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Passwords for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- pppext@ietf.org kiowes https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/pppext/pppext-web-archive%40ietf.org From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 23 08:48:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA10971 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWb5a-0002oA-Ku for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:52:14 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWawN-0003Tf-Ee; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:42:43 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWao5-0001yM-IY for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:34:09 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09582 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWarj-0000l3-GP for pppext@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:37:56 -0500 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANDY56O029774 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id iANDY5Jd004874 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:34:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iANDY5e3000031 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:34:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1/Submit) id iANDY5dN000028; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:34:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:34:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411231334.iANDY5dN000028@phorcys.East.Sun.COM> From: James Carlson To: pppext@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Subject: [Pppext] removing the milestones X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 I've had a request to remove our stale milestones from the list. I agree, and I'm sending mail to the AD and secretariat now. Essentially, we have a null list of goals and milestones at this point and are effectively dormant. Below are my notes on the existing list of milestones. If you have any interest in restoring these with new target dates, or would like to have new milestones added, please speak up. > Dec 99 Advance AODI draft to Proposed Standard There's been no activity on this draft in quite some time, and I don't expect it to end up advancing. > Dec 99 Advance CHAP (RFC 1994) to Standard > Dec 99 Advance Multilink (RFC 1990) to Standard > Dec 99 Advance LQM (RFC 1989) to Standard > Dec 99 Advance IPCP (RFC 1332) to Draft Standard > Dec 99 Advance CCP (RFC 1962) to Draft Standard > Dec 99 Advance ECP (RFC 1968) to Draft Standard > Dec 99 Advance PPP over ISDN (RFC 1618) to Draft Standard > Mar 00 Advance LCP MIB (RFC 1471) to Draft Standard > Mar 00 Advance CHAP MIB (RFC 1472) to Draft Standard > Mar 00 Advance IPCP MIB (RFC 1473) to Draft Standard These could be advanced, but it would take some minor work to do the documentation necessary, and it's not clear that there's substantial value in it. > Dec 99 Add VLAN support to BCP (RFC 1638) and recycle at Proposed Standard This milestone has been achieved: RFC 2878 obsoleted 1638. -- James Carlson, IP Systems Group? Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.234W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.497N Fax +1 781 442 1677 _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 23 12:44:54 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02782 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:44:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWemU-0000x9-IU for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:48:47 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWeeA-0004dU-P0; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:40:10 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWeQp-0001pa-1k for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:26:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01678 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWeUM-0006zf-9y for pppext@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:30:12 -0500 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (171.68.223.138) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Nov 2004 09:26:01 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from gwzw2k01 (sjc-vpn5-162.cisco.com [10.21.88.162]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iANHPcft020752; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:25:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200411231725.iANHPcft020752@sj-core-4.cisco.com> From: "Glen Zorn \(gwz\)" To: "'James Carlson'" Subject: RE: [Pppext] removing the milestones Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:25:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <200411231334.iANDY5dN000028@phorcys.East.Sun.COM> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Thread-Index: AcTRY6HQ+c4chWSDS1OofpBvTJ9/oQAHAxBg X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: pppext@ietf.org X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: gwz@cisco.com List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Carlson <> wrote: > I've had a request to remove our stale milestones from the list. I > agree, and I'm sending mail to the AD and secretariat now. > > Essentially, we have a null list of goals and milestones at this > point and are effectively dormant. > > Below are my notes on the existing list of milestones. If you have > any interest in restoring these with new target dates, or would like > to have new milestones added, please speak up. > >> Dec 99 Advance AODI draft to Proposed Standard > > There's been no activity on this draft in quite some time, and I > don't expect it to end up advancing. > >> Dec 99 Advance CHAP (RFC 1994) to Standard >> Dec 99 Advance Multilink (RFC 1990) to Standard >> Dec 99 Advance LQM (RFC 1989) to Standard >> Dec 99 Advance IPCP (RFC 1332) to Draft Standard >> Dec 99 Advance CCP (RFC 1962) to Draft Standard >> Dec 99 Advance ECP (RFC 1968) to Draft Standard >> Dec 99 Advance PPP over ISDN (RFC 1618) to Draft Standard >> Mar 00 Advance LCP MIB (RFC 1471) to Draft Standard >> Mar 00 Advance CHAP MIB (RFC 1472) to Draft Standard >> Mar 00 Advance IPCP MIB (RFC 1473) to Draft Standard > > These could be advanced, but it would take some minor work to do the > documentation necessary, and it's not clear that there's substantial > value in it. I find this an extremely interesting statement, esp. coming from a WG chair. You seem to be saying that there is doubtful value in advancing a document beyond Proposed Standard, essentially dismissing the most of the IETF standards process as irrelevant. This is particularly interesting (and somewhat distressing) since Draft Standard is, I believe, the only level that requires evidence of interoperability... > >> Dec 99 Add VLAN support to BCP (RFC 1638) and recycle at Proposed >> Standard > > This milestone has been achieved: RFC 2878 obsoleted 1638. Hope this helps, ~gwz Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 23 12:48:35 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03083 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWeq4-0001NE-LJ for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:52:28 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWehh-0005FI-Kc; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:43:49 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWee7-0004Zq-K8 for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:40:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02431 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWehn-0000Am-VJ for pppext@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:43:57 -0500 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANHe4un027181 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:40:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id iANHe4Jf016811 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iANHe4Lv001141; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1/Submit) id iANHe461001138; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:40:04 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16803.30196.252410.196857@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:40:04 -0500 From: James Carlson To: gwz@cisco.com Subject: RE: [Pppext] removing the milestones In-Reply-To: Glen Zorn (gwz)'s message of 23 November 2004 09:25:38 References: <200411231334.iANDY5dN000028@phorcys.East.Sun.COM> <200411231725.iANHPcft020752@sj-core-4.cisco.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: pppext@ietf.org X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen Zorn (gwz) writes: > > These could be advanced, but it would take some minor work to do > the > > documentation necessary, and it's not clear that there's > substantial > > value in it. > > I find this an extremely interesting statement, esp. coming from a > WG chair. You seem to be saying that there is doubtful value in > advancing a document beyond Proposed Standard, essentially > dismissing the most of the IETF standards process as irrelevant. We need people who are interested in doing the work necessary for advancing those documents. It's been months since I called to see if anyone was interested in stepping up to do that work, and there's been no response. I'm not dismissing the standards process as "irrelevant." Those are your words, not mine. What I did say was that it wasn't clear whether advancing the documents (after so many years has passed) has any substantial value for anyone consuming the documents. I don't know that it does. > This is particularly interesting (and somewhat distressing) since > Draft Standard is, I believe, the only level that requires evidence > of interoperability... True. And, as I said before, someone has to speak up to take ownership of a document of interest, or it's just going to stay at that maturity level forever. In the meantime, it's just silly for us to have milestones listed that expired five years ago. I'd like to put down new dates for those, but if there's nobody working on them, then there's no plausible date that I can put on them. -- James Carlson, IP Systems Group? Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.234W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.497N Fax +1 781 442 1677 _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 23 13:32:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06409 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWfVw-0007KH-7e for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:36:02 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWfO0-0006Qm-Fz; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:27:32 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWfGC-0004iT-Sw for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:19:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05494 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from gtfw2.enterasys.com ([12.25.1.128] ident=firewall-user) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWfJu-0005Ot-P1 for pppext@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:23:19 -0500 Received: from NHROCAVG2.ets.enterasys.com ([134.141.79.124]) by gtfw2.enterasys.com (0.25.1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iANIJPtL024372 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from psmtp.com ([134.141.79.124]) by 134.141.79.124 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:19:24 -0500 Received: from source ([134.141.79.122]) by host ([134.141.79.124]) with SMTP; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:19:24 -0500 Received: from maandmbx2 ([134.141.93.31]) by NHROCCNC2.ets.enterasys.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:19:14 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Pppext] removing the milestones Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:19:14 -0500 Message-ID: <2A5E4540D4D5934D9A1E7E0B0FDB2D69E18F99@MAANDMBX2.ets.enterasys.com> Thread-Topic: [Pppext] removing the milestones Thread-Index: AcTRhLqP4oQudLtIQXKgL7tLl6LhxwAA5HMg From: "Nelson, David" To: "James Carlson" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Nov 2004 18:19:14.0850 (UTC) FILETIME=[F02DB020:01C4D188] X-pstn-version: pmps:sps_win32_1_1_0c1 pase:2.8 X-pstn-levels: (C:84.0661 M:98.6627 P:95.9108 R:95.9108 S:85.0264 ) X-pstn-settings: 4 (0.2500:0.7500) p:13 m:13 C:14 r:13 X-pstn-addresses: from forward (org good) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: pppext@ietf.org X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I'm not dismissing the standards process as "irrelevant." Those are > your words, not mine. >=20 > What I did say was that it wasn't clear whether advancing the > documents (after so many years has passed) has any substantial value > for anyone consuming the documents. I don't know that it does. I think I understand what Glen is saying. If implementing product based on documents at Proposed Standard is "good enough" for the industry, why would anyone ever expend the extra energy to advance a document to Draft Standard of Full Standard? I also understand that the IETF cannot compel work, so if there is currently no interest... -- Dave _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 23 13:34:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06606 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWfYA-0007Nk-G9 for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:38:02 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWfTH-0007d9-Di; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:32:59 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWfO5-0006TA-4M for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:27:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06211 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWfRm-0006Zm-6m for pppext@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:31:27 -0500 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (171.68.223.138) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Nov 2004 10:27:26 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from gwzw2k01 (sjc-vpn5-162.cisco.com [10.21.88.162]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id iANIR2ft019657; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:27:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200411231827.iANIR2ft019657@sj-core-4.cisco.com> From: "Glen Zorn \(gwz\)" To: "'James Carlson'" Subject: RE: [Pppext] removing the milestones Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:27:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <16803.30196.252410.196857@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 Thread-Index: AcTRg4B/O6k35xs9TVeK+MpLuTAe+wAAGlJA X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: pppext@ietf.org X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: gwz@cisco.com List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Carlson wrote: ... > > I'm not dismissing the standards process as "irrelevant." That's nice to hear. > Those are > your words, not mine. Note that I wrote "You seem to be saying..."; less an attribution of meaning than a somewhat oblique query thereof. > > What I did say was that it wasn't clear whether advancing the > documents (after so many years has passed) has any substantial value > for anyone consuming the documents. I don't know that it does. Just to be fair, there seems to be a _very_ thin line between lacking "substantial value" and irrelevance. > >> This is particularly interesting (and somewhat distressing) since >> Draft Standard is, I believe, the only level that requires evidence >> of interoperability... > > True. And, as I said before, someone has to speak up to take > ownership of a document of interest, or it's just going to stay at > that maturity level forever. OK, what work needs to be done on the documents (aside from the MIBs which probably need editing to comply w/the new boilerplate, etc.)? > > In the meantime, it's just silly for us to have milestones listed > that expired five years ago. True. > I'd like to put down new dates for > those, but if there's nobody working on them, then there's no > plausible date that I can put on them. Hope this helps, ~gwz Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 23 14:33:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11413 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWgTQ-0006nG-5f for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:37:12 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWgMs-0001jK-3k; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:30:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CWgIP-0000ua-Ro for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:25:49 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10744 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CWgM7-0005z7-Aj for pppext@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:29:40 -0500 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iANJPk6O026846 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id iANJPjJh013373 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iANJPjK7001506; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1/Submit) id iANJPj08001503; Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:25:45 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16803.36537.648863.250806@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:25:45 -0500 From: James Carlson To: "Nelson, David" , gwz@cisco.com Subject: RE: [Pppext] removing the milestones In-Reply-To: Nelson, David's message of 23 November 2004 13:19:14 References: <16803.30196.252410.196857@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200411231827.iANIR2ft019657@sj-core-4.cisco.com> <2A5E4540D4D5934D9A1E7E0B0FDB2D69E18F99@MAANDMBX2.ets.enterasys.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: pppext@ietf.org X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nelson, David writes: > > What I did say was that it wasn't clear whether advancing the > > documents (after so many years has passed) has any substantial value > > for anyone consuming the documents. I don't know that it does. > > I think I understand what Glen is saying. If implementing product based > on documents at Proposed Standard is "good enough" for the industry, why > would anyone ever expend the extra energy to advance a document to Draft > Standard of Full Standard? That's a fair question, and I don't have a good answer for it. > I also understand that the IETF cannot compel work, so if there is > currently no interest... Yep. Glen Zorn (gwz) writes: > > What I did say was that it wasn't clear whether advancing the > > documents (after so many years has passed) has any substantial > value > > for anyone consuming the documents. I don't know that it does. > > Just to be fair, there seems to be a _very_ thin line between > lacking "substantial value" and irrelevance. Maybe. I see the distinction as being whether anyone is willing to do the (non-trivial) testing and (likely trivial) documentation required to the work. That's the substantive part. It's not irrelevant; it's just (apparently) not of enough value, or we'd have volunteers. > > True. And, as I said before, someone has to speak up to take > > ownership of a document of interest, or it's just going to stay at > > that maturity level forever. > > OK, what work needs to be done on the documents (aside from the MIBs > which probably need editing to comply w/the new boilerplate, etc.)? It looks like this: The requirement for at least two independent and interoperable implementations applies to all of the options and features of the specification. In cases in which one or more options or features have not been demonstrated in at least two interoperable implementations, the specification may advance to the Draft Standard level only if those options or features are removed. Someone needs to show that two implementations (A) implement all of the options and features and (B) that the options and features work together. I then get the task of 'documenting' these implementations and citing them to the Area Director as a reason to advance the standards process for that document. I suspect that this is likely to be 'hard' for some cases, as some implementation either don't have all the features or don't have any way to control the features. It may mean writing new drafts and *removing* sections that either nobody implements, or not enough people agree on. I don't think it's zero effort. -- James Carlson, IP Systems Group? Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.234W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.497N Fax +1 781 442 1677 _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 29 08:22:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA17888 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYlYv-0000pN-Qs for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:27:31 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYlJT-0001X8-Js; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:11:31 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYlF7-0000XY-Eo for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:07:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16332 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com ([192.18.98.36]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYlK1-0000O1-K8 for pppext@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:12:06 -0500 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iATD6xun027974 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:06:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id iATD6wJd009235 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iATD6ww4011285 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1/Submit) id iATD6wRC011282; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:06:58 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16811.7922.778940.799381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:06:58 -0500 From: James Carlson To: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Pppext] Old RFCs going to Historic X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A fair number of older RFCs are being promoted to Historic status, many of which may well be used in PPP implementations. http://www.ofcourseimright.com/oldstandards.html Send mail to old-standards alvestrand.no if you would like to see any of those things _not_ become Historic. For reference, here are the (vaguely) PPP-related ones, and the current status as of this moment. Those marked with "X" below have NOT been stricken from the list and will become Historic unless someone speaks up. This includes AppleTalk, IPX, and the PPP MIBs. Those marked with "?" have questions surrounding their future usefulness and deployment. If you know anything about them, please let the 'old-standards' list know. RFC1144 Compressing TCP/IP headers for low-speed serial links RFC1332 The PPP Internet Protocol Control Protocol (IPCP) RFC1377 The PPP OSI Network Layer Control Protocol (OSINLCP) X RFC1378 The PPP AppleTalk Control Protocol (ATCP) X RFC1471 The Definitions of Managed Objects for the Link Control Protocol of the Point-to-Point Protocol X RFC1472 The Definitions of Managed Objects for the Security Protocols of the Point-to-Point Protocol X RFC1473 The Definitions of Managed Objects for the IP Network Control Protocol of the Point-to-Point Protocol X RFC1474 The Definitions of Managed Objects for the Bridge Network Control Protocol of the Point-to-Point Protocol X RFC1552 The PPP Internetworking Packet Exchange Control Protocol (IPXCP) X RFC1553 Compressing IPX Headers Over WAN Media (CIPX) RFC1570 PPP LCP Extensions X RFC1582 Extensions to RIP to Support Demand Circuits X RFC1598 PPP in X.25 X RFC1618 PPP over ISDN ? RFC1663 PPP Reliable Transmission X RFC1696 Modem Management Information Base (MIB) using SMIv2 X RFC1742 AppleTalk Management Information Base II X RFC1763 The PPP Banyan Vines Control Protocol (BVCP) X RFC1764 The PPP XNS IDP Control Protocol (XNSCP) X RFC1793 Extending OSPF to Support Demand Circuits RFC1962 The PPP Compression Control Protocol (CCP) ? RFC1968 The PPP Encryption Control Protocol (ECP) ? RFC1973 PPP in Frame Relay -- James Carlson, IP Systems Group? Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.234W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.497N Fax +1 781 442 1677 _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 29 09:21:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA23611 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:21:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYmTo-0002KP-Ct for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:26:16 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYm8K-0003Uf-6t; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:04:04 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYm4J-0002LY-Qm for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:59:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21773 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYm9E-0001oh-AB for pppext@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:05:01 -0500 Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM ([129.148.13.40]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iATDxrVu005226 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:59:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (phorcys.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.143]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id iATDxqJd017961 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from phorcys.East.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iATDxqR4011435; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from carlsonj@localhost) by phorcys.East.Sun.COM (8.13.1+Sun/8.13.1/Submit) id iATDxq20011432; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:59:52 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16811.11096.370401.888642@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:59:52 -0500 From: James Carlson To: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [Pppext] Old RFCs going to Historic In-Reply-To: Carsten Bormann's message of 29 November 2004 14:49:31 References: <16811.7922.778940.799381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <7F1DD89B-420D-11D9-82C1-000A95DC4DB6@tzi.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 21.3.1 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: pppext@ietf.org X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carsten Bormann writes: > > Those marked with "X" below have NOT been stricken from the list and > > will become Historic unless someone speaks up. This includes > > AppleTalk, IPX, and the PPP MIBs. > > This makes me rather curious about the intent. I came to this rather late, by way of a cc on someone else's reply to the list. I think the intent is to make as many old things Historic as possible, and the chosen method is to mark everything prior to some date (2000, perhaps) as "on the list," and request that those who care about those older documents complain to the document editor. > > X RFC1378 The PPP AppleTalk Control Protocol (ATCP) > > X RFC1552 The PPP Internetworking Packet Exchange Control Protocol > > (IPXCP) > > AT and IPX may be historic, but if you still have them, these documents > describe the currently agreed way how to send them over PPP, no? > (But then, I don't care about AT or IPX.) They do continue to describe those protocols, and RFCs are effectively immutable, but I think the intent is to say that new implementations ought not bother with them. > > X RFC1618 PPP over ISDN > > While this is not a particularly great document, I believe it is the > standard for PPP over ISDN (B channels). > (In case you don't know, ISDN is 20 years old but definitely *not* any > more historic at this time than is analog telephony.) > > Something is getting derailed about this whole de-crufting process here. That's somewhat close to what I said in an earlier message to that group. As for RFC 1618, it has had trouble with reality (is octet sync really recommended with ISDN?), but perhaps needs to be removed from the list. -- James Carlson, IP Systems Group? Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.234W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.497N Fax +1 781 442 1677 _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 29 10:09:56 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28487 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:09:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYnF0-0003ei-MU for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:15:03 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYn6b-0001zn-OT; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:06:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYluO-0000f4-Te for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:49:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA20828 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:49:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imh.informatik.uni-bremen.de ([134.102.224.4] helo=informatik.uni-bremen.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYlzI-0001XN-JW for pppext@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:54:46 -0500 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (imh [134.102.224.4]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iATDnXGh008128; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:49:34 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <16811.7922.778940.799381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16811.7922.778940.799381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7F1DD89B-420D-11D9-82C1-000A95DC4DB6@tzi.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [Pppext] Old RFCs going to Historic Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:49:31 +0100 To: James Carlson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS/Sophos at informatik.uni-bremen.de X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:06:19 -0500 Cc: pppext@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Those marked with "X" below have NOT been stricken from the list and > will become Historic unless someone speaks up. This includes > AppleTalk, IPX, and the PPP MIBs. This makes me rather curious about the intent. > X RFC1378 The PPP AppleTalk Control Protocol (ATCP) > X RFC1552 The PPP Internetworking Packet Exchange Control Protocol > (IPXCP) AT and IPX may be historic, but if you still have them, these documents describe the currently agreed way how to send them over PPP, no? (But then, I don't care about AT or IPX.) > X RFC1618 PPP over ISDN While this is not a particularly great document, I believe it is the standard for PPP over ISDN (B channels). (In case you don't know, ISDN is 20 years old but definitely *not* any more historic at this time than is analog telephony.) Something is getting derailed about this whole de-crufting process here. Gruesse, Carsten _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 29 10:10:55 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28669 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYnFy-0003h9-8E for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:16:02 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYn6c-0001zs-D7; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:06:22 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYmEv-0004n2-Fi for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:10:53 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA22945 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from imh.informatik.uni-bremen.de ([134.102.224.4] helo=informatik.uni-bremen.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYmJq-00026J-7Z for pppext@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:15:58 -0500 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (imh [134.102.224.4]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iATEAlMb020849; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:10:48 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <16811.11096.370401.888642@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16811.7922.778940.799381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <7F1DD89B-420D-11D9-82C1-000A95DC4DB6@tzi.org> <16811.11096.370401.888642@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <764E1B80-4210-11D9-82C1-000A95DC4DB6@tzi.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Carsten Bormann Subject: Re: [Pppext] Old RFCs going to Historic Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:10:45 +0100 To: James Carlson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS/Sophos at informatik.uni-bremen.de X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:06:20 -0500 Cc: pppext@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As for RFC 1618, it has had trouble with reality Yes... Apparently, the (US-based) author was rather confused about ISDN. A common situation in 1994, so I don't blame him. > (is octet sync really > recommended with ISDN?), Well, 1618 says this should be done only in the presence of prior configuration (default is bit-sync, which is unfortunate, but reality). > but perhaps needs to be removed from the > list. Yes. The "right thing" would be to write this simple document up again, removing all the cruft (octet-sync, BONDING, V.120 -- does anybody else feel a dozen years younger? :-), and moving it on to DS. *THAT* would be de-crufting. Gruesse, Carsten _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext From pppext-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 29 10:50:21 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03372 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:50:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYns8-0004fX-0B for pppext-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:55:29 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYnkJ-000618-4F; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:47:23 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CYnT0-0002pm-7n for pppext@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:29:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01435 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:29:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from firewall.manifest-solutions.com ([209.115.19.254] helo=lithik.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CYnXs-0004B1-M5 for pppext@ietf.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:34:36 -0500 Received: from [24.93.127.208] (account karl HELO [10.0.0.6]) by lithik.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 718074; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:28:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: <16811.11096.370401.888642@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16811.7922.778940.799381@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <7F1DD89B-420D-11D9-82C1-000A95DC4DB6@tzi.org> <16811.11096.370401.888642@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5C79C992-421B-11D9-9FED-000D9335A2B4@columbus.rr.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Karl Fox Subject: Re: [Pppext] Old RFCs going to Historic Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:28:46 -0500 To: James Carlson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: pppext@ietf.org X-BeenThere: pppext@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: PPP Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pppext-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: pppext-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Nov 29, 2004, at 8:59 AM, James Carlson wrote: > ... and RFCs are effectively > immutable, but I think the intent is to say that new implementations > ought not bother with them. Does this really apply to the MIBs too? Is it really true that nobody implements or uses these? Karl _______________________________________________ Pppext mailing list Pppext@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pppext