From nobody Thu May 16 03:26:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185FE120074 for ; Thu, 16 May 2019 03:26:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uLdtBUL3gJ73 for ; Thu, 16 May 2019 03:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 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<155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="B2NXk7zw7EQEQO43jeOSW0adHYVP9iems" Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 10:26:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --B2NXk7zw7EQEQO43jeOSW0adHYVP9iems Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="gCMADk7Uz7xERp3Dehdg3vgQk3JYYeOl9"; protected-headers="v1" From: Iain Learmonth To: "pearg@irtf.org" Message-ID: <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --gCMADk7Uz7xERp3Dehdg3vgQk3JYYeOl9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 03:25:03 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Iain R. Learmonth , Iain Learmonth A new version of I-D, draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.= txt has been successfully submitted by Iain R. Learmonth and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement Revision: 02 Title: Guidelines for Performing Safe Measurement on the Internet Document date: 2019-05-16 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 7 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-= measurement-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-meas= urement/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measureme= nt-02 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet= -measurement Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-m= easurement-02 Abstract: Researchers from industry and academia will often use Internet measurements as a part of their work. While these measurements can give insight into the functioning and usage of the Internet, they can come at the cost of user privacy. This document describes guidelines for ensuring that such measurements can be carried out safely. Note Comments are solicited and should be addressed to the research group's mailing list at pearg@irtf.org and/or the author(s). The sources for this draft are at: https://github.com/irl/draft-safe-internet-measurement Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --gCMADk7Uz7xERp3Dehdg3vgQk3JYYeOl9-- --B2NXk7zw7EQEQO43jeOSW0adHYVP9iems Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE/ps4MHN0fw3t6AudF4mIfdjVvF0FAlzdOtUACgkQF4mIfdjV vF2MRw/8DE/kZ7hqjaefP8ImD9nGcwA8nO9mo+PSBkVyn4Lw5QavWzgkEYZ/PRfG ORyrc+5FaOp4bisBDS+ErEWbBPN8TwY7q6tuWCd7eKACR+B1vdROjZ5JNfGGiVEJ d6gsJtgWPeWxRmHtl1JVcxGsaZpj2Ssi5WRw56x6Z5PWRatp+OiWXkckx40Dwos9 CYzskVOOFTpRZhwdoQARJ0jn1EISqrJQQfUtqDnRmxu9tUwfB4GC/KLKuF2Zr6ol uFxAIL3qpohffc2kcwGGCI2ks9Gna40wVm0WMcX7wBbv4olqG7RfgDzyQsz2pxlv Ml33zaEmdD+y/RzB2LzQ5nyRy0LSvovxiDrxK5MyPr/CEscZFsqYxgL1blqvXU/I NZzRpKpY0kEOWeOc5vT2bA3BMdL6GveFOMKMGM8Gt5iRnTgCS5cs9MMQwvib5tSc mvyRLGdQPf1wWBl+rLAY42iQ/KxITDYFJsZPlZD4HZXJ1ybJEsb76TF4KTjN2wa6 YUwjYXhcDghRMIDx1OYiGChL7bC71DoAwCVuwS0Eyoic+oc8/XnFZV2dEITabe48 ByNaBbwV0mbVdGOed8g2AA2yULrRMWhcEWkVvwi7Hcq3zb7IGXJryeE+Nh0HXiF2 IMBTQY3Nm4Sn4mDFR6xqvA6j4VvKxh+fonRGcok1jIElgbwBA3I= =Kvqc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --B2NXk7zw7EQEQO43jeOSW0adHYVP9iems-- From nobody Thu May 16 19:23:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CDE12033B for ; Thu, 16 May 2019 19:23:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=salesforce.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eir46Xuh2XUK for ; Thu, 16 May 2019 19:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it1-x136.google.com (mail-it1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F82212032E for ; Thu, 16 May 2019 19:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it1-x136.google.com with SMTP id e184so9610714ite.1 for ; Thu, 16 May 2019 19:23:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salesforce.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nvr8fWybffwSyC5OzUnfzF08IY5E2YFw/z6Cx8nH7jo=; b=ERmQRuWtLLmi5TFpdc9oju2AHTN4b/QODsOLt3k3FAa2v/u7YlYch3cpNfZDvSRZ22 ATDpDAZBY1944AE1iCHbF6/OLu/FekL5RV3rx9JaujElZB7dix4gUyV9OdiRWdm0f66B em2wzZA2hOCKrZcTa6paxYm25L4GNmejbjoiI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nvr8fWybffwSyC5OzUnfzF08IY5E2YFw/z6Cx8nH7jo=; b=KOFr7i26SzEmhVLnrxT0po6cuU1P20SzowKQAK6RCOJ9OVQgWydJ/hzeOP10Nnzg5y USm1MOvumKzxrBnR+mrjx8PVRiUWuOXW5PqKUgov5uS+odUELdWZnkkXre9QfhOHmFZ3 ZKn/42Z+ahCVqhFXziW7WF8EtYPw5nsmc8ucLxg85NJxcFj2Ra0rUfU5IEVepEGUj3E4 Ep1WqCUdwp34LAksV/UBNByVWz6o4CBwdddjVRyVbN2O5817PMp5E22Awrtlx4cpIXDk 2IktzYMBFQzVXf6lTjcPgaXtsU6I/6N0V21KcVje68FFeJJpVeMXwGPd4bqsiWRee5Ix NTUg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXBR+C5xfuAf0RxTAcZ2+SpxoKJdrLAAtWv8trpkx1kuszlwZxv 1mQnPJGWIFSoDKaxXTSWODBf7vXv9v5Nt2nNqNFXzg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx14ntqY8EdIjnXLx7hFwCtM2NbQMH0Ja/pGsvH3Aiim6N+KBupQayTB4/y7T3wZNP+/hGqF1AMYJUQJfjPeRM= X-Received: by 2002:a24:ac58:: with SMTP id m24mr810068iti.65.1558059830630; Thu, 16 May 2019 19:23:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Shivan Sahib Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 19:23:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Cc: pearg@irtf.org, Stan Adams , Nick Feamster Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000be9cab05890c12f5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 02:23:54 -0000 --000000000000be9cab05890c12f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Joe! Chris, you and I have talked about this offline, but just to close that loop, I would personally like to see this draft in PEARG. We can discuss whether we want to keep this a regularly-updated-draft or something else in the RG meeting at IETF 105 (we can do a short presentation, if you're interested). One thing that would be good to see more of in the draft would be technical ways to get around censorship by using privacy-preserving technology. That discussion definitely does not have to be exhaustive! Thanks, Shivan On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:46 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote: > (Bcc'ing SECDISPATCH and SAAG as an FYI; thread on PEARG) > > Hello, apologies for cross-posting. > > At IETF 91 in 2014 we presented some very early work before SAAG that > describes how global censors use protocols to censor data flows (block, > impair, modify, etc.). After some editing in subsequent years based on > superb feedback from SAAG folks (Stephane B., Andrew M., thank you!) we had > tentative AD sponsorship and some thoughts that this was better on the IETF > side of the house rather than in a RG. > > We've started to work on it again* and since the original draft we now > have SECDISPATCH to help "the misfit toys of security" find a home in terms > of IETF process... I very briefly described this work yesterday in > SECDISPATCH and Chris Wood, the new PEARG co-chair, suggested that PEARG > would be a good place for this work since part of what they would like to > do in that RG is document certain privacy-implicating things in the real > world. > > We don't really have a preference where this ends up -- there's even a > case to be made that given the dynamic nature of censorship that this will > necessarily always be a work in progress. We have heard people find it > useful and PEARG seems as good as anywhere, and obviously the process to > get to an RG RFC would help it get better (at least that is my impression!). > > Here is the current version of the draft and the repo we're using to track > issues and version the doc: > > draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hall-censorship-tech-07 > repo: https://github.com/josephlhall/rfc-censorship-tech > > Would love to hear if this is something people think PEARG would like to > work on and we have some ideas about additional documents in a series like > this (e.g., having some real-world descriptive reference on research and > practice in terms of traffic analysis could be really useful for IETF > folks, I suspect.) > > Cheers! --Joe Hall > > (copying two co-authors, Stan from CDT and Nick from Princeton) > > * IASA2 has been a big focus of my own for the last two years. > > -- > Joseph Lorenzo Hall > Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org > ] > 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 > e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key > Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 > > Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The > Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/ > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > --000000000000be9cab05890c12f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Joe!

Chris, you and I have talked ab= out this offline, but just to close that loop, I would personally like to s= ee this draft in PEARG. We can discuss whether we want to keep this a regul= arly-updated-draft or something else in the RG meeting at IETF 105 (we can = do a short presentation, if you're interested).=C2=A0

One thing that would be good to see more of in the draft would be t= echnical ways to get around censorship by using privacy-preserving technolo= gy. That discussion definitely does not have to be exhaustive!
Thanks,
Shivan



On= Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:46 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org> wrote:
(Bcc'ing SECDISPATCH and SAAG as an FYI; thread on PEARG)

Hello, apologies for cross-posting.

<= div>At IETF 91 in 2014 we presented some very early work before SAAG that d= escribes how global censors use protocols to censor data flows (block, impa= ir, modify, etc.). After some editing in subsequent years based on superb f= eedback from SAAG folks (Stephane B., Andrew M., thank you!) we had tentati= ve AD sponsorship and some thoughts that this was better on the IETF side o= f the house rather than in a RG.

We've sta= rted to work on it again* and since the original draft we now have SECDISPA= TCH to help "the misfit toys of security" find a home in terms of= IETF process... I very briefly described this work yesterday in SECDISPATC= H and Chris Wood, the new PEARG co-chair, suggested that PEARG would be a g= ood place for this work since part of what they would like to do in that RG= is document certain privacy-implicating things in the real world.

We don't really have a preference where this ends up -= - there's even a case to be made that given the dynamic nature of censo= rship that this will necessarily always be a work in progress. We have hear= d people find it useful and PEARG seems as good as anywhere, and obviously = the process to get to an RG RFC would help it get better (at least that is = my impression!).

Here is the current version of th= e draft and the repo we're using to track issues and version the doc:


Would love to hea= r if this is something people think PEARG would like to work on and we have= some ideas about additional documents in a series like this (e.g., having = some real-world descriptive reference on research and practice in terms of = traffic analysis could be really useful for IETF folks, I suspect.)

Cheers! --Joe Hall

(copying two = co-authors, Stan from CDT and Nick from Princeton)

=
* IASA2 has been a big focus of my own for the last two years.
--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg
--000000000000be9cab05890c12f5-- From nobody Fri May 17 00:58:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A2A12012B for ; Fri, 17 May 2019 00:58:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BJfUB-tQYUID for ; Fri, 17 May 2019 00:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 052A912010D for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NLyMF4mvur98cqm6Y75SEjah8Nbe9Ex2C" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 07:58:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --NLyMF4mvur98cqm6Y75SEjah8Nbe9Ex2C Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PTEL5rFpJY4Cp3W5PCoBAKND4G1X7KCJp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Shivan Sahib , Joseph Lorenzo Hall Cc: Stan Adams , Nick Feamster , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech References: In-Reply-To: --PTEL5rFpJY4Cp3W5PCoBAKND4G1X7KCJp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3E5695BEF284BE6E100241EC" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3E5695BEF284BE6E100241EC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 17/05/2019 03:23, Shivan Sahib wrote: > Hi Joe! >=20 > Chris, you and I have talked about this offline, but just to close that= > loop, I would personally like to see this draft in PEARG. +1 > We can discuss > whether we want to keep this a regularly-updated-draft or something els= e in > the RG meeting at IETF 105 (we can do a short presentation, if you're > interested). Personally, I'd prefer to see the thing just finished as soon as possible. A presentation for that is no harm, but not really needed IMO. My argument for that is that an RFC on this topic could be informative for protocol designers, whereas the draft hasn't been so far (at least afaik). Telling someone to go read and think about RFCnnnn is more likely to be effective than explaining the status of draft-hall-* I reckon. >=20 > One thing that would be good to see more of in the draft would be techn= ical > ways to get around censorship by using privacy-preserving technology. T= hat > discussion definitely does not have to be exhaustive! -1 to extending the scope. That could be done in other documents, each of which would likely take some time. FWIW, personally, I'd recommend just getting this one to the RFC editor queue, pocketing the progress, and then the RG can move on to new documents documenting other mechanisms for and countering censorship. Cheers, S. >=20 > Thanks, > Shivan >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:46 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote= : >=20 >> (Bcc'ing SECDISPATCH and SAAG as an FYI; thread on PEARG) >> >> Hello, apologies for cross-posting. >> >> At IETF 91 in 2014 we presented some very early work before SAAG that >> describes how global censors use protocols to censor data flows (block= , >> impair, modify, etc.). After some editing in subsequent years based on= >> superb feedback from SAAG folks (Stephane B., Andrew M., thank you!) w= e had >> tentative AD sponsorship and some thoughts that this was better on the= IETF >> side of the house rather than in a RG. >> >> We've started to work on it again* and since the original draft we now= >> have SECDISPATCH to help "the misfit toys of security" find a home in = terms >> of IETF process... I very briefly described this work yesterday in >> SECDISPATCH and Chris Wood, the new PEARG co-chair, suggested that PEA= RG >> would be a good place for this work since part of what they would like= to >> do in that RG is document certain privacy-implicating things in the re= al >> world. >> >> We don't really have a preference where this ends up -- there's even a= >> case to be made that given the dynamic nature of censorship that this = will >> necessarily always be a work in progress. We have heard people find it= >> useful and PEARG seems as good as anywhere, and obviously the process = to >> get to an RG RFC would help it get better (at least that is my impress= ion!). >> >> Here is the current version of the draft and the repo we're using to t= rack >> issues and version the doc: >> >> draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hall-censorship-tech-07 >> repo: https://github.com/josephlhall/rfc-censorship-tech >> >> Would love to hear if this is something people think PEARG would like = to >> work on and we have some ideas about additional documents in a series = like >> this (e.g., having some real-world descriptive reference on research a= nd >> practice in terms of traffic analysis could be really useful for IETF >> folks, I suspect.) >> >> Cheers! --Joe Hall >> >> (copying two co-authors, Stan from CDT and Nick from Princeton) >> >> * IASA2 has been a big focus of my own for the last two years. >> >> -- >> Joseph Lorenzo Hall >> Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt= =2Eorg >> ] >> 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 >> e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key >> Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 >> >> Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The >> Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/ >> -- >> Pearg mailing list >> Pearg@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg >> >=20 >=20 --------------3E5695BEF284BE6E100241EC Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1558087203; bh=SzpKMCB+lIrFoU+aVEu4BK4zi3J8qtCs9/gSsfukK0A=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=uevs2/SrM9tZtN4mhJMHMVw/dREvey8LjqozBW06+kv4fSJNcuaeKPVFqxyiDE27Y Ytbqu0sAAElKdf0DFzpAnfV5xyWnw4t3uFdId6+P3W90FPUF1FtzqxfHVj0v9vuwZ7 F7edWx6qgWjgFR34WU3n+GM30E9+ZxXAeXJxVl81kRGRs/1jk+tgXA3EuJyGVa/jY/ 3bMb+YI4BCfyTt3rcO16WLoShd81FUEMPWgx0gXeGBBNjE95ocLu86caWJnW6eXxX2 AAi9GagIFSHoD7Z3u6biuomTM2yeO5fFgOqryS2C1ww5Sj6BYMPM7akSHuALf2M2Fm G4Vi+6WVkXQCQ== Received: from appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com (appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.222]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 225473C03DB; Fri, 17 May 2019 12:00:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 12:00:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephen Farrell Cc: pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 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WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 10:00:18 -0000 > Il 17 maggio 2019 09:58 Stephen Farrell ha scritto: > > > We can discuss > > whether we want to keep this a regularly-updated-draft or something else in > > the RG meeting at IETF 105 (we can do a short presentation, if you're > > interested). > > Personally, I'd prefer to see the thing just finished as > soon as possible. A presentation for that is no harm, but > not really needed IMO. My argument for that is that an > RFC on this topic could be informative for protocol > designers, whereas the draft hasn't been so far (at least > afaik). Telling someone to go read and think about RFCnnnn > is more likely to be effective than explaining the status > of draft-hall-* I reckon. First of all, thanks for bringing up this document again, as I had read it quickly and even promised the authors some feedback on the DNS section, which however I never did (apologies). Now I had the time to go through it a little more in depth, and I must say I have broader issues with it. First of all, the document assumes that any content control is censorship. By the definition in section 1, even blocking the connection from a bot to its C&C center is censorship. That's way too broad. The basic problem is that many of these techniques are also used for positive reasons, which makes it difficult to determine how to deal with them at the technical level, as any counter-technique that makes them impossible is bound to also disrupt those positive uses, creating problems to their users (see the DoH debate). If this is meant as possible guidance to protocol designers, it should be clear that there are policy impact evaluations to be made when designing anything that affects these points of control in one way or the other, possibly involving non-technical stakeholders in the discussion. There is a whole set of nuances and complex tradeoffs in this field, yet I don't see this in the document - it looks like a simplified, biased view of the problem that considers any content control technique negative in itself. Also, some wording seems to assume that only public authorities are censors. In the description in section 3.1, there are statements like "Application service providers can be pressured, coerced, or legally required to censor specific content or flows of data.", or in section 3.2.3, "In addition to censorship by the state, many governments pressure content providers to censor themselves." But there are also cases in which Internet platforms decide to block stuff on their own, for their own business interests or company views (example: I don't think Facebook is censoring breastfeeding images due to any legal requirement or governmental pressure). In democratic countries, this is the kind of censorship that currently creates more concerns, as any legally mandated censorship comes from the democratic process and usually has at least some degree of scrutiny and transparence, while citizens have no way of controlling or even influencing the policies of a private company operating in another jurisdiction, and these policies are usually very intransparent. This kind of practices do not seem to be considered in section 3 (and by the way, there is one more point of control, client applications, which is not even mentioned). I also find section 3 confusing in itself, since 3.1 is a list of actors and use cases, while the other sections are about technical points where information on content could be found. Perhaps 3.1 should become a section of its own, and there should be a much more nuanced discussion of the problem, before getting into the technicalities of how control can be technically applied. Also I'm not sure about section 6 - the document is supposed to be about technical mechanisms, so what's the meaning of a "non-technical interference" section? But if you want to keep it, then there's lots of stuff missing, starting from, for example, Internet platforms shutting down accounts of people they don't like. A couple of weeks ago, for example, Facebook blocked the account of a European elections candidate that happened to be a descendant of Mussolini. A couple of days ago, Facebook shut down 23 pages in Italy that supported the government parties, for spreading "fake news" that, according to those who were posting them, were not fake at all. I'm not arguing that this was bad behaviour by them, but these are indeed cases of silencing someone for their political views, yet I don't see where this kind of things are covered in this document. So, in the end: IMHO either this is made strictly technical, only describing technologies that can be used to identify and block content without assuming whether such activity is good or bad, and giving up all the non-technical bits and judgements; or it requires broadening the viewpoints and the cases it covers. Ciao, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Fri May 17 14:00:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE62D120046 for ; Fri, 17 May 2019 14:00:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=salesforce.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dllnxzMhAmTQ for ; Fri, 17 May 2019 14:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it1-x12c.google.com (mail-it1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8287F120158 for ; Fri, 17 May 2019 14:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id a190so14079832ite.4 for ; Fri, 17 May 2019 14:00:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salesforce.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=n3OX1Iex/jNzz+kvGFxdUjua6qnRb2X226C3w1r4yoE=; b=LyWhcLdYcniSFRfVEEk8lxayqjI+oMAlfN6x8KHNJzKDeYbTQMkQGOI6er9jhw8Vpv I6VshICzPHxdV7BDvmX/lPI3iAzXBjsJCex+DAAz+TqpXbaZIiclz5Iz15O9V1OoDnkU 2/XRUNaVPFVRJ1bah9jL0Jnu53SvuaBwFAFtA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=n3OX1Iex/jNzz+kvGFxdUjua6qnRb2X226C3w1r4yoE=; b=GSwVtYGHXfSBDi72Bs7amzkuVlS7U4FrPuWwVmQi4ovef8XZHSDkJ2VujKK7/JsrET bUX4gaB3hehXZ408PUVdocvfLA4jwaqRKcvUENdAXV9N/N+zQ8XeyVSDtvzUBVqPEgLn 4AkVyquUAC9va5SP0eybpWYZUYXCCgFqgS/8ZpbjT6sY+WZtKGOtI/nxdVgMRtwY45Vq rfY6RSRMWdFWxFge09Gi0HovkIhyWsW9nUHC/bJCFGfJQy9OY4jppOKl4NEHPVUYfhBU je/pmMab8YSoJMLaxwt9rlNw3fzOoc4uwbBJxvy78v/4o6Dp3Ef7TCQCApn8MIVsX469 SoLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU93AkDbFlSS7v1iAj4WtMSdVF4T8mFDnz5i4pP57efjAPkxF5m O8W0ihfkvqAh7RtWI26XLqcJAa9gnSCYhxgtKlhSJg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxIDIRaNQVh4Gltdb6adR7f2OqEDtUrLR0CzQevREC+bbAFOZmQROp1WdreyrTPwaTp1B5Ncx657nAoxphNs1Q= X-Received: by 2002:a24:ac58:: with SMTP id m24mr4702783iti.65.1558126853484; Fri, 17 May 2019 14:00:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Shivan Sahib Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 14:00:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Joseph Lorenzo Hall , Stan Adams , Nick Feamster , pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009e2bdc05891bad40" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 21:00:57 -0000 --0000000000009e2bdc05891bad40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Stephen, On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:58 AM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > ... > > -1 to extending the scope. That could be done in other > documents, each of which would likely take some time. FWIW, > personally, I'd recommend just getting this one to the > RFC editor queue, pocketing the progress, and then the RG > can move on to new documents documenting other mechanisms > for and countering censorship. > > Cheers, > S. > The suggestion to include censorship-countering techniques came up because of the concern that as the draft stands, it would not fall under PEARG's charter. Happy to hear disagreements about that though. Thanks, Shivan > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:46 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote: > > > >> (Bcc'ing SECDISPATCH and SAAG as an FYI; thread on PEARG) > >> > >> Hello, apologies for cross-posting. > >> > >> At IETF 91 in 2014 we presented some very early work before SAAG that > >> describes how global censors use protocols to censor data flows (block, > >> impair, modify, etc.). After some editing in subsequent years based on > >> superb feedback from SAAG folks (Stephane B., Andrew M., thank you!) we > had > >> tentative AD sponsorship and some thoughts that this was better on the > IETF > >> side of the house rather than in a RG. > >> > >> We've started to work on it again* and since the original draft we now > >> have SECDISPATCH to help "the misfit toys of security" find a home in > terms > >> of IETF process... I very briefly described this work yesterday in > >> SECDISPATCH and Chris Wood, the new PEARG co-chair, suggested that PEARG > >> would be a good place for this work since part of what they would like > to > >> do in that RG is document certain privacy-implicating things in the real > >> world. > >> > >> We don't really have a preference where this ends up -- there's even a > >> case to be made that given the dynamic nature of censorship that this > will > >> necessarily always be a work in progress. We have heard people find it > >> useful and PEARG seems as good as anywhere, and obviously the process to > >> get to an RG RFC would help it get better (at least that is my > impression!). > >> > >> Here is the current version of the draft and the repo we're using to > track > >> issues and version the doc: > >> > >> draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hall-censorship-tech-07 > >> repo: https://github.com/josephlhall/rfc-censorship-tech > >> > >> Would love to hear if this is something people think PEARG would like to > >> work on and we have some ideas about additional documents in a series > like > >> this (e.g., having some real-world descriptive reference on research and > >> practice in terms of traffic analysis could be really useful for IETF > >> folks, I suspect.) > >> > >> Cheers! --Joe Hall > >> > >> (copying two co-authors, Stan from CDT and Nick from Princeton) > >> > >> * IASA2 has been a big focus of my own for the last two years. > >> > >> -- > >> Joseph Lorenzo Hall > >> Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [ > https://www.cdt.org > >> ] > >> 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 > >> e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key > >> Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 > >> > >> Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The > >> Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/ > >> -- > >> Pearg mailing list > >> Pearg@irtf.org > >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > >> > > > > > --0000000000009e2bdc05891bad40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stephen,

On Fri, May 17, 201= 9 at 12:58 AM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

...

-1 to extending the scope. That could be done in other
documents, each of which would likely take some time. FWIW,
personally, I'd recommend just getting this one to the
RFC editor queue, pocketing the progress, and then the RG
can move on to new documents documenting other mechanisms
for and countering censorship.

Cheers,
S.

The suggestion to include censorship= -countering techniques came up because of the concern that as the draft sta= nds, it would not fall under PEARG's charter. Happy to hear disagreemen= ts about that though.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Thanks,
Shivan

>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:46 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org> wrote:
>
>> (Bcc'ing SECDISPATCH and SAAG as an FYI; thread on PEARG)
>>
>> Hello, apologies for cross-posting.
>>
>> At IETF 91 in 2014 we presented some very early work before SAAG t= hat
>> describes how global censors use protocols to censor data flows (b= lock,
>> impair, modify, etc.). After some editing in subsequent years base= d on
>> superb feedback from SAAG folks (Stephane B., Andrew M., thank you= !) we had
>> tentative AD sponsorship and some thoughts that this was better on= the IETF
>> side of the house rather than in a RG.
>>
>> We've started to work on it again* and since the original draf= t we now
>> have SECDISPATCH to help "the misfit toys of security" f= ind a home in terms
>> of IETF process... I very briefly described this work yesterday in=
>> SECDISPATCH and Chris Wood, the new PEARG co-chair, suggested that= PEARG
>> would be a good place for this work since part of what they would = like to
>> do in that RG is document certain privacy-implicating things in th= e real
>> world.
>>
>> We don't really have a preference where this ends up -- there&= #39;s even a
>> case to be made that given the dynamic nature of censorship that t= his will
>> necessarily always be a work in progress. We have heard people fin= d it
>> useful and PEARG seems as good as anywhere, and obviously the proc= ess to
>> get to an RG RFC would help it get better (at least that is my imp= ression!).
>>
>> Here is the current version of the draft and the repo we're us= ing to track
>> issues and version the doc:
>>
>> draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-hall-censorship-tech-07
>> repo: https://github.com/josephlhall/rfc-= censorship-tech
>>
>> Would love to hear if this is something people think PEARG would l= ike to
>> work on and we have some ideas about additional documents in a ser= ies like
>> this (e.g., having some real-world descriptive reference on resear= ch and
>> practice in terms of traffic analysis could be really useful for I= ETF
>> folks, I suspect.)
>>
>> Cheers! --Joe Hall
>>
>> (copying two co-authors, Stan from CDT and Nick from Princeton) >>
>> * IASA2 has been a big focus of my own for the last two years.
>>
>> --
>> Joseph Lorenzo Hall
>> Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.c= dt.org
>> ]
>> 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
>> e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
>> Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10=C2=A0 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A8= 71
>>
>> Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The<= br> >> Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/ >> --
>> Pearg mailing list
>> Pearg@irtf.org=
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg<= br> >>
>
>
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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8YonVKwNYFQHE8pPaDKkRUtSD8WHyzgY0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 22:37:03 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --8YonVKwNYFQHE8pPaDKkRUtSD8WHyzgY0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="V7HcpWTzCv8IWr8AJCUdntNsjQel5mlhl"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Shivan Sahib Cc: Joseph Lorenzo Hall , Stan Adams , Nick Feamster , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech References: In-Reply-To: --V7HcpWTzCv8IWr8AJCUdntNsjQel5mlhl Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A6E7256DB0C9E82C880AA65B" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A6E7256DB0C9E82C880AA65B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 17/05/2019 22:00, Shivan Sahib wrote: > Hi Stephen, >=20 > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:58 AM Stephen Farrell > wrote: >=20 >> >> ... >> >> -1 to extending the scope. That could be done in other >> documents, each of which would likely take some time. FWIW, >> personally, I'd recommend just getting this one to the >> RFC editor queue, pocketing the progress, and then the RG >> can move on to new documents documenting other mechanisms >> for and countering censorship. >> >> Cheers, >> S. >> >=20 > The suggestion to include censorship-countering techniques came up beca= use > of the concern that as the draft stands, it would not fall under PEARG'= s > charter. Happy to hear disagreements about that though. Sure. Up to you as chairs to decide of course, but ISTM that this falls squarely into "Understanding attacks on privacy", (this helping understanding), "Document research on new and existing privacy assessment methodologies" (this documenting research) and I'd consider at least some kinds of censorship as a form of societal attack. So, FWIW, I'd argue it's absolutely in scope of the charter. And I don't think every RG work item needs to be proposing some new mechanism. Cheers, S. >=20 > Thanks, > Shivan >=20 >=20 >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:46 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall wro= te: >>> >>>> (Bcc'ing SECDISPATCH and SAAG as an FYI; thread on PEARG) >>>> >>>> Hello, apologies for cross-posting. >>>> >>>> At IETF 91 in 2014 we presented some very early work before SAAG tha= t >>>> describes how global censors use protocols to censor data flows (blo= ck, >>>> impair, modify, etc.). After some editing in subsequent years based = on >>>> superb feedback from SAAG folks (Stephane B., Andrew M., thank you!)= we >> had >>>> tentative AD sponsorship and some thoughts that this was better on t= he >> IETF >>>> side of the house rather than in a RG. >>>> >>>> We've started to work on it again* and since the original draft we n= ow >>>> have SECDISPATCH to help "the misfit toys of security" find a home i= n >> terms >>>> of IETF process... I very briefly described this work yesterday in >>>> SECDISPATCH and Chris Wood, the new PEARG co-chair, suggested that P= EARG >>>> would be a good place for this work since part of what they would li= ke >> to >>>> do in that RG is document certain privacy-implicating things in the = real >>>> world. >>>> >>>> We don't really have a preference where this ends up -- there's even= a >>>> case to be made that given the dynamic nature of censorship that thi= s >> will >>>> necessarily always be a work in progress. We have heard people find = it >>>> useful and PEARG seems as good as anywhere, and obviously the proces= s to >>>> get to an RG RFC would help it get better (at least that is my >> impression!). >>>> >>>> Here is the current version of the draft and the repo we're using to= >> track >>>> issues and version the doc: >>>> >>>> draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hall-censorship-tech-07 >>>> repo: https://github.com/josephlhall/rfc-censorship-tech >>>> >>>> Would love to hear if this is something people think PEARG would lik= e to >>>> work on and we have some ideas about additional documents in a serie= s >> like >>>> this (e.g., having some real-world descriptive reference on research= and >>>> practice in terms of traffic analysis could be really useful for IET= F >>>> folks, I suspect.) >>>> >>>> Cheers! --Joe Hall >>>> >>>> (copying two co-authors, Stan from CDT and Nick from Princeton) >>>> >>>> * IASA2 has been a big focus of my own for the last two years. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Joseph Lorenzo Hall >>>> Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [ >> https://www.cdt.org >>>> ] >>>> 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 >>>> e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key= >>>> Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 >>>> >>>> Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The >>>> Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/ >>>> -- >>>> Pearg mailing list >>>> Pearg@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg >>>> >>> >>> >> >=20 --------------A6E7256DB0C9E82C880AA65B Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cis-india.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UWK3nbZNfKwp; Fri, 17 May 2019 23:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30EA01200F4; Fri, 17 May 2019 23:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hRsbM-0003w6-4B; Sat, 18 May 2019 08:14:18 +0200 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cis-india.org 9F0D3580B7B59 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cis-india.org; s=6F901CFA-19A8-11E9-98F1-CB07954443DB; t=1558159965; bh=2IPlNEIwF4GXLDOWhxeVD0AdiZBqCxA6qiejB0TSeyw=; h=From:To:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version; b=og2pOYTl01NpTYeVNf9vVZ3Ny0IWPQ602yi2TkzMRb485WFXAVfrZJIB6eVGM8pNB 1e7q3f0770Nwqvww4jXNGosz2rdkEnuZZAE6pDvG+jlAEuE9tTtWEa9v0ep2RBOleN 0qNQ1zc7zPh783tuxN+rX0KfDOSoPSyn7+V1p5saLQMPAaL5pR90x34BnUUs0E/gNf xfFvqLpc/hPugP3Zu/PD4JQeLlg/w3FgPmGKO/HXyggTn115kDE6MQOphlJ7S65ei3 BX9XEPyTpilcwZ0Djwm4YSj3cWz+TAeF5AQZFJvggiUBQE6JpJ4IkKY5H/T37S14QA OyPMI7zBAqfwA== From: Gurshabad Grover To: Shivan Sahib , Stephen Farrell Cc: Stan Adams , Nick Feamster , pearg@irtf.org, Joseph Lorenzo Hall , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=gurshabad@cis-india.org; keydata= mQINBFriroIBEADfyDpCD8eborMUMXKtZzjo4t2KzrAlUVYgE/TFtrwUP+4Xw4dzakDIzST8 sVYmlXIWhM5NBBTZSQ190vsxrkbi0xxLcXYM2olZEtqkJ8zONZeZLBeGvcfMymtHqD4jHwYb 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2019 11:43:34 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 919fae14bc17c74543a025539baad412 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech: move to hrpc? X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 06:14:25 -0000 [+hrpc] On 18/05/19 2:30 AM, Shivan Sahib wrote: >=20 > The suggestion to include censorship-countering techniques came up > because of the concern that as the draft stands, it would not fall unde= r > PEARG's charter. Happy to hear disagreements about that though.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 >=20 I was going to suggest that this document be taken to hrpc since it squarely falls under 2/3 charter goals [0] of that rg. A quick search seems to suggest that this draft was not taken up as an hrpc rg document only because it was hoped at the time that the draft will become an AD-sponsored IETF draft. [1] If that is not happening (hope I'm not missing some more context), I think this draft is more suitable for the hrpc rg. -GG. [0] "To expose the relation between protocols and human rights [...]"; and "[t]o increase the awareness [...] on the importance of the technical workings of the Internet and its impact on human rights." [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hrpc/pon2lsx1UFjMQCtZpmLUarEZq4= Q From nobody Sat May 18 18:38:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C90120077 for ; Sat, 18 May 2019 18:38:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PE_K-jt3Dzu3 for ; Sat, 18 May 2019 18:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76ACB1200B5 for ; Sat, 18 May 2019 18:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hSAlt-0004qe-Dh for pearg@irtf.org; Sun, 19 May 2019 03:38:23 +0200 To: pearg@irtf.org References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABtEFBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIChUZWNobmljYWwgY29uc3VsdGFudCkgPGFtZWxpYUBhcnRpY2xlMTkub3Jn PokCVAQTAQgAPhYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJZbJ97AhsjBQkJZgGABQsJCAcC BhUICQoLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEP7xwpS06AtVgrcQAJYg+mhDhui+9xNb9PuRJbelOI7J WlCjSycfaMi+rTJ9FjVKYIE9aug2VV486BZaeqMoOh5wjl61oeRTDHYG6HvhK4w8O/BVPsL0 8MEfYfpFevZmBsInEJypg0r7VJ/SeO9UyaFKUffgvLyiYwk7zJIgx5dHF5Vch0kTtRNc/Wbe 9MGfhl//1Ztl8GjGqzra7MwzaO12ctTDo7LIvXGqrpYm5g7+hRv3+KYVOJvlh4T4deAzNlX1 F/jj4cOYvJJxP2OMPZxoleQZSf63h0hWnKlQWX3UiUZY/M296V6niGDCQHX1q7oz9YWxwUun mNPltaPnTdvE51N98Q+hhrw39XowN0vYhfphaFNrf/crNKTB5Iqx62aAzYwqXQKlh6EtWAri 2rVB9vXxPv+1eL9t/Kga2JyCjmJVtYJxlZWceyW3EKjK+E7qjr1LHDFjV8ZbvN7QRTdjsuzR Ggz3ECba80Ij2/tASE8IXpT/Zb68NeSx3/nDXkIG13inSvGy8yNovzEADXsGO16GSx5Rool/ ECFhTYksMyM73FkvcpvXo6J+neyGEVKDx1Oy213KgTrAOrA+p2hMI2nX9sI5tvWms8XspwQ5 wtmzDribnZNQzpdrb45Chv56LjrKVer9tmraRq8Qe3mL6jXhMPWLim1OeAx6m3qBzKr3QxuG PdADCLHsuQINBFjWlnsBEADFjusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67T M7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrH NUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoccLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+C yYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/ckPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2d Rl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxrFF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8y Bdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq//QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L9 1vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBCiTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVO PASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUO xiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI/CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+ j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtqqH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABiQI8BBgB CAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv/vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1Xn Rw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vI AJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YREErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtk sn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcP YmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBwhekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAn EV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrfM+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmws Pt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOA UWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxWax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB /ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8f Lk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavdPrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8R Eiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3WY5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 03:37:50 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a37d78a1f62179d0f8bbb55570e85dc4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 01:38:30 -0000 Hey Joe, Some additional feedback: - Change the words "blacklisting" and "whitelisting" to "blocklisting" and "allowlisting" as suggested in draft-knodel-terminology-00. - EU countries are being let off a bit easily in the examples section. DNS blocking is really common[1][2][3][4][7] (for section 4.1.1) - EU ISPs default on DNS blocking when they are faced with legal obligations to restrict access to content for whatever reason. On DPI (section 3.2.4), there are other resources[5] (which include the nuance Vittorio seeks below). But of course, our friends at epicenter.works have compiled a comprehensive list of various blocking schemes that are commercially motivated in the EU at this time[6]. They fall under various headings in draft-hall-censorship-tech section 3 and 4. Like Vittorio, I have some difficulty seeing what sections 5, 6.1 and 6.4 bring to the discussion. Section 6.2 and 6.3 could have value since there are or could be technical work-arounds for the cases where there is no clear legal support for action (e.g., consider a contractual, voluntary action by a root name server to delist or re-assign some name, which could be monitored, perhaps in some way similar to Certificate Transparency). Section 6.3 situations would be mitigated by cloud-servers or CDNs, but not an IETF job perhaps. On section 6.2, there is case-law from a number of EU member states on domain seizures, and in a link below you'll see an EFF and Public Knowledge mapping of B2B domain seizures in the US. I can add some reflections on Vittorio's remarks (mostly for Vittorio's benefit, but see EFF-link below all): On 2019-05-17 12:00, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > First of all, the document assumes that any content control is > censorship. By the definition in section 1, even blocking the > connection from a bot to its C&C center is censorship. That's way too > broad. > The basic problem is that many of these techniques are also used for po= sitive reasons, which makes it difficult to determine how to deal with th= em at the technical level, as any counter-technique that makes them impos= sible is bound to also disrupt those positive uses, creating problems to = their users (see the DoH debate).=20 While I disagree this necessarily applies to DoH, I am aware that positive uses of disrupting communications (blocking port 25 for private consumers to inhibit spam, for instance, in section 3.3.1 of the draft) is what generally has limited regulatory action targetting the /technical means of disrupting communications/.=C2=A0 > But there are also cases in which Internet platforms decide to block st= uff on their own, for their own business interests or company views (exam= ple: I don't think Facebook is censoring breastfeeding images due to any = legal requirement or governmental pressure). Yes, and no. James Boyle wrote an essay in 1997 titled "Foucault in Cyberspace" which argues that COPPA incentivises exactly the censoring of breastfeeding images. For an illustrative example, read the Wikipedia article on Janet Jackson's nipple-slip during SuperBowl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controvers= y#Aftermath_and_effects There are also issues with B2B contracts: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/07/how-threats-against-domain-names-us= ed-censor-content I think this could be clarified in section 1 of draft-censorship by adding the word "contractual": "(Although censors that engage in censorship must do so through legal, CONTRACTUAL, military, or other mean= s," > A couple of weeks ago, for example, Facebook blocked the account of a E= uropean elections candidate that happened to be a descendant of Mussolini= =2E A couple of days ago, Facebook shut down 23 pages in Italy that suppo= rted the government parties, for spreading "fake news" that, according to= those who were posting them, were not fake at all. I'm not arguing that = this was bad behaviour by them, but these are indeed cases of silencing s= omeone for their political views, yet I don't see where this kind of thin= gs are covered in this document. To be fair, Facebook faces fines in the order of tens of millions of euros if they fail to block something they should have blocked. Over-blocking has indeed been a persistent concern among those groups who have argued that blocking is not a good solution to any particular content moderation problem. References: [1] Council of Europe, 2014: p. 72 ff, The rule of law on the Internet and in the wider digital world, https://rm.coe.int/16806da51c [2] European Commission (contractors), 2019: p. 31 ff, Evaluation of regulatory tools for enforcing online gambling rules and channelling demand towards controlled offers, https://ec.europa.eu/growth/content/evaluation-regulatory-tools-enforcing= -online-gambling-rules-and-channelling-demand-towards-1_en [3] EDRi, 2011: p. 22 ff, The slide from self-regulation to corporate censorship, https://edri.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/selfregualation_paper_2011092= 5_web.pdf [4] EDRi, 2010: all the pages, Booklet On Internet Blocking. https://edri.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/blocking_booklet.pdf [5] BEREC and European Commission, 2012: A view of traffic management and other practices resulting in restrictions to the open Internet in Europe http://berec.europa.eu/eng/document_register/subject_matter/berec/downloa= d/0/45-berec-findings-on-traffic-management-pra_0.pdf [6] epicenter.works, 2019: p. 36 ff, Report: The Net Neutrality Situation in the EU, https://epicenter.works/document/1522 [7] From ARTICLE19's CATNIP, forthcoming: "France blocked Copwatch, a website reporting on police violence, in 2011, https://www.laquadrature.net/fr/censure-politique-et-judiciaire-de-copwat= ch " --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme Chair, RCM TIG, IEEE 802.11 ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Mon May 20 02:10:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEAA120041 for ; 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Mon, 20 May 2019 11:10:28 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1558343428; bh=NcblLdm8UAU2t0AsMoGIJIC7z/tQwxRn3wbmXC88sZM=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=1B3CY9VPtV69m7LbsK0Adqn/nasEneySdozgh8mtM6Wsu5SRJkMUqRtRa62Qzhgt5 YT1tp7kzz4tEtDEas0Nkm6Stq56KhbZbIjdvIG38leoUTNo6qUgBZYOaJmcsbI7K12 uRLRo0zycxVm8nUGxNgk5Ng01vd//EMOyVibS8PdF9i/nntAbYFle+ZAd775J6vTf6 aCH/2xRqHvToacsFYJ+NIhLv6Q0guFpJdyd+3rryvnHwHsLTamj6Am0KNPHhYvFSKo HF7XNrZi1BAlZjiYHI2/307yDC9E3Si3vb7miQY1enJ+pQbVaeRQvjjO0imG4LQOT1 cOO9uLyDMuL0g== Received: from appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com (appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.222]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9AE8D3C006C; Mon, 20 May 2019 11:10:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 11:10:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Amelia Andersdotter , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 09:10:35 -0000 > Il 19 maggio 2019 03:37 Amelia Andersdotter ha scritto: > > To be fair, Facebook faces fines in the order of tens of millions of > euros if they fail to block something they should have blocked. > Over-blocking has indeed been a persistent concern among those groups > who have argued that blocking is not a good solution to any particular > content moderation problem. It's true that, in the end, most independent blocking decisions by private companies derive from the fear of legal trouble, which by definition derives from a law and thus from a political/governmental decision. So I see why you could argue that most private censorship still indirectly derives from governmental pressure (the other big case I see is that of pro-intellectual-property upload filters, which until a couple of months ago were not legally mandated, but were privately adopted to avoid potential litigation with copyright owners; but one could say that this was still a consequence of a legal framework biased in favour of protecting commercial IP rights). There are however a few cases in which it's quite hard to establish this connection; think for example of the Google Shopping case[1], which IMHO is indeed a form of private censorship. This does not derive from indirect legal pressure - on the contrary, it was ruled as illegal - but only comes as a consequence of private business interests. In the end, I am really afraid of a future in which more and more censoring power is in the hands of private companies, so I would like the draft to cover that as well. Ciao, [1] https://www.beuc.eu/blog/how-google-is-eroding-consumers-freedom-to-choose/ -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon May 20 03:08:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED28120041 for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 03:08:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ksr51CiMPo75 for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 03:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it1-x136.google.com (mail-it1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B689120086 for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 03:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it1-x136.google.com with SMTP id i63so22169727ita.3 for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 03:08:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZnERrL/DeO7Ect5qvGZgE8bijohHyYRvs2+u6UqOgNM=; b=FAra9WpBV/Eiaiq9IHfoEbBiiGyRteb731SN0Tlt56bB4HLrsMjpMHMAfi6qKzuVwF ucO4lNSl8QxZR7gR3w71ISqibXbuE9+MJPQqb9Ehofvktc+flVSvBrOlODCUHzFF7z+6 D7UJ8/4wX99gcQJ7AWox+PrZ9cUxOfzwgdazY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZnERrL/DeO7Ect5qvGZgE8bijohHyYRvs2+u6UqOgNM=; b=FMR658hYeiCmQDnYav6Ze+hVdzRr9kLApwEG7F8bSmscjvb1dU0XKfcvZAnkW+xEj4 alSdC8LbSEoUCUDSsmfNSXXvPE1Sfz793qUC5Fxo5ixAFKEwjxjHIVyuoVFacZWYhopB eD3XOgGPOtUiNx+Od2MvWhdsQR88862M4MyAZoaAn1++L6KkhciyeZB7alW034ac1B15 UxnLqSEl2OEGX768RNewLwl9sw8aMh12hB0KERlUl0YyNPHfTxu1ZQ1jQHGt9DmQtqnj hdkpsfHSuTs0Xr9N1PtjQ6hOVyMcdqzQrgzpUCUTlE0uJEvaxIrj4ZDVc6Dyf2RcqEZk 7C8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXCv5In1XIvdx7KytF/b4b8SJHXJiT3nyK9EqzA7+fdGTNH2t63 gZ1jaMHzCzaYFZS1kHjJn13Bw/Dhj5bgIP81/kdccQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJECDJvVQtanoxiHHoFd+Uwxbr2UOOziNSgmaRQDrelDEvbIv/rOKUCdwloNe9i27z8QdBmzz+FjHLD97dYrw= X-Received: by 2002:a24:d945:: with SMTP id p66mr2954258itg.38.1558346898274; Mon, 20 May 2019 03:08:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 06:08:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Amelia Andersdotter , pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f10ba05894ee9e8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:08:22 -0000 --0000000000004f10ba05894ee9e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" (A quick note that I haven't been able to keep up with this conversation as I've been preparing to testify in the USA today on another part of my work unrelated to this (election security). I'll be able to jump back into the conversation tomorrow; thank you all for your patience!) On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 05:10 Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > > Il 19 maggio 2019 03:37 Amelia Andersdotter ha > scritto: > > > > To be fair, Facebook faces fines in the order of tens of millions of > > euros if they fail to block something they should have blocked. > > Over-blocking has indeed been a persistent concern among those groups > > who have argued that blocking is not a good solution to any particular > > content moderation problem. > > It's true that, in the end, most independent blocking decisions by private > companies derive from the fear of legal trouble, which by definition > derives from a law and thus from a political/governmental decision. So I > see why you could argue that most private censorship still indirectly > derives from governmental pressure (the other big case I see is that of > pro-intellectual-property upload filters, which until a couple of months > ago were not legally mandated, but were privately adopted to avoid > potential litigation with copyright owners; but one could say that this was > still a consequence of a legal framework biased in favour of protecting > commercial IP rights). > > There are however a few cases in which it's quite hard to establish this > connection; think for example of the Google Shopping case[1], which IMHO is > indeed a form of private censorship. This does not derive from indirect > legal pressure - on the contrary, it was ruled as illegal - but only comes > as a consequence of private business interests. > > In the end, I am really afraid of a future in which more and more > censoring power is in the hands of private companies, so I would like the > draft to cover that as well. > > Ciao, > > > [1] > https://www.beuc.eu/blog/how-google-is-eroding-consumers-freedom-to-choose/ > -- > > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy > > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > -- Joseph Lorenzo Hall Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org] 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 --0000000000004f10ba05894ee9e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(A quick note that I haven't been able to keep u= p with this conversation as I've been preparing to testify in the USA t= oday on another part of my work unrelated to this (election security). I= 9;ll be able to jump back into the conversation tomorrow; thank you all for= your patience!)

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 05:10 Vittorio Bertola &= lt;vittorio.bertola=3D= 40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


> Il 19 maggio 2019 03:37 Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> ha scritto= :
>
> To be fair, Facebook faces fines in the order of tens of millions of > euros if they fail to block something they should have blocked.
> Over-blocking has indeed been a persistent concern among those groups<= br> > who have argued that blocking is not a good solution to any particular=
> content moderation problem.

It's true that, in the end, most independent blocking decisions by priv= ate companies derive from the fear of legal trouble, which by definition de= rives from a law and thus from a political/governmental decision. So I see = why you could argue that most private censorship still indirectly derives f= rom governmental pressure (the other big case I see is that of pro-intellec= tual-property upload filters, which until a couple of months ago were not l= egally mandated, but were privately adopted to avoid potential litigation w= ith copyright owners; but one could say that this was still a consequence o= f a legal framework biased in favour of protecting commercial IP rights).
There are however a few cases in which it's quite hard to establish thi= s connection; think for example of the Google Shopping case[1], which IMHO = is indeed a form of private censorship. This does not derive from indirect = legal pressure - on the contrary, it was ruled as illegal - but only comes = as a consequence of private business interests.

In the end, I am really afraid of a future in which more and more censoring= power is in the hands of private companies, so I would like the draft to c= over that as well.

Ciao,


[1] https://www.beuc.eu/b= log/how-google-is-eroding-consumers-freedom-to-choose/
--

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vitt= orio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy

--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg
--
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologis= t, Center for Democracy & Technology [h= ttps://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: = https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10=C2=A0 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871<= /div> --0000000000004f10ba05894ee9e8-- From nobody Mon May 20 03:26:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD78412018F for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 03:26:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y5IDgOIS0LUv for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 03:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8573312019B for ; Mon, 20 May 2019 03:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hSfUE-0008Ia-7Q for pearg@irtf.org; Mon, 20 May 2019 12:26:12 +0200 To: pearg@irtf.org References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAG0Jk1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+iQFWBBMBCABAAhsD BwsJCAcDAgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1h mgUJEepHrwAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgH3DCAC1sjJmg4+/VcESEzNkiF3KHEDCAssEaQl2FWfuXVvJ /mPliFtjpVv6EhdgUG5lbOcu12TCUWg42wHkE2kbDWXLE3f7HL+Nq0pEPVdMRXLxEfaOs2oR KGx8lh4k1UgYEpnARI486TklOAONKWdJKstEPrtt9LtysnjvhZvYCTzLKJC98c5wUvC46QYy +NdK6GB+uyVzW5kP2uUUBYxiCyHivGBbv77jcJAFVAk96ut1GFpeCCZM2WyYzer95b9n9a1B UGdJgEEVVbbBIQw7yMbMPqEwa8rpfig7QG72GieYItQjllHXGbOECiBcOHrGtrFWsHWxOxJV bZSoVq6sn1UUuQENBEx0TWcBCADiak/YuMW4BbaWL0U9sNg4zO3Qy1OFeye8fJjR8O/wWVSq cqA+sxjzRUee2fHCp6kVLedy6dVfiKmr59p21r4selOdslKaWmEGtz2oYnGpyPB/jKjfleE5 cIkXCdqgDAhfbfuVdF7heHpfhUy4m3yOJl2+CluT/CG9AfaCtyrwqMJzLWK4vmkGXxnBgb92 mGK0WFB2oRydz+SsiobgpCAqJSLcr8ZHQ54SbD9yxxYPv8IsSjt4eJoZCFI7INBsz4i7aj/q 4xcxQ+xiUwyqCZUvrzMxpw7c8TXuPHStDyhnsKkFjxhlY5avNeu0VPwk72C64I+y93gpPrL3 vL0tEmU9ABEBAAGJATwEGAECACYCGwwWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1hmgUJ EepHswAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgEDZCACcTamfNdBACpPHsmsJL1hbWertwYZg7h2rZtgmZQ9C2PMT OgkPPSsfi+xZ6PaXlvm2RI/TX51LbJsCJ9Fd2/WxKdtC0s6o7+0Cl3P57AORf3BRfl3zfXuy VhzjLvM9WhDiQM6JBqDuYxiYnjO56l+gozEuBAtUJaPIxGyggyS5eT8kKv8Szpc4g7/skZXq ccVOHj05KCOaFQ774rsIzcwppqJqGjh9X6nX6m2DONuBIYNXjH9U6FxHSJ6gRRxZkiz2/dDZ YqsHYlkKigH82r9gORhIGZkCd7xnRhyLOHnjjeKtIy5pvGwxUohy+y5l8i1155JEPNB7pphY xFxjMOQU Message-ID: <58b015ab-4003-49b5-a46a-2fc0e9633ccf@article19.org> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 13:25:39 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 4b95630a2805109a2fafe329e7ec4fd6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:26:21 -0000 Hi, On 20/05/2019 12:10, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 19 maggio 2019 03:37 Amelia Andersdotter >> ha scritto: >> >> To be fair, Facebook faces fines in the order of tens of millions >> of euros if they fail to block something they should have blocked. >> Over-blocking has indeed been a persistent concern among those >> groups who have argued that blocking is not a good solution to any >> particular content moderation problem. > > It's true that, in the end, most independent blocking decisions by > private companies derive from the fear of legal trouble, which by > definition derives from a law and thus from a political/governmental > decision. So I see why you could argue that most private censorship > still indirectly derives from governmental pressure (the other big > case I see is that of pro-intellectual-property upload filters, which > until a couple of months ago were not legally mandated, but were > privately adopted to avoid potential litigation with copyright > owners; but one could say that this was still a consequence of a > legal framework biased in favour of protecting commercial IP > rights). I think that for the purposes of this draft it's useful to keep only the text that is related to policy decisions enacted technically. Because: > There are however a few cases in which it's quite hard to establish > this connection; think for example of the Google Shopping case[1], > which IMHO is indeed a form of private censorship. This does not > derive from indirect legal pressure - on the contrary, it was ruled > as illegal - but only comes as a consequence of private business > interests. I can imagine a lot of cases in which platforms remove content that is benign but irrelevant. If I run a social media network that is about parenting, I'm probably going to have a code of conduct or terms of service that gives me the right to remove content that is extraneous to this topic. Spam, too. I think that we sometimes forget that some platforms are contextually specific. But that usually these are defined by community standards. -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Tue May 21 03:23:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F7812012F for ; Tue, 21 May 2019 03:23:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sinodun.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ltUoXzunaEqi for ; Tue, 21 May 2019 03:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 295F4120108 for ; Tue, 21 May 2019 03:23:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sinodun.com ; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=0rA1by76UOiqJwqG6e8s13f+VmpoYOXoRoFfnvegoKk=; b=oP1USVFN6L2sWFqy0wHyc6gVtH VOJghZW+o07gC5wzChRR34NfGCaUQC4o88G92E781DndSUba2+teTraGOsy8kuvAbd28+9DW+YWbK EqcOECvWyYVkfxASkcCoEdlJ02Vwdw25S63VWDlqIVyvPxaR6xm4aCJkr8T/kF+1M3UUKerbdkJTO GIi2nq6RZlsYa77p359iNVPM2OXBBFEpC/QE4dSaZlt+IgnDVd7lEHKDgmzpyRtFAuoMKGOOp5jJ4 daZ7cgu7ShEI7NVk/2f5T+ud+CqrGGoOZP3v3M34ixu11TG2jxpphxfho8+6mowkDgCz+5vl5i/SB qt7GQuoA==; Received: from [2001:b98:204:102:fffa::41e7] (port=60358) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hT1vK-0004zt-RT for pearg@irtf.org; Tue, 21 May 2019 11:23:14 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F4828C6B-E7B6-410B-8948-94DE83F1BC4A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.8\)) Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 11:23:09 +0100 References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> To: "pearg@irtf.org" In-Reply-To: <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.8) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -16 Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:23:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F4828C6B-E7B6-410B-8948-94DE83F1BC4A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CCFEC715-7697-42BD-A365-BFC1BC231136" --Apple-Mail=_CCFEC715-7697-42BD-A365-BFC1BC231136 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All, This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of = draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement The draft is available at: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measu= rement/ = Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption = by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, etc. This call for adoption ends on 4th April 2019. Sara. --Apple-Mail=_CCFEC715-7697-42BD-A365-BFC1BC231136 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = All, 

This = email starts a two week Call for Adoption of = draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement

The draft is available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-int= ernet-measurement/

Please review this draft to see if you think = it is suitable for adoption by PEARG and send comments to the list, = clearly stating your view.

Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, = review, etc.

This call for adoption ends on 4th April 2019.

Sara. 

= --Apple-Mail=_CCFEC715-7697-42BD-A365-BFC1BC231136-- --Apple-Mail=_F4828C6B-E7B6-410B-8948-94DE83F1BC4A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEqP1Kpc9g0+oWTcufC7Fd4K9OAggFAlzj0Y0ACgkQC7Fd4K9O Agh8igf/e+7454yasCzu9V9BFSqkLRz7I0BgbA0hE/4ALISSq7V9MX+BmlDP8yDu 0nnT0dxAqsVpbMEEE2MatP5lQD+C05viyf2JGjimK62TXreeXQwqTIhgqS8pU3Vo 654tVXrswyseOd6nQh6U2kRTo9K0C88MVAoT19v36lJ4NgbhWpNTWfFOqmXZFw5g AkN6CVN/xcLx43fhUUaE/pZ/DhfUPHDUu6EMmhIwWFgkA6OWiCZGjm6/5eHdTW4Q qEs+N90NKjz3c0x/rpIf8weXs82zyF2zzshtOWzpNsEfjAQEZgKjEQ0ukTNQZcSA ErVcOfbW1xuz0XJtCAp8+FXrV1AC7g== =Bwj5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F4828C6B-E7B6-410B-8948-94DE83F1BC4A-- From nobody Tue May 21 03:24:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9845A12012F for ; Tue, 21 May 2019 03:24:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sinodun.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yHC6Mw-EaZOc for ; Tue, 21 May 2019 03:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31EF5120108 for ; Tue, 21 May 2019 03:24:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sinodun.com ; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=KUojZv0AZyyYFFntRxmIpoxwCl90Uj67t+lmJQAvCV0=; b=ajdCnQt3lmjGN4CpWolLBYs9nF 3boO4ETEYwc6h7QGpEQwUyoxOwIv2PLwjiITmQIIJGcd6SkELbF04uA6jfvM8TcTw1P1053p3FET5 byGF2U7R31+cy11MUweEoqvI9JRpoXeRqGnvbo6CrGuw8VPodajq0SA3SRNdCheft5kVwS70+T3cn g/NLoX5kOddFmRmfl8NvvBQKkqJ1mRTVp9m0QaJqhr/+zUH+2tpUtYWNFmSk6hyBpVtki7QKl7Dfs ILgEU0QIDC9jcdKl/0lbg9C9Qg5hLOcP84q3duqqUebo6L05Tk1GUEiSe+EciaN7r5QE0o/3SQoqF zo83zdjg==; Received: from [2001:b98:204:102:fffa::41e7] (port=60365) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hT1wV-0005EY-Ai for pearg@irtf.org; Tue, 21 May 2019 11:24:27 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_974B1359-9810-44CE-85F6-44F687BF13CE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.8\)) Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 11:24:22 +0100 References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> To: "pearg@irtf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.8) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -16 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:24:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_974B1359-9810-44CE-85F6-44F687BF13CE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F33F3190-0830-4899-BF55-AA16A1B2C3B7" --Apple-Mail=_F33F3190-0830-4899-BF55-AA16A1B2C3B7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 21 May 2019, at 11:23, Sara Dickinson wrote: >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of = draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement >=20 > The draft is available at: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measu= rement/ = >=20 > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for = adoption by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your = view. >=20 > Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, = etc. >=20 > This call for adoption ends on 4th April 2019. That should be 4th June 2019 - apologies :-) >=20 > Sara. >=20 --Apple-Mail=_F33F3190-0830-4899-BF55-AA16A1B2C3B7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 21 May 2019, at 11:23, Sara Dickinson <sara@sinodun.com> = wrote:

Hi All, 

This email starts a two = week Call for Adoption of = draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement

The draft is available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-int= ernet-measurement/

Please review this draft to see if you think = it is suitable for adoption by PEARG and send comments to the list, = clearly stating your view.

Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, = review, etc.

This call for adoption ends on 4th April = 2019.

That should be 4th June 2019 - apologies = :-)


Sara. 


= --Apple-Mail=_F33F3190-0830-4899-BF55-AA16A1B2C3B7-- --Apple-Mail=_974B1359-9810-44CE-85F6-44F687BF13CE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEqP1Kpc9g0+oWTcufC7Fd4K9OAggFAlzj0dYACgkQC7Fd4K9O AgjA3AgAovXioX5UK80LhTkYDXLfDm/Ds8hpCiKadZa9Uyj3Use3kEIiSGn1H3S5 GJuMPDiE2nqnicrqZqD/7Upkg3QMOVu5Dh5PlpHhSrdxHepkTnmkqZcHRhr1gx/r UOgKFJM5+V5t++/szyfjs7jdkQpSzhySxIGINbzWSRol9RHw6Ij3hhW3qIjp58dX ejWQc278z+nS5hic9EZT+9bMFEO5VzEnHNYRrIZlRfO97WpXNwj4RhZTWOJhgFrj Tgnrwi/JaSpWHjCL8fHLh9qcXivRTAioLPurbrKBPkoyPT+Cy8M0btUQAfagNvsT +a2q6lSFYdcsDmzsOA/g1uPo8IShnw== =H5JZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_974B1359-9810-44CE-85F6-44F687BF13CE-- From nobody Tue May 21 03:51:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA3912011C for ; 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Tue, 21 May 2019 11:51:37 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (unknown [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1EA37BE2C; Tue, 21 May 2019 11:51:37 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1558435897; bh=nXmHah6NtbpGJoJiB8iqBY8L7zRLWSJpppsFfJhQYwg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=4f0h28BGWvGHS/mIVUbJ52DRWRGUglegMhMmoozCPDTkZDu9WCj+AKGqL8xudVjMp uZxmIDPSw7d7ECETzdIauUgB/ufrT8owyjVL/WErLotmVrR+kV0TZJYtu7Xf0XhN2/ btNIB/UEvBsbZYZkm11Ek5gqJFoHXujcmaIaB3KY= To: Sara Dickinson , "pearg@irtf.org" References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <2be75dc8-c824-ba4c-8d75-839f639e1d93@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 11:51:36 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0a3W2pcBxg76Lc4CVMB94gTkfAi1B8uky" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:51:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0a3W2pcBxg76Lc4CVMB94gTkfAi1B8uky Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="pTxeppWX5nMjwo4GW9gtpuJ57XZz8A3zl"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Sara Dickinson , "pearg@irtf.org" Message-ID: <2be75dc8-c824-ba4c-8d75-839f639e1d93@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> In-Reply-To: --pTxeppWX5nMjwo4GW9gtpuJ57XZz8A3zl Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------21A07B2028E2A8038D2CD88A" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------21A07B2028E2A8038D2CD88A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21/05/2019 11:23, Sara Dickinson wrote: > Hi All, >=20 > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of draft-learmonth-pearg= -safe-internet-measurement I read it before the last IETF meeting and would be very happy to see it adopted and published. S. >=20 > The draft is available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learm= onth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement/ >=20 > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoptio= n by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. >=20 > Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, etc= =2E >=20 > This call for adoption ends on 4th April 2019. >=20 > Sara. >=20 >=20 >=20 --------------21A07B2028E2A8038D2CD88A Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy 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iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAlzj2DgACgkQWrL68XsX K+qTjBAAoO5iS+EtHAqG7Z8Bzx9RlfMTq2Qvwkf3Qlxk45ON5y9XsC/59hy1ZXcy 2eU+M/2rExbp8X//w7eButr6ZndIdwzZMJd9AkkCf4yVcJdHO2Sxy8vJqsgwOtsS ehN7DQk4FW5ISAVTXBJv19GeHaws8v1Wwaxy5X0Aq86/Xf2ZbuFy3izpyx3/W9Et 1ilhMDCFc1q2adFbySM6shCsZDTpmmAZD8zkF9Rszst9IOsxee3DY2JoMjH8KcaD kGhVtVk10Bg4Z3pty524TXjyHqy9N3tAfFjEooGKlyusjLPFqwg++Y33HXL8LPsh 970lQkifp68fmuzG6fG1W8NB1/1FxcUhS3plwIYUi65h2I2wfdms7tyKUFLJinVK PFcO6aCas/QGT/vd5ZyAva12wxL5B0A+A/w2yZNmGR2Fxi3qYzdDWdvcDF6NsgnE j/P697IJsYp6iC2hPaEA7uHCzjBMCsvbrQvGwWy0WmL/Y/kxYCnrdes8KhRU1eqa ZfukvoWIT1fLg9LkGs+tvTknImhsVOS0Z9KvsZlDhYlj/FB4jLeQ+/zlKLBEFYjl RFANK1KYmyHtgIgdPGFlyP2xYChlJePsz7STXYdnY9Jds3ZulDMSYLdfkPGKFBk7 g6LnS2vz8ex2pfiezsuW17FoTSzgFysMjpxGmHwQz5L8v6fXxUE= =csrz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0a3W2pcBxg76Lc4CVMB94gTkfAi1B8uky-- From nobody Tue May 21 05:00:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost 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b=Hca7Mm0E1USBYablbUCZfAbihg0uPFgqZCFJUfignNLVsgSDE+H4TLB5ZlpuvZhhT2 2/bDpZg5ckTG1WV1HUlmFN7FVjQH2VGdhTcCbAng2ii4ubiVDGJHXaknzn5i706nTHLt Z110GzZZ+++9t4RoXv5sc3yRI9Pxdzdh5uIMZBq0EyPjPcwPP9OPeaLNIMFa5tSFCUdl MqNRtlCbHcQ+/yAtaPDY7BPnqICqfQkdBxVJgy8uHIF+BNx+yluaNFUWRZwZ2e9tseGW FNlVakBfbtsZWPQ9jYR7zwrlXbvrIE65NZ+ZWNR5qmzPoMsqCcHRd1dbX3gjVoXN+lnz ivGA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWfgVq8xNvJcJJtb90Iq/iCTgnc98GieOTLhwYkpgBL/kcAxiNF cSkeaLg/RxK2abRwJgLg6+BUYTO9SWIuFxoZBX26DbCE X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyQQvFJfa7kGnqyJUsjXEXZiI34GsEJDNAOAWsAgk5BeK7cuMucOxUvKZBJe0ff/GvOtPi33VLGJ6ukMDabENY= X-Received: by 2002:a24:ac52:: with SMTP id m18mr3205916iti.146.1558440017496; Tue, 21 May 2019 05:00:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> <2be75dc8-c824-ba4c-8d75-839f639e1d93@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <2be75dc8-c824-ba4c-8d75-839f639e1d93@cs.tcd.ie> From: Amreesh Phokeer Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 15:59:41 +0400 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Sara Dickinson , "pearg@irtf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a5902905896497a9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:00:20 -0000 --000000000000a5902905896497a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I believe it's an important piece of document for researchers carrying Internet-wide measurements. I would like to see it adopted and published. -- Amreesh On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 2:51 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 21/05/2019 11:23, Sara Dickinson wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of > draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement > > I read it before the last IETF meeting and would be > very happy to see it adopted and published. > > S. > > > > > The draft is available at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement/ > < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement/ > > > > > > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption > by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. > > > > Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, etc. > > > > This call for adoption ends on 4th April 2019. > > > > Sara. > > > > > > > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > -- Amreesh Phokeer --000000000000a5902905896497a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe it's an important piece of document for rese= archers carrying Internet-wide measurements. I would like to see it adopted= and published.

--
Amreesh

On Tue, May 21= , 2019 at 2:51 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


On 21/05/2019 11:23, Sara Dickinson wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of draft-learmonth-pear= g-safe-internet-measurement

I read it before the last IETF meeting and would be
very happy to see it adopted and published.

S.

>
> The draft is available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-in= ternet-measurement/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-intern= et-measurement/>
>
> Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adopti= on by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view.
>
> Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, et= c.
>
> This call for adoption ends on 4th April 2019.
>
> Sara.
>
>
>
--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg


--
Amreesh Phokeer
--000000000000a5902905896497a9-- From nobody Thu May 23 00:41:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA41D120026 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 00:41:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gOoGEiWZAHr8 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 00:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 485AC120019 for ; 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Thu, 23 May 2019 09:41:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 09:41:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Sara Dickinson , "pearg@irtf.org" Message-ID: <1465475501.12027.1558597263533@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 07:41:10 -0000

Il 21 maggio 2019 12:23 Sara Dickinson <sara@sinodun.com> ha scritto:


Hi All, 

This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement


Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view.

Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, etc.
It's a useful document, I am in favour of adoption.
Separately, I think I have comments on the "consent" section - it's fine to discuss what would be nice to do, but at least in GDPR-land there is hard law on what requires end-user consent and what does not, which of course takes precedence.
Ciao,
-- 
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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Thu, 23 May 2019 09:56:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 09:56:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Mallory Knodel , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <2076823086.12099.1558598183028@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <58b015ab-4003-49b5-a46a-2fc0e9633ccf@article19.org> References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <58b015ab-4003-49b5-a46a-2fc0e9633ccf@article19.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 07:56:29 -0000 > Il 20 maggio 2019 12:25 Mallory Knodel ha scritto: > > I can imagine a lot of cases in which platforms remove content that is > benign but irrelevant. If I run a social media network that is about > parenting, I'm probably going to have a code of conduct or terms of > service that gives me the right to remove content that is extraneous to > this topic. Spam, too. This is also valid for security practices at the transport level (firewalls, malware/botnet filtering etc) as well as blocks for local usage policy (e.g. companies blocking access to social media from their offices during working hours). The basic issue is that the technological instruments used for these practices are often the same that are used for censorship. This is why you cannot just make a list of technologies (or, as in section 6, non-technical practices) and suggest that protocol designers and service operators should avoid them because they are used for censorship. It depends whether the "policy decisions enacted technically" are good or bad; so the text should at least discuss the other uses that each technology has, and perhaps elaborate on what can be done (if at all possible at the technical level) to tell censorship from other uses - though it looks pretty hard to achieve consensus on whether blocking certain things is censorship or not (e.g. fake news/hate speech), as it depends on local values. Ciao, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Thu May 23 01:10:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9500912013B for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 01:10:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Huk-nd-RvtkA for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 01:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1465475501.12027.1558597263533@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hEXUppmFmkrLp7kXUmOPLfeRY7m8dYhG1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 08:10:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --hEXUppmFmkrLp7kXUmOPLfeRY7m8dYhG1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="muqkc7Ih2ORXnqQCNfFdlr6CbgnTwtqct"; protected-headers="v1" From: Iain Learmonth To: pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <9960db0f-4ae2-a681-d809-712b606407d8@torproject.org> Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> <1465475501.12027.1558597263533@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1465475501.12027.1558597263533@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> --muqkc7Ih2ORXnqQCNfFdlr6CbgnTwtqct Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23/05/2019 08:41, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > Separately, I think I have comments on the "consent" section - it's fin= e > to discuss what would be nice to do, but at least in GDPR-land there is= > hard law on what requires end-user consent and what does not, which of > course takes precedence. This document is not meant to offer legal advice, but rather set a baseline for safety that may be further restricted by local laws. I'd like to just say this once in the scope section, and not have to repeat it throughout the document. On the other hand, if GDPR has specific places that would require consent then I would be happy to cite those as referenced examples to help readers. I think specific examples definitely have a place in this document. Thanks, Iain. --muqkc7Ih2ORXnqQCNfFdlr6CbgnTwtqct-- --hEXUppmFmkrLp7kXUmOPLfeRY7m8dYhG1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE/ps4MHN0fw3t6AudF4mIfdjVvF0FAlzmVXkACgkQF4mIfdjV vF1MYBAAvIYGN5mQUtne5nINVxhJEbL+wvAtNuE5hepqCWNNWaIO3j797W56ejOJ yblwIvrZ8MDZUzhAdxymbfPuHqh/Y/jUboabivMpBoHokTUQti4ySm5UyYdMr9IK 8yNy2CPhfDokOQUmbiTcd6vXN5D4fZy+XG6R3GRHV33Tp5be3g1q8xx3fL+aye2L E9GKLeypJ7nCVqQ3wKbH+lEC8qlM/tJfn+aZOdK8NHCZj+fUM0+WqcyYsywwRHa7 xNc29puO3a0nXkt6n2eJCHDqwrL8p/mmaEiPAJg1MCJUQlOOfQuj4t+HSlUlkNjD uP4qgwIo4KKNpTQ1Vn4IZ9wdZhGcy1CwGXcjFc07PbfVsjfU8606So/TeMc5S/44 34U6SDa4pmtXsuHC77q7YHH14zz9sybcnRHPu3hFQ0OgP8sW7/K8X208he51NPm7 YncWJvmavSRtwg8hjokCKiheOBEUtf69gWy1HWV3H7WMr6oPweI+LTBFgtSHcj6X DY8o58hxSLiEmOX1nqaknc2FL/a2p0AVGxVRPYtxWbcO7vWSwao36p12IlI9TYT+ cfrOEx2MgTpBc7HxG3rvQPypEG/G2FgjOs4JZgRBNkdMj3bSVVRik3HIaxxVgyhB oFVXMALsHHEeeDszxRgcps6uQ9qZV13EL7wgyVz7rdIx6Sw946k= =klP5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hEXUppmFmkrLp7kXUmOPLfeRY7m8dYhG1-- From nobody Thu May 23 01:52:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBFD120178 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 01:52:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S86b0W-caOhH for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 01:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BA5F120175 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 01:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hTjSF-0005oN-34; Thu, 23 May 2019 10:52:33 +0200 To: Vittorio Bertola , pearg@irtf.org References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <58b015ab-4003-49b5-a46a-2fc0e9633ccf@article19.org> <2076823086.12099.1558598183028@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAG0Jk1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+iQFWBBMBCABAAhsD BwsJCAcDAgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1h mgUJEepHrwAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgH3DCAC1sjJmg4+/VcESEzNkiF3KHEDCAssEaQl2FWfuXVvJ /mPliFtjpVv6EhdgUG5lbOcu12TCUWg42wHkE2kbDWXLE3f7HL+Nq0pEPVdMRXLxEfaOs2oR KGx8lh4k1UgYEpnARI486TklOAONKWdJKstEPrtt9LtysnjvhZvYCTzLKJC98c5wUvC46QYy +NdK6GB+uyVzW5kP2uUUBYxiCyHivGBbv77jcJAFVAk96ut1GFpeCCZM2WyYzer95b9n9a1B UGdJgEEVVbbBIQw7yMbMPqEwa8rpfig7QG72GieYItQjllHXGbOECiBcOHrGtrFWsHWxOxJV bZSoVq6sn1UUuQENBEx0TWcBCADiak/YuMW4BbaWL0U9sNg4zO3Qy1OFeye8fJjR8O/wWVSq cqA+sxjzRUee2fHCp6kVLedy6dVfiKmr59p21r4selOdslKaWmEGtz2oYnGpyPB/jKjfleE5 cIkXCdqgDAhfbfuVdF7heHpfhUy4m3yOJl2+CluT/CG9AfaCtyrwqMJzLWK4vmkGXxnBgb92 mGK0WFB2oRydz+SsiobgpCAqJSLcr8ZHQ54SbD9yxxYPv8IsSjt4eJoZCFI7INBsz4i7aj/q 4xcxQ+xiUwyqCZUvrzMxpw7c8TXuPHStDyhnsKkFjxhlY5avNeu0VPwk72C64I+y93gpPrL3 vL0tEmU9ABEBAAGJATwEGAECACYCGwwWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1hmgUJ EepHswAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgEDZCACcTamfNdBACpPHsmsJL1hbWertwYZg7h2rZtgmZQ9C2PMT OgkPPSsfi+xZ6PaXlvm2RI/TX51LbJsCJ9Fd2/WxKdtC0s6o7+0Cl3P57AORf3BRfl3zfXuy VhzjLvM9WhDiQM6JBqDuYxiYnjO56l+gozEuBAtUJaPIxGyggyS5eT8kKv8Szpc4g7/skZXq ccVOHj05KCOaFQ774rsIzcwppqJqGjh9X6nX6m2DONuBIYNXjH9U6FxHSJ6gRRxZkiz2/dDZ YqsHYlkKigH82r9gORhIGZkCd7xnRhyLOHnjjeKtIy5pvGwxUohy+y5l8i1155JEPNB7pphY xFxjMOQU Message-ID: <2c514d92-c426-2869-b589-215a3d84b224@article19.org> Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 11:51:59 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2076823086.12099.1558598183028@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 1fac81774939798d1cdb19633eb460de Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 08:52:38 -0000 On 23/05/2019 10:56, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >=20 >> Il 20 maggio 2019 12:25 Mallory Knodel ha >> scritto: >>=20 >> I can imagine a lot of cases in which platforms remove content that >> is benign but irrelevant. If I run a social media network that is >> about parenting, I'm probably going to have a code of conduct or >> terms of service that gives me the right to remove content that is >> extraneous to this topic. Spam, too. >=20 > This is also valid for security practices at the transport level > (firewalls, malware/botnet filtering etc) as well as blocks for local > usage policy (e.g. companies blocking access to social media from > their offices during working hours). >=20 > The basic issue is that the technological instruments used for these > practices are often the same that are used for censorship. This is > why you cannot just make a list of technologies (or, as in section 6, > non-technical practices) and suggest that protocol designers and > service operators should avoid them because they are used for > censorship. It's absolutely fair to say some technology is dual use and to spend all of one's time talking about the bad and undesirable of the two. Otherwise, this document is no longer research focussed on censorship. > It depends whether the "policy decisions enacted > technically" are good or bad; so the text should at least discuss the > other uses that each technology has, and perhaps elaborate on what > can be done (if at all possible at the technical level) to tell > censorship from other uses - though it looks pretty hard to achieve > consensus on whether blocking certain things is censorship or not > (e.g. fake news/hate speech), as it depends on local values. Maybe it's the connotation or interpretation of the word "censorship" that is getting in the way. It's all censorship, but some of it might be legitimate (literally in accordance with law and norms). -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Thu May 23 01:57:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFB012016B for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 01:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TOuN03CSLRKo for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 01:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7929C120019 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 01:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hTjXE-0007Rr-Q4 for pearg@irtf.org; Thu, 23 May 2019 10:57:43 +0200 To: pearg@irtf.org References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAG0Jk1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+iQFWBBMBCABAAhsD BwsJCAcDAgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1h mgUJEepHrwAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgH3DCAC1sjJmg4+/VcESEzNkiF3KHEDCAssEaQl2FWfuXVvJ /mPliFtjpVv6EhdgUG5lbOcu12TCUWg42wHkE2kbDWXLE3f7HL+Nq0pEPVdMRXLxEfaOs2oR KGx8lh4k1UgYEpnARI486TklOAONKWdJKstEPrtt9LtysnjvhZvYCTzLKJC98c5wUvC46QYy +NdK6GB+uyVzW5kP2uUUBYxiCyHivGBbv77jcJAFVAk96ut1GFpeCCZM2WyYzer95b9n9a1B UGdJgEEVVbbBIQw7yMbMPqEwa8rpfig7QG72GieYItQjllHXGbOECiBcOHrGtrFWsHWxOxJV bZSoVq6sn1UUuQENBEx0TWcBCADiak/YuMW4BbaWL0U9sNg4zO3Qy1OFeye8fJjR8O/wWVSq cqA+sxjzRUee2fHCp6kVLedy6dVfiKmr59p21r4selOdslKaWmEGtz2oYnGpyPB/jKjfleE5 cIkXCdqgDAhfbfuVdF7heHpfhUy4m3yOJl2+CluT/CG9AfaCtyrwqMJzLWK4vmkGXxnBgb92 mGK0WFB2oRydz+SsiobgpCAqJSLcr8ZHQ54SbD9yxxYPv8IsSjt4eJoZCFI7INBsz4i7aj/q 4xcxQ+xiUwyqCZUvrzMxpw7c8TXuPHStDyhnsKkFjxhlY5avNeu0VPwk72C64I+y93gpPrL3 vL0tEmU9ABEBAAGJATwEGAECACYCGwwWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1hmgUJ EepHswAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgEDZCACcTamfNdBACpPHsmsJL1hbWertwYZg7h2rZtgmZQ9C2PMT OgkPPSsfi+xZ6PaXlvm2RI/TX51LbJsCJ9Fd2/WxKdtC0s6o7+0Cl3P57AORf3BRfl3zfXuy VhzjLvM9WhDiQM6JBqDuYxiYnjO56l+gozEuBAtUJaPIxGyggyS5eT8kKv8Szpc4g7/skZXq ccVOHj05KCOaFQ774rsIzcwppqJqGjh9X6nX6m2DONuBIYNXjH9U6FxHSJ6gRRxZkiz2/dDZ YqsHYlkKigH82r9gORhIGZkCd7xnRhyLOHnjjeKtIy5pvGwxUohy+y5l8i1155JEPNB7pphY xFxjMOQU Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 11:57:07 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ofKnS58Skvsku9Eyr6LAwZnPHZzHfZmX0" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 2c269fdec788119c0964d98755c55204 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 08:57:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ofKnS58Skvsku9Eyr6LAwZnPHZzHfZmX0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MKZsBQFixUU0DnEWhP50QiAKVdxqHnAWA"; protected-headers="v1" From: Mallory Knodel To: pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> In-Reply-To: --MKZsBQFixUU0DnEWhP50QiAKVdxqHnAWA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21/05/2019 13:23, Sara Dickinson wrote: > Hi All,=A0 >=20 > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of > draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement >=20 > The draft is available at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-me= asurement/ >=20 > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoptio= n > by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. Very happy to see that this draft presents so clearly so much, already at this stage. I think that it should be adopted by the RG. I could help with writing text for a human rights considerations section. Also happy to review. -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --MKZsBQFixUU0DnEWhP50QiAKVdxqHnAWA-- --ofKnS58Skvsku9Eyr6LAwZnPHZzHfZmX0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlzmYGMACgkQDDKicb08 x4AGegf/R8sNdGMrHH11k/rN8Trb5fWQJXWzFB68ComGF8DTgyCrc2j4blGbxJsH 1draU7MoAt4tyKNb6bvyvHmj/9TJNwWP+1XW18zicQ58bNNNUkM/4STy7T2eiFCh TYyp2/ZyBZFZka/tILdVqNv2iD7xMa82je1LUv50W+MhfZ/juD7vazSQ1/vQBtqd 83yKrHjjuziveiNTIOVK5i/0rtUtCjBMJ7+KYiEstbc+M51f/024gnBVKhoZx3Xy zFlHdhooU5IZL4M5EPu0auxUtgdQ22+1lfVyKQwQ1QwSnsgEykZW9p+Z180fRGnQ 1xfduqLkr487uSjumqYmu9XCabo2gw== =QDOS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ofKnS58Skvsku9Eyr6LAwZnPHZzHfZmX0-- From nobody Thu May 23 03:59:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B22B1200B3 for ; 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Thu, 23 May 2019 12:58:59 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1558609139; bh=+UYNGNiN7uzuwnhssrFyGejRp7iOY5IIi/ULTI33oWg=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=5rPy750PVVXCkptmKeB/O2sPRC6QHRIYgf0TGN5YcaP2YRBOal08iyx+Apg8q2nUh O2v5OsC0mPxKdrkNFBDM/885p9yIBilqAUWidLXqmJXgdIp4mgo6ehQlR22vvWRrM4 ZWotX+YGtRd3SL67VHsKy3M4Rql3I9QNTmMtk1AiEWA8SWxCcnIBTqM3gDfFp+iCp+ Gj+7FJxc2a/FDv4PdVnZNkltHVsCvKXkok/eFi67vmaywxvQXjKYiKhV64IzarJDEX jJl8cznzr4qP0sLHEEH9V5273/XMvoQvmkJsUE9CgZzlzZR9/EwKyGIm/pTuOokI0B l3ib4K9iG6HNw== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9CBE3C01D0; Thu, 23 May 2019 12:58:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 12:58:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Mallory Knodel , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <337912501.12768.1558609139766@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <2c514d92-c426-2869-b589-215a3d84b224@article19.org> References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <58b015ab-4003-49b5-a46a-2fc0e9633ccf@article19.org> <2076823086.12099.1558598183028@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2c514d92-c426-2869-b589-215a3d84b224@article19.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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It's all censorship, but some of it might be > legitimate (literally in accordance with law and norms). You are right that the definition of "censorship" in section 1 is so broad that any suppression of any content would fall within its scope. However, most people would associate the term "censorship" with the negative use cases(*), or at least with use cases where the suppression is motivated by the opinions and information communicated through the content, rather than by its form or its pertinence to the context. In common talk, I don't think that anyone would consider stuff like (e.g.) removing off-topic posts from a discussion forum, blocking traffic from a virus trying to replicate itself, or preventing access to an online pharmacy that does not have the appropriate licenses, as censorship. Now, if you only want to provide a survey of technologies, it could be enough to state at the beginning that there are also acceptable uses of these technologies but you will only focus on the negative ones. However, I am afraid that, coupled with the broad definition of censorship, this might still give the impression to the reader that this is a list of things that are bad in themselves, and also it will not be very useful research for subsequent application in the IETF space, as the difficult part is what should a protocol designer or implementer do when having to cope with these techniques. Ciao, (*) I am using moral terms such as negative and positive because I guess that in authoritarian countries political censorship is "literally legitimate" :-) though this is also one of the hot policy issues, i.e. whether the IETF should work to disrupt some country's laws when they mandate censorship-the-one-we-all-really-dislike. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Thu May 23 04:15:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB04B1200C4 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 04:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kKc2pVycwNgp for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 04:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C82D120019 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 04:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hTlgY-0003Jr-93; Thu, 23 May 2019 13:14:59 +0200 To: Vittorio Bertola , pearg@irtf.org References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <58b015ab-4003-49b5-a46a-2fc0e9633ccf@article19.org> <2076823086.12099.1558598183028@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2c514d92-c426-2869-b589-215a3d84b224@article19.org> <337912501.12768.1558609139766@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAG0Jk1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+iQFWBBMBCABAAhsD BwsJCAcDAgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1h mgUJEepHrwAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgH3DCAC1sjJmg4+/VcESEzNkiF3KHEDCAssEaQl2FWfuXVvJ /mPliFtjpVv6EhdgUG5lbOcu12TCUWg42wHkE2kbDWXLE3f7HL+Nq0pEPVdMRXLxEfaOs2oR KGx8lh4k1UgYEpnARI486TklOAONKWdJKstEPrtt9LtysnjvhZvYCTzLKJC98c5wUvC46QYy +NdK6GB+uyVzW5kP2uUUBYxiCyHivGBbv77jcJAFVAk96ut1GFpeCCZM2WyYzer95b9n9a1B UGdJgEEVVbbBIQw7yMbMPqEwa8rpfig7QG72GieYItQjllHXGbOECiBcOHrGtrFWsHWxOxJV bZSoVq6sn1UUuQENBEx0TWcBCADiak/YuMW4BbaWL0U9sNg4zO3Qy1OFeye8fJjR8O/wWVSq cqA+sxjzRUee2fHCp6kVLedy6dVfiKmr59p21r4selOdslKaWmEGtz2oYnGpyPB/jKjfleE5 cIkXCdqgDAhfbfuVdF7heHpfhUy4m3yOJl2+CluT/CG9AfaCtyrwqMJzLWK4vmkGXxnBgb92 mGK0WFB2oRydz+SsiobgpCAqJSLcr8ZHQ54SbD9yxxYPv8IsSjt4eJoZCFI7INBsz4i7aj/q 4xcxQ+xiUwyqCZUvrzMxpw7c8TXuPHStDyhnsKkFjxhlY5avNeu0VPwk72C64I+y93gpPrL3 vL0tEmU9ABEBAAGJATwEGAECACYCGwwWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1hmgUJ EepHswAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgEDZCACcTamfNdBACpPHsmsJL1hbWertwYZg7h2rZtgmZQ9C2PMT OgkPPSsfi+xZ6PaXlvm2RI/TX51LbJsCJ9Fd2/WxKdtC0s6o7+0Cl3P57AORf3BRfl3zfXuy VhzjLvM9WhDiQM6JBqDuYxiYnjO56l+gozEuBAtUJaPIxGyggyS5eT8kKv8Szpc4g7/skZXq ccVOHj05KCOaFQ774rsIzcwppqJqGjh9X6nX6m2DONuBIYNXjH9U6FxHSJ6gRRxZkiz2/dDZ YqsHYlkKigH82r9gORhIGZkCd7xnRhyLOHnjjeKtIy5pvGwxUohy+y5l8i1155JEPNB7pphY xFxjMOQU Message-ID: <86f9073b-2dfc-7519-5633-bf2fa167c91f@article19.org> Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 14:14:54 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <337912501.12768.1558609139766@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 919fae14bc17c74543a025539baad412 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 11:15:04 -0000 Hi, Just quickly, On 23/05/2019 13:58, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 23 maggio 2019 10:51 Mallory Knodel ha >> scritto: >> >> Maybe it's the connotation or interpretation of the word >> "censorship" that is getting in the way. It's all censorship, but >> some of it might be legitimate (literally in accordance with law >> and norms). > > (*) I am using moral terms such as negative and positive because I > guess that in authoritarian countries political censorship is > "literally legitimate" :-) though this is also one of the hot policy > issues, i.e. whether the IETF should work to disrupt some country's > laws when they mandate censorship-the-one-we-all-really-dislike. I should have framed this as an application of international human rights (a standard), which therefore wouldn't condone political censorship as legitimate. -M -- Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Thu May 23 04:19:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C593C1200CD for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 04:19:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T-3gYHiOzVHV for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 04:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D15D120019 for ; Thu, 23 May 2019 04:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB671BE50; Thu, 23 May 2019 12:19:26 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ex9Ds2lNldB0; Thu, 23 May 2019 12:19:24 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.4.240.120] (dd5fb4628.static.telenet.be [213.251.70.40]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4015FBE3E; Thu, 23 May 2019 12:19:24 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1558610364; bh=ePn3SIMIuJTp4g0WG1UBSjB4gZ6q4ocViARtBAQZZ08=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2076823086.12099.1558598183028@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Nol3vLMvXVc7kXQpOwnC97xGWWq9YhfMP" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 11:19:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Nol3vLMvXVc7kXQpOwnC97xGWWq9YhfMP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0RIxH4njzQ3P73RUB9TQiAQatcYIkNPZA"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio Bertola , Mallory Knodel , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <2ae3254f-486b-8876-e5ad-855392eb1989@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech References: <1397790134.3745.1558087203082@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <542887485.4822.1558343428572@appsuite-dev-gw2.open-xchange.com> <58b015ab-4003-49b5-a46a-2fc0e9633ccf@article19.org> <2076823086.12099.1558598183028@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <2076823086.12099.1558598183028@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> --0RIxH4njzQ3P73RUB9TQiAQatcYIkNPZA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1FDEDE1B93A05D64F88B5DAD" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1FDEDE1B93A05D64F88B5DAD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23/05/2019 08:56, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > This is why you cannot just make a list of technologies (or, as in > section 6, non-technical practices) and suggest that protocol > designers and service operators should avoid them because they are > used for censorship. My understanding of this draft is that it documents the uses of these mechanisms for censorship so that protocol designers are aware of them, not in the hope that protocol designers can prevent use of those mechanisms for censorship. I think that's a good goal as perhaps not that many people are aware of such details. It's also a good goal as it doesn't require boiling any oceans, which would be the case if one were to set out to document all uses of these mechanisms, add all the pros and cons, consider GPDR issues etc and basically take a few years for no particularly useful outcome. This document needs none of that bolted on IMO. 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APjAAAUdN7SVEglPXlDnIhLVhjhfQI2w4QQh3Ya2actdq7T2UYWeP31R yXUL1mmigqhH5/b8jB18oy9h5WlP/uLSPeVam3c3BsWvuy8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwgNPiaxxvNZ+itHiCZqbA4nlxvN9qH9j3k51JuX2TQtSv2+gUqXwyvQVyv9Fhb3laKaan1hHowYOdRDOs9KoM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7d02:: with SMTP id y2mr34869095ljc.62.1558964125962; Mon, 27 May 2019 06:35:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 06:34:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Sara Dickinson Cc: "pearg@irtf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f2278a0589de9e84" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 13:35:32 -0000 --000000000000f2278a0589de9e84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I have reviewed this document and while I think some of the advice here is potentially useful, I don't think the recommendations really match what's current practice or what's practical. As such, I don't think it should be adopted without quite a bit more work. As background, here is a partial list of the kinds of studies that are commonly done: - A/B tests of browser behavior where we randomize users into a control and treatment group and then measure some parameter (e.g., connection success rate) under normal browsing usage. This kind of A/B test is standard practice for many browser features, at least for Chrome and Firefox. See: https://textslashplain.com/2017/10/18/chrome-field-trials/ https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/shield - Forced tests where we have the browser perform some action (e.g., connect to a server) with various parameters and measure differences between the parameter settings. This is less common, but we used these during the roll out of TLS 1.3 and are currently using these for DoH. See: https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/11/27/next-steps-in-dns-over-https-testing/ - Studies where we use an ad network to initiate some behavior in the browser. This is pretty common approach when you don't control a browser measurement platform. See, for instance: https://labs.apnic.net/?p=341 https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity13/technical-sessions/paper/lian - Wide-scale scans (e.g., https://zmap.io/). I don't really want to get into a long debate about whether any particular study type is appropriate. Rather, these are common study types and so if the advice in this document is to be useful, then it needs to reasonably match what people do -- or at least have a much stronger argument that people should change what they do than is offered here. S 2. CONSENT The text in this draft leans pretty heavily on getting consent, either direct consent (including all users of the shared network) or "proxy consent". However, many of these kinds of studies don't really lend themselves to detailed consent from individual users of the browser -- let alone to from every user on the network they are on. As a concrete example, ad-type studies don't generally get any kind of consent at all. For instance, here's the experimental setup for APNIC's DNSSEC measurements: https://labs.apnic.net/?p=341 The experiment uses an online advertisement campaign to deliver the test code to end systems. When the end system is passed an ad that is carrying the experiment the system runs embedded Adobe Flash code. The code is executed when the ad is passed to the user, and does not rely on a user "click" or any other user trigger action. The active code interrogates one of two experiment controllers by performing a URL fetch. The contents of the fetched experiment control URL are a dynamically generated sequence of four URLs. These four URLs are the substance of the test setup. It's worth noting at this point that the Web is a platform for running remote code, and by browsing you're opting into that, and ad studies just leverage that behavior. As another example, Mozilla's Shield Studies system (https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Shield/Shield_Studies),is generally opt-out, with a specific opt-in for when the study collects more sensitive data: Shield Studies are available on all channels. Individual studies can be opt-out or opt-in depending on the nature of the study and the data being collected. Opt-out Shield Studies can only collect Type 1 and 2 data. This is the same type of basic interaction data we collect by default as defined in our privacy policy. There may be instances where we want to collect data that is not covered by our default data collection policies. In those instances you will be prompted to opt-in to the study. A complete description of the study and any additional data that would be collected will be disclosed before enrolling. A great example of this is Pioneer, which is actually an opt-in Shield Study currently in the wild. As above, in the cases where it's opt-in, the primary question is about the user's private data, and it's when that data is implicated that we get more consent. There's no practical way to get consent from other users of the same network. So, the consent section of this draft doesn't seem to really apply well. Now, obviously, one could argue that this kind of study should follow a different set of practices, but I don't think that's really right. There seem to be two core issues here: - The effects of various changes on the user or the network they are on. - The data collection inherent in doing the study. WRT to the first point, as a general matter, modern browsers auto-update, so the user has generally opted into regularly getting whatever new code the vendor thinks makes the best browser. We use studies to determine whether a given change is good but in many cases the alternative is just to roll the change out to everyone, effectively doing the study on the whole population. So, either we can have that effect on everyone or only on a limited subset (what we do now). We run a lot of experiments and having explicit consent for each one would make that much harder, resulting in testing much more on the full population. Similarly, on the topic of data collection, browsers report back quite a bit of technical data about their behavior. In both Chrome and Firefox, this is on by default, though you can turn it off. As suggested by the quote above on Shield studies, many studies just gather this kind of data (and often data that the browser would already report back) and Mozilla, at least, has a pretty well-developed framework for determining what kind of data requires what level of consent (https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Data_Collection). S 3.4. When deciding on the data to collect, assume that any data collected might become public. There are many ways that this could happen, through operation security mistakes or compulsion by a judicial system. This seems like it might be a good practice under some circumstances, but impractical in many other cases. Moreover, given the enormous amounts of personal data that users routinely hand to Web sites, this seems like an unreasonably high standard. S 3.5. For all data collected, consider whether or not it is really needed. This section (and Section 4) seem really undeveloped. As a comparison point, consider Mozilla's Data Collection principles (https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Data_Collection). I'm not saying that those principles are perfect, but they're fairly complete and thought through. if you're going to publishing an RFC with proposed principles for what data is collected, I would expect it to be comparably thorough. On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 3:23 AM Sara Dickinson wrote: > Hi All, > > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of > draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement > > The draft is available at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement/ > > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption > by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. > > Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, review, etc. > > This call for adoption ends on 4th April 2019. > > Sara. > > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > --000000000000f2278a0589de9e84 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have reviewed this document and while I think some of th= e advice
here is potentially useful, I don't think the recommendatio= ns really
match what's current practice or what's practical. As = such, I don't
think it should be adopted without quite a bit more wo= rk.


As background, here is a partial list of the kinds of studie= s that
are commonly done:

- A/B tests of browser behavior where w= e randomize users into
=C2=A0 a control and treatment group and then mea= sure some parameter
=C2=A0 (e.g., connection success rate) under normal = browsing usage.
=C2=A0 This kind of A/B test is standard practice for ma= ny browser
=C2=A0 features, at least for Chrome and Firefox. See:
=C2= =A0 = https://textslashplain.com/2017/10/18/chrome-field-trials/
=C2=A0 https://support.mozil= la.org/en-US/kb/shield
=C2=A0
- Forced tests where we have the b= rowser perform some action
=C2=A0 (e.g., connect to a server) with vario= us parameters and
=C2=A0 measure differences between the parameter setti= ngs.
=C2=A0 This is less common, but we used these during the roll out=C2=A0 of TLS 1.3 and are currently using these for DoH.
=C2=A0 See: <= a href=3D"https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/11/27/next-steps-in-= dns-over-https-testing/">https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/11/27= /next-steps-in-dns-over-https-testing/
=C2=A0
- Studies where we= use an ad network to initiate some behavior
=C2=A0 in the browser. This= is pretty common approach when you don't
=C2=A0 control a browser m= easurement platform. See, for instance:
=C2=A0 https://labs.apnic.net/?p=3D341
=C2=A0 https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity13/technical-sessio= ns/paper/lian
=C2=A0
- Wide-scale scans (e.g., https://zmap.io/).

I don't really want to get in= to a long debate about whether any
particular study type is appropriate.= Rather, these are common study
types and so if the advice in this docum= ent is to be useful, then it
needs to reasonably match what people do --= or at least have a much
stronger argument that people should change wha= t they do than is
offered here.



S 2. CONSENT
The text = in this draft leans pretty heavily on getting consent,
either direct con= sent (including all users of the shared network)
or "proxy consent&= quot;.

However, many of these kinds of studies don't really lend= themselves
to detailed consent from individual users of the browser -- = let alone
to from every user on the network they are on. As a concrete e= xample,
ad-type studies don't generally get any kind of consent at a= ll.=C2=A0 For
instance, here's the experimental setup for APNIC'= s DNSSEC
measurements: https= ://labs.apnic.net/?p=3D341

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The experiment uses an = online advertisement campaign to deliver
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the test code to = end systems. When the end system is passed an ad
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is c= arrying the experiment the system runs embedded Adobe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Flas= h code. The code is executed when the ad is passed to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = user, and does not rely on a user "click" or any other user
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 trigger action. The active code interrogates one of two exper= iment
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 controllers by performing a URL fetch. The contents = of the fetched
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 experiment control URL are a dynamically ge= nerated sequence of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 four URLs. These four URLs are the sub= stance of the test setup.

It's worth noting at this point that t= he Web is a platform for running
remote code, and by browsing you're= opting into that, and ad studies
just leverage that behavior.

As another example, Mozilla's Shield Studies system
(https://wiki.mozilla.= org/Firefox/Shield/Shield_Studies),is generally
opt-out, with a spec= ific opt-in for when the study collects
more sensitive data:

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Shield Studies are available on all channels. Individual studies=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 can be opt-out or opt-in depending on the nature of the s= tudy and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the data being collected. Opt-out Shield Studies = can only collect
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Type 1 and 2 data. This is the same type = of basic interaction data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 we collect by default as defined= in our privacy policy. There may
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be instances where we wa= nt to collect data that is not covered by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 our default data= collection policies. In those instances you will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be promp= ted to opt-in to the study. A complete description of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = study and any additional data that would be collected will be
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 disclosed before enrolling. A great example of this is Pioneer,
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 which is actually an opt-in Shield Study currently in the wild.<= br>
As above, in the cases where it's opt-in, the primary question i= s
about the user's private data, and it's when that data is impl= icated
that we get more consent. There's no practical way to get con= sent from
other users of the same network. So, the consent section of th= is draft
doesn't seem to really apply well.

Now, obviously, o= ne could argue that this kind of study should follow
a different set of = practices, but I don't think that's really
right. There seem to = be two core issues here:

- The effects of various changes on the use= r or the network they are
=C2=A0 on.

- The data collection inhere= nt in doing the study.

WRT to the first point, as a general matter, = modern browsers
auto-update, so the user has generally opted into regula= rly getting
whatever new code the vendor thinks makes the best browser. = We use
studies to determine whether a given change is good but in many c= ases
the alternative is just to roll the change out to everyone,
effe= ctively doing the study on the whole population. So, either
we can have = that effect on everyone or only on a limited subset
(what we do now). We= run a lot of experiments and having explicit
consent for each one would= make that much harder, resulting in
testing much more on the full popul= ation.

Similarly, on the topic of data collection, browsers report b= ack quite
a bit of technical data about their behavior. In both Chrome a= nd
Firefox, this is on by default, though you can turn it off. As
sug= gested by the quote above on Shield studies, many studies just
gather th= is kind of data (and often data that the browser would
already report ba= ck) and Mozilla, at least, has a pretty
well-developed framework for det= ermining what kind of data requires
what level of consent
(https://wiki.mozilla.org= /Firefox/Data_Collection).



S 3.4.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Wh= en deciding on the data to collect, assume that any data collected
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0might become public.=C2=A0 There are many ways that this could ha= ppen,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0through operation security mistakes or compulsion by = a judicial
=C2=A0 =C2=A0system.

This seems like it might be a goo= d practice under some circumstances,
but impractical in many other cases= . Moreover, given the enormous
amounts of personal data that users routi= nely hand to Web sites,
this seems like an unreasonably high standard.

S 3.5.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For all data collected, consider whether o= r not it is really needed.

This section (and Section 4) seem really = undeveloped. As a comparison
point, consider Mozilla's Data Collecti= on principles
(https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Data_Collection). I'm not sayi= ng
that those principles are perfect, but they're fairly complete an= d
thought through. if you're going to publishing an RFC with propose= d
principles for what data is collected, I would expect it to be
comp= arably thorough.




















=C2=A0

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 3:23 AM Sar= a Dickinson <sara@sinodun.com>= ; wrote:
Hi All,=C2=A0

This em= ail starts a two week Call for Adoption of draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-inter= net-measurement


Plea= se review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption by PEA= RG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view.

=
Please also indicate if you are willing to contribute text, revi= ew, etc.

This call for adoption ends on 4th April = 2019.

Sara.=C2=A0

= --
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg
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Mon, 27 May 2019 17:23:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 17:23:21 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "pearg@irtf.org" Message-ID: <309616304.24548.1558970601133@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 15:23:26 -0000

Il 27 maggio 2019 15:34 Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> ha scritto:


S 2. CONSENT
The text in this draft leans pretty heavily on getting consent,
either direct consent (including all users of the shared network)
or "proxy consent".

However, many of these kinds of studies don't really lend themselves
to detailed consent from individual users of the browser -- let alone
to from every user on the network they are on. As a concrete example,
ad-type studies don't generally get any kind of consent at all.  For
instance, here's the experimental setup for APNIC's DNSSEC
measurements: https://labs.apnic.net/?p=341

    The experiment uses an online advertisement campaign to deliver
    the test code to end systems. When the end system is passed an ad
    that is carrying the experiment the system runs embedded Adobe
    Flash code. The code is executed when the ad is passed to the
    user, and does not rely on a user "click" or any other user
    trigger action. The active code interrogates one of two experiment
    controllers by performing a URL fetch. The contents of the fetched
    experiment control URL are a dynamically generated sequence of
    four URLs. These four URLs are the substance of the test setup.

It's worth noting at this point that the Web is a platform for running
remote code, and by browsing you're opting into that, and ad studies
just leverage that behavior.
That's not very accurate, at least under European regulations. It's not "by browsing you're opting into that", it's rather that each website shows you a cookie consent popup, and that's where you provide your consent and opt into receiving various types of cookies, including the ones that make ad-based experiments work. If you reject advertising/customization cookies, of course the ad-based experiment should not work. On top of that, the text asking for consent to these cookies should specify that you will not just be shown customized ads, but that personal information about you will be collected.

By the way, the fact that "these kinds of studies don't really lend themselves
to detailed consent from individual users of the browser" is not a legally valid justification for doing these studies without explicit user consent, at least if they collect personal information and unless they fall into a well specified set of exceptions.

Ciao,

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2r3ElaJiclwhIzAtb4oRBeCWvpGgHqbQr" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 15:39:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2r3ElaJiclwhIzAtb4oRBeCWvpGgHqbQr Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Q4imzk4QWlQt3WWBXRh2CE2fEEbGrCqQK"; protected-headers="v1" From: Iain Learmonth To: pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <628af973-abb5-40f3-637f-b7a1a84c70d0@torproject.org> Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> In-Reply-To: --Q4imzk4QWlQt3WWBXRh2CE2fEEbGrCqQK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eric, On 27/05/2019 14:34, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I have reviewed this document and while I think some of the advice > here is potentially useful, I don't think the recommendations really > match what's current practice or what's practical. As such, I don't > think it should be adopted without quite a bit more work. In my opinion, a lot of current practice is not safe. This document does not aim to set out current practice. It aims to raise the bar on user safety when it comes to performing Internet measurement. > As background, here is a partial list of the kinds of studies that > are commonly done: Thanks for these examples. I see no reason why each of these could not be done safely. I have refrained so far from relating to specific examples to try to keep the guidelines general but an "applied" section may be useful to readers to better understand how to use the guidelines. > I don't really want to get into a long debate about whether any > particular study type is appropriate. Rather, these are common study > types and so if the advice in this document is to be useful, then it > needs to reasonably match what people do -- or at least have a much > stronger argument that people should change what they do than is > offered here. Not necessarily. If it turns out that upon analysis, a lot of studies are dangerous for users, this document should not weaken its guidelines to allow those studies to continue. That would be silly. You can do more dangerous things as long as either you have the consent of the users, or you believe that what you are doing would be expected by the users anyway. Neither of these things removes risk, but ensures that the user is taking an informed risk. > S 2. CONSENT > The text in this draft leans pretty heavily on getting consent, > either direct consent (including all users of the shared network) > or "proxy consent". This version contains a first draft of this section. Perhaps the "implied consent" portion could do with more work. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The experiment uses an online advertisement campaign to d= eliver > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the test code to end systems. When the end system is pass= ed an ad > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is carrying the experiment the system runs embedded = Adobe > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Flash code. The code is executed when the ad is passed to= the > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 user, and does not rely on a user "click" or any other us= er > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 trigger action. The active code interrogates one of two e= xperiment > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 controllers by performing a URL fetch. The contents of th= e fetched > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 experiment control URL are a dynamically generated sequen= ce of > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 four URLs. These four URLs are the substance of the test = setup. This is great until you run on a user machine in a country which has some censorship/monitoring infrastructure in place that has misinterpreted the URL as some proscribed content, landing the user in trouble. At the very least you may have generated costs for the user's bandwidth there, which are uncompensated. > It's worth noting at this point that the Web is a platform for running > remote code, and by browsing you're opting into that, and ad studies > just leverage that behavior. Tell that to the 1,543,235 users that have installed NoScript from Firefox Add-ons. Now you could say that they have opted out and the code won't be run, but the way you've phrased this makes me think that actually you just haven't understood the wider range of Internet users that exist. > As another example, Mozilla's Shield Studies system > (https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Shield/Shield_Studies),is generally > opt-out, with a specific opt-in for when the study collects > more sensitive data: Exactly, when a study would collect more data than a user might expect would be collected, you ask for informed consent. When a study is looking at non-personal information then it is OK to go with implied consent. > There seem to be two core issues here: > - The effects of various changes on the user or the network they are > =C2=A0 on. > - The data collection inherent in doing the study. This is a good split that I had not considered before. > WRT to the first point, as a general matter, modern browsers > auto-update, so the user has generally opted into regularly getting > whatever new code the vendor thinks makes the best browser. Say a mobile phone vendor wanted to test out how its camera was doing. It ships you an auto-update that sends back every photo you've taken to work out things like light levels, noise, and what might need tuned. This is for the purpose of improving the camera. > Similarly, on the topic of data collection, browsers report back quite > a bit of technical data about their behavior. In both Chrome and > Firefox, this is on by default, though you can turn it off. As > suggested by the quote above on Shield studies, many studies just > gather this kind of data (and often data that the browser would > already report back) and Mozilla, at least, has a pretty > well-developed framework for determining what kind of data requires > what level of consent > (https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Data_Collection). The question is not about whether or not you can report back data. The question is about what safeguards you can take to protect your users from harm. You can collect data and report it back safely. We have techniques for doing this in ways that respect users. The only reason to not use them is if you don't actually care about protecting your users. This draft is still in its early stages and there's a lot to flesh out still. This feedback is useful and I'll be incorporating some of the topics, but I feel that you've maybe missed the point of it. Thanks, Iain. --Q4imzk4QWlQt3WWBXRh2CE2fEEbGrCqQK-- --2r3ElaJiclwhIzAtb4oRBeCWvpGgHqbQr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE/ps4MHN0fw3t6AudF4mIfdjVvF0FAlzsBLwACgkQF4mIfdjV vF0egA/+KyArVopJNmtODp3XHUMDD01owcii3YNcxQj3jmhbKiTQL8zHgDTGiKOR 7o7UZ0JQmmzTAZ3U8bCQaMCy2CptKV9kkX2s14w0svkU0sz8nk39tBlbwO85fcIS 84wOq+ZmU+grPGi42JZ6g544QFQS56Btrl3G8I+VTeDA9JvI+kw4X4V8+kKWQ0vr 0HaSM5XYnG5/6sSR1ge7hRuo6rDKB0Lv3HbZDEsj5v95vkztyUqRaqxcVCidduoi K7bGig3n0nlLnzxvsslvtDYapFGJveJG2iTrTt2M75ZngnXVU1pDgDT3vV9A0OXg S8KwDZEtuoDdVvRnYjXuLFbuPh5Zg8MwUgVj80zAJ7Rg7YAf2S0ibQNqi5Xj8l1R RtRUcppa1p69u4povX6I/otZs+58eICLiV2yv4Jxq04SvaYymT+owZNozq72/bi7 nX5A6t/vJI6u/dKTSDjPfTvjtrcOdBKHHigDJclwGf1ykhkotRTfjTgWIuMfz90G ROtqRQTmdBgmaJVWvhr372mYpOvkZDOUUABtUC3EwkwwDkEqiAcXCeg/oxd+k2Na fG+VrOgf53zW0RYsgwaxeNtoXW+3puPfa5A4hU48WnFRv7o4JqsEariYn9clQjIA W6IKDMZ9R1wmdzl09pJmcJbR0ZTuzDXUJF50lB9mckB9Wf/ASGo= =xZzE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2r3ElaJiclwhIzAtb4oRBeCWvpGgHqbQr-- From nobody Mon May 27 08:44:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCADE12015F for ; 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Mon, 27 May 2019 08:44:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> <309616304.24548.1558970601133@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <309616304.24548.1558970601133@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 08:44:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: "pearg@irtf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003e82370589e06def" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 15:44:47 -0000 --0000000000003e82370589e06def Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 8:23 AM Vittorio Bertola < vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> wrote: > > Il 27 maggio 2019 15:34 Eric Rescorla ha scritto: > > > S 2. CONSENT > The text in this draft leans pretty heavily on getting consent, > either direct consent (including all users of the shared network) > or "proxy consent". > > However, many of these kinds of studies don't really lend themselves > to detailed consent from individual users of the browser -- let alone > to from every user on the network they are on. As a concrete example, > ad-type studies don't generally get any kind of consent at all. For > instance, here's the experimental setup for APNIC's DNSSEC > measurements: https://labs.apnic.net/?p=341 > > The experiment uses an online advertisement campaign to deliver > the test code to end systems. When the end system is passed an ad > that is carrying the experiment the system runs embedded Adobe > Flash code. The code is executed when the ad is passed to the > user, and does not rely on a user "click" or any other user > trigger action. The active code interrogates one of two experiment > controllers by performing a URL fetch. The contents of the fetched > experiment control URL are a dynamically generated sequence of > four URLs. These four URLs are the substance of the test setup. > > It's worth noting at this point that the Web is a platform for running > remote code, and by browsing you're opting into that, and ad studies > just leverage that behavior. > > That's not very accurate, at least under European regulations. It's not > "by browsing you're opting into that", it's rather that each website shows > you a cookie consent popup, and that's where you provide your consent and > opt into receiving various types of cookies, including the ones that make > ad-based experiments work. If you reject advertising/customization cookies, > of course the ad-based experiment should not work. > On top of that, the text asking for consent to these cookies should specify > that you will not just be shown customized ads, but that personal > information about you will be collected. > You may be misunderstanding my point here, as these studies don't really rely on tracking cookies. If you're browsing the Web with JS on, your browser will execute whatever code it gets served. That's just the nature of the Web.The reason you use an ad network isn't primarily to take advantage of tracking behavior but rather to cheaply get a large sample of users (note that big sites like Google or Facebook can do this without taking advantage of an ad network). Now, as it happens, ad networks do generally use tracking cookies, and it's sometimes useful to use that for targeting, but in general these studies run fine even in environments where third party cookies are completely disabled, as in Safari ITP or Firefox ETP. By the way, the fact that "these kinds of studies don't really lend > themselves > to detailed consent from individual users of the browser" is not a legally > valid justification for doing these studies without explicit user consent, > at least if they collect personal information and unless they fall into a > well specified set of exceptions. > This isn't really the appropriate place to discuss the legal parameters of various methodologies, especially as they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I would advise people to consult their own legal/compliance departments rather than relying on advice they got on the Internet. -Ekr --0000000000003e82370589e06def Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 8:23 AM Vitto= rio Bertola <vittor= io.bertola@open-xchange.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Il 27 maggio 2019 15:34 Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> ha scritto:


S 2. CONSENT
The text in this draft leans pretty heavily on getting consent,
either direct consent (including all users of the shared network)
or "proxy consent".

However, many of these kinds of studies don't really lend thems= elves
to detailed consent from individual users of the browser -- let alo= ne
to from every user on the network they are on. As a concrete exampl= e,
ad-type studies don't generally get any kind of consent at all.= =C2=A0 For
instance, here's the experimental setup for APNIC's DNSSEC
measurements:=20 https://l= abs.apnic.net/?p=3D341

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The experiment uses an online advertisement campaign = to deliver
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the test code to end systems. When the end system is = passed an ad
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is carrying the experiment the system runs embed= ded Adobe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Flash code. The code is executed when the ad is passe= d to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 user, and does not rely on a user "click" o= r any other user
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 trigger action. The active code interrogates one of t= wo experiment
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 controllers by performing a URL fetch. The contents o= f the fetched
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 experiment control URL are a dynamically generated se= quence of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 four URLs. These four URLs are the substance of the t= est setup.

It's worth noting at this point that the Web is a platform for = running
remote code, and by browsing you're opting into that, and ad st= udies
just leverage that behavior.
That's not very accurate, at least under European regulations. It= 9;s not "by browsing you're opting into that", it's rathe= r that each website shows you a cookie consent popup, and that's where = you provide your consent and opt into receiving various types of cookies, i= ncluding the ones that make ad-based experiments work. If you reject advert= ising/customization cookies, of course the ad-based experiment should not w= ork.
On top of that, the text asking for consent to these cookies= should specify that you will not just be shown customized ads, but that pe= rsonal information about you will be collected.

You may be misunderstan= ding my point here, as these studies don't really rely on tracking cook= ies. If you're browsing the Web with JS on, your browser will execute w= hatever code it gets served. That's just the nature of the Web.The reas= on you use an ad network isn't primarily to take advantage of tracking = behavior but rather to cheaply get a large sample of users (note that big s= ites like Google or Facebook can do this without taking advantage of an ad = network). Now, as it happens, ad networks do generally use tracking cookies= , and it's sometimes useful to use that for targeting, but in general t= hese studies run fine even in environments where third party cookies are co= mpletely disabled, as in Safari ITP or Firefox ETP.


By the way, the fact that "these kinds of studies don't really = lend themselves
to detailed consent from individual users of the browser" is no= t a legally valid justification for doing these studies without explicit us= er consent, at least if they collect personal information and unless they f= all into a well specified set of exceptions.

This isn't really the appropri= ate place to discuss the legal parameters of various methodologies, especia= lly as they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I would advise people t= o consult their own legal/compliance departments rather than relying on adv= ice they got on the Internet.

-Ekr
--0000000000003e82370589e06def-- From nobody Mon May 27 09:14:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E6F12016C for ; Mon, 27 May 2019 09:14:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wsNM6aAykQaQ for ; Mon, 27 May 2019 09:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEF44120074 for ; Mon, 27 May 2019 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id m15so11855305lfh.4 for ; Mon, 27 May 2019 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9L8ynu6EkvjnaUxSPWBkTP7yv0Q5upJJum7HkNAesjM=; b=kWGZ/YjoggzUORp+a92lw4JMpysN/Z92ADUwQ3A/2Alc/jSWjQ3o10Ysv0s2GkcdVo gr7ZRTzZ4IkJls4BeorjUx5dmp2DZvlOO+xR2DOXTKdNorWvUiPQA8wf65lhgqwBaV6n yxf4dD0n8fsoLpydfxty6cLo+xqoJ4XxAAJCPeQ1P5Q0CXztNUEyEVTdEQxhfqMn1lkD cgdNkhiOn/hPdYHr0lfUzCAkE+6ZmsIn3vNUOHHU8OuN1J6u7rQE48F8ckER4HABSYAX 8h6sMQ7BWMYBVvK2mwgKHQSdYw5TKLjuCnKtpz0JMFyo3sjoaEMlGXfoK9WgX+yLBJjw ot0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9L8ynu6EkvjnaUxSPWBkTP7yv0Q5upJJum7HkNAesjM=; b=L/C1gNAnquIgz0XPOtOxsRIjSwcL2V+ONkiL2MCqW3WgE6HpqoTzj6t3aGHBZXg1s4 eBkAIjfy+tssr0v9tiNpqXrIr5VBCYGNNX3vCX9OykML55KzAgQW/HR8GC/gWe57ePPo VCXNpcnaY2dA1EOnJWjeA254iCasKNn57kDvqNDMAft1g9PcITrFu+v6KsRYV+Vt2upG +kGnDYVT9B9uPdmd4IDzUCAedYWpTl5ruJ58osqrUnbwT+52b6LSRpGnKtjTmP5cgbM7 HCJoXpJJK/ZdCCdaAChVeqEOLAi6L8yXnCfufQ7fHud9ADfkqDn0Do+HpKOp+K2CJb8g Ur/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV/ZJeu1OOlUGsKaQi88Jc2aIBGMzk1Og8aB5/enX1GyoOoRoxe 3TISpOy2bS1LFZ/FjRi477LlMkJAsJacgTT+moQkSg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxYwErvbF/3NOWFS+x5LPUyR5HIhb5hAo+WDNeTuHf5AyAYUH5IdhPC9iktLYjtk5uGjIMIC2d/qIogsezYQjQ= X-Received: by 2002:a19:9c8f:: with SMTP id f137mr61080271lfe.94.1558973672809; Mon, 27 May 2019 09:14:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> <628af973-abb5-40f3-637f-b7a1a84c70d0@torproject.org> In-Reply-To: <628af973-abb5-40f3-637f-b7a1a84c70d0@torproject.org> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 09:13:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Iain Learmonth Cc: pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb7a270589e0d765" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 16:14:37 -0000 --000000000000fb7a270589e0d765 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 8:39 AM Iain Learmonth wrote: > Hi Eric, > > On 27/05/2019 14:34, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > I have reviewed this document and while I think some of the advice > > here is potentially useful, I don't think the recommendations really > > match what's current practice or what's practical. As such, I don't > > think it should be adopted without quite a bit more work. > > In my opinion, a lot of current practice is not safe. This document does > not aim to set out current practice. It aims to raise the bar on user > safety when it comes to performing Internet measurement. > Yes, I appreciate that. However, as written I don't think it captures those boundaries well and so is not very useful. > I don't really want to get into a long debate about whether any > > particular study type is appropriate. Rather, these are common study > > types and so if the advice in this document is to be useful, then it > > needs to reasonably match what people do -- or at least have a much > > stronger argument that people should change what they do than is > > offered here. > > Not necessarily. If it turns out that upon analysis, a lot of studies > are dangerous for users, this document should not weaken its guidelines > to allow those studies to continue. That would be silly. > Hence the text you are directly quoting above. "or at least have a much stronger argument that people should change what they do than is offered here. Neither the draft as written, nor your response, seems to me to offer any such argument. > The experiment uses an online advertisement campaign to deliver > > the test code to end systems. When the end system is passed an ad > > that is carrying the experiment the system runs embedded Adobe > > Flash code. The code is executed when the ad is passed to the > > user, and does not rely on a user "click" or any other user > > trigger action. The active code interrogates one of two experiment > > controllers by performing a URL fetch. The contents of the fetched > > experiment control URL are a dynamically generated sequence of > > four URLs. These four URLs are the substance of the test setup. > > This is great until you run on a user machine in a country which has > some censorship/monitoring infrastructure in place that has > misinterpreted the URL as some proscribed content, landing the user in > trouble. > Well, this isn't my study, so I'm not going to account for how it's constructed, but it seems like you're missing the context here that this is served as part of an ad, and that the way that ads work *in general* is to load content from remote servers. It's not clear to me why you think that the URL that the study checks is somehow more likely to be interpreted as proscribed than the ad content that would normally be served. With that said, we also do studies where the browser loads specific URLs we provide it, and we do try to make them innocuous. > At the very least you may have generated costs for the user's bandwidth > there, which are uncompensated. > Again, this is served via an ad network, so the user would be loading some other ad that used up random amounts of bandwidth instead of the ad that runs the study. This seems like a pretty weak argument. > > It's worth noting at this point that the Web is a platform for running > > remote code, and by browsing you're opting into that, and ad studies > > just leverage that behavior. > > Tell that to the 1,543,235 users that have installed NoScript from > Firefox Add-ons. Now you could say that they have opted out and the code > won't be run, but the way you've phrased this makes me think that > actually you just haven't understood the wider range of Internet users > that exist. > I'm quite aware of NoScript (you do know that I work for Mozilla, right?) but this is a trivially small fraction of the browsing user base. As a general matter, the Web is a platform for executing code sent by the server, which of course users can disable if they choose. > WRT to the first point, as a general matter, modern browsers > > auto-update, so the user has generally opted into regularly getting > > whatever new code the vendor thinks makes the best browser. > > Say a mobile phone vendor wanted to test out how its camera was doing. > It ships you an auto-update that sends back every photo you've taken to > work out things like light levels, noise, and what might need tuned. > This is for the purpose of improving the camera. > I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that the browser vendor -- or a mobile phone vendor -- can just send malicious code to the user (and for avoidance of doubt I would consider reporting every photo to be malicious). Rather, what I'm saying is that browsers already do auto-updates, and so it's not useful to have a much stricter set of rules for experiments/measurements that are delivered to some users than vendors do for code they would deliver to all users as part of an update. I.e., it's not that useful to focus on studies rather than on overall behavior. This draft is still in its early stages and there's a lot to flesh out > still. > Understood. I don't think at this early stage it's ready for adoption. Once you've fleshed it out, I'll be happy to take another look. -Ekr --000000000000fb7a270589e0d765 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 8:39 AM Iain = Learmonth <irl@torproject.org&= gt; wrote:
Hi Er= ic,

On 27/05/2019 14:34, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> I have reviewed this document and while I think some of the advice
> here is potentially useful, I don't think the recommendations real= ly
> match what's current practice or what's practical. As such, I = don't
> think it should be adopted without quite a bit more work.

In my opinion, a lot of current practice is not safe. This document does not aim to set out current practice. It aims to raise the bar on user
safety when it comes to performing Internet measurement.

Yes, I appreciate that. However, as written I don't t= hink it captures those
boundaries well and so is not very useful.=


> I don't really want to get into a long debate about whether any > particular study type is appropriate. Rather, these are common study > types and so if the advice in this document is to be useful, then it > needs to reasonably match what people do -- or at least have a much > stronger argument that people should change what they do than is
> offered here.

Not necessarily. If it turns out that upon analysis, a lot of studies
are dangerous for users, this document should not weaken its guidelines
to allow those studies to continue. That would be silly.

Hence the text you are directly quoting above.
=
"or at least have a much stronger argument that people = should change what they do than is offered here.

N= either the draft as written, nor your response, seems to me to offer any su= ch argument.
=C2=A0


> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The experiment uses an online advertisement campaign to = deliver
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the test code to end systems. When the end system is pas= sed an ad
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is carrying the experiment the system runs embedded= Adobe
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Flash code. The code is executed when the ad is passed t= o the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 user, and does not rely on a user "click" or a= ny other user
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 trigger action. The active code interrogates one of two = experiment
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 controllers by performing a URL fetch. The contents of t= he fetched
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 experiment control URL are a dynamically generated seque= nce of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 four URLs. These four URLs are the substance of the test= setup.

This is great until you run on a user machine in a country which has
some censorship/monitoring infrastructure in place that has
misinterpreted the URL as some proscribed content, landing the user in
trouble.

Well, this isn't my study,= so I'm not going to account for how it's constructed,
bu= t it seems like you're missing the context here that this is served
as part of an ad, and that the way that ads work *in general* is to = load
content from remote servers. It's not clear to me why yo= u think that
the URL that the study checks is somehow more likely= to be interpreted
as proscribed than the ad content that would n= ormally be served.

With that said, we also do = studies where the browser loads specific URLs
we provide it, and = we do try to make them innocuous.

=C2=A0
=
At the very least you may have generated costs for the user's bandwidth=
there, which are uncompensated.

Again, = this is served via an ad network, so the user would be loading
so= me other ad that used up random amounts of bandwidth instead of
t= he ad that runs the study. This seems like a pretty weak argument.


=C2=A0
> It's worth noting at this point that the Web is a platform for run= ning
> remote code, and by browsing you're opting into that, and ad studi= es
> just leverage that behavior.

Tell that to the 1,543,235 users that have installed NoScript from
Firefox Add-ons. Now you could say that they have opted out and the code won't be run, but the way you've phrased this makes me think that actually you just haven't understood the wider range of Internet users<= br> that exist.

I'm quite aware of NoSc= ript (you do know that I work for Mozilla, right?)
but this is a= trivially small fraction of the browsing user base. As a general
matter, the Web is a platform for executing code sent by the server,
=
which of course users can disable if they choose.


> WRT to the first point, as a general matter, modern browsers
> auto-update, so the user has generally opted into regularly getting > whatever new code the vendor thinks makes the best browser.

Say a mobile phone vendor wanted to test out how its camera was doing.
It ships you an auto-update that sends back every photo you've taken to=
work out things like light levels, noise, and what might need tuned.
This is for the purpose of improving the camera.

<= /div>
I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not saying tha= t the browser
vendor=C2=A0 -- or a mobile phone vendor -- can jus= t send malicious code to
the user (and for avoidance of doubt I w= ould consider reporting every photo
to be malicious).
<= br>
Rather, what I'm saying is that browsers already do auto-= updates, and so it's not
useful to have a much stricter set o= f rules for experiments/measurements
that are delivered to some u= sers than vendors do for code they would deliver
to all users as = part of an update. I.e., it's not that useful to focus on studies
=
rather than on overall behavior.



This draft is still in its early stages and there's a lot to flesh out<= br> still.

Understood. I don't think a= t this early stage it's ready for adoption. Once
you've f= leshed it out, I'll be happy to take another look.

-Ekr

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Tue, 28 May 2019 10:18:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 10:18:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "pearg@irtf.org" Message-ID: <598802247.25971.1559031534492@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> <309616304.24548.1558970601133@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 08:19:00 -0000

Il 27 maggio 2019 17:44 Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> ha scritto:




On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 8:23 AM Vittorio Bertola < vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> wrote:
On top of that, the text asking for consent to these cookies should specify that you will not just be shown customized ads, but that personal information about you will be collected.

You may be misunderstanding my point here, as these studies don't really rely on tracking cookies. If you're browsing the Web with JS on, your browser will execute whatever code it gets served. That's just the nature of the Web.
Ok, let's see it from this viewpoint then: the fact that I visit a web page that executes code (client and/or server side) is not a valid authorization for that web page to collect any personal information about me. If it were so, then no consent request for data collection would ever be necessary on the web. Instead, whenever the web page wants to record personal information about me, it needs to ask for explicit and specific consent (again, this is true in the European framework, which is anyway the model for most other privacy regulations).

Privacy protection and consent management works by purpose: if I access a web site with the objective of watching a video, you may imply consent to any data processing activity which is strictly necessary to make me watch the video, but not to other activities such as running your tests (if they gather personal information). That would require another, separate and optional, expression of consent.

All in all, this problem mostly goes away if the data gathered by your tests is anonymized or at least pseudonymized in a way that makes it impossible to associate it back with the actual person (IP address included). This is advice that can be given to testers, and it would be interesting to understand, from your experience, if there is any reason why these tests cannot always be made in anonymized form.
This isn't really the appropriate place to discuss the legal parameters of various methodologies, especially as they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
True, but if the I*TF wants to provide advice on how to make Internet tests without harming privacy, one would expect it to set the bar at least at the same level of the best privacy protection rules that are currently in force around the world.

Ciao,

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
From nobody Fri May 31 02:08:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B16C1200B2 for ; Fri, 31 May 2019 02:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sinodun.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xxA0Q0RebopZ for ; Fri, 31 May 2019 02:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61EE3120052 for ; Fri, 31 May 2019 02:08:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sinodun.com ; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=/Tl5ZK+sRdT/FTj6aTXvDSWN19yqWiv/FvKwGv4o6rw=; b=HhwrGWfLwWcPYTXcg5GDDV0tOi EL7coijM2SFgma6iU6wBsU1AGY8y6KfpCRWtOc2om6LAWHsPU7/5yBeE7GhX1rfqFQyjFjb1JG2DU jNCx4vBIRcmZXihwA0geyv1cTIA1wxQTzmBnlhlSUs3WdPpTlY7xiB++/+fE49EP8yB5SpIjR6Tb8 9vpEKEta15/KYTppT0XrsoAMBxOdgdU+wQyllMMr5qgDSI5rtl29qEY0CFtYYGBSGbSMaMJmFhxnY EvJJk4EbKSx3WoVQzpDIhkq4qwJ7ByaX6fQteSsgxPREV86rHKRxecxGfKT2C36ghPLx8B87rFWlW DnLTkcvw==; Received: from [2001:b98:204:102:fffa::41e7] (port=54258) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hWdWV-0007X1-I2; Fri, 31 May 2019 10:08:31 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Message-Id: <5A71A8C5-6A2D-4D98-8F6C-7776495D755F@sinodun.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FAB7BFE8-6746-4830-8B11-1B074C333B4D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 10:08:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: pearg@irtf.org To: Eric Rescorla , Iain Learmonth References: <155800230363.19745.1496619794666703625.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6d285cf5-4c38-b6ef-66dd-a0fd1c207268@torproject.org> <628af973-abb5-40f3-637f-b7a1a84c70d0@torproject.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for adoption: draft-learmonth-pearg-safe-internet-measurement-02.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 09:08:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FAB7BFE8-6746-4830-8B11-1B074C333B4D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 27 May 2019, at 17:13, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 8:39 AM Iain Learmonth > wrote: > Hi Eric, >=20 > On 27/05/2019 14:34, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > I have reviewed this document and while I think some of the advice > > here is potentially useful, I don't think the recommendations really > > match what's current practice or what's practical. As such, I don't > > think it should be adopted without quite a bit more work. >=20 > In my opinion, a lot of current practice is not safe. This document = does > not aim to set out current practice. It aims to raise the bar on user > safety when it comes to performing Internet measurement. >=20 > Yes, I appreciate that. However, as written I don't think it captures = those > boundaries well and so is not very useful. >=20 >=20 > > I don't really want to get into a long debate about whether any > > particular study type is appropriate. Rather, these are common study > > types and so if the advice in this document is to be useful, then it > > needs to reasonably match what people do -- or at least have a much > > stronger argument that people should change what they do than is > > offered here. >=20 > Not necessarily. If it turns out that upon analysis, a lot of studies > are dangerous for users, this document should not weaken its = guidelines > to allow those studies to continue. That would be silly. >=20 > Hence the text you are directly quoting above. >=20 > "or at least have a much stronger argument that people should change = what they do than is offered here. >=20 > Neither the draft as written, nor your response, seems to me to offer = any such argument. >=20 I=E2=80=99d like to support addressing these concerns in the way that = Iain proposed i.e. with a clear separation in the document: - Retain a =E2=80=98Recommendations' section which remains close to a = description of desired behaviour for Safe Measurement practices - Add a =E2=80=98Current Practices=E2=80=99 section which can cite = studies such as the ones mentioned with the analysis of if and why they = fall short of the recommendations and the specific risks to users due to = that difference. Where possible suggest modifications to mitigate those = risks. I agree it would be useful for the document to capture acknowledged or = existing practical limitations in more detail and these can be reference = from the recommendations. However I would argue the primary goal should = remain providing strong standalone guidance on best practices for these = and future studies.=20 Sara. =20= --Apple-Mail=_FAB7BFE8-6746-4830-8B11-1B074C333B4D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 27 May 2019, at 17:13, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:



On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 8:39 AM Iain = Learmonth <irl@torproject.org> wrote:
Hi Eric,

On 27/05/2019 14:34, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> I have reviewed this document and while I think some of the = advice
> here is potentially useful, I don't think the recommendations = really
> match what's current practice or what's practical. As such, I = don't
> think it should be adopted without quite a bit more work.

In my opinion, a lot of current practice is not safe. This document = does
not aim to set out current practice. It aims to raise the bar on user
safety when it comes to performing Internet measurement.

Yes, I appreciate that. However, as written I don't think it = captures those
boundaries well and so is not very = useful.


> I don't really want to get into a long debate about whether any
> particular study type is appropriate. Rather, these are common = study
> types and so if the advice in this document is to be useful, then = it
> needs to reasonably match what people do -- or at least have a = much
> stronger argument that people should change what they do than is
> offered here.

Not necessarily. If it turns out that upon analysis, a lot of studies
are dangerous for users, this document should not weaken its = guidelines
to allow those studies to continue. That would be silly.

Hence the text you are directly quoting above.

"or at least have a much = stronger argument that people should change what they do than is offered = here.

Neither = the draft as written, nor your response, seems to me to offer any such = argument.


I=E2=80=99d like to support addressing these concerns in the = way that Iain proposed i.e. with a clear separation in the = document:

- = Retain a =E2=80=98Recommendations' section which remains close to a = description of desired behaviour for Safe Measurement = practices

- = Add a =E2=80=98Current Practices=E2=80=99 section which can cite studies = such as the ones mentioned with the analysis of if and why they fall = short of the recommendations and the specific risks to users due to that = difference. Where possible suggest modifications to mitigate those = risks.

I agree = it would be useful for the document to capture acknowledged or existing = practical limitations in more detail and these can be reference from the = recommendations. However I would argue the primary goal should remain = providing strong standalone guidance on best practices for these and = future studies. 

Sara.  
= --Apple-Mail=_FAB7BFE8-6746-4830-8B11-1B074C333B4D--