From ajs@crankycanuck.ca Wed Apr 13 07:46:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED7CE079D for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dz-ZZmgzkkQx for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610F1E079C for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shinkuro.com (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AC0711ECB420 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:46:50 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:46:49 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: precis@ietf.org Message-ID: <20110413144648.GG24471@crankycanuck.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: [precis] Yet a new wrinkle on normalization forms! X-BeenThere: precis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:46:51 -0000 Dear colleagues, A spam just made it through my filters, and I think it provides us with something interesting to contemplate with respect to Unicode normalization. Its subject? "Monetising NFC 2011-2016 (Report)" Clearly, this suggests a new issue for the problem statement: what do we do when NFC changes in 2017? Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From barryleiba@computer.org Wed Apr 20 15:52:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E23E0791; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:52:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f6tQwaqEuGiz; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED9BE0765; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ool-457c2d3b.dyn.optonline.net [69.124.45.59]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0LJZ005AM3IOVEL0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:51:59 -0400 From: Barry Leiba To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Message-id: <7000F5E5D27FA961BE7D9EC6@uranus> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:16:40 -0700 Cc: public-iri@w3.org, draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis@tools.ietf.org, ima@ietf.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no, precis@ietf.org Subject: [precis] Call for adoption of draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis as an APPSAWG document X-BeenThere: precis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <> List-Id: Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 22:52:06 -0000 Paul Hoffman and John Klensin have undertaken to update RFC 3536, which specified terminology for use in internationalization-related documents and discussions. The editors, appsawg chairs, and Applications Area directors think the document needs broad review, and propose to make it an appsawg document. You can find the document here: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis/ The editors will soon submit an updated version, and await a decision on accepting the document into appsawg before doing that. We ask that anyone with a stake in internationalization review the current version and state any objections to making this an appsawg document by 29 April. You may, or course, also send comments on the document at this point to the editors and/or the apps-discuss list. Remember that there are changes queued, so you might bring up points that they're already planning to change/correct. The reply-to on this message is set to the apps-discuss list . Please put all responses and discussion there. Barry, appsawg chair From jefsey@jefsey.com Thu Apr 21 04:49:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D253EE06CF; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:49:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.834 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.765, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xkygD8apeAcd; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from montage2.altserver.com (montage2.altserver.com [72.34.52.22]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945B0E0698; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 18.109-227-89.dsl.completel.net ([89.227.109.18]:60868 helo=jfcmsc.jefsey.com) by montage2.altserver.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QCsNr-0004v5-LK; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 04:49:20 -0700 Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20110421111550.059fe118@jefsey.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:49:31 +0200 To: iucg@ietf.org From: jefsey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - montage2.altserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org, precis@ietf.org, public-iri@w3.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no, ima@ietf.org, draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis@tools.ietf.org Subject: [precis] terminology X-BeenThere: precis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:49:24 -0000 Dear IUsers, Barry Leiba, WG/APPSAWG Chair has sent the following most important mail for us: >"Paul Hoffman and John Klensin have undertaken to update RFC 3536, >which specified terminology for use in internationalization-related >documents and discussions. The editors, appsawg chairs, and >Applications Area directors think the document needs broad review, >and propose to make it an appsawg document. >You can find the document here: >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis/ >The editors will soon submit an updated version, and await a >decision on accepting the document into appsawg before doing >that. We ask that anyone with a stake in internationalization >review the current version and state any objections to making this >an appsawg document by 29 April. >You may, or course, also send comments on the document at this point >to the editors and/or the apps-discuss list. Remember that there >are changes queued, so you might bring up points that they're >already planning to change/correct. >The reply-to on this message is set to the apps-discuss list >. Please put all responses and discussion there. This terminology is obviously going to be the mutual understanding bridge between the IETF and the IUTF communities. http://iucg.org/wiki/Wiki_RFC_3536bis is the traditional wiki working transcript (unfinished as yet) of the proposed draft. This is in line with my own I_D on orthotypography: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iucg-idna2008-orthotypography-00 I suggest thet our target should be : 1. to make sure RFC 3536bis by APPSAWG is in line with our own understanding of the terms in our own working contexts (IDNA2008, ML-DNS, IUI, EST). 2. to build our own Internet extension section to document in a similar manner the emergent IUse terminology. This section should not document any concept than the way we read and use the existing "Internal Internet" technology (i.e. no bit change). 3. to continue building in contnuity our own dictionnary of the new IUI and Intersem (semiotic/semantic Intercomprehension network) stratum. Best. jfc NB: due to personal constraints that should now progressively reduce I was not able to sustain my post-IDNA2008 endeavour as I planned it. Some terminology used in this mail is not therefore as common and supported by operational prototypes as our little group hoped. Thank you to read the used acronyms/terms as follows: - IDNA2008: as documented by RFC 5890 to 5895 - ML-DNS: multilayer DNS (of which layer 1 is the Internal Internet DNS, layer 2 is IDNA2008). - IUI: Intelligent Use Interface (Internet Use Interface from an Internet perspective). i.e. a generalization of principle introduced by Paul Hoffman and Pete Resnick in RFC 5895 and a stable optional response to problems discussed by the IAB in RFC 6055 - IUse: an emergent community interested in an open general Intelligent Use of the world digital ecosystem (whatever the multitechnological convergence). - EST: Extended System Theory, a glogalization of the General System Theory which includes networking and interfaces and is necessary to better read the IETF RFCs in an IUse perspective. - IUTF: Intelligent Use Task Force, TF under formation further to the responses to the appeals to IESG and IAB following the successfull, but not documented yet as such, introduction of the principle of subsidiarity (IDNA2008) as the third internet architectural principle (RFC 1958: principle of permanent change, RFC 3439: principle of simplicity). I note that subsidiairity should come with suppleance (I did not found so far an English equivalent for the core to support peripheral difficulties) and precaution. - Dictionnary (http://iucg.org/wiki/Dictionnary): this IUCG project to integrate digital ecosystem convergence and ALFA (Free Acrchitecture) words. From klensin@jck.com Thu Apr 21 05:31:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DBD3E071B; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 05:31:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NixfpDviCjVU; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 05:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A007E070F; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 05:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1QCt2n-0009Kv-Sm; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:31:38 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:31:36 -0400 From: klensin@jck.com, john-ietf@jck.com To: jefsey , iucg@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20110421111550.059fe118@jefsey.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20110421111550.059fe118@jefsey.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:58:06 -0700 Cc: public-iri@w3.org, draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis@tools.ietf.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no, precis@ietf.org, ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [precis] terminology X-BeenThere: precis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: apps-discuss@ietf.org List-Id: Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:31:40 -0000 (top post) Jefsey, Thanks. The notice was already forward to a few other lists, which I hope I have trimmed. Any discussion of the appropriateness of doing this should continue on the apps-discuss list, as requested by Barry, and not cross-posted. I would prefer that any substantive comments be deferred until after AppsAWG makes a decision about discussion venue and then sent to their list (if they decide to take the document on). In the interim, substantive or editorial comments may be sent to Paul and myself at draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis@tools.ietf.org if needed. Neither he nor I have time to track multiple lists for comments so comments to random lists, or long distribution lists are likely to get lost -- please, everyone, don't do a multiple posting and then complain that your comments were lost. Substantive comment for planning purposes: Whether it ends up being posted as draft-ietf-appsawg-rfc3536bis-00 or as draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis-02 (with the version after that posted as draft-ietf-appsawg-rfc3536-00), the main substantive change between that version and the current draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis-01 will be the addition of an extended description of the term "variant" (used in domain name contexts). Wisely or not, the use of that term in various context has been expanded significantly beyond the definition in RFC 3743. Those whose work involves that term, or notions of "equivalence" in domain names, will want to look at the description carefully. Each new version of course also includes a selection of editorial improvements and less significant fixes. john p.s. I note that the "the traditional wiki working transcript" referred to in your note contains several significant errors and that we are unlikely to be able to have a useful discussion or incorporate changes based on that version. I strongly suggest that people use http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis/ as the relevant discussion/ reading version instead. --On Thursday, April 21, 2011 13:49 +0200 jefsey wrote: > Dear IUsers, > Barry Leiba, WG/APPSAWG Chair has sent the following most > important mail for us: > >> "Paul Hoffman and John Klensin have undertaken to update RFC >> 3536, which specified terminology for use in >> internationalization-related documents and discussions. The >> editors, appsawg chairs, and Applications Area directors >> think the document needs broad review, and propose to make >> it an appsawg document. >> You can find the document here: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis/ >> The editors will soon submit an updated version, and await a >> decision on accepting the document into appsawg before doing >> that. We ask that anyone with a stake in >> internationalization review the current version and state >> any objections to making this an appsawg document by 29 >> April. >> You may, or course, also send comments on the document at >> this point to the editors and/or the apps-discuss list. >> Remember that there are changes queued, so you might bring >> up points that they're already planning to change/correct. >> The reply-to on this message is set to the apps-discuss list >> . Please put all responses and >> discussion there. > > This terminology is obviously going to be the mutual > understanding bridge between the IETF and the IUTF > communities. >... From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Thu Apr 21 13:54:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: precis@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35832E0722; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:54:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.054 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.054 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.545, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CG8TrwXdJuTJ; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2001:4870:a30c:41::81]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F754E06B9; Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sn80.proper.com (sn80.proper.com [75.101.18.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p3LKsSV9015073 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:54:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <7000F5E5D27FA961BE7D9EC6@uranus> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:54:28 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B50401F-D2C9-42F1-9D61-D4B9A836DBEF@vpnc.org> References: <7000F5E5D27FA961BE7D9EC6@uranus> To: Apps Discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:58:06 -0700 Cc: public-iri@w3.org, precis@ietf.org, draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis@tools.ietf.org, ima@ietf.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no Subject: Re: [precis] [apps-discuss] Call for adoption of draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis as an APPSAWG document X-BeenThere: precis@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 20:54:36 -0000 On a related note, John and I have issued the -02 with a few fixes, = including a discussion of the always-popular "variant". See = . --Paul Hoffman=