{ for flow admission and termination based on pre-congestion >{ information in order to protect the quality of service of established >{ inelastic flows within a single DiffServ domain.Status >{ >{ A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >{ http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ >{ Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >{ ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >{ >{ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >{ implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >{ Internet-Draft. >_______________________________________________ >PCN mailing list >PCN@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 20 08:28:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC493A69C8; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:28:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C9E3A6939 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:28:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3GD0l8IMc0JK for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl (rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BC23A690B for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.cs.utwente.nl (janus.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.26]) by rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id m6KFSpCs012850 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:28:51 +0200 (MEST) Received: from 79.130.143.213 (auth. user karagian@imap1.ewi.utwente.nl) by webmail.cs.utwente.nl with HTTP; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:28:51 +0000 To: pcn@ietf.org Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:28:51 +0000 X-Mailer: IlohaMail/0.8.13 (On: webmail.cs.utwente.nl) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8A8@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Georgios Karagiannis" Bounce-To: "Georgios Karagiannis" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 130.89.10.5 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0rc3 (rotterdam.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.5]); Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:28:51 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [PCN] remarks on new drafts X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Dear all I have read the drafts [I-D.eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour], [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding] and [I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding> and [draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04] and I have seen that the LC-PCN related features, such as random dropping of marked and unmarked packets, use of PCN_Affected_Marking encoding, use of egress based flow termination, etc. are not mentioned in these drafts. I hope that this situation will be changed after the IETF 72 meeting. Best regards, Georgios _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 08:28:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E309F3A6851; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:28:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A56C3A689C for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:28:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.397 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uKugM9zKq+mp for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5941B3A6851 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KKxJn-0001ER-DT for pcn@ietf.org; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:28:55 -0400 Received: from 66.194.24.3 ([66.194.24.3]) by petri-meat.com (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:28:55 -0400 Message-ID: <20080721112855.amftv0y1j4wgwss4@petri-meat.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:28:55 -0400 From: slblake@petri-meat.com To: pcn@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_27sjs4ro25a8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.6) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Subject: [PCN] PCN IETF72 final agenda X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. --=_27sjs4ro25a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have uploaded the final agenda for the PCN meeting in Dublin at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08jul/agenda/pcn.txt (also attached). The schedule is full, so presenters please plan accordingly. Also, please send me your slides before the meeting and I will upload them (pdf preferred). Regards, // Steve --=_27sjs4ro25a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="pcn-ietf72-agenda.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pcn-ietf72-agenda.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notification WG (pcn) IETF72 Meeting Agenda CHAIRs: Scott Bradner Steven Blake THURSDAY, July 31, 2008 0900-1130 Morning Session I Rathcoole =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D AGENDA: o Administrivia chairs 10 m= in - Blue sheets - Scribe - Agenda bash - Milestones status o Discuss ITU-T liaison statement chairs 15 m= in o draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04 Eardley 50 m= in draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behavior-01 o draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 Moncaster 30 m= in draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 o draft-menth-pcn-psdm-encoding-00.txt Babiarz 20 m= in draft-menth-pcn-e2e-encoding-00.txt o draft-briscoe-tsvwg-ecn-tunnel-01 Briscoe 10 m= in o draft-westberg-pcn-load-control-04.txt Mekkes 15 m= in --=_27sjs4ro25a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --=_27sjs4ro25a8-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 20:05:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3D23A68E8; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:05:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189173A68E8 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:05:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.139 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.139 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OP3jzNYMtAQX for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcars04e.nortel.com (zcars04e.nortel.com [47.129.242.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2563A681C for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6M33Us07546; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 03:03:30 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:04:44 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC0E@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8B1@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft Thread-Index: AcjXayyZY1ULmuV2QiaapwOB+jMbygCy3EfAAwqgojABPbog4A== References: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB646516BA8332@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8B1@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: , Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1839817794==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1839817794== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBA7.B2168080" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBA7.B2168080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil, Some additional comments below yours.=20 =20 Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 ________________________________ From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]=20 Sent: July 15, 2008 8:51 AM To: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03); pcn@ietf.org Subject: RE: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft =20 Joe=20 =20 Thanks very much for all the comments! =20 In-line replies phil =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jozef Babiarz [mailto:babiarz@nortel.com]=20 Sent: 29 June 2008 23:51 To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org Subject: RE: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft =20 Phil,=20 My comments on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 version.=20 =20 ********************** Section 2 specifies the functions involved, which in outline (see Figure 1) are: =20 o Packet classify and condition - decide whether an incoming packet belongs to a PCN-flow or not; [Joe] This is a PCN ingress node function and not part of the metering and marking behavior that this draft is defining. This should be moved to Arch draft or draft that defines edge behaviors. =20 [phil] yes, pkt classification is a PCN ingress node function but it's also a function that all PCN-nodes need to do. They have to decide whether a particular pkt is a PCN-pkt or not, by looking at the DSCP & ECN fields. However, the mention of PCN-flow is somewhat misleading and it think it would be better to re-phrase this bullet: * Packet classify - decide whether a packet is a PCN-packet or not; [Joe] State that packet classification is based on DSCP and ECN fields only for interior nodes.=20 =20 =20 =20 o Condition: drop or downgrade packets if the link is overloaded; [Joe] This could be a PCN ingress node function but not part of the metering and marking behavior that this draft is defining. This should be moved to Arch draft or draft that defines edge behaviors. =20 [phil] yes, conditioning is a PCN ingress node function but it's also a function for all PCN-nodes.=20 [Joe] I always thought that the purpose of this work was that within PCN domain, PCN traffic is controlled at edges so that conditioning (dropping of PCN packets) could be avoided? If interior nodes are going to drop PCN packets how can QoS be assured and what is the value of PCN? =20 [phil] I'm not sure about your comment about deleting from this draft discussion about specific PCN-ingress-node policing (traffic conditioning) actions. The PCN-ingress-node's traffic conditioning is very similar to other PCN-nodes, just some slight specialisation, so it seems easy to talk about it here. Also the PCN-ingress-node policing stuff is MUSTs which is ok in this draft but not possible in the Informational archit draft & edge behaviour drafts. [Joe] At PCN ingress-node traffic classification and condition needs to be expended to address all scenarios. e.g., untrusted DSCP, ECN and traffic rate, trusted DSCP, ECN but untrusted traffic rate, trusted DSCP, ECN and traffic rate, etc. I just do not think that this is draft where this needs to be addressed in.=20 =20 Figure 1: Schematic of functions for PCN-marking [Joe] The Classify and Condition blocks should be deleted. As stated above, combination of the DSCP field and ECN field in the IP header is used to indicate that a packet is a PCN-packet, so packet classification is not needed.=20 =20 [phil] I would call this action [looking at the combination of dscp & ecn to determine if it's a pcn-pkt] pkt classification. Alternative name? [Joe] RFC 2475 provides some terminology. I believe BA Classifier would be an appropriate term with a note that it also includes the ECN field. =20 1.1. Terminology =20 o Other-traffic: traffic that uses the same DS codepoint as PCN- traffic, but a different value in the ECN field; has the same priority as PCN-traffic (in terms of scheduling at PCN-nodes); but is not subject to PCN-marking, nor PCN's admissin control and flow termination mechanisms. Thus PCN-traffic and other-traffic have different per-domain behaviours RFC 3086 [RFC3086]. Note: there may be no other-traffic in a PCN-domain. Note: the term PCN-BA does not include other-traffic (this is a clarification, as the definition of behaviour aggregate in RFC 2474 [RFC2474], RFC 2475 [RFC2475] is somewhat ambiguous in the context of PCN. [Joe] Suggest rewording above to: Non-PCN-traffic: traffic that is admission controlled using some other means and uses the same DS codepoint as PCN-traffic but a different value in the ECN field; has the same priority as PCN-traffic (in terms of scheduling at PCN-nodes); but is not subject to PCN-marking, nor PCN's admission control and flow termination mechanisms. =20 [phil] the different term seems better to me, and a re-wording on these lines is good/ =20 =20 [Joe comment] The mixture of non-PCN and PCN traffic into the same queue introduces two options for metering. Only PCN traffic is metered or Non-PCN and PCN traffic is metered against PCN-threshold and PCN-excess rates. For flow termination, metering PCN and non-PCN traffic is required otherwise not enough traffic will be removed. For admission control metering could be performed just for PCN-traffic or PCN and non-PCN traffic. Should also note that each PCN node needs police non-PCN traffic otherwise non-PCN traffic could break the PCN admission control. Think it would be good idea that is issues is documented later in this draft. =20 =20 [phil] I think admission control metering also needs to meter non-PCN-traffic, since it has the same DSCP as PCN-traffic it shares the link's capacity (equal scheduling priority). Otherwise there's a risk of over-admission of pcn, if there's lots of the non-PCN-traffic. [Joe] There is not risk of over-admission if the non-PCN-traffic is admission controlled by some other means. [Joe] This will depend on how the new DSCP is defined. For example if PCN uses the Voice Admit DSCP than traffic that is marked with that DSCP is admission controlled and does not need to be policed on interior nodes as it is controlled at ingress to the network. If the PCN domain chooses to support both, flows that are admission controlled by some other means and by PCN mechanism, than one option is, each admission control mechanism controls the amount of traffic that can be admitted on to the link independently and the rates are configured so that the sum does not exceed the service class capacity for that link. The other option is that PCN and Voice Admit traffic is aggregate and metered against the capacity of the service class of that link. Both are acceptable and operator can choose.=20 The issue of queues is a separate one. The pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic might use the same queue or different queues. But even in the latter case, same scheduling priority (this seems implicit in them having the same DSCP - in principle I suppose they could be scheduled with different priorities). Yes each pcn-node polices non-pcn-traffic, this is covered later.=20 =20 =20 o Priority-traffic: traffic that is more important than PCN that shares the same capacity as PCN and is priority scheduled over PCN (perhaps an operator's control messages). Note: there may be no priority-traffic in a PCN-domain. [Joe] Delete the above. If traffic is going to be scheduled differently than it needs a different DS codepoint. =20 [phil] yes it has a different dscp. However it uses pcn capacity but scheduled at a higher priority (ie am assuming this traffic doesn't have its own dedicated capacity but rather just uses the same capacity as pcn but scheduled at a higher priority). [Joe] I'm confused. Why have traffic that is scheduled by a different queue be included into PCN scheduling capacity? If you are going to mix traffic that is admission control and not admission controlled into the same scheduling class (queue) than this requires a section explaining how it's going to work and how all the additional meters and drops in all the interior nodes are configured. My assumption is that this type of configuration would not be popular as it would be very complex to configure, but could be documented in an appendix.=20 =20 o Metered-traffic: the collective term for PCN-traffic and (if any) priority-traffic and other-traffic. [Joe] Delete the above. Do not understand why this is needed. =20 [phil] all this traffic should contribute to the PCN meters, since it shares the same capacity as PCN. If there's lots of this traffic then there's less room for PCN-traffic.=20 =20 [phil] I think it would be worth adding to the Appendix. Especially if metered-traffic only consists of PCN-traffic, then traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes may not be critical, since if a Pcn-node is overloaded then flow termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. So perhaps traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes is a SHOULD or even MAY rather than a MUST.=20 [Joe] I think we should document a scenario where there is only PCN traffic, PCN and traffic that is admission controlled by some other means, and finally PCN traffic and other real-time traffic that is not admission controlled. The last one will require additional meters and droppers on all interior nodes.=20 =20 =20 o Downgrade: Re-marking a packet, ie changing its DS codepoint, into a lower priority behaviour aggregate, such as best effort or assured forwarding; as a consequence perhaps dropping lower priority packets. [Joe] Downgrading of packets, changing DS codepoints so that they are forward by a different queue is very bad as it cause miss ordering of packets. The downgrading concept can be used in admission control, instead of block a new flow from being admitted is allowed into the network into a service class that is not admission control and therefore it my encounter lower queues. Delete the above. =20 [phil] the danger of re-ordering is mentioned in section B.3. however, it would be good to have a discussion about whether downgrading is a sensible traffic conditioning action, or whether (like shaping) it should be listed as an unsuitable action.=20 [Joe] My understanding is that DiffServ architecture does not recommend mechanisms that introduce mis-ordering of packets. =20 =20 ... =20 2.3. Traffic conditioning function ... [Joe] The complete section 2.3. Traffic conditioning function needs to be deleted and replaced with discussion of the issues when PCN and non-PCN traffic is aggregated into a single forwarding service class or queue. If an operator chooses to use the same forwarding service class for both PCN and non-PCN traffic than the non-PCN traffic SHOULD be policed on each PCN node. (Also SHOULD or MUST is up for debate). =20 [Joe comment] My personal view is that to keep it simple PCN and non-PCN traffic should not be mixed into the same forwarding service class (queue). But for completeness it should be covered in a section in the back of the draft. =20 =20 [phil] for me, the issue is whether the PCN-traffic and non-pcn-traffic are scheduled with the same priority. Separate queues opens up the possibility of different priorities, but of course they could still be prioritised the same. I've been assuming that because they've got the same dscp they'll have the same scheduling priority - however I guess this wouldn't necessarily have to be the case. Worth discussing this, and what the most likely /sensible implementation is.=20 [Joe] DiffSer architecture states that all packets marked with the same DSCP are forwarded from the same queue or scheduling class. ECN field is not used in determining what queue or scheduling class the packet should be forwarded from. That means that at ingress to PCN domain, there are the following configuration options. One is that only pcn-traffic are marked with the DSCP that supports PCN. Option 2, both pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic is marked with the same DSCP but non-PCN-traffic is admission controlled by other means. Option 3 both PCN-traffic and non-pcn-traffic is marked with same DSCP and the non-pcn-traffic is not admission controlled. My other point is that "scheduled with the same priority" or "from the same queue" is equivalent.=20 =20 =20 2.5. Excess traffic meter function =20 A packet SHOULD NOT be metered (by this excess traffic meter function) in the following two cases: =20 o If the packet is already excess-traffic-marked; =20 o If this PCN-node drops (downgrades) the packet because the link is overloaded. [Joe] Suggest deleting the word downgrades. I also have an issue with the meter needing to know if the packet is going to be dropped or not at some later stage in the node. This requirement may introduce high complexity in some router implementations. Why is this important? =20 [phil] re "know if the packet is going to be dropped or not at some later stage in the node". In fact, the dropping (etc) action will presumably be implemented in a node before the metering function, at least that seems the easiest way to implement it. Perhaps I should re-write with this assumption, but point out this issue if you do it the other way round. The problem was explained by Michael in one of his papers, if I remember it right it's that you end up terminating too much traffic if a node meters pkts that it also drops.=20 [Joe] Yes one of the flow termination approaches was sensitive but others where not. I would expect that dropping of pcn-traffic that exceeds the pcn-service-rate (scheduler) will cause the queue to overflow and this is how packets will be dropped. This is how we simulated flow termination with packet loss. Most routers do not have meter function on egress interfaces so adding a requirement that PCN traffic be metered and dropped before it is send to queue will require new silicon. =20 B.2. Classify =20 Traffic that has a higher DiffServ priority than PCN, but shares the same capacity, is metered as though it were PCN-traffic but cannot be PCN-marked. This means that a meter may indicate a packet is to be PCN-marked, but the Marking function knows it cannot be marked. It is left open to the implementation exactly what to do in this case; one simple possibility is to mark the next PCN-packet. Note that unless the PCN-packets are a large fraction of all the metered- packets then the PCN mechanisms may not work well. =20 Similar remarks can be made with respect to other-traffic. [Joe] Do not understand B.2. How can if have higher DiffServ priority and share the same queue? =20 [phil] shares same capacity, not the same queue.=20 [Joe] Forwarding capacity or rate on router is configured per queue.=20 =20 B.3. Traffic conditioning =20 [Joe] How do you downgrade a packet without causing re-ordering of packets in flow under congestion? [Joe] Section B.3 Traffic conditioning need significant amount of rewriting. Would suggest that it be called Traffic Policing and as it pertains to PCN and real-time flows only packet dropping could be applied. The other traffic conditioning methods should be deleted as they not appropriated for real-time applications. =20 [phil] I tried to follow the terminology of rfc 2474 & 2475. as is the way, the match isn't 100% right for pcn. Eg 2474 defines traffic conditioning as including "metering, policing, shaping, and packet marking."=20 I chose to use the term Policing only in the context of PCN-ingress-nodes. Of course I could have just called that traffic conditioning as well, and strictly that would be more correct. I just thought it would be easier to save the word policing for ingress node action. However, I'm not sure this was the right choice.=20 =20 Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: June 26, 2008 5:01 AM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] New version of the marking behaviour draft =20 I've just updated the marking behaviour draft, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour- 01.txt=20 =20 Main change was to re-write Traffic conditioning section - also tried to take account of the two encoding drafts (baseline & extension). =20 Comments welcome! Thanks Phil =20 Abstract =20 This document standardises the two marking behaviours of PCN-nodes: threshold marking and excess traffic marking. Threshold marking marks all PCN-packets if the PCN traffic rate is greater than a first configured rate. Excess traffic marking marks a proportion of PCN- packets, such that the amount marked equals the traffic rate in excess of a second configured rate. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBA7.B2168080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Phil,

Some additional comments below = yours.

 

Regards, = Joe
email:babiarz@nortel.com
Telephone:613-763-6098

From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
Sent: July 15, 2008 8:51 = AM
To: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03); pcn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [PCN] New = version of the marking behaviour draft

 

Joe =

 

Thanks very much = for all the comments!

 

In-line = replies

phil

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jozef Babiarz [mailto:babiarz@nortel.com]
Sent: 29 June 2008 = 23:51
To: = Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [PCN] New = version of the marking behaviour draft

 

Phil,

My comments on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 version.

 

**********************=

Section 2 specifies the functions involved, which in outline = (see Figure 1) are:

 

   o  Packet classify and condition - decide = whether an incoming packet

      belongs to a PCN-flow or = not;

[Joe] This is a PCN ingress node function and not part of the = metering and marking behavior that this draft is defining. This should be moved = to Arch draft or draft that defines edge behaviors.

 

[phil] yes, pkt classification is a PCN ingress node function but it’s also a = function that all PCN-nodes need to do. They have to decide whether a particular = pkt is a PCN-pkt or not, by looking at the DSCP & ECN fields. However, the = mention of PCN-flow is somewhat misleading and it think it would be better to = re-phrase this bullet:

·      Packet classify - decide = whether a packet is a PCN-packet or not;

[Joe] State that packet = classification is based on DSCP and ECN fields only for interior nodes.

 

 

 

o  Condition: drop or downgrade packets = if the link is overloaded;

[Joe] This could be a PCN ingress node function but not part of = the metering and marking behavior that this draft is defining. This should = be moved to Arch draft or draft that defines edge behaviors.

 

[phil] yes, = conditioning is a PCN ingress node function but it’s also a function for all PCN-nodes.

[Joe] I always = thought that the purpose of this work was that within PCN domain, PCN traffic is controlled at edges so that conditioning (dropping of PCN packets) could = be avoided? If interior nodes are going to drop PCN packets how can QoS be = assured and what is the value of PCN?

 

[phil] I’m = not sure about your comment about deleting from this draft discussion about = specific PCN-ingress-node policing (traffic conditioning) actions. The PCN-ingress-node’s traffic conditioning is very similar to other PCN-nodes, just some slight specialisation, so it seems easy to talk = about it here. Also the PCN-ingress-node policing stuff is MUSTs which is ok in = this draft but not possible in the Informational archit draft & edge = behaviour drafts.

[Joe] At PCN = ingress-node traffic classification and condition needs to be expended to address all scenarios.  e.g., untrusted DSCP, ECN and traffic rate, trusted = DSCP, ECN but untrusted traffic rate, trusted DSCP, ECN and traffic rate, etc. I = just do not think that this is draft where this needs to be addressed in. =

 

   Figure 1: Schematic of functions for = PCN-marking

[Joe] The Classify and Condition blocks should be deleted. As = stated above, combination of the DSCP field and ECN field in the IP header is = used to indicate that a packet is a PCN-packet, so packet classification is not = needed.

 

[phil] I would = call this action [looking at the combination of dscp & ecn to determine if = it’s a pcn-pkt] pkt classification. Alternative name?

[Joe] RFC 2475 = provides some terminology. I believe BA Classifier would be an appropriate term = with a note that it also includes the ECN field.

 

1.1.  Terminology

 

   o  Other-traffic: traffic that uses the same = DS codepoint as PCN-

      traffic, but a different value in = the ECN field; has the same

      priority as PCN-traffic (in terms = of scheduling at PCN-nodes); but

      is not subject to PCN-marking, = nor PCN's admissin control and flow

      termination mechanisms.  = Thus PCN-traffic and other-traffic have

      different per-domain behaviours = RFC 3086 [RFC3086].  Note: there

      may be no other-traffic in a PCN-domain.  Note: the term PCN-BA

      does not include other-traffic = (this is a clarification, as the

      definition of behaviour aggregate = in RFC 2474 [RFC2474], RFC 2475

      [RFC2475] is somewhat ambiguous = in the context of PCN.

[Joe] Suggest rewording above to:

Non-PCN-traffic: traffic that is admission controlled using some = other means and uses the same DS codepoint as PCN-traffic but a different = value in the ECN field; has the same priority as PCN-traffic (in terms of = scheduling at PCN-nodes); but is not subject to PCN-marking, nor PCN's admission = control and flow termination mechanisms.

 

[phil] the = different term seems better to me, and a re-wording on these lines is = good/

 

 

[Joe comment] The mixture of non-PCN and PCN traffic into the = same queue introduces two options for metering. Only PCN traffic is metered = or Non-PCN and PCN traffic is metered against PCN-threshold and PCN-excess = rates. For flow termination, metering PCN and non-PCN traffic is required = otherwise not enough traffic will be removed. For admission control metering could = be performed just for PCN-traffic or PCN and non-PCN traffic. Should also = note that each PCN node needs police non-PCN traffic otherwise non-PCN = traffic could break the PCN admission control. Think it would be good idea that is = issues is documented later in this draft.  

 

[phil] I think = admission control metering also needs to meter non-PCN-traffic, since it has the = same DSCP as PCN-traffic it shares the link’s capacity (equal = scheduling priority). Otherwise there’s a risk of over-admission of pcn, if there’s lots of the non-PCN-traffic.

[Joe]  There is not risk of over-admission if the non-PCN-traffic is admission controlled by some = other means.

[Joe] This will = depend on how the new DSCP is defined. For example if PCN uses the Voice Admit = DSCP than traffic that is marked with that DSCP is admission controlled and does = not need to be policed on interior nodes as it is controlled at ingress to the = network. If the PCN domain chooses to support both, flows that are admission = controlled by some other means and by PCN mechanism, than one option is, each = admission control mechanism controls the amount of traffic that can be admitted on = to the link independently and the rates are configured so that the sum does not = exceed the service class capacity for that link. The other option is that PCN = and Voice Admit traffic is aggregate and metered against the capacity of the = service class of that link. Both are acceptable and operator can choose. =

The issue of = queues is a separate one. The pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic might use the same = queue or different queues. But even in the latter case, same scheduling priority = (this seems implicit in them having the same DSCP – in principle I = suppose they could be scheduled with different priorities).

Yes each = pcn-node polices non-pcn-traffic, this is covered later.

 

 

   o  Priority-traffic: traffic that is more = important than PCN that

      shares the same capacity as PCN = and is priority scheduled over PCN

      (perhaps an operator's control messages).  Note: there may be no

      priority-traffic in a = PCN-domain.

[Joe] Delete the above. If traffic is going to be scheduled = differently than it needs a different DS codepoint.

 

[phil] yes it = has a different dscp. However it uses pcn capacity but scheduled at a higher = priority (ie am assuming this traffic doesn’t have its own dedicated = capacity but rather just uses the same capacity as pcn but scheduled at a higher = priority).

[Joe] I’m = confused. Why have traffic that is scheduled by a different queue be included into = PCN scheduling capacity? If you are going to mix traffic that is admission = control and not admission controlled into the same scheduling class (queue) than = this requires a section explaining how it’s going to work and how all = the additional meters and drops in all the interior nodes are configured. My assumption is that this type of configuration would not be popular as it = would be very complex to configure, but could be documented in an appendix. =

 

   o  Metered-traffic: the collective term for = PCN-traffic and (if any)

      priority-traffic and = other-traffic.

[Joe] Delete the above. Do not understand why this is = needed.

 

[phil] all this = traffic should contribute to the PCN meters, since it shares the same capacity = as PCN. If there’s lots of this traffic then there’s less room for PCN-traffic.

 

[phil] I think it would be worth = adding to the Appendix. Especially if metered-traffic only consists of = PCN-traffic, then traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes may not be critical, since if = a Pcn-node is overloaded then flow termination will rapidly bring the = amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so = perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. So perhaps traffic conditioning = on PCN-interior-nodes is a SHOULD or even MAY rather than a MUST. =

[Joe] I think we = should document a scenario where there is only PCN traffic, PCN and traffic = that is admission controlled by some other means, and finally PCN traffic and = other real-time traffic that is not admission controlled. The last one will = require additional meters and droppers on all interior nodes. =

 

 

   o  Downgrade: Re-marking a packet, ie changing = its DS codepoint, into

      a lower priority behaviour = aggregate, such as best effort or

      assured forwarding; as a = consequence perhaps dropping lower

      priority = packets.

[Joe] Downgrading of packets, changing DS = codepoints so that they are forward by a different queue is very bad as it cause = miss ordering of packets. The downgrading concept can be used in admission = control, instead of block a new flow from being admitted is allowed into the = network into a service class that is not admission control and therefore it my = encounter lower queues. Delete the above.

 

[phil] the danger of re-ordering is mentioned in section B.3. however, it would be good to have a discussion = about whether downgrading is a sensible traffic conditioning action, or = whether (like shaping) it should be listed as an unsuitable action. =

[Joe] My = understanding is that DiffServ architecture does not recommend mechanisms that introduce mis-ordering of packets.  

 

...

 

2.3.  Traffic conditioning function

...

 [Joe] The complete section 2.3.  Traffic conditioning function needs to be deleted and replaced with discussion of the issues = when PCN and non-PCN traffic is aggregated into a single forwarding service = class or queue. If an operator chooses to use the same forwarding service class = for both PCN and non-PCN traffic than the non-PCN traffic SHOULD be policed on = each PCN node. (Also SHOULD or MUST is up for debate).

 

[Joe comment] My personal view is that to keep it simple PCN and non-PCN traffic should not be mixed into the same forwarding service = class (queue). But for completeness it should be covered in a section in the = back of the draft.  

 

[phil] for me, = the issue is whether the PCN-traffic and non-pcn-traffic are scheduled with the = same priority. Separate queues opens up the possibility of different = priorities, but of course they could still be prioritised the same. I’ve been = assuming that because they’ve got the same dscp they’ll have the same scheduling priority – however I guess this wouldn’t = necessarily have to be the case. Worth discussing this, and what the most likely = /sensible implementation is.

[Joe] DiffSer architecture states = that all packets marked with the same DSCP are forwarded from the same queue or scheduling class. ECN field is not used in determining what queue or = scheduling class the packet should be forwarded from. That means that at ingress to = PCN domain, there are the following configuration options. One is that only = pcn-traffic are marked with the DSCP that supports PCN. Option 2, both pcn-traffic = and non-pcn-traffic is marked with the same DSCP but non-PCN-traffic is = admission controlled by other means. Option 3 both PCN-traffic and non-pcn-traffic = is marked with same DSCP and the non-pcn-traffic is not admission = controlled.

My other point is that = “scheduled with the same priority” or “from the same queue” is = equivalent.

 

 

2.5.  Excess traffic meter function

 

   A packet SHOULD NOT be metered (by this excess = traffic meter

   function) in the following two = cases:

 

   o  If the packet is already = excess-traffic-marked;

 

   o  If this PCN-node drops (downgrades) the = packet because the link is

      overloaded.

[Joe] Suggest deleting the word downgrades. I = also have an issue with the meter needing to know if the packet is going to = be dropped or not at some later stage in the node. This requirement may = introduce high complexity in some router implementations. Why is this = important?

 

[phil] re = “know if the packet is going to be dropped or not at some later stage in the node”. In fact, the dropping (etc) action will presumably be = implemented in a node before the metering function, at least that seems the easiest = way to implement it. Perhaps I should re-write with this assumption, but point = out this issue if you do it the other way round. The problem was explained = by Michael in one of his papers, if I remember it right it’s that you = end up terminating too much traffic if a node meters pkts that it also drops. =

[Joe] Yes = one of the flow termination approaches was sensitive but others where not. I = would expect that dropping of pcn-traffic that exceeds the pcn-service-rate (scheduler) will cause the queue to overflow and this is how packets = will be dropped. This is how we simulated flow termination with packet loss. = Most routers do not have meter function on egress interfaces so adding a = requirement that PCN traffic be metered and dropped before it is send to queue will = require new silicon.

 

B.2.  Classify

 

   Traffic that has a higher DiffServ priority than = PCN, but shares the

   same capacity, is metered as though it were = PCN-traffic but cannot be

   PCN-marked.  This means that a meter may = indicate a packet is to be

   PCN-marked, but the Marking function knows it = cannot be marked.  It

   is left open to the implementation exactly what to = do in this case;

   one simple possibility is to mark the next PCN-packet.  Note that

   unless the PCN-packets are a large fraction of all = the metered-

   packets then the PCN mechanisms may not work = well.

 

   Similar remarks can be made with respect to = other-traffic.

[Joe] Do not understand B.2. How can if have = higher DiffServ priority and share the same queue?

 

[phil] shares same capacity, not = the same queue.

[Joe] Forwarding capacity or rate on = router is configured per queue.

 

B.3.  Traffic conditioning

 

[Joe] How do you downgrade a packet without = causing re-ordering of packets in flow under congestion?

[Joe] Section B.3 Traffic conditioning need significant amount of rewriting. Would suggest that it be called Traffic Policing and as it pertains to PCN and real-time flows only packet = dropping could be applied. The other traffic conditioning methods should be = deleted as they not appropriated for real-time applications.

 

[phil] I tried to follow the terminology =
of rfc 2474 & 2475. as is the way, the match isn’t 100% right =
for pcn. Eg 2474 defines traffic conditioning as including =
“metering, policing, shaping, and packet marking.” =

I chose to use the term Policing only in the =
context of PCN-ingress-nodes. Of course I could have just called that =
traffic conditioning as well, and strictly that would be more correct. I =
just thought it would be easier to save the word policing for ingress =
node action. However, I’m not sure this was the right choice. =

 

Regards, = Joe
email:babiarz@nortel.com
Telephone:613-763-6098

From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: June 26, 2008 5:01 = AM
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] New = version of the marking behaviour draft

 

I’ve just updated the = marking behaviour draft, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eardley-pcn-mark= ing-behaviour-01.txt

 

Main change was to re-write = Traffic conditioning section – also tried to take account of the two = encoding drafts (baseline & extension).

 

Comments = welcome!

Thanks

Phil

 

Abstract
 
   This document standardises the =
two marking behaviours of =
PCN-nodes:
   threshold marking and excess =
traffic marking.  Threshold =
marking
   marks all PCN-packets if the PCN =
traffic rate is greater than a =
first
   configured rate.  Excess =
traffic marking marks a proportion of =
PCN-
   packets, such that the amount =
marked equals the traffic rate =
in
   excess of a second configured =
rate.

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBA7.B2168080-- --===============1839817794== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============1839817794==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 20:20:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB763A693C; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120953A693C for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.369 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.369 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.229, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vKjUFpYiymhd for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zrtps0kn.nortel.com (zrtps0kn.nortel.com [47.140.192.55]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89AA3A6954 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6M3L2Z29428; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 03:21:03 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:20:00 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAEQtXLA References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: , Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1231661040==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1231661040== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBA9.D3E1070B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBA9.D3E1070B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted into the network. Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: July 16, 2008 1:03 PM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =20 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 Would like this draft to be WG doc towards WG milestone on marking behaviour. Think there are actually only a few minor issues to clear up, ie doc is nearly done]. So am trying to clear them up before ietf. Have separated each Issue into a separate email. They're mainly prompted by Joe's comments. =20 This is 1st of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 Do we suggest downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action or not? (traffic conditioning on all links in PCN-domain, including on PCN-ingress-node - where something special /different might be done). =20 Currently the draft says "if needed, then drop or downgrade pkts" (ie downgrade to a lower priority behaviour aggregate) As joe points out: - the danger of downgrading is that pkts in a flow could get mis-ordered. So there's an argument for not giving this as a possibility. Or should downgrading be allowed as a possibility, but just mention the danger? what's done in real diffserv /mpls networks today? - an additional possible traffic conditioning action by the PCN-ingress-node is to downgrade a *flow* (ie all pkts in a flow put into lower BA). This seems a good thing to add to me.=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBA9.D3E1070B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBA9.D3E1070B-- --===============1231661040== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============1231661040==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 21:35:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6FD3A6991; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:35:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB483A6991 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:35:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.983 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.615, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0EAXPoOFsR87 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com (zrtps0kp.nortel.com [47.140.192.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 739D13A6913 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6M4Zwp14829; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:35:58 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:26:26 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC32@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAwAREw0WA= References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: , Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1092399531==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1092399531== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBB3.1BF434BD" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBB3.1BF434BD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil my views on PCN-interior-nodes and policing requirements. =20 There is a dependency on how the new DSCP for PCN is defined. My assumption is that in the definition of the new DSCP there will be a statement that ECN semantics as defined in RFC 3168 do not apply and that this DSCP will use new ECN semantics as defined in the pcn-marking-behaviour and pcn-encoding-drafts.=20 =20 Option 1: If the Voice Admit DSCP is used than traffic that is marked with this DSCP is admission controlled. The newly defined Voice Admit DSCP can support two types of traffic, pcn-traffic that is admission controlled by PCN mechanisms and non-pcn-traffic that uses some other means for admission control. Option 1 does not require interior nodes do perform policing function as both traffic types are controlled by admission control and rates are enforced through policing at the ingress to PCN-domain. =20 Option 2: If the new DSCP is defined in way so that PCN-admission controlled and non-admission controlled traffic can be marked with it, than non-admission controlled traffic that uses this new DSCP needs (MUST) to be policed on all interior-nodes. The policing function is required to limit the amount of non-admission controlled traffic that is allowed to be aggregated with PCN-traffic into queue on each link. If the group chooses to go with option 2, than we will need to also explain how metering and dropping will be done. E.g., meter only non-admission controlled traffic (non-pcn-traffic), meter both pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic and drop only non-pcn-traffic.=20 =20 Option 2 requires interior nodes to support egress policing function which most core routers do not have. =20 Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: July 16, 2008 1:27 PM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =20 2nd of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 it's clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how about PCN-interior-nodes?=20 So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or MAY? =20 Why is traffic conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes? Because the traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest it). However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring there's always some capacity for lower priority traffic). Also, if only two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might choose to just do admission control. Flow termination would then rely on some other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate their flows because the perceived qos is bad). =20 So MAY seems too weak to me.=20 =20 SHOULD means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item" So that seems ok to me.=20 =20 Comments? Phil/ =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBB3.1BF434BD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Phil my views on PCN-interior-nodes = and policing requirements.

 =

There is a = dependency on how the new DSCP for PCN is defined. My assumption is that in the = definition of the new DSCP there will be a statement that ECN semantics as defined in = RFC 3168 do not apply and that this DSCP will use new ECN semantics as defined in = the pcn-marking-behaviour and pcn-encoding-drafts.

 =

Option 1: If the = Voice Admit DSCP is used than traffic that is marked with this DSCP is = admission controlled. The newly defined Voice Admit DSCP can support two types of traffic, pcn-traffic that is admission controlled by PCN mechanisms and = non-pcn-traffic that uses some other means for admission = control.

Option 1 does = not require interior nodes do perform policing function as both traffic types are = controlled by admission control and rates are enforced through policing at the = ingress to PCN-domain.

 =

Option 2: If the = new DSCP is defined in way so that PCN-admission controlled and non-admission = controlled traffic can be marked with it, than non-admission controlled traffic = that uses this new DSCP needs (MUST) to be policed on all interior-nodes. =  The policing function is required to limit the amount of non-admission = controlled traffic that is allowed to be aggregated with PCN-traffic into queue on = each link. If the group chooses to go with option 2, than we will need to = also explain how metering and dropping will be done. E.g., meter only non-admission controlled traffic (non-pcn-traffic), meter both pcn-traffic and = non-pcn-traffic and drop only non-pcn-traffic.

 =

Option 2 = requires interior nodes to support egress policing function which most core routers do not = have.  

Regards, = Joe
email:babiarz@nortel.com
Telephone:613-763-6098

From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: July 16, 2008 1:27 = PM
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

 

2nd= of several emails to try & close Open Issues on = http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

 

it’s clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how = about PCN-interior-nodes?

So the question is: = should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or = MAY?

 

Why is traffic = conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes?

Because the = traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest = it).

However, you = might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly = bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic = conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, = so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the = rate above which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring = there’s always some capacity for lower priority traffic).  Also, if only = two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might choose to just do admission control. Flow termination = would then rely on some other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate = their flows because the perceived qos is bad).

 

So MAY seems too = weak to me.

 

SHOULD means “that there may exist valid reasons in particular =
circumstances to ignore a particular =
item”
So that seems ok to me. =

 
Comments?
<=
font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Phil/

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EBB3.1BF434BD-- --===============1092399531== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============1092399531==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 22:14:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183B33A6846; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98883A6846 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:14:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D1BOmMJV7tRO for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6593A67FF for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id F421B198E1C; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:15:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7AD0198E16; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:15:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [85.180.254.141] (e180254141.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.180.254.141]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8396F198E0D; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:15:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48856C9A.2070400@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:14:02 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC32@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC32@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I thought that also PCN flows might have parameters that are policed at = ingress nodes to avoid that admitted voice flows can upgrade to video = without new permission? Regards, Michael Jozef Babiarz wrote: > > Phil my views on PCN-interior-nodes and policing requirements. > > There is a dependency on how the new DSCP for PCN is defined. My = > assumption is that in the definition of the new DSCP there will be a = > statement that ECN semantics as defined in RFC 3168 do not apply and = > that this DSCP will use new ECN semantics as defined in the = > pcn-marking-behaviour and pcn-encoding-drafts. > > Option 1: If the Voice Admit DSCP is used than traffic that is marked = > with this DSCP is admission controlled. The newly defined Voice Admit = > DSCP can support two types of traffic, pcn-traffic that is admission = > controlled by PCN mechanisms and non-pcn-traffic that uses some other = > means for admission control. > > Option 1 does not require interior nodes do perform policing function = > as both traffic types are controlled by admission control and rates = > are enforced through policing at the ingress to PCN-domain. > > Option 2: If the new DSCP is defined in way so that PCN-admission = > controlled and non-admission controlled traffic can be marked with it, = > than non-admission controlled traffic that uses this new DSCP needs = > (MUST) to be policed on all interior-nodes. The policing function is = > required to limit the amount of non-admission controlled traffic that = > is allowed to be aggregated with PCN-traffic into queue on each link. = > If the group chooses to go with option 2, than we will need to also = > explain how metering and dropping will be done. E.g., meter only = > non-admission controlled traffic (non-pcn-traffic), meter both = > pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic and drop only non-pcn-traffic. > > Option 2 requires interior nodes to support egress policing function = > which most core routers do not have. > > /Regards, Joe/ > email:babiarz@nortel.com > Telephone:613-763-6098 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf = > Of *philip.eardley@bt.com > *Sent:* July 16, 2008 1:27 PM > *To:* pcn@ietf.org > *Subject:* [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > 2nd of several emails to try & close Open Issues on = > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt > > it=92s clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning = > (policing). However, how about PCN-interior-nodes? > > So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a = > MUST, SHOULD or MAY? > > Why is traffic conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes? > > Because the traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link = > (not just pre-congest it). > > However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow = > termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below = > the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes = > would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an = > operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority = > flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above = > which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring = > there=92s always some capacity for lower priority traffic). Also, if = > only two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are = > available, then the operator might choose to just do admission = > control. Flow termination would then rely on some other mechanism (eg = > just waiting for end users to terminate their flows because the = > perceived qos is bad). > > So MAY seems too weak to me. > > SHOULD means =93that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumst= ances to ignore a particular item=94 > So that seems ok to me. = > = > Comments? > Phil/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > = -- = Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 21 22:40:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821953A68AE; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF63D3A68AE for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:40:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lpcLlOPmrTw8 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782BE3A67AA for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D10A064C; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:15:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DF7A064B; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:15:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [85.180.254.141] (e180254141.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.180.254.141]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E562A063C; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:15:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48856CB3.3030509@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:14:27 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jozef Babiarz References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org I agree. Michael Jozef Babiarz wrote: > > Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN domain. = > PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. > > By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for that = > flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network if = > congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not that = > downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted into the = > network. > > /Regards, Joe/ > email:babiarz@nortel.com > Telephone:613-763-6098 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf = > Of *philip.eardley@bt.com > *Sent:* July 16, 2008 1:03 PM > *To:* pcn@ietf.org > *Subject:* [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt > > Would like this draft to be WG doc towards WG milestone on marking = > behaviour. Think there are actually only a few minor issues to clear = > up, ie doc is nearly done]. So am trying to clear them up before ietf. > > Have separated each Issue into a separate email. They=92re mainly = > prompted by Joe=92s comments. > > This is 1^st of several emails to try & close Open Issues on = > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt > > Do we suggest downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action or = > not? (traffic conditioning on all links in PCN-domain, including on = > PCN-ingress-node =96 where something special /different might be done). > > Currently the draft says =93if needed, then drop or downgrade pkts=94 (ie = > downgrade to a lower priority behaviour aggregate) > > As joe points out: > > - the danger of downgrading is that pkts in a flow could get = > mis-ordered. So there=92s an argument for not giving this as a = > possibility. Or should downgrading be allowed as a possibility, but = > just mention the danger? what=92s done in real diffserv /mpls networks = > today? > > - an additional possible traffic conditioning action by the = > PCN-ingress-node is to downgrade a **flow** (ie all pkts in a flow put = > into lower BA). This seems a good thing to add to me. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > = -- = Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 05:40:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBBE3A698E; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:40:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9E43A6947 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:40:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.334, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kibQfYUB1qiK for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portland.eukhost.com (portland.eukhost.com [92.48.97.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9575B3A6995 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 05:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c-69-255-78-171.hsd1.md.comcast.net ([69.255.78.171]:62381 helo=[192.168.1.120]) by portland.eukhost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLHBF-0001lP-IU; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:41:25 +0000 Message-Id: From: ken carlberg To: Jozef Babiarz In-Reply-To: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:41:26 -0400 References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - portland.eukhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - g11.org.uk Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1607248460==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org --===============1607248460== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-15-52601458 --Apple-Mail-15-52601458 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote: > Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN > domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. > By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for > that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network > if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not > that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted > into the network. interesting. so the expectation is that a PCN domain will perform admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. I think that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective experiences with ISPs is different. also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step further, I assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN domain because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution, it can cause packet mis-ordering. cheers, -ken --Apple-Mail-15-52601458 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Jul 21, 2008, = at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote:

Downgrading should only be done per = flow and at ingress to PCN domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet = mis-ordering.
By downgrading means that admission = control is not performed for that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress = to network and network if congested will drop packets belonging to that = flow. Should not that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow = is admitted into the = network.

interesting.  so the expectation is that a PCN = domain will perform admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no = flow(s) will be treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. =  I think that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our = respective experiences with ISPs is = different.

also, if we take the concern about = mis-ordering one step further, I assume you would highly discourage the = use of ECMP in the PCN domain because even though its out of scope of = PCN as part of a solution, it can cause packet = mis-ordering.

cheers,

-k= en

= --Apple-Mail-15-52601458-- --===============1607248460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============1607248460==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 10:54:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A8B3A6A73; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FA23A6A73 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C6m1FRIpMe-A for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C47A3A6820 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:55:30 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:55:29 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07B9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: Acjr+Ec8J0DAMBoZQ+qrg/mReUyBlQAKx/l4 References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2008 17:55:30.0219 (UTC) FILETIME=[2153FFB0:01C8EC24] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org ken it's expected that there'll be traffic that isnt PCN within the PCN-domai (if i get your comment!). as i understand it, all pkts in a flow follow the same ecmp path, so there shouldnt be any misordering. thanks phil ________________________________ From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 13:41 To: Jozef Babiarz Cc: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote: Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted into the network. interesting. so the expectation is that a PCN domain will perform admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. I think that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective experiences with ISPs is different. also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step further, I assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN domain because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution, it can cause packet mis-ordering. cheers, -ken _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 11:04:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A70D3A6A14; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7093A69C8 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iNs-TsMh-cRY for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617AB3A693E for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:04:59 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:04:19 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07BB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjruezeECUSjNd5TDiC1eghVMZEIgAa2/5f References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC32@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> <48856C9A.2070400@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2008 18:04:59.0574 (UTC) FILETIME=[74B0AD60:01C8EC25] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org hi michael yes, this is already covered: << In addition, PCN-ingress-nodes MUST police PCN-traffic by: o metering PCN-packets that are part of a previously admitted PCN- flow, to check that it keeps to the agreed rate or flowspec (eg RFC 1633 [RFC1633] for a microflow, and its NSIS equivalent). >> thanks phil ________________________________ From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de] Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 06:14 To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R Cc: Jozef Babiarz; pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Hi, I thought that also PCN flows might have parameters that are policed at ingress nodes to avoid that admitted voice flows can upgrade to video without new permission? Regards, Michael Jozef Babiarz wrote: > > Phil my views on PCN-interior-nodes and policing requirements. > > There is a dependency on how the new DSCP for PCN is defined. My > assumption is that in the definition of the new DSCP there will be a > statement that ECN semantics as defined in RFC 3168 do not apply and > that this DSCP will use new ECN semantics as defined in the > pcn-marking-behaviour and pcn-encoding-drafts. > > Option 1: If the Voice Admit DSCP is used than traffic that is marked > with this DSCP is admission controlled. The newly defined Voice Admit > DSCP can support two types of traffic, pcn-traffic that is admission > controlled by PCN mechanisms and non-pcn-traffic that uses some other > means for admission control. > > Option 1 does not require interior nodes do perform policing function > as both traffic types are controlled by admission control and rates > are enforced through policing at the ingress to PCN-domain. > > Option 2: If the new DSCP is defined in way so that PCN-admission > controlled and non-admission controlled traffic can be marked with it, > than non-admission controlled traffic that uses this new DSCP needs > (MUST) to be policed on all interior-nodes. The policing function is > required to limit the amount of non-admission controlled traffic that > is allowed to be aggregated with PCN-traffic into queue on each link. > If the group chooses to go with option 2, than we will need to also > explain how metering and dropping will be done. E.g., meter only > non-admission controlled traffic (non-pcn-traffic), meter both > pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic and drop only non-pcn-traffic. > > Option 2 requires interior nodes to support egress policing function > which most core routers do not have. > > /Regards, Joe/ > email:babiarz@nortel.com > Telephone:613-763-6098 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *philip.eardley@bt.com > *Sent:* July 16, 2008 1:27 PM > *To:* pcn@ietf.org > *Subject:* [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > 2nd of several emails to try & close Open Issues on > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt > > it's clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning > (policing). However, how about PCN-interior-nodes? > > So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a > MUST, SHOULD or MAY? > > Why is traffic conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes? > > Because the traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link > (not just pre-congest it). > > However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow > termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below > the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes > would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an > operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority > flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above > which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring > there's always some capacity for lower priority traffic). Also, if > only two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are > available, then the operator might choose to just do admission > control. Flow termination would then rely on some other mechanism (eg > just waiting for end users to terminate their flows because the > perceived qos is bad). > > So MAY seems too weak to me. > > SHOULD means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item" > So that seems ok to me. > > Comments? > Phil/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 11:11:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DEC3A69A7; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:11:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757D33A69A7 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:11:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NI7+GCsEyV1H for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027363A6929 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:12:04 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:12:03 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07BC@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAwAREw0WAAHq6VDQ== References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC32@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2008 18:12:04.0016 (UTC) FILETIME=[71AD6300:01C8EC26] Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org joe follow up on on Option 1. if there's a failure and traffic is re-routed, then a link could get overloaded. question is what to do about this. flow termination of course possible. if PCN-domain not runnign flow termination, then question is whether it's worth having policing on PCN-interior-nodes as a possibility to protect against this. i guess your view is that this should only be a MAY, since policing funciton isn't something most core routers can do? thanks phil ________________________________ From: Jozef Babiarz [mailto:babiarz@nortel.com] Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 05:26 To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org Subject: RE: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Phil my views on PCN-interior-nodes and policing requirements. There is a dependency on how the new DSCP for PCN is defined. My assumption is that in the definition of the new DSCP there will be a statement that ECN semantics as defined in RFC 3168 do not apply and that this DSCP will use new ECN semantics as defined in the pcn-marking-behaviour and pcn-encoding-drafts. Option 1: If the Voice Admit DSCP is used than traffic that is marked with this DSCP is admission controlled. The newly defined Voice Admit DSCP can support two types of traffic, pcn-traffic that is admission controlled by PCN mechanisms and non-pcn-traffic that uses some other means for admission control. Option 1 does not require interior nodes do perform policing function as both traffic types are controlled by admission control and rates are enforced through policing at the ingress to PCN-domain. Option 2: If the new DSCP is defined in way so that PCN-admission controlled and non-admission controlled traffic can be marked with it, than non-admission controlled traffic that uses this new DSCP needs (MUST) to be policed on all interior-nodes. The policing function is required to limit the amount of non-admission controlled traffic that is allowed to be aggregated with PCN-traffic into queue on each link. If the group chooses to go with option 2, than we will need to also explain how metering and dropping will be done. E.g., meter only non-admission controlled traffic (non-pcn-traffic), meter both pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic and drop only non-pcn-traffic. Option 2 requires interior nodes to support egress policing function which most core routers do not have. Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: July 16, 2008 1:27 PM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 2nd of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt it's clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how about PCN-interior-nodes? So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or MAY? Why is traffic conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes? Because the traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest it). However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring there's always some capacity for lower priority traffic). Also, if only two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might choose to just do admission control. Flow termination would then rely on some other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate their flows because the perceived qos is bad). So MAY seems too weak to me. SHOULD means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item" So that seems ok to me. Comments? Phil/ _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 11:30:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E021E3A69EC; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:30:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5103A6909 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.207 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.207 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.392, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pjY7sMejH84z for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A4B3A6972 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:30:45 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:30:45 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07BF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] remarks on new drafts Thread-Index: AcjqfVQAlkVkNmDUSHSeIR7QfmjFbQBquuFR References: From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2008 18:30:45.0458 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E1BDB20:01C8EC29] Subject: Re: [PCN] remarks on new drafts X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Georgios you need to explain each feature in turn. - dropping of marked and unmarked pkts was discussed extensively at last ietf. what the marking behaviour draft says is what the meeting decided. if you want this decision re-opened, evidence (or rather: new evidence) needs to be forthcoming. in fact, the agreement at the last ietf was that any evidence to re-opne the decisions would be far enough in advance of this ietf for us to assess it in advance of the meeting. - affected marking: a decision was made at last ietf about going forward with two encoding states (one dscp) in baseline and three encoding states (two dscps) in an Experimental extension. i guess you could propose a further experimental draft about affected marking. - i'm not quite sure what you mean by egress based flow termination. but the architecture draft mentions different possibilities for where the flow termination decision might be made. thanks phil ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Georgios Karagiannis Sent: Sun 20/07/2008 16:28 To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] remarks on new drafts Dear all I have read the drafts [I-D.eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour], [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding] and [I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding> and [draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04] and I have seen that the LC-PCN related features, such as random dropping of marked and unmarked packets, use of PCN_Affected_Marking encoding, use of egress based flow termination, etc. are not mentioned in these drafts. I hope that this situation will be changed after the IETF 72 meeting. Best regards, Georgios _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 11:33:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A59328C102; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:33:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7F828C106 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:33:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.928 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.928 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m2WawPBJPv7K for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCDB28C0F2 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:33:48 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:31:17 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07C0@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt Thread-Index: AcjqfHfxGM8fuO7DSeaDXAS/0IkcxQBrKlFh References: <9frKVWBX.1216567360.0789330.karagian@ewi.utwente.nl> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2008 18:33:48.0123 (UTC) FILETIME=[7AFC52B0:01C8EC29] Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org i certainly didnt intend to make major changes. please point out what's been removed that needs re-inserting. not quite sure what you mean about the hose model. please remind me, a link to mailing list discussions would be good. i tried to reflect all mailing list discussions since the previous version, but easy to forget something! thanks phil ________________________________ From: Georgios Karagiannis [mailto:karagian@cs.utwente.nl] Sent: Sun 20/07/2008 16:22 To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] New version of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt Hi Phil I have read the draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04 and I have seen that there are major changes included. These major changes mainly affect the LC-PCN required features at the interior and egress nodes. I hope that the new version of the PCN architecture draft will include the LC-PCN related features that were included in version 3 of the PCN architecture draft and are removed in version 4 of the PCN architecture draft. Furthermore, I can not see any information about ingress-egress-aggregate (trunl/pipe) model and HOSE model that has been intensivelly discussed during the months after the IETF 71. Best regards, Georgios On 7/15/2008, "philip.eardley@bt.com" wrote: >I updated the Architecture draft. > >There are no major changes, but several more minor ones. These mostly >reflect the consensus call about PCN-marking (as reflected in >[I-D.eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour]), and the current decisions about >encoding (as reflected in [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding] and >[I-D.moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding]). I also did some slight >re-structuring and editing to try and improve the clarity, especially of >the introductory material and the High level architecture (where I also >added a sub-section on backwards compatibility with respect to >[RFC4774]). I also took account of all the comments received on the -03 >version (thanks for them) > >Comments welcome! - thanks, >phil > >{ -----Original Message----- >{ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >{ Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >{ Sent: 14 July 2008 23:00 >{ To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >{ Cc: pcn@ietf.org >{ Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ >{ A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >{ directories. >{ This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion >{ Notification Working Group of the IETF. >{ >{ >{ Title : Pre-Congestion Notification Architecture >{ Author(s) : P. Eardley >{ Filename : draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ Pages : 52 >{ Date : 2008-07-14 >{ >{ The purpose of this document is to describe a general architecture >{ for flow admission and termination based on pre-congestion >{ information in order to protect the quality of service of established >{ inelastic flows within a single DiffServ domain.Status >{ >{ A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >{ http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04.txt >{ >{ Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >{ ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >{ >{ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >{ implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >{ Internet-Draft. >_______________________________________________ >PCN mailing list >PCN@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 11:55:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E6D3A6A41; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:55:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE29E3A6A7C for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id reUXKm89b0SZ for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portland.eukhost.com (portland.eukhost.com [92.48.97.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905463A6979 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c-68-33-242-58.hsd1.md.comcast.net ([68.33.242.58]:34659 helo=[192.168.1.120]) by portland.eukhost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLN1p-0007ip-4R; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:56:05 +0000 Message-Id: From: ken carlberg To: In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07B9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:56:07 -0400 References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07B9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - portland.eukhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - g11.org.uk Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Phil, > ken > it's expected that there'll be traffic that isnt PCN within the PCN- > domai (if i get your comment!). ok, we're in sync on that point. I just feel uncomfortable removing the option to downgrade packets in favor of dropping them given that a portion of a node's/link's resources is more than likely set aside for best effort, especially if the motivating factor for dropping is the *potential* for mis-ordering. if folks feel strongly for recommending a policy of dropping, fine. But I'd just like to point to down- grading as an option to consider. > as i understand it, all pkts in a flow follow the same ecmp path, so > there shouldnt be any misordering. my understanding is that this is configuration/implementation dependent. otherwise, I don't think we'd see documents like rfc-4928 (avoiding ECMP treatment in MPLS networks) spring up. cheers, -ken > > thanks > phil > > ________________________________ > > From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] > Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 13:41 > To: Jozef Babiarz > Cc: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote: > > > > Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN > domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. > By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for > that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network > if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not > that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted > into the network. > > > interesting. so the expectation is that a PCN domain will perform > admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be > treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. I think > that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective > experiences with ISPs is different. > > also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step further, I > assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN domain > because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution, > it can cause packet mis-ordering. > > cheers, > > -ken > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 16:21:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE423A680C; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:21:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B819B3A680C for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:21:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.410, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9YuA9ikbXFfA for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com (zrtps0kp.nortel.com [47.140.192.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C163A676A for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6MNLsc28490; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:21:54 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:11:39 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651716783E@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: Acjr+EZQIAc4KwPrRwaYUHNbNmUzVQAVcc8g References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: "ken carlberg" Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2074530809==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2074530809== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC50.4CDA6076" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC50.4CDA6076 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ken, properly designed ECMP mechanism normally do not cause packet mis-ordering as the route selection is done on the first packet of a new flow. =20 If route changes after a flow has started, than yes there is the possibility that mis-ordering of packets may occur. In my view rerouting of flows or downgrading once a flow has started should be an infrequent event, like when link or node failures. I'm note say that mis-ordering of packets dose not happen in the Internet all I trying to say is that IETF should develop protocols and procedures that minimize the possibility of packet mis-ordering.=20 Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 ________________________________ From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk]=20 Sent: July 22, 2008 8:41 AM To: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03) Cc: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =20 =20 On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote: Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted into the network. =20 interesting. so the expectation is that a PCN domain will perform admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. I think that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective experiences with ISPs is different. =20 also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step further, I assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN domain because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution, it can cause packet mis-ordering. =20 cheers, =20 -ken =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC50.4CDA6076 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ken, properly designed ECMP = mechanism normally do not cause packet mis-ordering as the route selection is done on the = first packet of a new flow.

 

If route changes after a flow has = started, than yes there is the possibility that mis-ordering of packets may = occur. In my view rerouting of flows or downgrading once a flow has started should be = an infrequent event, like when link or node failures. I’m note say that = mis-ordering of packets dose not happen in the Internet all I trying to say is that IETF = should develop protocols and procedures that minimize the possibility of packet mis-ordering.

Regards, = Joe
email:babiarz@nortel.com
Telephone:613-763-6098

From: ken = carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk]
Sent: July 22, 2008 8:41 = AM
To: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03)
Cc: = philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue = 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

 

 

On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef = Babiarz wrote:



Downgrading should only be done per = flow and at ingress to PCN domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering.

By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress = to network and network if congested will drop packets belonging to that = flow. Should not that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is = admitted into the network.

 

interesting.  so the expectation is that a PCN domain will = perform admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort.  I think that = approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective experiences with ISPs is different.

 

also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step = further, I assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN domain = because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution, it can cause = packet mis-ordering.

 

cheers,

 

-ken

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC50.4CDA6076-- --===============2074530809== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============2074530809==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 16:30:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C646E28C106; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:30:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D4128C106 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:30:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.991 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.991 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jda6nOqQ2pFn for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com (zcars04f.nortel.com [47.129.242.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94153A6994 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6MNUd804358; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:30:40 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:30:22 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB646517167848@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjsLJ2wEb6qNdjhQF+0btqb/W/TkAAJDlEQ References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07B9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: "ken carlberg" , Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Ken, What I was trying to say that if the PCN class is fully utilized, than new flows can be downgraded and use best effort. This means PCN treatment will not be applied to these packets including admission control. PCN based admission control should limit the amount of traffic into the PCN domain so that there is no reason to perform downgrading of flows once admitted, except under failure conditions, which I would prefer that we let flow termination address that condition. Under failure conditions most likely the best effort class will also be congested. Also having two mechanisms downgrading and flow termination working independently could bring instability into the system. Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 -----Original Message----- From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] Sent: July 22, 2008 2:56 PM To: philip.eardley@bt.com Cc: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03); pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Phil, > ken > it's expected that there'll be traffic that isnt PCN within the PCN- > domai (if i get your comment!). ok, we're in sync on that point. I just feel uncomfortable removing the option to downgrade packets in favor of dropping them given that a portion of a node's/link's resources is more than likely set aside for best effort, especially if the motivating factor for dropping is the *potential* for mis-ordering. if folks feel strongly for recommending a policy of dropping, fine. But I'd just like to point to down- grading as an option to consider. > as i understand it, all pkts in a flow follow the same ecmp path, so > there shouldnt be any misordering. my understanding is that this is configuration/implementation dependent. otherwise, I don't think we'd see documents like rfc-4928 (avoiding ECMP treatment in MPLS networks) spring up. cheers, -ken > > thanks > phil > > ________________________________ > > From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] > Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 13:41 > To: Jozef Babiarz > Cc: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote: > > > > Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN > domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. > By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for > that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network > if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not > that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted > into the network. > > > interesting. so the expectation is that a PCN domain will perform > admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be > treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. I think > that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective > experiences with ISPs is different. > > also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step further, I > assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN domain > because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution, > it can cause packet mis-ordering. > > cheers, > > -ken > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 16:44:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805023A6A09; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:44:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2033A6A09 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.993 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.993 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.006, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NkVOJ9HO0F2Q for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcars04e.nortel.com (zcars04e.nortel.com [47.129.242.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F3D3A6955 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6MNhJA14242; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:43:20 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:44:11 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651716784F@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07BC@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAwAREw0WAAHq6VDQALdEtg References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC32@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07BC@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: , Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org I think we need to be careful here. Under failure if we perform flow termination and downgrading independently than there is the possibility that too much traffic will removed from PCN service class. Also under failure conditions most likely the best effort service class is also heavily congested and the downgraded flow will experience high packet loss. I'm a bit uncomfortable with MAY. Would prefer to say that downgrading of flows once admitted is future work, like rate-adoption. Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 -----Original Message----- From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com] Sent: July 22, 2008 2:12 PM To: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03); pcn@ietf.org Subject: RE: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 joe follow up on on Option 1. if there's a failure and traffic is re-routed, then a link could get overloaded. question is what to do about this. flow termination of course possible. if PCN-domain not runnign flow termination, then question is whether it's worth having policing on PCN-interior-nodes as a possibility to protect against this. i guess your view is that this should only be a MAY, since policing funciton isn't something most core routers can do? thanks phil ________________________________ From: Jozef Babiarz [mailto:babiarz@nortel.com] Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 05:26 To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org Subject: RE: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Phil my views on PCN-interior-nodes and policing requirements. There is a dependency on how the new DSCP for PCN is defined. My assumption is that in the definition of the new DSCP there will be a statement that ECN semantics as defined in RFC 3168 do not apply and that this DSCP will use new ECN semantics as defined in the pcn-marking-behaviour and pcn-encoding-drafts. Option 1: If the Voice Admit DSCP is used than traffic that is marked with this DSCP is admission controlled. The newly defined Voice Admit DSCP can support two types of traffic, pcn-traffic that is admission controlled by PCN mechanisms and non-pcn-traffic that uses some other means for admission control. Option 1 does not require interior nodes do perform policing function as both traffic types are controlled by admission control and rates are enforced through policing at the ingress to PCN-domain. Option 2: If the new DSCP is defined in way so that PCN-admission controlled and non-admission controlled traffic can be marked with it, than non-admission controlled traffic that uses this new DSCP needs (MUST) to be policed on all interior-nodes. The policing function is required to limit the amount of non-admission controlled traffic that is allowed to be aggregated with PCN-traffic into queue on each link. If the group chooses to go with option 2, than we will need to also explain how metering and dropping will be done. E.g., meter only non-admission controlled traffic (non-pcn-traffic), meter both pcn-traffic and non-pcn-traffic and drop only non-pcn-traffic. Option 2 requires interior nodes to support egress policing function which most core routers do not have. Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: July 16, 2008 1:27 PM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 2nd of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt it's clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how about PCN-interior-nodes? So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or MAY? Why is traffic conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes? Because the traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest it). However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring there's always some capacity for lower priority traffic). Also, if only two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might choose to just do admission control. Flow termination would then rely on some other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate their flows because the perceived qos is bad). So MAY seems too weak to me. SHOULD means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item" So that seems ok to me. Comments? Phil/ _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 18:34:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124493A6927; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26DC13A685D for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:34:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.293 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.293 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.305, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V9FnFtEjp14G for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zrtps0kn.nortel.com (zrtps0kn.nortel.com [47.140.192.55]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86AA83A6927 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6N1Z3P15322; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 01:35:03 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:33:46 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651716787F@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C5@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAwAADYS5ABPlUHEA== References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C5@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: , Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0444149616==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0444149616== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC64.273008AC" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC64.273008AC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil wrote: [phil] also: Another reason that each PCN-node needs to police non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP (see baseline encoding draft). Otherwise the non-PCN-traffic could break the PCN admission control. Of course an operator might know that it never has any such traffic.=20 =20 So MAY seems too weak to me.=20 =20 SHOULD means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item" So that seems ok to me. =20 [Joe] See my previous email. If PCN and non-PCN-traffic that is NOT admission control share the same forwarding class, than interior nodes MUST police non-PCN-traffic that is not admission control using some other mechanism. If PCN and non-PCN-traffic which is admission control by some other means share the same forwarding class, than interior nodes DO NOT need to police non-PCN-traffic that is admission controlled at ingress to PCN domain. Suggestion is to allow both options and it's up to the network administrator to configure their network correctly. Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: July 16, 2008 1:34 PM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =20 Sorry, pushed send too quick, one more point added in-line =20 -----Original Message----- From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: 16 July 2008 18:27 To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =20 2nd of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 it's clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how about PCN-interior-nodes?=20 So the question is: should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or MAY? =20 Why is traffic conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes? Because the traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest it). However, you might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the rate above which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring there's always some capacity for lower priority traffic). Also, if only two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might choose to just do admission control. Flow termination would then rely on some other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate their flows because the perceived qos is bad). =20 [phil] also: Another reason that each PCN-node needs to police non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP (see baseline encoding draft). Otherwise the non-PCN-traffic could break the PCN admission control. Of course an operator might know that it never has any such traffic.=20 =20 So MAY seems too weak to me.=20 =20 SHOULD means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item" So that seems ok to me.=20 =20 Comments? Phil/ =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC64.273008AC Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Phil = wrote:

[phil] also: = Another reason that each PCN-node needs to police non-PCN-traffic that shares = the same DSCP (see baseline encoding draft). Otherwise the non-PCN-traffic could = break the PCN admission control. Of course an operator might know that it = never has any such traffic.

 

So MAY seems too = weak to me.

 

SHOULD means “that there may exist valid reasons in particular =
circumstances to ignore a particular item”

So that seems ok to = me.

 

[Joe] See my previous email. If PCN and non-PCN-traffic that is NOT admission control share the same forwarding = class, than interior nodes MUST police non-PCN-traffic that is not admission = control using some other mechanism.

If PCN and non-PCN-traffic which is admission control = by some other means share the same forwarding class, than interior nodes DO = NOT need to police non-PCN-traffic that is admission controlled at ingress = to PCN domain. Suggestion is to allow both options and it’s up to the = network administrator to configure their network = correctly.

Regards, = Joe
email:babiarz@nortel.com
Telephone:613-763-6098

From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: July 16, 2008 1:34 = PM
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue = 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

 

Sorry, pushed = send too quick, one more point added in-line

 

-----Original Message-----
From: = pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: 16 July 2008 = 18:27
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Issue 2 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

 

2nd= of several emails to try & close Open Issues on = http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

 

it’s clear the PCN-ingress-nodes MUST do traffic conditioning (policing). However, how = about PCN-interior-nodes?

So the question is: = should PCN-interior-node traffic conditioning be a MUST, SHOULD or = MAY?

 

Why is traffic = conditioning needed on PCN-interior-nodes?

Because the = traffic pattern might be sufficient to overload a link (not just pre-congest = it).

However, you = might argue that if a Pcn-node is overloaded, then flow termination will rapidly = bring the amount of pcn-traffic back below the PCN-excess-rate. So traffic = conditioning on PCN-interior-nodes would only be needed for a short period of time, = so perhaps an operator might choose not to do it. But in the meantime lower priority flows would be starved (can avoid starvation by setting the = rate above which pkts are dropped to be less than the line rate, ie ensuring = there’s always some capacity for lower priority traffic).  Also, if only = two encoding states (PCN-marked and not PCN-marked) are available, then the operator might choose to just do admission control. Flow termination = would then rely on some other mechanism (eg just waiting for end users to terminate = their flows because the perceived qos is bad).

 

[phil] also: = Another reason that each PCN-node needs to police non-PCN-traffic that shares = the same DSCP (see baseline encoding draft). Otherwise the non-PCN-traffic could = break the PCN admission control. Of course an operator might know that it = never has any such traffic.

 

So MAY seems too = weak to me.

 

SHOULD means “that there may exist valid reasons in particular =
circumstances to ignore a particular =
item”
So that seems ok to me. =

 
Comments?
<=
font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Phil/

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC64.273008AC-- --===============0444149616== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============0444149616==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 22 18:50:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D423A67F7; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:50:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2578F3A676A for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:50:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.337 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.337 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.261, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HHRyVFjA6Gby for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcars04e.nortel.com (zcars04e.nortel.com [47.129.242.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1721B3A6832 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6N1mpC20968; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 01:48:51 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:49:57 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651716788D@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C6@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAwAAED+gABPplX0A== References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C6@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: , Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1210826850==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1210826850== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC66.69E1B9E2" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC66.69E1B9E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See comments below. =20 Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: July 16, 2008 1:47 PM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =20 3rd (& last - phew) of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 the baseline encoding draft envisages that there may be non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP as PCN traffic. Question is whether we assume that PCN-interior-nodes will treat these two sorts of traffic the same as regards scheduling priority, or whether it's possible they might not be? [Joe] Interior-nodes will forward non-PCN and PCN traffic using the same scheduling priority. ECN field is not used for mapping packets to different queue (scheduling priority). =20 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.txt says: o The scheduling behaviour is coupled with the DSCP only. Therefore, the same scheduling and buffer management rules are applied for non-PCN-capable and PCN-capable traffic using the same PCN-enabled DSCP. [Joe] The above statement is correct. =20 This seems very reasonable to me.=20 However, since a PCN-interior-node has to classify (distinguish) PCN-pkts from non-PCN ones with the same DSCP (done by examining the ECN field) - therefore it would in theory be possible to schedule them differently. [Joe] Yes it would be possible. However core routers normally have only small number queues or scheduling classes (between 1 and 8) adding more requires additional hardware in the fast path.=20 =20 Also, I guess that "the same buffer management rules" means that when it comes to traffic conditioning (policing) on PCN-interior-nodes, then the PCN-pkts and non-PCN pkts (sharing the same DSCP) will also be treated the same. Again, this seems very reasonable to me. =20 =20 Comments? Thanks, Phil/ =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC66.69E1B9E2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Downgrading should only be done per = flow and at ingress to PCN domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet = mis-ordering.

By downgrading means that admission = control is not performed for that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to = network and network if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should = not that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted into the = network.

Regards, = Joe
email:babiarz@nortel.com
Telephone:613-763-6098

From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: July 16, 2008 1:03 = PM
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

 

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

Would like this draft to be WG doc towards WG milestone on marking behaviour. Think there are actually only a few = minor issues to clear up, ie doc is nearly done]. So am trying to clear them = up before ietf.

Have separated each Issue into a separate = email. They’re mainly prompted by Joe’s = comments.

 

This is 1st of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

 

Do we suggest downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action or not? (traffic conditioning = on all links in PCN-domain, including on PCN-ingress-node – where = something special /different might be done).

 

Currently the draft = says “if needed, then drop or downgrade pkts” (ie downgrade to a = lower priority behaviour aggregate)

As joe points = out:

- the danger of = downgrading is that pkts in a flow could get mis-ordered. So there’s an = argument for not giving this as a possibility. Or should downgrading be allowed as a possibility, but just mention the danger? what’s done in real = diffserv /mpls networks today?

- an additional = possible traffic conditioning action by the PCN-ingress-node is to downgrade a = *flow* (ie all pkts in a flow put = into lower BA). This seems a good thing to add to me.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EC66.69E1B9E2-- --===============1210826850== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============1210826850==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 23 00:17:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E223A6937; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:17:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A3128C102 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:17:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZtUTI-a6u0yc for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcmail23.telekom.de (tcmail23.telekom.de [217.6.95.237]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9B03A6937 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from S4DE8PSAANQ.mitte.t-com.de (S4DE8PSAANQ.mitte.t-com.de [10.151.180.166]) by tcmail21.telekom.de with ESMTP; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:18:36 +0200 Received: from S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de ([10.151.229.10]) by S4DE8PSAANQ.mitte.t-com.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:18:35 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:18:34 +0200 Message-Id: <1B6169C658325341A3B8066E23919E1C01880A57@S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de> In-Reply-To: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB646517167848@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjsLJ2wEb6qNdjhQF+0btqb/W/TkAAJDlEQAA+PSDA= References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net><9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com><4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07B9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB646517167848@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> From: "Geib, Ruediger" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jul 2008 07:18:35.0812 (UTC) FILETIME=[522DFE40:01C8EC94] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Joe, I'm not sure whether your proposal is a good idea. What I've = heard, QoS traffic is supposed to be accounted on incoming = interfaces. Now allowing a peer to demote PCN to Best Effort = opens the door for a misuse: incoming traffic is accounted = and charged as PCN and then demoted to BE (due to a "temporal" lack of PCN resources, of course). Allowing for this may = prevent deployment of PCN accross multiple domains if the = origin never learns that PCN transport is only = partially available. = The requirement would then be, that if PCN transport = can't be used due to temporal lack of PCN resources in one = domain along the end to end path, then it shouldn't be used = at all. = I also figure out that accounting get's rather complex if = temporal availability of valued added PCN transport along = different PCN enabled domains of an end to end path has to = be respected. Formulated differently: how to sell QoS if a = traffic of a user session crosses three domains and each = domain may but must not deliver the traffic of that = session with PCN transport? Indicating "network busy" should be the aim if the PCN = resources are fully utilised. The user should then have = the option to set up his session with another transport = quality, but that's entirely a matter of the service = he's using (and not a matter decided by the transport = provider). So all in all, I don't look at demotion to Best Effort = as a good idea unless it is signaled on service level. = The latter may require similar signaling and layer = interaction features as termination. Should that be = the case, then demotion to Best Effort may be discussed = in that context. Regards, Rudiger -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Joze= f Babiarz Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Juli 2008 01:30 An: ken carlberg; philip.eardley@bt.com Cc: pcn@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Ken, What I was trying to say that if the PCN class is fully utilized, than new flows can be downgraded and use best effort. This means PCN treatment will not be applied to these packets including admission control. PCN based admission control should limit the amount of traffic into the PCN domain so that there is no reason to perform downgrading of flows once admitted, except under failure conditions, which I would prefer that we let flow termination address that condition. Under failure conditions most likely the best effort class will also be congested. Also having two mechanisms downgrading and flow termination working independently could bring instability into the system. = Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 -----Original Message----- From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] = Sent: July 22, 2008 2:56 PM To: philip.eardley@bt.com Cc: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03); pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Phil, > ken > it's expected that there'll be traffic that isnt PCN within the PCN- = > domai (if i get your comment!). ok, we're in sync on that point. I just feel uncomfortable removing = the option to downgrade packets in favor of dropping them given that a = portion of a node's/link's resources is more than likely set aside for = best effort, especially if the motivating factor for dropping is the = *potential* for mis-ordering. if folks feel strongly for recommending = a policy of dropping, fine. But I'd just like to point to down- = grading as an option to consider. > as i understand it, all pkts in a flow follow the same ecmp path, so = > there shouldnt be any misordering. my understanding is that this is configuration/implementation = dependent. otherwise, I don't think we'd see documents like rfc-4928 = (avoiding ECMP treatment in MPLS networks) spring up. cheers, -ken > > thanks > phil > > ________________________________ > > From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] > Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 13:41 > To: Jozef Babiarz > Cc: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote: > > > = > Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN = > domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. > By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for > that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network = > if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not = > that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted = > into the network. > > > interesting. so the expectation is that a PCN domain will perform = > admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be = > treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. I think = > that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective = > experiences with ISPs is different. > > also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step further, I = > assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN domain = > because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution, = > it can cause packet mis-ordering. > > cheers, > > -ken > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 23 07:43:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6B53A68CD; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:43:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486273A68CD for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:43:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qU7JPAOt-kFr for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com (rtp-iport-1.cisco.com [64.102.122.148]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36AF3A6818 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:43:06 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,239,1215388800"; d="scan'208,217";a="15188376" Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2008 14:43:49 +0000 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6NEhnv1031018; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:43:49 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m6NEhlZu012054; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:43:49 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.20]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:43:48 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:43:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651716788D@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjnZc6ADYIwPFwxQ+24vtk1QKmGsAAADfAwAAED+gABPplX0AAbaONQ From: "Anna Charny (acharny)" To: "Jozef Babiarz" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jul 2008 14:43:48.0579 (UTC) FILETIME=[843AC330:01C8ECD2] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=17585; t=1216824229; x=1217688229; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=acharny@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Anna=20Charny=20(acharny)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[PCN]=20Issue=203=20on=20draft-eardley- pcn-marking-behaviour-01 |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Jozef=20Babiarz=22=20,=20,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20; bh=9VqNOHUWT3MtWKcP6ahLXvxxGOCv/LlGHUF8TD4BWKE=; b=TsVVh/SMieo39Ek7NqeLlEInAxWC9N9uDD7yyceLnPVTW89PgmuQg1QBhi qh4en+d3AZmii0uT3PuYM5gvEr62Cu0t70AJj3QP9qDVAIBfR6pQRmcax3ue bCZglE0fb2; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=acharny@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0681789097==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0681789097== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8ECD2.840109D4" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8ECD2.840109D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe, =20 =20 you say below=20 [Joe] Interior-nodes will forward non-PCN and PCN traffic using the same scheduling priority. ECN field is not used for mapping packets to different queue (scheduling priority). =20 Are you proposing to impose this constraint in the standard? Is it not overly constraining? =20 Anna=20 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jozef Babiarz Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:50 PM To: philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =09 =09 See comments below. =20 Regards, Joe=20 email:babiarz@nortel.com=20 Telephone:613-763-6098=20 =09 ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: July 16, 2008 1:47 PM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 =20 3rd (& last - phew) of several emails to try & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20 =20 the baseline encoding draft envisages that there may be non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP as PCN traffic. Question is whether we assume that PCN-interior-nodes will treat these two sorts of traffic the same as regards scheduling priority, or whether it's possible they might not be? [Joe] Interior-nodes will forward non-PCN and PCN traffic using the same scheduling priority. ECN field is not used for mapping packets to different queue (scheduling priority). =09 =20 =09 http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.txt says: o The scheduling behaviour is coupled with the DSCP only. Therefore, the same scheduling and buffer management rules are applied for non-PCN-capable and PCN-capable traffic using the same PCN-enabled DSCP. [Joe] The above statement is correct. =20 This seems very reasonable to me.=20 However, since a PCN-interior-node has to classify (distinguish) PCN-pkts from non-PCN ones with the same DSCP (done by examining the ECN field) - therefore it would in theory be possible to schedule them differently. [Joe] Yes it would be possible. However core routers normally have only small number queues or scheduling classes (between 1 and 8) adding more requires additional hardware in the fast path.=20 =20 Also, I guess that "the same buffer management rules" means that when it comes to traffic conditioning (policing) on PCN-interior-nodes, then the PCN-pkts and non-PCN pkts (sharing the same DSCP) will also be treated the same. Again, this seems very reasonable to me. =20 =20 Comments? Thanks, Phil/ =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8ECD2.840109D4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Joe, 
 
you say below = 
[Joe] =
Interior-nodes will forward non-PCN and PCN traffic using the same =
scheduling priority. ECN field is not used for mapping packets to =
different queue (scheduling priority).
 
Are you = proposing to=20 impose this constraint in the standard?  Is it not overly=20 constraining?
 
Anna

See comments = below.

 

Regards, = Joe
email:babiarz@nortel.com
Telephone:613-763-6098

From: = pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: July 16, 2008 1:47 = PM
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

 

3rd = (& last - phew) of several emails to try = & close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt

 

the baseline encoding draft =
envisages that there may be non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP as =
PCN traffic. Question is whether we assume that PCN-interior-nodes will =
treat these two sorts of traffic the same as regards scheduling =
priority, or whether it’s possible they might not =
be?
[Joe] Interior-nodes will forward =
non-PCN and PCN traffic using the same scheduling priority. ECN field is =
not used for mapping packets to different queue (scheduling =
priority).
          &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           =

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.t=
xt says:
   o  The =
scheduling behaviour is coupled with the DSCP =
only.
      Therefore, the =
same scheduling and buffer management rules =
are
      applied for =
non-PCN-capable and PCN-capable traffic using the =
same
      PCN-enabled =
DSCP.
[<=
/font>Joe] The above statement is =
correct.
 
This seems very reasonable to me. =

However, since a =
PCN-interior-node has to classify (distinguish) PCN-pkts from non-PCN =
ones with the same DSCP (done by examining the ECN field) – =
therefore it would in theory be possible to schedule them =
differently.
[Joe] Yes it would be possible. However =
core routers normally have only small number queues or scheduling =
classes (between 1 and 8) adding more requires additional hardware in =
the fast path. 
 
Also, I guess that “the same buffer =
management rules” means that when it comes to traffic conditioning =
(policing) on PCN-interior-nodes, then the PCN-pkts and non-PCN pkts =
(sharing the same DSCP) will also be treated the same. Again, this seems =
very reasonable to me.
 
 
Comments?
<=
font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial>Thanks,
Phil/

 

 

 

From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jozef=20 Babiarz
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:50 PM
To:=20 philip.eardley@bt.com; pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue = 3 on=20 draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

See = comments=20 below.

 

Regards,=20 Joe=20
email:babiarz@nortel.com
Telephone:613-763-6098 =

From:=20 pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 philip.eardley@bt.com
Sent: July 16, 2008 1:47 = PM
To: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: [PCN] Issue 3 on=20 = draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

=

 

3rd (&=20 last - phew) of several emails to try = &=20 close Open Issues on http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01.txt=20

 

the baseline encoding draft envisages that there may be =
non-PCN-traffic that shares the same DSCP as PCN traffic. Question is =
whether we assume that PCN-interior-nodes will treat these two sorts of =
traffic the same as regards scheduling priority, or whether it’s =
possible they might not be?
[Joe] =
Interior-nodes will forward non-PCN and PCN traffic using the same =
scheduling priority. ECN field is not used for mapping packets to =
different queue (scheduling =
priority).
           &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;          =

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02.t=
xt says:
   =
o  The scheduling behaviour is coupled with the DSCP =
only.
      Therefore, the same scheduling and =
buffer management rules are
      applied for non-PCN-capable and =
PCN-capable traffic using the =
same
      PCN-enabled =
DSCP.
[Joe] The above =
statement is correct.
 
This seems very reasonable to me. =

However, =
since a PCN-interior-node has to classify (distinguish) PCN-pkts from =
non-PCN ones with the same DSCP (done by examining the ECN field) =
– therefore it would in theory be possible to schedule them =
differently.
[Joe] Yes it would be possible. =
However core routers normally have only small number queues or =
scheduling classes (between 1 and 8) adding more requires additional =
hardware in the fast path. 
 
Also, I guess that “the same =
buffer management rules” means that when it comes to traffic =
conditioning (policing) on PCN-interior-nodes, then the PCN-pkts and =
non-PCN pkts (sharing the same DSCP) will also be treated the same. =
Again, this seems very reasonable to me.
 
 
Comments?
Thanks,
Phil/

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8ECD2.840109D4-- --===============0681789097== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============0681789097==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 23 09:31:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87F43A69B8; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:31:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7E23A69B8 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id syZpAWBA9sWm for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93993A698B for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389C2A064A for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:32:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D842A0649 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:32:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162B5198E06 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:32:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48875CDB.2020508@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:31:23 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pcn X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Subject: [PCN] downgrading packets or flows ? X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi, when downgrading pcn packets or whole pcn flows using signaling for the pcn class in case of congestion, this means we introduce another possibly complex mechanism because pcn does not work properly. Under normal operation, we should not experience congestion, in case of failures we can use flow termination. That's all. If we don't use flow termination, we have to live with potential congestion or could fight it somehow, but I don't think this should be part of the pcn architecture. Regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 23 10:06:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1C53A6901; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E0E3A6901 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:06:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KdOxF2UcZbTT for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8813A6818 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpe-071-077-051-004.nc.res.rr.com ([71.77.51.4]) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLhnd-0000Gf-5D; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:06:49 -0400 From: Steven Blake To: "Anna Charny (acharny)" In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:06:49 -0400 Message-Id: <1216832809.11218.8.camel@tachyon> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 10:43 -0400, Anna Charny (acharny) wrote: > Hi Joe, > > you say below > [Joe] Interior-nodes will forward non-PCN and PCN traffic using the same scheduling priority. > ECN field is not used for mapping packets to different queue (scheduling priority). > > Are you proposing to impose this constraint in the standard? Is it > not overly constraining? It should not necessarily be a mandatory constraint. But it might be a good assumption. Regards, // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 23 21:06:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907C83A68C9; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:06:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385B43A67B0 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.320, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vFy5yTLYnLfB for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6844A3A6778 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpe-071-077-051-004.nc.res.rr.com ([71.77.51.4]) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLs6r-0002Io-C5; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:07:21 -0400 From: Steven Blake To: "Anna Charny (acharny)" In-Reply-To: <1216832809.11218.8.camel@tachyon> References: <1216832809.11218.8.camel@tachyon> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:07:23 -0400 Message-Id: <1216872443.15229.2.camel@tachyon> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 3 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 13:06 -0400, Steven Blake wrote: > On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 10:43 -0400, Anna Charny (acharny) wrote: > > > Hi Joe, > > > > you say below > > [Joe] Interior-nodes will forward non-PCN and PCN traffic using the same scheduling priority. > > ECN field is not used for mapping packets to different queue (scheduling priority). > > > > Are you proposing to impose this constraint in the standard? Is it > > not overly constraining? > > It should not necessarily be a mandatory constraint. But it might be a > good assumption. I should clarify: it's a safe assumption that many routers will forward packets having the same DSCP value with the same PHB (irrespective of the value of the ECN bits). I anticipate resistance from the IETF community if we propose otherwise. Regards, // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 23 23:55:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB143A6988; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:55:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FFFA3A68D0 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:55:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iUuU-ZxDMUPF for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcmail23.telekom.de (tcmail23.telekom.de [217.6.95.237]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F5A3A6959 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from S4DE8PSAANQ.mitte.t-com.de (S4DE8PSAANQ.mitte.t-com.de [10.151.180.166]) by tcmail21.telekom.de with ESMTP; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:56:18 +0200 Received: from S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de ([10.151.229.10]) by S4DE8PSAANQ.mitte.t-com.de with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:56:18 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:56:17 +0200 Message-Id: <1B6169C658325341A3B8066E23919E1C01880D94@S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07BF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: [PCN] downgrading packets or flows ? Thread-Index: AcjqfVQAlkVkNmDUSHSeIR7QfmjFbQBquuFRAEuJpqA= References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07BF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Geib, Ruediger" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2008 06:56:18.0533 (UTC) FILETIME=[5F832950:01C8ED5A] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] downgrading packets or flows ? X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Phil, I try to sum up my position on downgrading: - if downgrading is applied, then to flows only. - if per flow treatment is required, then it is applicable at PCN ingress boundary nodes only. PCN core nodes perform DiffServ aggregate conditioning only. - if a flow is demoted to Best Effort by a PCN ingress boundary node, the reason is that it did not keep the agreed rate or flowspec. This is a per flow treatment rather than a DiffServ treatment and (to me) MUST be done if and only if it can be signaled by the control plane of that flow. Otherwise that flow MUST be policed to the agreed rate or flow spec. To me, demotion to Best Effort should be seen as a functionality of the service using PCN, but not as a PCN functionality. Arguments supporting my view have been given in one of my last mails, I don't want to repeat them here. Regards, Rudiger ---------- Michael wrote: --------------------------------------- Hi, when downgrading pcn packets or whole pcn flows using signaling for the pcn class in case of congestion, this means we introduce another possibly complex mechanism because pcn does not work properly. Under normal operation, we should not experience congestion, in case of failures we can use flow termination. That's all. If we don't use flow termination, we have to live with potential congestion or could fight it somehow, but I don't think this should be part of the pcn architecture. Regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 02:41:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8F33A69D8; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:41:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11563A693D for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.882 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.882 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mSKXdjDGx3fz for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (szxga04-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908663A69D8 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4I002G58AFRG@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:42:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4I00HBG8AF0V@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:42:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from h36145c ([10.70.39.88]) by szxml05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K4I00CIT8AFOX@szxml05-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:42:15 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:42:15 +0800 From: Fortune HUANG To: pcn@ietf.org Message-id: <016801c8ed71$8e2b7840$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcjtcKkGEuswOsKcQaqTkyc0zBxi0wAAKTTA Subject: [PCN] Comment about draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi all, The table in section 6 seems to show that if a packet contains the DSCP value DSCP1 or DSCP2 and Not-ECT(00) at the same time, it is a Not-PCN packet. +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ | DSCP | Not-ECT (00) | ECT(0) (10) | ECT(1) (01) | CE (11) | +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ | DSCP 1 | Not-PCN | NM(Not-ECT) | NM(CE) | ThM | | DSCP 2 | Not-PCN | NM(ECT(0)) | NM(ECT(1)) | ETM | +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ In this case, for each incoming packets, the interior node needs to identify whether it is a PCN packet or not by two factors: the DSCP, and the ECN bits. Because as is shown in the table, even if a packet contains the DSCP value DSCP1 or DSCP2, it can also be a Not-PCN packet. However, as is known to us all, one factor (i.e. the DSCP) is enough to identify a PCN packet. And it will improve the performance before putting a packet into the PCN queue by using only one factor to identify a PCN packet. IMO, Not-ECT(00) doesn't need to be used. I wonder if we could put the table in this way: +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ | DSCP | Not-ECT (00) | ECT(0) (10) | ECT(1) (01) | CE (11) | +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ | DSCP 1 | - | NM(Not-ECT) | NM(CE) | ThM | | DSCP 2 | - | NM(ECT(0)) | NM(ECT(1)) | ETM | | DSCP x | Not-PCN | Not-PCN | Not-PCN | Not-PCN | +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ NOTE: DSCPx is a DSCP codepoint other than DSCP1 and DSCP2. Best regards, Fortune _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 03:55:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA12E3A67DA; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A9C3A67DA for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.873, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by 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18:52:52 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:52:51 +0800 From: Fortune HUANG To: pcn@ietf.org Message-id: <016901c8ed7b$6bacb4a0$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcjtcKkGEuswOsKcQaqTkyc0zBxi0wAAKTTAAAJgFwA= Subject: Re: [PCN] Comment about draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org SGkgYWxsLAoKVGhlIHNhbWUgcHJvYmxlbSBhbHNvIGV4aXN0cyBpbiBzZWN0aW9uIDQgb2YKZHJh ZnQtbW9uY2FzdGVyLXBjbi1iYXNlbGluZS1lbmNvZGluZy0wMi4KCkJlc3QgUmVnYXJkcywKRm9y dHVuZQoKLS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tCreivP7IyzogcGNuLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21h 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24 Jul 2008 04:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4I00MHQDYFEC@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:44:39 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.18]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4I00CS8DYFRV@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:44:39 +0800 (CST) Received: from h36145c ([10.70.39.88]) by szxml03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K4I00I6KDYF5R@szxml03-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:44:39 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:44:39 +0800 From: Fortune HUANG To: pcn@ietf.org Message-id: <016b01c8ed82$a7aad020$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcjtcKkGEuswOsKcQaqTkyc0zBxi0wAAKTTAAAJgFwAAAIqTQAABXlOw Subject: Re: [PCN] Comment about draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org SGkgYWxsLAoKSW4gY2xhdXNlIDQgb2YgZHJhZnQtbW9uY2FzdGVyLXBjbi1iYXNlbGluZS1lbmNv ZGluZy0wMiwgdGhlcmUgaXMgYQpwYXJhZ3JhcGggYXMgZm9sbG93czoKICAgbyAgQW55IHBhY2tl dCB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCBQQ04gY2FwYWJsZSAobm90LVBDTikgYnV0IHdoaWNoIHNoYXJlcyB0aGUg c2FtZQpEaWZmU2VydiBjb2RlcG9pbnQgYXMgUENOIGNhcGFibGUgdHJhZmZpYyBNVVNUIGhhdmUg dGhlIEVDTiBmaWVsZCBzZXQgdG8gMDAuCgpGcm9tIG15IHBvaW50IG9mIHZpZXcsIHdlIGRvbid0 IG5lZWQgdGhpcyBraW5kIG9mIHBhY2tldCB3aGljaCBzaGFyZXMgdGhlCnNhbWUgRFNDUCBhcyBQ Q04gdHJhZmZpYyB3aGlsZSBpdCBpcyBub3QgUENOIHRyYWZmaWMuIEV2ZW4gaWYgd2Ugd2FudCB0 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[127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3D13A6961 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:50:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.734 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.734 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.560, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WiQMd9v+VAKF for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868C53A6957 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4I00JYJDINJT@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:35:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.12]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4I00DCEDIM56@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:35:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from h36145c ([10.70.39.88]) by szxml05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K4I004N6DILS0@szxml05-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:35:10 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:35:09 +0800 From: Fortune HUANG In-reply-to: <016901c8ed7b$6bacb4a0$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> To: pcn@ietf.org Message-id: <016a01c8ed81$54bb3c20$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcjtcKkGEuswOsKcQaqTkyc0zBxi0wAAKTTAAAJgFwAAAIqTQA== Subject: Re: [PCN] Comment about draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list 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XwpQQ04gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0ClBDTkBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3BjbgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18KUENOIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApQQ05AaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9wY24KCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fClBDTiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKUENOQGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcGNuCg== From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 05:25:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB6E3A680B; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6310F3A67FA for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:25:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.213 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.213 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.386, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DzSrefz+Njyq for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA233A680B for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.64]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:25:52 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:25:54 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016a01c8ed81$54bb3c20$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Comment about 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X19fX19fXw0KPiBQQ04gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IFBDTkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Bjbg0KPiANCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fClBDTiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKUENOQGlldGYub3Jn Cmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcGNuCg== From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 24 06:12:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54B33A69CC; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:12:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3583F3A68AF for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:12:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.327 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.708, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S3pXQlWbciMN for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B9F3A6A00 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4I00JVJH9HDX@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:56:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.18]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4I00D3XH9H56@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:56:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from h36145c ([10.70.39.88]) by szxml03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K4I00856H9D19@szxml03-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:56:02 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:56:01 +0800 From: Fortune HUANG In-reply-to: To: toby.moncaster@bt.com, pcn@ietf.org Message-id: <016f01c8ed8c$a076e550$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcjtcKkGEuswOsKcQaqTkyc0zBxi0wAAKTTAAAJgFwAAAIqTQAACyLwgAABU3NA= Subject: [PCN] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIENvbW1lbnQgYWJvdXQgZHJhZnQtbW9uY2FzdGVy?= =?gb2312?b?LXBjbi0zLXN0YXRlLWVuY29kaW5nLTAw?= X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: 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From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 25 03:03:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE053A689D; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 03:03:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55563A6848 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 03:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.106 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pvghyoxyTxFg for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 03:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551053A689D for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 03:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4K00JRS3Y3OJ@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:03:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0K4K001813Y37M@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:03:39 +0800 (CST) Received: from h36145c ([10.70.39.88]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K4K00JLX3Y27U@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for pcn@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:03:39 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:03:38 +0800 From: Fortune HUANG To: pcn@ietf.org Message-id: <01c001c8ee3d$b5c7e010$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-index: AcjuPbU2z6d81XrCR3umdOQAY6YTjg== Subject: [PCN] Comments about draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0394327369==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0394327369== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_4X8A3JBwuD9fINwwVcMxpQ)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_4X8A3JBwuD9fINwwVcMxpQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all, In section 7 of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04, the "Other admission control functions" and the "Other flow termination functions" are defined. But I feel uncomfortable with the name of these two functions. Why "Other" is used here? I wonder if we could replace these two wordings with "PCN-admission-control-node functions" and "PCN-flow-termination-node functions". In this way, it would be very convenient to refer to the two functions as "admission-control node" and "flow-termination node". Like the "ingress node" and the "egress node", the "admission-control node" and the "flow-termination node" do not mean they have to be a stand alone node. In practice, the "ingress node" and the "egress node" are always deployed with each other in the same boundary node. And in the same way, the "admission-control node" and the "flow-termination node" can be deployed in the boundary node, and can also be a stand alone node. When the "admission-control node" and/or the "flow-termination node" are deployed in the boundary node, of course they co-locate with the "ingress node" and the "egress node". Best regards, Fortune --Boundary_(ID_4X8A3JBwuD9fINwwVcMxpQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi all,

 

In section 7 of draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04, the “Other admission control functions” and the “Other flow termination functions” are defined.

But I feel uncomfortable with the name of these two functions. Why “Other” is used here?

 

I wonder if we could replace these two wordings with “PCN-admission-control-node functions” and “PCN-flow-termination-node functions”.

In this way, it would be very convenient to refer to the two functions as “admission-control node” and “flow-termination node”.

Like the “ingress node” and the “egress node”, the “admission-control node” and the “flow-termination node” do not mean they have to be a stand alone node.

In practice, the “ingress node” and the “egress node” are always deployed with each other in the same boundary node.

And in the same way, the “admission-control node” and the “flow-termination node” can be deployed in the boundary node, and can also be a stand alone node.

When the “admission-control node” and/or the “flow-termination node” are deployed in the boundary node, of course they co-locate with the “ingress node” and the “egress node”.

 

Best regards,
Fortune

 

--Boundary_(ID_4X8A3JBwuD9fINwwVcMxpQ)-- --===============0394327369== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============0394327369==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 25 23:58:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A315E3A698B; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 23:58:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245353A698B for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 23:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16tA-8YEvOWh for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 23:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (mailgw4.ericsson.se [193.180.251.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B3E3A696A for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2008 23:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id EFD41204DE; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:58:58 +0200 (CEST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-ae999bb000004ec0-5f-488acb325d99 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id C5B8F204B6; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:58:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw109.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.2]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:58:58 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:58:57 +0200 Message-ID: <026F8EEDAD2C4342A993203088C1FC0507FB71BC@esealmw109.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 thread-index: AcjsLJ+NuFnAxg4xTqGM8fBvK4WmOACvw0KA References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net><9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com><4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07B9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: "Ingemar Johansson S" To: "ken carlberg" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2008 06:58:58.0589 (UTC) FILETIME=[13BD44D0:01C8EEED] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Going through the flood of emails after the vacation so I may not have picked up the main issue here. I guess reordering and the severity depends on the appliation of the transport. For instance some TCP implementations does not work well with reordering. For UDP the severity of this issue depends more or less on the implementation in the receiver. If the jitterbuffer is well implemented and has the ability to adapt fairly fast, the user will only expect a larger delay (as long as the receiver jitter buffer does not overflow). In this case reordering is not a big issue, there are however a few "if"s and "but"s and I don't believe that one can in general say that reordeing is not an issue. I do however believe that reordering is better that packet drop. /Ingemar > -----Original Message----- > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of ken carlberg > Sent: den 22 juli 2008 20:56 > To: philip.eardley@bt.com > Cc: pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > Phil, > > > ken > > it's expected that there'll be traffic that isnt PCN within > the PCN- > > domai (if i get your comment!). > > ok, we're in sync on that point. I just feel uncomfortable > removing the option to downgrade packets in favor of dropping > them given that a portion of a node's/link's resources is > more than likely set aside for best effort, especially if the > motivating factor for dropping is the > *potential* for mis-ordering. if folks feel strongly for > recommending a policy of dropping, fine. But I'd just like > to point to down- grading as an option to consider. > > > as i understand it, all pkts in a flow follow the same ecmp > path, so > > there shouldnt be any misordering. > > my understanding is that this is configuration/implementation > dependent. otherwise, I don't think we'd see documents like > rfc-4928 (avoiding ECMP treatment in MPLS networks) spring up. > > cheers, > > -ken > > > > > > thanks > > phil > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] > > Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 13:41 > > To: Jozef Babiarz > > Cc: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > > > > > > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote: > > > > > > > > Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN > > domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. > > By downgrading means that admission control is not > performed for that > > flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network if > > congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not that > > downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is > admitted into the > > network. > > > > > > interesting. so the expectation is that a PCN domain will perform > > admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be > > treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. I > think that > > approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective > experiences > > with ISPs is different. > > > > also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step further, I > > assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the > PCN domain > > because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a > solution, it > > can cause packet mis-ordering. > > > > cheers, > > > > -ken > > > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 26 14:17:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3273A69A2; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:17:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A4E3A69A2 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EI1LuKRKDJyq for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcars04e.nortel.com (zcars04e.nortel.com [47.129.242.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7DC63A6841 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6QLFiJ09455; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:15:44 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:13:29 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB646517261FA1@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1B6169C658325341A3B8066E23919E1C01880A57@S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Thread-Index: AcjsLJ2wEb6qNdjhQF+0btqb/W/TkAAJDlEQAA+PSDAAjAW8UA== References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC0329F8C3@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net><9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB64651710CC16@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com><4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07B9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB646517167848@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> <1B6169C658325341A3B8066E23919E1C01880A57@S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: "Geib, Ruediger" Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0060035890==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0060035890== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8EF64.73895915" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EF64.73895915 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ruediger, see my comment below. Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 -----Original Message----- From: Geib, Ruediger [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@t-systems.com]=20 Sent: July 23, 2008 3:19 AM To: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03) Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: AW: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Joe, I'm not sure whether your proposal is a good idea. What I've=20 heard, QoS traffic is supposed to be accounted on incoming=20 interfaces. Now allowing a peer to demote PCN to Best Effort=20 opens the door for a misuse: incoming traffic is accounted=20 and charged as PCN and then demoted to BE (due to a "temporal" lack of PCN resources, of course). Allowing for this may=20 prevent deployment of PCN across multiple domains if the=20 origin never learns that PCN transport is only=20 partially available. [Joe] You raised a valid point. I was assuming that if a flow was going = to be downgraded, it would be at flow admission time and admission = control signalling would know about it. =20 The requirement would then be, that if PCN transport=20 can't be used due to temporal lack of PCN resources in one=20 domain along the end to end path, then it shouldn't be used=20 at all.=20 [Joe] Agree. If a new call is blocked from entering the PCN domain, = application signalling could try a second time. This time using Best = Effort or a service class that does not support PCN. =20 I also figure out that accounting get's rather complex if=20 temporal availability of valued added PCN transport along=20 different PCN enabled domains of an end to end path has to=20 be respected. Formulated differently: how to sell QoS if a=20 traffic of a user session crosses three domains and each=20 domain may but must not deliver the traffic of that=20 session with PCN transport? Indicating "network busy" should be the aim if the PCN=20 resources are fully utilised. The user should then have=20 the option to set up his session with another transport=20 quality, but that's entirely a matter of the service=20 he's using (and not a matter decided by the transport=20 provider). [Joe] In full agreement with the above method of operation. So all in all, I don't look at demotion to Best Effort=20 as a good idea unless it is signaled on service level.=20 The latter may require similar signaling and layer=20 interaction features as termination. Should that be=20 the case, then demotion to Best Effort may be discussed=20 in that context. Regards, Rudiger -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von = Jozef Babiarz Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Juli 2008 01:30 An: ken carlberg; philip.eardley@bt.com Cc: pcn@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Ken, What I was trying to say that if the PCN class is fully utilized, than new flows can be downgraded and use best effort. This means PCN treatment will not be applied to these packets including admission control. PCN based admission control should limit the amount of traffic into the PCN domain so that there is no reason to perform downgrading of flows once admitted, except under failure conditions, which I would prefer that we let flow termination address that condition. Under failure conditions most likely the best effort class will also be congested. Also having two mechanisms downgrading and flow termination working independently could bring instability into the system. =20 Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 -----Original Message----- From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk]=20 Sent: July 22, 2008 2:56 PM To: philip.eardley@bt.com Cc: Babiarz, Jozef (CAR:0S03); pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 Phil, > ken > it's expected that there'll be traffic that isnt PCN within the PCN-=20 > domai (if i get your comment!). ok, we're in sync on that point. I just feel uncomfortable removing =20 the option to downgrade packets in favor of dropping them given that a =20 portion of a node's/link's resources is more than likely set aside for =20 best effort, especially if the motivating factor for dropping is the =20 *potential* for mis-ordering. if folks feel strongly for recommending =20 a policy of dropping, fine. But I'd just like to point to down-=20 grading as an option to consider. > as i understand it, all pkts in a flow follow the same ecmp path, so =20 > there shouldnt be any misordering. my understanding is that this is configuration/implementation =20 dependent. otherwise, I don't think we'd see documents like rfc-4928 =20 (avoiding ECMP treatment in MPLS networks) spring up. cheers, -ken > > thanks > phil > > ________________________________ > > From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] > Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 13:41 > To: Jozef Babiarz > Cc: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote: > > > =09 > Downgrading should only be done per flow and at ingress to PCN =20 > domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet mis-ordering. > By downgrading means that admission control is not performed for > that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and network =20 > if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should not =20 > that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is admitted =20 > into the network. > > > interesting. so the expectation is that a PCN domain will perform =20 > admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will be =20 > treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort. I think =20 > that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective =20 > experiences with ISPs is different. > > also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step further, I =20 > assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN domain =20 > because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution, =20 > it can cause packet mis-ordering. > > cheers, > > -ken > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EF64.73895915 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PCN] Issue 1 on = draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

Ruediger, see my comment below.

Regards, Joe

email:babiarz@nortel.com

Telephone:613-763-6098

-----Original Message-----
From: Geib, Ruediger [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@t-system= s.com]
Sent: July 23, 2008 3:19 AM
To: Babiarz, Jozef = (CAR:0S03)
Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: AW: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

Joe,

I'm not sure whether your proposal is a good idea. What I've =

heard, QoS traffic is supposed to be accounted on incoming =

interfaces. Now allowing a peer to demote PCN to Best Effort =

opens the door for a misuse: incoming traffic is accounted

and charged as PCN and then demoted to BE (due to a = "temporal"

lack of PCN resources, of course). Allowing for this may =

prevent deployment of PCN across multiple domains if = the

origin never learns that PCN transport is only

partially available.

[Joe] You raised a valid point. I was assuming that = if a flow was going to be downgraded, it would be at flow admission time = and admission control signalling would know about it.  =

The requirement would then be, that if PCN transport =

can't be used due to temporal lack of PCN resources in one

domain along the end to end path, then it shouldn't be used =

at = all.

[Joe] Agree. If a new call is blocked from entering = the PCN domain, application signalling could try a second time. This = time using Best Effort or a service class that does not support = PCN.   

I = also figure out that accounting get's rather complex if =

temporal availability of valued added PCN transport along =

different PCN enabled domains of an end to end path has to =

be = respected. Formulated differently: how to sell QoS if a

traffic of a user session crosses three domains and each =

domain may but must not deliver the traffic of that =

session with PCN transport?

Indicating "network busy" should be the aim if the PCN =

resources are fully utilised. The user should then have

the option to set up his session with another transport =

quality, but that's entirely a matter of the service =

he's using (and not a matter decided by the transport =

provider).

[Joe] In full agreement with the above method of = operation.

So = all in all, I don't look at demotion to Best Effort

as = a good idea unless it is signaled on service level.

The latter may require similar signaling and layer =

interaction features as termination. Should that be =

the case, then demotion = to Best Effort may be discussed

in that context.

Regards,

Rudiger

-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----

Von: = pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] Im = Auftrag von Jozef = Babiarz

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Juli 2008 01:30

An: ken carlberg; = philip.eardley@bt.com

Cc: pcn@ietf.org

Betreff: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on = draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

Ken,

What I was trying to say that if the PCN class is fully utilized, = than

new flows can be downgraded and use best effort. This means PCN

treatment will not be applied to these packets including = admission

control. PCN based admission control should limit the amount of = traffic

into the PCN domain so that there is no reason to perform = downgrading of

flows once admitted, except under failure conditions, which I would

prefer that we let flow termination address that condition. = Under

failure conditions most likely the best effort class will also = be

congested. Also having two mechanisms downgrading and flow = termination

working independently = could bring instability into the system. 

Regards, Joe

email:babiarz@nortel.com

Telephone:613-763-6098

-----Original Message-----

From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] =

Sent: July 22, 2008 2:56 PM

To: philip.eardley@bt.com

Cc: Babiarz, Jozef = (CAR:0S03); pcn@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on = draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

Phil,

> ken

> it's expected that there'll be traffic that isnt PCN within = the PCN-

> domai (if i get your comment!).

ok, we're in sync on = that point.  I just feel uncomfortable removing  =

the option to downgrade packets in favor of dropping them given = that a 

portion of a node's/link's resources is more than likely set aside = for 

best effort, especially if the motivating factor for dropping is the 

*potential* for mis-ordering.  if folks feel strongly for = recommending 

a = policy of dropping, fine.  But I'd just like to point to down- =

grading as an option to consider.

> as i understand it, all pkts in a flow follow the same ecmp = path, so  =

> there shouldnt be any misordering.

my = understanding is that this is configuration/implementation  =

dependent.  otherwise, I don't think we'd  see documents = like rfc-4928 

(avoiding ECMP treatment in MPLS networks) spring = up.

cheers,

-ken


>

> thanks

> phil

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk]

> Sent: Tue 22/07/2008 13:41

> To: Jozef = Babiarz

> Cc: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R; pcn@ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [PCN] Issue 1 on draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01

>

>

>

> On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Jozef Babiarz wrote:

>

>

>      

>       Downgrading should only be done = per flow and at ingress to PCN 

> domain. PCN mechanism should not cause packet = mis-ordering.

>       By downgrading means = that admission control is not = performed for

> that flow, DSCP value is changed at ingress to network and = network 

> if congested will drop packets belonging to that flow. Should = not 

> that downgrading needs to be performed before the flow is = admitted 

> into the network.

>

>

> interesting.  so the expectation is that a PCN domain = will perform 

> admission control on *all* ingress flows, and no flow(s) will = be 

> treated (segmented, traffic engineered) as best effort.  = I think 

> that approach is a bit idealistic, but perhaps our respective 

> experiences with ISPs is different.

>

> also, if we take the concern about mis-ordering one step = further, I 

> assume you would highly discourage the use of ECMP in the PCN = domain 

> because even though its out of scope of PCN as part of a solution,  =

> it can cause packet mis-ordering.

>

> = cheers,

>

> = -ken

>

_______________________________________________

PCN = mailing list

PCN@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/pcn

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8EF64.73895915-- --===============0060035890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============0060035890==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 26 14:32:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062293A69A2; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:32:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9952B3A6ABA for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:32:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ikqdl1xRUA6a for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcars04e.nortel.com (zcars04e.nortel.com [47.129.242.56]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3500D3A69A2 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6QLFkJ09458; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:15:46 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:13:29 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB646517261FA2@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1B6169C658325341A3B8066E23919E1C01880D94@S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] downgrading packets or flows ? Thread-Index: AcjqfVQAlkVkNmDUSHSeIR7QfmjFbQBquuFRAEuJpqAAXC0P4A== References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07BF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <1B6169C658325341A3B8066E23919E1C01880D94@S4DE8PSAANK.mitte.t-com.de> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: "Geib, Ruediger" , Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] downgrading packets or flows ? X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Phil, I'm in agreement with Ruediger on downgrading. Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 -----Original Message----- From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Geib, Ruediger Sent: July 24, 2008 2:56 AM To: philip.eardley@bt.com Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] downgrading packets or flows ? Phil, I try to sum up my position on downgrading: - if downgrading is applied, then to flows only. - if per flow treatment is required, then it is applicable at PCN ingress boundary nodes only. PCN core nodes perform DiffServ aggregate conditioning only. - if a flow is demoted to Best Effort by a PCN ingress boundary node, the reason is that it did not keep the agreed rate or flowspec. This is a per flow treatment rather than a DiffServ treatment and (to me) MUST be done if and only if it can be signaled by the control plane of that flow. Otherwise that flow MUST be policed to the agreed rate or flow spec. To me, demotion to Best Effort should be seen as a functionality of the service using PCN, but not as a PCN functionality. Arguments supporting my view have been given in one of my last mails, I don't want to repeat them here. Regards, Rudiger ---------- Michael wrote: --------------------------------------- Hi, when downgrading pcn packets or whole pcn flows using signaling for the pcn class in case of congestion, this means we introduce another possibly complex mechanism because pcn does not work properly. Under normal operation, we should not experience congestion, in case of failures we can use flow termination. That's all. If we don't use flow termination, we have to live with potential congestion or could fight it somehow, but I don't think this should be part of the pcn architecture. Regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 27 23:48:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BAF28C194; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:48:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE3D28C194 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:48:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.775 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.775 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, MANGLED_TOOL=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k7Glxnl5ayyf for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C6128C191 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.70]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:48:55 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.196.177]) by i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:48:55 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 121722773550; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:48:55 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.192.104]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6S6mVJj026921; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:48:53 +0100 Message-Id: <200807280648.m6S6mVJj026921@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:20:00 +0100 To: "PCN IETF list" , pwe3@ietf.org, ipsec@ietf.org From: Bob Briscoe Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2008 06:48:55.0878 (UTC) FILETIME=[01525E60:01C8F07E] Cc: tsvwg IETF list Subject: [PCN] Fwd: Updated: ECN Tunnelling I-D relevant to PCN, PWE3, IPsec X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org PCN, PWE3, IPsec lists, Just notifying you of an I-D just posted that could become relevant to each of your w-gs (if it becomes a w-g item - it's still an individual draft). See posting below for details. You might choose to wait to see whether it becomes a tsvwg WG item before reading, or you might want to help (or hinder!) it becoming a WG item. The standards action stuff is in 2 pages from S.5 to S.7. Pls cross-post any discussion that affects your w-g to at least. Cheers Bob >Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:00:38 +0100 >To: "tsvwg IETF list" >From: Bob Briscoe >Subject: Updated: ECN Tunnelling I-D relevant to PCN, PWE3, IPsec > >Tsvwg (also relevant to PCN, PWE3 & IPsec - but pls discuss on tsvwg), > >Layered Encapsulation of Congestion Notification > >(intended for standards track) > >Abstract and summary of diffs pasted below. > >At the last -00 rev, on the tsvwg list there was unanimous support >and no detractors for the primary proposal to bring the ECN >behaviour of IP in IP tunnels into line with IPsec tunnels. However, >many voiced concerns about secondary aspects of the -00 draft. I >believe I've fixed them all (with considerable help from David Black >and RFC2983), but I've probably added more ;) > >That was a year ago. The ADs suggested, and I agreed, that we should >let it lie until PCN wire protocol was clearer (in case there was an >interaction). PCN's just become clearer. So I've rev'd this one back to life. > >I'm about to go offline until Dublin starts, so I'll pick up any >discussion then. > > >Bob > > >Abstract > > This document redefines how the explicit congestion notification > (ECN) field of the outer IP header of a tunnel should be constructed. > It brings all IP in IP tunnels (v4 or v6) into line with the way > IPsec tunnels now construct the ECN field. It includes a thorough > analysis of the reasoning for this change and the implications. It > also gives guidelines on the encapsulation of IP congestion > notification by any outer header, whether encapsulated in an IP > tunnel or in a lower layer header. Following these guidelines should > help interworking, if the IETF or other standards bodies specify any > new encapsulation of congestion notification. > > >Changes From -00 to -01: > > * Related everything conceptually to the uniform and pipe models > of RFC2983 on Diffserv Tunnels, and completely removed the > dependence of tunnelling behaviour on the presence of any in- > path load regulation by using the [1 - Before] [2 - Outer] > function placement concepts from RFC2983. > > * Added specifc cases where the existing standards limit new > proposals. > > * Added sub-structure to Introduction (Need for Rationalisation, > Roadmap), added new Introductory subsection on "Scope" and > improved clarity > > * Added Design Guidelines for New Encapsulations of Congestion > Notification > > * Considerably clarified the Backward Compatibility section > > * Considerably extended the Security Considerations section > > * Summarised the primary rationale much better in the conclusions > > * Added numerous extra acknowledgements > > * Added Appendix A. "Why resetting CE on encapsulation harms > PCN", Appendix B. "Contribution to Congestion across a Tunnel" > and Appendix C. "Ideal Decapsulation Rules" > > * Changed Appendix A "In-path Load Regulation" to "Non-Dependence > of Tunnelling on In-path Load Regulation" and added sub-section > on "Dependence of In-Path Load Regulation on Tunnelling" > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research >B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 645196 ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 645196 _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 07:55:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1725E3A6A91; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:55:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C8E3A6ACE for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j-fl-aBCf30Y for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCB33A6A91 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:55:52 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:53:03 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 (mainly about traffic conditioning) Thread-Index: AcjwwaLdwERn8vbbTn24a/KRLRXePg== From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2008 14:55:52.0751 (UTC) FILETIME=[07EF63F0:01C8F0C2] Subject: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 (mainly about traffic conditioning) X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Some of us met this morning to talk about PCN. We discussed the marking behaviours and encoding drafts. On the former [draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01]: - we would like this to become a WG document as soon as possible. We mainly discussed changes to the traffic conditioning section. Basic proposal is to simplify this section. I wanted to quickly summarise what I think we agreed, in order to get feedback before the WG meeting on Thursday. First, the PCN-interior-node behaviour: - basic goal of PCN is to keep PCN-traffic within the PCN-threshold-rate on each link in the PCN-domain - If there's too much PCN-traffic on a link (eg due to a re-route after a failure), then either the flow termination mechanism kicks in, or else the queue will do its normal action when overloaded, typically tail drop. (The current draft talks about metering and dropping, but it's too much complexity to insist this is done on every link and indeed it should rarely be necessary, especially if the flow termination mechanism is in use.) - Using the same capacity for other traffic (ie sharing it with traffic at same or higher priority as PCN) - there should be a mechanism to limit this traffic but it doesn't need to be part of the PCN documents how this is done. - Current draft talks about downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action on PCN-interior-nodes. But we don't need to mention downgrading. Since overloaded PCN-traffic is tail dropped from queue, whilst non-PCN traffic is dealt with by some mechanism outside the scope of the draft. - for non-PCN-traffic, basically we just say "see other docs". Appendix could explain this a bit more, eg reference the Diffserv architecture and [draft-ietf-tsvwg-admitted-realtime-dscp]. Something analogous to S2.1 of the latter, eg could have EF & PCN in different queues & limit the scheduler rate, or in the same queue and police EF. PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning: - Discussion of PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning would move to an Appendix. Ideally this text would move to a separate doc about the edge behaviour, signalling aspects etc, however such a document doesn't exist at the moment. So worth keeping the text in an appendix. - The text about policing of PCN-traffic by ingress is a SHOULD. (Current doc has a MUST, this is felt to be too over-prescriptive. Policing has an implementation cost, and operator may want to handle this differently, eg policing per ingress-egress-aggregate at the ingress instead of per flow.) also, the third bullet needs to say dropping or downgrading flows (not packets). - The text about policing of non-PCN-traffic by the ingress can be deleted. This should just be a reference to the appropriate Diffserv documents. Other changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 - the 'classify function' is re-named to 'behaviour aggregate classifier' (function done on all PCN-links). This is thought more consistent with diffserv terminology. Whereas 'classify' is more typically used to mean 5-tuple style classification that would only be done at the domain ingress. - Drop the bullet that "PCN-packets that are dropped SHOULD NOT be metered by the Excess traffic meter". Since the overloaded pkts are tail dropped, it's impractical for the excess traffic meter to know that they'll be dropped. (The issue that Michael found can still be mentioned in the Appendix.) comments? Thanks phil _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 08:50:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C7313A6A96; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:50:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1CF3A6A03 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:50:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E+tbJPc9-uQx for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C6F28C1B5 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7160A05DA; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:50:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0A5A05D1; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:50:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905B7198E01; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:50:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488DEA6A.3060502@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:48:58 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com, pcn References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Subject: Re: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 (mainly about traffic conditioning) X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > Some of us met this morning to talk about PCN. We discussed the marking behaviours and encoding drafts. > > > > On the former [draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01]: > > - we would like this to become a WG document as soon as possible. > > agree > > > We mainly discussed changes to the traffic conditioning section. Basic proposal is to simplify this section. I wanted to quickly summarise what I think we agreed, in order to get feedback before the WG meeting on Thursday. > > > > First, the PCN-interior-node behaviour: > > - basic goal of PCN is to keep PCN-traffic within the PCN-threshold-rate on each link in the PCN-domain > I think you mean the reference rate for the threshold implementation of the exhaustive marker, right? Is it here relevant whether this is the admissible or supportable rate? I don't think so. My usual remark: the names for the thresholds can still be improved ... > - If there's too much PCN-traffic on a link (eg due to a re-route after a failure), then either the flow termination mechanism kicks in, or else the queue will do its normal action when overloaded, typically tail drop. (The current draft talks about metering and dropping, but it's too much complexity to insist this is done on every link and indeed it should rarely be necessary, especially if the flow termination mechanism is in use.) > agree > - Using the same capacity for other traffic (ie sharing it with traffic at same or higher priority as PCN) - there should be a mechanism to limit this traffic but it doesn't need to be part of the PCN documents how this is done. > agree > - Current draft talks about downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action on PCN-interior-nodes. But we don't need to mention downgrading. Since overloaded PCN-traffic is tail dropped from queue, whilst non-PCN traffic is dealt with by some mechanism outside the scope of the draft. > agree > - for non-PCN-traffic, basically we just say "see other docs". Appendix could explain this a bit more, eg reference the Diffserv architecture and [draft-ietf-tsvwg-admitted-realtime-dscp]. Something analogous to S2.1 of the latter, eg could have EF & PCN in different queues & limit the scheduler rate, or in the same queue and police EF. > > agree > > > PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning: > > - Discussion of PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning would move to an Appendix. Ideally this text would move to a separate doc about the edge behaviour, signalling aspects etc, however such a document doesn't exist at the moment. So worth keeping the text in an appendix. > Agree. > - The text about policing of PCN-traffic by ingress is a SHOULD. (Current doc has a MUST, this is felt to be too over-prescriptive. Policing has an implementation cost, and operator may want to handle this differently, eg policing per ingress-egress-aggregate at the ingress instead of per flow.) also, the third bullet needs to say dropping or downgrading flows (not packets). > ok > - The text about policing of non-PCN-traffic by the ingress can be deleted. This should just be a reference to the appropriate Diffserv documents. > agree > > > Other changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > - the 'classify function' is re-named to 'behaviour aggregate classifier' (function done on all PCN-links). This is thought more consistent with diffserv terminology. Whereas 'classify' is more typically used to mean 5-tuple style classification that would only be done at the domain ingress. > agree > - Drop the bullet that "PCN-packets that are dropped SHOULD NOT be metered by the Excess traffic meter". Since the overloaded pkts are tail dropped, it's impractical for the excess traffic meter to know that they'll be dropped. (The issue that Michael found can still be mentioned in the Appendix.) > agree Regards, Michael > > > comments? > > Thanks > > phil > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 08:52:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACE73A6A1D; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:52:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9ED3A6A1D for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:52:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.024 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.024 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WpS9Aocs9KV4 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (mailgw4.ericsson.se [193.180.251.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2407A3A6982 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 091F2201CC for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:52:34 +0200 (CEST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-ab993bb000004ec0-de-488deb41979e Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id E0B0F20089 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:52:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw109.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.2]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:52:33 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:52:31 +0200 Message-ID: <026F8EEDAD2C4342A993203088C1FC0507FB7635@esealmw109.eemea.ericsson.se> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re : draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00.txt thread-index: AcjwyfHFaCMu2hCiRW633NthaAJq3w== From: "Ingemar Johansson S" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2008 15:52:33.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[F30B0EA0:01C8F0C9] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [PCN] Re : draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Reading chapter 9 in draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 (security cons= iderations). = Another transport that may use the nonce is DCCP with CCID 3 (see section 9= in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4342 ) That said, ECN nonce is probably only useful in a client-server scenario as= it builds on some kind of trust relationship. For normal UDP transport suc= h as VoIP between two "untrusted" clients I see very little use for the ECN= nonce. Besides this I would say that this is probably a quite neat solution to the= e2e ECN preservation problem and to some extent it may be possible to also= be possible for atleast the PCN egress nodes to do some additional policin= g on flows that don't comply to the ThM and Etm marks but this is probably = a later headache. /Ingemar ******************************************* = Ingemar Johansson = Senior Research Engineer, IETF "nethead" = EAB/TVP - Multimedia Technologies = Ericsson Research Ericsson AB = Box 920 S-971 28 Lule=E5, Sweden = Tel: +46 (0)8 4043042 = ECN: 850-43042 = ECC: 850-43074 = Mobile: +46 (0)730 783289 = ******************************************* = _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 09:01:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28BED28C1DB; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADBA28C1DD for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:01:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SFQ5qr9JnbNI for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491CD28C153 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFE1198E09 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:01:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC31198E01 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:01:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50F1198DF1 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:01:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:02 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pcn X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Subject: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I think the current PCN nomenclature can still be improved. I cite from the architecture draft-04: "The admission control mechanism limits the PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its PCN-threshold-rate and the flow termination mechanism limits the" PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its PCN-excess-rate." Stupid question: is single-marking configured with a PCN-threshold-rate or PCN-excess-rate? According to this description the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the PCN-threshold rate. That is certainly not intended by the names. I think this simple example shows that the current nomenclature is not yet perfect. A better approach is described in our overview paper. http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf I'm not at the meeting, but maybe you find some time to discuss this issue there? I request a small change: PCN-threshold-rate -> admissible-rate PCN-excess-rate -> supportable rate The reference rates of the excess or exhaustive (threshold) markers are set to one of these values depending on what should be done with the marking. Threshold marking -> exhaustive marking I find exhaustive marking better than threshold marking since this term does not say nothing about implementation. Ramp marking could also be used although we have not found any benefit when doing that. Good names are important to explain and sell stuff to other people. Sometimes to other researchers, sometimes to customers ... Regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 02:09:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DC928C13E; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:09:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251B828C13E for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:09:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oyFzrQZRcWLx for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F543A6B51 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.63]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:09:11 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:09:11 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) Thread-Index: AcjwwaLdwERn8vbbTn24a/KRLRXePgAlvA7F References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2008 09:09:11.0959 (UTC) FILETIME=[C41C2A70:01C8F15A] Subject: Re: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Further to this just to let you all know that we are still trying to see if we can come to some agreement between the 3 main current encoding options: baseline encoding - 2 current suggestions: 1) Make one of the ECT codepoints experimental or local use 2) Specify rules for the two ECT codepoints such that you HAVE to mark all codepoints to the higher threshold but leave the behaviour for the lower thresold undefined (Note I am avoiding using ANY nomenclature here). 3 state encoding - allows limited end-to-end ECN. It also allows one to do egress-based measurement of admission marking rate to make admission decisions (simulatins seem to suggest this behaves better in many situations). However this uses a messy solution of 1 standards and one local use DSCP and requires changes between them. There is also some debate about which marking goes in which DSCP. PSDM - uses a single DSCP which is a definite pro. However to be able to use both admission and termination marking, you need an external mechanism to correctly identify which marking a packet originally had. One suggestion that needs careful throught is that there may be a mechanism by which we can merge this encding with the baseline encoding, however there might then be interactions between this and the 3 state encoding... My 30 min slot on Thursday will go into more detail about these and hopefully by then we will have a clear proposal for how to advance the encoding (and hopefully expedite it through to RFC in recrd time!) Toby Moncaster ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of philip.eardley@bt.com Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 15:53 To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) Some of us met this morning to talk about PCN. We discussed the marking behaviours and encoding drafts. On the former [draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01]: - we would like this to become a WG document as soon as possible. We mainly discussed changes to the traffic conditioning section. Basic proposal is to simplify this section. I wanted to quickly summarise what I think we agreed, in order to get feedback before the WG meeting on Thursday. First, the PCN-interior-node behaviour: - basic goal of PCN is to keep PCN-traffic within the PCN-threshold-rate on each link in the PCN-domain - If there's too much PCN-traffic on a link (eg due to a re-route after a failure), then either the flow termination mechanism kicks in, or else the queue will do its normal action when overloaded, typically tail drop. (The current draft talks about metering and dropping, but it's too much complexity to insist this is done on every link and indeed it should rarely be necessary, especially if the flow termination mechanism is in use.) - Using the same capacity for other traffic (ie sharing it with traffic at same or higher priority as PCN) - there should be a mechanism to limit this traffic but it doesn't need to be part of the PCN documents how this is done. - Current draft talks about downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action on PCN-interior-nodes. But we don't need to mention downgrading. Since overloaded PCN-traffic is tail dropped from queue, whilst non-PCN traffic is dealt with by some mechanism outside the scope of the draft. - for non-PCN-traffic, basically we just say "see other docs". Appendix could explain this a bit more, eg reference the Diffserv architecture and [draft-ietf-tsvwg-admitted-realtime-dscp]. Something analogous to S2.1 of the latter, eg could have EF & PCN in different queues & limit the scheduler rate, or in the same queue and police EF. PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning: - Discussion of PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning would move to an Appendix. Ideally this text would move to a separate doc about the edge behaviour, signalling aspects etc, however such a document doesn't exist at the moment. So worth keeping the text in an appendix. - The text about policing of PCN-traffic by ingress is a SHOULD. (Current doc has a MUST, this is felt to be too over-prescriptive. Policing has an implementation cost, and operator may want to handle this differently, eg policing per ingress-egress-aggregate at the ingress instead of per flow.) also, the third bullet needs to say dropping or downgrading flows (not packets). - The text about policing of non-PCN-traffic by the ingress can be deleted. This should just be a reference to the appropriate Diffserv documents. Other changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 - the 'classify function' is re-named to 'behaviour aggregate classifier' (function done on all PCN-links). This is thought more consistent with diffserv terminology. Whereas 'classify' is more typically used to mean 5-tuple style classification that would only be done at the domain ingress. - Drop the bullet that "PCN-packets that are dropped SHOULD NOT be metered by the Excess traffic meter". Since the overloaded pkts are tail dropped, it's impractical for the excess traffic meter to know that they'll be dropped. (The issue that Michael found can still be mentioned in the Appendix.) comments? Thanks phil _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 02:51:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936A628C256; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:51:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECEF28C255 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:51:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0SvW0ouzNUz2 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CB428C24D for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF07A0653; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:51:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924FDA0652; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:51:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E180A05DD; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:51:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488EE7C4.6090008@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:49:56 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: toby.moncaster@bt.com References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Toby, toby.moncaster@bt.com wrote: > Further to this just to let you all know that we are still trying to see if we can come to some agreement between the 3 main current encoding options: > > baseline encoding - 2 current suggestions: > 1) Make one of the ECT codepoints experimental or local use > 2) Specify rules for the two ECT codepoints such that you HAVE to mark all codepoints to the higher threshold but leave the behaviour for the lower thresold undefined (Note I am avoiding using ANY nomenclature here). > I don't understand this. > > 3 state encoding - allows limited end-to-end ECN. I do not see the value for practical application for the following reasons. * Original ECN codepoints cannot preserved as PCN marks are added, thus "dominant" PCN+ECN codepoint are signalled. * This dominant PCN+ECN signalling can be applied only if flows explicitly signal to the PCN domain that they want to receive these signals. * It is not clear, how these signals are evaluated, in particular, because the semantics of the signals heavily depend on the type of PCN marking (excess or exhaustive marking, reference rate=admissible or supportable rate) * The same behavior can be obtained for PSDM when PCN traffic is tunneled edge-to-edge with appropriate encaps/decaps mechanism (its the same type as required for tunneling within PCN domains). * Preserving original ECN (without additional PCN marks) codepoints still require the application of an edge-to-edge tunnel that protects the inner header information. > It also allows one to do egress-based measurement of admission marking rate to make admission decisions (simulatins seem to suggest this behaves better in many situations). However this uses a messy solution of 1 standards and one local use DSCP and requires changes between them. There is also some debate about which marking goes in which DSCP. > I believe that don't understand this properly. Do you mean the fact that baseline encoding can be used for both excess and exhaustive marking? Yes, it's true that we need to tell routers what kind of marking is expected from them. With PSDM this is different as packets are marked at the ingress either with non-ExM or non-EhM. Then, routers know what kind of marking they have to apply. > > PSDM - uses a single DSCP which is a definite pro. However to be able to use both admission and termination marking, you need an external mechanism to correctly identify which marking a packet originally had. One suggestion that needs careful throught is that there may be a mechanism by which we can merge this encding with the baseline encoding, however there might then be interactions between this and the 3 state encoding... > As I said above, 3 state encoding can be received by applying PSDM with appropriate edge-to-edge tunnels. From my perspective, the issue of delivering dominant ECN+PCN signals is irrelevant, in particular as the preservation of original ECN signals still requires tunnels and PSDM with appropriate tunnels can also deliver dominant ECN+PCN signals. For me the question boils down to the following. Do we favor the benefits of 1) (baseline + 3 state encoding) = support for independent excess and exhaustive marking as required by CL 2) (PSDM) = support for excess marking and exhaustive marking for probe traffic within a single codepoint I believe that any solution with 2 DSCPs will not become reality due to DSCP shortage. That was at least my impression from the discussion at the last meeting. Since the option baseline+ 3 state encoding requires 2 DSCPs, I don't think it's realistic for further deployment. Hence, baseline + 3 state encoding is equivalent for me to baseline encoding. Baseline encoding supports only a single marking scheme which leaves us with the Single-Marking approach which is from my perspective not enough for smooth operation in many cases. Regards, Michael > > My 30 min slot on Thursday will go into more detail about these and hopefully by then we will have a clear proposal for how to advance the encoding (and hopefully expedite it through to RFC in recrd time!) > > Toby Moncaster > > ________________________________ > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of philip.eardley@bt.com > Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 15:53 > To: pcn@ietf.org > Subject: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) > > > > Some of us met this morning to talk about PCN. We discussed the marking behaviours and encoding drafts. > > > > On the former [draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01]: > > - we would like this to become a WG document as soon as possible. > > > > We mainly discussed changes to the traffic conditioning section. Basic proposal is to simplify this section. I wanted to quickly summarise what I think we agreed, in order to get feedback before the WG meeting on Thursday. > > > > First, the PCN-interior-node behaviour: > > - basic goal of PCN is to keep PCN-traffic within the PCN-threshold-rate on each link in the PCN-domain > > - If there's too much PCN-traffic on a link (eg due to a re-route after a failure), then either the flow termination mechanism kicks in, or else the queue will do its normal action when overloaded, typically tail drop. (The current draft talks about metering and dropping, but it's too much complexity to insist this is done on every link and indeed it should rarely be necessary, especially if the flow termination mechanism is in use.) > > - Using the same capacity for other traffic (ie sharing it with traffic at same or higher priority as PCN) - there should be a mechanism to limit this traffic but it doesn't need to be part of the PCN documents how this is done. > > - Current draft talks about downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action on PCN-interior-nodes. But we don't need to mention downgrading. Since overloaded PCN-traffic is tail dropped from queue, whilst non-PCN traffic is dealt with by some mechanism outside the scope of the draft. > > - for non-PCN-traffic, basically we just say "see other docs". Appendix could explain this a bit more, eg reference the Diffserv architecture and [draft-ietf-tsvwg-admitted-realtime-dscp]. Something analogous to S2.1 of the latter, eg could have EF & PCN in different queues & limit the scheduler rate, or in the same queue and police EF. > > > > PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning: > > - Discussion of PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning would move to an Appendix. Ideally this text would move to a separate doc about the edge behaviour, signalling aspects etc, however such a document doesn't exist at the moment. So worth keeping the text in an appendix. > > - The text about policing of PCN-traffic by ingress is a SHOULD. (Current doc has a MUST, this is felt to be too over-prescriptive. Policing has an implementation cost, and operator may want to handle this differently, eg policing per ingress-egress-aggregate at the ingress instead of per flow.) also, the third bullet needs to say dropping or downgrading flows (not packets). > > - The text about policing of non-PCN-traffic by the ingress can be deleted. This should just be a reference to the appropriate Diffserv documents. > > > > Other changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > - the 'classify function' is re-named to 'behaviour aggregate classifier' (function done on all PCN-links). This is thought more consistent with diffserv terminology. Whereas 'classify' is more typically used to mean 5-tuple style classification that would only be done at the domain ingress. > > - Drop the bullet that "PCN-packets that are dropped SHOULD NOT be metered by the Excess traffic meter". Since the overloaded pkts are tail dropped, it's impractical for the excess traffic meter to know that they'll be dropped. (The issue that Michael found can still be mentioned in the Appendix.) > > > > comments? > > Thanks > > phil > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 03:14:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEF628C156; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:14:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A4E28C117 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:14:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oz4IIoe1PJaG for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B9528C1F1 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.63]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:12:48 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:12:47 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) Thread-Index: AcjxYKJiwxy+zb3rQz670I/OCwAgtgAAYFZw References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488EE7C4.6090008@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2008 10:12:48.0654 (UTC) FILETIME=[A7099AE0:01C8F163] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Only brief responses Toby ________________________________ From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de] Sent: Tue 29/07/2008 10:49 To: Moncaster,T,Toby,CXR9 R Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) Hi Toby, toby.moncaster@bt.com wrote: > Further to this just to let you all know that we are still trying to see if we can come to some agreement between the 3 main current encoding options: > > baseline encoding - 2 current suggestions: > 1) Make one of the ECT codepoints experimental or local use > 2) Specify rules for the two ECT codepoints such that you HAVE to mark all codepoints to the higher threshold but leave the behaviour for the lower thresold undefined (Note I am avoiding using ANY nomenclature here). > I don't understand this. (Toby) See slides when I post them (once I have written them!) > > 3 state encoding - allows limited end-to-end ECN. I do not see the value for practical application for the following reasons. * Original ECN codepoints cannot preserved as PCN marks are added, thus "dominant" PCN+ECN codepoint are signalled. * This dominant PCN+ECN signalling can be applied only if flows explicitly signal to the PCN domain that they want to receive these signals. * It is not clear, how these signals are evaluated, in particular, because the semantics of the signals heavily depend on the type of PCN marking (excess or exhaustive marking, reference rate=admissible or supportable rate) * The same behavior can be obtained for PSDM when PCN traffic is tunneled edge-to-edge with appropriate encaps/decaps mechanism (its the same type as required for tunneling within PCN domains). * Preserving original ECN (without additional PCN marks) codepoints still require the application of an edge-to-edge tunnel that protects the inner header information. (Toby) Perhaps this would be clearer if we expressed this as exposing the PCN marks to the end-point such that it can react to them. Then it is important to preserve /some/ form of signalling channel to negotiate this. This signalling channel would re-use ECN. > It also allows one to do egress-based measurement of admission marking rate to make admission decisions (simulatins seem to suggest this behaves better in many situations). However this uses a messy solution of 1 standards and one local use DSCP and requires changes between them. There is also some debate about which marking goes in which DSCP. > I believe that don't understand this properly. Do you mean the fact that baseline encoding can be used for both excess and exhaustive marking? Yes, it's true that we need to tell routers what kind of marking is expected from them. With PSDM this is different as packets are marked at the ingress either with non-ExM or non-EhM. Then, routers know what kind of marking they have to apply. (Toby) NO, I mean that, unless _all_ packets can be admission marked then CL-like schemes can't make an accurate admission decision based on an aggregate at the egress. > > PSDM - uses a single DSCP which is a definite pro. However to be able to use both admission and termination marking, you need an external mechanism to correctly identify which marking a packet originally had. One suggestion that needs careful throught is that there may be a mechanism by which we can merge this encding with the baseline encoding, however there might then be interactions between this and the 3 state encoding... > As I said above, 3 state encoding can be received by applying PSDM with appropriate edge-to-edge tunnels. (Toby) NO, ECN can be preserved end-to-end. This is simply a by-product of 3-state encoding... From my perspective, the issue of delivering dominant ECN+PCN signals is irrelevant, in particular as the preservation of original ECN signals still requires tunnels and PSDM with appropriate tunnels can also deliver dominant ECN+PCN signals. For me the question boils down to the following. Do we favor the benefits of 1) (baseline + 3 state encoding) = support for independent excess and exhaustive marking as required by CL 2) (PSDM) = support for excess marking and exhaustive marking for probe traffic within a single codepoint (Toby) yes this is what I see the question as. However I don't completely agree with your answers to the question. I think that using a local use DSCP is undesirable but I don't think it is necessarily a killer (except apparently to DT). What would be nice is to end up with a standards baseline that is sufficiently flexible to allow operators to do experiments on whether CL-type admission or PBAC is better, whether flow termination is useful, how best to do these functions, etc. In other words lets try to ensure we don't close the door to any future extension (especially lets not close the door to future re-chartering) I believe that any solution with 2 DSCPs will not become reality due to DSCP shortage. That was at least my impression from the discussion at the last meeting. Since the option baseline+ 3 state encoding requires 2 DSCPs, I don't think it's realistic for further deployment. Hence, baseline + 3 state encoding is equivalent for me to baseline encoding. Baseline encoding supports only a single marking scheme which leaves us with the Single-Marking approach which is from my perspective not enough for smooth operation in many cases. Regards, Michael > > My 30 min slot on Thursday will go into more detail about these and hopefully by then we will have a clear proposal for how to advance the encoding (and hopefully expedite it through to RFC in recrd time!) > > Toby Moncaster > > ________________________________ > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of philip.eardley@bt.com > Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 15:53 > To: pcn@ietf.org > Subject: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) > > > > Some of us met this morning to talk about PCN. We discussed the marking behaviours and encoding drafts. > > > > On the former [draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01]: > > - we would like this to become a WG document as soon as possible. > > > > We mainly discussed changes to the traffic conditioning section. Basic proposal is to simplify this section. I wanted to quickly summarise what I think we agreed, in order to get feedback before the WG meeting on Thursday. > > > > First, the PCN-interior-node behaviour: > > - basic goal of PCN is to keep PCN-traffic within the PCN-threshold-rate on each link in the PCN-domain > > - If there's too much PCN-traffic on a link (eg due to a re-route after a failure), then either the flow termination mechanism kicks in, or else the queue will do its normal action when overloaded, typically tail drop. (The current draft talks about metering and dropping, but it's too much complexity to insist this is done on every link and indeed it should rarely be necessary, especially if the flow termination mechanism is in use.) > > - Using the same capacity for other traffic (ie sharing it with traffic at same or higher priority as PCN) - there should be a mechanism to limit this traffic but it doesn't need to be part of the PCN documents how this is done. > > - Current draft talks about downgrading as a possible traffic conditioning action on PCN-interior-nodes. But we don't need to mention downgrading. Since overloaded PCN-traffic is tail dropped from queue, whilst non-PCN traffic is dealt with by some mechanism outside the scope of the draft. > > - for non-PCN-traffic, basically we just say "see other docs". Appendix could explain this a bit more, eg reference the Diffserv architecture and [draft-ietf-tsvwg-admitted-realtime-dscp]. Something analogous to S2.1 of the latter, eg could have EF & PCN in different queues & limit the scheduler rate, or in the same queue and police EF. > > > > PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning: > > - Discussion of PCN-ingress-node traffic conditioning would move to an Appendix. Ideally this text would move to a separate doc about the edge behaviour, signalling aspects etc, however such a document doesn't exist at the moment. So worth keeping the text in an appendix. > > - The text about policing of PCN-traffic by ingress is a SHOULD. (Current doc has a MUST, this is felt to be too over-prescriptive. Policing has an implementation cost, and operator may want to handle this differently, eg policing per ingress-egress-aggregate at the ingress instead of per flow.) also, the third bullet needs to say dropping or downgrading flows (not packets). > > - The text about policing of non-PCN-traffic by the ingress can be deleted. This should just be a reference to the appropriate Diffserv documents. > > > > Other changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 > > - the 'classify function' is re-named to 'behaviour aggregate classifier' (function done on all PCN-links). This is thought more consistent with diffserv terminology. Whereas 'classify' is more typically used to mean 5-tuple style classification that would only be done at the domain ingress. > > - Drop the bullet that "PCN-packets that are dropped SHOULD NOT be metered by the Excess traffic meter". Since the overloaded pkts are tail dropped, it's impractical for the excess traffic meter to know that they'll be dropped. (The issue that Michael found can still be mentioned in the Appendix.) > > > > comments? > > Thanks > > phil > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 03:39:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282B13A6B57; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:39:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000133A6B57 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:39:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kX6vwFT-7FP for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40373A68F3 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:39:18 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:39:17 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Nomenclature Thread-Index: AcjwyzD2aYoKHjJxT025o5ASZfUSMgAjc8hB References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2008 10:39:18.0320 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A8D6300:01C8F167] Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org that's a good spot, thanks. the text you quote needs tweaking as it isn't accurate in a single marking scenario. yes, the change of terminlogy you suggest is possible. i'm sure it's possible to make all the docs consistent with either the existing terminology or with your suggested alternative. personally i dont think one is easier to understand than the other. the consensus at the WG meeting a few ietfs ago, when we discussed terminology, was that the names of the reference rates of the meter/markers should reflect how the markers work rather than what they're trying to achieve. ie PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate (for the threshold-marking and excess-traffic-marking behaviours). note that your suggestion makes it harder to write the marking behaviour draft, because you have to say something like "if the opeartor has 3 encoding states, then the excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to supportable rate; if the operator only has 2 encoding states and is doing single marking, then the excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to the admissible rate". with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this is the thing that implementors write code to do) i dont particularly care about threshold vs exhaustive as terms, and personally dont find much difference in what they imply about implementation. a tiny practical issue in favoour of threshold, is that 'exhaustive' and 'excess rate' have the same first letters, so good abbreviations are less obvious. thanks phil ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Michael Menth Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 17:00 To: pcn Subject: [PCN] Nomenclature Hi, I think the current PCN nomenclature can still be improved. I cite from the architecture draft-04: "The admission control mechanism limits the PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its PCN-threshold-rate and the flow termination mechanism limits the" PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its PCN-excess-rate." Stupid question: is single-marking configured with a PCN-threshold-rate or PCN-excess-rate? According to this description the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the PCN-threshold rate. That is certainly not intended by the names. I think this simple example shows that the current nomenclature is not yet perfect. A better approach is described in our overview paper. http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf I'm not at the meeting, but maybe you find some time to discuss this issue there? I request a small change: PCN-threshold-rate -> admissible-rate PCN-excess-rate -> supportable rate The reference rates of the excess or exhaustive (threshold) markers are set to one of these values depending on what should be done with the marking. Threshold marking -> exhaustive marking I find exhaustive marking better than threshold marking since this term does not say nothing about implementation. Ramp marking could also be used although we have not found any benefit when doing that. Good names are important to explain and sell stuff to other people. Sometimes to other researchers, sometimes to customers ... Regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 05:31:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57853A6AAF; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A133A694A for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Y47Dq87zvRV for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AF528C17C for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=petri-meat.com) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KNoMk-0002ts-1h for pcn@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:31:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:31:45 -0400 From: Steven Blake To: pcn@ietf.org Message-ID: <7feb96c73dfd0b15637ffaf2d832882d@petri-meat.com> X-Sender: slblake@petri-meat.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Subject: [PCN] PCN meeting presentations - please submit. X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Let me remind the presenters for Thursday's PCN meeting to please send me your slides by Wednesday evening so that I can upload them before the meeting. Regards, // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 07:40:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AEF3A6B86; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:40:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C779C3A6AE9 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:40:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t1ywjaxI2GOh for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4743A6B86 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59CFA066B; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:40:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id B958DA0657; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:40:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01C1198DDE; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:40:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:39:32 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > that's a good spot, thanks. the text you quote needs tweaking as it isn't accurate in a single marking scenario. > > yes, the change of terminlogy you suggest is possible. i'm sure it's possible to make all the docs consistent with either the existing terminology or with your suggested alternative. personally i dont think one is easier to understand than the other. > the terms admissible and supportable rate are also needed to qualify the type of overload or congestion occurred which is needed for explanations. See Figure 1 on page 3 in http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf Just imagine to substitute admissible and supportable rate by excess and threshold rate. The outcome is not very intuitive. > > the consensus at the WG meeting a few ietfs ago, when we discussed terminology, was that the names of the reference rates of the meter/markers should reflect how the markers work rather than what they're trying to achieve. ie PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate (for the threshold-marking and excess-traffic-marking behaviours). > I was not at that meeting, but my impression was that people did not care so much about names and wanted to proceed. Therefore, we ended up with the current nomenclature. In addition, at that time PCN was not that well understood as today. > > note that your suggestion makes it harder to write the marking behaviour draft, because you have to say something like "if the opeartor has 3 encoding states, then the excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to supportable rate; if the operator only has 2 encoding states and is doing single marking, then the excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to the admissible rate". This is not a bug but a feature: it shows that the configuration of the marker depends on what the marker is used for. > with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this is the thing that implementors write code to do > This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. > > i dont particularly care about threshold vs exhaustive as terms, and personally dont find much difference in what they imply about implementation. a tiny practical issue in favoour of threshold, is that 'exhaustive' and 'excess rate' have the same first letters, so good abbreviations are less obvious. > Well, you mean EM for excess and TM for threshold marking. "T" often stands for termination which is not quite what threshold marking is used for. So, there are also arguments against this counterargument. EcM and EhM works well for abbreviation of excess and exhaustive marking and is hard to mistake. Regards, Michael > > > > thanks > phil > > > ________________________________ > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Michael Menth > Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 17:00 > To: pcn > Subject: [PCN] Nomenclature > > > > Hi, > > I think the current PCN nomenclature can still be improved. I cite from > the architecture draft-04: > "The admission control mechanism limits the PCN-traffic on each link to > *roughly* its PCN-threshold-rate and the flow termination mechanism > limits the" PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its PCN-excess-rate." > > Stupid question: is single-marking configured with a PCN-threshold-rate > or PCN-excess-rate? According to this description the reference rate of > the excess marker is set to the PCN-threshold rate. That is certainly > not intended by the names. I think this simple example shows that the > current nomenclature is not yet perfect. A better approach is described > in our overview paper. > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf > > I'm not at the meeting, but maybe you find some time to discuss this > issue there? I request a small change: > PCN-threshold-rate -> admissible-rate > PCN-excess-rate -> supportable rate > The reference rates of the excess or exhaustive (threshold) markers are > set to one of these values depending on what should be done with the > marking. > > Threshold marking -> exhaustive marking > I find exhaustive marking better than threshold marking since this term > does not say nothing about implementation. Ramp marking could also be > used although we have not found any benefit when doing that. > > Good names are important to explain and sell stuff to other people. > Sometimes to other researchers, sometimes to customers ... > > Regards, > > Michael > > -- > Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 08:01:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9883A28C33F; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:01:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E6B628C33C for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:01:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.440, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6k5n2Q+leh6 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B9128C34C for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2F3A0663; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:01:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4E5A0662; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:01:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680B1A0644; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:01:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488F3066.2090307@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:59:50 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: toby.moncaster@bt.com, pcn References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488EE7C4.6090008@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Subject: Re: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Toby, >> 3 state encoding - allows limited end-to-end ECN. >> > I do not see the value for practical application for the following reasons. > * Original ECN codepoints cannot preserved as PCN marks are added, thus > "dominant" PCN+ECN codepoint are signalled. > * This dominant PCN+ECN signalling can be applied only if flows > explicitly signal to the PCN domain that they want to receive these signals. > * It is not clear, how these signals are evaluated, in particular, > because the semantics of the signals heavily depend on the type of PCN > marking (excess or exhaustive marking, reference rate=admissible or > supportable rate) > * The same behavior can be obtained for PSDM when PCN traffic is > tunneled edge-to-edge with appropriate encaps/decaps mechanism (its the > same type as required for tunneling within PCN domains). > * Preserving original ECN (without additional PCN marks) codepoints > still require the application of an edge-to-edge tunnel that protects > the inner header information. > > (Toby) Perhaps this would be clearer if we expressed this as exposing the PCN marks to the end-point such that it can react to them. Then it is important to preserve /some/ form of signalling channel to negotiate this. This signalling channel would re-use ECN. > I'll wait for your slides. > >> It also allows one to do egress-based measurement of admission marking rate to make admission decisions (simulatins seem to suggest this behaves better in many situations). However this uses a messy solution of 1 standards and one local use DSCP and requires changes between them. There is also some debate about which marking goes in which DSCP. >> >> > I believe that don't understand this properly. Do you mean the fact that > baseline encoding can be used for both excess and exhaustive marking? > Yes, it's true that we need to tell routers what kind of marking is > expected from them. With PSDM this is different as packets are marked at > the ingress either with non-ExM or non-EhM. Then, routers know what kind > of marking they have to apply. > > (Toby) NO, I mean that, unless _all_ packets can be admission marked then CL-like schemes can't make an accurate admission decision based on an aggregate at the egress. > That is correct. PSDM does not work for CL when AC and FT is required. It just supports FT and probe-based AC. > >> PSDM - uses a single DSCP which is a definite pro. However to be able to use both admission and termination marking, you need an external mechanism to correctly identify which marking a packet originally had. One suggestion that needs careful throught is that there may be a mechanism by which we can merge this encding with the baseline encoding, however there might then be interactions between this and the 3 state encoding... >> >> > As I said above, 3 state encoding can be received by applying PSDM with > appropriate edge-to-edge tunnels. > > (Toby) NO, ECN can be preserved end-to-end. This is simply a by-product of 3-state encoding... > When IPSec tunnels are used for edge-to-edge transport of PCN traffic, the decapsulator adds marking to the inner header if packets are marked. The result is essentially what 3 state encoding does. Preserving ECN codepoint without tunneling does not work with 3 state encoding as the egress node does not know the original codepoints of excess or threshold marked packets. Do I miss something? Regards, Michael -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 08:05:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57393A67EB; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:05:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4D93A67B7 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7BZpk7SSqoWZ for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF863A68E8 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:05:20 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:05:20 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Nomenclature Thread-Index: AcjxiSC8taAcDWJoReKkEIWDoo7NjgAApOKQ References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2008 15:05:20.0338 (UTC) FILETIME=[84A80B20:01C8F18C] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org one follow up (otherwise i repeat my original reply) > with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this is the thing that implementors write code to do > This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. [phil] No, the excess marker uses the PCN-excess-rate. (I think what your comment means is: If you're comparing a scenario where an operator is using both threshold and excess marking, with a scenario where the operator is using "single marking", then the opeartor in scenario 1 may set its PCN-threshold-rate to a similar value to what the operator in scenario 2 sets its PCN-excess-rate.) phil _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 09:45:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4FC3A698D; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D9F3A6922 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:45:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7uTy6ivBQEBr for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74AC3A6910 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F26198E25; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:45:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57CD198E23; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:45:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (e179090105.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.179.90.105]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A572198E1E; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:45:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488F48FC.4090405@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:44:44 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: toby.moncaster@bt.com References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CB@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488EE7C4.6090008@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <488F3066.2090307@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> In-Reply-To: <488F3066.2090307@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn Subject: Re: [PCN] Proposed changes to draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01(mainly about traffic conditioning) X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Toby, while driving home I realized that the primary concern of 3-state-encoding is to facilitate CL. This could be achieved in combination with PSDM as follows: Use PSDM as base encoding if either only a single marking is required or if probing is sufficient. A different 3-state-encoding could use only the CE field of an additional DSCP. If 3-state-encoding is required, then Voice-Admit CE is interpreted as EhM and DSCP2 CE is interpreted as EcM. That means Voice-Admit (ECT(0),(1)) is exhaustive-marked to Voice-Admit CE and Voice-Admit (ECT(0),(1),CE) are excess-marked to DSCP2 CE. What's missing is the ECN stuff which can be handled by tunneling solutions. Regards, Michael Michael Menth wrote: > Hi Toby, > > >>> 3 state encoding - allows limited end-to-end ECN. >>> >> I do not see the value for practical application for the following >> reasons. >> * Original ECN codepoints cannot preserved as PCN marks are added, thus >> "dominant" PCN+ECN codepoint are signalled. >> * This dominant PCN+ECN signalling can be applied only if flows >> explicitly signal to the PCN domain that they want to receive these >> signals. >> * It is not clear, how these signals are evaluated, in particular, >> because the semantics of the signals heavily depend on the type of PCN >> marking (excess or exhaustive marking, reference rate=admissible or >> supportable rate) >> * The same behavior can be obtained for PSDM when PCN traffic is >> tunneled edge-to-edge with appropriate encaps/decaps mechanism (its the >> same type as required for tunneling within PCN domains). >> * Preserving original ECN (without additional PCN marks) codepoints >> still require the application of an edge-to-edge tunnel that protects >> the inner header information. >> >> (Toby) Perhaps this would be clearer if we expressed this as exposing >> the PCN marks to the end-point such that it can react to them. Then >> it is important to preserve /some/ form of signalling channel to >> negotiate this. This signalling channel would re-use ECN. >> > I'll wait for your slides. > > >> >>> It also allows one to do egress-based measurement of admission >>> marking rate to make admission decisions (simulatins seem to suggest >>> this behaves better in many situations). However this uses a messy >>> solution of 1 standards and one local use DSCP and requires changes >>> between them. There is also some debate about which marking goes in >>> which DSCP. >>> >>> >> I believe that don't understand this properly. Do you mean the fact that >> baseline encoding can be used for both excess and exhaustive marking? >> Yes, it's true that we need to tell routers what kind of marking is >> expected from them. With PSDM this is different as packets are marked at >> the ingress either with non-ExM or non-EhM. Then, routers know what kind >> of marking they have to apply. >> >> (Toby) NO, I mean that, unless _all_ packets can be admission >> marked then CL-like schemes can't make an accurate admission decision >> based on an aggregate at the egress. >> > That is correct. PSDM does not work for CL when AC and FT is required. > It just supports FT and probe-based AC. > > >> >>> PSDM - uses a single DSCP which is a definite pro. However to be >>> able to use both admission and termination marking, you need an >>> external mechanism to correctly identify which marking a packet >>> originally had. One suggestion that needs careful throught is that >>> there may be a mechanism by which we can merge this encding with the >>> baseline encoding, however there might then be interactions between >>> this and the 3 state encoding... >>> >>> >> As I said above, 3 state encoding can be received by applying PSDM with >> appropriate edge-to-edge tunnels. >> >> (Toby) NO, ECN can be preserved end-to-end. This is simply a >> by-product of 3-state encoding... >> > When IPSec tunnels are used for edge-to-edge transport of PCN traffic, > the decapsulator adds marking to the inner header if packets are > marked. The result is essentially what 3 state encoding does. > Preserving ECN codepoint without tunneling does not work with 3 state > encoding as the egress node does not know the original codepoints of > excess or threshold marked packets. Do I miss something? > > Regards, > > Michael > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 13:40:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6CA63A691C; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:40:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974CC3A691C for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:40:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o9jf5BEEbCgQ for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419683A6913 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C96198E23; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:40:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B8D8198E1E; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:40:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (e179090105.adsl.alicedsl.de [85.179.90.105]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC081A05FB; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:40:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488F7FE8.1060905@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:39:04 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > one follow up (otherwise i repeat my original reply) > >> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this is the thing that implementors write code to do >> >> > This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding > states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the > PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. > > [phil] No, the excess marker uses the PCN-excess-rate. > (I think what your comment means is: If you're comparing a scenario where an operator is using both threshold and excess marking, with a scenario where the operator is using "single marking", then the opeartor in scenario 1 may set its PCN-threshold-rate to a similar value to what the operator in scenario 2 sets its PCN-excess-rate.) > That's what you think is right, but the definitions in the architecture draft say: o PCN-threshold-rate: a reference rate configured for each link in the PCN-domain, which is lower than the PCN-excess-rate. It is used by a marking behaviour that determines whether a packet should be PCN-marked with a first encoding, "threshold-marked". /*_ It's roughly the rate up to which PCN admission control should accept new flows._*/ o PCN-excess-rate: a reference rate configured for each link in the PCN-domain, which is higher than the PCN-threshold-rate. It is used by a marking behaviour that determines whether a packet should be PCN-marked with a second encoding, "excess-traffic- marked". /_*It's roughly that rate down to which flow termination should, if necessary, terminate already admitted flows.*_/ The terms PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate are defined by the semantics of an admissible and supportable rate threshold. Therefore, in case of single-marking, the reference rate of the excess-marker must be set to the PCN-threshold-rate (=admissible rate). Furthermore, in case of single-marking, we have the equation PCN-excess-rate=U*PCN-threshold-rate (supportable rate = U * admissible rate). Therefore, the PCN-excess-rate cannot be set to a similar value as the PCN-threshold-rate. Hopefully this accidental example of confusion side makes clear why I point out that the nomenclature should be improved. Regards, Michael > > phil > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 02:13:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7B63A6BCB; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:13:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209023A6BCB for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:13:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.633, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NnetCt6P4Wvj for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35053A6BCA for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:14:01 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:12:53 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Nomenclature Thread-Index: Acjxu1IDUxbLleRxTsaWJOTWf4WTSQAaSBSZ References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F7FE8.1060905@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2008 09:14:01.0524 (UTC) FILETIME=[9B1E0740:01C8F224] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org yes, thanks I'd already spotted that the last two sentences of these two definitions needed to be removed. phil ________________________________ From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de] Sent: Tue 29/07/2008 21:39 To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature Hi Phil, philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > one follow up (otherwise i repeat my original reply) > >> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this is the thing that implementors write code to do >> >> > This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding > states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the > PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. > > [phil] No, the excess marker uses the PCN-excess-rate. > (I think what your comment means is: If you're comparing a scenario where an operator is using both threshold and excess marking, with a scenario where the operator is using "single marking", then the opeartor in scenario 1 may set its PCN-threshold-rate to a similar value to what the operator in scenario 2 sets its PCN-excess-rate.) > That's what you think is right, but the definitions in the architecture draft say: o PCN-threshold-rate: a reference rate configured for each link in the PCN-domain, which is lower than the PCN-excess-rate. It is used by a marking behaviour that determines whether a packet should be PCN-marked with a first encoding, "threshold-marked". /*_ It's roughly the rate up to which PCN admission control should accept new flows._*/ o PCN-excess-rate: a reference rate configured for each link in the PCN-domain, which is higher than the PCN-threshold-rate. It is used by a marking behaviour that determines whether a packet should be PCN-marked with a second encoding, "excess-traffic- marked". /_*It's roughly that rate down to which flow termination should, if necessary, terminate already admitted flows.*_/ The terms PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate are defined by the semantics of an admissible and supportable rate threshold. Therefore, in case of single-marking, the reference rate of the excess-marker must be set to the PCN-threshold-rate (=admissible rate). Furthermore, in case of single-marking, we have the equation PCN-excess-rate=U*PCN-threshold-rate (supportable rate = U * admissible rate). Therefore, the PCN-excess-rate cannot be set to a similar value as the PCN-threshold-rate. Hopefully this accidental example of confusion side makes clear why I point out that the nomenclature should be improved. Regards, Michael > > phil > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 02:14:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BEC43A6BCE; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:14:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525E83A6BCB for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:14:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XjV6H6-H3meK for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp130.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp130.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.53.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DABE03A6BCA for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18420 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2008 09:14:33 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sWWUI4yCqUaTg6gYMeMPfj6yPAHbYrNUtbdhz0vyVIRu4nriyig1GrsA7+qGhGN/ta9tCkcQwxpVrBlKKwrMofOKoOPRk6znNv7czBqbnoVR3w5e6fRe+/bu+IYH6pKAYYmwMQLkvyYX8wVMBnvD54/u5+XMyQ7O3xOqcmYVz3U= ; Received: from unknown (HELO ?130.129.55.226?) (tom.taylor@rogers.com@130.129.55.226 with plain) by smtp130.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2008 09:14:33 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: DKEhyRsVM1kWaccsdm57SZ4AIOkckcUUoPt72Yyg6ITJftE9vndr715HqCyvh69ByQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <489030F6.3090905@rogers.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:14:30 +0100 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> In-Reply-To: <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org I myself prefer Michael's terminology and find it more understandable. Michael Menth wrote: > Hi Phil, > > philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: >> that's a good spot, thanks. the text you quote needs tweaking as it >> isn't accurate in a single marking scenario. >> >> yes, the change of terminlogy you suggest is possible. i'm sure it's >> possible to make all the docs consistent with either the existing >> terminology or with your suggested alternative. personally i dont >> think one is easier to understand than the other. >> > the terms admissible and supportable rate are also needed to qualify the > type of overload or congestion occurred which is needed for > explanations. See Figure 1 on page 3 in > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf > > Just imagine to substitute admissible and supportable rate by excess and > threshold rate. The outcome is not very intuitive. > >> >> the consensus at the WG meeting a few ietfs ago, when we discussed >> terminology, was that the names of the reference rates of the >> meter/markers should reflect how the markers work rather than what >> they're trying to achieve. ie PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate >> (for the threshold-marking and excess-traffic-marking behaviours). >> > I was not at that meeting, but my impression was that people did not > care so much about names and wanted to proceed. Therefore, we ended up > with the current nomenclature. In addition, at that time PCN was not > that well understood as today. > >> >> note that your suggestion makes it harder to write the marking >> behaviour draft, because you have to say something like "if the >> opeartor has 3 encoding states, then the excess-traffic-marker sets >> its reference rate to supportable rate; if the operator only has 2 >> encoding states and is doing single marking, then the >> excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to the admissible rate". > This is not a bug but a feature: it shows that the configuration of the > marker depends on what the marker is used for. > >> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the >> excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking >> behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make >> the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this >> is the thing that implementors write code to do >> > This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding > states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the > PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. > > >> >> i dont particularly care about threshold vs exhaustive as terms, and >> personally dont find much difference in what they imply about >> implementation. a tiny practical issue in favoour of threshold, is >> that 'exhaustive' and 'excess rate' have the same first letters, so >> good abbreviations are less obvious. > Well, you mean EM for excess and TM for threshold marking. "T" often > stands for termination which is not quite what threshold marking is used > for. So, there are also arguments against this counterargument. EcM and > EhM works well for abbreviation of excess and exhaustive marking and is > hard to mistake. > > Regards, > > Michael > >> >> >> >> thanks >> phil >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Michael Menth >> Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 17:00 >> To: pcn >> Subject: [PCN] Nomenclature >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I think the current PCN nomenclature can still be improved. I cite from >> the architecture draft-04: >> "The admission control mechanism limits the PCN-traffic on each link to >> *roughly* its PCN-threshold-rate and the flow termination mechanism >> limits the" PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its PCN-excess-rate." >> >> Stupid question: is single-marking configured with a PCN-threshold-rate >> or PCN-excess-rate? According to this description the reference rate of >> the excess marker is set to the PCN-threshold rate. That is certainly >> not intended by the names. I think this simple example shows that the >> current nomenclature is not yet perfect. A better approach is described >> in our overview paper. >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf >> >> >> I'm not at the meeting, but maybe you find some time to discuss this >> issue there? I request a small change: >> PCN-threshold-rate -> admissible-rate >> PCN-excess-rate -> supportable rate >> The reference rates of the excess or exhaustive (threshold) markers are >> set to one of these values depending on what should be done with the >> marking. >> >> Threshold marking -> exhaustive marking >> I find exhaustive marking better than threshold marking since this term >> does not say nothing about implementation. Ramp marking could also be >> used although we have not found any benefit when doing that. >> >> Good names are important to explain and sell stuff to other people. >> Sometimes to other researchers, sometimes to customers ... >> >> Regards, >> >> Michael >> >> -- >> Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor >> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science >> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 >> phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 >> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PCN mailing list >> PCN@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 02:28:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81E528C1AC; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:28:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6F63A685F for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:28:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.016 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.016 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.367, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBEg6QNVuZAh for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED803A6BC7 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564C7A0644; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:28:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AC2A05DD; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:28:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C80D198E58; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:28:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <489033E8.6030507@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:27:04 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F7FE8.1060905@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Phil, well, what's left over from the definition then is that PCN-excess/threshold-rate is the reference rate for the excess/threshold marker. I'm fine with that. But what's still missing for explanation of PCN are names to indicate the rate up to which PCN admission control should accept new flows or down to which flow termination should tear down already admitted flows. I propose to use admissible-rate and supportable-rate for that purpose and to add them to the terminology section. I think these expressions are fairly intuitive and helpful. Also talking about exhaustive marking instead of threshold marking may have advantages because it does not imply any implementation details. Note that also excess marking requires a threshold for packet size independent marking. Maybe this shows why I don't like talking about threshold marking. Regards, Michael philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > yes, thanks I'd already spotted that the last two sentences of these two definitions needed to be removed. > phil > > ________________________________ > > From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de] > Sent: Tue 29/07/2008 21:39 > To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R > Cc: pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature > > > > Hi Phil, > > philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > >> one follow up (otherwise i repeat my original reply) >> >> >>> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this is the thing that implementors write code to do >>> >>> >>> >> This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding >> states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the >> PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. >> >> [phil] No, the excess marker uses the PCN-excess-rate. >> (I think what your comment means is: If you're comparing a scenario where an operator is using both threshold and excess marking, with a scenario where the operator is using "single marking", then the opeartor in scenario 1 may set its PCN-threshold-rate to a similar value to what the operator in scenario 2 sets its PCN-excess-rate.) >> >> > That's what you think is right, but the definitions in the architecture > draft say: > > o PCN-threshold-rate: a reference rate configured for each link in > the PCN-domain, which is lower than the PCN-excess-rate. It is > used by a marking behaviour that determines whether a packet > should be PCN-marked with a first encoding, "threshold-marked". > /*_ It's roughly the rate up to which PCN admission control should > accept new flows._*/ > > o PCN-excess-rate: a reference rate configured for each link in the > PCN-domain, which is higher than the PCN-threshold-rate. It is > used by a marking behaviour that determines whether a packet > should be PCN-marked with a second encoding, "excess-traffic- > marked". /_*It's roughly that rate down to which flow termination > should, if necessary, terminate already admitted flows.*_/ > > > The terms PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate are defined by the > semantics of an admissible and supportable rate threshold. Therefore, in > case of single-marking, the reference rate of the excess-marker must be > set to the PCN-threshold-rate (=admissible rate). Furthermore, in case > of single-marking, we have the equation > PCN-excess-rate=U*PCN-threshold-rate (supportable rate = U * admissible > rate). Therefore, the PCN-excess-rate cannot be set to a similar value > as the PCN-threshold-rate. Hopefully this accidental example of > confusion side makes clear why I point out that the nomenclature should > be improved. > > Regards, > > Michael > > >> phil >> >> > > -- > Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > > > > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 02:30:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4260128C104; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:30:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D6C28C1AC for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:30:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M2lI9Cn1zjPn for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D099C3A6BC7 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.63]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:30:52 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:28:56 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Nomenclature Thread-Index: AcjyJLqDzhlQn8LzSI2FN7aceeJaWAAAfY8W References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <489030F6.3090905@rogers.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2008 09:30:52.0228 (UTC) FILETIME=[F58B3840:01C8F226] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org I confess that I have now got TOTALLY confused by all the different terminology. The really strong argument against Michael's terminology is that, as both marking behaviours start with the same first and second letters they need fairly obscure and unclear abbreviations... Toby ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Tom Taylor Sent: Wed 30/07/2008 10:14 To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature I myself prefer Michael's terminology and find it more understandable. Michael Menth wrote: > Hi Phil, > > philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: >> that's a good spot, thanks. the text you quote needs tweaking as it >> isn't accurate in a single marking scenario. >> >> yes, the change of terminlogy you suggest is possible. i'm sure it's >> possible to make all the docs consistent with either the existing >> terminology or with your suggested alternative. personally i dont >> think one is easier to understand than the other. >> > the terms admissible and supportable rate are also needed to qualify the > type of overload or congestion occurred which is needed for > explanations. See Figure 1 on page 3 in > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf > > Just imagine to substitute admissible and supportable rate by excess and > threshold rate. The outcome is not very intuitive. > >> >> the consensus at the WG meeting a few ietfs ago, when we discussed >> terminology, was that the names of the reference rates of the >> meter/markers should reflect how the markers work rather than what >> they're trying to achieve. ie PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate >> (for the threshold-marking and excess-traffic-marking behaviours). >> > I was not at that meeting, but my impression was that people did not > care so much about names and wanted to proceed. Therefore, we ended up > with the current nomenclature. In addition, at that time PCN was not > that well understood as today. > >> >> note that your suggestion makes it harder to write the marking >> behaviour draft, because you have to say something like "if the >> opeartor has 3 encoding states, then the excess-traffic-marker sets >> its reference rate to supportable rate; if the operator only has 2 >> encoding states and is doing single marking, then the >> excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to the admissible rate". > This is not a bug but a feature: it shows that the configuration of the > marker depends on what the marker is used for. > >> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the >> excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking >> behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make >> the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this >> is the thing that implementors write code to do >> > This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding > states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the > PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. > > >> >> i dont particularly care about threshold vs exhaustive as terms, and >> personally dont find much difference in what they imply about >> implementation. a tiny practical issue in favoour of threshold, is >> that 'exhaustive' and 'excess rate' have the same first letters, so >> good abbreviations are less obvious. > Well, you mean EM for excess and TM for threshold marking. "T" often > stands for termination which is not quite what threshold marking is used > for. So, there are also arguments against this counterargument. EcM and > EhM works well for abbreviation of excess and exhaustive marking and is > hard to mistake. > > Regards, > > Michael > >> >> >> >> thanks >> phil >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Michael Menth >> Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 17:00 >> To: pcn >> Subject: [PCN] Nomenclature >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I think the current PCN nomenclature can still be improved. I cite from >> the architecture draft-04: >> "The admission control mechanism limits the PCN-traffic on each link to >> *roughly* its PCN-threshold-rate and the flow termination mechanism >> limits the" PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its PCN-excess-rate." >> >> Stupid question: is single-marking configured with a PCN-threshold-rate >> or PCN-excess-rate? According to this description the reference rate of >> the excess marker is set to the PCN-threshold rate. That is certainly >> not intended by the names. I think this simple example shows that the >> current nomenclature is not yet perfect. A better approach is described >> in our overview paper. >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf >> >> >> I'm not at the meeting, but maybe you find some time to discuss this >> issue there? I request a small change: >> PCN-threshold-rate -> admissible-rate >> PCN-excess-rate -> supportable rate >> The reference rates of the excess or exhaustive (threshold) markers are >> set to one of these values depending on what should be done with the >> marking. >> >> Threshold marking -> exhaustive marking >> I find exhaustive marking better than threshold marking since this term >> does not say nothing about implementation. Ramp marking could also be >> used although we have not found any benefit when doing that. >> >> Good names are important to explain and sell stuff to other people. >> Sometimes to other researchers, sometimes to customers ... >> >> Regards, >> >> Michael >> >> -- >> Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor >> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science >> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 >> phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 >> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PCN mailing list >> PCN@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 02:39:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9936828C283; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:39:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E523A28C1C5 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X2DlgaPJO63H for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com (rtp-iport-1.cisco.com [64.102.122.148]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9DC28C254 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:39:01 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.31,278,1215388800"; d="scan'208";a="15987203" Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jul 2008 09:39:00 +0000 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m6U9d0Gt019242; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:39:00 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m6U9d0MQ004310; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:39:00 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-203.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.20]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:39:00 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:38:58 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Nomenclature Thread-Index: AcjyJLqDzhlQn8LzSI2FN7aceeJaWAAAfY8WAAAXNVA= From: "Anna Charny (acharny)" To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2008 09:39:00.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[18631760:01C8F228] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=8328; t=1217410740; x=1218274740; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=acharny@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Anna=20Charny=20(acharny)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[PCN]=20Nomenclature |Sender:=20 |To:=20,=20,= 0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20; bh=w8HWZXIm16VvdzA7eak9nvfEz7evEI1IOthrMSpoPPg=; b=fHMxxR6q6tPImg+Drn7QIzQGq/tkfJZ0dkYyf0zPoqReqQb2c3UdKcwRfo AmOLEJpKz69bJ0CTAokJwJtfbv224HCq67K6YBi+YegN2ZQcCqu4HoEjm129 IysLe92oqE; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=acharny@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi all, I also believe that at this late stage in the process, it is counter-productive to change the terminology drastically in the WD drafts and those that follow it. That is not to say that we do not need to fix obvious problems. Personally, I also find explosion of terms for the same things quite confusing as things keep reappearing in different drafts under different names, so I can't help wishing we could stick to some set of terms and go with that set. Personally, not finding any new names more (or less) appealing that the ones we have in the terminology section of the architecture draft, I would prefer if we could stick with the ones we had previously agreed on, and concentrate on the things we still need to decide beyond the terminology. Best, Anna > -----Original Message----- > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of toby.moncaster@bt.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:29 AM > To: tom.taylor@rogers.com; menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > Cc: pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature > > I confess that I have now got TOTALLY confused by all the > different terminology. The really strong argument against > Michael's terminology is that, as both marking behaviours > start with the same first and second letters they need fairly > obscure and unclear abbreviations... > > Toby > > ________________________________ > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Tom Taylor > Sent: Wed 30/07/2008 10:14 > To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > Cc: pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature > > > > I myself prefer Michael's terminology and find it more understandable. > > Michael Menth wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > > > philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > >> that's a good spot, thanks. the text you quote needs > tweaking as it > >> isn't accurate in a single marking scenario. > >> > >> yes, the change of terminlogy you suggest is possible. i'm > sure it's > >> possible to make all the docs consistent with either the existing > >> terminology or with your suggested alternative. personally i dont > >> think one is easier to understand than the other. > >> > > the terms admissible and supportable rate are also needed > to qualify > > the type of overload or congestion occurred which is needed for > > explanations. See Figure 1 on page 3 in > > > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth > > 08-PCN-Comparison.pdf > > > > Just imagine to substitute admissible and supportable rate > by excess > > and threshold rate. The outcome is not very intuitive. > > > >> > >> the consensus at the WG meeting a few ietfs ago, when we discussed > >> terminology, was that the names of the reference rates of the > >> meter/markers should reflect how the markers work rather than what > >> they're trying to achieve. ie PCN-threshold-rate and > PCN-excess-rate > >> (for the threshold-marking and excess-traffic-marking behaviours). > >> > > I was not at that meeting, but my impression was that > people did not > > care so much about names and wanted to proceed. Therefore, > we ended up > > with the current nomenclature. In addition, at that time > PCN was not > > that well understood as today. > > > >> > >> note that your suggestion makes it harder to write the marking > >> behaviour draft, because you have to say something like "if the > >> opeartor has 3 encoding states, then the > excess-traffic-marker sets > >> its reference rate to supportable rate; if the operator only has 2 > >> encoding states and is doing single marking, then the > >> excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to the > admissible rate". > > This is not a bug but a feature: it shows that the configuration of > > the marker depends on what the marker is used for. > > > >> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can > simply say "the > >> excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since > the marking > >> behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's > better to make > >> the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to > understand (as this > >> is the thing that implementors write code to do > >> > > This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for > 2 encoding > > states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the > > PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. > > > > > >> > >> i dont particularly care about threshold vs exhaustive as > terms, and > >> personally dont find much difference in what they imply about > >> implementation. a tiny practical issue in favoour of threshold, is > >> that 'exhaustive' and 'excess rate' have the same first > letters, so > >> good abbreviations are less obvious. > > Well, you mean EM for excess and TM for threshold marking. > "T" often > > stands for termination which is not quite what threshold marking is > > used for. So, there are also arguments against this > counterargument. > > EcM and EhM works well for abbreviation of excess and exhaustive > > marking and is hard to mistake. > > > > Regards, > > > > Michael > > > >> > >> > >> > >> thanks > >> phil > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Michael Menth > >> Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 17:00 > >> To: pcn > >> Subject: [PCN] Nomenclature > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I think the current PCN nomenclature can still be improved. I cite > >> from the architecture draft-04: > >> "The admission control mechanism limits the PCN-traffic on > each link > >> to > >> *roughly* its PCN-threshold-rate and the flow termination > mechanism > >> limits the" PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its > PCN-excess-rate." > >> > >> Stupid question: is single-marking configured with a > >> PCN-threshold-rate or PCN-excess-rate? According to this > description > >> the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the > PCN-threshold > >> rate. That is certainly not intended by the names. I think this > >> simple example shows that the current nomenclature is not yet > >> perfect. A better approach is described in our overview paper. > >> > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Ment > >> h08-PCN-Comparison.pdf > >> > >> > >> I'm not at the meeting, but maybe you find some time to > discuss this > >> issue there? I request a small change: > >> PCN-threshold-rate -> admissible-rate PCN-excess-rate -> > supportable > >> rate The reference rates of the excess or exhaustive (threshold) > >> markers are set to one of these values depending on what should be > >> done with the marking. > >> > >> Threshold marking -> exhaustive marking I find exhaustive marking > >> better than threshold marking since this term does not say nothing > >> about implementation. Ramp marking could also be used although we > >> have not found any benefit when doing that. > >> > >> Good names are important to explain and sell stuff to other people. > >> Sometimes to other researchers, sometimes to customers ... > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> -- > >> Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, > >> Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 > Wuerzburg, Germany, > >> room B206 > >> phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > >> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> PCN mailing list > >> PCN@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > >> > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 02:45:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D143028C1AC; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B428728C283 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:45:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.475, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W9kD+Leen4Df for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB143A6BD5 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:45:53 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:45:53 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07DD@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] Nomenclature Thread-Index: AcjyJp6IqofaiwFeR7qtJbYsAAqYtgAARr3H References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D4@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F7FE8.1060905@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07D9@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <489033E8.6030507@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2008 09:45:53.0263 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E9A3FF0:01C8F229] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org no terminology is perfect. i find that different people prefer differently terminology. i suspect this is becuase have different backgrounds, different interests, and different ways their brains work. as soon as the ID submission tool opens up again I plan to submit an update of the architecture that deals with various nits, including the ones you've spotted on terminology. also, i'll include a couple of pics which hopefully will help with people's understanding of what the terms mean (similar to one of your pics in your report) I'm hoping that this minor rev will be ready for WG last call (to be discussed at WG meeting). i suggest that any remaining terminology points are dealt with as part of this. thanks phil ________________________________ From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de] Sent: Wed 30/07/2008 10:27 To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature Hi Phil, well, what's left over from the definition then is that PCN-excess/threshold-rate is the reference rate for the excess/threshold marker. I'm fine with that. But what's still missing for explanation of PCN are names to indicate the rate up to which PCN admission control should accept new flows or down to which flow termination should tear down already admitted flows. I propose to use admissible-rate and supportable-rate for that purpose and to add them to the terminology section. I think these expressions are fairly intuitive and helpful. Also talking about exhaustive marking instead of threshold marking may have advantages because it does not imply any implementation details. Note that also excess marking requires a threshold for packet size independent marking. Maybe this shows why I don't like talking about threshold marking. Regards, Michael philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > yes, thanks I'd already spotted that the last two sentences of these two definitions needed to be removed. > phil > > ________________________________ > > From: Michael Menth [mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de] > Sent: Tue 29/07/2008 21:39 > To: Eardley,PL,Philip,CXR9 R > Cc: pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature > > > > Hi Phil, > > philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > >> one follow up (otherwise i repeat my original reply) >> >> >>> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this is the thing that implementors write code to do >>> >>> >>> >> This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding >> states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the >> PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. >> >> [phil] No, the excess marker uses the PCN-excess-rate. >> (I think what your comment means is: If you're comparing a scenario where an operator is using both threshold and excess marking, with a scenario where the operator is using "single marking", then the opeartor in scenario 1 may set its PCN-threshold-rate to a similar value to what the operator in scenario 2 sets its PCN-excess-rate.) >> >> > That's what you think is right, but the definitions in the architecture > draft say: > > o PCN-threshold-rate: a reference rate configured for each link in > the PCN-domain, which is lower than the PCN-excess-rate. It is > used by a marking behaviour that determines whether a packet > should be PCN-marked with a first encoding, "threshold-marked". > /*_ It's roughly the rate up to which PCN admission control should > accept new flows._*/ > > o PCN-excess-rate: a reference rate configured for each link in the > PCN-domain, which is higher than the PCN-threshold-rate. It is > used by a marking behaviour that determines whether a packet > should be PCN-marked with a second encoding, "excess-traffic- > marked". /_*It's roughly that rate down to which flow termination > should, if necessary, terminate already admitted flows.*_/ > > > The terms PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate are defined by the > semantics of an admissible and supportable rate threshold. Therefore, in > case of single-marking, the reference rate of the excess-marker must be > set to the PCN-threshold-rate (=admissible rate). Furthermore, in case > of single-marking, we have the equation > PCN-excess-rate=U*PCN-threshold-rate (supportable rate = U * admissible > rate). Therefore, the PCN-excess-rate cannot be set to a similar value > as the PCN-threshold-rate. Hopefully this accidental example of > confusion side makes clear why I point out that the nomenclature should > be improved. > > Regards, > > Michael > > >> phil >> >> > > -- > Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor > University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science > Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 > phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 > mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn > > > > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 02:58:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D58D28C1C8; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:58:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84DC28C1C8 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:57:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.986, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tvkz9ku+xMed for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0008128B797 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E33A198E57; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:58:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD38198E56; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:58:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B42CA0687; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:58:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48903AE5.7010505@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:56:53 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: toby.moncaster@bt.com References: <488DED02.3060901@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07CE@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> <488F2BA4.5000604@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <489030F6.3090905@rogers.com> In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Toby, your argument relates to excess marking vs. exhaustive marking. I just can comment that I personally prefer to have a weaker abbreviation than a name (threshold marking) for exhaustive marking that could be applied equally well for excess marking as its implementation also requires some threshold. This issue is independent of the debate admissible and supportable rate vs. PCN-excess- and PCN-threshold-rate for which I do not know any arguments against except for the fact that pervious doc used other but also non-consistent expressions while many arguments in favor exist (clarity, intuition, compatibility for all proposals). Regards, Michael toby.moncaster@bt.com wrote: > I confess that I have now got TOTALLY confused by all the different terminology. The really strong argument against Michael's terminology is that, as both marking behaviours start with the same first and second letters they need fairly obscure and unclear abbreviations... > > Toby > > ________________________________ > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Tom Taylor > Sent: Wed 30/07/2008 10:14 > To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de > Cc: pcn@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature > > > > I myself prefer Michael's terminology and find it more understandable. > > Michael Menth wrote: > >> Hi Phil, >> >> philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: >> >>> that's a good spot, thanks. the text you quote needs tweaking as it >>> isn't accurate in a single marking scenario. >>> >>> yes, the change of terminlogy you suggest is possible. i'm sure it's >>> possible to make all the docs consistent with either the existing >>> terminology or with your suggested alternative. personally i dont >>> think one is easier to understand than the other. >>> >>> >> the terms admissible and supportable rate are also needed to qualify the >> type of overload or congestion occurred which is needed for >> explanations. See Figure 1 on page 3 in >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf >> >> Just imagine to substitute admissible and supportable rate by excess and >> threshold rate. The outcome is not very intuitive. >> >> >>> the consensus at the WG meeting a few ietfs ago, when we discussed >>> terminology, was that the names of the reference rates of the >>> meter/markers should reflect how the markers work rather than what >>> they're trying to achieve. ie PCN-threshold-rate and PCN-excess-rate >>> (for the threshold-marking and excess-traffic-marking behaviours). >>> >>> >> I was not at that meeting, but my impression was that people did not >> care so much about names and wanted to proceed. Therefore, we ended up >> with the current nomenclature. In addition, at that time PCN was not >> that well understood as today. >> >> >>> note that your suggestion makes it harder to write the marking >>> behaviour draft, because you have to say something like "if the >>> opeartor has 3 encoding states, then the excess-traffic-marker sets >>> its reference rate to supportable rate; if the operator only has 2 >>> encoding states and is doing single marking, then the >>> excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to the admissible rate". >>> >> This is not a bug but a feature: it shows that the configuration of the >> marker depends on what the marker is used for. >> >> >>> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can simply say "the >>> excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since the marking >>> behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's better to make >>> the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to understand (as this >>> is the thing that implementors write code to do >>> >>> >> This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for 2 encoding >> states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the >> PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. >> >> >> >>> i dont particularly care about threshold vs exhaustive as terms, and >>> personally dont find much difference in what they imply about >>> implementation. a tiny practical issue in favoour of threshold, is >>> that 'exhaustive' and 'excess rate' have the same first letters, so >>> good abbreviations are less obvious. >>> >> Well, you mean EM for excess and TM for threshold marking. "T" often >> stands for termination which is not quite what threshold marking is used >> for. So, there are also arguments against this counterargument. EcM and >> EhM works well for abbreviation of excess and exhaustive marking and is >> hard to mistake. >> >> Regards, >> >> Michael >> >> >>> >>> thanks >>> phil >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Michael Menth >>> Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 17:00 >>> To: pcn >>> Subject: [PCN] Nomenclature >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I think the current PCN nomenclature can still be improved. I cite from >>> the architecture draft-04: >>> "The admission control mechanism limits the PCN-traffic on each link to >>> *roughly* its PCN-threshold-rate and the flow termination mechanism >>> limits the" PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its PCN-excess-rate." >>> >>> Stupid question: is single-marking configured with a PCN-threshold-rate >>> or PCN-excess-rate? According to this description the reference rate of >>> the excess marker is set to the PCN-threshold rate. That is certainly >>> not intended by the names. I think this simple example shows that the >>> current nomenclature is not yet perfect. A better approach is described >>> in our overview paper. >>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth08-PCN-Comparison.pdf >>> >>> >>> I'm not at the meeting, but maybe you find some time to discuss this >>> issue there? I request a small change: >>> PCN-threshold-rate -> admissible-rate >>> PCN-excess-rate -> supportable rate >>> The reference rates of the excess or exhaustive (threshold) markers are >>> set to one of these values depending on what should be done with the >>> marking. >>> >>> Threshold marking -> exhaustive marking >>> I find exhaustive marking better than threshold marking since this term >>> does not say nothing about implementation. Ramp marking could also be >>> used although we have not found any benefit when doing that. >>> >>> Good names are important to explain and sell stuff to other people. >>> Sometimes to other researchers, sometimes to customers ... >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor >>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science >>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 >>> phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 >>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de >>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> PCN mailing list >>> PCN@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn >>> >>> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 03:10:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE8828C2C5; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:10:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C7928C2CF for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:10:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.387 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.387 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.862, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H+kJc3V-VwPI for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B00C28C2C5 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FBF198E5C; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:09:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FBC198E50; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:09:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F15C198E41; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:09:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48903DA8.2010008@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:08:40 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anna Charny (acharny)" References: In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi Anna, CL, SM, 3sm, LC-PCN, and the architecture draft use all different nomenclature. Streamlining is required anyway. It's up to us whether we produce a well-understandable description or a rather technical one that is hard to follow. I have done a lot of comparison work and know from my experience that terms like admissible and supportable rate are PCN-specific but implementation-independent which is a good thing. This helps to avoid unnecessary explanations for expressions like PCN-excess-rate whose semantics are implementation-specific (i.e. what does the value imply: admissible or supportable rate?). I agree that technical aspects are more important. But nomenclature is also too important to be ignored, especially at a stage where not a single RFC is published. Regards, Michael Anna Charny (acharny) wrote: > Hi all, > > I also believe that at this late stage in the process, it is > counter-productive to change the terminology drastically in the WD > drafts and those that follow it. That is not to say that we do not need > to fix obvious problems. > > Personally, I also find explosion of terms for the same things quite > confusing as things keep reappearing in different drafts under different > names, so I can't help wishing we could stick to some set of terms and > go with that set. > > Personally, not finding any new names more (or less) appealing that the > ones we have in the terminology section of the architecture draft, I > would prefer if we could stick with the ones we had previously agreed > on, and concentrate on the things we still need to decide beyond the > terminology. > > Best, > Anna > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of toby.moncaster@bt.com >> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 5:29 AM >> To: tom.taylor@rogers.com; menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de >> Cc: pcn@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature >> >> I confess that I have now got TOTALLY confused by all the >> different terminology. The really strong argument against >> Michael's terminology is that, as both marking behaviours >> start with the same first and second letters they need fairly >> obscure and unclear abbreviations... >> >> Toby >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Tom Taylor >> Sent: Wed 30/07/2008 10:14 >> To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de >> Cc: pcn@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [PCN] Nomenclature >> >> >> >> I myself prefer Michael's terminology and find it more understandable. >> >> Michael Menth wrote: >> >>> Hi Phil, >>> >>> philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: >>> >>>> that's a good spot, thanks. the text you quote needs >>>> >> tweaking as it >> >>>> isn't accurate in a single marking scenario. >>>> >>>> yes, the change of terminlogy you suggest is possible. i'm >>>> >> sure it's >> >>>> possible to make all the docs consistent with either the existing >>>> terminology or with your suggested alternative. personally i dont >>>> think one is easier to understand than the other. >>>> >>>> >>> the terms admissible and supportable rate are also needed >>> >> to qualify >> >>> the type of overload or congestion occurred which is needed for >>> explanations. See Figure 1 on page 3 in >>> >>> >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Menth >> >>> 08-PCN-Comparison.pdf >>> >>> Just imagine to substitute admissible and supportable rate >>> >> by excess >> >>> and threshold rate. The outcome is not very intuitive. >>> >>> >>>> the consensus at the WG meeting a few ietfs ago, when we discussed >>>> terminology, was that the names of the reference rates of the >>>> meter/markers should reflect how the markers work rather than what >>>> they're trying to achieve. ie PCN-threshold-rate and >>>> >> PCN-excess-rate >> >>>> (for the threshold-marking and excess-traffic-marking behaviours). >>>> >>>> >>> I was not at that meeting, but my impression was that >>> >> people did not >> >>> care so much about names and wanted to proceed. Therefore, >>> >> we ended up >> >>> with the current nomenclature. In addition, at that time >>> >> PCN was not >> >>> that well understood as today. >>> >>> >>>> note that your suggestion makes it harder to write the marking >>>> behaviour draft, because you have to say something like "if the >>>> opeartor has 3 encoding states, then the >>>> >> excess-traffic-marker sets >> >>>> its reference rate to supportable rate; if the operator only has 2 >>>> encoding states and is doing single marking, then the >>>> excess-traffic-marker sets its reference rate to the >>>> >> admissible rate". >> >>> This is not a bug but a feature: it shows that the configuration of >>> the marker depends on what the marker is used for. >>> >>> >>>> with the existing terminology, the marking draft can >>>> >> simply say "the >> >>>> excess-traffic-marker uses the PCN-excess-rate; the since >>>> >> the marking >> >>>> behaviour is STDS (architecture is Info) i think it's >>>> >> better to make >> >>>> the marking behaviour doc as easy as possible to >>>> >> understand (as this >> >>>> is the thing that implementors write code to do >>>> >>>> >>> This is true for 3 encoding states, but it is not true for >>> >> 2 encoding >> >>> states. Then, the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the >>> PCN-threshold-rate. You see what I mean? That's not nice. >>> >>> >>> >>>> i dont particularly care about threshold vs exhaustive as >>>> >> terms, and >> >>>> personally dont find much difference in what they imply about >>>> implementation. a tiny practical issue in favoour of threshold, is >>>> that 'exhaustive' and 'excess rate' have the same first >>>> >> letters, so >> >>>> good abbreviations are less obvious. >>>> >>> Well, you mean EM for excess and TM for threshold marking. >>> >> "T" often >> >>> stands for termination which is not quite what threshold marking is >>> used for. So, there are also arguments against this >>> >> counterargument. >> >>> EcM and EhM works well for abbreviation of excess and exhaustive >>> marking and is hard to mistake. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> phil >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Michael Menth >>>> Sent: Mon 28/07/2008 17:00 >>>> To: pcn >>>> Subject: [PCN] Nomenclature >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I think the current PCN nomenclature can still be improved. I cite >>>> from the architecture draft-04: >>>> "The admission control mechanism limits the PCN-traffic on >>>> >> each link >> >>>> to >>>> *roughly* its PCN-threshold-rate and the flow termination >>>> >> mechanism >> >>>> limits the" PCN-traffic on each link to *roughly* its >>>> >> PCN-excess-rate." >> >>>> Stupid question: is single-marking configured with a >>>> PCN-threshold-rate or PCN-excess-rate? According to this >>>> >> description >> >>>> the reference rate of the excess marker is set to the >>>> >> PCN-threshold >> >>>> rate. That is certainly not intended by the names. I think this >>>> simple example shows that the current nomenclature is not yet >>>> perfect. A better approach is described in our overview paper. >>>> >>>> >> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/Ment >> >>>> h08-PCN-Comparison.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not at the meeting, but maybe you find some time to >>>> >> discuss this >> >>>> issue there? I request a small change: >>>> PCN-threshold-rate -> admissible-rate PCN-excess-rate -> >>>> >> supportable >> >>>> rate The reference rates of the excess or exhaustive (threshold) >>>> markers are set to one of these values depending on what should be >>>> done with the marking. >>>> >>>> Threshold marking -> exhaustive marking I find exhaustive marking >>>> better than threshold marking since this term does not say nothing >>>> about implementation. Ramp marking could also be used although we >>>> have not found any benefit when doing that. >>>> >>>> Good names are important to explain and sell stuff to other people. >>>> Sometimes to other researchers, sometimes to customers ... >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, >>>> Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 >>>> >> Wuerzburg, Germany, >> >>>> room B206 >>>> phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 >>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de >>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> PCN mailing list >>>> PCN@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> PCN mailing list >> PCN@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> PCN mailing list >> PCN@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn >> >> -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 03:19:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC1428C29B; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D5828C2F3 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=x tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ukEoXzQLF9BI for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.smtp.bt.com (smtp4.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.151]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6580328C2E7 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVZ4-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.30.63]) by smtp4.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:19:13 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8F22D.B62368B6" Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:15:16 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] PCN meeting presentations - please submit. Thread-Index: AcjxdxzD7NOdVTjlSmqqVPig76NbRAAtgy2h References: <7feb96c73dfd0b15637ffaf2d832882d@petri-meat.com> From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2008 10:19:13.0619 (UTC) FILETIME=[B6E85A30:01C8F22D] Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN meeting presentations - please submit. X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8F22D.B62368B6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please find my slides attached. If people feel they are lacking detail = please come back to me by early afternoon... =20 Steve, I know I asked to present two drafts but in corridor meetings it = became clear it would be useful to present the third item which shows = how baseline can be extended to cover all the current suggested marking = schemes. =20 Toby ________________________________ From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Steven Blake Sent: Tue 29/07/2008 13:31 To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] PCN meeting presentations - please submit. Let me remind the presenters for Thursday's PCN meeting to please send = me your slides by Wednesday evening so that I can upload them before the meeting. 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MDAwIG4gCjAwMDAwNTc3ODIgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDA1NzgzOCAwMDAwMCBuIAowMDAwMDU3OTU5 IDAwMDAwIG4gCjAwMDAwNTgwOTIgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDA1ODMyNSAwMDAwMCBuIAowMDAwMDU4 NDI3IDAwMDAwIG4gCnRyYWlsZXIKPDwvU2l6ZSA0NC9Sb290IDQyIDAgUgovSW5mbyA0MyAwIFIK L0lEIFsgPEU1NTY3RTQ2ODA3NzlBOUMwNTRGMkY0NDlBNUUxQTc3Pgo8RTU1NjdFNDY4MDc3OUE5 QzA1NEYyRjQ0OUE1RTFBNzc+IF0KL0RvY0NoZWNrc3VtIC8yRTg3MTM0MEIxRjNDOTgxOUU3RUJC QTRBMzFFNkE0Nwo+PgpzdGFydHhyZWYKNTg2ODgKJSVFT0YK ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8F22D.B62368B6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8F22D.B62368B6-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 07:17:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A10A28C15D; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:17:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B5A3A68B1 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:17:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J5gNVPj06BLo for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9083A69F7 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.110]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:17:47 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:17:47 +0100 Message-ID: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07DF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Open issue with PCN marking behaviour draft Thread-Index: AcjySpRNRrxB98BHSkOk6wYom72MEw== From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2008 14:17:47.0510 (UTC) FILETIME=[0AA6C960:01C8F24F] Subject: [PCN] Open issue with PCN marking behaviour draft X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi, an issue that some of us have been discussing in 'corridor' meetings here in Dublin. It would be good to have wider input, especially from others who might implement PCN in routers etc or operate it in networks (cores, enterprise, whatever). and perhaps from people who've had similar issue in other standards? I'll also raise this in the PCN WG on Thursday morning, but wanted to alert you now & also seek input from those not in Dublin. In Philadelphia we decided on the threshold marking and excess marking behaviours. We decided both of these were MUSTs. So, if in your network you have three encoding states available (Not PCN-marked; threshold-marking; excess-rate-marking) then it is obvious what this means in terms of what each PCN-interior-node does. However, the real question comes in a network with two encoding states (Not PCN-marked; PCN-marked), where the PCN-markings may be driven by the output of either the threshold-meter or the excess-traffic-meter (depending on the operator's requirements etc). The way that draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 is written, in this circumstance with two encoding states, the PCN-interior-node MUST actually run both threshold-meter and excess-traffic-meter (even though the results of only one of the meters is actually used). It doesn't seem a good idea to require both to be actually done - it consumes active resources on routers without benefit. This implication has probably got into the draft due to my poor writing (or my poor interpretation of the WG decision). What the WG probably meant was: both the threshold-meter and excess-rate-meter MUST be *implemented*. However, if in a particular scenario only the results of one meter are used to make pkt marking decisions, then the other meter doesn't have to be *running*. The main advantage of making it mandatory to implement both meters is that it makes migration easier. For example migration from having two encoding states available to having three encoding states available - you know that your routers will already have the required capability. Also, when buying new routers and adding them to a network with routers (perhaps from another vendor), backwards compatibility issues are eased. Another example would be if a network still only has two encoding states but wants to move from using "single marking" (which uses excess-rate-metering) to doing admission control driven by the threshold-marking (perhaps using some other mechanism for flow termination), ie it simply re-configures which meter is turned on (no need to buy new routers). Effectively making both MUSTs means there's one type of PCN-interior-node. WHereas if they're not mandatory to implement (see proposal at the end) then there are effectively three possible types of PCN-interior-node (threshold-meter; excess-traffic-meter; both meters). However, making it MUSTs to implement both types of meter has a cost. For example: - it makes the implementation requirements bigger. eg for vendors who believe their current equipment can already (or very easily) support excess-traffc-marking, but it would require some effort to add support for threshold-marking - similarly, it toughens the requirements (or at least the initial requirements) for someone wanting to experiment with PCN where there's only two encoding states. Although interestingly when Joe and Anna talked about "their" initial experiements, one would use threshold-marking only and one excess-traffic-marking only! The question is whether it would be better to remove the requirement that both meters MUST be implemented. Instead it would say something like: - If a PCN-interior-node does threshold-marking then it MUST have a meter with behaviour that is functionally equivalent to the following [insert current S2.4] - If a PCN-interior-node does excess traffic-marking then it MUST have a meter with behaviour that is functionally equivalent to the following [insert current S2.5] We discussed this amongst a few of us (Joe, Anna, Bob) and there seemed tentative feeling that this change is sensible. Comments appreciated, thanks! phil _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 08:19:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DE828C22D; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:19:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000283A68C7 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LiKXGxiQK0xC for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp119.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp119.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [68.142.224.74]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AC98928C27B for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 91151 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2008 15:18:46 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=O/K7tZ2HKkDPr9S5tPOlQKc/eeiPBrNayJnqTxVzUcOtJmSvapyKjKEGosjdYtF9aytRuSGX6kJ4r4hxeN/IPzFbnjIXqSLznd7kLj+YF6Dczrc6WhxhxtnA3rYxwKjy2URE39Z77zOHSR3w7J9XBS0yuSIBEh+elTl34zyqtHo= ; Received: from unknown (HELO ?130.129.18.207?) (tom.taylor@rogers.com@130.129.18.207 with plain) by smtp119.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2008 15:18:46 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: ihncG0kVM1m43b9WBtr94k3.NnzUqyPTpNzK9Quo9.yVXEGUTEnkReLrWyITMILinw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <48908652.3070805@rogers.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:18:42 +0100 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pcn@ietf.org References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07DF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07DF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> Subject: Re: [PCN] Open issue with PCN marking behaviour draft X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org I'm speaking for myself here, but it seems to me for the reasons you mentioned, the right thing is to require implementation of both. Otherwise network evolution becomes really messy. philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > Hi, > an issue that some of us have been discussing in 'corridor' meetings here in Dublin. It would be good to have wider input, especially from others who might implement PCN in routers etc or operate it in networks (cores, enterprise, whatever). and perhaps from people who've had similar issue in other standards? > I'll also raise this in the PCN WG on Thursday morning, but wanted to alert you now & also seek input from those not in Dublin. > > In Philadelphia we decided on the threshold marking and excess marking behaviours. We decided both of these were MUSTs. > So, if in your network you have three encoding states available (Not PCN-marked; threshold-marking; excess-rate-marking) then it is obvious what this means in terms of what each PCN-interior-node does. > > However, the real question comes in a network with two encoding states (Not PCN-marked; PCN-marked), where the PCN-markings may be driven by the output of either the threshold-meter or the excess-traffic-meter (depending on the operator's requirements etc). > > The way that draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 is written, in this circumstance with two encoding states, the PCN-interior-node MUST actually run both threshold-meter and excess-traffic-meter (even though the results of only one of the meters is actually used). It doesn't seem a good idea to require both to be actually done - it consumes active resources on routers without benefit. This implication has probably got into the draft due to my poor writing (or my poor interpretation of the WG decision). > > What the WG probably meant was: both the threshold-meter and excess-rate-meter MUST be *implemented*. However, if in a particular scenario only the results of one meter are used to make pkt marking decisions, then the other meter doesn't have to be *running*. > The main advantage of making it mandatory to implement both meters is that it makes migration easier. For example migration from having two encoding states available to having three encoding states available - you know that your routers will already have the required capability. Also, when buying new routers and adding them to a network with routers (perhaps from another vendor), backwards compatibility issues are eased. Another example would be if a network still only has two encoding states but wants to move from using "single marking" (which uses excess-rate-metering) to doing admission control driven by the threshold-marking (perhaps using some other mechanism for flow termination), ie it simply re-configures which meter is turned on (no need to buy new routers). > Effectively making both MUSTs means there's one type of PCN-interior-node. WHereas if they're not mandatory to implement (see proposal at the end) then there are effectively three possible types of PCN-interior-node (threshold-meter; excess-traffic-meter; both meters). > > However, making it MUSTs to implement both types of meter has a cost. For example: > - it makes the implementation requirements bigger. eg for vendors who believe their current equipment can already (or very easily) support excess-traffc-marking, but it would require some effort to add support for threshold-marking > - similarly, it toughens the requirements (or at least the initial requirements) for someone wanting to experiment with PCN where there's only two encoding states. Although interestingly when Joe and Anna talked about "their" initial experiements, one would use threshold-marking only and one excess-traffic-marking only! > > > The question is whether it would be better to remove the requirement that both meters MUST be implemented. Instead it would say something like: > - If a PCN-interior-node does threshold-marking then it MUST have a meter with behaviour that is functionally equivalent to the following [insert current S2.4] > - If a PCN-interior-node does excess traffic-marking then it MUST have a meter with behaviour that is functionally equivalent to the following [insert current S2.5] > > We discussed this amongst a few of us (Joe, Anna, Bob) and there seemed tentative feeling that this change is sensible. > > Comments appreciated, > thanks! > phil > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 09:08:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1AE28C36F; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:08:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB8728C22D for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:08:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0vJvJnWSgdCy for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx28.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.3.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166DE3A6AE6 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virusscan.mail (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6ABA067B; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virusscan.mail (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED0BA0674; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.187.12.123] (win3123.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.12.123]) by mailmaster.uni-wuerzburg.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CECEA0662; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <489091C9.3000909@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:07:37 +0200 From: Michael Menth Organization: University of Wuerzburg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philip.eardley@bt.com References: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07DF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> In-Reply-To: <4A916DBC72536E419A0BD955EDECEDEC032A07DF@E03MVB1-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at uni-wuerzburg.de Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Open issue with PCN marking behaviour draft X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I think this question boils down to what PCN compliance as a marketing label means. From my perspective excess marking should be a MUST, otherwise flow termination cannot be implemented which is an important part of PCN. If it is enough to support aggregates with large aggregations, then excess marking suffices and SM works fine. If scenarios with small aggregates should be supported, then also threshold marking is a MUST, otherwise it can be a SHOULD. I think that AC itself is especially attractive for low aggregation since for high aggregation overprovisioning can be done. Therefore, I am rather in favor of two "MUSTs"; otherwise it will possibly rather hard to find equipment for PCN-based AC in the low aggregation range. This is my academic view which does not include economic calculations of vendors or visions of operations what they want to use PCN for. The last question is probably most important: what do you want to use PCN for? If you cannot answer it yet, it's safer to have two MUSTs. Regards, Michael philip.eardley@bt.com wrote: > Hi, > an issue that some of us have been discussing in 'corridor' meetings here in Dublin. It would be good to have wider input, especially from others who might implement PCN in routers etc or operate it in networks (cores, enterprise, whatever). and perhaps from people who've had similar issue in other standards? > I'll also raise this in the PCN WG on Thursday morning, but wanted to alert you now & also seek input from those not in Dublin. > > In Philadelphia we decided on the threshold marking and excess marking behaviours. We decided both of these were MUSTs. > So, if in your network you have three encoding states available (Not PCN-marked; threshold-marking; excess-rate-marking) then it is obvious what this means in terms of what each PCN-interior-node does. > > However, the real question comes in a network with two encoding states (Not PCN-marked; PCN-marked), where the PCN-markings may be driven by the output of either the threshold-meter or the excess-traffic-meter (depending on the operator's requirements etc). > > The way that draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 is written, in this circumstance with two encoding states, the PCN-interior-node MUST actually run both threshold-meter and excess-traffic-meter (even though the results of only one of the meters is actually used). It doesn't seem a good idea to require both to be actually done - it consumes active resources on routers without benefit. This implication has probably got into the draft due to my poor writing (or my poor interpretation of the WG decision). > > What the WG probably meant was: both the threshold-meter and excess-rate-meter MUST be *implemented*. However, if in a particular scenario only the results of one meter are used to make pkt marking decisions, then the other meter doesn't have to be *running*. > The main advantage of making it mandatory to implement both meters is that it makes migration easier. For example migration from having two encoding states available to having three encoding states available - you know that your routers will already have the required capability. Also, when buying new routers and adding them to a network with routers (perhaps from another vendor), backwards compatibility issues are eased. Another example would be if a network still only has two encoding states but wants to move from using "single marking" (which uses excess-rate-metering) to doing admission control driven by the threshold-marking (perhaps using some other mechanism for flow termination), ie it simply re-configures which meter is turned on (no need to buy new routers). > Effectively making both MUSTs means there's one type of PCN-interior-node. WHereas if they're not mandatory to implement (see proposal at the end) then there are effectively three possible types of PCN-interior-node (threshold-meter; excess-traffic-meter; both meters). > > However, making it MUSTs to implement both types of meter has a cost. For example: > - it makes the implementation requirements bigger. eg for vendors who believe their current equipment can already (or very easily) support excess-traffc-marking, but it would require some effort to add support for threshold-marking > - similarly, it toughens the requirements (or at least the initial requirements) for someone wanting to experiment with PCN where there's only two encoding states. Although interestingly when Joe and Anna talked about "their" initial experiements, one would use threshold-marking only and one excess-traffic-marking only! > > > The question is whether it would be better to remove the requirement that both meters MUST be implemented. Instead it would say something like: > - If a PCN-interior-node does threshold-marking then it MUST have a meter with behaviour that is functionally equivalent to the following [insert current S2.4] > - If a PCN-interior-node does excess traffic-marking then it MUST have a meter with behaviour that is functionally equivalent to the following [insert current S2.5] > > We discussed this amongst a few of us (Joe, Anna, Bob) and there seemed tentative feeling that this change is sensible. > > Comments appreciated, > thanks! > phil > _______________________________________________ > PCN mailing list > PCN@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > -- Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206 phone: (+49)-931/888-6644, fax: (+49)-931/888-6632 mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 12:12:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A3E3A6C55; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:12:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC18C28C3DC for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:12:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.06 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.06 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.119, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hHaiWk23kUzq for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.smtp.bt.com (smtp3.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7653A6C55 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.71]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:12:13 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.100.81]) by i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:12:13 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 1217445133538; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:12:13 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.16.50]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6UJBEb7023483; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:12:11 +0100 Message-Id: <200807301912.m6UJBEb7023483@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:11:16 +0100 To: Steven Blake From: Bob Briscoe In-Reply-To: <7feb96c73dfd0b15637ffaf2d832882d@petri-meat.com> References: <7feb96c73dfd0b15637ffaf2d832882d@petri-meat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2008 19:12:13.0701 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C859B50:01C8F278] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN meeting presentations - please submit. X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0396170013==" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org --===============0396170013== Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Steve,

Layered encapsulation of congestion notification

Slides (ppt & pdf):
< http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/B.Briscoe/present.html#0807ecn-tunnel >

Related draft:
< draft-briscoe-tsvwg-ecn-tunnel-01.txt>

These are the same slides I used for tsvwg, but they will be delivered with different emphasis.


Cheers



Bob

At 13:31 29/07/2008, Steven Blake wrote:
Let me remind the presenters for Thursday's PCN meeting to please send me
your slides by Wednesday evening so that I can upload them before the
meeting.


Regards,

// Steve

_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

____________________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe, <bob.briscoe@bt.com>      Networks Research Centre, BT Research
B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK.    +44 1473 645196 --===============0396170013== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn --===============0396170013==-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 12:25:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FAD13A683E; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:25:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C893A6862 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:25:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tPhf7mWCcHDp for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com (zcars04f.nortel.com [47.129.242.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26ED3A681F for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.97]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m6UJPOF17356; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:25:25 GMT X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C8F27A.01EA53B3" Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:25:17 -0400 Message-ID: <9671A92C3C8B5744BC97F855F7CB6465173370E1@zcarhxm1.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <7feb96c73dfd0b15637ffaf2d832882d@petri-meat.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PCN] PCN meeting presentations - please submit. Thread-Index: AcjxdxwjsMcyhwylQyWjb5LKHMllZQBAjO7Q References: <7feb96c73dfd0b15637ffaf2d832882d@petri-meat.com> From: "Jozef Babiarz" To: "Steven Blake" , Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN meeting presentations - please submit. X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8F27A.01EA53B3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve and all, Attached are my slides for both time slots. draft-menth-pcn-psdm-encoding-00 and draft-menth-pcn-e2e-encoding-00 Regards, Joe email:babiarz@nortel.com Telephone:613-763-6098 -----Original Message----- From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Steven Blake Sent: July 29, 2008 8:32 AM To: pcn@ietf.org Subject: [PCN] PCN meeting presentations - please submit. Let me remind the presenters for Thursday's PCN meeting to please send me your slides by Wednesday evening so that I can upload them before the meeting. Regards, // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8F27A.01EA53B3 Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-powerpoint; name="PSDM-encoding-draft-00.ppt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: PSDM-encoding-draft-00.ppt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="PSDM-encoding-draft-00.ppt" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAWgAAAAAAAAAA EAAA/v///wAAAAD+////AAAAAFkAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////9SAG8A bwB0ACAARQBuAHQAcgB5AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAFgAFAf//////////AwAAABCNgWSbT88RhuoAqgC5KegAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP7/ //8AAAAAAAAAAEMAdQByAHIAZQBuAHQAIABVAHMAZQByAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaAAIB////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMwAAAAAQAAAAAAAABQBTAHUAbQBtAGEAcgB5AEkAbgBmAG8AcgBtAGEAdABp AG8AbgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACgAAgEBAAAA//////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAfAAAAiBcAAAAAAABQAG8AdwBlAHIAUABvAGkAbgB0 ACAARABvAGMAdQBtAGUAbgB0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKAACAQIAAAAEAAAA /////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABpPAAAAAAAAAUARABv AGMAdQBtAGUAbgB0AFMAdQBtAG0AYQByAHkASQBuAGYAbwByAG0AYQB0AGkAbwBuAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA4AAIB////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKwAA AAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA//////////// ////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8F27A.01EA53B3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8F27A.01EA53B3-- From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 08:49:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390D13A6872; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:49:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57BC73A682E for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:49:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.220, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U9Kyb-I7ENdL for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.smtp.bt.com (smtp4.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.151]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5BE73A6872 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.70]) by smtp4.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:48:41 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.196.177]) by i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:48:40 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 1217519241595; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:47:21 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.182.79]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6VFlu6S022742; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:48:37 +0100 Message-Id: <200807311548.m6VFlu6S022742@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:46:44 +0100 To: "EARDLEY, Phil" From: Bob Briscoe Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2008 15:48:40.0782 (UTC) FILETIME=[E777CEE0:01C8F324] Cc: PCN IETF list Subject: [PCN] Full review of draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behaviour-01 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Phil, I've annotated all the minor comments into a = MS-Word/PDF here: = Below I've listed those that are more high level, = which you seem to have largely accepted already - = but I'm documenting them here for the list to comment on if desired. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Throughout: ----------- Remove stuff that's about per-domain behaviour, = keeping only per-hop marking behaviour. Keep stuff that refers to PCN-arch, but not as = the /only/ architecture in which this marking is = valid, only as a concrete example. However you then need to say: "If admission = control or flow termination are required, this = per-hop marking behaviour does NOT provide these = functions on its own. For these, the per-hop = marking behaviour needs to be part of some wider = domain behaviour, which combined with the PHBs provides AC & FT. 1. Introduction Say what this draft is: "A definition of an = alternative congestion marking behaviour as allowed by RFC3168." And how the draft is expected to be used: = "Definitions of PHBs can refer to this document = to define a congestion marking behaviour that is = an alternative to the broadly RED-like default defined in RFC3168." And possibly, that this draft also, in itself, = associates its marking behaviour with packets of = a certain existing PHB(s) if the ECN codepoint is not-ECN. (???) 1.1. Terminology. ... o Other-traffic: traffic that uses the same DS codepoint as PCN- traffic... NOTE: Other traffic doesn't have to have the same = DS codepoint as PCN-traffic =96 it just has to share the same queue. Rather than saying {priority|other}-traffic may = not be present, use the opportunity to be more = assertive up front: "Note: Appendix XX does not = recommend {priority|other}-traffic in a PCN-domain." 2.2 Classify Function The classify function doesn't determine which = DSCPs are PCN-capable. That's a configuration = matter before any packets arrive. Classification = merely determines whether a packet matches DSCPs = that have been configured as PCN-capable. For the = ECN field, PCN-capability may be determined by = configuration or by standards action, depending = on whether we end up standardising just one = experimental encoding scheme or not. 2.3 Traffic conditioning function "" I suggest you refer here to a short appendix and = in the appendix say this (as a SHOULD, not a = 'might should'). Include Intserv over Diffserv = [RFC2998], as well as just Diffserv static TCAs [RFC2575]. B.1 Scope Suggested text for the controversial double MUST: " Note that even if only two encoding states are used, it is still REQUIR= ED that both the meters are implemented, in order to ease compatibility between equipment and remove a configuration option and associated complexity. Hardware with limited availability of instances of token buckets MAY be configured to only run one or = the other meter at a time, but it MUST be possible to enable either meter and preferably both. " B.2 Classify Add final sentence: " For this and other reasons already given, = allowing Priority-traffic or Other=96traffic to = compete with PCN traffic in the same queue is NOT RECOMMENDED." B.3. Traffic Conditioning {or in another appropriate place} Add: " Assuming admission control and flow = termination as per-domain behaviours, the length = of the real queue should be kept small. The size = of the real buffers for these small queues of PCN = traffic should also be kept small to minimise the = risk of over-termination of flows following an = episode of excess traffic [ref Zhang TBA]. " " Exactly what "preferentially dropped" means is left to the implementation. It is also left to the implementation what to do if there are no excess-traffic-marked PCN-packets available at a particular instant. " My view: Delete the second sentence (ie leave it = open what implementers should do). (For instance, = a really simple mechanism would suffice, e.g. = consider the allowed queue before drop 1 MTU = shorter for already marked packets than for others.) B.4 Threshold Metering Add: " The description deliberately marks a packet = that has caused the bucket to cross the threshold = without explicit additional bias for the packet's size. " Give a definition of 'functionally equivalent' in = terms of external behaviour of a black box being broadly similar. Cheers Bob ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 64519= 6 = _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 09:46:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D01A28C22A; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:46:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A1028C213 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.083 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.083 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.204, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f-dQGKV1RwDI for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.smtp.bt.com (smtp1.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.137]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9E53A6895 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.70]) by smtp1.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:46:47 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.196.177]) by i2kc06-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:46:47 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt05.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 121752272327; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:45:23 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.80.205]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6VGkUIq027432; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:46:43 +0100 Message-Id: <200807311646.m6VGkUIq027432@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:46:35 +0100 To: "Ingemar Johansson S" From: Bob Briscoe In-Reply-To: <026F8EEDAD2C4342A993203088C1FC0507FB7635@esealmw109.eemea. ericsson.se> References: <026F8EEDAD2C4342A993203088C1FC0507FB7635@esealmw109.eemea.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2008 16:46:47.0612 (UTC) FILETIME=[05C7D7C0:01C8F32D] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Re : draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00.txt X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Ingemar, Tx. I agree (and plenty of people at the IETF got = bored with me saying it) that the ECN nonce is = only useful if the sender is in some sense acting = on behalf of the network. I tried to write that = piece of text without giving opinion, just fact. Just to point out that the nonce can't be used by = the PCN egress, given a 1-bit nonce requires = packet ordering otherwise it gives false = negatives. The egress doesn't necessarily receive = packets in order, and it can't necessarily put = them in order because that's not it's role. Bob At 16:52 28/07/2008, Ingemar Johansson S wrote: >Hi > >Reading chapter 9 in = >draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 (security considerations). >Another transport that may use the nonce is DCCP = >with CCID 3 (see section 9 in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4342 ) > >That said, ECN nonce is probably only useful in = >a client-server scenario as it builds on some = >kind of trust relationship. For normal UDP = >transport such as VoIP between two "untrusted" = >clients I see very little use for the ECN nonce. > >Besides this I would say that this is probably a = >quite neat solution to the e2e ECN preservation = >problem and to some extent it may be possible to = >also be possible for atleast the PCN egress = >nodes to do some additional policing on flows = >that don't comply to the ThM and Etm marks but = >this is probably a later headache. > >/Ingemar >******************************************* >Ingemar Johansson >Senior Research Engineer, IETF "nethead" >EAB/TVP - Multimedia Technologies >Ericsson Research Ericsson AB >Box 920 S-971 28 Lule=E5, Sweden >Tel: +46 (0)8 4043042 >ECN: 850-43042 >ECC: 850-43074 >Mobile: +46 (0)730 783289 >******************************************* >_______________________________________________ >PCN mailing list >PCN@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 64519= 6 = _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 09:59:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2BA3A692A; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:59:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7DB28C20B for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.069 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.190, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id svnCr7sVEdei for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.smtp.bt.com (smtp2.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAF728C20C for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.71]) by smtp2.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:59:19 +0100 Received: from cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com ([147.149.100.81]) by i2kc08-ukbr.domain1.systemhost.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:59:19 +0100 Received: From bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk ([132.146.168.158]) by cbibipnt08.iuser.iroot.adidom.com (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a P0803.399); id 1217523558893; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:59:18 +0100 Received: from mut.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.73.80.205]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id m6VGwVsS028428; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:59:14 +0100 Message-Id: <200807311659.m6VGwVsS028428@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:58:22 +0100 To: From: Bob Briscoe In-Reply-To: References: <016a01c8ed81$54bb3c20$1a3afea9@china.huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2008 16:59:19.0278 (UTC) FILETIME=[C5CEF8E0:01C8F32E] Cc: pcn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [PCN] Comment about draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Fortune, Just to add to what Toby said, it's actually not = a big deal for a machine to read the DS codepoint = and the ECN field together. They are both next to = each other in IPv4 & IPv6, so they can be read-in = as 8 contiguous bits. So finding if a packet is = PCN-capable is just a matter of checking whether = an 8-bit number sits within a range of three contiguous numbers. Bob At 13:25 24/07/2008, toby.moncaster@bt.com wrote: >Hi Fortune, > >The main reason for allowing non-PCN traffic to = >co-exist in the PCN class is to allow us to = >re-use existing DSCPs such as the voice-admit = >DSCP currently being defined in TSVWG. I agree = >it would be easier if we could just remove the = >need for not-PCN from all the encoding schemes. > >Toby > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Fortune HUANG > > Sent: 24 July 2008 12:35 > > To: pcn@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [PCN] Comment about > > draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-encoding-00 > > > > Hi all, > > > > In clause 4 of draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02, there is a > > paragraph as follows: > > o Any packet that is not PCN capable (not-PCN) but which > > shares the same > > DiffServ codepoint as PCN capable traffic MUST have the ECN > > field set to 00. > > > > From my point of view, we don't need this kind of packet > > which shares the > > same DSCP as PCN traffic while it is not PCN traffic. Even if > > we want to > > support this kind of packet, we can not handle it well. > > Obviously, this kind > > of packet can not be handled like normal PCN-traffic. And it > > can not be > > handled like ECN-traffic either, for its ECN field needs to > > be 00 in the PCN > > domain. The reason is that if its ECN field is changed, the > > packet will be > > mixed totally in the PCN-traffic and can't be identified by > > the interior > > node. Furthermore, since the ECN field of this kind of packet > > is changed to > > 00 at the ingress node, and the ECN field of this kind of > > packet can't be > > recovered at the egress node. It makes the End-to-End ECN > > support impossible > > for this kind of packet. > > > > If we can agree on this point, the following paragraph in > > clause 6.5 of > > draft-ietf-pcn-architecture-04 can be removed: > > o There may be other traffic that uses the same DSCP as > > PCN-traffic but > > with the ECN field is 00 (Not ECT), and so not subject to > > PCN-marking, nor > > PCN's admission control and flow termination mechanisms.. To quote > > [I-D.moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding]: "To conserve DSCPs, DiffServ > > Codepoints SHOULD be chosen that are already defined for use > > with admission > > controlled traffic, such as the Voice-Admit codepoint defined in > > [voice-admit]." Since scheduling behaviour is coupled > > with the DSCP > > only, therefore the same scheduling and buffer management > > rules are applied > > to non- PCN-traffic and PCN-traffic using the same > > PCN-enabled DSCP. There > > may be no "non-PCN-traffic", but if there is it needs to > > contribute to the > > PCN meters. > > > > Best Regards, > > Fortune > > > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: pcn-bounces@ietf.org = > [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Fortune > > HUANG > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2008=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8824=E6=97= =A5 18:53 > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: pcn@ietf.org > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [PCN] Comment about draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state= -encoding-00 > > > > Hi all, > > > > The same problem also exists in section 4 of > > draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02. > > > > Best Regards, > > Fortune > > > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: pcn-bounces@ietf.org = > [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Fortune > > HUANG > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2008=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8824=E6=97= =A5 17:42 > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: pcn@ietf.org > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [PCN] Comment about draft-moncaster-pcn-3-state-enc= oding-00 > > > > Hi all, > > > > The table in section 6 seems to show that if a packet > > contains the DSCP > > value DSCP1 or DSCP2 and Not-ECT(00) at the same time, it is a Not-PCN > > packet. > > +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ > > | DSCP | Not-ECT (00) | ECT(0) (10) | ECT(1) (01) | CE (11) | > > +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ > > | DSCP 1 | Not-PCN | NM(Not-ECT) | NM(CE) | ThM | > > | DSCP 2 | Not-PCN | NM(ECT(0)) | NM(ECT(1)) | ETM | > > +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ > > In this case, for each incoming packets, the interior node > > needs to identify > > whether it is a PCN packet or not by two factors: the DSCP, > > and the ECN > > bits. Because as is shown in the table, even if a packet > > contains the DSCP > > value DSCP1 or DSCP2, it can also be a Not-PCN packet. > > However, as is known to us all, one factor (i.e. the DSCP) is > > enough to > > identify a PCN packet. And it will improve the performance > > before putting a > > packet into the PCN queue by using only one factor to > > identify a PCN packet. > > IMO, Not-ECT(00) doesn't need to be used. I wonder if we > > could put the table > > in this way: > > +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ > > | DSCP | Not-ECT (00) | ECT(0) (10) | ECT(1) (01) | CE (11) | > > +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ > > | DSCP 1 | - | NM(Not-ECT) | NM(CE) | ThM | > > | DSCP 2 | - | NM(ECT(0)) | NM(ECT(1)) | ETM | > > | DSCP x | Not-PCN | Not-PCN | Not-PCN | Not-PCN | > > +--------+--------------+-------------+-------------+---------+ > > NOTE: DSCPx is a DSCP codepoint other than DSCP1 and DSCP2. > > > > Best regards, > > Fortune > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PCN mailing list > > PCN@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PCN mailing list > > PCN@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PCN mailing list > > PCN@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn > > >_______________________________________________ >PCN mailing list >PCN@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn ____________________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, Networks Research Centre, BT Research B54/77 Adastral Park,Martlesham Heath,Ipswich,IP5 3RE,UK. +44 1473 64519= 6 = _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 15:25:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4065528C2E3; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:25:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E78128C2E3 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:25:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JbOgkmpIyhCW for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F0B28C21A for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=petri-meat.com) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KOgaL-0007gk-Ln for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:25:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:25:25 -0400 From: To: pcn@ietf.org Message-ID: <9860859c24d436354089fc9bbe795921@petri-meat.com> X-Sender: slblake@petri-meat.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Subject: [PCN] Moving draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behavior-01 to WG draft X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org There was strong consensus in the meeting today to move (the next revision of) draft-eardley-pcn-marking-behavior-01 to a WG draft. This email is to confirm the decision on the list. Please send comments within the next week. Regards, // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn From pcn-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 15:32:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pcn-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-pcn-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE3A3A6AEF; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:32:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: pcn@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A373A67A2 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id slw9wwVOnlA0 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elom.tchmachines.com (elom.tchmachines.com [208.76.80.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD4A3A69E0 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=petri-meat.com) by elom.tchmachines.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KOghj-0000kb-L2 for pcn@ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:33:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:33:03 -0400 From: To: pcn@ietf.org Message-ID: <0bc6597b39c96b8acffed272ee7975fc@petri-meat.com> X-Sender: slblake@petri-meat.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - elom.tchmachines.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - petri-meat.com Subject: [PCN] Moving draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 to WG draft X-BeenThere: pcn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: PCN WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: pcn-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pcn-bounces@ietf.org There was strong consensus in the meeting today to move (the next revision of) draft-moncaster-pcn-baseline-encoding-02 to a WG draft. This email is to confirm that decision on the list. Please send comments to the list within the next week. Regards, // Steve _______________________________________________ PCN mailing list PCN@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn