From albertojgc@gmail.com Mon Jan 11 11:43:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459EE3A6920 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:43:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XmCeDjpLPPmF for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC59A3A685E for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so14251123bwz.29 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:43:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kX4SHfz/zaI985fOTti6cfGvHeDAd9pNYvFjhcKp+eo=; b=tlvEozdxnqYuXgOzJb6b2qAmhPqaekMyQRZMyGkLpTA3jjpT+z7PiScd6o7dGns5Q0 22MulDAg4o2ByG1pIr5ChVj1nm3rMhYYzYbyL3tTqIpiZMoFmgzUlZpgwPSxp6ZHpCbG 1T3/t1HBZlwas3cf5Bv8m+WtSYV74mGUokb6I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=vFUC8s2nY49f+S0bCw0Vbg5PqRWlz1jg9O3c+VT22xRCcrkjm9MdHGzBUY58yfR1h1 peXTWxfHw1ebgZGQcO1Um3Tn6+0OMaqMyo3aVMaX/C+ZkQevMbKHWtivSp43kl5zhuXH rqluxYDK6umqVZuAMqZQDITqzLMJa3zSTnUUM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.14.84 with SMTP id f20mr4662100bka.209.1263238982926; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:43:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:43:02 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:43:16 -0000 Hi Yunfei, all, First of all, happy new year to everybody! Regarding to the point about the peer list in the tracker protocol and the peer list in the peer protocol, I suggest to change their names according to the following: - Tracker protocol peer list --> deputy list - Peer protocol peer list --> members list Concretely, these names are inspired by the CoolStreaming paper [http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~jcliu/Papers/CoolStreaming.pdf]. Here, the authors define that "In a basic node joining algorithm, a newly joined node first contacts the origin node, which randomly selects a deputy node from its mCache and redirects the new node to the deputy. The new node can =A0then obtain a list of partner candidates from the deputy, and contacts these candidates to establish its partners in the overlay". Regarding to the member list, peers using the peer protocol may exchange the peers they know in the system (overlay), that is, members of the overlay. BR, Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation =3D=3D=3D=3D From:=A0ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=A0[mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext zhangyunfei Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:18 PM To: liuhy @ uusee;=A0meng.yu@zte.com.cn Cc:=A0ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ??: Re: ppsp revised charter proposal Thanks Harold for your clarification from UUSee's experience. One more question:People may be confused about the "peer list" in the tracker protocol and the "peer list"in the peer protocol since they are same literally. We may express it clearer about this. Any good suggestions? BR Yunfei zhangyunfei 2009-12-28 From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Jan 11 18:39:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A393A6951 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:39:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.176 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.176 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fRmX9ywpSHPj for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0813A6859 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.240]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010011210505147-6581 ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:50:51 +0800 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:36:40 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <201001121036405151387@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-12 10:50:51, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-12 10:39:52, Serialize complete at 2010-01-12 10:39:52 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon100125258437_=====" Subject: [ppsp] CCNC P2P for Networked Consumer Electronics panel info X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 02:39:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon100125258437_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Hi all, A PPSP related panel will be held today in IEEE CCNC2010.I have planned to host the panel but unfortunately there are some time conflict with other meetings.Thanks John Buford for his help in moderating the panel and therefore the panel scope is broadened in more areas besides P2P streaming and PPSP,like VoIP and online games. You can visit the following website for more information. http://cms.comsoc.org/eprise/main/SiteGen/CCNC_2010/Content/Home/Conference_Agenda/Industry_Technology_Panels.html BR Yunfei zhangyunfei 2010-01-12 --=====003_Dragon100125258437_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Hi all,
   A PPSP related panel will be held today in IEEE CCNC2010.I have planned to host the panel but unfortunately there are some time conflict with other meetings.Thanks John Buford for his help in moderating the panel and therefore the panel scope is broadened in more areas besides P2P streaming and PPSP,like VoIP and online games.
 
BR
Yunfei
     
 
zhangyunfei
2010-01-12
 --=====003_Dragon100125258437_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Jan 11 18:47:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4DB3A6946 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:47:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.325 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.325 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.851, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Ebkswt4U38h for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6A43A6962 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.240]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010011210582209-6808 ; Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:58:22 +0800 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:44:10 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "=?gb2312?B?QWxiZXJ0b19Kb3PpX0dvbnrhbGV6X0NlbGE=?=" References: Message-ID: <201001121044105783567@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-12 10:58:22, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-12 10:47:17, Serialize complete at 2010-01-12 10:47:17 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon052442234031_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 02:47:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon052442234031_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQWxiZXJ0byBhbmQgYWxsLA0KICAgSXQgc2VlbXMgZ29vZCBpZiB3ZSByZXBsYWNlIHRoZSB0 ZXJtIG9mIHBlZXIgbGlzdCBpbiB0cmFja2VyIHByb3RvY29sIGFuZCBwZWVyIHByb3RvY29sIGJ5 IGFwcGFyZW50bHkgZGlmZmVyZW50IHRlcm1zLkkgdGhlcmVmb3JlIHN1Z2dlc3QgdG8gdXBkYXRl IHRoZSBuYW1lcyBiYXNlZCBvbiBBbGJlcnRvJ3MgcHJvcG9zYWw6DQotICBUcmFja2VyICBwcm90 b2NvbCAgcGVlciAgbGlzdCAgLS0gPiAgZGVwdXR5IHBlZXIgbGlzdA0KLSAgUGVlciAgcHJvdG9j b2wgIHBlZXIgIGxpc3QgIC0tID4gIG1lbWJlciBwZWVyIGxpc3QNCkJ1dCBpdCBhbHNvIHJhaXNl cyBhIG5ldyBwcm9ibGVtOk5lZWQgd2UgZXhwbGFpbiB0aGUgbmV3IHRlcm1zP0FueSBzdWdnZXN0 aW9ucz8NCg0KQlINCll1bmZlaQ0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCnpoYW5neXVuZmVpDQoyMDEwLTAxLTEyDQoN 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--=====003_Dragon052442234031_=====-- From lars.eggert@nokia.com Wed Jan 13 01:18:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DE43A6864 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:18:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8VqKUOKaJPi for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FF43A6827 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (vaebh106.europe.nokia.com [10.160.244.32]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o0D9HhBT019592 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:18:13 +0200 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by vaebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:17:57 +0200 Received: from mgw-sa01.ext.nokia.com ([147.243.1.47]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:17:46 +0200 Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-sa01.ext.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o0D9Hj82009460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:17:45 +0200 From: Lars Eggert X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-42--548271426; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:17:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1768BE04-9D8C-45C7-ABFD-25170BC22217@nokia.com> To: ppsp@ietf.org References: <94705745-40BC-4078-908B-98CE0B0290B6@nokia.com> <200912211637228434347@chinamobile.com> <1768BE04-9D8C-45C7-ABFD-25170BC22217@nokia.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [0.0.0.0]); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:17:39 +0200 (EET) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2010 09:17:46.0268 (UTC) FILETIME=[44D63DC0:01CA9431] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [ppsp] BOF follow-up X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:18:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail-42--548271426 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2009-12-21, at 11:16, Eggert Lars (Nokia-NRC/Espoo) wrote: > I don't have any further suggestions, you guys have done a really good = job already. > My plan is to take the revised charter proposal to the IESG to start = chartering discussions. is there now a complete, updated charter proposal or are the discussions = still ongoing? Thanks, Lars= --Apple-Mail-42--548271426 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGbDCCAyUw ggKOoAMCAQICEAdjk36sXKbnVn15S0/qUp0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA5MDYxNTExMjYxNFoXDTEwMDYxNTExMjYx NFowXDEPMA0GA1UEBBMGRWdnZXJ0MQ0wCwYDVQQqEwRMYXJzMRQwEgYDVQQDEwtMYXJzIEVnZ2Vy dDEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYVbGFycy5lZ2dlcnRAbm9raWEuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA7mR8A+Pn0/FsUkMX6Pyjw+FL3IFcJk8GaKV5VJ40TMI0Wh8oq20cqA9X uqnVDW9WztKwH+o+msJenLwWpprbpJm4TImYGbnUJxYyN8gb81aiX1Bw2xCpJ5z3H2+8DsReJLuY Rdl4bVvaIxLIL4odmfsRwzPyNkOK8LRtfl6OPcaDOlFWzbikULfIVGGu7BqK4lxQSpYwwpZkOMOB 6nnBSfUOtBEmqO+qZG/nL/JxWFV5vxQgg4XHbsMMTxFf6+ji18BD09BUIfDLTuJoCzFmQhrM9vLT VuRhHWSL20LoafGjXv6mPt3i9IGJHpVb2dMQUgOgRyWHTKiUJVU/rUTdWwIDAQABo14wXDAqBgUr ZQEEAQQhMB8CAQAwGjAYAgEEBBNMMnVNeWZmQk5VYk5KSmNkWjJzMCAGA1UdEQQZMBeBFWxhcnMu ZWdnZXJ0QG5va2lhLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBADUx+67n98wt I1vydB90HeSZP4Y64VCxxb0NxGGFvfc2+JdVKeHJ/xT+l+ygYKsWNwJJprkPi4WZ5G0crkq4VK1H 5drEJIztpSPVfWI05vPidaaGuuuCR+6MvJMtOTEYEvc/6eovBnkrzRf9x5x5EyuJXAWTeuBADg80 QI3vQ1tZMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTAT BgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3duMRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUg Q29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIG A1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25h bC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoXDTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjEL MAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNV BAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUA A4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAK MNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7 n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAw QwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29tL1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJl ZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAcMRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRl TGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswNo2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9M Ibj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSeJVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowg T2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/XV9lTzGCAxAwggMMAgEBMHYw YjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAq BgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhAHY5N+rFym51Z9eUtP 6lKdMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggFvMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkF MQ8XDTEwMDExMzA5MTczNFowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFAeE9ObLv009AL0Pla8GWYvYgtC+MIGF BgkrBgEEAYI3EAQxeDB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGlu ZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBD QQIQB2OTfqxcpudWfXlLT+pSnTCBhwYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxeKB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUw IwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVy c29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQB2OTfqxcpudWfXlLT+pSnTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AASCAQAaIdXou/0Si+96sjxYNtf6s+dIQW5oO0pbIRU52xTA11ye6AiOxHL3iQrUj7jZpe750VbY MYMoeCvjCwNXRhz1SDlo4b6BtSDNa2mzovwPti8ThLOUYlPbn0WXsBHmDrLKylT87vrHvOw3/rV5 X74kfc7MlwaWppmRdPY6ox2dFPE3sIlTMRP7PPFcz0XSfidkj/cF8OJUN7Zk4m8HSMnSnPK53CxM kBikBwrahB3f2S2ulxIPAafTjvhs4ExWqg1iVevuTb9gpFJ8aObPhlGkhgNAwlK58y4chZQ4UWg1 e6PEuvsnl3T6D3yLW6uOcL2SstP8MvvYoml6KPBk62CGAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-42--548271426-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Wed Jan 13 01:32:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4423A6827 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:32:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xNSYS0xoLUAu for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3197E3A686A for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0D9WG3W026488 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:32:17 +0100 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0D9WC3A014110; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:32:16 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:32:08 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA9433.46B4081D" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:32:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ppsp revised charter proposal Thread-Index: AcqGCMNXo8wcKJPZQ6OKWSU9J1I1ugOJ9IUw References: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2010 09:32:08.0804 (UTC) FILETIME=[46F2CA40:01CA9433] Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:32:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9433.46B4081D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. =20 The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. = using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the design of = PPSP will consider how it can be combined with the transport = mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of PPSP will = also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered = media). This includes considering various media descriptions (e.g. = data chunk description in peer protocol) after investigating different = media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to incorporate their features in = the protocol. =20 This somehow mixes different issues: - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) - NAT traversal (included?) - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) - Media descriptions (included?) =20 Most of the items are not exluded from the WG=B4s scope and should not = be mentioned under this headline. My proposal would be: My proposal would be:My proposal would be:My proposal would be:My = proposal would be:My proposal would be:My proposal would be: My proposal would be:To add =20 =20 =20 Media descriptions (included?) Most- Media descriptions (included?) - Media descriptions (included?) - Media descriptions (included?) =20 =20 ________________________________ From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 9:52 AM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Dear all, The latest version of PPSP charter is attached.Welcome to comment on = this.I guess many of you guys are enjoying the Christmas holiday.Merry = X'mas and happy new year!Wish to hear your valuable suggestions in the = beginning of 2010.:) Hope PPSP can have a great development in the new year with all of = your participation and contribution. The main modifications are: 1)Para 2: a)wish to make it better understood about what the tracker protocol and = the peer protocol differ in and reply the BOF comments that the two = protocols may be a single one; b)Add the NAT issue raised in the BOF; 2)Para3: a) Para3-bullet 4,adding the gossip communication in peer protocol as = discussed in the mailing list; b)Para3-bullet7, deleted as suggested by Lars that optional part can be = detered until we think it clearer; 3)Para4, adding LEDBAT as reference raised in the BOF. 4)Para5,deleting privay raised in the BOF. 5)Para6: a)bullet1:Adding the description of considering the NAT traversal and = the multiple stream senario as discussed in the BOF and mailing list. BR Yunfei=20 *************************************************************************= Description of PPSP Working Group: The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP WG) is = chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP = protocols) for multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, = caches, content distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) = to participate in P2P streaming systems in both fixed and mobile = Internet. There are two kinds of components in PPSP protocols, i.e., "trackers" = and "peers". PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol - a = signaling protocol between "trackers" and "peers", and the PPSP peer = protocol - a signaling protocol among "peers". The two protocols ensure = peers to get streaming data within certain time constraints. PPSP = tracker protocol deals with the initial and periodical exchanges between = tracker and peers: initially the peers contact the tracker to report = their static information (like IP address, NAT types and other useful = things) and get a list of peers for a specific channel or streaming file = from the tracker; periodically the tracker maintains lists of = participating peers according to the report from the peers about their = status information. PPSP peer protocol deals with the exchanges among = peers. The peer exchanges its data availability and neighbor peer = information with other peers. With these information, it can connect = with these peers for further data downloading. =20 =20 This WG's primary tasks are to produce: 1. A "problem statement" document describing the problems, incentives, = and scope of developing the PPSP protocols, as well as common = terminologies and concepts. =20 2. A "requirements" document listing the requirements on the designed = PPSP protocols (e.g., general functionality and performance requirements = of PPSP protocols or basic types of information that PPSP protocols = should communicate to facilitate P2P streaming). 3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current P2P = streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and = key issues in best practice. 4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP peer protocol. This protocol = will define how PPSP peers advertise data availability and exchange = neighbor peers. The protocol will also define the requests and responses = of data chunks among PPSP peers. =20 5. A proposed standard defining the PPSP tracker protocol. This protocol = will define how PPSP peers inform and request information from PPSP = trackers and how PPSP trackers reply to the requests. =20 6. A "usage document" explaining how the protocols defined above, along = with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can = inter-operate; and how they may be integrated together to produce = complete P2P streaming systems. =20 The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close = participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify = baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines = that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will = seek to define such extensions and present to the respective working = groups. The design of PPSP has to consider security issues. The protocol = document will contain a complete description of the security issues that = PPSP should address. =20 The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. = using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the design of = PPSP will consider how it can be combined with the transport = mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of PPSP will = also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered = media). This includes considering various media descriptions (e.g. = data chunk description in peer protocol) after investigating different = media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to incorporate their features in = the protocol. 2. Network coding mechanisms in P2P streaming. Network coding may be = used in P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current = charter. =20 3. Play-out mechanisms including streaming control (e.g., pause, = fast-forward, and rewind). =20 4. Algorithms that may be different in different deployments (e.g., = chunk selection, local storage strategies). =20 5. Research type questions related to P2P streaming. This WG will = instead forward such questions to the IRTF P2PRG or other RG as = appropriate. Examples include cache management. Goals and Milestones: Apr 2010 Working Group Last Call for problem statement Jun 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational document Aug 2010 Working Group Last Call for architecture survey Aug 2010 Working Group Last Call for requirements Oct 2010 Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational document Oct 2010 Submit requirements to IESG as Informational document Apr 2011 Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer protocol Apr 2011 Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker protocol Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Nov 2011 Working Group Last Call of usage document Nov 2011 Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP document Jan 2012 Submit usage document to IESG as Informational document Jan 2012 Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational document Apr 2012 Dissolve or re-charter=20 =20 =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2009-12-26 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9433.46B4081D Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
in general I think, the charter is in a good=20 shape.
Perhaps in some points clarifications are=20 possible.
 
The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope:
1. = Transport=20 mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or = UDP,=20 unicast or multicast, etc. However the  = design  of =20 PPSP  will  consider how it can be = combined with the=20 transport mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of = PPSP will=20 also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams  (layered  media).  This includes considering = various media=20 descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer protocol) after = investigating=20 different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to incorporate their = features=20 in the protocol.
 
This somehow mixes different=20 issues:
- Transmission protocol selecion (not=20 included)
- NAT traversal=20 (included?)
- Usage of more then one stream for one channel=20 (included?)
- Media descriptions=20 (included?)
 
Most of the items  are not exluded from the WG=B4s scope = and should=20 not be mentioned under this=20 headline.<= /FONT>
My proposal would=20 be:=
My proposal would be:My proposal would be:My proposal would be:My proposal would be:My proposal would be:My proposal would=20 be:= <= /FONT>
My proposal would=20 be:= T= o=20 add
 
<= /FONT> 
<= /FONT> 
Media descriptions=20 (included?)
Most- Media descriptions=20 (included?)
- Media descriptions=20 (included?)
=
- Media descriptions=20 (included?)
=
 
 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 9:52 = AM
To:=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter=20 proposal

 Dear=20 all,

   The latest=20 version of PPSP charter is attached.Welcome to comment on this.I guess = many of=20 you guys are enjoying the Christmas holiday.Merry X'mas and happy new = year!Wish=20 to hear your valuable suggestions in the beginning of=20 2010.:)

  =20 Hope PPSP can have a great development in the new year with all of = your=20 participation and contribution.

The main = modifications=20 are:

1)Para 2:

a)wish to = make it=20 better understood about what the tracker protocol and the peer protocol = differ=20 in and reply the BOF comments that the two protocols may be a single=20 one;

b)Add the = NAT issue=20 raised in the BOF;

2)Para3:

a)=20 Para3-bullet 4,adding the gossip = communication in peer protocol as discussed in the mailing=20 list;

b)Para3-bullet7, deleted = as=20 suggested by Lars that optional part can be detered until we think it=20 clearer;

3)Para4,=20 adding LEDBAT as reference raised in the BOF.

4)Para5,deleting privay = raised in=20 the BOF.

5)Para6:

a)bullet1:Adding the = description of=20 considering the NAT traversal and the multiple stream senario as = discussed in=20 the BOF and mailing list.

BR

Yunfei 

****************************************************************= *********

Description of PPSP Working = Group:

The Peer-to-Peer (P2P) Streaming Protocol working group (PPSP = WG) is=20 chartered to develop standard signaling protocols (called PPSP = protocols) for=20 multiple types of entities (e.g. intelligent endpoints, caches, content=20 distribution network nodes, and/or other edge devices) to participate in = P2P=20 streaming systems in both fixed and mobile=20 Internet.


There are two kinds of components in PPSP protocols, i.e., = =93trackers=94 and=20 =93peers=94. PPSP protocols include the PPSP tracker protocol =96 a = signaling protocol=20 between =93trackers=94 and =93peers=94, and the PPSP peer protocol =96 a = signaling=20 protocol among =93peers=94. The two protocols ensure peers to get = streaming data=20 within certain time constraints. PPSP tracker protocol deals with the = initial=20 and periodical exchanges between tracker and peers: initially the peers = contact=20 the tracker to report their static information (like IP address, NAT = types and=20 other useful things) and get a list of peers for a specific channel or = streaming=20 file from the tracker; periodically the tracker maintains lists of = participating=20 peers according to the report from the peers about their status = information.=20 PPSP peer protocol deals with the exchanges among peers. The peer = exchanges its=20 data availability and neighbor peer information with other peers. With = these=20 information, it can connect with these peers for further data=20 downloading.  

 

This WG's primary tasks are to produce:
1. A =93problem = statement=94=20 document describing the problems, incentives, and scope of developing = the PPSP=20 protocols, as well as common terminologies and=20 concepts.

 

2. A =93requirements=94 document listing the requirements on = the designed=20 PPSP protocols (e.g., general functionality and performance requirements = of PPSP=20 protocols or basic types of information that PPSP protocols should = communicate=20 to facilitate P2P streaming).


3. An "architectural survey" document explaining the current = P2P=20 streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming, and = key=20 issues in best practice.


4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP = peer=20 protocol. This protocol will define how PPSP peers advertise data = availability=20 and exchange neighbor peers. The protocol will also define the requests = and=20 responses of data chunks among PPSP peers.

 

5. A=20 proposed standard defining the PPSP tracker protocol. This protocol will = define=20 how PPSP peers inform and request information from PPSP trackers and how = PPSP=20 trackers reply to the requests.

 

6. A =93usage document=94 explaining how the protocols defined = above, along=20 with existing IETF protocols, such as RELAOD, ALTO and RTSP, can = inter-operate;=20 and how they may be integrated together to produce complete P2P = streaming=20 systems.

 


The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires = close=20 participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT and=20 MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, = LEDBAT=20 and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT=20 and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and = present to=20 the respective working groups.


The design of PPSP has to consider security issues. The = protocol document=20 will contain a complete description of the security issues that PPSP = should=20 address.

 

The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope:
1. = Transport=20 mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or = UDP,=20 unicast or multicast, etc. However the  = design  of =20 PPSP  will  consider how it can be = combined with the=20 transport mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of = PPSP will=20 also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams  (layered  media).  This includes considering = various media=20 descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer protocol) after = investigating=20 different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to incorporate their = features=20 in the protocol.


2. Network coding mechanisms in P2P streaming. Network coding = may be used=20 in P2P streaming, but its support is beyond the scope of current=20 charter.

 

3. Play-out mechanisms including streaming control (e.g., = pause,=20 fast-forward, and rewind).

 

4. Algorithms that may be different in different deployments = (e.g., chunk=20 selection, local storage strategies).

 

5. Research type questions related to P2P streaming. This WG = will instead=20 forward such questions to the IRTF P2PRG or other RG as appropriate. = Examples=20 include cache management.

Goals and Milestones:

Apr 2010

Working Group Last Call for problem=20 statement

Jun 2010

Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational=20 document

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for architecture=20 survey

Aug 2010

Working Group Last Call for=20 requirements

Oct

2010

Submit architecture survey to IESG as Informational=20 document

Oct 2010

Submit requirements to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP peer=20 protocol

Apr

2011

Working Group Last Call for PPSP tracker=20 protocol

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Aug 2011

Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of usage=20 document

Nov 2011

Working Group Last Call of mobility BCP=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit usage document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Jan 2012

Submit mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr 2012

Dissolve or re-charter=20

 

 

zhangyunfei
2009-12-26
------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9433.46B4081D-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Wed Jan 13 01:47:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4A63A69B1 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:47:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ycDu1sxeeK9k for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4D7F3A695F for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0D9lBtu004179 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:11 +0100 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0D9lBHq002566; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:11 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:10 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA9435.60526BE7" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Thread-Index: AcqGCMNXo8wcKJPZQ6OKWSU9J1I1ugOKtjdQ References: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2010 09:47:10.0910 (UTC) FILETIME=[60A53DE0:01CA9435] Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:47:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9435.60526BE7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 (this time the finished mail) =20 in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. =20 The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. = using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the design of = PPSP will consider how it can be combined with the transport = mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of PPSP will = also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered = media). This includes considering various media descriptions (e.g. = data chunk description in peer protocol) after investigating different = media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to incorporate their features in = the protocol. =20 This somehow mixes different issues: - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) - NAT traversal (included?) - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) - Media descriptions (included?) =20 Most of the items are not exluded from the WG=B4s scope and should not = be mentioned under this headline. My proposal would be: - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. = using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc.=20 - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in = scope of the WG. =20 The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close = participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify = baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines = that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will = seek to define such extensions and present to the respective working = groups. =20 What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the = related needed extensions are known?=20 My proposal: The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close = participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such = extensions and present to the respective working groups for evalution. =20 Best Regards Christian Schmidt =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9435.60526BE7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
(this time = the finished=20 mail)
 
in general I think, the charter is in a good=20 shape.
Perhaps in some points clarifications are=20 possible.
 
The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope:
1. = Transport=20 mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or = UDP,=20 unicast or multicast, etc. However the  = design  of =20 PPSP  will  consider how it can be = combined with the=20 transport mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of = PPSP will=20 also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams  (layered  media).  This includes considering = various media=20 descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer protocol) after = investigating=20 different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to incorporate their = features=20 in the protocol.
 
This somehow mixes different=20 issues:
- Transmission protocol selecion (not=20 included)
- NAT traversal=20 (included?)
- Usage of more then one stream for one channel=20 (included?)
- Media descriptions=20 (included?)
 
Most of the items  are not exluded from the WG=B4s scope = and should=20 not be mentioned under this=20 headline.<= /FONT>
My proposal would=20 be:=
- to shorten = point one of=20 excluded topic=20 to:=
1. Transport=20 mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or = UDP,=20 unicast or multicast, etc.=20
- to add a = short passage=20 before the WGs primary=20 tasks:
NAT traversal, = the usage of=20 multiple streams (layered media) are in scope of the=20 WG.=
 
The work planned for the PPSP = WG is=20 distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF = WGs,=20 particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it = cannot=20 modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP = determines=20 that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will = seek to=20 define such extensions and present to the respective working=20 groups.
 
What is the=20 reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the = related needed=20 extensions are=20 known? 
My=20 proposal:<= /SPAN>
The work = planned for the=20 PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in = other=20 IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP = determines that=20 extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek = to=20 define such extensions and present to the respective working groups for=20 evalution.=
 
Best=20 Regards
Christian=20 Schmidt
 
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9435.60526BE7-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Jan 13 03:21:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1927F3A687B for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:21:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.283, BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zRC3GkqLBH8z for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:21:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1E63A683D for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010011319324761-19666 ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:32:47 +0800 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:18:28 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Lars Eggert" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <94705745-40BC-4078-908B-98CE0B0290B6@nokia.com> <200912211637228434347@chinamobile.com> <1768BE04-9D8C-45C7-ABFD-25170BC22217@nokia.com> Message-ID: <201001131918244062431@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-13 19:32:47, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-13 19:21:42, Serialize complete at 2010-01-13 19:21:42 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon751775438126_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] BOF follow-up X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:21:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon751775438126_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgTGFycywNCiAgICBTb21lIG5ldyBzdWdnZXN0aW9ucyBhcmUganVzdCByYWlzZWQgYnkgQWxi ZXJ0byBhbmQgQ2hyaXN0aWFuKEd1ZXNzIGJlY2F1c2UganVzdCBmaW5pc2hpbmcgdGhlIFgnbWFz IGhvbGlkYXkpLk5lZWQgc29tZSBtb3JlIHRpbWUgdG8gZGlzY3Vzcy5QbGFuIHRvIGZpbmlzaCBp dCBieSBuZXh0IHdlZWsuVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgcmVtaW5kaW5ncy4NCg0KQlINCll1bmZlaQ0K DQoNCg0KDQp6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaQ0KMjAxMC0wMS0xMw0KDQoNCg0Kt6K8/sjLo7ogTGFycyBFZ2dl cnQNCreiy83Ksbzko7ogMjAxMC0wMS0xMyAxNzoyOTozNQ0KytW8/sjLo7ogcHBzcEBpZXRmLm9y Zw0Ks63LzaO6IA0K1vfM4qO6IFJlOiBbcHBzcF0gQk9GIGZvbGxvdy11cA0KDQpIaSwNCg0KT24g IDIwMDktMTItMjEsICBhdCAgMTE6MTYsICBFZ2dlcnQgIExhcnMgIChOb2tpYS1OUkMvRXNwb28p 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aGFydGVyICZuYnNwO3Byb3Bvc2FsICZuYnNwO3RvICZuYnNwO3RoZSAmbmJzcDtJRVNHIA0KJm5i c3A7dG8gJm5ic3A7c3RhcnQgJm5ic3A7Y2hhcnRlcmluZyAmbmJzcDtkaXNjdXNzaW9ucy48L0RJ Vj4NCjxESVY+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPmlzICZuYnNwO3RoZXJlICZuYnNwO25vdyAmbmJz cDthICZuYnNwO2NvbXBsZXRlLCAmbmJzcDt1cGRhdGVkIA0KJm5ic3A7Y2hhcnRlciAmbmJzcDtw cm9wb3NhbCAmbmJzcDtvciAmbmJzcDthcmUgJm5ic3A7dGhlICZuYnNwO2Rpc2N1c3Npb25zIA0K Jm5ic3A7c3RpbGwgJm5ic3A7b25nb2luZz88L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElW PlRoYW5rcyw8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+TGFyc19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fPC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPnBwc3AgJm5ic3A7bWFpbGluZyAmbmJzcDtsaXN0 PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPnBwc3BAaWV0Zi5vcmc8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9wcHNwPC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48 L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon751775438126_=====-- From davidbryan@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 04:51:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFB33A69B6 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:51:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.377 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.377 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krifeeod1P2b for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f50.google.com (mail-pw0-f50.google.com [209.85.160.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57753A69AA for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by pwi20 with SMTP id 20so3044104pwi.29 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:51:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uzeddRrKK2Wly6l2+27sTu5QetPiG+HVcnxvTezoRNY=; b=Vv11Qc9ou1WCHPtBIWap/45am2QLh516mjo/W7tNPAB/9aYKOoxfIQ3Vo8z8gf/Dxu 1DO7tzb7ZmTZ3qdMYeCqvoNLjrcuG+tPCo/c73yqRghfVynldaYvytrnyarBCvZqBjb5 5aC8JvvFBRt/vd3ZGm5oo7gOAVpT8C7RjySIA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=LEqiX4XllIL9pcYaXKG0OYtLUyj5obaNdk/UiuUlnbbahJ+dDcAopSu2PGJKdloe7H dQMI419X6uGgFQViQV4sFYDBf8nWPv6U4Z+IYN0hor9whCB0pYTVWHYuQuWiybZc5RE9 xDQbD8EoC6FX/2cRoo41brLyhtArZi9sXhdk8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: davidbryan@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.61.19 with SMTP id j19mr2754300wfa.201.1263387110974; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:51:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:51:50 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 712259bc27e0e7c9 Message-ID: <8b2769931001130451o2554a99cx881ab6c34474c61a@mail.gmail.com> From: "David A. Bryan" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:52:00 -0000 So looking at the change suggested below, essentially you are looking to remove the sentence: "The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors." Overall, this section of the charter is very much like (even borrowed from) the P2PSIP charter, where the similar line basically says the P2PSIP group, in itself, is not authorized to modify SIP. I think there is a similar intended here, so I wouldn't support removing the sentence entirely as you suggest, but I think different wording is might be needed (i.e., using the work "assume" almost implies that the protocols won't need to be changed, when he right wording should be more about PPSP not being the place to modify them if they need it. How about: "The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. While the PPSP WG cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT or MMUSIC behaviors, if PPSP determines that extensions or modifications are required, PPSP may seek to define such extensions and present them to the respective working groups." Thoughts? David On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > Hi, > > (this time the finished mail) > > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. > > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. usin= g > TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the=A0 design=A0 of=A0 PPS= P=A0 will > consider how it can be combined with the transport mechanisms, including = NAT > traversal problem. The design of PPSP will also consider the scenario of > transmission=A0of=A0multiple streams=A0 (layered=A0 media).=A0 This inclu= des > considering various media descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in pe= er > protocol) after investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC= , > MDC) to incorporate their features in the protocol. > > This somehow mixes different issues: > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) > - NAT traversal (included?) > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) > - Media descriptions (included?) > > Most of the items=A0 are not exluded from the WG=B4s scope and should not= be > mentioned under this headline. > My proposal would be: > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. usin= g > TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in scope= of > the WG. > > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LED= BAT > and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, AL= TO, > LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP= , > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensio= ns > and present to the respective working groups. > > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the > related=A0needed extensions are known? > My proposal: > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LED= BAT > and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and > MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present t= o > the respective working groups for evalution. > > Best Regards > Christian Schmidt > > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > From albertojgc@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 08:31:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E5828C17F for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:31:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stIphqNP1Q-4 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:31:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26AEC28C17D for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so15792140bwz.29 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:31:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=zSumij9aICSQJIy/pD31c7DJM2Rkks3WUpTCkcV67Kk=; b=hj6tUMsDLtFasUwPvG4qsyHHk6Bvtrq2VXaLl7CuBdQBWF4q4MsrvULhHwlwxvIuZu B/Lut+yKr36t0bftAJfd96ZRM6qCfK7n/IlIm50lM0Trsmt+NpVFne3DQ4oJtgCbWrXD jb55UngQ/MjMNzYIIrh8bUTL72sxrg8/+b+/c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=AZYUcys0Dz7963abcqr2uFoAnKSjTOb5EO6kmAZHBebBNbC2jAAulyiSI2hVgnHPgg MuY2v+3bGDFJjtT4dLLyfQqT3egamgylF5UW2Ykoov0vVTGi/cKMkzxrxgzwuvpRRxos AT48EWIqYq+TnM6AyMtAKDq79V+jMVBt6Z9Bs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.154.219 with SMTP id p27mr5741262bkw.115.1263400282631; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:31:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:31:20 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: zhangyunfei , ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:31:31 -0000 Hi all, I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as he proposes. However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP will also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". I think it is clearer with this example. BR, Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation ---- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal To: "ext zhangyunfei" , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, (this time the finished mail) in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the design of PPSP will consider how it can be combined with the transport mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of PPSP will also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered media). This includes considering various media descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer protocol) after investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to incorporate their features in the protocol. This somehow mixes different issues: - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) - NAT traversal (included?) - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) - Media descriptions (included?) Most of the items are not exluded from the WG?s scope and should not be mentioned under this headline. My proposal would be: - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in scope of the WG. The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective working groups. What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the related needed extensions are known? My proposal: The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective working groups for evalution. Best Regards Christian Schmidt From albertojgc@gmail.com Wed Jan 13 09:14:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABBF33A69AB for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:14:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a3N7dPcxCY0Q for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8235C3A69F5 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so15839373bwz.29 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:13:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=Db+VYx3hLqZ0feBA0dw92xVvHBM4Wkxe+9e2s3cbokk=; b=kz5ZFswe5ou3K5xZLULwXll9zE41tL/YNsnzVpq/l1lokjbp7ZKV37QS/nmsHiGQQp nZQ0KR42lHbt9Vk13PKIyK31z6OFlx4SFVg4Q+FZ5/un2D25hbkn44537dvP6SmT3hC5 TsgXIUHuJj/r7eCNIFcz2XbtSfTT/2PRJDg20= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=c4z8l9AdP+G1JWJ4b1Kvh0HdmrYa0D+FRy6GEUgDDuyujnyZ6rtiBqG1mWLKx9vil/ CdNG/iH833ZbZKxIemgVOYAyOpu8+0JHoCDVRD7c04tTUd34/OXwLBEI2bR8hDgRKgM2 BWpH95cPJ5Nn+yUa6GjR3AgMPnRVMj76ODN+4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.148.71 with SMTP id o7mr3918613bkv.144.1263402836326; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:13:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:13:56 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: zhangyunfei , ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:14:06 -0000 Hi all, Regarding to peer lists, what about this suggestion to start discussion? - Tracker protocol peer list -- > deputy peer list : list of peers provided by the tracker. This list can be generated randomly or refined by means of ALTO servers / service. This list is provided from the tracker to new incoming peers (new peers joining a streaming channel and do not know any peer in the overlay). - Peer protocol peer list -- > member peer list : list of peers exchanged among peers which belong to a common streaming channel. This list includes locally known peers (which belong to the same overlay). BR, -- Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Wed Jan 13 23:33:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC49A3A693A for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:33:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.451, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uk5QskxVbvrG for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:33:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B493A6934 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0E7Xmfs007733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:33:48 +0100 Received: from demuexc022.nsn-intra.net (demuexc022.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.35]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0E7XmfI015589; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:33:48 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc022.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:33:48 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:33:46 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Thread-Index: AcqUc9FPOCLNpOnMQOumG6XdlNNuBAAddARg References: From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?ext_Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= , "zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2010 07:33:48.0185 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9101090:01CA94EB] Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:33:59 -0000 Hi, Nice collection, but is this detail of information really needed in the = charter? What is really missing in the current charter is a functional = description of tracker and peer. Why do we need a tracker at all? Why not just use a bootstrap peer for = this purpose. And after this, perhaps some highlevel requirements for tracker and peer = protocol.=20 Regards Christian =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 6:14 PM To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Hi all, Regarding to peer lists, what about this suggestion to start discussion? - Tracker protocol peer list -- > deputy peer list : list of peers provided by the tracker. This list can be generated randomly or refined by means of ALTO servers / service. This list is provided from the tracker to new incoming peers (new peers joining a streaming channel and do not know any peer in the overlay). - Peer protocol peer list -- > member peer list : list of peers exchanged among peers which belong to a common streaming channel. This list includes locally known peers (which belong to the same overlay). BR, --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Wed Jan 13 23:44:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD683A68AA for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:44:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1YQG6FgwY9kG for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49DA03A686E for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0E7ig54024954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:44:42 +0100 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0E7iddL001994; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:44:42 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:44:41 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:44:41 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Thread-Index: AcqUbfKc79RSXwUwQVazW49pjmYJEwAfwypg References: From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?ext_Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= , "zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2010 07:44:41.0792 (UTC) FILETIME=[6EA49400:01CA94ED] Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:44:53 -0000 Hi, Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC and SVC, if you use = them For the first time in a text. BR Christian Schmidt =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Hi all, I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as he proposes. However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP will also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". I think it is clearer with this example. BR, Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation ---- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal To: "ext zhangyunfei" , Message-ID: = Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Hi, (this time the finished mail) in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the design of PPSP will consider how it can be combined with the transport mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of PPSP will also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered media). This includes considering various media descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer protocol) after investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to incorporate their features in the protocol. This somehow mixes different issues: - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) - NAT traversal (included?) - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) - Media descriptions (included?) Most of the items are not exluded from the WG?s scope and should not be mentioned under this headline. My proposal would be: - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in scope of the WG. The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective working groups. What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the related needed extensions are known? My proposal: The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective working groups for evalution. Best Regards Christian Schmidt _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From albertojgc@gmail.com Thu Jan 14 00:10:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568323A693F for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:10:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WIRVZDRI4X3o for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f223.google.com (mail-bw0-f223.google.com [209.85.218.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F393A6964 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so16339302bwz.29 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:10:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=psmAQggJKDmfsR8PxMOPMH6tR7HjJc3OA01WCYWX3Vk=; b=TIzLP0vrrF6CdV22Y26e9gwvy8SC6oLTSVRFjWHW0BHMQvixANGQ8/o80j5n6BPJ3V XELu7D+K3I6ze2KaURNIsyaWcGWYLKbHsuFBs/25xxc9N3sAdDHq2rybrDFEG9XhukH6 rqL9Ya5ln4iYeFSq/m3pqicR6Uwm2W0trVA38= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=xEBKDxFJiZSrgVpLNm6BInB/DHnfJff6yS3U9MLsBsS0qRqrP+vixP9R0ksiF4MP1s Ua3v6I3OT+sWk5ismVGH+lqJKjxIERassyWjvbdWV81ADmLTzFwX5ozLcaFLxBGTkNlP UAF7f16fYUaVzQUvVUahvhZFy7RHAmI/i3WaI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.7.88 with SMTP id c24mr240399bkc.17.1263456631918; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:10:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:10:31 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:10:41 -0000 Yes, sorry. The full names are: MDC=3D Multiple Description Coding SVC=3D Scalable Video Coding BR, Alberto. Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation 2010/1/14 Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) : > Hi, > > Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC and SVC, if you use th= em > For the first time in a text. > > BR > Christian Schmidt > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of e= xt Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM > To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > > Hi all, > > I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as he proposes. > > However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP will also > consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered > media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". > I think it is clearer with this example. > > BR, > > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > > ---- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 > From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" > =A0 =A0 =A0 > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > To: "ext zhangyunfei" , > Message-ID: > =A0 =A0 =A0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > > Hi, > > (this time the finished mail) > > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. > > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the =A0design =A0of > PPSP =A0will =A0consider how it can be combined with the transport > mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of PPSP will > also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams > (layered =A0media). =A0This includes considering various media > descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer protocol) after > investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to > incorporate their features in the protocol. > > This somehow mixes different issues: > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) > - NAT traversal (included?) > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) > - Media descriptions (included?) > > Most of the items =A0are not exluded from the WG?s scope and should not > be mentioned under this headline. > My proposal would be: > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in > scope of the WG. > > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify > baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines > that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP > will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective > working groups. > > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the > related needed extensions are known? > My proposal: > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such > extensions and present to the respective working groups for evalution. > > Best Regards > Christian Schmidt > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Thu Jan 14 02:42:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B493A686A for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:42:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.162, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4u2DQjfkMCTa for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw5.ericsson.se (mailgw5.ericsson.se [193.180.251.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043A63A6830 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 02:42:34 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb24-b7bb6ae000001052-7a-4b4ef516edbc Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw5.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 28.FB.04178.615FE4B4; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.174]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:30 +0100 Received: from [131.160.37.44] ([131.160.37.44]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:30 +0100 Message-ID: <4B4EF516.2010401@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:42:30 +0200 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zhangyunfei Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2010 10:42:30.0096 (UTC) FILETIME=[45729500:01CA9506] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: [ppsp] Updated charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 10:42:37 -0000 Hi Yunfei, there have been interesting discussions about the charter. Could you please send an updated version of the charter including all new changes so that we can have a look at it? Once you post the updated charter, we can gather comments for, say, a week before sending it to Lars. Thanks, Gonzalo From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Jan 14 17:43:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C443A6803 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:43:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -93.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-93.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.281, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnVP7H7ggxjT for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:43:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CF03A67F3 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.212]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010011509545581-4254 ; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:54:55 +0800 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:40:29 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Gonzalo Camarillo" References: <4B4EF516.2010401@ericsson.com> Message-ID: <201001150940289531524@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-15 09:54:55, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-15 09:43:43, Serialize complete at 2010-01-15 09:43:43 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon102286862614_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:43:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon102286862614_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:05:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xi6u6QE9Nhl6 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6037F3A684D for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 19:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KW900IN8PWNVP@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:05:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KW900CL4PWNC9@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:05:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from s64081a ([10.164.12.24]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KW900ICKPWJTG@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:05:10 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:05:07 +0800 From: Song Haibin In-reply-to: To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela'?= , "'Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)'" Message-id: <006401ca958f$8b296bd0$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcqU8TAwG52emGnARsad803aH0g5QwAnbBqg Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 03:05:16 -0000 Sorry to chime in. But I don't understand what is the difference for = PPSP when you consider multistreams VS a single stream. Xie Xie, Haibin =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:11 PM > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >=20 > Yes, sorry. >=20 > The full names are: >=20 > MDC=3D Multiple Description Coding >=20 > SVC=3D Scalable Video Coding >=20 > BR, >=20 > Alberto. >=20 > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >=20 > 2010/1/14 Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)=20 > : > > Hi, > > > > Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC and SVC,=20 > if you use=20 > > them For the first time in a text. > > > > BR > > Christian Schmidt > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > > Of ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM > > To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > > Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > > > > Hi all, > > > > I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as=20 > he proposes. > > > > However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP=20 > will also=20 > > consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered > > media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". > > I think it is clearer with this example. > > > > BR, > > > > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > > > > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > > > > ---- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 > > From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" > > =A0 =A0 =A0 > > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > > To: "ext zhangyunfei" , > > Message-ID: > > =A0 =A0 =A0=20 > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi, > > > > (this time the finished mail) > > > > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. > > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. > > > > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: > > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. > > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the =A0 > design =A0of=20 > > PPSP =A0will =A0consider how it can be combined with the transport=20 > > mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of=20 > PPSP will=20 > > also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams=20 > > (layered =A0media). =A0This includes considering various media=20 > > descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer protocol) after=20 > > investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to=20 > > incorporate their features in the protocol. > > > > This somehow mixes different issues: > > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) > > - NAT traversal (included?) > > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) > > - Media descriptions (included?) > > > > Most of the items =A0are not exluded from the WG?s scope and=20 > should not=20 > > be mentioned under this headline. > > My proposal would be: > > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: > > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. > > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. > > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: > > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in=20 > > scope of the WG. > > > > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but=20 > requires close=20 > > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP,=20 > > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify=20 > > baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP=20 > determines=20 > > that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP=20 > > will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective=20 > > working groups. > > > > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know=20 > before the=20 > > related needed extensions are known? > > My proposal: > > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but=20 > requires close=20 > > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP,=20 > > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions=20 > to P2PSIP,=20 > > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such=20 > > extensions and present to the respective working groups for=20 > evalution. > > > > Best Regards > > Christian Schmidt > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 From guyingjie@huawei.com Thu Jan 14 20:03:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508A03A68BF for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:03:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.84 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.84 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dB6VvoJKapqF for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB183A6881 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KW900HOESKW9U@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:02:56 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KW9009XHSKW4Z@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:02:56 +0800 (CST) Received: from g00107907 ([10.164.12.64]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KW900GTXSKVNO@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:02:56 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:02:55 +0800 From: "Y.J. Gu" In-reply-to: <201001150940289531524@chinamobile.com> To: 'zhangyunfei' , 'Gonzalo Camarillo' Message-id: <002401ca9597$9e6267d0$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_K8BUz3g+co0+PThcSgFZzg)" Thread-index: AcqVhDMoynv7t6WBSSKqMh+Qd9b8AAAAKBtg Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 04:03:11 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_K8BUz3g+co0+PThcSgFZzg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, I have some comments on charter. 1. What kind of systems does ' P2P streaming systems' include? Does it include all of Live streaming, VoD and TSTV? I suggest we specify the indication. Currently, the description in the charter is too general. =20 2. Should Tracker Protocol and Peer Protocol possibly be designed as a single one? I remember that someone make this suggestion already. =20 3. Based on Alberto's proposal- Tracker protocol peer list -- > deputy peer list : list of peers provided by the tracker. This list can = be generated randomly or refined by means of ALTO servers / service. This = list is provided from the tracker to new incoming peers (new peers joining a streaming channel and do not know any peer in the overlay). First thing is that I don't think ALTO is the only means that can = be utilized to refine a peer list. So I think an 'e.g. ALTO ' maybe better. Another is the definition of the deputy list. Tracker could send = deputy list to a new peer who joins a channel for the first time and knows = nothing about peer list. It could also send deputy list to an 'old' peer who request for a chunk in a VoD streaming. The old peer knows some peers in = the overlay but still needs to request candidate peers from Tracker for some reasons, e.g. no chunk is stored on these local peers.=20 So I suggest to remove this sentence: =20 Tracker protocol peer list -- > deputy peer list : list of peers provided by the tracker. This list can be generated randomly or refined = by some means, e.g. ALTO service.=20 =20 4. - Peer protocol peer list -- > member peer list : list of = peers exchanged among peers which belong to a common streaming channel. This = list includes locally known peers (which belong to the same overlay). To me, channel means a live streaming channel or a TSTV channel, = not including such streaming as VoD. So I doubt that " a common streaming channel" is a little misleadding. So I suggest to modify the definition = as following. =20 - Peer protocol peer list -- > member peer list : list of = peers exchanged among peers which belong to a common streaming. This list = includes locally known peers (which belong to the same overlay). =20 5. the last sentence in para 2 saids "PPSP peers inform their status information to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with = other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers , and ask other PPSP peers for wanted = data. " Exchange means that you give me this and I give you that. So it's true = that peers exchange chunk avlailability. However, peers do not exchange that = with Tracker, peers just inform Tracker their chunk availabilility, and = Tracker give peerlist for their request. So I think this sentence should be = modified as "PPSP peers inform their status information and chunk availability to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk availability with other PPSP peers, = and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data." =20 6. Primary Task 4: peer protocol is also used to exchange peer list and some other peer property, e.g. bandwidth, busy or not, connections, etc. = So I suggest to modify as "4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP peer protocol. This protocol will define how PPSP peers exchange peer list = and advertise chunk availability. The protocol will also define the requests = and responses of chunks and peer property among PPSP peers. " =20 Regards Yingjie Gu =20 _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of zhangyunfei Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:40 AM To: Gonzalo Camarillo Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated charter proposal Yes,Gonzalo.Thanks for your reminding.I am collecting all the = suggestions to update a new version of the charter.Hope to finish and post it within a = few days. =20 BR Yunfei _____ =20 zhangyunfei 2010-01-15 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Gonzalo Camarillo =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2010-01-14 18:54:06 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Updated charter proposal =20 Hi Yunfei, =20 there have been interesting discussions about the charter. Could you =20 please send an updated version of the charter including all = new changes =20 so that we can have a look at it? Once you post the updated charter, we =20 can gather comments for, say, a week before sending it to = Lars. =20 Thanks, =20 Gonzalo =20 --Boundary_(ID_K8BUz3g+co0+PThcSgFZzg) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi = Yunfei,
I have some comments = on=20 charter.
1.  What kind of=20 systems does ' P2P streaming systems' include? Does it include all = of Live=20 streaming, VoD and TSTV? I suggest we specify the indication. Currently, = the=20 description in the charter is too general.
 
2.  Should = Tracker Protocol and=20 Peer Protocol possibly be designed as a single one? I remember that = someone make=20 this suggestion already.
 
3.  Based on Alberto's = proposal- =20 Tracker  protocol  peer  = list  --=20 >  deputy peer list : list of peers provided by the tracker. = This list=20 can be generated randomly or refined by means of ALTO servers / service. = This=20 list is provided from the tracker to new incoming peers (new peers = joining a=20 streaming channel and do not know any peer in the=20 overlay).
     First thing=20 is that I don't think ALTO is the only means that can be utilized to = refine=20 a peer list. So I think an 'e.g. ALTO ' maybe = better.
     Another is=20 the definition of the deputy list. Tracker could send deputy list = to a new=20 peer who joins a channel for the first time and knows nothing about peer = list.=20 It  could also send deputy list to an 'old' peer who request for a = chunk in=20 a VoD streaming. The old peer knows some peers in the overlay but = still=20 needs to request candidate peers from Tracker for some reasons, e.g. no = chunk is=20 stored on these local peers.
    So = I suggest to=20 remove this sentence:
 
 Tracker  protocol  peer  list  -- = >  deputy=20 peer list : list of peers provided by the tracker. This list can be = generated=20 randomly or refined by some means, e.g. ALTO service.=20
 
4.  -  Peer  protocol  peer  list  -- = > =20 member peer list : list of peers exchanged among peers which belong to a = common=20 streaming channel. This list includes locally known peers (which belong = to the=20 same overlay).
      To=20 me, channel means a live streaming channel or a TSTV channel, not=20 including such streaming as VoD. So I doubt that " a common = streaming=20 channel" is a little misleadding. So I suggest to modify the definition = as=20 following.
 
    = -  Peer  protocol  peer  = list  --=20 >  member peer list : list of peers exchanged among peers which = belong=20 to a common streaming. This list includes locally known peers (which = belong to=20 the same overlay).
 
5.  = the last=20 sentence in para 2 saids "PPSP peers inform their status information to PPSP = trackers, exchange their chunk=20 availability with other PPSP peers and/or PPSP trackers , and ask other PPSP peers for wanted data.=20 "
Exchange means that = you give me this=20 and I give you that. So it's true that peers exchange chunk = avlailability.=20 However, peers do not exchange that with Tracker, peers just inform = Tracker=20 their chunk availabilility, and Tracker give peerlist for their request. = So I=20 think this sentence should be modified as "PPSP=20 peers inform their status information and chunk = availability=20 to PPSP trackers, exchange their chunk=20 availability with other PPSP peers, and=20 ask other PPSP peers for wanted data."
 
6.  Primary Task 4: peer protocol is also used to exchange = peer list=20 and some other peer property, e.g. bandwidth, busy or not, connections, = etc. So=20 I suggest to modify as "4. A proposed standard defining the PPSP peer protocol. = This protocol will = define how=20 PPSP peers exchange peer list and advertise chunk availability. The=20 protocol will also define the requests and responses of chunks and peer=20 property among PPSP peers. "
 

Regards

Yingjie Gu

 

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = zhangyunfei
Sent:=20 Friday, January 15, 2010 9:40 AM
To: Gonzalo = Camarillo
Cc:=20 ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated charter=20 proposal

Yes,Gonzalo.Thanks = for your=20 reminding.I am collecting all the suggestions to update a new version = of the=20 charter.Hope to finish and post it within a few=20 days.
 
BR
Yunfei
zhangyunfei
2010-01-15
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Gonzalo=20 Camarillo
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2010-01-14 18:54:06
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20 zhangyunfei
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Updated charter=20 proposal
 
Hi  Yunfei,
 
there  have  been  interesting  discussions=20  about  the  charter.  Could  you =  
please  send  an  updated  version  of =  the=20  charter  including  all  new  changes =  
so  that  we  can  have  a  look =  at=20  it?  Once  you  post  the  updated=20  charter,  we  
can  gather  comments  for,  say,  a =  week=20  before  sending  it  to  Lars.
 
Thanks,
 
Gonzalo
 
--Boundary_(ID_K8BUz3g+co0+PThcSgFZzg)-- From albertojgc@gmail.com Sun Jan 17 14:40:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB0B3A691C for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:40:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.324 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.324 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iDU5KcoGJO4l for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com (mail-bw0-f219.google.com [209.85.218.219]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9A73A686E for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so1164740bwz.28 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:40:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=oYdpsK0kxmoYiokInk6huK6gZTwRMZ1CH9bLeaifyTk=; b=YxNGtTK4KROUeUsk4J+JhwrTuZzOjd+CXqNV1uDVl0p0dRX9dSwpG5Tbc8NFI0472y TCw+KkxSGLMnWCnvyAoxvnT1VkzJH322zPyz1eFHMoVrq/wqsn5QjtpnKjgBc9tEYX9C L2ixn1UU2n5S+UCLrbmv0GngjNNQfH1xpwuu0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=u6dE5fFY11V7GZhlTki6OIUTsP7ysK62CrG8V5xX9cYN3+WyGY7JmGlEHKK1uzQfre LV2+IqmT71T/72k/s3fVJ2Z4hSQUx9reoX0bP81sxypk83iYb/j9ca1QUQp6zuZ5xN9t 2FyuEv+VguhjQ61Sxvqt/4kzz1qI2YDB7vmcA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.36.197 with SMTP id u5mr650602bkd.119.1263768046647; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 14:40:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <006401ca958f$8b296bd0$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> References: <006401ca958f$8b296bd0$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:40:46 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: Song Haibin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 22:40:56 -0000 Hi Haibin, The intention to consider multistream in PPSP is to be able to signal different related streams into a "media session". A media session can be composed of different kinds of media, for instance audio and video or different video flows (e.g. layers when using Scalable video coding or descriptors using multiple description coding). Thanks to PPSP, the end-application can request the different flows it needs anytime from the overlay and compose them the way it wants. One important advantage of considering this capability is to provide robustness (against loss effect) and scalability (image resolution) to the application. For instance, in error prone environments, the application can decide to play some layers and discard other ones or to prioritize audio over video (or vice-versa). BR, Alberto. 2010/1/15 Song Haibin : > > Sorry to chime in. But I don't understand what is the difference for PPSP > when you consider multistreams VS a single stream. > > Xie Xie, > Haibin > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:11 PM >> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) >> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> Yes, sorry. >> >> The full names are: >> >> MDC=3D Multiple Description Coding >> >> SVC=3D Scalable Video Coding >> >> BR, >> >> Alberto. >> >> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> >> 2010/1/14 Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) >> : >> > Hi, >> > >> > Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC and SVC, >> if you use >> > them For the first time in a text. >> > >> > BR >> > Christian Schmidt >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf >> > Of ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM >> > To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org >> > Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as >> he proposes. >> > >> > However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP >> will also >> > consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams (layered >> > media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". >> > I think it is clearer with this example. >> > >> > BR, >> > >> > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> > >> > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> > >> > ---- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 >> > From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 >> > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> > To: "ext zhangyunfei" , >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > (this time the finished mail) >> > >> > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. >> > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. >> > >> > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the >> design =A0of >> > PPSP =A0will =A0consider how it can be combined with the transport >> > mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of >> PPSP will >> > also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams >> > (layered =A0media). =A0This includes considering various media >> > descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer protocol) after >> > investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SVC, MDC) to >> > incorporate their features in the protocol. >> > >> > This somehow mixes different issues: >> > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) >> > - NAT traversal (included?) >> > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) >> > - Media descriptions (included?) >> > >> > Most of the items =A0are not exluded from the WG?s scope and >> should not >> > be mentioned under this headline. >> > My proposal would be: >> > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. >> > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: >> > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in >> > scope of the WG. >> > >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but >> requires close >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify >> > baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP >> determines >> > that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP >> > will seek to define such extensions and present to the respective >> > working groups. >> > >> > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know >> before the >> > related needed extensions are known? >> > My proposal: >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but >> requires close >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions >> to P2PSIP, >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such >> > extensions and present to the respective working groups for >> evalution. >> > >> > Best Regards >> > Christian Schmidt >> > _______________________________________________ >> > ppsp mailing list >> > ppsp@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> > > > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela From melodysong@huawei.com Sun Jan 17 18:57:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E203A67FA for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:57:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.104 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.104 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.901, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZsHT6j9iiBqt for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901C53A67EC for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KWF0095E9JFS3@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:57:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KWF005YX9JF9T@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:57:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from s64081a ([10.164.12.24]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KWF006SD9JCOI@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:57:15 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 10:57:11 +0800 From: Song Haibin In-reply-to: To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?'Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela'?= Message-id: <00b001ca97e9$ee9bea10$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcqXxh47Z3jCAqQBRAWTCSgc2amHtQAIWS2w Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 02:57:31 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela [mailto:albertojgc@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:41 AM > To: Song Haibin > Cc: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >=20 > Hi Haibin, >=20 > The intention to consider multistream in PPSP is to be able=20 > to signal different related streams into a "media session". A=20 > media session can be composed of different kinds of media,=20 > for instance audio and video or different video flows (e.g.=20 > layers when using Scalable video coding or descriptors using=20 > multiple description coding). Thanks to PPSP, the=20 > end-application can request the different flows it needs=20 > anytime from the overlay and compose them the way it wants. >=20 > One important advantage of considering this capability is to=20 > provide robustness (against loss effect) and scalability=20 > (image resolution) to the application. For instance, in error=20 > prone environments, the application can decide to play some=20 > layers and discard other ones or to prioritize audio over=20 > video (or vice-versa). >=20 I understand. Do you think it is an encoding/decoding issue or the PPSP protocol issue?=20 Haibin > BR, >=20 > Alberto. >=20 >=20 >=20 > 2010/1/15 Song Haibin : > > > > Sorry to chime in. But I don't understand what is the=20 > difference for=20 > > PPSP when you consider multistreams VS a single stream. > > > > Xie Xie, > > Haibin > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]=20 > On Behalf=20 > >> Of Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:11 PM > >> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > >> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > >> > >> Yes, sorry. > >> > >> The full names are: > >> > >> MDC=3D Multiple Description Coding > >> > >> SVC=3D Scalable Video Coding > >> > >> BR, > >> > >> Alberto. > >> > >> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > >> > >> 2010/1/14 Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > >> : > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC and SVC, > >> if you use > >> > them For the first time in a text. > >> > > >> > BR > >> > Christian Schmidt > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] > >> On Behalf > >> > Of ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM > >> > To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > >> > Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as > >> he proposes. > >> > > >> > However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP > >> will also > >> > consider the scenario of transmission of multiple=20 > streams (layered > >> > media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". > >> > I think it is clearer with this example. > >> > > >> > BR, > >> > > >> > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > >> > > >> > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > >> > > >> > ---- > >> > > >> > Message: 1 > >> > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 > >> > From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" > >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 > >> > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > >> > To: "ext zhangyunfei" ,=20 > >> > > >> > Message-ID: > >> > > >> >=20 > > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > >> > > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > (this time the finished mail) > >> > > >> > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. > >> > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. > >> > > >> > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: > >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP=20 > peers, e.g. > >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the > >> design =A0of > >> > PPSP =A0will =A0consider how it can be combined with the = transport=20 > >> > mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of > >> PPSP will > >> > also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams=20 > >> > (layered =A0media). =A0This includes considering various media=20 > >> > descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer=20 > protocol) after=20 > >> > investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g.=20 > SVC, MDC) to=20 > >> > incorporate their features in the protocol. > >> > > >> > This somehow mixes different issues: > >> > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) > >> > - NAT traversal (included?) > >> > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) > >> > - Media descriptions (included?) > >> > > >> > Most of the items =A0are not exluded from the WG?s scope and > >> should not > >> > be mentioned under this headline. > >> > My proposal would be: > >> > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: > >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP=20 > peers, e.g. > >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. > >> > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: > >> > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered=20 > media) are in=20 > >> > scope of the WG. > >> > > >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but > >> requires close > >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP,=20 > >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it=20 > cannot modify=20 > >> > baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP > >> determines > >> > that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are=20 > needed, PPSP=20 > >> > will seek to define such extensions and present to the=20 > respective=20 > >> > working groups. > >> > > >> > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know > >> before the > >> > related needed extensions are known? > >> > My proposal: > >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but > >> requires close > >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP,=20 > >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions > >> to P2PSIP, > >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such=20 > >> > extensions and present to the respective working groups for > >> evalution. > >> > > >> > Best Regards > >> > Christian Schmidt > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > ppsp mailing list > >> > ppsp@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ppsp mailing list > >> ppsp@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > >> > > > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >=20 From albertojgc@gmail.com Sun Jan 17 21:40:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F023A6A3D for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:40:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1vEWqkbH+7QZ for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:40:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com (mail-bw0-f219.google.com [209.85.218.219]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93DF3A6A29 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:40:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so1325011bwz.28 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:40:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uFzOIZhxsF3x7J0RaaZ95orhRIdREviXrkvd7pZx0jo=; b=emyNM7GibbnnZ1IkEkgmmo75h3lWuqB+cgmWAWF7gr0ZZzPw4qPB1LbPYUfIosWe18 sVpe67vc3+xUy3cXMxa55aHw9xuySXfbS7VuPVVp8nFnzNwf9dTH6eW/TFKOkGcjlJTW QGkZiqnRBsrgpY00UcX0xuZ/p8GVRgzx8N/V0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WfiBtrDjJUGSFK/rBvKkJ7uqpiXjEOUrFgu2LzPSRSzIlFKt+SNonOchPmfyGHuCn0 rpiUpxWvSZ4ySGUcmrZcX2mpeVB2PDqK+/gIwmS2eBx5eKk8CRZ7kqws3Yvbq1ABUDCN C7FzNPZtAP4Z7mLUWtcYQBG8M+o0lt6EwJLbo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.36.197 with SMTP id u5mr794267bkd.119.1263793246568; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:40:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00b001ca97e9$ee9bea10$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> References: <00b001ca97e9$ee9bea10$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:40:46 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: Song Haibin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 05:40:55 -0000 I think it is an entirely PPSP issue as the application can decide then how to encode/decode. Alberto. 2010/1/18 Song Haibin : > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela [mailto:albertojgc@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:41 AM >> To: Song Haibin >> Cc: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> Hi Haibin, >> >> The intention to consider multistream in PPSP is to be able >> to signal different related streams into a "media session". A >> media session can be composed of different kinds of media, >> for instance audio and video or different video flows (e.g. >> layers when using Scalable video coding or descriptors using >> multiple description coding). Thanks to PPSP, the >> end-application can request the different flows it needs >> anytime from the overlay and compose them the way it wants. >> >> One important advantage of considering this capability is to >> provide robustness (against loss effect) and scalability >> (image resolution) to the application. For instance, in error >> prone environments, the application can decide to play some >> layers and discard other ones or to prioritize audio over >> video (or vice-versa). >> > > I understand. Do you think it is an encoding/decoding issue or the PPSP > protocol issue? > > Haibin > > >> BR, >> >> Alberto. >> >> >> >> 2010/1/15 Song Haibin : >> > >> > Sorry to chime in. But I don't understand what is the >> difference for >> > PPSP when you consider multistreams VS a single stream. >> > >> > Xie Xie, >> > Haibin >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] >> On Behalf >> >> Of Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:11 PM >> >> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) >> >> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org >> >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> >> >> Yes, sorry. >> >> >> >> The full names are: >> >> >> >> MDC=3D Multiple Description Coding >> >> >> >> SVC=3D Scalable Video Coding >> >> >> >> BR, >> >> >> >> Alberto. >> >> >> >> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> >> >> >> 2010/1/14 Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) >> >> : >> >> > Hi, >> >> > >> >> > Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC and SVC, >> >> if you use >> >> > them For the first time in a text. >> >> > >> >> > BR >> >> > Christian Schmidt >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] >> >> On Behalf >> >> > Of ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM >> >> > To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org >> >> > Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > >> >> > I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as >> >> he proposes. >> >> > >> >> > However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP >> >> will also >> >> > consider the scenario of transmission of multiple >> streams (layered >> >> > media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". >> >> > I think it is clearer with this example. >> >> > >> >> > BR, >> >> > >> >> > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> >> > >> >> > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> >> > >> >> > ---- >> >> > >> >> > Message: 1 >> >> > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 >> >> > From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" >> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 >> >> > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> > To: "ext zhangyunfei" , >> >> > >> >> > Message-ID: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" >> >> > >> >> > Hi, >> >> > >> >> > (this time the finished mail) >> >> > >> >> > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. >> >> > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. >> >> > >> >> > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: >> >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP >> peers, e.g. >> >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the >> >> design =A0of >> >> > PPSP =A0will =A0consider how it can be combined with the transport >> >> > mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of >> >> PPSP will >> >> > also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams >> >> > (layered =A0media). =A0This includes considering various media >> >> > descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer >> protocol) after >> >> > investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. >> SVC, MDC) to >> >> > incorporate their features in the protocol. >> >> > >> >> > This somehow mixes different issues: >> >> > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) >> >> > - NAT traversal (included?) >> >> > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) >> >> > - Media descriptions (included?) >> >> > >> >> > Most of the items =A0are not exluded from the WG?s scope and >> >> should not >> >> > be mentioned under this headline. >> >> > My proposal would be: >> >> > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: >> >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP >> peers, e.g. >> >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. >> >> > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: >> >> > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered >> media) are in >> >> > scope of the WG. >> >> > >> >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but >> >> requires close >> >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it >> cannot modify >> >> > baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP >> >> determines >> >> > that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are >> needed, PPSP >> >> > will seek to define such extensions and present to the >> respective >> >> > working groups. >> >> > >> >> > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know >> >> before the >> >> > related needed extensions are known? >> >> > My proposal: >> >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but >> >> requires close >> >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions >> >> to P2PSIP, >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such >> >> > extensions and present to the respective working groups for >> >> evalution. >> >> > >> >> > Best Regards >> >> > Christian Schmidt >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > ppsp mailing list >> >> > ppsp@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ppsp mailing list >> >> ppsp@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> > > > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela From longbwee@gmail.com Mon Jan 18 00:07:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410083A6A72 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:07:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3VoYCOG5q79k for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3174D3A6A77 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so136528qwd.31 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:07:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=/eybc4OD+6TazacLsPrgEbFp2nPiHC6BFNLCZzufoJs=; b=eEcD65LnQrPs+z4g26iHgWJYP0rCTbJRMRrLkii9/EajVAfaMCWThBxP4iBRCtJd3F 2zCfruDbXDfHnnuQtV9S6NsI4NFS6xz2vG25QdCilqZCJYN+OMDPwUEYpfhaCowoVPbX vnFm8zdj4pGcM1daviTIRfNqi3uVn1c9qO63w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=BFG5xmoXrPgyUyC3oJL1Dc9P0u3oVTmhWxiRcuIa6esJclw7xUe31k97ktduFsA/JG kKfwHsnm2UoVTsnFdUss9OTIRlIx2gLoOU6qDD0RkM9Nw62NlRUAbjGx85clgrOg9l0t GEr1ox4j6RGHMFqg9fwoDF7wM+fNlQbnelnqY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.78.143 with SMTP id l15mr4217761qak.167.1263802052928; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:07:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00b001ca97e9$ee9bea10$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:07:32 +0800 Message-ID: From: Bin Long To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f9728b66e6672047d6bd8d3 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 08:07:41 -0000 --00c09f9728b66e6672047d6bd8d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable However, I think the issue is more application-specific. Following through your disscusses, I'm still a liitled missed as to the scope of PPSP protocol, should it be application scenarios- agnostic or should it cover all details of streaming system? If you cosider MDC and SVC, you may need include MBR (Multiple Bit Rate)streaming too. 2010/1/18 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > I think it is an entirely PPSP issue as the application can decide > then how to encode/decode. > > Alberto. > > 2010/1/18 Song Haibin : > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela [mailto:albertojgc@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:41 AM > >> To: Song Haibin > >> Cc: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > >> > >> Hi Haibin, > >> > >> The intention to consider multistream in PPSP is to be able > >> to signal different related streams into a "media session". A > >> media session can be composed of different kinds of media, > >> for instance audio and video or different video flows (e.g. > >> layers when using Scalable video coding or descriptors using > >> multiple description coding). Thanks to PPSP, the > >> end-application can request the different flows it needs > >> anytime from the overlay and compose them the way it wants. > >> > >> One important advantage of considering this capability is to > >> provide robustness (against loss effect) and scalability > >> (image resolution) to the application. For instance, in error > >> prone environments, the application can decide to play some > >> layers and discard other ones or to prioritize audio over > >> video (or vice-versa). > >> > > > > I understand. Do you think it is an encoding/decoding issue or the PPSP > > protocol issue? > > > > Haibin > > > > > >> BR, > >> > >> Alberto. > >> > >> > >> > >> 2010/1/15 Song Haibin : > >> > > >> > Sorry to chime in. But I don't understand what is the > >> difference for > >> > PPSP when you consider multistreams VS a single stream. > >> > > >> > Xie Xie, > >> > Haibin > >> > > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] > >> On Behalf > >> >> Of Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:11 PM > >> >> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > >> >> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > >> >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > >> >> > >> >> Yes, sorry. > >> >> > >> >> The full names are: > >> >> > >> >> MDC=3D Multiple Description Coding > >> >> > >> >> SVC=3D Scalable Video Coding > >> >> > >> >> BR, > >> >> > >> >> Alberto. > >> >> > >> >> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > >> >> > >> >> 2010/1/14 Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > >> >> : > >> >> > Hi, > >> >> > > >> >> > Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC and SVC, > >> >> if you use > >> >> > them For the first time in a text. > >> >> > > >> >> > BR > >> >> > Christian Schmidt > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] > >> >> On Behalf > >> >> > Of ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela > >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM > >> >> > To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > >> >> > Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi all, > >> >> > > >> >> > I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as > >> >> he proposes. > >> >> > > >> >> > However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP > >> >> will also > >> >> > consider the scenario of transmission of multiple > >> streams (layered > >> >> > media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". > >> >> > I think it is clearer with this example. > >> >> > > >> >> > BR, > >> >> > > >> >> > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > >> >> > > >> >> > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation > >> >> > > >> >> > ---- > >> >> > > >> >> > Message: 1 > >> >> > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 > >> >> > From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" > >> >> > > >> >> > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > >> >> > To: "ext zhangyunfei" , > >> >> > > >> >> > Message-ID: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi, > >> >> > > >> >> > (this time the finished mail) > >> >> > > >> >> > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. > >> >> > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. > >> >> > > >> >> > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: > >> >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP > >> peers, e.g. > >> >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the > >> >> design of > >> >> > PPSP will consider how it can be combined with the transport > >> >> > mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of > >> >> PPSP will > >> >> > also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams > >> >> > (layered media). This includes considering various media > >> >> > descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer > >> protocol) after > >> >> > investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. > >> SVC, MDC) to > >> >> > incorporate their features in the protocol. > >> >> > > >> >> > This somehow mixes different issues: > >> >> > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) > >> >> > - NAT traversal (included?) > >> >> > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) > >> >> > - Media descriptions (included?) > >> >> > > >> >> > Most of the items are not exluded from the WG?s scope and > >> >> should not > >> >> > be mentioned under this headline. > >> >> > My proposal would be: > >> >> > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: > >> >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP > >> peers, e.g. > >> >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. > >> >> > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: > >> >> > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered > >> media) are in > >> >> > scope of the WG. > >> >> > > >> >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but > >> >> requires close > >> >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, > >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it > >> cannot modify > >> >> > baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP > >> >> determines > >> >> > that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are > >> needed, PPSP > >> >> > will seek to define such extensions and present to the > >> respective > >> >> > working groups. > >> >> > > >> >> > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know > >> >> before the > >> >> > related needed extensions are known? > >> >> > My proposal: > >> >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but > >> >> requires close > >> >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, > >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions > >> >> to P2PSIP, > >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such > >> >> > extensions and present to the respective working groups for > >> >> evalution. > >> >> > > >> >> > Best Regards > >> >> > Christian Schmidt > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > ppsp mailing list > >> >> > ppsp@ietf.org > >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> ppsp mailing list > >> >> ppsp@ietf.org > >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --=20 Best Regards, Bin Long --00c09f9728b66e6672047d6bd8d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable However, I think the issue is more application-specific. Following through= =A0 your
disscusses, I'm still a liitled missed as to the scope of P= PSP protocol, should it be application scenarios- agnostic or should it cov= er all details of streaming system? If you cosider MDC and SVC, you may nee= d include MBR (Multiple Bit Rate)streaming too.
=A0
2010/1/18 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela = <albertojgc@gm= ail.com>
I think it is an entirely PPSP issue as the application can decide
then how to encode/decode.

Alberto.

2010/1/18 Song Haibin <melodyso= ng@huawei.com>:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela [mailto:albertojgc@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:41 AM
>> To: Song Haibin
>> Cc: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal
>>
>> Hi Haibin,
>>
>> The intention to consider multistream in PPSP is to be able
>> to signal different related streams into a "media session&quo= t;. A
>> media session can be composed of different kinds of media,
>> for instance audio and video or different video flows (e.g.
>> layers when using Scalable video coding or descriptors using
>> multiple description coding). Thanks to PPSP, the
>> end-application can request the different flows it needs
>> anytime from the overlay and compose them the way it wants.
>>
>> One important advantage of considering this capability is to
>> provide robustness (against loss effect) and scalability
>> (image resolution) to the application. For instance, in error
>> prone environments, the application can decide to play some
>> layers and discard other ones or to prioritize audio over
>> video (or vice-versa).
>>
>
> I understand. Do you think it is an encoding/decoding issue or the PPS= P
> protocol issue?
>
> Haibin
>
>
>> BR,
>>
>> Alberto.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2010/1/15 Song Haibin <melodysong@huawei.com>:
>> >
>> > Sorry to chime in. But I don't understand what is the
>> difference for
>> > PPSP when you consider multistreams VS a single stream.
>> >
>> > Xie Xie,
>> > Haibin
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: ppsp-bounc= es@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounc= es@ietf.org]
>> On Behalf
>> >> Of Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela
>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:11 PM
>> >> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> >> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org >> >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal
>> >>
>> >> Yes, sorry.
>> >>
>> >> The full names are:
>> >>
>> >> MDC=3D Multiple Description Coding
>> >>
>> >> SVC=3D Scalable Video Coding
>> >>
>> >> BR,
>> >>
>> >> Alberto.
>> >>
>> >> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> >>
>> >> 2010/1/14 Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)
>> >> <christ= ian.1.schmidt@nsn.com>:
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC a= nd SVC,
>> >> if you use
>> >> > them For the first time in a text.
>> >> >
>> >> > BR
>> >> > Christian Schmidt
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: ppsp-= bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-= bounces@ietf.org]
>> >> On Behalf
>> >> > Of ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM
>> >> > To: zhangyunfei; pp= sp@ietf.org
>> >> > Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi all,
>> >> >
>> >> > I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragr= aphs as
>> >> he proposes.
>> >> >
>> >> > However, I would specify the following: "the de= sign of PPSP
>> >> will also
>> >> > consider the scenario of transmission of multiple >> streams (layered
>> >> > media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC&qu= ot;.
>> >> > I think it is clearer with this example.
>> >> >
>> >> > BR,
>> >> >
>> >> > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela
>> >> >
>> >> > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundat= ion
>> >> >
>> >> > ----
>> >> >
>> >> > Message: 1
>> >> > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100
>> >> > From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)&= quot;
>> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 <christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com>
>> >> > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> > To: "ext zhangyunfei" <zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com>,
>> >> > <ppsp@ietf.org>
>> >> > Message-ID:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> <B846208195B11F4EA16E16BE9DC8A9CC02768E1F@DEMUEXC013.= nsn-intra.net>
>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1= "
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > (this time the finished mail)
>> >> >
>> >> > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape.<= br> >> >> > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible.<= br> >> >> >
>> >> > The following topics are excluded from this WG's= scope:
>> >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among = PPSP
>> peers, e.g.
>> >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However= the
>> >> design =A0of
>> >> > PPSP =A0will =A0consider how it can be combined with= the transport
>> >> > mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The des= ign of
>> >> PPSP will
>> >> > also consider the scenario of transmission of multip= le streams
>> >> > (layered =A0media). =A0This includes considering var= ious media
>> >> > descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer >> protocol) after
>> >> > investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g= .
>> SVC, MDC) to
>> >> > incorporate their features in the protocol.
>> >> >
>> >> > This somehow mixes different issues:
>> >> > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included)
>> >> > - NAT traversal (included?)
>> >> > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (inc= luded?)
>> >> > - Media descriptions (included?)
>> >> >
>> >> > Most of the items =A0are not exluded from the WG?s s= cope and
>> >> should not
>> >> > be mentioned under this headline.
>> >> > My proposal would be:
>> >> > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to:
>> >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among = PPSP
>> peers, e.g.
>> >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc.
>> >> > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary task= s:
>> >> > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layere= d
>> media) are in
>> >> > scope of the WG.
>> >> >
>> >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, b= ut
>> >> requires close
>> >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particul= arly P2PSIP,
>> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it<= br> >> cannot modify
>> >> > baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. = If PPSP
>> >> determines
>> >> > that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC ar= e
>> needed, PPSP
>> >> > will seek to define such extensions and present to t= he
>> respective
>> >> > working groups.
>> >> >
>> >> > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can = we know
>> >> before the
>> >> > related needed extensions are known?
>> >> > My proposal:
>> >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, b= ut
>> >> requires close
>> >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particul= arly P2PSIP,
>> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that exte= nsions
>> >> to P2PSIP,
>> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to= define such
>> >> > extensions and present to the respective working gro= ups for
>> >> evalution.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best Regards
>> >> > Christian Schmidt
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > ppsp mailing list
>> >> > ppsp@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> ppsp mailing list
>> >> ppsp@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela
>>
>
>
>



--
Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela
_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp



--
Best Regard= s,
Bin Long
--00c09f9728b66e6672047d6bd8d3-- From albertojgc@gmail.com Mon Jan 18 04:34:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB1D3A659B for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 04:34:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tfHE8dci0yyu for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 04:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com (mail-bw0-f219.google.com [209.85.218.219]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B302B3A68B0 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 04:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so1575369bwz.28 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 04:34:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=as18em50LcjfoBi5I9lQBVrJoxS0+kI8Xmd6pTw9nEQ=; b=A5PArMDGSpx7LlHutPZLhsU1g+AV/wAJAfaZUyQG/wanRcSYzHjNdi/piYJE0UBYHR 4ivHSzntTt/qeFTsTGWYeRvM9xUGOjPgiRaz9oE8UrMIl8qeJXJUhnOdhKYuDEcshXnZ XlH69JwEvp8jC6D7NNdsPT2IaQ5Bzz+DJ7U5E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iw32emIblv6O+IPooxUysDbiprU5pjZVSsVVluNGa+qaDcNE1IByQKXeLOg4jUCKDD Ue2tVFVmUbN4wgkaRcsT5dPXl7CxbHT6QDgdxL2wUtsjCeDVeVhK4IFE3Dnx7nZFSz/k zGUGkm7cmVDIcorpYs5dVptbiYoYUYiLH+Ykw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.156.212 with SMTP id y20mr3314843bkw.126.1263818045083; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 04:34:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00b001ca97e9$ee9bea10$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:34:05 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: Bin Long Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:34:14 -0000 I think this is not a specific application issue. It is just a capability provided to the protocol to support robustness, scalability or heterogeneous devices. Then, the application can decide which kind of media to distribute, how to encode and decode, etc. BR, Alberto. 2010/1/18 Bin Long : > However, I think the issue is more application-specific. Following throug= h > your > disscusses, I'm still a liitled missed as to the scope of PPSP protocol, > should it be application scenarios- agnostic or should it cover all detai= ls > of streaming system? If you cosider MDC and SVC, you may need include MBR > (Multiple Bit Rate)streaming too. > > 2010/1/18 Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> >> I think it is an entirely PPSP issue as the application can decide >> then how to encode/decode. >> >> Alberto. >> >> 2010/1/18 Song Haibin : >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela [mailto:albertojgc@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:41 AM >> >> To: Song Haibin >> >> Cc: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org >> >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> >> >> Hi Haibin, >> >> >> >> The intention to consider multistream in PPSP is to be able >> >> to signal different related streams into a "media session". A >> >> media session can be composed of different kinds of media, >> >> for instance audio and video or different video flows (e.g. >> >> layers when using Scalable video coding or descriptors using >> >> multiple description coding). Thanks to PPSP, the >> >> end-application can request the different flows it needs >> >> anytime from the overlay and compose them the way it wants. >> >> >> >> One important advantage of considering this capability is to >> >> provide robustness (against loss effect) and scalability >> >> (image resolution) to the application. For instance, in error >> >> prone environments, the application can decide to play some >> >> layers and discard other ones or to prioritize audio over >> >> video (or vice-versa). >> >> >> > >> > I understand. Do you think it is an encoding/decoding issue or the PPS= P >> > protocol issue? >> > >> > Haibin >> > >> > >> >> BR, >> >> >> >> Alberto. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2010/1/15 Song Haibin : >> >> > >> >> > Sorry to chime in. But I don't understand what is the >> >> difference for >> >> > PPSP when you consider multistreams VS a single stream. >> >> > >> >> > Xie Xie, >> >> > Haibin >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] >> >> On Behalf >> >> >> Of Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:11 PM >> >> >> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) >> >> >> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org >> >> >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, sorry. >> >> >> >> >> >> The full names are: >> >> >> >> >> >> MDC=3D Multiple Description Coding >> >> >> >> >> >> SVC=3D Scalable Video Coding >> >> >> >> >> >> BR, >> >> >> >> >> >> Alberto. >> >> >> >> >> >> Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> >> >> >> >> >> 2010/1/14 Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) >> >> >> : >> >> >> > Hi, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Good idea, but please include the full name of MDC and SVC, >> >> >> if you use >> >> >> > them For the first time in a text. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > BR >> >> >> > Christian Schmidt >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] >> >> >> On Behalf >> >> >> > Of ext Alberto Jos=E9 Gonz=E1lez Cela >> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:31 PM >> >> >> > To: zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org >> >> >> > Subject: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Hi all, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I agree with Christian about summarizing both paragraphs as >> >> >> he proposes. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > However, I would specify the following: "the design of PPSP >> >> >> will also >> >> >> > consider the scenario of transmission of multiple >> >> streams (layered >> >> >> > media) generated by techniques such as MDC or SVC". >> >> >> > I think it is clearer with this example. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > BR, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya / i2CAT Foundation >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ---- >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Message: 1 >> >> >> > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:47:09 +0100 >> >> >> > From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" >> >> >> > =A0 =A0 =A0 >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> >> > To: "ext zhangyunfei" , >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Message-ID: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Hi, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > (this time the finished mail) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. >> >> >> > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: >> >> >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP >> >> peers, e.g. >> >> >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the >> >> >> design =A0of >> >> >> > PPSP =A0will =A0consider how it can be combined with the transpo= rt >> >> >> > mechanisms, including NAT traversal problem. The design of >> >> >> PPSP will >> >> >> > also consider the scenario of transmission of multiple streams >> >> >> > (layered =A0media). =A0This includes considering various media >> >> >> > descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in peer >> >> protocol) after >> >> >> > investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. >> >> SVC, MDC) to >> >> >> > incorporate their features in the protocol. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > This somehow mixes different issues: >> >> >> > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) >> >> >> > - NAT traversal (included?) >> >> >> > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) >> >> >> > - Media descriptions (included?) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Most of the items =A0are not exluded from the WG?s scope and >> >> >> should not >> >> >> > be mentioned under this headline. >> >> >> > My proposal would be: >> >> >> > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: >> >> >> > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP >> >> peers, e.g. >> >> >> > using TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. >> >> >> > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: >> >> >> > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered >> >> media) are in >> >> >> > scope of the WG. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but >> >> >> requires close >> >> >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >> >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it >> >> cannot modify >> >> >> > baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP >> >> >> determines >> >> >> > that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are >> >> needed, PPSP >> >> >> > will seek to define such extensions and present to the >> >> respective >> >> >> > working groups. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know >> >> >> before the >> >> >> > related needed extensions are known? >> >> >> > My proposal: >> >> >> > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but >> >> >> requires close >> >> >> > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >> >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions >> >> >> to P2PSIP, >> >> >> > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such >> >> >> > extensions and present to the respective working groups for >> >> >> evalution. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Best Regards >> >> >> > Christian Schmidt >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > ppsp mailing list >> >> >> > ppsp@ietf.org >> >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> ppsp mailing list >> >> >> ppsp@ietf.org >> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > -- > Best Regards, > Bin Long > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Mon Jan 18 06:10:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96303A6804 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:10:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VJIXb2XV83Wa for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C553A68AB for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0IEAJUj005058 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:10:19 +0100 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0IEAFCL032396; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:10:19 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:10:18 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:10:17 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8b2769931001130451o2554a99cx881ab6c34474c61a@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Thread-Index: AcqUTzEFmHtSkx5ETO2NLXJs35DX3QD98aqA References: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> <8b2769931001130451o2554a99cx881ab6c34474c61a@mail.gmail.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext David A. Bryan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jan 2010 14:10:18.0322 (UTC) FILETIME=[F6BDE320:01CA9847] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:10:43 -0000 Hi David, Your modification looks better then the orginal text. Question:=20 Is the goal of the sentence, that e.g. requirements from PPSP should not Be able to request changes in reload-base specification? These requirements would have to be documented in a separate document? Or what should this sentence avoid? Regards Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: davidbryan@gmail.com [mailto:davidbryan@gmail.com] On Behalf Of = ext David A. Bryan Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:52 PM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) Cc: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal So looking at the change suggested below, essentially you are looking to remove the sentence: "The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors." Overall, this section of the charter is very much like (even borrowed from) the P2PSIP charter, where the similar line basically says the P2PSIP group, in itself, is not authorized to modify SIP. I think there is a similar intended here, so I wouldn't support removing the sentence entirely as you suggest, but I think different wording is might be needed (i.e., using the work "assume" almost implies that the protocols won't need to be changed, when he right wording should be more about PPSP not being the place to modify them if they need it. How about: "The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. While the PPSP WG cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT or MMUSIC behaviors, if PPSP determines that extensions or modifications are required, PPSP may seek to define such extensions and present them to the respective working groups." Thoughts? David On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > Hi, > > (this time the finished mail) > > in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. > Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. > > The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. = using > TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the=A0 design=A0 of=A0 = PPSP=A0 will > consider how it can be combined with the transport mechanisms, = including NAT > traversal problem. The design of PPSP will also consider the scenario = of > transmission=A0of=A0multiple streams=A0 (layered=A0 media).=A0 This = includes > considering various media descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in = peer > protocol) after investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. = SVC, > MDC) to incorporate their features in the protocol. > > This somehow mixes different issues: > - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) > - NAT traversal (included?) > - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) > - Media descriptions (included?) > > Most of the items=A0 are not exluded from the WG=B4s scope and should = not be > mentioned under this headline. > My proposal would be: > - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: > 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. = using > TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. > - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: > NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in = scope of > the WG. > > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT > and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, = ALTO, > LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to = P2PSIP, > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such = extensions > and present to the respective working groups. > > What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the > related=A0needed extensions are known? > My proposal: > The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT > and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT = and > MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and = present to > the respective working groups for evalution. > > Best Regards > Christian Schmidt > > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > From davidbryan@gmail.com Mon Jan 18 06:27:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649483A6859 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:27:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.377 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.377 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aN39chrJiIM5 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yx0-f192.google.com (mail-yx0-f192.google.com [209.85.210.192]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A10E3A68AB for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by yxe30 with SMTP id 30so2745135yxe.29 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:27:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=e8EIDExIYvAR4eiJT0V3dm3G4KpVJ/cc240QbYjRlGY=; b=DCfLjICPZO2C+22XNXr83bJldXS4rNiGIME5a2ZsQxqNdqY/ETEjL9eeaLvyik0QGu z1nd7uMb/LtXdXbavIZfTYPKUaoPnfOXriulBnAYpAwucZxE8vFoLKk2SjnnbCDPNgn+ tJ82piDyGon/vHDFS7OWYZFVmy8t47POQI/Q4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=bnJJ/2NWRWPW8OwfS9Zds7NPcTZ6tZP1klc5qDDwxrCWS90poJt/d5AchC8z0DiOt4 4UMZv9H3gHALtTN+g9/TRk/JEOcf1JlTJtwQFnD5Jtw38zmRgLbnbxgonWGVqpFkh3PX akIbGf4Z8kofg0mXy08f3wy2oGN9dlBm0drc8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: davidbryan@gmail.com Received: by 10.150.7.6 with SMTP id 6mr5554609ybg.261.1263824820786; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:27:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> <8b2769931001130451o2554a99cx881ab6c34474c61a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:27:00 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 864b609a21cf1033 Message-ID: <8b2769931001180627h60b41b2l8c387df5fa97045e@mail.gmail.com> From: "David A. Bryan" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:27:09 -0000 Hi Christian, I don't think the goal is that PPSP should not be able to request changes at all -- in fact, I hope some interesting uses, which could mean changes/extensions do come out of PPSP. In the case of the P2PSIP charter, the language was to make it clear at charter time that P2PSIP wasn't going to be directly changing SIP itself, but would go through other groups. In PPSP, I think it should be to make it clear that PPSP work won't be able to directly change P2PSIP/ALTO etc. specifications, but would push any suggested changes needed to the respective group. Perhaps it is redundant (IETF rules tend to imply a group can't usually modify another group's documents), but as chair, it has proved to be very useful text from a scoping perspective in P2PSIP. I tried to capture that in my rewrite, but if I didn't quite get it right, we should certainly try changing the wording a bit more. David On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > Hi David, > > Your modification looks better then the orginal text. > Question: > Is the goal of the sentence, that e.g. requirements from PPSP should not > Be able to request changes in reload-base specification? > These requirements would have to be documented in a separate document? > Or what should this sentence avoid? > > Regards > Christian > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: davidbryan@gmail.com [mailto:davidbryan@gmail.com] On Behalf Of ext= David A. Bryan > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:52 PM > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > Cc: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > > So looking at the change suggested below, essentially you are looking > to remove the sentence: > > "The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, > LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors." > > Overall, this section of the charter is very much like (even borrowed > from) the P2PSIP charter, where the similar line basically says the > P2PSIP group, in itself, is not authorized to modify SIP. I think > there is a similar intended here, so I wouldn't support removing the > sentence entirely as you suggest, but I think different wording is > might be needed (i.e., using the work "assume" almost implies that the > protocols won't need to be changed, when he right wording should be > more about PPSP not being the place to modify them if they need it. > > How about: > > "The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. While the PPSP WG cannot modify baseline > P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT or MMUSIC behaviors, if PPSP determines that > extensions or modifications are required, PPSP may seek to define such > extensions and present them to the respective working groups." > > Thoughts? > > David > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - > DE/Munich) wrote: >> Hi, >> >> (this time the finished mail) >> >> in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. >> Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. >> >> The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: >> 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. usi= ng >> TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the=A0 design=A0 of=A0 PP= SP=A0 will >> consider how it can be combined with the transport mechanisms, including= NAT >> traversal problem. The design of PPSP will also consider the scenario of >> transmission=A0of=A0multiple streams=A0 (layered=A0 media).=A0 This incl= udes >> considering various media descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in p= eer >> protocol) after investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. SV= C, >> MDC) to incorporate their features in the protocol. >> >> This somehow mixes different issues: >> - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) >> - NAT traversal (included?) >> - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) >> - Media descriptions (included?) >> >> Most of the items=A0 are not exluded from the WG=B4s scope and should no= t be >> mentioned under this headline. >> My proposal would be: >> - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: >> 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. usi= ng >> TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. >> - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: >> NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in scop= e of >> the WG. >> >> The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close >> participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LE= DBAT >> and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, A= LTO, >> LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSI= P, >> ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensi= ons >> and present to the respective working groups. >> >> What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the >> related=A0needed extensions are known? >> My proposal: >> The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close >> participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, ALTO,LE= DBAT >> and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT an= d >> MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present = to >> the respective working groups for evalution. >> >> Best Regards >> Christian Schmidt >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> > From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Mon Jan 18 06:33:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A883A67E3 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:33:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uJBekZzmyCOD for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5061B3A6804 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 06:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0IEX0nO000351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:33:00 +0100 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o0IEWxhl024166; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:33:00 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:33:00 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:32:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8b2769931001180627h60b41b2l8c387df5fa97045e@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Thread-Index: AcqYSk4THasF0+7HQzKWiW7mWD2M/AAAHctQ References: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> <8b2769931001130451o2554a99cx881ab6c34474c61a@mail.gmail.com> <8b2769931001180627h60b41b2l8c387df5fa97045e@mail.gmail.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext David A. Bryan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jan 2010 14:33:00.0164 (UTC) FILETIME=[22767C40:01CA984B] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:33:14 -0000 Hi David, Thank you for the explanation, now it is clear to me and I would vote to Use your text proposal for the charter. Regards Christian -----Original Message----- From: davidbryan@gmail.com [mailto:davidbryan@gmail.com] On Behalf Of = ext David A. Bryan Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 3:27 PM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) Cc: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal Hi Christian, I don't think the goal is that PPSP should not be able to request changes at all -- in fact, I hope some interesting uses, which could mean changes/extensions do come out of PPSP. In the case of the P2PSIP charter, the language was to make it clear at charter time that P2PSIP wasn't going to be directly changing SIP itself, but would go through other groups. In PPSP, I think it should be to make it clear that PPSP work won't be able to directly change P2PSIP/ALTO etc. specifications, but would push any suggested changes needed to the respective group. Perhaps it is redundant (IETF rules tend to imply a group can't usually modify another group's documents), but as chair, it has proved to be very useful text from a scoping perspective in P2PSIP. I tried to capture that in my rewrite, but if I didn't quite get it right, we should certainly try changing the wording a bit more. David On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > Hi David, > > Your modification looks better then the orginal text. > Question: > Is the goal of the sentence, that e.g. requirements from PPSP should = not > Be able to request changes in reload-base specification? > These requirements would have to be documented in a separate document? > Or what should this sentence avoid? > > Regards > Christian > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: davidbryan@gmail.com [mailto:davidbryan@gmail.com] On Behalf Of = ext David A. Bryan > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:52 PM > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > Cc: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > > So looking at the change suggested below, essentially you are looking > to remove the sentence: > > "The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, > LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors." > > Overall, this section of the charter is very much like (even borrowed > from) the P2PSIP charter, where the similar line basically says the > P2PSIP group, in itself, is not authorized to modify SIP. I think > there is a similar intended here, so I wouldn't support removing the > sentence entirely as you suggest, but I think different wording is > might be needed (i.e., using the work "assume" almost implies that the > protocols won't need to be changed, when he right wording should be > more about PPSP not being the place to modify them if they need it. > > How about: > > "The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close > participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, > ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. While the PPSP WG cannot modify baseline > P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT or MMUSIC behaviors, if PPSP determines that > extensions or modifications are required, PPSP may seek to define such > extensions and present them to the respective working groups." > > Thoughts? > > David > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - > DE/Munich) wrote: >> Hi, >> >> (this time the finished mail) >> >> in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. >> Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. >> >> The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: >> 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. = using >> TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the=A0 design=A0 of=A0 = PPSP=A0 will >> consider how it can be combined with the transport mechanisms, = including NAT >> traversal problem. The design of PPSP will also consider the scenario = of >> transmission=A0of=A0multiple streams=A0 (layered=A0 media).=A0 This = includes >> considering various media descriptions (e.g. data chunk description = in peer >> protocol) after investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. = SVC, >> MDC) to incorporate their features in the protocol. >> >> This somehow mixes different issues: >> - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) >> - NAT traversal (included?) >> - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) >> - Media descriptions (included?) >> >> Most of the items=A0 are not exluded from the WG=B4s scope and should = not be >> mentioned under this headline. >> My proposal would be: >> - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: >> 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. = using >> TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. >> - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: >> NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in = scope of >> the WG. >> >> The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close >> participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT >> and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline = P2PSIP, ALTO, >> LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to = P2PSIP, >> ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such = extensions >> and present to the respective working groups. >> >> What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before = the >> related=A0needed extensions are known? >> My proposal: >> The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close >> participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, = ALTO,LEDBAT >> and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT = and >> MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and = present to >> the respective working groups for evalution. >> >> Best Regards >> Christian Schmidt >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> >> > From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com Mon Jan 18 07:01:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A849B3A6824 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:01:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j4dPuJ6ZCSwb for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com (mail-bw0-f219.google.com [209.85.218.219]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA193A68C6 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so1718026bwz.28 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:01:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fgc4Nj60i2tU/G6PPjkVKe3Wini2FZBM5nbixTIOSIg=; b=d0X8gcn5wc5ozS6wf+ehExWwQbt0JShQjw2BPD77QPRUpx0XPNsofEjChdfZb+5pGY M2JDKtH0yTeWrHSjN5f2MqMsrjM4C9rceHwrWkNhG9mrPF2zP2eZeo1D0To1WGpY1v4I YfQyNyrXhNWdGujlcAo5XcNH4V+et9m5nxIt0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QkqjBo4faPUjl2q1P1zbae3mde7NSameUi45/am0Qp0bdFsL2Vh/qFgrtQ/Ntcidg8 kD1M0DSd4GC/m5WAmQLFgcnu0ZaHs5/L17jwlQLZmJKwDmfGr1ZX08pewCIjUL7dWeBB aZfGmBJ5u+JEHkg72fYWnlbuo0X+tNxSgAxMw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.6.9 with SMTP id 9mr3549835bkx.1.1263826906586; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:01:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> <8b2769931001130451o2554a99cx881ab6c34474c61a@mail.gmail.com> <8b2769931001180627h60b41b2l8c387df5fa97045e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:01:46 +0100 Message-ID: <618e24241001180701t4c1b3295j7def2ea6ed711abc@mail.gmail.com> From: Victor Pascual Avila To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:01:58 -0000 +1 -Victor On 1/18/10, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > Hi David, > > Thank you for the explanation, now it is clear to me and I would vote to > Use your text proposal for the charter. > > Regards > Christian > > > -----Original Message----- > From: davidbryan@gmail.com [mailto:davidbryan@gmail.com] On Behalf Of ext > David A. Bryan > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 3:27 PM > To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) > Cc: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal > > Hi Christian, > > I don't think the goal is that PPSP should not be able to request > changes at all -- in fact, I hope some interesting uses, which could > mean changes/extensions do come out of PPSP. In the case of the P2PSIP > charter, the language was to make it clear at charter time that P2PSIP > wasn't going to be directly changing SIP itself, but would go through > other groups. In PPSP, I think it should be to make it clear that PPSP > work won't be able to directly change P2PSIP/ALTO etc. specifications, > but would push any suggested changes needed to the respective group. > Perhaps it is redundant (IETF rules tend to imply a group can't > usually modify another group's documents), but as chair, it has proved > to be very useful text from a scoping perspective in P2PSIP. > > I tried to capture that in my rewrite, but if I didn't quite get it > right, we should certainly try changing the wording a bit more. > > David > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - > DE/Munich) wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> Your modification looks better then the orginal text. >> Question: >> Is the goal of the sentence, that e.g. requirements from PPSP should not >> Be able to request changes in reload-base specification? >> These requirements would have to be documented in a separate document? >> Or what should this sentence avoid? >> >> Regards >> Christian >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: davidbryan@gmail.com [mailto:davidbryan@gmail.com] On Behalf Of ex= t >> David A. Bryan >> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:52 PM >> To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) >> Cc: ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal >> >> So looking at the change suggested below, essentially you are looking >> to remove the sentence: >> >> "The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, ALTO, >> LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors." >> >> Overall, this section of the charter is very much like (even borrowed >> from) the P2PSIP charter, where the similar line basically says the >> P2PSIP group, in itself, is not authorized to modify SIP. I think >> there is a similar intended here, so I wouldn't support removing the >> sentence entirely as you suggest, but I think different wording is >> might be needed (i.e., using the work "assume" almost implies that the >> protocols won't need to be changed, when he right wording should be >> more about PPSP not being the place to modify them if they need it. >> >> How about: >> >> "The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close >> participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >> ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC. While the PPSP WG cannot modify baseline >> P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT or MMUSIC behaviors, if PPSP determines that >> extensions or modifications are required, PPSP may seek to define such >> extensions and present them to the respective working groups." >> >> Thoughts? >> >> David >> >> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - >> DE/Munich) wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> (this time the finished mail) >>> >>> in general I think, the charter is in a good shape. >>> Perhaps in some points clarifications are possible. >>> >>> The following topics are excluded from this WG's scope: >>> 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. >>> using >>> TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. However the=C2=A0 design=C2=A0 o= f=C2=A0 PPSP >>> will >>> consider how it can be combined with the transport mechanisms, includin= g >>> NAT >>> traversal problem. The design of PPSP will also consider the scenario o= f >>> transmission=C2=A0of=C2=A0multiple streams=C2=A0 (layered=C2=A0 media).= =C2=A0 This includes >>> considering various media descriptions (e.g. data chunk description in >>> peer >>> protocol) after investigating different media coding mechanisms (e.g. >>> SVC, >>> MDC) to incorporate their features in the protocol. >>> >>> This somehow mixes different issues: >>> - Transmission protocol selecion (not included) >>> - NAT traversal (included?) >>> - Usage of more then one stream for one channel (included?) >>> - Media descriptions (included?) >>> >>> Most of the items=C2=A0 are not exluded from the WG=C2=B4s scope and sh= ould not be >>> mentioned under this headline. >>> My proposal would be: >>> - to shorten point one of excluded topic to: >>> 1. Transport mechanisms for data transmission among PPSP peers, e.g. >>> using >>> TCP or UDP, unicast or multicast, etc. >>> - to add a short passage before the WGs primary tasks: >>> NAT traversal, the usage of multiple streams (layered media) are in sco= pe >>> of >>> the WG. >>> >>> The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close >>> participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >>> ALTO,LEDBAT >>> and MMUSIC. The PPSP WG assumes that it cannot modify baseline P2PSIP, >>> ALTO, >>> LEDBAT and MMUSIC behaviors. If PPSP determines that extensions to >>> P2PSIP, >>> ALTO,LEDBAT and MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such >>> extensions >>> and present to the respective working groups. >>> >>> What is the reason for this assumption? And how can we know before the >>> related=C2=A0needed extensions are known? >>> My proposal: >>> The work planned for the PPSP WG is distinct from, but requires close >>> participation with, work in other IETF WGs, particularly P2PSIP, >>> ALTO,LEDBAT >>> and MMUSIC. If PPSP determines that extensions to P2PSIP, ALTO,LEDBAT a= nd >>> MMUSIC are needed, PPSP will seek to define such extensions and present >>> to >>> the respective working groups for evalution. >>> >>> Best Regards >>> Christian Schmidt >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ppsp mailing list >>> ppsp@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --=20 Victor Pascual =C3=81vila From zongning@huawei.com Tue Jan 19 13:10:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4098D3A68FB for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:10:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.287 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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19:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.709 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.709 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.714, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_92=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tKWy0ChzGy2E for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139C13A63D3 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.135]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012111344185-6470 ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:34:41 +0800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:19:45 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-21 11:34:41, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-21 11:23:00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon281078681573_=====" Subject: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:23:06 -0000 --=====003_Dragon281078681573_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgYWxsLA0KICBJIGhhdmUgdXBkYXRlZCB0aGUgUFBTUCBjaGFydGVyIGFjY29yZGluZyB0byB0 aGUgcmVjZW50IGhvdCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGluIHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QuVGhlIG1haW4gY2hh 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Apr2010

Working=20 Group Last Call for problem statement

Jun2010

Submit=20 problem statement to IESG as Informational=20 document

Aug2010

Working=20 Group Last Call for architecture survey

Aug2010

Working=20 Group Last Call for requirements

Oct2010

Submit=20 architecture survey to IESG as Informational=20 document

Oct2010

Submit=20 requirements to IESG as Informational document

<= /TD>

Apr2011

Working=20 Group Last Call for PPSP peer protocol

Apr2011

Working=20 Group Last Call for PPSP tracker protocol

<= /TR>

Aug2011

Submit=20 PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Aug2011

Submit=20 PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

Nov2011

Working=20 Group Last Call of usage document

Nov2011

Working=20 Group Last Call of mobility BCP document

Jan2012

Submit=20 usage document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Jan2012

Submit=20 mobility BCP document to IESG as Informational=20 document

Apr2012

Dissolve=20 or re-charter

zhangyunfei
2010-01-21
 --=====003_Dragon281078681573_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Jan 20 19:44:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815C63A695B for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:44:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -93.778 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-93.778 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.903, BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id emuHb4HBRyOX for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04983A67E6 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.135]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012111562867-7187 ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:56:28 +0800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:41:31 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Y.J. Gu" , "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" References: <002401ca9597$9e6267d0$400ca40a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <201001211141318127046@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-21 11:56:28, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-21 11:44:43, Serialize complete at 2010-01-21 11:44:43 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon738723015667_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:44:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon738723015667_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: 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zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Jan 20 19:45:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6983A67E6 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:45:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.526 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.526 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.147, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i+qIErQE2QUz for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFA53A67AC for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.135]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012111572867-7212 ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:57:28 +0800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:42:31 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "=?gb2312?B?QWxiZXJ0b19Kb3PpX0dvbnrhbGV6X0NlbGE=?=" , "Song Haibin" References: <00b001ca97e9$ee9bea10$180ca40a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <201001211142318122658@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-21 11:57:28, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-21 11:45:41, Serialize complete at 2010-01-21 11:45:41 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon073258605477_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to 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L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon073258605477_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Jan 21 00:01:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7E03A6803 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 00:01:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E2vnFflrpItf for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 00:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0FF3A67E9 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 00:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012116130662-14076 ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:13:06 +0800 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:58:06 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "David A. Bryan" , "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" References: <200912261652001400916@chinamobile.com> <8b2769931001130451o2554a99cx881ab6c34474c61a@mail.gmail.com> <8b2769931001180627h60b41b2l8c387df5fa97045e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201001211558061713466@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-21 16:13:12, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-21 16:01:29, Serialize complete at 2010-01-21 16:01:29 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon772418407216_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp revised charter proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:01:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message 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cEBpZXRmLm9yZzwvRElWPg0KPERJVj4mZ3Q7ICZndDsgJm5ic3A7aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9wcHNwPC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPiZndDsgJmd0OzwvRElWPg0KPERJ Vj4mZ3Q7ICZndDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jmd0OzwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9I VE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon772418407216_=====-- From lars.eggert@nokia.com Thu Jan 21 03:12:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA783A690D for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:12:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.561 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.561 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1AE6NhcS3-oH for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:12:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6753A6946 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:12:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o0LBCDFu020789 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 05:12:31 -0600 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:12:04 +0200 Received: from mgw-sa01.ext.nokia.com ([147.243.1.47]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:12:04 +0200 Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-sa01.ext.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o0LBC3HU002017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:12:04 +0200 From: Lars Eggert X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-149782928; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:11:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> To: ppsp@ietf.org References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> Message-Id: <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [0.0.0.0]); Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:11:48 +0200 (EET) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jan 2010 11:12:05.0042 (UTC) FILETIME=[904A1920:01CA9A8A] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:12:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1-149782928 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2010-1-21, at 5:19, zhangyunfei wrote: > Gonzalo and I would like to submit it to Lars based on the consensus = in the mailing list. thanks for the charter proposal. I've taken your version and edited it a = bit further. Please find my version below and let me know if you agree = or disagree with what you see. Here's what I changed: - reworded the description of the scope a bit and removed some = duplication between the introductory paragraphs and the work items - removed some "this is out of scope" text, because it's implied = (everything not listed is out of scope...) - cut the text about security; it's clear this will be needed so we = don't need it specifically on the charter - cut mentioning the P2PRG; again, it's clear we'll work with them as/if = needed - removed the "mobility BCP document" work item, since it wasn't talked = about anywhere in the charter so far? - bumped the milestone dates a bit & just listed "submit to IESG" = milestones Lars Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP)=20 -------------------------------------------------- Current Status: Proposed Working Group Chair(s): TBD Transport Area Director(s): Magnus Westerlund Lars Eggert Transport Area Advisor: Lars Eggert =20 Mailing Lists: ppsp@ietf.org Description of Working Group: The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming system for transmitting live and pre-recorded media content. Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that change over time. The set of peers that are participating in a streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers are well-known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set. The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items. The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of media data between the peers. Existing IETF and other standards will be used for the encoding and transmission of the media content between peers. PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout scheduling and control, etc. The work items of the PPSP WG are: (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for=20 standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those standardized components and discusses common terminologies and concepts. (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional, operational and performance requirements of the two PPSP = protocols. (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming systems, and highlights best current practices. (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and existing IETF protocols, such as RELOAD, ALTO or RTSP, can be combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system. This document may also discuss variants of such a system that, for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk descriptions in peer protocol for more robust streaming. The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs. The design of such extensions is out of scope for PPSP. Goals and Milestones: Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard=20 Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational --Apple-Mail-1-149782928 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGbDCCAyUw ggKOoAMCAQICEAdjk36sXKbnVn15S0/qUp0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA5MDYxNTExMjYxNFoXDTEwMDYxNTExMjYx NFowXDEPMA0GA1UEBBMGRWdnZXJ0MQ0wCwYDVQQqEwRMYXJzMRQwEgYDVQQDEwtMYXJzIEVnZ2Vy 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--Apple-Mail-1-149782928-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Jan 21 17:36:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F793A677C for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:36:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.472 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.472 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, FRT_APPROV=1.645, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3gVHpYxpLhcR for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DE73A67AF for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:36:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012209473095-3368 ; Fri, 22 Jan 2010 09:47:30 +0800 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 09:32:28 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Lars Eggert" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> Message-ID: <201001220932274849998@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-22 09:47:36, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-22 09:35:56, Serialize complete at 2010-01-22 09:35:56 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon687253083442_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 01:36:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon687253083442_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgTGFycywNCiAgIFRoYW5rcyBzbyBtdWNoIGZvciB5b3VyIHJldmlldyBhbmQgY2FyZWZ1bGx5 IG1vZGlmaWNhdGlvbi5UaGUgY2hhcnRlciBsb29rcyBwZXJmZWN0IGFuZCBtb3JlIGNsZWFyLkkg YWdyZWUgd2l0aCBhbGwgeW91ciBjaGFuZ2VzIG9uIFBQU1AgY2hhcnRlci5TaW5jZXJlbHkgdGhh bmtzIGZvciBhbGwgeW91ciBoZWxwIGluIG1vdmluZyBmb3J3YXJkIFBQU1AgYW5kIHdpc2ggaXQg Y2FuIGJlIGFwcHByb3ZlZCBieSBJRVNHIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWxseS4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0K WXVuZmVpDQoNCg0KDQoNCnpoYW5neXVuZmVpDQoyMDEwLTAxLTIyDQoNCg0KDQq3orz+yMujuiBM YXJzIEVnZ2VydA0Kt6LLzcqxvOSjuiAyMDEwLTAxLTIxIDE5OjI0OjMwDQrK1bz+yMujuiBwcHNw QGlldGYub3JnDQqzrcvNo7ogDQrW98zio7ogUmU6IFtwcHNwXSBMYXRlc3QgdXBkYXRlZCB2ZXJz aW9uIG9mIFBQU1AgY2hhcnRlcg0KDQpIaSwNCg0KT24gIDIwMTAtMS0yMSwgIGF0ICA1OjE5LCAg 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tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l0Qxk-ulJmmG for ; Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from idcout.InterDigital.com (idcexmail.interdigital.com [12.32.197.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653873A677C for ; Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from interdigital.com ([10.0.128.11]) by idcout.InterDigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:37:59 -0500 Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:37:02 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:37:57 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter Thread-Index: AcqaiqXRXlFEoX/+Tw+9Xq898brS6wBJhAAg References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> From: "Zuniga, Juan Carlos" To: "Lars Eggert" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jan 2010 22:37:02.0279 (UTC) FILETIME=[6A908D70:01CA9BB3] Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:38:05 -0000 Hi Lars, The problem statement mentions the need to consider mobility in the context of PPSP, e.g.: " It is worth mentioning at this point that the development of PPSP should consider the requirements of mobile Internet. For example, the overhead of PPSP be small in low bandwidth mobile Internet. Also, information exchange in PPSP should support mobility, low battery and heterogeneous capabilities of mobile terminals." I would suggest leaving the "mobility BCP document" work item and adding supporting paragraphs in the charter, similar to the ones in the PS. For instance, the following work item description can be added: =20 ... (7) A "mobility BCP" document describing how to better handle PPSP over mobile networks, for instance, taking into account considerations such as low overhead, information exchange mobility support, low battery consumption and heterogeneous capabilities of mobile terminals. ... Best regards, Juan Carlos > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Lars Eggert > Sent: Thursday, 21 January, 2010 6:12 AM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On 2010-1-21, at 5:19, zhangyunfei wrote: > > Gonzalo and I would like to submit it to Lars based on the consensus > in the mailing list. >=20 > thanks for the charter proposal. I've taken your version and edited it > a bit further. Please find my version below and let me know if you > agree or disagree with what you see. >=20 > Here's what I changed: >=20 > - reworded the description of the scope a bit and removed some > duplication between the introductory paragraphs and the work items >=20 > - removed some "this is out of scope" text, because it's implied > (everything not listed is out of scope...) >=20 > - cut the text about security; it's clear this will be needed so we > don't need it specifically on the charter >=20 > - cut mentioning the P2PRG; again, it's clear we'll work with them > as/if needed >=20 > - removed the "mobility BCP document" work item, since it wasn't talked > about anywhere in the charter so far? >=20 > - bumped the milestone dates a bit & just listed "submit to IESG" > milestones >=20 > Lars >=20 >=20 > Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) > -------------------------------------------------- > Current Status: Proposed Working Group >=20 > Chair(s): > TBD >=20 > Transport Area Director(s): > Magnus Westerlund > Lars Eggert >=20 > Transport Area Advisor: > Lars Eggert >=20 > Mailing Lists: > ppsp@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > Description of Working Group: >=20 > The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops two > signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming > system for transmitting live and pre-recorded media content. >=20 > Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., > "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending and > receiving streamed media content, and include both statically connected > hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that > change over time. The set of peers that are participating in a > streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers are well- > known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta information > about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set. >=20 > The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between > trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling and > control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP "peer > protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming data > within the time constraints required by specific content items. > The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of meta > information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and content > information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of > media data between the peers. >=20 > Existing IETF and other standards will be used for the encoding and > transmission of the media content between peers. PPSP is not chartered > to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or > other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout scheduling > and control, etc. >=20 > The work items of the PPSP WG are: >=20 > (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the > proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for > standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those > standardized components and discusses common terminologies and > concepts. >=20 > (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional, > operational and performance requirements of the two PPSP > protocols. >=20 > (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current > P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P > streaming systems, and highlights best current practices. >=20 > (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. >=20 > (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. >=20 > (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and > existing IETF protocols, such as RELOAD, ALTO or RTSP, can be > combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system. > This document may also discuss variants of such a system that, > for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk > descriptions in peer protocol for more robust streaming. >=20 > The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in > other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever > extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs are > deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the requirements > for such extensions with the relevant WGs. The design of such > extensions is out of scope for PPSP. >=20 >=20 > Goals and Milestones: >=20 > Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational > Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational > Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational > Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard > Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard > Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational From lars.eggert@nokia.com Fri Jan 22 22:23:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529273A6864 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:23:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D195e0n6koop for ; Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7BA73A6860 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o0N6MUut028843; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 00:23:04 -0600 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 23 Jan 2010 08:22:32 +0200 Received: from mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com ([147.243.1.48]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 23 Jan 2010 08:22:32 +0200 Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o0N6MUMO014579 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 23 Jan 2010 08:22:31 +0200 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-4-305220177; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 08:22:25 +0200 Message-Id: <95772E8D-7A45-4575-BF3C-06A3A95296DA@nokia.com> References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> To: "Zuniga, Juan Carlos" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [0.0.0.0]); Sat, 23 Jan 2010 08:22:25 +0200 (EET) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2010 06:22:32.0536 (UTC) FILETIME=[724B8D80:01CA9BF4] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 06:23:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail-4-305220177 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2010-1-23, at 0:37, Zuniga, Juan Carlos wrote: > The problem statement mentions the need to consider mobility in the > context of PPSP, e.g.: >=20 > " It is worth mentioning at this point that the development of PPSP > should consider the requirements of mobile Internet. For example, > the overhead of PPSP be small in low bandwidth mobile Internet. > Also, information exchange in PPSP should support mobility, low > battery and heterogeneous capabilities of mobile terminals." you're quoting the previous charter text.=20 > I would suggest leaving the "mobility BCP document" work item and = adding > supporting paragraphs in the charter, similar to the ones in the PS. = For > instance, the following work item description can be added: >=20 > (7) A "mobility BCP" document describing how to better handle PPSP > over mobile networks, for instance, taking into account considerations > such as low overhead, information exchange mobility support, low = battery > consumption and heterogeneous capabilities of mobile terminals. I agree that mobile peers need to be supported and the new charter says = so, but I believe this will need to be done as part of the protocol = specifications and cannot be done as an add-on document. In other words, = we've always found out that it is very difficult if not impossible to = design something and then add "mobility support" to it later. 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.735, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T25IaOMnvF0t for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB963A67E5 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012317522992-9699 ; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:52:29 +0800 Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:37:21 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Lars Eggert" , "Zuniga, Juan Carlos" References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <95772E8D-7A45-4575-BF3C-06A3A95296DA@nokia.com> Message-ID: <201001231737208123147@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-23 17:52:30, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-23 17:40:41, Serialize complete at 2010-01-23 17:40:41 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon047062587363_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 09:40:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon047062587363_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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SVY+TGFyc19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fPC9E SVY+DQo8RElWPnBwc3AgJm5ic3A7bWFpbGluZyAmbmJzcDtsaXN0PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPnBwc3BA aWV0Zi5vcmc8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9wcHNwPC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1M Pg0K --=====003_Dragon047062587363_=====-- From JuanCarlos.Zuniga@InterDigital.com Mon Jan 25 07:43:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B223A6816 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:43:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.341 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.341 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nA0arNcPB0Cn for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from idcout.InterDigital.com (idcexmail.interdigital.com [12.32.197.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058143A6817 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from interdigital.com ([10.0.128.11]) by idcout.InterDigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:43:33 -0500 Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.11]) by interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:43:33 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CA9DD5.2656416D" Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:44:46 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <201001231737208123147@chinamobile.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter Thread-Index: AcqcECS1UlCAH2IgTsiSh05DezpzQgBxRUMw References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com><237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com><95772E8D-7A45-4575-BF3C-06A3A95296DA@nokia.com> <201001231737208123147@chinamobile.com> From: "Zuniga, Juan Carlos" To: "zhangyunfei" , "Lars Eggert" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2010 15:43:33.0822 (UTC) FILETIME=[26CFADE0:01CA9DD5] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 15:43:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9DD5.2656416D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yunfei, Lars, =20 I agree that mobility should be taken into account from the beginning, = and if you both believe that the work will fulfill the mobility = requirements then I=A1=AFm fine with it. =20 Thanks for the clarifications. =20 Regards, =20 Juan Carlos =20 =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = zhangyunfei Sent: Saturday, 23 January, 2010 4:37 AM To: Lars Eggert; Zuniga, Juan Carlos Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter =20 Hi Juan Carlos, Some mobile support description is as follows in the new = charter.Please refer to it. ********************************************* Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, = i.e.,"peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending = and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically = connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP = addresses that change over time. ********************************************* And I think we can share the pracitce of deploying PPSP with mobile = devices participation in the "usage guide" document. Thanks for your suggestion. =20 BR Yunfei=20 =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2010-01-23 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Lars Eggert =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2010-01-23 14:35:48 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Zuniga, Juan Carlos =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter =20 Hi, =20 On 2010-1-23, at 0:37, Zuniga, Juan Carlos wrote: > The problem statement mentions the need to consider mobility = in the > context of PPSP, e.g.: > =20 > " It is worth mentioning at this point that the development = of PPSP > should consider the requirements of mobile Internet. For = example, > the overhead of PPSP be small in low bandwidth mobile = Internet. > Also, information exchange in PPSP should support = mobility, low > battery and heterogeneous capabilities of mobile = terminals." =20 you're quoting the previous charter text. =20 =20 > I would suggest leaving the "mobility BCP document" work = item and adding > supporting paragraphs in the charter, similar to the ones in = the PS. For > instance, the following work item description can be added: > =20 > (7) A "mobility BCP" document describing how to better = handle PPSP > over mobile networks, for instance, taking into account = considerations > such as low overhead, information exchange mobility support, = low battery > consumption and heterogeneous capabilities of mobile terminals. =20 I agree that mobile peers need to be supported and the new = charter says so, but I believe this will need to be done as = part of the protocol specifications and cannot be done as an = add-on document. In other words, we've always found out that = it is very difficult if not impossible to design something and = then add "mobility support" to it later. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Lars_______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9DD5.2656416D Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yunfei, Lars,

 

I agree that mobility should be taken into account from = the beginning, and if you both believe that the work will fulfill the mobility = requirements then I=A1=AFm fine with it.

 

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

Regards,

 

Juan Carlos

 

 

From:= ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = zhangyunfei
Sent: Saturday, 23 January, 2010 4:37 AM
To: Lars Eggert; Zuniga, Juan Carlos
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP = charter

 

Hi Juan = Carlos,

   Some = mobile support description is as follows in the new charter.Please refer to = it.

********************= *************************

Two kinds of nodes = exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e.,"peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending and = receiving streamed media content, and include both statically connected hosts as = well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that change over = time.

********************= *************************

    = = And I think we can share the pracitce of deploying PPSP with mobile = devices participation in the "usage guide" document.

    = Thanks for your suggestion.

 

BR

Yunfei 

 

zhangyunfei

2010-01-23=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Lars = Eggert

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA 2010-01-23 14:35:48

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Zuniga, = Juan Carlos

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA = ppsp@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: = [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter

 

Hi,

 

On  2010-1-23,  at  0:37,  Zuniga,  Juan  Carlos =  wrote:

>  The  problem  statement  mentions  the  need  to =  consider  mobility  in  the

>  context  of  PPSP,  e.g.:

> =  

>  "  It =  is  worth  mentioning  at  this  point  that  the  development  of  PPSP

>     =  should  consider  the  requirements  of  mobile  Internet.    For  example,

>      the  overhead  of  PPSP  be  small  in =  low  bandwidth  mobile  Internet.

>     =  Also,  information  exchange  in  PPSP  should =  support  mobility,  low

>     =  battery  and  heterogeneous  capabilities  of  mobile  terminals."

 

you're  quoting =  the  previous  charter  text.  

 

>  I  would  suggest  leaving  the  "mobility  BCP  document"  work  item  and =  adding

>  supporting  paragraphs  in  the  charter,  similar =  to  the  ones  in  the  PS. =  For

>  instance, =  the  following  work  item  description  can =  be  added:

> =  

>  (7)   A  "mobility  BCP"  document  describing =  how  to  better  handle  PPSP

>  over  mobile  networks,  for  instance,  taking  into =  account  considerations

>  such  as =  low  overhead,  information  exchange  mobility =  support,  low  battery

>  consumption =  and  heterogeneous  capabilities  of  mobile =  terminals.

 

I  agree  that  mobile  peers  need  to  be  supported =  and  the  new  charter  says  so,  but  I  believe  this  will  need  to  be =  done  as  part  of  the  protocol  specifications =  and  cannot  be  done  as  an  add-on =  document.  In  other  words,  we've  always  found  out  that  it  is  very  difficult =  if  not  impossible  to  design  something =  and  then  add  "mobility  support"  to =  it  later.

 

 

 

 

 

Lars__________________________= _____________________

ppsp  mailing =  list

ppsp@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/ppsp

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9DD5.2656416D-- From albertojgc@gmail.com Mon Jan 25 14:15:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5DD28C0EB for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:15:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O7wCE2zmhPpS for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:15:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com [209.85.218.224]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5B828C0D7 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so570938bwz.29 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:15:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TYSA7Pfg6kUJbH2ZqzB2y8C+H/81dXPdNIoVsdRk3Z0=; b=axhTNGBv7In0qwrPtjCGIM+603uARqOmx3RGPWmUSy98DjVM+cqNiFreU91Et5InWF GaE14Du/Lu9KOX8P+gJGLP9Xb2Y9YIY4OskcaRq9j4WpulhqGvuajfSLMFPw7aq32e6X D+r/rJt55Lz3NuCO/b+UbeludhIWnJQCVBPN8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cjyKMP0CNpdgQ+A4Z7ia0bkztqxSA+5aTdoOuKQB12HDIHBhirU6n/LlsZwdHjYzkw WJgWBGKVQJG9+lUBHDFm+n6l+pgTcRJKD4ow8N9zXri4QUtcL7WBbFGuUTZ458G14/UQ mTDXnwVp6PCPEPnUhV6Q8SyjQ9qhJ+sJsX9ls= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.5.198 with SMTP id 6mr1681295bkw.141.1264457718583; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:15:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:15:18 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp Digest, Vol 16, Issue 19 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:15:16 -0000 Totally agree. Mobility should be taken into account from the beginning as a key requirement. BR, Alberto. > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:44:46 -0500 > From: "Zuniga, Juan Carlos" > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter > To: "zhangyunfei" , =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"Lars Egg= ert" > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Message-ID: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"gb2312" > > Yunfei, Lars, > > > > I agree that mobility should be taken into account from the beginning, an= d if you both believe that the work will fulfill the mobility requirements = then I?m fine with it. > > > > Thanks for the clarifications. > > > > Regards, > > > > Juan Carlos > > > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of z= hangyunfei > Sent: Saturday, 23 January, 2010 4:37 AM > To: Lars Eggert; Zuniga, Juan Carlos > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter > > > > Hi Juan Carlos, > > =A0 Some mobile support description is as follows in the new charter.Plea= se refer to it. > > ********************************************* > > Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e.,"peer= s" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending and receiving = streamed media content, and include both statically connected hosts as well= as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that change over time= . > > ********************************************* > > =A0 =A0And I think we can share the pracitce of deploying PPSP with mobil= e devices participation in the "usage guide" document. > > =A0 =A0Thanks for your suggestion. > > > > BR > > Yunfei > > > > ________________________________ > > zhangyunfei > > 2010-01-23 > > ________________________________ > > ???? Lars Eggert > > ????? 2010-01-23 14:35:48 > > ???? Zuniga, Juan Carlos > > ??? ppsp@ietf.org > > ??? Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter > > > > Hi, > > > > On =A02010-1-23, =A0at =A00:37, =A0Zuniga, =A0Juan =A0Carlos =A0wrote: > >> =A0The =A0problem =A0statement =A0mentions =A0the =A0need =A0to =A0consi= der =A0mobility =A0in =A0the > >> =A0context =A0of =A0PPSP, =A0e.g.: > >> > >> =A0" =A0It =A0is =A0worth =A0mentioning =A0at =A0this =A0point =A0that = =A0the =A0development =A0of =A0PPSP > >> =A0 =A0 =A0should =A0consider =A0the =A0requirements =A0of =A0mobile =A0= Internet. =A0 =A0For =A0example, > >> =A0 =A0 =A0the =A0overhead =A0of =A0PPSP =A0be =A0small =A0in =A0low =A0= bandwidth =A0mobile =A0Internet. > >> =A0 =A0 =A0Also, =A0information =A0exchange =A0in =A0PPSP =A0should =A0s= upport =A0mobility, =A0low > >> =A0 =A0 =A0battery =A0and =A0heterogeneous =A0capabilities =A0of =A0mobi= le =A0terminals." > > > > you're =A0quoting =A0the =A0previous =A0charter =A0text. > > > >> =A0I =A0would =A0suggest =A0leaving =A0the =A0"mobility =A0BCP =A0docume= nt" =A0work =A0item =A0and =A0adding > >> =A0supporting =A0paragraphs =A0in =A0the =A0charter, =A0similar =A0to = =A0the =A0ones =A0in =A0the =A0PS. =A0For > >> =A0instance, =A0the =A0following =A0work =A0item =A0description =A0can = =A0be =A0added: > >> > >> =A0(7) =A0 A =A0"mobility =A0BCP" =A0document =A0describing =A0how =A0to= =A0better =A0handle =A0PPSP > >> =A0over =A0mobile =A0networks, =A0for =A0instance, =A0taking =A0into =A0= account =A0considerations > >> =A0such =A0as =A0low =A0overhead, =A0information =A0exchange =A0mobility= =A0support, =A0low =A0battery > >> =A0consumption =A0and =A0heterogeneous =A0capabilities =A0of =A0mobile = =A0terminals. > > > > I =A0agree =A0that =A0mobile =A0peers =A0need =A0to =A0be =A0supported = =A0and =A0the =A0new =A0charter =A0says =A0so, =A0but =A0I =A0believe =A0th= is =A0will =A0need =A0to =A0be =A0done =A0as =A0part =A0of =A0the =A0protoc= ol =A0specifications =A0and =A0cannot =A0be =A0done =A0as =A0an =A0add-on = =A0document. =A0In =A0other =A0words, =A0we've =A0always =A0found =A0out = =A0that =A0it =A0is =A0very =A0difficult =A0if =A0not =A0impossible =A0to = =A0design =A0something =A0and =A0then =A0add =A0"mobility =A0support" =A0to= =A0it =A0later. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lars_______________________________________________ > > ppsp =A0mailing =A0list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > End of ppsp Digest, Vol 16, Issue 19 > ************************************ > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Jan 25 17:32:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 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"=?gb2312?B?QWxiZXJ0b19Kb3PpX0dvbnrhbGV6X0NlbGE=?=" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <201001260928585626543@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-26 09:44:21, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-26 09:32:17, Serialize complete at 2010-01-26 09:32:17 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon282815660615_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp Digest, Vol 16, Issue 19 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 01:32:11 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon282815660615_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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PjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= --=====003_Dragon282815660615_=====-- From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Tue Jan 26 10:59:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0133A67FC for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:59:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0iSWMIVjsRsk for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw5.ericsson.se (mailgw5.ericsson.se [193.180.251.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADD93A6804 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:59:35 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb24-b7c64ae000005cb7-d4-4b5f3b9128a1 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw5.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 26.15.23735.19B3F5B4; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:59:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.172]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:59:29 +0100 Received: from [131.160.126.209] ([131.160.126.209]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:59:29 +0100 Message-ID: <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:59:29 +0200 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lars Eggert References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 18:59:29.0530 (UTC) FILETIME=[B02C1DA0:01CA9EB9] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:59:37 -0000 Hi, I think this charter proposal is almost ready. Thanks everyone for your comments! A few extra comments from my side: The charter needs to state that the WG will take into account real-time requirements. That is, we are not building a file sharing system but a system that can handle real-time streams. The charter already says that live streaming is within scope. You may or may not want to further stress this point. At the last BOF, there were people who were confused by the term "signalling" protocol. They assumed that a signalling or control protocol would not carry data... but the protocol to be used between peers will actually transfer data chunks. We may want to clarify that is the case. Also at the last BOF, there was a discussion on whether or not the WG should address privacy issues. Privacy in terms of who is participating in the system and who is watching a given stream. Some people (e.g., Dave Oran) thought this still is a research issue and, thus, should be out of scope. Other people thought the WG should try and tackle it because it is an important property... if people cannot agree on this, it may be worthwhile letting those who believe it is feasible to tackle privacy issues within the WG start working on a model to provide this type of privacy and check at some point if that model can really resolve the privacy issues at hand. My 2 cents... Cheers, Gonzalo Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2010-1-21, at 5:19, zhangyunfei wrote: >> Gonzalo and I would like to submit it to Lars based on the consensus in the mailing list. > > thanks for the charter proposal. I've taken your version and edited it a bit further. Please find my version below and let me know if you agree or disagree with what you see. > > Here's what I changed: > > - reworded the description of the scope a bit and removed some duplication between the introductory paragraphs and the work items > > - removed some "this is out of scope" text, because it's implied (everything not listed is out of scope...) > > - cut the text about security; it's clear this will be needed so we don't need it specifically on the charter > > - cut mentioning the P2PRG; again, it's clear we'll work with them as/if needed > > - removed the "mobility BCP document" work item, since it wasn't talked about anywhere in the charter so far? > > - bumped the milestone dates a bit & just listed "submit to IESG" milestones > > Lars > > > Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) > -------------------------------------------------- > Current Status: Proposed Working Group > > Chair(s): > TBD > > Transport Area Director(s): > Magnus Westerlund > Lars Eggert > > Transport Area Advisor: > Lars Eggert > > Mailing Lists: > ppsp@ietf.org > > > Description of Working Group: > > The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops > two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming > system for transmitting live and pre-recorded media content. > > Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., > "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending > and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically > connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP > addresses that change over time. The set of peers that are participating > in a streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers > are well-known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta > information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set. > > The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between > trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling > and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP > "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming > data within the time constraints required by specific content items. > The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of > meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and > content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and > exchange of media data between the peers. > > Existing IETF and other standards will be used for the encoding and > transmission of the media content between peers. PPSP is not chartered > to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques > or other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout > scheduling and control, etc. > > The work items of the PPSP WG are: > > (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the > proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for > standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those > standardized components and discusses common terminologies and > concepts. > > (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional, > operational and performance requirements of the two PPSP protocols. > > (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current > P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P > streaming systems, and highlights best current practices. > > (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. > > (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. > > (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and > existing IETF protocols, such as RELOAD, ALTO or RTSP, can be > combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system. > This document may also discuss variants of such a system that, > for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk > descriptions in peer protocol for more robust streaming. > > The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in > other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever > extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs > are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the > requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs. The design > of such extensions is out of scope for PPSP. > > > Goals and Milestones: > > Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational > Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational > Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational > Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard > Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard > Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational > > From davidbryan@gmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:15:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1ADB3A6842 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V95CchQG0uTM for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-f196.google.com (mail-yw0-f196.google.com [209.85.211.196]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1824B3A682E for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by ywh34 with SMTP id 34so3195071ywh.31 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:15:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=pJBWipFNsbk4HS3aTVN8vr380bRVG38qtLwoBlrkrlU=; b=NIai1GUm9GWq399GPidv5MAlvusWsYvxWqXr7+Xi6ZbnlK7i8CyJwnxvMFF4OkqxbI eVe/oYCm4rJmv8tF60gOYMz/XH3OO3gJa7o9L3WGc1iEcTFDWfJvjApgRjRgaLTL7+wf shbZhQkXMTZUyhBTk6ssjbXrQZulArDHebrOI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=RtXHGncUYkr4YwdglTiHZhM2cMYXeb0J6gcwYj9lQ6FvR4mMwMj/XIb1a1M9pGWAeP c4KdpEieYm6e66F/7W5ciEpQXFHbrDsQw9ZlpJoh3HXFH8P1aohnsHIPT6eAX+Goilbi uSVxpcAyN7CP6SwRtyPj5nwiCc9fzEC9oZvuU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: davidbryan@gmail.com Received: by 10.150.128.19 with SMTP id a19mr1600638ybd.79.1264536933818; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:15:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:15:33 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8d1540aaf7c48f2a Message-ID: <8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> From: "David A. Bryan" To: Gonzalo Camarillo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:15:27 -0000 Just to make sure there is no confusion, can you clarify this comment a bit, as I'm still a bit confused! On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > At the last BOF, there were people who were confused by the term > "signalling" protocol. They assumed that a signalling or control > protocol would not carry data... but the protocol to be used between > peers will actually transfer data chunks. We may want to clarify that is > the case. I think what you are saying here is that you *do* think the peer protocol (but I assume not the tracker protocol) will actually transfer the data. Is that correct? If so, the statement in the charter "PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission protocols" seems a bit contradictory. I guess maybe I am one of those who felt that signalling meant "not carrying data". Are you picturing that we do use the peer protocol itself to exchange chunks in the off-line scenario, but that some existing streaming media protocol would be used in the live streaming scenario? (or have I just hopelessly mangled what you meant to say ;) ) If we do transfer the chunks in the peer protocol itself rather than using some existing bulk transfer protocol (even if just the off-line case), depending on the transport we then have the concerns fragmentation etc., which I would assume would then be in-scope for the peer protocol design? Just trying to get a handle on what you are thinking here (and see if you and Lars are on the same page...). Thanks! David From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:24:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831153A69AC for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yg9aoA29dBnD for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f224.google.com (mail-bw0-f224.google.com [209.85.218.224]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602C63A698B for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz24 with SMTP id 24so1393084bwz.29 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JXBT24/2eDpnTQDUKNgF1UxxnnvrqW95XNRpmnE9hcY=; b=ghsq+7EAWvEqyrFRiHL6QicktRP8pvsHOY/IcsOiFpjDF2IlDmPF4INV0nrSVJSKdO Da8eksiRfCgfvW83nYtJm6lfVMU1dPstVcoOuntI9XhlK4iLMUmkjk8lWMeFOwXFFJBS 0viEDv4eIF97yhPXl6pOJeWgyjbs5KW8NhHoc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UE7uH4TREyQHjpdZIe6NHo79t0EspoCrzOJtR23YECjZijkTicUxC8T/V0M2d7Bwl1 kFLTLuMKa6xp7Sg5834b1J3Dqh264bYyBxV5u3s7iTiqFDJRIAyo+O3hr3XHFFRZemCr Af3Bgun73X3kDFDK2uYRwvr7gWKcL/JTGaibo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.156.27 with SMTP id u27mr2028244bkw.61.1264537481307; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> <8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:24:41 +0100 Message-ID: <618e24241001261224u128f47b3x739bcedee910f081@mail.gmail.com> From: Victor Pascual Avila To: "David A. Bryan" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:24:35 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 9:15 PM, David A. Bryan wrote= : > Just to make sure there is no confusion, can you clarify this comment > a bit, as I'm still a bit confused! > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Gonzalo Camarillo > wrote: > >> At the last BOF, there were people who were confused by the term >> "signalling" protocol. They assumed that a signalling or control >> protocol would not carry data... but the protocol to be used between >> peers will actually transfer data chunks. We may want to clarify that is >> the case. > > I think what you are saying here is that you *do* think the peer > protocol (but I assume not the tracker protocol) will actually > transfer the data. Is that correct? If so, the statement in the > charter "PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission > protocols" seems a bit contradictory. I guess maybe I am one of those > who felt that signalling meant "not carrying data". My understanding is that the peer protocol won't transfer any "media", just the information required to enable and schedule this transfer. Am I right? Cheers, --=20 Victor Pascual =C3=81vila From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Tue Jan 26 12:24:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F0128C0F1 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L0T9f51qiBGe for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw5.ericsson.se (mailgw5.ericsson.se [193.180.251.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CCD28C0DF for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:24:36 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb24-b7c64ae000005cb7-c9-4b5f4f8ec8e4 Received: from esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw5.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 0E.18.23735.E8F4F5B4; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:24:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw129.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.177]) by esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:24:45 +0100 Received: from [131.160.126.209] ([131.160.126.209]) by esealmw129.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:24:45 +0100 Message-ID: <4B5F4F8B.5040907@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:24:43 +0200 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David A. Bryan" References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> <8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 20:24:45.0209 (UTC) FILETIME=[995AC890:01CA9EC5] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:24:37 -0000 Hi, the peer protocol would handle the exchange of data chunks between peers. Whether the peer protocol will negotiate a connection that will carry those chunks between peers, or will carry the chunks inline in its own protocol messages was not clear at the BOF... if we already know, the charter text could say so. If this is for further study, the charter text could also say so... Cheers, Gonzalo David A. Bryan wrote: > Just to make sure there is no confusion, can you clarify this comment > a bit, as I'm still a bit confused! > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Gonzalo Camarillo > wrote: > >> At the last BOF, there were people who were confused by the term >> "signalling" protocol. They assumed that a signalling or control >> protocol would not carry data... but the protocol to be used between >> peers will actually transfer data chunks. We may want to clarify that is >> the case. > > I think what you are saying here is that you *do* think the peer > protocol (but I assume not the tracker protocol) will actually > transfer the data. Is that correct? If so, the statement in the > charter "PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission > protocols" seems a bit contradictory. I guess maybe I am one of those > who felt that signalling meant "not carrying data". > > Are you picturing that we do use the peer protocol itself to exchange > chunks in the off-line scenario, but that some existing streaming > media protocol would be used in the live streaming scenario? (or have > I just hopelessly mangled what you meant to say ;) ) > > If we do transfer the chunks in the peer protocol itself rather than > using some existing bulk transfer protocol (even if just the off-line > case), depending on the transport we then have the concerns > fragmentation etc., which I would assume would then be in-scope for > the peer protocol design? > > Just trying to get a handle on what you are thinking here (and see if > you and Lars are on the same page...). Thanks! > > David From davidbryan@gmail.com Tue Jan 26 12:36:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1ED28C10F for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:36:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cT9fe3Gcv9oU for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gx0-f228.google.com (mail-gx0-f228.google.com [209.85.217.228]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534AB28C0F2 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by gxk28 with SMTP id 28so4235958gxk.9 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:36:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=Q4DW+e5pUf9fcB3tM4/11jfg5vGOnqF9cLF6VfldyMk=; b=q0DFNXO787CvARonWC/D12aOsmSjEv3tr7880Jq9YLpRWm2TJh6idE+lsfpYV3KCuC ZGFBIuxa30gCfBJrGwrwtZjLYj0mNnyQYzr83Tmd5/CCUF0ufKVOQzOx2bD2bb5AIQeA ppkUPMXsPi6gkvC32K8iSJ1GOZmtJ8oOmD6u0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=v027OfDShhmFZG6q6n3MRFJZcSp0tjLWHtrOWJn/n1zfYitY8ziNT8xFGRIMb0WR0A NC9TjBtO+ABcsosUkw77dylPm/f2xKyQNe/scKbfd8pMcGcikF0TOeD2hk6wiPDMb8Sh +I0prDBq2pEiU/BFI4zmYGDl3qQuCR+o36pmo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: davidbryan@gmail.com Received: by 10.150.118.37 with SMTP id q37mr11222312ybc.322.1264538193960; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:36:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B5F4F8B.5040907@ericsson.com> References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> <8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> <4B5F4F8B.5040907@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:36:33 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: d42dd1383fe8178d Message-ID: <8b2769931001261236w1d7f9da9r21debc0d615d42d4@mail.gmail.com> From: "David A. Bryan" To: Gonzalo Camarillo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:36:27 -0000 Thanks, I appreciate the clarification. I'd say that reading the current charter text proposal from Lars as it stands now basically says you can't transfer inline (i.e., I'd interpret "signaling and control protocol" in para 3, and "Existing IETF and other standards will be used for the encoding and transmission of the media content between peers." in para 4 as implying that transport is being done with an existing protocol, not inline). Personally, I am fine with charter saying either "must negotiate a connection to be transmitted using another protocol" or "we may decide to send inline or negotiate a connection". I expect the best choice will be to use an existing protocol for the actual transmission of the data in both the off-line and live cases, but am ok if we still think that is an open question -- we would however need to refine the charter text in that case. (Interestingly, we are having a similar discussion over on the DECADE list about bulk data transmission protocol reuse...). David On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > Hi, > > the peer protocol would handle the exchange of data chunks between > peers. Whether the peer protocol will negotiate a connection that will > carry those chunks between peers, or will carry the chunks inline in its > own protocol messages was not clear at the BOF... if we already know, > the charter text could say so. If this is for further study, the charter > text could also say so... > > Cheers, > > Gonzalo > > > > David A. Bryan wrote: >> Just to make sure there is no confusion, can you clarify this comment >> a bit, as I'm still a bit confused! >> >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Gonzalo Camarillo >> wrote: >> >>> At the last BOF, there were people who were confused by the term >>> "signalling" protocol. They assumed that a signalling or control >>> protocol would not carry data... but the protocol to be used between >>> peers will actually transfer data chunks. We may want to clarify that is >>> the case. >> >> I think what you are saying here is that you *do* think the peer >> protocol (but I assume not the tracker protocol) will actually >> transfer the data. Is that correct? If so, the statement in the >> charter "PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission >> protocols" seems a bit contradictory. I guess maybe I am one of those >> who felt that signalling meant "not carrying data". >> >> Are you picturing that we do use the peer protocol itself to exchange >> chunks in the off-line scenario, but that some existing streaming >> media protocol would be used in the live streaming scenario? (or have >> I just hopelessly mangled what you meant to say ;) ) >> >> If we do transfer the chunks in the peer protocol itself rather than >> using some existing bulk transfer protocol (even if just the off-line >> case), depending on the transport we then have the concerns >> fragmentation etc., which I would assume would then be in-scope for >> the peer protocol design? >> >> Just trying to get a handle on what you are thinking here (and see if >> you and Lars are on the same page...). Thanks! >> >> David > > From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Jan 26 18:40:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228A03A690A for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:40:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.273 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBTmftPbq06Y for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD113A6997 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.172]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012710530570-6542 ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:53:05 +0800 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:37:38 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Gonzalo Camarillo" , "David A. Bryan" , "=?gb2312?B?VmljdG9yX1Bhc2N1YWxfw4F2aWxh?=" References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B -ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com><8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> <4B5F4F8B.5040907@ericsson.com> Message-ID: <201001271037378906051@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-27 10:53:05, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-27 10:40:58, Serialize complete at 2010-01-27 10:40:58 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon465675300863_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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score=-105.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RunLQzwg7GB7 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw5.ericsson.se (mailgw5.ericsson.se [193.180.251.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A505C3A690C for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:17:33 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb24-b7c64ae000005cb7-22-4b5fda8828a7 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw5.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id A9.F3.23735.88ADF5B4; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:17:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.174]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:17:44 +0100 Received: from [131.160.126.209] ([131.160.126.209]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:17:44 +0100 Message-ID: <4B5FDA88.2040705@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:17:44 +0200 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zhangyunfei References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B -ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com><8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> <4B5F4F8B.5040907@ericsson.com> <201001271037378906051@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201001271037378906051@chinamobile.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 06:17:44.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[70133960:01CA9F18] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: =?GB2312?B?VmljdG9yX1Bhc2N1YWw=?=, "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:17:35 -0000 Hi, > So I would propose to update the last sentence of Para 3 of latest > charter as follows: > The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of media data > availability between the peers.The real data transfer is probably done > by exisiting IETF protocols like UDP,TCP or RTP. > Any comments? something along those lines would work. > P.S.:Gonzalo,I agree with your suggestions on the privacy issue.I > think this may be a topic we can discuss in March meeting. Sure. > As for the real-time requirement, the current charter says: > The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming > data within the time constraints required by specific content items. Yes... additionally, we may want to say that some of those specific content items will have near real-time constraints. This point was considered important by some during the BOF since they wanted to make sure that the protocols will also be usable in near real-time situations. I think everybody on the list assumes that is indeed the case but having the charter say it explicitly would not hurt. Cheers, Gonzalo From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Jan 26 23:22:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010AD3A6A14 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:22:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.375, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LZaQajCHw-ro for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49DE23A68B0 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.172]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012715344850-14701 ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:34:48 +0800 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 15:19:18 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Gonzalo Camarillo" References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B -ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com><8b276993100126121 5n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> <4B5F4F8B.5040907@ericsson.com> <201001271037378906051@chinamobile.com> <4B5FDA88.2040705@ericsson.com> Message-ID: <201001271519187343892@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-27 15:34:48, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-27 15:22:43, Serialize complete at 2010-01-27 15:22:43 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon434388373156_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:22:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon434388373156_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Hi Gonzalo, > So I would propose to update the last sentence of Para 3 of latest > charter as follows: > The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of media data > availability between the peers.The real data transfer is probably done > by exisiting IETF protocols like UDP,TCP or RTP. > Any comments? something along those lines would work. > P.S.:Gonzalo,I agree with your suggestions on the privacy issue.I > think this may be a topic we can discuss in March meeting. Sure. > As for the real-time requirement, the current charter says: > The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming > data within the time constraints required by specific content items. Yes... additionally, we may want to say that some of those specific content items will have near real-time constraints. This point was considered important by some during the BOF since they wanted to make sure that the protocols will also be usable in near real-time situations. I think everybody on the list assumes that is indeed the case but having the charter say it explicitly would not hurt. Any good suggestions on the expression of the charter? 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ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375233A6A2D for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:43:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hElaR17EnIGe for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx06.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE90D3A68FD for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:43:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o0R9hmjB011545; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:44:05 +0200 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:43:52 +0200 Received: from mgw-sa01.ext.nokia.com ([147.243.1.47]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:43:51 +0200 Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-sa01.ext.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o0R9hoQj013608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:43:50 +0200 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-16-662893660; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:43:38 +0200 Message-Id: <87DD79AE-9EFB-46AE-98FA-804DDD1FC4EE@nokia.com> References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B-ADF2C2BAE587@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> To: Gonzalo Camarillo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [0.0.0.0]); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:43:44 +0200 (EET) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2010 09:43:51.0135 (UTC) FILETIME=[3B5A7EF0:01CA9F35] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:43:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail-16-662893660 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2010-1-26, at 20:59, Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > The charter needs to state that the WG will take into account = real-time > requirements. That is, we are not building a file sharing system but a > system that can handle real-time streams. The charter already says = that > live streaming is within scope. You may or may not want to further > stress this point. please propose text :-) > At the last BOF, there were people who were confused by the term > "signalling" protocol. They assumed that a signalling or control > protocol would not carry data... but the protocol to be used between > peers will actually transfer data chunks. We may want to clarify that = is > the case. I guess I was one of those people, and the charter text I sent was = written based on that assumption. If that was a misunderstanding and the = peer protocol does carry media data, we can change that text. But it = needs to be clear that the peer protocol is not a media streaming = protocol, just a data transfer protocol. In other words, it doesn't do = all that RTP does. > Also at the last BOF, there was a discussion on whether or not the WG > should address privacy issues. Privacy in terms of who is = participating > in the system and who is watching a given stream. Some people (e.g., > Dave Oran) thought this still is a research issue and, thus, should be > out of scope. Other people thought the WG should try and tackle it > because it is an important property... if people cannot agree on this, > it may be worthwhile letting those who believe it is feasible to = tackle > privacy issues within the WG start working on a model to provide this > type of privacy and check at some point if that model can really = resolve > the privacy issues at hand. That seems like a reasonable approach. I'm skeptical too that all = aspects of the privacy issue are solvable, but the WG can try - we just = need to be clear that if that support appears like it will add too much = complexity, we're dropping it. 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nujce9Vjiy9b for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 03:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from szxga02-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5DC3A6A1E for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 03:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (szxga02-in [172.24.2.6]) by szxga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KWW008E9LFA0B@szxga02-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:33:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KWW002JHLFAM5@szxga02-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:33:10 +0800 (CST) Received: from [172.24.1.3] (Forwarded-For: [156.106.225.13]) by szxmc04-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:33:10 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 12:33:10 +0100 From: zongning 63316 In-reply-to: <201001271037378906051@chinamobile.com> To: zhangyunfei Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: zh-CN Priority: normal References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com> <"237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B -ADF2C2BAE587"@nokia.com> <4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com> <8b2769931001261215n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com> <4B5F4F8B.5040907@ericsson.com> <201001271037378906051@chinamobile.com> Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:33:09 -0000 Hi=2C I agree with what Yunfei has proposed=2C that is=2C =22The peer protocol = controls the advertising and exchane of media data availablility between = peers=22 which means neither data chunk=2C nor media streaming between pe= ers=2E However=2C I would suggest that PPSP consider the gap between =22advertis= ing the media data availability between peers=22 and =22real data transfe= r=22=2C because there should be a signalling protocol between peers to ne= gotiate connections=2E I would propose that we need at least some gap ana= lysis to see if some existing protocols (e=2Eg=2E RTSP/SDP) fits the scen= arios/requirements of PPSP and thus are reused as connection negotiation = following PPSP peer prot ocol=2C or new signalling protocol is required as part of PPSP peer proto= col to do connection negotiation=2E My 2 cents=2C BR=2C Ning Zong ----- =D4=AD=D3=CA=BC=FE ----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A zhangyunfei =3Czhangyunfei=40chinamobile=2Ecom=3E =C8=D5=C6=DA=3A =D0=C7=C6=DA=C8=FD=2C =D2=BB=D4=C2 27=C8=D5=2C 2010 =C9=CF= =CE=E73=3A41 =D6=F7=CC=E2=3A Re=3A =5Bppsp=5D Latest updated version of PPSP charter =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=3A Gonzalo Camarillo =3CGonzalo=2ECamarillo=40ericsson= =2Ecom=3E=2C =22David A=2E Bryan=22 =3Cdbryan=40ethernot=2Eorg=3E=2CVicto= r=5FPascual=5F=C3=81vila =3Cvictor=2Epascual=2Eavila=40gmail=2Ecom=3E =B3=AD=CB=CD=3A =22ppsp=40ietf=2Eorg=22 =3Cppsp=40ietf=2Eorg=3E =3E Hi=2C =3E In my understanding=2Cthe peer protocol is exchanging the = =3E information of what peers have=2Crather than the real data = =3E transferring=2EThe real data transfer is probably done by exisiting = =3E IETF protocols like UDP=2CTCP or RTP=2E =3E So I would propose to update the last sentence of Para 3 of = =3E latest charter as follows=3A =3E The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of = =3E media data availability between the peers=2EThe real data transfer = =3E is probably done by exisiting IETF protocols like UDP=2CTCP or RTP=2E= =3E Any comments=3F =3E P=2ES=2E=3AGonzalo=2CI agree with your suggestions on the privacy = =3E issue=2EI think this may be a topic we can discuss in March meeting=2E= =3E As for the real-time requirement=2C the current charter = =3E says=3A The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming =3E data within the time constraints required by specific content items=2E= =3E = =3E BR =3E Yunfei =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E zhangyunfei =3E 2010-01-27 =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Gonzalo Camarillo =3E =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2010-01-27 04=3A37=3A14 =3E =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A=2E Bryan =3E =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp=40ietf=2Eorg =3E =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re=3A =5Bppsp=5D Latest updated version of PPSP ch= arter =3E = =3E Hi=2C =3E = =3E the peer protocol would handle the exchange of data = =3E chunks between =3E peers=2E Whether the peer protocol will negotiate a = =3E connection that will =3E carry those chunks between peers=2C or will carry the = =3E chunks inline in its =3E own protocol messages was not clear at the BOF=2E=2E=2E if = we = =3E already know=2C =3E the charter text could say so=2E If this is for further = =3E study=2C the charter =3E text could also say so=2E=2E=2E =3E = =3E Cheers=2C =3E = =3E Gonzalo =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E David A=2E Bryan wrote=3A =3E =3E Just to make sure there is no confusion=2C can you = =3E clarify this comment =3E =3E a bit=2C as I=27m still a bit confused! =3E =3E = =3E =3E On Tue=2C Jan 26=2C 2010 at 1=3A59 PM=2C Gonzalo Camari= llo =3E =3E =3CGonzalo=2ECamarillo=40ericsson=2Ecom =3E wrote=3A =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E At the last BOF=2C there were people who were confu= sed = =3E by the term =3E =3E =3E =22signalling=22 protocol=2E They assumed that a signa= lling = =3E or control =3E =3E =3E protocol would not carry data=2E=2E=2E but the protoc= ol to = =3E be used between =3E =3E =3E peers will actually transfer data chunks=2E We may w= ant = =3E to clarify that is =3E =3E =3E the case=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E I think what you are saying here is that you *do* = =3E think the peer =3E =3E protocol (but I assume not the tracker protocol) will = =3E actually=3E transfer the data=2E Is that correct=3F If so=2C = the = =3E statement in the =3E =3E charter =22PPSP is not chartered to work on media = =3E transmission=3E protocols=22 seems a bit contradictory=2E I gu= ess = =3E maybe I am one of those =3E =3E who felt that signalling meant =22not carrying data=22=2E= =3E =3E = =3E =3E Are you picturing that we do use the peer protocol = =3E itself to exchange =3E =3E chunks in the off-line scenario=2C but that some existin= g = =3E streaming =3E =3E media protocol would be used in the live streaming = =3E scenario=3F (or have =3E =3E I just hopelessly mangled what you meant to say =3B) )= =3E =3E = =3E =3E If we do transfer the chunks in the peer protocol = =3E itself rather than =3E =3E using some existing bulk transfer protocol (even if = =3E just the off-line =3E =3E case)=2C depending on the transport we then have the = =3E concerns=3E fragmentation etc=2E=2C which I would assume would= = =3E then be in-scope for =3E =3E the peer protocol design=3F =3E =3E = =3E =3E Just trying to get a handle on what you are thinking = =3E here (and see if =3E =3E you and Lars are on the same page=2E=2E=2E)=2E Thanks! =3E =3E = =3E =3E David =3E = =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F =3E ppsp mailing list =3E ppsp=40ietf=2Eorg =3E https=3A//www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =3E From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Jan 27 17:33:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECA128C0E6 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:33:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.412 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.412 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.778, BAYES_00=-2.599, CN_BODY_35=0.339, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfbWMgUiyLUJ for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007433A6853 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.4.93]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010012809454511-3551 ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:45:45 +0800 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:30:12 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "zongning 63316" References: <201001211119456560654@chinamobile.com><"237ECA7E-3130-4DE7-A69B -ADF2C2BAE587"@nokia.com><4B5F3B91.7090700@ericsson.com><8b276993100126121 5n154d6d39hbc4109f877db8f03@mail.gmail.com><4B5F4F8B.5040907@ericsson.com> <201001271037378906051@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201001280930126252757@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-28 09:45:45, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-01-28 09:33:33, Serialize complete at 2010-01-28 09:33:33 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon351550466175_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:33:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon351550466175_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" QWdyZWUuSnVzdCBsaWtlIEdvbnphbG8ncyBwcm9wb3NhbCBvbiBwcml2YWN5IGlzc3VlcywgdGhl IGdhcCBhbmFseXNpcyBtYXkgYmUgdXNlZnVsIGlmIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBzb21lIHdyaXR0ZW4gbWF0 ZXJpYWxzIHRvIHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QvbWVldGluZ3MuDQoNCkJSDQpZdW5mZWkNCg0KDQoN Cg0Kemhhbmd5dW5mZWkNCjIwMTAtMDEtMjgNCg0KDQoNCreivP7Iy6O6IHpvbmduaW5nIDYzMzE2 DQq3osvNyrG85KO6IDIwMTAtMDEtMjcgMTk6NDU6MzANCsrVvP7Iy6O6IHpoYW5neXVuZmVpDQqz rcvNo7ogR29uemFsbyBDYW1hcmlsbG87IERhdmlkIEEuIEJyeWFuOyBWaWN0b3JfUGFzY3VhbF/D gXZpbGE7IHBwc3BAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOKjuiBSZTogUmU6IFtwcHNwXSBMYXRlc3QgdXBkYXRl ZCB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIFBQU1AgY2hhcnRlcg0KDQpIaSwNCg0KSSAgYWdyZWUgIHdpdGggIHdoYXQg 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s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=x4BDwCK0TkTFcQbrwZ01cOrqui4Y1Rwl+YPmBBdg5eg=; b=mxaq+nCtDTEMWGgnYeKwJhe4fhue1jgv4wdgVRCQRmo9twK3v73NZaSUQyAoxPCewo YmB3TIWu9O5xyvtMR9bZL7WUnnoVF7rirdadi5EopOofn2W4YoalCN6YCXjVwPK5i0Ut zVQGyI1FGPNmyxK3Aqvxnk9gMAwq0kdRJvyKw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=e3rqhW461MSWkgMWseTRbeQMAL7JUWakbKJynH+YmCp38W4A6EtQtTLJpZ0F3ptjMO rCiAVr5xNNaynBnbbt8l6CJ+rzxAO4V9n09TmBWQMLoGINUDX+9+SuMneJa9F7/z/CyH /oHFHVuloD43XC0654USRB71TB6C0t4AupZH0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.35.11 with SMTP id n11mr6600391bkd.4.1264674276953; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 02:24:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 11:24:36 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp Digest, Vol 16, Issue 24 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:24:25 -0000 Hi all, I agree with Gonzalo, Yunfei and Ning comments. ["The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchane of media data availablility between peers" which means neither data chunk, nor media streaming between peers] --> +1 [gap analysisi] --> +1 BR, Alberto. > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:30:12 +0800 > From: "zhangyunfei" > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter > To: "zongning 63316" > Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" > Message-ID: <201001280930126252757@chinamobile.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"gb2312" > > Agree.Just like Gonzalo's proposal on privacy issues, the gap analysis ma= y be useful if there are some written materials to the mailing list/meeting= s. > > BR > Yunfei > > > > > zhangyunfei > 2010-01-28 > > > > ???? zongning 63316 > ????? 2010-01-27 19:45:30 > ???? zhangyunfei > ??? Gonzalo Camarillo; David A. Bryan; Victor_Pascual_?vila; ppsp@ietf.or= g > ??? Re: Re: [ppsp] Latest updated version of PPSP charter > > Hi, > > I =A0agree =A0with =A0what =A0Yunfei =A0has =A0proposed, =A0that =A0is, = =A0"The =A0peer =A0protocol =A0controls =A0the =A0advertising =A0and =A0exc= hane =A0of =A0media =A0data =A0availablility =A0between =A0peers" =A0which = =A0means =A0neither =A0data =A0chunk, =A0nor =A0media =A0streaming =A0betwe= en =A0peers. > However, =A0I =A0would =A0suggest =A0that =A0PPSP =A0consider =A0the =A0g= ap =A0between =A0"advertising =A0the =A0media =A0data =A0availability =A0be= tween =A0peers" =A0and =A0"real =A0data =A0transfer", =A0because =A0there = =A0should =A0be =A0a =A0signalling =A0protocol =A0between =A0peers =A0to = =A0negotiate =A0connections. =A0I =A0would =A0propose =A0that =A0we =A0need= =A0at =A0least =A0some =A0gap =A0analysis =A0to =A0see =A0if =A0some =A0ex= isting =A0protocols =A0(e.g. =A0RTSP/SDP) =A0fits =A0the =A0scenarios/requi= rements =A0of =A0PPSP =A0and =A0thus =A0are =A0reused =A0as =A0connection = =A0negotiation =A0following =A0PPSP =A0peer =A0prot > ocol, =A0or =A0new =A0signalling =A0protocol =A0is =A0required =A0as =A0p= art =A0of =A0PPSP =A0peer =A0protocol =A0to =A0do =A0connection =A0negotiat= ion. > > My =A02 =A0cents, > > BR, > Ning =A0Zong > > > ----- =A0??? =A0----- > ???: =A0zhangyunfei =A0 > ??: =A0???, =A0?? =A027?, =A02010 =A0??3:41 > ??: =A0Re: =A0[ppsp] =A0Latest =A0updated =A0version =A0of =A0PPSP =A0cha= rter > ???: =A0Gonzalo =A0Camarillo =A0 , =A0"D= avid =A0A. =A0Bryan" =A0 ,Victor_Pascual_?vila =A0 > ??: =A0"ppsp@ietf.org" =A0 > >> =A0Hi, >> =A0 =A0 =A0In =A0my =A0understanding,the =A0peer =A0protocol =A0is =A0ex= changing =A0the >> =A0information =A0of =A0what =A0peers =A0have,rather =A0than =A0the =A0r= eal =A0data >> =A0transferring.The =A0real =A0data =A0transfer =A0is =A0probably =A0don= e =A0by =A0exisiting >> =A0IETF =A0protocols =A0like =A0UDP,TCP =A0or =A0RTP. >> =A0 =A0 =A0So =A0I =A0would =A0propose =A0to =A0update =A0the =A0last = =A0sentence =A0of =A0Para =A03 =A0of >> =A0latest =A0charter =A0as =A0follows: >> =A0 =A0 =A0The =A0peer =A0protocol =A0controls =A0the =A0advertising =A0= and =A0exchange =A0of >> =A0media =A0data =A0availability =A0between =A0the =A0peers.The =A0real = =A0data =A0transfer >> =A0is =A0probably =A0done =A0by =A0exisiting =A0IETF =A0protocols =A0lik= e =A0UDP,TCP =A0or =A0RTP. >> =A0 =A0 =A0Any =A0comments? >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0P.S.:Gonzalo,I =A0agree =A0with =A0your =A0suggestions = =A0on =A0the =A0privacy >> =A0issue.I =A0think =A0this =A0may =A0be =A0a =A0topic =A0we =A0can =A0d= iscuss =A0in =A0March =A0meeting. >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0As =A0for =A0the =A0real-time= =A0requirement, =A0the =A0current =A0charter >> =A0says: =A0The =A0two =A0protocols =A0enable =A0peers =A0to =A0receive = =A0streaming >> =A0data =A0within =A0the =A0time =A0constraints =A0required =A0by =A0spe= cific =A0content =A0items. >> >> =A0BR >> =A0Yunfei >> >> >> >> >> =A0zhangyunfei >> =A02010-01-27 >> >> >> >> =A0???? =A0Gonzalo =A0Camarillo >> =A0????? =A02010-01-27 =A004:37:14 >> =A0???? =A0David =A0A. =A0Bryan >> =A0??? =A0ppsp@ietf.org >> =A0??? =A0Re: =A0[ppsp] =A0Latest =A0updated =A0version =A0of =A0PPSP = =A0charter >> >> =A0Hi, >> >> =A0the =A0 =A0peer =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0would =A0 =A0handle =A0 =A0the= =A0 =A0exchange =A0 =A0of =A0 =A0data >> =A0chunks =A0 =A0between >> =A0peers. =A0 =A0Whether =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0peer =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0w= ill =A0 =A0negotiate =A0 =A0a >> =A0connection =A0 =A0that =A0 =A0will >> =A0carry =A0 =A0those =A0 =A0chunks =A0 =A0between =A0 =A0peers, =A0 =A0= or =A0 =A0will =A0 =A0carry =A0 =A0the >> =A0chunks =A0 =A0inline =A0 =A0in =A0 =A0its >> =A0own =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0messages =A0 =A0was =A0 =A0not =A0 =A0clea= r =A0 =A0at =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0BOF... =A0 =A0if =A0 =A0we >> =A0already =A0 =A0know, >> =A0the =A0 =A0charter =A0 =A0text =A0 =A0could =A0 =A0say =A0 =A0so. =A0= =A0If =A0 =A0this =A0 =A0is =A0 =A0for =A0 =A0further >> =A0study, =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0charter >> =A0text =A0 =A0could =A0 =A0also =A0 =A0say =A0 =A0so... >> >> =A0Cheers, >> >> =A0Gonzalo >> >> >> >> =A0David =A0 =A0A. =A0 =A0Bryan =A0 =A0wrote: >> =A0 > =A0 =A0Just =A0 =A0to =A0 =A0make =A0 =A0sure =A0 =A0there =A0 =A0= is =A0 =A0no =A0 =A0confusion, =A0 =A0can =A0 =A0you >> =A0clarify =A0 =A0this =A0 =A0comment >> =A0 > =A0 =A0a =A0 =A0bit, =A0 =A0as =A0 =A0I'm =A0 =A0still =A0 =A0a = =A0 =A0bit =A0 =A0confused! >> =A0 > >> =A0 > =A0 =A0On =A0 =A0Tue, =A0 =A0Jan =A0 =A026, =A0 =A02010 =A0 =A0at = =A0 =A01:59 =A0 =A0PM, =A0 =A0Gonzalo =A0 =A0Camarillo >> =A0 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0wrote: >> =A0 > >> =A0 > =A0 > =A0 =A0At =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0last =A0 =A0BOF, =A0 =A0there = =A0 =A0were =A0 =A0people =A0 =A0who =A0 =A0were =A0 =A0confused >> =A0by =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0term >> =A0 > =A0 > =A0 =A0"signalling" =A0 =A0protocol. =A0 =A0They =A0 =A0assu= med =A0 =A0that =A0 =A0a =A0 =A0signalling >> =A0or =A0 =A0control >> =A0 > =A0 > =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0would =A0 =A0not =A0 =A0carry =A0 =A0= data... =A0 =A0but =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0to >> =A0be =A0 =A0used =A0 =A0between >> =A0 > =A0 > =A0 =A0peers =A0 =A0will =A0 =A0actually =A0 =A0transfer =A0= =A0data =A0 =A0chunks. =A0 =A0We =A0 =A0may =A0 =A0want >> =A0to =A0 =A0clarify =A0 =A0that =A0 =A0is >> =A0 > =A0 > =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0case. >> =A0 > >> =A0 > =A0 =A0I =A0 =A0think =A0 =A0what =A0 =A0you =A0 =A0are =A0 =A0say= ing =A0 =A0here =A0 =A0is =A0 =A0that =A0 =A0you =A0 =A0*do* >> =A0think =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0peer >> =A0 > =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0(but =A0 =A0I =A0 =A0assume =A0 =A0not =A0 = =A0the =A0 =A0tracker =A0 =A0protocol) =A0 =A0will >> =A0actually > =A0 =A0transfer =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0data. =A0 =A0Is =A0 =A0t= hat =A0 =A0correct? =A0 =A0If =A0 =A0so, =A0 =A0the >> =A0statement =A0 =A0in =A0 =A0the >> =A0 > =A0 =A0charter =A0 =A0"PPSP =A0 =A0is =A0 =A0not =A0 =A0chartered = =A0 =A0to =A0 =A0work =A0 =A0on =A0 =A0media >> =A0transmission > =A0 =A0protocols" =A0 =A0seems =A0 =A0a =A0 =A0bit =A0= =A0contradictory. =A0 =A0I =A0 =A0guess >> =A0maybe =A0 =A0I =A0 =A0am =A0 =A0one =A0 =A0of =A0 =A0those >> =A0 > =A0 =A0who =A0 =A0felt =A0 =A0that =A0 =A0signalling =A0 =A0meant = =A0 =A0"not =A0 =A0carrying =A0 =A0data". >> =A0 > >> =A0 > =A0 =A0Are =A0 =A0you =A0 =A0picturing =A0 =A0that =A0 =A0we =A0 = =A0do =A0 =A0use =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0peer =A0 =A0protocol >> =A0itself =A0 =A0to =A0 =A0exchange >> =A0 > =A0 =A0chunks =A0 =A0in =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0off-line =A0 =A0scenario= , =A0 =A0but =A0 =A0that =A0 =A0some =A0 =A0existing >> =A0streaming >> =A0 > =A0 =A0media =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0would =A0 =A0be =A0 =A0used = =A0 =A0in =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0live =A0 =A0streaming >> =A0scenario? =A0 =A0(or =A0 =A0have >> =A0 > =A0 =A0I =A0 =A0just =A0 =A0hopelessly =A0 =A0mangled =A0 =A0what = =A0 =A0you =A0 =A0meant =A0 =A0to =A0 =A0say =A0 =A0;) =A0 =A0) >> =A0 > >> =A0 > =A0 =A0If =A0 =A0we =A0 =A0do =A0 =A0transfer =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0ch= unks =A0 =A0in =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0peer =A0 =A0protocol >> =A0itself =A0 =A0rather =A0 =A0than >> =A0 > =A0 =A0using =A0 =A0some =A0 =A0existing =A0 =A0bulk =A0 =A0transf= er =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0(even =A0 =A0if >> =A0just =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0off-line >> =A0 > =A0 =A0case), =A0 =A0depending =A0 =A0on =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0transpo= rt =A0 =A0we =A0 =A0then =A0 =A0have =A0 =A0the >> =A0concerns > =A0 =A0fragmentation =A0 =A0etc., =A0 =A0which =A0 =A0I = =A0 =A0would =A0 =A0assume =A0 =A0would >> =A0then =A0 =A0be =A0 =A0in-scope =A0 =A0for >> =A0 > =A0 =A0the =A0 =A0peer =A0 =A0protocol =A0 =A0design? >> =A0 > >> =A0 > =A0 =A0Just =A0 =A0trying =A0 =A0to =A0 =A0get =A0 =A0a =A0 =A0han= dle =A0 =A0on =A0 =A0what =A0 =A0you =A0 =A0are =A0 =A0thinking >> =A0here =A0 =A0(and =A0 =A0see =A0 =A0if >> =A0 > =A0 =A0you =A0 =A0and =A0 =A0Lars =A0 =A0are =A0 =A0on =A0 =A0the = =A0 =A0same =A0 =A0page...). =A0 =A0Thanks! >> =A0 > >> =A0 > =A0 =A0David >> >> =A0_______________________________________________ >> =A0ppsp =A0 =A0mailing =A0 =A0list >> =A0ppsp@ietf.org >> =A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > End of ppsp Digest, Vol 16, Issue 24 > ************************************ > --=20 Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela