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Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:25:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:25:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 15:25:45 -0000 > Il 13/07/2020 20:46 internet-drafts@ietf.org ha scritto: > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Before I forget - since we said we'd discuss it on the list - I have an idea to address the ongoing disagreement on the meaning of "censorship". We could replace the initial definition of censorship with a brief discussion on the fact that there is no agreement in the I*TF community on what it means, and that different people use the term, in broader or narrower terms, to identify: 1. any blocking of content 2. any blocking of content except when done for technical and network security reasons (botnets, malware etc) 3. only the blocking of political content opposing a country's regime So for a significant part of the Internet community these techniques can be used for legitimate purposes other than censorship, and this should be acknowledged from the beginning, agreeing that not everyone using these techniques is a censor or accepts to be depicted like that. Then, it seems to me (though I haven't gone through the draft checking each and every reference) that almost all examples in the draft relate to authoritarian countries and to the narrow definition #3. This leaves us with a number of possibilities: - complete the survey with examples of the other uses of these techniques, while mentioning that these are not considered censorship by everyone; - only limit the survey to the examples that fall in #3, as these are unanimously considered to be censorship; - something in the middle, e.g. leave some examples of "non-political censorship" (such as the EU examples at the end of page 16) but mention that they are not generally considered to be cases of censorship. I would be happy to work on text, but first I'd like to see if this approach would make sense for everyone. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Aug 4 08:39:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662A53A087E for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:39:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.037 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.037 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VO3Sq4qYpT7n for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68C393A07E7 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id b14so37062542qkn.4 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:39:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=G3DU9OWjKQ6N3Bq7aC8lrp2z4uT9tf2zCcfAN23X3gY=; b=rVwr6T9bmUge30X17JihnG3hJlWI3zm7lsdKNFr+ZOXXPr/lhsbuoujwodK4HQ/Ro+ XyXG72B08xP693h4IcHdrMurbAVHcGhZ3nOlF2ktDlayCW67UqZ71pPk+3vH4tCQ0zuF 1NZXVdN1xgF1RWwTfd8N+DVgwfU/xVRfx+IIs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=G3DU9OWjKQ6N3Bq7aC8lrp2z4uT9tf2zCcfAN23X3gY=; b=A0AT5KvKU+WF1ru/Zxoe1cyCBIagG0GEGCFWxpS0uJTbCYykpVq97hEpj5wYjoCyBK Co8nwhtSRPWyxW5xqLOTtQaLeFe/ZSFOxvhdDrUs2AyNKYAg3y43BBYZPdHC0LDsXntw RBxjKKaWT8e/uuN3p0UDE6JuHUjbTBVT/KXbWr6mVlABtyzYryrvzwof1irlojJBiHwP VWHtaE33ZOzmQEnvl0VmIuJH/IOGp1itcxGMG6uSK4w1Hg4eQ0Y/lP7qYqkTOgLGvNmy C8lYHYfgQRewW2YvTjdflBpHrOqe+0XHIXip8tqvfmhVW9UUM81jb1WHHcRkDvjIQTnd JNQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kl32KLxeDzyMwZ3UUPeyW9DMXjzbqmj+kTwvsF+atfoYbJFpT KxGWVdUtUmkv/YXHZob3PYCLedAxog4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxqj+GmRWmk2wKzrUB6Z4B/73qrNp452HgApU4+bVRRbY8TNpffDOjkzILF4dJf558GF9FmFA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:132d:: with SMTP id p13mr22820857qkj.161.1596555539181; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i7sm21211561qtb.27.2020.08.04.08.38.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:38:58 -0700 (PDT) To: pearg@irtf.org References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: <57fefee9-f3d5-cf5f-3980-2b589c0aa2e9@cdt.org> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:38:57 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:79.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/79.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 15:39:01 -0000 On 8/4/20 11:25 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > So for a significant part of the Internet community these techniques can be used for legitimate purposes other than censorship, and this should be acknowledged from the beginning, agreeing that not everyone using these techniques is a censor or accepts to be depicted like that. It's been said in this thread that censorship can be legitimate or illegitimate. It shouldn't be the aim of this draft to talk about the censors at all, nor how they'd like to be depicted. The draft is about the techniques. -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Tue Aug 4 09:15:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B094A3A0ADC for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:15:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GOwMtbMz2r1H for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE4D63A0A12 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 212.76.239.56 Received: from [192.168.0.233] (cable-212.76.239.56.coditel.net [212.76.239.56]) (Authenticated sender: amelia@andersdotter.cc) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3355160007 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:15:17 +0000 (UTC) To: pearg@irtf.org References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Amelia Andersdotter Autocrypt: addr=amelia@andersdotter.cc; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABtCxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPokCVwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5buQINBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABiQI8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Reply-To: amelia.ietf@andersdotter.cc Message-ID: <02994f3a-c6c1-9a5f-5085-e1f2c6ea9591@andersdotter.cc> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:13:06 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 16:15:23 -0000 On 2020-08-04 17:25, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > - something in the middle, e.g. leave some examples of "non-political c= ensorship" (such as the EU examples at the end of page 16) but mention th= at they are not generally considered to be cases of censorship. Pretty much all of those examples have been extremely contentious precisely because they risk over-blocking and are rarely accompanied by robust due-process mechanisms. So much so that the Council of Europe Human Rights Commissioner at one point in 2014 specifically addressed the unsuitability of governments dumping responsibility for censorship on private sector parties in order to avoid accountability for solving underlying problems of crime or injustice. A large part of the reason I believe that this draft is important is that there have been a lot of efforts, especially in jurisdictions where I have done a lot of work (broadly European Union countries), to privatise assessments of the morality, legality or suitability of internet-accessible resources, in a way that specifically removes public accountability and foreseeability. The fact that governments have acted in a way which shifts accountability/responsibility on to actors who are doing important work here at I*TF means that it's important to have a framework for the I*TF to deal with that accountability. The right way forward is then *not* to say that specifically the situations where such accountability and responsibility has been shifted to the private sector, are those situations which we should be excluding from this work (I don't think). But the intent here is not to discourage anyone from following locally applicable laws and regulations.=C2=A0 best regards, Amelia > I would be happy to work on text, but first I'd like to see if this app= roach would make sense for everyone. > --=20 ^\...~...~...~...~...~.../^ Amelia Andersdotter Director of Strategic Initiatives, CENTR www.centr.org ^\...~...~...~...~...~.../^ From nobody Tue Aug 4 09:59:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698FA3A0CA5 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:59:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:59:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:59:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Mallory Knodel , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <1761878407.1099.1596560345496@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <57fefee9-f3d5-cf5f-3980-2b589c0aa2e9@cdt.org> References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <57fefee9-f3d5-cf5f-3980-2b589c0aa2e9@cdt.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 16:59:09 -0000 > Il 04/08/2020 17:38 Mallory Knodel ha scritto: > > > On 8/4/20 11:25 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > So for a significant part of the Internet community these techniques can be used for legitimate purposes other than censorship, and this should be acknowledged from the beginning, agreeing that not everyone using these techniques is a censor or accepts to be depicted like that. > > It's been said in this thread that censorship can be legitimate or > illegitimate. But not in the draft, as far as I can recall. > It shouldn't be the aim of this draft to talk about the censors at all, > nor how they'd like to be depicted. The draft is about the techniques. The point is whether we can ever come to consensus on this draft and turn it into an RFC, which in my opinion is going to be hard if some IETF participants have to accept to be labelled as "censors" for using the techniques in the draft to, say, block access to phishing websites, or execute a court order. On Amelia's comment - I agree, but my observation is related to types of blocked content, not to who is blocking them. Of course political censorship is still political censorship even if private parties do it, and in Italy there have been troubling cases of Facebook closing down the pages of legitimate (though personally disgusting) political parties without any kind of public scrutiny. Also, it makes sense to request accountability in any use of these techniques, to make sure that they are not surreptitiously used for political purposes. Still, this does not mean that blocking malware is censorship. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Aug 4 10:02:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0AF3A0C81 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.037 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.037 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G96k4tGJzZDx for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCF423A0C9D for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id b14so37334415qkn.4 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:02:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=McLnid9Mqjrd/w9bnpHJjOQl9G45+l6SpUktVq/Duhs=; b=dQ8v78l4vXKUZgALMeMqKcA532HK5K4R4FaXOYsrF70wVHMocpONxIUXh6GMnoJq8+ w4GREHhOoH7CgW0vJKch2YAKchRYtK7SNfqoTHOusQUCgPSffLOZ/4WxhMAXoB3RQhJH FkdfC/Ban2ioJfA/wbQ/Ofoj6v4fgc99qXi4M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=McLnid9Mqjrd/w9bnpHJjOQl9G45+l6SpUktVq/Duhs=; b=trf1OHJOtu4R+3aNgqOT0nBeP9rkdjmR/fLevqiAJJ95O6xfBBAgJ1jb63wX9vY0qG 7RHPoRZB0xdmclFh1QNpkiValWjNOSg3uOOVmdWaiFOkZQ6uG7FbW6OdmJCMB081WcdQ /9BrJt0RNOCbvK3gZbN7wn6dAC2nkAe0x6Va+KJjl8vW7UOmatjRlqxz7QB4NWgT/eun HLn9TPJoSMsXuG0i2VQdM82sDTAgxGZfWacBqUMxOYMRY0FSVBmgXh0qkayMjinerlcO PLXj9c/D3eAd/+k0Jb0th2nSg0ZrfNis90SjxnVGiD7EPDEDvVqrpdmetsQP83iqqiDo 4WDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533iQB4SXkhSExDs3C3o4U1aZ4eBD/ufvO6/+P8HYmFYgayS6P2X sv7YmhsQRafLXo8lKZINJXn4bZq2ciM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy4Gwb4m5kx6HhnyMRuAG8Dtl1QYfNAsVqv33eQhG4QcBLHtNbRFMQvwYRdS/kjFPUkoqImjQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:13c4:: with SMTP id g4mr22544134qkl.142.1596560557586; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c70sm19969212qke.109.2020.08.04.10.02.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:02:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Vittorio Bertola , pearg@irtf.org References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <57fefee9-f3d5-cf5f-3980-2b589c0aa2e9@cdt.org> <1761878407.1099.1596560345496@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: <9cb6c3e0-ff18-3e21-aa79-5981bfac6c4a@cdt.org> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:02:35 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:79.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/79.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1761878407.1099.1596560345496@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:02:40 -0000 On 8/4/20 12:59 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> Il 04/08/2020 17:38 Mallory Knodel ha scritto: >> >> >> On 8/4/20 11:25 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> >>> So for a significant part of the Internet community these techniques can be used for legitimate purposes other than censorship, and this should be acknowledged from the beginning, agreeing that not everyone using these techniques is a censor or accepts to be depicted like that. >> It's been said in this thread that censorship can be legitimate or >> illegitimate. > But not in the draft, as far as I can recall. It's out of scope to define censorship from scratch, and it references a wikipedia page that says this very thing in the first para. >> It shouldn't be the aim of this draft to talk about the censors at all, >> nor how they'd like to be depicted. The draft is about the techniques. > The point is whether we can ever come to consensus on this draft and turn it into an RFC, which in my opinion is going to be hard if some IETF participants have to accept to be labelled as "censors" for using the techniques in the draft to, say, block access to phishing websites, or execute a court order. Consensus isn't required for an IRTF RFC. Again, the draft doesn't label censors; it's a draft about techniques. -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Tue Aug 4 10:15:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954B63A0DAC for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:15:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bmfvr9gy0Vq6 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC41E3A0D9E for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id v12so14134343ljc.10 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:15:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/Vs4+yhLdVCn+spAB5Ivt8/mXyU45rnmzvaQlvBY1Bo=; b=1qMJxZPdFo8cDnFqAegZV13LB6/eHXgjtHA4QkItNCdAEdPYW2IZs+e8p+Ev3CFtcb bE8e+qAHW6/6pRJmvdHkg8rgDGrKbUtw4fjNNRXsk4fdilnH0oxqf+nxM4+7zTfgNuid lluxHF3VCqsvI6j+O2P0sdpVEK/gJUWR98Tewje6+NC8C/SUj5QZkX2xB+kWxrpCzGK7 OCyaC+PAtO/30aXaVipnxL28XmfxnNP1oLFUr54OnruUtUzLClEcs4E01LMlV9YZ0aHk iIbY5+mU6P/TY+5pj3ztJ5++XUYUDJAUmr6Tl7NdGKQwkKICatI126G9joOCwPTJMP9N G18Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/Vs4+yhLdVCn+spAB5Ivt8/mXyU45rnmzvaQlvBY1Bo=; b=fnAqiZVW7hifq7M46yypWT2C3ZEumRm6JmQMrDcfS7Oow+bxQQkZibGFBIkpHG9udb FEPjp/DiinxPGTVy6MxKEwLW9ZAsos7oIu2qnmxXuRfBRiqT2nMfk/UNNAGqzYTNpuuZ nEt8cN71wD2uZgPtnEIX5jBQN4L6OBoCW2SsyR9kgYSsHQm3G0fNRATtWOFjQgwE9ezj X7KqkbbM40EsLVB/gj22dRjl526VvDQZlax4Q0NjPzZzKan50l4gd6xG1vtBAz87wvyj GH8EuFHeYKTPKCb2s2SZzOc5bWYF1pCmYdLpNyETt/cS/Y1mXO4KkFE5WRMwWITWRVWs Zdww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tyZn98OCUQl8ci25Y+ePUeL1jgWUP7R/qjMZXDiFKxdh/PysY 3aNnTKsqj2i9I2TnUupSPp+Es+5IX5v+mJvVGuP+jg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzJE6Ro5xkbcNdrSMih9t0feGilCAyJ/Wuf+z+6eUVBX7scU1yCT0CwXv6ADzocqXOj2Wb1PljfhVh48xQaj4A= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9b4a:: with SMTP id o10mr10698628ljj.199.1596561344818; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:15:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <57fefee9-f3d5-cf5f-3980-2b589c0aa2e9@cdt.org> <1761878407.1099.1596560345496@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1761878407.1099.1596560345496@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:15:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Mallory Knodel , pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2184105ac1067f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:15:49 -0000 --000000000000d2184105ac1067f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:59 AM Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > > Il 04/08/2020 17:38 Mallory Knodel ha scritto: > > > > > > On 8/4/20 11:25 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > > > So for a significant part of the Internet community these techniques > can be used for legitimate purposes other than censorship, and this should > be acknowledged from the beginning, agreeing that not everyone using these > techniques is a censor or accepts to be depicted like that. > > > > It's been said in this thread that censorship can be legitimate or > > illegitimate. > > But not in the draft, as far as I can recall. > > > It shouldn't be the aim of this draft to talk about the censors at all, > > nor how they'd like to be depicted. The draft is about the techniques. > > The point is whether we can ever come to consensus on this draft and turn > it into an RFC, which in my opinion is going to be hard if some IETF > participants have to accept to be labelled as "censors" for using the > techniques in the draft to, say, block access to phishing websites, or > execute a court order. > As I said before, it's useful here to distinguish between blocking that is with the consent of the user (albeit sometimes in an opt-out fashion as with safe browsing) and that which is imposed on the user without their consent. I don't see a problem with calling the latter censorship, even if the content being blocked is non-political. -Ekr --000000000000d2184105ac1067f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:59 AM Vittor= io Bertola <vittorio.bertola=3D40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


> Il 04/08/2020 17:38 Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org> ha scritto:
>
>=C2=A0
> On 8/4/20 11:25 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>
> > So for a significant part of the Internet community these techniq= ues can be used for legitimate purposes other than censorship, and this sho= uld be acknowledged from the beginning, agreeing that not everyone using th= ese techniques is a censor or accepts to be depicted like that.
>
> It's been said in this thread that censorship can be legitimate or=
> illegitimate.

But not in the draft, as far as I can recall.

> It shouldn't be the aim of this draft to talk about the censors at= all,
> nor how they'd like to be depicted. The draft is about the techniq= ues.

The point is whether we can ever come to consensus on this draft and turn i= t into an RFC, which in my opinion is going to be hard if some IETF partici= pants have to accept to be labelled as "censors" for using the te= chniques in the draft to, say, block access to phishing websites, or execut= e a court order.

As I said before, it&#= 39;s useful here to distinguish between blocking that is with the consent o= f the user (albeit sometimes in an opt-out fashion as with safe browsing) a= nd that which is imposed on the user without their consent. I don't see= a problem with calling the latter censorship, even if the content being bl= ocked is non-political.

-Ekr

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client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CAEC3A0FE8 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id A490BA0272; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 20:59:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9A3E6EC0B7D; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 20:58:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 20:58:31 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <20200804185831.GA17517@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 18.04 (bionic) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 18:59:41 -0000 On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 05:25:41PM +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote a message of 31 lines which said: > 1. any blocking of content > 2. any blocking of content except when done for technical and network security reasons (botnets, malware etc) > 3. only the blocking of political content opposing a country's regime I don't think that anyone, at the IETF or elsewhere, would label "censorship" "any blocking of content". If I install uBlock on my browser (or Pi Hole on the network), it is clearly not censorship if half of the content of a Web page is blocked. Censorship is when a third party blocks content that the sender wants to send and the recipient wants to receive. Your case 2 is in the grey area since it can be said that the recipient does not want to receive malware. Also, case 3 is way too narrow. If content is blocked for business reasons, it is no longer censorship? > accepts to be depicted like that. I agree with Mallory here: people cannot choose how they are depicted, it would be too easy. > Then, it seems to me (though I haven't gone through the draft > checking each and every reference) that almost all examples in the > draft relate to authoritarian countries Several examples (may be only a minority) are for the European Union. Most members of the EU cannot probably be described as "authoritarian". > - only limit the survey to the examples that fall in #3, as these > are unanimously considered to be censorship; Not even that case is unanimous. The chinese governement does not call its blocking "censorship" but use nice words like "maintaning harmony". From nobody Tue Aug 4 12:47:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C544A3A1117 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:47:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JX8X7eu2ebZ8 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E8063A10E1 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:47:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3098; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1596570440; x=1597780040; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ToUjmBHqU1qIgpWY5gzQe5k3TYnbLh5Gk7abvlrEvNs=; b=LA2D/4ak8k9UyXrL8npG+DqzzdDFs+J05bhQDLC7Lroqw6u8AbeWQi8N S1gGQhAYyOfZUUEFx9hnau+1CIRtJ0gDUqRc6gjhW+zHyKQdQbIyoO0Ub zYTmKSgYAA/gS9dn1dC9sZScnnW8YJ03x2kBCP1eEDcTt2Y1NIwXszNLx 4=; X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BDBADkuilf/xbLJq1gHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQFAg?= =?us-ascii?q?UqBdTWBQwEgEiyENYkBh3MlnA4LAQEBDAEBLwQBAYRMAoIlJTgTAgMBAQEDA?= =?us-ascii?q?gMBAQEBBQEBAQIBBgRthWiFcQEBAQMBI0gOBQsLGAICJgICVwYTgyaCXSCyQ?= =?us-ascii?q?naBMophgQ4qjSiCAIERJwwQgk0+hBQpgxYzgi0EthOCbIMLlwADHp97rXWDV?= =?us-ascii?q?gIEBgUCFYFqI4FXMxoIGxU7KgGCPj4SGQ2OJgUXjiY/AzA3AgYBBwEBAwmOD?= =?us-ascii?q?oJGAQE?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,434,1589241600"; d="scan'208";a="26044150" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 04 Aug 2020 19:47:16 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-96-199.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-96-199.cisco.com [10.61.96.199]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 074JlEGA023664 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Aug 2020 19:47:15 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 21:47:13 +0200 Cc: Eric Rescorla , Mallory Knodel , "pearg@irtf.org" , Vittorio Bertola Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <86B902F9-0222-4E6A-B75F-7E6E505BC572@cisco.com> References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <57fefee9-f3d5-cf5f-3980-2b589c0aa2e9@cdt.org> <1761878407.1099.1596560345496@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> To: Joseph Lorenzo Hall X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.96.199, dhcp-10-61-96-199.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 19:47:22 -0000 Hi Joe and everyone First, I want to thank the chairs and the authors and Vittorio and = others for engaging in a good discussion, and in particular, I=E2=80=99d = like to thank you for taking the time to write out this document. There are some interesting parallels between this discussion and the = terminology flames that have taken place on the IETF list. Who gets to = define or choose terms? Does the IETF have the experience and = understanding to do so? I think I would prefer the answer to be = =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D. We are, after all, mostly engineers, and we = should stick to our knitting, as it were. To a lesser extent, this is = true of the IRTF as well. Where I think we get to have more of a voice is how those terms apply to = us and our industry, and that is something we shouldn=E2=80=99t duck. = Therefore, my view is that we should go with a definition that would be = generally acceptable to appropriate experts, if there is one. I will = note that the Wikipedia one has changed in the time you wrote the = document, which does lead to a concern about stability. You could = otherwise hedge along the lines Vittorio is suggesting or in some other = way. But then we should also at least briefly state how the term applies in = our context, so as to make clear that the intent is not to label every = network administrator a censor. Keep in mind that there are a great = many devices on the network that will process content that have no UI, = that have very limited ability to protect themselves. Explaining how = that protection is viewed is a bit broader than the scope of the current = document, but would not be out of line for this group to cover, if only = for a few lines. There is also a human element that also needs to be captured in this = context that a few of us noted: there are negative connotations with the = word, as there should be (IMHO). I would encourage HR people to = appreciate those connotations and not to weaken them by attempting to = stretch the definition beyond what you believe is really bad for = society, as you will otherwise inure people to the very thing you wish = to prevent. All of this having been said, if you do want to continue on the = discussion of the definition: > On 4 Aug 2020, at 19:19, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure consent vs. non-consent will address Vittorio or = Eliot=E2=80=99s critiques here, I suspect not. >=20 For my part it=E2=80=99s pretty close, my caveat being that the it would = not be censorship if the owner of the device receiving the content in = particular either did or would have freely and expressly given consent = to certain harmful content being blocked. I=E2=80=99ll readily note = that is not a testable condition in advance, although it would be in = retrospect. Look at it this way: if your neighbor sees a robber = breaking into your house while you are on vacation, would you like the = neighbor to wait for permission to protect your property? Surely not. 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(appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B1B43C004B; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:40:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:40:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <336581179.1095.1596613241405@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <20200804185831.GA17517@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <20200804185831.GA17517@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev4 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 07:40:45 -0000 > Il 04/08/2020 20:58 Stephane Bortzmeyer ha scritto: > > Censorship is when a third party blocks content that the sender wants > to send and the recipient wants to receive. Under this definition - or any other definition based on consent - even blocking abusive and violent material (from revenge porn to CSAM) would be considered censorship. So I don't think you can expect everyone to agree on this approach. Same for this: > Also, case 3 is way too narrow. If content is blocked for business > reasons, it is no longer censorship? If an employer blocks access to Facebook from the office to prevent employees from wasting their paid time, I don't see how that could be considered an attack on human rights. In any case, I don't think that the purpose of the draft should be to define what censorship is. I was rather suggesting that we document the disagreements so that there can be consensus on the draft and no one feels offended by it. If on the other hand it is not meant to be a consensus document, then there could perhaps be another non-consensus draft documenting the alternative views; this could also be a valid approach. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Thu Aug 6 12:36:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCD63A0E7C for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F9tzH-1sO_xa for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [92.243.4.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 564E03A0E94 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id A9941A0271; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:36:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D454DEC0B0D; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:32:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:32:22 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <20200806193222.GA4787@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <20200804185831.GA17517@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <336581179.1095.1596613241405@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <336581179.1095.1596613241405@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 18.04 (bionic) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] About consent (Was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 19:36:28 -0000 On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 09:40:41AM +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote a message of 20 lines which said: > Under this definition - or any other definition based on consent Note that I did not mention consent but desire. This is because, in Internet policy speak, "consent" is used for something which is quite different from a real consent: just clicking "I agree" on a button, whithout reading the dozens of pages of the terms of use, code of conduct or whatever. For the end user, it is reasonable to click without reading since they have no choice, anyway. (Another good reason for not reading the text is because it was written by californian lawyers so ordinary humans cannot really understand it.) This is why GDPR, in its wisdom , says "Consent is presumed not to be freely given if it does not allow separate consent to be given to different personal data processing operations despite it being appropriate in the individual case, or if the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is dependent on the consent despite such consent not being necessary for such performance." According to this vision, most of the time, on the Internet, consent was not freely given. To summarize: "consent" is now a very dangerous term and it is better not to use it. From nobody Thu Aug 6 12:40:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53DE03A0E45 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:40:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Dd5RVgJIQmZ for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [92.243.4.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B8B03A0E41 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 2ADF4A0273; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:40:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02697EC0B0D; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:37:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:37:22 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <20200806193722.GB4787@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <20200804185831.GA17517@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <336581179.1095.1596613241405@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <336581179.1095.1596613241405@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 18.04 (bionic) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 19:40:52 -0000 On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 09:40:41AM +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote a message of 20 lines which said: > So I don't think you can expect everyone to agree on this approach. Well, this entire I-D is about a political issue (even if the draft takes care of discussing only techniques) and it is common in politics that not everyone agrees. As Mallory reminded us, IRTF does not require consensus. > If an employer blocks access to Facebook from the office to prevent > employees from wasting their paid time, I don't see how that could > be considered an attack on human rights. You are talking about something different. I said "this is censorship" and you replied "it is not an attack on human rights". As was discussed here, censorship is a fact (unless one wants to rewrite language into NewSpeak). Its legitimacy is an opinion. Taking down nazi Web sites is censorship. IMHO, it is legitimate. We should not be afraid of words. From nobody Mon Aug 10 11:33:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@irtf.org Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186903A0B90; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 05:22:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Michael_T=C3=BCxen_via_Datatracker?= To: Cc: pearg@irtf.org, draft-irtf-pearg-numeric-ids-generation.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.12.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159680292803.8931.4890868238678597521@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Michael_T=C3=BCxen?= Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 05:22:08 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:33:35 -0700 Subject: [Pearg] Tsvart early review of draft-irtf-pearg-numeric-ids-generation-02 X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 12:22:08 -0000 Reviewer: Michael Tüxen Review result: Ready with Issues The document is well written, provides algorithms which could be used to address identified problems. One could add some text covering TCP timestamps. Section 1 states: "Recent history indicates that when new protocols are standardized or new protocol implementations are produced, the security and privacy properties of the associated identifiers tend to be overlooked,..." How does this related to recent/current activities like SCTP/DTLS or QUIC? The Algorithms in 7.1.1 and 7.1.2 can be substantially simplified when check_suitable_id() always returns true. Why are not the simplified algorithms shown? The algorithm in 7.3 (and later) uses a function F and it is stated that F must be a cryptographically-secure hash function. Couldn't you also use something like SipHash. When reading the algorithm in 7.4.1, I had the impression that it should also work with id_inc > 1 (by just changing that parameter). If that is true, I guess you would need to change "if (next_id == max_id)" to "if (max_id - next_id < id_inc) {" and also "next_id = min_id;" to "next_id = min_id + (id_inc - (max_id - next_id + 1));". If you don't want to be that generic, you might want to remove id_inc and just use 1. The algorithm in 7.4.1 also calls "store_counter(CONTEXT, next_id)" when returning ERROR. Why? The algorithms given before 9.4 are given in C code. The Algorithm in 9.4 breaks with this rule. Is this intended? Nits: Page 10: if(check_suitable_id(next_id)) -> if (check_suitable_id(next_id)) Page 11: if(check_suitable_id(next_id)) -> if (check_suitable_id(next_id)) Page 12: if(check_suitable_id(next_id)) -> if (check_suitable_id(next_id)) Page 14: if(lookup_counter(CONTEXT) == ERROR){ -> if (lookup_counter(CONTEXT) == ERROR) { Page 14: if (check_suitable_id(next_id)){ -> if (check_suitable_id(next_id)) { Page 14: }\n else { -> } else { Page 16: if(check_suitable_id(next_id)) -> if (check_suitable_id(next_id)) Page 18: if(check_suitable_id(next_id)) -> if (check_suitable_id(next_id)) Page 24: linear(CONTEXT_2)= linear(CONTEXT_2) + increment(); -> linear(CONTEXT_2) = linear(CONTEXT_2) + increment(); Page 24: if(check_suitable_id(next_id)) -> if (check_suitable_id(next_id)) From nobody Mon Aug 10 16:25:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657BB3A0E64 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:25:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yGPyBLHqOPOJ for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D82D33A0E66 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse297.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.43] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx165.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k5H9r-0004KV-RQ for pearg@irtf.org; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:24:49 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BQX9g6BS2z1xXB for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k5H9j-00031v-OU for pearg@irtf.org; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:24:39 -0700 Received: (qmail 8342 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2020 23:24:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.61]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 10 Aug 2020 23:24:39 -0000 To: pearg@irtf.org References: From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXtavGxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA1ou9A5MHTP9N3jfsWzlDZ+jPnQkusmc7sfLmWVz1Rmu0 J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEw3G4 Nwi4QEpAAXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwMFCQlmAYAFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgEC F4AACgkQELAmqKBYtJQbMwD/ebj/qnSbthC/5kD5DxZ/Ip0CGJw5QBz/+fJp3R8iAlsBAMjK r2tmyWyJz0CUkVG24WaR5EAJDvgwDv8h22U6QVkAuDgEXtavGxIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEHQJoM 6MUAIqpoqdCIiACiEynZf7nlJg2Eu0pXIhbUGONdAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEEw3G4Nwi4QEpA AXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQELAmqKBYtJRm2wD7BzeK5gEXSmBcBf0j BYdSaJcXNzx4yPLbP4GnUMAyl2cBAJzcsR4RkwO4dCRqM9CHpVJCwHtbUDJaa55//E0kp+gH Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:24:32 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YtLBW90hKMSJwbIfv4iL3UbGp751ZjBLx" X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.43 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0X2OOYwfFINEXkW0Te3GMuqpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDpaUm5TrTL2ku6BQx2IM1+5j9 EvBvwu01uVCaGVBWGquMGjp8gKynRFO2CQGaTIUu2rBNMmEsKEibQwSU1xBeOHButNDpi1WUXRkr He1vFsZaZad0VL/QynhFAlbT36L8hojBTalhRrscvN0XVCh+owZ6weYgSzquK2hxskqXvy8woCTx LKweTbuJ+19zsyHVGVmhMAaQ/AfCRwRe7yHm5oY+NYmsSGn+svMubxnbgm1cr18FZBEPC2/c16Xd 7sC9aC4xteE1WLqGS9YoqrsZ2DyteN0e+ECCv9/f+GPymkgDVo7QBKA4MctKq4ifYPcXFRL2K3LA EfDXVOdt7wDbusYnuEVWSxKMHbU0zkNM3EElFDaoLuOPKc8gc82pKfhB7T02ZXdoQxMs//iOE4Fl hiCv9TR+UxzLZWL8hwGBjhoI3W+YcuHfP5PkZb5A+wE5qGdpH54Oa3V8I76VOEvlwIVUdYndRiyh yQb8o5SNcNSytLldAWwOQdWXiOxaYDn+YptwQTuNgu0Qw+gDHkw/H8pXXdczUFV19XHNrAd2Zgkv UwPy3x0FYtCNEb10sHyQCLHEvD1OqP6bgZ4L66GcgBg66gs5OuzYxJgw5atIxeNDvjI/CYe5WPy0 +t1RP0az5OdpVfxYhVwU7WTgoOzTmJxMPnetLBJMh51NiRRoHIBcx+RfJhharlTKaH22UolymiK7 x42VjdzChZMe6O/DiWiiIzuXMTE3l4bIsk+O50uj4V5kDYvgqzRsCpJnLzRD08QV3No+S2msRDep v5w/kkG0v17AmegcpQ0tml/sN9lmMy/o83jVXTcfb9k0nLWblJy7uxV6dw8jzlsaNZe6hynMJcjx DydxsJEju76A7X1QIVydqXpZ6MHhiKws9Iiut28r9wo4SqUIg8Yh9hAM0n3LLzx/F2gT3wl8JQJv Bho= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] About hiding in crowds X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:25:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --YtLBW90hKMSJwbIfv4iL3UbGp751ZjBLx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="O2tZKxIfMTLRpE18DNtqRZuOBTogwltuS"; protected-headers="v1" From: Christian Huitema To: pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: About hiding in crowds References: In-Reply-To: --O2tZKxIfMTLRpE18DNtqRZuOBTogwltuS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US A lot of the privacy extensions recently developed amount to "hiding in crowds". For example, SNI encryption assumes that multiple servers are accessible through the same IP address. If the SNI is hidden, outside observers won't know which one was accessed. DNS encryption makes the same assumption in an indirect way. It assumes that we gain privacy by hiding the DNS exchange that maps www.example.com to an IP address. This is fine, except for the fact that most servers have their own IP address. You can hide the DNS exchange, you can hide the SNI, but outside observers will still be able to understand which servers you are accessing by simply looking at the address header. If we want real privacy, we will need something else! How do I know? I started with the Majestic Million list of domain names, and resolved 25,000 of these names, and found out that on average a given IP address was shared by about 1.21 names, as explained in: https://huitema.wordpress.com/2020/08/09/can-internet-services-hide-in-cr= owds/). And then I resolved the next 25000 names to be more sure of the results. The average increased slightly, from 1.21 to 1.22, which does not change the results much. 74.6% of domains use an address that is unique to them, 8.7% use an address shared by 2 domains, and only 8% use an address shared by 10 or more servers. DNS encryption and SNI encryption do bring privacy for a minority of connection, for which it may well be important. But they do not improve privacy in 75% of the cases. I understand that privacy-warriors can use VPN, proxies or Tor. But these tools are far from perfect -- see the recent Sybil attacks against Tor, or the outveiling of shady business practices by many VPNs. In any case, these tools at best provide "privacy for a few active users". But that leaves aside the bulk of Internet users. Thus my question for this program: how would we provide privacy for the masses? -- Christian Huitema --O2tZKxIfMTLRpE18DNtqRZuOBTogwltuS-- --YtLBW90hKMSJwbIfv4iL3UbGp751ZjBLx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTDcbg3CLhASkABdRQQsCaooFi0lAUCXzHXMAAKCRAQsCaooFi0 lNKkAP45vsnmdW+0fTEOTTgWFxsQIj+R+pMOMAMtRYFT7684WgD/c6mmEtxdJYfY bNtzNL0nLcgK8KiR/jU5Z63ta9rM3gU= =RMyX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YtLBW90hKMSJwbIfv4iL3UbGp751ZjBLx-- From nobody Tue Aug 11 03:00:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109353A0F4D for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:00:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IXROJNxPQwgb for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C06A3A0F4A for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:00:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3700; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1597140029; x=1598349629; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=MiZNM1Y9uj1AXAkTheOsdY5vkFbi2JYBMzVEzE3Dt/0=; b=gigYp0R7k5+TqOrT3WToz5W2htAh3rY5hMiEdsUBhURe2FQyK/fYjYfc GhBF2DYetMa+1ec+fpPcZW+HJbpDHDUpjfxNMeE0TPB0vroQH5q50c8u9 a3IrluUXP2+HrifZNvBPApOBDAjuAnHlKsWeempecNmVF8LjeREo8X3Ko c=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B+BACyajJf/xbLJq1gHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFAgUqDGVQBIBIsjTeHdSWcEQQHAQEBCQMBASUKBAEBhEwCgjc?= =?us-ascii?q?lOBMCAwEBCwEBBQEBAQIBBgRthVwMhXEBAQEDAUkjCgMFCwsYLlcGE4MmAYJ?= =?us-ascii?q?cIA+xT3SBNIQ7AYEWhGgQgTiBU4tXggCBOAwQgU9+PoJcAYEYhBKCLQSbG5o?= =?us-ascii?q?EgQeCbIMLgS2EK5E2Ax6gEpxrkSGDVgIEBgUCFYFqI4FXMxoIGxU7KgGCCgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BMgkJLBIZDY4wEoNOilg/AzA3AgYIAQEDCY55gjUBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,460,1589241600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="28659149" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 11 Aug 2020 10:00:25 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4907.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4907.cisco.com [10.61.83.42]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 07BA0OOW028768 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:00:24 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F58832A4-493E-43A1-ADE1-B4A5A0CC9337"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:00:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: pearg@irtf.org To: Christian Huitema References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.83.42, ams3-vpn-dhcp4907.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] About hiding in crowds X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:00:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F58832A4-493E-43A1-ADE1-B4A5A0CC9337 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Christian What you describe below is something that Barbara Fraser and I noted = some years ago at the STRINT workshop. We argued at the time that = providing points in the network to aggregate traffic was an appropriate = approach to both blend and blind. It requires end user trust in those = aggregation points that some might call middle boxes. This is = effectively what Mozilla has done with Cloudflare. This notion of = agency is still something that I think is worth exploring. Eliot > On 11 Aug 2020, at 01:24, Christian Huitema = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > A lot of the privacy extensions recently developed amount to "hiding = in > crowds". For example, SNI encryption assumes that multiple servers are > accessible through the same IP address. If the SNI is hidden, outside > observers won't know which one was accessed. DNS encryption makes the > same assumption in an indirect way. It assumes that we gain privacy by > hiding the DNS exchange that maps www.example.com to an IP address. = This > is fine, except for the fact that most servers have their own IP > address. You can hide the DNS exchange, you can hide the SNI, but > outside observers will still be able to understand which servers you = are > accessing by simply looking at the address header. If we want real > privacy, we will need something else! >=20 > How do I know? I started with the Majestic Million list of domain = names, > and resolved 25,000 of these names, and found out that on average a > given IP address was shared by about 1.21 names, as explained in: > = https://huitema.wordpress.com/2020/08/09/can-internet-services-hide-in-cro= wds/). > And then I resolved the next 25000 names to be more sure of the = results. > The average increased slightly, from 1.21 to 1.22, which does not = change > the results much. 74.6% of domains use an address that is unique to > them, 8.7% use an address shared by 2 domains, and only 8% use an > address shared by 10 or more servers. DNS encryption and SNI = encryption > do bring privacy for a minority of connection, for which it may well = be > important. But they do not improve privacy in 75% of the cases. >=20 > I understand that privacy-warriors can use VPN, proxies or Tor. But > these tools are far from perfect -- see the recent Sybil attacks = against > Tor, or the outveiling of shady business practices by many VPNs. In = any > case, these tools at best provide "privacy for a few active users". = But > that leaves aside the bulk of Internet users. Thus my question for = this > program: how would we provide privacy for the masses? >=20 > -- Christian Huitema >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_F58832A4-493E-43A1-ADE1-B4A5A0CC9337 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAl8ybDYACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMRPwf9HkL/bzroO5dKFONWHtxwdiR59ZU26nkQ1vDQES1J7b0OaixiMMYvQQDy Bh8WP1NPzrJBEJVsvMyf8LC0v2mlBtpA/ikYieH5nzikDT4aEsrnPVOuxwB8L57W 0a2FznXu1bNbAgf5uc4LJszazpT/bCtS9kGXSrIaWmx05GL81YanOuhvjxnnCgjP +j7QaeC2a5QNsFAFa6cOb4aQHwLW5dRiZ+WeLBUe6Is7WgrW6cLt6tVGtWrpvOaw SDmytZgzTj46s/7qn7EsdaizPJrwG9ZOxjeYVNkP2ILYqlKNNuklaQchZU6IFgri KovMDYFokC4SZE83wg6gQI/naR0YLA== =BL1i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F58832A4-493E-43A1-ADE1-B4A5A0CC9337-- From nobody Tue Aug 11 05:22:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: 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by AM0PR07MB6290.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:154::7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3283.10; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:22:11 +0000 Received: from AM0PR0702MB3713.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d1f1:397c:7240:92f1]) by AM0PR0702MB3713.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d1f1:397c:7240:92f1%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3283.015; Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:22:11 +0000 From: Mirja Kuehlewind To: Eliot Lear , Christian Huitema CC: "pearg@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: [Pearg] About hiding in crowds Thread-Index: AQHWb22W/DD3p+JzRkGaS4Ceu1Hx3KkyrZgAgABJJgA= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:22:11 +0000 Message-ID: <13DDFBEC-132B-4C6A-8071-F370204A23BE@ericsson.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.39.20071300 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none 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Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM0PR0702MB3713.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9bbc60ec-48e8-4cb3-0be2-08d83df12c77 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Aug 2020 12:22:11.1969 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 84LBxK2PD0zRgymOV4xxqbnLyPKDhbeheeQEcgPt0e9f7555zVvrXSW6iOTkJ2yPx+MpTvSUd9sF0McBiUEobyxTffXythdBkzlbRbLg/nc= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR07MB6290 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] About hiding in crowds X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:22:22 -0000 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ZGUgInByaXZhY3kgZm9yIGEgZmV3IGFjdGl2ZSB1c2VycyIuIEJ1dA0KICAgID4gdGhhdCBsZWF2 ZXMgYXNpZGUgdGhlIGJ1bGsgb2YgSW50ZXJuZXQgdXNlcnMuIFRodXMgbXkgcXVlc3Rpb24gZm9y IHRoaXMNCiAgICA+IHByb2dyYW06IGhvdyB3b3VsZCB3ZSBwcm92aWRlIHByaXZhY3kgZm9yIHRo ZSBtYXNzZXM/DQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+IC0tIENocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hDQogICAgPiANCiAg ICA+IA0KICAgID4gDQogICAgPiANCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Aug 13 10:48:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CCB83A0FD6 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:48:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham 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mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 710803280060 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:48:32 -0400 (EDT) To: pearg@irtf.org References: <159466596628.22724.642459259274073600@ietfa.amsl.com> <116747697.938.1596554741142@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <20200804185831.GA17517@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <336581179.1095.1596613241405@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20200806193722.GB4787@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> From: Juliana Guerra Autocrypt: addr=juliana@derechosdigitales.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFfRsLcBEACuW2xcKhPTcaSD9ZnXQLQmJFiQR8/NLlfbEc1+Cmwd1neMoXkjhM0AtTlz 1zlyTPC08zl4gBhZjDnuMXROhWK02MYKmotAgJuAK1XcUv0ay67MddvAspJCPqkiJiwFxWsN h5x4rx+Ib5+gIGKQyB27PU/fM2G2uJajnjl0UY54QxCTt2YqomH5uYMH6rqqxKs6XVQbptDP 1EXOvrkn0bCcIlzXAKwFQuByXrMWgNG5yPztyYMVvn68/R9HSIyCWpvLCqcNTp+AmNCs2Qmp 4c/Be4ZFlZ9tyEUz9CGDZD+Scm/mqgUBb6q/T4h2LRfDLmiLqp0mERC5tDJCBeOIHb/x0jW5 KOctl3lz63MsGC4JeoR9iT8sMQEx+sWZEpJdXXyuBiK0Q1tWPUruHAmv4oPXijNzx/+xs7/d 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hXSWnKPBu91/8865BbNdVKBZbjb/SStKDybQtNSsj1atl+AAhcSocDFsNUyXKApgwq+v1Ej2 JLak214TypqkTDUPDQH87l2ieih20JNAQE3UskHITAlHdW4X0+oR/4E+XThLtBTlWg9a1AwI UJpdiqrrw4wjGtjSZt7pN44gKMbtZM0EZRW06ZIPYnSQHzim10OY7FMmmvvgoAM= Message-ID: <1a7fba01-0888-e4ce-2314-074b7c4153b6@derechosdigitales.org> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:48:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200806193722.GB4787@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 17:48:44 -0000 Hello everyone, Following the discussion, I think that even if the draft is technical it has a political impact that need to be addressed by a clear use of language in the description of techniques, including the reference to censorship. The fact that the word "censorship" as a category can be understood as politically charged does not prevent its usefulness for describing the scope of the techniques described in the draft. Providing a working definition of how some terms will be understood through the document could be useful to understand the functional reference to the term censorship, and in there particularly acknowledge how sensitive these terminology can be perceived and what is the purpose of using it in the draft. In that sense, I suggest to include in this description that even if in many cases some authors understand the term "censorship regime", as referred to the actions taken by a government without democratic legitimacy, this is not the intended use provided to the word in this draft, but rather clearly stating that this is a technical approach to a political issue that makes reference to a diferential of power between who makes the decision and is in control of execution of a technique that has human rights implications. It is also important to clearly mention that the discussion about human rights implications, or even the legitimacy of the actions described are totally out of scope of what is covered by this draft. The reference of consent to account for the differential of power in this situation does not seem to quite fit to put this issue in a better direction to be solved, so I suggest to avoid it in this context (there are other topics where I think it's necessary to open a discussion on that). In this way, as Stephane pointed out in his last message the attempt is not to ignore the meaning of words, but neither providing them a reach that goes beyond the scope of the technical analysis provided by the draft that refers, as Mallory pointed out a few messages ago, to the impacts of the techniques themselves nor the legitimacy or intent of who executes them. Regards! Juliana On 06/08/20 14:37, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 09:40:41AM +0200, > Vittorio Bertola wrote > a message of 20 lines which said: > >> So I don't think you can expect everyone to agree on this approach. > > Well, this entire I-D is about a political issue (even if the draft > takes care of discussing only techniques) and it is common in politics > that not everyone agrees. As Mallory reminded us, IRTF does not > require consensus. > >> If an employer blocks access to Facebook from the office to prevent >> employees from wasting their paid time, I don't see how that could >> be considered an attack on human rights. > > You are talking about something different. I said "this is censorship" > and you replied "it is not an attack on human rights". As was > discussed here, censorship is a fact (unless one wants to rewrite > language into NewSpeak). Its legitimacy is an opinion. Taking down > nazi Web sites is censorship. IMHO, it is legitimate. We should not be > afraid of words. > From nobody Thu Aug 13 10:51:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50E83A0F20 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:51:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eGelZrs1D6xc for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM02-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam07on2079.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.95.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5ABD53A083D for ; 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boundary="_000_BY5PR06MB64519CF32E0B7F29C59461E0B1430BY5PR06MB6451namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR06MB6451.namprd06.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f316dbbb-ec03-4276-47cd-08d83fb18796 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Aug 2020 17:51:38.7488 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: jlvFH2dcw4RwhNDrqeoJMYu69yaTO8ZzYe7NMF2fGq+Ap5yAgce2Fqw+tcUUtTwx X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR06MB4088 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 17:51:43 -0000 --_000_BY5PR06MB64519CF32E0B7F29C59461E0B1430BY5PR06MB6451namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Juliana. I'll see if I can draft some good text this weekend alo= ng these lines. best, Joe ________________________________ From: Pearg on behalf of Juliana Guerra Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 13:48 To: pearg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt Hello everyone, Following the discussion, I think that even if the draft is technical it has a political impact that need to be addressed by a clear use of language in the description of techniques, including the reference to censorship. The fact that the word "censorship" as a category can be understood as politically charged does not prevent its usefulness for describing the scope of the techniques described in the draft. Providing a working definition of how some terms will be understood through the document could be useful to understand the functional reference to the term censorship, and in there particularly acknowledge how sensitive these terminology can be perceived and what is the purpose of using it in the draft. In that sense, I suggest to include in this description that even if in many cases some authors understand the term "censorship regime", as referred to the actions taken by a government without democratic legitimacy, this is not the intended use provided to the word in this draft, but rather clearly stating that this is a technical approach to a political issue that makes reference to a diferential of power between who makes the decision and is in control of execution of a technique that has human rights implications. It is also important to clearly mention that the discussion about human rights implications, or even the legitimacy of the actions described are totally out of scope of what is covered by this draft. The reference of consent to account for the differential of power in this situation does not seem to quite fit to put this issue in a better direction to be solved, so I suggest to avoid it in this context (there are other topics where I think it's necessary to open a discussion on that). In this way, as Stephane pointed out in his last message the attempt is not to ignore the meaning of words, but neither providing them a reach that goes beyond the scope of the technical analysis provided by the draft that refers, as Mallory pointed out a few messages ago, to the impacts of the techniques themselves nor the legitimacy or intent of who executes them. Regards! Juliana On 06/08/20 14:37, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 09:40:41AM +0200, > Vittorio Bertola wrote > a message of 20 lines which said: > >> So I don't think you can expect everyone to agree on this approach. > > Well, this entire I-D is about a political issue (even if the draft > takes care of discussing only techniques) and it is common in politics > that not everyone agrees. As Mallory reminded us, IRTF does not > require consensus. > >> If an employer blocks access to Facebook from the office to prevent >> employees from wasting their paid time, I don't see how that could >> be considered an attack on human rights. > > You are talking about something different. I said "this is censorship" > and you replied "it is not an attack on human rights". As was > discussed here, censorship is a fact (unless one wants to rewrite > language into NewSpeak). Its legitimacy is an opinion. Taking down > nazi Web sites is censorship. IMHO, it is legitimate. We should not be > afraid of words. > -- Pearg mailing list Pearg@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg --_000_BY5PR06MB64519CF32E0B7F29C59461E0B1430BY5PR06MB6451namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you, Juliana. I'll see if I can draft some good text this weekend alo= ng these lines. best, Joe
From: Pearg <pearg-bounc= es@irtf.org> on behalf of Juliana Guerra <juliana@derechosdigitales.o= rg>
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 13:48
To: pearg@irtf.org <pearg@irtf.org>
Subject: Re: [Pearg] I-D Action: draft-irtf-pearg-censorship-04.txt<= /font>
 
Hello everyone,

Following the discussion, I think that even if the draft is technical it has a political impact that need to be addressed by a clear use of
language in the description of techniques, including the reference to
censorship. The fact that the word "censorship" as a category can= be
understood as politically charged does not prevent its usefulness for
describing the scope of the techniques described in the draft. Providing a working definition of how some terms will be understood through the
document could be useful to understand the functional reference to the
term censorship, and in there particularly acknowledge how sensitive
these terminology can be perceived and what is the purpose of using it
in the draft.

In that sense, I suggest to include in this description that even if in
many cases some authors understand the term "censorship regime", = as
referred to the actions taken by a government without democratic
legitimacy, this is not the intended use provided to the word in this
draft, but rather clearly stating that this is a technical approach to a political issue that makes reference to a diferential of power between
who makes the decision and is in control of execution of a technique
that has human rights implications. It is also important to clearly
mention that the discussion about human rights implications, or even the legitimacy of the actions described are totally out of scope of what is
covered by this draft. The reference of consent to account for the
differential of power in this situation does not seem to quite fit to
put this issue in a better direction to be solved, so I suggest to avoid it in this context (there are other topics where I think it's necessary
to open a discussion on that).

In this way, as Stephane pointed out in his last message the attempt is
not to ignore the meaning of words, but neither providing them a reach
that goes beyond the scope of the technical analysis provided by the
draft that refers, as Mallory pointed out a few messages ago, to the
impacts of the techniques themselves nor the legitimacy or intent of who executes them.

Regards!

Juliana

On 06/08/20 14:37, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 05, 2020 at 09:40:41AM +0200,
>  Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> wrote=
>  a message of 20 lines which said:
>
>> So I don't think you can expect everyone to agree on this approach= .
>
> Well, this entire I-D is about a political issue (even if the draft > takes care of discussing only techniques) and it is common in politics=
> that not everyone agrees. As Mallory reminded us, IRTF does not
> require consensus.
>
>> If an employer blocks access to Facebook from the office to preven= t
>> employees from wasting their paid time, I don't see how that could=
>> be considered an attack on human rights.
>
> You are talking about something different. I said "this is censor= ship"
> and you replied "it is not an attack on human rights". As wa= s
> discussed here, censorship is a fact (unless one wants to rewrite
> language into NewSpeak). Its legitimacy is an opinion. Taking down
> nazi Web sites is censorship. IMHO, it is legitimate. We should not be=
> afraid of words.
>

--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/pearg
--_000_BY5PR06MB64519CF32E0B7F29C59461E0B1430BY5PR06MB6451namp_-- From nobody Thu Aug 13 16:00:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AFD3A0B03 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:59:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=salesforce.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vaj8VimFA75k for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B52C73A0A83 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id q14so6953925ilj.8 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:59:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salesforce.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=v2mznWS8zrddUGi7pNZQmosfjTts/5gVcbU6jRJPvqM=; b=Lv3CDcb0Bhnskt9ODJL7cn5QQ2+/CPtfqgj2fdqRBPMpK0siz4jTjCHcDnoBEds+7q jy2XfTgK6XMcNRjG3hKvuyk7ZJLX59YxESzzmuZJJeCXsToVWCx2kZYk4QB06ojw7nZb 1qQU31NOV279KMjQnaY1KUdN31uDYF3nL5CIg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=v2mznWS8zrddUGi7pNZQmosfjTts/5gVcbU6jRJPvqM=; b=spJM0de1Owp0D4R+rFRXcdgw70RXVMpJbc+hncr6+kMKPH7mtiCi7D4C6um6ouZjce 551NcWLqXVBWt6BqbW60hN5xiSbCAB0pPh6gF34n45Y3FJBsz94ovVLPpyxgQ/+elTwQ tgw506jWu7qhie+QRPXgy50KqBTOqn9Gf9x+kCzPnCTHPXeuqtnTXTzEx+1FQ1Ursqsm oVCRnaQVjvc9PEk+twcIhC1yTefHJV42ECWT2g1pdq2Xk8RnmweQUGOq9CaSN/SMOz4v 09hM9hZXGnFxE3x4n9cA/4XHeOkniTTLouzwX3el34sL5tz75VqRaZIal/3t/TuDUJLa uVAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533a3NUUc4CheJNhvc83xpThagsRsINj2FZd47K4zr3MK7YNITqZ NXYCwBHEK1S7vucZUrkRaDxPe8eT3MQhD9CUs6yfKsHfoKLb4A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyiv8Cs0cVzehlc5fvLgcDgmRtvI+RNKeWvmcDPXgnp82uARLfS8mXHLCdH2qLj+mWpzrPD6vOp+cqU1zf//NQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:980f:: with SMTP id l15mr106085ili.51.1597359559782; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:59:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Shivan Sahib Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:59:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christian Huitema Cc: pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000023e66405acca413c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] About hiding in crowds X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:59:30 -0000 --00000000000023e66405acca413c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for the note Christian. I remember that a similar point was brought up in the *"What can you learn from an IP?" *paper presented by Nikita Borisov at ANRW 2019 last year: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3340301.3341133, video of presentation: https://youtu.be/pEnT2BJvyv0?t=106 In the discussion after, it was brought up that IPv6 could make things better (more to choose from, so less stickyness if servers wanted) or worse (less incentive to have the same IP address for multiple services). There was also some discussion around what - the CDNs can do - the websites can do, and - clients can do Sara and I were chatting today and we reckoned this was an architectural consideration (with research input) for Internet privacy. It seemed to us that a first step might be to write up the concern and possible solutions in an Internet Draft. Thanks also for the blog post ; I tried checking out https://github.com/private-octopus/centraldns but got a 404. On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 4:25 PM Christian Huitema wrote: > A lot of the privacy extensions recently developed amount to "hiding in > crowds". For example, SNI encryption assumes that multiple servers are > accessible through the same IP address. If the SNI is hidden, outside > observers won't know which one was accessed. DNS encryption makes the > same assumption in an indirect way. It assumes that we gain privacy by > hiding the DNS exchange that maps www.example.com to an IP address. This > is fine, except for the fact that most servers have their own IP > address. You can hide the DNS exchange, you can hide the SNI, but > outside observers will still be able to understand which servers you are > accessing by simply looking at the address header. If we want real > privacy, we will need something else! > > How do I know? I started with the Majestic Million list of domain names, > and resolved 25,000 of these names, and found out that on average a > given IP address was shared by about 1.21 names, as explained in: > > https://huitema.wordpress.com/2020/08/09/can-internet-services-hide-in-crowds/ > ). > And then I resolved the next 25000 names to be more sure of the results. > The average increased slightly, from 1.21 to 1.22, which does not change > the results much. 74.6% of domains use an address that is unique to > them, 8.7% use an address shared by 2 domains, and only 8% use an > address shared by 10 or more servers. DNS encryption and SNI encryption > do bring privacy for a minority of connection, for which it may well be > important. But they do not improve privacy in 75% of the cases. > > I understand that privacy-warriors can use VPN, proxies or Tor. But > these tools are far from perfect -- see the recent Sybil attacks against > Tor, or the outveiling of shady business practices by many VPNs. In any > case, these tools at best provide "privacy for a few active users". But > that leaves aside the bulk of Internet users. Thus my question for this > program: how would we provide privacy for the masses? > > -- Christian Huitema > > > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > --00000000000023e66405acca413c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the note Christian. I remember that a similar p= oint was brought up in the "What can you learn from an IP?"=C2= =A0paper presented by Nikita Borisov at ANRW 2019 last year:=C2=A0https://dl.acm.org/do= i/10.1145/3340301.3341133, video of presentation:=C2=A0https://youtu.be/pEnT2BJvyv0?t=3D106= =C2=A0
In the discussion after, it was brought=C2=A0up that IPv6 could = make things better (more to choose from, so less stickyness if servers want= ed) or worse (less incentive to have the same IP address for multiple servi= ces). There was also some discussion=C2=A0around what
  • the= CDNs can do=C2=A0
  • the websites can do, and
  • clients can do<= /li>
Sara and I were chatting today and we reckoned this was= an architectural consideration (with research input) for Internet privacy.= It seemed to us that a=C2=A0first step might be to write up the concern an= d possible solutions in an Internet Draft.=C2=A0

Thanks also for the=C2=A0blog post; I tried checking= out=C2=A0https:/= /github.com/private-octopus/centraldns but got a 404.=C2=A0
=

On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 4:25 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
A l= ot of the privacy extensions recently developed amount to "hiding in crowds". For example, SNI encryption assumes that multiple servers are=
accessible through the same IP address. If the SNI is hidden, outside
observers won't know which one was accessed. DNS encryption makes the same assumption in an indirect way. It assumes that we gain privacy by
hiding the DNS exchange that maps www.example.com to an IP address. This is fine, except for the fact that most servers have their own IP
address. You can hide the DNS exchange, you can hide the SNI, but
outside observers will still be able to understand which servers you are accessing by simply looking at the address header. If we want real
privacy, we will need something else!

How do I know? I started with the Majestic Million list of domain names, and resolved 25,000 of these names, and found out that on average a
given IP address was shared by about 1.21 names, as explained in:
https://huitema.wordpr= ess.com/2020/08/09/can-internet-services-hide-in-crowds/).
And then I resolved the next 25000 names to be more sure of the results. The average increased slightly, from 1.21 to 1.22, which does not change the results much. 74.6% of domains use an address that is unique to
them, 8.7% use an address shared by 2 domains, and only 8% use an
address shared by 10 or more servers. DNS encryption and SNI encryption
do bring privacy for a minority of connection, for which it may well be
important. But they do not improve privacy in 75% of the cases.

I understand that privacy-warriors can use VPN, proxies or Tor. But
these tools are far from perfect -- see the recent Sybil attacks against Tor, or the outveiling of shady business practices by many VPNs. In any
case, these tools at best provide "privacy for a few active users"= ;. But
that leaves aside the bulk of Internet users. Thus my question for this
program: how would we provide privacy for the masses?

-- Christian Huitema


--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg
--00000000000023e66405acca413c-- From nobody Thu Aug 13 21:48:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283023A0CE3 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 21:48:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e7Ru8Ly5iueV for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 21:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FB6E3A0CE2 for ; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry about the 404. I messed up with the GitHub project, and did not realized it was set as "private". Fixed now. If you want to work on an Internet draft, I am happy to collaborate. -- Christian Huitema On 8/13/2020 3:59 PM, Shivan Sahib wrote: > Thanks for the note Christian. I remember that a similar point was > brought up in the /"What can you learn from an IP?" /paper presented > by Nikita Borisov at ANRW 2019 last > year: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3340301.3341133, video of > presentation: https://youtu.be/pEnT2BJvyv0?t=106  > In the discussion after, it was brought up that IPv6 could make things > better (more to choose from, so less stickyness if servers wanted) or > worse (less incentive to have the same IP address for multiple > services). There was also some discussion around what > > * the CDNs can do  > * the websites can do, and > * clients can do > > Sara and I were chatting today and we reckoned this was an > architectural consideration (with research input) for Internet > privacy. It seemed to us that a first step might be to write up the > concern and possible solutions in an Internet Draft.  > > Thanks also for the blog post > ; > I tried checking out https://github.com/private-octopus/centraldns but > got a 404.  > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 4:25 PM Christian Huitema > wrote: > > A lot of the privacy extensions recently developed amount to > "hiding in > crowds". For example, SNI encryption assumes that multiple servers are > accessible through the same IP address. If the SNI is hidden, outside > observers won't know which one was accessed. DNS encryption makes the > same assumption in an indirect way. It assumes that we gain privacy by > hiding the DNS exchange that maps www.example.com > to an IP address. This > is fine, except for the fact that most servers have their own IP > address. You can hide the DNS exchange, you can hide the SNI, but > outside observers will still be able to understand which servers > you are > accessing by simply looking at the address header. If we want real > privacy, we will need something else! > > How do I know? I started with the Majestic Million list of domain > names, > and resolved 25,000 of these names, and found out that on average a > given IP address was shared by about 1.21 names, as explained in: > https://huitema.wordpress.com/2020/08/09/can-internet-services-hide-in-crowds/). > And then I resolved the next 25000 names to be more sure of the > results. > The average increased slightly, from 1.21 to 1.22, which does not > change > the results much. 74.6% of domains use an address that is unique to > them, 8.7% use an address shared by 2 domains, and only 8% use an > address shared by 10 or more servers. DNS encryption and SNI > encryption > do bring privacy for a minority of connection, for which it may > well be > important. But they do not improve privacy in 75% of the cases. > > I understand that privacy-warriors can use VPN, proxies or Tor. But > these tools are far from perfect -- see the recent Sybil attacks > against > Tor, or the outveiling of shady business practices by many VPNs. > In any > case, these tools at best provide "privacy for a few active > users". But > that leaves aside the bulk of Internet users. Thus my question for > this > program: how would we provide privacy for the masses? > > -- Christian Huitema > > > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > --------------28D766D3C9569690A933B290 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Sorry about the 404. I messed up with the GitHub project, and did not realized it was set as "private". Fixed now. If you want to work on an Internet draft, I am happy to collaborate.

-- Christian Huitema

On 8/13/2020 3:59 PM, Shivan Sahib wrote:
Thanks for the note Christian. I remember that a similar point was brought up in the "What can you learn from an IP?" paper presented by Nikita Borisov at ANRW 2019 last year: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3340301.3341133, video of presentation: https://youtu.be/pEnT2BJvyv0?t=106 
In the discussion after, it was brought up that IPv6 could make things better (more to choose from, so less stickyness if servers wanted) or worse (less incentive to have the same IP address for multiple services). There was also some discussion around what
  • the CDNs can do 
  • the websites can do, and
  • clients can do
Sara and I were chatting today and we reckoned this was an architectural consideration (with research input) for Internet privacy. It seemed to us that a first step might be to write up the concern and possible solutions in an Internet Draft. 

Thanks also for the blog post; I tried checking out https://github.com/private-octopus/centraldns but got a 404. 

On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 4:25 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
A lot of the privacy extensions recently developed amount to "hiding in
crowds". For example, SNI encryption assumes that multiple servers are
accessible through the same IP address. If the SNI is hidden, outside
observers won't know which one was accessed. DNS encryption makes the
same assumption in an indirect way. It assumes that we gain privacy by
hiding the DNS exchange that maps www.example.com to an IP address. This
is fine, except for the fact that most servers have their own IP
address. You can hide the DNS exchange, you can hide the SNI, but
outside observers will still be able to understand which servers you are
accessing by simply looking at the address header. If we want real
privacy, we will need something else!

How do I know? I started with the Majestic Million list of domain names,
and resolved 25,000 of these names, and found out that on average a
given IP address was shared by about 1.21 names, as explained in:
https://huitema.wordpress.com/2020/08/09/can-internet-services-hide-in-crowds/).
And then I resolved the next 25000 names to be more sure of the results.
The average increased slightly, from 1.21 to 1.22, which does not change
the results much. 74.6% of domains use an address that is unique to
them, 8.7% use an address shared by 2 domains, and only 8% use an
address shared by 10 or more servers. DNS encryption and SNI encryption
do bring privacy for a minority of connection, for which it may well be
important. But they do not improve privacy in 75% of the cases.

I understand that privacy-warriors can use VPN, proxies or Tor. But
these tools are far from perfect -- see the recent Sybil attacks against
Tor, or the outveiling of shady business practices by many VPNs. In any
case, these tools at best provide "privacy for a few active users". But
that leaves aside the bulk of Internet users. Thus my question for this
program: how would we provide privacy for the masses?

-- Christian Huitema


--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg
--------------28D766D3C9569690A933B290-- From nobody Mon Aug 17 02:20:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E363A1444 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 02:20:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sinodun.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D1lIL4KfYr-2 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 02:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 521D23A1400 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 02:20:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sinodun.com ; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=m8r0t7ZUttiFFKsZTvDJB8Gnm/HYVbeGXDHCH2jJPvI=; b=OPJLwlAZHUG24OflMUjdyR87Fh OJkhlTiKVcPNSGpsRZSG/i8lAFaJSieHSAPjujmINuZOVwDLzmA1/4qD3Zz0FdgVzLbqlgBxqHtvg IpYXDulDo9q8g1Vqb+sLev42Hd/zeVJaTs5oj13hKp8lKfwf9Q82q0z86iDXOennVlG6UvhziGmDQ 892Dmxb9P1/1tdw9U+uqgfVUGbYU6uOQ3ywc9CvtFVU1oFwza5YMnZW7C8cKhyER9qoSrDBDmd1Qx gtiqTJOpM9vmt8B90mzmdSBscrdqkMTUQ61baaJHqfQ8bTOkFw6n8wkyBK1Er/G2CrY78s/9r9XR0 Q/ARp0lQ==; Received: from [2a02:8010:6126:0:f878:7484:76fb:ad8f] (port=62430) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1k7bJF-000087-F0 for Pearg@irtf.org; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:20:09 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Message-Id: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:20:03 +0100 To: Pearg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: [Pearg] Call for Adoption: Personal Information Tagging for Logs (draft-rao-pitfol-02) X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:20:16 -0000 Hi All,=20 This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal = Information Tagging for Logs=E2=80=99. The draft is available at: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rao-pitfol-02 Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption = by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. This call for adoption ends on 31st August 2020. Sara.=20= From nobody Fri Aug 21 05:12:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C713A08C3 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 05:12:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PMgQcTVzA0AH for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 05:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B762E3A08C1 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pp7Oj67olqYR3qt95FzDjN9cFTIJDW9b6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for Adoption: Personal Information Tagging for Logs (draft-rao-pitfol-02) X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 12:12:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --pp7Oj67olqYR3qt95FzDjN9cFTIJDW9b6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="M3UbTEZYf80IqMgB0HW5j1syxcGeZFn4G"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Sara Dickinson , Pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <1a12980d-27f3-e4e4-1c31-00c7c4831a9c@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for Adoption: Personal Information Tagging for Logs (draft-rao-pitfol-02) References: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> In-Reply-To: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> --M3UbTEZYf80IqMgB0HW5j1syxcGeZFn4G Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------183ADFBCC819F86061D32F7C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------183ADFBCC819F86061D32F7C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 17/08/2020 10:20, Sara Dickinson wrote: > Hi All, >=20 > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal > Information Tagging for Logs=E2=80=99. The draft is available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rao-pitfol-02 >=20 > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for > adoption by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your > view. I read the draft and support adoption - it's a good topic for the RG and an ok starting point. I've two high level comments:- - I hope that the work planned here will include some testing of the efficacy of the approach being proposed and not just defining something in the hope that it might help. In particular I think this work requires that there exist some good way(s) to identify what needs to be tagged, and I'm not sure if that's true today. IOW the existence of an effective way to spot what needs tagging, without too many errors, is a prerequisite for this work to be useful, so I'd hope the intent is to demonstrate that before the draft became an RFC. - I'm not really convinced that static or semi-static sensitivity classifications are a good idea. ISTM that privacy leaks are often cumulative so while a single MAC address in a single log entry might be at level 4 (as proposed in the document), if that same MAC address appears in enough places over enough time, then it is really far more sensitive, esp. if it is correlated anywhere with e.g. a name. I don't have a better proposal myself though, but that seems like a good thing for the RG to consider. Cheers, S. >=20 > This call for adoption ends on 31st August 2020. >=20 > Sara. >=20 --------------183ADFBCC819F86061D32F7C Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s__TBWZVdK-Q for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE5DB3A0789 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id h10so529298ioq.6 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:54:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; 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X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531BFj9HknECzdWaexbGFDodVZgmyKeOz9Ry1ERKJ8fw4EugkHwn QmVylvXh1q8xXh+i2IKhCfClYsJchV3JCrkQCCxOlcHWkvDw3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8QNATGviP/MnpLJwhn8CXTh4aaqY+QKYoKUEZ5tE6xeydkxwLc+G/8Iyj/tCRZtkAsuUEc8ftA2tkqDJjHcU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:12ce:: with SMTP id v14mr7290212jas.28.1598518484921; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:54:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> In-Reply-To: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> From: tirumal reddy Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 14:24:33 +0530 Message-ID: To: Sara Dickinson Cc: Pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075f3f005add8168c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for Adoption: Personal Information Tagging for Logs (draft-rao-pitfol-02) X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:54:47 -0000 --00000000000075f3f005add8168c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support adoption of the draft. -Tiru On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 14:50, Sara Dickinson wrote: > Hi All, > > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal > Information Tagging for Logs=E2=80=99. The draft is available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rao-pitfol-02 > > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption > by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. > > This call for adoption ends on 31st August 2020. > > Sara. > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > --00000000000075f3f005add8168c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support adoption of= the draft.


-Tiru


On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 14:50, Sara Dickinson <sara@sinodun.com> wrote:
Hi All,

This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal I= nformation Tagging for Logs=E2=80=99. The draft is available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rao-pitfol-02

Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption by= PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view.

This call for adoption ends on 31st August 2020.

Sara.
--
Pearg mailing list
Pearg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg
--00000000000075f3f005add8168c-- From nobody Thu Aug 27 01:55:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13963A0789 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:55:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sinodun.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Le5aNViZQk3S for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C35D3A0796 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:55:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sinodun.com ; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=5tv5A0+96YzJkLXC5DlNnQ3N76R6KEX3Pr6Fu+Uiesw=; b=DB4tcaapfs0RrgVxczblQl9NWY dMx5JU9/5/SX+Q0DNSuMMnUwcw26yDwFhkZoJD+lYS1O/DgmXq8CImWfa5uHJx7ngi5FRf5aVagXZ eyXAGlozsUnIBL8/rN0e9jge9NdmGivPDx8kmYFPAmzvQwNzYLG7EV5plsvnOKO2ctx0V3BtPFK1b 6B/N+lvUnMzcqhv91kk7oTUplmWsjAjWiPsFU0mhAzC3Zt12w0NYZKiyDL1YN+z2jx15ECi1xTihR kxUIZBvYDt5axfJYA3TTBAp+IZ5/6Q6omn+8uwFFIPBE7oH1k+4i+GP+vuDjRQHaAhAQlSBRCB4LT cL2fkZAQ==; Received: from [2a02:8010:6126:0:ecd8:74fb:70b4:c30a] (port=49735) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1kBDgi-0006eG-Aj for Pearg@irtf.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:55:20 +0100 From: Sara Dickinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:55:13 +0100 References: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> To: Pearg@irtf.org In-Reply-To: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for Adoption: Personal Information Tagging for Logs (draft-rao-pitfol-02) X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:55:25 -0000 Hi All,=20 This is just a reminder that the CFA on this draft ends next Monday = (31st August). We=E2=80=99ve only had one response so far (thank you = Stephen!) so please consider reviewing and providing comments! Best regards Sara.=20 > On 17 Aug 2020, at 10:20, Sara Dickinson wrote: >=20 > Hi All,=20 >=20 > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal = Information Tagging for Logs=E2=80=99. The draft is available at: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rao-pitfol-02 >=20 > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for = adoption by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your = view. >=20 > This call for adoption ends on 31st August 2020. >=20 > Sara.=20 > --=20 > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg From nobody Thu Aug 27 02:02:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BA03A0818 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 02:02:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 53zryC8-aulh for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 02:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9AFE3A090D for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 02:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1kBDnr-0003Z5-Fm for pearg@irtf.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:02:41 +0200 To: pearg@irtf.org References: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> From: Niels ten Oever Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtC1OaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPGxpc3RzQGRpZ2l0YWxkaXNzaWRlbnRzLm9yZz6JAj8EEwEIACkFAlgvB3YCGyMF CQlmAYAHCwkIBwMCAQYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRAO2D86RorIs56yD/44BSJvKnjH ex0nhPDI9nIJlzlnypa4qsniy0obG5GRbVRikT1E1xaz7VBoPs39hCywoIWd6p0hs1PG1Tcj WV0GwNKRt90PPEh6iNJSGjV2Aq3IlME/aUViD9008yfbRSqfsnPXLW1kpCoZNaOSNzpURoM9 OkVU/z4LSLD61SfFFByBne/GkJKt96/fcspBif1GPC//63ZKFrDqQ9JFR6dECAmsKv7baayz MTv3wrTcqpuHcqJIv4vTm8IPx1QiGgEvrMwsPZz/vx8bMdxxxHWgCcbrt+0b3tRzq9ATZwG3 xDiwnJgKd+ioZOC/b5sY69721sqwBmWYyXWVqtqt01xIgNZjr/wixam+l1bTGUgj0rwPWJWx +7Whe25ff+mNNW/UQeCBjZlxoxAJWSr1Pp3n+SQKQ4TLs8wIwHZtcVCffepfHd47CEbnR8Kc Tjm3tlKzSWq4zcUy6BaxHfgn9+HaAM7fwLqx9/WAtSfdmLXJTN+Swy0w/slakD75jl2o7U3e ETjoYQWt+306X2Uly/0ge7VEQ4ySmmbru6U5ainGE95gjsc++s+hvKmMuGYL3h4ijE1RSe/k wgM6/Z1B6JosssdX+KRuuk2A4FHGbcee8LUIJ3C36qyI7s6PJBXi6SjIPN0wpx30P/DUf/Lr o5lmHF03qQ5eeqI8lDwIobWlJbkCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolY ytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fxj+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9 bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHwyIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3I YKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVOBR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21u r+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8ITaNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBa FUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZtPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rm rH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJHE8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hj dfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCVaTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGK qqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLe DS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwODyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0B k2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9M beKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvbgB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy 3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/ DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9Oy1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAF onmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDvLwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCE HOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWvKKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723q MBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiGpWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S 9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJBX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV 3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3 LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJT y/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <073e19ba-32d6-72aa-597e-80eb5e360d51@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:02:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a2d32f98be707cbcda8602d5fffa976a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for Adoption: Personal Information Tagging for Logs (draft-rao-pitfol-02) X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:02:50 -0000 I support adoption of this draft. I think this could be extremely useful in the production and usage of datasets based on logs. Best, Niels On 8/27/20 10:54 AM, tirumal reddy wrote: > I support adoption of the draft. > > > -Tiru > > > On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 14:50, Sara Dickinson > wrote: > > Hi All, > > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal Information Tagging for Logs’. The draft is available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rao-pitfol-02 > > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. > > This call for adoption ends on 31st August 2020. > > Sara. > -- > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg > > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate - DATACTIVE Research Group - University of Amsterdam Postdoctoral Scholar (abd) - Communications Department - Texas A&M University Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Thu Aug 27 02:33:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8993A084C for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 02:33:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RZjV6Rs5rIO8 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 02:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (relay7-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8B883A080C for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 02:33:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 89.160.53.229 Received: from [10.200.0.103] (89-160-53-229.cust.bredband2.com [89.160.53.229]) (Authenticated sender: amelia@andersdotter.cc) by relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DAE532000E for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:32:57 +0000 (UTC) To: pearg@irtf.org References: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> <073e19ba-32d6-72aa-597e-80eb5e360d51@digitaldissidents.org> Reply-To: amelia.ietf@andersdotter.cc From: Amelia Andersdotter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:30:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <073e19ba-32d6-72aa-597e-80eb5e360d51@digitaldissidents.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Call for Adoption: Personal Information Tagging for Logs (draft-rao-pitfol-02) X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:33:04 -0000 i support adoption of this draft. /a On 2020-08-27 11:02, Niels ten Oever wrote: > I support adoption of this draft. I think this could be extremely useful in the production and usage of datasets based on logs. > > Best, > > Niels > > On 8/27/20 10:54 AM, tirumal reddy wrote: >> I support adoption of the draft. >> >> >> -Tiru >> >> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 14:50, Sara Dickinson > wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal Information Tagging for Logs’. The draft is available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rao-pitfol-02 >> >> Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adoption by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. >> >> This call for adoption ends on 31st August 2020. >> >> Sara. >> -- >> Pearg mailing list >> Pearg@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg >> >> -- ^\...~...~...~...~...~.../^ Amelia Andersdotter IETF SHMOO WG Co-Chair https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/shmoo/about/ Director of Strategic Initiatives, CENTR www.centr.org ^\...~...~...~...~...~.../^ From nobody Thu Aug 27 04:27:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152AA3A0BC5 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 04:27:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 27 Aug 2020 07:27:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-232-g4bdb081-fm-20200825.002-g4bdb081a Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> References: <6DEE1D7C-0C69-4446-AC93-E47D8862BEC7@sinodun.com> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 21:27:20 +1000 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=1d6829bc73114d14915a831cf0752091 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_Adoption=3A_Personal_Information_Tagg?= =?utf-8?q?ing_for_Logs_=28draft-rao-pitfol-02=29?= X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:27:44 -0000 --1d6829bc73114d14915a831cf0752091 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support the adoption of this concept and this document. A mini review: With my developer hat on, I don't find the document particularly actiona= ble - it has an example, but otherwise doesn't clearly articulate how an= d what to store. This level of specification is fine if you control all the parts of the = system, but at that point this document collapses just being to an entre= aty to have an obfuscation layer. If this is supposed to interoperate b= etween systems by different vendors or within different scopes of contro= l, it should be more rigorous in defining exact structure. I was also confused by the table of specific items and levels of protect= ion required - it seems both incomplete and somewhat arbitrary in the se= nsitivity levels given to different fields - and definitely the final fo= rm of this document will need to refer to an IANA registry or some other= location at which a canonical list of known items can be found. Regarding that format - if I was designing something like this I would h= ave: * name:"CONTAINSPII_personName:Joe Blogs" from that table be written to = the log - something like that - prefixing the value such that the format= s didn't change at all, and the tagging stayed with the value. Anything doing redaction would redact every unknown CONTAINSPII_{Name}, = and have a lookup table to decide whether to redact known items. This a= voids encoding specific PII levels into the log format itself and keeps = the tagging with the value through many more conversions (though I do ad= mit it fails on non-string fields). I may be missing something here tho= ugh. Cheers, Bron. On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, at 19:20, Sara Dickinson wrote: > Hi All,=20 >=20 > This email starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal = Information Tagging for Logs=E2=80=99. The draft is available at: https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rao-pitfol-02 >=20 > Please review this draft to see if you think it is suitable for adopti= on by PEARG and send comments to the list, clearly stating your view. >=20 > This call for adoption ends on 31st August 2020. >=20 > Sara.=20 > --=20 > Pearg mailing list > Pearg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg >=20 -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --1d6829bc73114d14915a831cf0752091 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support the adoption of this concept and this document.<= br>

A mini review:
With my developer hat on, I don= 't find the document particularly actionable - it has an example, but ot= herwise doesn't clearly articulate how and what to store.

This level of specification is fine if you control all the parts of the= system, but at that point this document collapses just being to an entr= eaty to have an obfuscation layer.  If this is supposed to interope= rate between systems by different vendors or within different scopes of = control, it should be more rigorous in defining exact structure.

I was also confused by the table of specific items and levels of= protection required - it seems both incomplete and somewhat arbitrary i= n the sensitivity levels given to different fields - and definitely the = final form of this document will need to refer to an IANA registry or so= me other location at which a canonical list of known items can be found.=

Regarding that format - if I was designing something lik= e this I would have:
* name:"= CONTAINSPII_personName:Joe Blogs" from that table be written to the log = - something like that - prefixing the value such that the formats didn't= change at all, and the tagging stayed with the value.

An= ything doing redaction would redact every unknown CONTAINSPII_{Name}, an= d have a lookup table to decide whether to redact known items.  Thi= s avoids encoding specific PII levels into the log format itself and kee= ps the tagging with the value through many more conversions (though I do= admit it fails on non-string fields).  I may be missing something = here though.

Cheers,

Bron.

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, at 19:20, S= ara Dickinson wrote:
Hi All, 

This em= ail starts a two week Call for Adoption of the draft 'Personal Informati= on Tagging for Logs=E2=80=99. The draft is available at: https://tools.ietf.org= /html/draft-rao-pitfol-02

Please review this draft to= see if you think it is suitable for adoption by PEARG and send comments= to the list, clearly stating your view.

This call for ad= option ends on 31st August 2020.

Sara. 
-- 
Pearg mailing list


--
&nb= sp; Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fast= mailteam.com


--1d6829bc73114d14915a831cf0752091-- From nobody Thu Aug 27 05:10:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB383A0C4E for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 05:10:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.845 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.845 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VrquS6bCu5Ja for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 05:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F1023A0C4C for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 05:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:965:ec24:6f8a:1aff:81d] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:965:ec24:6f8a:1aff:81d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BCB12836FA; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:10:20 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_T=c3=bcxen?= , tsv-art@ietf.org Cc: pearg@irtf.org, draft-irtf-pearg-numeric-ids-generation.all@ietf.org References: <159680292803.8931.4890868238678597521@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <44fcae41-96d8-d0e4-5b8e-cd4419a516a4@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:10:08 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159680292803.8931.4890868238678597521@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Tsvart early review of draft-irtf-pearg-numeric-ids-generation-02 X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:10:26 -0000 Hi, Michael, Thanks a lot for your feedback! In-line... On 7/8/20 09:22, Michael Tüxen via Datatracker wrote: > Reviewer: Michael Tüxen > Review result: Ready with Issues > > The document is well written, provides algorithms which could be used to > address identified problems. One could add some text covering TCP timestamps. You mean e.g. to spell out which of the proposed algorithms one might use for TCP timestamps? > Section 1 states: > "Recent history indicates that when new protocols are standardized or > new protocol implementations are produced, the security and privacy > properties of the associated identifiers tend to be overlooked,..." > How does this related to recent/current activities like SCTP/DTLS or QUIC? SCTP (RFC4960) is similar to TCP, in this respect. OTOH, I have only skimmed through the DTLS (RFC6347), and it seems that it initially sets sequence numbers to 0. -- while these are meant to be protected, I'm curious if they could have done with monotonically increasing sequence numbers ala 6528, or with a random origin. > The Algorithms in 7.1.1 and 7.1.2 can be substantially simplified when > check_suitable_id() always returns true. Why are not the simplified algorithms > shown? Are you referring to the case where an implementation need not check the generated ID against other existing I-Ds? (FWIW, in order for check_suitable_id()to always return "true", it means that there are essentially no requirements on the ID -- just pick any random number... at which point, there's not really much of an algorithm ( Section 7.1.1 and Section 7.1.2 cover "recovery" strategies for the cases where the algorithm finds collisions. > The algorithm in 7.3 (and later) uses a function F and it is stated that F must > be a cryptographically-secure hash function. Couldn't you also use something > like SipHash. Siphash *has* been employed for generating IDs.. although it seems that the 64-bits versions are considered too weak. see e.g. https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/patch/1083206/ > When reading the algorithm in 7.4.1, I had the impression that it should also > work with id_inc > 1 (by just changing that parameter). If that is true, I > guess you would need to change "if (next_id == max_id)" to "if (max_id - > next_id < id_inc) {" and also "next_id = min_id;" to "next_id = min_id + > (id_inc - (max_id - next_id + 1));". If you don't want to be that generic, you > might want to remove id_inc and just use 1. You raise a very good point. I'm curious whether it might make sense to include the most generic version (as you suggest), and then also show the simplified version when id_inc=1 ? Thoughts? Also, we may want to note that, while using increments of "1" reduces the reuse frequency, in principle id_inc does not even need to be constant... -- in this case, since the failure severity is "hard errors", one probably ones to keep id_inc small, to reduce the ID resuse frequency. > The algorithm in 7.4.1 also calls "store_counter(CONTEXT, next_id)" when > returning ERROR. Why? At least with the current increment values, if the algorithm iterates over count = max_id - min_id + 1; values (i.e., between the range min_id and max_id, the value to be stored would be the same one as originally found, so it's actually a no-op. I will remove it. > The algorithms given before 9.4 are given in C code. The Algorithm in 9.4 > breaks with this rule. Is this intended? Are you referring to this line: linear(CONTEXT_2)= linear(CONTEXT_2) + increment(); ? If so, I'll try to find a replacements that's C-compatible and that's still clear... Thanks! Regards, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Aug 27 06:08:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998E23A0819 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 06:08:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rec-d3fC-Euo for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 06:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32A483A084A for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 06:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id m22so6335434ljj.5 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 06:08:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0EjoH/4tqqYVFvuboezU+TQSQsYxRNUu4Auh4PD7uCQ=; b=phueja2Qzba8ZipiP5saXPluFYaonlwafcXQieHEy8tl7QC8w+c0y1OgWTYXH0GvEa 5DW22VG58jVyedx4nlu9t0/Pkx8F0CnnF+2/ViStycpfhmQ56F0h+3TG7rsInbbWu13y 0juZxE5DKP+BBZ02/chYwfcI1QGWZ/+/BJ0Kdj2cpxxpB3MYkBAES1Uh6ff1JXpX0/Vw IWrqMOSVvojv3XWbtAXTp9yDSw/JiDOHxa/LLNSYVFabYSV1ggzgsEAIJi8rtp1ylb8A W98wetOe+fvFi/MyrIpSHlcDy1uAVPTprYm1Ptl4sMCfUPxD17nUwGI5YlO6bDQLa5av eVNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0EjoH/4tqqYVFvuboezU+TQSQsYxRNUu4Auh4PD7uCQ=; b=H9nHb0qSjzMFl7yGoOJ7elsnk5DXKY8VDhRvqHcmVoOSEeIKJHe0Mes5tFXkg8aPVb woaTp97uaf/T63F0c7Y8XsRI1aRdAvPp3L+rXsBk1H6Vt/tVWV0LY/z6SXrdy57v3TjI GmG9eP3QobGpP4ydYgYDgMm7GjL3cedVnHv7VTAzlJx5dGn8cWNgS3r7nNJHNzh39Hte BDOZ5EIXN6qB5Zj4kmDdOYKh6yr/pyOlt8TAJQG/gvg+2QQ6SKuB5HXbGdIX+KF3dhT8 Nz/hBgowG36BSizcIiHCavErqaRv6weGZitWoJbChcRM9p2V6PePxo2VcIxSNwKEvN+t 40uA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iswCHTfcWD13FNPZTHh00yOlHacO+fWJAqsi/LNyyXVqyhPqH n7zyjtxSFgsDCDiYxNXJN3IeDKry5hwooY5pV7VvDg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKlA0i5qGdpSuylWxFk6xOstg1qb2UR8NlPUdO86G+DflDc/SQkVhcxwQYO3Xdp8nLqkjA3IgLF1JNl3FxkrA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:908a:: with SMTP id l10mr9177759ljg.409.1598533703185; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159680292803.8931.4890868238678597521@ietfa.amsl.com> <44fcae41-96d8-d0e4-5b8e-cd4419a516a4@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <44fcae41-96d8-d0e4-5b8e-cd4419a516a4@si6networks.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 06:07:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_T=C3=BCxen?= , tsv-art@ietf.org, draft-irtf-pearg-numeric-ids-generation.all@ietf.org, pearg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a7e5205addba1f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pearg] Tsvart early review of draft-irtf-pearg-numeric-ids-generation-02 X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:08:43 -0000 --0000000000008a7e5205addba1f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 5:10 AM Fernando Gont wrote= : > Hi, Michael, > > Thanks a lot for your feedback! In-line... > > On 7/8/20 09:22, Michael T=C3=BCxen via Datatracker wrote: > > Reviewer: Michael T=C3=BCxen > > Review result: Ready with Issues > > > > The document is well written, provides algorithms which could be used t= o > > address identified problems. One could add some text covering TCP > timestamps. > > You mean e.g. to spell out which of the proposed algorithms one might > use for TCP timestamps? > > > > Section 1 states: > > "Recent history indicates that when new protocols are standardized or > > new protocol implementations are produced, the security and privacy > > properties of the associated identifiers tend to be overlooked,..." > > How does this related to recent/current activities like SCTP/DTLS or > QUIC? > > SCTP (RFC4960) is similar to TCP, in this respect. OTOH, I have only > skimmed through the DTLS (RFC6347), and it seems that it initially sets > sequence numbers to 0. -- while these are meant to be protected, I'm > curious if they could have done with monotonically increasing sequence > numbers ala 6528, or with a random origin. > We perhaps could have, but to our knowledge the security functionality of the protocol does not depend on unpredictability of the Record Sequence Number. The same is true of QUIC. Note that both QUIC and DTLS 1.3 protect this portion of the header (QUIC calls it the Packet Number). -Ekr --0000000000008a7e5205addba1f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 5:10 AM Ferna= ndo Gont <fgont@si6networks.com= > wrote:
= Hi, Michael,

Thanks a lot for your feedback! In-line...

On 7/8/20 09:22, Michael T=C3=BCxen via Datatracker wrote:
> Reviewer: Michael T=C3=BCxen
> Review result: Ready with Issues
>
> The document is well written, provides algorithms which could be used = to
> address identified problems. One=C2=A0 could add some text covering TC= P timestamps.

You mean e.g. to spell out which of the proposed algorithms one might
use for TCP timestamps?


> Section 1 states:
> "Recent history indicates that when new protocols are standardize= d or
> new protocol implementations are produced, the security and privacy > properties of the associated identifiers tend to be overlooked,...&quo= t;
> How does this related to recent/current activities like SCTP/DTLS or Q= UIC?

SCTP (RFC4960) is similar to TCP, in this respect. OTOH, I have only
skimmed through the DTLS (RFC6347), and it seems that it initially sets sequence numbers to 0. -- while these are meant to be protected, I'm curious if they could have done with monotonically increasing sequence
numbers ala 6528, or with a random origin.

<= div>We perhaps could have, but to our knowledge the security functionality = of the protocol does not depend on unpredictability of the Record Sequence = Number. The same is true of QUIC. Note that both QUIC and DTLS 1.3 protect = this portion of the header (QUIC calls it the Packet Number).

-Ekr


--0000000000008a7e5205addba1f0--