From nobody Mon Jan 28 15:36:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9589C130EEA for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2019 15:36:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=quantonium-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zL7qoTokGhvv for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2019 15:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x136.google.com (mail-it1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 131CF130EE8 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2019 15:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x136.google.com with SMTP id a6so1308761itl.4 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2019 15:36:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quantonium-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cC9yDB0/l23UmZP5bGcuocnCNbFOwU/ZAXmrIycPDeo=; b=Wthh2dmdwrdcUjNE35+Mndh5B7jrLWmeQvbbdTrrWxrDSAwNpkSLEezMX7fs6BG/19 HW+pGfFUNqDHt1E/+twv9IwQbjMvPdOOkzd/sNrI2+AdGjGmdPea67nmn0BFivmzpHSr tFQla0ikHpIPDo83Zt1YAlNYKkZD5ZQ3tF2+2LfgYphls7fDf+v5M2IWyvq8B/0J1NNJ aL95f3QXy7hK8hW5Pah3TzRMdm3yqDV6fo+GANhuIziVUC99owUfu9+JcgsFGB0TV5bj 8Ep9nIaFoHTarFCYRyBgSOqa0fqdx0MNrda/IDQlNunNf+Kg1JYy2Fxiwh8fjNSHUNsu 7B5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cC9yDB0/l23UmZP5bGcuocnCNbFOwU/ZAXmrIycPDeo=; b=IwezJbcZZg+ZhJvelcsow7prRwz8uMIqVkQejyVo+jmzuFrisCDmydNZCf7XEBTifQ RRtTz/W0fnqTRVlWgHRjfodMGZK4EYxRbsMvNjHWcJ0yQAzxuD4fBs4ln0YK26HsqZvK jGnoyHPPaIPmIpbQ0TZnUJ6gi+w95D95cjIrWXXiZHDtLDSAZwigzX/mJGwCobcXPgq1 cqOWKUwBSj+3WuGGWJMSvbg8KPFSxQ+QgPXZ2f7YqSkSAAZhN2P53g/IstPHXE325cLl Roi04FY9wl6vkjd3SAb4l9xpt8Zr8J8RD2ZMdfW9Ga7BZVBrQIbvL5mJipXe/KGRtxAg Z12A== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUuke2L8tJRxtXc9U1ZGIZwHItQCzJi1b4tSoDNY1m2bTSKzPJJ3ga NmuFLZN8uIV5wF5Ct52NYiKHyGaOwA4gE+WTnP5CCQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6oTAjZv4ugCPOx/k/tGe8ziKkdq2U1OZLR7kZV4XuQA3gnJ2kI2wHWVrubSecsmozBQDdfVYPy5rc6DjFUtCI= X-Received: by 2002:a02:5944:: with SMTP id p65mr14343937jab.3.1548718577183; Mon, 28 Jan 2019 15:36:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 15:36:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: dmm , pidloc@ietf.org Cc: Vikram Siwach Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Pidloc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 23:36:21 -0000 Hello, We've posted a first draft of Address Mapping System (AMS). We anticipate that this can be applied to mobile networks to provide optimized overlay routing. In particular, this design provides for anchorless routing (in the form of anchor bypass) and otherwise facilitates meeting several requirements for optimizing the mobile user plane as described in section 1.0 of draft-bogineni-dmm-optimized-mobile-user-plane-01. AMS is agnostic to the underlaying overlay protocol and should be compatible with most of those being discussed. Another goal of AMS is to not require replacing exsiting control planes, but can work in concert with them. For example, the draft discusses how AMS might work with 5G. Tom ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 3:15 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt To: Vikram Siwach A new version of I-D, draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-herbert-intarea-ams Revision: 00 Title: Address Mapping System Document date: 2019-01-28 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 47 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-intarea-ams/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams Abstract: This document describes the Address Mapping System that is a generic, extensible, and scalable system for mapping network addresses to other network addresses. The Address Mapping System is intended to be used in conjunction with overlay techniques which facilitate transmission of packets across overlay networks. Information returned by the Address Mapping System can include the particular network overlay method and instructions related to the method. The Address Mapping System has a number of potential use cases networking including identifier-locator protocols, network virtualization, and promotion of privacy. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Tue Jan 29 07:39:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A086D124B0C; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 07:35:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NFr628rTRYdl; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 07:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41323123FFD; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 07:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id x0TFZYBR013027; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:35:35 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-08.nos.boeing.com (xch16-07-08.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.110]) by clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id x0TFZTUI011679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:35:29 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-08.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.110) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1591.10; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 07:35:28 -0800 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1591.012; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 07:35:28 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Tom Herbert , dmm , "pidloc@ietf.org" CC: Vikram Siwach Thread-Topic: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUt2KfWlx/WWYcSkyzsVamPdto6KXGYSAA Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 15:35:27 +0000 Message-ID: <7be91a164bda4144a12c6c693bae7106@boeing.com> References: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 33E3CF613FD2BC0ED191FB41BCDE9B893FBF7236FBA6D2C265269B80499ABD422000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 07:39:24 -0800 Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 15:35:40 -0000 Hi Tom, I read it, and I do not think it is different from the system described in 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp'. Fred > -----Original Message----- > From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 3:36 PM > To: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org > Cc: Vikram Siwach > Subject: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-am= s-00.txt >=20 > Hello, >=20 > We've posted a first draft of Address Mapping System (AMS). We > anticipate that this can be applied to mobile networks to provide > optimized overlay routing. In particular, this design provides for > anchorless routing (in the form of anchor bypass) and otherwise > facilitates meeting several requirements for optimizing the mobile > user plane as described in section 1.0 of > draft-bogineni-dmm-optimized-mobile-user-plane-01. AMS is agnostic to > the underlaying overlay protocol and should be compatible with most of > those being discussed. Another goal of AMS is to not require replacing > exsiting control planes, but can work in concert with them. For > example, the draft discusses how AMS might work with 5G. >=20 > Tom >=20 > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 3:15 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > To: Vikram Siwach >=20 >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-herbert-intarea-ams > Revision: 00 > Title: Address Mapping System > Document date: 2019-01-28 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 47 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-intarea-am= s/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-intar= ea-ams >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes the Address Mapping System that is a generic, > extensible, and scalable system for mapping network addresses to > other network addresses. The Address Mapping System is intended to be > used in conjunction with overlay techniques which facilitate > transmission of packets across overlay networks. Information returned > by the Address Mapping System can include the particular network > overlay method and instructions related to the method. The Address > Mapping System has a number of potential use cases networking > including identifier-locator protocols, network virtualization, and > promotion of privacy. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dmm mailing list > dmm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm From nobody Tue Jan 29 08:26:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6D9130EC8 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:23:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lZzSSTkG04eS for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:23:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A267130EA8 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:23:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id x0TGNcLc017343; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:23:39 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-12.nos.boeing.com (xch16-07-12.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.114]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id x0TGNWPQ016114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:23:32 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-12.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1591.10; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:23:29 -0800 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1591.012; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:23:29 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: "pidloc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp-01.txt Thread-Index: AdS37Z8bsoEIFE6un0CepPdDx/jyhAAAVKAg Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 16:23:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <487617b90a7142738e8e3dcd19677fb3@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <487617b90a7142738e8e3dcd19677fb3@boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: C94B9F7BC72728D0798F48D367389641FFC0410EC41AB937CD8863C8D9C92F292000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:26:02 -0800 Subject: [Pidloc] FW: I-D Action: draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp-01.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 16:23:49 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Templin (US), Fred L Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:14 AM To: dmm Subject: Re: [DMM] I-D Action: draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp-01.txt Hi, here is what essentially amounts to a condensed version of 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp' (7 pages) for the purpose of emphasizing scaling= properties and showing that the system applies to numerous use cases and not just civi= l aviation. This shows how a BGP overlay can service as many as 1B de-aggregated mobile= network prefixes in support of a DMM distributed anchoring environment. We intend t= o discuss this on the rtgwg list (cc'd here) with the intention of seeking wg adoptio= n there. Thanks - Fred -----Original Message----- From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of inte= rnet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:01 AM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp-01.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : Scalable De-Aggregation for Overlays Using the Bo= rder Gateway Protocol (BGP) Authors : Fred L. Templin Greg Saccone Gaurav Dawra Acee Lindem Victor Moreno Filename : draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp-01.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2019-01-29 Abstract: The Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) has well-known limitations in terms of the numbers of routes that can be carried and stability of the routing system. This is especially true when mobile nodes frequently change their network attachment points, which in the past has resulted in excessive announcements and withdrawals of de-aggregated prefixes. This document discusses a means of accommodating scalable de-aggregation of IPv6 prefixes for overlay networks using BGP. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt _______________________________________________ dmm mailing list dmm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm From nobody Tue Jan 29 08:33:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14D7130E59 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:33:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=quantonium-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KrxrkigBEhjT for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x132.google.com (mail-it1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40B3E130E30 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x132.google.com with SMTP id m8so14248698itk.0 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:33:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quantonium-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Y4/s89U/i58QIJSLvn3HR7OLAEohcBEsAfdiAwWD6EY=; b=ZuZJ2a+MogG0rcFAWlk7OoMlc1UFdHdlHidAVLc12OY5YwzFakQ1fM/RsPg44oHHdw UFetxcBbtN7DgG6qlRzYPrD2Qfk671ArW2fuwZfJIGlYd6BpCVF3QcTXiDsnifEWgGKE kEnre85FbBl2xRaET8PNSTaSpgTw9zxccmVd4HvgOeT/nJ0JEpS3xTmwsntTG8vlU14V b3nrHigfwyvLlXprHrriicxtgD0STpKC9yN/dII2+pfQkd6fgjB+CyOyKdAOP9h94nuk rZx5cR45RZNhFjJT21bmzXVGOuC8yFBKtSqb9hXJWJ/G7vlr93nCVI0ti6pnq0kOv3yN SZcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Y4/s89U/i58QIJSLvn3HR7OLAEohcBEsAfdiAwWD6EY=; b=ClDcsQMq44KM0XraDHWO2ARhS2xXjMVmWs7hN89OHWM7Mcx1SVcQltiPxL6XFxJBV/ Gx7HH5/NYQ/zoYP6tVk1cSMO3wNQ91/IqMjzbBGXbxIwXDT1dNLKuDMzUhGpS5VGdvpU RlCGfs7QEW/k0F9y4Kqc+o6Qc25vsJ3xs0TMMP+Ddzl4qj5CBvzcq1nh8vrrBAhlEthr QE2UTyV9mqmvCpUG0W9xxrRtn8CqcnKYhJhCsIKE+xVDWGvRL29A5vKjLPNdJ5rtvzhl XKt4Jl6VTo5sH8wI99YB9ratnGiHtpeRqtj67+5upDUBGCytR9eS2xA4qtRxplAMfLsG MUaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcgQrTRWZ9qzCfaNT8tdKnIISuLOC3REwKkqRzj3VULuIHgvLIn cZp5fQc2NwUDE2LP9XF7maUN7xAHdoPV3vd/3V6sPA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5LvDerDFalDoJloK3vEGkajZx8DkxqUmiUDDJg21dABd/LMyqW9/IxbkGLTbulttR/2HZ6Qx7ODlKuxAYZB40= X-Received: by 2002:a02:5944:: with SMTP id p65mr16220739jab.3.1548779598288; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:33:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7be91a164bda4144a12c6c693bae7106@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <7be91a164bda4144a12c6c693bae7106@boeing.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:33:07 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Cc: dmm , "pidloc@ietf.org" , Vikram Siwach Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 16:33:22 -0000 On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 7:35 AM Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > I read it, and I do not think it is different from the system described > in 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp'. > Hi Fred, Thanks for the comment. I have read draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp also. I think that the hub and spoke architecture will end up being similar, but I'm not sure that this is exactly the same thing. One difference is that draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp is targeted to particular application, whereas draft-herbert-intarea-ams endeavours to be general purposes. There are differences especially in scalability. For instance, rtgwg-atn-bgp mentions network with millions of routes, and in draft-herbert-intarea-ams the target is to support networks with billions of active addresses for IoT networks. And if we do get to unique address per flow, then the total number of addresses to be managed is much more (hence why hidden aggregation becomes interesting). Another consideration is MEC servers providing services to UEs at they edge. If they participate in the routing/mapping system (as an ASBR-s in draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp and AMS-F in AMS) then the end device can perform overlay routing itself. That is very efficient for lowest latency. There may be many MEC servers and each one might only be communicating with a small subset of all possible nodes. This seems to motivate a working set cache to that limits the number of mappings as well as the amount of control plane communications. Tom > Fred > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 3:36 PM > > To: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org > > Cc: Vikram Siwach > > Subject: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > Hello, > > > > We've posted a first draft of Address Mapping System (AMS). We > > anticipate that this can be applied to mobile networks to provide > > optimized overlay routing. In particular, this design provides for > > anchorless routing (in the form of anchor bypass) and otherwise > > facilitates meeting several requirements for optimizing the mobile > > user plane as described in section 1.0 of > > draft-bogineni-dmm-optimized-mobile-user-plane-01. AMS is agnostic to > > the underlaying overlay protocol and should be compatible with most of > > those being discussed. Another goal of AMS is to not require replacing > > exsiting control planes, but can work in concert with them. For > > example, the draft discusses how AMS might work with 5G. > > > > Tom > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > From: > > Date: Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 3:15 PM > > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > To: Vikram Siwach > > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Address Mapping System > > Document date: 2019-01-28 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 47 > > URL: > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-intarea-ams/ > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00 > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > > > > > Abstract: > > This document describes the Address Mapping System that is a generic, > > extensible, and scalable system for mapping network addresses to > > other network addresses. The Address Mapping System is intended to be > > used in conjunction with overlay techniques which facilitate > > transmission of packets across overlay networks. Information returned > > by the Address Mapping System can include the particular network > > overlay method and instructions related to the method. The Address > > Mapping System has a number of potential use cases networking > > including identifier-locator protocols, network virtualization, and > > promotion of privacy. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dmm mailing list > > dmm@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm From nobody Tue Jan 29 08:46:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20ACE130E59; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:46:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aIiwqkr1nW7c; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92AE9130E09; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id x0TGjwwe027902; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:45:59 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-08.nos.boeing.com (xch16-07-08.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.110]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id x0TGjrXV027572 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:45:53 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-08.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.110) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1591.10; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:45:52 -0800 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1591.012; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:45:52 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Tom Herbert CC: dmm , "pidloc@ietf.org" , Vikram Siwach Thread-Topic: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUt2KfWlx/WWYcSkyzsVamPdto6KXGYSAAgACW14D//3tEQA== Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 16:45:52 +0000 Message-ID: <2e0c578499cb4761ac113a264f3992a0@boeing.com> References: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7be91a164bda4144a12c6c693bae7106@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quantonium-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=S1P9lOidc+8/sLvEdc8tHDlpe8XEpU1Ud3SGRbMGvkA=; b=SZ7SwG78lAtB3c/gRE9KUd/424rB+VkgIvcPSwkvBuLNL2Aq1NOvPn8HY51qYg7IHg U0WVzFq/c5xPVY0jtbUfWLpqFvZ1E7ts0iP1m1kWKqymq76FxXGW0JiYZMWRLko9YKgW N8rBxsiTtAHKk84Tl3pp7KHncpoCcQaiINBFWKC2sDOZCnRdAcZWErolpirZhFDkzSsx UqSOaN3PNUXkPzcrZnOnV1IP2XbEsEe2HVK3qMkiYYxv0t4pJ9xCSM3WMnc8cU6fscBu HUYfe2zT/8yteIBQEa6qU30Ci8yVMqEPPk/0j0NzCNqnv1maJni3Y03p7X1uYfG2NQvR 1SBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=S1P9lOidc+8/sLvEdc8tHDlpe8XEpU1Ud3SGRbMGvkA=; b=SmH1FOwdynIHh4+hrS2LDE0cS/GLDSIFWED01VklI9WggXSNWVwMDWv83Tf1mQcOvo DmlXMFgS+QJ+B1jRBAh56yk3M9gkgMbpGiLyNfQfOWppNY8gRer1MmC9O0yKjB3c/GdO 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 17:35:56 -0000 On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 8:46 AM Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > Please read 'draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp' (only 7 pages). It emphasizes > the scalability considerations from 'draft-templin-intarea-6706bis' that we > omitted from 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp', and also shows that the use cases > are not limited to civil aviation. The purpose is to present a condensed > version of the AERO routing system that has been around for many years. > > In 'draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp', we show that a BGP overlay can be > organized to support 1B or more de-aggregated MNP prefixes. So, please > have a look at that with the mindset that we are not addressing just the > civil aviation use case but are broadly considering other use cases. > Okay, thanks for the explanation. It might be helpful if you could recast draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp to be more of a general solution. I looked at draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp. There's a lot discussion about scalability of c-ASBR but not so much about s-ABSR. I'm primarily interested in the latter because that is where the solution will be providing the oprimizations we want for low latency. While with c-ASBRs we could expect them to have scaling properties similar core routers, I would expect that s-ASBR devices will exhibit a lot more variety and have a wider range of scalability. For instance, it's conceivable that we might want the functionality incorporated into a low powered device in the base station of a microcell, or incorporated into MEC servers as I mentioned previously. I assume a BGP solution would require all s-ASBRs to hold all the routes for the sub-MNPs as well as being able to consume the rate of mobile events within the sub-MNP. So to me, the obvious question is if such a device were only communicating with, say, a 1000 nodes at any givent time, then does it really make sense to give them all the information about the 1M or so nodes in the sub-MNP, or can we just give them the information that is currently useful to them? Do you have any thoughts along these lines? Tom > Thanks - Fred > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@quantonium.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:33 AM > > To: Templin (US), Fred L > > Cc: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org; Vikram Siwach > > Subject: Re: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 7:35 AM Templin (US), Fred L > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > I read it, and I do not think it is different from the system described > > > in 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp'. > > > > > Hi Fred, > > > > Thanks for the comment. I have read draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp also. I > > think that the hub and spoke architecture will end up being similar, > > but I'm not sure that this is exactly the same thing. One difference > > is that draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp is targeted to particular > > application, whereas draft-herbert-intarea-ams endeavours to be > > general purposes. There are differences especially in scalability. For > > instance, rtgwg-atn-bgp mentions network with millions of routes, and > > in draft-herbert-intarea-ams the target is to support networks with > > billions of active addresses for IoT networks. And if we do get to > > unique address per flow, then the total number of addresses to be > > managed is much more (hence why hidden aggregation becomes > > interesting). > > > > Another consideration is MEC servers providing services to UEs at they > > edge. If they participate in the routing/mapping system (as an ASBR-s > > in draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp and AMS-F in AMS) then the end device can > > perform overlay routing itself. That is very efficient for lowest > > latency. There may be many MEC servers and each one might only be > > communicating with a small subset of all possible nodes. This seems to > > motivate a working set cache to that limits the number of mappings as > > well as the amount of control plane communications. > > > > Tom > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > > > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 3:36 PM > > > > To: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org > > > > Cc: Vikram Siwach > > > > Subject: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > We've posted a first draft of Address Mapping System (AMS). We > > > > anticipate that this can be applied to mobile networks to provide > > > > optimized overlay routing. In particular, this design provides for > > > > anchorless routing (in the form of anchor bypass) and otherwise > > > > facilitates meeting several requirements for optimizing the mobile > > > > user plane as described in section 1.0 of > > > > draft-bogineni-dmm-optimized-mobile-user-plane-01. AMS is agnostic to > > > > the underlaying overlay protocol and should be compatible with most of > > > > those being discussed. Another goal of AMS is to not require replacing > > > > exsiting control planes, but can work in concert with them. For > > > > example, the draft discusses how AMS might work with 5G. > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > From: > > > > Date: Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 3:15 PM > > > > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > To: Vikram Siwach > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > has been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the > > > > IETF repository. > > > > > > > > Name: draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > > > Revision: 00 > > > > Title: Address Mapping System > > > > Document date: 2019-01-28 > > > > Group: Individual Submission > > > > Pages: 47 > > > > URL: > > > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-intarea-ams/ > > > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00 > > > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstract: > > > > This document describes the Address Mapping System that is a generic, > > > > extensible, and scalable system for mapping network addresses to > > > > other network addresses. The Address Mapping System is intended to be > > > > used in conjunction with overlay techniques which facilitate > > > > transmission of packets across overlay networks. Information returned > > > > by the Address Mapping System can include the particular network > > > > overlay method and instructions related to the method. The Address > > > > Mapping System has a number of potential use cases networking > > > > including identifier-locator protocols, network virtualization, and > > > > promotion of privacy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > > > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > dmm mailing list > > > > dmm@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm From nobody Tue Jan 29 10:25:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813ED130F9C; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:25:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id twUZCnyEQD99; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90148130F9D; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id x0TIPgaY001277; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:25:42 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-11.nos.boeing.com (xch16-07-11.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.113]) by clt-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id x0TIPZVG032322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:25:35 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-11.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.113) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1591.10; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:25:34 -0800 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1591.012; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:25:34 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Tom Herbert CC: Vikram Siwach , "pidloc@ietf.org" , dmm Thread-Topic: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUt2KfWlx/WWYcSkyzsVamPdto6KXGYSAAgACW14D//3tEQIAAljiA//98cnA= Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 18:25:34 +0000 Message-ID: <47b7c55f5dfa4867ac1763e2c76f3ff0@boeing.com> References: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7be91a164bda4144a12c6c693bae7106@boeing.com> <2e0c578499cb4761ac113a264f3992a0@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 54BC99B1F70ECF8EC3B308A52546B2F03F305D30F0549DA89794C1493A6230C22000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 18:25:47 -0000 Hi Tom, > -----Original Message----- > From: Pidloc [mailto:pidloc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 9:36 AM > To: Templin (US), Fred L > Cc: Vikram Siwach ; pidloc@ietf.org; dmm > Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbe= rt-intarea-ams-00.txt >=20 > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 8:46 AM Templin (US), Fred L > wrote: > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > Please read 'draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp' (only 7 pages). It empha= sizes > > the scalability considerations from 'draft-templin-intarea-6706bis' tha= t we > > omitted from 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp', and also shows that the use ca= ses > > are not limited to civil aviation. The purpose is to present a condense= d > > version of the AERO routing system that has been around for many years. > > > > In 'draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp', we show that a BGP overlay can b= e > > organized to support 1B or more de-aggregated MNP prefixes. So, please > > have a look at that with the mindset that we are not addressing just th= e > > civil aviation use case but are broadly considering other use cases. > > > Okay, thanks for the explanation. It might be helpful if you could > recast draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp to be more of a general solution. Good input, but for that one we really were chartered to focus specifically on the aviation use case. Even so, the document says: "In this way, each set of c-ASBRs maintains separate routing and forwarding tables so that scaling is distributed across multiple c-ASBR sets instead of concentrated in a single c-ASBR set. For example, a first c-ASBR set could aggregate an MSP segment A::/32, a second set could aggregate B::/32, a third could aggregate C::/32, etc. The union of all MSP segments would then constitute the collective MSP(s) for the entire ATN/IPS." The A::/32, B::/32, C::/32 I think correspond to what your document calls "shards", but there is no implied maximum number in the doc so there could be thousands. But, in terms of the architecture, all three documents ('scalable-bgp', 'atn-bgp' and AERO) really say the same thing - scalable deaggregation. > I looked at draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp. There's a lot discussion > about scalability of c-ASBR but not so much about s-ABSR. I'm > primarily interested in the latter because that is where the solution > will be providing the oprimizations we want for low latency. While > with c-ASBRs we could expect them to have scaling properties similar > core routers, I would expect that s-ASBR devices will exhibit a lot > more variety and have a wider range of scalability. The document is very careful to differentiate scaling considerations of s-ASBRs independently of the scaling considerations of the stub AS. The s-ASBR is the entity that connects the stub AS to the overlay, but there may be many other entities inside the stub AS whose job it is to coordinate with the mobile nodes. > For instance, it's > conceivable that we might want the functionality incorporated into a > low powered device in the base station of a microcell, or incorporated > into MEC servers as I mentioned previously. I assume a BGP solution > would require all s-ASBRs to hold all the routes for the sub-MNPs as > well as being able to consume the rate of mobile events within the > sub-MNP. Other elements inside the stub AS can do the fine-grained mobility signaling with the mobile nodes, while the s-ASBR can be deployed in such a fashion that all it ever does is send unidirectional BGP updates to c-ASBRs. > So to me, the obvious question is if such a device were only > communicating with, say, a 1000 nodes at any givent time, then does it > really make sense to give them all the information about the 1M or so > nodes in the sub-MNP, or can we just give them the information that is > currently useful to them? The stub ASes accept mobile node customers up to a certain maximum. So, if there are currently only 1K customers then there are currently only 1K routes. But, let's assume that each stub AS can accept up to 1M mobile node customers at a time. Then, if there are 1K stub ASes we achieve our 1B MNP goal. It is also important to understand that the stub AS does not correspond to = a single sub-MSP aggregated prefix (e.g., 2001:db8::/44). The stub AS will ac= cept the MNPs of mobile nodes that are covered by any sub-MSP so routing in the stub AS (as well as in the system as a whole) is completely de-aggregated. Thanks for the questions, and let me know if you have any others. Regard s- Fred > Do you have any thoughts along these lines? >=20 > Tom >=20 > > Thanks - Fred > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@quantonium.net] > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:33 AM > > > To: Templin (US), Fred L > > > Cc: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org; Vikram Siwach > > > Subject: Re: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-in= tarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 7:35 AM Templin (US), Fred L > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > > > I read it, and I do not think it is different from the system descr= ibed > > > > in 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp'. > > > > > > > Hi Fred, > > > > > > Thanks for the comment. I have read draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp also. I > > > think that the hub and spoke architecture will end up being similar, > > > but I'm not sure that this is exactly the same thing. One difference > > > is that draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp is targeted to particular > > > application, whereas draft-herbert-intarea-ams endeavours to be > > > general purposes. There are differences especially in scalability. Fo= r > > > instance, rtgwg-atn-bgp mentions network with millions of routes, and > > > in draft-herbert-intarea-ams the target is to support networks with > > > billions of active addresses for IoT networks. And if we do get to > > > unique address per flow, then the total number of addresses to be > > > managed is much more (hence why hidden aggregation becomes > > > interesting). > > > > > > Another consideration is MEC servers providing services to UEs at the= y > > > edge. If they participate in the routing/mapping system (as an ASBR-s > > > in draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp and AMS-F in AMS) then the end device can > > > perform overlay routing itself. That is very efficient for lowest > > > latency. There may be many MEC servers and each one might only be > > > communicating with a small subset of all possible nodes. This seems t= o > > > motivate a working set cache to that limits the number of mappings as > > > well as the amount of control plane communications. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > > > > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 3:36 PM > > > > > To: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org > > > > > Cc: Vikram Siwach > > > > > Subject: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-in= tarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > We've posted a first draft of Address Mapping System (AMS). We > > > > > anticipate that this can be applied to mobile networks to provide > > > > > optimized overlay routing. In particular, this design provides fo= r > > > > > anchorless routing (in the form of anchor bypass) and otherwise > > > > > facilitates meeting several requirements for optimizing the mobil= e > > > > > user plane as described in section 1.0 of > > > > > draft-bogineni-dmm-optimized-mobile-user-plane-01. AMS is agnost= ic to > > > > > the underlaying overlay protocol and should be compatible with mo= st of > > > > > those being discussed. Another goal of AMS is to not require repl= acing > > > > > exsiting control planes, but can work in concert with them. For > > > > > example, the draft discusses how AMS might work with 5G. > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > > From: > > > > > Date: Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 3:15 PM > > > > > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-0= 0.txt > > > > > To: Vikram Siwach > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > has been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the > > > > > IETF repository. > > > > > > > > > > Name: draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > > > > Revision: 00 > > > > > Title: Address Mapping System > > > > > Document date: 2019-01-28 > > > > > Group: Individual Submission > > > > > Pages: 47 > > > > > URL: > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00= .txt > > > > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-in= tarea-ams/ > > > > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-intarea= -ams-00 > > > > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbe= rt-intarea-ams > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstract: > > > > > This document describes the Address Mapping System that is a g= eneric, > > > > > extensible, and scalable system for mapping network addresses = to > > > > > other network addresses. The Address Mapping System is intende= d to be > > > > > used in conjunction with overlay techniques which facilitate > > > > > transmission of packets across overlay networks. Information r= eturned > > > > > by the Address Mapping System can include the particular netwo= rk > > > > > overlay method and instructions related to the method. The Ad= dress > > > > > Mapping System has a number of potential use cases networking > > > > > including identifier-locator protocols, network virtualization= , and > > > > > promotion of privacy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of= submission > > > > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.o= rg. > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > dmm mailing list > > > > > dmm@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm >=20 > -- > Pidloc mailing list > Pidloc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pidloc From nobody Tue Jan 29 11:25:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9D2130FD7 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=quantonium-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hLqn2aM3afW2 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x135.google.com (mail-it1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B52BE130FE1 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x135.google.com with SMTP id z20so6397190itc.3 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:24:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quantonium-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6ge62Lz2qOnY3l3Is7bO1kLzrVk8edkubx5fr8VZ2SI=; b=oKROj53KPNBAG0SLuaazfUkBLo/VIlhe/+5esx8cpqJeLkatOZl+2ZNnq3xcEnvPw0 MHdFfdyxNoTrCfwqwIm7mdvmThwPqaFTTW6b8qoIhg9ILH7zBKOxQm6ouaEXZa0yaXbh 4up8OOwpya/XlsTfciP6YUG8Xe9e2CQovohM4rAAV0VKDAfCl3uoB0udD6EK/TjAO2br hHVgBMe8VK9AJKD8wfBeNn/pxKfar9eCxmhlHFq4MMI/vCZVfdVF5dcZ0WYwkqAlcD48 /P46WOZ+75boWe6Op5YeQIawrDF1O2bg8qa4+dir6hZe7Y+wjctkx+x5orE6rl94nU3v khPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6ge62Lz2qOnY3l3Is7bO1kLzrVk8edkubx5fr8VZ2SI=; b=OPRebZ+mjPmEVT2jix4YKsA9qKJ4Th3cHfEvlSvJirWiIT++HhYhb9GvOxVK1m23Bb iECjRnEHeUt0t9DDl0UVKoCXwFkD4k3uV8zQt87HEzN+hX+7XskzwfqWoi3oNcQuj6C8 VnK4acBs9byYxGrZ32oBMjfCbKPKltlNXujvQTUTJABXf4I49YjiBmfwEddIagjhObEF TbIGrDoaWqfqGAfmlVva13qhMCppI0d/z3tOaghVk0chGBT1zN8vjAfKirI8C1m8A2tf 2IfScEc/MJU5kVHCva+/XxiVX/ucWM1BSxVbiVly9nnOIkIIZvbfBk7/HhoqoNaerr2P UuAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYizyT6c8Fa5HkjhYN7/5Of89d8ykCYPRaMtYbZTFLdGeS9Z8fH NUu2NESKMgbrwNjx2eCEJ05KXtCKIG51Q2L1ja70Dg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7WHacqFeo9nVPEhdLTp6xVDy85Eb3He+gzoYpB5XFHLqAbf9FduA/gc2XgX1aXRrLhLCDc5NdNuKmSU+gMX7Y= X-Received: by 2002:a24:7284:: with SMTP id x126mr13748179itc.15.1548789887797; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:24:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7be91a164bda4144a12c6c693bae7106@boeing.com> <2e0c578499cb4761ac113a264f3992a0@boeing.com> <47b7c55f5dfa4867ac1763e2c76f3ff0@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <47b7c55f5dfa4867ac1763e2c76f3ff0@boeing.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:24:36 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Cc: Vikram Siwach , "pidloc@ietf.org" , dmm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 19:24:53 -0000 On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:25 AM Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pidloc [mailto:pidloc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 9:36 AM > > To: Templin (US), Fred L > > Cc: Vikram Siwach ; pidloc@ietf.org; dmm > > Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 8:46 AM Templin (US), Fred L > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > Please read 'draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp' (only 7 pages). It emphasizes > > > the scalability considerations from 'draft-templin-intarea-6706bis' that we > > > omitted from 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp', and also shows that the use cases > > > are not limited to civil aviation. The purpose is to present a condensed > > > version of the AERO routing system that has been around for many years. > > > > > > In 'draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp', we show that a BGP overlay can be > > > organized to support 1B or more de-aggregated MNP prefixes. So, please > > > have a look at that with the mindset that we are not addressing just the > > > civil aviation use case but are broadly considering other use cases. > > > > > Okay, thanks for the explanation. It might be helpful if you could > > recast draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp to be more of a general solution. > > Good input, but for that one we really were chartered to focus specifically > on the aviation use case. Even so, the document says: > > "In this way, each set of c-ASBRs maintains > separate routing and forwarding tables so that scaling is distributed > across multiple c-ASBR sets instead of concentrated in a single > c-ASBR set. For example, a first c-ASBR set could aggregate an MSP > segment A::/32, a second set could aggregate B::/32, a third could > aggregate C::/32, etc. The union of all MSP segments would then > constitute the collective MSP(s) for the entire ATN/IPS." > > The A::/32, B::/32, C::/32 I think correspond to what your document calls > "shards", but there is no implied maximum number in the doc so there > could be thousands. But, in terms of the architecture, all three documents > ('scalable-bgp', 'atn-bgp' and AERO) really say the same thing - scalable > deaggregation. > I see. I think the atn may be nicely describing the sharding referred to in AMS. AMS employs caches to ensure direct path for critical communications. From that POV maybe they are complementary. > > I looked at draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp. There's a lot discussion > > about scalability of c-ASBR but not so much about s-ABSR. I'm > > primarily interested in the latter because that is where the solution > > will be providing the oprimizations we want for low latency. While > > with c-ASBRs we could expect them to have scaling properties similar > > core routers, I would expect that s-ASBR devices will exhibit a lot > > more variety and have a wider range of scalability. > > The document is very careful to differentiate scaling considerations of > s-ASBRs independently of the scaling considerations of the stub AS. > The s-ASBR is the entity that connects the stub AS to the overlay, but > there may be many other entities inside the stub AS whose job it is > to coordinate with the mobile nodes. > > > For instance, it's > > conceivable that we might want the functionality incorporated into a > > low powered device in the base station of a microcell, or incorporated > > into MEC servers as I mentioned previously. I assume a BGP solution > > would require all s-ASBRs to hold all the routes for the sub-MNPs as > > well as being able to consume the rate of mobile events within the > > sub-MNP. > > Other elements inside the stub AS can do the fine-grained mobility > signaling with the mobile nodes, while the s-ASBR can be deployed in > such a fashion that all it ever does is send unidirectional BGP updates > to c-ASBRs. > > > So to me, the obvious question is if such a device were only > > communicating with, say, a 1000 nodes at any givent time, then does it > > really make sense to give them all the information about the 1M or so > > nodes in the sub-MNP, or can we just give them the information that is > > currently useful to them? > > The stub ASes accept mobile node customers up to a certain maximum. > So, if there are currently only 1K customers then there are currently only > 1K routes. But, let's assume that each stub AS can accept up to 1M mobile > node customers at a time. Then, if there are 1K stub ASes we achieve our > 1B MNP goal. > > It is also important to understand that the stub AS does not correspond to a > single sub-MSP aggregated prefix (e.g., 2001:db8::/44). The stub AS will accept > the MNPs of mobile nodes that are covered by any sub-MSP so routing in the > stub AS (as well as in the system as a whole) is completely de-aggregated. > Sure, but isn't there sub-optimal routing when a node moves to an area covered by a different stub AS. In that case wouldn't packets be routed to the home s-ABSR and then forwarded to the remote location. And even if each stub AS were to support up to 1M nodes, a large densely populated urban area might have an order of magnitude more devices which means that the city needs to be divided up into several areas corresponding to stub-ASs and MNPs. Entropy of motion implies that a steady state will be reached where a fairly large portion of users are outside the geographic area corresponging to their MNP so communications are subject to the triangular routing. So I think the atn solution might be good to scale the number of nodes, but sub-optimal routing is going to be problematic for critical low latency applications. For those, I maintain we always want them to the most direct route available (e.g. anchorless routing), hence the value of a cache. > Thanks for the questions, and let me know if you have any others. > > Regard s- Fred > > > Do you have any thoughts along these lines? > > > > Tom > > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@quantonium.net] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:33 AM > > > > To: Templin (US), Fred L > > > > Cc: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org; Vikram Siwach > > > > Subject: Re: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 7:35 AM Templin (US), Fred L > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > > > > > I read it, and I do not think it is different from the system described > > > > > in 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp'. > > > > > > > > > Hi Fred, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comment. I have read draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp also. I > > > > think that the hub and spoke architecture will end up being similar, > > > > but I'm not sure that this is exactly the same thing. One difference > > > > is that draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp is targeted to particular > > > > application, whereas draft-herbert-intarea-ams endeavours to be > > > > general purposes. There are differences especially in scalability. For > > > > instance, rtgwg-atn-bgp mentions network with millions of routes, and > > > > in draft-herbert-intarea-ams the target is to support networks with > > > > billions of active addresses for IoT networks. And if we do get to > > > > unique address per flow, then the total number of addresses to be > > > > managed is much more (hence why hidden aggregation becomes > > > > interesting). > > > > > > > > Another consideration is MEC servers providing services to UEs at they > > > > edge. If they participate in the routing/mapping system (as an ASBR-s > > > > in draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp and AMS-F in AMS) then the end device can > > > > perform overlay routing itself. That is very efficient for lowest > > > > latency. There may be many MEC servers and each one might only be > > > > communicating with a small subset of all possible nodes. This seems to > > > > motivate a working set cache to that limits the number of mappings as > > > > well as the amount of control plane communications. > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > > > > > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 3:36 PM > > > > > > To: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org > > > > > > Cc: Vikram Siwach > > > > > > Subject: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > We've posted a first draft of Address Mapping System (AMS). We > > > > > > anticipate that this can be applied to mobile networks to provide > > > > > > optimized overlay routing. In particular, this design provides for > > > > > > anchorless routing (in the form of anchor bypass) and otherwise > > > > > > facilitates meeting several requirements for optimizing the mobile > > > > > > user plane as described in section 1.0 of > > > > > > draft-bogineni-dmm-optimized-mobile-user-plane-01. AMS is agnostic to > > > > > > the underlaying overlay protocol and should be compatible with most of > > > > > > those being discussed. Another goal of AMS is to not require replacing > > > > > > exsiting control planes, but can work in concert with them. For > > > > > > example, the draft discusses how AMS might work with 5G. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > > > From: > > > > > > Date: Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 3:15 PM > > > > > > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > To: Vikram Siwach > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > has been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the > > > > > > IETF repository. > > > > > > > > > > > > Name: draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > > > > > Revision: 00 > > > > > > Title: Address Mapping System > > > > > > Document date: 2019-01-28 > > > > > > Group: Individual Submission > > > > > > Pages: 47 > > > > > > URL: > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-intarea-ams/ > > > > > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00 > > > > > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstract: > > > > > > This document describes the Address Mapping System that is a generic, > > > > > > extensible, and scalable system for mapping network addresses to > > > > > > other network addresses. The Address Mapping System is intended to be > > > > > > used in conjunction with overlay techniques which facilitate > > > > > > transmission of packets across overlay networks. Information returned > > > > > > by the Address Mapping System can include the particular network > > > > > > overlay method and instructions related to the method. The Address > > > > > > Mapping System has a number of potential use cases networking > > > > > > including identifier-locator protocols, network virtualization, and > > > > > > promotion of privacy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > > > > > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > dmm mailing list > > > > > > dmm@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm > > > > -- > > Pidloc mailing list > > Pidloc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pidloc From nobody Tue Jan 29 12:14:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C80E130EBA; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 12:14:00 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clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id x0TKDmeM010234 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Jan 2019 15:13:48 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-08.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.110) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1591.10; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 12:13:47 -0800 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1591.012; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 12:13:47 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Tom Herbert CC: Vikram Siwach , "pidloc@ietf.org" , dmm Thread-Topic: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUt2KfWlx/WWYcSkyzsVamPdto6KXGYSAAgACW14D//3tEQIAAljiA//98cnCAAKH8AP//gjmw Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 20:13:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7be91a164bda4144a12c6c693bae7106@boeing.com> <2e0c578499cb4761ac113a264f3992a0@boeing.com> <47b7c55f5dfa4867ac1763e2c76f3ff0@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: BBBECD70DA4ABB649BB5B329F3015BA2BD7354AC842289AA0513CC545C46928C2000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 20:14:00 -0000 SGkgVG9tLA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IFRvbSBIZXJi 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From: Tom Herbert Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 12:44:34 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Cc: Vikram Siwach , "pidloc@ietf.org" , dmm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 20:44:51 -0000 On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 12:13 PM Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@quantonium.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 11:25 AM > > To: Templin (US), Fred L > > Cc: Vikram Siwach ; pidloc@ietf.org; dmm > > Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:25 AM Templin (US), Fred L > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Pidloc [mailto:pidloc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 9:36 AM > > > > To: Templin (US), Fred L > > > > Cc: Vikram Siwach ; pidloc@ietf.org; dmm > > > > Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 8:46 AM Templin (US), Fred L > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > > > > > Please read 'draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp' (only 7 pages). It emphasizes > > > > > the scalability considerations from 'draft-templin-intarea-6706bis' that we > > > > > omitted from 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp', and also shows that the use cases > > > > > are not limited to civil aviation. The purpose is to present a condensed > > > > > version of the AERO routing system that has been around for many years. > > > > > > > > > > In 'draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp', we show that a BGP overlay can be > > > > > organized to support 1B or more de-aggregated MNP prefixes. So, please > > > > > have a look at that with the mindset that we are not addressing just the > > > > > civil aviation use case but are broadly considering other use cases. > > > > > > > > > Okay, thanks for the explanation. It might be helpful if you could > > > > recast draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp to be more of a general solution. > > > > > > Good input, but for that one we really were chartered to focus specifically > > > on the aviation use case. Even so, the document says: > > > > > > "In this way, each set of c-ASBRs maintains > > > separate routing and forwarding tables so that scaling is distributed > > > across multiple c-ASBR sets instead of concentrated in a single > > > c-ASBR set. For example, a first c-ASBR set could aggregate an MSP > > > segment A::/32, a second set could aggregate B::/32, a third could > > > aggregate C::/32, etc. The union of all MSP segments would then > > > constitute the collective MSP(s) for the entire ATN/IPS." > > > > > > The A::/32, B::/32, C::/32 I think correspond to what your document calls > > > "shards", but there is no implied maximum number in the doc so there > > > could be thousands. But, in terms of the architecture, all three documents > > > ('scalable-bgp', 'atn-bgp' and AERO) really say the same thing - scalable > > > deaggregation. > > > > > I see. I think the atn may be nicely describing the sharding referred > > to in AMS. AMS employs caches to ensure direct path for critical > > communications. > > But, what do you do with arriving packets while there is a cache miss and > you need to go out and fill the cache? Drop them on the floor? Hold them > in a queue? With the BGP arrangement, packets are forwarded normally > even if initial packets end up taking a somewhat longer route. > > > From that POV maybe they are complementary. > > I think examining the elements that would be at work within the stub AS > makes sense, and I haven't gone to that level of examination in the *rtgwg* > docs. But, intra- stub AS candidate solutions already include MIPv6, LISP and > AERO - so, you may need to look for overlaps with those as well. > > > > > I looked at draft-templin-rtgwg-scalable-bgp. There's a lot discussion > > > > about scalability of c-ASBR but not so much about s-ABSR. I'm > > > > primarily interested in the latter because that is where the solution > > > > will be providing the oprimizations we want for low latency. While > > > > with c-ASBRs we could expect them to have scaling properties similar > > > > core routers, I would expect that s-ASBR devices will exhibit a lot > > > > more variety and have a wider range of scalability. > > > > > > The document is very careful to differentiate scaling considerations of > > > s-ASBRs independently of the scaling considerations of the stub AS. > > > The s-ASBR is the entity that connects the stub AS to the overlay, but > > > there may be many other entities inside the stub AS whose job it is > > > to coordinate with the mobile nodes. > > > > > > > For instance, it's > > > > conceivable that we might want the functionality incorporated into a > > > > low powered device in the base station of a microcell, or incorporated > > > > into MEC servers as I mentioned previously. I assume a BGP solution > > > > would require all s-ASBRs to hold all the routes for the sub-MNPs as > > > > well as being able to consume the rate of mobile events within the > > > > sub-MNP. > > > > > > Other elements inside the stub AS can do the fine-grained mobility > > > signaling with the mobile nodes, while the s-ASBR can be deployed in > > > such a fashion that all it ever does is send unidirectional BGP updates > > > to c-ASBRs. > > > > > > > So to me, the obvious question is if such a device were only > > > > communicating with, say, a 1000 nodes at any givent time, then does it > > > > really make sense to give them all the information about the 1M or so > > > > nodes in the sub-MNP, or can we just give them the information that is > > > > currently useful to them? > > > > > > The stub ASes accept mobile node customers up to a certain maximum. > > > So, if there are currently only 1K customers then there are currently only > > > 1K routes. But, let's assume that each stub AS can accept up to 1M mobile > > > node customers at a time. Then, if there are 1K stub ASes we achieve our > > > 1B MNP goal. > > > > > > It is also important to understand that the stub AS does not correspond to a > > > single sub-MSP aggregated prefix (e.g., 2001:db8::/44). The stub AS will accept > > > the MNPs of mobile nodes that are covered by any sub-MSP so routing in the > > > stub AS (as well as in the system as a whole) is completely de-aggregated. > > > > > Sure, but isn't there sub-optimal routing when a node moves to an area > > covered by a different stub AS. In that case wouldn't packets be > > routed to the home s-ABSR and then forwarded to the remote location. > > In this model, there is no such notion as a "home" s-ASBR; mobile nodes > are always "away from home", and there is no aggregation of any kind > within any stub AS. Total de-aggregation instead. > > > And even if each stub AS were to support up to 1M nodes, a large > > densely populated urban area might have an order of magnitude more > > devices which means that the city needs to be divided up into several > > areas corresponding to stub-ASs and MNPs. > > Yes, for very dense urban areas there could be many stub ASes - each one of > which is capable of serving any mobile node that shows up. So there is natural > load balancing and no aggregation of any kind. Fred, I'm not sure why you say there's no aggregation, it seems like MNPs are aggregating nodes. Relying too much on this sort of load balancing might be precarious. It's conceivable that a mass migration could happen that quickly changes the dynamics of load balancing. Consider people going to a major sporting event or evacuation from a natural disaster. Network architecture needs to be able to handle edge cases like that seamlessly and robustly. > > > Entropy of motion implies > > that a steady state will be reached where a fairly large portion of > > users are outside the geographic area corresponging to their MNP so > > communications are subject to the triangular routing. > > Mobile nodes associate with a nearby stub AS from a regional perspective. > If the mobile moves far away from its current stub AS, it can leave that > one and associate with a new stub AS that is closer. But, it could instead > remain with the old stub AS at the penalty of routing stretch as you say. > Then that would raise the question of how does the mobile node know it's move to a different AS, and what is the process to associate with a new stub AS. I would assume the latter means the host would need to get all new addresses. Personally, I tend to think that the network should handle this transparently and not require disruption or intelligence on the mobile device. > > So I think the atn solution might be good to scale the number of > > nodes, but sub-optimal routing is going to be problematic for critical > > low latency applications. For those, I maintain we always want them to > > the most direct route available (e.g. anchorless routing), hence the > > value of a cache. > > Route optimization is used to avoid having to always go through an > anchor - AERO is Asymmetric Extended Route Optimization, and > LISP does a sort of route optimization in its xTR discovery process. > Direct mobile-to-mobile route optimization may also be possible > in some environments, but not all. > Correct. A major point of AMS is to bypass routing through anchors when it's of benefit to do so. Tom > Thanks - Fred > > > > Thanks for the questions, and let me know if you have any others. > > > > > > Regard s- Fred > > > > > > > Do you have any thoughts along these lines? > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@quantonium.net] > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:33 AM > > > > > > To: Templin (US), Fred L > > > > > > Cc: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org; Vikram Siwach > > > > > > Subject: Re: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 7:35 AM Templin (US), Fred L > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read it, and I do not think it is different from the system described > > > > > > > in 'draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Fred, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comment. I have read draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp also. I > > > > > > think that the hub and spoke architecture will end up being similar, > > > > > > but I'm not sure that this is exactly the same thing. One difference > > > > > > is that draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp is targeted to particular > > > > > > application, whereas draft-herbert-intarea-ams endeavours to be > > > > > > general purposes. There are differences especially in scalability. For > > > > > > instance, rtgwg-atn-bgp mentions network with millions of routes, and > > > > > > in draft-herbert-intarea-ams the target is to support networks with > > > > > > billions of active addresses for IoT networks. And if we do get to > > > > > > unique address per flow, then the total number of addresses to be > > > > > > managed is much more (hence why hidden aggregation becomes > > > > > > interesting). > > > > > > > > > > > > Another consideration is MEC servers providing services to UEs at they > > > > > > edge. If they participate in the routing/mapping system (as an ASBR-s > > > > > > in draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp and AMS-F in AMS) then the end device can > > > > > > perform overlay routing itself. That is very efficient for lowest > > > > > > latency. There may be many MEC servers and each one might only be > > > > > > communicating with a small subset of all possible nodes. This seems to > > > > > > motivate a working set cache to that limits the number of mappings as > > > > > > well as the amount of control plane communications. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: dmm [mailto:dmm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tom Herbert > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > To: dmm ; pidloc@ietf.org > > > > > > > > Cc: Vikram Siwach > > > > > > > > Subject: [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We've posted a first draft of Address Mapping System (AMS). We > > > > > > > > anticipate that this can be applied to mobile networks to provide > > > > > > > > optimized overlay routing. In particular, this design provides for > > > > > > > > anchorless routing (in the form of anchor bypass) and otherwise > > > > > > > > facilitates meeting several requirements for optimizing the mobile > > > > > > > > user plane as described in section 1.0 of > > > > > > > > draft-bogineni-dmm-optimized-mobile-user-plane-01. AMS is agnostic to > > > > > > > > the underlaying overlay protocol and should be compatible with most of > > > > > > > > those being discussed. Another goal of AMS is to not require replacing > > > > > > > > exsiting control planes, but can work in concert with them. For > > > > > > > > example, the draft discusses how AMS might work with 5G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > > > > > From: > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 3:15 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > To: Vikram Siwach > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > has been successfully submitted by Tom Herbert and posted to the > > > > > > > > IETF repository. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Name: draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > > > > > > > Revision: 00 > > > > > > > > Title: Address Mapping System > > > > > > > > Document date: 2019-01-28 > > > > > > > > Group: Individual Submission > > > > > > > > Pages: 47 > > > > > > > > URL: > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt > > > > > > > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-herbert-intarea-ams/ > > > > > > > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00 > > > > > > > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-intarea-ams > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstract: > > > > > > > > This document describes the Address Mapping System that is a generic, > > > > > > > > extensible, and scalable system for mapping network addresses to > > > > > > > > other network addresses. The Address Mapping System is intended to be > > > > > > > > used in conjunction with overlay techniques which facilitate > > > > > > > > transmission of packets across overlay networks. Information returned > > > > > > > > by the Address Mapping System can include the particular network > > > > > > > > overlay method and instructions related to the method. The Address > > > > > > > > Mapping System has a number of potential use cases networking > > > > > > > > including identifier-locator protocols, network virtualization, and > > > > > > > > promotion of privacy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > > > > > > > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > dmm mailing list > > > > > > > > dmm@ietf.org > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmm > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Pidloc mailing list > > > > Pidloc@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pidloc From nobody Tue Jan 29 13:48:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: pidloc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A583D131021; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:48:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUIl8cepjNm1; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.144.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42769130ED7; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id x0TLlxNW016944; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 16:48:00 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-11.nos.boeing.com (xch16-07-11.nos.boeing.com [144.115.66.113]) by clt-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id x0TLlw1p016934 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Jan 2019 16:47:58 -0500 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.112) by XCH16-07-11.nos.boeing.com (144.115.66.113) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.1591.10; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:47:57 -0800 Received: from XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8]) by XCH16-07-10.nos.boeing.com ([fe80::e065:4e77:ac47:d9a8%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1591.012; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 13:47:57 -0800 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Tom Herbert CC: Vikram Siwach , "pidloc@ietf.org" , dmm Thread-Topic: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUt2KfWlx/WWYcSkyzsVamPdto6KXGYSAAgACW14D//3tEQIAAljiA//98cnCAAKH8AP//gjmwABKD3wAAD2h2sA== Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 21:47:57 +0000 Message-ID: <86051a5297914b9f943d630e1147bbcb@boeing.com> References: <154871730925.2863.111474039018096073.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7be91a164bda4144a12c6c693bae7106@boeing.com> <2e0c578499cb4761ac113a264f3992a0@boeing.com> <47b7c55f5dfa4867ac1763e2c76f3ff0@boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] x-tm-snts-smtp: 5B1B7D2A1464358111902D8A659245A7309A520C0F5E9F3A49193EC8F3E9DB662000:8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Pidloc] [DMM] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-herbert-intarea-ams-00.txt X-BeenThere: pidloc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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