Diff: ppsp.txt - ppsp-final.txt

> I was just trying &= nbsp;to=20 put into the charter the direction &nbs= p;I=20 thought the group wanted to go or= =20 at least surface the issues so we= =20 could feedback of the form "yep, = looks=20 good" or "nope, we want distributed".=20 Obviously I'm a bit of a fan &nbs= p;of=20 distributed approaches.

Given this, and the foll= owup=20 Ning had, I think things became=20 more

crisp than my original c= omment,=20 but just to be clear, I think=20 what I

am getting at is that &n= bsp;I=20 see the tracker, as Ning mentioned, &nb= sp;as=20 a

logical function. It could &nb= sp;be=20 implemented in a centralized way=20 (and

likely would be), or cou= ld=20 actually use a DHT in the backgro= und.=20 It

may be that we don't=20 really need to consider that in t= he=20 design of the

protocol to query the "t= racker"=20 (whatever that may be), and I

certainly don't want to = muddy=20 things by insisting it be=20 distributed.

I'd personally suggest some=20 wording akin to what we did in=20 P2PSIP,

where we crafted a DHT=20 for SIP but tried not to break=20 it for other

possible applications. So here= ,=20 maybe we say we are building for = a

centralized tracker, but will = try to consider the problem of=20 a

distributed, and make sure &nb= sp;the=20 protocol for the logical process=20 of

tracker calls doesn't do=20 something that explicitly breaks=20 distributed

functionality later.

I definitely don't want = to=20 give the IESG (or anyone else, re= ally)=20 the

impression that there is = ;a=20 big group of us looking to do &nb= sp;a=20 distributed

tracker up front. As far= =20 as I know, there isn't.

[Yunfei]I agree with you on the understanding of= the=20 tracker protocol.This is just

a functional = protocol=20 independent of its implementation on centralized way or=20 distribution.

Yep. Fully agree, particularly= =20 about hacking rather than

growing...(i.e., SIP easier th= an=20 RTSP. At least in my opinion,=20 I'd

agree.)

One wrinkle I see is &nb= sp;that=20 while these look good for real-time,=20 it

isn't quite clear to me = that SIP (or actually even RTP on= =20 the

transport side) is right = ;in=20 the time-shifted context. If I=20 am

retrieving the file then=20 playing locally ala Bit-Torrent, it=20 seems

possible that you would = use=20 a bulk transfer block-by-block in=20 that

scenario and assemble and &nbs= p;play=20 locally, rather than stream from=20 the

peer that has it as &nbs= p;would=20 be the case in real-time. The mor= e=20 I've dug

into this in the last &n= bsp;few=20 months, the more the real-time=20 and

time-shifted cases differ for = the actions after you contact=20 the

tracker.

[Yunfei]You are right.What's more,even in the re= al-time=20 p2p streaming context, some

implemenations like PPLive use just a=20 block-by-block transfer like simple UDP*WITHOUT*

explicit timing signaling, but the scheduling=20 algorithms(which is out of scope of PPSP)ensure

the real-time requirements according to our=20 measurments. Of course I agree that RTP can be

good candidate in actual data transfer.

One point I want to say is that peer protocol is= =20 initially intended to do the following task:

chunk availability exchange between peers.Suppos= e peer=20 A and peer B, A asked B,hey, which specific

chunk do you have(pre-condition:A and B have the= same=20 chunk slicing regulation(common structure).

The task of how to set up the connections b= etween=20 peer A and peer B is out of our current scope.I remember

that Ning had raised the question that= there=20 is a gap between peer protocol and the real data transfer in the

mailing list and we got consensus in this=20 point.

Yunfei

zhangyunfei=

2010-03-18

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A.=20 Bryan

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2010-03-16 09:02:37

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen=20 Jennings

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Charter=20 Proposal

So just a few little=20 followup points, mostly because I think= =20 I was a

bit unclear about my com= ment=20 about distributed trackers, inline...

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 &nb= sp;at=20 12:26 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.c= om=20 > wrote:

>

> On Mar 13, 2010, &n= bsp;at=20 8:22 AM, David A. Bryan wrote:
>

> > So in general = I=20 think there are a lot of good=20 comments here, and

> > thanks for sending=20 things to the list. A few things = I had comments on

> > inline...

> >

> > On Sat, Mar 13= ,=20 2010 at 9:33 AM, Cullen Jennings = =20 <fluffy@cisco.com > wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > The PPSP = ;could=20 easily be one of these groups wer= e=20 we spend the first few

> > > years trying &= nbsp;to=20 chooses which protocol to start with=20 in various

> > > places. That=20 would just remove the will to do = anything in the group. I

> > > have been=20 lurking and watching this work from=20 the beginning and it seems

> > > like there &nb= sp;are=20 probably many things that most the=20 participants agree to

> > > that we = could=20 just nail down in the charter. = =A0Doing=20 so would help get

> > > the work = ;done=20 faster and provide others a clear = ;idea=20 that had not been

> > > been participa= ting=20 a much clearer idea of what this = work is about.

> > >

> > > For=20 example:

> > >

> > > Centralized or= =20 distributed trackers. My belief is that= =20 most the folks

> > > want to = do=20 a centralized tracker. On a side = note,=20 I think they would be

> > > hard to = do=20 a distributed one before a centralized = as centralized is much

> > > easier. The=20 obvious protocol to use for a=20 centralized one is to add the
> > > needed extensi= ons=20 to the HTTP based version of=20 bittorrent tracker

> > > protocol. If=20 they want to do a distributed one= ,=20 RELOAD would meet the

> > > needs and &nbs= p;at=20 least be worth looking at.

> >

> > I'm a bit conf= used=20 about why you want to exclude=20 distributed trackers.

> > Most of the=20 information that would be exchanged -- = i.e. the maps of

> > chunks etc -- = are=20 going to be the same between the = two. I am still

> > trying to get = my=20 head around where the "edge" is h= ere,=20 but from

> > hacking at ideas &nb= sp;a=20 bit, it seems to me that the=20 tracker protocol might

> > have two parts:=20 query/place information from the peers = to=20 the tracker,

> > and information betw= een=20 trackers. If the separation is clean,=20 it might

> > be possible to = ;only=20 focus on the part between peers/tracker= s=20 and not

> > consider distributed=20 trackers, but otherwise I think in=20 protocol

> > design we should &nb= sp;at=20 least consider it...seems like a bad=20 idea to

> > design a P2P p= rotocol=20 that neglects P2P at a different = level=20 (i.e.,

> > between trackers)
>

> I was just trying &= nbsp;to=20 put into the charter the direction &nbs= p;I=20 thought the group wanted to go or= =20 at least surface the issues so we= =20 could feedback of the form "yep, = looks=20 good" or "nope, we want distributed".=20 Obviously I'm a bit of a fan &nbs= p;of=20 distributed approaches.

Given this, and the foll= owup=20 Ning had, I think things became=20 more

crisp than my original c= omment,=20 but just to be clear, I think=20 what I

am getting at is that &n= bsp;I=20 see the tracker, as Ning mentioned, &nb= sp;as=20 a

logical function. It could &nb= sp;be=20 implemented in a centralized way=20 (and

likely would be), or cou= ld=20 actually use a DHT in the backgro= und.=20 It

may be that we don't=20 really need to consider that in t= he=20 design of the

protocol to query the "t= racker"=20 (whatever that may be), and I
certainly don't want to = muddy=20 things by insisting it be=20 distributed.

I'd personally suggest some=20 wording akin to what we did in=20 P2PSIP,

where we crafted a DHT=20 for SIP but tried not to break=20 it for other

possible applications. So here= ,=20 maybe we say we are building for = a

centralized tracker, but will = try to consider the problem of=20 a

distributed, and make sure &nb= sp;the=20 protocol for the logical process=20 of

tracker calls doesn't do=20 something that explicitly breaks=20 distributed

functionality later.

I definitely don't want = to=20 give the IESG (or anyone else, re= ally)=20 the

impression that there is = ;a=20 big group of us looking to do &nb= sp;a=20 distributed

tracker up front. As far= =20 as I know, there isn't.

[Yunfei]I agree with you on the understanding of= the=20 tracker protocol.This is just

a functional = protocol=20 independent of its implementation on centralized way or=20 distribution.

>

> >

> > > Similarly for the media = transfer, I suspect that many people=20 would be

> > > happy with RTP. It's=20 hard to imagine anything else given=20 the end goal

> > > for this. I guess = one=20 could argue for a new protocol or= =20 a protocol that

> > > transferred data tunneled &nbs= p;in=20 the peer signaling protocol.

> >

> > Absolutely agree. Devising new=20 mechanisms for media transport seems

> > way out of scope to me.<= /DIV>
> >

> > > The peer signing protoco= l=20 needs to be able to set up = the=20 RTP sessions

> > > and work thought NATs.=20 I think the NAT traversal scheme = will=20 end up

> > > being ICE or something=20 that more or less amounts to ICE = with no TURN

> > > option given the deploym= ent=20 models. Both RTSP and SIP are=20 candidates

> > > here. In some ways = ;at=20 first glance, RTSP might seem simpler. = But a bunch

> > > of that simplicity comes= =20 from the model of it being deploy= ed=20 on server

> > > all clients can easily=20 reach without nat nightmares and less
> > > negotiation. Much of SIP= =20 complexity comes form too many=20 intermediaries

> > > and forking which would = not apply in this case. =A0We wil= l=20 have to add a

> > > bunch to RTSP to g= et=20 it to work or subtract some SIP=20 to get it to

> > > work. Not an easy = call=20 and not a call that the WG = is=20 in a great position

> > > to sort out. I'd l= ove=20 to hear others thought on it.

> > >

> > > The alternative to the=20 RTSP/SIP approach is to replace the=20 signaling and

> > > SDP with a capabilities = something more like the Advertisement /= =20 Proposal

> > > architecture the Jon and= =20 I have been discussion (See

> > > draft-peterson-sipcore-advprop ).
> >

> > Not quite as clear to me= =20 here, but I mostly agree. Definitely=20 need to

> > negotiate streams, and need to= =20 traverse NATs. SIP seems like using=20 a

> > fighter plane to kill a = fly=20 here, but may very well turn out = that many

> > of the capabilities end up=20 being needed once we get into it.= =20 The

> > problem is if the peers = are=20 speaking SIP, aren't they expected to=20 have

> > the full SIP capabilities. We = seem to need a SIP-Lite...(and yes,=20 I

> > know that has been discussed=20 oh, once or twice before, but her= e=20 it

> > would be for devices with=20 distinctly different applications)

>

> Right - for example, I see=20 no need for forking in one uses=20 SIP which greatly the use of SIP.= =20 If the the plan it to simplify=20 SIP in this way, we probably need= =20 to express that in the charter. = =A0My=20 view on using SIP is this work=20 would only need a subset of it.=20 However if we use RTSP, we need=20 to add a bunch in RTSP. Typically= =20 cutting away stuff is faster than=20 growing new stuff but that is not= =20 always true. Either could be made = ;to=20 work. So could something new.

Yep. Fully agree, particularly= =20 about hacking rather than

growing...(i.e., SIP easier th= an=20 RTSP. At least in my opinion,=20 I'd

agree.)

One wrinkle I see is &nb= sp;that=20 while these look good for real-time,=20 it

isn't quite clear to me = that SIP (or actually even RTP on= =20 the

transport side) is right = ;in=20 the time-shifted context. If I=20 am

retrieving the file then=20 playing locally ala Bit-Torrent, it=20 seems

possible that you would = use=20 a bulk transfer block-by-block in=20 that

scenario and assemble and &nbs= p;play=20 locally, rather than stream from=20 the

peer that has it as &nbs= p;would=20 be the case in real-time. The mor= e=20 I've dug

into this in the last &n= bsp;few=20 months, the more the real-time=20 and

time-shifted cases differ for = the actions after you contact=20 the

tracker.

[Yunfei]You are right.What's more,even in the re= al-time=20 p2p streaming context, some

implemenations like PPLive use just a=20 block-by-block transfer like simple UDP*WITHOUT*

explicit timing signaling, but the scheduling=20 algorithms(which is out of scope of PPSP)ensure

the real-time requirements according to our=20 measurments. Of course I agree that RTP can be

good candidate in actual data transfer.
One point I want to say is that peer protocol is= =20 initially intended to do the following task:

chunk availability exchange between peers.Suppos= e peer=20 A and peer B, A asked B,hey, which specific

chunk do you have(pre-condition:A and B have the= same=20 chunk slicing regulation(common structure).

The task of how to set up the connections b= etween=20 peer A and peer B is out of our current scope.I remember

that Ning had raised the question that= there=20 is a gap between peer protocol and the real data transfer in the
mailing list and we got consensus in this=20 point.

> > My first take on the pro= posed=20 charter below is that I like=20 seeing

> > things get more concrete, but = it has two problems from my=20 perspective:

> >

> > I agree bit-torrent is a = ;very=20 good model and we should be looki= ng=20 at

> > it, but the survey work = is=20 also bringing in work from some o= ther=20 very

> > widely deployed solutions (PPLive,=20 for example), and I'm personally a

> > bit reluctant to just say=20 bit-torrent wins.

>

>

>

> >

> > I'm aware that PPLive and=20 Bit-Torrent address slightly different

> > problems, which is actually my= =20 biggest concern with the charter --
> > still not clear that the = ;live=20 and time-shifted content really call=20 for

> > the same protocol or share &nb= sp;as=20 much as might be thought in=20 common.

> > Particularly for the real-time=20 streaming, I'm not at all sure

> > Bit-Torrent is the right choic= e.=20 (although I can see using a=20 tracker

> > to find candidate peers and=20 establishing live sessions between

> > them...so it's possible) =A0I'd &nbs= p;rather=20 wait just a little bit for the
> > survey document to evolve to=20 make that call, and get more=20 visibility

> > into if one protocol can = ;be=20 used for both streaming and=20 time-shifted

> > content. That's part of the=20 motivation for hacking together some

> > strawman work on the tracker=20 as well -- let's see what hard=20 problems

> > we stumble in that process. &n= bsp;I=20 agree if we don't firm it up=20 we'll spin

> > for a long time, but I=20 also don't want to jump to a=20 wrong conclusion.

>

> Fair enough - what you are=20 saying there does seem very reasonable = to me - but if we go down=20 the plan then I think we should=20 probably =A0spin up an Exploratory Grou= p=20 to go make some choices like=20 that.

+1. I'd very much support that and= =20 would be willing to help if

volunteers are needed.

> > My biggest objection is with=20 the proposal below is saying SIP = is=20 the

> > right choice for the Peer=20 Protocol. That seems not-quite-right (even
> > if SIP is used to establ= ish=20 the connections). The peer protocol=20 here.

> > again, is doing several things= =20 -- possibly maintaining an overlay

> > (possible RELOAD usage, although &nb= sp;we=20 have to make sure a full DHT=20 is

> > needed, which with a central=20 tracker it may not be) and in=20 the live

> > stream case, establishing connection= s.=20 Unless we resurrect dSIP (which

> > I'd love ;) ), SIP can't= =20 do the former, and I still think = it is way

> > overkill for the later unless = we come up with a lighter version= .=20 I'll

> > take a look at the advpr= op=20 draft you mention -- that might b= e=20 exactly

> > what I am thinking of bu= t=20 I have to admit I haven't read=20 it. I guess

> > my worry here is that yo= ur=20 version of the draft seems to be = taking the

> > "I have a SIP hammer so = this is a SIP nail" approach, and= =20 I'm not

> > quite convinced that's right (= at=20 least not yet, but I must admit=20 the

> > problem looks very nail shaped= .=20 Maybe just a really small nail).

>

> Well I understand how something=20 like RELAOD might get used for th= e=20 peer to tracker protocol, but once &nbs= p;you=20 know a peer you are going to &nbs= p;try=20 and set up an RTP session with=20 and, assuming the use of RTP, =A0= it=20 seems you need a protocol were ho= st=20 =A0A can tell host B to start=20 sending the following data in an = RTP=20 steam. =A0Do I have this about=20 right?

Yep, I think you do have it=20 right, and like I said, given=20 that

description, SIP (in the old original=20 session establishment sense) may

really be right, I'm just not quit= e=20 convinced yet. I'm sure you know

this since you have too, but as=20 someone who has hacked a bunch of= =20 SIP

stuff together over the years, I k= now=20 how much there is in SIP, and
how much of that we don't need &nb= sp;in=20 this context. Certainly don't mean

to imply it isn't a pretty strong = candidate.

David

> >

> > Reuse of SDP and RTP see= m=20 like no-brainers and I definitely=20 agree.

> >

> > Anyway, interesting thoughts,and my = 2 cents...

> >

> > David

> >

> > > There are a few ot= her=20 topics which are not addressed in = ;this=20 charter

> > > that worry me a lo= t.=20 The currently protocols being proposed = and=20 related

> > > discussion does not seem= =20 to address what is the incentive = for=20 anyone to

> > > serve content. It's clea= r=20 why you would receive but not cle= ar=20 why you

> > > would bother to transmit= .=20 Bittorrent put a lot of effort in= to=20 this and

> > > IMHO got it "right=20 enough" that the system is very=20 successful. I worry

> > > about it in this w= ork.=20 A second topic is that the desire= d=20 privacy

> > > properties of the system= =20 are also pretty vague. If we are = not clear

> > > about these in the=20 beginning, we run the risk of get= ting=20 very bogged

> > > down in arguing about=20 them as the protocol starts to ge= t=20 close to done.

> > >

> > > To try and help ge= t=20 things moving along, I have proposed=20 charter bellow

> > > that is very conservativ= e=20 . =A0As an individual, I would pr= obably=20 have a

> > > slight preference for a = more risky approach than the proposal=20 below but

> > > .

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 ------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The Peer-to-Peer Streaming=20 Protocol (PPSP) working group develops=20 two

> > > signaling and control=20 protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P)=20 streaming

> > > system for transmitting = live=20 and time shifted media content with=20 near

> > > real-time delivery=20 requirements.

> > >

> > > Two kinds of nodes=20 exist in the targeted P2P streaming=20 system, i.e.,

> > > "peers" and "trackers". = Peers=20 are nodes that are actively sending=20 and

> > > receiving streamed media=20 content, and include both statically=20 connected

> > > hosts as well as m= obile=20 devices with connectivity and IP addres= ses=20 that

> > > change over time. The=20 set of peers that are participating &nb= sp;in=20 a streaming

> > > session will dynamically=20 change over time. Trackers are well-kno= wn=20 nodes

> > > with stable connectivity = ;that=20 maintain meta information about the

> > > streamed content and the= =20 dynamic peer set. The working group &nb= sp;is=20 only

> > > addressing centralized tracker= s=20 and not the distributed tracker.

> > >

> > > The PPSP WG designs &nbs= p;a=20 protocol for signaling and control=20 between

> > > trackers and peers (the = PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signalin= g=20 and

> > > control protocol for=20 communication among the peers (the PPSP= =20 "peer

> > > protocol"). The two prot= ocols=20 enable peers to receive streaming data<= /DIV>
> > > within the time constrai= nts=20 required by specific content items.=20 =A0The

> > > tracker protocol handles = ;the=20 initial and periodic exchange of meta
> > > information between trackers=20 and peers, such as peer lists and= =20 content

> > > information. The peer=20 protocol controls the advertising and=20 exchange of

> > > media data availability=20 between the peers.

> > >

> > > The tracker protocol wil= l=20 be modeled as much as possible to= =20 match the

> > > exiting bittorrent protocol=20 with appropriate extensions for to=20 cary

> > > information that is need= ed=20 for selection of a peer suitable = for=20 real

> > > time streaming. Media=20 descriptions will use the syntax and=20 semantics

> > > from SDP where that &nbs= p;is=20 possible.

> > >

> > > The peer protocol will=20 be be an extension of SIP and=20 use ICE for NAT

> > > traversal.

> > >

> > > RTP will be used f= or=20 the encoding and transmission of the=20 media content

> > > between peers. PPSP is=20 not chartered to work on media=20 transmission

> > > protocols, media encoding=20 techniques or other components of a=20 P2P

> > > streaming system such as= =20 playout scheduling and control, etc.

> > >

> > > The work items of = the=20 PPSP WG are:

> > >

> > > (1) A "problem statement= "=20 document that gives an overview of=20 the

> > > ?=A0proposed P2P streaming=20 system, motivates the desire for=20 standardized

> > > ?=A0protocols, defines the=20 envisioned scope of those standardized

> > > ?=A0components and discusses=20 common terminologies and concepts.

> > >

> > > (2) A "requirements" doc= ument=20 that details the specific functional,

> > > ?=A0operational and performanc= e=20 requirements of the two PPSP=20 protocols.

> > >

> > > (3) An "architectural su= rvey"=20 document that summarizes current P2P

> > > ?=A0streaming architectures, i= n=20 particular tracker-based P2P streaming

> > > ?=A0systems, and highlights &n= bsp;best=20 current practices.

> > >

> > > (4) A detailed specifica= tion=20 of the PPSP peer protocol.

> > >

> > > (5) A detailed specifica= tion=20 of the PPSP tracker protocol.

> > >

> > > (6) A "usage guide"=20 that describes how the two PPSP=20 protocols and

> > > ?=A0existing IETF protocols,=20 such ALTO, can be combined to cre= ate=20 a

> > > ?=A0deployable operational P2P= =20 streaming system. =A0This document will

> > > ?=A0also discuss use of = layered media encoding and related medi= a=20 chunk

> > > ?=A0descriptions in the = peer=20 protocol for more robust streaming.

> > >

> > > The work items of = the=20 PPSP WG interacts with the work=20 performed in other

> > > IETF WGs, including SIPC= ORE,=20 AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever<= /DIV>
> > > extensions or modification &nb= sp;to=20 the protocols developed in other WGs=20 are

> > > deemed necessary, PPSP s= hall=20 communicate and discuss the requirements

> > > for such extensions with= =20 the relevant WGs but is not chart= ed=20 to make

> > > such changes.

> > >

> > > Goals and Milestones:

> > >

> > > Sep 2010 ?Submit problem= =20 statement to IESG as Informational

> > > Dec 2010 ?Submit=20 architectural survey to IESG as=20 Informational

> > > Dec 2010 ?Submit require= ments=20 document to IESG as Informational

> > > Aug 2011 ?Submit PPSP=20 peer protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

> > > Aug 2011 ?Submit PPSP=20 tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

> > > Dec 2011 ?Submit usage=20 guide to IESG to IESG as=20 Informational

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > > Cullen Jennings

> > > For corporate legal=20 information go to:

> > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing=5Fbusiness/legal/cri/index.html=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> > > ppsp mailing list

> > > ppsp@ietf.org

> > >=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

> > >

> >

>

>

> Cullen Jennings

> For corporate legal information go = to:

> http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing=5Fbusiness/legal/cri/index.html=

>

>

>

>

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ppsp@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
--=====003_Dragon771752380135_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Mar 17 20:44:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF313A685D for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:44:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.712, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FRT_BELOW2=2.154, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32DhUSblO26F for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD1DB3A6A7B for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.194]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010031812002848-135877 ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:00:28 +0800 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:25 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Ning Zong" , "'David A. Bryan'" , "'Cullen Jennings'" References: <007901cac4cd$dd29bbc0$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <201003181144250318462@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 12:00:28, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 11:44:25 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon368034675083_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:44:23 -0000 --=====003_Dragon368034675083_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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+1 for the=20 understanding.

Yunfei

zhangyunfei=

2010-03-18

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Ning=20 Zong

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2010-03-16 14:15:59

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA 'David A. Bryan';=20 'Cullen Jennings'

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Charter=20 Proposal

Hi, Cullen & David

Given the information and clarification=20 provided by Lars and Cullen, I

understand the points raised by Cullen. = My feeling is that PPSP may need<= /DIV>
more priority on efficiency since it=20 focuses on real-time streaming. So one<= /DIV>
potential advantage of centralized tracker=20 would be a quicker response to

the peer list request, rather than = ;a=20 hop-by-hop routing & response mode

defined in RELOAD. But the tracker = ;is=20 not necessarily a stand-alone server

(what I mean centralized in the=20 previous email), it could be a gr= oup=20 of

servers organized by some distributed wa= y=20 (for better robustness and load

balance, etc) and serve the peer l= ist=20 request as a whole logical tracker.
How to implement the latter case o= f=20 group of servers is currently not = ;in=20 the

scope, but definitely needs to be=20 considered later.

Another word, the peer-to-tracker message &nbs= p;is=20 sent to some single function to

return peer list as quick as possi= ble,=20 not routed hop-by-hop, for the sake
of real-time efficiency. I remember ther= e=20 are some comparison drafts

presented in PPSP to emphasize this=20 motivation.

Of course, that's only my two cent= s,=20 I'd like to hear more opinions fr= om=20 the

group.

BR,

Ning Zong

-----Original Message-----

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org]= =20 On Behalf Of

David A. Bryan

Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:46=20 AM

To: Cullen Jennings

Cc: ppsp@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal

So just a few little followup poin= ts,=20 mostly because I think I was a
bit unclear about my comment about=20 distributed trackers, inline...

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:26 &nbs= p;PM,=20 Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com > wrote:
>

> On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:22 &nbs= p;AM,=20 David A. Bryan wrote:

>

> > So in general I think th= ere=20 are a lot of good comments here, = and

> > thanks for sending things to=20 the list. A few things I had=20 comments on

> > inline...

> >

> > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at = 9:33 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.co= m=20 >

wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > The PPSP could easily=20 be one of these groups were we=20 spend the first

few

> > > years trying to chooses = which protocol to start with in=20 various

> > > places. That would just = remove the will to do anything in= =20 the group. I

> > > have been lurking and=20 watching this work from the beginning=20 and it

seems

> > > like there are probably = many things that most the participants = agree to

> > > that we could just = ;nail=20 down in the charter.   Doing so=20 would help get

> > > the work done faster=20 and provide others a clear idea t= hat=20 had not been

> > > been participating a muc= h=20 clearer idea of what this work is= =20 about.

> > >

> > > For example:

> > >

> > > Centralized or distributed=20 trackers. My belief is that most = the=20 folks

> > > want to do a=20 centralized tracker. On a side note, &n= bsp;I=20 think they would be

> > > hard to do a=20 distributed one before a centralized as= =20 centralized is

much

> > > easier. The obvious prot= ocol=20 to use for a centralized one is=20 to add the

> > > needed extensions to the= =20 HTTP based version of bittorrent=20 tracker

> > > protocol. If they want=20 to do a distributed one, RELOAD w= ould=20 meet the

> > > needs and at least = ;be=20 worth looking at.

> >

> > I'm a bit confused about = ;why=20 you want to exclude distributed=20 trackers.

> > Most of the information that=20 would be exchanged -- i.e. the ma= ps=20 of

> > chunks etc -- are going = to=20 be the same between the two. I=20 am still

> > trying to get my head ar= ound=20 where the "edge" is here, but=20 from

> > hacking at ideas a bit, = it=20 seems to me that the tracker prot= ocol=20 might

> > have two parts: query/place=20 information from the peers to the=20 tracker,

> > and information between trackers.=20 If the separation is clean, it=20 might

> > be possible to only focus &nbs= p;on=20 the part between peers/trackers and=20 not

> > consider distributed trackers, but=20 otherwise I think in protocol

> > design we should at least=20 consider it...seems like a bad idea=20 to

> > design a P2P protocol that=20 neglects P2P at a different level=20 (i.e.,

> > between trackers)

>

> I was just trying to put=20 into the charter the direction I=20 thought the

group wanted to go or at least=20 surface the issues so we could=20 feedback of

the form "yep, looks good" or "nop= e,=20 we want distributed". Obviously I'm a
bit of a fan of distributed=20 approaches.

Given this, and the followup Ning = had,=20 I think things became more

crisp than my original comment, but=20 just to be clear, I think what=20 I

am getting at is that I see = the=20 tracker, as Ning mentioned, as a

logical function. It could be implemente= d=20 in a centralized way (and

likely would be), or could actually &nbs= p;use=20 a DHT in the background. It

may be that we don't really need=20 to consider that in the design of= =20 the

protocol to query the "tracker" (whateve= r=20 that may be), and I

certainly don't want to muddy things &nb= sp;by=20 insisting it be distributed.

I'd personally suggest some wording akin= =20 to what we did in P2PSIP,

where we crafted a DHT for SIP=20 but tried not to break it for=20 other

possible applications. So here, maybe we= =20 say we are building for a

centralized tracker, but will try to=20 consider the problem of a

distributed, and make sure the protocol = for the logical process of

tracker calls doesn't do something that = explicitly breaks distributed

functionality later.

I definitely don't want to give th= e=20 IESG (or anyone else, really) the

impression that there is a big gro= up=20 of us looking to do a=20 distributed

tracker up front. As far as I=20 know, there isn't.

>

> >

> > > Similarly for the media = transfer, I suspect that many people=20 would be

> > > happy with RTP. It's=20 hard to imagine anything else given=20 the end goal

> > > for this. I guess = one=20 could argue for a new protocol or= =20 a protocol that

> > > transferred data tunneled &nbs= p;in=20 the peer signaling protocol.

> >

> > Absolutely agree. Devising new=20 mechanisms for media transport seems

> > way out of scope to me.<= /DIV>
> >

> > > The peer signing protoco= l=20 needs to be able to set up = the=20 RTP sessions

> > > and work thought NATs.=20 I think the NAT traversal scheme = will=20 end up

> > > being ICE or something=20 that more or less amounts to ICE = with no TURN

> > > option given the deploym= ent=20 models. Both RTSP and SIP are=20 candidates

> > > here. In some ways = ;at=20 first glance, RTSP might seem simpler. = But a

bunch

> > > of that simplicity comes= =20 from the model of it being deploy= ed=20 on server

> > > all clients can easily=20 reach without nat nightmares and less
> > > negotiation. Much of SIP= =20 complexity comes form too many=20 intermediaries

> > > and forking which would = not apply in this case.   We = will=20 have to add a

> > > bunch to RTSP to g= et=20 it to work or subtract some SIP=20 to get it to

> > > work. Not an easy = call=20 and not a call that the WG = is=20 in a great

position

> > > to sort out. I'd l= ove=20 to hear others thought on it.

> > >

> > > The alternative to the=20 RTSP/SIP approach is to replace the=20 signaling

and

> > > SDP with a capabilities = something more like the Advertisement=20 /

Proposal

> > > architecture the Jon and= =20 I have been discussion (See

> > > draft-peterson-sipcore-advprop ).
> >

> > Not quite as clear to me= =20 here, but I mostly agree. Definitely=20 need to

> > negotiate streams, and need to= =20 traverse NATs. SIP seems like using=20 a

> > fighter plane to kill a = fly=20 here, but may very well turn out = that many

> > of the capabilities end up=20 being needed once we get into it.= =20 The

> > problem is if the peers = are=20 speaking SIP, aren't they expected to=20 have

> > the full SIP capabilities. We = seem to need a SIP-Lite...(and yes,=20 I

> > know that has been discussed=20 oh, once or twice before, but her= e=20 it

> > would be for devices with=20 distinctly different applications)

>

> Right - for example, I see=20 no need for forking in one uses=20 SIP which

greatly the use of SIP. If the=20 the plan it to simplify SIP in=20 this way, we

probably need to express that in t= he=20 charter.   My view on using SIP &nb= sp;is=20 this

work would only need a subset of=20 it. However if we use RTSP, we=20 need to add

a bunch in RTSP. Typically cutting = ;away=20 stuff is faster than growing new

stuff but that is not always true.= =20 Either could be made to work. So = could

something new.

Yep. Fully agree, particularly about hac= king=20 rather than

growing...(i.e., SIP easier than RTSP. A= t=20 least in my opinion, I'd

agree.)

One wrinkle I see is that while=20 these look good for real-time, it

isn't quite clear to me that SIP=20 (or actually even RTP on the

transport side) is right in the=20 time-shifted context. If I am

retrieving the file then playing locally= =20 ala Bit-Torrent, it seems

possible that you would use a bulk= =20 transfer block-by-block in that

scenario and assemble and play locally, = rather than stream from the

peer that has it as would be = ;the=20 case in real-time. The more I've=20 dug

into this in the last few months, = the more the real-time and

time-shifted cases differ for the action= s=20 after you contact the

tracker.

> > My first take on the pro= posed=20 charter below is that I like=20 seeing

> > things get more concrete, but = it has two problems from my=20 perspective:

> >

> > I agree bit-torrent is a = ;very=20 good model and we should be looki= ng=20 at

> > it, but the survey work = is=20 also bringing in work from some o= ther=20 very

> > widely deployed solutions (PPLive,=20 for example), and I'm personally a

> > bit reluctant to just say=20 bit-torrent wins.

>

>

>

> >

> > I'm aware that PPLive and=20 Bit-Torrent address slightly different

> > problems, which is actually my= =20 biggest concern with the charter --
> > still not clear that the = ;live=20 and time-shifted content really call=20 for

> > the same protocol or share &nb= sp;as=20 much as might be thought in=20 common.

> > Particularly for the real-time=20 streaming, I'm not at all sure

> > Bit-Torrent is the right choic= e.=20 (although I can see using a=20 tracker

> > to find candidate peers and=20 establishing live sessions between

> > them...so it's possible)   I'd=20 rather wait just a little bit for= =20 the

> > survey document to evolve to=20 make that call, and get more=20 visibility

> > into if one protocol can = ;be=20 used for both streaming and=20 time-shifted

> > content. That's part of the=20 motivation for hacking together some

> > strawman work on the tracker=20 as well -- let's see what hard=20 problems

> > we stumble in that process. &n= bsp;I=20 agree if we don't firm it up=20 we'll spin

> > for a long time, but I=20 also don't want to jump to a=20 wrong conclusion.

>

> Fair enough - what you are=20 saying there does seem very reasonable = to me -

but if we go down the plan t= hen=20 I think we should probably   spin=20 up an

Exploratory Group to go make some=20 choices like that.

+1. I'd very much support that and= =20 would be willing to help if

volunteers are needed.

> > My biggest objection is with=20 the proposal below is saying SIP = is=20 the

> > right choice for the Peer=20 Protocol. That seems not-quite-right (even
> > if SIP is used to establ= ish=20 the connections). The peer protocol=20 here.

> > again, is doing several things= =20 -- possibly maintaining an overlay

> > (possible RELOAD usage, although &nb= sp;we=20 have to make sure a full DHT=20 is

> > needed, which with a central=20 tracker it may not be) and in=20 the live

> > stream case, establishing connection= s.=20 Unless we resurrect dSIP (which

> > I'd love ;) ), SIP can't= =20 do the former, and I still think = it is way

> > overkill for the later unless = we come up with a lighter version= .=20 I'll

> > take a look at the advpr= op=20 draft you mention -- that might b= e=20 exactly

> > what I am thinking of bu= t=20 I have to admit I haven't read=20 it. I guess

> > my worry here is that yo= ur=20 version of the draft seems to be = taking the

> > "I have a SIP hammer so = this is a SIP nail" approach, and= =20 I'm not

> > quite convinced that's right (= at=20 least not yet, but I must admit=20 the

> > problem looks very nail shaped= .=20 Maybe just a really small nail).

>

> Well I understand how something=20 like RELAOD might get used for th= e=20 peer to

tracker protocol, but once you know &nbs= p;a=20 peer you are going to try and=20 set up

an RTP session with and, assuming = the=20 use of RTP,   it seems you ne= ed=20 a

protocol were host   A can tell=20 host B to start sending the follo= wing=20 data in

an RTP steam.   Do I have this= =20 about right?

Yep, I think you do have it=20 right, and like I said, given=20 that

description, SIP (in the old original=20 session establishment sense) may

really be right, I'm just not quit= e=20 convinced yet. I'm sure you know

this since you have too, but as=20 someone who has hacked a bunch of= =20 SIP

stuff together over the years, I k= now=20 how much there is in SIP, and
how much of that we don't need &nb= sp;in=20 this context. Certainly don't mean

to imply it isn't a pretty strong = candidate.

David

> >

> > Reuse of SDP and RTP see= m=20 like no-brainers and I definitely=20 agree.

> >

> > Anyway, interesting thoughts,and my = 2 cents...

> >

> > David

> >

> > > There are a few ot= her=20 topics which are not addressed in = ;this=20 charter

> > > that worry me a lo= t.=20 The currently protocols being proposed = and=20 related

> > > discussion does not seem= =20 to address what is the incentive = for=20 anyone to

> > > serve content. It's clea= r=20 why you would receive but not cle= ar=20 why you

> > > would bother to transmit= .=20 Bittorrent put a lot of effort in= to=20 this and

> > > IMHO got it "right=20 enough" that the system is very=20 successful. I worry

> > > about it in this w= ork.=20 A second topic is that the desire= d=20 privacy

> > > properties of the system= =20 are also pretty vague. If we are = not clear

> > > about these in the=20 beginning, we run the risk of get= ting=20 very bogged

> > > down in arguing about=20 them as the protocol starts to ge= t=20 close to done.

> > >

> > > To try and help ge= t=20 things moving along, I have proposed=20 charter bellow

> > > that is very conservativ= e=20 .   As an individual, I would=20 probably have a

> > > slight preference for a = more risky approach than the proposal=20 below but

> > > .

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 ------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The Peer-to-Peer Streaming=20 Protocol (PPSP) working group develops=20 two

> > > signaling and control=20 protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P)=20 streaming

> > > system for transmitting = live=20 and time shifted media content with=20 near

> > > real-time delivery=20 requirements.

> > >

> > > Two kinds of nodes=20 exist in the targeted P2P streaming=20 system, i.e.,

> > > "peers" and "trackers". = Peers=20 are nodes that are actively sending=20 and

> > > receiving streamed media=20 content, and include both statically=20 connected

> > > hosts as well as m= obile=20 devices with connectivity and IP addres= ses=20 that

> > > change over time. The=20 set of peers that are participating &nb= sp;in=20 a

streaming

> > > session will dynamically=20 change over time. Trackers are=20 well-known

nodes

> > > with stable connectivity = ;that=20 maintain meta information about the

> > > streamed content and the= =20 dynamic peer set. The working group &nb= sp;is=20 only

> > > addressing centralized tracker= s=20 and not the distributed tracker.

> > >

> > > The PPSP WG designs &nbs= p;a=20 protocol for signaling and control=20 between

> > > trackers and peers (the = PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signalin= g=20 and

> > > control protocol for=20 communication among the peers (the PPSP= =20 "peer

> > > protocol"). The two prot= ocols=20 enable peers to receive streaming data<= /DIV>
> > > within the time constrai= nts=20 required by specific content items.=20   The

> > > tracker protocol handles = ;the=20 initial and periodic exchange of meta
> > > information between trackers=20 and peers, such as peer lists and= =20 content

> > > information. The peer=20 protocol controls the advertising and=20 exchange of

> > > media data availability=20 between the peers.

> > >

> > > The tracker protocol wil= l=20 be modeled as much as possible to= =20 match the

> > > exiting bittorrent protocol=20 with appropriate extensions for to=20 cary

> > > information that is need= ed=20 for selection of a peer suitable = for=20 real

> > > time streaming. Media=20 descriptions will use the syntax and=20 semantics

> > > from SDP where that &nbs= p;is=20 possible.

> > >

> > > The peer protocol will=20 be be an extension of SIP and=20 use ICE for NAT

> > > traversal.

> > >

> > > RTP will be used f= or=20 the encoding and transmission of the=20 media content

> > > between peers. PPSP is=20 not chartered to work on media=20 transmission

> > > protocols, media encoding=20 techniques or other components of a=20 P2P

> > > streaming system such as= =20 playout scheduling and control, etc.

> > >

> > > The work items of = the=20 PPSP WG are:

> > >

> > > (1) A "problem statement= "=20 document that gives an overview of=20 the

> > >      proposed P2P=20 streaming system, motivates the desire = for=20 standardized

> > >      protocols, define= s=20 the envisioned scope of those=20 standardized

> > >      components and=20 discusses common terminologies and concepts.<= /DIV>
> > >

> > > (2) A "requirements" doc= ument=20 that details the specific functional,

> > >      operational and=20 performance requirements of the two PPS= P=20 protocols.

> > >

> > > (3) An "architectural su= rvey"=20 document that summarizes current P2P

> > >      streaming=20 architectures, in particular tracker-based P2= P=20 streaming

> > >      systems, and=20 highlights best current practices.

> > >

> > > (4) A detailed specifica= tion=20 of the PPSP peer protocol.

> > >

> > > (5) A detailed specifica= tion=20 of the PPSP tracker protocol.

> > >

> > > (6) A "usage guide"=20 that describes how the two PPSP=20 protocols and

> > >      existing IETF=20 protocols, such ALTO, can be combined=20 to create a

> > >      deployable operat= ional=20 P2P streaming system.   This document=20 will

> > >      also discuss &nbs= p;use=20 of layered media encoding and related=20 media chunk

> > >      descriptions in=20 the peer protocol for more robust=20 streaming.

> > >

> > > The work items of = the=20 PPSP WG interacts with the work=20 performed in

other

> > > IETF WGs, including SIPC= ORE,=20 AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever<= /DIV>
> > > extensions or modification &nb= sp;to=20 the protocols developed in other WGs=20 are

> > > deemed necessary, PPSP s= hall=20 communicate and discuss the requirements

> > > for such extensions with= =20 the relevant WGs but is not chart= ed=20 to make

> > > such changes.

> > >

> > > Goals and Milestones:

> > >

> > > Sep 2010    Submit=20 problem statement to IESG as=20 Informational

> > > Dec 2010    Submit=20 architectural survey to IESG as=20 Informational

> > > Dec 2010    Submit=20 requirements document to IESG as=20 Informational

> > > Aug 2011    Submit=20 PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Pro= posed=20 Standard

> > > Aug 2011    Submit=20 PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as=20 Proposed Standard

> > > Dec 2011    Submit=20 usage guide to IESG to IESG as=20 Informational

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > > Cullen Jennings

> > > For corporate legal=20 information go to:

> > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing=5Fbusiness/legal/cri/index.html=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> > > ppsp mailing list

> > > ppsp@ietf.org

> > >=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

> > >

> >

>

>

> Cullen Jennings

> For corporate legal information go = to:

> http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing=5Fbusiness/legal/cri/index.html=

>

>

>

>

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
ppsp mailing list

ppsp@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
ppsp mailing list

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--=====003_Dragon368034675083_=====-- From hocs@itri.org.tw Wed Mar 17 20:45:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42493A69D8; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -91.993 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-91.993 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.892, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_TW=1.335, HELO_MISMATCH_TW=0.994, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_39=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_BAD_ID=2.837, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r9lU8Yxrcaoc; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maillog1.itri.org.tw (unknown [61.61.254.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3432D3A68AD; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.itri.org.tw (mail.itri.org.tw [140.96.157.2]) by maillog1.itri.org.tw with ESMTP id o2I3im0o076281; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:53 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from hocs@itri.org.tw) Received: from mail.itri.org.tw (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.itri.org.tw (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o2I3ib3x029975; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from msx.itri.org.tw ([140.96.151.68])by mail.itri.org.tw (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o2I3ibLj029923; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from 52092035394 (140.96.150.239) by smtpx.itri.org.tw(140.96.151.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.2.234.1; Thu, 18 Mar 201011:44:30 +0800 From: JeffreyHo To: "'David A. Bryan'" References: <8b2769931003171914k707fd83cw4e3e600b82429b04@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:31 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_Boundary_xjm1kYZsl8wnrOP6lWZo" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcrGQVMI7Y/vo2q4SbCgWaVOyWIMgwACsg7A In-Reply-To: <8b2769931003171914k707fd83cw4e3e600b82429b04@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-MAIL: maillog1.itri.org.tw o2I3im0o076281 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org, p2psip@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for bothP2P Live Streaming and VoD Service? X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:45:16 -0000 --=_Boundary_xjm1kYZsl8wnrOP6lWZo Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=originalmail.eml Received: from msx.itri.org.tw ([140.96.151.68]) by mail.itri.org.tw (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o2I3ibLj029923; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from 52092035394 (140.96.150.239) by smtpx.itri.org.tw (140.96.151.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.2.234.1; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:30 +0800 From: JeffreyHo To: "'David A. Bryan'" CC: , References: <8b2769931003171914k707fd83cw4e3e600b82429b04@mail.gmail.com> Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for bothP2P Live Streaming and VoD Service? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:44:31 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009F_01CAC690.5F753EB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcrGQVMI7Y/vo2q4SbCgWaVOyWIMgwACsg7A In-Reply-To: <8b2769931003171914k707fd83cw4e3e600b82429b04@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Disposition-Notification-To: "JeffreyHo" ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01CAC690.5F753EB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, there is the same topic posted in the PPSP group. Please see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/msg00552.html But there is not any discussion there. I think there is indeed a good = bits of overlay of participants between P2PSIP and PPSP lists. Thanks. _____ =20 From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of David A. Bryan Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:15 AM To: wang.jun17@zte.com.cn Cc: p2psip@ietf.org Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for bothP2P Live Streaming and VoD Service? This isn't really the best list for a discussion about these topics, = since the P2PSIP group isn't chartered right now to work on streaming or = trackers. The best place is probably over on the PPSP list, rather than here. That = is the group that is looking building streaming systems and trackers, and = can certainly discuss if RELOAD is a good protocol choice for that = application, while this group is currently only chartered to look at a protocol for = DHTs for use with SIP. You are more likely to get the right folks for this discussion on that list (and of course there is a good bit of overlap of participants between the lists). David (as chair) 2010/3/17 Eric Rescorla Yes, this is also out of scope for the WG.=20 -Ekr 2010/3/17 DHT/reload discussed here are used for build trackers of a streaming = system, where the resources are chunk/piece of data other than users.=20 Wang Russell Eric Rescorla =20 2010-03-17 22:12=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB wang.jun17@zte.com.cn=20 =B3=AD=CB=CD jc , "p2psip@ietf.org" , p2psip-bounces@ietf.org =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 Re: [P2PSIP] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Re: Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be = leverage for both P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service?=09 =09 This all seems really off topic for this WG. The charter of P2PSIP explicitly excludes=20 any work on this kind of media sharing:=20 1. Issues specific to applications other than locating users and resources for SIP-based communications and presence.=20 -Ekr=20 2010/3/17 < wang.jun17@zte.com.cn>=20 I think whatever the centralized or distributed tracker you = chose, if you must deal with billions of users's access, they're the same. The centralized tracker must be deployed in distributed or so-called = 'cluster' mode, DHT is just one kind of distributed algorithm, not so special...=20 And futhermore, the DHT algorithm does not always mean 'poor performance', we have implemented one kind of DHT algorithm suitable for stable network, its lookup cost is one hop(thousands nodes) or two hop(millions nodes), and the algorithm released as a plug-in of RELOAD protocol.=20 The similar algorithm you can found in amazon's dynamo or the = memcahce project, and there's also some other constant complexity DHT algorithm.=20 Russell Wang jc < julian@orchidseed.org>=20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: = p2psip-bounces@ietf.org=20 2010-03-16 08:58=20 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB Bruce Lowekamp < bbl@lowekamp.net> =09 =B3=AD=CB=CD " p2psip@ietf.org" < p2psip@ietf.org> =09 =D6=F7=CC=E2 Re: [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for both P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service?=09 =09 The largest overlay i've seen where every node participated in storage = and routing was ~1.6M. They operate best under ~650K. At about 1M the = routing times get into the minutes. You would need to create and ad-hoc overlay = for every stream. I've implemented a multicast layer that does this over a = DHT. The DHT is the signaling layer used to setup these ad-hoc = overlays(groups). RELOAD could perform the signaling, rendezvous setup, multicast grouping storage but not too much more.=20 On Mar 15, 2010, at 8:10 PM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote:=20 So substituting the terms used in RELOAD, this is exactly my point. draft-hu-ppsp-tracker-dht-performance-comparison assumes 20M peers, i.e. nodes used in routing, and bases latency calculations on that number. = Not 57K. The draft further works out that with 20M peers storing data, each needs to store 0.01 of a resource.=20 Even if you do the calculations with a reasonable number of peers = (routing nodes), the dht overlay will still obviously have higher latency than a single-server based solution. You select a dht overlay for different reasons than you would select a central server-based solution.=20 Bruce=20 On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:27 PM, jc < julian@orchidseed.org> wrote:=20 You need 57,142.857 nodes to route 20M of peer traffic. This is the algorithm we used in fasttrack and is the same as in skype. This is a maximum capacity scenario. Sent from my iPhone=20 On Mar 15, 2010, at 6:32 PM, Bruce Lowekamp < bbl@lowekamp.net> wrote: They scale fine, but there is a point beyond which adding additional = peers to the overlay routing merely adds latency. Don't have time to look up = the references now, but there are a number of papers discussing the = advantages of different numbers of peers (superpeers in a lot of systems) needed = for overlay routing. You don't need 10M.=20 Bruce=20 On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:55 AM, jc < julian@orchidseed.org> wrote:=20 On Mar 15, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote:=20 The performance comparison draft compares the performance of a = centralized lookup server with a P2P DHT system with 10M peers. Since those address entirely different use cases, and no one would ever deploy a 10M peer distributed tracker, it's not clear what the point of the comparison is. This has nothing to do with RELOAD.=20 There are active distributed trackers w/ > 1M peers. Why would you not deploy a 10M user distributed tracker? They do inherently scale = infinitely by nature.=20 Bruce=20 On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:55 AM, World < = worldhocs@yahoo.com.tw> wrote:=20 Dear all,=20 =20 I am thinking what P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service can leverage = P2PSIP RELOAD. According to some research or proposal report, it seems that = P2PSIP RELOAD can be used in P2P-based Tracker and/or chunk description distribution (chunk discovery) at the full distributed deployment. Both P2P-based Tracker and chunk description distribution over P2PSIP overlay were evaluated in performance referred to draft-chen-ppsp-dht-chunk-discovery-evaluation-00.txt and draft-hu-ppsp-tracker-dht-performance-comparison-01.txt. The result = showed the performance of DHT-based Tracker and chunk description distribution = is worse, even not acceptable for P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service.=20 So can we make such conclusion that P2PSIP RELOAD is not suitable to be leverage for both P2P Live Streaming and VoD Service in case a full distributed deployment is not mandatory? What do you think?=20 =20 Any comments are welcome. Thanks.=20 =20 BR, Jeffrey=09 _______________________________________________ P2PSIP mailing list P2PSIP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip _______________________________________________ P2PSIP mailing list P2PSIP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip=20 _______________________________________________ P2PSIP mailing list P2PSIP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy = and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to = others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of = the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. _______________________________________________ P2PSIP mailing list P2PSIP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy = and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to = others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of = the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. _______________________________________________ P2PSIP mailing list P2PSIP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01CAC690.5F753EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Actually, there is the same = topic posted=20 in the PPSP group. Please see = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/msg00552.html

But there is not=20 any discussion there. I think there is indeed a good bits of = overlay of=20 participants between P2PSIP and PPSP lists.

Thanks.

From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A.=20 Bryan
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:15 AM
To:=20 wang.jun17@zte.com.cn
Cc: p2psip@ietf.org
Subject: = Re:=20 [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for bothP2P Live = Streaming=20 and VoD Service?

This isn't really the best list for a discussion about these = topics,=20 since the P2PSIP group isn't chartered right now to work on streaming or = trackers. The best place is probably over on the PPSP list, rather than = here.=20 That is the group that is looking building streaming systems and = trackers, and=20 can certainly discuss if RELOAD is a good protocol choice for that = application,=20 while this group is currently only chartered to look at a protocol for = DHTs for=20 use with SIP. You are more likely to get the right folks for this = discussion on=20 that list (and of course there is a good bit of overlap of participants = between=20 the lists).

David (as chair)

2010/3/17 Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>

Yes,=20 this is also out of scope for the WG.

-Ekr

2010/3/17 <wang.jun17@zte.com.cn>

DHT/reload discussed here are used for = build trackers=20 of a streaming system, where the resources are chunk/piece of data = other=20 than users.

Wang = Russell

Eric = Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>=20
2010-03-17 22:12 =

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB

wang.jun17@zte.com.cn =

=B3=AD=CB=CD
jc <julian@orchidseed.org>, "p2psip@ietf.org"=20 <p2psip@ietf.org>, p2psip-bounces@ietf.org =

=D6=F7=CC=E2
Re: [P2PSIP] = =B4=F0=B8=B4: Re: Is P2PSIP=20 RELOAD not suitable to be leverage for both P2P Live = Streaming=20 and VoD Service?

=

<= FONT=20 face=3Dsans-serif size=3D3>This all seems really off topic for this = WG. The=20 charter of P2PSIP explicitly excludes
any work on this kind of media sharing: =

1. Issues specific to applications other = than=20 locating users and
resources for SIP-based communications and=20 presence.

-Ekr=20

2010/3/17 <wang.jun17@zte.com.cn>

I think whatever the = centralized or=20 distributed tracker you chose, if you must deal with billions of = users's=20 access, they're the same. The centralized tracker must be deployed = in=20 distributed or so-called 'cluster' mode, DHT is just one kind of = distributed=20 algorithm, not so special... =
And = futhermore,=20 the DHT algorithm does not always mean 'poor performance', we have=20 implemented one kind of DHT algorithm suitable for stable network, = its=20 lookup cost is one hop(thousands nodes) or two hop(millions nodes), = and the=20 algorithm released as a plug-in of RELOAD protocol.
=20 The similar algorithm you can found in amazon's dynamo = or the=20 memcahce project, and there's also some other constant complexity = DHT=20 algorithm. =

Russell Wang

jc = <julian@orchidseed.org>
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: = p2psip-bounces@ietf.org
2010-03-16 = 08:58

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB
Bruce = Lowekamp=20 <bbl@lowekamp.net> =

=B3=AD=CB=CD
"p2psip@ietf.org" <p2psip@ietf.org> =

=D6=F7=CC=E2
Re: [P2PSIP] Is = P2PSIP RELOAD=20 not suitable to be leverage for both = =20 P2P Live Streaming and VoD=20 Service?

The largest overlay i've seen = where every=20 node participated in storage and routing was ~1.6M. They operate = best under=20 ~650K. At about 1M the routing times get into the minutes. You would = need to=20 create and ad-hoc overlay for every stream. I've implemented a = multicast=20 layer that does this over a DHT. The DHT is the signaling layer used = to=20 setup these ad-hoc overlays(groups). RELOAD could perform the = signaling,=20 rendezvous setup, multicast grouping storage but not too much more.=20

On Mar 15, 2010, at 8:10 PM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote: =

So=20 substituting the terms used in RELOAD, this is exactly my point.=20 draft-hu-ppsp-tracker-dht-performance-comparison assumes 20M = peers,=20 i.e. nodes used in routing, and bases latency calculations on that = number.=20 Not 57K. The draft further works out that with 20M peers = storing=20 data, each needs to store 0.01 of a resource.

Even if you do = the=20 calculations with a reasonable number of peers (routing nodes), the = dht=20 overlay will still obviously have higher latency than a = single-server based=20 solution. You select a dht overlay for different reasons than = you=20 would select a central server-based solution.

Bruce =

On=20 Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:27 PM, jc <julian@orchidseed.org> wrote:
You need 57,142.857 nodes = to route=20 20M of peer traffic. This is the algorithm we used in fasttrack and = is the=20 same as in skype. This is a maximum capacity scenario.

Sent = from my=20 iPhone

On Mar 15, 2010, at 6:32 PM, Bruce Lowekamp = <bbl@lowekamp.net> wrote:

They scale fine, but there is a point = beyond which=20 adding additional peers to the overlay routing merely adds latency.=20 Don't have time to look up the references now, but there are a = number=20 of papers discussing the advantages of different numbers of peers=20 (superpeers in a lot of systems) needed for overlay routing. = You don't=20 need 10M.

Bruce

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:55 = AM, jc=20 <julian@orchidseed.org> wrote:

On Mar 15, 2010, at = 3:32 PM,=20 Bruce Lowekamp wrote:

The performance comparison draft = compares the=20 performance of a centralized lookup server with a P2P DHT system = with 10M=20 peers. Since those address entirely different use cases, and = no one=20 would ever deploy a 10M peer distributed tracker, it's not clear = what the=20 point of the comparison is. This has nothing to do with = RELOAD.=20

There are active distributed trackers w/ > 1M peers. Why = would=20 you not deploy a 10M user distributed tracker? They do inherently = scale=20 infinitely by nature.

Bruce

On Mon, Mar = 15, 2010=20 at 12:55 AM, World <worldhocs@yahoo.com.tw> wrote:

Dear all,=20

I am thinking what P2P Live Streaming and VoD = Service=20 can leverage P2PSIP RELOAD. According to some research or = proposal=20 report, it seems that P2PSIP RELOAD can be used in P2P-based = Tracker=20 and/or chunk description distribution (chunk discovery) at the = full=20 distributed deployment. Both P2P-based Tracker and chunk = description=20 distribution over P2PSIP overlay were evaluated in performance = referred to = draft-chen-ppsp-dht-chunk-discovery-evaluation-00.txt and=20 draft-hu-ppsp-tracker-dht-performance-comparison-01.txt. The = result=20 showed the performance of DHT-based Tracker and chunk = description=20 distribution is worse, even not acceptable for P2P Live = Streaming and=20 VoD Service.

So can we make such conclusion that = P2PSIP RELOAD=20 is not suitable to be leverage for both P2P Live Streaming and = VoD=20 Service in case a full distributed deployment is not = mandatory? What=20 do you think?

Any comments are welcome. Thanks.=20 =

BR,
Jeffrey

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P2PSIP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

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P2PSIP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

_______________________________________________ P2PSI= P=20 mailing listP2PSIP@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

-------------------------------------------------------- = ZTE=20 Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is=20 solely property of the sender's organization. This mail = communication is=20 confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain = secrecy and=20 are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to=20 others. This email and any files transmitted with it are = confidential and=20 intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they = are=20 addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify = the=20 originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are = those of=20 the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses = and Spam=20 by ZTE Anti-Spam system.

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<= /BLOCKQUOTE>

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Please do not use or= disclose it in any way and delete it if you are not the intended= recipient. --=_Boundary_xjm1kYZsl8wnrOP6lWZo-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Mar 17 20:46:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363093A6A95 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:46:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.13 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.13 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.441, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FRT_BELOW2=2.154, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 48FLJZ7QEhPA for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD56F3A69D8 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.194]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010031812022584-135937 ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:02:25 +0800 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:46:22 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "David A. Bryan" , "Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)" References: <92A20786-65FE-4135-8291-581EAA10FE71@cisco.com><8b2769931003130 722t2869617bq66dcf24b1afa0c3d@mail.gmail.com><8b2769931003151746k18e4ad6er12d1548fb030c215@mail.gmail. com><5D84FDD8D5DC8646B9F73CF1EFD1BFA40150B45D@CNBEEXC007.nsn-intra.net> <8b2769931003160725p1ef5b1edt3e79510a84795c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201003181146223439191@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 12:02:26, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 11:46:23 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon135658214410_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal - real-time and time-shifted X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: 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This is also what I want= to=20 clarify.+1.

Peer protocol is only fo= r chunk=20 availability exchange from our current discussion both in the meeting and i= n the=20 mailing list.

Yunfei

zhangyunfei=

2010-03-18

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A.=20 Bryan

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2010-03-16 23:07:12

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN -=20 CN/Beijing)

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Charter=20 Proposal - real-time and time-shifted

My understanding of the work of th= e=20 PPSP group is yes, it would be
limited to the tracker and peer=20 protocols. However, what Cullen was

proposing went further (since he was=20 talking about the actual

negotiating of establishing a session), = so=20 my comments were about

that. My most recent understanding after= =20 the Hiroshima meeting (and I

may be confused) was that PPSP was= =20 more focused on just the tracker

and peer protocol part of the puzz= le=20 for now.

David

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 4:06 = ;AM,=20 Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)

<lin.xiao@nsn.com > wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

> I'd like to open a new=20 thread for the discussion of allowed=20 PPSP media type.

>

> It is true that there are=20 lot of different requirements and behav= iors=20 of real-time streaming, VoD and file=20 downloading. However, PPSP is only a=20 set of signaling protocols but not=20 media transmission protocol. From this=20 point, there must be common structure=20 and signaling process flow shared by=20 these three use cases. A "usage t= ype"=20 was defined to identify the type = of=20 content transmitted in PPSP system=20 (requirement draft -03). =A0Parameters can &n= bsp;be=20 adjusted according to different "usage=20 types" for different kind of=20 transmission.

>

> As far as I know, most = of=20 the P2P streaming software, e.g. PPlive= =20 and PPStream, support both live streami= ng=20 and VoD services. Recently, PPStream ev= en=20 allow downloading the whole film file=20 to users' local disks, just like=20 Bit-Torrent does. It means common signa= ling=20 and control method can be designed &nbs= p;for=20 all the "usage types".

>

>

> Br

> Lin Xiao

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of e= xt=20 David A. Bryan

> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 = ;8:46=20 AM

> To: Cullen Jennings

> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter=20 Proposal

>

> So just a few little followup= =20 points, mostly because I think I = was=20 a bit unclear about my comment ab= out=20 distributed trackers, inline...

>

> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at=20 12:26 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.c= om=20 > wrote:

> >

> > On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:22= =20 AM, David A. Bryan wrote:

> >

> > > So in general I think=20 there are a lot of good comments = here, and

> > > thanks for sending things = ;to=20 the list. A few things I had=20 comments on

> > > inline...

> > >

> > > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 &nbs= p;at=20 9:33 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.co= m=20 > wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The PPSP could easi= ly=20 be one of these groups were we=20 spend the

> > > > first few years try= ing=20 to chooses which protocol to start=20 with in

> > > > various places. That=20 would just remove the will to do = anything in

> > > > the group. I have=20 been lurking and watching this work=20 from the

> > > > beginning and it se= ems=20 like there are probably many things=20 that

> > > > most the participants=20 agree to that we could just nail = down in the

> > > > charter. =A0Doing so &nbs= p;would=20 help get the work done faster and= =20 provide

> > > > others a clear idea= =20 that had not been been participating &n= bsp;a=20 much clearer idea of what this wo= rk=20 is about.

> > > >

> > > > For example:

> > > >

> > > > Centralized or distribute= d=20 trackers. My belief is that most=20 the

> > > > folks want to do &n= bsp;a=20 centralized tracker. On a side note, &n= bsp;I=20 think

> > > > they would be hard = to do a distributed one before a = centralized as

> > > > centralized is much=20 easier. The obvious protocol to use=20 for a

> > > > centralized one is = to=20 add the needed extensions to the = HTTP=20 based

> > > > version of bittorrent=20 tracker protocol. If they want to = ;do=20 a

> > > > distributed one, RELOAD=20 would meet the needs and at least= =20 be worth looking at.

> > >

> > > I'm a bit confused about = why you want to exclude distributed=20 trackers.

> > > Most of the information t= hat=20 would be exchanged -- i.e. the ma= ps=20 of

> > > chunks etc -- are going=20 to be the same between the two.=20 I am still

> > > trying to get my head=20 around where the "edge" is here, = but=20 from

> > > hacking at ideas a bit,=20 it seems to me that the tracker=20 protocol

> > > might have two parts:=20 query/place information from the peers = to=20 the

> > > tracker, and information betwee= n=20 trackers. If the separation is

> > > clean, it might be possib= le=20 to only focus on the part=20 between

> > > peers/trackers and not consider= =20 distributed trackers, but otherwise I

> > > think in protocol design = we=20 should at least consider it...seems=20 like

> > > a bad idea to design &nbs= p;a=20 P2P protocol that neglects P2P at = ;a=20 different

> > > level (i.e., between trackers)<= /DIV>
> >

> > I was just trying to put= =20 into the charter the direction I=20 thought the group wanted to go or= =20 at least surface the issues so we= =20 could feedback of the form "yep, = looks=20 good" or "nope, we want distributed".=20 Obviously I'm a bit of a fan &nbs= p;of=20 distributed approaches.

>

> Given this, and the followup = Ning=20 had, I think things became more c= risp=20 than my original comment, but just &nbs= p;to=20 be clear, I think what I am=20 getting at is that I see the=20 tracker, as Ning mentioned, as a=20 logical function. It could be implement= ed=20 in a centralized way (and likely = would=20 be), or could actually use a DHT = in the background. It may be that= =20 we don't really need to consider = that=20 in the design of the protocol to = query the "tracker" (whatever that may = be), and I certainly don't want t= o=20 muddy things by insisting it be=20 distributed.

> I'd personally suggest some wording= =20 akin to what we did in P2PSIP,=20 where we crafted a DHT for SIP=20 but tried not to break it for=20 other possible applications. So here, m= aybe=20 we say we are building for a=20 centralized tracker, but will try to=20 consider the problem of a distributed, = and make sure the protocol for th= e=20 logical process of tracker calls doesn'= t=20 do something that explicitly breaks=20 distributed functionality later.

>

> I definitely don't want to gi= ve=20 the IESG (or anyone else, really) = ;the=20 impression that there is a big gr= oup=20 of us looking to do a distributed= =20 tracker up front. As far as I=20 know, there isn't.

>

> >

> > >

> > > > Similarly for the m= edia=20 transfer, I suspect that many people=20 would

> > > > be happy with RTP. = It's hard to imagine anything else=20 given the end

> > > > goal for this. I=20 guess one could argue for a new=20 protocol or a

> > > > protocol that transferred= =20 data tunneled in the peer signaling=20 protocol.

> > >

> > > Absolutely agree. Devising new = mechanisms for media transport seems

> > > way out of scope to=20 me.

> > >

> > > > The peer signing=20 protocol needs to be able to set = up the RTP

> > > > sessions and work=20 thought NATs. I think the NAT=20 traversal scheme

> > > > will end up being=20 ICE or something that more or les= s=20 amounts to ICE

> > > > with no TURN option= =20 given the deployment models. Both RTSP = and SIP

> > > > are candidates here. &nbs= p;In=20 some ways at first glance, RTSP m= ight=20 seem

> > > > simpler. But a bunc= h=20 of that simplicity comes from the=20 model of it

> > > > being deployed on s= erver=20 all clients can easily reach without=20 nat

> > > > nightmares and less=20 negotiation. Much of SIP complexity com= es=20 form

> > > > too many intermediaries=20 and forking which would not apply = ;in=20 this

> > > > case. =A0We will ha= ve=20 to add a bunch to RTSP to g= et=20 it to work or

> > > > subtract some SIP t= o=20 get it to work. Not an easy = ;call=20 and not a

> > > > call that the WG=20 is in a great position to sort=20 out. I'd love to hear others thou= ght=20 on it.

> > > >

> > > > The alternative to = the=20 RTSP/SIP approach is to replace the
> > > > signaling and SDP w= ith=20 a capabilities something more like the<= /DIV>
> > > > Advertisement / Proposal = architecture the Jon and I have=20 been

> > > > discussion (See=20 draft-peterson-sipcore-advprop ).

> > >

> > > Not quite as clear to &nb= sp;me=20 here, but I mostly agree. Definitely=20 need to

> > > negotiate streams, and need &nb= sp;to=20 traverse NATs. SIP seems like using=20 a

> > > fighter plane to kill a=20 fly here, but may very well turn = out that

> > > many of the capabilities = end=20 up being needed once we get into = it. The

> > > problem is if the peers=20 are speaking SIP, aren't they expected = to

> > > have the full SIP=20 capabilities. We seem to need a=20 SIP-Lite...(and

> > > yes, I know that has=20 been discussed oh, once or twice=20 before, but

> > > here it would be for=20 devices with distinctly different=20 applications)

> >

> > Right - for example, I s= ee=20 no need for forking in one uses=20 SIP which greatly the use of SIP.= =20 If the the plan it to simplify=20 SIP in this way, we probably need= =20 to express that in the charter. = =A0My=20 view on using SIP is this work=20 would only need a subset of it.=20 However if we use RTSP, we need=20 to add a bunch in RTSP. Typically= =20 cutting away stuff is faster than=20 growing new stuff but that is not= =20 always true. Either could be made = ;to=20 work. So could something new.

>

> Yep. Fully agree, particularly abou= t=20 hacking rather than growing...(i.e., SIP=20 easier than RTSP. At least in my = opinion, I'd

> agree.)

>

> One wrinkle I see is that=20 while these look good for real-time,=20 it isn't quite clear to me that=20 SIP (or actually even RTP on the = transport side) is right in the=20 time-shifted context. If I am retrievin= g=20 the file then playing locally ala=20 Bit-Torrent, it seems possible that you= =20 would use a bulk transfer block-by-bloc= k=20 in that scenario and assemble and = ;play=20 locally, rather than stream from the=20 peer that has it as would be &nbs= p;the=20 case in real-time. The more I've = dug=20 into this in the last few months,= =20 the more the real-time and time-shifted= =20 cases differ for the actions after &nbs= p;you=20 contact the tracker.

>

> > > My first take on the=20 proposed charter below is that I = like=20 seeing

> > > things get more concrete, = ;but=20 it has two problems from my=20 perspective:

> > >

> > > I agree bit-torrent is a = very good model and we should be = looking at

> > > it, but the survey work=20 is also bringing in work from som= e=20 other very

> > > widely deployed solutions (PPLi= ve,=20 for example), and I'm personally a

> > > bit reluctant to just say= =20 bit-torrent wins.

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > I'm aware that PPLive and= =20 Bit-Torrent address slightly different

> > > problems, which is actually &nb= sp;my=20 biggest concern with the charter --
> > > still not clear that the = live and time-shifted content really=20 call

> > > for the same protocol or = share as much as might be thought= =20 in common.

> > > Particularly for the real-time = streaming, I'm not at all sure

> > > Bit-Torrent is the right=20 choice. (although I can see using = ;a=20 tracker

> > > to find candidate peers a= nd=20 establishing live sessions between

> > > them...so it's possible) =A0I'd= =20 rather wait just a little bit for= =20 the

> > > survey document to evolve = ;to=20 make that call, and get more=20 visibility

> > > into if one protocol can = be used for both streaming and=20 time-shifted

> > > content. That's part of t= he=20 motivation for hacking together some

> > > strawman work on the trac= ker=20 as well -- let's see what hard=20 problems

> > > we stumble in that proces= s.=20 I agree if we don't firm it = ;up=20 we'll spin

> > > for a long time, but &nbs= p;I=20 also don't want to jump to a=20 wrong conclusion.

> >

> > Fair enough - what you a= re=20 saying there does seem very reasonable = to me - but if we go down=20 the plan then I think we should=20 probably =A0spin up an Exploratory Grou= p=20 to go make some choices like=20 that.

>

> +1. I'd very much support tha= t=20 and would be willing to help if
> volunteers are needed.

>

> > > My biggest objection is w= ith=20 the proposal below is saying SIP = is=20 the

> > > right choice for the Peer= =20 Protocol. That seems not-quite-right (even
> > > if SIP is used to=20 establish the connections). The peer=20 protocol here.

> > > again, is doing several t= hings=20 -- possibly maintaining an overlay

> > > (possible RELOAD usage, althoug= h=20 we have to make sure a full = ;DHT=20 is

> > > needed, which with a cent= ral=20 tracker it may not be) and in=20 the live

> > > stream case, establishing=20 connections. Unless we resurrect dSIP

> > > (which I'd love ;) ),=20 SIP can't do the former, and I=20 still think it

> > > is way overkill for the=20 later unless we come up with a=20 lighter

> > > version. I'll take a look= =20 at the advprop draft you mention = --=20 that

> > > might be exactly what I=20 am thinking of but I have to=20 admit I haven't

> > > read it. I guess my=20 worry here is that your version o= f=20 the draft

> > > seems to be taking the=20 "I have a SIP hammer so this &nbs= p;is=20 a SIP nail"

> > > approach, and I'm not qui= te=20 convinced that's right (at least not=20 yet,

> > > but I must admit the=20 problem looks very nail shaped. Maybe=20 just a really small nail).

> >

> > Well I understand how somethin= g=20 like RELAOD might get used for th= e=20 peer to tracker protocol, but once &nbs= p;you=20 know a peer you are going to &nbs= p;try=20 and set up an RTP session with=20 and, assuming the use of RTP, =A0= it=20 seems you need a protocol were ho= st=20 =A0A can tell host B to start=20 sending the following data in an = RTP=20 steam. =A0Do I have this about=20 right?

>

> Yep, I think you do have &nbs= p;it=20 right, and like I said, given tha= t=20 description, SIP (in the old original=20 session establishment sense) may really = ;be=20 right, I'm just not quite convinced=20 yet. I'm sure you know this since= =20 you have too, but as someone who = has hacked a bunch of SIP stuff=20 together over the years, I know h= ow=20 much there is in SIP, and how=20 much of that we don't need in=20 this context. Certainly don't mean to=20 imply it isn't a pretty strong=20 candidate.

>

> David

>

> > >

> > > Reuse of SDP and RTP=20 seem like no-brainers and I definitely = agree.

> > >

> > > Anyway, interesting thoughts,and &nbs= p;my=20 2 cents...

> > >

> > > David

> > >

> > > > There are a few=20 other topics which are not addressed=20 in this

> > > > charter that worry = me=20 a lot. The currently protocols being=20 proposed

> > > > and related discussion=20 does not seem to address what is = the

> > > > incentive for anyone &nbs= p;to=20 serve content. It's clear why you=20 would

> > > > receive but not cle= ar=20 why you would bother to transmit.=20 Bittorrent

> > > > put a lot of=20 effort into this and IMHO got it = "right enough" that

> > > > the system is very = successful. I worry about it in t= his=20 work. A

> > > > second topic is tha= t=20 the desired privacy properties of the=20 system

> > > > are also pretty vag= ue.=20 If we are not clear about these=20 in the

> > > > beginning, we run t= he=20 risk of getting very bogged down = in=20 arguing about them as the protocol=20 starts to get close to done.

> > > >

> > > > To try and help=20 get things moving along, I have=20 proposed charter

> > > > bellow that is very= =20 conservative . =A0As an individual, I=20 would

> > > > probably have a sli= ght=20 preference for a more risky approach=20 than

> > > > the proposal below = but=20 .

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >=20 ------------------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The Peer-to-Peer Streamin= g=20 Protocol (PPSP) working group develops

> > > > two signaling and=20 control protocols for a peer-to-peer=20 (P2P)

> > > > streaming system for=20 transmitting live and time shifted=20 media

> > > > content with near=20 real-time delivery requirements.

> > > >

> > > > Two kinds of nodes = exist in the targeted P2P streaming=20 system,

> > > > i.e., "peers" and=20 "trackers". Peers are nodes that are=20 actively

> > > > sending and receiving=20 streamed media content, and include=20 both

> > > > statically connected host= s=20 as well as mobile devices with

> > > > connectivity and IP=20 addresses that change over time. The=20 set of

> > > > peers that are=20 participating in a streaming session=20 will

> > > > dynamically change over=20 time. Trackers are well-known nodes=20 with

> > > > stable connectivity that = maintain meta information about the

> > > > streamed content and &nbs= p;the=20 dynamic peer set. The working group &nb= sp;is=20 only addressing centralized trackers and &nbs= p;not=20 the distributed tracker.

> > > >

> > > > The PPSP WG designs= =20 a protocol for signaling and control=20 between

> > > > trackers and peers = (the=20 PPSP "tracker protocol") and a=20 signaling

> > > > and control protocol &nbs= p;for=20 communication among the peers (the=20 PPSP

> > > > "peer protocol"). The=20 two protocols enable peers to receive
> > > > streaming data within=20 the time constraints required by=20 specific

> > > > content items. =A0The=20 tracker protocol handles the initial=20 and

> > > > periodic exchange of=20 meta information between trackers and=20 peers,

> > > > such as peer lists = and content information. The peer=20 protocol

> > > > controls the advertising = and exchange of media data availability= =20 between the peers.

> > > >

> > > > The tracker protocol=20 will be modeled as much as possib= le=20 to match

> > > > the exiting bittorrent=20 protocol with appropriate extensions for=20 to

> > > > cary information that &nb= sp;is=20 needed for selection of a peer=20 suitable

> > > > for real time strea= ming.=20 Media descriptions will use the syntax = and

> > > > semantics from SDP = where=20 that is possible.

> > > >

> > > > The peer protocol w= ill=20 be be an extension of SIP and=20 use ICE for

> > > > NAT traversal.

> > > >

> > > > RTP will be used=20 for the encoding and transmission of=20 the media

> > > > content between peers.=20 PPSP is not chartered to work on = media

> > > > transmission protocols, m= edia=20 encoding techniques or other

> > > > components of a P2P= =20 streaming system such as playout schedu= ling=20 and control, etc.

> > > >

> > > > The work items of=20 the PPSP WG are:

> > > >

> > > > (1) A "problem=20 statement" document that gives an overv= iew=20 of the

> > > > ?=A0proposed P2P streamin= g=20 system, motivates the desire for

> > > > standardized

> > > > ?=A0protocols, defines th= e=20 envisioned scope of those standardized

> > > > ?=A0components and discus= ses=20 common terminologies and concepts.

> > > >

> > > > (2) A "requirements"=20 document that details the specific=20 functional,

> > > > ?=A0operational and perfo= rmance=20 requirements of the two PPSP=20 protocols.

> > > >

> > > > (3) An "architectural=20 survey" document that summarizes current=20 P2P

> > > > ?=A0streaming architectures, &n= bsp;in=20 particular tracker-based P2P

> > > > streaming

> > > > ?=A0systems, and highligh= ts=20 best current practices.

> > > >

> > > > (4) A detailed=20 specification of the PPSP peer=20 protocol.

> > > >

> > > > (5) A detailed=20 specification of the PPSP tracker=20 protocol.

> > > >

> > > > (6) A "usage guide"= =20 that describes how the two PPSP=20 protocols and

> > > > ?=A0existing IETF protoco= ls,=20 such ALTO, can be combined to cre= ate=20 a

> > > > ?=A0deployable operational &nbs= p;P2P=20 streaming system. =A0This document will

> > > > ?=A0also discuss use &nbs= p;of=20 layered media encoding and related=20 media

> > > > chunk

> > > > ?=A0descriptions in the=20 peer protocol for more robust=20 streaming.

> > > >

> > > > The work items of=20 the PPSP WG interacts with the wo= rk=20 performed in

> > > > other IETF WGs,=20 including SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT an= d=20 MMUSIC.

> > > > Whenever extensions or=20 modification to the protocols developed=20 in

> > > > other WGs are deeme= d=20 necessary, PPSP shall communicate and=20 discuss

> > > > the requirements for=20 such extensions with the relevant WGs=20 but is

> > > > not charted to make= =20 such changes.

> > > >

> > > > Goals and Milestones:
> > > >

> > > > Sep 2010 ?Submit pr= oblem=20 statement to IESG as Informational Dec<= /DIV>
> > > > 2010 ?Submit architectura= l=20 survey to IESG as Informational Dec
> > > > 2010 ?Submit requirements= =20 document to IESG as Informational Aug
> > > > 2011 ?Submit PPSP p= eer=20 protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard=20 Aug

> > > > 2011 ?Submit PPSP=20 tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

> > > > Dec 2011 ?Submit us= age=20 guide to IESG to IESG as=20 Informational

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Cullen Jennings

> > > > For corporate legal=20 information go to:

> > > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing=5Fbusiness/legal/cri/index.html=

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >=20 =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> > > > ppsp mailing list

> > > > ppsp@ietf.org

> > > >=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Cullen Jennings

> > For corporate legal information &nbs= p;go=20 to:

> > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing=5Fbusiness/legal/cri/index.html=

> >

> >

> >

> >

> =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F

> ppsp mailing list

> ppsp@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

>

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
--=====003_Dragon135658214410_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Mar 17 21:02:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981993A6ACA for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:02:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -91.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-91.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.219, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FRT_BELOW2=2.154, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OpliKbOmUBNL for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568D428C0F9 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.194]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010031812173455-136526 ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:17:34 +0800 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:01:30 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "David A. Bryan" , "Cullen Jennings" References: <92A20786-65FE-4135-8291-581EAA10FE71@cisco.com><8b2769931003130 722t2869617bq66dcf24b1afa0c3d@mail.gmail.com> <8b2769931003151746k18e4ad6er12d1548fb030c215@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201003181201305782427@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 12:17:34, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 12:01:36 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon840432737243_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:02:48 -0000 --=====003_Dragon840432737243_===== 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Exploratory Group is a c= ool idea.I=20 am also keen of contributing on this.

BR

Yunfei

zhangyunfei=

2010-03-18

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A.=20 Bryan

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2010-03-16 09:02:37

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Cullen=20 Jennings

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Charter=20 Proposal

So just a few little followup poin= ts,=20 mostly because I think I was a
bit unclear about my comment about=20 distributed trackers, inline...

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:26 &nbs= p;PM,=20 Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com > wrote:
>

> On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:22 &nbs= p;AM,=20 David A. Bryan wrote:

>

> > So in general I think th= ere=20 are a lot of good comments here, = and

> > thanks for sending things to=20 the list. A few things I had=20 comments on

> > inline...

> >

> > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at = 9:33 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.co= m=20 > wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > The PPSP could easily=20 be one of these groups were we=20 spend the first few

> > > years trying to chooses = which protocol to start with in=20 various

> > > places. That would just = remove the will to do anything in= =20 the group. I

> > > have been lurking and=20 watching this work from the beginning=20 and it seems

> > > like there are probably = many things that most the participants = agree to

> > > that we could just = ;nail=20 down in the charter. =A0Doing so = would=20 help get

> > > the work done faster=20 and provide others a clear idea t= hat=20 had not been

> > > been participating a muc= h=20 clearer idea of what this work is= =20 about.

> > >

> > > For example:

> > >

> > > Centralized or distributed=20 trackers. My belief is that most = the=20 folks

> > > want to do a=20 centralized tracker. On a side note, &n= bsp;I=20 think they would be

> > > hard to do a=20 distributed one before a centralized as= =20 centralized is much

> > > easier. The obvious prot= ocol=20 to use for a centralized one is=20 to add the

> > > needed extensions to the= =20 HTTP based version of bittorrent=20 tracker

> > > protocol. If they want=20 to do a distributed one, RELOAD w= ould=20 meet the

> > > needs and at least = ;be=20 worth looking at.

> >

> > I'm a bit confused about = ;why=20 you want to exclude distributed=20 trackers.

> > Most of the information that=20 would be exchanged -- i.e. the ma= ps=20 of

> > chunks etc -- are going = to=20 be the same between the two. I=20 am still

> > trying to get my head ar= ound=20 where the "edge" is here, but=20 from

> > hacking at ideas a bit, = it=20 seems to me that the tracker prot= ocol=20 might

> > have two parts: query/place=20 information from the peers to the=20 tracker,

> > and information between trackers.=20 If the separation is clean, it=20 might

> > be possible to only focus &nbs= p;on=20 the part between peers/trackers and=20 not

> > consider distributed trackers, but=20 otherwise I think in protocol

> > design we should at least=20 consider it...seems like a bad idea=20 to

> > design a P2P protocol that=20 neglects P2P at a different level=20 (i.e.,

> > between trackers)

>

> I was just trying to put=20 into the charter the direction I=20 thought the group wanted to go or= =20 at least surface the issues so we= =20 could feedback of the form "yep, = looks=20 good" or "nope, we want distributed".=20 Obviously I'm a bit of a fan &nbs= p;of=20 distributed approaches.

Given this, and the followup Ning = had,=20 I think things became more

crisp than my original comment, but=20 just to be clear, I think what=20 I

am getting at is that I see = the=20 tracker, as Ning mentioned, as a

logical function. It could be implemente= d=20 in a centralized way (and

likely would be), or could actually &nbs= p;use=20 a DHT in the background. It

may be that we don't really need=20 to consider that in the design of= =20 the

protocol to query the "tracker" (whateve= r=20 that may be), and I

certainly don't want to muddy things &nb= sp;by=20 insisting it be distributed.

I'd personally suggest some wording akin= =20 to what we did in P2PSIP,

where we crafted a DHT for SIP=20 but tried not to break it for=20 other

possible applications. So here, maybe we= =20 say we are building for a

centralized tracker, but will try to=20 consider the problem of a

distributed, and make sure the protocol = for the logical process of

tracker calls doesn't do something that = explicitly breaks distributed

functionality later.

I definitely don't want to give th= e=20 IESG (or anyone else, really) the

impression that there is a big gro= up=20 of us looking to do a=20 distributed

tracker up front. As far as I=20 know, there isn't.

>

> >

> > > Similarly for the media = transfer, I suspect that many people=20 would be

> > > happy with RTP. It's=20 hard to imagine anything else given=20 the end goal

> > > for this. I guess = one=20 could argue for a new protocol or= =20 a protocol that

> > > transferred data tunneled &nbs= p;in=20 the peer signaling protocol.

> >

> > Absolutely agree. Devising new=20 mechanisms for media transport seems

> > way out of scope to me.<= /DIV>
> >

> > > The peer signing protoco= l=20 needs to be able to set up = the=20 RTP sessions

> > > and work thought NATs.=20 I think the NAT traversal scheme = will=20 end up

> > > being ICE or something=20 that more or less amounts to ICE = with no TURN

> > > option given the deploym= ent=20 models. Both RTSP and SIP are=20 candidates

> > > here. In some ways = ;at=20 first glance, RTSP might seem simpler. = But a bunch

> > > of that simplicity comes= =20 from the model of it being deploy= ed=20 on server

> > > all clients can easily=20 reach without nat nightmares and less
> > > negotiation. Much of SIP= =20 complexity comes form too many=20 intermediaries

> > > and forking which would = not apply in this case. =A0We wil= l=20 have to add a

> > > bunch to RTSP to g= et=20 it to work or subtract some SIP=20 to get it to

> > > work. Not an easy = call=20 and not a call that the WG = is=20 in a great position

> > > to sort out. I'd l= ove=20 to hear others thought on it.

> > >

> > > The alternative to the=20 RTSP/SIP approach is to replace the=20 signaling and

> > > SDP with a capabilities = something more like the Advertisement /= =20 Proposal

> > > architecture the Jon and= =20 I have been discussion (See

> > > draft-peterson-sipcore-advprop ).
> >

> > Not quite as clear to me= =20 here, but I mostly agree. Definitely=20 need to

> > negotiate streams, and need to= =20 traverse NATs. SIP seems like using=20 a

> > fighter plane to kill a = fly=20 here, but may very well turn out = that many

> > of the capabilities end up=20 being needed once we get into it.= =20 The

> > problem is if the peers = are=20 speaking SIP, aren't they expected to=20 have

> > the full SIP capabilities. We = seem to need a SIP-Lite...(and yes,=20 I

> > know that has been discussed=20 oh, once or twice before, but her= e=20 it

> > would be for devices with=20 distinctly different applications)

>

> Right - for example, I see=20 no need for forking in one uses=20 SIP which greatly the use of SIP.= =20 If the the plan it to simplify=20 SIP in this way, we probably need= =20 to express that in the charter. = =A0My=20 view on using SIP is this work=20 would only need a subset of it.=20 However if we use RTSP, we need=20 to add a bunch in RTSP. Typically= =20 cutting away stuff is faster than=20 growing new stuff but that is not= =20 always true. Either could be made = ;to=20 work. So could something new.

Yep. Fully agree, particularly about hac= king=20 rather than

growing...(i.e., SIP easier than RTSP. A= t=20 least in my opinion, I'd

agree.)

One wrinkle I see is that while=20 these look good for real-time, it

isn't quite clear to me that SIP=20 (or actually even RTP on the

transport side) is right in the=20 time-shifted context. If I am

retrieving the file then playing locally= =20 ala Bit-Torrent, it seems

possible that you would use a bulk= =20 transfer block-by-block in that

scenario and assemble and play locally, = rather than stream from the

peer that has it as would be = ;the=20 case in real-time. The more I've=20 dug

into this in the last few months, = the more the real-time and

time-shifted cases differ for the action= s=20 after you contact the

tracker.

> > My first take on the pro= posed=20 charter below is that I like=20 seeing

> > things get more concrete, but = it has two problems from my=20 perspective:

> >

> > I agree bit-torrent is a = ;very=20 good model and we should be looki= ng=20 at

> > it, but the survey work = is=20 also bringing in work from some o= ther=20 very

> > widely deployed solutions (PPLive,=20 for example), and I'm personally a

> > bit reluctant to just say=20 bit-torrent wins.

>

>

>

> >

> > I'm aware that PPLive and=20 Bit-Torrent address slightly different

> > problems, which is actually my= =20 biggest concern with the charter --
> > still not clear that the = ;live=20 and time-shifted content really call=20 for

> > the same protocol or share &nb= sp;as=20 much as might be thought in=20 common.

> > Particularly for the real-time=20 streaming, I'm not at all sure

> > Bit-Torrent is the right choic= e.=20 (although I can see using a=20 tracker

> > to find candidate peers and=20 establishing live sessions between

> > them...so it's possible) =A0I'd &nbs= p;rather=20 wait just a little bit for the
> > survey document to evolve to=20 make that call, and get more=20 visibility

> > into if one protocol can = ;be=20 used for both streaming and=20 time-shifted

> > content. That's part of the=20 motivation for hacking together some

> > strawman work on the tracker=20 as well -- let's see what hard=20 problems

> > we stumble in that process. &n= bsp;I=20 agree if we don't firm it up=20 we'll spin

> > for a long time, but I=20 also don't want to jump to a=20 wrong conclusion.

>

> Fair enough - what you are=20 saying there does seem very reasonable = to me - but if we go down=20 the plan then I think we should=20 probably =A0spin up an Exploratory Grou= p=20 to go make some choices like=20 that.

+1. I'd very much support that and= =20 would be willing to help if

volunteers are needed.

> > My biggest objection is with=20 the proposal below is saying SIP = is=20 the

> > right choice for the Peer=20 Protocol. That seems not-quite-right (even
> > if SIP is used to establ= ish=20 the connections). The peer protocol=20 here.

> > again, is doing several things= =20 -- possibly maintaining an overlay

> > (possible RELOAD usage, although &nb= sp;we=20 have to make sure a full DHT=20 is

> > needed, which with a central=20 tracker it may not be) and in=20 the live

> > stream case, establishing connection= s.=20 Unless we resurrect dSIP (which

> > I'd love ;) ), SIP can't= =20 do the former, and I still think = it is way

> > overkill for the later unless = we come up with a lighter version= .=20 I'll

> > take a look at the advpr= op=20 draft you mention -- that might b= e=20 exactly

> > what I am thinking of bu= t=20 I have to admit I haven't read=20 it. I guess

> > my worry here is that yo= ur=20 version of the draft seems to be = taking the

> > "I have a SIP hammer so = this is a SIP nail" approach, and= =20 I'm not

> > quite convinced that's right (= at=20 least not yet, but I must admit=20 the

> > problem looks very nail shaped= .=20 Maybe just a really small nail).

>

> Well I understand how something=20 like RELAOD might get used for th= e=20 peer to tracker protocol, but once &nbs= p;you=20 know a peer you are going to &nbs= p;try=20 and set up an RTP session with=20 and, assuming the use of RTP, =A0= it=20 seems you need a protocol were ho= st=20 =A0A can tell host B to start=20 sending the following data in an = RTP=20 steam. =A0Do I have this about=20 right?

Yep, I think you do have it=20 right, and like I said, given=20 that

description, SIP (in the old original=20 session establishment sense) may

really be right, I'm just not quit= e=20 convinced yet. I'm sure you know

this since you have too, but as=20 someone who has hacked a bunch of= =20 SIP

stuff together over the years, I k= now=20 how much there is in SIP, and
how much of that we don't need &nb= sp;in=20 this context. Certainly don't mean

to imply it isn't a pretty strong = candidate.

David

> >

> > Reuse of SDP and RTP see= m=20 like no-brainers and I definitely=20 agree.

> >

> > Anyway, interesting thoughts,and my = 2 cents...

> >

> > David

> >

> > > There are a few ot= her=20 topics which are not addressed in = ;this=20 charter

> > > that worry me a lo= t.=20 The currently protocols being proposed = and=20 related

> > > discussion does not seem= =20 to address what is the incentive = for=20 anyone to

> > > serve content. It's clea= r=20 why you would receive but not cle= ar=20 why you

> > > would bother to transmit= .=20 Bittorrent put a lot of effort in= to=20 this and

> > > IMHO got it "right=20 enough" that the system is very=20 successful. I worry

> > > about it in this w= ork.=20 A second topic is that the desire= d=20 privacy

> > > properties of the system= =20 are also pretty vague. If we are = not clear

> > > about these in the=20 beginning, we run the risk of get= ting=20 very bogged

> > > down in arguing about=20 them as the protocol starts to ge= t=20 close to done.

> > >

> > > To try and help ge= t=20 things moving along, I have proposed=20 charter bellow

> > > that is very conservativ= e=20 . =A0As an individual, I would pr= obably=20 have a

> > > slight preference for a = more risky approach than the proposal=20 below but

> > > .

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 ------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The Peer-to-Peer Streaming=20 Protocol (PPSP) working group develops=20 two

> > > signaling and control=20 protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P)=20 streaming

> > > system for transmitting = live=20 and time shifted media content with=20 near

> > > real-time delivery=20 requirements.

> > >

> > > Two kinds of nodes=20 exist in the targeted P2P streaming=20 system, i.e.,

> > > "peers" and "trackers". = Peers=20 are nodes that are actively sending=20 and

> > > receiving streamed media=20 content, and include both statically=20 connected

> > > hosts as well as m= obile=20 devices with connectivity and IP addres= ses=20 that

> > > change over time. The=20 set of peers that are participating &nb= sp;in=20 a streaming

> > > session will dynamically=20 change over time. Trackers are well-kno= wn=20 nodes

> > > with stable connectivity = ;that=20 maintain meta information about the

> > > streamed content and the= =20 dynamic peer set. The working group &nb= sp;is=20 only

> > > addressing centralized tracker= s=20 and not the distributed tracker.

> > >

> > > The PPSP WG designs &nbs= p;a=20 protocol for signaling and control=20 between

> > > trackers and peers (the = PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signalin= g=20 and

> > > control protocol for=20 communication among the peers (the PPSP= =20 "peer

> > > protocol"). The two prot= ocols=20 enable peers to receive streaming data<= /DIV>
> > > within the time constrai= nts=20 required by specific content items.=20 =A0The

> > > tracker protocol handles = ;the=20 initial and periodic exchange of meta
> > > information between trackers=20 and peers, such as peer lists and= =20 content

> > > information. The peer=20 protocol controls the advertising and=20 exchange of

> > > media data availability=20 between the peers.

> > >

> > > The tracker protocol wil= l=20 be modeled as much as possible to= =20 match the

> > > exiting bittorrent protocol=20 with appropriate extensions for to=20 cary

> > > information that is need= ed=20 for selection of a peer suitable = for=20 real

> > > time streaming. Media=20 descriptions will use the syntax and=20 semantics

> > > from SDP where that &nbs= p;is=20 possible.

> > >

> > > The peer protocol will=20 be be an extension of SIP and=20 use ICE for NAT

> > > traversal.

> > >

> > > RTP will be used f= or=20 the encoding and transmission of the=20 media content

> > > between peers. PPSP is=20 not chartered to work on media=20 transmission

> > > protocols, media encoding=20 techniques or other components of a=20 P2P

> > > streaming system such as= =20 playout scheduling and control, etc.

> > >

> > > The work items of = the=20 PPSP WG are:

> > >

> > > (1) A "problem statement= "=20 document that gives an overview of=20 the

> > > ?=A0proposed P2P streaming=20 system, motivates the desire for=20 standardized

> > > ?=A0protocols, defines the=20 envisioned scope of those standardized

> > > ?=A0components and discusses=20 common terminologies and concepts.

> > >

> > > (2) A "requirements" doc= ument=20 that details the specific functional,

> > > ?=A0operational and performanc= e=20 requirements of the two PPSP=20 protocols.

> > >

> > > (3) An "architectural su= rvey"=20 document that summarizes current P2P

> > > ?=A0streaming architectures, i= n=20 particular tracker-based P2P streaming

> > > ?=A0systems, and highlights &n= bsp;best=20 current practices.

> > >

> > > (4) A detailed specifica= tion=20 of the PPSP peer protocol.

> > >

> > > (5) A detailed specifica= tion=20 of the PPSP tracker protocol.

> > >

> > > (6) A "usage guide"=20 that describes how the two PPSP=20 protocols and

> > > ?=A0existing IETF protocols,=20 such ALTO, can be combined to cre= ate=20 a

> > > ?=A0deployable operational P2P= =20 streaming system. =A0This document will

> > > ?=A0also discuss use of = layered media encoding and related medi= a=20 chunk

> > > ?=A0descriptions in the = peer=20 protocol for more robust streaming.

> > >

> > > The work items of = the=20 PPSP WG interacts with the work=20 performed in other

> > > IETF WGs, including SIPC= ORE,=20 AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever<= /DIV>
> > > extensions or modification &nb= sp;to=20 the protocols developed in other WGs=20 are

> > > deemed necessary, PPSP s= hall=20 communicate and discuss the requirements

> > > for such extensions with= =20 the relevant WGs but is not chart= ed=20 to make

> > > such changes.

> > >

> > > Goals and Milestones:

> > >

> > > Sep 2010 ?Submit problem= =20 statement to IESG as Informational

> > > Dec 2010 ?Submit=20 architectural survey to IESG as=20 Informational

> > > Dec 2010 ?Submit require= ments=20 document to IESG as Informational

> > > Aug 2011 ?Submit PPSP=20 peer protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

> > > Aug 2011 ?Submit PPSP=20 tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed=20 Standard

> > > Dec 2011 ?Submit usage=20 guide to IESG to IESG as=20 Informational

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > > Cullen Jennings

> > > For corporate legal=20 information go to:

> > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing=5Fbusiness/legal/cri/index.html=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >=20 =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
> > > ppsp mailing list

> > > ppsp@ietf.org

> > >=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

> > >

> >

>

>

> Cullen Jennings

> For corporate legal information go = to:

> http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing=5Fbusiness/legal/cri/index.html=

>

>

>

>

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
ppsp mailing list

ppsp@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp
--=====003_Dragon840432737243_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Mar 17 21:16:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688473A6864 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -91.816 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-91.816 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.941, BAYES_40=-0.185, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FRT_BELOW2=2.154, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dNDhkP6m11JY for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1E33A69C8 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.194]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010031812322244-137012 ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:32:22 +0800 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:16:18 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Ning Zong" , "'Cullen Jennings'" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <006401cac3e8$c187c550$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> Message-ID: <201003181216180939992@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 12:32:22, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 12:16:23, Serialize complete at 2010-03-18 12:16:23 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon106350218003_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:16:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon106350218003_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" UGxlYXNlIHNlZSBpbmxpbmUgcmVwbHkuDQoNCkJSDQpZdW5mZWkNCg0KDQoNCg0Kemhhbmd5dW5m ZWkNCjIwMTAtMDMtMTgNCg0KDQoNCreivP7Iy6O6IE5pbmcgWm9uZw0Kt6LLzcqxvOSjuiAyMDEw LTAzLTE1IDEwOjU1OjU4DQrK1bz+yMujuiAnQ3VsbGVuIEplbm5pbmdzJzsgcHBzcEBpZXRmLm9y Zw0Ks63LzaO6IA0K1vfM4qO6IFJlOiBbcHBzcF0gQ2hhcnRlciBQcm9wb3NhbA0KDQpIaSwgIEN1 bGxlbg0KVGhhbmsgIHlvdSAgZm9yICB5b3VyICBwcm9wb3NhbHMgIG9uICBQUFNQLiAgTXkgIGdl bmVyYWwgIGNvbW1lbnQgIGlzICB0aGF0ICBhbHRob3VnaCAgaXQNCmlzICB0aGUgIG1vdGl2YXRp b24gIG9mICBQUFNQICB0byAgbmFycm93ICBkb3duICB0aGUgIHByb2JsZW0gIHNwYWNlLCAgaS5l LiAgd2hhdCAgd2UgIGFyZQ0KZ29pbmcgIHRvICBzb2x2ZSwgIGl0ICBpcyAgdG9vICBlYXJseSAg 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HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4uP4a7sDaUK for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0BD23A6809 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KZG005WVMJU9G@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:16:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KZG004GFMJTBT@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:16:41 +0800 (CST) Received: from z63316 ([10.164.12.81]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KZG005FUMJRBP@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:16:41 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:16:39 +0800 From: Ning Zong In-reply-to: <201003181146223439191@chinamobile.com> To: 'zhangyunfei' , "'David A. Bryan'" , "'Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)'" Message-id: <008401cac651$ceff5110$510ca40a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_amqf+3oNVRnT7WorWIycVg)" Thread-index: AcrGTajItxGkfJy0S3mZ8Jcn+S+igQAA6p1g Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal - real-time and time-shifted X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:16:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_amqf+3oNVRnT7WorWIycVg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable For the current scope of peer protocol, +1 For launching an Exploratory Group (provided not to delay current PPSP) = to look further the choice for SIP/RTSP/RTP/etc, +1 =20 Ning _____ =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of zhangyunfei Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:46 AM To: David A. Bryan; Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal - real-time and time-shifted =20 This is also what I want to clarify.+1. Peer protocol is only for chunk availability exchange from our current discussion both in the meeting and in the mailing list. =20 Yunfei =20 _____ =20 zhangyunfei 2010-03-18 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA David A. Bryan =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2010-03-16 23:07:12 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing) =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal - real-time and = time-shifted =20 My understanding of the work of the PPSP group is yes, it = would be limited to the tracker and peer protocols. However, what Cullen was proposing went further (since he was talking about the actual negotiating of establishing a session), so my comments were = about that. My most recent understanding after the Hiroshima meeting = (and I may be confused) was that PPSP was more focused on just the tracker and peer protocol part of the puzzle for now. =20 David =20 On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 4:06 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - = CN/Beijing) wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I'd like to open a new thread for the discussion of = allowed PPSP media type. >=20 > It is true that there are lot of different requirements and behaviors of real-time streaming, VoD and file downloading. = However, PPSP is only a set of signaling protocols but not media transmission protocol. From this point, there must be common structure and signaling process flow shared by these three use cases. A "usage type" was defined to identify the type of = content transmitted in PPSP system (requirement draft -03). =A0Parameters = can be adjusted according to different "usage types" for different = kind of transmission. >=20 > As far as I know, most of the P2P streaming software, e.g. PPlive and PPStream, support both live streaming and VoD = services. Recently, PPStream even allow downloading the whole film file = to users' local disks, just like Bit-Torrent does. It means common signaling and control method can be designed for all the = "usage types". >=20 >=20 > Br > Lin Xiao >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of ext David A. Bryan > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:46 AM > To: Cullen Jennings > Cc: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal >=20 > So just a few little followup points, mostly because I = think I was a bit unclear about my comment about distributed trackers, inline... >=20 > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:22 AM, David A. Bryan wrote: > > > > > So in general I think there are a lot of good comments here, and > > > thanks for sending things to the list. A few things I = had comments on > > > inline... > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The PPSP could easily be one of these groups were = we spend the > > > > first few years trying to chooses which protocol to start with in > > > > various places. That would just remove the will to = do anything in > > > > the group. I have been lurking and watching this = work from the > > > > beginning and it seems like there are probably many things that > > > > most the participants agree to that we could just = nail down in the > > > > charter. =A0Doing so would help get the work done = faster and provide > > > > others a clear idea that had not been been = participating a much clearer idea of what this work is about. > > > > > > > > For example: > > > > > > > > Centralized or distributed trackers. My belief is that most the > > > > folks want to do a centralized tracker. On a side = note, I think > > > > they would be hard to do a distributed one before a centralized as > > > > centralized is much easier. The obvious protocol to = use for a > > > > centralized one is to add the needed extensions to = the HTTP based > > > > version of bittorrent tracker protocol. If they want = to do a > > > > distributed one, RELOAD would meet the needs and at least be worth looking at. > > > > > > I'm a bit confused about why you want to exclude distributed trackers. > > > Most of the information that would be exchanged -- i.e. = the maps of > > > chunks etc -- are going to be the same between the = two. I am still > > > trying to get my head around where the "edge" is here, = but from > > > hacking at ideas a bit, it seems to me that the = tracker protocol > > > might have two parts: query/place information from the = peers to the > > > tracker, and information between trackers. If the = separation is > > > clean, it might be possible to only focus on the part between > > > peers/trackers and not consider distributed trackers, but otherwise I > > > think in protocol design we should at least consider it...seems like > > > a bad idea to design a P2P protocol that neglects P2P = at a different > > > level (i.e., between trackers) > > > > I was just trying to put into the charter the direction = I thought the group wanted to go or at least surface the issues = so we could feedback of the form "yep, looks good" or "nope, we want distributed". Obviously I'm a bit of a fan of distributed approaches. >=20 > Given this, and the followup Ning had, I think things = became more crisp than my original comment, but just to be clear, I think what I am getting at is that I see the tracker, as = Ning mentioned, as a logical function. It could be implemented in a centralized way (and likely would be), or could actually use a DHT in the background. It may be that we don't really need = to consider that in the design of the protocol to query the "tracker" (whatever that may be), and I certainly don't want = to muddy things by insisting it be distributed. > I'd personally suggest some wording akin to what we did in P2PSIP, where we crafted a DHT for SIP but tried not to = break it for other possible applications. So here, maybe we say we = are building for a centralized tracker, but will try to consider = the problem of a distributed, and make sure the protocol for the logical process of tracker calls doesn't do something that explicitly breaks distributed functionality later. >=20 > I definitely don't want to give the IESG (or anyone else, really) the impression that there is a big group of us = looking to do a distributed tracker up front. As far as I know, = there isn't. >=20 > > > > > > > > > Similarly for the media transfer, I suspect that many people would > > > > be happy with RTP. It's hard to imagine anything = else given the end > > > > goal for this. I guess one could argue for a new protocol or a > > > > protocol that transferred data tunneled in the peer signaling protocol. > > > > > > Absolutely agree. Devising new mechanisms for media = transport seems > > > way out of scope to me. > > > > > > > The peer signing protocol needs to be able to set = up the RTP > > > > sessions and work thought NATs. I think the NAT traversal scheme > > > > will end up being ICE or something that more or = less amounts to ICE > > > > with no TURN option given the deployment models. Both RTSP and SIP > > > > are candidates here. In some ways at first glance, = RTSP might seem > > > > simpler. But a bunch of that simplicity comes from = the model of it > > > > being deployed on server all clients can easily reach without nat > > > > nightmares and less negotiation. Much of SIP = complexity comes form > > > > too many intermediaries and forking which would not = apply in this > > > > case. =A0We will have to add a bunch to RTSP to = get it to work or > > > > subtract some SIP to get it to work. Not an easy = call and not a > > > > call that the WG is in a great position to sort = out. I'd love to hear others thought on it. > > > > > > > > The alternative to the RTSP/SIP approach is to = replace the > > > > signaling and SDP with a capabilities something more = like the > > > > Advertisement / Proposal architecture the Jon and I = have been > > > > discussion (See draft-peterson-sipcore-advprop ). > > > > > > Not quite as clear to me here, but I mostly agree. Definitely need to > > > negotiate streams, and need to traverse NATs. SIP seems = like using a > > > fighter plane to kill a fly here, but may very well = turn out that > > > many of the capabilities end up being needed once we = get into it. The > > > problem is if the peers are speaking SIP, aren't they expected to > > > have the full SIP capabilities. We seem to need a SIP-Lite...(and > > > yes, I know that has been discussed oh, once or twice before, but > > > here it would be for devices with distinctly different applications) > > > > Right - for example, I see no need for forking in one = uses SIP which greatly the use of SIP. If the the plan it to simplify SIP in this way, we probably need to express that in the charter. =A0My view on using SIP is this work would only = need a subset of it. However if we use RTSP, we need to add a = bunch in RTSP. Typically cutting away stuff is faster than growing = new stuff but that is not always true. Either could be made to = work. So could something new. >=20 > Yep. Fully agree, particularly about hacking rather than growing...(i.e., SIP easier than RTSP. At least in my opinion, = I'd > agree.) >=20 > One wrinkle I see is that while these look good for = real-time, it isn't quite clear to me that SIP (or actually even RTP on the transport side) is right in the time-shifted context. If I = am retrieving the file then playing locally ala Bit-Torrent, it = seems possible that you would use a bulk transfer block-by-block in = that scenario and assemble and play locally, rather than stream from the peer that has it as would be the case in real-time. The more I've dug into this in the last few months, the more the real-time and time-shifted cases differ for the actions after = you contact the tracker. >=20 > > > My first take on the proposed charter below is that I = like seeing > > > things get more concrete, but it has two problems from = my perspective: > > > > > > I agree bit-torrent is a very good model and we should = be looking at > > > it, but the survey work is also bringing in work from = some other very > > > widely deployed solutions (PPLive, for example), and I'm personally a > > > bit reluctant to just say bit-torrent wins. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm aware that PPLive and Bit-Torrent address slightly different > > > problems, which is actually my biggest concern with the charter -- > > > still not clear that the live and time-shifted content really call > > > for the same protocol or share as much as might be = thought in common. > > > Particularly for the real-time streaming, I'm not at all sure > > > Bit-Torrent is the right choice. (although I can see = using a tracker > > > to find candidate peers and establishing live sessions between > > > them...so it's possible) =A0I'd rather wait just a little = bit for the > > > survey document to evolve to make that call, and get = more visibility > > > into if one protocol can be used for both streaming and time-shifted > > > content. That's part of the motivation for hacking = together some > > > strawman work on the tracker as well -- let's see what hard problems > > > we stumble in that process. I agree if we don't firm = it up we'll spin > > > for a long time, but I also don't want to jump to a wrong conclusion. > > > > Fair enough - what you are saying there does seem very reasonable to me - but if we go down the plan then I think = we should probably =A0spin up an Exploratory Group to go make = some choices like that. >=20 > +1. I'd very much support that and would be willing to = help if > volunteers are needed. >=20 > > > My biggest objection is with the proposal below is = saying SIP is the > > > right choice for the Peer Protocol. That seems not-quite-right (even > > > if SIP is used to establish the connections). The peer protocol here. > > > again, is doing several things -- possibly maintaining an overlay > > > (possible RELOAD usage, although we have to make sure a full DHT is > > > needed, which with a central tracker it may not be) and = in the live > > > stream case, establishing connections. Unless we resurrect dSIP > > > (which I'd love ;) ), SIP can't do the former, and I still think it > > > is way overkill for the later unless we come up with a lighter > > > version. I'll take a look at the advprop draft you = mention -- that > > > might be exactly what I am thinking of but I have to admit I haven't > > > read it. I guess my worry here is that your version of the draft > > > seems to be taking the "I have a SIP hammer so this = is a SIP nail" > > > approach, and I'm not quite convinced that's right (at = least not yet, > > > but I must admit the problem looks very nail shaped. = Maybe just a really small nail). > > > > Well I understand how something like RELAOD might get used for the peer to tracker protocol, but once you know a peer = you are going to try and set up an RTP session with and, = assuming the use of RTP, =A0it seems you need a protocol were host = =A0A can tell host B to start sending the following data in an RTP = steam. =A0Do I have this about right? >=20 > Yep, I think you do have it right, and like I said, given that description, SIP (in the old original session establishment sense) may really be right, I'm just not quite convinced yet. = I'm sure you know this since you have too, but as someone who = has hacked a bunch of SIP stuff together over the years, I know = how much there is in SIP, and how much of that we don't need in this context. Certainly don't mean to imply it isn't a pretty strong candidate. >=20 > David >=20 > > > > > > Reuse of SDP and RTP seem like no-brainers and I = definitely agree. > > > > > > Anyway, interesting thoughts,and my 2 cents... > > > > > > David > > > > > > > There are a few other topics which are not addressed = in this > > > > charter that worry me a lot. The currently protocols being proposed > > > > and related discussion does not seem to address what = is the > > > > incentive for anyone to serve content. It's clear why you would > > > > receive but not clear why you would bother to = transmit. Bittorrent > > > > put a lot of effort into this and IMHO got it = "right enough" that > > > > the system is very successful. I worry about it in = this work. A > > > > second topic is that the desired privacy properties = of the system > > > > are also pretty vague. If we are not clear about = these in the > > > > beginning, we run the risk of getting very bogged = down in arguing about them as the protocol starts to get close to done. > > > > > > > > To try and help get things moving along, I have proposed charter > > > > bellow that is very conservative . =A0As an = individual, I would > > > > probably have a slight preference for a more risky approach than > > > > the proposal below but . > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working = group develops > > > > two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) > > > > streaming system for transmitting live and time = shifted media > > > > content with near real-time delivery requirements. > > > > > > > > Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P = streaming system, > > > > i.e., "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that = are actively > > > > sending and receiving streamed media content, and = include both > > > > statically connected hosts as well as mobile devices = with > > > > connectivity and IP addresses that change over time. = The set of > > > > peers that are participating in a streaming session = will > > > > dynamically change over time. Trackers are well-known nodes with > > > > stable connectivity that maintain meta information = about the > > > > streamed content and the dynamic peer set. The = working group is only addressing centralized trackers and not the distributed tracker. > > > > > > > > The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and = control between > > > > trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and = a signaling > > > > and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP > > > > "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive > > > > streaming data within the time constraints required by specific > > > > content items. =A0The tracker protocol handles the = initial and > > > > periodic exchange of meta information between trackers = and peers, > > > > such as peer lists and content information. The peer protocol > > > > controls the advertising and exchange of media data availability between the peers. > > > > > > > > The tracker protocol will be modeled as much as = possible to match > > > > the exiting bittorrent protocol with appropriate = extensions for to > > > > cary information that is needed for selection of a = peer suitable > > > > for real time streaming. Media descriptions will use = the syntax and > > > > semantics from SDP where that is possible. > > > > > > > > The peer protocol will be be an extension of SIP = and use ICE for > > > > NAT traversal. > > > > > > > > RTP will be used for the encoding and transmission = of the media > > > > content between peers. PPSP is not chartered to work = on media > > > > transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or = other > > > > components of a P2P streaming system such as playout scheduling and control, etc. > > > > > > > > The work items of the PPSP WG are: > > > > > > > > (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an = overview of the > > > > ?=A0proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire = for > > > > standardized > > > > ?=A0protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those standardized > > > > ?=A0components and discusses common terminologies and concepts. > > > > > > > > (2) A "requirements" document that details the = specific functional, > > > > ?=A0operational and performance requirements of the two = PPSP protocols. > > > > > > > > (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current P2P > > > > ?=A0streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based = P2P > > > > streaming > > > > ?=A0systems, and highlights best current practices. > > > > > > > > (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer = protocol. > > > > > > > > (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. > > > > > > > > (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and > > > > ?=A0existing IETF protocols, such ALTO, can be = combined to create a > > > > ?=A0deployable operational P2P streaming system. =A0This document will > > > > ?=A0also discuss use of layered media encoding and = related media > > > > chunk > > > > ?=A0descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming. > > > > > > > > The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the = work performed in > > > > other IETF WGs, including SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT = and MMUSIC. > > > > Whenever extensions or modification to the protocols developed in > > > > other WGs are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss > > > > the requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs but is > > > > not charted to make such changes. > > > > > > > > Goals and Milestones: > > > > > > > > Sep 2010 ?Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational Dec > > > > 2010 ?Submit architectural survey to IESG as = Informational Dec > > > > 2010 ?Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational Aug > > > > 2011 ?Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug > > > > 2011 ?Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as = Proposed Standard > > > > Dec 2011 ?Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational > > > > > > > > > > > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Cullen Jennings > > > > For corporate legal information go to: > > > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ppsp mailing list > > > > ppsp@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cullen Jennings > > For corporate legal information go to: > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp >=20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --Boundary_(ID_amqf+3oNVRnT7WorWIycVg) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

For the current = scope of peer protocol, +1

For launching an = Exploratory Group (provided not to delay current PPSP) to look further the choice = for SIP/RTSP/RTP/etc, +1

<= /span>

Ning

From: = ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of zhangyunfei
Sent: Thursday, March 18, = 2010 11:46 AM
To: David A. Bryan; Xiao, = Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)
Cc: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] = Charter Proposal - real-time and time-shifted

This is also what I want to clarify.+1.

Peer protocol is only for chunk availability exchange from = our current discussion both in the meeting and in the mailing = list.

Yunfei

zhangyunfei

2010-03-18<= font size=3D3 face=3D=CB=CE=CC=E5>

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA David A. Bryan

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4=A3=BA 2010-03-16 23:07:12

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA Xiao, Lin (NSN - CN/Beijing)

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal - real-time and = time-shifted

My understanding of the work of the = PPSP group is yes, it would = be

limited to the tracker and peer protocols. However, what Cullen = was

proposing went further (since he was talking about the actual

negotiating of establishing a session), so my comments were about

that. My most recent understanding after = the Hiroshima meeting (and I

may be confused) was that PPSP was = more focused on just the = tracker

and peer protocol part of the puzzle = for now.

David

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 4:06 AM, Xiao, Lin (NSN - = CN/Beijing)

<lin.xiao@nsn.com > wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

> I'd like to open a new thread for the discussion of allowed PPSP media type.

>

> It is true that there are lot of different requirements and behaviors = of real-time streaming, VoD and file downloading. However, PPSP is only a set of signaling protocols but not media transmission protocol. From this point, there must be common = structure and signaling process flow shared by these three use cases. A "usage type" was defined to identify = the type of content transmitted in PPSP system (requirement draft -03). = =A0Parameters can be adjusted according to = different "usage types" for different kind of transmission.

>

> As far as I know, most of = the P2P streaming software, e.g. PPlive = and PPStream, support both live streaming = and VoD services. Recently, PPStream even = allow downloading the whole film file to users' local disks, just like = Bit-Torrent does. It means common signaling and control method can be designed for all the "usage = types".

>

>

> Br

> Lin Xiao

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext David A. = Bryan

> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:46 = AM

> To: Cullen Jennings

> Cc: ppsp@ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter = Proposal

>

> So just a few little followup = points, mostly because I think I was a bit unclear about my comment about distributed trackers, = inline...

>

> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com > wrote:

> >

> > On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:22 = AM, David A. Bryan wrote:

> >

> > > So in general I think = there are a lot of good comments = here, and

> > > thanks for sending things to = the list. A few things I had = comments on

> > > inline...

> > >

> > > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Cullen Jennings = <fluffy@cisco.com > wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The PPSP could easily = be one of these groups were we = spend the

> > > > first few years trying = to chooses which protocol to start with in

> > > > various places. That would just remove the will to do = anything in

> > > > the group. I have = been lurking and watching this work from the

> > > > beginning and it seems = like there are probably many things = that

> > > > most the participants = agree to that we could just nail = down in the

> > > > charter. =A0Doing so would help get the work = done faster and provide

> > > > others a clear idea = that had not been been participating a much clearer idea of what this = work is about.

> > > >

> > > > For = example:

> > > >

> > > > Centralized or distributed trackers. My belief is that most = the

> > > > folks want to do a centralized tracker. On a side note, I think

> > > > they would be hard = to do a distributed one before a centralized as

> > > > centralized is much = easier. The obvious protocol to use for = a

> > > > centralized one is to = add the needed extensions to the HTTP based

> > > > version of bittorrent = tracker protocol. If they want to do = a

> > > > distributed one, RELOAD = would meet the needs and at least be worth looking at.

> > >

> > > I'm a bit confused about = why you want to exclude distributed = trackers.

> > > Most of the information that would be exchanged -- i.e. the = maps of

> > > chunks etc -- are going to be the same between the two. I am still

> > > trying to get my head = around where the "edge" is here, = but from

> > > hacking at ideas a bit, it seems to me that the tracker = protocol

> > > might have two parts: = query/place information from the peers to = the

> > > tracker, and information between trackers. If the separation = is

> > > clean, it might be possible = to only focus on the part = between

> > > peers/trackers and not consider distributed trackers, but otherwise = I

> > > think in protocol design we should at least consider it...seems = like

> > > a bad idea to design a = P2P protocol that neglects P2P at a different

> > > level (i.e., between = trackers)

> >

> > I was just trying to put = into the charter the direction I thought the group wanted to go or at least surface the issues so we = could feedback of the form "yep, = looks good" or "nope, we want distributed". Obviously I'm a bit = of a fan of distributed = approaches.

>

> Given this, and the followup Ning had, I think things became more = crisp than my original comment, but just = to be clear, I think what I am getting at is that I see the tracker, as Ning mentioned, as a logical function. It could be = implemented in a centralized way (and likely would be), or could actually use = a DHT in the background. It may = be that we don't really need to = consider that in the design of the = protocol to query the "tracker" (whatever that may be), and I certainly = don't want to muddy things by insisting = it be distributed.

> I'd personally suggest some wording = akin to what we did in P2PSIP, = where we crafted a DHT for SIP but tried not to break it for = other possible applications. So here, maybe = we say we are building for a = centralized tracker, but will try to consider = the problem of a distributed, and make sure the protocol for the logical process of tracker calls doesn't do something that explicitly breaks = distributed functionality later.

>

> I definitely don't want to give = the IESG (or anyone else, really) the impression that there is a big = group of us looking to do a = distributed tracker up front. As far as I know, there isn't.

>

> >

> > >

> > > > Similarly for the media transfer, I suspect that many people would

> > > > be happy with RTP. = It's hard to imagine anything else given the end

> > > > goal for this. I = guess one could argue for a new = protocol or a

> > > > protocol that transferred = data tunneled in the peer signaling = protocol.

> > >

> > > Absolutely agree. Devising new mechanisms for media transport = seems

> > > way out of scope to = me.

> > >

> > > > The peer signing protocol needs to be able to set up = the RTP

> > > > sessions and work thought NATs. I think the NAT traversal scheme

> > > > will end up being = ICE or something that more or less amounts to ICE

> > > > with no TURN option = given the deployment models. Both RTSP and SIP

> > > > are candidates here. In some ways at first glance, RTSP = might seem

> > > > simpler. But a bunch = of that simplicity comes from the model of it

> > > > being deployed on server all clients can easily reach without nat

> > > > nightmares and less = negotiation. Much of SIP complexity comes = form

> > > > too many intermediaries = and forking which would not apply in = this

> > > > case. =A0We will have to add a bunch to RTSP to get it to work = or

> > > > subtract some SIP to = get it to work. Not an easy call and not a

> > > > call that the WG is in a great position to sort = out. I'd love to hear others thought = on it.

> > > >

> > > > The alternative to the RTSP/SIP approach is to replace = the

> > > > signaling and SDP with = a capabilities something more like = the

> > > > Advertisement / Proposal architecture the Jon and I have = been

> > > > discussion (See draft-peterson-sipcore-advprop = ).

> > >

> > > Not quite as clear to me here, but I mostly agree. Definitely need to

> > > negotiate streams, and need to traverse NATs. SIP seems like using = a

> > > fighter plane to kill a = fly here, but may very well turn = out that

> > > many of the capabilities end = up being needed once we get into = it. The

> > > problem is if the peers = are speaking SIP, aren't they expected = to

> > > have the full SIP capabilities. We seem to need a = SIP-Lite...(and

> > > yes, I know that has been discussed oh, once or twice before, but

> > > here it would be for = devices with distinctly different = applications)

> >

> > Right - for example, I see = no need for forking in one uses = SIP which greatly the use of SIP. = If the the plan it to simplify = SIP in this way, we probably need = to express that in the charter. = =A0My view on using SIP is this work would only need a subset of = it. However if we use RTSP, we = need to add a bunch in RTSP. = Typically cutting away stuff is faster than growing new stuff but that is = not always true. Either could be made = to work. So could something = new.

>

> Yep. Fully agree, particularly about hacking rather than growing...(i.e., SIP easier than RTSP. At least in = my opinion, I'd

> agree.)

>

> One wrinkle I see is that = while these look good for real-time, it isn't quite clear to me that = SIP (or actually even RTP on the transport side) is right in the time-shifted context. If I am = retrieving the file then playing locally ala Bit-Torrent, it seems possible that = you would use a bulk transfer = block-by-block in that scenario and assemble and play locally, rather than stream = from the peer that has it as would be the case in real-time. The = more I've dug into this in the last few months, the more the real-time and time-shifted cases differ for = the actions after you contact the = tracker.

>

> > > My first take on the = proposed charter below is that I like = seeing

> > > things get more concrete, but = it has two problems from my = perspective:

> > >

> > > I agree bit-torrent is a = very good model and we should be = looking at

> > > it, but the survey work is also bringing in work from some = other very

> > > widely deployed solutions (PPLive, = for example), and I'm personally = a

> > > bit reluctant to just say bit-torrent wins.

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > I'm aware that PPLive and Bit-Torrent address slightly = different

> > > problems, which is actually my biggest concern with the charter = --

> > > still not clear that the = live and time-shifted content really = call

> > > for the same protocol or = share as much as might be thought in common.

> > > Particularly for the real-time streaming, I'm not at all = sure

> > > Bit-Torrent is the right choice. (although I can see using a = tracker

> > > to find candidate peers and establishing live sessions = between

> > > them...so it's possible) = =A0I'd rather wait just a little bit = for the

> > > survey document to evolve to = make that call, and get more = visibility

> > > into if one protocol can = be used for both streaming and = time-shifted

> > > content. That's part of the motivation for hacking together = some

> > > strawman work on the tracker = as well -- let's see what hard = problems

> > > we stumble in that process. = I agree if we don't firm it up we'll spin

> > > for a long time, but I = also don't want to jump to a wrong conclusion.

> >

> > Fair enough - what you are saying there does seem very = reasonable to me - but if we go = down the plan then I think we = should probably =A0spin up = an Exploratory Group to go make some choices like that.

>

> +1. I'd very much support that = and would be willing to help = if

> volunteers are needed.

>

> > > My biggest objection is with = the proposal below is saying SIP is = the

> > > right choice for the Peer Protocol. That seems not-quite-right = (even

> > > if SIP is used to = establish the connections). The peer protocol = here.

> > > again, is doing several things = -- possibly maintaining an = overlay

> > > (possible RELOAD usage, although = we have to make sure a full DHT = is

> > > needed, which with a central tracker it may not be) and in the live

> > > stream case, establishing connections. Unless we resurrect = dSIP

> > > (which I'd love ;) ), SIP can't do the former, and I = still think it

> > > is way overkill for the = later unless we come up with a = lighter

> > > version. I'll take a look = at the advprop draft you mention -- = that

> > > might be exactly what I am thinking of but I have to = admit I haven't

> > > read it. I guess my worry here is that your version of = the draft

> > > seems to be taking the = "I have a SIP hammer so this is = a SIP nail"

> > > approach, and I'm not quite convinced that's right (at least not yet,

> > > but I must admit the = problem looks very nail shaped. Maybe just = a really small nail).

> >

> > Well I understand how something = like RELAOD might get used for the = peer to tracker protocol, but once you know a peer you are going to try and set up an RTP session with and, assuming the use of = RTP, =A0it seems you = need a protocol were host =A0A can tell host B to start = sending the following data in an RTP = steam. =A0Do I have = this about right?

>

> Yep, I think you do have it right, and like I said, given = that description, SIP (in the old = original session establishment sense) may really = be right, I'm just not quite convinced yet. I'm sure you know this = since you have too, but as someone = who has hacked a bunch of SIP = stuff together over the years, I know = how much there is in SIP, and how much of that we don't need in this context. Certainly don't mean = to imply it isn't a pretty strong candidate.

>

> David

>

> > >

> > > Reuse of SDP and RTP seem like no-brainers and I definitely = agree.

> > >

> > > Anyway, interesting thoughts,and my = 2 cents...

> > >

> > > David

> > >

> > > > There are a few = other topics which are not addressed in this

> > > > charter that worry me = a lot. The currently protocols being = proposed

> > > > and related discussion = does not seem to address what is = the

> > > > incentive for anyone to serve content. It's clear why you would

> > > > receive but not clear = why you would bother to transmit. = Bittorrent

> > > > put a lot of effort into this and IMHO got it = "right enough" that

> > > > the system is very successful. I worry about it in = this work. A

> > > > second topic is that = the desired privacy properties of the = system

> > > > are also pretty vague. = If we are not clear about these = in the

> > > > beginning, we run the = risk of getting very bogged down in arguing about them as the protocol starts to get close to = done.

> > > >

> > > > To try and help get things moving along, I have proposed charter

> > > > bellow that is very conservative . =A0As an individual, I = would

> > > > probably have a slight preference for a more risky approach than

> > > > the proposal below but = .

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > = ------------------------------------------------<= /font>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group = develops

> > > > two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer = (P2P)

> > > > streaming system for = transmitting live and time shifted = media

> > > > content with near = real-time delivery requirements.

> > > >

> > > > Two kinds of nodes = exist in the targeted P2P streaming = system,

> > > > i.e., "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively

> > > > sending and receiving = streamed media content, and include = both

> > > > statically connected hosts = as well as mobile devices = with

> > > > connectivity and IP = addresses that change over time. The set = of

> > > > peers that are = participating in a streaming session = will

> > > > dynamically change over = time. Trackers are well-known nodes = with

> > > > stable connectivity that = maintain meta information about = the

> > > > streamed content and the dynamic peer set. The working group is only addressing centralized trackers = and not the distributed = tracker.

> > > >

> > > > The PPSP WG designs = a protocol for signaling and control = between

> > > > trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling

> > > > and control protocol for communication among the peers (the = PPSP

> > > > "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to = receive

> > > > streaming data within the time constraints required by = specific

> > > > content items. = =A0The tracker protocol handles the initial = and

> > > > periodic exchange of meta information between trackers and = peers,

> > > > such as peer lists = and content information. The peer = protocol

> > > > controls the advertising = and exchange of media data availability = between the peers.

> > > >

> > > > The tracker protocol will be modeled as much as possible = to match

> > > > the exiting bittorrent = protocol with appropriate extensions for = to

> > > > cary information that is needed for = selection of a peer suitable

> > > > for real time streaming. Media descriptions will use the = syntax and

> > > > semantics from SDP where that is possible.

> > > >

> > > > The peer protocol will = be be an extension of SIP and use ICE for

> > > > NAT = traversal.

> > > >

> > > > RTP will be used for the encoding and transmission of the media

> > > > content between peers. = PPSP is not chartered to work on = media

> > > > transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or = other

> > > > components of a P2P streaming system such as playout = scheduling and control, etc.

> > > >

> > > > The work items of = the PPSP WG are:

> > > >

> > > > (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the

> > > > ?=A0proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the = desire for

> > > > standardized

> > > > ?=A0protocols, defines the envisioned scope of = those standardized

> > > > ?=A0components and discusses common terminologies and concepts.

> > > >

> > > > (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional,

> > > > ?=A0operational and performance requirements of the = two PPSP protocols.

> > > >

> > > > (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes = current P2P

> > > > ?=A0streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based = P2P

> > > > streaming

> > > > ?=A0systems, and highlights best current = practices.

> > > >

> > > > (4) A detailed = specification of the PPSP peer = protocol.

> > > >

> > > > (5) A detailed = specification of the PPSP tracker = protocol.

> > > >

> > > > (6) A "usage = guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and

> > > > ?=A0existing IETF protocols, such ALTO, can be combined to create = a

> > > > ?=A0deployable operational P2P streaming system. = =A0This document will

> > > > ?=A0also discuss use of layered media = encoding and related media

> > > > chunk

> > > > ?=A0descriptions in the peer protocol for more = robust streaming.

> > > >

> > > > The work items of = the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in

> > > > other IETF WGs, including = SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and = MMUSIC.

> > > > Whenever extensions or modification to the protocols developed = in

> > > > other WGs are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss

> > > > the requirements for such = extensions with the relevant WGs but = is

> > > > not charted to make = such changes.

> > > >

> > > > Goals and = Milestones:

> > > >

> > > > Sep 2010 ?Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational = Dec

> > > > 2010 ?Submit architectural = survey to IESG as Informational = Dec

> > > > 2010 ?Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational = Aug

> > > > 2011 ?Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed = Standard Aug

> > > > 2011 ?Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed = Standard

> > > > Dec 2011 ?Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Cullen Jennings

> > > > For corporate legal = information go to:

> > > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html=

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > = _______________________________________________

> > > > ppsp mailing = list

> > > > ppsp@ietf.org

> > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp=

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Cullen Jennings

> > For corporate legal information go = to:

> > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html=

> >

> >

> >

> >

> _______________________________________________

> ppsp mailing list

> ppsp@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp=

>

__________________________= _____________________

ppsp mailing list

ppsp@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/ppsp

--Boundary_(ID_amqf+3oNVRnT7WorWIycVg)-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Mar 17 21:34:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E3C3A67CF for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -90.674 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-90.674 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.784, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FRT_BELOW2=2.154, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_62=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xSI0oLN5EzJg for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F383A68EC for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.194]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010031812504196-137432 ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:50:41 +0800 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:34:38 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Martin Stiemerling" , "Cullen Jennings" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <92A20786-65FE-4135-8291-581EAA10FE71@cisco.com> <547F018265F92642B577B986577D671C012A2DC4@VENUS.office> Message-ID: <201003181234381873728@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 12:50:41, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-18 12:34:40, Serialize complete at 2010-03-18 12:34:40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon560487546436_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Charter Proposal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:34:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon560487546436_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQ3VsbGVuLGFsbCwNCiAgIEZpcnN0IG9mIGFsbCB0aGFua3MgQ3VsbGVuIGZvciB0aGUgY2hh cnRlciBwcm9wb3NhbC4gV2UgYXJlIGJldHRlciBrbm93aW5nIHRoZSBJRVNHIGNvbmNlcm5zLiBB bmQgdGhhbmtzIHNvIG11Y2ggZm9yIHRoZSBob3QgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvbiB0aGUgY2hhcnRlci5Q bGVhc2UgYWxsb3cgbWUgdG8gc3VtbWFyaXplIHNvbWUgb2Ygb3VyIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gcG9pbnRz IHRvIG1ha2UgYWxsIGVhc2lseSB1bmRlcnN0b29kLg0KMSkgYml0dG9ycmVudCAgcHJvdG9jb2wg IGFzICBiYXNpcyAgZm9yICB0aGUgIHRyYWNrZXIgIGNvbW11bmljYXRpb246IEFmdGVyIGRpc2N1 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L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcHBzcDwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon560487546436_=====-- From softgear@etri.re.kr Wed Mar 17 23:07:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA40A3A67FF for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:07:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u9oacdRQyjHw for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email2.etri.info (email2.etri.re.kr [129.254.16.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0288D3A6914 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from softgearpc ([129.254.232.20]) by email2.etri.info with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:07:25 +0900 From: "Softgear Ko" To: References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:07:36 +0900 Message-ID: <009701cac661$4e8e5ac0$ebab1040$@re.kr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01CAC6AC.BE7602C0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acq7Wmr+wOruX06oT1S2S/R4eRpbrwLBJ/YA Content-Language: ko X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2010 06:07:25.0802 (UTC) FILETIME=[48256CA0:01CAC661] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] New draft about P2P CDN X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:07:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CAC6AC.BE7602C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Lichun Li. I think this draft shows good overview of CDN supported P2P streaming service. I think, basically, the idea is very similar to our draft: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-softgear-p2psip-iptv/ which uses RELOAD overlay for P2P streaming. However, your draft considers "chunk" based P2P streaming while our draft considers the live streaming only. I think we can share the idea each other. Could you add our draft to References in your draft? Additionally, in your draft, only tracker (tracker overlay) can do "pushing". Why don't add the function which CSCs or other entities requests a cacher to push/pull content from others? Regards, Softgear Ko From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of li.lichun1@zte.com.cn Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 2:20 PM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] New draft about P2P CDN Dear all, We have submitted a new Internet draft entitled "A P2P CDN based Content Sharing System using PPSP and RELOAD". It can be accessed at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-ppsp-p2p-cdn-00.txt Any comments are welcome. Thanks. Abstract: This document defines a P2P CDN (Content Delivery Network) based content sharing system using PPSP (Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol) and RELOAD (REsource LOcation And Discovery). The P2P CDN provides a unified platform for service/content providers and content sharing users to share content efficiently and safely. The shared contents may include streaming media, files, etc. This content sharing system uses PPSP as signaling protocol for P2P content distributing, and uses RELOAD to improve reliability and scalability. More specifically, RELOAD is used to construct P2P overlays storing of massive contents and locating contents reliably. Best Regards, Lichun Li -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CAC6AC.BE7602C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello, Lichun Li.

I think this draft shows good overview of CDN supported P2P streaming = service. I think, basically, the idea is very similar to our = draft:

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-softgear-p2psip-iptv/ = ; which uses RELOAD overlay for P2P streaming.

However, your draft considers "chunk" based P2P streaming while our = draft considers the live streaming only. I think we can share the idea each = other. Could you add our draft to References in your draft?

Additionally, in your draft, only tracker (tracker overlay) can do = "pushing". Why don't add the function which CSCs or other entities requests a cacher to push/pull content from others?

Regards,

Softgear Ko

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = li.lichun1@zte.com.cn
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 2:20 PM
To: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: [ppsp] New draft about P2P CDN

Dear = all,

We have = submitted a new Internet draft entitled "A P2P CDN based Content Sharing System = using PPSP and RELOAD".
It can be = accessed at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-ppsp-p2p-cdn-00.txt Any comments = are welcome. Thanks. Abstract: This document defines a P2P CDN (Content Delivery Network) = based content sharing system using PPSP (Peer to Peer Streaming = Protocol) and RELOAD (REsource LOcation And Discovery). The P2P CDN = provides a unified platform for service/content providers and content = sharing users to share content efficiently and safely. The shared = contents may include streaming media, files, etc. This content sharing = system uses PPSP as signaling protocol for P2P content distributing, = and uses RELOAD to improve reliability and scalability. = More specifically, RELOAD is used to construct P2P overlays storing = of massive contents and locating contents reliably. = = = Best Regards, Lichun Li
-------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The&nbs= p;information contained in this mail is sol= ely property of the sender's organization. = This mail communication is confidential. Recipie= nts named above are obligated to maintain&n= bsp;secrecy and are not permitted to disclo= se the contents of this communication to&nb= sp;others. This email and any files transmitte= d with it are confidential and intended&nbs= p;solely for the use of the individual = ;or entity to whom they are addressed. = ;If you have received this email in er= ror please notify the originator of the&nbs= p;message. Any views expressed in this mess= age are those of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for&n= bsp;viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam syste= m.
------=_NextPart_000_0098_01CAC6AC.BE7602C0-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Mar 18 18:48:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1639E3A6821 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:48:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.793, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stUQXzw1sexg for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E17A3A67E6 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.113]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010031910042871-4334 ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:04:28 +0800 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:48:18 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <201003190948183430098@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-19 10:04:28, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-19 09:48:27, Serialize complete at 2010-03-19 09:48:27 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon585360362040_=====" Cc: "gonzalo.camarillo" Subject: [ppsp] Please send the pres slides for PPSP session to Gonzalo and me X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:48:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon585360362040_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Hi all, Just to remind to send the pres slides for PPSP session to Gonzalo and me before Sunday evening according to the current agenda.Please let Gonzalo and me know if there are any change for the requested pres.Thanks. BR Yunfei zhangyunfei 2010-03-19 --=====003_Dragon585360362040_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Hi all,    Just to remind to send the pres slides for PPSP session to Gonzalo and me before Sunday evening according to the current agenda.Please let Gonzalo and me know if there are any change for the requested pres.Thanks. BR Yunfei zhangyunfei 2010-03-19 --=====003_Dragon585360362040_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Mar 18 23:03:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20F23A6973; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:03:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -91.371 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-91.371 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.928, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_39=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HB5saNThcOKu; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596DC3A68ED; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.113]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010031914200337-11628 ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:20:03 +0800 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:03:50 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "JeffreyHo" , "'David A. Bryan'" References: <8b2769931003171914k707fd83cw4e3e600b82429b04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201003191403507969783@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-19 14:20:03, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-19 14:04:04, Serialize complete at 2010-03-19 14:04:04 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon564426256602_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , "p2psip@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] [P2PSIP] Is P2PSIP RELOAD not suitable to be leverageforbothP2P Live Streaming and VoD Service? X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:03:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon564426256602_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" QmVzaWRlcyB0aGUgcGFwZXIgbWVudGlvbmVkIGluIHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGxpc3QsIHNvbWUg cmVmZXJlbmNlIGZvciBjb21wYXJpc2lvbiBvZiB0cmFja2VyIGFuZCBESFQgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2Ug Y2FuIGJlIGZvdW5kIGluIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgcGFwZXIuU29tZSBjb21wYXJhdGl2ZSByZXN1 bHRzIGluIHRoaXMgcGFwZXIgc2hvd2VkIHRoYXQgYQ0Kc2luZ2xlIHRyYWNrZXIvbXVsdGlwbGUg dHJhY2tlciBzeXN0ZW0gcHJvdmlkZXMgYmV0dGVyIHBlcmZvcm1hbmNlIHRoYW4gREhUIG1ldGhv ZHMuIEJ1dCB0aGlzIGlzIGJhc2VkIG9uIEJpdHRvcnJlbnQgc3lzdGVtLCBzb21lIGRpZmZlcmVu Y2UgZnJvbSBsaXZlIHN0cmVhbWluZyBvciBWb0QuIFNvIGp1c3QgZm9yIHlvdXIgaW5mb3JtYXRp 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[127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3224F3A68A7 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dXMnnxh1FNkk for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com (mail-pv0-f172.google.com [74.125.83.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83F13A66B4 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pvh1 with SMTP id 1so2069553pvh.31 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:35:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9W4gMWmGM3y5f+3DGDA0/dPVWZ5M2sSYOsjn+xOrdTw=; b=tLqlm0IU5AnDsSteBHrb8OisLWFc54QIrxWxjHcqTN+wGXjytue8B6udyKfoOvrJKi Vc5Ds09CsdYMCQuROi77DC0FEHoKQGMsCP0hh9y8QneJXIrbceJgm8s6bCB+lifGA80s WVv1dAxfa2rQ4gJsX/Qq0zSaIeeUwUzRaRSe0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GBF5zgx/EwQbR+E+9YYuJwgVT7aft61BG3N+JxXfXmohPvDr8dQ/Tyvik49y9/Y+ob eBhmhGBXmehaes+XUGtFrcf10Oep0pPdMYhYVWYB9BGa2wn+cr2XjQvp6tw521hKbMB4 +xK2XK3Vf8sKBc6RzCcm/fgGn7WImIsU03F/A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.179.8 with SMTP id b8mr3105053rvf.99.1269070514054; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:35:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <009701cac661$4e8e5ac0$ebab1040$@re.kr> References: <009701cac661$4e8e5ac0$ebab1040$@re.kr> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 15:35:14 +0800 Message-ID: <7d6b50691003200035p453b81d7w40a12a8d8721dc75@mail.gmail.com> From: lichun li To: Softgear Ko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] New draft about P2P CDN X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 07:35:07 -0000 Hi I'm glad to share ideas with you and other people with common interests. I will add your draft to references in next version. Comments about "push", please see inline. On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Softgear Ko wrote: > Hello, Lichun Li. > > > > I think this draft shows good overview of CDN supported P2P streaming > service. I think, basically, the idea is very similar to our draft: > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-softgear-p2psip-iptv/=A0 which uses > RELOAD overlay for P2P streaming. > > However, your draft considers "chunk" based P2P streaming while our draft > considers the live streaming only. I think we can share the idea each oth= er. > Could you add our draft to References in your draft? > > Additionally, in your draft, only tracker (tracker overlay) can do > "pushing". Why don't add the function which CSCs or other entities reques= ts > a cacher to push/pull content from others? Well, I have considered this before. I think this function is not necessary if CSCs ask tracker for peer list. But if CSCs request every chunk from nearby cachers and don't ask tracker for peer list, CSCs need this function. What do you think? > > > > Regards, > > Softgear Ko > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > li.lichun1@zte.com.cn > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 2:20 PM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] New draft about P2P CDN > > > > Dear all, > > We have submitted a new Internet draft entitled "A P2P CDN based Content > Sharing System using PPSP and RELOAD". > It can be accessed at: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-ppsp-p2p-cdn-00.txt > Any comments are welcome. Thanks. > > Abstract: > This document defines a P2P CDN (Content Delivery Network) based > content sharing system using PPSP (Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol) > and RELOAD (REsource LOcation And Discovery). =A0The P2P CDN provides a > unified platform for service/content providers and content sharing > users to share content efficiently and safely. =A0The shared contents > may include streaming media, files, etc. =A0This content sharing system > uses PPSP as signaling protocol for P2P content distributing, and > uses RELOAD to improve reliability and scalability. =A0More > specifically, RELOAD is used to construct P2P overlays storing of > massive contents and locating contents reliably. > > Best Regards, > Lichun Li > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > ZTE=A0Information=A0Security=A0Notice:=A0The=A0information=A0contained=A0= in=A0this=A0mail=A0is=A0solely=A0property=A0of=A0the=A0sender's=A0organizat= ion.=A0This=A0mail=A0communication=A0is=A0confidential.=A0Recipients=A0name= d=A0above=A0are=A0obligated=A0to=A0maintain=A0secrecy=A0and=A0are=A0not=A0p= ermitted=A0to=A0disclose=A0the=A0contents=A0of=A0this=A0communication=A0to= =A0others. > > This=A0email=A0and=A0any=A0files=A0transmitted=A0with=A0it=A0are=A0confid= ential=A0and=A0intended=A0solely=A0for=A0the=A0use=A0of=A0the=A0individual= =A0or=A0entity=A0to=A0whom=A0they=A0are=A0addressed.=A0If=A0you=A0have=A0re= ceived=A0this=A0email=A0in=A0error=A0please=A0notify=A0the=A0originator=A0o= f=A0the=A0message.=A0Any=A0views=A0expressed=A0in=A0this=A0message=A0are=A0= those=A0of=A0the=A0individual=A0sender. > > This=A0message=A0has=A0been=A0scanned=A0for=A0viruses=A0and=A0Spam=A0by= =A0ZTE=A0Anti-Spam=A0system. > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > --=20 Sincerely yours, Lichun Li ZTE Corporation From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sat Mar 20 22:18:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2923A677C for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -93.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-93.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.317, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_41=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_73=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zDCLfzrICvGI for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B675E3A68AA for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010032113342752-4847 ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:34:27 +0800 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:18:06 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-21 13:34:28, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-21 13:18:14, Serialize complete at 2010-03-21 13:18:14 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon027768354003_=====" Subject: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:18:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME 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PEZPTlQgDQpmYWNlPVZlcmRhbmE+Jm5ic3A7PC9GT05UPjwvbzpwPjwvU1BBTj48L1A+PC9ESVY+ PC9GT05UPjwvRElWPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPVZlcmRhbmEgc2l6ZT0yPjwvRk9OVD4mbmJz cDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVYgYWxpZ249bGVmdD48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPVZlcmRhbmEgc2l6ZT0yPg0KPEhS IHN0eWxlPSJXSURUSDogMTIycHg7IEhFSUdIVDogMnB4IiBTSVpFPTI+DQo8L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+ DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGNvbG9yPSNjMGMwYzA+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT1WZXJkYW5hIHNpemU9Mj56aGFu Z3l1bmZlaTwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT1WZXJkYW5hIHNpemU9Mj4yMDEw LTAzLTIxPC9GT05UPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon027768354003_=====-- From lars.eggert@nokia.com Sun Mar 21 09:49:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104DB3A6A01; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:49:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.441 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.441 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.573, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWhb83p4tEel; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4363A6A0D; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o2LGneHC018942; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:49:40 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:49:39 +0200 Received: from mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com ([147.243.1.48]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:49:39 +0200 Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o2LGncDB018948 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:49:38 +0200 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-20-972650418; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:49:02 -0700 Message-Id: References: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> To: zhangyunfei X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [0.0.0.0]); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:49:12 +0200 (EET) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2010 16:49:39.0391 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F31BCF0:01CAC916] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: ppsp@ietf.org, IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 16:49:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail-20-972650418 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-19-972650344 --Apple-Mail-19-972650344 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, thank you for the revised charter proposal! I've reviewed the changes, = and there were some additions that I didn't see discussed much on the = list and I'm hence hesitant to make this late in the chartering process = (e.g., the text related to caches and CDNs). I also tightened up the proposed text in a few other places, decided to = not advance the milestones to the earlier dates you proposed (the WG = obviously doesn't need to wait to submit work early), and made some very = minor other changes. I'm attaching the resulting charter text and a diff to the version that = went originally for IESG approval below. Lars --Apple-Mail-19-972650344 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ppsp-final.txt Content-Type: text/plain; x-mac-type=2A2A2A2A; x-mac-creator=48647261; x-unix-mode=0644; name="ppsp-final.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) -------------------------------------------------- Current Status: Proposed Working Group Chair(s): TBD Transport Area Director(s): Magnus Westerlund Lars Eggert Transport Area Advisor: Lars Eggert Mailing Lists: ppsp@ietf.org Description of Working Group: The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming system for transmitting live and time-shifted media content with near real-time delivery requirements. Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that change over time. The set of peers that are participating in a streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers are well-known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set. Trackers can be organized in centralized or distributed ways. The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items. The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of media data availability between the peers. It is envisioned that the tracker protocol will be modeled as a request/response protocol between peers and trackers, and will carry information needed for the selection of peers suitable for real-time streaming. The peer protocol is envisioned to be modeled as a gossip-like protocol with periodic, pairwise exchanges of neighbor and media chunk availability information. Both protocols will be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be met by TCP), likely in combination with ICE for NAT traversal support. RTP, TCP or UDP may be used for the encoding and transmission of the media content between peers. PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout, scheduling and control, etc. The work items of the PPSP WG are: (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those standardized components and discusses common terminologies and concepts. (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional, operational and performance requirements of the two PPSP protocols. (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming systems, and highlights best current practices. (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and existing IETF protocols, such as P2PSIP or ALTO, can be combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system. This document may also discuss variants of such a system that, for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming. The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs. PPSP is not chartered to design and specify such changes. Goals and Milestones: Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational --Apple-Mail-19-972650344 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ppsp-final-from-.diff.html Content-Type: text/html; x-unix-mode=0644; name="ppsp-final-from-.diff.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diff: ppsp.txt - ppsp-final.txt ppsp.txt ppsp-final.txt skipping to change at line 22 skipping to change at line 22 Transport Area Advisor: Transport Area Advisor: Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com> Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com> Mailing Lists: Mailing Lists: ppsp@ietf.org ppsp@ietf.org Description of Working Group: Description of Working Group: The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming system for transmitting live and pre-recorded media content with near system for transmitting live and time-shifted media content with near real-time delivery requirements. real-time delivery requirements. Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that change over time. The set of peers that are participating addresses that change over time. The set of peers that are participating in a streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers in a streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers are well-known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta are well-known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set. information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set. Trackers can be organized in centralized or distributed ways. The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items. data within the time constraints required by specific content items. The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of media data availability between the peers. exchange of media data availability between the peers. Existing IETF and other standards will be used for the encoding and It is envisioned that the tracker protocol will be modeled as a transmission of the media content between peers. PPSP is not chartered request/response protocol between peers and trackers, and will carry to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques information needed for the selection of peers suitable for real-time or other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout streaming. The peer protocol is envisioned to be modeled as a scheduling and control, etc. gossip-like protocol with periodic, pairwise exchanges of neighbor and media chunk availability information. Both protocols will be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be met by TCP), likely in combination with ICE for NAT traversal support. RTP, TCP or UDP may be used for the encoding and transmission of the media content between peers. PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout, scheduling and control, etc. The work items of the PPSP WG are: The work items of the PPSP WG are: (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those standardized components and discusses common terminologies and standardized components and discusses common terminologies and concepts. concepts. (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional, (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional, skipping to change at line 70 skipping to change at line 79 (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming systems, and highlights best current practices. streaming systems, and highlights best current practices. (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and existing IETF protocols, such as RELOAD, ALTO or RTSP, can be existing IETF protocols, such as P2PSIP or ALTO, can be combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system. combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system. This document may also discuss variants of such a system that, This document may also discuss variants of such a system that, for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming. descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming. The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs Whenever extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the WGs are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs. The design requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs. PPSP is not of such extensions is out of scope for PPSP. chartered to design and specify such changes. Goals and Milestones: Goals and Milestones: Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational End of changes. 5 change blocks. 12 lines changed or deleted 21 lines changed or added This html diff was produced by rfcdiff 1.38. 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.326, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R6Zq6OTpZ5FV; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2303A6359; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010032201460166-9973 ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 01:46:01 +0800 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 01:29:37 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Lars Eggert" References: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201003220129364681589@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-22 01:46:02, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-22 01:29:45, Serialize complete at 2010-03-22 01:29:45 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon242608831263_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:29:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon242608831263_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" 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ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373783A685A; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:52:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.706 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.706 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.237, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4oJNxQHNBu5C; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630603A682E; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o2LHqhVb019911; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:52:44 -0500 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:52:42 +0200 Received: from mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com ([147.243.1.48]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:52:42 +0200 Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o2LHqfrw000605 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:52:41 +0200 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-24-976452593; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <201003220129364681589@chinamobile.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:52:24 -0700 Message-Id: <9606A23F-5315-4113-9D3B-BA14DD1741E1@nokia.com> References: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> <201003220129364681589@chinamobile.com> To: zhangyunfei X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [0.0.0.0]); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:52:34 +0200 (EET) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2010 17:52:42.0678 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E358560:01CAC91F] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:52:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail-24-976452593 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2010-3-21, at 10:29, zhangyunfei wrote: > Thanks Lars for the review and modification.I am okay for the = changes.Thanks again. the IESG only had a few minutes during our breakfast meeting this = morning to discuss the charter. In the end, we ran out of time, and = decided to run PPSP as a BOF tomorrow, to quickly discuss and clarify = the few remaining points related to the charter, before going into the = originally planned agenda. We're very close to agreeing on a charter, = and this is probably the quickest way to reach an agreement. Lars= --Apple-Mail-24-976452593 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGbDCCAyUw ggKOoAMCAQICEAdjk36sXKbnVn15S0/qUp0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA5MDYxNTExMjYxNFoXDTEwMDYxNTExMjYx NFowXDEPMA0GA1UEBBMGRWdnZXJ0MQ0wCwYDVQQqEwRMYXJzMRQwEgYDVQQDEwtMYXJzIEVnZ2Vy dDEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYVbGFycy5lZ2dlcnRAbm9raWEuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA7mR8A+Pn0/FsUkMX6Pyjw+FL3IFcJk8GaKV5VJ40TMI0Wh8oq20cqA9X uqnVDW9WztKwH+o+msJenLwWpprbpJm4TImYGbnUJxYyN8gb81aiX1Bw2xCpJ5z3H2+8DsReJLuY Rdl4bVvaIxLIL4odmfsRwzPyNkOK8LRtfl6OPcaDOlFWzbikULfIVGGu7BqK4lxQSpYwwpZkOMOB 6nnBSfUOtBEmqO+qZG/nL/JxWFV5vxQgg4XHbsMMTxFf6+ji18BD09BUIfDLTuJoCzFmQhrM9vLT VuRhHWSL20LoafGjXv6mPt3i9IGJHpVb2dMQUgOgRyWHTKiUJVU/rUTdWwIDAQABo14wXDAqBgUr ZQEEAQQhMB8CAQAwGjAYAgEEBBNMMnVNeWZmQk5VYk5KSmNkWjJzMCAGA1UdEQQZMBeBFWxhcnMu ZWdnZXJ0QG5va2lhLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBADUx+67n98wt I1vydB90HeSZP4Y64VCxxb0NxGGFvfc2+JdVKeHJ/xT+l+ygYKsWNwJJprkPi4WZ5G0crkq4VK1H 5drEJIztpSPVfWI05vPidaaGuuuCR+6MvJMtOTEYEvc/6eovBnkrzRf9x5x5EyuJXAWTeuBADg80 QI3vQ1tZMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTAT BgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3duMRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUg Q29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIG A1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25h bC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoXDTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjEL MAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNV BAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUA A4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAK MNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7 n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAw QwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29tL1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJl ZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAcMRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRl TGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswNo2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9M Ibj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSeJVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowg T2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/XV9lTzGCAxAwggMMAgEBMHYw YjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAq BgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhAHY5N+rFym51Z9eUtP 6lKdMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggFvMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkF MQ8XDTEwMDMyMTE3NTIyNVowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFGuZoefLmp0OODvSjUEmgFM8dNgrMIGF BgkrBgEEAYI3EAQxeDB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGlu ZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBD QQIQB2OTfqxcpudWfXlLT+pSnTCBhwYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxeKB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUw IwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVy c29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQB2OTfqxcpudWfXlLT+pSnTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AASCAQDPasOtDtETcVpkvyaEm4LTT7zULWdv7qM+DgzwIkm1ZUxNokSi3t0EECdWz/sdwlLE5q+Z G4YvOCgUKCYMbsprKoNuwZt/MGIAF+B/bJ09BC/ED3H0nDIcR9IAhWW/EvR0D1Bu1VTFSHhIEfKb CeyRy8mxb1akTZqNQEjXTC09JtlOytI2i8JHNMYIMV2J9DC3HYSF8hUCtjPLRcreSsjP/KD8xUhI EQphDfavOW8vd0uqXil2XQs11F1BsIUg8zy1slEdZOUdGMKeMFKY1J9pPzF6bspHgeOWuw01nt6K coinAfPHMMi0BLJzicO8/a2dyy3yOSv8yNmT39UBINNxAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-24-976452593-- From fluffy@cisco.com Sun Mar 21 11:23:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C70D33A68A2; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:23:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L4UgcORRoxTz; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147683A684C; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAOMApkurRN+J/2dsb2JhbACbOnOgNJdbhH0Egx4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,284,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="500303042" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Mar 2010 18:24:13 +0000 Received: from rcdn-vpn-client-10-89-4-117.cisco.com (rcdn-vpn-client-10-89-4-117.cisco.com [10.89.4.117]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o2LIOCZ8029716; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:24:13 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: <9606A23F-5315-4113-9D3B-BA14DD1741E1@nokia.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:22:48 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> <201003220129364681589@chinamobile.com> <9606A23F-5315-4113-9D3B-BA14DD1741E1@nokia.com> To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:23:58 -0000 I want to emphasize too that the discussion has not been about if we = should do a WG or not, everyone is supportive of that. What we are = trying to focus on is how can write a charter that helps the WG get to a = solution in an expedient way.=20 Cullen On Mar 21, 2010, at 10:52 , Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On 2010-3-21, at 10:29, zhangyunfei wrote: >> Thanks Lars for the review and modification.I am okay for the = changes.Thanks again. >=20 > the IESG only had a few minutes during our breakfast meeting this = morning to discuss the charter. In the end, we ran out of time, and = decided to run PPSP as a BOF tomorrow, to quickly discuss and clarify = the few remaining points related to the charter, before going into the = originally planned agenda. We're very close to agreeing on a charter, = and this is probably the quickest way to reach an agreement. >=20 > Lars_______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp Cullen Jennings For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sun Mar 21 12:23:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522973A6A13; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:23:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.308, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iIDwI5FooV+L; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7AA3A6A21; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010032203394922-10664 ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:39:49 +0800 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:23:25 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Lars Eggert" References: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> <201003220129364681589@chinamobile.com> <9606A23F-5315-4113-9D3B-BA14DD1741E1@nokia.com> Message-ID: <201003220322185627173@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-22 03:39:49, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-22 03:23:34, Serialize complete at 2010-03-22 03:23:34 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon734442232612_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:23:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon734442232612_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgTGFycywNCiAgIEluIG91ciBvcmlnaW5hbCBwbGFubmVkIGFnZW5kYSwgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHRv cGljIGlzIGNoYXJ0ZXIgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBmb3IgNTBtaW5zLiBXaXNoIHRoaXMgaGVscHMgdG8g Y2xhcmlmeSB0aGUgcmVtYWluaW5nIHBvaW50cy5UaGFua3MuDQoNCkJSDQpZdW5mZWkNCg0KDQoN 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-92.735 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.735 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.292, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1KcVc7E9Enky; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232BC3A635F; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010032203504717-10743 ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:50:47 +0800 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 03:34:22 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Cullen Jennings" , "Lars Eggert" References: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> <201003220129364681589@chinamobile.com> <9606A23F-5315-4113-9D3B-BA14DD1741E1@nokia.com> Message-ID: <201003220334216871377@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-22 03:50:47, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-22 03:34:27, Serialize complete at 2010-03-22 03:34:27 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon432337086352_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:34:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon432337086352_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R8V5+XJoWD-n; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81FE33A635F; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o2LJUs8E000846; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:30:56 -0500 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:30:54 +0200 Received: from mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com ([147.243.1.48]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:30:54 +0200 Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o2LJUqrZ025774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:30:52 +0200 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-26-982344795; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <201003220322185627173@chinamobile.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:30:37 -0700 Message-Id: <89D81370-07EF-46FE-9D67-183A66041293@nokia.com> References: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> <201003220129364681589@chinamobile.com> <9606A23F-5315-4113-9D3B-BA14DD1741E1@nokia.com> <201003220322185627173@chinamobile.com> To: zhangyunfei X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [0.0.0.0]); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:30:45 +0200 (EET) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2010 19:30:54.0171 (UTC) FILETIME=[05D002B0:01CAC92D] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" , IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:37:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail-26-982344795 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Perfect - thank you very much. On 2010-3-21, at 12:23, zhangyunfei wrote: > Hi Lars, > In our original planned agenda, the first topic is charter = discussion for 50mins. Wish this helps to clarify the remaining = points.Thanks. >=20 > BR > Yunfei >=20 > ________________________________ > zhangyunfei > 2010-03-22 > ________________________________ > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Lars Eggert > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2010-03-22 02:35:13 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A zhangyunfei > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A ppsp@ietf.org; IESG IESG > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On 2010-3-21, at 10:29, zhangyunfei wrote: >> Thanks Lars for the review and modification.I am okay for = the changes.Thanks again. >=20 > the IESG only had a few minutes during our breakfast meeting = this morning to discuss the charter. In the end, we ran out = of time, and decided to run PPSP as a BOF tomorrow, to = quickly discuss and clarify the few remaining points related to = the charter, before going into the originally planned agenda. = We're very close to agreeing on a charter, and this is = probably the quickest way to reach an agreement. >=20 > Lars --Apple-Mail-26-982344795 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGbDCCAyUw ggKOoAMCAQICEAdjk36sXKbnVn15S0/qUp0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA5MDYxNTExMjYxNFoXDTEwMDYxNTExMjYx NFowXDEPMA0GA1UEBBMGRWdnZXJ0MQ0wCwYDVQQqEwRMYXJzMRQwEgYDVQQDEwtMYXJzIEVnZ2Vy dDEkMCIGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYVbGFycy5lZ2dlcnRAbm9raWEuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA7mR8A+Pn0/FsUkMX6Pyjw+FL3IFcJk8GaKV5VJ40TMI0Wh8oq20cqA9X uqnVDW9WztKwH+o+msJenLwWpprbpJm4TImYGbnUJxYyN8gb81aiX1Bw2xCpJ5z3H2+8DsReJLuY Rdl4bVvaIxLIL4odmfsRwzPyNkOK8LRtfl6OPcaDOlFWzbikULfIVGGu7BqK4lxQSpYwwpZkOMOB 6nnBSfUOtBEmqO+qZG/nL/JxWFV5vxQgg4XHbsMMTxFf6+ji18BD09BUIfDLTuJoCzFmQhrM9vLT VuRhHWSL20LoafGjXv6mPt3i9IGJHpVb2dMQUgOgRyWHTKiUJVU/rUTdWwIDAQABo14wXDAqBgUr ZQEEAQQhMB8CAQAwGjAYAgEEBBNMMnVNeWZmQk5VYk5KSmNkWjJzMCAGA1UdEQQZMBeBFWxhcnMu ZWdnZXJ0QG5va2lhLmNvbTAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBADUx+67n98wt I1vydB90HeSZP4Y64VCxxb0NxGGFvfc2+JdVKeHJ/xT+l+ygYKsWNwJJprkPi4WZ5G0crkq4VK1H 5drEJIztpSPVfWI05vPidaaGuuuCR+6MvJMtOTEYEvc/6eovBnkrzRf9x5x5EyuJXAWTeuBADg80 QI3vQ1tZMIIDPzCCAqigAwIBAgIBDTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCB0TELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTAT BgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTESMBAGA1UEBxMJQ2FwZSBUb3duMRowGAYDVQQKExFUaGF3dGUg Q29uc3VsdGluZzEoMCYGA1UECxMfQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbiBTZXJ2aWNlcyBEaXZpc2lvbjEkMCIG A1UEAxMbVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIENBMSswKQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhxwZXJzb25h bC1mcmVlbWFpbEB0aGF3dGUuY29tMB4XDTAzMDcxNzAwMDAwMFoXDTEzMDcxNjIzNTk1OVowYjEL MAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNV BAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUA A4GNADCBiQKBgQDEpjxVc1X7TrnKmVoeaMB1BHCd3+n/ox7svc31W/Iadr1/DDph8r9RzgHU5VAK MNcCY1osiRVwjt3J8CuFWqo/cVbLrzwLB+fxH5E2JCoTzyvV84J3PQO+K/67GD4Hv0CAAmTXp6a7 n2XRxSpUhQ9IBH+nttE8YQRAHmQZcmC3+wIDAQABo4GUMIGRMBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAw QwYDVR0fBDwwOjA4oDagNIYyaHR0cDovL2NybC50aGF3dGUuY29tL1RoYXd0ZVBlcnNvbmFsRnJl ZW1haWxDQS5jcmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMCkGA1UdEQQiMCCkHjAcMRowGAYDVQQDExFQcml2YXRl TGFiZWwyLTEzODANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOBgQBIjNFQg+oLLswNo2asZw9/r6y+whehQ5aUnX9M Ibj4Nh+qLZ82L8D0HFAgk3A8/a3hYWLD2ToZfoSxmRsAxRoLgnSeJVCUYsfbJ3FXJY3dqZw5jowg T2Vfldr394fWxghOrvbqNOUQGls1TXfjViF4gtwhGTXeJLHTHUb/XV9lTzGCAxAwggMMAgEBMHYw YjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAq BgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhAHY5N+rFym51Z9eUtP 6lKdMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgggFvMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkF MQ8XDTEwMDMyMTE5MzAzN1owIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFDCKfNiHnuaLPCZJwmzmiBckde1VMIGF BgkrBgEEAYI3EAQxeDB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUwIwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGlu ZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBD QQIQB2OTfqxcpudWfXlLT+pSnTCBhwYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxeKB2MGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMSUw IwYDVQQKExxUaGF3dGUgQ29uc3VsdGluZyAoUHR5KSBMdGQuMSwwKgYDVQQDEyNUaGF3dGUgUGVy c29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgSXNzdWluZyBDQQIQB2OTfqxcpudWfXlLT+pSnTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEF AASCAQDJBr+BrUSneA6oh9nPhJ3Ul9K0XWJjX0jCFJwgeqVYKaOBQFsV8tAks1BhgTJ+ARpoyR4k 9kunMtf2q9pGcRHCVOYfOi5BsKa/Mf2ZO4XKehTs/AUlWford+47m5ZVPJzCg4A4K2T/vNXpOQF3 BApV+UalfsKxb15ADRREhthnS0JW8p12ogKqsr1gPJhq0Y7IUA++4QDhWd8v/l3aT2TsNERXmT9p IzB9x/GCi2KAxWkq/CAvaJz7xFq4E+T6GydKbNUwC4/J6A+UVl0qyakE7zQMT/IgWOkx//fqxv8U E7Ct9wIWF9F5oDdxcBiTDBIkmwvqgQAIlofwqz8wUfDWAAAAAAAA --Apple-Mail-26-982344795-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Sun Mar 21 13:25:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 441403A680C; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:25:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.215 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.766, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9t8pt8wmef29; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AB03A635F; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2LKPjro010299 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:25:45 +0100 Received: from demuexc022.nsn-intra.net (demuexc022.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.35]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o2LKPix3002073; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:25:44 +0100 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc022.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:25:44 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:25:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <89D81370-07EF-46FE-9D67-183A66041293@nokia.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal Thread-Index: AcrJLfGTkNXemL0qTRO7oC5PzE+Y8QABZcBw References: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com><201003220129364681589@chinamobile.com><9606A23F-5315-4113-9D3B-BA14DD1741E1@nokia.com><201003220322185627173@chinamobile.com> <89D81370-07EF-46FE-9D67-183A66041293@nokia.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Lars Eggert" , "zhangyunfei" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2010 20:25:44.0105 (UTC) FILETIME=[AEC41990:01CAC934] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org, IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 20:25:38 -0000 The current version of the charter is a good basis to start work on this = topic. If results of the work will result in further restrictions of the scope, = this information should be included in the related drafts and the = charter could be updated accordingly. BR Christian =20 -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext Lars Eggert Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 12:31 PM To: zhangyunfei Cc: ppsp@ietf.org; IESG IESG Subject: Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal Perfect - thank you very much. On 2010-3-21, at 12:23, zhangyunfei wrote: > Hi Lars, > In our original planned agenda, the first topic is charter = discussion for 50mins. Wish this helps to clarify the remaining = points.Thanks. >=20 > BR > Yunfei >=20 > ________________________________ > zhangyunfei > 2010-03-22 > ________________________________ > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Lars Eggert > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2010-03-22 02:35:13 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org; IESG IESG > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On 2010-3-21, at 10:29, zhangyunfei wrote: >> Thanks Lars for the review and modification.I am okay for = the changes.Thanks again. >=20 > the IESG only had a few minutes during our breakfast meeting = this morning to discuss the charter. In the end, we ran out = of time, and decided to run PPSP as a BOF tomorrow, to = quickly discuss and clarify the few remaining points related to = the charter, before going into the originally planned agenda. = We're very close to agreeing on a charter, and this is = probably the quickest way to reach an agreement. >=20 > Lars From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com Sun Mar 21 14:08:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F0F3A6A2E for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:08:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.055 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.055 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V8-gqH1TI-yP for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A9E3A6A40 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:08:51 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7b85ae000005cbc-49-4ba68af22d33 Received: from esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id A4.43.23740.2FA86AB4; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:09:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.175]) by esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:08:12 +0100 Received: from mail.lmf.ericsson.se ([131.160.11.50]) by esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:08:12 +0100 Received: from [131.160.126.142] (rvi2-126-142.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.126.142]) by mail.lmf.ericsson.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7CC26D8 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 23:08:11 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <4BA68ABA.3090807@ericsson.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:08:10 -0700 From: Gonzalo Camarillo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PPSP X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2010 21:08:12.0154 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D8585A0:01CAC93A] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [ppsp] Agenda posted X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:08:57 -0000 Folks, we have posted our agenda for tomorrow's meeting. You can fetch it from: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/10mar/agenda/ppsp.html Cheers, Gonzalo From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sun Mar 21 14:56:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28213A6817 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.277, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZKZB0C-hJyTy for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C863F3A67B4 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010032206122783-529 ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:12:27 +0800 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 05:56:02 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Gonzalo Camarillo" , "PPSP" References: <4BA68ABA.3090807@ericsson.com> Message-ID: <201003220555569532363@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-22 06:12:28, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-22 05:56:09, Serialize complete at 2010-03-22 05:56:09 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon332712506880_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] Agenda posted X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming 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score=-96.826 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.705, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, MANGLED_CNFDTL=2.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krUUZZB7Z1bR for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email2.etri.info (email2.etri.re.kr [129.254.16.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A9C3A68CE for ; Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from softgearpc ([129.254.232.20]) by email2.etri.info with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:33:44 +0900 From: "Softgear Ko" To: "'lichun li'" References: <009701cac661$4e8e5ac0$ebab1040$@re.kr> <7d6b50691003200035p453b81d7w40a12a8d8721dc75@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7d6b50691003200035p453b81d7w40a12a8d8721dc75@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:33:44 +0900 Message-ID: <008601cac957$546fef00$fd4fcd00$@re.kr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: AcrH/+JBfo7MW/V9RtiQQ54eFd2LvgBVYmWw Content-language: ko X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2010 00:33:44.0878 (UTC) FILETIME=[5465DCE0:01CAC957] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] New draft about P2P CDN X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 00:33:33 -0000 Hi, Lichun Li. About pushing, When does a tracker ask a cacher to pull the content? If there are many cacher, which cachers does a tracker ask? I think, if a CSC knows the nearest cacher, the CSC can ask the cacher = to pull the content for subsequent request or other nearby CSC. Thank you for adding our draft as a reference. - Softgear Ko. -----Original Message----- From: lichun li [mailto:lilichun@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 4:35 PM To: Softgear Ko Cc: li.lichun1@zte.com.cn; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] New draft about P2P CDN Hi I'm glad to share ideas with you and other people with common interests. I will add your draft to references in next version. Comments about "push", please see inline. On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Softgear Ko = wrote: > Hello, Lichun Li. > > > > I think this draft shows good overview of CDN supported P2P streaming > service. I think, basically, the idea is very similar to our draft: > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-softgear-p2psip-iptv/=A0 which = uses > RELOAD overlay for P2P streaming. > > However, your draft considers "chunk" based P2P streaming while our = draft > considers the live streaming only. I think we can share the idea each other. > Could you add our draft to References in your draft? > > Additionally, in your draft, only tracker (tracker overlay) can do > "pushing". Why don't add the function which CSCs or other entities requests > a cacher to push/pull content from others? Well, I have considered this before. I think this function is not necessary if CSCs ask tracker for peer list. But if CSCs request every chunk from nearby cachers and don't ask tracker for peer list, CSCs need this function. What do you think? > > > > Regards, > > Softgear Ko > > > > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of > li.lichun1@zte.com.cn > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 2:20 PM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] New draft about P2P CDN > > > > Dear all, > > We have submitted a new Internet draft entitled "A P2P CDN based = Content > Sharing System using PPSP and RELOAD". > It can be accessed at: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-ppsp-p2p-cdn-00.txt > Any comments are welcome. Thanks. > > Abstract: > This document defines a P2P CDN (Content Delivery Network) based > content sharing system using PPSP (Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol) > and RELOAD (REsource LOcation And Discovery). =A0The P2P CDN provides = a > unified platform for service/content providers and content sharing > users to share content efficiently and safely. =A0The shared contents > may include streaming media, files, etc. =A0This content sharing = system > uses PPSP as signaling protocol for P2P content distributing, and > uses RELOAD to improve reliability and scalability. =A0More > specifically, RELOAD is used to construct P2P overlays storing of > massive contents and locating contents reliably. > > Best Regards, > Lichun Li > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > ZTE=A0Information=A0Security=A0Notice:=A0The=A0information=A0contained=A0= in=A0this=A0mail=A0is=A0s olely=A0property=A0of=A0the=A0sender's=A0organization.=A0This=A0mail=A0co= mmunication=A0is=A0conf idential.=A0Recipients=A0named=A0above=A0are=A0obligated=A0to=A0maintain=A0= secrecy=A0and=A0are=A0n ot=A0permitted=A0to=A0disclose=A0the=A0contents=A0of=A0this=A0communicati= on=A0to=A0others. > > This=A0email=A0and=A0any=A0files=A0transmitted=A0with=A0it=A0are=A0confid= ential=A0and=A0intended=A0s olely=A0for=A0the=A0use=A0of=A0the=A0individual=A0or=A0entity=A0to=A0whom= =A0they=A0are=A0addressed.=A0If =A0you=A0have=A0received=A0this=A0email=A0in=A0error=A0please=A0notify=A0= the=A0originator=A0of=A0the=A0m essage.=A0Any=A0views=A0expressed=A0in=A0this=A0message=A0are=A0those=A0o= f=A0the=A0individual=A0send er. > > This=A0message=A0has=A0been=A0scanned=A0for=A0viruses=A0and=A0Spam=A0by=A0= ZTE=A0Anti-Spam=A0system. > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > --=20 Sincerely yours, Lichun Li ZTE Corporation From albertojgc@gmail.com Mon Mar 22 02:29:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366A73A6B45 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:29:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.268 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.268 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_41=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_73=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0C7fAnqt2poO for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f211.google.com (mail-bw0-f211.google.com [209.85.218.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E2F93A6877 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bwz3 with SMTP id 3so5167667bwz.29 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:25:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=nVCa6y6hBNxdAPOnn6GKolUYyMwA04qDNSia28+TMGM=; b=owNxKfLaQnDSCAJVKiy1QOdOS9IcswjpxDZsFKogbheWw+RuI7Yr5PT/zgJeA/q1nL DPSIsjreuwQjGTCw/5LKgUBEYQIVHnXHkMP0Rgb7uZmUsz7JRjtn9xXy/JCqEhiKlGf/ Zj1PZxpImnMppnZZRBCg2kPOWRwTnJc38t0Bk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=NnbqbD1cOrh7UaiH2dBvk+qhFCo1OTEjI5nSjk64iFtHBRKcwb9FVLwKaeVk7EP3JR dtpmxxBbHRMnHWTq17SA4zsR7+zQ0MA8+wIsHDcdsRm3sKL2QlPre9h112xI8ECCQABf eGM8wpzXWFETMi/27q4Vhfeqt99xbWAnNAmIU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: albertojgc@gmail.com Received: by 10.204.174.194 with SMTP id u2mr3140099bkz.40.1269249913117; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:25:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:25:12 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3b6d30c086f81f50 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Jos=E9_Gonz=E1lez_Cela?= To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0003255554f63424f304826046e3 Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp Digest, Vol 18, Issue 32 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:29:04 -0000 --0003255554f63424f304826046e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Yunfei, all, First of all, I think you have done a great job consolidating this version of the charter. By the way, I propose two minor changes: -------- 1) "RTP,TCP or UDP may be used for the encoding and transmission of the media content between peers" --> Proposal: "RTP,TCP or UDP may be used for the transmission of the media content between peers" I think that the term "encoding" used here is confusing as the charter refers to transport protocols in this sentence. 2) " This document will also discuss use of layered media encoding and related media chunk descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming" --> Proposal: "This document will also discuss use of layered media encoding and related media chunk descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust and scalable streaming" I think it is important to add the term "scalable" in this sentence as it is an important feature of layered media encoding which will allow to reach heterogeneous devices (including mobiles and fixed devices) with different capabilities (display and network access). ------ For the rest, I agree with the charter text. Best Regards, Alberto J. Gonzalez Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya (BarcelonaTECH) / i2CAT Foundation > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:18:06 +0800 > From: "zhangyunfei" > Subject: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal > To: "ppsp@ietf.org" > Message-ID: <201003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" > > Dear all, > Accroding to Cullen's version of PPSP charter proposal and recent > discussions on PPSP mailing list,I update a new version with some > revisions,including updated language concerning the protocol candidates > descriptions on peer and tracker protocol, the task of session negotiation > description for rechartering (if necessary) and some related WG update. > So please let me know if it reflects clearer view on PPSP.Any comments > are highly appreciated. > Thanks so much for all of your proposals and valuable suggestions on the > mailing list. > > BR > Yunfei > > > ==================================================== > The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops two > signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming > system for transmitting live and time shifted media content with near > real-time delivery requirements. > > Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., > "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending and > receiving streamed media content, and include both statically connected > hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that > change over time. Besides end nodes, peers also include caches, > CDN nodes and the kind of deployed edge network equipments and super-nodes > by ISP. > The set of peers that are participating in a streaming session will > dynamically > change over time. Trackers are well-known nodes with stable connectivity > that > maintain meta information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer > set. > They can be organized in centralized or distributed way. > > The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between > trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling and > control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP "peer > protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming data > within the time constraints required by specific content items. The > tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of meta > information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and content > information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of > media data availability and each other?s neighbor peers between the peers. > > The tracker protocol will be modeled as request/answer protocol between > peer and tracker,and will carry information > that is needed for selection of a peer suitable for real time streaming. > > The peer protocol will be modeled as gossip-like protocol, with periodic, > pairwise, > inter-process interactions of changed available neighbor peers and media > piece > states called bitmap between peers. The information exchanged during these > interactions > is of bounded size and is carried by TCP or UDP together with ICE for NAT > traversal > support. > > RTP,TCP or UDP may be used for the encoding and transmission of the media > content > between peers. PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission > protocols, media encoding techniques or other components of a P2P > streaming system such as playout,scheduling and control, etc. > There is a gap between the task of peer protocol and content transmission, > namely, the > negotiation to set up a session between peers. If the gap is deemed > necessary to be met, > the WG will seek to recharter for such extensions. > > The work items of the PPSP WG are: > > (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the > proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for standardized > protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those standardized > components and discusses common terminologies and concepts. > > (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional, > operational and performance requirements of the two PPSP protocols. > > (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current P2P > streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming > systems, and highlights best current practices. > > (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. > > (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. > > (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and > existing IETF protocols, such as P2PSIP and ALTO, can be combined to > create a > deployable operational P2P streaming system. This document will > also discuss use of layered media encoding and related media chunk > descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming. > > > The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in other > IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever > extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs are > deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the requirements > for such extensions with the relevant WGs but is not charted to make > such changes. > > Goals and Milestones: > > Sep 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational > Dec 2010 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational > Dec 2010 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational > Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard > Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard > Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational > > > > > > zhangyunfei > 2010-03-21 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/attachments/20100321/973eebea/attachment.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > End of ppsp Digest, Vol 18, Issue 32 > ************************************ > -- Alberto Jose Gonzalez Cela --0003255554f63424f304826046e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yunfei, all, First of all, I think you have done a gr= eat job consolidating this version of the charter. By the way, I propose two minor changes:
--------=
1) "RTP,TCP or UDP may be used for the encoding an= d transmission of the media contentbetween peers" --> Proposa= l: =A0"RTP,TCP or UDP may be used for the transmission of the media co= ntent between peers" I think that the term "encoding= " used here is confusing as the charter refers to transport protocols = in this sentence. 2) "=A0This document will= =A0also discuss use of layered media encoding and related media chunk =A0 descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming" -->= ; Proposal:=A0"This document will=A0also discuss use of layered media = encoding and related media chunk=A0descriptions in the peer protocol for mo= re robust and scalable streaming" I think it is important to add the term "scalable"= in this sentence as it is an important feature of layered media encoding w= hich will allow to reach heterogeneous devices (including mobiles and fixed= devices) with different capabilities (display and network access). ------ For the rest, I agree w= ith the charter text. Best Regards, = Alberto J. Gonzalez Universitat Politecnica d= e Catalunya (BarcelonaTECH) / i2CAT Foundation Message: 1 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:18:06 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" <zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com> Subject: [ppsp] Updated PPSP charter propsal To: "ppsp@ietf.org" <ppsp@ietf.org> Message-ID: <20= 1003211318052964152@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"gb2312" Dear all, =A0 Accroding to Cullen's version of PPSP charter proposal and recent = discussions on PPSP mailing list,I update a new version with some revisions= ,including updated language concerning the protocol candidates descriptions= on peer and tracker protocol, the task of session negotiation description = for rechartering (if necessary) and some related WG update. =A0 So please let me know if it reflects clearer view on PPSP.Any comments= are highly appreciated. =A0 Thanks so much for all of your proposals and valuable suggestions on t= he mailing list. BR Yunfei =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming system for transmitting live and time shifted media content with near real-time delivery requirements. Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are active= ly sending and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that change over time. Besides end nodes, peers also include caches, CDN nodes and the kind of deployed edge network equipments and super-nodes = by ISP. The set of peers that are participating in a streaming session will dynamic= ally change over time. Trackers are well-known nodes with stable connectivity th= at =A0maintain meta information about the streamed content and the dynamic pee= r set. They can be organized in centralized or distributed way. The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling = and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items. =A0The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of media data availability and each other?s neighbor peers between the peers.<= br> The tracker protocol will be modeled as request/answer protocol between peer and tracker,and will carry information that is needed for selection of a peer suitable for real time streaming. The peer protocol will be modeled as gossip-like protocol, with periodic, p= airwise, =A0inter-process interactions of changed available neighbor peers and media= piece states called bitmap between peers. The information exchanged during these = interactions is of bounded size and is carried by TCP or UDP together with ICE for NAT t= raversal support. RTP,TCP or UDP may be used for the encoding and transmission of the media c= ontent between peers. PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout,scheduling and control, etc. There is a gap between the task of peer protocol and content transmission, = namely, the negotiation to set up a session between peers. If the gap is deemed necessa= ry to be met, the WG will seek to recharter for such extensions. The work items of the PPSP WG are: (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the<= br> =A0 =A0proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for standardize= d =A0 =A0protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those standardized =A0 =A0components and discusses common terminologies and concepts. (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functiona= l, =A0 =A0operational and performance requirements of the two PPSP protocols.= (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current P2= P =A0 =A0streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming<= br> =A0 =A0systems, and highlights best current practices. (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and= =A0 =A0existing IETF protocols, such as P2PSIP and ALTO, can be combined t= o create a =A0 =A0deployable operational P2P streaming system. This document will =A0 =A0also discuss use of layered media encoding and related media chunk<= br> =A0 descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming. The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever= extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs but is not charted to make such changes. Goals and Milestones: Sep 2010 =A0 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational Dec 2010 =A0 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational Dec 2010 =A0 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational Aug 2011 =A0 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug 2011 =A0 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Dec 2011 =A0 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational zhangyunfei 2010-03-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/ppsp/attachments/20100321/973eebea/attachment.htm> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp End of ppsp Digest, Vol 18, Issue 32 ************************************ -- Alberto Jose Gonzalez C= ela --0003255554f63424f304826046e3-- From zongning@huawei.com Mon Mar 22 07:16:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D883A6B94 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:16:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.875, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_41=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_73=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, 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szxml02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KZO00L2WSWMCG@szxml02-in.huawei.com>; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 22:14:50 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:14:50 -0700 From: Ning Zong To: =?gb2312?B?QWxiZXJ0b19Kb3PpX0dvbnrhbGV6X0NlbGE=?= , "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-id: <0KZO00L2YSWNCG@szxml02-in.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 [en] Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_CrsGzBpl+66W0ZL/b9GLmA)" Subject: Re: [ppsp] ppsp Digest, Vol 18, Issue 32 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:16:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_CrsGzBpl+66W0ZL/b9GLmA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 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QlI+PC9CTE9DS1FVT1RFPjwvRElWPjxCUj48QlIgDQpjbGVhcj1hbGw+PEJSPi0tIDxCUj5BbGJl cnRvIEpvc2UgR29uemFsZXogQ2VsYTxCUj48QlI+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+DQo8SFI+DQo8L0JPRFk+ PC9IVE1MPg0K --Boundary_(ID_CrsGzBpl+66W0ZL/b9GLmA)-- From melodysong@huawei.com Mon Mar 22 14:40:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468663A67E1 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.235 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l7zZaz8ewo00 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3492F3A680C for ; Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KZP00GWCDJUP4@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:40:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KZP00FBRDJU6V@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:40:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from [172.24.1.6] (Forwarded-For: [130.129.28.136]) by szxmc03-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:40:42 +0800 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:40:42 +0800 From: songhaibin 64081 To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: zh-CN Priority: normal Subject: [ppsp] presentation slides X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:40:46 -0000 Who can tell me where can I get the slides for PPSP presentations? I'm looking forward to reading them. BR, Haibin From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Tue Mar 23 16:28:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietf.org Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 5883E3A6CDA; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:28:02 -0700 (PDT) From: IESG Secretary To: IETF Announcement list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100323232802.5883E3A6CDA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] WG Action: Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:28:02 -0000 A new IETF working group has been formed in the Transport Area. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) -------------------------------------------------- Chair(s): Yunfei Zhang Cullen Jennings Transport Area Director(s): Magnus Westerlund Lars Eggert Transport Area Advisor: Lars Eggert Mailing Lists: Address: ppsp@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/ Description of Working Group: The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming system for transmitting live and time-shifted media content with near real-time delivery requirements. Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e., "peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP addresses that change over time. The set of peers that are participating in a streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers are well-known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set. Trackers can be organized in centralized or distributed ways. The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP "peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming data within the time constraints required by specific content items. The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and exchange of media data availability between the peers. It is envisioned that the tracker protocol will be modeled as a request/response protocol between peers and trackers, and will carry information needed for the selection of peers suitable for real-time streaming. The peer protocol is envisioned to be modeled as a gossip-like protocol with periodic, pairwise exchanges of neighbor and media chunk availability information. Both protocols will be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be met by TCP), likely in combination with ICE for NAT traversal support. Perfect privacy protection is a good feature to have but not a mandatory requirement for the peer and tracker protocols. The WG will consider to use existing protocols as design base for the tracker and peer protocols. Developing mechanisms for searching trackers that contain a specific media item is out of the scope of this WG. Additionally, the WG will work under the assumption that trackers are logically centralized entities (e.g., a single server or a server farm performing DNS-based local balancing). However, as far as it is possible, the WG will not make design decisions that could preclude the use of distributed trackers in the future (e.g., DHT-based trackers). A peer looking for a media chunk uses the tracker and peer protocols to locate a remote peer (or peers) that can provide it with that media chunk. Obtaining the media chunk from the remote peer will involve some type of signaling exchange plus the actual media transfer. The first task for this WG will be to decide which signaling and media transfer protocols will be used. The WG will consider existing protocols and, if needed, identify potential extensions to these protocols. The WG will consider the interactions between these protocols and the peer protocol (e.g., avoiding duplicate NAT traversal procedures). Examples of signaling protocols to be considered are SIP, RTSP, and HTTP. Examples of media transfer protocols to be considered are RTP and HTTP. PPSP is not chartered to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout, scheduling and control, etc. The work items of the PPSP WG are: (1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those standardized components and discusses common terminologies and concepts. (2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional, operational and performance requirements of the two PPSP protocols. (3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P streaming systems, and highlights best current practices. (4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol. (5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol. (6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and existing IETF protocols, such as P2PSIP or ALTO, can be combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system. This document may also discuss variants of such a system that, for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming. The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs. PPSP is not chartered to design and specify such changes. Goals and Milestones: Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Mar 23 18:42:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB3B3A6B42; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:42:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -93.843 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-93.843 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C1ub9K1nj3iL; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40E03A6B08; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010032409373513-3133 ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:37:35 +0800 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:21:00 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "IESG Secretary" References: <20100323232802.5883E3A6CDA@core3.amsl.com> Message-ID: <201003240920595158636@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-24 09:37:37, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-24 09:42:32, Serialize complete at 2010-03-24 09:42:32 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon760524160712_=====" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG Action: Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 01:42:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon760524160712_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" R3JlYXQgbmV3cyENCkkgYXBwcmVjaWF0ZSBhbGwgb2YgdGhlIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbnMgYW5kIHNp bmNlcmUgaGVscCBmcm9tIHlvdSxQUFNQIGd1eXMgaW4gbWFraW5nIFBQU1AgYSBXRyBhZnRlciBh bG1vc3Qgb25lIGFuZCBhIGhhbGYgeWVhcidzIGhhcmR3b3JraW5nLg0KVGhhbmtzIExhcnMsR29u emFsbyxDdWxsZW4gYW5kIGFsbCB0aG9zZSB3aG8gZ2l2ZSB1cyBnb29kIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb25zIGlu 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O3VzYWdlICZuYnNwO2d1aWRlICZuYnNwO3RvICZuYnNwO0lFU0cgDQombmJzcDt0byAmbmJzcDtJ RVNHICZuYnNwO2FzIA0KJm5ic3A7SW5mb3JtYXRpb25hbDwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0JP RFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon760524160712_=====-- From zongning@huawei.com Tue Mar 23 20:33:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99303A68AF; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.115 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.115 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RZV4sxidHPYe; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D903A6859; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KZR00FN0OJN9T@szxga03-in.huawei.com>; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:33:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KZR00IXKOJM4N@szxga03-in.huawei.com>; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:33:23 +0800 (CST) Received: from z-20684ca876cc4 (dhcp-wireless-open-abg-25-78.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.25.78]) by szxml01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KZR00I25OJK9B@szxml01-in.huawei.com>; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:33:23 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:33:25 -0800 From: Ning Zong To: zhangyunfei , IESG Secretary Message-id: <0KZR00I28OJL9B@szxml01-in.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 [en] Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_xYjQG9MM4KnR3dLm3lWYKw)" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG Action: Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 03:33:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_xYjQG9MM4KnR3dLm3lWYKw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Q29uZ3JhdHVsYXRpb25zIHRvIGFsbCB0aGUgcGVvcGxlIGhhdmluZyBiZWVuIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGlu ZyB0byBQUFNQIHNpbmNlIHRoZSB2ZXJ5IGJlZ2luaW5nLiBMZXQncyBjb250aW51ZSB0byB3b3Jr IHRvZ2V0aGVyIGFzIGJlZm9yZSBhbmQgbWFrZSBQUFNQIGEgc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bCBXRy4NCg0KQlIs 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score=-95.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_47=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WU9AwCfgqEa0 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B43503A69BB for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KZR00J12P7KAF@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:47:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KZR00LQ7P7KOL@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:47:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from z-20684ca876cc4 (dhcp-wireless-open-abg-25-78.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.25.78]) by szxml02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KZR0021LP7DAZ@szxml02-in.huawei.com>; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:47:44 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:47:43 -0800 From: Ning Zong To: zhangyunfei Message-id: <0KZR0021OP7EAZ@szxml02-in.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 [en] Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_PbR4JdjA8Y3Z8L7IPRFOXg)" Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WG Action: Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 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DQo= --Boundary_(ID_PbR4JdjA8Y3Z8L7IPRFOXg)-- From hecht@ifi.uzh.ch Wed Mar 24 01:49:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C623A67FB for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 01:49:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.13 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.13 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tv4XZZBJY4W9 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 01:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gustav.ifi.uzh.ch (gustav.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.10]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBC23A676A for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 01:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.229] (retsina.ifi.uzh.ch [130.60.156.181]) (Authenticated sender: hecht) by gustav.ifi.uzh.ch (postfix) with ESMTPSA id 92BD128E96 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:49:54 +0100 (CET) From: Fabio Hecht To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Universit=E4t?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_Z=FCrich?= Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:49:53 +0100 Message-Id: <1269420593.26443.25.camel@bart2> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at gustav X-Virus-Status: Clean Subject: [ppsp] charter X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:49:36 -0000 Hi all, wouldn't it make sense to include the words 'video' and possibly 'audio' in the charter? It says a lot about streaming, but I can see that the discussions are all around video streaming. Regards Fabio -- Fabio Hecht University of Zurich - Department of Informatics (IfI) Binzmühlestrasse 14 CH-8050 Zürich, Switzerland Ph.: +41 44 6357129 / 6350892 Fax: +41 44 6356809 VoIP sip:hecht@ifi.uzh.ch From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Mar 24 11:38:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA493A6C31 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:38:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.843 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.843 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I2Dlmh8gYmiX for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D2C3A6959 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010032502545851-28311 ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 02:54:58 +0800 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 02:38:20 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "pengjin@chinamobile.com" , "Fabio Hecht" , "ppsp" References: <1269420593.26443.25.camel@bart2> Message-ID: <201003250238185627306@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-25 02:54:59, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-25 02:38:25, Serialize complete at 2010-03-25 02:38:25 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon212055678750_=====" 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ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA763A6924 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 13:08:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4j9X8t+yfF47 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 13:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B263A683E for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 13:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010032504250355-29410 ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:25:03 +0800 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:08:25 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "songhaibin 64081" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: Message-ID: <201003250407522650635@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-25 04:25:04, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-25 04:08:34, Serialize complete at 2010-03-25 04:08:34 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon734814238483_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] presentation slides X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:08:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 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PjwvSFRNTD4NCg== --=====003_Dragon734814238483_=====-- From davidbryan@gmail.com Tue Mar 30 13:16:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAC33A6809 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:16:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.66 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.66 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_40=-0.185, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A+Vnz1SeBjYP for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B09F3A6811 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gyh4 with SMTP id 4so6806021gyh.31 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:16:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=vKiHF8x/+6e6RHJ5NRRcGCJ0rnOzhdb92MDOUa42haA=; b=GxgqmXMURZXw8S7nQ/WCKr0Mn+s8U8omKjQ0frHrmbFRwfzHBaTvjFPOFMk4ObOq9b bUTcsZmWi4F59FvKxxRNvqw5XI0gCcr1TBZZT+TMHcHjOF5ULf+ZWxPwjkCTEj17GbWp dt/iGIKwtb2tkERhb0KFtp7UYl3GtbFcEgQAU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=RqLPEjvtS3CF+mnPAJ2fl3y+Pjv2CF+ZHVi0z4ZaG1PXY2N0twC+uaQCFoFMK9Rj/3 QA+B0ho9bPbmbuvC+5Yh78yGkUsl4ttBp4a1RZnzrzBQhOE64haCbpfD64MOsg37M3uu yfaVMttFVXK2tQPqJdCIDo0tqpGr47JTv9YTM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: davidbryan@gmail.com Received: by 10.150.200.16 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:16:53 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 648d1ef711181d50 Received: by 10.150.47.33 with SMTP id u33mr6017592ybu.335.1269980213062; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8b2769931003301316kfb89548mda78752dd6dbe849@mail.gmail.com> From: "David A. Bryan" To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [ppsp] BitTorrent Specs X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:16:28 -0000 During the meeting I mentioned the BitTorrent Protocol Spec, BEP003. I was asked to send a link to the list. You can find it here: http://www.bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0003.html I also found the following very interesting document (apparently unofficial) when I was digging around, which is far more detailed: http://wiki.theory.org/BitTorrentSpecification Anyway, makes for interesting reading. David From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Tue Mar 30 19:52:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B921E3A6810 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:52:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.576 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.576 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.133, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xbFjrrQ0SlV2 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C435D3A63EC for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.1]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010033111093594-5936 ; Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:09:35 +0800 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:52:31 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "David A. Bryan" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <8b2769931003301316kfb89548mda78752dd6dbe849@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201003311052311714454@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-31 11:09:35, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-03-31 10:52:37, Serialize complete at 2010-03-31 10:52:37 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon663480178166_=====" Subject: Re: [ppsp] BitTorrent Specs X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 02:52:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon663480178166_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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	ppsp.txt	ppsp-final.txt

	skipping to change at line 22	skipping to change at line 22
	Transport Area Advisor:	Transport Area Advisor:
	Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com>	Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com>

	Mailing Lists:	Mailing Lists:
	ppsp@ietf.org	ppsp@ietf.org

	Description of Working Group:	Description of Working Group:

	The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops	The Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) working group develops
	two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming	two signaling and control protocols for a peer-to-peer (P2P) streaming

	system for transmitting live and pre-recorded media content with near	system for transmitting live and time-shifted media content with near
	real-time delivery requirements.	real-time delivery requirements.

	Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e.,	Two kinds of nodes exist in the targeted P2P streaming system, i.e.,
	"peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending	"peers" and "trackers". Peers are nodes that are actively sending
	and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically	and receiving streamed media content, and include both statically
	connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP	connected hosts as well as mobile devices with connectivity and IP
	addresses that change over time. The set of peers that are participating	addresses that change over time. The set of peers that are participating
	in a streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers	in a streaming session will dynamically change over time. Trackers
	are well-known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta	are well-known nodes with stable connectivity that maintain meta
	information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set.	information about the streamed content and the dynamic peer set.

		Trackers can be organized in centralized or distributed ways.

	The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between	The PPSP WG designs a protocol for signaling and control between
	trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling	trackers and peers (the PPSP "tracker protocol") and a signaling
	and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP	and control protocol for communication among the peers (the PPSP
	"peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming	"peer protocol"). The two protocols enable peers to receive streaming
	data within the time constraints required by specific content items.	data within the time constraints required by specific content items.
	The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of	The tracker protocol handles the initial and periodic exchange of
	meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and	meta information between trackers and peers, such as peer lists and
	content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and	content information. The peer protocol controls the advertising and
	exchange of media data availability between the peers.	exchange of media data availability between the peers.


	Existing IETF and other standards will be used for the encoding and	It is envisioned that the tracker protocol will be modeled as a
	transmission of the media content between peers. PPSP is not chartered	request/response protocol between peers and trackers, and will carry
	to work on media transmission protocols, media encoding techniques	information needed for the selection of peers suitable for real-time
	or other components of a P2P streaming system such as playout	streaming. The peer protocol is envisioned to be modeled as a
	scheduling and control, etc.	gossip-like protocol with periodic, pairwise exchanges of neighbor
		and media chunk availability information. Both protocols will be
		carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be met by
		TCP), likely in combination with ICE for NAT traversal support.

		RTP, TCP or UDP may be used for the encoding and transmission of the
		media content between peers. PPSP is not chartered to work on media
		transmission protocols, media encoding techniques or other components
		of a P2P streaming system such as playout, scheduling and control, etc.

	The work items of the PPSP WG are:	The work items of the PPSP WG are:

	(1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the	(1) A "problem statement" document that gives an overview of the
	proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for	proposed P2P streaming system, motivates the desire for
	standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those	standardized protocols, defines the envisioned scope of those
	standardized components and discusses common terminologies and	standardized components and discusses common terminologies and
	concepts.	concepts.

	(2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional,	(2) A "requirements" document that details the specific functional,

	skipping to change at line 70	skipping to change at line 79

	(3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current	(3) An "architectural survey" document that summarizes current
	P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P	P2P streaming architectures, in particular tracker-based P2P
	streaming systems, and highlights best current practices.	streaming systems, and highlights best current practices.

	(4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol.	(4) A detailed specification of the PPSP peer protocol.

	(5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol.	(5) A detailed specification of the PPSP tracker protocol.

	(6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and	(6) A "usage guide" that describes how the two PPSP protocols and

	existing IETF protocols, such as RELOAD, ALTO or RTSP, can be	existing IETF protocols, such as P2PSIP or ALTO, can be
	combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system.	combined to create a deployable operational P2P streaming system.
	This document may also discuss variants of such a system that,	This document may also discuss variants of such a system that,
	for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk	for example, use layered media encoding and related media chunk
	descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming.	descriptions in the peer protocol for more robust streaming.

	The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in	The work items of the PPSP WG interacts with the work performed in

	other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC. Whenever	other IETF WGs, including P2PSIP, SIPCORE, AVT, ALTO, LEDBAT and MMUSIC.
	extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other WGs	Whenever extensions or modification to the protocols developed in other
	are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the	WGs are deemed necessary, PPSP shall communicate and discuss the
	requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs. The design	requirements for such extensions with the relevant WGs. PPSP is not
	of such extensions is out of scope for PPSP.	chartered to design and specify such changes.

	Goals and Milestones:	Goals and Milestones:

	Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational	Dec 2010 Submit problem statement to IESG as Informational
	Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational	Apr 2011 Submit architectural survey to IESG as Informational
	Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational	Apr 2011 Submit requirements document to IESG as Informational
	Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard	Aug 2011 Submit PPSP peer protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard
	Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard	Aug 2011 Submit PPSP tracker protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard
	Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational	Dec 2011 Submit usage guide to IESG to IESG as Informational

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