
From Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de  Thu Jul  1 01:24:35 2010
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Application of 3-in-1 to a single marking scheme
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Hi Michael,=20

thanks for pointing out. Only applying threshold marking for admission =
control=20
in an MPLS network indeed seems interesting to me.

Regards,

Ruediger

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Michael Menth
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 9:01 PM
To: Bob Briscoe
Cc: pcn
Subject: Re: [PCN] Application of 3-in-1 to a single marking scheme

Hi Bob,

Bob Briscoe schrieb:
> Michael,
>
> I thought single-marking only ever uses the excess-traffic marking =
algo?
Depends which "Single Marking" you are talking about ;-)
1) There is the SM edge behavior which uses only excess-traffic-marking
2) There is the admission control aspect of the CL edge behavior which=20
requires only threshold-marking. It was often discussed that this=20
feature may be deployed also without flow termination especially in MPLS =

networks when a third pcn codepoint is just not available. I think that=20
was often Ruediger's  and Joe's point. For this case it makes sense to=20
enable only threshold marking.

>
> Then marking algos can be hard-coded (ie no config needed) so ETM=20
> always marks CE and ThM (if used) always marks ECT(1).
>
> Is threshold marking ever used for single marking? Or is there any=20
> proposed scheme (that has been simulated and it works) where threshold =

> marking alone is used?
Yes, see 2) above.

Regards,

    Michael

>
> * If there is, then we need to cater for a)ii) and b)ii).
> * If there is not, but someone might want to try theshold marking=20
> alone in future, then that someone shouldn't expect to do something=20
> experimental without any configuration. Ie. they have to ask their=20
> router vendor to allow them to:
>   - either config their routers to encode threshold markings as CE=20
> [a)ii)]
>   - or upgrade their tunnels to comply with ecn-tunnel [b)ii)]
>
> Or am I missing something?
>
>
> Bob
>
> At 15:29 29/06/2010, Michael Menth wrote:
>> Hi Bob, Toby, and all,
>>
>> in 3-in-1 encoding we have the following mapping to ECN codepoints:
>>
>> not-ECT: not-PCN
>> ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
>> ECT(1):  threshold-marked (ThM)
>> CE:      excess-traffic-marked (ETM)
>>
>> 3-in-1 encoding can also be used with only a single marking scheme so =

>> that packets are re-marked to either ETM or ThM. Here we have two=20
>> fundamentally different encoding options:
>>
>> a) baseline style
>>
>> i) for excess-traffic-marking
>> not-ECT: not-PCN
>> ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
>> CE:      excess-traffic-marked (ETM)
>>
>> ii) for threshold-marking
>> not-ECT: not-PCN
>> ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
>> CE:      excess-traffic-marked (ETM)
>>
>> Here, only two codepoints are effectively used for pcn encoding=20
>> (ECT(0) and CE). When interior nodes perform threshold-marking, they=20
>> need to know whether the three-state 3-in-1 encoding is used or the=20
>> two-state 3-in-1 encoding to re-mark packets correctly. Thus,=20
>> interior nodes need to be configured with the exact encoding option=20
>> (three-state, a.i or a.ii). The advantage of this encoding scheme is=20
>> that it works well with old tunnels.
>>
>>
>> b) "no-encoding-config" style
>>
>> i) for excess-traffic-marking
>> not-ECT: not-PCN
>> ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
>> CE:      excess-traffic-marked (ETM)
>>
>> ii) for threshold-marking
>> not-ECT: not-PCN
>> ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
>> ECT(1):  excess-traffic-marked (ETM)
>>
>> Here, three codepoints are effectively blocked for pcn encoding=20
>> (ECT(0), ECT(1), and CE). With this encoding option, interior nodes=20
>> just need to know that 3-in-1 encoding is used and do not need to be=20
>> configured with any more information (such as three-state or b.i or=20
>> b.ii). The drawback is that threshold-marking does not work with=20
>> old-fashion tunnels.
>>
>>
>> When going from PCN encoding from IP headers to shim headers in MPLS, =

>> a "no-config" style cannot be maintained as it blocks 3 pcn=20
>> codepoints which is too expensive when only two of them are=20
>> effectively used. Therefore, LSRs need to be configured anyway=20
>> whether three-state encoding or two-state encoding using option i) or =

>> ii) is used.
>>
>>
>> Is my analysis clear and do you share it? What should be the=20
>> consequence for a two-state limitation of 3-in-1 encoding? Is a) or=20
>> b) more clever for two-state pcn in IP? It probably boils down to the =

>> question whether legacy tunnels are more important than=20
>> "no-encoding-config" for IP equipment.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>    Michael
>>
>> --=20
>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design=20

--=20
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn

_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de  Thu Jul  1 01:35:54 2010
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Application of 3-in-1 to a single marking scheme
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Hi Michael,

I'm not sure whether any complexity is possible at all. Some MPLS =
domains support=20
"pen ultimate hop popping", meaning that the MPLS top label is popped =
before the=20
packet reaches the Label Edge system. As far as I understand, =
downpropagation of=20
MPLS TC encodings must be straightforward in this case and may not allow =

many configuration options.

a) baseline style seem to be simpler.

Regards,

Ruediger

-----Original Message-----
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Michael Menth
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 4:30 PM
To: Bob Briscoe; Toby Moncaster; pcn
Subject: [PCN] Application of 3-in-1 to a single marking scheme

Hi Bob, Toby, and all,

in 3-in-1 encoding we have the following mapping to ECN codepoints:

 not-ECT: not-PCN
 ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
 ECT(1):  threshold-marked (ThM)
 CE:      excess-traffic-marked (ETM)

3-in-1 encoding can also be used with only a single marking scheme so=20
that packets are re-marked to either ETM or ThM. Here we have two=20
fundamentally different encoding options:

a) baseline style

 i) for excess-traffic-marking
 not-ECT: not-PCN
 ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
 CE:      excess-traffic-marked (ETM)

 ii) for threshold-marking
 not-ECT: not-PCN
 ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
 CE:      excess-traffic-marked (ETM)

Here, only two codepoints are effectively used for pcn encoding (ECT(0)=20
and CE). When interior nodes perform threshold-marking, they need to=20
know whether the three-state 3-in-1 encoding is used or the two-state=20
3-in-1 encoding to re-mark packets correctly. Thus, interior nodes need=20
to be configured with the exact encoding option (three-state, a.i or=20
a.ii). The advantage of this encoding scheme is that it works well with=20
old tunnels.


b) "no-encoding-config" style

 i) for excess-traffic-marking
 not-ECT: not-PCN
 ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
 CE:      excess-traffic-marked (ETM)

 ii) for threshold-marking
 not-ECT: not-PCN
 ECT(0):  not-marked (NM)
 ECT(1):  excess-traffic-marked (ETM)

Here, three codepoints are effectively blocked for pcn encoding (ECT(0), =

ECT(1), and CE). With this encoding option, interior nodes just need to=20
know that 3-in-1 encoding is used and do not need to be configured with=20
any more information (such as three-state or b.i or b.ii). The drawback=20
is that threshold-marking does not work with old-fashion tunnels.


When going from PCN encoding from IP headers to shim headers in MPLS, a=20
"no-config" style cannot be maintained as it blocks 3 pcn codepoints=20
which is too expensive when only two of them are effectively used.=20
Therefore, LSRs need to be configured anyway whether three-state=20
encoding or two-state encoding using option i) or ii) is used.


Is my analysis clear and do you share it? What should be the consequence =

for a two-state limitation of 3-in-1 encoding? Is a) or b) more clever=20
for two-state pcn in IP? It probably boils down to the question whether=20
legacy tunnels are more important than "no-encoding-config" for IP=20
equipment.

Best wishes,

    Michael

--=20
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn

_______________________________________________
PCN mailing list
PCN@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Mon Jul  5 00:15:27 2010
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Subject: [PCN] Fwd: request for initial version approval signaling draft
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Hi Scott, Hi Steven

According to the lats IETF PCN meeting the signaling draft could become a
WG draft. I have updated the draft according to the comments and to the
updated information in the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts, please see
attachment.

I have uploaded the draft as a 00 WG draft, but according to the
submission tool, see below the status is:
Draft Status: Initial Version Approval Requested

https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/status.cgi?submission_id=3D24742

Can you approve the initial version request?

Best regards,
Georgios

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From root@core3.amsl.com  Mon Jul  5 04:15:01 2010
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Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00.txt
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2010-07-04

Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain. The 
overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo 
describes the requirements for the signaling applied within the PCN 
domain: PCN feedback is carried from the PCN-egress-node to the 
decision point and the decision point may demand for the measurement 
and delivery of the PCN rate sent at the PCN-ingress-node. The 
decision point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or 
a centralized node.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Mon Jul  5 04:18:54 2010
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <pcn@ietf.org>
References: <20100705111501.D63D13A687E@core3.amsl.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 13:18:35 +0200
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Subject: Re: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00.txt
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  Hi all

Please note that draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00 has been
succesfully uploaded on the IETF archive, see below!

As already mentioned this version updates the previos individual draft
version by using the comments received 
during the last IETF meeting and according to the last updates of the CL and
SM edge behaviour drafts.

If you have any comments please send them to the PCN list asap and before
the 11th of July!


Best regards,
Georgios


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: maandag 5 juli 2010 13:15
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00.txt
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Congestion and 
> Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 
> 	Title           : Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) 
> Congestion Information in a DiffServ Domain
> 	Author(s)       : G. Karagiannis, et al.
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 9
> 	Date            : 2010-07-04
> 
> Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting 
> quality of service for inelastic traffic admitted to a 
> Diffserv domain. The overall PCN architecture is described in 
> RFC 5559. This memo describes the requirements for the 
> signaling applied within the PCN
> domain: PCN feedback is carried from the PCN-egress-node to 
> the decision point and the decision point may demand for the 
> measurement and delivery of the PCN rate sent at the 
> PCN-ingress-node. The decision point may be either collocated 
> with the PCN-ingress-node or a centralized node.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00
.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail 
> reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII 
> version of the Internet-Draft.
> 



From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Mon Jul  5 06:16:21 2010
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Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:16:21 +0200
From: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Organization: University of Wuerzburg
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Subject: [PCN] [Fwd: I-D Submitter Authentication for draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing]
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Hi all,

I just submitted a draft on "implicit-probing".
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing

It describes an admission control method that uses only the PCN-mark of 
an initial signalling message for a flow to decide whether admit or 
block that flow. The idea has been previously described in the 
psdm-encoding document and some people found this method useful. As it 
is independent of psdm, I formulated this mechanism as an own edge 
behavior which may use either baseline or 3-in-1 encoding.

Kind regards,

    Michael

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Betreff: 	I-D Submitter Authentication for draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing
Datum: 	Mon, 5 Jul 2010 05:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
Von: 	IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
An: 	menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de



Please follow the link below to complete your I-D submission.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/auto_post.cgi?auth_key=bBoak8PCJRyxYjL4OcqWZQiqbdhjbIS0&submission_id=24799

Please note that if you do not follow the link above by 2010-07-08, then this submission will be canceled and your Internet-Draft will be permanently removed from the staging area.

THIS PROCESS MUST BE COMPLETED BEFORE ANY CUTOFF DATES.  IF A CUTOFF PERIOD BEGINS BEFORE YOU COMPLETE THE SUBMISSION PROCESS, YOUR SUBMISSION CANNOT BE ACCEPTED.

The IETF Secretariat.


-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
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Just a minor point. Suggest using a less controversial term than 'probing'

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Menth
> Sent: 05 July 2010 14:16
> To: pcn
> Subject: [PCN] [Fwd: I-D Submitter Authentication for
> draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing]
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I just submitted a draft on "implicit-probing".
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing
>
> It describes an admission control method that uses only the
> PCN-mark of
> an initial signalling message for a flow to decide whether admit or
> block that flow. The idea has been previously described in the
> psdm-encoding document and some people found this method
> useful. As it
> is independent of psdm, I formulated this mechanism as an own edge
> behavior which may use either baseline or 3-in-1 encoding.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>     Michael
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Betreff:      I-D Submitter Authentication for
> draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing
> Datum:        Mon, 5 Jul 2010 05:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
> Von:  IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
> An:   menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>
>
>
> Please follow the link below to complete your I-D submission.
>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/auto_post.cgi?auth_key=3DbBoak8PCJRyxYjL4=
OcqWZQiqbdhjbIS0&submission_id=3D24799

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is submission will be canceled and your Internet-Draft will be permanently =
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BE ACCEPTED.

The IETF Secretariat.


--
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new) mailto:menth=
@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn

_______________________________________________
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From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Jul  5 09:27:40 2010
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <daisuke.satoh@ntt-at.co.jp>, <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 17:27:39 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] plan for PCN encodings, now ecn-tunnel is in last call
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Subject: Re: [PCN] plan for PCN encodings, now ecn-tunnel is in last call
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Agree with bob';s proposals, except I don't think we should obsolete the ba=
seline encoding until the new tunnel behaviour is widespread

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of SATOH Daisuke
> Sent: 29 June 2010 09:31
> To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> Cc: CHAN, Kwok Ho; PCN IETF list
> Subject: Re: [PCN] plan for PCN encodings, now ecn-tunnel is
> in last call
>
>
> Dear Bob, Michael, and all
>
>
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 01:34:55 +0200
> Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
>
> > Hi Bob and all,
> >
> > Bob Briscoe schrieb:
> > > Joe, Daisuke, Toby, Michael, Kwok,
> > >
> > > I writing to you all as co-authors of the various PCN encoding
> > > drafts
> > > and RFCs, and to Kwok as author of the encoding comparison draft.
> > >
> > > I have started this conversation between you all rather than
> > > starting
> > > numerous side conversations between slightly different sets of
> > > co-authors. I have also included the PCN list as there
> are others with
> > > interest in the outcome (not least the chairs). I hope
> that's OK -
> > > otherwise please accept my apologies and feel free to switch to
> > > off-list mode.
> > >
> > > The IETF last call on ietf-tsvwg-ecn-tunnel will end on 6 Jul 10.
> > > Assuming it goes thru without substantive changes, I
> would like to
> > > suggest a plan for how to deal with all the experimental
> PCN encodings
> > > and then to try to update the drafts accordingly before
> the Maastricht
> > > deadline.
> > >
> > > * draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding -> add applicability to sm{1} ->
> > > stds
> > > track
> > ok
>
> OK
>
>
> >
> > > * RFC5696 (baseline encoding) -> obsoleted by 3-in-1 encoding{2}
> > On the one hand I like the idea to have only a single relevant
> > encoding.
> > On the other hand I am not 100% sure that baseline encoding
> is no longer
> > needed as it may take some time until new tunnels will be deployed.
> >
> > I also thought that another advantage of baseline might be that it
> > requires only two PCN states so that it requires fewer
> codepoints in the
> > MPLS header. However, the same can be done with 3-in-1
> encoding if only
> > one marking scheme is used. After reading rfc 5129 it seems
> to me that
> > pcn is considered only in the appendix and that only 3-in-1 is
> > considered but baseline is not.  Therefore, when defining a
> necessary
> > adaptation from 3-in-1 to mpls shim, it is possible to define a
> > translation for three and for two used pcn states in that
> document. Hm,
> > has anybody understood me? Am I correct?
> >
>
> As Michael writes, adaptaion from 3-in-1 to mpls shim is necessary.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > * draft-ietf-pcn-3-state-encoding -> expt track or expire{3}
> > ok
>
> OK
>
> >
> > > * draft-ietf-pcn-psdm-encoding -> leave to expire?
>
> OK.
>
>
> > ok. I saw some positive comments about psdm. However, I think what
> > people like is rather the implicit probing feather than the
> encoding
> > itself. I'll provide a write-up to separate implicit probing (edge
> > behavior for admission control) from the encoding issue and
> make clear
> > that it equally works with baseline or 3-in-1 encoding.
> >
> > > * draft-satoh-pcn-st-marking -> (expired) -> leave to expire?
> > ok
>
> OK
>
> Best regards,
> Daisuke
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>

From tom111.taylor@bell.net  Mon Jul  5 09:35:40 2010
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Subject: [PCN] Last Call for SM and CL edge behaviour drafts
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Can we have WGLC for the SM and CL edge behaviour drafts?

Tom Taylor

From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Tue Jul  6 02:14:56 2010
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Last Call for SM and CL edge behaviour drafts
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Hi all

I agree with Tom!

We could have WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts! 

Best regards,
Georgios
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Tom Taylor
> Sent: maandag 5 juli 2010 18:36
> To: Scott Bradner; Steven Blake
> Cc: pcn
> Subject: [PCN] Last Call for SM and CL edge behaviour drafts
> 
> Can we have WGLC for the SM and CL edge behaviour drafts?
> 
> Tom Taylor
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From toby@moncaster.com  Tue Jul  6 02:38:06 2010
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I think that is a sensible compromise... We don't want to be left with an
encoding that doesn't work because vendors haven't adopted the new
tunnelling approach.

One idea I had was to try and incorporate baseline as a limited
functionality or compatibility mode within 3-in-1. Not really had a chance
to think through the implications though (I am currently fixated on conex
and haven't really got back up to speed with PCN).

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> philip.eardley@bt.com
> Sent: 05 July 2010 17:28
> To: daisuke.satoh@ntt-at.co.jp; menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> Cc: khchan@huawei.com; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] plan for PCN encodings, now ecn-tunnel is in last
> call
> 
> Agree with bob';s proposals, except I don't think we should obsolete
> the baseline encoding until the new tunnel behaviour is widespread
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of SATOH Daisuke
> > Sent: 29 June 2010 09:31
> > To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> > Cc: CHAN, Kwok Ho; PCN IETF list
> > Subject: Re: [PCN] plan for PCN encodings, now ecn-tunnel is
> > in last call
> >
> >
> > Dear Bob, Michael, and all
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 01:34:55 +0200
> > Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob and all,
> > >
> > > Bob Briscoe schrieb:
> > > > Joe, Daisuke, Toby, Michael, Kwok,
> > > >
> > > > I writing to you all as co-authors of the various PCN encoding
> > > > drafts
> > > > and RFCs, and to Kwok as author of the encoding comparison draft.
> > > >
> > > > I have started this conversation between you all rather than
> > > > starting
> > > > numerous side conversations between slightly different sets of
> > > > co-authors. I have also included the PCN list as there
> > are others with
> > > > interest in the outcome (not least the chairs). I hope
> > that's OK -
> > > > otherwise please accept my apologies and feel free to switch to
> > > > off-list mode.
> > > >
> > > > The IETF last call on ietf-tsvwg-ecn-tunnel will end on 6 Jul 10.
> > > > Assuming it goes thru without substantive changes, I
> > would like to
> > > > suggest a plan for how to deal with all the experimental
> > PCN encodings
> > > > and then to try to update the drafts accordingly before
> > the Maastricht
> > > > deadline.
> > > >
> > > > * draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding -> add applicability to sm{1} ->
> > > > stds
> > > > track
> > > ok
> >
> > OK
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > * RFC5696 (baseline encoding) -> obsoleted by 3-in-1 encoding{2}
> > > On the one hand I like the idea to have only a single relevant
> > > encoding.
> > > On the other hand I am not 100% sure that baseline encoding
> > is no longer
> > > needed as it may take some time until new tunnels will be deployed.
> > >
> > > I also thought that another advantage of baseline might be that it
> > > requires only two PCN states so that it requires fewer
> > codepoints in the
> > > MPLS header. However, the same can be done with 3-in-1
> > encoding if only
> > > one marking scheme is used. After reading rfc 5129 it seems
> > to me that
> > > pcn is considered only in the appendix and that only 3-in-1 is
> > > considered but baseline is not.  Therefore, when defining a
> > necessary
> > > adaptation from 3-in-1 to mpls shim, it is possible to define a
> > > translation for three and for two used pcn states in that
> > document. Hm,
> > > has anybody understood me? Am I correct?
> > >
> >
> > As Michael writes, adaptaion from 3-in-1 to mpls shim is necessary.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > * draft-ietf-pcn-3-state-encoding -> expt track or expire{3}
> > > ok
> >
> > OK
> >
> > >
> > > > * draft-ietf-pcn-psdm-encoding -> leave to expire?
> >
> > OK.
> >
> >
> > > ok. I saw some positive comments about psdm. However, I think what
> > > people like is rather the implicit probing feather than the
> > encoding
> > > itself. I'll provide a write-up to separate implicit probing (edge
> > > behavior for admission control) from the encoding issue and
> > make clear
> > > that it equally works with baseline or 3-in-1 encoding.
> > >
> > > > * draft-satoh-pcn-st-marking -> (expired) -> leave to expire?
> > > ok
> >
> > OK
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Daisuke
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Tue Jul  6 02:55:09 2010
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
References: <4C31DB25.8040008@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] [Fwd: I-D Submitter Authentication fordraft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing]
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Hi Michael

I have a comment on draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing:

In Section 3.3 you mention:

" In case of RSVP, the PCN-egress-node performs the following non-
   standard actions.  If the PCN-egress-node receives an initial not-
   marked PATH message, the PCN-egress-node forwards the message as
   usual.  If the PCN-egress-node receives an initial re-marked PATH
   message, the PCN-egress-node drops the PATH message and returns a
   PATH TEAR message to the previous RSVP hop indicating insufficient
   resources."

In my opinion you should use a PATH Err message instead of a PATH TEAR
message. 
This is because RFC 2205 specifies that PATH and PATHTear are sent
downstream and PATHErr is sent upstream, which is the situation mentiojned
in Section 3.3.

According to RFC 2205:
"A PathTear message travels towards all receivers
      downstream from its point of initiation and deletes path state, as
      well as all dependent reservation state, along the way."

"PathErr
      messages are very simple; they are simply sent upstream to the
      sender that created the error, and they do not change path state
      in the nodes though which they pass."


Best regards,
Georgios
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Michael Menth
> Sent: maandag 5 juli 2010 15:16
> To: pcn
> Subject: [PCN] [Fwd: I-D Submitter Authentication 
> fordraft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing]
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I just submitted a draft on "implicit-probing".
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing
> 
> It describes an admission control method that uses only the 
> PCN-mark of an initial signalling message for a flow to 
> decide whether admit or block that flow. The idea has been 
> previously described in the psdm-encoding document and some 
> people found this method useful. As it is independent of 
> psdm, I formulated this mechanism as an own edge behavior 
> which may use either baseline or 3-in-1 encoding.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
>     Michael
> 
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Betreff: 	I-D Submitter Authentication for 
> draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing
> Datum: 	Mon, 5 Jul 2010 05:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
> Von: 	IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
> An: 	menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> 
> 
> 
> Please follow the link below to complete your I-D submission.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/auto_post.cgi?auth_key=bBoak
8PCJRyxYjL4OcqWZQiqbdhjbIS0&submission_id=24799
> 
> Please note that if you do not follow the link above by 
> 2010-07-08, then this submission will be canceled and your 
> Internet-Draft will be permanently removed from the staging area.
> 
> THIS PROCESS MUST BE COMPLETED BEFORE ANY CUTOFF DATES.  IF A 
> CUTOFF PERIOD BEGINS BEFORE YOU COMPLETE THE SUBMISSION 
> PROCESS, YOUR SUBMISSION CANNOT BE ACCEPTED.
> 
> The IETF Secretariat.
> 
> 
> --
> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University 
> of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, 
> D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 
> (new) mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Tue Jul  6 05:21:23 2010
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Hi Georgios,

good catch. Thanks!

Regards,

    Michael

Georgios Karagiannis schrieb:
> Hi Michael
>
> I have a comment on draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing:
>
> In Section 3.3 you mention:
>
> " In case of RSVP, the PCN-egress-node performs the following non-
>    standard actions.  If the PCN-egress-node receives an initial not-
>    marked PATH message, the PCN-egress-node forwards the message as
>    usual.  If the PCN-egress-node receives an initial re-marked PATH
>    message, the PCN-egress-node drops the PATH message and returns a
>    PATH TEAR message to the previous RSVP hop indicating insufficient
>    resources."
>
> In my opinion you should use a PATH Err message instead of a PATH TEAR
> message. 
> This is because RFC 2205 specifies that PATH and PATHTear are sent
> downstream and PATHErr is sent upstream, which is the situation mentiojned
> in Section 3.3.
>
> According to RFC 2205:
> "A PathTear message travels towards all receivers
>       downstream from its point of initiation and deletes path state, as
>       well as all dependent reservation state, along the way."
>
> "PathErr
>       messages are very simple; they are simply sent upstream to the
>       sender that created the error, and they do not change path state
>       in the nodes though which they pass."
>
>
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>  
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Michael Menth
>> Sent: maandag 5 juli 2010 15:16
>> To: pcn
>> Subject: [PCN] [Fwd: I-D Submitter Authentication 
>> fordraft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing]
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I just submitted a draft on "implicit-probing".
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing
>>
>> It describes an admission control method that uses only the 
>> PCN-mark of an initial signalling message for a flow to 
>> decide whether admit or block that flow. The idea has been 
>> previously described in the psdm-encoding document and some 
>> people found this method useful. As it is independent of 
>> psdm, I formulated this mechanism as an own edge behavior 
>> which may use either baseline or 3-in-1 encoding.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>     Michael
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Betreff: 	I-D Submitter Authentication for 
>> draft-menth-pcn-implicit-probing
>> Datum: 	Mon, 5 Jul 2010 05:37:19 -0700 (PDT)
>> Von: 	IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
>> An: 	menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>
>>
>>
>> Please follow the link below to complete your I-D submission.
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/auto_post.cgi?auth_key=bBoak
>>     
> 8PCJRyxYjL4OcqWZQiqbdhjbIS0&submission_id=24799
>   
>> Please note that if you do not follow the link above by 
>> 2010-07-08, then this submission will be canceled and your 
>> Internet-Draft will be permanently removed from the staging area.
>>
>> THIS PROCESS MUST BE COMPLETED BEFORE ANY CUTOFF DATES.  IF A 
>> CUTOFF PERIOD BEGINS BEFORE YOU COMPLETE THE SUBMISSION 
>> PROCESS, YOUR SUBMISSION CANNOT BE ACCEPTED.
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>
>>
>> --
>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University 
>> of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, 
>> D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 
>> (new) mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>
>>     

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From carlberg@g11.org.uk  Thu Jul  8 12:03:10 2010
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01
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Georgios,

I apologize for the very tardy comments on this draft, but I have a =
couple items that I'd like to bring up.  Also, I may have missed some =
emails, or earlier discussions, so please correct me where I missed =
something.

A general comment: I noticed in several (sub)sections that a fair amount =
of text describes things as they are.  This is fine and quite helpful in =
terms of context, but I would expect that at the most atomic level, =
there needs to be one of the traditional statements of "SHOULD, MAY, =
MUST", or their negative counterparts, somewhere in the text of that =
subsection.  For example, subsections 2.1, 2.2, 3.1, and 3.2 do not have =
any of the SHOULD/MAY/MUST verbage.  And if we take a more detailed look =
at 2.1, SHOULD the interval be between 100 to 500 ms, or is this a MUST? =
 I'm being a bit nit-picky here, but I think the document would be =
stronger with more precise language and positions in these subsection.

In version -00 of your document, you had section "2.3.7 Security" which =
was taken out of version -01 of your document.  Given that section 2.3.1 =
advocates placing a higher priority for signaling packets over data =
packets, I think you need to either reinsert 2.3.7, or significantly =
strengthen your Security Considerations section.  And along these lines, =
if priority is added in some form, then some corresponding form of =
message authentication & integrity should be applied.  And one can argue =
that this is a function of the form of prioritization.

-ken



On Mar 8, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Georgios Karagiannis wrote:

> Hi all
>=20
> Based on the comments that we have received during the previous IETF
> meeting and email discussions we have updated the
> draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements requirements draft, see:
>=20
> =
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01.txt=

>=20
> If you have any comments please send them to us via the pcn mailing =
list!
>=20
> Best regards,
> Georgios
>=20
>=20
> --- Original Message ---
> Date: 3/8/2010
> From: "IETF I-D Submission Tool" <idsubmission@ietf.org>
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01
>=20
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, =
draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01.txt
> has been successfuly submitted by Georgios Karagiannis and posted to =
the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Filename:	 draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements
> Revision:	 01
> Title:		 Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) Congestion =
Information in a
> DiffServ Domain
> Creation_date:	 2010-03-08
> WG ID:		 Independent Submission
> Number_of_pages: 9
>=20
> Abstract:
> Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
> service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain. The
> overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This memo
> describes the requirements for the signaling applied within the PCN
> domain: PCN feedback is carried from the PCN-egress-node to the
> decision point and the decision point may demand for the measurement
> and delivery of the PCN rate sent at the PCN-ingress-node. The
> decision point may be either collocated with the PCN-ingress-node or
> a centralized node.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat.
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From sob@harvard.edu  Sat Jul 10 06:30:52 2010
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Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:30:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: sob@harvard.edu (Scott O. Bradner)
Subject: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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this starts a WGLC for 
 "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode 
  of Operation"  (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode 
   of Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).

comments to the list by July 24 please

Scott

From sob@harvard.edu  Sat Jul 10 06:35:46 2010
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From: sob@harvard.edu (Scott O. Bradner)
Subject: [PCN] no PCN meeting in Maastricht
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There will not be a PCN session in Maastricht.  Due to a death in the 
family I will not be able to make it and Steve is rather over-busy 
in his day job.

Sorry for the late notice.


Scott 


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Mon Jul 12 01:48:42 2010
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: "'ken carlberg'" <carlberg@g11.org.uk>
References: <xNyCSAny.1268072991.0153630.karagian@ewi.utwente.nl> <3F7B5049-637B-4274-8B5C-EAC19C1990F2@g11.org.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:48:30 +0200
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01
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Hi Ken

Thanks for your comments!

Please note that the newest version of the draft is the following, which is
a WG version:

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-pcn-signaling-requirements-00.txt

Regarding the use of SHOULD and/or MUST we will need some discussions on the
mailing list on their use!

Best regards,
Georgios


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ken carlberg [mailto:carlberg@g11.org.uk] 
> Sent: donderdag 8 juli 2010 21:03
> To: Georgios Karagiannis
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] Fwd: New Version Notification for 
> draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01
> 
> Georgios,
> 
> I apologize for the very tardy comments on this draft, but I 
> have a couple items that I'd like to bring up.  Also, I may 
> have missed some emails, or earlier discussions, so please 
> correct me where I missed something.
> 
> A general comment: I noticed in several (sub)sections that a 
> fair amount of text describes things as they are.  This is 
> fine and quite helpful in terms of context, but I would 
> expect that at the most atomic level, there needs to be one 
> of the traditional statements of "SHOULD, MAY, MUST", or 
> their negative counterparts, somewhere in the text of that 
> subsection.  For example, subsections 2.1, 2.2, 3.1, and 3.2 
> do not have any of the SHOULD/MAY/MUST verbage.  And if we 
> take a more detailed look at 2.1, SHOULD the interval be 
> between 100 to 500 ms, or is this a MUST?  I'm being a bit 
> nit-picky here, but I think the document would be stronger 
> with more precise language and positions in these subsection.
> 
> In version -00 of your document, you had section "2.3.7 
> Security" which was taken out of version -01 of your 
> document.  Given that section 2.3.1 advocates placing a 
> higher priority for signaling packets over data packets, I 
> think you need to either reinsert 2.3.7, or significantly 
> strengthen your Security Considerations section.  And along 
> these lines, if priority is added in some form, then some 
> corresponding form of message authentication & integrity 
> should be applied.  And one can argue that this is a function 
> of the form of prioritization.
> 
> -ken
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 8, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Georgios Karagiannis wrote:
> 
> > Hi all
> > 
> > Based on the comments that we have received during the 
> previous IETF 
> > meeting and email discussions we have updated the 
> > draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements requirements 
> draft, see:
> > 
> > 
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01
> > .txt
> > 
> > If you have any comments please send them to us via the pcn 
> mailing list!
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Georgios
> > 
> > 
> > --- Original Message ---
> > Date: 3/8/2010
> > From: "IETF I-D Submission Tool" <idsubmission@ietf.org>
> > Subject: New Version Notification for
> > draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > A new version of I-D, 
> > draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements-01.txt
> > has been successfuly submitted by Georgios Karagiannis and 
> posted to 
> > the IETF repository.
> > 
> > Filename:	 draft-karagiannis-pcn-signaling-requirements
> > Revision:	 01
> > Title:		 Requirements for Signaling of (Pre-) 
> Congestion Information in a
> > DiffServ Domain
> > Creation_date:	 2010-03-08
> > WG ID:		 Independent Submission
> > Number_of_pages: 9
> > 
> > Abstract:
> > Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting 
> quality of 
> > service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain. The 
> > overall PCN architecture is described in RFC 5559. This 
> memo describes 
> > the requirements for the signaling applied within the PCN
> > domain: PCN feedback is carried from the PCN-egress-node to the 
> > decision point and the decision point may demand for the 
> measurement 
> > and delivery of the PCN rate sent at the PCN-ingress-node. The 
> > decision point may be either collocated with the 
> PCN-ingress-node or a 
> > centralized node.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The IETF Secretariat.
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From rbriscoe@jungle.bt.co.uk  Mon Jul 12 02:48:09 2010
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Subject: [PCN] Does any RFC say PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate?
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PCN folks,

RFC5559 shows PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate as an example, but 
I can't find anywhere in the text where it says it is a rule.

I can't find anywhere in RFC5670 either.

Am I missing something?

Otherwise, we need to say this is a rule in the 3-in-1 encoding 
draft, which requires a severity ordering of the markings.


Bob



________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design 


From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Jul 12 02:57:01 2010
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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:57:05 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] Does any RFC say PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate?
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Does any RFC say PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate?
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5559 says [terminology section]

   o  PCN-threshold-rate: the reference rate of a threshold-meter, which
      is configured for each link in the PCN-domain and which is lower
      than the PCN-excess-rate.

There's no harm in saying it in the encoding doc as well!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Bob Briscoe
> Sent: 12 July 2010 10:47
> To: PCN IETF list
> Subject: [PCN] Does any RFC say PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate?
>
>
> PCN folks,
>
> RFC5559 shows PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate as an example, but
> I can't find anywhere in the text where it says it is a rule.
>
> I can't find anywhere in RFC5670 either.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Otherwise, we need to say this is a rule in the 3-in-1 encoding
> draft, which requires a severity ordering of the markings.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>

From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Mon Jul 12 03:02:23 2010
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Subject: Re: [PCN] Does any RFC say PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate?
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Hi Bob,

I think PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate should be a rule only for 
CL, but not for general use of PCN marking. If we require this ordering, 
we could unnecessarily preclude other uses.

In contrast, pcn-admissible-rate < pcn-supportable-rate must be a rule, 
anything else does not make sense.

Regards,

    Michael


Bob Briscoe schrieb:
> PCN folks,
>
> RFC5559 shows PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate as an example, but 
> I can't find anywhere in the text where it says it is a rule.
>
> I can't find anywhere in RFC5670 either.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Otherwise, we need to say this is a rule in the 3-in-1 encoding draft, 
> which requires a severity ordering of the markings.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Jul 12 03:40:04 2010
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Thread-Topic: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Some comments on the CL draft. I guess some of them are applicable to SM as=
 well.
Thanks
Phil

My only non-editorial comment is:-
S3.2.4
So CLE is not smoothed, even optionally?
[sorry - my brain hasn't been in PCN mode for ages, so I probably forget ol=
d agreements!]


Abstract
>>Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting quality of
   service for inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain.
Precongestion notification (PCN) is a means for protecting the quality of
   service of inelastic traffic admitted to a Diffserv domain.
[reads better to me]

>>PCN edge
Rfc5559 uses the term PCN-boundary-node. Ditto several times through the do=
c.

Intro
>>thus providing notification to boundary nodes about
   overloads before any congestion occurs
Change to "incipient overloads"?

>>The level of marking allows decisions to
   be made on whether to admit or terminate individual flows
Delete "individual" [seems redundant]

Terminology
PCN traffic =3D> PCN-traffic [several times]

"admission decision threshold"
Suggest hyphenate. I didn't find it obvious later [S3.3.1...] that it's a d=
efined term.
Also, later "CLElimit" appears as a synonym for admission(-)decision(-)thre=
shold, maybe this should appear in the terminology?

S2
>>   o  encoding of PCN status within individual packets is based on
      [RFC5696], extended to provide a third PCN encoding state.
      Extensions for this purpose will be specified by the IETF.
      Possible extensions are documented in [ID.PCN3state] or
      alternatively [ID.PCN3in1];
Delete "Extensions for this purpose will be specified by the IETF." - the n=
ext sentence says enough.

You could hypehnate some of the defined terms from RFC5559,
Domain =3D> PCN-domain; packets =3D> PCN-packets
Threshold meter =3D> threshold-meter; Excess-traffic-meter

>>   o  a PCN packet which is not-marked (NM) MAY be threshold-marked
      (ThM) or excess-traffic-marked (ETM);

   o  a PCN packet which is threshold-marked (ThM) MAY be excess-
      traffic-marked (ETM).
Which =3D> that (*2) [ietf defines how it uses which and that!]
Similarly for the first bullet in S3.2.1

S3.1
New para after first sentence?

The PCN egress node collects and reports the rates
Could add 'for each ingress-egress-aggregate'
Could hyphenate PCN-egress-node

S3.2.4
So CLE is not smoothed, even optionally?
[sorry - my brain hasn't been in PCN mode for ages, so I probably forget ol=
d agreements!]

S3.3.1
>>If the CLE was not
   provided in the report, the Decision Point MUST calculate it.
Maybe repeat the formula, or say "using the formula in S3.2.4"

S3.3.2
>> an estimate of the rate
   (Admit-Rate) at which PCN-traffic is being admitted to the aggregate
I don't like the phrasing. How about "an estimate of the
      rate of PCN-traffic that is destined for this specific PCN-egress-
      node" or "... this specific ingress-egress-aggregate".

S3.5
The table is good, though slightly odd that it's the first time seen the na=
mes of the Timers in first column

S5.3
"Recovery from overloads
   through the use of flow termination should happen within 1-3 seconds."
I think this was a requirement - and not a performance estimate. my guess i=
s that PCN flow termination will actually do better than this.

S5.4
>>   o  The DSCP(s) to be used to mark PCN traffic.
This needs to be something more general like "how the traffic is marked" [w=
hich anyway will include ECN field as well as dscp]
This parameter is also missing from the interior node list

>>edgepoints
PCN-boundary-nodes

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Scott O. Bradner
> Sent: 10 July 2010 14:31
> To: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>
>
>
> this starts a WGLC for
>  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode
>   of Operation"  (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode
>    of Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>
> comments to the list by July 24 please
>
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>

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http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-03.txt

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Betreff: 	New Version Notification for draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-03
Datum: 	Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
Von: 	IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
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A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-03.txt has been successfully submitted by Michael Menth and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding
Revision:	 03
Title:		 Encoding 3 PCN-States in the IP header using a single DSCP
Creation_date:	 2010-07-12
WG ID:		 pcn
Number_of_pages: 12

Abstract:
The objective of Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN) is to protect the
quality of service (QoS) of inelastic flows within a Diffserv domain.
On every link in the PCN domain, the overall rate of the PCN-traffic
is metered, and PCN-packets are appropriately marked when certain
configured rates are exceeded.  Egress nodes provide decision points
with information about the PCN-marks of PCN-packets which allows them
to take decisions about whether to admit or block a new flow request,
and to terminate some already admitted flows during serious pre-
congestion.

This document specifies how PCN-marks are to be encoded into the IP
header by re-using the Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
codepoints within a PCN-domain.  This encoding builds on the baseline
encoding of RFC5696 and provides for three different PCN marking
states using a single DSCP: not-marked (NM), threshold-marked (ThM)
and excess-traffic-marked (ETM).  Hence, it is called the 3-in-1 PCN
encoding.
                                                                                  


The IETF Secretariat.


-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Congestion and Pre-Congestion Notification Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Encoding 3 PCN-States in the IP header using a single DSCP
	Author(s)       : B. Briscoe, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-03.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2010-07-12

The objective of Pre-Congestion Notification (PCN) is to protect the
quality of service (QoS) of inelastic flows within a Diffserv domain.
On every link in the PCN domain, the overall rate of the PCN-traffic
is metered, and PCN-packets are appropriately marked when certain
configured rates are exceeded.  Egress nodes provide decision points
with information about the PCN-marks of PCN-packets which allows them
to take decisions about whether to admit or block a new flow request,
and to terminate some already admitted flows during serious pre-
congestion.

This document specifies how PCN-marks are to be encoded into the IP
header by re-using the Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
codepoints within a PCN-domain.  This encoding builds on the baseline
encoding of RFC5696 and provides for three different PCN marking
states using a single DSCP: not-marked (NM), threshold-marked (ThM)
and excess-traffic-marked (ETM).  Hence, it is called the 3-in-1 PCN
encoding.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pcn-3-in-1-encoding-03.txt

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Subject: Re: [PCN] Does any RFC say PCN-excess-rate >PCN-threshold-rate?
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Hi PCN folks,


I agree with Michael.


Daisuke


> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I think PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate should be a rule only for 
> CL, but not for general use of PCN marking. If we require this ordering, 
> we could unnecessarily preclude other uses.
> 
> In contrast, pcn-admissible-rate < pcn-supportable-rate must be a rule, 
> anything else does not make sense.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>     Michael
> 
> 
> Bob Briscoe schrieb:
> > PCN folks,
> >
> > RFC5559 shows PCN-excess-rate > PCN-threshold-rate as an example, but 
> > I can't find anywhere in the text where it says it is a rule.
> >
> > I can't find anywhere in RFC5670 either.
> >
> > Am I missing something?
> >
> > Otherwise, we need to say this is a rule in the 3-in-1 encoding draft, 
> > which requires a severity ordering of the markings.
> >
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Bob Briscoe,                                BT Innovate & Design
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 
> -- 
> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
-- 
NTT$B%"%I%P%s%9%F%/%N%m%8!J3t!K!!%M%C%H%o!<%/%F%/%N%m%8%;%s%?(B
$B:4F#!!BgJe!!(B(Daisuke SATOH, Ph.D.)
tel:0422-36-7502  fax:0422-36-7591
mailto: daisuke.satoh@ntt-at.co.jp


From tom111.taylor@bell.net  Fri Jul 16 06:13:00 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:13:03 -0400
From: Tom Taylor <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently reports can 
be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been suggested that we could 
cut down the messaging even further if we used a reporting threshold for 
computed CLE, such that there would be no report if computed CLE for the 
interval (and for the previous interval) was below the reporting threshold.

Comments?

Scott O. Bradner wrote:
> this starts a WGLC for 
>  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode 
>   of Operation"  (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode 
>    of Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
> 
> comments to the list by July 24 please
> 
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 
> 

From toby@moncaster.com  Fri Jul 16 06:22:40 2010
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
To: "'Tom Taylor'" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>, "'Scott O. Bradner'" <sob@harvard.edu>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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That seems a reasonable proposal, but we would probably want to say that it
should default to something very low.

Toby

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Tom Taylor
> Sent: 16 July 2010 14:13
> To: Scott O. Bradner
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
> 
> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently
> reports can
> be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been suggested that
> we could
> cut down the messaging even further if we used a reporting threshold
> for
> computed CLE, such that there would be no report if computed CLE for
> the
> interval (and for the previous interval) was below the reporting
> threshold.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
> > this starts a WGLC for
> >  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode
> >   of Operation"  (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
> >   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode
> >    of Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
> >
> > comments to the list by July 24 please
> >
> > Scott
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Fri Jul 16 06:24:17 2010
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From: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Tom,

I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
signalling messages is rather low.

Best wishes,

    Michael

Tom Taylor schrieb:
> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>
> Comments?
>
> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>
>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>
>> Scott
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From karagian@cs.utwente.nl  Fri Jul 16 07:27:54 2010
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From: "Georgios Karagiannis" <karagian@cs.utwente.nl>
To: <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>, "'Tom Taylor'" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Tom

I agree with the argumentation of Michael, i.e., do not introduce another
parameter that possibly avoids 
a few signalling messages in rare cases.   

Best regards,
Georgios


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Michael Menth
> Sent: vrijdag 16 juli 2010 15:24
> To: Tom Taylor
> Cc: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, 
> i.e., do not introduce another parameter that possibly avoids 
> a few signalling messages in rare cases. We are talking about 
> pre-congestion which should not occur during normal operation 
> so that the savings potential for signalling messages is rather low.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
>     Michael
> 
> Tom Taylor schrieb:
> > This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
> > reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
> > suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further 
> if we used 
> > a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
> > report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous
> > interval) was below the reporting threshold.
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > Scott O. Bradner wrote:
> >> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
> >> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
> >> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
> >>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) 
> Mode    of 
> >> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
> >>
> >> comments to the list by July 24 please
> >>
> >> Scott
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> PCN mailing list
> >> PCN@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > PCN mailing list
> > PCN@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 
> --
> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor University 
> of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science Am Hubland, 
> D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 
> (new) mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 



From fqhuang@huawei.com  Fri Jul 16 08:08:00 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:08:02 +0800
From: Fortune HUANG <fqhuang@huawei.com>
To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de, Tom Taylor <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Michael,

I think the most frequent scenario is that very few packets are PCN-marked for each interval, but the scenario that no packets are PCN-marked is actually a rare case. The following data shows the frequency of each scenario in my mind (the data is just for example):
    1) No packets are PCN-marked:          25%;
    2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 65%
    3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
    4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
    5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%

But without a reporting threshold as suggested by Tom, many reports will be sent to the decision point in the 2) scenario. So I think Tom's proposal really makes sense. 

Best regards,
Fortune

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
To: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
Cc: <pcn@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts


> Hi Tom,
> 
> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
> introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
> messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
> not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
> signalling messages is rather low.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
>    Michael
> 
> Tom Taylor schrieb:
>> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
>> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
>> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
>> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
>> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
>> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>>
>>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>>
>>> Scott
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> PCN mailing list
>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
> 
> -- 
> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>

From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Fri Jul 16 08:30:26 2010
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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Fortune,

I think that most of the time no packets will be PCN-marked at all and 
for this case signalling reduction already minimizes the signalling 
traffic. When some packets are marked, the PCN traffic rate is already 
close to to some PCN-threshold and this is usually not the normal 
operating condition of a network. Note that short traffic bursts do not 
mark packets if the queue size of the meter is set large enough. Also 
see page 7 of
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/papers/Menth08f.pdf

I think that the savings of the new mechanism will be small so that an 
additional parameter makes the overal mechanism just more complex. Apart 
from that, I do not think that the new mechanism does any more harm than 
actual signalling reduction.  A general problem with signalling 
reduction is the following: if the first PCN report with "low PCN 
pre-congestion" after a pre-congestion period is lost, further reports 
are suppressed and the decision point still assumes pre-congestion so 
that the decision point may block longer than needed. But this is 
probably also a corner case.

Kind regards,

    Michael


Fortune HUANG schrieb:
> Hi Michael,
>
> I think the most frequent scenario is that very few packets are PCN-marked for each interval, but the scenario that no packets are PCN-marked is actually a rare case. The following data shows the frequency of each scenario in my mind (the data is just for example):
>     1) No packets are PCN-marked:          25%;
>     2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 65%
>     3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>     4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>     5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>
> But without a reporting threshold as suggested by Tom, many reports will be sent to the decision point in the 2) scenario. So I think Tom's proposal really makes sense. 
>
> Best regards,
> Fortune
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
> To: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
> Cc: <pcn@ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>
>
>   
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
>> introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
>> messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
>> not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
>> signalling messages is rather low.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>    Michael
>>
>> Tom Taylor schrieb:
>>     
>>> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
>>> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
>>> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
>>> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
>>> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
>>> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>>>
>>> Comments?
>>>
>>> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>>>       
>>>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>>>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>>>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>>>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>>>
>>>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> PCN mailing list
>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>       
>> -- 
>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PCN mailing list
>> PCN@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>
>>     

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From fqhuang@huawei.com  Fri Jul 16 08:53:43 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 23:53:38 +0800
From: Fortune HUANG <fqhuang@huawei.com>
To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
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Hi Michael,

Even if that most of the tim no packets will be PCN-marked, it doesn't change the fact that the 2) scenario happens much more often than scenario 3), 4) and 5).
For example, it might be like the following:
     1) No packets are PCN-marked:          65%              // switch the percentages.
     2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 25%
     3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
     4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
     5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%

Generally speaking, a report should be sent in scenario 3), 4) and 5), but it doesn't need to be sent in scenario 2).
For the old mechanism, (25 + 6 + 3 + 1)% of the time a report should be sent; 
But for the new mechanism, (6 + 3+1)% of the time a report should be sent;
As you can see, 100% * 25/(25 + 6 + 3 + 1) = 71% signalling messages could be saved and this is certainly not a small proportion.


Best regards,
Fortune

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts


> Hi Fortune,
> 
> I think that most of the time no packets will be PCN-marked at all and 
> for this case signalling reduction already minimizes the signalling 
> traffic. When some packets are marked, the PCN traffic rate is already 
> close to to some PCN-threshold and this is usually not the normal 
> operating condition of a network. Note that short traffic bursts do not 
> mark packets if the queue size of the meter is set large enough. Also 
> see page 7 of
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/papers/Menth08f.pdf
> 
> I think that the savings of the new mechanism will be small so that an 
> additional parameter makes the overal mechanism just more complex. Apart 
> from that, I do not think that the new mechanism does any more harm than 
> actual signalling reduction.  A general problem with signalling 
> reduction is the following: if the first PCN report with "low PCN 
> pre-congestion" after a pre-congestion period is lost, further reports 
> are suppressed and the decision point still assumes pre-congestion so 
> that the decision point may block longer than needed. But this is 
> probably also a corner case.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
>    Michael
> 
> 
> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> I think the most frequent scenario is that very few packets are PCN-marked for each interval, but the scenario that no packets are PCN-marked is actually a rare case. The following data shows the frequency of each scenario in my mind (the data is just for example):
>>     1) No packets are PCN-marked:          25%;
>>     2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 65%
>>     3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>     4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>     5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>
>> But without a reporting threshold as suggested by Tom, many reports will be sent to the decision point in the 2) scenario. So I think Tom's proposal really makes sense. 
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Fortune
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>> To: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
>> Cc: <pcn@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Hi Tom,
>>>
>>> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
>>> introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
>>> messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
>>> not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
>>> signalling messages is rather low.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>>    Michael
>>>
>>> Tom Taylor schrieb:
>>>     
>>>> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
>>>> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
>>>> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
>>>> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
>>>> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
>>>> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>>>>
>>>> Comments?
>>>>
>>>> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>>>>       
>>>>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>>>>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>>>>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>>>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>>>>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>>>>
>>>>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>       
>>> -- 
>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> PCN mailing list
>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>
>>>     
> 
> -- 
> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
> 
>

From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Sat Jul 17 00:02:38 2010
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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:02:06 +0200
From: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Organization: University of Wuerzburg
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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Fortune,

it is clear that "some marked packets" are on the transition path from 
"no marked packets" to "all packets marked" and vice-versa. How often we 
see that in practice depends very much on the capacity of the network. I 
don't fight against the additional parameter that saves some signalling 
messages during the transition phase, I just want to point out that it 
does not lead to tremendous savings and makes the configuration  
unnecessarily more complex.

Your example: you assume that at least some packets are marked in 35% of 
the time. This would probably happen only in networks that are not well 
provisioned. Therefore, I do not think that it is realistic.

Kind regards,

    Michael

Fortune HUANG schrieb:
> Hi Michael,
>
> Even if that most of the tim no packets will be PCN-marked, it doesn't change the fact that the 2) scenario happens much more often than scenario 3), 4) and 5).
> For example, it might be like the following:
>      1) No packets are PCN-marked:          65%              // switch the percentages.
>      2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 25%
>      3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>      4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>      5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>
> Generally speaking, a report should be sent in scenario 3), 4) and 5), but it doesn't need to be sent in scenario 2).
> For the old mechanism, (25 + 6 + 3 + 1)% of the time a report should be sent; 
> But for the new mechanism, (6 + 3+1)% of the time a report should be sent;
> As you can see, 100% * 25/(25 + 6 + 3 + 1) = 71% signalling messages could be saved and this is certainly not a small proportion.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Fortune
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>
>
>   
>> Hi Fortune,
>>
>> I think that most of the time no packets will be PCN-marked at all and 
>> for this case signalling reduction already minimizes the signalling 
>> traffic. When some packets are marked, the PCN traffic rate is already 
>> close to to some PCN-threshold and this is usually not the normal 
>> operating condition of a network. Note that short traffic bursts do not 
>> mark packets if the queue size of the meter is set large enough. Also 
>> see page 7 of
>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/papers/Menth08f.pdf
>>
>> I think that the savings of the new mechanism will be small so that an 
>> additional parameter makes the overal mechanism just more complex. Apart 
>> from that, I do not think that the new mechanism does any more harm than 
>> actual signalling reduction.  A general problem with signalling 
>> reduction is the following: if the first PCN report with "low PCN 
>> pre-congestion" after a pre-congestion period is lost, further reports 
>> are suppressed and the decision point still assumes pre-congestion so 
>> that the decision point may block longer than needed. But this is 
>> probably also a corner case.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>    Michael
>>
>>
>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>     
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> I think the most frequent scenario is that very few packets are PCN-marked for each interval, but the scenario that no packets are PCN-marked is actually a rare case. The following data shows the frequency of each scenario in my mind (the data is just for example):
>>>     1) No packets are PCN-marked:          25%;
>>>     2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 65%
>>>     3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>>     4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>>     5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>>
>>> But without a reporting threshold as suggested by Tom, many reports will be sent to the decision point in the 2) scenario. So I think Tom's proposal really makes sense. 
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Fortune
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>> To: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
>>> Cc: <pcn@ietf.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>
>>>> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
>>>> introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
>>>> messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
>>>> not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
>>>> signalling messages is rather low.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>>    Michael
>>>>
>>>> Tom Taylor schrieb:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
>>>>> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
>>>>> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
>>>>> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
>>>>> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
>>>>> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments?
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>>>>>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>>>>>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>>>>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>>>>>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> -- 
>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>> -- 
>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>
>>
>>     

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From fqhuang@huawei.com  Sat Jul 17 01:22:46 2010
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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:22:48 +0800
From: Fortune HUANG <fqhuang@huawei.com>
To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Michael,

I am sorry that my previous example seems confusing.
Actually it is not important that packets are marked in 35% of the time or in 1% of the time. What really matters is that normally only very few packets are marked when packets are marked. Let's get rid of the time when no packets are marked but consider only the time when packets are marked.

      1) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 70%
      2) Some packets are PCN-marked:      15%
      3) Many packets are PCN-marked:      10%
      4) All packets are PCN-marked:          5%

For the old mechanism, in 100% of the time when packets are marked, a report should be sent.
For the new mechanism, only in 30% of the time when packets are marked, a report should be sent.
So 70% of the signalling messages will be saved by using the new mechanism.

Best regards,
Fortune

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts


> Hi Fortune,
> 
> it is clear that "some marked packets" are on the transition path from 
> "no marked packets" to "all packets marked" and vice-versa. How often we 
> see that in practice depends very much on the capacity of the network. I 
> don't fight against the additional parameter that saves some signalling 
> messages during the transition phase, I just want to point out that it 
> does not lead to tremendous savings and makes the configuration  
> unnecessarily more complex.
> 
> Your example: you assume that at least some packets are marked in 35% of 
> the time. This would probably happen only in networks that are not well 
> provisioned. Therefore, I do not think that it is realistic.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
>    Michael
> 
> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> Even if that most of the tim no packets will be PCN-marked, it doesn't change the fact that the 2) scenario happens much more often than scenario 3), 4) and 5).
>> For example, it might be like the following:
>>      1) No packets are PCN-marked:          65%              // switch the percentages.
>>      2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 25%
>>      3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>      4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>      5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>
>> Generally speaking, a report should be sent in scenario 3), 4) and 5), but it doesn't need to be sent in scenario 2).
>> For the old mechanism, (25 + 6 + 3 + 1)% of the time a report should be sent; 
>> But for the new mechanism, (6 + 3+1)% of the time a report should be sent;
>> As you can see, 100% * 25/(25 + 6 + 3 + 1) = 71% signalling messages could be saved and this is certainly not a small proportion.
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Fortune
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
>> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Hi Fortune,
>>>
>>> I think that most of the time no packets will be PCN-marked at all and 
>>> for this case signalling reduction already minimizes the signalling 
>>> traffic. When some packets are marked, the PCN traffic rate is already 
>>> close to to some PCN-threshold and this is usually not the normal 
>>> operating condition of a network. Note that short traffic bursts do not 
>>> mark packets if the queue size of the meter is set large enough. Also 
>>> see page 7 of
>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/papers/Menth08f.pdf
>>>
>>> I think that the savings of the new mechanism will be small so that an 
>>> additional parameter makes the overal mechanism just more complex. Apart 
>>> from that, I do not think that the new mechanism does any more harm than 
>>> actual signalling reduction.  A general problem with signalling 
>>> reduction is the following: if the first PCN report with "low PCN 
>>> pre-congestion" after a pre-congestion period is lost, further reports 
>>> are suppressed and the decision point still assumes pre-congestion so 
>>> that the decision point may block longer than needed. But this is 
>>> probably also a corner case.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>>    Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>>     
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>
>>>> I think the most frequent scenario is that very few packets are PCN-marked for each interval, but the scenario that no packets are PCN-marked is actually a rare case. The following data shows the frequency of each scenario in my mind (the data is just for example):
>>>>     1) No packets are PCN-marked:          25%;
>>>>     2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 65%
>>>>     3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>>>     4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>>>     5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>>>
>>>> But without a reporting threshold as suggested by Tom, many reports will be sent to the decision point in the 2) scenario. So I think Tom's proposal really makes sense. 
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Fortune
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>>> To: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
>>>> Cc: <pcn@ietf.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:23 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
>>>>> introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
>>>>> messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
>>>>> not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
>>>>> signalling messages is rather low.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>>    Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Taylor schrieb:
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>>> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
>>>>>> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
>>>>>> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
>>>>>> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
>>>>>> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
>>>>>> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>>>>>>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>>>>>>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>>>>>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>>>>>>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>> -- 
>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>
>>>
>>>     
> 
> -- 
> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
> 
>

From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Sat Jul 17 01:58:11 2010
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To: Fortune HUANG <fqhuang@huawei.com>
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Fortune,

I understand that you report conditional probabilities. The results are 
valid only under the condition that some packets are marked at all. My 
reasoning is that this is already a rare case and, therefore, the 
absolute savings in signalling overhead are small.

Regards,

    Michael

Fortune HUANG schrieb:
> Hi Michael,
>
> I am sorry that my previous example seems confusing.
> Actually it is not important that packets are marked in 35% of the time or in 1% of the time. What really matters is that normally only very few packets are marked when packets are marked. Let's get rid of the time when no packets are marked but consider only the time when packets are marked.
>
>       1) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 70%
>       2) Some packets are PCN-marked:      15%
>       3) Many packets are PCN-marked:      10%
>       4) All packets are PCN-marked:          5%
>
> For the old mechanism, in 100% of the time when packets are marked, a report should be sent.
> For the new mechanism, only in 30% of the time when packets are marked, a report should be sent.
> So 70% of the signalling messages will be saved by using the new mechanism.
>
> Best regards,
> Fortune
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>
>
>   
>> Hi Fortune,
>>
>> it is clear that "some marked packets" are on the transition path from 
>> "no marked packets" to "all packets marked" and vice-versa. How often we 
>> see that in practice depends very much on the capacity of the network. I 
>> don't fight against the additional parameter that saves some signalling 
>> messages during the transition phase, I just want to point out that it 
>> does not lead to tremendous savings and makes the configuration  
>> unnecessarily more complex.
>>
>> Your example: you assume that at least some packets are marked in 35% of 
>> the time. This would probably happen only in networks that are not well 
>> provisioned. Therefore, I do not think that it is realistic.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>>    Michael
>>
>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>     
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> Even if that most of the tim no packets will be PCN-marked, it doesn't change the fact that the 2) scenario happens much more often than scenario 3), 4) and 5).
>>> For example, it might be like the following:
>>>      1) No packets are PCN-marked:          65%              // switch the percentages.
>>>      2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 25%
>>>      3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>>      4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>>      5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>>
>>> Generally speaking, a report should be sent in scenario 3), 4) and 5), but it doesn't need to be sent in scenario 2).
>>> For the old mechanism, (25 + 6 + 3 + 1)% of the time a report should be sent; 
>>> But for the new mechanism, (6 + 3+1)% of the time a report should be sent;
>>> As you can see, 100% * 25/(25 + 6 + 3 + 1) = 71% signalling messages could be saved and this is certainly not a small proportion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Fortune
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
>>> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Hi Fortune,
>>>>
>>>> I think that most of the time no packets will be PCN-marked at all and 
>>>> for this case signalling reduction already minimizes the signalling 
>>>> traffic. When some packets are marked, the PCN traffic rate is already 
>>>> close to to some PCN-threshold and this is usually not the normal 
>>>> operating condition of a network. Note that short traffic bursts do not 
>>>> mark packets if the queue size of the meter is set large enough. Also 
>>>> see page 7 of
>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/papers/Menth08f.pdf
>>>>
>>>> I think that the savings of the new mechanism will be small so that an 
>>>> additional parameter makes the overal mechanism just more complex. Apart 
>>>> from that, I do not think that the new mechanism does any more harm than 
>>>> actual signalling reduction.  A general problem with signalling 
>>>> reduction is the following: if the first PCN report with "low PCN 
>>>> pre-congestion" after a pre-congestion period is lost, further reports 
>>>> are suppressed and the decision point still assumes pre-congestion so 
>>>> that the decision point may block longer than needed. But this is 
>>>> probably also a corner case.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>>    Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the most frequent scenario is that very few packets are PCN-marked for each interval, but the scenario that no packets are PCN-marked is actually a rare case. The following data shows the frequency of each scenario in my mind (the data is just for example):
>>>>>     1) No packets are PCN-marked:          25%;
>>>>>     2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 65%
>>>>>     3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>>>>     4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>>>>     5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>>>>
>>>>> But without a reporting threshold as suggested by Tom, many reports will be sent to the decision point in the 2) scenario. So I think Tom's proposal really makes sense. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Fortune
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>>>> To: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
>>>>> Cc: <pcn@ietf.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:23 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
>>>>>> introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
>>>>>> messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
>>>>>> not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
>>>>>> signalling messages is rather low.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Taylor schrieb:
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
>>>>>>> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
>>>>>>> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
>>>>>>> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
>>>>>>> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
>>>>>>> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Comments?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>>>>>>>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>>>>>>>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>>>>>>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>>>>>>>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>> -- 
>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>> -- 
>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>
>>
>>     

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From fqhuang@huawei.com  Sat Jul 17 18:08:07 2010
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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:08:01 +0800
From: Fortune HUANG <fqhuang@huawei.com>
To: menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
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Cc: pcn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Michael,

This saving is very important especially for the centralized case because a centralized decision point needs to handle reports from many PCN-egress-nodes for many ingress-egress-aggregates per PCN-egress-node. If you are against the new mechanism for the all the scenarios, a compromise would be  that we only apply it to the centralized case. Is that acceptable for you?

Best regards,
Fortune


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts


> Hi Fortune,
> 
> I understand that you report conditional probabilities. The results are 
> valid only under the condition that some packets are marked at all. My 
> reasoning is that this is already a rare case and, therefore, the 
> absolute savings in signalling overhead are small.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>    Michael
> 
> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> I am sorry that my previous example seems confusing.
>> Actually it is not important that packets are marked in 35% of the time or in 1% of the time. What really matters is that normally only very few packets are marked when packets are marked. Let's get rid of the time when no packets are marked but consider only the time when packets are marked.
>>
>>       1) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 70%
>>       2) Some packets are PCN-marked:      15%
>>       3) Many packets are PCN-marked:      10%
>>       4) All packets are PCN-marked:          5%
>>
>> For the old mechanism, in 100% of the time when packets are marked, a report should be sent.
>> For the new mechanism, only in 30% of the time when packets are marked, a report should be sent.
>> So 70% of the signalling messages will be saved by using the new mechanism.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Fortune
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
>> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Hi Fortune,
>>>
>>> it is clear that "some marked packets" are on the transition path from 
>>> "no marked packets" to "all packets marked" and vice-versa. How often we 
>>> see that in practice depends very much on the capacity of the network. I 
>>> don't fight against the additional parameter that saves some signalling 
>>> messages during the transition phase, I just want to point out that it 
>>> does not lead to tremendous savings and makes the configuration  
>>> unnecessarily more complex.
>>>
>>> Your example: you assume that at least some packets are marked in 35% of 
>>> the time. This would probably happen only in networks that are not well 
>>> provisioned. Therefore, I do not think that it is realistic.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>>    Michael
>>>
>>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>>     
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>
>>>> Even if that most of the tim no packets will be PCN-marked, it doesn't change the fact that the 2) scenario happens much more often than scenario 3), 4) and 5).
>>>> For example, it might be like the following:
>>>>      1) No packets are PCN-marked:          65%              // switch the percentages.
>>>>      2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 25%
>>>>      3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>>>      4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>>>      5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>>>
>>>> Generally speaking, a report should be sent in scenario 3), 4) and 5), but it doesn't need to be sent in scenario 2).
>>>> For the old mechanism, (25 + 6 + 3 + 1)% of the time a report should be sent; 
>>>> But for the new mechanism, (6 + 3+1)% of the time a report should be sent;
>>>> As you can see, 100% * 25/(25 + 6 + 3 + 1) = 71% signalling messages could be saved and this is certainly not a small proportion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Fortune
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>>> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
>>>> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>> Hi Fortune,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that most of the time no packets will be PCN-marked at all and 
>>>>> for this case signalling reduction already minimizes the signalling 
>>>>> traffic. When some packets are marked, the PCN traffic rate is already 
>>>>> close to to some PCN-threshold and this is usually not the normal 
>>>>> operating condition of a network. Note that short traffic bursts do not 
>>>>> mark packets if the queue size of the meter is set large enough. Also 
>>>>> see page 7 of
>>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/papers/Menth08f.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that the savings of the new mechanism will be small so that an 
>>>>> additional parameter makes the overal mechanism just more complex. Apart 
>>>>> from that, I do not think that the new mechanism does any more harm than 
>>>>> actual signalling reduction.  A general problem with signalling 
>>>>> reduction is the following: if the first PCN report with "low PCN 
>>>>> pre-congestion" after a pre-congestion period is lost, further reports 
>>>>> are suppressed and the decision point still assumes pre-congestion so 
>>>>> that the decision point may block longer than needed. But this is 
>>>>> probably also a corner case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>    Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the most frequent scenario is that very few packets are PCN-marked for each interval, but the scenario that no packets are PCN-marked is actually a rare case. The following data shows the frequency of each scenario in my mind (the data is just for example):
>>>>>>     1) No packets are PCN-marked:          25%;
>>>>>>     2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 65%
>>>>>>     3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>>>>>     4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>>>>>     5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But without a reporting threshold as suggested by Tom, many reports will be sent to the decision point in the 2) scenario. So I think Tom's proposal really makes sense. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Fortune
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>>>>> To: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
>>>>>> Cc: <pcn@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:23 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
>>>>>>> introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
>>>>>>> messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
>>>>>>> not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
>>>>>>> signalling messages is rather low.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Taylor schrieb:
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
>>>>>>>> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
>>>>>>>> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
>>>>>>>> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
>>>>>>>> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
>>>>>>>> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Comments?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>>>>>>>>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>>>>>>>>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>>>>>>>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>>>>>>>>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>> -- 
>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>
>>>
>>>     
> 
> -- 
> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
> 
>

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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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Hi Fortune,

as a university person I am not building equipment and accept 
architectural necessities of manufacturers and network operators. 
Therefore, I have nothing against the new mechanism. I just point out 
inefficiencies or exaggerated expectations on savings.

Best wishes,

    Michael

Fortune HUANG schrieb:
> Hi Michael,
>
> This saving is very important especially for the centralized case because a centralized decision point needs to handle reports from many PCN-egress-nodes for many ingress-egress-aggregates per PCN-egress-node. If you are against the new mechanism for the all the scenarios, a compromise would be  that we only apply it to the centralized case. Is that acceptable for you?
>
> Best regards,
> Fortune
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 4:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>
>
>   
>> Hi Fortune,
>>
>> I understand that you report conditional probabilities. The results are 
>> valid only under the condition that some packets are marked at all. My 
>> reasoning is that this is already a rare case and, therefore, the 
>> absolute savings in signalling overhead are small.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>    Michael
>>
>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>     
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> I am sorry that my previous example seems confusing.
>>> Actually it is not important that packets are marked in 35% of the time or in 1% of the time. What really matters is that normally only very few packets are marked when packets are marked. Let's get rid of the time when no packets are marked but consider only the time when packets are marked.
>>>
>>>       1) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 70%
>>>       2) Some packets are PCN-marked:      15%
>>>       3) Many packets are PCN-marked:      10%
>>>       4) All packets are PCN-marked:          5%
>>>
>>> For the old mechanism, in 100% of the time when packets are marked, a report should be sent.
>>> For the new mechanism, only in 30% of the time when packets are marked, a report should be sent.
>>> So 70% of the signalling messages will be saved by using the new mechanism.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Fortune
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
>>> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Hi Fortune,
>>>>
>>>> it is clear that "some marked packets" are on the transition path from 
>>>> "no marked packets" to "all packets marked" and vice-versa. How often we 
>>>> see that in practice depends very much on the capacity of the network. I 
>>>> don't fight against the additional parameter that saves some signalling 
>>>> messages during the transition phase, I just want to point out that it 
>>>> does not lead to tremendous savings and makes the configuration  
>>>> unnecessarily more complex.
>>>>
>>>> Your example: you assume that at least some packets are marked in 35% of 
>>>> the time. This would probably happen only in networks that are not well 
>>>> provisioned. Therefore, I do not think that it is realistic.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>>    Michael
>>>>
>>>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if that most of the tim no packets will be PCN-marked, it doesn't change the fact that the 2) scenario happens much more often than scenario 3), 4) and 5).
>>>>> For example, it might be like the following:
>>>>>      1) No packets are PCN-marked:          65%              // switch the percentages.
>>>>>      2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 25%
>>>>>      3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>>>>      4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>>>>      5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>>>>
>>>>> Generally speaking, a report should be sent in scenario 3), 4) and 5), but it doesn't need to be sent in scenario 2).
>>>>> For the old mechanism, (25 + 6 + 3 + 1)% of the time a report should be sent; 
>>>>> But for the new mechanism, (6 + 3+1)% of the time a report should be sent;
>>>>> As you can see, 100% * 25/(25 + 6 + 3 + 1) = 71% signalling messages could be saved and this is certainly not a small proportion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Fortune
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>>>> To: "Fortune HUANG" <fqhuang@huawei.com>
>>>>> Cc: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>; <pcn@ietf.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:29 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Hi Fortune,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that most of the time no packets will be PCN-marked at all and 
>>>>>> for this case signalling reduction already minimizes the signalling 
>>>>>> traffic. When some packets are marked, the PCN traffic rate is already 
>>>>>> close to to some PCN-threshold and this is usually not the normal 
>>>>>> operating condition of a network. Note that short traffic bursts do not 
>>>>>> mark packets if the queue size of the meter is set large enough. Also 
>>>>>> see page 7 of
>>>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/staff/menth/Publications/papers/Menth08f.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that the savings of the new mechanism will be small so that an 
>>>>>> additional parameter makes the overal mechanism just more complex. Apart 
>>>>>> from that, I do not think that the new mechanism does any more harm than 
>>>>>> actual signalling reduction.  A general problem with signalling 
>>>>>> reduction is the following: if the first PCN report with "low PCN 
>>>>>> pre-congestion" after a pre-congestion period is lost, further reports 
>>>>>> are suppressed and the decision point still assumes pre-congestion so 
>>>>>> that the decision point may block longer than needed. But this is 
>>>>>> probably also a corner case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fortune HUANG schrieb:
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the most frequent scenario is that very few packets are PCN-marked for each interval, but the scenario that no packets are PCN-marked is actually a rare case. The following data shows the frequency of each scenario in my mind (the data is just for example):
>>>>>>>     1) No packets are PCN-marked:          25%;
>>>>>>>     2) Very few packets are PCN-marked: 65%
>>>>>>>     3) Some packets are PCN-marked:      6%
>>>>>>>     4) Many packets are PCN-marked:      3%
>>>>>>>     5) All packets are PCN-marked:          1%
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But without a reporting threshold as suggested by Tom, many reports will be sent to the decision point in the 2) scenario. So I think Tom's proposal really makes sense. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Fortune
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>> From: "Michael Menth" <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
>>>>>>> To: "Tom Taylor" <tom111.taylor@bell.net>
>>>>>>> Cc: <pcn@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:23 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am in favor of leaving the mechanism as simple as it is, i.e., do not 
>>>>>>>> introduce another parameter that possibly avoids a few signalling 
>>>>>>>> messages in rare cases. We are talking about pre-congestion which should 
>>>>>>>> not occur during normal operation so that the savings potential for 
>>>>>>>> signalling messages is rather low.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Taylor schrieb:
>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> This comment is about the report suppression capability. Currently 
>>>>>>>>> reports can be omitted if no PCN marking was observed. It has been 
>>>>>>>>> suggested that we could cut down the messaging even further if we used 
>>>>>>>>> a reporting threshold for computed CLE, such that there would be no 
>>>>>>>>> report if computed CLE for the interval (and for the previous 
>>>>>>>>> interval) was below the reporting threshold.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Comments?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott O. Bradner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> this starts a WGLC for  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the 
>>>>>>>>>> Controlled Load (CL) Mode   of Operation"  
>>>>>>>>>> (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>>>>>>>>>>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode    of 
>>>>>>>>>> Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> comments to the list by July 24 please
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>>>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>>>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>>>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>>>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>>>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> PCN mailing list
>>>>>>>> PCN@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>> -- 
>>>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>>>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>>>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>>>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>>>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>>>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>> -- 
>> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
>> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
>> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
>> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
>> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
>> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>>
>>
>>     

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de  Mon Jul 26 02:24:58 2010
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Hi Tom,

thanks for working out a quite reasonable draft. I've one issue which I =
brought up several times and you did your best to write down somethinhg =
reasonable. My main question is, whether the topic how to identify an =
ingress-egress aggregate should be put out of scope for this document =
explicitely. A requirement specifying soltions should be mentioned in =
your draft. Or a discussion convincinng me that no such specification is =
required.

The introduction says=20

"Boundary node behaviours specify a detailed set of algorithms and
edge node behaviours used to implement the PCN mechanisms."

Section 4 says:

"4.  Identifying Ingress and Egress Nodes for PCN Traffic

   The operation of PCN depends on the ability of the ingress node to
   identify the ingress-egress-aggregate to which each new flow belongs
   and the ability of the egress node to identify the aggregate to which
   each received PCN packet belongs.  If the Decision Point is
   collocated with the ingress node, the egress node also needs to
   associate each aggregate with the address of the ingress node to
   which it must send its reports.

   The means by which this is done depends on the packet routing
   technology in use in the network.  In general, classification of
   individual packets at the ingress node (for enforcement and metering
   of admission rates) and at the egress node must use the content of
   the outer packet header.  The process may well require configuration
   of routing information in the ingress and egress nodes."=20

To me, this is not a detailed specification. Should we explicitely state =
that operationg PCN may require a routing set up and / or network =
configuration adapted to PCN operation? I'd rather prefer that to =
raising the impression that PCN may be operated on any Internet =
platform.

Your text is somehow stating that, I guess. But worries me if you refer =
to the "outer packet header" in section 4, while no other PCN document =
states that tunnels are a requirement (or is that a requirement I =
missed?).

I don't insist on doing this exactly as I propose it above. But I'd like =
the text above text to give a better indication to interested operators, =
that additional engineering on edge node and routing features is =
required before deploying PCN. =20

Regards,

Ruediger=20

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a few comments

terminology
you define "PCN encoding" as the process of setting the codepoints,=20
- it would be better if you added 'the process of...' [similar to architect=
ure draft definitions]
- you actually use the phrase "PCN encoding" to mean the codepoints (at lea=
st sometimes). For example in Figure 2 caption. i'm not sure whether it wou=
ld be better to define it as the codepoitns rather than the process. or per=
haps best, not to bother with a formal terminology definition, and just use=
 wording similar to the baseline encoding rfc.

"This document describes an extension to the baseliens encoding that addsa =
third PCN marking state..." - Please use a new paragraph - as this is the c=
rucial price of information in the intro.=20

penultimate para of S1 seems unnecessary and will probably just confuse peo=
ple [4 states to encode 3 pcn states]. if people are interested they can re=
ad the baseline encoding where this is all explained well.

i'm not sure that S3.1 and 3.2 add much. i think it would be better to skip=
 straight to the stds part of the text.=20

3.3 again this hides the important point with explanatory material.=20
the key sentence is the last one "PCN may ony be applied in PCN-domains tha=
t comply with [ecn-tunnel] or do not use tunnellng". the point would also b=
e useful in the Introduction, and perhaps the abstract as well.
is it appropriate to have some capital letters here? how about
PCN SHOULD be applied in PCN-domains that comply with ... and SHOULD NOT be=
 applied otherwise
??

S5 the first bullet is incomplete. MUST change NM to TM if threshold-meter =
indicates +and if excess-traffic-meter does not=20

S6.1 a better title would be Backwards compatibility with PCN Baseline enco=
ding=20
i wouldnt bother with the MUST here. you're really making operational sugge=
stions, as per the following setnence where you say 'required'
the 2nd para could be safely deleted as not relevant.=20
similarly in 6.2.3 i wouldn't capitalise SHOULD [especially odd, as the sec=
tion begins by stating it's Informative and not normative]

thans
phil=

From toby@moncaster.com  Mon Jul 26 05:50:17 2010
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From: "Toby Moncaster" <toby@moncaster.com>
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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:50:32 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PCN] comments on 3-in-1 PCN encoding
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This sparks one quick thought inline

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> philip.eardley@bt.com
> Sent: 26 July 2010 13:38
> To: pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: [PCN] comments on 3-in-1 PCN encoding
> 
> a few comments
> 
> terminology
> you define "PCN encoding" as the process of setting the codepoints,
> - it would be better if you added 'the process of...' [similar to
> architecture draft definitions]
> - you actually use the phrase "PCN encoding" to mean the codepoints (at
> least sometimes). For example in Figure 2 caption. i'm not sure whether
> it would be better to define it as the codepoitns rather than the
> process. or perhaps best, not to bother with a formal terminology
> definition, and just use wording similar to the baseline encoding rfc.
> 
> "This document describes an extension to the baseliens encoding that
> addsa third PCN marking state..." - Please use a new paragraph - as
> this is the crucial price of information in the intro.
> 
> penultimate para of S1 seems unnecessary and will probably just confuse
> people [4 states to encode 3 pcn states]. if people are interested they
> can read the baseline encoding where this is all explained well.
> 
> i'm not sure that S3.1 and 3.2 add much. i think it would be better to
> skip straight to the stds part of the text.
> 
> 3.3 again this hides the important point with explanatory material.
> the key sentence is the last one "PCN may ony be applied in PCN-domains
> that comply with [ecn-tunnel] or do not use tunnellng". the point would
> also be useful in the Introduction, and perhaps the abstract as well.
> is it appropriate to have some capital letters here? how about
> PCN SHOULD be applied in PCN-domains that comply with ... and SHOULD
> NOT be applied otherwise
> ??

I would be tempted to say something like "This encoding only works with
tunnels defined in [ECN-tunnel]. Therefore any tunnels deployed in a
PCN-domain using this encoding MUST comply with [ECN-tunnel]"

You can't have this as a SHOULD - quite simply this won't work with any
other type of tunnel...

And I agree, this is such a key point it needs to be in the introduction as
a minimum and possibly in the abstract even.


> 
> S5 the first bullet is incomplete. MUST change NM to TM if threshold-
> meter indicates +and if excess-traffic-meter does not
> 
> S6.1 a better title would be Backwards compatibility with PCN Baseline
> encoding
> i wouldnt bother with the MUST here. you're really making operational
> suggestions, as per the following setnence where you say 'required'
> the 2nd para could be safely deleted as not relevant.
> similarly in 6.2.3 i wouldn't capitalise SHOULD [especially odd, as the
> section begins by stating it's Informative and not normative]
> 
> thans
> phil
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn


From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Jul 26 06:11:55 2010
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From: <philip.eardley@bt.com>
To: <toby@moncaster.com>, <pcn@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:08:32 +0100
Thread-Topic: [PCN] comments on 3-in-1 PCN encoding
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Subject: Re: [PCN] comments on 3-in-1 PCN encoding
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> 3.3 again this hides the important point with explanatory material.
> the key sentence is the last one "PCN may ony be applied in PCN-domains
> that comply with [ecn-tunnel] or do not use tunnellng". the point would
> also be useful in the Introduction, and perhaps the abstract as well.
> is it appropriate to have some capital letters here? how about
> PCN SHOULD be applied in PCN-domains that comply with ... and SHOULD
> NOT be applied otherwise
> ??

I would be tempted to say something like "This encoding only works with
tunnels defined in [ECN-tunnel]. Therefore any tunnels deployed in a
PCN-domain using this encoding MUST comply with [ECN-tunnel]"

You can't have this as a SHOULD - quite simply this won't work with any
other type of tunnel...

And I agree, this is such a key point it needs to be in the introduction as
a minimum and possibly in the abstract even.


[phil] clarify - IP tunnels.
i tend to think things that are advice are SHOULDs - "buyer beware" if you =
do something else. what;s clear is that current IP tunnels would break this=
 encoding, and that it works with the [ecn-tunnel] doc; dont know about oth=
er tunnels, if indeed any exist.
anyway, i dont care much - the important thing is that the conditions under=
 which we expect the encoding to work and not to work - these should be mad=
e very clear.=

From toby@moncaster.com  Mon Jul 26 06:29:25 2010
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Subject: Re: [PCN] comments on 3-in-1 PCN encoding
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com]
> Sent: 26 July 2010 14:09
> To: toby@moncaster.com; pcn@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [PCN] comments on 3-in-1 PCN encoding
> 
> > 3.3 again this hides the important point with explanatory material.
> > the key sentence is the last one "PCN may ony be applied in PCN-
> domains
> > that comply with [ecn-tunnel] or do not use tunnellng". the point
> would
> > also be useful in the Introduction, and perhaps the abstract as well.
> > is it appropriate to have some capital letters here? how about
> > PCN SHOULD be applied in PCN-domains that comply with ... and SHOULD
> > NOT be applied otherwise
> > ??
> 
> I would be tempted to say something like "This encoding only works with
> tunnels defined in [ECN-tunnel]. Therefore any tunnels deployed in a
> PCN-domain using this encoding MUST comply with [ECN-tunnel]"
> 
> You can't have this as a SHOULD - quite simply this won't work with any
> other type of tunnel...
> 
> And I agree, this is such a key point it needs to be in the
> introduction as
> a minimum and possibly in the abstract even.
> 
> 
> [phil] clarify - IP tunnels.

Good point

> i tend to think things that are advice are SHOULDs - "buyer beware" if
> you do something else. what;s clear is that current IP tunnels would
> break this encoding, and that it works with the [ecn-tunnel] doc; dont
> know about other tunnels, if indeed any exist.
> anyway, i dont care much - the important thing is that the conditions
> under which we expect the encoding to work and not to work - these
> should be made very clear.=


We certainly need to spell out exactly the effect of any non-compliant
tunnel on this encoding (namely that it can both wipe or reset the
markings).



From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Mon Jul 26 07:53:55 2010
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Subject: [PCN] Hallway meeting?
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Hi all,

we do not have a WG meeting, but do you have time for a hallway meeting?

What are the issues to discuss? Probably some updates on the 3-in-1 
draft and some others?

I have time on Tue 13-17, Wed morning, Thu 15.10-16.10. What's good for you?

Best wishes,

    Michael

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From philip.eardley@bt.com  Mon Jul 26 09:25:06 2010
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wed 10.30-11.30 would be my preference from these suggestions,
thurs 15.10 i can't do

________________________________________
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ment=
h [menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de]
Sent: 26 July 2010 15:54
To: pcn
Subject: [PCN] Hallway meeting?

Hi all,

we do not have a WG meeting, but do you have time for a hallway meeting?

What are the issues to discuss? Probably some updates on the 3-in-1
draft and some others?

I have time on Tue 13-17, Wed morning, Thu 15.10-16.10. What's good for you=
?

Best wishes,

    Michael

--
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn=

From Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de  Mon Jul 26 16:52:11 2010
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=20
wed 10.30-11.30 would be my preference from these suggestions,

Works for me too. Regards, Ruediger

________________________________________
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael =
Menth [menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de]
Sent: 26 July 2010 15:54
To: pcn
Subject: [PCN] Hallway meeting?

Hi all,

we do not have a WG meeting, but do you have time for a hallway meeting?

What are the issues to discuss? Probably some updates on the 3-in-1
draft and some others?

I have time on Tue 13-17, Wed morning, Thu 15.10-16.10. What's good for =
you?

Best wishes,

    Michael

--
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn

_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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From daisuke.satoh@ntt-at.co.jp  Tue Jul 27 03:12:54 2010
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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:13:05 +0900
From: SATOH Daisuke <daisuke.satoh@ntt-at.co.jp>
To: <philip.eardley@bt.com>, menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
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Hi all,


Anytime OK.

Daisuke



	
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

wed 10.30-11.30 would be my preference from these suggestions,
thurs 15.10 i can't do

________________________________________
From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth [menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de]
Sent: 26 July 2010 15:54
To: pcn
Subject: [PCN] Hallway meeting?

Hi all,

we do not have a WG meeting, but do you have time for a hallway meeting?

What are the issues to discuss? Probably some updates on the 3-in-1
draft and some others?

I have time on Tue 13-17, Wed morning, Thu 15.10-16.10. What's good for you?

Best wishes,

    Michael

--
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


-- 
NTT$B%"%I%P%s%9%F%/%N%m%8!J3t!K!!%M%C%H%o!<%/%F%/%N%m%8%;%s%?(B
$B:4F#!!BgJe!!(B(Daisuke SATOH, Ph.D.)
tel:0422-36-7502  fax:0422-36-7591
mailto: daisuke.satoh@ntt-at.co.jp


From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Tue Jul 27 10:18:45 2010
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Hi all,

after all answers I have received, it seems that tomorrow, Wed 
10.30-11.30 is a good time slot for a brief meeting. Let's meet at the 
registration at 10.30.

Best wishes,

    Michael

philip.eardley@bt.com schrieb:
> wed 10.30-11.30 would be my preference from these suggestions,
> thurs 15.10 i can't do
>
> ________________________________________
> From: pcn-bounces@ietf.org [pcn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Menth [menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de]
> Sent: 26 July 2010 15:54
> To: pcn
> Subject: [PCN] Hallway meeting?
>
> Hi all,
>
> we do not have a WG meeting, but do you have time for a hallway meeting?
>
> What are the issues to discuss? Probably some updates on the 3-in-1
> draft and some others?
>
> I have time on Tue 13-17, Wed morning, Thu 15.10-16.10. What's good for you?
>
> Best wishes,
>
>     Michael
>
> --
> PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
> University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
> Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
> phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
> mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
> http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Thu Jul 29 12:14:38 2010
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Subject: Re: [PCN] PCN WGLC for the CL and SM edge behaviour drafts
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------070700090700010403060007
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Hi Tom, hi all,

sorry for being late. I made some proposals for better formulations in 
some cases when I found a passage hard to understand. I also suggest 
improved names for variables using the following idea:
Txyz: a timer name
Dxyz: the duration after which timer Txyz expires
I suggested more selfexplaining timer names for xyz
Suggest to change the variable name:
admission-decision-threshold (CLElimit) -> CLE limit (Lcle), otherwise 
this is confusing.

I hope my comments are all well visible in the attached Word file since 
Word crashed twice while revising the doc.

I also took care of Ruediger's comment and added appropriate text.

Kind regards,

    Michael


Scott O. Bradner schrieb:
> this starts a WGLC for 
>  "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Controlled Load (CL) Mode 
>   of Operation"  (draft-ietf-pcn-cl-edge-behaviour)  and
>   "PCN Boundary Node Behaviour for the Single Marking (SM) Mode 
>    of Operation" (draft-ietf-pcn-sm-edge-behaviour).
>
> comments to the list by July 24 please
>
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> PCN mailing list
> PCN@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pcn
>   

-- 
PD Dr. habil. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/31-86632 (new)
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


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