From nobody Thu Jul 5 09:57:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4D1130F43 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P1SxmGTuUNor for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DEDC130EED for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:b98:204:102:fffa::409] (port=56032) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fb7TV-0005AE-Sb for pearg@irtf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 17:51:26 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_46E05A70-215F-42BC-9485-DF93FB9F9AA6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) Message-Id: <7C2520E6-C1F6-49B2-900D-38E1F624B2E7@sinodun.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:51:17 +0100 To: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 09:57:30 -0700 Subject: [Pearg] Welcome to the Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG mailing list! X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:51:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_46E05A70-215F-42BC-9485-DF93FB9F9AA6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear All,=20 We would like to announce the first meeting (a side meeting) of the = Privacy Enhancements and Assessment (PEA) Proposed RG to be held at IETF = 102 in Montreal. We are waiting confirmation of our time slot, we have = requested 18:40 on Tuesday 17th July and will post to this list as soon = as we have more details. The chairs for this Proposed RG are: Sara Dickinson (sara@sinodun.com ) and=20 Shivan Sahib (ssahib@salesforce.com ) This side meeting is planned as an informal discussion for parties = interested in participating in the Proposed RG. There will be an = overview of the proposed charter (see below) and we would like to = solicit feedback on the charter and also possible future work in the = group.=20 As food for thought we believe that there are several ongoing = privacy-relevant efforts and discussions in various IETF and IRTF groups = that would benefit from a dedicated group for analysis, including: - [QUIC] Privacy leaks via passive network management via the proposed = QUIC spin bit. - [QUIC] Connection migration and multipath privacy properties of = exposed packet header information. - [DoH] Privacy implications for various use cases and for server = operators. - [DRUI (BoF)] Privacy implications of DNS resolver discovery = mechanisms. - [DNSSD] Private service discovery threat model formulation and = solution analysis. - [DPRIVE] BCP for operators of DNS privacy services. Padding profile = analysis. - [ICNRG] Privacy implications of unencrypted content requests = (interests). - [TRANS] Privacy implications of certificate transparency gossiping. - [RTCWEB] Privacy issues around exposing private IP addresses in WebRTC Equally important, there is active research being conducted in the = academic and open source communities around privacy preserving = techniques that the IETF and IRTF could benefit from adopting. We=E2=80=99ll also discuss scheduling future meetings, including = possible co-location with events other than the IETF.=20 Best regards Sara & Shivan # Draft Charter ## Background Privacy is an increasingly desirable and often necessary property for = Internet technologies. Evidence suggests that attacks on societal, = community, and individual privacy occur with non-negligible frequency, = as discussed in detail in RFC 7258 and in protocol-specific documents = such as RFC 7626. Pervasive monitoring [RFC 7258], is a well known = attack on privacy at incredible scale. The IETF and IAB responses to = such attacks is to push for widespread end-to-end encryption. = Understanding attacks on privacy and the costs of addressing them is = critical for ensuring the longevity, usability, and viability of = Internet technologies.=20 Alongside such work the emergence of global and region-specific = legislation in this area e.g. GDPR provides further motivation for = enhancing available privacy techniques (beyond end-to-end encryption), = advancing the state-of-the-art for privacy in protocols, and for = assessing privacy of existing protocols.=20 ## Objectives The Privacy Enhancements and Assessments Research Group (PEARG) is a = general forum for discussing and reviewing privacy enhancing = technologies for network protocols and distributed systems in general, = and for the IETF in particular. The PEARG serves as a bridge between = theory and practice, bringing new privacy-enhancing technologies to the = Internet community and promoting an understanding of the use and = applicability of these mechanisms via Informational RFCs (in the = tradition of HMAC [RFC 2104]). Our goal is to provide a forum for = discussion and analyzing the cryptographic and practical aspects of = privacy protocols, and to offer guidance on the use of emerging = techniques and new uses of existing ones. IETF working groups = developing protocols that include privacy technology elements are = welcome to bring questions concerning the protocols to the PEARG for = advice. The Assessments objective of PEARG will include partaking in the = following tasks: 1) Reviewing privacy properties (informed by but not limited to the = analysis in RFC6973) of existing and emerging IETF protocols, 2) Developing specifications in the tradition of RFC 6973 that offer = guidance for protocol design and development and advice on = privacy-enhancement. =20 This work will involve outreach to ensure close cooperation with similar = and related efforts in IETF.=20 ## Meetings The PEARG will meet two to three times per year, as deemed necessary by = the chairs and according to demand. At least one PEARG meeting will be = co-located with an IETF meeting per year. The PEARG will also meet = collocated with relevant academic conferences, such as the Privacy = Enhancing Technologies Symposium (PETS), yearly if possible. = Participation is open to all.=20 Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published = proceedings, with remote participation and recording as provided by the = meeting venue, according to the IRTF=E2=80=99s IPR policy.=20 The chairs may at times appoint at their pleasure =E2=80=9Cclosed=E2=80=9D= design teams with lesser reporting requirements (though results will be = open). This will allow for some limited discussions in which = participants require extra privacy. This does not relax the Note Well: = for all activities of the RG, as for all other activities of IRTF, the = Note Well applies [https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/]. ## Collaborations PEARG will actively engage with academic and open source (e.g. Tor = project, EFF, OTF) communities and encourage specification of key = privacy-enhancing technologies in Informational or Experimental RFCs. = Example current emerging technologies where interest is solicited = include: 1. Differential privacy techniques applied to networked and distributed = systems 2. Anti-fingerprinting techniques 3. Potential uses of MPC for privacy=20 PEARG is related to security and cryptographic protocols in the IETF and = IRTF. Among the IETF working groups, PEARG will collaborate to ensure = and encourage collaboration so that desirable privacy properties are = upheld for the Internet community. PEARG will also collaborate with the = CFRG to ensure cryptographic techniques and algorithms are used = appropriately for their intended purpose. --Apple-Mail=_46E05A70-215F-42BC-9485-DF93FB9F9AA6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Dear All, 

We would like to announce the first meeting (a side meeting) = of the Privacy Enhancements and Assessment (PEA) Proposed RG to be held = at IETF 102 in Montreal. We are waiting confirmation of our time slot, = we have requested 18:40 on Tuesday 17th July and will post to this list = as soon as we have more details.

The chairs for this Proposed RG = are:
Sara Dickinson (sara@sinodun.com) = and 
Shivan Sahib (ssahib@salesforce.com)

This side meeting is planned as an = informal discussion for parties interested in participating in the = Proposed RG. There will be an overview of the proposed charter (see = below) and we would like to solicit feedback on the charter and also = possible future work in the group. 

As food for thought we believe that = there are several ongoing privacy-relevant efforts and discussions in = various IETF and IRTF groups that would benefit from a dedicated group = for analysis, including:

- [QUIC] Privacy leaks via = passive network management via the proposed QUIC spin bit.
-= [QUIC] Connection migration and multipath privacy properties of exposed = packet header information.
- [DoH] Privacy implications = for various use cases and for server operators.
- [DRUI = (BoF)] Privacy implications of DNS resolver discovery mechanisms.
- [DNSSD] Private service discovery threat model formulation = and solution analysis.
- [DPRIVE] BCP for operators of DNS = privacy services. Padding profile analysis.
- [ICNRG] = Privacy implications of unencrypted content requests (interests).
- [TRANS] Privacy implications of certificate transparency = gossiping.
- [RTCWEB] Privacy issues around exposing = private IP addresses in WebRTC

Equally important, there is active research being conducted = in the academic and open source communities around privacy preserving = techniques that the IETF and IRTF could benefit from adopting.

We=E2=80=99= ll also discuss scheduling future meetings, including possible = co-location with events other than the IETF. 

Best regards

Sara & Shivan




# Draft Charter

## = Background

Privacy is an increasingly = desirable and often necessary property for Internet technologies. = Evidence suggests that attacks on societal, community, = and individual privacy occur with non-negligible frequency, as = discussed in detail in RFC 7258 and in protocol-specific documents such = as RFC 7626. Pervasive monitoring [RFC 7258], is a well known = attack on privacy at incredible scale.  The IETF and IAB responses = to such attacks is to push for widespread end-to-end encryption. = Understanding attacks on privacy and the costs of addressing them is = critical for ensuring the longevity, usability, and viability of = Internet technologies. 

Alongside such = work the emergence of global and region-specific legislation in this = area e.g. GDPR provides further motivation for enhancing = available privacy techniques (beyond end-to-end encryption), = advancing the state-of-the-art for privacy in protocols, and for = assessing privacy of existing protocols. 

## Objectives

The Privacy = Enhancements and Assessments Research Group (PEARG) is a general forum = for discussing and reviewing privacy enhancing technologies for = network protocols and distributed systems in general, and for the IETF = in particular. The PEARG serves as a bridge between theory and = practice, bringing new privacy-enhancing technologies to the = Internet community and promoting an understanding of the use and = applicability of these mechanisms via Informational RFCs (in the = tradition of HMAC [RFC 2104]).  Our goal is to provide a forum for = discussion and analyzing the cryptographic and practical aspects of = privacy protocols, and to offer guidance on the use of emerging = techniques and new uses of existing ones.  IETF working groups = developing protocols that include privacy technology elements are = welcome to bring questions concerning the protocols to the PEARG for = advice.

The Assessments objective of PEARG = will include partaking in the following tasks:

1) Reviewing privacy properties (informed by but not limited = to the analysis in RFC6973) of existing and emerging IETF protocols,

2) Developing specifications in the tradition = of RFC 6973 that offer guidance for protocol design and development = and advice on privacy-enhancement.  

This work will involve outreach to = ensure close cooperation with similar and related efforts in = IETF. 

## = Meetings

The PEARG = will meet two to three times per year, as deemed necessary by the chairs = and according to demand. At least one PEARG meeting will be co-located = with an IETF meeting per year. The PEARG will also meet collocated with = relevant academic conferences, such as the Privacy = Enhancing Technologies Symposium (PETS), yearly if possible. = Participation is open to all. 

Meetings = are by default open with open attendance and published proceedings, with = remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting = venue, according to the IRTF=E2=80=99s IPR policy. 

The chairs may at times appoint at their = pleasure =E2=80=9Cclosed=E2=80=9D design teams with lesser reporting = requirements (though results will be open).  This will allow = for some limited discussions in which participants require extra = privacy.  This does not relax the Note Well:  for all = activities of the RG, as for all other activities of IRTF, the Note = Well applies [https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/].

## Collaborations

PEARG will actively engage with = academic and open source (e.g. Tor project, EFF, OTF) communities and = encourage specification of key privacy-enhancing technologies in = Informational or Experimental RFCs.  Example current emerging = technologies where interest is solicited include:

1. Differential privacy techniques applied to networked and = distributed systems
2. Anti-fingerprinting techniques
3. Potential uses of MPC for privacy 

PEARG is related to security and cryptographic protocols in = the IETF and IRTF. Among the IETF working groups, PEARG will collaborate = to ensure and encourage collaboration so that desirable privacy = properties are upheld for the Internet community. PEARG will also = collaborate with the CFRG to ensure cryptographic techniques and = algorithms are used appropriately for their intended purpose.


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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sara, I noticed your announcement and the content of the planned work is interest= ing. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, which overlaps with the soci= al event. I wonder whether this was an oversight. Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_VI1PR0801MB211262216AF10CB1A576CDD7FA460VI1PR0801MB2112_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Sara,

 

I noticed your announcement and the content of the p= lanned work is interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, which= overlaps with the social event.

I wonder whether this was an oversight. <= /p>

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_VI1PR0801MB211262216AF10CB1A576CDD7FA460VI1PR0801MB2112_-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 09:02:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217E3131007 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jnkSpFJgiPzb for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x236.google.com (mail-pl0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A921C130E31 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x236.google.com with SMTP id 6-v6so6234687plb.0 for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 09:02:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GT7Yu11uYtwAF2x028tlJ7/6AWYGFKsrrBRlocrmaxw=; b=TYk83wQEW4/aLaPiRioqIAOFPQKZGWVrYcUKqBNF4Pf/vjQ7aon/6PoTG8qANQTCaM wkYKnPorlYYfHmQ1OyhKCuPI1Qntti7NaJNuszP9NsbvIKjhPo6tO3cuB3cPbuk9+B6n kjFZQ+vVwclnFxZazCNonPqeF5zMNMf6m2QFIf2C6rU9UJScPhtdFh1j1icQLsGU+l3G OkwQ1AlR8ZC03keB4ryLK+I45ERTP2cyI9po/jL1h4guKK9I1V6wTNxNcyxZlCltr7tA GiWSYRuPJs1YkssmGRos/8mYktlCJyw0qG35vQU+RYJ54ok46ke4Guf4Tju8YU215zla KpkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GT7Yu11uYtwAF2x028tlJ7/6AWYGFKsrrBRlocrmaxw=; b=HcukDmMvL6YWoreIGtcWaQ+M8RO6PpTfJpOZer9zZSQE0XkBhYLPNa5d1jsID5QYqV zjFjpUd7zVR4vfYSrGbkhOxEcekE90bsTCLJpjDYnrTHZCswVzF/02BChLYfjj+itdQV 13/N5/o4wMKbokwB0lLqaKjvHStER1MNjtnsQdLsTrcC2Ex//LGWOXVjjCxJDtypZIEP yIoRaqyhobXLQGYV6BnkhGrO9fHIL/QOQ1G7dY+NTx/M2Ce8RMlwOnpsgUXHxh7w9Tdk GizHhEMk3/oHhJaXDe3WUSXpEsFnwfIuMp8QmpVWif61E5oVKPycZ6sP+v3UGHn5yf0e MpSg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3fsKO8pOAH5JIl81wjrfWbET5jCwd2TKZ1M2G5F23a3ZxCxhFK i3YnOarhnuEJRwukZXxAHBWucf3cXyQskhmkU68= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpf+PBoUUz19NAAmv7NlWuzbA30N5TGugGkXnOP6g51yOmNaRft/TLwLssR/1A62eQ/hK7chksfIY1kLKQ6Z5dY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7202:: with SMTP id ba2-v6mr20700500plb.119.1531152126883; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ac18:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Allison Mankin Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:02:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: "Pearg@irtf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009ebec805709322f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] PEA Meeting @ IETF X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 16:02:10 -0000 --0000000000009ebec805709322f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Hannes, I think if this does end up on Tuesday, it will end early enough for the social. A room hasn't been found yet, so stay tuned. Allison (for the IRTF) On 7 July 2018 at 03:58, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Sara, > > > > I noticed your announcement and the content of the planned work is > interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, which overlaps with > the social event. > > I wonder whether this was an oversight. > > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > > --0000000000009ebec805709322f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Hannes,

I think if this does e= nd up on Tuesday, it will end early enough for the social.=C2=A0 A room has= n't been found yet, so stay tuned.

Allison (for th= e IRTF)

On 7 July 2018 at 03:58, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofeni= g@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Sara,

=C2=A0

I noticed your announcement and the content of the p= lanned work is interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, which= overlaps with the social event.

I wonder whether this was an oversight.

=C2=A0

Ciao

Hannes

=C2=A0

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

--
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--0000000000009ebec805709322f9-- From nobody Sat Jul 14 13:50:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA4B130E4D for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:50:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fa6MF0aQJdCe for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D33A1130DC5 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:67c:1232:144:3d64:51b4:a354:7d71] (port=60645) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1feRUz-0001v4-3U; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:50:41 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Message-Id: <33B75743-6A88-419E-9B5E-1D2730EA56AE@sinodun.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B257E01-1629-4ACD-97DE-482F5B512833" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 16:50:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Allison Mankin , Shivan Sahib To: "Pearg@irtf.org" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 24 Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] IETF 102 - PEARG Side meeting: 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018 X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 20:50:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B257E01-1629-4ACD-97DE-482F5B512833 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All,=20 We have our meeting time confirmed now - we are going to squeeze the = meeting in on Tuesday between then end of the last session and the start = of the social: Saint-Denis room from 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018 Our proposed agenda is: * Welcome by the chairs * Review of the Proposed charter. Request for comments and discussion * Review of the list of WG with work or interest and topics sent to = mailing list * Request for discussion on proposed work, particularly that outside = of the IETF * Also requests for people willing to champion/shepherd along topics=20= * Discussion of future meetings and co-location ideas * Head to the social! but please feel free to suggest other topics.=20 Best regards Sara.=20 > On 9 Jul 2018, at 12:02, Allison Mankin = wrote: >=20 > Hi, Hannes, >=20 > I think if this does end up on Tuesday, it will end early enough for = the social. A room hasn't been found yet, so stay tuned. >=20 > Allison (for the IRTF) >=20 > On 7 July 2018 at 03:58, Hannes Tschofenig > wrote: > Hi Sara, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I noticed your announcement and the content of the planned work is = interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, which overlaps = with the social event. >=20 > I wonder whether this was an oversight. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Ciao >=20 > Hannes >=20 > =20 >=20 > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank you. >=20 > --=20 > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg = >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg --Apple-Mail=_7B257E01-1629-4ACD-97DE-482F5B512833 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = All, 

We have = our meeting time confirmed now - we are going to squeeze the meeting in = on Tuesday between then end of the last session and the start of the = social:

Saint-Denis room from 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018

Our = proposed agenda is:
* Welcome by = the chairs
* Review of the Proposed charter. = Request for comments and discussion
* Review of the = list of WG with work or interest and topics sent to mailing = list
   * Request for discussion on = proposed work, particularly that outside of the IETF
   * Also requests for people willing to = champion/shepherd along topics 
* Discussion = of future meetings and co-location ideas
* Head to = the social!

but please feel free to suggest other topics. 

Best regards

Sara. 


On 9 Jul 2018, at 12:02, = Allison Mankin <allison.mankin@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, Hannes,

I think if this does = end up on Tuesday, it will end early enough for the social.  A room = hasn't been found yet, so stay tuned.

Allison (for the = IRTF)

On 7 July 2018 at 03:58, Hannes = Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Sara,

 

I noticed your announcement and the content of the = planned work is interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, = which overlaps with the social event.

I wonder = whether this was an oversight.

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg


--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg

= --Apple-Mail=_7B257E01-1629-4ACD-97DE-482F5B512833-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 11:16:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B5C130EA7 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:16:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mGWpmO1EuCSQ for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DE6F130E4C for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:67c:1232:144:4179:5277:3c2a:dfd] (port=53182) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ffUVs-0001FZ-IA for Pearg@irtf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:15:56 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A894C6B4-9F61-42F4-80A9-28A76379887E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:15:49 -0400 References: <33B75743-6A88-419E-9B5E-1D2730EA56AE@sinodun.com> To: "Pearg@irtf.org" In-Reply-To: <33B75743-6A88-419E-9B5E-1D2730EA56AE@sinodun.com> Message-Id: <92E9C88B-AC52-4B59-A5EB-C38A21EEC880@sinodun.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] IETF 102 - PEARG Side meeting: 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018 X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:16:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A894C6B4-9F61-42F4-80A9-28A76379887E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi All,=20 We=E2=80=99ve been asked about remote participation in this meeting and = unfortunately the room doesn=E2=80=99t have Meetecho but does have a = VoIP Polyphone. Apparently there have been some issues with the service = this week so we=E2=80=99ll do our best to get this set up but it might = be a bit flaky. The phone itself can be dialed like a regular phone with in the = U.S./Canada, e.g. no need to dial 9 first or anything like that. If you need to use WebEx, you can use this meeting: PEARG Tuesday, July 17, 2018 6:00 pm | Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00) | 1 hr Meeting Link: = > Meeting number (access code): 648 369 398 Meeting password: ZHYatpvJ Join by phone: 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Regards Sara.=20 > On 14 Jul 2018, at 16:50, Sara Dickinson wrote: >=20 > Hi All,=20 >=20 > We have our meeting time confirmed now - we are going to squeeze the = meeting in on Tuesday between then end of the last session and the start = of the social: >=20 > Saint-Denis room from 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018 >=20 > Our proposed agenda is: > * Welcome by the chairs > * Review of the Proposed charter. Request for comments and discussion > * Review of the list of WG with work or interest and topics sent to = mailing list > * Request for discussion on proposed work, particularly that = outside of the IETF > * Also requests for people willing to champion/shepherd along = topics=20 > * Discussion of future meetings and co-location ideas > * Head to the social! >=20 > but please feel free to suggest other topics.=20 >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Sara.=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 9 Jul 2018, at 12:02, Allison Mankin > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, Hannes, >>=20 >> I think if this does end up on Tuesday, it will end early enough for = the social. A room hasn't been found yet, so stay tuned. >>=20 >> Allison (for the IRTF) >>=20 >> On 7 July 2018 at 03:58, Hannes Tschofenig > wrote: >> Hi Sara, >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I noticed your announcement and the content of the planned work is = interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, which overlaps = with the social event. >>=20 >> I wonder whether this was an oversight. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Ciao >>=20 >> Hannes >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank you. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Pearg mailing list >> Pearg@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg = >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Pearg mailing list >> Pearg@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg >=20 > --=20 > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg --Apple-Mail=_A894C6B4-9F61-42F4-80A9-28A76379887E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = All, 

We=E2=80=99= ve been asked about remote participation in this meeting and = unfortunately the room doesn=E2=80=99t have Meetecho but does have a = VoIP Polyphone. Apparently there have been some issues with the service = this week so we=E2=80=99ll do our best to get this set up but it might = be a bit flaky.

The phone itself can be dialed like a regular phone with in = the U.S./Canada, e.g. no need to dial 9 first or anything like that.

If you need to use WebEx, you can use this = meeting:

PEARG
Tuesday, July = 17, 2018
6:00 pm  |  Eastern Daylight Time (New = York, GMT-04:00)  |  1 hr
Meeting Link: <https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm2907856f6ac383d29d646= c22583e779b>
Meeting number (access code): 648 369 = 398
Meeting password: ZHYatpvJ
Join by = phone: 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)

Regards

Sara. 
On 14 = Jul 2018, at 16:50, Sara Dickinson <sara@sinodun.com> wrote:

Hi All, 

We have our meeting time = confirmed now - we are going to squeeze the meeting in on Tuesday = between then end of the last session and the start of the = social:

Saint-Denis room from 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018

Our = proposed agenda is:
* Welcome by = the chairs
* Review of the Proposed charter. = Request for comments and discussion
* Review of the = list of WG with work or interest and topics sent to mailing = list
   * Request for discussion on = proposed work, particularly that outside of the IETF
   * Also requests for people willing to = champion/shepherd along topics 
* Discussion = of future meetings and co-location ideas
* Head to = the social!

but please feel free to suggest other topics. 

Best regards

Sara. 


On 9 Jul 2018, at 12:02, = Allison Mankin <allison.mankin@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, Hannes,

I think if this does = end up on Tuesday, it will end early enough for the social.  A room = hasn't been found yet, so stay tuned.

Allison (for the = IRTF)

On 7 July 2018 at 03:58, Hannes = Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Sara,

 

I noticed your announcement and the content of the = planned work is interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, = which overlaps with the social event.

I wonder = whether this was an oversight.

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg


--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg

--
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Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg

= --Apple-Mail=_A894C6B4-9F61-42F4-80A9-28A76379887E-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 16:09:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A7D130E7E for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:09:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9U0JQ5dLtrKQ for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0C90130E4D for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id s12-v6so2410188ljj.0 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:09:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qK/mvMwjgyKP4gOKD8pFfaaB6DLTj8YrLzBRjblwsO8=; b=Dt0eRHlHHtc93624p8VYYDtkMFu/7gD402yxO504RCOlljMPSfAUrm9sQ/nu2us5xk KnSTIKXXPoDhPhxZlCK84Xvwz4jl6gx6JHF+7tqxxhlGkUMookmDNwAJQPMjl3n2bruu Wcz0DsNXfnZQ2dGnPB/WUAjyADBif+vAzqFb9NZxBMoLUppkKh+sEixJ8GPcJY7Dmu8e 8kQQnPNfIItZjsmihtNY1QlkActdN6OVmw2avmPYPZlWQH3TXKtun3NZcWemUfLRi5a1 fC7TfU/dhwDZQLb9e13CN6yydWXG5bO8F6JJPUkGah2bLjaND7NA4mycFd1UvEKfBU/1 NAPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qK/mvMwjgyKP4gOKD8pFfaaB6DLTj8YrLzBRjblwsO8=; b=VPXoYFymPRCmBXBTycVS+G8R6eDIIgMlNbtEOnMfzbxmrpU4iv90JFTCu2MCspKBWM /Oob7hARbsyxJG/IbUSAGRSiWa9OAi3YjA0cMtU4aWtypO/1M6ZiYOnrUP7YDULCGeNx p4gnn1wdugQnzmABdIY3vWX6uw2jMmLHsP6Oowl/YndYHptzBvRpKiLoK3bc0OJa7OtY yooyl4JbuJcb7z2i82WnXL0YGV35fQBh3XvMkTmLxfg1tPZEgSI4dWczkepi9qDLGvEm 7uIIZk78R7C7ZC4uRVd23xy6pKlA6VVRY5hUntT91Qd+fNnU+4rB5O3EmX/tdI5HB6vp jV8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGRH8EeL3Ftm3XkdOXdCY/xhwRe2+4Hr07xvmTAjqdyEywc4yQy kPxt/ML08/xf0balhgydhNQQnWjuEcsIrlYdSPkvfB4gIWc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpejCw9BFVFRFQV5ayfDzzylR8oQHPHixiMneQZl96Q1/2Wnry8WY4DPwpUTj7L467Yj+yGD8BssH1s7Rq41xIE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2096:: with SMTP id g22-v6mr2634628lji.37.1531868958581; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:09:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ab3:4091:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:08:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:08:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001e8b1205713a09a9" Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] Privacy preserving data collection X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 23:09:24 -0000 --0000000000001e8b1205713a09a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the technique I was referring to at today's meeting about Google's new technique: https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub46411 I don't know what Google's plans are, but the paper compares Prochlo favorably to RAPPOR " We introduce the Encode, Shuffle, Analyze (ESA) archi- tecture for privacy-preserving software monitoring, and its PROCHLO implementation.1 Th= e ESA architecture is in- formed by our experience building, operating, and maintain- ing the RAPPOR privacy-preserving monitoring system for the Chrome Web browser [28]. Over the last 3 years, RAP- POR has processed up to billions of daily, randomized re- ports in a manner that guarantees local differential privacy, without assumptions about users=E2=80=99 trust;= similar techniques have since gained increased attention [6, 7, 70, 74]. However, these techniques have limited utility, both in theory and in our experience, and their statistical nature makes them ill- suited to standard software engineering practice." -Ekr --0000000000001e8b1205713a09a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's the technique I was referring to at today&= #39;s meeting about Google's new technique:

https://ai.google/re= search/pubs/pub46411

I don't know what Goo= gle's plans are, but the paper compares Prochlo favorably to RAPPOR
" =09 =09 =09 =09

We introduce the Encode, Shuffle, Analyze (ESA) archi= - tecture for privacy-preserving software monitoring, and its PROCHLO implementation.1 The ESA architecture is in- formed by our experience building, operating, and maintain- ing the RAPPOR privacy-preserving monitoring system for the Chrome Web browser [28]. Over the last 3 years, RAP- POR has processed up to billions of daily, randomized re- ports in a manner that guarantees local differential privacy, without assumptions about users=E2=80=99 trust; similar techniques have since gained increased attention [6, 7, 70, 74]. However, these techniques have limited utility, both in theory and in our experience, and their statistical nature makes them ill- suited to standard software engineering practice."


<= /p>

= -Ekr


=09
--0000000000001e8b1205713a09a9-- From nobody Tue Jul 17 16:28:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFC712DD85 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:28:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rOsKLet2f1W for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x234.google.com (mail-yw0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64A59130DDA for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x234.google.com with SMTP id r3-v6so1048975ywc.5 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:28:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Xfy8Krxnp/UXY8IfuVBaWWTz09Ugbkr9YEkbK44lq8U=; b=W6YdELjbxX6pD50sTxwn4M5CRk9DEkfWtZ541YY3OOvwQ1CwduTewe+ZqO0g0u5UVP 6RT2UYJfPrUYGb5Q5izvwHsNA5PeKgjzL2efN1cxsVVGwQmGLFG55lovh8kEsAl4kEsY 1KsWYOgNpDepMJrLSu8rO9KGoX/JihHOBh4XHRx8iRqHDEt/g9w0npmAmY2OKFlxxg17 e1t0+Iy7yPcPXWpvy4jO94pp3ZBH+aorHrX7ugzOt+cLoy1SS9HMo6oMIAgzmqOb7W57 jQziL+OjGE/k+ASrNBJ/5+pPKlQXgCudXNNz+ONkU/G51OFLHXkogFFdZx7TOvN1Mj6I UPjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Xfy8Krxnp/UXY8IfuVBaWWTz09Ugbkr9YEkbK44lq8U=; b=bgak+ebbHy2jIqqdk3lbXUVfjKsTdbzB9QZ8qSDRu8K2l7F9Bd87k6oTObeCYufnhh J5XwiXRIJK7p3u89IaK7W2R1XdfKHjRmXm5eBczBucweA6jgi31lMHshlrFHUKYlArBi QjMhJPtdC1PMjGaNLxt2rQECBpQPYiiaeNyBts0CvLEjUOwIKfWjnEVFDZWUBGgxB72w Roz5OPJuGFE2nBfj/eg91g2MoPOQ5lR6gKe1b8oJ9Oe4HxPTgofX+EH1SvzEcdb9n6+5 uJzVJt837kR2/B6E+e44u7TG9QE6+qHqnyBUV2RoGOI7EjK6MkXvpmtNwFfftLGCCMc9 b3WQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHfPt0HaWmz0mVh6E63XBVtBCUCmhVn1LgrH+b6l7gENSrrDveK 6frFIcBMCsvoVEeXW9eDBXqysFAzX/J32QQdk+jX5A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpctpw0GBtZHuoB94e/H3wy+dtZL9PK7omgvx405OyIKdCDWg4e6PaksgXOvPpjqjl1TTtZgz6EgtJmyXRUMlE4= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:ecd3:: with SMTP id v202-v6mr1894448ywe.311.1531870128181; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:28:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:28:36 -0500 Message-ID: To: pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d5156905713a4e19" Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] My thoughts on PEARG after IETF 102 side meeting X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 23:28:52 -0000 --000000000000d5156905713a4e19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Privacy types, Thanks for including remote participants. I wanted to comment on a couple of things I was thinking about, while listening in. I'm commenting as an individual, but I'm responsible AD for the QUIC working group, so you know (1) this isn't my area of clue, so I could be asking dumb questions, and (2) I care. The meeting mentioned PEARG involvement early in IETF protocol work, rather than at PubReq time or later. That's good. I also wonder if there are specific places in the IETF that could be a priority, because the IETF is a big place, and I wonder if there are protocols that need as much scrutiny as QUIC has been getting, but haven't gotten that scrutiny now, for various reasons. If those could be prioritized, that might be awesome. The meeting mentioned PEARG doing for privacy what CFRG does for crypto. I think I understand what CFRG has to offer to the IETF, both in terms of expertise and outputs (I've balloted on conflict reviews for all their RFCs listed at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=cfrg&sort=&rfcs=on&by=group&group=). I'm having a harder time understanding what PEARG outputs would look like, beyond the reviews mentioned in the proposed charter, but I look forward to finding out. I'd encourage you to do the type of reviews I heard discussed tonight. The meeting mentioned HRPC reviews as one model. I've actually been on the receiving end of one of those (on the MaRNEW IAB workshop report, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/). I found it helpful to me. I'd suggest accepting solicitations to review, so authors expect PEARG reviews (I didn't even know HRPC was doing reviews until I opened my e-mail. It was a pleasant surprise, but it was a surprise). I hope some of my thoughts are helpful. Best wishes in your explorations. And thanks again for moving this forward. Spencer --000000000000d5156905713a4e19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Privacy types,=C2=A0

Thanks for in= cluding remote participants.=C2=A0

I wanted to comment o= n a couple of things I was thinking about, while listening in.=C2=A0 I'= m commenting as an individual, but I'm responsible AD for the QUIC work= ing group, so you know (1) this isn't my area of clue, so I could be as= king dumb questions, and (2) I care.=C2=A0

The meeting m= entioned PEARG involvement early in IETF protocol work, rather than at PubR= eq time or later. That's good. I also wonder if there are specific plac= es in the IETF that could be a priority, because the IETF is a big place, a= nd I wonder if there are protocols that need as much scrutiny as QUIC has b= een getting, but haven't gotten that scrutiny now, for various reasons.= If those could be prioritized, that might be awesome.=C2=A0

=
The meeting mentioned PEARG doing for privacy what CFRG does for= crypto. I think I understand what CFRG has to offer to the IETF, both in t= erms of expertise and outputs (I've balloted on conflict reviews for al= l their RFCs listed at https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=3Dcfrg&sort=3D&rfcs=3Don&by= =3Dgroup&group=3D). I'm having a harder time understanding what= PEARG outputs would look like, beyond the reviews mentioned in the propose= d charter, but I look forward to finding out.=C2=A0

The meeting mentioned HRPC reviews as one model. I've actually been o= n the receiving end of one of those (on the MaRNEW IAB workshop report, https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/). I found it helpful = to me. I'd suggest accepting solicitations to review, so authors expect= PEARG reviews (I didn't even know HRPC was doing reviews until I opene= d my e-mail. It was a pleasant surprise, but it was a surprise).=C2=A0

I hope some of my thoughts are h= elpful.=C2=A0Best wishes in your explorations.=C2=A0

<= /div>
And thanks again for moving this forward.

Spencer
--000000000000d5156905713a4e19-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 14:15:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2F7131057 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:15:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Idzeu9F-alba for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch (dragon.pibit.ch [94.231.81.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CF48130FAB for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDB5171C06E; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 23:15:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dragon.pibit.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fA-LCF72Ds0m; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 23:15:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.16.6.3] (unknown [66.171.165.154]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F520171C057; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 23:15:39 +0200 (CEST) To: pearg@irtf.org From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgcHJvamVjdCk=?= Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Cc: Christian Grothoff Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 23:15:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GdZ8PRWtOBLNt24dE6Oeecl9pajhyHeE3" Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] GNUnet as peer-to-peer framework with very strong privacy focus X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:15:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --GdZ8PRWtOBLNt24dE6Oeecl9pajhyHeE3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="N2dAAYxVyalwJ9EaCDQmnui3ObGB70aY2"; protected-headers="v1" From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgcHJvamVjdCk=?= To: pearg@irtf.org Cc: Christian Grothoff Message-ID: Subject: GNUnet as peer-to-peer framework with very strong privacy focus --N2dAAYxVyalwJ9EaCDQmnui3ObGB70aY2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3FB41ADF8F4065F6068A0C9C" Content-Language: de-CH This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3FB41ADF8F4065F6068A0C9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear PEARG group Thanks for the interesting meeting yesterday, where I was the first time.= Immediately after the meeting I approached Sara & Shivan to tell them that I think GNUnet could be a project to have a close look at, as not just requirements are defined, but you also find lots of running code (> 400k LOC). It's a peer-to-peer framework to "replace the old insecure Internet stack" (in own words, cf. gnunet.org); the GNUnet project has a strong emphasis on protecting privacy at all levels (including link level) and also explores ways to achieve trust without relying on X.509 PKIs. The most comprehensive document about GNUnet and its principles is this habil work: https://grothoff.org/christian/habil.pdf As also DNS / name resolution privacy was a topic yesterday, it's noteworthy to say that Christian (main dev and Prof. at BFH) recently could show us decentralized name resolution working with the GNU Name System (GNS), resolving .FR domains (which were imported into the GNUnet DHT) as this can easily be imported from official sources; this would also apply for the .SE zone. You find an interesting analysis of DNS's issues in terms of privacy, comparing it to, e.g., namecoin and also GNS, here: https://gnunet.org/sites/default/files/ns2018.pdf PS: As pEp Foundation, working on opportunistic encryption for email as of now, we also collaborate with the GNUnet project and also help to finance its developemnt - at some point we want to send messages through this P2P framework deployed through MUAs instead, so that for email SMTP could become a secondary choice as a transport. The corresponding subsystem for that is called CADET - you can also find everything about it in the above mentioned habil. PPS: GNUnet is heavily academically rootet since almost two decades already; cf. here: https://gnunet.org/bibliography These days, emphasis in being put on having it easy installable and thus deployable for different ends ranging from file sharing, messaging, name resolution or also voice. PPPS: Christian and other people of the project might subscribe to this list, too. I put Christian CC for now. --------------3FB41ADF8F4065F6068A0C9C Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFWozlEBEADAIFgjylzzPH7JKRJPbiEGoSsrSaCrbWLdy4sNGD4fS7GsuZ9f o/E9iYzC7WwGhN8rB4jsLv/ZfGVbAsmpypvZdReVs/BPidR8Vo1WMOK3lww1L6j8 7UV7TwUzG72u0zMXCUWMtX3+7kWZVlohXPCzDe7xyLu5tdfPWIAxDrI3h/+a4qAR ySVo8RwzILDwjbLF8at0w52oTRIWcr9CAus8ktRKBhc3MiUsSXHGgZLujUsXKAYg Vmh53uEVsjigeHZh6XPrzQPTnQ/VDcqNSRl4n+fQ2e/sZV7CQttcqb9zfj8P6Lyk jG3pe1AUSm9A0o75bi8PUluPWyH0wdt4D29xabFFyBANyYqKiLyZvnBqGSkqswnW 00QoYtMaEBh7nyuoUCa0bTMCRn8NaXRCnuINx+E2llqJqeQ0sMJ5WSQe4RbkWRsF PJOdiouLyHEZUpyQlMFesu/mN565eZsw3a7u9hxnoFgX0tF0hoONMRSAU1y3aZeb a+DvwXDQcSaHmBARQ2v8qWdql16Zhvf7KFo5Cris9jNknInzs2L6pHVZN8AY2ESO 2UXQJ+Fyy5BEHXS4LzEnWRPLYkAE5eVi+ZDcRMQeO2L3ZenqhcRRcQUAaRObho0L WzE+EE8ZvQxlA5hn/4/lHQLk8ZiEgenl+y/mtL8TeXB1HO4DrqahXvlu2QARAQAB 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rym9MSleGnY for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB19A126BED for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:67c:1232:144:b5ae:faac:ffce:94b9] (port=49653) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fg7xN-0001oc-Sn for Pearg@irtf.org; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:22:58 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C8FB17DA-8663-4D4F-9BA7-1908DEA2B396" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:22:51 -0400 References: <33B75743-6A88-419E-9B5E-1D2730EA56AE@sinodun.com> To: "Pearg@irtf.org" In-Reply-To: <33B75743-6A88-419E-9B5E-1D2730EA56AE@sinodun.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] IETF 102 - PEARG Side meeting: 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018 - NOTES X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 12:23:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C8FB17DA-8663-4D4F-9BA7-1908DEA2B396 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi All,=20 Many thanks to all that attended to meeting this week and for the = feedback on the list since then.=20 The notes from the meeting are below (thanks to Joe for taking them!) = Updates, comments or additional recollections welcome. We=E2=80=99ll work on revising the charter based on all the input and = circulate a new version for review in the near future. Sara * Agenda bashing * Charter discussion * Link: = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pearg/JGuNpoi0IkUPwk6Z08QjXtzTGXA * Niels: under Objectives there is a narrative and then a list * might be good to number things other than assessments (which are = currently the only things numbered) * Shivan: we should emphasize bringing new PETs in the narrative as = well. * Ameila: on Collaborations, there is a small section in Meetings to = collab with PETS * on the examples: the first two are variants of statistical = inference, how about having that and putting specific analysis elements = in there? * DP is a metric, not a system * Would go for something more generic than just MPC * Alison Mankin: I got them to put those examples in there * there is an Apple imp of DP (JLH: and Chrome) * Techniques of that sort could be used to help protect privacy * Perhaps there is a better way to word that. * We want to word this to signpost where the group could go in the = future * Amelia: point out Chrome and Apple usage * Shivan: not meant to define scope but serve as examples of things we = might want to work on * Allison: would like to have more examples of these kinds of things = that could be more useful in IRTF/IETF * Kirsty: sounds like you're looking at the tech side of things and = not legal. * Why do you mention GDPR? * Sara D: Not sure how GDPR is going to be important, but we think = it is. * cross-over between tech and law could come here. * e.g., blockchain can remove RTBF, not great for GDPR * Ameila: Priv Intl did a good walkthrough of privacy laws in 2013 * often run into privacy laws via data minimization. * Wendy: useful to think about the interaction between technical and = larger socio/technical/economic environment * useful area of research to think about why have protocol design = efforts not succeeded as we may have wanted. * Joe: also e-privacy directive will come up * Christine: we should not focus entirely on Europe. * Niels: we can add that privacy is an inherently social, technical, = economic, and legal construct. * Wendy: invite collaboration with w3c and the privacy interest group = there (PING) * in the discussion of meetings potentially being closed, we may = want to say "confidentiality" rather than privacy. * PING meeting Thursday at noon. * Jim Fenton: I'm concerned that a lot of people might think that = privacy is solely encryption or confidentiality * maybe we can borrow a definition of privacy to constrain our = efforts. * Sara: should this limit our work? * We were thinking of working from RFC 6973, Privacy = considerations. * Amelia: in RFC 6973 there is a short section on correlation of = data... what DP tries to do is make a privacy-preserving query to a = database and still make useful inferences from that set. * RFC 6973 may be too narrow as it may not apply to some of the = newer technologies * Sara: we said we'll be informed by that but not be limited by it. = Maybe we can make companion documents related to these. * Niels: we have seen a privacy directorate trying to do reviews with = varying levels of success. * HRPC is doing Human Rights reviews that include privacy. * Hope we can make sure we don't overcommit these resources, and = collaborate/resonate. * EKR: a bit of experience to form review teams focus on one area, = i.e., security area. * coming in at the end and reviewing for a particular issue is not = going to have a lot of impact. * need to engage earlier with the folks during the design of the = protocols. * Shivan: should this be part of the charter? bake in early = contributions. * Wes: seems too narrow to be reactionary enough * e.g., privacy of data at rest, but we haven't explored privacy = during hand off between protocols * We should be coming up with stuff that the IETF is not doing or = not at a place yet. * DKG: privacy has a scope well beyond network protocols * in IETF we have a limited slice that we focus on and do that well * May miss sometimes places that are out of the narrow scope * e.g., DHCP anon requires a ton of other stuff.. MAC address, TLS = state scrubbing * How can we address that without going to far? * Things that are above or below our layers? layer 2 or layer 9 * How can we address that? * Alison: IRTF is not bound to stay within the things that IETF has. * EKR: going in opposite direction: we wish we knew how to do things = but we don't * until a month ago we didn't know how to encrypt SNI but now we = do. * IETF is very target-focused... so things get dropped. * could do it like CFRG, "we don't know how to do this thing but = if you can we can suck it into IETF" * Sara: please continue discussion of the charter on the list. * What are pieces of work that could happen here * JLH: would like to talk about things that are happening in the real = world that have no standardization path * Stephen F: would like to make this more broad than fix the IETF. * we kind of understand security analysis but not privacy analysis * Sara: would some of the work done on privacy analysis of DNS be = useful here. * Allison: A methodology of quantifying DNS privacy. * Allison: can we get on the ground to analyze MLS privacy aspects so = we don't fall into traps other messengers have fallen in. * Wendy: privacy preserving reputation systems would be neat to look = at. * Sara: collaborations Tor, EFF, OTF. * Stephen: communities around things like PETS and SOUPS * JLH: Maybe invite Seda Gurses or others for keynote * Shivan: should we meet at the next IETF or somewhere else? * should we colocate with PETS? * Niels: might depend on the strategy... are we bringing work to = PETS? trying to attract people from PETS? > On 14 Jul 2018, at 16:50, Sara Dickinson wrote: >=20 > Hi All,=20 >=20 > We have our meeting time confirmed now - we are going to squeeze the = meeting in on Tuesday between then end of the last session and the start = of the social: >=20 > Saint-Denis room from 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018 >=20 > Our proposed agenda is: > * Welcome by the chairs > * Review of the Proposed charter. Request for comments and discussion > * Review of the list of WG with work or interest and topics sent to = mailing list > * Request for discussion on proposed work, particularly that = outside of the IETF > * Also requests for people willing to champion/shepherd along = topics=20 > * Discussion of future meetings and co-location ideas > * Head to the social! >=20 > but please feel free to suggest other topics.=20 >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Sara.=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 9 Jul 2018, at 12:02, Allison Mankin > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, Hannes, >>=20 >> I think if this does end up on Tuesday, it will end early enough for = the social. A room hasn't been found yet, so stay tuned. >>=20 >> Allison (for the IRTF) >>=20 >> On 7 July 2018 at 03:58, Hannes Tschofenig > wrote: >> Hi Sara, >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I noticed your announcement and the content of the planned work is = interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, which overlaps = with the social event. >>=20 >> I wonder whether this was an oversight. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Ciao >>=20 >> Hannes >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank you. >>=20 >> --=20 >> Pearg mailing list >> Pearg@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg = >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Pearg mailing list >> Pearg@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg >=20 > --=20 > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg --Apple-Mail=_C8FB17DA-8663-4D4F-9BA7-1908DEA2B396 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = All, 

Many = thanks to all that attended to meeting this week and for the feedback on = the list since then. 

The notes from the meeting are below (thanks to Joe for = taking them!) Updates, comments or additional recollections = welcome.

We=E2=80= =99ll work on revising the charter based on all the input and circulate = a new version for review in the near future.

Sara



* Agenda = bashing

* = Charter discussion
  * Link: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pearg/JGuNpoi0IkUPwk6Z08Q= jXtzTGXA
  * Niels: under Objectives there = is a narrative and then a list
    * = might be good to number things other than assessments (which are = currently the only things numbered)
  * = Shivan: we should emphasize bringing new PETs in the narrative as = well.
  * Ameila: on Collaborations, there is = a small section in Meetings to collab with PETS
    * on the examples: the first two are variants = of statistical inference, how about having that and putting specific = analysis elements in there?
    * DP is a = metric, not a system
    * Would go for = something more generic than just MPC
  * = Alison Mankin: I got them to put those examples in there
    * there is an Apple imp of DP (JLH: and = Chrome)
    * Techniques of that sort = could be used to help protect privacy
    = * Perhaps there is a better way to word that.
  =   * We want to word this to signpost where the group could go in = the future
  * Amelia: point out Chrome and = Apple usage
  * Shivan: not meant to define = scope but serve as examples of things we might want to work on
  * Allison: would like to have more examples of these = kinds of things that could be more useful in IRTF/IETF
  * Kirsty: sounds like you're looking at the tech side = of things and not legal.
    * Why do you = mention GDPR?
    * Sara D: Not sure how = GDPR is going to be important, but we think it is.
      * cross-over between tech and law could = come here.
    * e.g., blockchain can = remove RTBF, not great for GDPR
    * = Ameila: Priv Intl did a good walkthrough of privacy laws in = 2013
      * often run into privacy = laws via data minimization.
    * Wendy: = useful to think about the interaction between technical and larger = socio/technical/economic environment
    =   * useful area of research to think about why have protocol design = efforts not succeeded as we may have wanted.
  =   * Joe: also e-privacy directive will come up
    * Christine: we should not focus entirely on = Europe.
    * Niels: we can add that = privacy is an inherently social, technical, economic, and legal = construct.
  * Wendy: invite collaboration = with w3c and the privacy interest group there (PING)
    * in the discussion of meetings potentially = being closed, we may want to say "confidentiality" rather than = privacy.
    * PING meeting Thursday at = noon.
  * Jim Fenton: I'm concerned that a lot = of people might think that privacy is solely encryption or = confidentiality
    * maybe we can borrow = a definition of privacy to constrain our efforts.
    * Sara: should this limit our work?
      * We were thinking of working from RFC = 6973, Privacy considerations.
    * = Amelia: in RFC 6973 there is a short section on correlation of data... = what DP tries to do is make a privacy-preserving query to a database and = still make useful inferences from that set.
  =     * RFC 6973 may be too narrow as it may not apply to some = of the newer technologies
    * Sara: we = said we'll be informed by that but not be limited by it. Maybe we can = make companion documents related to these.
  * = Niels: we have seen a privacy directorate trying to do reviews with = varying levels of success.
    * HRPC is = doing Human Rights reviews that include privacy.
    * Hope we can make sure we don't overcommit = these resources, and collaborate/resonate.
  * = EKR: a bit of experience to form review teams focus on one area, i.e., = security area.
    * coming in at the end = and reviewing for a particular issue is not going to have a lot of = impact.
    * need to engage earlier with = the folks during the design of the protocols.
  =   * Shivan: should this be part of the charter? bake in early = contributions.
  * Wes: seems too narrow to be = reactionary enough
    * e.g., privacy of = data at rest, but we haven't explored privacy during hand off between = protocols
    * We should be coming up = with stuff that the IETF is not doing or not at a place yet.
  * DKG: privacy has a scope well beyond network = protocols
    * in IETF we have a limited = slice that we focus on and do that well
  =   * May miss sometimes places that are out of the narrow = scope
    * e.g., DHCP anon requires a = ton of other stuff.. MAC address, TLS state scrubbing
    * How can we address that without going to = far?
    * Things that are above or below = our layers? layer 2 or layer 9
    * How = can we address that?
    * Alison: IRTF = is not bound to stay within the things that IETF has.
    * EKR: going in opposite direction: we wish we = knew how to do things but we don't
    =   * until a month ago we didn't know how to encrypt SNI but now we = do.
      * IETF is very = target-focused... so things get dropped.
  =     * could do it like CFRG, "we don't know how to do this = thing but if you can we can suck it into IETF"
 = * Sara: please continue discussion of the charter on the = list.

* What = are pieces of work that could happen here
  * = JLH: would like to talk about things that are happening in the real = world that have no standardization path
  * = Stephen F: would like to make this more broad than fix the = IETF.
    * we kind of understand = security analysis but not privacy analysis
  =   * Sara: would some of the work done on privacy analysis of DNS be = useful here.
      * Allison: A = methodology of quantifying DNS privacy.
  * = Allison: can we get on the ground to analyze MLS privacy aspects so we = don't fall into traps other messengers have fallen in.
  * Wendy: privacy preserving reputation systems would = be neat to look at.
* Sara: collaborations Tor, = EFF, OTF.
  * Stephen: communities around = things like PETS and SOUPS
  * JLH: Maybe = invite Seda Gurses or others for keynote

* Shivan: should we meet at the next = IETF or somewhere else?
  * should we colocate = with PETS?
    * Niels: might depend on = the strategy... are we bringing work to PETS? trying to attract people = from PETS?



On 14 Jul 2018, at 16:50, Sara Dickinson = <sara@sinodun.com> wrote:

Hi All, 

We have our meeting time = confirmed now - we are going to squeeze the meeting in on Tuesday = between then end of the last session and the start of the = social:

Saint-Denis room from 1820-1900 on Tuesday 17th July 2018

Our = proposed agenda is:
* Welcome by = the chairs
* Review of the Proposed charter. = Request for comments and discussion
* Review of the = list of WG with work or interest and topics sent to mailing = list
   * Request for discussion on = proposed work, particularly that outside of the IETF
   * Also requests for people willing to = champion/shepherd along topics 
* Discussion = of future meetings and co-location ideas
* Head to = the social!

but please feel free to suggest other topics. 

Best regards

Sara. 


On 9 Jul 2018, at 12:02, = Allison Mankin <allison.mankin@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, Hannes,

I think if this does = end up on Tuesday, it will end early enough for the social.  A room = hasn't been found yet, so stay tuned.

Allison (for the = IRTF)

On 7 July 2018 at 03:58, Hannes = Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi Sara,

 

I noticed your announcement and the content of the = planned work is interesting. As a meeting date you picked the Tuesday, = which overlaps with the social event.

I wonder = whether this was an oversight.

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

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