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(NSN - DE/" , "Martin Stiemerling" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201109011508590279274@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-01 15:09:46, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-01 15:09:48 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon568772252161_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18358.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--39.156-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--39.156-7.0-31-10;No--39.156-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , 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Hi Christian and=20 Martin,
   Thanks for = the=20 comments. From my point of view, the general descrption of the securit= y=20 threat and points to possible solutions is important for readers to=20 understand the whole picture. So it would be great if the=20 draft can add what Martin proposed based on our previous=20 version. How do y= ou think=20 about this, Martin?
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei=
2011-09-01
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1.=20 (NSN - DE/Munich)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4= =A3=BA=20 2011-08-29 20:03:05
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei;=20 Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC=20 comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03
 

Hi=20 Martin, Yunfei,

 

In=20 PPSP overview we have just a hint to the problem statement=20 ID.:

In=20 PPSP requirements we have just a summary of security related=20 requirements.

But=20 I did not found an ID describing security threats / problems due to the usa= ge of=20 p2p technology for streaming.

I=20 think we need such a general description and the problem statement ID seems= to=20 be the best place for it.

 

The=20 actual version covers security problem description and points towards possi= ble=20 solutions (it is not a solution description).

The=20 responsibility for proper method selection should be done in the related=20 protocol descriptions (tracker / peer).

 

What=20 do you think about this proposal?

 

Best=20 Regards

Christian

 

 

 

 

6. Secur= ity=20 Considerations

 

 &n= bsp; PPSP=20 will not attempt to provide a solution on security and=20 copyright

 &n= bsp;=20 issues like malicious content distribution, content pollution and=20 DRM

 &n= bsp; for=20 a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security=20 involves

 &n= bsp; the=20 security problems related to PPSP protocols. The protocol=

 &n= bsp;=20 documents will contain a complete description on the=20 security/privacy

 &n= bsp;=20 issues relevant to any usage of PPSP.

 

6.1. Tra= cker=20 Protocol

 

 &n= bsp;=20 Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the trackers=20 by

 &n= bsp;=20 sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol.=20 Distributed

 &n= bsp;=20 trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For protection=20 against

 &n= bsp;=20 denial of service attacks, standard security methods can be=20 used.

 

 &n= bsp;=20 Malicious peers may report fake information on behalf of other=20 peers.

 &n= bsp; This=20 can be avoided with peer authentication.

 

 &n= bsp;=20 Malicious peers may report fake information about available=20 content.

 &n= bsp; For=20 this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to the=20 tracker.

 

 &n= bsp;=20 Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, can be=20 very

 &n= bsp;=20 harmful.

 

 &n= bsp; The=20 malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the regular=20 tracker

 &n= bsp; (man=20 in the middle attack). To avoid this tracker=20 authentication

 &n= bsp;=20 could be used.

 

 &n= bsp; The=20 malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake=20 peer-list.

 &n= bsp;=20 Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the fake=20 peer-list.

 

6.2. Pee= r=20 Protocol

 

 &n= bsp;=20 Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction,=20 malicious

 &n= bsp;=20 peers may also create fake information on chunk availability=20 and

 &n= bsp;=20 exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the=20 data

 &n= bsp;=20 integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting=20 the

 &n= bsp;=20 attack.

 

6.3.=20 Solution for Security Threats / Problems.

       =20 The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker=20 protocol, will

        Choose=20 and document adequate methods to solve this security issues in a proper=20 way.

 

 

 

 

 

From:<= /B>=20 ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ex= t=20 zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM
To: = Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC commen= ts=20 draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi=20 Martin,

  =20 Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sure your meaning: Do you mea= n=20 we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP secuirty threats= and=20 possible solutions, instead of having a detailed description on the peer an= d=20 tracker protocol security issues, right?

   =20

BR

Yunfei

 

=

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin=20 Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2011-08-22 20:41:53

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei= ;=20 ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3= =BA=20

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3= =BA RE: [ppsp] = WGLC=20 comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

=

Hi=20 Yunfei,

 

Here=20 is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly short but shoul= d=20 suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I have included the=20 =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the scope; this is in= cluded in the=20 current text. However, it will be necessary to document what the threat to = the=20 content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or exchange chunks wit= h=20 bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, e= tc).=20

 

Here=20 you go:

 

6.=20 Security Considerations

 

This=20 memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protoc= ols=20 without specifying the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to= =20 other memos under development in the PPSP working group.<= /P>

 

The=20 PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker proto= col,=20 will document the expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each = protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combining= both=20 protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users, protec= tion=20 of the content distribution, but not protection of the content by Digital R= ights=20 Management (DRM).

 

 =20 Martin

 

From:<= /B> zhangyunfei = [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2= 011=20 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: = Re:=20 [ppsp] WGLC comments=20 draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi=20 Martin,

Thanks=20 for the careful review. Please see inline for the=20 reply.

BR

Yunfei

 

=

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin=20 Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA=20 2011-08-15 21:06:14

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA=20 ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3= =BA=20

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3= =BA [ppsp] WGLC= =20 comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

=

[Writing &nb= sp;not=20  as  WG  chair,  but  as  individual=20  contributor]

 

Dear=20  all,

 

I  have= =20  reviewed  the  draft  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statemen= t-03=20  and  did  mainly  find  editorial  issues.=20  

 

Non-Editoria= ls:

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "    With  PPSP,= =20  P2P  cache  can  detect  P2P  streaming=20  applications  much    easier  without  needi= ng=20  to  update  its  library.";  It  might  = ;not=20  be  completely    obvious  to  an  aver= age=20  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P  protocol =  would  make  things  easier  here.  How=20  about  adding  at  the  end  of  this=20  sentence:  ",  as  there  is  only  a=20  single  protocol  to  be  detected  and &nbs= p;not=20  a  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietar= y=20  P2P  protocols".  

 =20

[Yunfei]Good=20 proposal!

-  Sect= ion=20  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st  sentence.  I=20  cannot  see  the  relationship  between  the= =20  section's  intended  scope  and  DONA  or=20  any  other  content  centric  networking.=20  

[Yunfei]=20 Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream content(including u= sing=20 P2P)will account a lot in future network is a trend. But maybe we can repla= ce=20 the trend by actual figures(e.g, in section1, cisco figures)to avoid the=20 misleading sentence.

-  Sect= ion=20  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  lost  me  w= ith=20  the  everything  after  the  first  sentence= =20  of  this  paragraph.  I  don't  understand=20  what  it  is  saying  or  what  it=20  should  be  saying.  

[Yunfei]=20 The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the case by case= =20 adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this=20 part.

-  Sect= ion=20  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The  first  sentence =  about  "mobility  and  wireless  are  becomi= ng=20  increasingly  dominate  "  is  basically=20  reflecting  the  current  situation,  but  w= hat=20  is  the  relationship  to  the  future=20  Internet  activities  mentioned  there?  The=20  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  already=20  sort  of  dominant  by=20  today.

[Yunfei]=20 Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, replace "trend" by=20 "fact".

-  Sect= ion=20  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know  what  t= his=20  paragraph  is  aiming  at,  i.e.,  reusing=20  the  same  library  and  potentially  other =  optimizations.  But  it  would  be  better=20  to  rephrase  the  paragraph.  E.g.,  "PPSP =  can  help  to  reduce  the  resource=20  consumption  on  resource  constraint  devices,=20  such  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,  by= =20  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and=20  ..."

[Yunfei]=20 Fine for the change.

 

-  Secu= rity=20  section:  

I'm  no= t=20  sure  that  the  current  security  section =  is  exactly  what  we  need  for  the=20  problem  statement.  It  is  on  one  h= and=20  detailed  on  the  threat  description  (e.g= .,=20  "peers  may  report  fake  information  abou= t=20  available  content"),  but  on  the  other=20  side  lacks  the  description  of=20  countermeasures  to  those  threats.=20  

I  woul= d=20  propose  to  rewrite  the  security  section= =20  to  cover  a  broader  focus  on=20  highlighting  certain  threats,  but  letting=20  the  fix  to  those  to  the  particula= r=20  protocol  specifications,  i.e.,  the  peer=20  protocol  and  the  tracker=20  protocol.

 

I  can =  provide  some  initial  text,  if  there &nb= sp;is=20  an  agreement  to  replace  the  security=20  section.  

[Yunfei]=20 Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on broadening the=20 section. And would ask Christian for more=20 comments.

 

Editorials=20  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve=20  readability):

-  Gene= ral:=20  There  are  many  places  where  the  d= ots=20  are  misplaced,  e.g.,  in

 -=20  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  "  paradigm=20  [Survey].The".  This  should  read  "paradigm=20  [Survey].  The"  (space  between  dot  and=20  The)

-  Whic= h=20  Internet  draft  template  is  being  used=20  for  this  draft?  The  new  templates  = ;have=20  the  "Abstract"    before  the  part  o= n=20  "  Status  of  this  Memo"  and  "=20  Copyright  Notice".  

-  Sect= ion=20  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma  missing,  replac= e=20  "like  CNN  [CNN]  PPstream"  with  "like=20  CNN  [CNN],  PPstream"

-  Sect= ion=20  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "Client-Server"=20  with  "client-server".  The  spelling  of  t= his=20  is  not  consistent  in  the=20  draft.

-  Sect= ion=20  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  "Almost  all=20  these  systems"  with  "  Almost  all  = of=20  these  systems".

-  Sect= ion=20  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  "P2P  streamin= g,=20  the  open  protocols  will  dynamically  red= uce=20    "  with  "P2P  streaming,  open  prot= ocols=20  may  reduce  "

-  Sect= ion=20  2,  paragraph  starting  with  "PPSP",  repl= ace=20  "The  abbreviation  of  P2P  streaming=20  protocols"  with  "The  abbreviation  of=20  Peer-to-Peer  Streaming  Protocols"

-  Sect= ion=20  2,  paragraph  starting  with  "Tracker",=20  replace  "list  of  peers  storing  chunks=20  for  a  specific  channel  or  streaming=20  file"  with  "list  of  peers  which=20  participate  in  a  specific  video  channel= =20  or  in  the  distribution  of  a  strea= ming=20  file".  

-  Sect= ion=20  2,  paragraph  starting  with  "Tracker",=20  replace  "from  peers  for  peer  lists"=20  with  "from  peers  with  a  list  of=20  candidate  peers".

-  Sect= ion=20  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "The  problems= =20  brought  by  proprietary"  with  "The  probl= ems=20  imposed  by  proprietary"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  title  of  this  section,  replace=20  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in  deploying  P2P =  caches"  with  "Difficulties  for  ISPs  in =  deploying  P2P  caches"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "P2P  =20  cache  is  used  to  reduce  the"  with= =20  "P2P  caches  are  used  to  reduce  th= e"=20  or  "P2P      caching  is  used  t= o=20  reduce  the"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "With  PPSP,= =20  P2P  cache  can  detect"  with  "With  = PPSP,=20  a  P2P  cache  can=20  detect"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  last  sentence, =  there  are  two  commas  between  "tracker/p= eer=20  protocol"  and  "which  is=20  easier..."

-  Sect= ion=20  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "Similar  to= =20  the  cache  case,  this"  with  "Similar &nb= sp;to=20  the  caching  case  in  Section  3.1,=20  this"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last  sentence,  the =  dot  at  the  end  is  missing.=20  

-  Sect= ion=20  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10,  replace=20  "trackers  and  peers  need  more  informati= on"=20  with  "trackers  and  peers  may  need  = ;more=20  information"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10,  there &nbs= p;is=20  terminology  collision,  as  serving  gateway &nb= sp;is=20  translated  to  GGSN.  A  change  of  a= =20  SGSN  will  not  be  noticed  by  the=20  terminal.  Moving  to  a  new  GGSN  mi= ght=20  be.  However,  moving  to  a  new  GGSN= =20  might  be  experience  like  any  other=20  event  where  the  IP  address  changes.=20  

-  Sect= ion=20  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "In  other=20  word"  with  "In  other=20  words"

-  Sect= ion=20  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "multiple=20  programs  in  one  resource  constraint"  wi= th=20  "multiple  programs  in  a  resource=20  constraint"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace  full  1st=20  paragraph  with

"The=20  objective  of  the  PPSP  working  group &nb= sp;is=20  to  design  a  unified  peer-  to-peer=20  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to  address  th= e=20  problems  discussed  in  the  preceding=20  sections."

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace  "and  then=20  retrieve  for  wanted  streaming"  with  "an= d=20  then  retrieve  the  wanted=20  streaming"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  "  topology=20  e.g.,  a  tree."  With  "  topology,  e= .g.,=20  a  tree."

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  "(maybe  with =  recommended  order)"  with  "(potentially  in &nb= sp;a=20  recommended  order)"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  "Few  practica= l=20  systems"  with  "Few  commercially=20  deployed"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is  "unfounded=20  data"?

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this  paragraph=20  to  page  12  before  paragraph  starting=20  with  "In  detail,"

-  Sect= ion=20  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12:  I'm  n= ot=20  sure  that  we  still  need  this=20  paragraph.  Can  we  remove=20  it?

-  Sect= ion=20  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is  a  left= over:=20  "   <Text  for  this  section=20 >".

-  Sect= ion=20  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "Also  it=20  can  also  talk"  with  "It  can  also =  communicate"

-  Sect= ion=20  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "  With=20  PPSP  Peers  can  identify  the  types  = ;of=20  access  networks,  their  load/congestion=20  information"  with  "  With  PPSP,  peers=20  may  be  able  to  identify  the  type =  of  access  networks,  average  load".  Do=20  not  include  congestion  information,  as  = this=20  information  is  anyhow  too  volatile  to=20  be  tracked  by  some  entity  of  the =  peer  network,  other  than  the  peers=20  which  are  anyhow  directly  communicating  = ;with=20  each  other.

-  Sect= ion=20  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  "be  selecte= d,=20  which  will  lead  to"  with  "be  sele= cted,=20  which  may  lead  to"

-  Sect= ion=20  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "section3"  = with=20  "Section  3"

-  Sect= ion=20  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  "nodes  in=20  the  network"  with  "nodes  at  the=20  network"

-  Refe= rence=20  section:  This  section  does  not  follow=20  the  style  of  references  as  used  i= n=20  the  RFC  series  and  needs  to  be=20  updated.

 

[Yunfei]I'll=20 update these editorial issues in new version draft.

 

Kind=20  regards

 

 =20  Martin

 

martin.stiem= erling@neclab.eu

 

NEC=20  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research=20  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registere= d=20  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,=20  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  Eng= land=20  2832014  

 

 

=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F

ppsp  m= ailing=20  list

ppsp@ietf.or= g

https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--=====003_Dragon568772252161_=====-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Tue Sep 6 08:05:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA3A21F8B63 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:05:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.082, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BSzgBd47QRHj for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B4A21F8B65 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE63280002FE; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:06:55 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjbkYHnEPIHg; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:06:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B3192800050A; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:06:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:06:44 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: zhangyunfei , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AcxbL2ozl1KnEkDJT823qEGZydMJlwAuqUCxATZ/SiAAHjxx3ALaWC/w Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:06:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.99.202] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF8C41FDAPHNISofficehd_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 15:05:15 -0000 --_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF8C41FDAPHNISofficehd_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBZdW5mZWksDQoNClNvcnJ5IGZvciB0YWtpbmcgc28gbG9uZyB0byBjb21lIGJhY2sgdG8g 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Dear Yunfei,

 <= /p>

Sorry for taking so long = to come back to this.

 <= /p>

I would go for a very hig= h-level description, as proposed. The detailed threat description should go= in the particular protocol definitions, as they anyway need to name what the actual threats are and how they are mitigate by the = mechanics of the protocol.

 <= /p>

  Martin<= /span>

 <= /p>

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobil= e.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statem= ent-03

 =

Hi Martin,

   Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sur= e your meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a d= etailed description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, right= ?

   

BR<= o:p>

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-22 20:41:53=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Yunfei, <= /span>

&n= bsp;

Here is the text proposal= for the security section. It is fairly short but should suffice the consid= erations for the problem statement. I have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the scope; this is i= ncluded in the current text. However, it will be necessary to document what= the threat to the content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or = exchange chunks with bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc). <= /ns0:p>

&n= bsp;

Here you go:

&n= bsp;

6. Security Consideration= s

&n= bsp;

This memo discusses the p= roblem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protocols without specifyi= ng the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP working group.<= /ns0:p>

&n= bsp;

The PPSP protocol specifi= cations, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will document th= e expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combinin= g both protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users,= protection of the content distribution, but not protection of the content = by Digital Rights Management (DRM).

&n= bsp;

  Martin

&n= bsp;

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei= @chinamobile.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

&nbs= p;

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply= .

BR

Yunfei

 <= /o:p>

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp= -problem-statement-03

 <= /o:p>

[Writing  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as &nbs= p;individual  contributor]

 

Dear  all,

 

I  have  reviewed  the  draft  draft-ietf-ppsp-p= roblem-statement-03  and  did  mainly  find  edito= rial  issues.  

 

Non-Editorials:

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "  =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect  = P2P  streaming  applications  much    easier  = ;without  needing  to  update  its  library.";  It  might=  not  be  completely    obvious  to  an=  average  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier  here.=  How  about  adding  at  the  end  of &= nbsp;this  sentence:  ",  as  there  is  = ;only  a  single  protocol  to  be  detected  and  not  = a  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary &nbs= p;P2P  protocols".  

 

[Yunfei]Good proposal!

-  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st  sen= tence.  I  cannot  see  the  relationship  be= tween  the  section's  intended  scope  and  = DONA  or  any  other  content  centric  networkin= g.  

[Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stre= am content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e= .g, in section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence.

-  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  los= t  me  with  the  everything  after  the &nbs= p;first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I  d= on't  understand  what  it  is  saying  or  = what  it  should  be  saying.  

[Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexi= ty of the case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this part.

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The  fir= st  sentence  about  "mobility  and  wireless=  are  becoming  increasingly  dominate  " &n= bsp;is  basically  reflecting  the  current  situation, =  but  what  is  the  relationship  to  t= he  future  Internet  activities  mentioned  there= ?  The  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  = ;already  sort  of  dominant  by  today.

[Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, rep= lace "trend" by "fact".

-  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at,  = ;i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and  pot= entially  other  optimizations.  But  it  would  be &= nbsp;better  to  rephrase  the  paragraph.  E.g., =  "PPSP  can  help  to  reduce  the  = ;resource  consumption  on  resource  constraint  = devices,  such  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,=  by  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and  ..."

[Yunfei] Fine for the change.=

 

-  Security  section:  

I'm  not  sure  that  the  current  securit= y  section  is  exactly  what  we  need  = ;for  the  problem  statement.  It  is  on &n= bsp;one  hand  detailed  on  the  threat  description  (e.= g.,  "peers  may  report  fake  information &= nbsp;about  available  content"),  but  on  t= he  other  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats.  

I  would  propose  to  rewrite  the  securi= ty  section  to  cover  a  broader  focus &nb= sp;on  highlighting  certain  threats,  but  letti= ng  the  fix  to  those  to  the  particul= ar  protocol  specifications,  i.e.,  the  peer &n= bsp;protocol  and  the  tracker  protocol.

 

I  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if &= nbsp;there  is  an  agreement  to  replace  t= he  security  section.  

[Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on= broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments.

 

Editorials  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve  r= eadability):

-  General:  There  are  many  places  wher= e  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g.,  in

 -  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " &n= bsp;paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should  read &= nbsp;"paradigm  [Survey].  The"  (space  betw= een  dot  and  The)

-  Which  Internet  draft  template  is  be= ing  used  for  this  draft?  The  new  = templates  have  the  "Abstract"    befo= re  the  part  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" &n= bsp;and  "  Copyright  Notice".  

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma  mis= sing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN]  PPstream&q= uot;  with  "like  CNN  [CNN],  PPstream"= ;

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Client-Server"  with  "client-server".  = The  spelling  of  this  is  not  consistent =  in  the  draft.

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Almost  all  these  systems"  with  &quo= t;  Almost  all  of  these  systems".<= ns0:p>

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols  will &= nbsp;dynamically  reduce    "  with  "P2= P  streaming,  open  protocols  may  reduce  "

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation  of=  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with  "The=  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer  Streaming  Protocols"

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "list  of  peers &n= bsp;storing  chunks  for  a  specific  channel &nb= sp;or  streaming  file"  with  "list  of  peers  wh= ich  participate  in  a  specific  video  cha= nnel  or  in  the  distribution  of  a  = streaming  file".  

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers  for &= nbsp;peer  lists"  with  "from  peers  w= ith  a  list  of  candidate  peers".

-  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;The  problems  brought  by  proprietary" &nbs= p;with  "The  problems  imposed  by  propriet= ary"

-  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section,=  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in  = deploying  P2P  caches"  with  "Difficulties =  for  ISPs  in  deploying  P2P  caches"

-  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"P2P    cache  is  used  to  reduce &nb= sp;the"  with  "P2P  caches  are  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"  or  "P2P      caching  is  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect" =  with  "With  PPSP,  a  P2P  cache  = ;can  detect"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  las= t  sentence,  there  are  two  commas  betwee= n  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and  "which=  is  easier..."

-  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Similar  to  the  cache  case,  this" =  with  "Similar  to  the  caching  case =  in  Section  3.1,  this"

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last  se= ntence,  the  dot  at  the  end  is  mis= sing.  

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need  = ;more  information"  with  "trackers  and &nb= sp;peers  may  need  more  information"

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  there  is  terminology  collision,  as  se= rving  gateway  is  translated  to  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will  not  be &nb= sp;noticed  by  the  terminal.  Moving  to  a=  new  GGSN  might  be.  However,  moving &nb= sp;to  a  new  GGSN  might  be  experience &n= bsp;like  any  other  event  where  the  IP &= nbsp;address  changes.  

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"In  other  word"  with  "In  othe= r  words"

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"multiple  programs  in  one  resource  cons= traint"  with  "multiple  programs  in  = a  resource  constraint"

-  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace  f= ull  1st  paragraph  with

"The  objective  of  the  PPSP  working &nb= sp;group  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- &= nbsp;to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to  add= ress  the  problems  discussed  in  the  precedin= g  sections."

-  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;and  then  retrieve  for  wanted  streaming&q= uot;  with  "and  then  retrieve  the  w= anted  streaming"

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;  topology  e.g.,  a  tree."  With  = ;"  topology,  e.g.,  a  tree."=

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;(maybe  with  recommended  order)"  with &nbs= p;"(potentially  in  a  recommended  order)"<= /span>

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;Few  practical  systems"  with  "Few &nb= sp;commercially  deployed"

-  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is &= nbsp;"unfounded  data"?

-  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this=  paragraph  to  page  12  before  paragraph =  starting  with  "In  detail,"<= /ns0:p>

-  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12:=  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still  need =  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove  it?

-  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for  this &= nbsp;section >".

-  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Also  it  can  also  talk"  with  = ;"It  can  also  communicate"

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify  th= e  types  of  access  networks,  their  load/= congestion  information"  with  "  With  PPSP, &nb= sp;peers  may  be  able  to  identify  the &n= bsp;type  of  access  networks,  average  load&quo= t;.  Do  not  include  congestion  information, &n= bsp;as  this  information  is  anyhow  too  v= olatile  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity &n= bsp;of  the  peer  network,  other  than  the  = ;peers  which  are  anyhow  directly  communicatin= g  with  each  other.

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"be  selected,  which  will  lead  to" =  with  "be  selected,  which  may  lead =  to"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"section3"  with  "Section  3"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"nodes  in  the  network"  with  "= nodes  at  the  network"

-  Reference  section:  This  section  does &nbs= p;not  follow  the  style  of  references  as=  used  in  the  RFC  series  and  needs=  to  be  updated.

 

[Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draf= t.

 

Kind  regards

 

   Martin

 

 

NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registere= d  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  En= gland  2832014  

 

 

_______________________________________________

ppsp  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.org<= o:p>

--_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF8C41FDAPHNISofficehd_-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Tue Sep 6 08:10:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA4721F8B3A for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:10:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.982, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1VI92CxZLh8D for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E1C21F8B6D for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A27280004D4; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:11:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SjTe-hgpF2b6; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:11:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC728280002FE; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:11:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:10:46 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" , ext zhangyunfei , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AQHMZkOiDMy/BPlOgkqQRsEANytWQZVAgLnQ Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:10:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF8C456DAPHNISofficehd_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 15:10:12 -0000 --_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF8C456DAPHNISofficehd_ Content-Type: 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Hi Christian,<= /span>

 <= /p>

From: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) [m= ailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:03 PM
To: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 =

Hi Martin, Yunfei,

 <= /p>

In PPSP overview we have = just a hint to the problem statement ID.:

In PPSP requirements we h= ave just a summary of security related requirements.

But I did not found an ID= describing security threats / problems due to the usage of p2p technology = for streaming.

I think we need such a ge= neral description and the problem statement ID seems to be the best place f= or it.

 <= /p>

[MS] I do not see the nee= d for the security threats and problems of p2p streaming technology in gene= ral, as different systems may face different threats and even more may take approaches to mitigate them. It is IMHO sufficient to n= ame the high-level threats and to point to the protocol drafts for the deta= ils.

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

  Martin<= /span>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

The actual version covers= security problem description and points towards possible solutions (it is = not a solution description).

The responsibility for pr= oper method selection should be done in the related protocol descriptions (= tracker / peer).

 <= /p>

What do you think about t= his proposal?

 <= /p>

Best Regards

Christian

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

6. Security Considerations

 

   PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and= copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution, content polluti= on and DRM

   for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security i= nvolves

   the security problems related to PPSP protocols. The protoc= ol

   documents will contain a complete description on the securi= ty/privacy

   issues relevant to any usage of PPSP.

 

6.1. Tracker Protocol

 

   Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the t= rackers by

   sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Dis= tributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For protecti= on against

   denial of service attacks, standard security methods can be= used.

 

   Malicious peers may report fake information on behalf of ot= her peers.

   This can be avoided with peer authentication.

 

   Malicious peers may report fake information about available= content.

   For this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to the tr= acker.

 

   Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, can be v= ery

   harmful.

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the regul= ar tracker

   (man in the middle attack). To avoid this tracker authentic= ation

   could be used.

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake = peer-list.

   Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the fake = peer-list.

 

6.2. Peer Protocol

 

   Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction, ma= licious

   peers may also create fake information on chunk availabilit= y and

   exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the = data

   integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detectin= g the

   attack.

 <= /p>

6.3. Solution for Securit= y Threats / Problems.

    &= nbsp;   The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol= and the tracker protocol, will

    &= nbsp;   Choose and document adequate methods to solve this s= ecurity issues in a proper way.

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 =

Hi Martin,

   Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sur= e your meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a d= etailed description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, right= ?

   

BR<= o:p>

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-22 20:41:53=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Yunfei,

 <= /p>

Here is the text proposal= for the security section. It is fairly short but should suffice the consid= erations for the problem statement. I have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the scope; this is i= ncluded in the current text. However, it will be necessary to document what= the threat to the content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or = exchange chunks with bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc).

 <= /p>

Here you go:<= /o:p>

 <= /p>

6. Security Consideration= s

 <= /p>

This memo discusses the p= roblem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protocols without specifyi= ng the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP working group.

 <= /p>

The PPSP protocol specifi= cations, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will document th= e expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combinin= g both protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users,= protection of the content distribution, but not protection of the content = by Digital Rights Management (DRM).

 <= /p>

  Martin=

 <= /p>

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobil= e.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 =

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply= .

BR

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling=

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp= -problem-statement-03

 

[Writing  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as &nbs= p;individual  contributor]

 

Dear  all,

 

I  have  reviewed  the  draft  draft-ietf-ppsp-p= roblem-statement-03  and  did  mainly  find  edito= rial  issues.  

 

Non-Editorials:

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "  =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect  = P2P  streaming  applications  much    easier  = ;without  needing  to  update  its  library.";  It  might=  not  be  completely    obvious  to  an=  average  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier  here.=  How  about  adding  at  the  end  of &= nbsp;this  sentence:  ",  as  there  is  = ;only  a  single  protocol  to  be  detected  and  not  = a  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary &nbs= p;P2P  protocols".  

 

[Yunfei]Good proposal!

-  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st  sen= tence.  I  cannot  see  the  relationship  be= tween  the  section's  intended  scope  and  = DONA  or  any  other  content  centric  networkin= g.  

[Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stre= am content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e= .g, in section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence.

-  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  los= t  me  with  the  everything  after  the &nbs= p;first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I  d= on't  understand  what  it  is  saying  or  = what  it  should  be  saying.  <= /p>

[Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexi= ty of the case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this part.

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The  fir= st  sentence  about  "mobility  and  wireless=  are  becoming  increasingly  dominate  " &n= bsp;is  basically  reflecting  the  current  situation, =  but  what  is  the  relationship  to  t= he  future  Internet  activities  mentioned  there= ?  The  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  = ;already  sort  of  dominant  by  today.

[Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, rep= lace "trend" by "fact".

-  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at,  = ;i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and  pot= entially  other  optimizations.  But  it  would  be &= nbsp;better  to  rephrase  the  paragraph.  E.g., =  "PPSP  can  help  to  reduce  the  = ;resource  consumption  on  resource  constraint  = devices,  such  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,=  by  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and  ..."

[Yunfei] Fine for the change.

 

-  Security  section:  

I'm  not  sure  that  the  current  securit= y  section  is  exactly  what  we  need  = ;for  the  problem  statement.  It  is  on &n= bsp;one  hand  detailed  on  the  threat  description  (e.= g.,  "peers  may  report  fake  information &= nbsp;about  available  content"),  but  on  t= he  other  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats.  

I  would  propose  to  rewrite  the  securi= ty  section  to  cover  a  broader  focus &nb= sp;on  highlighting  certain  threats,  but  letti= ng  the  fix  to  those  to  the  particul= ar  protocol  specifications,  i.e.,  the  peer &n= bsp;protocol  and  the  tracker  protocol.<= /o:p>

 

I  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if &= nbsp;there  is  an  agreement  to  replace  t= he  security  section.  

[Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on= broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments.

 

Editorials  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve  r= eadability):

-  General:  There  are  many  places  wher= e  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g.,  in

 -  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " &n= bsp;paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should  read &= nbsp;"paradigm  [Survey].  The"  (space  betw= een  dot  and  The)

-  Which  Internet  draft  template  is  be= ing  used  for  this  draft?  The  new  = templates  have  the  "Abstract"    befo= re  the  part  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" &n= bsp;and  "  Copyright  Notice".  =

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma  mis= sing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN]  PPstream&q= uot;  with  "like  CNN  [CNN],  PPstream"= ;

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Client-Server"  with  "client-server".  = The  spelling  of  this  is  not  consistent =  in  the  draft.

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Almost  all  these  systems"  with  &quo= t;  Almost  all  of  these  systems".<= o:p>

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols  will &= nbsp;dynamically  reduce    "  with  "P2= P  streaming,  open  protocols  may  reduce  "=

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation  of=  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with  "The=  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer  Streaming  Protocols"

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "list  of  peers &n= bsp;storing  chunks  for  a  specific  channel &nb= sp;or  streaming  file"  with  "list  of  peers  wh= ich  participate  in  a  specific  video  cha= nnel  or  in  the  distribution  of  a  = streaming  file".  

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers  for &= nbsp;peer  lists"  with  "from  peers  w= ith  a  list  of  candidate  peers".

-  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;The  problems  brought  by  proprietary" &nbs= p;with  "The  problems  imposed  by  propriet= ary"

-  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section,=  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in  = deploying  P2P  caches"  with  "Difficulties =  for  ISPs  in  deploying  P2P  caches"

-  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"P2P    cache  is  used  to  reduce &nb= sp;the"  with  "P2P  caches  are  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"  or  "P2P      caching  is  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect" =  with  "With  PPSP,  a  P2P  cache  = ;can  detect"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  las= t  sentence,  there  are  two  commas  betwee= n  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and  "which=  is  easier..."

-  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Similar  to  the  cache  case,  this" =  with  "Similar  to  the  caching  case =  in  Section  3.1,  this"

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last  se= ntence,  the  dot  at  the  end  is  mis= sing.  

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need  = ;more  information"  with  "trackers  and &nb= sp;peers  may  need  more  information"

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  there  is  terminology  collision,  as  se= rving  gateway  is  translated  to  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will  not  be &nb= sp;noticed  by  the  terminal.  Moving  to  a=  new  GGSN  might  be.  However,  moving &nb= sp;to  a  new  GGSN  might  be  experience &n= bsp;like  any  other  event  where  the  IP &= nbsp;address  changes.  

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"In  other  word"  with  "In  othe= r  words"

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"multiple  programs  in  one  resource  cons= traint"  with  "multiple  programs  in  = a  resource  constraint"

-  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace  f= ull  1st  paragraph  with

"The  objective  of  the  PPSP  working &nb= sp;group  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- &= nbsp;to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to  add= ress  the  problems  discussed  in  the  precedin= g  sections."

-  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;and  then  retrieve  for  wanted  streaming&q= uot;  with  "and  then  retrieve  the  w= anted  streaming"

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;  topology  e.g.,  a  tree."  With  = ;"  topology,  e.g.,  a  tree."

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;(maybe  with  recommended  order)"  with &nbs= p;"(potentially  in  a  recommended  order)"<= /span>

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;Few  practical  systems"  with  "Few &nb= sp;commercially  deployed"

-  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is &= nbsp;"unfounded  data"?

-  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this=  paragraph  to  page  12  before  paragraph =  starting  with  "In  detail,"

-  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12:=  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still  need =  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove  it?

-  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for  this &= nbsp;section >".

-  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Also  it  can  also  talk"  with  = ;"It  can  also  communicate"

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify  th= e  types  of  access  networks,  their  load/= congestion  information"  with  "  With  PPSP, &nb= sp;peers  may  be  able  to  identify  the &n= bsp;type  of  access  networks,  average  load&quo= t;.  Do  not  include  congestion  information, &n= bsp;as  this  information  is  anyhow  too  v= olatile  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity &n= bsp;of  the  peer  network,  other  than  the  = ;peers  which  are  anyhow  directly  communicatin= g  with  each  other.

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"be  selected,  which  will  lead  to" =  with  "be  selected,  which  may  lead =  to"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"section3"  with  "Section  3"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"nodes  in  the  network"  with  "= nodes  at  the  network"

-  Reference  section:  This  section  does &nbs= p;not  follow  the  style  of  references  as=  used  in  the  RFC  series  and  needs=  to  be  updated.

 

[Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draf= t.

 

Kind  regards

 

   Martin

 

martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu

 

NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registere= d  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  En= gland  2832014  

 

 

_______________________________________________

ppsp  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF8C456DAPHNISofficehd_-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Tue Sep 6 08:10:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B3921F8B7B for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:10:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.384 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.384 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.889, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W0tlLhQaobca for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F0F21F8B82 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2708280004D4; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:12:00 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S6zyPa4kI0kv; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:12:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F86280002FE; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:11:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:11:45 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: zhangyunfei , "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AQHMZkOiDMy/BPlOgkqQRsEANytWQZU4H83zgAhh1RA= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:11:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> <201109011508590279274@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201109011508590279274@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF8C461DAPHNISofficehd_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 15:10:18 -0000 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Short answer: Do you refe= r to add my text proposal to the existing text or to replace the existing t= ext?

 <= /p>

I would replace it, as so= me threats, but not all,  are outlined, but without a solution, as thi= s draft cannot give a detailed solution.

 <= /p>

  Martin<= /span>

 <= /p>

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobil= e.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 9:09 AM
To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.= org
Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statem= ent-03

 =

Hi Christian and Martin,

   Thanks for the comments. From my point of vi= ew, the general descrption of the security threat and points to possible so= lutions is important for readers to understand the whole picture. So it = would be great if the draft can add what Martin proposed based on= our previous version. How do you think about this, Martin?=

BR

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-09-01

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - D= E/Munich)

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-29 20:03:05=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stieme= rling; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Martin, Yunfei,= <= o:p>

&n= bsp;

In PPSP overview we have = just a hint to the problem statement ID.:<= /p>

In PPSP requirements we h= ave just a summary of security related requirements.<= o:p>

But I did not found an ID= describing security threats / problems due to the usage of p2p technology = for streaming.

I think we need such a ge= neral description and the problem statement ID seems to be the best place f= or it.

&n= bsp;

The actual version covers= security problem description and points towards possible solutions (it is = not a solution description).

The responsibility for pr= oper method selection should be done in the related protocol descriptions (= tracker / peer).

&n= bsp;

What do you think about t= his proposal?

&n= bsp;

Best Regards

Christian

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

6. Security Considerations

 

   PPSP will not attempt to provide a solutio= n on security and copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution= , content pollution and DRM

   for a general P2P streaming system. Instea= d PPSP security involves

   the security problems related to PPSP prot= ocols. The protocol

   documents will contain a complete descript= ion on the security/privacy

   issues relevant to any usage of PPSP.

 

6.1. Tracker Protocol

 

   Malicious peers may issue denial of servic= e attack to the trackers by

   sending large amount of requests with trac= ker protocol. Distributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the prob= lem. For protection against

   denial of service attacks, standard securi= ty methods can be used.

 

   Malicious peers may report fake informatio= n on behalf of other peers.

   This can be avoided with peer authenticati= on.

 

   Malicious peers may report fake informatio= n about available content.

   For this purpose, malicious peers can be r= eported to the tracker.

 

   Malicious tracker, especially distributed = version, can be very

   harmful.

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply ins= tead of the regular tracker

   (man in the middle attack). To avoid this = tracker authentication=

   could be used.<= /ns0:p>

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply the= peers with fake peer-list.

   Peers may find they cannot find desired da= ta with the fake peer-list.

 

6.2. Peer Protocol

 

   Similar to the behavior in the tracker-pee= r interaction, malicious

   peers may also create fake information on = chunk availability and=

   exchange it with other peers. Some techniq= ues to check the data<= /p>

   integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be us= eful for detecting the=

   attack.=

&n= bsp;

6.3. Solution for Securit= y Threats / Problems.

    &= nbsp;   The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol= and the tracker protocol, will

    &= nbsp;   Choose and document adequate methods to solve this s= ecurity issues in a proper way.

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

&nbs= p;

Hi Martin,

   Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sur= e your meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a d= etailed description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, right= ?

   

BR

Yunfei

 <= /o:p>

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-22 20:41:53=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement-03

 <= /o:p>

Hi Yunfei,

 

Here is the text proposal= for the security section. It is fairly short but should suffice the consid= erations for the problem statement. I have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the scope; this is i= ncluded in the current text. However, it will be necessary to document what= the threat to the content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or = exchange chunks with bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc). <= /ns0:p>

 

Here you go:

 

6. Security Consideration= s

 

This memo discusses the p= roblem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protocols without specifyi= ng the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP working group.<= /ns0:p>

 

The PPSP protocol specifi= cations, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will document th= e expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combinin= g both protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users,= protection of the content distribution, but not protection of the content = by Digital Rights Management (DRM).

 

  Martin

 

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei= @chinamobile.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply= .

BR

Yunfei

 <= /o:p>

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp= -problem-statement-03

 <= /o:p>

[Writing  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as &nbs= p;individual  contributor]

 

Dear  all,

 

I  have  reviewed  the  draft  draft-ietf-ppsp-p= roblem-statement-03  and  did  mainly  find  edito= rial  issues.  

 

Non-Editorials:

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "  =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect  = P2P  streaming  applications  much    easier  = ;without  needing  to  update  its  library.";  It  might=  not  be  completely    obvious  to  an=  average  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier  here.=  How  about  adding  at  the  end  of &= nbsp;this  sentence:  ",  as  there  is  = ;only  a  single  protocol  to  be  detected  and  not  = a  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary &nbs= p;P2P  protocols".  

 

[Yunfei]Good proposal!

-  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st  sen= tence.  I  cannot  see  the  relationship  be= tween  the  section's  intended  scope  and  = DONA  or  any  other  content  centric  networkin= g.  

[Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stre= am content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e= .g, in section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence.

-  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  los= t  me  with  the  everything  after  the &nbs= p;first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I  d= on't  understand  what  it  is  saying  or  = what  it  should  be  saying.  

[Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexi= ty of the case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this part.

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The  fir= st  sentence  about  "mobility  and  wireless=  are  becoming  increasingly  dominate  " &n= bsp;is  basically  reflecting  the  current  situation, =  but  what  is  the  relationship  to  t= he  future  Internet  activities  mentioned  there= ?  The  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  = ;already  sort  of  dominant  by  today.

[Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, rep= lace "trend" by "fact".

-  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at,  = ;i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and  pot= entially  other  optimizations.  But  it  would  be &= nbsp;better  to  rephrase  the  paragraph.  E.g., =  "PPSP  can  help  to  reduce  the  = ;resource  consumption  on  resource  constraint  = devices,  such  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,=  by  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and  ..."

[Yunfei] Fine for the change.=

 

-  Security  section:  

I'm  not  sure  that  the  current  securit= y  section  is  exactly  what  we  need  = ;for  the  problem  statement.  It  is  on &n= bsp;one  hand  detailed  on  the  threat  description  (e.= g.,  "peers  may  report  fake  information &= nbsp;about  available  content"),  but  on  t= he  other  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats.  

I  would  propose  to  rewrite  the  securi= ty  section  to  cover  a  broader  focus &nb= sp;on  highlighting  certain  threats,  but  letti= ng  the  fix  to  those  to  the  particul= ar  protocol  specifications,  i.e.,  the  peer &n= bsp;protocol  and  the  tracker  protocol.

 

I  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if &= nbsp;there  is  an  agreement  to  replace  t= he  security  section.  

[Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on= broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments.

 

Editorials  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve  r= eadability):

-  General:  There  are  many  places  wher= e  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g.,  in

 -  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " &n= bsp;paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should  read &= nbsp;"paradigm  [Survey].  The"  (space  betw= een  dot  and  The)

-  Which  Internet  draft  template  is  be= ing  used  for  this  draft?  The  new  = templates  have  the  "Abstract"    befo= re  the  part  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" &n= bsp;and  "  Copyright  Notice".  

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma  mis= sing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN]  PPstream&q= uot;  with  "like  CNN  [CNN],  PPstream"= ;

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Client-Server"  with  "client-server".  = The  spelling  of  this  is  not  consistent =  in  the  draft.

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Almost  all  these  systems"  with  &quo= t;  Almost  all  of  these  systems".<= ns0:p>

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols  will &= nbsp;dynamically  reduce    "  with  "P2= P  streaming,  open  protocols  may  reduce  "

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation  of=  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with  "The=  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer  Streaming  Protocols"

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "list  of  peers &n= bsp;storing  chunks  for  a  specific  channel &nb= sp;or  streaming  file"  with  "list  of  peers  wh= ich  participate  in  a  specific  video  cha= nnel  or  in  the  distribution  of  a  = streaming  file".  

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers  for &= nbsp;peer  lists"  with  "from  peers  w= ith  a  list  of  candidate  peers".

-  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;The  problems  brought  by  proprietary" &nbs= p;with  "The  problems  imposed  by  propriet= ary"

-  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section,=  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in  = deploying  P2P  caches"  with  "Difficulties =  for  ISPs  in  deploying  P2P  caches"

-  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"P2P    cache  is  used  to  reduce &nb= sp;the"  with  "P2P  caches  are  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"  or  "P2P      caching  is  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect" =  with  "With  PPSP,  a  P2P  cache  = ;can  detect"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  las= t  sentence,  there  are  two  commas  betwee= n  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and  "which=  is  easier..."

-  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Similar  to  the  cache  case,  this" =  with  "Similar  to  the  caching  case =  in  Section  3.1,  this"

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last  se= ntence,  the  dot  at  the  end  is  mis= sing.  

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need  = ;more  information"  with  "trackers  and &nb= sp;peers  may  need  more  information"

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  there  is  terminology  collision,  as  se= rving  gateway  is  translated  to  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will  not  be &nb= sp;noticed  by  the  terminal.  Moving  to  a=  new  GGSN  might  be.  However,  moving &nb= sp;to  a  new  GGSN  might  be  experience &n= bsp;like  any  other  event  where  the  IP &= nbsp;address  changes.  

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"In  other  word"  with  "In  othe= r  words"

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"multiple  programs  in  one  resource  cons= traint"  with  "multiple  programs  in  = a  resource  constraint"

-  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace  f= ull  1st  paragraph  with

"The  objective  of  the  PPSP  working &nb= sp;group  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- &= nbsp;to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to  add= ress  the  problems  discussed  in  the  precedin= g  sections."

-  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;and  then  retrieve  for  wanted  streaming&q= uot;  with  "and  then  retrieve  the  w= anted  streaming"

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;  topology  e.g.,  a  tree."  With  = ;"  topology,  e.g.,  a  tree."=

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;(maybe  with  recommended  order)"  with &nbs= p;"(potentially  in  a  recommended  order)"<= /span>

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;Few  practical  systems"  with  "Few &nb= sp;commercially  deployed"

-  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is &= nbsp;"unfounded  data"?

-  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this=  paragraph  to  page  12  before  paragraph =  starting  with  "In  detail,"<= /ns0:p>

-  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12:=  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still  need =  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove  it?

-  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for  this &= nbsp;section >".

-  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Also  it  can  also  talk"  with  = ;"It  can  also  communicate"

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify  th= e  types  of  access  networks,  their  load/= congestion  information"  with  "  With  PPSP, &nb= sp;peers  may  be  able  to  identify  the &n= bsp;type  of  access  networks,  average  load&quo= t;.  Do  not  include  congestion  information, &n= bsp;as  this  information  is  anyhow  too  v= olatile  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity &n= bsp;of  the  peer  network,  other  than  the  = ;peers  which  are  anyhow  directly  communicatin= g  with  each  other.

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"be  selected,  which  will  lead  to" =  with  "be  selected,  which  may  lead =  to"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"section3"  with  "Section  3"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"nodes  in  the  network"  with  "= nodes  at  the  network"

-  Reference  section:  This  section  does &nbs= p;not  follow  the  style  of  references  as=  used  in  the  RFC  series  and  needs=  to  be  updated.

 

[Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draf= t.

 

Kind  regards

 

   Martin

 

 

NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registere= d  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  En= gland  2832014  

 

 

_______________________________________________

ppsp  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.org<= o:p>

--_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF8C461DAPHNISofficehd_-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Tue Sep 6 22:34:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BFA21F8BDC for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:34:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.362, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3EifOw36PKr4 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB7E21F8BB5 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p875aKcb029374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:36:20 +0200 Received: from demuexc023.nsn-intra.net (demuexc023.nsn-intra.net [10.150.128.36]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p875aKp0014206; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:36:20 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc023.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:36:20 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC6D20.122D9030" Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:36:19 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AQHMZkOiDMy/BPlOgkqQRsEANytWQZVAgLnQgADyr/A= References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Martin Stiemerling" , "ext zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2011 05:36:20.0530 (UTC) FILETIME=[12990120:01CC6D20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 05:34:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6D20.122D9030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Martin, =20 What was the message? =20 Br Christian =20 From: ext Martin Stiemerling [mailto:Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu]=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:11 PM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ext zhangyunfei; = ppsp@ietf.org Subject: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Christian, =20 From: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) = [mailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]=20 Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:03 PM To: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Martin, Yunfei, =20 In PPSP overview we have just a hint to the problem statement ID.: In PPSP requirements we have just a summary of security related = requirements. But I did not found an ID describing security threats / problems due to = the usage of p2p technology for streaming. I think we need such a general description and the problem statement ID = seems to be the best place for it. =20 [MS] I do not see the need for the security threats and problems of p2p = streaming technology in general, as different systems may face different = threats and even more may take approaches to mitigate them. It is IMHO = sufficient to name the high-level threats and to point to the protocol = drafts for the details.=20 =20 =20 Martin =20 =20 The actual version covers security problem description and points = towards possible solutions (it is not a solution description). The responsibility for proper method selection should be done in the = related protocol descriptions (tracker / peer). =20 What do you think about this proposal? =20 Best Regards Christian =20 =20 =20 =20 6. Security Considerations =20 PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and copyright issues like malicious content distribution, content pollution and DRM for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security involves the security problems related to PPSP protocols. The protocol documents will contain a complete description on the security/privacy issues relevant to any usage of PPSP. =20 6.1. Tracker Protocol =20 Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Distributed trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For protection against denial of service attacks, standard security methods can be used. =20 Malicious peers may report fake information on behalf of other peers. This can be avoided with peer authentication. =20 Malicious peers may report fake information about available content. For this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to the tracker. =20 Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, can be very harmful. =20 The malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the regular tracker (man in the middle attack). To avoid this tracker authentication could be used. =20 The malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake peer-list. Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the fake peer-list. =20 6.2. Peer Protocol =20 Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction, malicious peers may also create fake information on chunk availability and exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the data integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting the attack. =20 6.3. Solution for Security Threats / Problems. The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and = the tracker protocol, will=20 Choose and document adequate methods to solve this security = issues in a proper way. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Martin, Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sure your meaning: Do = you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP = secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a detailed = description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, right? =20 BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-08-23 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-22 20:41:53 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Yunfei,=20 =20 Here is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly short = but should suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I have = included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the = scope; this is included in the current text. However, it will be = necessary to document what the threat to the content distribution is, = e.g., to not forward chunks or exchange chunks with bogus data; and also = to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc).=20 =20 Here you go: =20 6. Security Considerations =20 This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer = streaming protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol = specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP = working group. =20 The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the = tracker protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will = be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and = mitigations when combining both protocols in an application. This will = include privacy of the users, protection of the content distribution, = but not protection of the content by Digital Rights Management (DRM).=20 =20 Martin =20 From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Martin, Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply. BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-08-16 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 [Writing not as WG chair, but as individual contributor] =20 Dear all, =20 I have reviewed the draft draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 and = did mainly find editorial issues. =20 =20 Non-Editorials: - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, " With PPSP, P2P cache can = detect P2P streaming applications much easier without needing = to update its library."; It might not be completely obvious = to an average reader why a standarizded P2P protocol would = make things easier here. How about adding at the end of this = sentence: ", as there is only a single protocol to be = detected and not a potentially unknown set of proprietary P2P = protocols". =20 =20 [Yunfei]Good proposal! - Section 3.2, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence. I cannot see the = relationship between the section's intended scope and DONA or = any other content centric networking. =20 [Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream = content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a = trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e.g, in = section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence. - Section 3.2, 3rd paragraph, You lost me with the everything = after the first sentence of this paragraph. I don't understand = what it is saying or what it should be saying. =20 [Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the = case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this = part. - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, The first sentence about = "mobility and wireless are becoming increasingly dominate " is = basically reflecting the current situation, but what is the = relationship to the future Internet activities mentioned there? = The mobile and wireless part is already sort of dominant by = today. [Yunfei] Good question. Similar to section 3.1, replace "trend" by = "fact". - Section 3.4, 2nd paragraph: I know what this paragraph is = aiming at, i.e., reusing the same library and potentially other = optimizations. But it would be better to rephrase the = paragraph. E.g., "PPSP can help to reduce the resource = consumption on resource constraint devices, such as STBs or = mobile phones, by reusing a PPSP base library and ..." [Yunfei] Fine for the change. =20 - Security section: =20 I'm not sure that the current security section is exactly what = we need for the problem statement. It is on one hand = detailed on the threat description (e.g., "peers may report = fake information about available content"), but on the other = side lacks the description of countermeasures to those threats. = I would propose to rewrite the security section to cover a = broader focus on highlighting certain threats, but letting the = fix to those to the particular protocol specifications, i.e., = the peer protocol and the tracker protocol. =20 I can provide some initial text, if there is an agreement to = replace the security section. =20 [Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on = broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments. =20 Editorials (mainly suggestions to improve readability): - General: There are many places where the dots are misplaced, = e.g., in - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, " paradigm [Survey].The". This = should read "paradigm [Survey]. The" (space between dot and = The) - Which Internet draft template is being used for this draft? = The new templates have the "Abstract" before the part on " = Status of this Memo" and " Copyright Notice". =20 - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, comma missing, replace "like CNN = [CNN] PPstream" with "like CNN [CNN], PPstream" - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, replace "Client-Server" with = "client-server". The spelling of this is not consistent in the = draft. - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "Almost all these systems" = with " Almost all of these systems". - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "P2P streaming, the open = protocols will dynamically reduce " with "P2P streaming, open = protocols may reduce " - Section 2, paragraph starting with "PPSP", replace "The = abbreviation of P2P streaming protocols" with "The abbreviation = of Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocols" - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "list = of peers storing chunks for a specific channel or streaming = file" with "list of peers which participate in a specific = video channel or in the distribution of a streaming file". =20 - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "from = peers for peer lists" with "from peers with a list of = candidate peers". - Section 3, 1st paragraph, replace "The problems brought by = proprietary" with "The problems imposed by proprietary" - Section 3.1, title of this section, replace "Difficulties for = ISP in deploying P2P caches" with "Difficulties for ISPs in = deploying P2P caches" - Section 3.1, 1st paragraph, replace "P2P cache is used to = reduce the" with "P2P caches are used to reduce the" or "P2P = caching is used to reduce the" - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, replace "With PPSP, P2P cache = can detect" with "With PPSP, a P2P cache can detect" - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, the last sentence, there are two = commas between "tracker/peer protocol" and "which is easier..." - Section 3.2, 2nd paragraph, replace "Similar to the cache = case, this" with "Similar to the caching case in Section 3.1, = this" - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, last sentence, the dot at the = end is missing. =20 - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, replace "trackers and = peers need more information" with "trackers and peers may need = more information" - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, there is terminology = collision, as serving gateway is translated to GGSN. A change = of a SGSN will not be noticed by the terminal. Moving to a = new GGSN might be. However, moving to a new GGSN might be = experience like any other event where the IP address changes. =20 - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "In other word" with "In = other words" - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "multiple programs in one = resource constraint" with "multiple programs in a resource = constraint" - Section 4, 1st paragraph: replace full 1st paragraph with "The objective of the PPSP working group is to design a = unified peer- to-peer streaming protocol (PPSP) to address the = problems discussed in the preceding sections." - Section 4, 3rd paragraph: replace "and then retrieve for = wanted streaming" with "and then retrieve the wanted streaming" - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace " topology e.g., a tree." = With " topology, e.g., a tree." - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "(maybe with recommended = order)" with "(potentially in a recommended order)" - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "Few practical systems" = with "Few commercially deployed" - Section 4, 5th paragraph: what is "unfounded data"? - Section 4, 6th paragraph: move this paragraph to page 12 = before paragraph starting with "In detail," - Section 4, last paragraph, page 12: I'm not sure that we = still need this paragraph. Can we remove it? - Section 5, 1st paragraph, there is a leftover: " ". - Section 5.2, 1st paragraph, replace "Also it can also talk" = with "It can also communicate" - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace " With PPSP Peers can = identify the types of access networks, their load/congestion = information" with " With PPSP, peers may be able to identify = the type of access networks, average load". Do not include = congestion information, as this information is anyhow too = volatile to be tracked by some entity of the peer network, = other than the peers which are anyhow directly communicating = with each other. - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace "be selected, which will = lead to" with "be selected, which may lead to" - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "section3" with "Section = 3" - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "nodes in the network" = with "nodes at the network" - Reference section: This section does not follow the style of = references as used in the RFC series and needs to be = updated. =20 [Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draft. =20 Kind regards =20 Martin =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe = Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6D20.122D9030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Martin,

 

What was the message?

 

Br

Christian

 

From:= = ext Martin Stiemerling [mailto:Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu] =
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:11 PM
To: = Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ext zhangyunfei; = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Christian,

 

From:= = Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) = [mailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]
Sent: Monday, August 29, = 2011 2:03 PM
To: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Martin, Yunfei,

 

In PPSP overview we have just a hint to the problem statement = ID.:

In PPSP requirements we have just a summary of security related = requirements.

But I did not found an ID describing security threats / problems due = to the usage of p2p technology for streaming.

I think we need such a general description and the problem statement = ID seems to be the best place for it.

 

[MS] I do not see the need for the security threats and problems of = p2p streaming technology in general, as different systems may face = different threats and even more may take approaches to mitigate them. It = is IMHO sufficient to name the high-level threats and to point to the = protocol drafts for the details.

 

 

  Martin

 

 

The actual version covers security problem description and points = towards possible solutions (it is not a solution = description).

The responsibility for proper method selection should be done in the = related protocol descriptions (tracker / peer).

 

What do you think about this proposal?

 

Best Regards

Christian

 

 

 

 

6. Security = Considerations

 

   PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on = security and copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution, content = pollution and DRM

   for a general P2P = streaming system. Instead PPSP security involves

   the security problems related to PPSP protocols. The = protocol

   documents will contain = a complete description on the security/privacy

   issues relevant to any usage of = PPSP.

 

6.1. = Tracker Protocol

 

   Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to = the trackers by

   sending large amount of = requests with tracker protocol. Distributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For = protection against

   denial of service = attacks, standard security methods can be used.

 

   Malicious peers may = report fake information on behalf of other = peers.

   This can be avoided = with peer authentication.

 

   Malicious peers may = report fake information about available content.

   For this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to = the tracker.

 

   Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, = can be very

   = harmful.

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the = regular tracker

   (man in the middle = attack). To avoid this tracker authentication

   could be used.

 

   The malicious acting = tracker may reply the peers with fake peer-list.

   Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the = fake peer-list.

 

6.2. Peer = Protocol

 

   Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer = interaction, malicious

   peers may also create fake information on chunk = availability and

   exchange it with other = peers. Some techniques to check the data

   integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for = detecting the

   = attack.

 

6.3. Solution for Security Threats / = Problems.

        The PPSP protocol = specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will =

        Choose and document = adequate methods to solve this security issues in a proper = way.

 

 

 

 

 

From:= = ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 = AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

= Hi Martin,

=    Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sure your = meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on = the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a = detailed description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, = right?

=    

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin = Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-08-22 20:41:53

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA = zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: = [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Yunfei,

 

Here is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly = short but should suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I = have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to = the scope; this is included in the current text. However, it will be = necessary to document what the threat to the content distribution is, = e.g., to not forward chunks or exchange chunks with bogus data; and also = to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc). =

 

Here you go:

 

6. Security Considerations

 

This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer = streaming protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol = specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP = working group.

 

The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the = tracker protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will = be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and = mitigations when combining both protocols in an application. This will = include privacy of the users, protection of the content distribution, = but not protection of the content by Digital Rights Management (DRM). =

 

  Martin

 

From:= = zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: = Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

= Hi Martin,

= Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the = reply.

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin = Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-08-15 21:06:14

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA = ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] = WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

[Writing =  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as =  individual  contributor]

 

Dear =  all,

 

I =  have  reviewed  the  draft =  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03  and  did =  mainly  find  editorial  issues. =  

 

Non-Editori= als:

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "   =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect =  P2P  streaming  applications  much   =  easier  without  needing  to  update  its =  library.";  It  might  not  be =  completely    obvious  to  an  average =  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier =  here.  How  about  adding  at  the =  end  of  this  sentence:  ",  as =  there  is  only  a  single  protocol =  to  be  detected  and  not  a =  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary =  P2P  protocols". =  

  =

= [Yunfei]Good proposal!

- =  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st =  sentence.  I  cannot  see  the =  relationship  between  the  section's =  intended  scope  and  DONA  or  any =  other  content  centric  networking. =  

= [Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream = content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a = trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e.g, in = section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading = sentence.

- =  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  lost =  me  with  the  everything  after  the =  first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I =  don't  understand  what  it  is  saying =  or  what  it  should  be  saying. =  

= [Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the = case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this = part.

- =  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The =  first  sentence  about  "mobility  and =  wireless  are  becoming  increasingly =  dominate  "  is  basically  reflecting =  the  current  situation,  but  what  is =  the  relationship  to  the  future =  Internet  activities  mentioned  there?  The =  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  already =  sort  of  dominant  by =  today.

= [Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, replace = "trend" by = "fact".

- =  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at, =  i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and =  potentially  other  optimizations.  But  it =  would  be  better  to  rephrase  the =  paragraph.  E.g.,  "PPSP  can  help =  to  reduce  the  resource  consumption =  on  resource  constraint  devices,  such =  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,  by =  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and =  ..."

= [Yunfei] Fine for the change.

 

- =  Security  section:  

I'm =  not  sure  that  the  current  security =  section  is  exactly  what  we  need =  for  the  problem  statement.  It  is =  on  one  hand  detailed  on  the =  threat  description  (e.g.,  "peers  may =  report  fake  information  about  available =  content"),  but  on  the  other =  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats. =  

I =  would  propose  to  rewrite  the =  security  section  to  cover  a  broader =  focus  on  highlighting  certain  threats, =  but  letting  the  fix  to  those =  to  the  particular  protocol  specifications, =  i.e.,  the  peer  protocol  and  the =  tracker  protocol.

 

I =  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if =  there  is  an  agreement  to  replace =  the  security  section. =  

= [Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on = broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more = comments.

 

Editorials =  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve =  readability):

- =  General:  There  are  many  places  where =  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g., =  in

 - =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " =  paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should =  read  "paradigm  [Survey].  The" =  (space  between  dot  and =  The)

- =  Which  Internet  draft  template  is =  being  used  for  this  draft?  The =  new  templates  have  the =  "Abstract"    before  the  part =  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" =  and  "  Copyright  Notice". =  

- =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma =  missing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN] =  PPstream"  with  "like  CNN  [CNN], =  PPstream"

- =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "Client-Server"  with =  "client-server".  The  spelling  of =  this  is  not  consistent  in  the =  draft.

- =  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace =  "Almost  all  these  systems"  with =  "  Almost  all  of  these =  systems".

- =  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace =  "P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols =  will  dynamically  reduce    "  with =  "P2P  streaming,  open  protocols  may =  reduce  "

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation =  of  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with =  "The  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer =  Streaming  Protocols"

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "Tracker",  replace  "list  of =  peers  storing  chunks  for  a  specific =  channel  or  streaming  file"  with =  "list  of  peers  which  participate =  in  a  specific  video  channel  or =  in  the  distribution  of  a  streaming =  file".  

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers =  for  peer  lists"  with  "from =  peers  with  a  list  of  candidate =  peers".

- =  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "The  problems  brought  by =  proprietary"  with  "The  problems =  imposed  by =  proprietary"

- =  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section, =  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in =  deploying  P2P  caches"  with =  "Difficulties  for  ISPs  in  deploying =  P2P  caches"

- =  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "P2P    cache  is  used  to =  reduce  the"  with  "P2P  caches =  are  used  to  reduce  the"  or =  "P2P      caching  is  used  to =  reduce  the"

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can =  detect"  with  "With  PPSP,  a =  P2P  cache  can =  detect"

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  last =  sentence,  there  are  two  commas =  between  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and =  "which  is =  easier..."

- =  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "Similar  to  the  cache  case, =  this"  with  "Similar  to  the =  caching  case  in  Section  3.1, =  this"

- =  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last =  sentence,  the  dot  at  the  end =  is  missing.  

- =  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10, =  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need =  more  information"  with  "trackers =  and  peers  may  need  more =  information"

- =  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10, =  there  is  terminology  collision,  as =  serving  gateway  is  translated  to =  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will =  not  be  noticed  by  the  terminal. =  Moving  to  a  new  GGSN  might  be. =  However,  moving  to  a  new  GGSN =  might  be  experience  like  any  other =  event  where  the  IP  address  changes. =  

- =  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "In  other  word"  with  "In =  other  words"

- =  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "multiple  programs  in  one  resource =  constraint"  with  "multiple  programs =  in  a  resource =  constraint"

- =  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace =  full  1st  paragraph =  with

"The =  objective  of  the  PPSP  working  group =  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- =  to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to =  address  the  problems  discussed  in =  the  preceding =  sections."

- =  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace =  "and  then  retrieve  for  wanted =  streaming"  with  "and  then =  retrieve  the  wanted =  streaming"

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "  topology  e.g.,  a  tree." =  With  "  topology,  e.g.,  a =  tree."

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "(maybe  with  recommended  order)" =  with  "(potentially  in  a  recommended =  order)"

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "Few  practical  systems"  with =  "Few  commercially =  deployed"

- =  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is =  "unfounded =  data"?

- =  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this =  paragraph  to  page  12  before =  paragraph  starting  with  "In =  detail,"

- =  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12: =  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still =  need  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove =  it?

- =  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for =  this  section >".

- =  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "Also  it  can  also  talk" =  with  "It  can  also =  communicate"

- =  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify =  the  types  of  access  networks,  their =  load/congestion  information"  with  " =  With  PPSP,  peers  may  be  able =  to  identify  the  type  of  access =  networks,  average  load".  Do  not =  include  congestion  information,  as  this =  information  is  anyhow  too  volatile =  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity =  of  the  peer  network,  other  than =  the  peers  which  are  anyhow  directly =  communicating  with  each =  other.

- =  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "be  selected,  which  will  lead =  to"  with  "be  selected,  which =  may  lead  to"

- =  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "section3"  with  "Section =  3"

- =  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "nodes  in  the  network"  with =  "nodes  at  the =  network"

- =  Reference  section:  This  section  does =  not  follow  the  style  of  references =  as  used  in  the  RFC  series  and =  needs  to  be =  updated.

 

= [Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version = draft.

 

Kind =  regards

 

  =  Martin

 

martin.stie= merling@neclab.eu

 

NEC =  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  | =  Registered  Office:  NEC  House,  1 =  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  | =  Registered  in  England  2832014 =  

 

 

___________= ____________________________________

ppsp =  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.o= rg

https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6D20.122D9030-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Tue Sep 6 22:52:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B7F21F8CA2 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:52:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.802, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hj4d05DKR+8j for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FBD21F8C9A for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2371628000330; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:54:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BgQFBqLVx0ui; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:54:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5F1280001AA; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:54:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 07:54:23 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" Thread-Topic: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AQHMZkOiDMy/BPlOgkqQRsEANytWQZVAgLnQgADyr/CAAAVBrQ== Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 05:54:22 +0000 Message-ID: <9A668C43-E1E7-48CF-B37A-61EBC44B4C4D@neclab.eu> References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9A668C43E1E748CFB37A61EBC44B4C4Dneclabeu_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 05:52:54 -0000 --_000_9A668C43E1E748CFB37A61EBC44B4C4Dneclabeu_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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The message is:

[MS] I do not see the need for the security threats and p= roblems of p2p streaming technology in general, as different systems may fa= ce different threats and even more may take approaches to mitigate them. It is IMHO sufficient to name the hi= gh-level threats and to point to the protocol drafts for the details.<= /o:p>

 

 This got lost in text thanks to outlook.=

  Martin



On 07.09.2011, at 07:36, "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)"= ; <christian.1.schmidt@ns= n.com> wrote:

Hi Martin,

 <= /p>

What was the message?

 <= /p>

Br

Christian

 <= /p>

From: ext Martin Stiemerling [mailto:Martin.Stie= merling@neclab.eu]
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:11 PM
To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ext zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 =

Hi Christian,<= /span>

 <= /p>

From: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) [m= ailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:03 PM
To: ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 =

Hi Martin, Yunfei,

 <= /p>

In PPSP overview we have = just a hint to the problem statement ID.:

In PPSP requirements we h= ave just a summary of security related requirements.

But I did not found an ID= describing security threats / problems due to the usage of p2p technology = for streaming.

I think we need such a ge= neral description and the problem statement ID seems to be the best place f= or it.

 <= /p>

[MS] I do not see the nee= d for the security threats and problems of p2p streaming technology in gene= ral, as different systems may face different threats and even more may take approaches to mitigate them. It is IMHO sufficient to n= ame the high-level threats and to point to the protocol drafts for the deta= ils.

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

  Martin<= /span>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

The actual version covers= security problem description and points towards possible solutions (it is = not a solution description).

The responsibility for pr= oper method selection should be done in the related protocol descriptions (= tracker / peer).

 <= /p>

What do you think about t= his proposal?

 <= /p>

Best Regards

Christian

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

6. Security Considerations

 

   PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and= copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution, content polluti= on and DRM

   for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security i= nvolves

   the security problems related to PPSP protocols. The protoc= ol

   documents will contain a complete description on the securi= ty/privacy

   issues relevant to any usage of PPSP.

 

6.1. Tracker Protocol

 

   Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the t= rackers by

   sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Dis= tributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For protecti= on against

   denial of service attacks, standard security methods can be= used.

 

   Malicious peers may report fake information on behalf of ot= her peers.

   This can be avoided with peer authentication.

 

   Malicious peers may report fake information about available= content.

   For this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to the tr= acker.

 

   Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, can be v= ery

   harmful.

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the regul= ar tracker

   (man in the middle attack). To avoid this tracker authentic= ation

   could be used.

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake = peer-list.

   Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the fake = peer-list.

 

6.2. Peer Protocol

 

   Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction, ma= licious

   peers may also create fake information on chunk availabilit= y and

   exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the = data

   integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detectin= g the

   attack.

 <= /p>

6.3. Solution for Securit= y Threats / Problems.

    &= nbsp;   The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol= and the tracker protocol, will

    &= nbsp;   Choose and document adequate methods to solve this s= ecurity issues in a proper way.

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:= ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 =

Hi Martin,

   Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sur= e your meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a d= etailed description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, right= ?

   

BR<= o:p>

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-22 20:41:53=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei; ppsp@= ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Yunfei,

 <= /p>

Here is the text proposal= for the security section. It is fairly short but should suffice the consid= erations for the problem statement. I have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the scope; this is i= ncluded in the current text. However, it will be necessary to document what= the threat to the content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or = exchange chunks with bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc).

 <= /p>

Here you go:<= /o:p>

 <= /p>

6. Security Consideration= s

 <= /p>

This memo discusses the p= roblem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protocols without specifyi= ng the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP working group.

 <= /p>

The PPSP protocol specifi= cations, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will document th= e expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combinin= g both protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users,= protection of the content distribution, but not protection of the content = by Digital Rights Management (DRM).

 <= /p>

  Martin=

 <= /p>

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobil= e.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 =

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply= .

BR

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling=

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@= ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp= -problem-statement-03

 

[Writing  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as &nbs= p;individual  contributor]

 

Dear  all,

 

I  have  reviewed  the  draft  draft-ietf-ppsp-p= roblem-statement-03  and  did  mainly  find  edito= rial  issues.  

 

Non-Editorials:

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "  =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect  = P2P  streaming  applications  much    easier  = ;without  needing  to  update  its  library.";  It  might=  not  be  completely    obvious  to  an=  average  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier  here.=  How  about  adding  at  the  end  of &= nbsp;this  sentence:  ",  as  there  is  = ;only  a  single  protocol  to  be  detected  and  not  = a  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary &nbs= p;P2P  protocols".  

 

[Yunfei]Good proposal!

-  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st  sen= tence.  I  cannot  see  the  relationship  be= tween  the  section's  intended  scope  and  = DONA  or  any  other  content  centric  networkin= g.  

[Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stre= am content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e= .g, in section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence.

-  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  los= t  me  with  the  everything  after  the &nbs= p;first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I  d= on't  understand  what  it  is  saying  or  = what  it  should  be  saying.  <= /p>

[Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexi= ty of the case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this part.

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The  fir= st  sentence  about  "mobility  and  wireless=  are  becoming  increasingly  dominate  " &n= bsp;is  basically  reflecting  the  current  situation, =  but  what  is  the  relationship  to  t= he  future  Internet  activities  mentioned  there= ?  The  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  = ;already  sort  of  dominant  by  today.

[Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, rep= lace "trend" by "fact".

-  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at,  = ;i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and  pot= entially  other  optimizations.  But  it  would  be &= nbsp;better  to  rephrase  the  paragraph.  E.g., =  "PPSP  can  help  to  reduce  the  = ;resource  consumption  on  resource  constraint  = devices,  such  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,=  by  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and  ..."

[Yunfei] Fine for the change.

 

-  Security  section:  

I'm  not  sure  that  the  current  securit= y  section  is  exactly  what  we  need  = ;for  the  problem  statement.  It  is  on &n= bsp;one  hand  detailed  on  the  threat  description  (e.= g.,  "peers  may  report  fake  information &= nbsp;about  available  content"),  but  on  t= he  other  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats.  

I  would  propose  to  rewrite  the  securi= ty  section  to  cover  a  broader  focus &nb= sp;on  highlighting  certain  threats,  but  letti= ng  the  fix  to  those  to  the  particul= ar  protocol  specifications,  i.e.,  the  peer &n= bsp;protocol  and  the  tracker  protocol.<= /o:p>

 

I  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if &= nbsp;there  is  an  agreement  to  replace  t= he  security  section.  

[Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on= broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments.

 

Editorials  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve  r= eadability):

-  General:  There  are  many  places  wher= e  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g.,  in

 -  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " &n= bsp;paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should  read &= nbsp;"paradigm  [Survey].  The"  (space  betw= een  dot  and  The)

-  Which  Internet  draft  template  is  be= ing  used  for  this  draft?  The  new  = templates  have  the  "Abstract"    befo= re  the  part  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" &n= bsp;and  "  Copyright  Notice".  =

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma  mis= sing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN]  PPstream&q= uot;  with  "like  CNN  [CNN],  PPstream"= ;

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Client-Server"  with  "client-server".  = The  spelling  of  this  is  not  consistent =  in  the  draft.

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Almost  all  these  systems"  with  &quo= t;  Almost  all  of  these  systems".<= o:p>

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols  will &= nbsp;dynamically  reduce    "  with  "P2= P  streaming,  open  protocols  may  reduce  "=

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation  of=  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with  "The=  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer  Streaming  Protocols"

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "list  of  peers &n= bsp;storing  chunks  for  a  specific  channel &nb= sp;or  streaming  file"  with  "list  of  peers  wh= ich  participate  in  a  specific  video  cha= nnel  or  in  the  distribution  of  a  = streaming  file".  

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers  for &= nbsp;peer  lists"  with  "from  peers  w= ith  a  list  of  candidate  peers".

-  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;The  problems  brought  by  proprietary" &nbs= p;with  "The  problems  imposed  by  propriet= ary"

-  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section,=  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in  = deploying  P2P  caches"  with  "Difficulties =  for  ISPs  in  deploying  P2P  caches"

-  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"P2P    cache  is  used  to  reduce &nb= sp;the"  with  "P2P  caches  are  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"  or  "P2P      caching  is  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect" =  with  "With  PPSP,  a  P2P  cache  = ;can  detect"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  las= t  sentence,  there  are  two  commas  betwee= n  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and  "which=  is  easier..."

-  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Similar  to  the  cache  case,  this" =  with  "Similar  to  the  caching  case =  in  Section  3.1,  this"

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last  se= ntence,  the  dot  at  the  end  is  mis= sing.  

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need  = ;more  information"  with  "trackers  and &nb= sp;peers  may  need  more  information"

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  there  is  terminology  collision,  as  se= rving  gateway  is  translated  to  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will  not  be &nb= sp;noticed  by  the  terminal.  Moving  to  a=  new  GGSN  might  be.  However,  moving &nb= sp;to  a  new  GGSN  might  be  experience &n= bsp;like  any  other  event  where  the  IP &= nbsp;address  changes.  

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"In  other  word"  with  "In  othe= r  words"

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"multiple  programs  in  one  resource  cons= traint"  with  "multiple  programs  in  = a  resource  constraint"

-  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace  f= ull  1st  paragraph  with

"The  objective  of  the  PPSP  working &nb= sp;group  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- &= nbsp;to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to  add= ress  the  problems  discussed  in  the  precedin= g  sections."

-  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;and  then  retrieve  for  wanted  streaming&q= uot;  with  "and  then  retrieve  the  w= anted  streaming"

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;  topology  e.g.,  a  tree."  With  = ;"  topology,  e.g.,  a  tree."

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;(maybe  with  recommended  order)"  with &nbs= p;"(potentially  in  a  recommended  order)"<= /span>

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;Few  practical  systems"  with  "Few &nb= sp;commercially  deployed"

-  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is &= nbsp;"unfounded  data"?

-  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this=  paragraph  to  page  12  before  paragraph =  starting  with  "In  detail,"

-  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12:=  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still  need =  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove  it?

-  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for  this &= nbsp;section >".

-  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Also  it  can  also  talk"  with  = ;"It  can  also  communicate"

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify  th= e  types  of  access  networks,  their  load/= congestion  information"  with  "  With  PPSP, &nb= sp;peers  may  be  able  to  identify  the &n= bsp;type  of  access  networks,  average  load&quo= t;.  Do  not  include  congestion  information, &n= bsp;as  this  information  is  anyhow  too  v= olatile  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity &n= bsp;of  the  peer  network,  other  than  the  = ;peers  which  are  anyhow  directly  communicatin= g  with  each  other.

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"be  selected,  which  will  lead  to" =  with  "be  selected,  which  may  lead =  to"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"section3"  with  "Section  3"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"nodes  in  the  network"  with  "= nodes  at  the  network"

-  Reference  section:  This  section  does &nbs= p;not  follow  the  style  of  references  as=  used  in  the  RFC  series  and  needs=  to  be  updated.

 

[Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draf= t.

 

Kind  regards

 

   Martin

 

 

NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registere= d  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  En= gland  2832014  

 

 

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ppsp  mailing  list

--_000_9A668C43E1E748CFB37A61EBC44B4C4Dneclabeu_-- From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Wed Sep 7 01:12:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE1221F8BAA for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 01:12:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.415 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.415 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8d94G5lAGK0P for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 01:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B5A21F8C13 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 01:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p878Dbhr007949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:13:37 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC048.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.32.94]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p878DZ1f027104; Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:13:36 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by DEMUEXC048.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:13:35 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC6D36.0A049242" Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:13:33 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AQHMZkOiDMy/BPlOgkqQRsEANytWQZU4H83zgAhh1RCAAQ97EA== References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> <201109011508590279274@chinamobile.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext Martin Stiemerling" , "zhangyunfei" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2011 08:13:35.0570 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A51DB20:01CC6D36] Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 08:12:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6D36.0A049242 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Martin, =20 I am not in favor of replacing the existing text. I would like to see = some kind of a merger. What about the following proposal? =20 Br Christian =20 =20 6. Security Considerations =20 This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer = streaming protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol = specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP = working group.=20 =20 This document is neither a requirement document nor a protocol = specification. But we believe it is important for the reader to = understand areas of security caused by the p2p nature of the proposed = solution. Main issue is the usage of untrusted entities (peers) for = service provisioning. =20 Malicious peers may - Issue denial of service attacks to the trackers by sending = large amount of requests with the tracker protocol - May fake information on behalf of other peers - May fake information about available content - May fake information about chunk availability Malicious peers/trackers may - May reply instead of the regular tracker (man in the middle = attack) =20 The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the = tracker protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will = be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and = mitigations when combining both protocols in an application. This will = include privacy of the users, protection of the content distribution, = but not protection of the content by Digital Rights Management (DRM). =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: ext Martin Stiemerling [mailto:Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu]=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:12 PM To: zhangyunfei; Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org Subject: RE: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Short answer: Do you refer to add my text proposal to the existing text = or to replace the existing text? =20 I would replace it, as some threats, but not all, are outlined, but = without a solution, as this draft cannot give a detailed solution.=20 =20 Martin =20 From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 9:09 AM To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Christian and Martin, Thanks for the comments. From my point of view, the general = descrption of the security threat and points to possible solutions is = important for readers to understand the whole picture. So it would be = great if the draft can add what Martin proposed based on our previous = version. How do you think about this, Martin? BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-09-01 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-29 20:03:05 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; = ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Martin, Yunfei, =20 In PPSP overview we have just a hint to the problem statement ID.: In PPSP requirements we have just a summary of security related = requirements. But I did not found an ID describing security threats / problems due to = the usage of p2p technology for streaming. I think we need such a general description and the problem statement ID = seems to be the best place for it. =20 The actual version covers security problem description and points = towards possible solutions (it is not a solution description). The responsibility for proper method selection should be done in the = related protocol descriptions (tracker / peer). =20 What do you think about this proposal? =20 Best Regards Christian =20 =20 =20 =20 6. Security Considerations =20 PPSP will not attempt to provide a solution on security and copyright issues like malicious content distribution, content pollution and DRM for a general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security involves the security problems related to PPSP protocols. The protocol documents will contain a complete description on the security/privacy issues relevant to any usage of PPSP. =20 6.1. Tracker Protocol =20 Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the trackers by sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. Distributed trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For protection against denial of service attacks, standard security methods can be used. =20 Malicious peers may report fake information on behalf of other peers. This can be avoided with peer authentication. =20 Malicious peers may report fake information about available content. For this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to the tracker. =20 Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, can be very harmful. =20 The malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the regular tracker (man in the middle attack). To avoid this tracker authentication could be used. =20 The malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake peer-list. Peers may find they cannot find desired data with the fake peer-list. =20 6.2. Peer Protocol =20 Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction, malicious peers may also create fake information on chunk availability and exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the data integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting the attack. =20 6.3. Solution for Security Threats / Problems. The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and = the tracker protocol, will=20 Choose and document adequate methods to solve this security = issues in a proper way. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ext zhangyunfei Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Martin, Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sure your meaning: Do = you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP = secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a detailed = description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, right? =20 BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-08-23 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-22 20:41:53 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Yunfei,=20 =20 Here is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly short = but should suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I have = included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the = scope; this is included in the current text. However, it will be = necessary to document what the threat to the content distribution is, = e.g., to not forward chunks or exchange chunks with bogus data; and also = to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc).=20 =20 Here you go: =20 6. Security Considerations =20 This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer = streaming protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol = specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP = working group. =20 The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the = tracker protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will = be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and = mitigations when combining both protocols in an application. This will = include privacy of the users, protection of the content distribution, = but not protection of the content by Digital Rights Management (DRM).=20 =20 Martin =20 From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 Hi Martin, Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply. BR Yunfei =20 ________________________________ zhangyunfei 2011-08-16 ________________________________ =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 =20 [Writing not as WG chair, but as individual contributor] =20 Dear all, =20 I have reviewed the draft draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 and = did mainly find editorial issues. =20 =20 Non-Editorials: - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, " With PPSP, P2P cache can = detect P2P streaming applications much easier without needing = to update its library."; It might not be completely obvious = to an average reader why a standarizded P2P protocol would = make things easier here. How about adding at the end of this = sentence: ", as there is only a single protocol to be = detected and not a potentially unknown set of proprietary P2P = protocols". =20 =20 [Yunfei]Good proposal! - Section 3.2, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence. I cannot see the = relationship between the section's intended scope and DONA or = any other content centric networking. =20 [Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream = content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a = trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e.g, in = section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence. - Section 3.2, 3rd paragraph, You lost me with the everything = after the first sentence of this paragraph. I don't understand = what it is saying or what it should be saying. =20 [Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the = case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this = part. - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, The first sentence about = "mobility and wireless are becoming increasingly dominate " is = basically reflecting the current situation, but what is the = relationship to the future Internet activities mentioned there? = The mobile and wireless part is already sort of dominant by = today. [Yunfei] Good question. Similar to section 3.1, replace "trend" by = "fact". - Section 3.4, 2nd paragraph: I know what this paragraph is = aiming at, i.e., reusing the same library and potentially other = optimizations. But it would be better to rephrase the = paragraph. E.g., "PPSP can help to reduce the resource = consumption on resource constraint devices, such as STBs or = mobile phones, by reusing a PPSP base library and ..." [Yunfei] Fine for the change. =20 - Security section: =20 I'm not sure that the current security section is exactly what = we need for the problem statement. It is on one hand = detailed on the threat description (e.g., "peers may report = fake information about available content"), but on the other = side lacks the description of countermeasures to those threats. = I would propose to rewrite the security section to cover a = broader focus on highlighting certain threats, but letting the = fix to those to the particular protocol specifications, i.e., = the peer protocol and the tracker protocol. =20 I can provide some initial text, if there is an agreement to = replace the security section. =20 [Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on = broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments. =20 Editorials (mainly suggestions to improve readability): - General: There are many places where the dots are misplaced, = e.g., in - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, " paradigm [Survey].The". This = should read "paradigm [Survey]. The" (space between dot and = The) - Which Internet draft template is being used for this draft? = The new templates have the "Abstract" before the part on " = Status of this Memo" and " Copyright Notice". =20 - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, comma missing, replace "like CNN = [CNN] PPstream" with "like CNN [CNN], PPstream" - Section 1, 2nd paragraph, replace "Client-Server" with = "client-server". The spelling of this is not consistent in the = draft. - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "Almost all these systems" = with " Almost all of these systems". - Section 1, 4th paragraph, replace "P2P streaming, the open = protocols will dynamically reduce " with "P2P streaming, open = protocols may reduce " - Section 2, paragraph starting with "PPSP", replace "The = abbreviation of P2P streaming protocols" with "The abbreviation = of Peer-to-Peer Streaming Protocols" - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "list = of peers storing chunks for a specific channel or streaming = file" with "list of peers which participate in a specific = video channel or in the distribution of a streaming file". =20 - Section 2, paragraph starting with "Tracker", replace "from = peers for peer lists" with "from peers with a list of = candidate peers". - Section 3, 1st paragraph, replace "The problems brought by = proprietary" with "The problems imposed by proprietary" - Section 3.1, title of this section, replace "Difficulties for = ISP in deploying P2P caches" with "Difficulties for ISPs in = deploying P2P caches" - Section 3.1, 1st paragraph, replace "P2P cache is used to = reduce the" with "P2P caches are used to reduce the" or "P2P = caching is used to reduce the" - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, replace "With PPSP, P2P cache = can detect" with "With PPSP, a P2P cache can detect" - Section 3.1, 2nd paragraph, the last sentence, there are two = commas between "tracker/peer protocol" and "which is easier..." - Section 3.2, 2nd paragraph, replace "Similar to the cache = case, this" with "Similar to the caching case in Section 3.1, = this" - Section 3.3, 1st paragraph, last sentence, the dot at the = end is missing. =20 - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, replace "trackers and = peers need more information" with "trackers and peers may need = more information" - Section 3.3, 2nd paragraph, page 10, there is terminology = collision, as serving gateway is translated to GGSN. A change = of a SGSN will not be noticed by the terminal. Moving to a = new GGSN might be. However, moving to a new GGSN might be = experience like any other event where the IP address changes. =20 - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "In other word" with "In = other words" - Section 3.4, 1st paragraph, replace "multiple programs in one = resource constraint" with "multiple programs in a resource = constraint" - Section 4, 1st paragraph: replace full 1st paragraph with "The objective of the PPSP working group is to design a = unified peer- to-peer streaming protocol (PPSP) to address the = problems discussed in the preceding sections." - Section 4, 3rd paragraph: replace "and then retrieve for = wanted streaming" with "and then retrieve the wanted streaming" - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace " topology e.g., a tree." = With " topology, e.g., a tree." - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "(maybe with recommended = order)" with "(potentially in a recommended order)" - Section 4, 4th paragraph: replace "Few practical systems" = with "Few commercially deployed" - Section 4, 5th paragraph: what is "unfounded data"? - Section 4, 6th paragraph: move this paragraph to page 12 = before paragraph starting with "In detail," - Section 4, last paragraph, page 12: I'm not sure that we = still need this paragraph. Can we remove it? - Section 5, 1st paragraph, there is a leftover: " ". - Section 5.2, 1st paragraph, replace "Also it can also talk" = with "It can also communicate" - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace " With PPSP Peers can = identify the types of access networks, their load/congestion = information" with " With PPSP, peers may be able to identify = the type of access networks, average load". Do not include = congestion information, as this information is anyhow too = volatile to be tracked by some entity of the peer network, = other than the peers which are anyhow directly communicating = with each other. - Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, replace "be selected, which will = lead to" with "be selected, which may lead to" - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "section3" with "Section = 3" - Section 5.5, 1st paragraph, replace "nodes in the network" = with "nodes at the network" - Reference section: This section does not follow the style of = references as used in the RFC series and needs to be = updated. =20 [Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draft. =20 Kind regards =20 Martin =20 martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu =20 NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe = Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London = W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6D36.0A049242 Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Martin,

 

I am not in favor of replacing the existing text. I would like to see = some kind of a merger.

What about the following proposal?

 

Br

Christian

 

 

6. Security Considerations

 

This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer = streaming protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol = specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP = working group.

 

This document is neither a requirement document nor a protocol = specification. But we believe it is important for the reader to = understand areas of security caused by the p2p nature of the proposed = solution. Main issue is the usage of untrusted entities (peers) for = service provisioning.

 

Malicious peers may

-          = Issue denial of service attacks to the trackers by sending large = amount of requests with the tracker protocol

-          = May fake information on behalf of other peers

-          = May fake information about available content

-          = May fake information about chunk availability

Malicious peers/trackers may

-          = May reply instead of the regular tracker (man in the middle = attack)

 

The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the = tracker protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will = be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and = mitigations when combining both protocols in an application. This will = include privacy of the users, protection of the content distribution, = but not protection of the content by Digital Rights Management = (DRM).

 

 

 

 

 

 

From:= = ext Martin Stiemerling [mailto:Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu] =
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:12 PM
To: = zhangyunfei; Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); = ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Short answer: Do you refer to add my text proposal to the existing = text or to replace the existing text?

 

I would replace it, as some threats, but not all,  are outlined, = but without a solution, as this draft cannot give a detailed solution. =

 

  Martin

 

From:= = zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com]
Sent: = Thursday, September 01, 2011 9:09 AM
To: Schmidt, Christian 1. = (NSN - DE/; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RE: = [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

= Hi Christian and Martin,

=    Thanks for the comments. From my point of view, the = general descrption of the security threat and points to possible = solutions is important for readers to understand the whole picture. = So it would be great if the draft can add what Martin = proposed based on our previous version. How do you think about = this, Martin?

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-09-01

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, = Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-08-29 20:03:05

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA = ext = zhangyunfei; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: = [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Martin, Yunfei,=

 

In PPSP overview we have just a hint to the problem statement = ID.:

In PPSP requirements we have just a summary of security related = requirements.

But I did not found an ID describing security threats / problems due = to the usage of p2p technology for = streaming.

I think we need such a general description and the problem statement = ID seems to be the best place for = it.

 

The actual version covers security problem description and points = towards possible solutions (it is not a solution = description).

The responsibility for proper method selection should be done in the = related protocol descriptions (tracker / = peer).

 

What do you think about this = proposal?

 

Best Regards

Christian

 

 

 

 

6. Security = Considerations=

 =

   PPSP = will not attempt to provide a solution on security and = copyright

   issues = like malicious content distribution, content pollution and = DRM

   for a = general P2P streaming system. Instead PPSP security involves

   the = security problems related to PPSP protocols. The protocol

   = documents will contain a complete description on the = security/privacy

   issues = relevant to any usage of PPSP.

 =

6.1. Tracker = Protocol

 =

   = Malicious peers may issue denial of service attack to the trackers = by

   = sending large amount of requests with tracker protocol. = Distributed

   = trackers deployment may alleviate the problem. For protection = against

   denial = of service attacks, standard security methods can be used.

 =

   = Malicious peers may report fake information on behalf of other = peers.

   This = can be avoided with peer authentication.

 =

   = Malicious peers may report fake information about available = content.

   For = this purpose, malicious peers can be reported to the = tracker.

 =

   = Malicious tracker, especially distributed version, can be = very

   = harmful.

 =

   The = malicious acting tracker may reply instead of the regular = tracker

   (man = in the middle attack). To avoid this tracker authentication

   could = be used.

 =

   The = malicious acting tracker may reply the peers with fake = peer-list.

   Peers = may find they cannot find desired data with the fake = peer-list.

 =

6.2. Peer = Protocol

 =

   = Similar to the behavior in the tracker-peer interaction, = malicious

   peers = may also create fake information on chunk availability and

   = exchange it with other peers. Some techniques to check the = data

   = integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be useful for detecting = the

   = attack.

 

6.3. Solution for Security Threats / = Problems.

        The PPSP protocol = specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will =

        Choose and document = adequate methods to solve this security issues in a proper = way.

 

 

 

 

 

<= div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0cm 0cm 0cm'>

From:= = ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, = August 23, 2011 4:32 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

=

 

= Hi Martin,

=    Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sure your = meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on = the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a = detailed description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, = right?

=    

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin = Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-08-22 20:41:53

<= p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA = zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA RE: = [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

=

 

Hi Yunfei,

 

Here is the text proposal for the security section. It is fairly = short but should suffice the considerations for the problem statement. I = have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to = the scope; this is included in the current text. However, it will be = necessary to document what the threat to the content distribution is, = e.g., to not forward chunks or exchange chunks with bogus data; and also = to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc). =

 

Here you go:

 

6. Security Considerations

 

This memo discusses the problem statement around a peer-to-peer = streaming protocols without specifying the protocols. The protocol = specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP = working group.

 

The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol and the = tracker protocol, will document the expected threats and how they will = be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and = mitigations when combining both protocols in an application. This will = include privacy of the users, protection of the content distribution, = but not protection of the content by Digital Rights Management (DRM). =

 

  Martin

 

From:= = zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei@= chinamobile.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 = AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = [ppsp] WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

=

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'>= Hi Martin,

= Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the = reply.

= BR

= Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin = Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA = 2011-08-15 21:06:14

<= p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dleft style=3D'text-align:left'>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA = ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] = WGLC comments = draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03

=

 

[Writing =  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as =  individual =  contributor]

 

Dear =  all,

 

I =  have  reviewed  the  draft =  draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03  and  did =  mainly  find  editorial  issues. =  

 

Non-Editori= als:

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "   =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect =  P2P  streaming  applications  much   =  easier  without  needing  to  update  its =  library.";  It  might  not  be =  completely    obvious  to  an  average =  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier =  here.  How  about  adding  at  the =  end  of  this  sentence:  ",  as =  there  is  only  a  single  protocol =  to  be  detected  and  not  a =  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary =  P2P  protocols". =  

  =

= [Yunfei]Good proposal!

- =  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st =  sentence.  I  cannot  see  the =  relationship  between  the  section's =  intended  scope  and  DONA  or  any =  other  content  centric  networking. =  

= [Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stream = content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a = trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e.g, in = section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading = sentence.

- =  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  lost =  me  with  the  everything  after  the =  first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I =  don't  understand  what  it  is  saying =  or  what  it  should  be  saying. =  

= [Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexity of the = case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this = part.

- =  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The =  first  sentence  about  "mobility  and =  wireless  are  becoming  increasingly =  dominate  "  is  basically  reflecting =  the  current  situation,  but  what  is =  the  relationship  to  the  future =  Internet  activities  mentioned  there?  The =  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  already =  sort  of  dominant  by =  today.

= [Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, replace = "trend" by = "fact".

- =  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at, =  i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and =  potentially  other  optimizations.  But  it =  would  be  better  to  rephrase  the =  paragraph.  E.g.,  "PPSP  can  help =  to  reduce  the  resource  consumption =  on  resource  constraint  devices,  such =  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,  by =  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and =  ..."

= [Yunfei] Fine for the = change.

 

- =  Security  section: =  

I'm =  not  sure  that  the  current  security =  section  is  exactly  what  we  need =  for  the  problem  statement.  It  is =  on  one  hand  detailed  on  the =  threat  description  (e.g.,  "peers  may =  report  fake  information  about  available =  content"),  but  on  the  other =  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats. =  

I =  would  propose  to  rewrite  the =  security  section  to  cover  a  broader =  focus  on  highlighting  certain  threats, =  but  letting  the  fix  to  those =  to  the  particular  protocol  specifications, =  i.e.,  the  peer  protocol  and  the =  tracker =  protocol.

 

I =  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if =  there  is  an  agreement  to  replace =  the  security  section. =  

= [Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on = broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more = comments.

 

Editorials =  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve =  readability):

- =  General:  There  are  many  places  where =  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g., =  in

 - =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " =  paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should =  read  "paradigm  [Survey].  The" =  (space  between  dot  and =  The)

- =  Which  Internet  draft  template  is =  being  used  for  this  draft?  The =  new  templates  have  the =  "Abstract"    before  the  part =  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" =  and  "  Copyright  Notice". =  

- =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma =  missing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN] =  PPstream"  with  "like  CNN  [CNN], =  PPstream"

- =  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "Client-Server"  with =  "client-server".  The  spelling  of =  this  is  not  consistent  in  the =  draft.

- =  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace =  "Almost  all  these  systems"  with =  "  Almost  all  of  these =  systems".

- =  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace =  "P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols =  will  dynamically  reduce    "  with =  "P2P  streaming,  open  protocols  may =  reduce =  "

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation =  of  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with =  "The  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer =  Streaming =  Protocols"

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "Tracker",  replace  "list  of =  peers  storing  chunks  for  a  specific =  channel  or  streaming  file"  with =  "list  of  peers  which  participate =  in  a  specific  video  channel  or =  in  the  distribution  of  a  streaming =  file". =  

- =  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with =  "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers =  for  peer  lists"  with  "from =  peers  with  a  list  of  candidate =  peers".

- =  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "The  problems  brought  by =  proprietary"  with  "The  problems =  imposed  by =  proprietary"

- =  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section, =  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in =  deploying  P2P  caches"  with =  "Difficulties  for  ISPs  in  deploying =  P2P =  caches"

- =  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "P2P    cache  is  used  to =  reduce  the"  with  "P2P  caches =  are  used  to  reduce  the"  or =  "P2P      caching  is  used  to =  reduce =  the"

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can =  detect"  with  "With  PPSP,  a =  P2P  cache  can =  detect"

- =  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  last =  sentence,  there  are  two  commas =  between  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and =  "which  is =  easier..."

- =  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "Similar  to  the  cache  case, =  this"  with  "Similar  to  the =  caching  case  in  Section  3.1, =  this"

- =  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last =  sentence,  the  dot  at  the  end =  is  missing. =  

- =  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10, =  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need =  more  information"  with  "trackers =  and  peers  may  need  more =  information"

- =  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10, =  there  is  terminology  collision,  as =  serving  gateway  is  translated  to =  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will =  not  be  noticed  by  the  terminal. =  Moving  to  a  new  GGSN  might  be. =  However,  moving  to  a  new  GGSN =  might  be  experience  like  any  other =  event  where  the  IP  address  changes. =  

- =  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "In  other  word"  with  "In =  other =  words"

- =  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "multiple  programs  in  one  resource =  constraint"  with  "multiple  programs =  in  a  resource =  constraint"

- =  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace =  full  1st  paragraph =  with

"The =  objective  of  the  PPSP  working  group =  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- =  to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to =  address  the  problems  discussed  in =  the  preceding =  sections."

- =  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace =  "and  then  retrieve  for  wanted =  streaming"  with  "and  then =  retrieve  the  wanted =  streaming"

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "  topology  e.g.,  a  tree." =  With  "  topology,  e.g.,  a =  tree."

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "(maybe  with  recommended  order)" =  with  "(potentially  in  a  recommended =  order)"

- =  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace =  "Few  practical  systems"  with =  "Few  commercially =  deployed"

- =  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is =  "unfounded =  data"?

- =  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this =  paragraph  to  page  12  before =  paragraph  starting  with  "In =  detail,"

- =  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12: =  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still =  need  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove =  it?

- =  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for =  this  section = >".

- =  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "Also  it  can  also  talk" =  with  "It  can  also =  communicate"

- =  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify =  the  types  of  access  networks,  their =  load/congestion  information"  with  " =  With  PPSP,  peers  may  be  able =  to  identify  the  type  of  access =  networks,  average  load".  Do  not =  include  congestion  information,  as  this =  information  is  anyhow  too  volatile =  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity =  of  the  peer  network,  other  than =  the  peers  which  are  anyhow  directly =  communicating  with  each =  other.

- =  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace =  "be  selected,  which  will  lead =  to"  with  "be  selected,  which =  may  lead =  to"

- =  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "section3"  with  "Section =  3"

- =  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace =  "nodes  in  the  network"  with =  "nodes  at  the =  network"

- =  Reference  section:  This  section  does =  not  follow  the  style  of  references =  as  used  in  the  RFC  series  and =  needs  to  be =  updated.

 

= [Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version = draft.

 

Kind =  regards

 

  =  Martin

 

 

NEC =  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  | =  Registered  Office:  NEC  House,  1 =  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  | =  Registered  in  England  2832014 =  

 

 

___________= ____________________________________

=

ppsp =  mailing =  list

------_=_NextPart_001_01CC6D36.0A049242-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Thu Sep 8 05:49:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BC321F8B50 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 05:49:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.786, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dzBNIqhwrkZ9 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 05:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8263B21F8B42 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 05:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C2428000397 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:51:33 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mz3xsMWuebI9 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:51:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F632800034C for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:51:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:51:28 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Virtual Interim Meeting: September 28th, 2pm CEST (12pm UTC) Thread-Index: AcxuJA8rXtI9Ej7mSDCUfvMdJ4rCKg== Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:51:28 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] Virtual Interim Meeting: September 28th, 2pm CEST (12pm UTC) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 12:49:42 -0000 Hi all,=20 As announced earlier, we will hold a virtual interim meeting, with WebEx su= pport, as follows: Date: September 28th, 2011. Time: 2pm CEST (12pm UTC) Duration: 2.0 HOURS The virtual interim meeting will be used to discuss these main topics: - PPSP peer protocol: review of current proposals for the peer protocol. Te= chnical discussion on how to progress the proposals to come to a WG item fo= r the peer protocol. - Tracker protocol: review of current proposals for the tracker protocol. T= echnical discussion on how to progress the proposals to come to a WG item f= or the tracker protocol. WebEx details for this meeting will be posted to the PPPS mailing list (htt= p://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/maillist.html). Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014=20 From wwwrun@ietfa.amsl.com Thu Sep 8 14:45:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietf.org Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 6683821F8B46; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: IESG Secretary To: IETF Announcement list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20110908214521.6683821F8B46@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 21:45:21 -0000 The PPSP working group will hold a virtual interim meeting, with WebEx support, as follows: Date: September 28th, 2011. Time: 2pm CEST (12pm UTC) Duration: 2.0 HOURS The virtual interim meeting will be used to discuss these main topics: - PPSP peer protocol: review of current proposals for the peer protocol. Technical discussion on how to progress the proposals to come to a WG item for the peer protocol. - Tracker protocol: review of current proposals for the tracker protocol. Technical discussion on how to progress the proposals to come to a WG item for the tracker protocol. WebEx details for this meeting will be posted to the PPPS mailing list (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/maillist.html). From christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com Thu Sep 8 23:26:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3014821F8B82; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 23:26:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.654, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 80BhNsZKmfJU; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 23:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (demumfd002.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6274A21F85C0; Thu, 8 Sep 2011 23:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.56]) by demumfd002.nsn-inter.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p896SUX3009333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:28:30 +0200 Received: from demuexc024.nsn-intra.net (demuexc024.nsn-intra.net [10.159.32.11]) by demuprx017.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p896SUoZ015275; Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:28:30 +0200 Received: from DEMUEXC013.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.128.24]) by demuexc024.nsn-intra.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:28:12 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:28:11 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20110908214521.6683821F8B46@ietfa.amsl.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 Thread-Index: AcxucPBQNc3qMTXKTXCu5VUVEgZK8wASAuUA References: <20110908214521.6683821F8B46@ietfa.amsl.com> From: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ext IESG Secretary" , "IETF Announcement list" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Sep 2011 06:28:12.0488 (UTC) FILETIME=[A64B9C80:01CC6EB9] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 06:26:48 -0000 There must be something wrong with the start time of the planned meeting. 2pm CEST (Central European Summer time) is not the same as 12pm UTC (Coordinated Universal Time). Best Regards Christian Schmidt -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext IESG Secretary Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 11:45 PM To: IETF Announcement list Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 The PPSP working group will hold a virtual interim meeting, with WebEx=20 support, as follows: Date: September 28th, 2011. Time: 2pm CEST (12pm UTC) Duration: 2.0 HOURS The virtual interim meeting will be used to discuss these main topics: - PPSP peer protocol: review of current proposals for the peer protocol. Technical discussion on how to progress the proposals to come to a WG=20 item for the peer protocol. - Tracker protocol: review of current proposals for the tracker=20 protocol. Technical discussion on how to progress the proposals to=20 come to a WG item for the tracker protocol. WebEx details for this meeting will be posted to the PPPS mailing list=20 (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/maillist.html). _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Sep 12 19:53:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F8721F8C2B; Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.859 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.859 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.314, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id owpWSNMpEaEK; Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE3121F8C29; Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481C62E28F6; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:55:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33AB02E2CFD; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:55:49 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.6]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011091310554599-4880 ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:55:45 +0800 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:54:46 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/" , "ext IESG Secretary" , "IETF Announcement list" References: <20110908214521.6683821F8B46@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <201109131054463046951@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-13 10:55:46, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-13 10:55:48, Serialize complete at 2011-09-13 10:55:48 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon658638560882_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18382.004 X-TM-AS-Result: No--32.654-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--32.654-7.0-31-10;No--32.654-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 02:53:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon658638560882_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGkgQ2hyaXN0aWFuLA0KICAgIFRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHJlbWluZGluZy4gSSBjaGVja2VkIHRo ZSB0aW1lLiBJdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgcmlnaHQgdGhhdCBVVEMgMTJwbSBpcyBzYW1lIHNhIENFU1Qg MnBtLiBUaGlzIHRpbWUgaXMgb2theSB0byBhbGxvdyBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW9uIHRvIGV2ZXJ5Ym9k eSBmcm9tIEFzaWEsIEV1cm9wZSBhbmQgVVMgYXMgZm9sbG93czoNCiAgICAgIFVUQzoxMjowMA0K ICAgICBCZWlqaW5nOiAyMDowMA0KICAgICBCZXJsaW46IDE0OjAwDQogICAgIEVEVDowODowMA0K DQpCUg0KWXVuZmVpDQoNCg0KDQoNCnpoYW5neXVuZmVpDQoyMDExLTA5LTEzDQoNCg0KDQq3orz+ yMujuiBTY2htaWR0LCBDaHJpc3RpYW4gMS4gKE5TTiAtIERFL011bmljaCkNCreiy83Ksbzko7og MjAxMS0wOS0wOSAxNDoyODo0Ng0KytW8/sjLo7ogZXh0IElFU0cgU2VjcmV0YXJ5OyBJRVRGIEFu bm91bmNlbWVudCBsaXN0DQqzrcvNo7ogcHBzcEBpZXRmLm9yZw0K1vfM4qO6IFJlOiBbcHBzcF0g 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Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcHBzcDwvRElWPg0KPERJVj5fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXzwvRElWPg0KPERJVj5wcHNw ICZuYnNwO21haWxpbmcgJm5ic3A7bGlzdDwvRElWPg0KPERJVj5wcHNwQGlldGYub3JnPC9ESVY+ DQo8RElWPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcHBzcDwvRElWPjwv Rk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon658638560882_=====-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Tue Sep 13 07:32:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077C521F86F6 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.282 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.282 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.787, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, MANGLED_LIST=2.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id glLVPJQpl110 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007BB21F8804 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F75F2800031E; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:34:00 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g8v-CvvDstzM; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:34:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E67280001AA; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:33:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:33:45 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)" , zhangyunfei , "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 Thread-Index: AQHMZkOiDMy/BPlOgkqQRsEANytWQZU4H83zgAhh1RCAAQ97EIAJ5nWQ Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:33:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> <201109011508590279274@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF90D2ADAPHNISofficehd_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:32:01 -0000 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Hi Christian,<= /span>

 <= /p>

The merger looks good to = me.

 <= /p>

I would just change this = little part:

OLD:

Malicious peers may<= /o:p>

 <= /p>

NEW:

Malicious peers may, for = example:

 <= /p>

  Martin<= /span>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich) [m= ailto:christian.1.schmidt@nsn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 10:14 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statem= ent-03

 =

Hi Martin,

 <= /p>

I am not in favor of repl= acing the existing text. I would like to see some kind of a merger.

What about the following = proposal?

 <= /p>

Br

Christian

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

6. Security Consideration= s

 

This memo discusses the p= roblem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protocols without specifyi= ng the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP working group. =

 <= /p>

This document is neither = a requirement document nor a protocol specification. But we believe it is i= mportant for the reader to understand areas of security caused by the p2p nature of the proposed solution. Main issue is the usage= of untrusted entities (peers) for service provisioning.<= /p>

 <= /p>

Malicious peers may<= /o:p>

- = ;         Issue denial of s= ervice attacks to the trackers by sending large amount of requests with the= tracker protocol

- = ;         May fake informat= ion on behalf of other peers

- = ;         May fake informat= ion about available content

- = ;         May fake informat= ion about chunk availability

Malicious peers/trackers = may

- = ;         May reply instead= of the regular tracker (man in the middle attack)

 =

The PPSP protocol specifi= cations, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will document th= e expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combinin= g both protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users,= protection of the content distribution, but not protection of the content = by Digital Rights Management (DRM).

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: ext Martin Stiemerling [mailto:Martin.Sti= emerling@neclab.eu]
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:12 PM
To: zhangyunfei; Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich); ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: RE: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statem= ent-03

 =

Short answer: Do you refe= r to add my text proposal to the existing text or to replace the existing t= ext?

 <= /p>

I would replace it, as so= me threats, but not all,  are outlined, but without a solution, as thi= s draft cannot give a detailed solution.

 <= /p>

  Martin<= /span>

 <= /p>

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei= @chinamobile.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 9:09 AM
To: Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/; Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statem= ent-03

 =

Hi Christian and Martin,

   Thanks for the comments. From my point of vi= ew, the general descrption of the security threat and points to possible so= lutions is important for readers to understand the whole picture. So it = would be great if the draft can add what Martin proposed based on= our previous version. How do you think about this, Martin?=

BR

Yunfei

 

zhangyunfei

2011-09-01

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Schmidt, Christian 1. (NSN - DE/Munich)

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-29 20:03:05=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ext zhangyunfei; Martin Stieme= rling; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement-03

 

Hi Martin, Yunfei,= <= o:p>

&n= bsp;

In PPSP overview we have = just a hint to the problem statement ID.:<= /p>

In PPSP requirements we h= ave just a summary of security related requirements.<= o:p>

But I did not found an ID= describing security threats / problems due to the usage of p2p technology = for streaming.

I think we need such a ge= neral description and the problem statement ID seems to be the best place f= or it.

&n= bsp;

The actual version covers= security problem description and points towards possible solutions (it is = not a solution description).

The responsibility for pr= oper method selection should be done in the related protocol descriptions (= tracker / peer).

&n= bsp;

What do you think about t= his proposal?

&n= bsp;

Best Regards

Christian

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

6. Security Considerations

 

   PPSP will not attempt to provide a solutio= n on security and copyright

   issues like malicious content distribution= , content pollution and DRM

   for a general P2P streaming system. Instea= d PPSP security involves

   the security problems related to PPSP prot= ocols. The protocol

   documents will contain a complete descript= ion on the security/privacy

   issues relevant to any usage of PPSP.

 

6.1. Tracker Protocol

 

   Malicious peers may issue denial of servic= e attack to the trackers by

   sending large amount of requests with trac= ker protocol. Distributed

   trackers deployment may alleviate the prob= lem. For protection against

   denial of service attacks, standard securi= ty methods can be used.

 

   Malicious peers may report fake informatio= n on behalf of other peers.

   This can be avoided with peer authenticati= on.

 

   Malicious peers may report fake informatio= n about available content.

   For this purpose, malicious peers can be r= eported to the tracker.

 

   Malicious tracker, especially distributed = version, can be very

   harmful.

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply ins= tead of the regular tracker

   (man in the middle attack). To avoid this = tracker authentication=

   could be used.<= /ns0:p>

 

   The malicious acting tracker may reply the= peers with fake peer-list.

   Peers may find they cannot find desired da= ta with the fake peer-list.

 

6.2. Peer Protocol

 

   Similar to the behavior in the tracker-pee= r interaction, malicious

   peers may also create fake information on = chunk availability and=

   exchange it with other peers. Some techniq= ues to check the data<= /p>

   integrity (e.g., using checksum) may be us= eful for detecting the=

   attack.=

&n= bsp;

6.3. Solution for Securit= y Threats / Problems.

    &= nbsp;   The PPSP protocol specifications, e.g., the peer protocol= and the tracker protocol, will

    &= nbsp;   Choose and document adequate methods to solve this s= ecurity issues in a proper way.

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext zhangyunfei
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:32 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

&nbs= p;

Hi Martin,

   Thanks so much for the proposoal. Let me make sur= e your meaning: Do you mean we'd better have a very high-level description on the PPSP secuirty threats and possible solutions, instead of having a d= etailed description on the peer and tracker protocol security issues, right= ?

   

BR

Yunfei

 <= /o:p>

zhangyunfei

2011-08-23

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-22 20:41:53=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA zhangyunfei; ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA RE: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-= ppsp-problem-statement-03

 <= /o:p>

Hi Yunfei,

 

Here is the text proposal= for the security section. It is fairly short but should suffice the consid= erations for the problem statement. I have included the =A1=B0protection of the content distribution=A1=B1 to the scope; this is i= ncluded in the current text. However, it will be necessary to document what= the threat to the content distribution is, e.g., to not forward chunks or = exchange chunks with bogus data; and also to document mitigations to this (hashes, hash tress, etc). <= /ns0:p>

 

Here you go:

 

6. Security Consideration= s

 

This memo discusses the p= roblem statement around a peer-to-peer streaming protocols without specifyi= ng the protocols. The protocol specification is deferred to other memos under development in the PPSP working group.<= /ns0:p>

 

The PPSP protocol specifi= cations, e.g., the peer protocol and the tracker protocol, will document th= e expected threats and how they will be mitigated for each protocol, but also considerations on threats and mitigations when combinin= g both protocols in an application. This will include privacy of the users,= protection of the content distribution, but not protection of the content = by Digital Rights Management (DRM).

 

  Martin

 

From: zhangyunfei [mailto:zhangyunfei= @chinamobile.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Martin Stiemerling; ppsp@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-= 03

 

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the careful review. Please see inline for the reply= .

BR

Yunfei

 <= /o:p>

zhangyunfei

2011-08-16

=B7=A2=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Martin Stiemerling

=B7=A2=CB= =CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-08-15 21:06:14=

=CA=D5=BC= =FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB= =CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC= =E2=A3=BA [ppsp] WGLC comments draft-ietf-ppsp= -problem-statement-03

 <= /o:p>

[Writing  not  as  WG  chair,  but  as &nbs= p;individual  contributor]

 

Dear  all,

 

I  have  reviewed  the  draft  draft-ietf-ppsp-p= roblem-statement-03  and  did  mainly  find  edito= rial  issues.  

 

Non-Editorials:

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  "  =  With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect  = P2P  streaming  applications  much    easier  = ;without  needing  to  update  its  library.";  It  might=  not  be  completely    obvious  to  an=  average  reader  why  a  standarizded  P2P =  protocol  would  make  things  easier  here.=  How  about  adding  at  the  end  of &= nbsp;this  sentence:  ",  as  there  is  = ;only  a  single  protocol  to  be  detected  and  not  = a  potentially  unknown  set  of  proprietary &nbs= p;P2P  protocols".  

 

[Yunfei]Good proposal!

-  Section  3.2,  1st  paragraph,  1st  sen= tence.  I  cannot  see  the  relationship  be= tween  the  section's  intended  scope  and  = DONA  or  any  other  content  centric  networkin= g.  

[Yunfei] Acutally it wants to explain the phenomenon that stre= am content(including using P2P)will account a lot in future network is a trend. But maybe we can replace the trend by actual figures(e= .g, in section1, cisco figures)to avoid the misleading sentence.

-  Section  3.2,  3rd  paragraph,  You  los= t  me  with  the  everything  after  the &nbs= p;first  sentence  of  this  paragraph.  I  d= on't  understand  what  it  is  saying  or  = what  it  should  be  saying.  

[Yunfei] The sentence is saying that PPSP reduces the complexi= ty of the case by case adaptation between CDN and the CP.Maybe I can rewrite this part.

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  The  fir= st  sentence  about  "mobility  and  wireless=  are  becoming  increasingly  dominate  " &n= bsp;is  basically  reflecting  the  current  situation, =  but  what  is  the  relationship  to  t= he  future  Internet  activities  mentioned  there= ?  The  mobile  and  wireless  part  is  = ;already  sort  of  dominant  by  today.

[Yunfei] Good question. Similar to  section 3.1, rep= lace "trend" by "fact".

-  Section  3.4,  2nd  paragraph:  I  know =  what  this  paragraph  is  aiming  at,  = ;i.e.,  reusing  the  same  library  and  pot= entially  other  optimizations.  But  it  would  be &= nbsp;better  to  rephrase  the  paragraph.  E.g., =  "PPSP  can  help  to  reduce  the  = ;resource  consumption  on  resource  constraint  = devices,  such  as  STBs  or  mobile  phones,=  by  reusing  a  PPSP  base  library  and  ..."

[Yunfei] Fine for the change.=

 

-  Security  section:  

I'm  not  sure  that  the  current  securit= y  section  is  exactly  what  we  need  = ;for  the  problem  statement.  It  is  on &n= bsp;one  hand  detailed  on  the  threat  description  (e.= g.,  "peers  may  report  fake  information &= nbsp;about  available  content"),  but  on  t= he  other  side  lacks  the  description  of =  countermeasures  to  those  threats.  

I  would  propose  to  rewrite  the  securi= ty  section  to  cover  a  broader  focus &nb= sp;on  highlighting  certain  threats,  but  letti= ng  the  fix  to  those  to  the  particul= ar  protocol  specifications,  i.e.,  the  peer &n= bsp;protocol  and  the  tracker  protocol.

 

I  can  provide  some  initial  text,  if &= nbsp;there  is  an  agreement  to  replace  t= he  security  section.  

[Yunfei] Thanks and would be glad to see your detailed text on= broadening the section. And would ask Christian for more comments.

 

Editorials  (mainly  suggestions  to  improve  r= eadability):

-  General:  There  are  many  places  wher= e  the  dots  are  misplaced,  e.g.,  in

 -  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  " &n= bsp;paradigm  [Survey].The".  This  should  read &= nbsp;"paradigm  [Survey].  The"  (space  betw= een  dot  and  The)

-  Which  Internet  draft  template  is  be= ing  used  for  this  draft?  The  new  = templates  have  the  "Abstract"    befo= re  the  part  on  "  Status  of  this  Memo" &n= bsp;and  "  Copyright  Notice".  

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  comma  mis= sing,  replace  "like  CNN  [CNN]  PPstream&q= uot;  with  "like  CNN  [CNN],  PPstream"= ;

-  Section  1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Client-Server"  with  "client-server".  = The  spelling  of  this  is  not  consistent =  in  the  draft.

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;Almost  all  these  systems"  with  &quo= t;  Almost  all  of  these  systems".<= ns0:p>

-  Section  1,  4th  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;P2P  streaming,  the  open  protocols  will &= nbsp;dynamically  reduce    "  with  "P2= P  streaming,  open  protocols  may  reduce  "

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "PPSP",  replace  "The  abbreviation  of=  P2P  streaming  protocols"  with  "The=  abbreviation  of  Peer-to-Peer  Streaming  Protocols"

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "list  of  peers &n= bsp;storing  chunks  for  a  specific  channel &nb= sp;or  streaming  file"  with  "list  of  peers  wh= ich  participate  in  a  specific  video  cha= nnel  or  in  the  distribution  of  a  = streaming  file".  

-  Section  2,  paragraph  starting  with  = "Tracker",  replace  "from  peers  for &= nbsp;peer  lists"  with  "from  peers  w= ith  a  list  of  candidate  peers".

-  Section  3,  1st  paragraph,  replace  &= quot;The  problems  brought  by  proprietary" &nbs= p;with  "The  problems  imposed  by  propriet= ary"

-  Section  3.1,  title  of  this  section,=  replace  "Difficulties  for  ISP  in  = deploying  P2P  caches"  with  "Difficulties =  for  ISPs  in  deploying  P2P  caches"

-  Section  3.1,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"P2P    cache  is  used  to  reduce &nb= sp;the"  with  "P2P  caches  are  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"  or  "P2P      caching  is  used &= nbsp;to  reduce  the"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"With  PPSP,  P2P  cache  can  detect" =  with  "With  PPSP,  a  P2P  cache  = ;can  detect"

-  Section  3.1,  2nd  paragraph,  the  las= t  sentence,  there  are  two  commas  betwee= n  "tracker/peer  protocol"  and  "which=  is  easier..."

-  Section  3.2,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Similar  to  the  cache  case,  this" =  with  "Similar  to  the  caching  case =  in  Section  3.1,  this"

-  Section  3.3,  1st  paragraph,  last  se= ntence,  the  dot  at  the  end  is  mis= sing.  

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  replace  "trackers  and  peers  need  = ;more  information"  with  "trackers  and &nb= sp;peers  may  need  more  information"

-  Section  3.3,  2nd  paragraph,  page  10= ,  there  is  terminology  collision,  as  se= rving  gateway  is  translated  to  GGSN.  A  change  of  a  SGSN  will  not  be &nb= sp;noticed  by  the  terminal.  Moving  to  a=  new  GGSN  might  be.  However,  moving &nb= sp;to  a  new  GGSN  might  be  experience &n= bsp;like  any  other  event  where  the  IP &= nbsp;address  changes.  

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"In  other  word"  with  "In  othe= r  words"

-  Section  3.4,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"multiple  programs  in  one  resource  cons= traint"  with  "multiple  programs  in  = a  resource  constraint"

-  Section  4,  1st  paragraph:  replace  f= ull  1st  paragraph  with

"The  objective  of  the  PPSP  working &nb= sp;group  is  to  design  a  unified  peer- &= nbsp;to-peer  streaming  protocol  (PPSP)  to  add= ress  the  problems  discussed  in  the  precedin= g  sections."

-  Section  4,  3rd  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;and  then  retrieve  for  wanted  streaming&q= uot;  with  "and  then  retrieve  the  w= anted  streaming"

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;  topology  e.g.,  a  tree."  With  = ;"  topology,  e.g.,  a  tree."=

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;(maybe  with  recommended  order)"  with &nbs= p;"(potentially  in  a  recommended  order)"<= /span>

-  Section  4,  4th  paragraph:  replace  &= quot;Few  practical  systems"  with  "Few &nb= sp;commercially  deployed"

-  Section  4,  5th  paragraph:  what  is &= nbsp;"unfounded  data"?

-  Section  4,  6th  paragraph:  move  this=  paragraph  to  page  12  before  paragraph =  starting  with  "In  detail,"<= /ns0:p>

-  Section  4,  last  paragraph,  page  12:=  I'm  not  sure  that  we  still  need =  this  paragraph.  Can  we  remove  it?

-  Section  5,  1st  paragraph,  there  is =  a  leftover:  "   <Text  for  this &= nbsp;section >".

-  Section  5.2,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"Also  it  can  also  talk"  with  = ;"It  can  also  communicate"

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"  With  PPSP  Peers  can  identify  th= e  types  of  access  networks,  their  load/= congestion  information"  with  "  With  PPSP, &nb= sp;peers  may  be  able  to  identify  the &n= bsp;type  of  access  networks,  average  load&quo= t;.  Do  not  include  congestion  information, &n= bsp;as  this  information  is  anyhow  too  v= olatile  to  be  tracked  by  some  entity &n= bsp;of  the  peer  network,  other  than  the  = ;peers  which  are  anyhow  directly  communicatin= g  with  each  other.

-  Section  5.3,  2nd  paragraph,  replace  = ;"be  selected,  which  will  lead  to" =  with  "be  selected,  which  may  lead =  to"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"section3"  with  "Section  3"

-  Section  5.5,  1st  paragraph,  replace  = ;"nodes  in  the  network"  with  "= nodes  at  the  network"

-  Reference  section:  This  section  does &nbs= p;not  follow  the  style  of  references  as=  used  in  the  RFC  series  and  needs=  to  be  updated.

 

[Yunfei]I'll update these editorial issues in new version draf= t.

 

Kind  regards

 

   Martin

 

 

NEC  Laboratories  Europe  -  Network  Research =  Division  NEC  Europe  Limited  |  Registere= d  Office:  NEC  House,  1  Victoria  Road,  London  W3  6BL  |  Registered  in  En= gland  2832014  

 

 

_______________________________________________

ppsp  mailing  list

ppsp@ietf.org<= o:p>

--_000_E84E7B8FF3F2314DA16E48EC89AB49F01CF90D2ADAPHNISofficehd_-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Tue Sep 13 07:34:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3C321F8B0C for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:34:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.725, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1+jF6QMNlq29 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9A721F8B0F for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974852800031E for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:36:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jA7x-Ade2Lfy for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:36:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C88C280001AA for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:36:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:36:30 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 starting today until September 5th Thread-Index: AcxgzA4tSkXKRGhvQ2GJIv5Jaqjv0wRViuBg Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:36:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 starting today until September 5th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:34:55 -0000 Hi all, I have not seen any response to the WGLC of the requirements draft.=20 Does this mean that there is lack of community support for this draft or is= it just fine as it is? I propose to extend the WGLC to September 20th 8pm PDT.=20 Please review the draft and give your feedback to the PPSP list. The feedba= ck may just indicate that the draft is fine to go forward.=20 Thanks, Martin > -----Original Message----- > From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Martin Stiemerling > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 3:07 PM > To: ppsp@ietf.org > Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 starting today until Sep= tember > 5th >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp-req= s- > 03.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#81 meeting. >=20 > Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any type= of > review is appreciated, even if it is saying only "I have read the draft a= nd it is > ok". > However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members > (which is YOU!). >=20 > The WGLC starts right now and will end September, 5th 6 pm PDT. >=20 > The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 >=20 > Martin >=20 >=20 > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu >=20 > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | > Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered= in > England 2832014 _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From victor.pascual.avila@gmail.com Tue Sep 13 12:56:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5435711E80F7 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:56:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.411 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.411 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wX59qBG6cAOl for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com (mail-gy0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BAE11E80E2 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gyd12 with SMTP id 12so873573gyd.31 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:58:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y0KCboZE5AZh2R4y4u8F/mUJVORdJqhcAOrUSGzlvzc=; b=W9XMGsVGjCXi6/g7lMJD5ADVNblKc3eczrnmOhdW9myVbbPX0tDY7ICRFzYeOLIbrZ aljmFaFTYXM7PdzNvw7LUcvfpRFFysjDwVqD0URNGP5u0Q6ScoylW26niQf87qtI+ugU 3B6itLAUPec263xvETz9d6FVP/e0vs3g9R7o4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.81.211 with SMTP id y19mr3440151ibk.70.1315943899340; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.19.73 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:58:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:58:19 +0200 Message-ID: From: Victor Pascual Avila To: Martin Stiemerling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 starting today until September 5th X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:56:13 -0000 I think the original link was pointing to the problem statement draft. Here's a new one: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 -Victor On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Martin Stiemerling wrote: > Hi all, > > I have not seen any response to the WGLC of the requirements draft. > > Does this mean that there is lack of community support for this draft or = is it just fine as it is? > > I propose to extend the WGLC to September 20th 8pm PDT. > > Please review the draft and give your feedback to the PPSP list. The feed= back may just indicate that the draft is fine to go forward. > > Thanks, > > =C2=A0Martin > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Martin Stiemerling >> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 3:07 PM >> To: ppsp@ietf.org >> Subject: [ppsp] WGLC for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-03 starting today until Se= ptember >> 5th >> >> Dear all, >> >> We start a 2 weeks Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-ppsp-re= qs- >> 03.txt, as agreed during the PPSP session at the IETF#81 meeting. >> >> Please review the draft and send your comments to the PPSP list. Any typ= e of >> review is appreciated, even if it is saying only "I have read the draft = and it is >> ok". >> However, a thorough review is required by a number of PPSP WG members >> (which is YOU!). >> >> The WGLC starts right now and will end September, 5th 6 pm PDT. >> >> The draft is accessible in text, pdf, or html from this URL >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-03 >> >> =C2=A0 Martin >> >> >> martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu >> >> NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | >> Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registere= d in >> England 2832014 _______________________________________________ >> ppsp mailing list >> ppsp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > --=20 Victor Pascual =C3=81vila From internet-drafts@ietf.org Wed Sep 14 02:37:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F99E21F8BEC; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:37:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hxWalPM97ou4; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31AEE21F8B6D; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:37:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.60 Message-ID: <20110914093739.32757.86531.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:37:39 -0700 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:38:57 -0700 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:37:39 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol Worki= ng Group of the IETF. Title : Problem Statement of P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP) Author(s) : Yunfei Zhang Ning Zong Gonzalo Camarillo Richard Yang Filename : draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-04.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2011-09-14 P2P streaming systems show more and more popularity in current Internet with proprietary protocols. This document identifies problems of the proprietary protocols, proposes standard signaling protocols called PPSP and discusses the scope and use cases of PPSP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-04.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-04.txt From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Sep 14 02:43:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937BF21F8C50 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.78 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.78 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.211, BAYES_40=-0.185, MISSING_SUBJECT=1.762, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_RMML_Stock1=0.21, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cd6EoOJviT2M for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CCA21F8C4D for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B191660F; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:45:11 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9586221317; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:45:08 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.104]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011091417450568-17113 ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:45:05 +0800 Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:45:05 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <201108161556008185916@chinamobile.com> <201108231032130037515@chinamobile.com> <201109011508590279274@chinamobile.com> X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-14 17:45:05, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-14 17:45:08, Serialize complete at 2011-09-14 17:45:08 Message-ID: X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18384.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No-3.414-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No-3.414-7.0-31-10;No-3.414-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: [ppsp] (no subject) X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:43:12 -0000 Subject: PPSP PS draft updated Message-ID: <201109141745045336955@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon040346388155_=====" This is a multi-part message in MIME 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SVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9ESVY+PC9GT05U PjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= --=====003_Dragon040346388155_=====-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Sep 14 02:47:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9487521F8C5D for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:47:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.681 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.681 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.095, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0QT-Q+bf5Zh5 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF86321F8C5A for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 02:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335D1213E2; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:49:34 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A77213DC; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:49:34 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.104]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011091417493237-17230 ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:49:32 +0800 Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:49:31 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-ID: <201109141749316173262@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-14 17:49:32, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-14 17:49:33, Serialize complete at 2011-09-14 17:49:33 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon576054031430_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18384.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--8.933-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--8.933-7.0-31-10;No--8.933-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: [ppsp] PPSP problem statement draft updated X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 09:47:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon576054031430_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Hi folks, We've updated the latest version PS draft, which is available at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-04.txt. This version has replied all of the suggestions and comments in the mailing list. Thanks for all of the reviewers. Any further comments and suggestions are highly appreciated. BR Yunfei zhangyunfei 2011-09-14 --=====003_Dragon576054031430_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Hi folks,
   We've updated the latest version PS draft, which is available at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-04.txt. This version has replied all of the suggestions and comments in the mailing list. Thanks for all of the reviewers. Any further comments and suggestions are highly appreciated.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2011-09-14
 --=====003_Dragon576054031430_=====-- From peer2peer@gmail.com Wed Sep 14 10:14:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020EE21F8CA3 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:14:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.193 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.193 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.406, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vvoKReBEe2F4 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f46.google.com (mail-pz0-f46.google.com [209.85.210.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 781EF21F8C2A for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk32 with SMTP id 32so4102979pzk.19 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nt7u5jVvmIwMU/Xqa73Yh0MbRttymv/LkUXIz1upyLw=; b=uT1d+ShXqOumBtq+VZokTs+jPu+IFIMEe6TbrVmGNFJIILg+Yz40ftxANZKei/AYYv rpvTIgUDE9pe6etFFv7Hxre0LizU4YIM1g9Vo+ca4hZGzwBJj8H47AwF0EEMpXOlnVnb B9PJaKnV6zf1/Mt0dFXuvFEeqil0ZT1v83Urc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.26.2 with SMTP id h2mr325941pbg.228.1316020603894; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.33.17 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:16:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110908214521.6683821F8B46@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20110908214521.6683821F8B46@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:16:43 +0200 Message-ID: From: Johan Pouwelse To: ppsp@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:14:35 -0000 > =A0Technical discussion on how to progress the proposals to come to a WG > =A0item for the peer protocol. We could organize a streaming trial to compare proposed solutions. The P2P-Next project is willing to obtain content, testing audience and general organisation for conducting a public open trial. Any Internet user can be a participant in these trials. Participants in the trial would download a .exe file, .dmg Android app or Apple app store. The only functionality the trial software offers is start streaming the trial content movie upon startup. The trial software would bundle all PPSP proposed solutions which have an implementation. The trial software would stream a single trial video to the user, using a randomly selected implementation. All test results and performance results will be made public. Possible timeline for trial is nov / dec 2011. Is this an idea suitable for discussion? -j On 8 September 2011 23:45, IESG Secretary wrote: > The PPSP working group will hold a virtual interim meeting, with WebEx > support, as follows: > > Date: September 28th, 2011. > Time: 2pm CEST (12pm UTC) > Duration: 2.0 HOURS > > The virtual interim meeting will be used to discuss these main topics: > - PPSP peer protocol: review of current proposals for the peer protocol. > =A0Technical discussion on how to progress the proposals to come to a WG > =A0item for the peer protocol. > - Tracker protocol: review of current proposals for the tracker > =A0protocol. Technical discussion on how to progress the proposals to > =A0come to a WG item for the tracker protocol. > > WebEx details for this meeting will be posted to the PPPS mailing list > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/maillist.html). > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Sep 14 19:09:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B045121F86A0 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:09:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.255, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eOC0Jnq+m376 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7954821F869E for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4744654A0; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:11:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CDBA65473; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:11:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011091510111399-3450 ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:11:13 +0800 Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:11:10 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Johan Pouwelse" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <20110908214521.6683821F8B46@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <201109151011047783552@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-15 10:11:22, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-15 10:11:24, Serialize complete at 2011-09-15 10:11:24 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon322250625031_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18386.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--27.598-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--27.598-7.0-31-10;No--27.598-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 02:09:19 -0000 This is a 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21:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MfCLGKakN3Rf for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vm-emlprdomr-03.its.yale.edu (vm-emlprdomr-03.its.yale.edu [130.132.50.144]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A22211E8086 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-128-36-169-17.central.yale.edu (dhcp-128-36-169-17.central.yale.edu [128.36.169.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-03.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p8G49c6m024136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 16 Sep 2011 00:09:38 -0400 Message-ID: <4E72CC02.400@cs.yale.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 00:09:38 -0400 From: "Y. Richard Yang" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ppsp@ietf.org, yale_lans@groups.l.google.com References: <20110908214521.6683821F8B46@ietfa.amsl.com> <201109151011047783552@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <201109151011047783552@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070306070602070605010008" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.144 Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 04:07:34 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070306070602070605010008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Johan, I would second the opinions of Yunfei. It could be interesting and a good exercise to push the ppsp forward. A main question is on the purpose and the organization of the test, as Yunfei suggested. Here are some quick questions coming to my mind: - What "standards" should each participating implementation conform to? - What data should be collected to make meaningful evaluations? - Do we envision a live and/or VoD setting? - What parameters should be controlled (e.g., client arrival patterns, churns, uplink, downlink, networks with shared bottlenecks)? - Since there are academic testbeds available, does it make sense to use one of these, instead of real users, for repeatability and analysis? Richard On 9/14/11 10:11 PM, zhangyunfei wrote: > Hi Johan, > This sound a cool idea.I like it:) Two things are suggested: > 1)It's better to orgnize a core test team in PPSP community to cover > the worldwide network and ensure the amount of the audience. A loose > orginzation may not realize our targeted number of testers. > 2)To make sure the test reflects the PPSP protocol progress, it's > better to check the conformity betwwen the trial program protocol and > PPSP. > Thanks. > BR > Yunfei > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > zhangyunfei > 2011-09-15 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *???:* Johan Pouwelse > *????:* 2011-09-15 01:16:46 > *???:* ppsp@ietf.org > *??:* > *??:* Re: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011 > > ?echnical discussion on how to progress the proposals to > come to a WG > > ?tem for the peer protocol. > We could organize a streaming trial to compare proposed > solutions. > The P2P-Next project is willing to obtain content, testing > audience > and general organisation > for conducting a public open trial. Any Internet user can be a > participant in these trials. > Participants in the trial would download a .exe file, .dmg > Android app > or Apple app store. > The only functionality the trial software offers is start > streaming > the trial content movie upon startup. > The trial software would bundle all PPSP proposed solutions > which have > an implementation. > The trial software would stream a single trial video to the > user, > using a randomly selected implementation. > All test results and performance results will be made public. > Possible > timeline for trial is nov / dec 2011. > Is this an idea suitable for discussion? > -j > On 8 September 2011 23:45, IESG Secretary > wrote: > > The PPSP working group will hold a virtual interim > meeting, with WebEx > > support, as follows: > > > > Date: September 28th, 2011. > > Time: 2pm CEST (12pm UTC) > > Duration: 2.0 HOURS > > > > The virtual interim meeting will be used to discuss these > main topics: > > - PPSP peer protocol: review of current proposals for the > peer protocol. > > ?echnical discussion on how to progress the proposals to > come to a WG > > ?tem for the peer protocol. > > - Tracker protocol: review of current proposals for the > tracker > > ?rotocol. Technical discussion on how to progress the > proposals to > > ?ome to a WG item for the tracker protocol. > > > > WebEx details for this meeting will be posted to the PPPS > mailing list > > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ppsp/current/maillist.html) > . > > _______________________________________________ > > ppsp mailing list > > ppsp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --------------070306070602070605010008 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Johan,

I would second the opinions of Yunfei. It could be interesting and a good exercise to push the ppsp forward. A main question is on the purpose and the organization of the test, as Yunfei suggested. Here are some quick questions coming to my mind:

- What "standards" should each participating implementation conform to?

- What data should be collected to make meaningful evaluations?

- Do we envision a live and/or VoD setting?

- What parameters should be controlled (e.g., client arrival patterns, churns, uplink, downlink, networks with shared bottlenecks)?

- Since there are academic testbeds available, does it make sense to use one of these, instead of real users, for repeatability and analysis?

Richard

On 9/14/11 10:11 PM, zhangyunfei wrote:
Hi Johan,
   This sound a cool idea.I like it:) Two things are suggested:
1)It's better to orgnize a core test team in PPSP community to cover the worldwide network and ensure the amount of the audience. A loose orginzation may not realize our targeted number of testers.
2)To make sure the test reflects the PPSP protocol progress, it's better to check the conformity betwwen the trial program protocol and PPSP.
 
Thanks.
 
BR
Yunfei
 
zhangyunfei
2011-09-15
发件人： Johan Pouwelse
发送时间： 2011-09-15 01:16:46
收件人： ppsp@ietf.org
抄送：
主题： Re: [ppsp] PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting Sept 28th, 2011
 
>  燭echnical  discussion  on  how  to  progress  the  proposals  to  come  to  a  WG
>  爄tem  for  the  peer  protocol.
 
We  could  organize  a  streaming  trial  to  compare  proposed  solutions.
 
The  P2P-Next  project  is  willing  to  obtain  content,  testing  audience
and  general  organisation
for  conducting  a  public  open  trial.  Any  Internet  user  can  be  a
participant  in  these  trials.
Participants  in  the  trial  would  download  a  .exe  file,  .dmg  Android  app
or  Apple  app  store.
The  only  functionality  the  trial  software  offers  is  start  streaming
the  trial  content  movie  upon  startup.
The  trial  software  would  bundle  all  PPSP  proposed  solutions  which  have
an  implementation.
The  trial  software  would  stream  a  single  trial  video  to  the  user,
using  a  randomly  selected  implementation.
All  test  results  and  performance  results  will  be  made  public.  Possible
timeline  for  trial  is  nov  /  dec  2011.
 
Is  this  an  idea  suitable  for  discussion?
 
   -j
 
On  8  September  2011  23:45,  IESG  Secretary   <iesg-secretary@ietf.org >  wrote:
>  The  PPSP  working  group  will  hold  a  virtual  interim  meeting,  with  WebEx
>  support,  as  follows:
>
>  Date:  September  28th,  2011.
>  Time:  2pm  CEST  (12pm  UTC)
>  Duration:  2.0  HOURS
>
>  The  virtual  interim  meeting  will  be  used  to  discuss  these  main  topics:
>  -  PPSP  peer  protocol:  review  of  current  proposals  for  the  peer  protocol.
>  燭echnical  discussion  on  how  to  progress  the  proposals  to  come  to  a  WG
>  爄tem  for  the  peer  protocol.
>  -  Tracker  protocol:  review  of  current  proposals  for  the  tracker
>  爌rotocol.  Technical  discussion  on  how  to  progress  the  proposals  to
>  燾ome  to  a  WG  item  for  the  tracker  protocol.
>
>  WebEx  details  for  this  meeting  will  be  posted  to  the  PPPS  mailing  list
>  _______________________________________________
>  ppsp  mailing  list
>
_______________________________________________
ppsp  mailing  list


_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp

--------------070306070602070605010008-- From a.bakker@vu.nl Mon Sep 19 06:50:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A094121F8BDC for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 06:50:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.558, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cBgdqP3BvpiO for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 06:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A022521F8BD5 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 06:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011B.vu.local (130.37.236.65) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:53:10 +0200 Received: from [130.161.211.249] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:53:08 +0200 Message-ID: <4E774973.4030904@cs.vu.nl> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:53:55 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110812 Thunderbird/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ning Zong References: <4E3A48FD.3060302@cs.vu.nl> <003701cc5596$d4c18750$7e4495f0$@com> In-Reply-To: <003701cc5596$d4c18750$7e4495f0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIENvbW1lbnRzIG9uIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcHBz?= =?gb2312?b?cC1yZXFzLTAz?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:50:51 -0000 Hi all if Ning Zong can incorporate the previous comments as promised, and respond to the ones below (inline), I'm fine with the draft. On 08/08/2011 08:45, Ning Zong wrote: > > * PPSP.PP.REQ-1+2+4: I propose to allow more explicitly for a > push-based model, where peers advocate their own chunk availability > proactively, and state that the peer protocol MUST implement either > pull-based, push-based or both. > > [ZN]: We have paragraph on page 10 to describe the two modes of pull& push > information among peers. > And I don't think it is necessary to state these modes in a formal > requirement. > [AB]: Are you sure? I think we should make it explicit somewhere that you do not have to implement CHUNK AVAIL request (i.e., PP.REQ-1) if you are using a push-based model. > > * PPSP.PP.REQ-6: Is phrased ambiguously at present IMHO. When read as > "The peers MUST implement the peer protocol for chunk > [availability] requests and responses among the peers before the > streaming content is transmitted." it seems self-evident, one > cannot request a chunk if one doesn't know what chunks the requestee > has. Hence the requirement seems superfluous. > > [ZN] This is not about chunk availability, but requesting the chunk itself. > For example, peer A send this message to peer B to request a specific chunk, > as well as its streaming capability information. > This message is more like a session negotiation/description message (e.g. > RTSP, SIP, etc). > [AB] It's probably me, but I still don't get it ;-( > * PPSP.SEC.REQ-9: I propose to remove the part that requires > reporting receiving bad content to the tracker. Reporting to the > tracker would allow for false reporting by malicious peers and > arbitrating these reports is very complex. > > [ZN] Yunfei and Lingli Deng, what's your opinions on this? > [AB] Have you heard anything from them? Thanks, Arno From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Mon Sep 19 18:20:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8279021F8B0E for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 18:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.332, BAYES_50=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, SARE_URGBIZ=0.725, URG_BIZ=1.585, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RNJUTSCrm-g7 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 18:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D1521F8B03 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 18:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A6F32E2AEC; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:22:31 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0242E2AA3; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:22:31 +0800 (CST) To: ppsp@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:22:29 +0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Domino Web Server Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-20 09:22:31 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18396.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--24.020-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--24.020-7.0-31-10;No--24.020-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: [ppsp] WebEx User Name and Password for PPSP interim meeting X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 01:20:13 -0000 Hi all, The following is the WebEx information for the incoming PPSP interim me= eting. Looking forward to meeting with you in this meeting. =20 =20 BR Yunfei =20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- zhangyunfei 2011-09-20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA WebEx Customer Services =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-09-20 05:53:03 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp-chairs@tools.ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Important! Your User Name and Password =20 Dear Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol, =20 =20 Welcome to WebEx! Cisco Corporate Consulting Engineering - 02002219= 7 has created a WebEx host account for you. To enjoy the benefi= ts and convenience of Web-enabled, online meetings, follow these s= teps: =20 1. Go to http://ietf.webex.com. 2. On the top navigation bar, click "My WebEx.". 3. Log in using your user name, ppsp, and the password https://i= etf.webex.com/ietf/viewPassword.php?UID=3D9d1909584a54535059071402&Ticket= =3D8a60239668703836. =20 FREE TRAINING =20 The more you know, the more confident you will be. In as litt= le as 30 minutes you can be on your way to hosting successful = online meetings. To attend a free training session, go to http:= //university.webex.com. Enter your WebEx ID, ppsp, Password, and = WebEx URL, ietf.webex.com, to login to the registration page. =20 CUSTOMER SERVICES AND TECHNICAL SUPPORT =20 For technical issues, =20 1. Go to http://ietf.webex.com. 2. On the top navigation bar, click "My WebEx." 3. Log in using your user name and password. 4. On the left navigation bar, click "Support". =20 For general account or technical related questions, please visit o= ur online portal at http://support.webex.com or contact the WebEx = Corporate Support Team at 866-863-3903 or +1-916-851-8578. For ur= gent technical assistance, please call our Technical Support Team = at 866-229-3239 or +1-408-435-7088, 24 hours a day 7 days a week. =20 GET STARTED NOW! =20 Please take some time to become familiar with the WebEx services,= as follows: =20 1. Read the Support pages and Release Notes for the services tha= t you are interested in. To access these pages, under My WebEx, = click the "Support" link. =20 2. Review the online Help for the services on your site. To ope= n Help, in the top navigation bar, click the service you want, = then click "Assistance" on the navigation bar for the service, th= en click "Help." =20 3. Start an online meeting and practice using the features that = the online Help describes. =20 We are excited to have you as a new user and look forward to = working with you in the future. If you have any questions or co= ncerns, please feel free to contact us at your convenience. =20 =20 You are now ready to host your own online meetings! =20 =20 Regards, =20 WebEx Customer Services 866-863-3903 / +1-916-851-8578 http://support.webex.com = From zongning@huawei.com Mon Sep 19 18:54:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD9021F8AFD for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2011 18:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.324, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32ThOS9uhG68 for ; 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Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:44:04 +0200 Message-ID: <4E783664.2070208@cs.vu.nl> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:44:52 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110812 Thunderbird/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?GB2312?B?tcvB6cDyL2RlbmdsaW5nbGk=?= References: <4E3A48FD.3060302@cs.vu.nl> <003701cc5596$d4c18750$7e4495f0$@com> <4E774973.4030904@cs.vu.nl> <9142E2BAC0D741C1AF762C6E4D19116A@denglingli> In-Reply-To: <9142E2BAC0D741C1AF762C6E4D19116A@denglingli> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIENvbW1lbnRzIG9uIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcHBz?= =?gb2312?b?cC1yZXFzLTAz?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 06:41:44 -0000 Hi good. Looking forward to the new draft. Regards, Arno On 20/09/2011 04:54, µËÁéÀò/denglingli wrote: > Hi,Arno& Ning > > About REQ-9, we are OK with Arno's proposal. > >>> * PPSP.SEC.REQ-9: I propose to remove the part that requires >>> reporting receiving bad content to the tracker. Reporting to the >>> tracker would allow for false reporting by malicious peers and >>> arbitrating these reports is very complex. >>> > > > The modified version would look like this: > > PPSP.SEC.REQ-9: Integrity of the streaming content in PPSP MUST be > supported to provide a peer with the possibility to identify > inauthentic media content (undesirable modified by other entities > rather than its genuine source). The corresponding checksum > distribution and verification scheme SHOULD > scale well in P2P streaming system and be robust against distrustful > trackers/peers. > -- (faculty email system is being migrated, email address will remain arno@cs.vu.nl) From zongning@huawei.com Tue Sep 20 20:23:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734F521F8AFE for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.061 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.061 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.311, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UokRhouaufk2 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1CD21F8AF9 for ; Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LRU00F9YS6W7Q@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LRU0010DS6QTY@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AEB68603; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:44 +0800 Received: from SZXEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.137) by szxeml201-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:37 +0800 Received: from SZXEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.252]) by szxeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.137]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 11:25:40 +0800 Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 03:25:37 +0000 From: ZongNing X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.128] To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Pdg26uxfgaZtyW/l8sHfIQ)" Content-language: zh-CN Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Thread-topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt Thread-index: AQHMeAxcm2PslenvVEuEXFNx909JGpVXKYSw X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 03:23:45 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_Pdg26uxfgaZtyW/l8sHfIQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, Folks, A new revision of PPSP requirements has been submitted (see attached file draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt). The main modifications are: 1) incorporating the comments/suggestions from Johan, Arno, Lingli Deng. 2) updating reference items. Please review and give comments (even just saying "I am fine with the new version..."). Thanks. BR, Ning Zong -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 11:10 AM To: ZongNing Cc: lin.xiao@nsn.com; vpascual@acmepacket.com; zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com; carlw@mcsr-labs.org; ZongNing Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt has been successfully submitted by Ning Zong and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs Revision: 04 Title: P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP) Requirements Creation date: 2011-09-20 WG ID: ppsp Number of pages: 14 Abstract: The objective of the PPSP work is to standardize the key signaling protocols that apply to tracker and peers in a Peer-to-Peer (P2P) streaming system. These protocols are called PPSP. This document enumerates the requirements for the PPSP, which should be considered when designing PPSP. The IETF Secretariat --Boundary_(ID_Pdg26uxfgaZtyW/l8sHfIQ) Content-type: text/plain; name=draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt; size=27924; creation-date="Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:19:55 GMT"; modification-date="Wed, 21 Sep 2011 01:19:55 GMT" Content-description: draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt PPSP N. Zong, Ed. Internet-Draft Huawei Technologies Intended status: Informational Y. Zhang Expires: March 23, 2012 China Mobile Communication Corporation V. Pascual Acme Packet C. Williams Consultant L. Xiao Nokia Siemens Networks September 20, 2011 P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP) Requirements draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04 Abstract The objective of the PPSP work is to standardize the key signaling protocols that apply to tracker and peers in a Peer-to-Peer (P2P) streaming system. These protocols are called PPSP. This document enumerates the requirements for the PPSP, which should be considered when designing PPSP. Status of this Memo This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet- Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." This Internet-Draft will expire on March 23, 2012. Copyright Notice Copyright (c) 2011 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the document authors. All rights reserved. This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 1] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 Provisions Relating to IETF Documents (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of publication of this document. Please review these documents carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect to this document. Code Components extracted from this document must include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as described in the Simplified BSD License. This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF Contributions published or made publicly available before November 10, 2008. The person(s) controlling the copyright in some of this material may not have granted the IETF Trust the right to allow modifications of such material outside the IETF Standards Process. Without obtaining an adequate license from the person(s) controlling the copyright in such materials, this document may not be modified outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format it for publication as an RFC or to translate it into languages other than English. Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 2] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2. Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3. Overview of PPSP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4. PPSP Requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4.1. Basic Requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4.2. PPSP Tracker Protocol Requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4.3. PPSP Peer Protocol Requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 6. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 7. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 8. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 8.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 3] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 1. Introduction Peer to Peer (P2P) computing has been successfully used in many fields, from one-to-one communication like Voice over IP (VoIP) and Instance Messaging (IM), to one-to-many communication like streaming, file sharing and gaming. In the streaming area, the popularity of P2P real-time and video on demand (VoD) streaming technology has been demonstrated by PPLive [PPLive], PPStream [PPStream], UUSee [UUSee], Pando [Pando] etc. Take PPLive for example, it has over 5 million online users at the same time for real-time streaming. P2P streaming applications account for more and more Internet traffic. According to statistics in a major Chinese Internet Service Provider (ISP), the traffic generated by P2P streaming applications exceeded 50% of the total backbone traffic during peak time in 2008 [I-D.ietf-ppsp-problem-statement]. Given the increasing integration of P2P streaming into the global content delivery infrastructure, the lack of an open, standard P2P streaming protocol has become a major missing component in the Internet protocol stack. Multiple similar but proprietary P2P streaming protocols result in repetitious development efforts and lock-in effects. More importantly, it leads to substantial difficulties when integrating P2P streaming as a component of a global content delivery infrastructure. For example, proprietary P2P streaming protocols do not integrate well with infrastructure devices such as caches and other edge devices [I-D.ietf-ppsp-problem-statement]. The objective of the PPSP work is to standardize the key signaling protocols that apply to tracker and peers in a P2P streaming system. These protocols are called PPSP. PPSP will serve as an enabling technology, building on the development experiences of existing P2P streaming systems. Its design will allow it to integrate with IETF efforts on distributed resource location, traffic localization, and streaming control mechanisms. It allows effective integration with edge infrastructures such as cache and mobile edge equipment [I-D.ietf-ppsp-problem-statement]. This document enumerates the requirements for the PPSP, which should be considered when designing PPSP. 2. Terminology The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119] and indicate requirement levels for compliant implementations. Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 4] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 This document uses the following PPSP-related terms, which are defined in [I-D.ietf-ppsp-problem-statement], including: Chunk, Live streaming, Peer/PPSP peer, PPSP, Swarm, Tracker/PPSP tracker, Video-on-demand (VoD). Furthermore, the following additional terms will be used: Peer list: A list of peers which are in a same swarm maintained by the tracker. A peer can fetch the peer list of a swarm from either tracker or other peers to know which peers have the required streaming content. Peer ID: An identifier of a peer such that other peers or tracker can refer the ID for the peer. Swarm ID: An identifier of a swarm containing a group of peers sharing a same streaming content. Chunk ID: An identifier of a chunk in a streaming content. 3. Overview of PPSP As described in [I-D.ietf-ppsp-problem-statement], the following components are considered in the scope of PPSP: 1) Tracker communication. Tracker communication is a component that enables each peer to get peer list from the tracker and/or provide content availability to the tracker. 2) Peer communication. Peer communication is a component that enables each peer to exchange content availability and request content from other peers. 3) Report. Report is a component that enables peers to report streaming status to the tracker. The information may include swarm IDs to show swarms that the peer is taking active part in, chunk list for each swarm to show the current content availability in the peer, inbound/outbound traffic capacity, amount of neighbor peers, peer health degree, total amount of bytes uploaded/downloaded to neighbour peers, and other streaming parameters. Therefore, PPSP includes the PPSP tracker protocol - a signaling protocol between PPSP trackers and PPSP peers, and the PPSP peer protocol - a signaling protocol among PPSP peers. PPSP tracker protocol will define: Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 5] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 1) Standard format/encoding of information between PPSP peers and PPSP tracker. Some of this exchanged information may be explicitly marked as optional. Exchanged information may include peer list, swarm ID, chunk information, content availability, streaming status including online time, link status, node capability and other streaming parameters. 2) Standard messages between PPSP peers and PPSP trackers defining how PPSP peers report streaming status and request to PPSP trackers, as well as how PPSP trackers reply to the requests. PPSP peer protocol will define: 1) Standard format/encoding of information among PPSP peers, such as chunk description. 2) Standard messages among PPSP peers defining how PPSP peers advertise chunk availability to each other, as well as the signaling for requesting the chunks among PPSP peers. This document itemizes requirements for the following aspects of PPSP: 1) Basic requirements to PPSP protocols (peer and tracker protocols), entities (peer and tracker), streaming content, and QoS issues. 2) General requirements to the tracker protocol. 3) General requirements to the peer protocol. 4) Security requirements. 4. PPSP Requirements 4.1. Basic Requirements PPSP.REQ-1: The tracker and the peer protocols SHOULD be as similar as possible, in terms of design, message formats and flows. It is desirable that the peer protocol would be an extension to the tracker protocol by adding a few message types, or vice versa. PPSP.REQ-2: The tracker protocol and the peer protocol SHOULD enable peers to receive streaming content within the required time constraints, i.e., fulfill streaming feature. PPSP.REQ-3: Each peer MUST have a unique ID (i.e. peer ID) in a Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 6] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 swarm. It's a basic requirement for a peer to be uniquely identified in a swarm that other peers or tracker can refer to the peer by ID. PPSP.REQ-4: The streaming content MUST be uniquely identified by a swarm ID. A swarm refers to a group of peers sharing the same streaming content. A swarm ID uniquely identifies a swarm. The swarm ID can be used in two cases: 1) a peer requests the tracker for the peer list indexed by a swarm ID; 2) a peer tells the tracker about the swarms it belongs to. PPSP.REQ-5: The streaming content MUST allow to be partitioned into chunks. A key characteristic of P2P streaming system is allowing the data fetching from different peers concurrently. Therefore, the whole streaming content must allow to be partitioned into small pieces or chunks for transmission between peers. PPSP.REQ-6: Each chunk MUST have an unique ID (i.e. chunk ID) in the swarm. Each chunk must have an unique ID in the swarm such as the peer can understand which chunks are stored in which peers and which chunks are requested by other peers. An example for generating the chunk ID is the buffer map approach [I-D.ietf-ppsp-survey]. PPSP.REQ-7: The tracker protocol and peer protocol are Recommended to be carried over TCP (or UDP, when delivery requirements cannot be met by TCP). PPSP.REQ-8: The tracker and peer protocol together MUST facilitate acceptable QoS (e.g. low startup delay, low channel/content switching time and minimal end-to-end delay) for both on-demand and live streaming, even for very popular content. The tracker and peer protocol do not include the algorithm required for scalable streaming. However, the tracker and peer protocol SHALL NOT restrict or place limits on any such algorithm. There are basic QoS requirements for streaming system. Setup time to receive a new streaming channel or to switch between channels should be reasonable small. End to end delay (time between content generation, e.g. camera and content consumption, e.g. user side monitor) will become critical in case of live streaming. Especially in provisioning of sports events, end to end delay of 1 minute and Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 7] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 more are not acceptable. For instance, the tracker and peer protocols can support carrying QoS related parameters (e.g. video quality, delay requirements) together with the priorities of these parameters, and QoS situation (e.g. performance, available uplink bandwidth) of content providing peers. There are also some other possible mechanisms, e.g. addition of super peers, in-network storage, request of alternative peer addresses, and the usage of QoS information for an advanced peer selection. 4.2. PPSP Tracker Protocol Requirements The tracker protocol defines how the peers report and request information to/from the tracker and how the tracker replies to the requests. The tracker discovery and the possible communication between trackers are out of the scope of tracker protocol. PPSP.TP.REQ-1: The tracker MUST implement the tracker protocol for receiving queries and periodical peer status reports/updates from the peers and for sending the corresponding replies. PPSP.TP.REQ-2: The peer MUST implement the tracker protocol for sending queries and periodical peer status reports/updates to the tracker and receiving the corresponding replies. PPSP.TP.REQ-3: The tracker request message MUST allow the requesting peer to solicit the peer list from the tracker with respect to a specific swarm ID. The tracker request message may also include the requesting peer's preference parameter, e.g. preferred number of peers in the peer list, or preferred downloading bandwidth. The track will then be able to select an appropriate set of peers for the requesting peer according to the preference. PPSP.TP.REQ-4: The tracker reply message MUST allow the tracker to offer the peer list to the requesting peer with respect of a specific swarm ID. PPSP.TP.REQ-5: The tracker SHOULD support generating the peer list with the help of traffic optimization services, e.g. ALTO [I-D.ietf-alto-protocol]. PPSP.TP.REQ-6: The peer status report/update message MUST have the ability to inform the tracker about the peer's activity in the swarm. In the case of smart tracker, the chunk information of the peer SHOULD be reported to tracker when tracker needs such information to Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 8] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 steer peer selection. The chunk information MUST at least contain the chunk ID. PPSP.TP.REQ-7: The chunk availability information between peer and tracker MUST be as expressed as compactly as possible. The peers may report CHUNK AVAILABILTY DIGEST information (i.e. compact expression of chunk availability) to the tracker when possible to decrease the bandwidth consumption for messages in bandwidth constraint environment like mobile network. For example, if a peer has a bitmap like 111111...1(100 continuous 1)xxx..., the 100 continuous "1" can be expressed by one byte with seven bits representing 100 and one bit representing "1". In this example, 100- 8=92 bits are saved. Considering the frequency of exchange of CHUNK AVAILBILITY and the fact that many bitmaps have quite a long length of continuous "1" or "0", such compression makes sense. PPSP.TP.REQ-8: The peer status report/update message SHOULD reflect the status of the peer. Peer status change should be reported to the tracker via the peer status report/update message. For example, peer status can be online time, physical link status including DSL/WIFI/etc, battery status, processing capability, and other capabilities of the peer. Therefore, the tracker is able to select better candidate peers for streaming. 4.3. PPSP Peer Protocol Requirements The peer protocol defines how the peers advertise streaming content availability and exchange status with each other. The peer protocol also defines the requests and responses of the chunks among the peers. The first task for this WG will be to decide which signaling and media transfer protocols will be used. The WG will consider existing protocols and, if needed, identify potential extensions to these protocols. PPSP.PP.REQ-1: The streaming content availability request message MUST allow the peer to solicit the chunk information from other peers in the peer list. The chunk information MUST at least contain the chunk ID. This chunk availability information MUST NOT be passed on to other peer, unless validated (e.g. prevent hearsay and DoS). PPSP.PP.REQ-2: The streaming content availability reply message MUST allow the peer to offer the information of the chunks in its content buffer. The chunk information MUST at least contain the chunk ID. PPSP.PP.REQ-3: The streaming content availability request message Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 9] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 SHOULD allow the peer to solicit an additional list of peers to that received from the tracker - with the same swarm ID. The reply message MUST contain swarm-membership information of the peers that have explicitly indicated they are part of the swarm, verifiable by the receiver. This additional list of peers MUST only contain peers which have been checked to be valid and online recently (e.g. prevent hearsay and DoS). It is possible that a peer may need additional peers for certain streaming content. Therefore, it is allowed that the peer communicates with the peers in the current peer list to obtain an additional list of peers in the same swarm. PPSP.PP.REQ-4: Streaming content availability update message among the peers MUST be supported by peer protocol. In the push based model, where peers advocate their own chunk availability proactively, the content availability request message described in PP.REQ-1 is not needed. The peer protocol MUST implement either pull-based, push- based or both. Due to the dynamic change of the buffered streaming content in each peer and the frequent join/leave of peers in the swarm, the streaming content availability among a peer's neighbours (i.e. the peers known to a peer by getting the peer lists from either tracker or peers) always changes and thus requires being updated on time. This update should be done at least on demand. For example, when a peer requires finding more peers with certain chunks, it sends a message to some other peers in the swarm for streaming content availability update. Alternatively, each peer in the swarm can advertise its streaming content availability to some other peers periodically. However, the detailed mechanisms for this update such as how far to spread such update message, how often to send this update message, etc should leave to peer algorithms, rather than protocol concerns. PPSP.PP.REQ-5: The chunk availability information between peers MUST be as expressed as compactly as possible. In PP.REQ-1/2/4, the peers may exchange CHUNK AVAILABILTY DIGEST information (i.e. compact expression of chunk availability) to with other peers when possible to decrease the bandwidth consumption for messages in bandwidth constraint environment like mobile network. PPSP.PP.REQ-6: The peer status report/update SHOULD be advertised among the peers to reflect the status of the peer. Peer status information should be advertised among the peers via the peer status report/update message. For example, peer status can be online time, physical link status including DSL/WIFI/etc, battery Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 10] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 status, processing capability, and other capabilities of the peer. With this information, a peer can select more appropriate peers for streaming. PPSP.PP.REQ-7: The peers MUST implement the peer protocol for chunk data (not availability information) requests and responses among the peers before the streaming content is transmitted. 5. Security Considerations The scope of this section is to analyze the security threats and provide the requirements for PPSP. PPSP.SEC.REQ-1: PPSP MUST support closed swarms, where the peers are authenticated. This ensures that only the authenticated users can access the original media in the P2P streaming system. This can be achieved by security mechanisms such as user authentication and/or key management scheme. PPSP.SEC.REQ-2: Confidentiality of the streaming content in PPSP SHOULD be supported and the corresponding key management scheme SHOULD scale well in P2P streaming system. PPSP.SEC.REQ-3: PPSP MUST provide an option to encrypt the data exchange among the PPSP entities. PPSP.SEC.REQ-4: PPSP MUST have mechanisms to limit potential damage caused by malfunctioning and badly behaving peers in the P2P streaming system. Such an attack will degrade the quality of the rendered media at the receiver. For example, in a P2P live video streaming system a polluter can introduce corrupted chunks. Each receiver integrates into its playback stream the polluted chunks it receives from its other neighbors. Since the peers forwards chunks to other peers, the polluted content can potentially spread through much of the P2P streaming network. PPSP.SEC.REQ-5: PPSP SHOULD support identifying badly behaving peers, and exclude or reject them from the P2P streaming system. PPSP.SEC.REQ-6: PPSP MUST prevent peers from DoS attacks which will exhaust the P2P streaming system's available resource. Given the prevalence of DoS attacks in the Internet, it is important Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 11] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 to realize that a similar threat could exist in a large-scale streaming system where attackers are capable of consuming a lot of resources with just a small amount of effort. PPSP.SEC.REQ-7: PPSP SHOULD be robust, i.e., when centralized tracker fails the P2P streaming system SHOULD still work by supporting distributed trackers. PPSP.SEC.REQ-8: Existing P2P security mechanisms SHOULD be re-used as much as possible in PPSP, to avoid developing new security mechanisms. PPSP.SEC.REQ-9: Integrity of the streaming content in PPSP MUST be supported to provide a peer with the possibility to identify inauthentic media content (undesirable modified by other entities rather than its genuine source). The corresponding checksum distribution and verification scheme SHOULD scale well in P2P streaming system and be robust against distrustful trackers/peers. 6. IANA Considerations This document presently raises no IANA considerations. 7. Acknowledgements The authors would like to thank many people for discussing P2P streaming. We would particularly like to thank: Yingjie Gu, Haibin Song, Xingfeng Jiang from Huawei, Hui Zhang, Jan Seedorf, Martin Stiemerling from NEC Labs, Jun Lei from University of Goettingen, James Seng from PPLive, Das Saumitra from Qualcomm, Christian Schmidt from NSN, Akbar Rahman from Interdigital, Lingli Deng from China Mobile, Johan Pouwelse, Arno Bakker. 8. References 8.1. Normative References [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. 8.2. Informative References [PPLive] "www.pplive.com". [PPStream] Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 12] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 "www.ppstream.com". [UUSee] "www.uusee.com". [Pando] "www.pando.com". [I-D.ietf-ppsp-survey] Gu, Y., Zong, N., Zhang, H., Zhang, Y., Lei, J., Camarillo, G., Liu, Y., Montuno, D., and X. Lei, "Survey of P2P Streaming Applications", draft-ietf-ppsp-survey-02 (work in progress), July 2011. [I-D.ietf-alto-protocol] Alimi, R., Penno, R., and Y. Yang, "ALTO Protocol", draft-ietf-alto-protocol-09 (work in progress), June 2011. [I-D.ietf-ppsp-problem-statement] Zhang, Y., Zong, N., Camarillo, G., Seng, J., and R. Yang, "Problem Statement of P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP)", draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-04 (work in progress), September 2011. Authors' Addresses Ning Zong (editor) Huawei Technologies Huawei Base, No.101 Software Avenue, Nanjing, China Phone: +86 25 56624760 Email: zongning@huawei.com Yunfei Zhang China Mobile Communication Corporation Phone: +86 13601032119 Email: zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Victor Pascual Acme Packet Anabel Segura 10, Madrid 28108, Spain Email: VPascual@acmepacket.com Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 13] Internet-Draft PPSP Requirements September 2011 Carl Williams Consultant Palo Alto, California 94306 Email: carlw@mcsr-labs.org Lin Xiao Nokia Siemens Networks Phone: +86 10 84358977 Email: lin.xiao@nsn.com Zong, et al. Expires March 23, 2012 [Page 14] --Boundary_(ID_Pdg26uxfgaZtyW/l8sHfIQ)-- From a.bakker@vu.nl Wed Sep 21 00:29:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8707021F8B8A for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 00:29:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.801, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hytQ4299ssjc for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 00:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A17521F8B76 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 00:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011A.vu.local (130.37.236.64) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:31:39 +0200 Received: from [143.205.192.39] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:31:41 +0200 Message-ID: <4E79930E.5020509@cs.vu.nl> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 09:32:30 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110812 Thunderbird/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 07:29:17 -0000 Hi all looks fine, just one small remark: in PPSP.TP.REQ-6 the term "smart tracker" is introduced with any further explanation. I think we need to make the requirements for simple trackers and for smart trackers more explicit. Regards, Arno From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Fri Sep 23 00:50:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0351421F8B94 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 00:50:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.829 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.829 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.770, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f5BUSeFzcDCF for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 00:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3FC21F8B92 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 00:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFB8280001C8 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 09:52:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3sNTgEwX0N1 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 09:52:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE58280001C3 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 09:52:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 09:52:26 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: PPSP Virtual Interim Meeting: Dial-in details via Webex Thread-Index: Acx5xL9sYxb7x8xaRTeLKmHOhnDK6A== Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:52:24 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] PPSP Virtual Interim Meeting: Dial-in details via Webex X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:50:20 -0000 Hello folks,=20 We will use Webex (http://www.webex.com/) to hold our PPSP virtual interim = meeting. See below for the "dial-in" details. Using it as a participants se= ems to be straight-forward (at least my experience based on a Windows compu= ter).=20 Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol Working Group invites you to attend this on= line meeting.=20 Topic: PPSP WG Virtual Interim Meeting=20 Date: Wednesday, September 28, 2011=20 Time: 2:00 pm, Europe Summer Time (Berlin, GMT+02:00)=20 Meeting Number: 645 479 720=20 Meeting Password: p2p-wg-vim=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 To join the online meeting (Now from mobile devices!)=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 1. Go to https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?ED=3D146097767&UID=3D0&PW=3DNNDd= hMjI3NDk3&RT=3DMiMyNQ%3D%3D=20 2. If requested, enter your name and email address.=20 3. If a password is required, enter the meeting password: p2p-wg-vim=20 4. Click "Join".=20 To view in other time zones or languages, please click the link:=20 https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?ED=3D146097767&UID=3D0&PW=3DNNDdhMjI3NDk3= &ORT=3DMiMyNQ%3D%3D=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 To join the audio conference only=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 Call-in toll number (US/Canada): +1-408-600-3600=20 Access code:645 479 720=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 For assistance=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 1. Go to https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/mc=20 2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support".=20 You can contact me at:=20 ppsp-chairs@tools.ietf.org=20 To add this meeting to your calendar program (for example Microsoft Outlook= ), click this link:=20 https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?ED=3D146097767&UID=3D0&ICS=3DMI&LD=3D1&RD= =3D2&ST=3D1&SHA2=3DXCHaAqYQcpjpCV-VJpsbUXGKVGDQDFlHGsrmfsXWXP4=3D&RT=3DMiMy= NQ%3D%3D=20 The playback of UCF (Universal Communications Format) rich media files requ= ires appropriate players. To view this type of rich media files in the meet= ing, please check whether you have the players installed on your computer b= y going to https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/systemdiagnosis.php.=20 Sign up for a free trial of WebEx=20 http://www.webex.com/go/mcemfreetrial=20 http://www.webex.com=20 CCP:+14086003600x645479720#=20 IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows audio a= nd any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during the session= to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such= recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, discuss your concerns = with the meeting host prior to the start of the recording or do not join th= e session. Please note that any such recordings may be subject to discovery= in the event of litigation. Kind regards, Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014=20 From internet-drafts@ietf.org Sun Sep 25 06:24:27 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9B821F8B8A; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:24:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e7t4NYQ0ol6R; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E30B21F8B2D; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:24:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.60 Message-ID: <20110925132427.10958.19687.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:24:27 -0700 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:30:46 -0700 Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: [ppsp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-05.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 13:24:27 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Peer to Peer Streaming Protocol Worki= ng Group of the IETF. Title : Problem Statement of P2P Streaming Protocol (PPSP) Author(s) : Yunfei Zhang Ning Zong Gonzalo Camarillo Richard Yang Filename : draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-05.txt Pages : 24 Date : 2011-09-25 P2P streaming systems show more and more popularity in current Internet with proprietary protocols. This document identifies problems of the proprietary protocols, proposes standard signaling protocols called PPSP and discusses the scope and use cases of PPSP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-05.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-05.txt From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Sun Sep 25 06:34:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABCC21F8BA9 for ; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:34:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.883 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.883 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.290, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3MAdJniImHos for ; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340FC21F8B43 for ; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 06:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqmta.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.imsstest.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F8E2E23FD for ; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:36:52 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by hqmta.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2D22E23FB for ; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:36:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.1.5.3]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011092521364093-2025 ; Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:36:40 +0800 Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:36:40 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <20110925132427.10958.54633.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <201109252136396136950@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-25 21:36:43, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-25 21:36:52, Serialize complete at 2011-09-25 21:36:52 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon212330625450_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18406.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--18.723-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--18.723-7.0-31-10;No--18.723-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: [ppsp] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-problem-statement-05.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 13:34:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 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Mon Sep 26 18:37:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9912F21F8ED5 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:37:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.447 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.447 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tq4REJbkcL-s for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8870E21F8ED4 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS500FHER9UGB@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:39:30 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS500MELR9MAI@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:39:30 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id ADX35035; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:39:29 +0800 Received: from SZXEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.95) by szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:39:26 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.134) by szxeml408-hub.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.95) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:39:06 +0800 Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:40:55 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.134] To: ppsp@ietf.org Message-id: <002101cc7cb6$8125c510$83714f30$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_5uYXm7nMKXMQUIIDtqnZ5Q)" Content-language: zh-cn Thread-index: Acx8tn+eGOAjWZfiR72rLgiGrb8vWQ== X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Subject: [ppsp] Please review the updated Tracker protocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:37:02 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_5uYXm7nMKXMQUIIDtqnZ5Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi all, We have uploaded a new version of Tracker protocol. You can find it under PPSP documents webpage, or http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-05.txt In this version, we make many changes according to the meeting minutes. First of all, we optimize the message definition, make some mandatory and some optional. We provide more flexibility to implementation, which can help to decrease rounds of message communication and increase efficiency. An example flow is provided, together with example encoding. Secondly, we update syntax. At last meeting, Wes raised that it was not valid http-xml based encoding. We make large amount of revision to the encoding to make it look better. Hope you can help us to improve it. There will be a virtual interim meeting at this Wednesday. Please try to review it before the meeting if convenient. Thanks a lot. _____ Best Regards Gu Yingjie --Boundary_(ID_5uYXm7nMKXMQUIIDtqnZ5Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hi all,

We have uploaded a new version of Tracker protocol. You can find it under PPSP documents webpage, or http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-05.txt

In this version, we make many changes according to the meeting minutes.

First of all, we optimize the message definiti on, make optional. We provide more flexibility to implementation, which can help to decrease rounds of message communication and increase efficiency. An example flow is provided, together with example encoding.

Secondly, we update syntax. At last meeting, Wes raised that it was not valid http-xml based encoding. We make large amount of revision to the encoding to make it look better. Hope you can help us to improve it.

 

There will be a virtual interim meeting at this Wednesday. Please try to review it before the meeting if convenient.

Thanks a lot.

 

Best Regards
Gu Yingjie

 

--Boundary_(ID_5uYXm7nMKXMQUIIDtqnZ5Q)-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Wed Sep 28 01:22:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C72F21F85A8 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 01:22:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -94.592 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-94.592 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.019, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LP1D4iaOFq3E for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 01:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CF321F8573 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 01:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4107EE4B4; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:24:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30475E4AF; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:24:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.234]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011092816244945-13636 ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:24:49 +0800 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:24:45 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <002101cc7cb6$8125c510$83714f30$@com>, <201109281137454586463@chinamobile.com>, <201109281507130628902@chinamobile.com> <201109281610263435379@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201109281624452876707@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-28 16:24:49, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-28 16:24:50, Serialize complete at 2011-09-28 16:24:50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon478273603558_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18412.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--27.241-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--27.241-7.0-31-10;No--27.241-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] Fw: Please review the updated Tracker protocol X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 08:22:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon478273603558_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" SGksDQogICAgRm9yd2FyZGluZyB0aGUgY29tbWVudHMgdG8gdHJhY2tlciBwcm90b2NvbCBkcmFm 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bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvU1BBTj48L1A+DQo8UCBjbGFzcz1Nc29Ob3JtYWw+PFNQQU4gDQpsYW5nPUVO LVVTPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9TUEFOPjwvUD48L0RJVj48L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+PC9GT05U PjwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0ZPTlQ+PC9GT05UPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= --=====003_Dragon478273603558_=====-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Wed Sep 28 02:34:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F62921F8C0E for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 02:34:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.639 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.639 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.454, BAYES_40=-0.185, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cdq4asaOGghP for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 02:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E4A21F8C43 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 02:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18056280001C4 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:37:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wu1gLLRQg+gJ for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:37:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ENCELADUS.office.hd (ENCELADUS.office.hd [192.168.24.52]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEC0280001C3 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:36:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by ENCELADUS.office.hd ([192.168.24.52]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:36:56 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft agenda for the virtual interim TODAY Thread-Index: Acx9wY3noDKOHBc5QcmPqOE37O3HEA== Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:36:55 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] Draft agenda for the virtual interim TODAY X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:34:18 -0000 Hello, Here is the draft agenda for today's virtual interim meeting: * Agenda bashing (= Chairs,10') * Chair introduction on PPSP progress (Chairs,10') * Tracker Protocol and discussion (Yingjie, 8= 0') * Peer protocol and discussion (Yingjie,= 40') * Conclusion and next steps =20 We will also need at least one note taker for the meeting. Please volunteer= right in the beginning.=20 As written earlier, this meeting will be using Webex. See my email of 9/23! The chairs will be also in the ppsp jabber room ppsp@jabber.ietf.org which = used as a back-up, if and only if there are technical issues with the Webex= systems.=20 Talk to you later.=20 Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014=20 From guyingjie@huawei.com Wed Sep 28 04:29:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE5321F8CCF for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:29:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.556 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.556 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.853, BAYES_50=0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w528R7bdfewN for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A3521F8CBB for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS8003CWDDXIT@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:32:22 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS800BIADDXWE@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:32:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml208-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id AEF06656; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:32:21 +0800 Received: from SZXEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) by szxeml208-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:32:16 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.134) by szxeml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:32:09 +0800 Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:34:10 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: <201109281507130628902@chinamobile.com> X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.134] To: =?gb2312?B?J9XFvaPS+ic=?= Message-id: <008501cc7dd2$8abc1d50$a03457f0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_crAbWIGbZXeB0oRrKAGfWg)" Content-language: zh-cn Thread-index: Acx9rj9/a3yo6lHASg6T7y4Q5q6DCgAJC5Ew X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <002101cc7cb6$8125c510$83714f30$@com> <201109281137454586463@chinamobile.com> <201109281507130628902@chinamobile.com> Cc: 'ppsp' Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogRnc6ICBQbGVhc2UgcmV2aWV3IHRoZSB1cGRh?= =?gb2312?b?dGVkIFRyYWNrZXIgcHJvdG9jb2w=?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:29:38 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_crAbWIGbZXeB0oRrKAGfWg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks a lot, Jianyin, Jinwei and I will review the encoding issues you mentioned after the = interim meeting. =20 =20 _____ =20 Best Regards Gu Yingjie =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA = [mailto:zhangjianyin@chinamobile.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C228=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D615:08 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie Gu(yingjie) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Fw: [ppsp] Please review the updated Tracker protocol =20 Hi, Yingjie, =20 I have some comments on the XML expression as follows: =20 section 5.1.1 It's ok that one example is presented to show the format of the shared mesage body. But it seems as the content emeded in the message body, = having no relation with the "Common Message XML Header", so my advice is to = modify the figure title. =20 section 5.1.2.1 The example for the peerlist representation is not the formal XML = format. It can be expressed as follows: 48482345122344 193.2.2.4 =20 ... ... =20 section 5.1.4.2 The example shown for the FIND response message is just XML schema, = rather than message instance. So maybe the figure title should be changed to = "XML schema expression for FIND Response message". The same problem exists in = the following figures from Figure 6 to Figure 11. =20 Welcome for more discussion. =20 _____ =20 =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA(Jianyin Zhang)=20 =D6=D0=B9=FA=D2=C6=B6=AF=CD=A8=D0=C5=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/Research = Institute of China Mobile Address:=D0=FB=CE=E4=C7=F8=D0=FB=CE=E4=C3=C5=CE=F7=B4=F3=BD=D628=BA=C5=B4= =F3=B3=C9=B9=E3=B3=A12=C3=C511=B2=E31107=CA=D2=A3=A8100053=A3=A9 E-mail: zhangjianyin@chinamobile.com;marcozjy@gmail.com Mobile:+86-139-1002-2506 Fax=A3=BA+86-10-63601087 =20 2011-09-28=20 =20 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Yingjie Gu(yingjie) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-09-27 09:39:58 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA=20 =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Please review the updated Tracker protocol =20 Hi all, We have uploaded a new version of Tracker protocol. You can find it = under PPSP documents webpage, or http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-05.txt In this version, we make many changes according to the meeting minutes.=20 First of all, we optimize the message definiti on, make optional. We = provide more flexibility to implementation, which can help to decrease rounds of message communication and increase efficiency. An example flow is = provided, together with example encoding. Secondly, we update syntax. At last meeting, Wes raised that it was not valid http-xml based encoding. We make large amount of revision to the encoding to make it look better. Hope you can help us to improve it. =20 There will be a virtual interim meeting at this Wednesday. Please try to review it before the meeting if convenient.=20 Thanks a lot. =20 _____ =20 Best Regards Gu Yingjie =20 --Boundary_(ID_crAbWIGbZXeB0oRrKAGfWg) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Th= anks a lot, Jianyin,

Ji= nwei and I will review the encoding issues you mentioned after the = interim meeting.

 

 

B= est Regards
Gu Yingjie

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA [mailto:zhangjianyin@chinamobile.com] =
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C228=C8=D5 = =C0=D6=C0=D615:08
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie = Gu(yingjie)
=B3=AD=CB=CD: = ppsp
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Fw: [ppsp] Please review the updated Tracker = protocol

 

= Hi, Yingjie,=

 =

= I have some comments on the XML expression as follows:=

 =

= section 5.1.1=

= It's ok that one example is presented to show the format of the shared = mesage body. But it seems as the content emeded in the message body, = having no relation with the "Common Message XML Header", so my = advice is to modify the figure title.=

 =

= section 5.1.2.1=

= The example for the peerlist representation is not the formal XML = format. It can be expressed as follows:=

      = <Peers>

 &nbs= p;        = <Peer1>

 &nbs= p;            = <PeerID> 48482345122344 </PeerID>

 &nbs= p;            = <PeerAdd> 193.2.2.4 </PeerAdd>

 &nbs= p;        </Peer1>

      = ;    ... = ...

 &nbs= p;    </Peers>

 =

= section 5.1.4.2=

= The example shown for the FIND response message is just XML schema, = rather than message instance. So maybe the figure title should be = changed to "XML schema expression for FIND Response message". = The same problem exists in the following figures from Figure 6 to Figure = 11.=

 =

= Welcome for more discussion.=

 

=D5=C5=BD= =A3=D2=FA(Jianyin Zhang) =

=D6=D0=B9=FA= =D2=C6=B6=AF=CD=A8=D0=C5=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/= Research Institute of China Mobile=

A= ddress:=D0=FB=CE=E4= =C7=F8=D0=FB=CE=E4=C3=C5=CE=F7=B4=F3=BD=D62= 8=BA=C5=B4=F3= =B3=C9=B9=E3=B3=A12= =C3=C51= 1=B2=E31= 107=CA=D2=A3=A8= 1= 00053=A3=A9=

E= -mail: zhangjianyin@chinamobile.com;marcozjy@gmail.com=

= Mobile:+86-139-1002-2506

= Fax=A3=BA= +86-10-63601087

 =

2011-09-28 =

 =

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA Yingjie = Gu(yingjie)

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4=A3=BA = 2011-09-27 09:39:58

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA = ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] = Please review the updated Tracker = protocol

 =

Hi= all,

We= have uploaded a new version of Tracker protocol. You can find it under = PPSP documents webpage, or htt= p://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-05.txt

In= this version, we make many changes according to the meeting minutes. =

Fi= rst of all, we optimize the message definiti on, make optional. We = provide more flexibility to implementation, which can help to decrease = rounds of message communication and increase efficiency. An example flow = is provided, together with example encoding.

Se= condly, we update syntax. At last meeting, Wes raised that it was not = valid http-xml based encoding. We make large amount of revision to the = encoding to make it look better. Hope you can help us to improve = it.

 

Th= ere will be a virtual interim meeting at this Wednesday. Please try to = review it before the meeting if convenient.

Thanks a = lot.

 

B= est Regards
Gu Yingjie

 

= --Boundary_(ID_crAbWIGbZXeB0oRrKAGfWg)-- From Martin.Stiemerling@neclab.eu Wed Sep 28 04:36:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDE421F8C0E for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:36:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.836 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.836 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.763, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IKAXMTQcM3Ba for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu (mailer1.neclab.eu [195.37.70.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E650221F8BFB for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F793280001D6 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:39:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office.hd) Received: from mailer1.neclab.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office.hd [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c5uHqXtcBfdd for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:39:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from METHONE.office.hd (Methone.office.hd [192.168.24.54]) by mailer1.neclab.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C3E2800018F for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:39:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DAPHNIS.office.hd ([169.254.2.240]) by METHONE.office.hd ([192.168.24.54]) with mapi id 14.01.0323.003; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:39:17 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: "ppsp@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Slides for virtual interim meeting Thread-Index: Acx90ymyEN8r3NnnSouhQ0I4EjAX7Q== Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:39:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.1.1.135] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ppsp] Slides for virtual interim meeting X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:36:35 -0000 Hi, The slides for the virtual interim meeting will be shown via Webex, but non= etheless, you can find them also for download here: http://www.stiemerling.org/ietf/ppsp/20110928-ppsp-virtual-interim-slides.z= ip Martin martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | Re= gistered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in = England 2832014=20 From rui.cruz@ieee-pt.org Wed Sep 28 04:59:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4774E21F8D15 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:59:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.282 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.282 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h5tBipT7y4L3 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE8721F8D10 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wwf22 with SMTP id 22so5883496wwf.13 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.186.146 with SMTP id w18mr10632513wem.29.1317211314247; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from airoso.lan ([89.180.69.50]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h39sm3771285wbo.0.2011.09.28.05.01.51 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 28 Sep 2011 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Rui Cruz Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9EEEA889-7CDD-436D-92E8-F0CDE0FC9CB3" From: Rui Cruz In-Reply-To: <008501cc7dd2$8abc1d50$a03457f0$@com> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:01:50 +0100 Message-Id: <7EEFF3C4-9710-4F0B-A9DF-088BC55D98B5@ieee.org> References: <002101cc7cb6$8125c510$83714f30$@com> <201109281137454586463@chinamobile.com> <201109281507130628902@chinamobile.com> <008501cc7dd2$8abc1d50$a03457f0$@com> To: ppsp X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Subject: Re: [ppsp] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBGdzogIFBsZWFzZSByZXZpZXcgdGhlIHVwZGF0?= =?utf-8?q?ed_Tracker_protocol?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 12:01:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9EEEA889-7CDD-436D-92E8-F0CDE0FC9CB3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Hi Yingije, In this new draft some messages have disappeared (CONNECT, DISCONNECT) = without explanation. But for JOIN and STAT messages the descriptions in section 4.3 do not = match with their syntax in section 5, where it is stated in Table 1 that = the valid strings for requests are FIND, JOIN, LEAVE, KEEPALIVE, = STAT_QUERY, STAT_REPORT, and then in section 5.1.5.2 a JOIN_CHUNK = message is described.=20 Another concern is related to the statement=20 "The PPSP tracker protocol can serve live media and VoD, as well as file = sharing applications." The purpose of PPSP is for streaming in P2P. Including also "file = sharing" does not seem to be adequate. I also do not see the purpose of the change in the description from the = messages formats to the XML schemas. On the other hand, reversing the process of STAT_REPORT, as only a = response to a STAT_QUERY from tracker may be problematic. Regards, Rui Cruz On 28/09/2011, at 12:34, Yingjie Gu(yingjie) wrote: > Thanks a lot, Jianyin, > Jinwei and I will review the encoding issues you mentioned after the = interim meeting. > =20 > =20 > Best Regards > Gu Yingjie > =20 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA = [mailto:zhangjianyin@chinamobile.com]=20 > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C228=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D615:08 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie Gu(yingjie) > =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp > =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Fw: [ppsp] Please review the updated Tracker = protocol > =20 > Hi, Yingjie, > =20 > I have some comments on the XML expression as follows: > =20 > section 5.1.1 > It's ok that one example is presented to show the format of the shared = mesage body. But it seems as the content emeded in the message body, = having no relation with the "Common Message XML Header", so my advice is = to modify the figure title. > =20 > section 5.1.2.1 > The example for the peerlist representation is not the formal XML = format. It can be expressed as follows: > > > 48482345122344 > 193.2.2.4 > > ... ... > > =20 > section 5.1.4.2 > The example shown for the FIND response message is just XML schema, = rather than message instance. So maybe the figure title should be = changed to "XML schema expression for FIND Response message". The same = problem exists in the following figures from Figure 6 to Figure 11. > =20 > Welcome for more discussion. > =20 > =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA(Jianyin Zhang)=20 > =D6=D0=B9=FA=D2=C6=B6=AF=CD=A8=D0=C5=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/Research = Institute of China Mobile > Address:=D0=FB=CE=E4=C7=F8=D0=FB=CE=E4=C3=C5=CE=F7=B4=F3=BD=D628=BA=C5=B4= =F3=B3=C9=B9=E3=B3=A12=C3=C511=B2=E31107=CA=D2=A3=A8100053=A3=A9 > E-mail: zhangjianyin@chinamobile.com;marcozjy@gmail.com > Mobile:+86-139-1002-2506 > Fax=A3=BA+86-10-63601087 > =20 > 2011-09-28 > =20 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Yingjie Gu(yingjie) > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-09-27 09:39:58 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Please review the updated Tracker protocol > =20 > Hi all, > We have uploaded a new version of Tracker protocol. You can find it = under PPSP documents webpage, or = http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-05.txt > In this version, we make many changes according to the meeting = minutes. > First of all, we optimize the message definiti on, make optional. We = provide more flexibility to implementation, which can help to decrease = rounds of message communication and increase efficiency. An example flow = is provided, together with example encoding. > Secondly, we update syntax. At last meeting, Wes raised that it was = not valid http-xml based encoding. We make large amount of revision to = the encoding to make it look better. Hope you can help us to improve it. > =20 > There will be a virtual interim meeting at this Wednesday. Please try = to review it before the meeting if convenient. > Thanks a lot. > =20 > Best Regards > Gu Yingjie > =20 > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --Apple-Mail=_9EEEA889-7CDD-436D-92E8-F0CDE0FC9CB3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Hi Yingije,

In this new draft = some messages have disappeared (CONNECT, DISCONNECT) without = explanation.

But for JOIN and STAT messages the = descriptions in section 4.3 do not match with their syntax in section 5, = where it is stated in Table 1 that the valid strings for requests are = FIND, JOIN, LEAVE, KEEPALIVE, STAT_QUERY, STAT_REPORT, and then in = section 5.1.5.2 a JOIN_CHUNK message is = described. 

Another concern is related to = the statement 
"The = PPSP tracker protocol can serve live media and VoD, as well as file sharing = applications."
The purpose of PPSP is for streaming in = P2P. Including also "file sharing" does not seem to be = adequate.

I also do not see the purpose of the = change in the description from the messages formats to the XML = schemas.

On the other hand, reversing the = process of STAT_REPORT, as only a response to a STAT_QUERY from tracker = may be problematic.

Regards,
Rui = Cruz

On 28/09/2011, at 12:34, Yingjie Gu(yingjie) = wrote:

Jinwei and I will review the encoding = issues you mentioned after the interim = meeting.
 
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA<= span lang=3D"EN-US"> [mailto:zhangjianyin@chinamob= ile.com] 
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA= =B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C228=C8=D5 = =C0=D6=C0=D615:08
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie = Gu(yingjie)
=B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp
=D6=F7=CC=E2= : Re: Fw: [ppsp] Please = review the updated Tracker = protocol
 
 
 
It's ok that one example is = presented to show the format of the shared mesage body. But it seems as = the content emeded in the message body, having no relation with the = "Common Message XML Header", so my advice is to modify the figure = title.
section 5.1.2.1
The example for the peerlist = representation is not the formal XML format. It can be expressed as = follows: <Peers>
          = <Peer1>
... ...section 5.1.4.2
The example shown for the FIND = response message is just XML schema, rather than message instance. So = maybe the figure title should be changed to "XML schema expression for = FIND Response message". The same problem exists in the following figures = from Figure 6 to Figure 11. 
 
=D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA(Jianyin Zhang)=D6=D0=B9=FA=D2=C6=B6=AF=CD=A8=D0=C5=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/Research Institute of China = Mobile
=D0=FB=CE=E4=C7=F8=D0=FB=CE=E4=C3=C5=CE=F7=B4=F3=BD=D628=BA=C5=B4=F3=B3=C9=B9=E3=B3=A12=C3=C511=B2=E31107=CA=D2=A3=A8100053=A3=A9
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] = Please review the updated Tracker = protocol
Hi all,
 
 
_______________________________________________
ppsp = mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ppsp] Slides for virtual interim meeting X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 12:58:09 -0000 Hi All, Some last minute slides for upcoming "trial slot" in our ongoing meeting: http://pds.twi.tudelft.nl/~pouwelse/ppsp-virtual-meeting-slides-trial-and-t= esting.ppt -johan. On 28 September 2011 13:39, Martin Stiemerling wrote: > Hi, > > The slides for the virtual interim meeting will be shown via Webex, but n= onetheless, you can find them also for download here: > http://www.stiemerling.org/ietf/ppsp/20110928-ppsp-virtual-interim-slides= .zip > > =A0Martin > > martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu > > NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited | = Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered i= n England 2832014 > > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > From zongning@huawei.com Wed Sep 28 17:28:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D266A11E8165 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.316 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.316 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83jZDlLR7q8e for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2973611E8144 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS9008HZDGHGD@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:31:29 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS900AE8DGH5W@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:31:29 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id ADZ03252; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:31:28 +0800 Received: from SZXEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.137) by szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:31:23 +0800 Received: from SZXEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.252]) by szxeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.137]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:31:22 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:31:20 +0000 From: ZongNing In-reply-to: <4E79930E.5020509@cs.vu.nl> X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.128] To: "arno@cs.vu.nl" , "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Thread-topic: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt Thread-index: AQHMeDEQzbNuhofGk0e09F/+Z79juZVji9aA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4E79930E.5020509@cs.vu.nl> Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:28:44 -0000 Hi, Arno, Since there is no such definition like "simple tracker" and "smart tracker" in industry, I prefer not to define these terms in PPSP WG. For a requirement draft, we can just use the words - "MUST", "SHOULD", "MAY" etc to differentiate which are necessary (for basic inter-op) and which are preferred. The real-world implementation will choose the appropriate functional set based on their design, rather than follow our requirements/definition of "simple tracker" and "smart tracker". How do you think. BR, Ning Zong -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Arno Bakker Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 3:33 PM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt Hi all looks fine, just one small remark: in PPSP.TP.REQ-6 the term "smart tracker" is introduced with any further explanation. I think we need to make the requirements for simple trackers and for smart trackers more explicit. Regards, Arno _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From wes@mti-systems.com Wed Sep 28 19:14:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9CA1F0C79 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:14:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.114, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nw9VPY8jAIpZ for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omr13.networksolutionsemail.com (omr13.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.63]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FCC1F0C4B for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-omr7 (mail.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.50]) by omr13.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id p8T2HLj1025685 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:17:21 -0400 Authentication-Results: cm-omr7 smtp.user=wes@mti-systems.com; auth=pass (PLAIN) X-Authenticated-UID: wes@mti-systems.com Received: from [174.130.65.79] ([174.130.65.79:13691] helo=[192.168.1.102]) by cm-omr7 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.41 r(31179/31189)) with ESMTPA id E0/60-04511-135D38E4; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:17:21 -0400 Message-ID: <4E83D533.5050007@mti-systems.com> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:17:23 -0400 From: Wesley Eddy Organization: MTI Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ppsp@ietf.org References: <4E79930E.5020509@cs.vu.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:14:35 -0000 On 9/28/2011 8:31 PM, ZongNing wrote: > Hi, Arno, > > Since there is no such definition like "simple tracker" and "smart tracker" in industry, I prefer not to define these terms in PPSP WG. > For a requirement draft, we can just use the words - "MUST", "SHOULD", "MAY" etc to differentiate which are necessary (for basic inter-op) and which are preferred. The real-world implementation will choose the appropriate functional set based on their design, rather than follow our requirements/definition of "simple tracker" and "smart tracker". > How do you think. Just speaking as an individual, I would agree with Arno. If it doesn't have a technical definition, then "smart tracker" is just a marketing term and should be avoided in a requirements spec. -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems From zongning@huawei.com Wed Sep 28 19:31:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9F321F8DB8 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.838, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 862tdwdxZpwi for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EA11F0CF2 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS900FQYJ4G04@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:33:52 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS900CYDJ4707@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:33:52 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id ADZ13470; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:33:52 +0800 Received: from SZXEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.91) by szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:33:46 +0800 Received: from SZXEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.252]) by szxeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.91]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:33:44 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:33:42 +0000 From: ZongNing In-reply-to: <4E83D533.5050007@mti-systems.com> X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.128] To: Wesley Eddy , "ppsp@ietf.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Thread-topic: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt Thread-index: AQHMfk35WEs8oss1tUiXDRPbHvxJ3pVjohUA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4E79930E.5020509@cs.vu.nl> <4E83D533.5050007@mti-systems.com> Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:31:47 -0000 Hi, Wesley, Just to be clear, you agree with Arno or me? It seems to me that you actually agree with me. Here is Arno's opinion: " I think we need to make the requirements for simple trackers and for smart trackers more explicit." Here is my opinion: " Since there is no such definition like "simple tracker" and "smart tracker" in industry, I prefer NOT to define these terms in PPSP WG. For a requirement draft, we can just use the words - "MUST", "SHOULD", "MAY" etc to differentiate which are necessary (for basic inter-op) and which are preferred." BR, Ning Zong -----Original Message----- From: ppsp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ppsp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wesley Eddy Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:17 AM To: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt On 9/28/2011 8:31 PM, ZongNing wrote: > Hi, Arno, > > Since there is no such definition like "simple tracker" and "smart tracker" in industry, I prefer not to define these terms in PPSP WG. > For a requirement draft, we can just use the words - "MUST", "SHOULD", "MAY" etc to differentiate which are necessary (for basic inter-op) and which are preferred. The real-world implementation will choose the appropriate functional set based on their design, rather than follow our requirements/definition of "simple tracker" and "smart tracker". > How do you think. Just speaking as an individual, I would agree with Arno. If it doesn't have a technical definition, then "smart tracker" is just a marketing term and should be avoided in a requirements spec. -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp From guyingjie@huawei.com Wed Sep 28 19:36:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445CC21F8DF5 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:36:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.783 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.480, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1WPamz+IMhQX for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D0521F8DF4 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS9007QNJBHNS@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:38:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS900BZFJBHHX@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:38:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id ADZ13891; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:38:04 +0800 Received: from SZXEML407-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.94) by szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:37:58 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.134) by szxeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:37:56 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:39:41 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: <7EEFF3C4-9710-4F0B-A9DF-088BC55D98B5@ieee.org> X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.134] To: 'Rui Cruz' , 'ppsp' Message-id: <003201cc7e51$0aaef270$200cd750$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_2JvPOJodEg41DpTjwD9+Mw)" Content-language: zh-cn Thread-index: Acx91nz3CizAT5DFS/qb7uqYoCzpcAAEU9UQ X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <002101cc7cb6$8125c510$83714f30$@com> <201109281137454586463@chinamobile.com> <201109281507130628902@chinamobile.com> <008501cc7dd2$8abc1d50$a03457f0$@com> <7EEFF3C4-9710-4F0B-A9DF-088BC55D98B5@ieee.org> Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogILTwuLQ6IEZ3OiAgUGxlYXNlIHJldmlldyB0?= =?gb2312?b?aGUgdXBkYXRlZCBUcmFja2VyIHByb3RvY29s?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:36:45 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_2JvPOJodEg41DpTjwD9+Mw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Cruz, Thank you very much for the detail comments. I will try to add some explanation in the draft. The remove of CONNECT, DISCONNECT is in order to reduce communication rounds. At the very beginning, we planed to define a protocol with clear definition of each step. But, at last meeting, after discussing with many people, we think = a perfect protocol may not be necessary, and we fail to find a reason a = peer connect to tracker without FIND or JOIN. So we remove CONNECT, = DISCONNECT. =20 I will revise the draft to make it be consistent. E.g. delete = JOIN_CHUNK. =20 As for file sharing, I will remove it. =20 According to interim meeting at last night, STAT_QUERY should be removed = for now, and STAT_REPORT need more discussion. We need to discuss on the = mail list whether we would like Tracker to deal with =A1=AEperformance = improvement=A1=AF kind of issue by STAT_REPORT. =20 Thank you again for your comments. _____ =20 Best Regards Gu Yingjie =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rui Cruz [mailto:rui.cruz@ieee-pt.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED = Rui Cruz =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C228=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D620:02 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: ppsp =B3=AD=CB=CD: Rui Cruz; Yingjie Gu(yingjie) =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Fw: Please review the updated = Tracker protocol =20 Hi Yingije, =20 In this new draft some messages have disappeared (CONNECT, DISCONNECT) without explanation. =20 But for JOIN and STAT messages the descriptions in section 4.3 do not = match with their syntax in section 5, where it is stated in Table 1 that the = valid strings for requests are FIND, JOIN, LEAVE, KEEPALIVE, STAT_QUERY, STAT_REPORT, and then in section 5.1.5.2 a JOIN_CHUNK message is = described.=20 =20 Another concern is related to the statement=20 "The PPSP tracker protocol can serve live media and VoD, as well as file sharing applications." The purpose of PPSP is for streaming in P2P. Including also "file = sharing" does not seem to be adequate. =20 I also do not see the purpose of the change in the description from the messages formats to the XML schemas. =20 On the other hand, reversing the process of STAT_REPORT, as only a = response to a STAT_QUERY from tracker may be problematic. =20 Regards, Rui Cruz =20 On 28/09/2011, at 12:34, Yingjie Gu(yingjie) wrote: Thanks a lot, Jianyin, Jinwei and I will review the encoding issues you mentioned after the = interim meeting. =20 =20 _____ =20 Best Regards Gu Yingjie =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA = [mailto:zhangjianyin@chinamobile.com]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C228=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D615:08 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie Gu(yingjie) =B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Fw: [ppsp] Please review the updated Tracker protocol =20 Hi, Yingjie, =20 I have some comments on the XML expression as follows: =20 section 5.1.1 It's ok that one example is presented to show the format of the shared mesage body. But it seems as the content emeded in the message body, = having no relation with the "Common Message XML Header", so my advice is to = modify the figure title. =20 section 5.1.2.1 The example for the peerlist representation is not the formal XML = format. It can be expressed as follows: 48482345122344 193.2.2.4 ... ... =20 section 5.1.4.2 The example shown for the FIND response message is just XML schema, = rather than message instance. So maybe the figure title should be changed to = "XML schema expression for FIND Response message". The same problem exists in = the following figures from Figure 6 to Figure 11. =20 Welcome for more discussion. =20 _____ =20 =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA(Jianyin Zhang)=20 =D6=D0=B9=FA=D2=C6=B6=AF=CD=A8=D0=C5=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/Research = Institute of China Mobile Address:=D0=FB=CE=E4=C7=F8=D0=FB=CE=E4=C3=C5=CE=F7=B4=F3=BD=D628=BA=C5=B4= =F3=B3=C9=B9=E3=B3=A12=C3=C511=B2=E31107=CA=D2=A3=A8100053=A3=A9 E-mail: zhangjianyin@chinamobile.com;marcozjy@gmail.com Mobile:+86-139-1002-2506 Fax=A3=BA+86-10-63601087 =20 2011-09-28 =20 _____ =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Yingjie Gu(yingjie) =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-09-27 09:39:58 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] Please review the updated Tracker protocol =20 Hi all, We have uploaded a new version of Tracker protocol. You can find it = under PPSP documents webpage, or http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-05.txt In this version, we make many changes according to the meeting minutes. First of all, we optimize the message definiti on, make optional. We = provide more flexibility to implementation, which can help to decrease rounds of message communication and increase efficiency. An example flow is = provided, together with example encoding. Secondly, we update syntax. At last meeting, Wes raised that it was not valid http-xml based encoding. We make large amount of revision to the encoding to make it look better. Hope you can help us to improve it. =20 There will be a virtual interim meeting at this Wednesday. Please try to review it before the meeting if convenient. Thanks a lot. =20 _____ =20 Best Regards Gu Yingjie =20 _______________________________________________ ppsp mailing list ppsp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp =20 --Boundary_(ID_2JvPOJodEg41DpTjwD9+Mw) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Cruz,

Thank you very = much for the detail comments.

I will try to add = some explanation in the draft. The remove of CONNECT, DISCONNECT is in = order to reduce communication rounds. At the very beginning, we planed = to define a protocol with clear definition of each step. But, at last = meeting, after discussing with many people, we think a perfect protocol = may not be necessary, and we fail to find a reason a peer connect to = tracker without FIND or JOIN. So we remove CONNECT, = DISCONNECT.

 

I will revise the = draft to make it be consistent. E.g. delete = JOIN_CHUNK.

 

As for file = sharing, I will remove it.

 

According to = interim meeting at last night, STAT_QUERY should be removed for now, and = STAT_REPORT need more discussion. We need to discuss on the mail list = whether we would like Tracker to deal with =A1=AEperformance = improvement=A1=AF kind of issue by STAT_REPORT.

 

Thank you again = for your comments.

=

B= est Regards
Gu Yingjie

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rui Cruz [mailto:rui.cruz@ieee-pt.or= g] =B4=FA=B1=ED = Rui = Cruz
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C228=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D620:02
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: = ppsp
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Rui Cruz; Yingjie = Gu(yingjie)
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [ppsp] = =B4=F0=B8=B4: Fw: Please review the updated = Tracker protocol

 

Hi = Yingije,

 

In this new draft some messages = have disappeared (CONNECT, DISCONNECT) without = explanation.

 

But for JOIN and STAT messages the = descriptions in section 4.3 do not match with their syntax in section 5, = where it is stated in Table 1 that the valid strings for requests are = FIND, JOIN, LEAVE, KEEPALIVE, STAT_QUERY, STAT_REPORT, and then in = section 5.1.5.2 a JOIN_CHUNK message is = described. 

 

Another concern is related to the = statement 

"The PPSP tracker protocol = can serve live media and VoD, as well as file sharing = applications."

The purpose of PPSP is for = streaming in P2P. Including also "file sharing" does not seem = to be adequate.

 

I also do not see the purpose of = the change in the description from the messages formats to the XML = schemas.

 

On the other hand, reversing the = process of STAT_REPORT, as only a response to a STAT_QUERY from tracker = may be problematic.

 

Regards,

Rui = Cruz

 

On 28/09/2011, at 12:34, Yingjie = Gu(yingjie) wrote:



Thanks a lot, = Jianyin,

Jinwei and I will = review the encoding issues you mentioned after the interim = meeting.

 

 

=

B= est Regards
Gu Yingjie

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: =D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA [mailto:zhangjianyi= n@chinamobile.com] 
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1= =BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C228=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D615:08
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie = Gu(yingjie)
=B3=AD=CB=CD: ppsp
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: Fw: [ppsp] = Please review the updated Tracker protocol

 

Hi, = Yingjie,

 

I have some = comments on the XML expression as follows:

 

section = 5.1.1

It's ok that one = example is presented to show the format of the shared mesage body. But = it seems as the content emeded in the message body, having no relation = with the "Common Message XML Header", so my advice is to = modify the figure title.

 

section = 5.1.2.1

The example = for the peerlist representation is not the formal XML format. It can be = expressed as follows:

      <Peers>

      = ;    <Peer1>

      = ;        <PeerID> = 48482345122344 </PeerID>

      = ;        <PeerAdd> 193.2.2.4 = </PeerAdd>

      = ;    </Peer1>

       &nbs= p;  ... ...

      = </Peers>

 

section = 5.1.4.2

The example = shown for the FIND response message is just XML schema, rather than = message instance. So maybe the figure title should be changed to = "XML schema expression for FIND Response message". The same = problem exists in the following figures from Figure 6 to Figure = 11.

 

Welcome for more = discussion.

 

=D5=C5=BD=A3=D2=FA(Jianyin Zhang) 

=D6=D0=B9=FA=D2=C6=B6=AF=CD=A8=D0=C5= =D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA/= Research Institute of China Mobile

A= ddress:=D0=FB=CE=E4=C7=F8=D0=FB=CE=E4=C3=C5= =CE=F7=B4=F3=BD=D62= 8=BA=C5=B4=F3=B3=C9=B9=E3=B3=A12= =C3=C51= 1=B2=E31= 107=CA=D2=A3=A81= 00053=A3=A9

= Mobile:+86-139-1002-2506

= Fax=A3=BA= +86-10-63601087

 

2011-09-28

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA Yingjie = Gu(yingjie)

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC= =E4=A3=BA 2011-09-27&= nbsp;09:39:58

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3= =BA ppsp@ietf.org

=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA

=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] = Please review the updated Tracker protocol

 

Hi = all,

We = have uploaded a new version of Tracker protocol. You can find it under = PPSP documents webpage, or htt= p://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gu-ppsp-tracker-protocol-05.txt

In = this version, we make many changes according to the meeting = minutes.

First = of all, we optimize the message definiti on, make optional. We provide = more flexibility to implementation, which can help to decrease rounds of = message communication and increase efficiency. An example flow is = provided, together with example encoding.

Secondly, we = update syntax. At last meeting, Wes raised that it was not valid = http-xml based encoding. We make large amount of revision to the = encoding to make it look better. Hope you can help us to improve = it.

 

There = will be a virtual interim meeting at this Wednesday. Please try to = review it before the meeting if convenient.

Thanks a = lot.

 

B= est Regards
Gu Yingjie

 

_______________________________________________
ppsp = mailing list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/ppsp

 

= --Boundary_(ID_2JvPOJodEg41DpTjwD9+Mw)-- From wes@mti-systems.com Wed Sep 28 19:44:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993BF1F0D23 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5JiT9uxpXJea for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omr12.networksolutionsemail.com (omr12.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.62]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F5B1F0C3E for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-omr9 (mail.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.50]) by omr12.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id p8T2lRrr027201 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:47:27 -0400 Authentication-Results: cm-omr9 smtp.user=wes@mti-systems.com; auth=pass (PLAIN) X-Authenticated-UID: wes@mti-systems.com Received: from [174.130.81.159] ([174.130.81.159:33642] helo=[192.168.1.102]) by cm-omr9 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.41 r(31179/31189)) with ESMTPA id 1C/DE-18461-E3CD38E4; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:47:27 -0400 Message-ID: <4E83DC40.3060300@mti-systems.com> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:47:28 -0400 From: Wesley Eddy Organization: MTI Systems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 Thunderbird/6.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ZongNing References: <4E79930E.5020509@cs.vu.nl> <4E83D533.5050007@mti-systems.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:44:38 -0000 On 9/28/2011 10:33 PM, ZongNing wrote: > Hi, Wesley, > > Just to be clear, you agree with Arno or me? It seems to me that you actually agree with me. > > Here is Arno's opinion: > " I think we need to make the requirements for simple trackers and for smart trackers more explicit." > > Here is my opinion: > " Since there is no such definition like "simple tracker" and "smart tracker" in industry, I prefer NOT to define these terms in PPSP WG. For a requirement draft, we can just use the words - "MUST", "SHOULD", "MAY" etc to differentiate which are necessary (for basic inter-op) and which are preferred." I think the options are to either: - explicitly define simple versus smart trackers (as Arno suggested) or - think about dropping the "smart" terminology in the one place it occurs (this may be what you're suggesting, with properties for smart trackers as SHOULDs, but I wasn't sure that was exactly what you meant or not) -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems From zongning@huawei.com Wed Sep 28 20:05:58 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA211F0C3E for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:05:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.724 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.724 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.648, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BxCNqBiIA3by for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B391F0D3F for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS90087NKO4GD@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:07:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS900JALKO492@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:07:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id ADZ16777; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:07:16 +0800 Received: from SZXEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.137) by szxeml203-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:06:42 +0800 Received: from SZXEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.252]) by szxeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.82.67.137]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:06:41 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 03:06:40 +0000 From: ZongNing In-reply-to: <4E83DC40.3060300@mti-systems.com> X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.128] To: Wesley Eddy Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: zh-CN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Thread-topic: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt Thread-index: AQHMfk35WEs8oss1tUiXDRPbHvxJ3pVjohUA//9/cwCAAIdZwA== X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: <4E79930E.5020509@cs.vu.nl> <4E83D533.5050007@mti-systems.com> <4E83DC40.3060300@mti-systems.com> Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 03:05:58 -0000 See inline. -----Original Message----- From: Wesley Eddy [mailto:wes@mti-systems.com] Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:47 AM To: ZongNing Cc: ppsp@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt On 9/28/2011 10:33 PM, ZongNing wrote: > Hi, Wesley, > > Just to be clear, you agree with Arno or me? It seems to me that you actually agree with me. > > Here is Arno's opinion: > " I think we need to make the requirements for simple trackers and for smart trackers more explicit." > > Here is my opinion: > " Since there is no such definition like "simple tracker" and "smart tracker" in industry, I prefer NOT to define these terms in PPSP WG. For a requirement draft, we can just use the words - "MUST", "SHOULD", "MAY" etc to differentiate which are necessary (for basic inter-op) and which are preferred." I think the options are to either: - explicitly define simple versus smart trackers (as Arno suggested) or - think about dropping the "smart" terminology in the one place it occurs (this may be what you're suggesting, with properties for smart trackers as SHOULDs, but I wasn't sure that was exactly what you meant or not) [ZN]: I mean dropping the "smart" term and using the SHOULDs. I am not in favor of defining smart tracker by ourselves in requirement spec, as I haven't seen clear demarcation of simple tracker and smart tracker in industry (on the contrary, we do see clear role of peer and tracker in existing P2P applications). Please correct me, if anybody does see clear definition of smart tracker. Thanks. BR, Ning Zong -- Wes Eddy MTI Systems From li.lichun1@zte.com.cn Wed Sep 28 20:33:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 915D71F0C45 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.787 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.787 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cWlXRmSvYzC4 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04DC5E800C for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.17.100] by mx5.zte.com.cn with surfront esmtp id 46621790912505; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:33:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.30.3.21] by [192.168.168.16] with StormMail ESMTP id 46680.2836501774; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:36:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from notes_smtp.zte.com.cn ([10.30.1.239]) by mse02.zte.com.cn with ESMTP id p8T3aIHC001077; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:36:18 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from li.lichun1@zte.com.cn) To: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" , "'ppsp'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: A605948E:DE8CE404-4825791A:00106688; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.6 March 06, 2007 Message-ID: From: li.lichun1@zte.com.cn Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:36:13 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes_smtp/zte_ltd(Release 8.5.1FP4|July 25, 2010) at 2011-09-29 11:36:19, Serialize complete at 2011-09-29 11:36:19 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 001407914825791A_=" X-MAIL: mse02.zte.com.cn p8T3aIHC001077 Subject: [ppsp] PPSP encoding X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 03:33:40 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 001407914825791A_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi Yingjie, In your slides, tracker protocol uses XML encoding while peer protocol uses binary encoding. Both peer protocol and tracker protocol provide messages to convey peer list, content availability and status. I think peer protocol and tracker protocol's message encodings can be and should be similar. That will make implementing PPSP easier and reduce resource consumption in peer. BR Lichun -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. --=_alternative 001407914825791A_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi Yingjie,

In your slides, tracker protocol uses XML encoding while peer protocol uses binary encoding. Both peer protocol and tracker protocol provide messages to convey peer list, content availability and status.
I think peer protocol and tracker protocol's message encodings can be and should be similar. That will make implementing PPSP easier and reduce resource consumption in peer.


BR
Lichun
--------------------------------------------------------
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--=_alternative 001407914825791A_=-- From guyingjie@huawei.com Wed Sep 28 22:08:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CFC21F8DF4 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9XyI76rNVlJz for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [119.145.14.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12E221F8DD2 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS900MLSQE0PU@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:10:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0LS9004UZQDW56@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for ppsp@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:10:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id ADZ26173; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:10:08 +0800 Received: from SZXEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.91) by szxeml206-edg.china.huawei.com (172.24.2.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:09:58 +0800 Received: from g00107907 (10.138.41.134) by szxeml412-hub.china.huawei.com (10.82.67.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:09:54 +0800 Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:11:40 +0800 From: "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" In-reply-to: X-Originating-IP: [10.138.41.134] To: li.lichun1@zte.com.cn, 'ppsp' Message-id: <004d01cc7e66$45c51690$d14f43b0$@com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Inl7k6joYXAqP8bj6JI4jw)" Content-language: zh-cn Thread-index: Acx+WQiyyG8cqZi2TtWYNyWBXD/1XgADCDFQ X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected References: Subject: [ppsp] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogUFBTUCBlbmNvZGluZw==?= X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 05:08:10 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_Inl7k6joYXAqP8bj6JI4jw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lichun, We had discussion at last meeting and also discussed at interim meeting = at last night. Here is brief conclusion of the discussion. =20 There is no significant benefit by using HTTP as peer protocol.=20 The reason to use HTTP as tracker protocol is that we hope it=A1=AFs = readable, and usually it=A1=AFs c/s mode.=20 While for Peer protocol, readability is not the as important as Tracker protocol. Besides, in peer protocol, there is no clear role of client or server, = every peer could initiate a request. So HTTP may be not suitable in this case. =20 I guess there is a rough consensus that we should use binary in peer protocol. But I would like to hear what the chairs think of. Do we get a rough consensus on peer protocol encoding? =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 Best Regards Gu Yingjie =20 =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: li.lichun1@zte.com.cn [mailto:li.lichun1@zte.com.cn] = =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C229=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D611:36 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie Gu(yingjie); 'ppsp' =D6=F7=CC=E2: PPSP encoding =20 Hi Yingjie,=20 In your slides, tracker protocol uses XML encoding while peer protocol = uses binary encoding. Both peer protocol and tracker protocol provide = messages to convey peer list, content availability and status.=20 I think peer protocol and tracker protocol's message encodings can be = and should be similar. That will make implementing PPSP easier and reduce resource consumption in peer.=20 BR=20 Lichun =20 -------------------------------------------------------- ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this mail = is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to maintain secrecy = and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this communication to = others. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of = the message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. --Boundary_(ID_Inl7k6joYXAqP8bj6JI4jw) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Lichun,

We had discussion = at last meeting and also discussed at interim meeting at last = night.

Here is brief = conclusion of the discussion.

 

There is no = significant benefit by using HTTP as peer protocol. =

The reason to use = HTTP as tracker protocol is that we hope it=A1=AFs readable, and usually = it=A1=AFs c/s mode.

While = for Peer protocol, readability is not the as important as Tracker = protocol.

Besides, in peer = protocol, there is no clear role of client or server, every peer could = initiate a request. So HTTP may be not suitable in this = case.

 

I guess there is a = rough consensus that we should use binary in peer protocol. But I would = like to hear what the chairs think of. Do we get a rough consensus on = peer protocol encoding?

 

 

 

 

 

 

=

B= est Regards
Gu Yingjie

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: li.lichun1@zte.com.cn = [mailto:li.lichun1@zte.com.cn]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C229=C8=D5 = =C0=D6=C0=D611:36
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie Gu(yingjie); = 'ppsp'
=D6=F7=CC=E2: PPSP encoding

 


Hi = Yingjie,

In your = slides, tracker protocol uses XML encoding while peer protocol uses = binary encoding. Both peer protocol and tracker protocol provide = messages to convey peer list, content availability and = status.
I think peer = protocol and tracker protocol's message encodings can be and should be = similar. That will make implementing PPSP easier and reduce resource = consumption in peer.


BR
Lichun= 

 
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= --Boundary_(ID_Inl7k6joYXAqP8bj6JI4jw)-- From li.lichun1@zte.com.cn Thu Sep 29 00:46:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0BB21F8D1A for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.613 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.613 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.824, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_DOUBLE_IP_LOOSE=0.76, SARE_SUB_ENC_GB2312=1.345, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rkk4u5OZzIrK for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx5.zte.com.cn (mx6.zte.com.cn [95.130.199.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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bnRpdHkmbmJzcDt0byZuYnNwO3dob20mbmJzcDt0aGV5Jm5ic3A7YXJlJm5ic3A7YWRkcmVzc2Vk LiZuYnNwO0lmJm5ic3A7eW91Jm5ic3A7aGF2ZSZuYnNwO3JlY2VpdmVkJm5ic3A7dGhpcyZuYnNw O2VtYWlsJm5ic3A7aW4mbmJzcDtlcnJvciZuYnNwO3BsZWFzZSZuYnNwO25vdGlmeSZuYnNwO3Ro ZSZuYnNwO29yaWdpbmF0b3ImbmJzcDtvZiZuYnNwO3RoZSZuYnNwO21lc3NhZ2UuJm5ic3A7QW55 Jm5ic3A7dmlld3MmbmJzcDtleHByZXNzZWQmbmJzcDtpbiZuYnNwO3RoaXMmbmJzcDttZXNzYWdl Jm5ic3A7YXJlJm5ic3A7dGhvc2UmbmJzcDtvZiZuYnNwO3RoZSZuYnNwO2luZGl2aWR1YWwmbmJz cDtzZW5kZXIuDQpUaGlzJm5ic3A7bWVzc2FnZSZuYnNwO2hhcyZuYnNwO2JlZW4mbmJzcDtzY2Fu bmVkJm5ic3A7Zm9yJm5ic3A7dmlydXNlcyZuYnNwO2FuZCZuYnNwO1NwYW0mbmJzcDtieSZuYnNw O1pURSZuYnNwO0FudGktU3BhbSZuYnNwO3N5c3RlbS4NCjwvcHJlPg== --=_alternative 002B21724825791A_=-- From a.bakker@vu.nl Thu Sep 29 02:36:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D46721F8D53 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:36:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.728, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_OBFU_Q1=0.227] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7mKnoLaoIZp for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B3121F8D3B for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 02:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011B.vu.local (130.37.236.65) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:39:17 +0200 Received: from [130.161.211.249] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:39:21 +0200 Message-ID: <4E843D02.60304@cs.vu.nl> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:40:18 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110812 Thunderbird/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <4E79930E.5020509@cs.vu.nl> <4E83D533.5050007@mti-systems.com> <4E83DC40.3060300@mti-systems.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ppsp-reqs-04.txt X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:36:35 -0000 On 29/09/2011 05:06, ZongNing wrote: > > [ZN]: I mean dropping the "smart" term and using the SHOULDs. > I am not in favor of defining smart tracker by ourselves in requirement spec, as I haven't seen clear demarcation of simple tracker and smart tracker in industry (on the contrary, we do see clear role of peer and tracker in existing P2P applications). Please correct me, if anybody does see clear definition of smart tracker. Thanks. > I'm fine with that. Arno From a.bakker@vu.nl Thu Sep 29 06:16:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8D821F8D36 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 06:16:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.723 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.723 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.781, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tDSmUEgH8E4N for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 06:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C1D21F8D23 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 06:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011B.vu.local (130.37.236.65) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:19:08 +0200 Received: from [130.161.211.249] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:19:12 +0200 Message-ID: <4E84708A.6090408@cs.vu.nl> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:20:10 +0200 From: Arno Bakker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110812 Thunderbird/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: [ppsp] IETF 82: what day? X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:16:24 -0000 Hi when will it be known what day the PPSP meeting is at IETF 82? Thanks, Arno From rui.cruz@ieee-pt.org Thu Sep 29 07:52:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2CB21F8CEC for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.148 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.148 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBA7dss98Oan for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2C621F8CE4 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wyh21 with SMTP id 21so67344wyh.31 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.208.137 with SMTP id gc9mr12126826wbb.91.1317308126819; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:690:2100:1c:41d7:c1d:1090:812e? ([2001:690:2100:1c:41d7:c1d:1090:812e]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k26sm2820592wbo.16.2011.09.29.07.55.24 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Rui Cruz Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0A9688A1-EF87-4D33-A84C-E6FF23236783" From: Rui Cruz In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 15:55:22 +0100 Message-Id: <9E5BD23D-E141-4A0F-BFA1-EC4BF4369547@ieee.org> References: To: li.lichun1@zte.com.cn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: Rui Cruz , 'ppsp' Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP encoding X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 14:52:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0A9688A1-EF87-4D33-A84C-E6FF23236783 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Dear Yingjie, I tend to agree with Lichun in respect to the peer being both a serving = and a client agent, irrespective of the protocol used for their = signaling. I our implementation, reflected in our proposed draft, the peer is a = tiny HTTP server and client, implements the PPSP protocols for signaling = over HTTP, as well as the media transfer protocol is over HTTP, and we = are able to stream high quality media (including scalable media) even in = harsh network conditions.=20 --------------------------- Best Regards, Prof. Rui Santos Cruz Chairman IEEE Portugal Section Av. Prof. Dr. An=A8=AAbal Cavaco Silva, IST-TagusPark, Office 1-5, = 2744-016 Porto Salvo, Portugal +351 214 233 200 (ext 5044), +351.939 060 939 (mobile) rui.cruz@ieee.org=20 rui.s.cruz@ist.utl.pt sec.portugal@ieee.org www.ieee-pt.org Advancing technology for humanity. On 29/09/2011, at 08:48, li.lichun1@zte.com.cn wrote: >=20 > Hi Yingjie,=20 >=20 > I am not saying we should use HTTP to transport peer protocol = messages. I just suggest message encodings should be similar.=20 > But it will be good, if tracker protocol and peer protocol can use the = same transport protocol.=20 >=20 > A peer is both a server and a client to other peers, no matter using = HTTP-based peer protocol or not. A peer has to process incoming = requests, and also sends requests. A peer could be a HTTP server and = client at the same time if using HTTP-based peer protocol. Again, I am = not suggesting we should use or not use HTTP.=20 >=20 > Can we allow tracker/peer protocol to run on multiple transport = protocols as each transport protocol has its advantages?=20 >=20 >=20 > Why readability is important for tracker protocol, but not important = for peer protocol?=20 > I am not suggesting we should use txt encoding or binary encoding. I = just suggest message encodings should be the same type.=20 >=20 >=20 > BR=20 > Lichun >=20 >=20 > "Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" =D0=B4=D3=DA 2011-09-29 = 13:11:40: >=20 > > Hi Lichun,=20 > > We had discussion at last meeting and also discussed at interim=20 > > meeting at last night.=20 > > Here is brief conclusion of the discussion.=20 > > =20 > > There is no significant benefit by using HTTP as peer protocol.=20 > > The reason to use HTTP as tracker protocol is that we hope it=A1=AFs=20= > > readable, and usually it=A1=AFs c/s mode.=20 > > While for Peer protocol, readability is not the as important as=20 > > Tracker protocol.=20 > > Besides, in peer protocol, there is no clear role of client or=20 > > server, every peer could initiate a request. So HTTP may be not=20 > > suitable in this case.=20 > > =20 > > I guess there is a rough consensus that we should use binary in peer > > protocol. But I would like to hear what the chairs think of. Do we=20= > > get a rough consensus on peer protocol encoding?=20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > >=20 > > Best Regards > > Gu Yingjie=20 > > =20 > > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: li.lichun1@zte.com.cn = [mailto:li.lichun1@zte.com.cn]=20 > > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C229=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D611:36 > > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie Gu(yingjie); 'ppsp' > > =D6=F7=CC=E2: PPSP encoding=20 > > =20 > >=20 > > Hi Yingjie,=20 > >=20 > > In your slides, tracker protocol uses XML encoding while peer=20 > > protocol uses binary encoding. Both peer protocol and tracker=20 > > protocol provide messages to convey peer list, content availability=20= > > and status.=20 > > I think peer protocol and tracker protocol's message encodings can=20= > > be and should be similar. That will make implementing PPSP easier=20 > > and reduce resource consumption in peer.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > BR=20 > > Lichun=20 > > =20 > > --------------------------------------------------------=20 > > ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this=20= > > mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail=20 > > communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated=20= > > to maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents=20= > > of this communication to others.=20 > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and=20 > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please=20 > > notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed in this=20 > > message are those of the individual sender.=20 > > This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system.=20 > -------------------------------------------------------- > ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this = mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail = communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated to = maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents of this = communication to others. > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and = intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are = addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the = originator of the message. Any views expressed in this message are those = of the individual sender. > This message has been scanned for viruses and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam = system. > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp --Apple-Mail=_0A9688A1-EF87-4D33-A84C-E6FF23236783 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Dear = Yingjie,

I tend to agree with Lichun in respect to = the peer being both a serving and a client agent, irrespective of the = protocol used for their signaling.
I our implementation, = reflected in our proposed draft, the peer is a tiny HTTP server and = client, implements the PPSP protocols for signaling over HTTP, as well = as the media transfer protocol is over HTTP, and we are able to stream = high quality media (including scalable media) even in harsh network = conditions. 

---------------------------
Best = Regards,

Chairman
IEEE Portugal Section
Av. Prof. Dr. = An=A8=AAbal Cavaco Silva, IST-TagusPark, Office 1-5, 2744-016 = Porto Salvo, Portugal
+351 214 233 200 (ext 5044), +351.939 060 = 939 (mobile)
rui.cruz@ieee.org 
rui.s.cruz@ist.utl.pt
sec.portugal@ieee.org
www.ieee-pt.org
Advancing = technology for humanity.

On 29/09/2011, at 08:48, li.lichun1@zte.com.cn = wrote:


Hi Yingjie,

I am not saying we should use = HTTP to transport peer protocol messages. I just suggest message encodings = should be similar.
But it will be good, if tracker = protocol and peer protocol can use the same transport protocol.

A peer is both a server and a = client to other peers, no matter using HTTP-based peer protocol or not. A peer has to process incoming requests, and also sends requests. A peer could be a HTTP server and client at the same time if using HTTP-based peer = protocol. Again, I am not suggesting we should use or not use HTTP.

Can we allow tracker/peer = protocol to run on multiple transport protocols as each transport protocol has its advantages?


Why readability is important = for tracker protocol, but not important for peer protocol?
I am not suggesting we should = use txt encoding or binary encoding. I just suggest message encodings should be the same type.


BR
Lichun

"Yingjie Gu(yingjie)" <guyingjie@huawei.com> =D0=B4=D3=DA 2011-09-29 13:11:40:

> Hi Lichun,
> We had discussion at last meeting and also = discussed at interim
> meeting at last night.
> Here is brief conclusion of the = discussion.
>  
> There is no significant benefit by using = HTTP as peer protocol.
> The reason to use HTTP as tracker protocol = is that we hope it=A1=AFs
> readable, and usually it=A1=AFs c/s mode.
> While for Peer protocol, readability is = not the as important as
> Tracker protocol.
> Besides, in peer protocol, there is no = clear role of client or
> server, every peer could initiate a request. So HTTP may be not =
> suitable in this case.
>  
> I guess there is a rough consensus that we = should use binary in peer
> protocol. But I would like to hear what the chairs think of. Do we
> get a rough consensus on peer protocol encoding?
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
> Best Regards
> Gu Yingjie
>  
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: li.lichun1@zte.com.cn = [mailto:li.lichun1@zte.com.cn]
> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2011=C4=EA9=D4=C229=C8=D5 =C0=D6=C0=D611:36=
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Yingjie Gu(yingjie); 'ppsp'
> =D6=F7=CC=E2: PPSP encoding
>  
>
> Hi Yingjie,
>
> In your slides, tracker protocol uses XML encoding while peer
> protocol uses binary encoding. Both peer protocol and tracker
> protocol provide messages to convey peer list, content availability
> and status.
> I think peer protocol and tracker protocol's message encodings can
> be and should be similar. That will make implementing PPSP easier
> and reduce resource consumption in peer.
>
>
> BR
> Lichun
>  
> = --------------------------------------------------------
> ZTE Information Security Notice: The = information contained in this
> mail is solely property of the sender's organization. This mail =
> communication is confidential. Recipients named above are obligated
> to maintain secrecy and are not permitted to disclose the contents
> of this communication to others.
> This email and any files transmitted with = it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom = they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> notify the originator of the message. Any views expressed in this
> message are those of the individual sender.
> This message has been scanned for viruses = and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system. 
--------------------------------------------------------
=
ZTE Information Security Notice: The information&=
nbsp;contained in this mail is solely proper=
ty of the sender's organization. This mail&n=
bsp;communication is confidential. Recipients named&nb=
sp;above are obligated to maintain secrecy a=
nd are not permitted to disclose the co=
ntents of this communication to others.
=
This email and any files transmitted with&nb=
sp;it are confidential and intended solely f=
or the use of the individual or entity&=
nbsp;to whom they are addressed. If you =
;have received this email in error please&nb=
sp;notify the originator of the message. Any=
 views expressed in this message are th=
ose of the individual sender.
=
This message has been scanned for viruses&nb=
sp;and Spam by ZTE Anti-Spam system.
_______________________________________________
ppsp mailing = list
ppsp@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/ppsp

= --Apple-Mail=_0A9688A1-EF87-4D33-A84C-E6FF23236783-- From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Sep 29 18:35:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5AA21F8C60 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:35:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.313, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5XvQJM2Fhfgl for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD02221F8C5D for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A62E79A; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:38:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E220E797; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:38:20 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.61]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011093009381904-2339 ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:38:19 +0800 Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:38:11 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "arno@cs.vu.nl" , "ppsp@ietf.org" References: <4E84708A.6090408@cs.vu.nl> Message-ID: <201109300938115054973@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-30 09:38:19, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-30 09:38:20, Serialize complete at 2011-09-30 09:38:20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon006004234021_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18416.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--22.165-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--22.165-7.0-31-10;No--22.165-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Subject: Re: [ppsp] IETF 82: what day? 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Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:37:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.031 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.882, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l9o9ozGv2RLN for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4B121F8C6F for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ggnk3 with SMTP id k3so137190ggn.31 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:40:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=08/pcT8CEGtYZUbIPjO5lRoLapchY5p6nccPoxOs5eU=; b=q6s1udWk+RWAGdOAj6Zv8UA37VOKSXYCKhtc4Rldmcem4i0/S8LqXGN7qAWy2639ze wAVcUcV/LgVtbFanCIq+FEUPs7QgybuJAtf1x0e5985oQpibHPyjH8EoF7Eym2wPSJoZ WyezpXs4SetdpdM+aP9CBEZK5C7USKItx2GKA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.14.3 with SMTP id 3mr11090907ybn.425.1317346841702; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.150.3 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:40:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201109300938115054973@chinamobile.com> References: <4E84708A.6090408@cs.vu.nl> <201109300938115054973@chinamobile.com> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 21:40:41 -0400 Message-ID: From: Marshall Eubanks To: zhangyunfei Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] IETF 82: what day? X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 01:37:51 -0000 2011/9/29 zhangyunfei : > The request for PPSP meeting in IETF 82 has been applied waiting for IESG > approval. The primary date will be published on about mid of Oct. > Please bear and mind that IETF schedules are subject to change, up to and including the week of the meeting. Regards Marshall > BR > Yunfei > ________________________________ > zhangyunfei > 2011-09-30 > ________________________________ > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Arno Bakker > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2011-09-29 21:19:19 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA ppsp@ietf.org > =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA > =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ppsp] IETF 82: what day? > > Hi > > when will it be known what day the PPSP meeting is at IETF 8= 2? > > Thanks, > Arno > > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > _______________________________________________ > ppsp mailing list > ppsp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ppsp > > From zhangyunfei@chinamobile.com Thu Sep 29 18:40:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671DB21F8C87 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:40:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.303, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ZGBDkc84DGC for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (imss.chinamobile.com [221.130.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6935521F8C85 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0A1E799; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:43:34 +0800 (CST) Received: from mail.chinamobile.com (unknown [10.1.28.22]) by cmhqproxy1.chinamobile.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2CEE797; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:43:34 +0800 (CST) Received: from zyf-PC ([10.2.0.61]) by mail.chinamobile.com (Lotus Domino Release 6.5.6) with ESMTP id 2011093009433235-2470 ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:43:32 +0800 Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:43:25 +0800 From: "zhangyunfei" To: "Marshall Eubanks" References: <4E84708A.6090408@cs.vu.nl> <201109300938115054973@chinamobile.com> Message-ID: <201109300943253393344@chinamobile.com> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 2, 103, 20 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-30 09:43:32, Serialize by Router on jtgsml01/servers/cmcc(Release 6.5.6|March 06, 2007) at 2011-09-30 09:43:33, Serialize complete at 2011-09-30 09:43:33 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon422074000127_=====" X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.8231-6.8.0.1017-18416.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--29.135-7.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--29.135-7.0-31-10;No--29.135-7.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No;No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Cc: "ppsp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [ppsp] IETF 82: what day? X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 01:40:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon422074000127_===== Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Q29ycmVjdGx5IQ0KDQoNCg0KDQp6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaQ0KMjAxMS0wOS0zMA0KDQoNCg0Kt6K8/sjL o7ogTWFyc2hhbGwgRXViYW5rcw0Kt6LLzcqxvOSjuiAyMDExLTA5LTMwIDA5OjQwOjQ5DQrK1bz+ yMujuiB6aGFuZ3l1bmZlaQ0Ks63LzaO6IGFybm9AY3MudnUubmw7IHBwc3BAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3 zOKjuiBSZTogW3Bwc3BdIElFVEYgODI6IHdoYXQgZGF5Pw0KDQoyMDExLzkvMjkgIHpoYW5neXVu ZmVpICAgPHpoYW5neXVuZmVpQGNoaW5hbW9iaWxlLmNvbSA+Og0KPiAgVGhlICByZXF1ZXN0ICBm b3IgIFBQU1AgIG1lZXRpbmcgIGluICBJRVRGICA4MiAgaGFzICBiZWVuICBhcHBsaWVkICB3YWl0 aW5nICBmb3IgIElFU0cNCj4gIGFwcHJvdmFsLiAgVGhlICBwcmltYXJ5ICBkYXRlICB3aWxsICBi 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aW5nICZuYnNwOyAmbmJzcDtsaXN0PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPiZndDsgJm5ic3A7cHBzcEBpZXRmLm9y ZzwvRElWPg0KPERJVj4mZ3Q7ICZuYnNwO2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vcHBzcDwvRElWPg0KPERJVj4mZ3Q7ICZuYnNwO19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fPC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPiZndDsgJm5ic3A7cHBzcCAmbmJz cDttYWlsaW5nICZuYnNwO2xpc3Q8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jmd0OyAmbmJzcDtwcHNwQGlldGYub3Jn PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPiZndDsgJm5ic3A7aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9wcHNwPC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPiZndDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jmd0OzwvRElWPjwvRk9OVD48 L0RJVj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --=====003_Dragon422074000127_=====-- From a.bakker@vu.nl Fri Sep 30 01:23:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ppsp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9119D21F8C0D for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 01:23:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.783 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.720, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LAepwuCLvAHo for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 01:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin.vu.nl (mailin.vu.nl [130.37.164.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F24121F8C0B for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 01:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PEXHB011B.vu.local (130.37.236.65) by mailin.vu.nl (130.37.164.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 10:26:17 +0200 Received: from [192.168.0.101] (130.37.238.20) by mails.vu.nl (130.37.236.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.218.12; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 10:26:22 +0200 Message-ID: <4E857D1D.5030706@cs.vu.nl> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 10:26:05 +0200 From: Arno Bakker Organization: Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110921 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <9E5BD23D-E141-4A0F-BFA1-EC4BF4369547@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: <9E5BD23D-E141-4A0F-BFA1-EC4BF4369547@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010204060400030300090808" X-Originating-IP: [130.37.238.20] Subject: Re: [ppsp] PPSP encoding X-BeenThere: ppsp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: arno@cs.vu.nl List-Id: discussing to draw up peer to peer streaming protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 08:23:31 -0000 --------------010204060400030300090808 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rui Cruz wrote: > > I our implementation, reflected in our proposed draft, the peer is a tiny HTTP server and client, implements the > > PPSP protocols for signaling over HTTP, as well as the media transfer protocol is over HTTP, and we are able > > to stream high quality media (including scalable media) even in harsh network conditions. Hi I really question whether HTTP is the right choice. First, this means the system uses at least 2 TCP connections per pair of peers, where one would suffice to get bidirectional traffic. Moreover, one can question (and we do) whether TCP is the best suited transport layer protocol. It has fixed congestion control, so improvements like IETF's LEDBAT (=manage user's upload bandwidth such that P2P moves out of the way when the user e.g. uploads photos) are not possible. Furthermore, NAT traversal is complex, there is a high per-connection memory footprint and finally, it pays a price to offer facilities (in-order and reliable) that you do not necessarily need in a P2P protocol. Hence, we have a strong preference for UDP. As put forward at the meeting, we would really like to hear people's opinions on whether they prefer transport over "raw UDP" or would like PPSP to be a profile of RTP, in the same way as Secure RTP. Like SRTP i.e., swift would add a layer below RTP that protects the content, and does P2P signalling, but which is transparent to the RTP consumer. Regards, Arno P.S. apologies for double post --------------010204060400030300090808 Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
Rui Cruz wrote:

> I our implementation, reflected in our proposed draft, the peer is a tiny HTTP server and client, implements the 
> PPSP protocols for signaling over HTTP, as well as the media transfer protocol is over HTTP, and we are able 
> to stream high quality media (including scalable media) even in harsh network conditions. 

Hi 

I really question whether HTTP is the right choice. First, this means the system uses at least 2 TCP connections 
per pair of peers, where one would suffice to get bidirectional traffic. Moreover, one can question (and we do) 
whether TCP is the best suited transport layer protocol. It has fixed congestion control, so improvements like 
IETF's LEDBAT (=manage user's upload bandwidth such that P2P moves out of the way when the user e.g. 
uploads photos) are not possible. Furthermore, NAT traversal is complex, there is a high per-connection memory 
footprint and finally, it pays a price to offer facilities (in-order and reliable) that you do not necessarily 
need in a P2P protocol.

Hence, we have a strong preference for UDP. As put forward at the meeting, we would really like to hear
people's opinions on whether they prefer transport over "raw UDP" or would like PPSP to be a profile of RTP,
in the same way as Secure RTP. Like SRTP i.e., swift would add a layer below RTP that protects the content, 
and does P2P signalling, but which is transparent to the RTP consumer.

Regards,
      Arno

P.S. apologies for double post
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