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Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 11:30:33 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: [precis] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report-00.txt
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Of interest...


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report-00.txt
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 08:11:38 -0700
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org

A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.


    Title         : precis framework implementation report
    Author(s)     : T. NEMOTO, et al
    Filename      : draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report
    Pages         : 9
    Date          : July 5, 2012

   This document reports implementation experience of precis framework
   [I-D.ietf-precis-framework] for SASLprepbis
   [I-D.melnikov-precis-saslprepbis] and findings from the experience.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.




From t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp  Thu Jul  5 21:14:05 2012
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From: Takahiro Nemoto <t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp>
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To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [precis] I-D ACTION:draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report-00.txt
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Dear Peter-san and all,

Thank you for introducing our I-D. Please read and=20
give your comments/suggestions.

Regards,

Nemo

--
Takahiro Nemoto
t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp



On 2012/07/06, at 2:30, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> Of interest...
>=20
>=20
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: I-D =
ACTION:draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report-00.txt
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 08:11:38 -0700
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>=20
> A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>=20
>=20
>    Title         : precis framework implementation report
>    Author(s)     : T. NEMOTO, et al
>    Filename      : draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report
>    Pages         : 9
>    Date          : July 5, 2012
>=20
>   This document reports implementation experience of precis framework
>   [I-D.ietf-precis-framework] for SASLprepbis
>   [I-D.melnikov-precis-saslprepbis] and findings from the experience.
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implemen=
t-report-00.txt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> precis mailing list
> precis@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/precis


--Apple-Mail=_27697307-036F-4177-A629-3E76C1137F35
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; =
">Dear Peter-san and all,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal =
normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; =
">Thank you for introducing our I-D.&nbsp;Please read =
and&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Helvetica; ">give your comments/suggestions.</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; =
min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal =
normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Regards,</div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; =
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Helvetica; ">Nemo</div><div><br></div>--<br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div>Takahiro =
Nemoto</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp">t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp</a></div><=
div><br></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On 2012/07/06, at 2:30, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Of =
interest...<br><br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: =
I-D =
ACTION:draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report-00.txt<br>Date: =
Thu, 05 Jul 2012 08:11:38 -0700<br>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</a><br>R=
eply-To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>T=
o: <a =
href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><br><br>A =
new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts<br>directories.<br><br><br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Title =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: precis framework =
implementation report<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Author(s) =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: T. NEMOTO, et al<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Filename &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pages =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: 9<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Date =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: July 5, =
2012<br><br> &nbsp;&nbsp;This document reports implementation experience =
of precis framework<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;[I-D.ietf-precis-framework] for =
SASLprepbis<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;[I-D.melnikov-precis-saslprepbis] and =
findings from the experience.<br><br>A URL for this Internet-Draft =
is:<br><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nemoto-precis-framework-=
implement-report-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nemoto-=
precis-framework-implement-report-00.txt</a><br><br>Internet-Drafts are =
also available by anonymous FTP =
at:<br>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/<br><br>Below is the data =
which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader<br>implementation to =
automatically retrieve the ASCII version of =
the<br>Internet-Draft.<br><br><br><br>____________________________________=
___________<br>precis mailing =
list<br>precis@ietf.org<br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/precis<br=
></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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Subject: [precis] Fw: NomCom 2012-13 Call for Volunteers
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FYI

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 14:15:33 -0700
From: NomCom Chair <nomcom-chair@ietf.org>
To: IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Subject: NomCom 2012-13 Call for Volunteers


The IETF nominating committee process for 2012-13 has begun. The IETF
nominating committee appoints folks to fill the open slots on the
IAOC, the IAB, and the IESG. The 10 nominating committee members are
selected randomly from a pool of volunteers. The more volunteers, the
better chance we have of choosing a random yet representative cross
section of the IETF population.  The details of the operation of the
nomcom can be found in RFC 3777.

To be eligible, volunteers for the nomcom need to have attended 3 of
the past 5 IETF meetings as of the time this announcement goes out.
That is, 3 meetings from IETF 79 (Beijing) - IETF 83 (Paris). If you
qualify, and if you will not be seeking appointment to any of the open
positions that this nomcom will be filling, please consider
volunteering.

The list of people whose terms end with the March 2013 IETF meeting,
and thus the positions for which the nominating committee is
responsible for filling, are as follows:

IAOC:
--------
Dave Crocker

IAB:
--------
Alissa Cooper
Joel Halpern
David Kessens
Danny McPherson
Jon Peterson
Dave Thaler

IESG:
--------
Russ Housley (General Area)
Pete Resnick (Applications Area)
Ralph Droms (Internet Area)
Ronald Bonica (Operations and Management Area)
Robert Sparks (Real-Time Applications and Infrastructure Area)
Adrian Farrel (Routing Area)
Stephen Farrell (Security Area)
Wesley Eddy (Transport Area)

The primary activity for this nomcom will begin in August 2012 and
should be completed in January 2013. The nomcom will be collecting
requirements from the community, as well as talking to candidates and
obtaining feedback from community members about candidates. There will
be regularly scheduled conference calls to ensure progress. Thus,
being a nomcom member does require some time commitment.

Please volunteer by sending an email before 11:59 pm EDT (UTC - 4
hours) August 5, 2012 as follows:

To: mlepinski.ietf@gmail.com
Subject: Nomcom 2012-13 Volunteer

Please include the following information in the body:

<Your Full Name>  // As you enter in the IETF Registration Form,
                    // First/Given name followed by Last/Family Name
<Current Primary Affiliation>
                // typically what goes in the Company field
                //  in the IETF Registration Form
[<all email addresses used to Register for the past 5 IETF meetings>]
<Preferred email address>  //
<Telephone number>         // For confirmation if selected

Please expect an email response from me within 3 business days stating
whether or not you are qualified.  If you don't receive a response,
please re-send your email with the tag "RESEND:" added to the subject
line.

If you are not yet sure you would like to volunteer, please consider
that nomcom members play a very important role in shaping the
leadership of the IETF.  Ensuring the leadership of the IETF is fair
and balanced and comprised of those who can lead the IETF in the right
direction is an important responsibility that rests on the IETF
participants at large. Volunteering for the nomcom is a good way of
contributing toward that goal.

I will be publishing a more detailed timetable for nomcom activities,
as well as details of the randomness seeds to be used for the RFC 3797
selection process, within the next couple weeks.

Thank you,
Matthew Lepinski
mlepinski.ietf@gmail.com
nomcom-chair@ietf.org


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jul  9 14:28:41 2012
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Preparation and Comparison of Internation=
alized Strings Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Stringprep Revision and PRECIS Problem Statement
	Author(s)       : Marc Blanchet
                          Andrew Sullivan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06.txt
	Pages           : 41
	Date            : 2012-07-09

Abstract:
   If a protocol expects to compare two strings and is prepared only for
   those strings to be ASCII, then using Unicode codepoints in those
   string requires they be prepared somehow.  Internationalizing Domain
   Names in Applications (here called IDNA2003) defined and used
   Stringprep and Nameprep.  Other protocols subsequently defined
   Stringprep profiles.  A new approach different from Stringprep and
   Nameprep is used for a revision of IDNA2003 (called IDNA2008).  Other
   Stringprep profiles need to be similarly updated or a replacement of
   Stringprep needs to be designed.  This document outlines the issues
   to be faced by those designing a Stringprep replacement.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06

A diff from previous version is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From ajs@crankycanuck.ca  Mon Jul  9 14:30:47 2012
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Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 17:31:09 -0400
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
To: precis@ietf.org
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Dear colleagues,

Your editors believe that this version addresses all comments received
during WGLC.  Thanks for the comments!

Best,

A

On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 02:28:40PM -0700, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title           : Stringprep Revision and PRECIS Problem Statement
> 	Author(s)       : Marc Blanchet
>                           Andrew Sullivan
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06.txt
> 	Pages           : 41
> 	Date            : 2012-07-09
> 
> Abstract:
>    If a protocol expects to compare two strings and is prepared only for
>    those strings to be ASCII, then using Unicode codepoints in those
>    string requires they be prepared somehow.  Internationalizing Domain
>    Names in Applications (here called IDNA2003) defined and used
>    Stringprep and Nameprep.  Other protocols subsequently defined
>    Stringprep profiles.  A new approach different from Stringprep and
>    Nameprep is used for a revision of IDNA2003 (called IDNA2008).  Other
>    Stringprep profiles need to be similarly updated or a replacement of
>    Stringprep needs to be designed.  This document outlines the issues
>    to be faced by those designing a Stringprep replacement.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement
> 
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06
> 
> A diff from previous version is available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> precis mailing list
> precis@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/precis

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@crankycanuck.ca

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Mon Jul  9 16:49:58 2012
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Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 16:43:58 -0600
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Looks good to me!

On 7/9/12 3:31 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> Your editors believe that this version addresses all comments received
> during WGLC.  Thanks for the comments!
> 
> Best,
> 
> A
> 
> On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 02:28:40PM -0700, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>>  This draft is a work item of the Preparation and Comparison of Internationalized Strings Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>> 	Title           : Stringprep Revision and PRECIS Problem Statement
>> 	Author(s)       : Marc Blanchet
>>                           Andrew Sullivan
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06.txt
>> 	Pages           : 41
>> 	Date            : 2012-07-09
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    If a protocol expects to compare two strings and is prepared only for
>>    those strings to be ASCII, then using Unicode codepoints in those
>>    string requires they be prepared somehow.  Internationalizing Domain
>>    Names in Applications (here called IDNA2003) defined and used
>>    Stringprep and Nameprep.  Other protocols subsequently defined
>>    Stringprep profiles.  A new approach different from Stringprep and
>>    Nameprep is used for a revision of IDNA2003 (called IDNA2008).  Other
>>    Stringprep profiles need to be similarly updated or a replacement of
>>    Stringprep needs to be designed.  This document outlines the issues
>>    to be faced by those designing a Stringprep replacement.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement
>>
>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06
>>
>> A diff from previous version is available at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-06
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> precis mailing list
>> precis@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/precis
> 


-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/





From yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp  Thu Jul 12 19:08:48 2012
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From: Yoshiro YONEYA <yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp>
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Subject: [precis] Fw: I-D Action: draft-yoneya-precis-mappings-02.txt
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Dear all,

Nemoto-san and I updated mappings document.  Your comments and suggestions 
are very much welcome :-)

Regards,

-- 
Yoshiro YONEYA <yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp>

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:01:40 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action: draft-yoneya-precis-mappings-02.txt



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


	Title           : Mapping characters for precis classes
	Author(s)       : Yoshiro YONEYA
                          Takahiro NEMOTO
	Filename        : draft-yoneya-precis-mappings-02.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2012-07-12

Abstract:
   Preparation and comparison of internationalized strings ("precis")
   framework [I-D.ietf-precis-framework] is defining several classes of
   strings for preparation and comparison.  In the document, case
   mapping is defined because many of protocols handle case sensitive or
   case insensitive string comparison and therefore preparation of
   string is mandatory.  As described in IDNA mapping [RFC5895] and
   precis problem statement [I-D.ietf-precis-problem-statement],
   mappings in internationalized strings are not limited to case, but
   also width, delimiters and/or other specials are taken into
   consideration.  This document is a guideline for authors of protocol
   profiles of precis framework and describes the mappings that must be
   considered between receiving user input and passing permitted code
   points to internationalized protocols.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yoneya-precis-mappings

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yoneya-precis-mappings-02

A diff from previous version is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-yoneya-precis-mappings-02


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the Preparation and Comparison of Internation=
alized Strings Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : PRECIS Framework: Preparation and Comparison of Internat=
ionalized Strings in Application Protocols
	Author(s)       : Peter Saint-Andre
                          Marc Blanchet
	Filename        : draft-ietf-precis-framework-04.txt
	Pages           : 65
	Date            : 2012-07-16

Abstract:
   Application protocols using Unicode code points in protocol strings
   need to prepare such strings in order to perform comparison
   operations (e.g., for purposes of authentication or authorization).
   This document defines a framework enabling application protocols to
   handle various classes of strings in a way that depends on the
   properties of Unicode code points and that is agile with respect to
   versions of Unicode; as a result, this framework provides a more
   sustainable approach to the handling of internationalized strings
   than the previous framework, known as Stringprep (RFC 3454).  A
   specification that reuses this framework can either directly use the
   base string classes or subclass the base string classes as needed.
   This framework takes an approach similar to the revised
   internationalized domain names in applications (IDNA) technology (RFC
   5890, RFC 5891, RFC 5892, RFC 5893, RFC 5894) and thus adheres to the
   high-level design goals described in RFC 4690, albeit for application
   technologies other than the Domain Name System (DNS).  This document
   obsoletes RFC 3454.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-framework

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-framework-04

A diff from previous version is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-precis-framework-04


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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On 7/5/12 10:14 PM, Takahiro Nemoto wrote:
> Dear Peter-san and all,
> 
> Thank you for introducing our I-D. Please read and give your
> comments/suggestions.

First, thank you for working on this document.

I agree with you that "the file describing derived property value
table for precis should be generated". It is also good to know that
you have worked on an implementation that generates the tables. I am
also working on an implementation (unfortunately I did not have time
to finish it before IETF 84, but I plan to do that in August) and
would like to "compare notes" with you. I recognize that the tables in
draft-ietf-precis-framework are quite likely incorrect in some places
since I created them by hand, so I will work to make more accurate
tables next month.

You mention the need to do string validity checking, for example to
make sure that string length is non-zero. Do you think that is a
PRECIS check or a check at the application layer? I've always thought
this is something that the application would do, not PRECIS.

As to special mappings like "Map to SPACE" and "Map to Nothing", it
seems to me that in a post-stringprep system we can handle those by
more carefully defining the string classes.

You make a good point about the order of processing (normalization
then validity in IDNA2008 vs. validity then normalization in
SASLprep-bis). It does seem preferable to have a consistent order.
Let's make sure we have discussion about this at the meeting two weeks
from now.

Peter

- -- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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On 7/16/12 3:16 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories. This draft is a work item of the Preparation and
> Comparison of Internationalized Strings Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> Title           : PRECIS Framework: Preparation and Comparison of
> Internationalized Strings in Application Protocols Author(s)       :
> Peter Saint-Andre Marc Blanchet Filename        :
> draft-ietf-precis-framework-04.txt

This is a minor update. Aside from small editorial fixes, the only
changes are:

1. Added an explicit open issue about spaces in usernames and passwords
(for saslprepbis).

2. Added two additional IANA registries: one for base classes (with a
policy of "RFC Required") and another for subclasses of the base classes
(with a policy of "First Come, First Served"). I debated whether to
specify a less formal policy for the base class registry (e.g.,
"Specification Required"), but given the seriousness of adding a new
base class I think "RFC Required" is more appropriate. Let's discuss.

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

From t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp  Wed Jul 18 03:23:49 2012
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From: Takahiro Nemoto <t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp>
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Thank you so much for the reviews.

On 2012/07/17, at 6:19, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> On 7/5/12 10:14 PM, Takahiro Nemoto wrote:
> > Dear Peter-san and all,
> >=20
> > Thank you for introducing our I-D. Please read and give your
> > comments/suggestions.
>=20
> First, thank you for working on this document.
>=20
> I agree with you that "the file describing derived property value
> table for precis should be generated". It is also good to know that
> you have worked on an implementation that generates the tables. I am
> also working on an implementation (unfortunately I did not have time
> to finish it before IETF 84, but I plan to do that in August) and
> would like to "compare notes" with you. I recognize that the tables in
> draft-ietf-precis-framework are quite likely incorrect in some places
> since I created them by hand, so I will work to make more accurate
> tables next month.

I'd like to compare notes with you too, and I'm happy if I can co-work =
with you :-)

>=20
> You mention the need to do string validity checking, for example to
> make sure that string length is non-zero. Do you think that is a
> PRECIS check or a check at the application layer? I've always thought
> this is something that the application would do, not PRECIS.

I think that maybe some checks are included at PRECIS.
I think if PRECIS does not define any checks in the protocol=20
and an application developer forget to implement some checks=20
in an application, this application may cause vulnerabilities.

>=20
> As to special mappings like "Map to SPACE" and "Map to Nothing", it
> seems to me that in a post-stringprep system we can handle those by
> more carefully defining the string classes.

Sorry, but I don't get it. What does a post-stringprep system mean?

>=20
> You make a good point about the order of processing (normalization
> then validity in IDNA2008 vs. validity then normalization in
> SASLprep-bis). It does seem preferable to have a consistent order.
> Let's make sure we have discussion about this at the meeting two weeks
> from now.

Yes, we do. I think that It is preferable to have a consistent order.
Different results from the order of processing can now only be found in =
Hangul.
If you know any examples, please let us know.

>=20
> Peter
>=20
> - --=20
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


Nemo

--
Takahiro Nemoto
t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp




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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>Thank you so much for the reviews.</div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div>On =
2012/07/17, at 6:19, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:</div></span></div><div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On =
7/5/12 10:14 PM, Takahiro Nemoto wrote:<br>&gt; Dear Peter-san and =
all,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Thank you for introducing our I-D. Please read and =
give your<br>&gt; comments/suggestions.<br><br>First, thank you for =
working on this document.<br><br>I agree with you that "the file =
describing derived property value<br>table for precis should be =
generated". It is also good to know that<br>you have worked on an =
implementation that generates the tables. I am<br>also working on an =
implementation (unfortunately I did not have time<br>to finish it before =
IETF 84, but I plan to do that in August) and<br>would like to "compare =
notes" with you. I recognize that the tables =
in<br>draft-ietf-precis-framework are quite likely incorrect in some =
places<br>since I created them by hand, so I will work to make more =
accurate<br>tables next month.<br></div></blockquote><br>I'd like to =
compare notes with you too, and I'm happy if I can co-work with you =
:-)</div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>You mention the need to do string validity checking, =
for example to<br>make sure that string length is non-zero. Do you think =
that is a<br>PRECIS check or a check at the application layer? I've =
always thought<br>this is something that the application would do, not =
PRECIS.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div>I think that =
maybe some checks are included at PRECIS.</div><div>I think if PRECIS =
does not define any checks in the protocol&nbsp;</div><div>and&nbsp;an =
application developer forget to implement some checks&nbsp;</div><div>in =
an application, this application may cause =
vulnerabilities.</div></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>As to =
special mappings like "Map to SPACE" and "Map to Nothing", it<br>seems =
to me that in a post-stringprep system we can handle those by<br>more =
carefully defining the string =
classes.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Sorry, but I don't get it. =
What does a post-stringprep system mean?</div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>You make a good point about the order of =
processing (normalization<br>then validity in IDNA2008 vs. validity then =
normalization in<br>SASLprep-bis). It does seem preferable to have a =
consistent order.<br>Let's make sure we have discussion about this at =
the meeting two weeks<br>from =
now.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div>Yes, we do. I think =
that It is preferable to have a consistent order.</div><div>Different =
results from the order of processing can now only be found in =
Hangul.</div><div>If you know any examples, please let us =
know.</div></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>Peter<br><br>- =
-- <br>Peter Saint-Andre<br><a =
href=3D"https://stpeter.im/">https://stpeter.im/</a><br><br><br><br><br></=
div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>Nemo</div><div><br></div>--<br>=
<div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div>Takahiro =
Nemoto</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp">t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp</a></div><=
div><br></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br><div></div></div></body></ht=
ml>=

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 7/18/12 4:24 AM, Takahiro Nemoto wrote:
> Thank you so much for the reviews.
> 
> On 2012/07/17, at 6:19, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> 
>> On 7/5/12 10:14 PM, Takahiro Nemoto wrote:
>>> Dear Peter-san and all,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for introducing our I-D. Please read and give your 
>>> comments/suggestions.
>> 
>> First, thank you for working on this document.
>> 
>> I agree with you that "the file describing derived property
>> value table for precis should be generated". It is also good to
>> know that you have worked on an implementation that generates the
>> tables. I am also working on an implementation (unfortunately I
>> did not have time to finish it before IETF 84, but I plan to do
>> that in August) and would like to "compare notes" with you. I
>> recognize that the tables in draft-ietf-precis-framework are
>> quite likely incorrect in some places since I created them by
>> hand, so I will work to make more accurate tables next month.
> 
> I'd like to compare notes with you too, and I'm happy if I can
> co-work with you :-)

Yes, let's chat about that off-list.

>> You mention the need to do string validity checking, for example
>> to make sure that string length is non-zero. Do you think that is
>> a PRECIS check or a check at the application layer? I've always
>> thought this is something that the application would do, not
>> PRECIS.
> 
> I think that maybe some checks are included at PRECIS. I think if
> PRECIS does not define any checks in the protocol and an
> application developer forget to implement some checks in an
> application, this application may cause vulnerabilities.

So we can advise applications to prohibit zero-length strings in
identifiers. :) It seems to me that PRECIS only tells you how to
perform all the i18n handling, and doesn't define application-level
restrictions such as string length.

>> As to special mappings like "Map to SPACE" and "Map to Nothing",
>> it seems to me that in a post-stringprep system we can handle
>> those by more carefully defining the string classes.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't get it. What does a post-stringprep system
> mean?

A system that uses PRECIS.

Because PRECIS uses an inclusion model (only characters / code points
/ codepoint classes that are explicitly allowed can be included in a
conformant string), I don't see any reason to have these "mapped to
space" or "mapped to nothing" rules in PRECIS-based systems. For
example, just allow space (U+0020) but not other space characters.

>> You make a good point about the order of processing
>> (normalization then validity in IDNA2008 vs. validity then
>> normalization in SASLprep-bis). It does seem preferable to have a
>> consistent order. Let's make sure we have discussion about this
>> at the meeting two weeks from now.
> 
> Yes, we do. I think that It is preferable to have a consistent
> order. Different results from the order of processing can now only
> be found in Hangul. If you know any examples, please let us know.

OK, I will add this to our list of open issues for the framework
document and include it in our discussion at IETF 84.

Peter


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From yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp  Wed Jul 18 18:59:10 2012
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From: Yoshiro YONEYA <yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp>
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Subject: [precis] IETF84 Vancouver draft agenda
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Dear all,

Following is draft agenda for IETF 84 Vancouver.
Please send comments/additions/changes to the chairs.

1. Administrativia
2. Document updates / Discussion
  2.1 WG I-Ds
    (1) Problem-statement
      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement/
    (2) Framework
      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-framework/
  2.2 Individual Documents
    (1) Mapping characters for PRECIS classes
      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yoneya-precis-mappings/
    (2) Username and Password Preparation Algorithms
      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-melnikov-precis-saslprepbis/
    (3) Preparation and Comparison of Nicknames
      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname/
    (4) precis framework implementation report
      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report/
3. Next steps

Marc & Yoneya, co-chairs


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On 7/18/12 7:59 PM, Yoshiro YONEYA wrote:
> 
> Following is draft agenda for IETF 84 Vancouver.

Looks good. I'm working on my slides now.

/psa




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On 7/18/12 7:59 PM, Yoshiro YONEYA wrote:

>     (3) Preparation and Comparison of Nicknames
>       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname/

Actually, I don't think there's anything to say about that document --
IMHO it is done and is just waiting for completion of the framework.

Peter

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On 7/18/12 7:59 PM, Yoshiro YONEYA wrote:

>     (2) Framework
>       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-framework/

Here are slides:

https://stpeter.im/files/ietf84-precis-framework.pdf

>     (2) Username and Password Preparation Algorithms
>       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-melnikov-precis-saslprepbis/

Alexey and I will post again once we have slides for that document.

Peter

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Hello,
  please note that precis wg meeting has been rescheduled:

> 
> precis Session 1 (2:00:00)
>    Wednesday, Afternoon Session II 1510-1710
>    Room Name: Regency A
>    ---------------------------------------------


From t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp  Fri Jul 27 06:51:13 2012
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From: Takahiro Nemoto <t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp>
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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 22:50:54 +0900
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References: <20120705151138.23413.75939.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FF5CF39.9040209@stpeter.im> <414B4EE1-C085-468F-9D01-353CA9B52610@kmd.keio.ac.jp> <50048564.30508@stpeter.im> <AC04B5DC-B1D8-4870-A716-21829F31E819@kmd.keio.ac.jp> <5006D25C.6000606@stpeter.im>
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [precis] I-D ACTION:draft-nemoto-precis-framework-implement-report-00.txt
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Thank you for your comments.

On 2012/07/19, at 0:12, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> On 7/18/12 4:24 AM, Takahiro Nemoto wrote:
> > Thank you so much for the reviews.
> > 
> > On 2012/07/17, at 6:19, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> > 
> >> On 7/5/12 10:14 PM, Takahiro Nemoto wrote:
> >>> Dear Peter-san and all,
> >>> 
> >>> Thank you for introducing our I-D. Please read and give your 
> >>> comments/suggestions.
> >> 
> >> First, thank you for working on this document.
> >> 
> >> I agree with you that "the file describing derived property
> >> value table for precis should be generated". It is also good to
> >> know that you have worked on an implementation that generates the
> >> tables. I am also working on an implementation (unfortunately I
> >> did not have time to finish it before IETF 84, but I plan to do
> >> that in August) and would like to "compare notes" with you. I
> >> recognize that the tables in draft-ietf-precis-framework are
> >> quite likely incorrect in some places since I created them by
> >> hand, so I will work to make more accurate tables next month.
> > 
> > I'd like to compare notes with you too, and I'm happy if I can
> > co-work with you :-)
> 
> Yes, let's chat about that off-list.
> 
> >> You mention the need to do string validity checking, for example
> >> to make sure that string length is non-zero. Do you think that is
> >> a PRECIS check or a check at the application layer? I've always
> >> thought this is something that the application would do, not
> >> PRECIS.
> > 
> > I think that maybe some checks are included at PRECIS. I think if
> > PRECIS does not define any checks in the protocol and an
> > application developer forget to implement some checks in an
> > application, this application may cause vulnerabilities.
> 
> So we can advise applications to prohibit zero-length strings in
> identifiers. :) It seems to me that PRECIS only tells you how to
> perform all the i18n handling, and doesn't define application-level
> restrictions such as string length.
> 
> >> As to special mappings like "Map to SPACE" and "Map to Nothing",
> >> it seems to me that in a post-stringprep system we can handle
> >> those by more carefully defining the string classes.
> > 
> > Sorry, but I don't get it. What does a post-stringprep system
> > mean?
> 
> A system that uses PRECIS.
> 
> Because PRECIS uses an inclusion model (only characters / code points
> / codepoint classes that are explicitly allowed can be included in a
> conformant string), I don't see any reason to have these "mapped to
> space" or "mapped to nothing" rules in PRECIS-based systems. For
> example, just allow space (U+0020) but not other space characters.

"mapped to nothing" may generate zero-length strings and it may 
cause vulnerabilities for applications. Therefore, I think I just want to 
give application developers a heads-up about this in the protocol or 
the security sonsiderations.
But, I don't necessarily want to define application-level restrictions in 
the protocol.

So I would like to hear more member's comments about this.

> 
> >> You make a good point about the order of processing
> >> (normalization then validity in IDNA2008 vs. validity then
> >> normalization in SASLprep-bis). It does seem preferable to have a
> >> consistent order. Let's make sure we have discussion about this
> >> at the meeting two weeks from now.
> > 
> > Yes, we do. I think that It is preferable to have a consistent
> > order. Different results from the order of processing can now only
> > be found in Hangul. If you know any examples, please let us know.
> 
> OK, I will add this to our list of open issues for the framework
> document and include it in our discussion at IETF 84.
> 
> Peter
> 
> 


nemo

--
Takahiro Nemoto
t.nemo10@kmd.keio.ac.jp


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From marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca  Tue Jul 31 13:14:35 2012
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Hello,
 for tomorrow precis meeting, we would need meeting note takers. We will =
be using ether pad so it could be an easy collective note taking where =
many of us will contribute small parts of it.=20

Please volunteer by sending email to the chairs =
(precis-chairs@tools.ietf.org). =20

Marc & Yoneya-san,=
