From zengw@huawei.com Wed Jun 2 14:08:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8463A6A6F for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:08:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.289 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.763, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y38GLcAOq8mM for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaga01-in.huawei.com (usaga01-in.huawei.com [206.16.17.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E4A3A6A7A for ; Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (usaga01-in [172.18.4.6]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L3E00M5RO1RMQ@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zengPC (umc-196172.dhcp.missouri.edu [161.130.196.172]) by usaga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0L3E00FSWO1KXQ@usaga01-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:08:08 -0500 From: "Wenjun (Kevin) Zeng" In-reply-to: <001e01cb0060$fb810c30$58548a0a@china.huawei.com> To: "'Y.J. Gu'" , 'zhangyunfei' , 'Omer Luzzatti' , ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <012601cb0297$b6c9b220$245d1660$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_jZblzj96Xn7SH6S6b2ivkw)" Content-language: en-us Thread-index: Acr+EIsXXJYW+FbIQoitqepsEGbZLQAuoNpwADEd4MAAM1ZKIACOgz6g References: <001801caff92$940d2d00$bc278700$@com> <001e01cb0060$fb810c30$58548a0a@china.huawei.com> Subject: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: zengw@huawei.com List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 21:08:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_jZblzj96Xn7SH6S6b2ivkw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Yingjie, =20 I agree the flexibility this function provides would be beneficial in = some scenarios, especially when streaming deadline is approaching and shorter delay is desired. =20 Cheers! =20 -Kevin =20 From: Y.J. Gu [mailto:guyingjie@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:31 PM To: zengw@huawei.com; 'zhangyunfei'; 'Omer Luzzatti'; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol =20 Hi Kevin=A3=AC In live streaming, Tracker is able to provide precise peerlist upon a = Swarm ID. While in VoD, there can be multiple options. A requesting peer can = get some peers in a particular Swarm and ask some of them to check whether = they have the desired chunk. But considering the delay constraint in = streaming, this is not an efficient way.=20 Another way is what we designed in our draft. Though this is not an = always guaranteed method, the general delay is much lower than the above = method. Besides, we can develop some enhanced mechanism to reduce the delay = caused by un-reported normal buffer aging. =20 =20 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Wenjun (Kevin) Zeng [mailto:zengw@huawei.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2010=C4=EA5=D4=C230=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D68:54 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'Y.J. Gu'; 'zhangyunfei'; 'Omer Luzzatti'; = ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: RE: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol =20 Hi Yunfei and Yingjie, =20 Thanks a lot for your clarification.=20 Please see my responses inline below, starting with [Kevin]. =20 Best. =20 -Kevin =20 From: Y.J. Gu [mailto:guyingjie@huawei.com]=20 Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:30 PM To: 'zhangyunfei'; zengw@huawei.com; 'Omer Luzzatti'; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol =20 Hi Yunfei and Kevin, Now we have updated the Tracker protocol and will submit soon. In the = latest version, we define 2 messages. STAT-Query is used by Tracker to query = Peer information. STAT-Report is initiated by peer to report peer = information. But, as Yunfei said, the system statistics can also be notified by = Tracker to peers, which is an existing schedule policy in P2P application, to improve the global performance and efficiency of PPSP. We can extend the STAT-Report to enable Tracker notifies the system statistics = information. Or, to make the syntax more legible, design a new message. =20 =20 [Kevin] Sounds good to me. =20 =20 As for your 2nd question, Peer doesn=A1=AFt use GET to get chunks = information of a candidate peer, instead the chunk id in the GET message indicate which chunks the requesting peer is interested in and Tracker should find some candidate peers who possess the desired chunks. And, in the following steps, the requesting peer will get detail chunks information by = querying the candidate peers. =20 [Kevin] Sorry my fault in not clearly stating my question. I was = wondering about the benefit of a peer requesting a list of peers that has a = specific chunk from the tracker. If I understand correctly, in BitTorrent, for example, tracker returns a list of peers in the swarm upon a request = from a joining peer. Typically requesting peer specifies only the Swarm ID (or = file ID). Specifying chunk ID in the peer list request does provide more flexibility (and potentially a better customized peer list), but I was a = bit concerned about the synchronization of chuck availability information between tracker and individual peers (e.g. in the case peers delete some chunks but have not updated the tracker). But maybe a first order approximation of the chunk availability information is sufficient in practice.=20 =20 As for your 3rd question, we have made removed it from the new version. =20 Thank you very much for your comments.=20 =20 =20 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2010=C4=EA5=D4=C228=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D610:50 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: zengw@huawei.com; 'Omer Luzzatti'; 'Y.J. Gu'; = ppsp@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol =20 Hi Kevin. For the 1st question,one reason for the tracker (of course, peer can = also send statistics) to send statistics message is that the tracker actively pushes some system statistics(e.g., accumulated total upload/download = ratio, content scarcity degree,etc)to the peers and the peers can adjust its = own parameters(like caching size or upload/download ratio)accordingly for a better display. =20 BR Yunfei=20 =20 _____ =20 zhangyunfei 2010-05-28 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Wenjun (Kevin) Zeng =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2010-05-28 00:23:24 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA 'Omer Luzzatti'; 'Y.J. Gu'; ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol =20 Hi Yingjie and all, =20 While reading the tracker protocol draft, I came across the following questions. =20 1. The draft proposes that =A1=B0Tracker may send STATISTICS messages to = peers and peers report with the requested information.=A1=B1 =20 Any reason this should be initiated by the tracker, but not the peers? = Some of the statistics parameters defined later such as Caching size and bandwidth seem to be more static information which could be reported = when joining the swarm (using =A1=B0put=A1=B1). By the way, what is the = definition of the =A1=B0content report=A1=B1 parameter? =20 2. In the =A1=B0put=A1=B1 and =A1=B0get=A1=B1 methods between tracker = and peers, chunk ID is involved.=20 I was wondering what use cases do we have here for a peer to get the = chunk information of the candidate peers from tracker (as opposed to directly = from the peers)? There could be a synchronization issue between tracker and = peers at the chunk level. This is probably related to Omer=A1=AFs first = question below. I can understand having chunk info in the =A1=B0put=A1=B1 method as this = could be used for calculating statistics by the tracker. =20 3. 5.3 Statistics: =20 Peer-Communication : 0x1 (Reserved)=20 why do we have =A1=B0peer communication=A1=B1 parameter in the tracker = protocol? =20 =20 Thanks and best. =20 -Kevin =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Omer Luzzatti Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 2:46 AM To: Y.J. Gu; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol =20 Yingjie, =20 Congrats on the first draft of the tracker protocol, really amazing work done in short time.=20 Design point to consider:=20 Especially for live streaming the tracker may need to = =A1=AErecruit=A1=AF resources to the swarm. These =A1=AEhelper nodes=A1=AF are joined nodes (and = rightly you separated the =A1=AEjoin=A1=AF from the swarmID) that could be helpful = either for their bandwidth or storage. In general a tracker-originated = =A1=AEGet=A1=AF is what the server should send and the peers to be able to accept; in practice = some additional information may be needed since the peers may not be real participates in the swarm but acting in different roles (super nodes, helpers, etc=A1=AD). Note that in VOD you may want to = =A1=AEdistribute=A1=AF the content which again will require the above. I know this complicates things significantly but please give it a thought. =20 Questions: 1. It is not clear to me how a peer indicates that it = =A1=AEdeleted=A1=AF a chunk from its storage. Does a peer send the entire list of chunks in = every =A1=AEput=A1=AF? this may be good if not too segmented but still if I = delete my entire =A1=AEVOD title/swarm=A1=AF data the server should be notified.=20 2. Do you expect peers to =A1=AEput=A1=AF all of their existing = storage just after =A1=AEjoining=A1=AF?=20 3. For security reasons we may want to consider having a = =A1=AEsession ID=A1=AF to the Join response. 4. As you stated, for live streaming chunks won=A1=AFt be used so = basically a peer will request a peer-list to watch that =A1=AEchannel/swarm=A1=AF. = However, the swarmID may not be sufficient to indicate the entity wished to be watched. A peer may be authorized to watch the current program within = the channel (the swarm) but not the next one (say a PPV event). This problem could be solved in one the following ways: a) letting the tracker reply = with a different =A1=AEswarm-ID=A1=AF to a get request (which btw will help = when having different qualities swarms, or when there is more than one swarm representing the same content); b) having also a program ID as part of = the reply.=20 =20 Regards and praises again for the work Omer =20 =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Y.J. Gu Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 2:21 PM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol =20 Hi everyone, We submitted a Tracker Protocol draft for ppsp. =20 Abstract: This document defines P2P streaming Tracker Protocol, including functional entities and architecture, components, syntax and semantics.=20 Tracker protocol is an application-level protocol for peers to = register, publish/request content and inform peers status to Trackers. It is also = for trackers to provide peer lists to peers, send control/manage messages = and communicate with other trackers. Tracker protocol can serve both live = media and Video on Demand (VoD), as well as file sharing.=20 The URL for this draft is: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-00.txt =20 We appreciate your comments. Thanks. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Regards Yingjie Gu =20 --Boundary_(ID_jZblzj96Xn7SH6S6b2ivkw) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Yingjie,

 

I agree the flexibility this function provides would be = beneficial in some scenarios, especially when streaming deadline is approaching and shorter delay is desired.

 

Cheers!

 

-Kevin

 

From:= Y.J. Gu [mailto:guyingjie@huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:31 PM
To: zengw@huawei.com; 'zhangyunfei'; 'Omer Luzzatti'; = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol

 

Hi Kevin=A3=AC

In live = streaming, Tracker is able to provide precise peerlist upon a Swarm ID. While in = VoD, there can be multiple options. A requesting peer can get some peers in a particular Swarm and ask some of them to check whether they have the = desired chunk. But considering the delay constraint in streaming, this is not an efficient way.

Another way is = what we designed in our draft. Though this is not an always guaranteed method, = the general delay is much lower than the above method. Besides, we can = develop some enhanced mechanism to reduce the delay caused by un-reported normal = buffer aging.   

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Wenjun (Kevin) Zeng = [mailto:zengw@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2010=C4=EA5=D4=C230=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D68:54
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'Y.J. Gu'; 'zhangyunfei'; 'Omer Luzzatti'; ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>: RE: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker = Protocol

 

Hi Yunfei = and Yingjie,

 

Thanks a lot for = your clarification.

Please see my = responses inline below, starting with [Kevin].

 

Best.

 

-Kevin

 

From:= Y.J. Gu [mailto:guyingjie@huawei.com]
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:30 PM
To: 'zhangyunfei'; zengw@huawei.com; 'Omer Luzzatti'; = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: =B4=F0=B8=B4: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol

 

Hi Yunfei and Kevin,

Now we have updated the Tracker protocol and will submit = soon. In the latest version, we define 2 messages. STAT-Query is used by Tracker = to query Peer information.  STAT-Report is initiated by peer to report = peer information.  But, as Yunfei said, the system statistics can also = be notified by Tracker to peers, which is an existing schedule policy in = P2P application, to improve the global performance and efficiency of PPSP. = We can extend the STAT-Report to enable Tracker notifies the system statistics information. Or, to make the syntax more legible, design a new = message.

 

 

[Kevin] Sounds good to me.

 

 

As for your 2nd question, Peer doesn=A1=AFt use = GET to get chunks information of a candidate peer, instead the chunk id in the GET = message indicate which chunks the requesting peer is interested in and Tracker = should find some candidate peers who possess the desired chunks.  And, in = the following steps, the requesting peer will get detail chunks information = by querying the candidate peers.

 

[Kevin] Sorry my fault in not clearly stating my = question. I was wondering about the benefit of a peer requesting a list of peers that = has a specific chunk from the tracker. If I understand correctly, in = BitTorrent, for example, tracker returns a list of peers in the swarm upon a request = from a joining peer. Typically requesting peer specifies only the Swarm ID (or = file ID). Specifying chunk ID in the peer list request does provide more = flexibility (and potentially a better customized peer list), but I was a bit = concerned about the synchronization of chuck availability information between = tracker and individual peers (e.g. in the case peers delete some chunks but have not updated the tracker).  But maybe a first order approximation of the = chunk availability information is sufficient in practice. =

 

As for your 3rd question, we have made removed it = from the new version.

 

Thank you very much for your comments. =

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: zhangyunfei = [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2010=C4=EA5=D4=C228=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D610:50
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: zengw@huawei.com; 'Omer Luzzatti'; 'Y.J. = Gu'; ppsp@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun'>: Re: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker = Protocol

 

Hi Kevin.

   For = the 1st question,one reason for the tracker (of course, peer can also send statistics) to send statistics message is that the tracker actively = pushes some system statistics(e.g., accumulated total upload/download = ratio, content scarcity degree,etc)to the peers and the peers can adjust its = own parameters(like caching size or upload/download = ratio)accordingly for a better display.

 

BR

Yunfei 

 

zhangyunfei

2010-05-28=

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Wenjun = (Kevin) Zeng

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA 2010-05-28 00:23:24

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA 'Omer = Luzzatti'; 'Y.J. Gu'; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: = [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker Protocol

 

Hi Yingjie and = all,

 

While reading the = tracker protocol draft, I came across the following = questions.

 

1.

The draft proposes = that =A1=B0Tracker may send STATISTICS messages to peers and peers report = with the requested information.=A1=B1  

Any reason this = should be initiated by the tracker, but not the peers? Some of the statistics = parameters defined later such as Caching size and bandwidth seem to be more static information which could be reported when joining the swarm (using = =A1=B0put=A1=B1). By the way, what is the definition of the =A1=B0content report=A1=B1 = parameter?

 

2. In the = =A1=B0put=A1=B1 and =A1=B0get=A1=B1 methods between tracker and peers, chunk ID is involved. =

I was wondering = what use cases do we have here for a peer to get the chunk information of the = candidate peers from tracker (as opposed to directly from the peers)? There could = be a synchronization issue between tracker and peers at the chunk level. This = is probably related to Omer=A1=AFs first question = below.

I can understand = having chunk info in the =A1=B0put=A1=B1 method as this could be used for calculating = statistics by the tracker.

 

3.

5.3 Statistics: =  

Peer-Communication = : 0x1 (Reserved)

why do we have = =A1=B0peer communication=A1=B1 parameter in the tracker = protocol?

 

 

Thanks and = best.

 

-Kevin

 

From:= = ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Omer Luzzatti
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 2:46 AM
To: Y.J. Gu; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker = Protocol

 

Yingjie,

 

Congrats on the = first draft of the tracker protocol, really amazing work done in short time. =

Design point to = consider:

Especially for live streaming the tracker may need = to =A1=AErecruit=A1=AF resources to the swarm. These =A1=AEhelper = nodes=A1=AF are joined nodes (and rightly you separated the =A1=AEjoin=A1=AF from the swarmID) that could = be helpful either for their bandwidth or storage. In general a tracker-originated = =A1=AEGet=A1=AF is what the server should send and the peers to be able to accept; in practice = some additional information may be needed since the peers may not be real participates in the swarm but acting in different roles (super nodes, = helpers, etc=A1=AD). Note that in VOD you may want to =A1=AEdistribute=A1=AF the = content which again will require the above. I know this complicates things significantly but = please give it a thought.

 

Questions:

1.      It is not = clear to me how a peer indicates that it =A1=AEdeleted=A1=AF a chunk from its = storage. Does a peer send the entire list of chunks in every =A1=AEput=A1=AF? this may be = good if not too segmented but still if I delete my entire =A1=AEVOD title/swarm=A1=AF = data the server should be notified.

2.      Do you = expect peers to =A1=AEput=A1=AF all of their existing storage just after = =A1=AEjoining=A1=AF?

3.      For = security reasons we may want to consider having a =A1=AEsession ID=A1=AF to the = Join response.

4.      As you = stated, for live streaming chunks won=A1=AFt be used so basically a peer will = request a peer-list to watch that =A1=AEchannel/swarm=A1=AF. However, the swarmID = may not be sufficient to indicate the entity wished to be watched. A peer may be authorized to watch the current program within the channel (the swarm) = but not the next one (say a PPV event). This problem could be solved in one the following ways: a) letting the tracker reply with a different = =A1=AEswarm-ID=A1=AF to a get request (which btw will help when having different qualities swarms, = or when there is more than one swarm representing the same content); b) = having also a program ID as part of the reply.

 

Regards and praises again for the = work

Omer

 

 

From:= ppsp-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Y.J. Gu
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 2:21 PM
To: ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: [ppsp] We have submitted a Tracker = Protocol

 

Hi everyone,
We submitted a Tracker Protocol draft for = ppsp.

 

Abstract:

   = This document defines P2P streaming Tracker Protocol, including functional = entities and architecture, components, syntax and semantics. =

   = Tracker protocol is an application-level protocol for peers to register, publish/request content and inform peers status to Trackers. It is also = for trackers to provide peer lists to peers, send control/manage messages = and communicate with other trackers. Tracker protocol can serve both live = media and Video on Demand (VoD), as well as file sharing.


The URL for this draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-p= rotocol-00.txt

 

We appreciate your = comments.
Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 =

Regards

Yingjie Gu

 

--Boundary_(ID_jZblzj96Xn7SH6S6b2ivkw)-- From Akbar.Rahman@InterDigital.com Thu Jun 10 08:51:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C453A68FC for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:51:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AToY8EOv1W6g for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idcout.InterDigital.com (idcexmail.interdigital.com [12.32.197.135]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871353A696E for ; Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from interdigital.com ([10.0.128.11]) by idcout.InterDigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:51:40 -0400 Received: from SAM.InterDigital.com ([10.30.2.12]) by interdigital.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:51:40 -0400 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:51:39 -0400 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 In-Reply-To: <20100610154506.4E8193A6A21@core3.amsl.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D Action:draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-01.txt Thread-Index: AcsItAs6ugez1HO8Q3eVbL4Hq41gOAAAGc7g References: <20100610154506.4E8193A6A21@core3.amsl.com> From: "Rahman, Akbar" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2010 15:51:40.0237 (UTC) FILETIME=[D0EAB7D0:01CB08B4] Subject: Re: [ppsp] I-D Action:draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-01.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:51:40 -0000 FYI, we have submitted an updated version of our draft for Mobility considerations in a PPSP environment. Any feedback is welcome. Akbar/Juan-Carlos/Guang -----Original Message----- From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:45 AM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-01.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : P2P Streaming for Mobile Nodes: Scenarios and Related Issues Author(s) : G. Lu, et al. Filename : draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-01.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2010-06-10 The scenarios where a Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocol (PPSP) contains mobile nodes need special considerations. An analysis of all the scenarios that involve mobile nodes is necessary to provide the guidelines to PPSP protocol design and applicability. This document describes the major scenarios for a PPSP network with mobile nodes and identifies some of the key issues. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lu-ppsp-mobile-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. From fluffy@cisco.com Mon Jun 14 09:38:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF4763A68B7 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:38:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.925 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.925 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.674, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vg2TlhAOrmor for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91DF3A67AA for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Al0FAHv4FUyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACSZ4wacaZkmXGFGgSDTQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.53,415,1272844800"; d="scan'208";a="212126916" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2010 16:38:38 +0000 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (rcdn-fluffy-8711.cisco.com [10.99.9.18]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o5EGcbsT017983 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2010 16:38:38 GMT From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Impp: xmpp:cullenfluffyjennings@jabber.org Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 10:38:37 -0600 Message-Id: <3D7FC845-6312-4856-A4BE-BF936BBD3682@cisco.com> To: ppsp@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Subject: [ppsp] Topics for next IETF meeting X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 16:38:40 -0000 Yunfei and I need to start collecting input to help us create the agenda = for the next IETF meeting. I would like everyone to think about: 1) what are the key drafts we need to make progress on ? 2) what the technical problems that need to be resolved ? 3) what order should we work on these?=20 I'm excited about the PPSP workshop later this week and hope that the = participants at it might be able to provide a little input to the above = topics.=20 Thanks, Cullen From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Jun 14 22:57:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40F63A6858 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cdE4edZ6R+qH for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4577C3A67E3 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:57:32 -0700 (PDT) To: ppsp@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:56:53 +0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Domino Web Server Release 6.5.5FP1 April 14, 2006 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-06-15 13:57:36 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [ppsp] Topics for next IETF meeting X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 05:57:42 -0000 As Cullen pointed out,the PPSP workshop will have discussions on the top= ics including PS,requirements,tracker protocols,open questions discussion r= aised in last IETF meeting and interesting topics on modeling,practical sys= tem reference for PPSP,PPSP mobile adapataion,etc. I guess that we may have further discussion on the above topics in IETF 7= 8 based on the PPSP workshop result to accelerate the progress. Please let Cullen and I know if you have more topics to discuss in next I= ETF meeting.Thanks. BR Yunfei =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=C4=FA=D4=DA=C0=B4=D0=C5=D6=D0=D0=B4=B5=BD=A3=BA=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Yunfei and I need to start collecting input to help us create the agenda fo= r the next IETF meeting. I would like everyone to think about: 1) what are the key drafts we need to make progress on ? 2) what the technical problems that need to be resolved ? 3) what order should we work on these? I'm excited about the PPSP workshop later this week and hope that the part= icipants at it might be able to provide a little input to the above topics. Thanks, Cullen =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From fluffy@cisco.com Thu Jun 24 14:28:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C942A28C0EF for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:28:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.418, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QhyOKCRc2bsu for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A02928C0F9 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AugOAPtqI0yrRN+K/2dsb2JhbACTDIRHAYdmcagLmkeFIQSDXg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.53,476,1272844800"; d="scan'208";a="338418676" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jun 2010 21:28:43 +0000 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (rcdn-fluffy-8711.cisco.com [10.99.9.18]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o5OLSaLd018554 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 21:28:43 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Impp: xmpp:cullenfluffyjennings@jabber.org From: Cullen Jennings Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 15:28:43 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <20100624211537.3783B3A6A65@core3.amsl.com> To: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Subject: [ppsp] Tentative time for PPSP at IETF 78 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 21:28:35 -0000 Note this *may* change. Begin forwarded message: > PPSP Session 1 (1.5 hours) > Tuesday, Afternoon Session II 1520-1700 Cullen Jennings For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Jun 28 07:50:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC413A6838 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:50:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.026, BAYES_99=3.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VMb1Wou-Q+4f for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBBED3A6845 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010062822501646-26296 ; Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:50:16 +0800 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:50:50 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <201006282250500620432@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-06-28 22:50:19, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-06-28 22:51:01 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon310512276838_=====" Subject: [ppsp] International P2P streaming workshop notes(Day1:Industrial and Cross Standard Organizations Discussion in P2P streaming and PPSP) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:50:57 -0000 --=====003_Dragon310512276838_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgYWxsLA0KICAgV2UgaGFkIGEgc3VjY2Vzc2Z1bCBpbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsIFAyUCBzdHJlYW1p bmcgd29ya3Nob3AgaW4gQmVpamluZyBvbiBKdW5lIDE3IGFuZCAxOC5BYm91dCAxMDAgZ3Vlc3Rz IGZyb20gSUVURiwzR1BQLElUVSBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIGluZHVzdHJpYWwgYW5kIGFjYWRlbWljIHBh cnRpcGlwYW50cyBhdHRlbmRlZCB0aGlzIHdvcmtzaG9wIHdpdGggaG90IGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb24g UFBTUCByZWxhdGVkIHN0YW5kYXJkaXphdGlvbnMuDQogICBUaGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIGlzIHRoZSB0 aGUgbm90ZXMgb24gdGhlIDFzdCBkYXkgc2Vzc2lvbjpJbmR1c3RyaWFsIGFuZCBDcm9zcyBTdGFu ZGFyZCBPcmdhbml6YXRpb25zIERpc2N1c3Npb24gaW4gUDJQIHN0cmVhbWluZyBhbmQgUFBTUC5U aGFua3MgU3BlbmNlciBmb3IgdGFraW5nIHRoZSB3b25kZXJmdWwgbm90ZXMuV2UnbGwgdXBsb2Fk 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Ni0yOA0K --=====003_Dragon310512276838_===== Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
   We had a successful internati= onal P2P=20 streaming workshop in Beijing on June 17 and 18.About 100 guests from=20 IETF,3GPP,ITU as well as industrial and academic partipipants attended this= =20 workshop with hot discussion on PPSP related standardizations.
   The following is the the note= s on the=20 1st day session:Industrial and Cross Standard Organizations Discussion in P= 2P=20 streaming and PPSP.Thanks Spencer for taking the wonderful notes.We'll uplo= ad=20 the slides in the workshop shortly and I'll let you know once they are=20 available.
 
BR
Yunfei
-------------------------------------------------------

International Peer to Peer Str= eaming=20 Industrial and Standards Workshop

June 17-18, 2010 Beijing, China=

 

Day1=A3=BAIndustrial and Cross Standard Organizations Discussion in P2P = streaming and PPSP

Notes from Spencer Dawkins

1 = ;       =20 D= etailed=20 Notes <= /o:p>

1.1     &= nbsp;         =20 Welcome=20 Speech 

Xiaoyun=20 WANG      = Deputy=20 General Manager of China Mobile Research Institute

P2P=20 has been a great success, but there is still work to do=A1=AD

1.2     &= nbsp;         =20 Opening=20 Speech   =20

Xiaohui=20 DAI     Deputy = Director-general of Technology Department of MIIT, China

This=20 was in Chinese, with subtitles =A1=AD

The=20 view is that PPSP happens in IETF, PPSP integration into IMS happens in 3GP= P,=20 and PPSP is one of the NGN architectures in ITU-T.

1.3     &= nbsp;         =20 Opening=20 Speech 

Baoxin=20 ZHOU General Secretary of CCSA

Also=20 in Chinese with subtitles =A1=AD

=A1=B0CCSA=20 has established internal counterparts with IETF and 3GPP=A1=AD=A1=B1=

Very=20 much a consolidated standards approach (ITU-T research project to push PPSP= =20 standardization in IETF).

Claiming=20 222M=20 live/on-demand video users as of June 2009, 233M mobile Internet users in China (= =A1=B0further=20 growth is expected=A1=B1).

Very=20 strong emphasis on injecting innovation into standards (not clear that you = can=20 standardize something that=A1=AFs moving this fast).

1.4     &= nbsp;         =20 P2P=20 streaming in IETF

Martin=20 Stiemerling  IETF NSIS Chair, = NEC=20 Laboratories Europe

RTSP=20 not suitable for P2P streaming (client-server assumption, no information ab= out=20 which parts of the media are available where).

Most=20 RTSP 1.0 implementations are actually pseudo-=A1=B0RTSP 1.1=A1=B1 =A8C not really implementing a= standard, and=20 extensions aren=A1=AFt interoperable =A8C standardizing a streaming control= protocol is=20 hard!

Need=20 fewer, better-documented features!

PPSP=20 must meet lots of requirements (user management, media management, descript= ion,=20 and deliver, etc), and there are lots of decision points (mesh or tree P2P?= one=20 or more scheduling algorithm(s)? single video/audio codec combination? vari= able=20 or fixed chunk sizes?)

Live=20 streaming? Video on demand? Time-shifted TV?

P2P=20 systems today tend to use a single codec (for audio/for video).

P2P=20 streaming system must be network-aware (feedback mechanisms between peers, = interaction between PPSP and network operators, like ALTO).

Proposing=20 a minimal solution to start with (join swarm, play, pause, leave swarm), wi= th=20 future features in mind.

Need=20 to give guidance to implementers.

1.5     &= nbsp;         =20 P2P=20 streaming in ITU-T

Duo=20 LIU   ITU-T SG 13 Vice Ch= air,=20 Director of Communication Standard Research Institute, CATR, MIIT

(speaking=20 without slides)

Lots=20 of study groups all working on IPTV standards (9, 12, 13, 16 =A1=AD)=

Looking=20 for guidance from 3GPP and IETF experts on two new related questions in SG1= 3,=20 multi-path and DSN.

1.6     &= nbsp;         =20 P2P=20 streaming in 3GPP

Hong=20 LIU 3GPP SA2 Vice Chair, Senior Pro= ject=20 Manager, China Mobile Research Institute

(speaking=20 without slides)

Doing=20 a high-level overview of current 3GPP work (LTE, SAE, etc).

Have=20 already standardized RTSP/RTP-based solutions in 3GPP, more recently=20 standardizing IMS-based streaming. Have just approved technical report on s= tudy=20 of P2P streaming.

Still=20 lots of unsolved problems merging P2P with existing networks =A8C especiall= y mobile=20 networks.

1.7     &= nbsp;         =20 Trend=20 and progress of P2P streaming and its industrial development 

Prof.=20 Ziqiang HOU  Professor of CAS,= Member=20 of Communication Science & Technology Committee, MIIT

Usual=20 assortment of Internet TV technology names plus cloud computing as=20 infrastructure=A1=AD

View=20 that the Internet terminal will be TVs, mobile devices, or both.

IPTV=20 as a closed system, Internet TV as an open system.

Most=20 network service in China is 2Mbps (capable of sup= porting=20 720P HDTV). Some service is 4Mbps (capable of supporting 1280 HDTV).=

CNTV=20 supporting P2P mode on CBox client software, B/S mode on browsers.

New=20 offering is 3D video.

Morgan=20 Stanley thinks video is already (in 2009) the largest category of Internet = traffic, and also the fastest-growing.

For=20 cloud computing infrastructure:

  • Digitizing, mass storage, index and mining of TV=20 content=20
  • Support=20 environment for PP2P
    • =

50M=20 simultaneous mobile browser users in 2009Q3. 61 percent of mobile browser u= sers=20 have UCWEB browser, 25 percent have OperaMini.

1700=20 terrabit capacity for CDN.

www.p2p-next.com=20 is EU project.

Suggesting=20 that DVB adopt an optional P2PP interface as an enhancement.

Chinese=20 National Information Technology Standardization committee started P2P=20 standardization working group in August 2008. Producing a DDP discovery pro= tocol=20 =A8C what=A1=AFs the relationship with P2P work in IETF?

1.8     &= nbsp;         =20 DSN=20 streaming introduction      =20

Jin=20 PENG      =20 Technical Manager of Network Architecture Laboratory, CMRI

Motivations=20 for DSN are large-scale streaming support, reduced CAPEX/OPEX, and momentum= for=20 the future from a new technology.

CAPEX/OPEX=20 is longest list of bullets =A8C want to use idle computing resources throug= hout the=20 network and use inexpensive clustered infrastructure to achieve required=20 performance at lower costs.

View=20 is that content switches aren=A1=AFt an evolution of VoIP switches because = content=20 can be cached and distributed throughout the network. Content already domin= ates=20 their networks, so that=A1=AFs what they need to optimize for.

Three=20 overlays =A8C a VoIP overlay, a content overlay, and a relay overlay.

Have=20 already demoed VoIP calls through P2P overlay =A8C Network Function Node su= pports=20 50-100K subscribers per node =A8C they have a 6M-user switch equivalent in their 60-blade l= ab=20 system.

We=A1=AFre=20 right at the beginning of PPSP standardization in IETF =A8C working group w= as=20 chartered in March 2010.

Really=20 interesting slide 12 showing relationship between P2PSIP/RELOAD, ALTO, and = PPSP=20 protocols. We needed this slide two years ago when CMCC started holding bar= BOFs=20 at IETFs!

1.9     &= nbsp;         =20 UUSee=20 Practice and its standards considerations 

Harold=20 LIU      C= TO of=20 UUSee

=A1=B0The=20 most Economical, Flexible and Extendible Network=A1=B1

30M=20 active monthly subscribers, over 1M=20 concurrent users watching Olympics in Beijing.

Concerned=20 about increasing cost of video distribution to huge number of users for HD = content.

View=20 that they must provide a higher QoS for P2P streaming (why?).

Concerned=20 about delivering content at the end of the long tail (when almost no one ha= s the=20 content).

Using=20 P2SP protocol to improve QoS =A8C want&nb= sp;=20 a standardized interface so telecom carriers, P2P vendors and CDN ve= ndors=20 can cooperate.

P2SP=20 protocol is intelligent enough to deliver content through P2P or CDN depend= ing=20 on the quality of service.

P2SP=20 presents a CDN client interface to CDN =A8C can deploy P2P with no impact o= n=20 CDN.

New=20 technologies =A8C time-shifting for live-broadcasting with P2P, P2P on mobi= le=20 platforms (Android, iPhone).

Advice=20 to PPSP =A8C use standard network protocols, use open/mature technology to = set up=20 supernode, standardize content format, standardize network information exch= ange=20 protocol so each P2P vendor can optimize its own strategy.

UUsee=20 wants to have deep cooperation with telecom carriers, participate in PPSP=20 standardization discussions, and offer a testbed for PPSP implementations. =

1.10     &= nbsp;   =20 Internet=20 Use, Mobile Internet Use, and Video=20 Use      =20

Xiaodong=20 Lee  Vice President and CTO of= =20 CNNIC

(speaking=20 in Chinese with English slides)

346M<= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-bidi-f= ont-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN">=20 broadband Internet users at end of 2009. 284M video users at end of 2009 (if I capture= d the=20 number correctly from his slides).

Subscribers=20 spending more time online (16.6 hours/week in 2008, 18.7 hours/week in 2009= ).=20 Most are still leisure time-only users (so emphasis is on recreational=20 applications).

Large=20 gap in Internet penetration between Eastern=20 China and the rest of the country. Beijing and Shanghai are about 65-62 percent, respec= tively.=20

Computer=20 (non-laptop) usage is down in 2009. Laptop usage is up slightly, but mobile= =20 devices is up from 40 percent to 60 percent of users reporting that they us= ed=20 this category of device.

233M<= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-bidi-f= ont-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN">=20 mobile Internet users at end of 2009. More than half of mobile Internet use= rs=20 surf the Internet for more than an hour per day.

91=20 percent of mobile Internet users have read news on a cell phone.

More=20 people will pay for eBooks than anything else. More people will accept ads = in=20 video than in anything else.

240M<= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-bidi-f= ont-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN">=20 Internet video users at end of 2009. More than 95 percent have used Interne= t=20 video with broadband access. More than 54 percent of broadband access is 2M= bps=20 or higher (can support HD Internet video).

Only=20 10.7 percent of Internet video users use HD =A1=B0often=A1=B1.

About=20 half of users use Internet video at least once per day. About 80 percent of= =20 users have shared video, including talking and IM (this is sharing with a k= nown=20 person, not sharing with the public).

Most=20 users think ads in Internet video are at least acceptable (if they don=A1= =AFt=20 interfere with viewing, if the ads are good, and other caveats all=20 apply).

Internet=20 video usage tends to displace TV viewing =A8C often, users quit watching TV= =20 altogether.

1.11     &= nbsp;   =20 Ravy=20 architecture and important points for PPSP      =20

Omer=20 Luzzatti CTO of RayV

Their=20 core technical team is from VocalTech, who did VoIP in 1995.

Major=20 business case seems to be based on asymmetric bandwidth (download vs. uploa= d),=20 adding =A1=B0typical=A1=B1 nodes, streaming to each of them, and redistribu= ting from them=20 to other peers (so they are =A1=B0amplifiers=A1=B1).

Telco=20 requirements =A8C SLA, stream must exist= in=20 =A1=B0reliable sources=A1=B1, low delay (8-10 seconds) with fast channel sw= itching,=20 minimize number of hops, synchronize clocks between peers, use push protoco= l=20 from donor.

Business=20 rules from content owners (operators, ISPs, and telcos), plus technical=20 rules.

Also=20 need reporting (including real-time monitoring and data mining) and securit= y=20 (access control, maybe DRM, per-program ability to stop viewing).

1.12     &= nbsp;   =20 Streaming=20 applications: Operator's opportunities and challenges  

Fei=20 YUAN      =20 Director of Standards Department, ZTE

In=20 China, video/streaming on the = Internet has been the 4th most popular application.

Expecting=20 that edge network architecture will be further flattened, topology-based tr= affic=20 optimization (P4P, ALTO) would be introduced, DPI would be used to improve = the=20 interaction between application layer and bearer layer, and cache technolog= y=20 would be used to resolve the issue of bandwidth bottlenecks.

FT,=20 China Telecom and PCCW all have more than 1M IPTV subscribers. CAGR is about 50 percent= per=20 year.

China=20 is still at the beginning of CDN deployment and views P2P as a way to leapf= rog=20 other markets.

Improving=20 Quality of Experience (QoE) =A8C Application Layer Forward Error Correction= and=20 Fast Channel Change.

CDN=20 has already been widely deployed in IPTV. Want to use P2P technology for a = distributed and cooperative CDN.

1.13     &= nbsp;   =20 Xunlei=20 Streaming Practice    =20

Paul=20 HUANG  Vice President of Xunle= i=20 Corp.

Was=20 not able to attend this workshop.

1.14     &= nbsp;   =20 IETF=20 PPSP activities <= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-bidi-font-family: = =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN">

Yunfei=20 ZHANG       = IETF PPSP Chair, CMCC

CMCC=20 has seen lots of proprietary P2P streaming systems, and the problem is that= =20 these systems are optimized for existing network infrastructure =A8C there= =A1=AFs no=20 attempt to do system-wide optimization. Can=A1=AFt reuse infrastructure for= other=20 applications.

Tudou=20 with PPLive is using P2P accelerators with HTTP streaming.

DPI=20 equipment must be updated continuously because P2P streaming applications c= hange=20 so often =A8C there=A1=AFs no stable way to recognize this traffic.<= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-bidi-font-family: = =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN">

CMCC=20 believes that the rapid growth in mobile Internet usage signals an opportun= ity=20 to migrate to standardized PPSP before deployment of proprietary P2P stream= ing=20 services is complete.

Want=20 running code for PPSP within two years, implementing a uniform application-= layer=20 P2P streaming signaling protocol for a variety of applications, media types= , and=20 P2P network node types.

PPSP=20 is tracker-based, and includes two protocols =A8C a tracker protocol with=20 peer/content registration and peer request/response, and a peer protocol th= at=20 supports chunk exchange signaling.

Want=20 to use P2PSIP/RELOAD for tracker protocol. May use ALTO to choose better pe= ers=20 (but ALTO tracker-to-server operation isn=A1=AFt chartered yet). May use LE= DBAT for=20 transmission.

DECADE=20 may be complementary to PPSP, but won=A1=AFt be part of PPSP itself.=

The=20 P2P Research Group may also be used to research open questions.

Expect=20 to use PPSP for 3GPP P2P CDS, ITU-T DSN, and TISPAN P2P CDN.

1.15     &= nbsp;   =20 P2P=20 Streaming: key issues and industrial deployments     <= B>

Zhijia=20 Chen     Techni= ques=20 and Standards Director of Force Innovations Technology Inc.

Lots=20 of new algorithms =A8C content-driven peer selection algorithm, piece-on-de= mand,=20 rapid live chunk delivery algorithm =A1=AD

This=20 is the P2P content distribution system that China Mobile is using in their = testing.

1.16     &= nbsp;   =20 IMS-based=20 Peer-to-Peer Content Distribution Services in   3GPP SA1

Gang LI        =  =20 3GPP SA1 CDS Chair, CMCC

CMCC=20 has large-scale IMS deployment which has been focused on telecommunications= =20 services, but they want to do content-based services.

Want=20 to use P2P to optimize the media plane for multimedia distribution services= ,=20 relieving bandwidth and content server workload.

SA1=20 completed its study in May 2010 and sent a liaison inviting SA2 to work on = IMS-based peer-to-peer content distribution services.

Adding=20 User Peer, Network Peer, and Tracker Server to IMS architecture.

Use=20 cases are Content on Demand, Live Streaming, and File Distribution.<= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-bidi-font-family: = =CB=CE=CC=E5; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN">

Hmmm.=20 They are concerned about battery life when viewing movies, but want to use = P2P=20 to have the UAs use more battery power when streaming to other UAs=A1=AD

Open=20 questions =A8C how to guarantee QoS of P2P live streaming (which may be sub= ject to=20 =A1=B0flash crowds=A1=B1? How to deploy appropriate network peers in macro = mobile, home=20 mobile and fixed broadband networks?

1.17     &= nbsp;   =20 Network Assisted Mobile Pee= r to Peer=20 Content Distribution   &nbs= p;=20

Dr.  Jim WU  Motorola UK

SA1=20 WID on P2P is still =A1=B1TBD=A1=B1.

Two=20 technical specifications in SA4 =A8C TS 26.237 and 26.114.

Progressive=20 download is supported by most media players and platforms, and popular=20 video-sharing websites.

Selecting=20 =A1=B0appropriate radio access technology=A1=B1 for wireless peers (trusted= users sharing=20 the same wifi hotspot, for example).

Operators=20 don=A1=AFt want to be =A1=B0dumb pipes=A1=B1.

Preferring=20 network-tracker-assisted peer selection.

Further=20 research on wide area radio resource usage reduction is required.

1.18     &= nbsp;   =20 3GPP SA2 considerations on P2P Streaming     =20

Qing=20 YU  Project Manager, CMRI

Principles=20 =A8C keep the separation between control and media plane, reuse SIP URI/E.1= 64 as=20 identities, reuse Gm interface, optimize media plane using P2P streaming be= tween=20 UEs.

Want=20 to do =A1=B0loose control=A1=B1 =A8C where not all signaling messages to/fr= om tracker=20 traverse IMS Core. This lessens the load on the IMS Core.

China=20 Mobile has developed a =A1=B0loose control=A1=B1 demo system and will now p= ush forward a=20 technical trial during the next two years.

China=20 Mobile is now planning to request new work in SA2 that will lead to more wo= rk in=20 SA3 and SA5.

1.19     &= nbsp;   =20 Pandora=A1=AFs=20 Box - P2P Security and Considerations in 3GPP SA3

Judy=20 Zhu China Mobile

P2P=20 has the same security threats as any other Internet Protocol-based=20 network.

Asserting=20 that we can use the characteristics of the mobile Internet to improve secur= ity=20 between the mobile Internet and the Internet at large =A8C not sure I under= stand=20 this.

Asserting=20 that because P2P has better performance, it will also spread threats=20 faster=A1=AD

DSN=20 security logic architecture =A8C 8 considerations, but only one goes=20 end-to-end?

SA3=20 prepares to propose a study of security together with SA1 and SA2.

1.20     &= nbsp;   =20 IPTV,=20 CDN and P2P: TISPAN Standardization and Future Outlook 

Zhipeng=20 ZHOU      =20 Huawei

Will=20 Li (Li Jincheng) is actual presenter (Zhipeng=A1=AFs flight from Shenzhen w= as=20 cancelled).

TISPAN=20 CDN (WI 2076) is now in Stage 2 (Architecture). Planned to complete in Sept= ember=20 2010, with protocol work (Stage 3) initiated afterwards.

Functional architecture uses three layers.

zhangyunfei
2010-06-28
--=====003_Dragon310512276838_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Jun 28 07:55:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32E23A68CC for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:55:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.377, BAYES_95=3, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=1.456, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3vw5MAFU6nXu for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55E03A6845 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2010 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List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:55:39 -0000 --=====003_Dragon605547614681_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" VGhlIHdvcmtzaG9wIG5vdGVzIG9uIDJuZCBkYXkuVGhhbmtzIENocmlzdGlhbiBhbmQgU3BlbmNl ciBmb3IgdGFraW5nIHRoZSBub3Rlcy5QbGVhc2UgdGFrZSBhIGNhcmVmdWwgbG9vayBvZiBpdCBz byB0aGF0IHdlIGNhbiBoYXZlIHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIGF0IElFVEYgNzggYmFzZWQgb24gdGhp cy4NCg0KQlINCll1bmZlaQ0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgUGVlciB0byBQZWVyIFN0cmVh bWluZyBJbmR1c3RyaWFsIGFuZCBTdGFuZGFyZHMgV29ya3Nob3ANCkp1bmUgMTctMTgsIDIwMTAg QmVpamluZywgQ2hpbmENCiANCkRheSAyOiBJRVRGIFBQU1AgcmVsYXRlZCBpc3N1ZXMuDQpIb3N0 77yaWXVuZmVpIFpoYW5nIGFuZCBEYXZpZCBCeXJhbg0KTm90ZXM6Q2hyaXN0aWFuIFNjaG1pZHQg YW5kIFNwZW5jZXIgRGF3a2lucywgZWRpdGVkIGJ5IFl1bmZlaSBaaGFuZw0KIA0KTGFycyBFZ2dl 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The workshop notes on 2nd day.= Thanks=20 Christian and Spencer for taking the notes.Please take a careful look of it= so=20 that we can have the discussion at IETF 78 based on this.

 

BR

Yunfei

--------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------

International Peer to Peer Str= eaming=20 Industrial and Standards Workshop

June 17-18, 2010 Beijing, China=

 

Day 2: IETF=20 PPSP related issues.

Host= =EF=BC=9AYunfei Zhang and David Byran

Notes:Christian Schmidt=20 and Spencer Dawkins, edited by Yunfei Zhang

 

Lars Eggert (IETF Area Directo= r for=20 Transport):

=E2=80=9CThis is not an offici= al IETF=20 meeting.=E2=80=9D

 

Yunfei:=20 Agenda=20 bashing     =20

 WS rules:

-      &= nbsp;  =20 In contrast to Day 1 of the workshop, there will be the possib= ility=20 for discussions using a microphone within the room.

-      &= nbsp;  =20 The meeting will be held in IETF manor, questions are possible= during=20 the presentation.

-      &= nbsp;  =20 Will=20 make a transcript from this session for the IETF provided by Christian Schmidt=20 and Spencer Dawkins,=20 so we won=E2=80=99t have to have the same discussions again at IETF 78.

 

Yunfei Zhang pres= ented=20 problem statement of PPSP.

[PPSP Statement @PPSP Workshop1.ppt]

     PPLive=20 broadcast Chinese spring festival for American Chinese using Pando network,= but=20 there are few American Chinese using PPLive=E2=80=A6 need to replace propri= etary systems=20 with standardized systems.

We=20 have multiple client implementations (one per proprietary signaling system)= in a=20 single client. (And China has experience with clie= nts=20 deleting competing clients in the same terminal)

Proprietary=20 signaling leads to difficult interactions =E2=80=93 CDN node can=E2=80=99t = identify different=20 private systems. CDN/Cache is updating its protocol using case-by-case=20 negotiations.

CDN=20 doesn=E2=80=99t know how to report to multiple trackers.

Current=20 proprietary protocols don=E2=80=99t address unreliable network connections,= battery=20 power life, and different media coding for mobile devices.

We=20 know we can standardize something, because the major systems are so similar= =20 (tracker-based, inter-peer communication process). Want to focus on key iss= ues=20 and not reinvent the wheel.

P2PNext=20 thinks broadcasters are anxious to ditch their proprietary protocols in fav= or of=20 a standardized solution. PPLive seems to be the major P2P service that=E2= =80=99s on=20 board.

Still=20 thinking of GGSN as the Supernode in some architectures.

BitTorrent=20 is good reference for open tracker protocol, but has a global view of all p= eers=20 (need to change this to scale), and has different requirements/user visitin= g=20 patterns (video quality/delay, channel switching, recruiting additional pee= rs,=20 and supernode/peer role differences).

Would=20 like to use both UDP and TCP to exchange chunk information, but they need I= CE=20 for NAT traversal, and TCP-ICE is stalled with no one actively working on i= t in=20 IETF.

David Bryan prese= nted PPSP=20 protocol considerations

[PPSP Protocol=20 Considerations.ppt]

Two=20 protocols (tracker and peer protocols), but they can=E2=80=99t exist in iso= lation (peer=20 lists would be common, for example =E2=80=93 whether they are peer IDs or I= P addresses,=20 for example).

Tracker could be a DHT, but that would be invisible to the pee= rs=20 (client-server interface from tracker).

Doing=20 two tasks (live streaming and offline/timeshifted streaming). BitTorrent is= =20 well-suited to offline use case, but BitTorrent provides a random sample of= =20 peers =E2=80=93 works fine for filesharing, but you might not get a set of = peers that=20 contains all the chunks with live streaming.

BitTorrent=20 doesn=E2=80=99t have authentication. HTTP approach is =E2=80=9Csomewhat hea= vy=E2=80=9D. Could=20 incorporate metadata into tracker, but that=E2=80=99s not in BitTorrent now= =E2=80=93 we=E2=80=99d need=20 syntax for these files.

BitTorrent=20 peers use a simple gossip protocol =E2=80=93 unstructured, not a DHT, no=20 searching.

Regular HTTP is used to obtain= the=20 torrent from a web server

The tracker protocol is also H= TTP,=20 essentially GET to ask for a list of peers/join=20 swarm

The peer protocol is a TCP wir= e=20 protocol (binary)

 

01=20 draft revision =E2=80=9Ccoming soon=E2=80=9D.

For=20 peer protocol:

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 New transport is out of scope.=20

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 Not=20 clear whether we can reuse RELOAD from P2PSIP, or whether we need something= =20 lighter. RELOAD has been revised to support unstructured overlays, but we d= on=E2=80=99t=20 have any experience with that yet.

= Do you = find a=20 peer and stream from it, even for timeshifted? Could use RTP for=20 that.

 

Lars Eggert: Bothers me to use different=20 transports in case of live streaming and=20 download.

Audience: With RTP you could not do progressive=20 download. You could just fill the buffer.

Lars=20 Eggert:=20 has anyone looked at the research papers on live streaming in BitTorrent? D= avid=20 is aware of these.

Lars Eggert: we=E2=80=99re doing = protocols, not=20 defining local behavior. Don=E2=80=99t need to do that for interoperability= .=20 We need somebody to tel= l us, if=20 we have the right and=20 sufficient=20 meta-system for=20 this.

David Bryan: Extensibility is not a critical issu= e here.=20 Metadata may be a significant part of the protocol.

Martin=20 =E2=80=93 P-exchange (not pure gossip).

David=20 =E2=80=93 there are more sophisticated gossip protocols that could deal wit= h DOS=20 attacks.

Omer Luzzatti: Who i= s=20 responsible for=20 allocating bandwidth= that=E2=80=99s=20 needed for a channel? It could only be tracker.=20 Huge difference betwe= en file=20 sharing and live streaming.

 

It has to provide=20 balancing. It has to do peer switching for the benefit for all. This would = not=20 work here. Peer=20 could request more=20 resources from super nodes. Tracker must provide more then peer=20 selection.

ALTO has been focused on BitTorrent, now looking at CDN. Are y= ou=20 looking at ALTO yet? Haven=E2=80=99t looked at this much, but really need t= o hear from=20 people who have implemented these systems (don=E2=80=99t need theory).=20

D= avid=20 Bryan: That=E2=80=99s the point, where ALTO fits into, e.g. for load balanc= ing. There=20 are a lot of open questions here. We have to provide flexibility here, e.g.= also=20 for different providers.

Lars Eggert: ALTO is mor= e for=20 first peer selection. Do not forget DECADE, provi= ding=20 network internal resources. Problem: Building a complete p2p system is too = much=20 for a single Working Group. We should concentrate on basic solutions first.= We=20 need to talk with people, running these systems, not to standardize the wro= ng=20 protocols.

Stefeno: ALTO could = be of=20 benefit. Do you see architectural requirements in this case? Difference in = ALTO implem= entation=20 point is not dramatic. We have the same kind of=20 context.

David Bryan: It could be the r= ight=20 tool, but we need feedback from vendors.

 

Lars Eggert: How to = find=20 the proper source for live streaming?

David Bryan: That is= the=20 piece of = information that is currently missing in ALTO.

Spencer:=20 Would you use the same ALTO for live streaming and for filesharing? Not cle= ar =E2=80=93=20 it should be application-agnostic, but not clear that this is realistic. Wh= at=20 matters for file-sharing is bandwidth and TTL, what matters for live stream= ing=20 is whether you have the right chunks and TTL.

Really=20 hard for tracker to know what chunks a peer really has =E2=80=93 if you sai= d =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m at one=20 hour=E2=80=9D and then paused for ten minutes, how does the tracker know wh= ether you are=20 now at one hour or at 70 minutes?

Martin Stiemerling: We should keep c= ongestion=20 information out of ALTO?

Does RELOAD support unstructured overlays? Two of the three pr= otocols=20 merged for current RELOAD supported unstructured overlays, but we haven=E2= =80=99t=20 verified that current RELOAD still supports unstructured overlays at a=20 sufficiently low level of overhead to make it an appropriate protocol for P= PSP.=20

David will be working on a RELOAD usage draft in PPSP as a pro= of of=20 concept (RELOAD usages go to the working group that=E2=80=99s planning to u= se RELOAD,=20 not to the P2PSIP working group).

Yunfei Zhang: Hope=20 so that we can reuse=20 Reload=20 in PPSP.

 

(Lars=20 says LEDBAT is picking up steam with its new chair, will be working on UDP = implementation =E2=80=93 this is good).

 

Yishuai Chen pres= ented Open=20 Issues in PPSP

[Open Issue-v2.ppt] Beijing Jiao Tong=20 University

Cited=20 a couple of interesting-looking studies: =E2=80=9CA measurement study of a = large-scale=20 P2P IPTV System=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CLive streaming performance of the Zat= too=20 Network=E2=80=9D.

Basically going through existing protocols and explaining why = they=20 aren=E2=80=99t quite appropriate for PPSP=E2=80=A6=

How PPSP reuse existed=20 protocol?

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Peer <->Tracker Protocol

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 BitTorrent

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 eMule

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Peer <-> Peer Protocol

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 RTP

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 RTCP

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 RTSP

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 LEDBAT

 

Martin Stiemerling: What is a sub strea= m based=20 system?

Yishuai Chen: RTP dividing of = streams=20 to sub streams.

Omer Luzzatti: Sub stream enables push protocol, needs request/respon= se=20 protocol.

Yishuai Chen: How about RTP, RTSP? SeqNo and Time= stamp=20 are required.<= /P>

David Bryan: RTCP provides feedback, can image th= is=20 functionality for PPSP. Do you want to reinvent this in the PPSP=20 protocol?

Yishuai Chen: Yes, I think=20 so.

 

Lars Eggert: As=20 for the number of the connections, you want to download from 50 peers or more=20 simultaneous. Is this the number of peers for the whole time or real=20 simultaneous?

Omer Luzzatti: In our system, = we=20 download from up to 50 peers and super-nodes simultaneously and this in no = problem.

Lars Eggert: Which system did = you=20 measure?

Yishuai Chen:=20 PPLive

 

Martin Stiemerling: Using RTP = between=20 peers, what about scalability issues. Usually we are using chunk with bitma= ps to=20 keep it short. What size of bitmaps do you use? Bitmaps could be really=20 big.

 

Zhao Youn-xiang p= resented=20 signal frequency in streaming system

[signal.ppt]

Measurement in p2p streaming network= s=20 indicate that there is 30-40% overhead. Seeing=20 1.3 Tbytes sent, but only 1 Tbytes received =E2=80=93 where did the rest go= ?

Looks=20 like upstream access link buffers can hold 40-50 packets, but drop packets = if=20 the burst is bigger than that, so assuming that packet loss is happening in= the=20 access links due to large bursts=E2=80=A6

Believe=20 that most overhead happens just after a piece is released into the network = =E2=80=93=20 only a few peers have the piece, and many peers request it, leading to seri= ous=20 contention.

Lars Eggert: problem is actually = that=20 you=E2=80=99re not backing off (in the model, not backing off at all) in th= e presence of=20 congestion =E2=80=93 that gives you high overhead/loss rates because you ha= ve no=20 feedback loop. Lars is concerned that this accurately matches what=E2=80=99= s really=20 being deployed.

TCP could be used to reduce pa= cket loss=20 due to overload situation with feedback to the sender to reduce the data ra= te.=20 With this you could reach a reduction of overhead. Your model is too simpli= stic.=20 You can reduce the number of copies you send out=20 simultaneous.

David Bryan: A lot of systems do this nasty think= . It is=20 not good but a lot of them doing this=20 because they=E2=80= =99re trying to=20 maximize the global bandwidth being transferred. That=E2=80=99s a huge=20 problem.

Omer Luzzatti: This shows, the current solutions have some se= rious=20 problems. What is the propagation time releasing data to the=20 users?

Zhao Young-xiang: No measureme= nt=20 made.

Omer Luzzatti: Congestion control has different=20 solutions in p2p systems. Can we add more pee= rs? That=20 is the actual congestion control in p2p networks. Advantage for SCTP. We us= e=20 push idea.

Zhao Young-xiang: Mixture betw= een push=20 and pull could be the optimal solution.

Spencer Dawkins: We have start= ed to=20 avoid TCP, perhaps we have over-compensated?

The reaction on network losses was adding more an= d more=20 buffers, simply adding queuin= g delay=20 .This could be a bigger= problem=20 for real-time traffic than for bittorrent usage.

Lars Eggert: Buffering causes proble= ms,=20 adding about 400msec round delay. IETF did care of congestion control only = for a=20 single flow, not a group of flows. We do not know how to handle the aggrega= te=20 set of connections.

We tried to avoid congestion c= ollapse.=20 We tried to establish some kind of fairness between the various flows.=20

David Bryan: These systems do = not use=20 these methods.

Lars Eggert: Congestion between Live Streaming an= d Real=20 time communication at access seems to be unlikely.

Spencer=20 Dawkins: The=20 IETF once thought all transports should act like TCP. We don=E2=80=99t thin= k that any=20 more, but we may have overcompensated for the earlier restrictions.<= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93; mso-bidi-font-fa= mily: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN">

 

LEDBAT=20 is chartered to think about advice for multiple flows, but we don=E2=80=99t= have an=20 answer in the IETF yet (=E2=80=9Cresearch topic=E2=80=9D).

We=20 don=E2=80=99t have a fairness vision for these applications, either. We=E2= =80=99re probably not=20 looking at congestive collapse of the Internet, but we could be looking at = starvation of well-behaved applications. Lars thinks that MIGHT be OK, but = it=E2=80=99s=20 still an open question.

M2M=20 networks assume that core networks are congestion-free =E2=80=93 M2M can di= stribute=20 traffic across the whole networks, and M2M communications can =E2=80=9Crun = away=E2=80=9D from a=20 congested link by choosing a different peer to communicate with. If there= =E2=80=99s a=20 bottleneck link, it would be at the access link.

What=E2=80=99s=20 being proposed in this presentation will result in sustained congestion col= lapse=20 if there IS congestion in the core network =E2=80=93 peers continue to requ= est the same=20 chunks when the chunks aren=E2=80=99t being received, and the speaker isn= =E2=80=99t describing=20 any backoff mechanism at all.

This=20 is a really important discussion topic =E2=80=93 maybe work for the IAB=E2= =80=A6

 

 

David Bryan prese= nted a=20 Tracker Protocol Proposal

[Tracker=20 Protocol.ppt]

Presentations related to=20 encoding/transport, used messages, header examples and open=20 issues.

 

Is=20 there a reason NOT to use TCP/TLS for transport?

Lars Eggert: Use TCP for=20 Transport

Martin Stiemerling: Tracker ca= n also=20 poll peers, that requests TCP, e.g. for NAT=20 traversal.

David Bryan: Good=20 point

Spencer Dawkins: Do you want t= o=20 reinvent ICE?

David Bryan: Reload does not fit into this PPSP=20 solution.

Lars Eggert: Do I need to keep= the=20 connection to the tracker open during the streaming or can I close them eve= ry=20 time.

David Bryan: Depends on the qu= estion,=20 if TLS is appropriate.

Lars Eggert: Cache this or reo= pen the=20 TLS connection.

David Bryan: Not thought about= the=20 question.

Henning Schulzrinne: Perhaps the client do= es not know that the connection=20 has failed. <= SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-US=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-fareast-font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93; mso-= bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN">Be very c= lear=20 about the relationship between TCP connections and associations =E2=80=93 d= on=E2=80=99t tie=20 these together, that=E2=80=99s why we have cookies. Not worried about massi= ve number of=20 connections until you get to 500K =E2=80=93 above that is hard, below that = is=20 OK.

Henning Schulzrinne: Binary vs Text = encoding:=20 5-10% optimizing reasonable?=20 Don=E2=80=99t do reinvention of HTTP, either! Is this a symmetric protocol?= Then HTTP=20 would be the wrong model. STATS message is the one that breaks the client-s= erver=20 model. Need to know who has to talk to whom, for how long, who initiates, e= tc.=20

Server-originated=20 JOIN request?

Metafile=20 isn=E2=80=99t quite the same between video on demand and live streaming (do= n=E2=80=99t do MD5=20 for live streaming?). This is what we need deployment experience with, to m= ake=20 sure we=E2=80=99re meeting the needs.

If=20 we do unstructured, we probably need to do IP addresses =E2=80=93 can=E2=80= =99t search=20 meaningfully in an unstructured overlay of millions of peers.

Draft=20 update will have =E2=80=9Chard questions=E2=80=9D section. David is hoping = for agenda time at=20 IETF 78 to discuss these.

 

Akbar Rahman pres= ented P2P=20 Streaming for Mobile Nodes: Scenarios and Related=20 Issues

[P2P Streaming for Mobile Nodes=5F01.pptx]

=C2=B7      &= nbsp; =20 The scenarios where P2P streaming networks contain mobile node= s=20 require special consideration to deal with issues such=20 as:

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Change of Peer IP address (possibly=20 rapidly/frequently)

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Extra latency in data path (due to mobility=20 protocols)

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Mobile device constraints

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Etc.

 

Lin Xiao: Assumption on network layer. All can be= solved=20 by MIP or PMIP.

Akbar Rahman: That is the next scenario. This sce= nario=20 assumes no MIP support.

Lars Eggert: Why should the pe= er update=20 the tracker? How often? This is the old seamless problem. We will never bee= n=20 able to fix.

Spencer Dawnkins: We will neve= r been=20 able to provide seamless mobility. Handover between cellular and WiFi that= =E2=80=99s=20 ambiguous.

Audience: My Iphone do this a = lot, we=20 have at least to consider it.

Spencer Dawnkins: For this pur= pose, you=20 should use mobile IP.

Yunfei Zhang: Mobility=20 doesn=E2=80=99t=20 lead to so serious for p2p performance. Most mob= ility=20 changes can be ignored due to the cache.

Chunxi=20 Li: Agree.Performance of PPLive Simulation. If= mobile=20 devices are in a minority, than a good performance can be reached. Buffer c= an=20 tolerate certain mobility.

David Bryan: We need to have s= ome level=20 on staleness in the tracker. A more persistent connection could be causing = problems.

Lars Eggert: There=E2=80=99s=20 a line where so many peers are switching IP addresses that the system is no= =20 longer useful.

Lars=EF=BC=9ASeeing=20 more handset vendors talking about multi-homing, so that devices have more = than=20 one active interface, and the IP address in the peer-list is still active = =E2=80=93=20 limiting to a single active interface is probably a mistake.

Lars=EF=BC=9Aon=E2=80=99t=20 think MIP6/PMIP6 is the likely scenario =E2=80=93 need to make sure that wh= atever we do=20 works without MIP6/PMIP6.

MIP6/PMIP6=20 may introduce extra latency due to tunneling.

Henning=EF=BC=9A=20 MIP isn=E2=80=99t widely deployed now, and if it is widely deployed in the = future, it=E2=80=99s=20 likely to be MIP6, not MIP4, which is much less likely to experience triang= le=20 routing. This isn=E2=80=99t a real problem, don=E2=80=99t worry about unrea= l=20 problems.

HIP=20 is being considered for mobility support in RELOAD =E2=80=93 need to look a= t PPSP-RELOAD=20 interactions for HIP (and MIP6, and PMIP6, and =E2=80=A6)

Henning Schulzrinne: This is not rea= lly a=20 P2PSIP WG consensus. You depend on something, not ready and widely=20 deployed.

 

Interaction between geo-targeting and IP mobility=EF=BC=9A

Lars Eggert: Why do you want t= o solve=20 this at the data layer? Why do you not try to confirm this during joining. = You=20 should not link the decision on IP basis.

Spencer Dawnkins: This is not = a PPSP=20 problem.

Lars Eggert: For client / server based solution t= his is=20 exactly the same=20 problem.

David Bryan: Rat hole kind of = issue,=20 perhaps we should not reinvent this any way. Perhaps it could be done on=20 application level. We should not do this on protocol level. We should add t= his=20 to the list of things we want to leave out of=20 scope.

Lin Xiao: Basic Mobility Probl= ems are=20 not PPSP specific and should be done e.g. in MIP.<= /P>

Audience: Is IP address chance= s on=20 multiple IP address PPSP specific?

Lin Xiao: Not PPSP=20 specific.

Yunfei Zhang: To=20 see=20 if works for IP layer mobility management. If there are big problem,=20 perhaps we need additio= nal=20 application layer information.

Lars Eggert: we should definitely= say=20 something about battery-operated devices in P2P streaming systems =E2=80=93= maybe not=20 for PPSP, but if not, for P2PRG. May be able to add network infrastructure = to=20 avoid having battery-operated devices streaming content to other users and = exhausting batteries in a short time.

Audience: If I change IP addre= ss,=20 another peer can not continue download from me. We need more super-nodes to= =20 download information for others.

 

Christian Schmidt= presented=20 QoS for p2p live streaming

[QoS for PPSP Live=20 Streamingb.ppt]

Main=20 messages:

  • No quality of s= ervice for=20 p2p live streaming is not good enough
  • Competing techn= ologies are=20 traditional TV broadcast and Client/Server live streaming=20 solution.
  • QoS for p2p liv= e streaming=20 is different for other p2p services, e.g. file sharing, multimedia=20 communication and p2p video on demand.
  • QoS Improvement= can be=20 reached by additional streaming distribution within the network and usage= of=20 streaming quality information from peers for optimal source=20 selection.

Henning=EF=BC=9AWe=E2=80=99ve=20 tried QoS classes before, for a long time, with less than ringing success. = We=20 don=E2=80=99t know the user behavior for the user experience. We did resear= ch on human=20 response to phone call disconnects 40 years ago =E2=80=93 without research = like that,=20 all this is arbitrary. We do know that people are more likely to complain a= bout=20 content when they pay for it, for example.

= Lars:=20 this is all=20 about=20 QoS of P2P streaming systems, not PPSP protocols.

= Yunfei:=20 May fetch some message in PPSP protocols to show the preference on QoS ensu= red=20 peer selection or current QoS conditions of the peers.

 

Definition Requirements for PP= SP=20 Requirement Spec.

-      &= nbsp;  =20 Values for QoS Limits very subjective=

-      &= nbsp;  =20 Not clear, what has to be standardized in IETF for this=20 purpose.

A proposal was made to define = a=20 framework for QoS p2p live streaming. Authors could be Henning Schulzrinne,= =20 Bhumip Khasnabish and Christian Schmidt.

 

 

Tian Chen present= ed modular=20 design of P2P live streaming

[Not=20 available]

RISE: Robust Internet Streaming Evaluation (ongoi= ng=20 Research Project)

Work=20 on P2P live streaming =E2=80=9Cimprovements=E2=80=9D is outpacing our abili= ty to test and=20 evaluate new algorithms before they are deployed at scale (the topic of int= erest=20 is performance evaluation, not correctness).

This=20 is a modular framework for software implementations that allow P2P overlay = operators to quickly extend P2P live streaming networks (and to back those = extensions out of the overlay if problems are discovered in operation with = real=20 users).

Impacts=20 on PPSP: PPSP would need to provide separate peer lists as Stable and=20 Experimental

 

Yunfei Zhang: What kind of pro= tocol do=20 you use in the test pad? PPLive

Tian Chen: Yes:=20 PPLive

YUnfei Zhang: is it=20 public?

Tian Chen: We will make it ope= n source=20 in future.

 

Yunfei Zhang pres= ented=20 Goalbit introduction and protocol reference to PPSP

[Goalbit-IETF-20100617.ppt]

=E2=80=A2      &= nbsp;  =20 Project goals

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Open Source P2P video streaming solution (the first one, relea= sed=20 under the GNU General Public License)

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Open protocol reference implementation

=E2=80=93      &= nbsp; =20 Includes=20 a peer tracker protocol and peer peer protocol that=E2=80=99s based on=20 BitTorrent.

 

Kent Kangheng Wu = presented=20 P2P layered TCP streaming.

[draft-wo-ppsp-p2p-layered-streaming-00.ppt]=

Lars Eggert: Why are peers on = lower=20 layer not helpful?

Kent Kangheng Wu: It has low b= andwidth;=20 we assume there is no uplink capacity available.

Lars Eggert:  Peer on a higher layer may make d= ecision=20 to provide higher / middle or lower layer=20 information?

Kent Kangheng Wu: Will be answ= ered=20 later.

 

Lichun Li present= ed P2p CDN=20 using RELOAD and PPSP

[P2P=5FCDN=5Fusing=5FPPSP.ppt]

l       = CDN

l       = Improve QoS

l       = Reduce network traffic

l       = P2P

l       = User node assisting content delivery can reduce server=20 load

l       = Using P2P among servers to improve reliability, scalability an= d=20 reduce deployment/maintenance overhead

 

Omer Luzzatti: Tracker notifying the storage: Dis= content=20 now available on the cacher.=20 What is important for t= his kind=20 of decision?

Lichun Li: Depends on policy. = IPTV has=20 high QoS requirements, in relationship to normal TV.=20

Lars Eggert: Introduction of n= ew=20 components Cacher / Storer. We should not consider this In PPSP. A lot of m= ore=20 Metadata would be needed. Current protocol should be extensible to add thes= e=20 messages in the future, but it should not be included in the basic=20 solution.

Omer Luzzatti: New type of equipments, really consider this as something = important.

 
zhangyunfei
2010-06-28
--=====003_Dragon605547614681_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Jun 30 22:52:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4603A67CF for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.859, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FFpeLVHOJjjs for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta.chinamobile.com (cmccmta.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C163A6812 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LENOVO-917FFE55 ([10.2.2.189]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.5FP1) with SMTP id 2010070113503926-9603 ; Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:50:39 +0800 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:51:09 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <201007011351092189530@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-07-01 13:50:39, Serialize by Router on cmccmta/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.5FP1 | April 14, 2006) at 2010-07-01 13:52:27, Serialize complete at 2010-07-01 13:52:27 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon738151278648_=====" Subject: [ppsp] ppsp workshop materials X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 05:52:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon738151278648_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Hi all, The PPSP workshop materilas are avaialable at http://labs.chinamobile.com/focus/PPSP. You can find slides and pictures there. If you don't understand Chinese, just scroll to find the PPT topic where the titles of the slides are marked in English. Hope these slides are useful for your better understanding of PPSP progress.See you in Maastricht. BR Yunfei zhangyunfei 2010-07-01 --=====003_Dragon738151278648_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Hi all,
   The PPSP workshop materilas are avaialable at http://labs.chinamobile.com/focus/PPSP. You can find slides and pictures there.
   If you don't understand Chinese, just scroll to find the PPT topic where the titles of the slides are marked in English.
    Hope these slides are useful for your better understanding of PPSP progress.See you in Maastricht.
 
BR
Yunfei 
 
zhangyunfei
2010-07-01
 --=====003_Dragon738151278648_=====--