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From provreg-archive@ietf.org  Tue Dec  1 20:24:36 2009
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From provreg-archive@ietf.org  Tue Dec  1 21:49:38 2009
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From provreg-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Sun Dec  6 17:04:00 2009
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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:01:05 -0500
Subject: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review
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All,

I haven=B9t received any negative feedback to the draft that I previously sen=
t
to the list, so I=B9m assuming that everyone is fine with it.  I officially
submitted the draft.  The official draft is available at the URL below.  I=B9=
m
looking for feedback to the draft from the list to ensure that we have
consensus to move forward.  Please send your feedback to the list or to me
privately. =20

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt

The draft meets the following goals that were previously sent to the list:

1. XML schema is backward compatible
2. Support for add and rem in the same command
3. Support for passing all four dsData attributes on a rem
4. Support for a dsData and keyData primary interface.  Only one primary
interface should be supported by the server.
5. Remove support for the wildcard delete of dsData in the rem by just usin=
g
the keyTag with a clear statement (i.e. Server must return error if the
keyTag matches multiple DS records) in the specification.  From my
perspective and I believe a couple others this is a key issue that must be
addressed.   =20
6. Clarity in the specification on the use of the chg as a replace or a
=B3change all=B2.  =20
7. Clarity around the corner case of a client attempting to add and remove
the same dsData or keyData in a single command.  This must result in an
error from the server.  Additionally an error must be returned if the clien=
t
tries to remove dsData or keyData that does not exist or tries to add dsDat=
a
or keyData that already exists.

I received confirmation that the URI can stay the same as long as the XML
schema is backward compatible.

Thanks,   =20

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
Registry  Sensitive information intended solely for the recipient and, thus
may not be  retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed without the prior writte=
n
consent of  VeriSign Naming and Directory Services.  If you have received
this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender immediately by
telephone or reply e-mail and destroy the original message without making a
copy.  Thank you.


--B_3343111272_6068143
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>All,<BR>
<BR>
I haven&#8217;t received any negative feedback to the draft that I previous=
ly sent to the list, so I&#8217;m assuming that everyone is fine with it. &n=
bsp;I officially submitted the draft. &nbsp;The official draft is available =
at the URL below. &nbsp;I&#8217;m looking for feedback to the draft from the=
 list to ensure that we have consensus to move forward. &nbsp;Please send yo=
ur feedback to the list or to me privately. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt">=
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt</a><BR>
<BR>
The draft meets the following goals that were previously sent to the list:<=
BR>
<BR>
1. XML schema is backward compatible<BR>
2. Support for add and rem in the same command<BR>
3. Support for passing all four dsData attributes on a rem<BR>
4. Support for a dsData and keyData primary interface. &nbsp;Only one prima=
ry interface should be supported by the server. &nbsp;<BR>
5. Remove support for the wildcard delete of dsData in the rem by just usin=
g the keyTag with a clear statement (i.e. Server must return error if the ke=
yTag matches multiple DS records) in the specification. &nbsp;From my perspe=
ctive and I believe a couple others this is a key issue that must be address=
ed. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
6. Clarity in the specification on the use of the chg as a replace or a &#8=
220;change all&#8221;. &nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
7. Clarity around the corner case of a client attempting to add and remove =
the same dsData or keyData in a single command. &nbsp;This must result in an=
 error from the server. &nbsp;Additionally an error must be returned if the =
client tries to remove dsData or keyData that does not exist or tries to add=
 dsData or keyData that already exists. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
I received confirmation that the URI can stay the same as long as the XML s=
chema is backward compatible.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
LS2-2-1<BR>
Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><B><I>Notice to Recipient: &nbsp;</I></B></FONT></SPA=
N><I><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>This e-mail contains confidential, propriet=
ary and/or Registry &nbsp;Sensitive information intended solely for the reci=
pient and, thus may not be &nbsp;retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed with=
out the prior written consent of &nbsp;VeriSign Naming and Directory Service=
s. &nbsp;<B>If you have received &nbsp;this e-mail message in error, please =
notify the sender immediately by &nbsp;telephone or reply e-mail and destroy=
 the original message without making a &nbsp;copy.</B> &nbsp;Thank you.</SPA=
N></I></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN ST=
YLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3343111272_6068143--

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To: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
cc: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review 
In-reply-to: <C743D461.362A3%jgould@verisign.com> 
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Comments: In-reply-to James Gould <jgould@verisign.com> message dated "Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:01:05 -0500."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:38:03 +0100
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    I'm looking for feedback to the draft from the list to ensure
    that we have consensus to move forward.  Please send your
    feedback to the list or to me privately.

[Procedural note].
Note that this list is just a mailing list. To advance this draft
to an RFC, it should either be an individual contribution, find a
home in an existing WG or a new one needs to be started.

	jaap
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Jaap,

Thanks for the procedural guidance.  That mirrors the guidance that I've =
had privately.  I'm really looking for feedback of the draft from this =
list to ensure that what I'm moving forward with meets the requirements =
of the Registries and Registrars participating on this list.  Now is the =
time to provide the feedback while the ink is wet.  Do you have any =
non-procedural feedback to the draft?

----- Original Message -----
From: Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap@NLnetLabs.nl>
To: Gould, James
Cc: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Sent: Wed Dec 09 06:38:03 2009
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for =
Review=20


    I'm looking for feedback to the draft from the list to ensure
    that we have consensus to move forward.  Please send your
    feedback to the list or to me privately.

[Procedural note].
Note that this list is just a mailing list. To advance this draft
to an RFC, it should either be an individual contribution, find a
home in an existing WG or a new one needs to be started.

	jaap

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Jaap,<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the procedural guidance.&nbsp; That mirrors the guidance that =
I've had privately.&nbsp; I'm really looking for feedback of the draft =
from this list to ensure that what I'm moving forward with meets the =
requirements of the Registries and Registrars participating on this =
list.&nbsp; Now is the time to provide the feedback while the ink is =
wet.&nbsp; Do you have any non-procedural feedback to the draft?<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Jaap Akkerhuis &lt;jaap@NLnetLabs.nl&gt;<BR>
To: Gould, James<BR>
Cc: EPP Provreg &lt;ietf-provreg@cafax.se&gt;<BR>
Sent: Wed Dec 09 06:38:03 2009<BR>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for =
Review<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm looking for feedback to the draft from the list =
to ensure<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that we have consensus to move forward.&nbsp; Please =
send your<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; feedback to the list or to me privately.<BR>
<BR>
[Procedural note].<BR>
Note that this list is just a mailing list. To advance this draft<BR>
to an RFC, it should either be an individual contribution, find a<BR>
home in an existing WG or a new one needs to be started.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jaap<BR>
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From owner-ietf-provreg@cafax.se  Fri Dec 11 13:03:01 2009
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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:51:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: Patrik =?ISO-8859-1?B?RuRsdHN0cvZt?= <patrik@frobbit.se>
CC: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
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Patrik,

Thanks for the feedback.  The secDNS:chg should be able to handle the use
case that you describe, since secDNS:chg is a full replace.  Removing all
existing and setting the new DS or Key Data is handled by secDNS:chg.  The
corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all DS or
Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all.  I prefer that the client
explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add and
secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty
secDNS:chg.  Below is the schema update needed to allow secDNS:chg to be
empty.  This change is also backward compatible, so the question is whether
it meets the need and whether it is a good practice to include in the draft?
Any thoughts to this?

    <complexType name="chgType">
        <choice minOccurs="0">
            <element name="dsData" type="secDNS:dsDataType"
maxOccurs="unbounded"/>
            <element name="keyData" type="secDNS:keyDataType"
maxOccurs="unbounded"/>
        </choice>
    </complexType>

    <complexType name="updateType">
        <choice>
          <element name="chg" type="secDNS:chgType"/>
          <sequence>
            <element name="add" type="secDNS:dsOrKeyType" minOccurs="0"/>
            <element name="rem" type="secDNS:remType" minOccurs="0"/>
          </sequence>
        </choice>
        <attribute name="urgent" type="boolean" default="false"/>
    </complexType>

The sample command looks like:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?>
<epp xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:epp-1.0"
     xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
     xsi:schemaLocation="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:epp-1.0
     epp-1.0.xsd">
  <command>
    <update>
      <domain:update
       xmlns:domain="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:domain-1.0"
       xsi:schemaLocation="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:domain-1.0
       domain-1.0.xsd">
        <domain:name>example.com</domain:name>
      </domain:update>
    </update>
    <extension>
      <secDNS:update urgent="1"
       xmlns:secDNS="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:secDNS-1.0"
       xsi:schemaLocation="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:secDNS-1.0
       secDNS-1.0.xsd">
        <secDNS:chg/>
      </secDNS:update>
    </extension>
    <clTRID>ABC-12345</clTRID>
  </command>
</epp>


-- 


JG 

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

 
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
Registry  Sensitive information intended solely for the recipient and, thus
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consent of  VeriSign Naming and Directory Services.  If you have received
this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender immediately by
telephone or reply e-mail and destroy the original message without making a
copy.  Thank you.



From: Patrik Fältström <patrik@frobbit.se>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:10:46 -0500
To: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
Cc: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for
Review



On 8 dec 2009, at 16.01, James Gould wrote:

> The draft meets the following goals that were previously sent to the list:
>
> 1. XML schema is backward compatible
> 2. Support for add and rem in the same command
> 3. Support for passing all four dsData attributes on a rem
> 4. Support for a dsData and keyData primary interface.  Only one primary
> interface should be supported by the server.
> 5. Remove support for the wildcard delete of dsData in the rem by just using
> the keyTag with a clear statement (i.e. Server must return error if the
> keyTag matches multiple DS records) in the specification.  From my
> perspective and I believe a couple others this is a key issue that must be
> addressed.   
> 6. Clarity in the specification on the use of the chg as a replace or a
> ³change all².  
> 7. Clarity around the corner case of a client attempting to add and remove
> the same dsData or keyData in a single command.  This must result in an
> error from the server.  Additionally an error must be returned if the client
> tries to remove dsData or keyData that does not exist or tries to add dsData
> or keyData that already exists.

I think the draft is good, and clarifies a number of things.

But, when adding things (as we are), I ask whether we can not add a feature
to the protocol that we use in .SE that actually make things a bit easier:

If a "rem" has a keytag of zero, then all keytags are removed.

That eliminates some situations (specifically after a transfer to a gaining
registrar) a number of info + multiple rem commands. One can "just" do "rem
keytag=0" followed by the add of the new keys. And, it also makes life
easier when doing a transfer to a registrar that do not support DNSSEC. They
"only" have to be able to do rem, keytag=9 on the domains they gain.

  Patrik




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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review
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On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:

> corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all DS or
> Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all.  I prefer that the client
> explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add and
> secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty
> secDNS:chg.

That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear.  I think what will
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the
new data into place (think "empty webform gets submitted by
fat-fingered iphone user" or even worse, "webform bug doesn't get POST
data properly from client") and submits a syntactically-legal empty
"new state" dataset.  Poof!  Instant DS deletion.

Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading "no data" to also
mean "replace data with NULL" (we recovering database geeks just see
this sort of thing everywhere).  So I'd say if you want to remove
something, you have to remove it, not change it to "empty".

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.
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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:35:22 -0500
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>, EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Message-ID: <C748335A.36441%jgould@verisign.com>
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Andrew,

Thanks, that is my feeling as well.  I want to bring this up as an option,
but I believe that it=B9s better to make updates explicit.  The gaining
Registrar can easily do an info to get the existing DS (or key data) and
then remove all of the DS (or key data) in a subsequent update explicitly
via secDNS:rem.  Any other thoughts to this?

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
Registry  Sensitive information intended solely for the recipient and, thus
may not be  retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed without the prior writte=
n
consent of  VeriSign Naming and Directory Services.  If you have received
this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender immediately by
telephone or reply e-mail and destroy the original message without making a
copy.  Thank you.



From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted
forReview

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:

> corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all DS=
 or
> Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all.  I prefer that the client
> explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add and
> secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty
> secDNS:chg.

That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear.  I think what will
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the
new data into place (think "empty webform gets submitted by
fat-fingered iphone user" or even worse, "webform bug doesn't get POST
data properly from client") and submits a syntactically-legal empty
"new state" dataset.  Poof!  Instant DS deletion.

Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading "no data" to also
mean "replace data with NULL" (we recovering database geeks just see
this sort of thing everywhere).  So I'd say if you want to remove
something, you have to remove it, not change it to "empty".

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview=
</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Andrew,<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, that is my feeling as well. &nbsp;I want to bring this up as an opt=
ion, but I believe that it&#8217;s better to make updates explicit. &nbsp;Th=
e gaining Registrar can easily do an info to get the existing DS (or key dat=
a) and then remove all of the DS (or key data) in a subsequent update explic=
itly via secDNS:rem. &nbsp;Any other thoughts to this? &nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
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<B>Date: </B>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500<BR>
<B>To: </B>EPP Provreg &lt;<a href=3D"ietf-provreg@cafax.se">ietf-provreg@caf=
ax.se</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted =
forReview<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all=
 DS or<BR>
&gt; Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all. &nbsp;I prefer that the cli=
ent<BR>
&gt; explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add =
and<BR>
&gt; secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty<BR>
&gt; secDNS:chg.<BR>
<BR>
That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear. &nbsp;I think what will<=
BR>
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the<BR>
new data into place (think &quot;empty webform gets submitted by<BR>
fat-fingered iphone user&quot; or even worse, &quot;webform bug doesn't get=
 POST<BR>
data properly from client&quot;) and submits a syntactically-legal empty<BR=
>
&quot;new state&quot; dataset. &nbsp;Poof! &nbsp;Instant DS deletion.<BR>
<BR>
Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except<BR>
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading &quot;no data&quot; to al=
so<BR>
mean &quot;replace data with NULL&quot; (we recovering database geeks just =
see<BR>
this sort of thing everywhere). &nbsp;So I'd say if you want to remove<BR>
something, you have to remove it, not change it to &quot;empty&quot;.<BR>
<BR>
A<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Andrew Sullivan<BR>
<a href=3D"ajs@shinkuro.com">ajs@shinkuro.com</a><BR>
Shinkuro, Inc.<BR>
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On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13:10AM -0500, James Gould wrote:
> Andrew,
> 
> I thought about the concept of replace a little bit more, and I generally
> agree that itÂ¹s better to use the secDNS:rem for removals.  I believe that
> to fully support the concept of a set / replace with secDNS:chg that the
> zero or more case should be supported.  Limiting it to the one or more case
> is kind of like creating a list that must have at least one element, which
> doesnÂ¹t sound like a very useful list.  

Well, my _real_ complaint is a data cleanliness/modelling issue.  I
hate having "no data" mean "null".  Only SQL geeks really get excited
about this sort of thing, however, and if others really want this I'm
not really going to object, since I don't have to run any systems that
use it.

A


-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.
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Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>, EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
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Andrew,

I thought about the concept of replace a little bit more, and I generally
agree that it=B9s better to use the secDNS:rem for removals.  I believe that
to fully support the concept of a set / replace with secDNS:chg that the
zero or more case should be supported.  Limiting it to the one or more case
is kind of like creating a list that must have at least one element, which
doesn=B9t sound like a very useful list.  The risk of removing all data holds
from the Registrar web site independent of what is supported by the
protocol, since the Registrar web site could translate an empty web form to
mean remove all.  Remove all could be done as well via secDNS:rem.

I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg.  Please
respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or don=B9t support
this along with any reasons.

Thanks,

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
Registry  Sensitive information intended solely for the recipient and, thus
may not be  retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed without the prior writte=
n
consent of  VeriSign Naming and Directory Services.  If you have received
this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender immediately by
telephone or reply e-mail and destroy the original message without making a
copy.  Thank you.



From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted
forReview

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:

> corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all DS=
 or
> Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all.  I prefer that the client
> explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add and
> secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty
> secDNS:chg.

That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear.  I think what will
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the
new data into place (think "empty webform gets submitted by
fat-fingered iphone user" or even worse, "webform bug doesn't get POST
data properly from client") and submits a syntactically-legal empty
"new state" dataset.  Poof!  Instant DS deletion.

Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading "no data" to also
mean "replace data with NULL" (we recovering database geeks just see
this sort of thing everywhere).  So I'd say if you want to remove
something, you have to remove it, not change it to "empty".

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
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--B_3343633991_18339221
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview=
</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Andrew,<BR>
<BR>
I thought about the concept of replace a little bit more, and I generally a=
gree that it&#8217;s better to use the secDNS:rem for removals. &nbsp;I beli=
eve that to fully support the concept of a set / replace with secDNS:chg tha=
t the zero or more case should be supported. &nbsp;Limiting it to the one or=
 more case is kind of like creating a list that must have at least one eleme=
nt, which doesn&#8217;t sound like a very useful list. &nbsp;The risk of rem=
oving all data holds from the Registrar web site independent of what is supp=
orted by the protocol, since the Registrar web site could translate an empty=
 web form to mean remove all. &nbsp;Remove all could be done as well via sec=
DNS:rem.<BR>
<BR>
I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg. &nbsp;P=
lease respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or don&#821=
7;t support this along with any reasons. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
LS2-2-1<BR>
Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><B><I>Notice to Recipient: &nbsp;</I></B></FONT></SPA=
N><I><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>This e-mail contains confidential, propriet=
ary and/or Registry &nbsp;Sensitive information intended solely for the reci=
pient and, thus may not be &nbsp;retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed with=
out the prior written consent of &nbsp;VeriSign Naming and Directory Service=
s. &nbsp;<B>If you have received &nbsp;this e-mail message in error, please =
notify the sender immediately by &nbsp;telephone or reply e-mail and destroy=
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</SPAN></I></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><S=
PAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"><B>From: </B>Andrew Sullivan &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"ajs@shinkuro.com">ajs@shinkuro.com</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500<BR>
<B>To: </B>EPP Provreg &lt;<a href=3D"ietf-provreg@cafax.se">ietf-provreg@caf=
ax.se</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted =
forReview<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all=
 DS or<BR>
&gt; Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all. &nbsp;I prefer that the cli=
ent<BR>
&gt; explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add =
and<BR>
&gt; secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty<BR>
&gt; secDNS:chg.<BR>
<BR>
That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear. &nbsp;I think what will<=
BR>
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the<BR>
new data into place (think &quot;empty webform gets submitted by<BR>
fat-fingered iphone user&quot; or even worse, &quot;webform bug doesn't get=
 POST<BR>
data properly from client&quot;) and submits a syntactically-legal empty<BR=
>
&quot;new state&quot; dataset. &nbsp;Poof! &nbsp;Instant DS deletion.<BR>
<BR>
Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except<BR>
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading &quot;no data&quot; to al=
so<BR>
mean &quot;replace data with NULL&quot; (we recovering database geeks just =
see<BR>
this sort of thing everywhere). &nbsp;So I'd say if you want to remove<BR>
something, you have to remove it, not change it to &quot;empty&quot;.<BR>
<BR>
A<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Andrew Sullivan<BR>
<a href=3D"ajs@shinkuro.com">ajs@shinkuro.com</a><BR>
Shinkuro, Inc.<BR>
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
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List run by majordomo software. &nbsp;For (Un-)subscription and similar det=
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send &quot;help&quot; to <a href=3D"ietf-provreg-request@cafax.se">ietf-provr=
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From owner-ietf-provreg@cafax.se  Mon Dec 14 12:34:39 2009
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Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
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> I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg. 
>  Please respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or 
> don’t support this along with any reasons.  

It does make life easier for many web application programmers. So I 
would like to second that change.

/Ulrich


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:56:41 -0500
Subject: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Review
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Message-ID: <C74C2CD9.36509%jgould@verisign.com>
Thread-Topic: draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Review
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3343658202_19665603
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All,

I submitted 01 of the draft.  The official draft is available at the URL
below:

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt

The following is a summary of the changes from 00:

1. Added =B3Appendix A. Changes from RFC 4310=B2 section
2. Added Scott Hollenbeck as a co-author since much of the text comes from
the original RFC=20
3. Added support for zero or more DS or Key Data with the secDNS:chg

Please provide me with any feedback that you have via the list or privately=
.

Thanks,

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
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<TITLE>draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Review</TITLE>
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<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>All,<BR>
<BR>
I submitted 01 of the draft. &nbsp;The official draft is available at the U=
RL below:<BR>
<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt">http://www.i=
etf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt</a><BR>
<BR>
The following is a summary of the changes from 00:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><OL><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Added &#8220;Appendix A. Changes from RFC 4310&#8221=
; section
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Added Scott Hollenbeck as a co-author since much of the =
text comes from the original RFC
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Added support for zero or more DS or Key Data with the s=
ecDNS:chg<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></OL><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN ST=
YLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
Please provide me with any feedback that you have via the list or privately=
. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
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<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
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Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
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From owner-ietf-provreg@cafax.se  Mon Dec 14 23:45:12 2009
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Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
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On 14 dec 2009, at 21.20, Ulrich Wisser wrote:

>> I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg.  Please respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or don’t support this along with any reasons.  
> 
> It does make life easier for many web application programmers. So I would like to second that change.

I also think this is needed, or as I said earlier, any mechanism that make it easy for someone that do _not_ support 4310 to at least remove the DS data in the registry.

   Patrik


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From owner-ietf-provreg@cafax.se  Tue Dec 15 05:01:44 2009
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From: "Michael Young" <myoung@ca.afilias.info>
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Subject: RE: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
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Makes sense to me.

Michael Young 


   
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrik Fältström [mailto:paf@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:32 AM
To: Ulrich Wisser
Cc: EPP Provreg
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted
forReview

On 14 dec 2009, at 21.20, Ulrich Wisser wrote:

>> I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg.
Please respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or don’t
support this along with any reasons.  
> 
> It does make life easier for many web application programmers. So I would
like to second that change.

I also think this is needed, or as I said earlier, any mechanism that make
it easy for someone that do _not_ support 4310 to at least remove the DS
data in the registry.

   Patrik


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From provreg-archive@ietf.org  Tue Dec 15 19:48:54 2009
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On 14/12/09 23:56, James Gould wrote:
> All,
>
> I submitted 01 of the draft. The official draft is available at the URL
> below:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt
>
> [...]
>
> Please provide me with any feedback that you have via the list or
> privately.
>
> Thanks,
>

Hi James,

thank you for your work. Unfortunately, I did not find time earlier to review 
the -00/-01 drafts, but here are my comments on the -01 draft (minor issues mostly):

- - 8< - -

section 3.

   The server MUST support use of one specification form consistently.

What does "consistency" mean in this context? This is a bit too vague for me. 
Shall it be possible to use one form for one domain, and the other form for 
another domain at the same instance?


section 4.1.2.

While the XML schema and the wording "one or more ...dsData...|...keyData... 
elements" implies the following, maybe it is worth to mention that if a domain 
does not have and DS or key data at all, the <secDNS:infData> element MUST not 
be included.

section 4.2.1.

same issue as 4.1.2. regarding the inclusion of <secDNS:create>.


section 4.2.5.

    The EPP <update> command provides a transform operation that allows a
    client to modify the attributes of a domain object.  In addition to
    the EPP command elements described in the EPP domain mapping, the
    command MUST contain an <extension> element.  The <extension> element
    MUST contain a child <secDNS:update> element that identifies the
    extension namespace and the location of the extension schema.

This implies that the extension element would have to be provided even in the 
case that the client does not intend to update the DNSSEC related data at all. 
In my humble opinion, this should not be the case, although the schema does 
allow an empty transformation regarding DNSSEC data.


    (<secDNS:rem> section)

    <secDNS:dsData> element is used to uniquely define the DS record to
    remove by using all four elements <secDNS:keyTag>, <secDNS:alg>,
    <secDNS:digestType>, and <secDNS:digest> that is guaranteed to be
    unique.

    <secDNS:keyData> element is used to uniquely define the key data to
    remove along with the associated DS data.  There can be more then one
    DS record created for each key, so removing a key could remove more
    then one DS record.

I would prefer if -- similar as for the dsData element -- the elements would be 
mentioned that are relevant for the identification, i.e. <flags>, <protocol>, 
<alg>, <pubkey> (excluding <maxSigLife>)

As Scott Hollenbeck recently clarified that the order in the XML document 
implies the execution order of the various changes contained in a request, I 
suggest to change the order of the <add> and <rem> element so that the <rem> 
element comes first. This would allow a client to change the <maxSigLife> value 
for a single entry using the <rem>/<add> scheme.


section 5/section 7:

I discovered that the schema uses the same XML namespace as RFC 4310. I am not 
familiar with the policies of XML namespaces at the IETF, but I wonder whether 
there is a need to use a different XML namespace, since we considerably changed 
the schema (despite the fact that it should be backward compatible).

- - 8< - -

Regards,

Klaus






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From owner-ietf-provreg@cafax.se  Mon Dec 21 07:52:58 2009
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On 18/12/09 18:55, James Gould wrote:
> Klaus,
>

Hi James,

> Thanks for the feedback. My answers are below:
>
>>  section 3.
>>
>>  The server MUST support use of one specification form consistently.
>>
>>  What does "consistency" mean in this context? This is a bit too vague
> for me.
>>  Shall it be possible to use one form for one domain, and the other
> form for
>>  another domain at the same instance?
>
> My intent was for the server to support either the DS Data Interface or
> the Key Data Interface and not both. This is similar to the hostObj and
> hostAttr models in the RFC 5731. If the server supports different
> interfaces at the object level, it will not be straight forward to the
> client what interface to implement to. Do you see a need for the server
> to support both models at the same time and if so can you describe why?
> Should more be added to the draft to make it clear that the server
> should support either the DS Data Interface or the Key Data Interface
> and not both?
>

Well, technically, this is feasible to support both at the same time. But I 
agree that this would be rather confusing and thus should be avoided. I would 
appreciate a sentence with a SHOULD NOT according to RFC 2119.

>>  section 4.1.2.
>>  While the XML schema and the wording "one or more
> ...dsData...|...keyData...
>>  elements" implies the following, maybe it is worth to mention that if
> a domain
>>  does not have and DS or key data at all, the <secDNS:infData> element
> MUST not
>>  be included.
>
> Yes, this is good feedback, but I believe that the exclusion of the
> extension when there is no relevant data is pretty standard across the
> EPP extensions and is assumed in the original RFC. For example in the
> RGP EPP RFC 3915 it doesn’t state that the <rgp:rgpStatus> should not be
> included if none of the rgp statuses apply. The secDNS:infData can not
> be empty based on the XML schema, so the server has no choice but to not
> include the extension. I’m not sure if explicit text is warranted here
> or for the other commands (secDNS:create and secDNS:update) around not
> including the extension when there is no relevant data associated to
> secDNS.
>

While a standard should be concise, it should avoid implicit assumptions in my 
humble opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't remember that RFC 5730 or RFC 3735 
say anything about the semantics of not including a certain extension. Also, 
giving the existence of an extension element any meaning limits the forward 
compatibility of the extension itself. For example, if someone thinks to extend 
RFC 3915 to report something in addition to the <rgp:rgpStatus>, then the 
semantics of the infData element would have to be changed regarding the existence.

>>  section 4.2.5.
>>
>>  The EPP <update> command provides a transform operation that allows a
>>  client to modify the attributes of a domain object. In addition to
>>  the EPP command elements described in the EPP domain mapping, the
>>  command MUST contain an <extension> element. The <extension> element
>>  MUST contain a child <secDNS:update> element that identifies the
>>  extension namespace and the location of the extension schema.
>>
>>  This implies that the extension element would have to be provided even
> in the
>>  case that the client does not intend to update the DNSSEC related data
> at all.
>>  In my humble opinion, this should not be the case, although the schema
> does
>>  allow an empty transformation regarding DNSSEC data.
>
> This is pretty standard text in the original RFC and other EPP
> extensions. The global assumption is that the extension should not be
> included in the secDNS:create, secDNS:update, secDNS:infData if there is
> no data or updates associated with secDNS.

I cannot agree. RFC 2119 says regarding "MUST":

    1. MUST   This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
       definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.

Although I am not a native English speaker, this seems to be pretty clear to me 
that there may not exist any hidden assumptions. There is no comparative to 
"absolute". And it is no excuse for me that other EPP related RFCs do the same. 
Their wording has been the source for confusion more than once ;-)

> [...]

>
>>  As Scott Hollenbeck recently clarified that the order in the XML document
>>  implies the execution order of the various changes contained in a
> request, I
>>  suggest to change the order of the <add> and <rem> element so that the
> <rem>
>>  element comes first. This would allow a client to change the <maxSigLife>
>>  value
>>  for a single entry using the <rem>/<add> scheme.
>
> I prefer to keep the order of <add> and <rem> consistent with the other
> EPP RFC’s ( RFC 5731 and RFC 5732 ). RFC 4310 is somewhat unique in the
> sense that the <maxSigLife> is an attribute that might need to be
> changed in the act of an <add> and <rem>, so some text might be needed
> to clarify this in the draft. So really the only reason for <add> and
> <rem> of the same DS or Key Data would be to change the <maxSigLife> value?

There is probably no other reason. But I can live with your decision since there 
is an alternative way to achieve the same. It would be worse if the client would 
have to issue two commands to the server in order get the maxSigLife changed. If 
just between the two commands the server would take a snapshot for the zone 
generation, it would render the domain inoperable.

>
>
> JG

Klaus


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From provreg-archive@ietf.org  Tue Dec 22 00:22:51 2009
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Good Day...

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I found your profile online and would like to get to know you better.
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From provreg-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Tue Dec 22 14:33:48 2009
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On 21/12/09 19:13, James Gould wrote:
> Klaus,
>
> [...]

>>  While a standard should be concise, it should avoid implicit
> assumptions in my
>>  humble opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't remember that RFC 5730
> or RFC
>>  3735
>>  say anything about the semantics of not including a certain extension.
> Also,
>>  giving the existence of an extension element any meaning limits the
> forward
>>  compatibility of the extension itself. For example, if someone thinks to
>>  extend
>>  RFC 3915 to report something in addition to the <rgp:rgpStatus>, then the
>>  semantics of the infData element would have to be changed regarding the
>>  existence.
>
> I’m really not sure if there is any defined extension points for an
> extension. I can add some global statement to the draft around the
> meaning of the inclusion or exclusion of the extension, where the
> remainder of the draft assumes that the extension is only included for
> commands or responses when there is data relevant to the extension to
> pass along with one or two examples. Does this meet your request?
>

Yes, this would be IMHO sufficient.

>>  I cannot agree. RFC 2119 says regarding "MUST":
>>
>>  1. MUST This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
>>  definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.
>>
>>  Although I am not a native English speaker, this seems to be pretty
> clear to
>>  me
>>  that there may not exist any hidden assumptions. There is no
> comparative to
>>  "absolute". And it is no excuse for me that other EPP related RFCs do the
>>  same.
>>  Their wording has been the source for confusion more than once ;-)
>>
>
> I personally have not been confused, but does a global statement in the
> draft meet this request as well? I can’t change other RFC’s, so I will
> look to add some clarity in a global statement.

Yes, I think so.

>[...]
>
>
> JG

Regards,

Klaus


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:04:36 -0500
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Review
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: Klaus Malorny <Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de>
CC: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
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Klaus,

I incorporated your feedback in 02 of the  draft at the URL below.  Please
review for feedback.

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-02.txt

Thanks,

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
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From: Klaus Malorny <Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:40:35 -0500
To: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
Cc: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for
Review

On 21/12/09 19:13, James Gould wrote:
> Klaus,
>
> [...]

>>  While a standard should be concise, it should avoid implicit
> assumptions in my
>>  humble opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't remember that RFC 5730
> or RFC
>>  3735
>>  say anything about the semantics of not including a certain extension.
> Also,
>>  giving the existence of an extension element any meaning limits the
> forward
>>  compatibility of the extension itself. For example, if someone thinks t=
o
>>  extend
>>  RFC 3915 to report something in addition to the <rgp:rgpStatus>, then t=
he
>>  semantics of the infData element would have to be changed regarding the
>>  existence.
>
> I=B9m really not sure if there is any defined extension points for an
> extension. I can add some global statement to the draft around the
> meaning of the inclusion or exclusion of the extension, where the
> remainder of the draft assumes that the extension is only included for
> commands or responses when there is data relevant to the extension to
> pass along with one or two examples. Does this meet your request?
>

Yes, this would be IMHO sufficient.

>>  I cannot agree. RFC 2119 says regarding "MUST":
>>
>>  1. MUST This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
>>  definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.
>>
>>  Although I am not a native English speaker, this seems to be pretty
> clear to
>>  me
>>  that there may not exist any hidden assumptions. There is no
> comparative to
>>  "absolute". And it is no excuse for me that other EPP related RFCs do t=
he
>>  same.
>>  Their wording has been the source for confusion more than once ;-)
>>
>
> I personally have not been confused, but does a global statement in the
> draft meet this request as well? I can=B9t change other RFC=B9s, so I will
> look to add some clarity in a global statement.

Yes, I think so.

>[...]
>
>
> JG

Regards,

Klaus




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w</TITLE>
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<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Klaus,<BR>
<BR>
I incorporated your feedback in 02 of the &nbsp;draft at the URL below. &nb=
sp;Please review for feedback.<BR>
<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-02.txt">http://www.i=
etf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-02.txt</a><BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
LS2-2-1<BR>
Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><B><I>Notice to Recipient: &nbsp;</I></B></FONT></SPA=
N><I><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>This e-mail contains confidential, propriet=
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</SPAN></I></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><S=
PAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"><B>From: </B>Klaus Malorny &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de">Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:40:35 -0500<BR>
<B>To: </B>James Gould &lt;<a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.co=
m</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Cc: </B>EPP Provreg &lt;<a href=3D"ietf-provreg@cafax.se">ietf-provreg@caf=
ax.se</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted =
for Review<BR>
<BR>
On 21/12/09 19:13, James Gould wrote:<BR>
&gt; Klaus,<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; [...]<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;While a standard should be concise, it should avoid implicit=
<BR>
&gt; assumptions in my<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;humble opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't remember that =
RFC 5730<BR>
&gt; or RFC<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;3735<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;say anything about the semantics of not including a certain =
extension.<BR>
&gt; Also,<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;giving the existence of an extension element any meaning lim=
its the<BR>
&gt; forward<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;compatibility of the extension itself. For example, if someo=
ne thinks to<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;extend<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;RFC 3915 to report something in addition to the &lt;rgp:rgpS=
tatus&gt;, then the<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;semantics of the infData element would have to be changed re=
garding the<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;existence.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; I&#8217;m really not sure if there is any defined extension points for=
 an<BR>
&gt; extension. I can add some global statement to the draft around the<BR>
&gt; meaning of the inclusion or exclusion of the extension, where the<BR>
&gt; remainder of the draft assumes that the extension is only included for=
<BR>
&gt; commands or responses when there is data relevant to the extension to<=
BR>
&gt; pass along with one or two examples. Does this meet your request?<BR>
&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Yes, this would be IMHO sufficient.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;I cannot agree. RFC 2119 says regarding &quot;MUST&quot;:<BR=
>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. MUST This word, or the terms &quot;REQUIRED&quot; or &quo=
t;SHALL&quot;, mean that the<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.<=
BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;Although I am not a native English speaker, this seems to be=
 pretty<BR>
&gt; clear to<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;me<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;that there may not exist any hidden assumptions. There is no=
<BR>
&gt; comparative to<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;&quot;absolute&quot;. And it is no excuse for me that other =
EPP related RFCs do the<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;same.<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;Their wording has been the source for confusion more than on=
ce ;-)<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; I personally have not been confused, but does a global statement in th=
e<BR>
&gt; draft meet this request as well? I can&#8217;t change other RFC&#8217;=
s, so I will<BR>
&gt; look to add some clarity in a global statement.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I think so.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;[...]<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; JG<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
Klaus<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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<br>Dear provreg-archive!</br>
<br>I was wondering if you might like to chat with me?</br>
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<br>Please email me back Paulina.11@emailfriendz.com</br>
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                  <p style="margin: 0px auto; padding: 0px 10px; font-size: 10px; line-height: 1.5em; font-family: Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; text-align: left; width: 550px;">ITX E-commerce Ireland Limited trading as ZARA HOME is an Irish company registered under company number 432265 with its registered address at Fitzwilton House, Wilton Place, Dublin 2, Ireland. </p></td>


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From provreg-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Fri Dec 25 17:07:01 2009
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From provreg-archive@ietf.org  Sun Dec 27 02:34:03 2009
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From provreg-archive@ietf.org  Sun Dec 27 02:40:44 2009
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                <td style="background: rgb(132, 118, 107) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.5em; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><a href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home/home?utm_source=zarahome&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_2009_12_22&utm_content=logo" style="text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><img src="http://www.zarahome.com/images/newsletter/rebajas_v08_2/logo.gif" longdesc="http://www.zarahome.com" alt="www.zarahome.com" style="border: 0px none ;" height="48" width="580" /></a> </td>


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                <td style="background: rgb(78, 53, 50) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.5em; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(214, 152, 152);"><h2 style="margin: 0; padding: 0px 20px; background: #4e3532 none repeat scroll 0% 50%; font-weight: bold; font-size: 12px; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; line-height: normal; font-family: Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; color: #ffffff; text-align: left; width: 550px"><a style="text-decoration: none; color: #ffffff" href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home/category/BEDROOM/46851/-1/0?utm_source=zarahome&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_2009_12_22&utm_content=menu_cama">Bedroom</a> Â· <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #ffffff"  href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home/c
 ategory/BATHROOM/46865/-1/0?utm_source=zarahome&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_2009_12_22&utm_content=menu_bano">Bathroom</a> Â· <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #ffffff" href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home/category/TABLEWARE/46871/-1/0?utm_source=zarahome&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_2009_12_22&utm_content=menu_mesa">Tableware</a> Â· <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #ffffff" href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home/category/LIVING+ROOM/46885/-1/0?utm_source=zarahome&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_2009_12_22&utm_content=menu_salon">Living room</a> Â· <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #ffffff" href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home/category/OTHER+ACCESSORIES/46903/-1/0?utm_source=zarahome&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_2009_12_22&utm_content=menu_salon">Other Accessories</a> Â· <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #ffffff"  href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home-kids/home?utm_source=zara
 home&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_2009_12_22&utm_content=menu_kids">Zara Home Kids</a></h2></td>


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<br>Dear provreg-archive!</br>
<br>I was wondering if you might like to chat with me?</br>
<br>I found your profile online and would like to get to know you better.</br>
<br>Please email me back Anya.865@emailfriendz.com</br>
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          <td><img src="http://www.zarahome.com/images/newsletter/20091222/en.jpg" border="0" usemap="#Map" /><map name="Map" id="Map"><area shape="rect" coords="1,-2,598,410" href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home/home?utm_source=zarahome&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_2009_12_22&utm_content=text" />
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                <td style="background: rgb(204, 204, 204) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.5em; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><p style="margin: 0px auto; padding: 0px 10px; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.5em; font-family: Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; text-align: left; width: 550px;">Copyright


                    Â© 2007-2009 zarahome.com /// All Rights Reserved<br />


                    <a href="http://www.zarahome.com/shop/gb/en/zara-home/newsletter/unsubscribe?utm_source=zarahome&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news_fecha_nl&utm_content=cancelar_text" style="background: rgb(204, 204, 204) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Cancel subscription</a> to this newsletter.</p>


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                  <p style="margin: 0px auto; padding: 0px 10px; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.5em; font-family: Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; text-align: left; width: 550px;"> </p>


                  <p style="margin: 0px auto; padding: 0px 10px; font-size: 10px; line-height: 1.5em; font-family: Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; text-align: left; width: 550px;">ITX E-commerce Ireland Limited trading as ZARA HOME is an Irish company registered under company number 432265 with its registered address at Fitzwilton House, Wilton Place, Dublin 2, Ireland. </p></td>


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From provreg-archive@ietf.org  Sun Dec 27 08:01:13 2009
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From: Genuine Pfizer (c) Retailer <provreg-archive@ietf.org>
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Subject: Special 80% discount for customer provreg-archive on all Pfizer
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From provreg-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Mon Dec 28 04:33:45 2009
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From provreg-archive@ietf.org  Mon Dec 28 04:34:09 2009
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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:04:36 -0500
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Review
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: Klaus Malorny <Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de>
CC: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
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Klaus,

I incorporated your feedback in 02 of the  draft at the URL below.  Please
review for feedback.

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-02.txt

Thanks,

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

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From: Klaus Malorny <Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:40:35 -0500
To: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
Cc: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for
Review

On 21/12/09 19:13, James Gould wrote:
> Klaus,
>
> [...]

>>  While a standard should be concise, it should avoid implicit
> assumptions in my
>>  humble opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't remember that RFC 5730
> or RFC
>>  3735
>>  say anything about the semantics of not including a certain extension.
> Also,
>>  giving the existence of an extension element any meaning limits the
> forward
>>  compatibility of the extension itself. For example, if someone thinks t=
o
>>  extend
>>  RFC 3915 to report something in addition to the <rgp:rgpStatus>, then t=
he
>>  semantics of the infData element would have to be changed regarding the
>>  existence.
>
> I=B9m really not sure if there is any defined extension points for an
> extension. I can add some global statement to the draft around the
> meaning of the inclusion or exclusion of the extension, where the
> remainder of the draft assumes that the extension is only included for
> commands or responses when there is data relevant to the extension to
> pass along with one or two examples. Does this meet your request?
>

Yes, this would be IMHO sufficient.

>>  I cannot agree. RFC 2119 says regarding "MUST":
>>
>>  1. MUST This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
>>  definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.
>>
>>  Although I am not a native English speaker, this seems to be pretty
> clear to
>>  me
>>  that there may not exist any hidden assumptions. There is no
> comparative to
>>  "absolute". And it is no excuse for me that other EPP related RFCs do t=
he
>>  same.
>>  Their wording has been the source for confusion more than once ;-)
>>
>
> I personally have not been confused, but does a global statement in the
> draft meet this request as well? I can=B9t change other RFC=B9s, so I will
> look to add some clarity in a global statement.

Yes, I think so.

>[...]
>
>
> JG

Regards,

Klaus




--B_3344436281_33439192
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Revie=
w</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Klaus,<BR>
<BR>
I incorporated your feedback in 02 of the &nbsp;draft at the URL below. &nb=
sp;Please review for feedback.<BR>
<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-02.txt">http://www.i=
etf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-02.txt</a><BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
LS2-2-1<BR>
Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><B><I>Notice to Recipient: &nbsp;</I></B></FONT></SPA=
N><I><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>This e-mail contains confidential, propriet=
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pient and, thus may not be &nbsp;retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed with=
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notify the sender immediately by &nbsp;telephone or reply e-mail and destroy=
 the original message without making a &nbsp;copy.</B> &nbsp;Thank you.<BR>
</SPAN></I></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><S=
PAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"><B>From: </B>Klaus Malorny &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de">Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:40:35 -0500<BR>
<B>To: </B>James Gould &lt;<a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.co=
m</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Cc: </B>EPP Provreg &lt;<a href=3D"ietf-provreg@cafax.se">ietf-provreg@caf=
ax.se</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted =
for Review<BR>
<BR>
On 21/12/09 19:13, James Gould wrote:<BR>
&gt; Klaus,<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; [...]<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;While a standard should be concise, it should avoid implicit=
<BR>
&gt; assumptions in my<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;humble opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't remember that =
RFC 5730<BR>
&gt; or RFC<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;3735<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;say anything about the semantics of not including a certain =
extension.<BR>
&gt; Also,<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;giving the existence of an extension element any meaning lim=
its the<BR>
&gt; forward<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;compatibility of the extension itself. For example, if someo=
ne thinks to<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;extend<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;RFC 3915 to report something in addition to the &lt;rgp:rgpS=
tatus&gt;, then the<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;semantics of the infData element would have to be changed re=
garding the<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;existence.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; I&#8217;m really not sure if there is any defined extension points for=
 an<BR>
&gt; extension. I can add some global statement to the draft around the<BR>
&gt; meaning of the inclusion or exclusion of the extension, where the<BR>
&gt; remainder of the draft assumes that the extension is only included for=
<BR>
&gt; commands or responses when there is data relevant to the extension to<=
BR>
&gt; pass along with one or two examples. Does this meet your request?<BR>
&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Yes, this would be IMHO sufficient.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;I cannot agree. RFC 2119 says regarding &quot;MUST&quot;:<BR=
>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;1. MUST This word, or the terms &quot;REQUIRED&quot; or &quo=
t;SHALL&quot;, mean that the<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.<=
BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;Although I am not a native English speaker, this seems to be=
 pretty<BR>
&gt; clear to<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;me<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;that there may not exist any hidden assumptions. There is no=
<BR>
&gt; comparative to<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;&quot;absolute&quot;. And it is no excuse for me that other =
EPP related RFCs do the<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;same.<BR>
&gt;&gt; &nbsp;Their wording has been the source for confusion more than on=
ce ;-)<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; I personally have not been confused, but does a global statement in th=
e<BR>
&gt; draft meet this request as well? I can&#8217;t change other RFC&#8217;=
s, so I will<BR>
&gt; look to add some clarity in a global statement.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I think so.<BR>
<BR>
&gt;[...]<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; JG<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
Klaus<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Review
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On 21/12/09 19:13, James Gould wrote:
> Klaus,
>
> [...]

>>  While a standard should be concise, it should avoid implicit
> assumptions in my
>>  humble opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't remember that RFC 5730
> or RFC
>>  3735
>>  say anything about the semantics of not including a certain extension.
> Also,
>>  giving the existence of an extension element any meaning limits the
> forward
>>  compatibility of the extension itself. For example, if someone thinks to
>>  extend
>>  RFC 3915 to report something in addition to the <rgp:rgpStatus>, then the
>>  semantics of the infData element would have to be changed regarding the
>>  existence.
>
> I’m really not sure if there is any defined extension points for an
> extension. I can add some global statement to the draft around the
> meaning of the inclusion or exclusion of the extension, where the
> remainder of the draft assumes that the extension is only included for
> commands or responses when there is data relevant to the extension to
> pass along with one or two examples. Does this meet your request?
>

Yes, this would be IMHO sufficient.

>>  I cannot agree. RFC 2119 says regarding "MUST":
>>
>>  1. MUST This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
>>  definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.
>>
>>  Although I am not a native English speaker, this seems to be pretty
> clear to
>>  me
>>  that there may not exist any hidden assumptions. There is no
> comparative to
>>  "absolute". And it is no excuse for me that other EPP related RFCs do the
>>  same.
>>  Their wording has been the source for confusion more than once ;-)
>>
>
> I personally have not been confused, but does a global statement in the
> draft meet this request as well? I can’t change other RFC’s, so I will
> look to add some clarity in a global statement.

Yes, I think so.

>[...]
>
>
> JG

Regards,

Klaus


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On 18/12/09 18:55, James Gould wrote:
> Klaus,
>

Hi James,

> Thanks for the feedback. My answers are below:
>
>>  section 3.
>>
>>  The server MUST support use of one specification form consistently.
>>
>>  What does "consistency" mean in this context? This is a bit too vague
> for me.
>>  Shall it be possible to use one form for one domain, and the other
> form for
>>  another domain at the same instance?
>
> My intent was for the server to support either the DS Data Interface or
> the Key Data Interface and not both. This is similar to the hostObj and
> hostAttr models in the RFC 5731. If the server supports different
> interfaces at the object level, it will not be straight forward to the
> client what interface to implement to. Do you see a need for the server
> to support both models at the same time and if so can you describe why?
> Should more be added to the draft to make it clear that the server
> should support either the DS Data Interface or the Key Data Interface
> and not both?
>

Well, technically, this is feasible to support both at the same time. But I 
agree that this would be rather confusing and thus should be avoided. I would 
appreciate a sentence with a SHOULD NOT according to RFC 2119.

>>  section 4.1.2.
>>  While the XML schema and the wording "one or more
> ...dsData...|...keyData...
>>  elements" implies the following, maybe it is worth to mention that if
> a domain
>>  does not have and DS or key data at all, the <secDNS:infData> element
> MUST not
>>  be included.
>
> Yes, this is good feedback, but I believe that the exclusion of the
> extension when there is no relevant data is pretty standard across the
> EPP extensions and is assumed in the original RFC. For example in the
> RGP EPP RFC 3915 it doesn’t state that the <rgp:rgpStatus> should not be
> included if none of the rgp statuses apply. The secDNS:infData can not
> be empty based on the XML schema, so the server has no choice but to not
> include the extension. I’m not sure if explicit text is warranted here
> or for the other commands (secDNS:create and secDNS:update) around not
> including the extension when there is no relevant data associated to
> secDNS.
>

While a standard should be concise, it should avoid implicit assumptions in my 
humble opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but I can't remember that RFC 5730 or RFC 3735 
say anything about the semantics of not including a certain extension. Also, 
giving the existence of an extension element any meaning limits the forward 
compatibility of the extension itself. For example, if someone thinks to extend 
RFC 3915 to report something in addition to the <rgp:rgpStatus>, then the 
semantics of the infData element would have to be changed regarding the existence.

>>  section 4.2.5.
>>
>>  The EPP <update> command provides a transform operation that allows a
>>  client to modify the attributes of a domain object. In addition to
>>  the EPP command elements described in the EPP domain mapping, the
>>  command MUST contain an <extension> element. The <extension> element
>>  MUST contain a child <secDNS:update> element that identifies the
>>  extension namespace and the location of the extension schema.
>>
>>  This implies that the extension element would have to be provided even
> in the
>>  case that the client does not intend to update the DNSSEC related data
> at all.
>>  In my humble opinion, this should not be the case, although the schema
> does
>>  allow an empty transformation regarding DNSSEC data.
>
> This is pretty standard text in the original RFC and other EPP
> extensions. The global assumption is that the extension should not be
> included in the secDNS:create, secDNS:update, secDNS:infData if there is
> no data or updates associated with secDNS.

I cannot agree. RFC 2119 says regarding "MUST":

    1. MUST   This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
       definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.

Although I am not a native English speaker, this seems to be pretty clear to me 
that there may not exist any hidden assumptions. There is no comparative to 
"absolute". And it is no excuse for me that other EPP related RFCs do the same. 
Their wording has been the source for confusion more than once ;-)

> [...]

>
>>  As Scott Hollenbeck recently clarified that the order in the XML document
>>  implies the execution order of the various changes contained in a
> request, I
>>  suggest to change the order of the <add> and <rem> element so that the
> <rem>
>>  element comes first. This would allow a client to change the <maxSigLife>
>>  value
>>  for a single entry using the <rem>/<add> scheme.
>
> I prefer to keep the order of <add> and <rem> consistent with the other
> EPP RFC’s ( RFC 5731 and RFC 5732 ). RFC 4310 is somewhat unique in the
> sense that the <maxSigLife> is an attribute that might need to be
> changed in the act of an <add> and <rem>, so some text might be needed
> to clarify this in the draft. So really the only reason for <add> and
> <rem> of the same DS or Key Data would be to change the <maxSigLife> value?

There is probably no other reason. But I can live with your decision since there 
is an alternative way to achieve the same. It would be worse if the client would 
have to issue two commands to the server in order get the maxSigLife changed. If 
just between the two commands the server would take a snapshot for the zone 
generation, it would render the domain inoperable.

>
>
> JG

Klaus


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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:38:42 +0100
From: Klaus Malorny <Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Review
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On 14/12/09 23:56, James Gould wrote:
> All,
>
> I submitted 01 of the draft. The official draft is available at the URL
> below:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt
>
> [...]
>
> Please provide me with any feedback that you have via the list or
> privately.
>
> Thanks,
>

Hi James,

thank you for your work. Unfortunately, I did not find time earlier to review 
the -00/-01 drafts, but here are my comments on the -01 draft (minor issues mostly):

- - 8< - -

section 3.

   The server MUST support use of one specification form consistently.

What does "consistency" mean in this context? This is a bit too vague for me. 
Shall it be possible to use one form for one domain, and the other form for 
another domain at the same instance?


section 4.1.2.

While the XML schema and the wording "one or more ...dsData...|...keyData... 
elements" implies the following, maybe it is worth to mention that if a domain 
does not have and DS or key data at all, the <secDNS:infData> element MUST not 
be included.

section 4.2.1.

same issue as 4.1.2. regarding the inclusion of <secDNS:create>.


section 4.2.5.

    The EPP <update> command provides a transform operation that allows a
    client to modify the attributes of a domain object.  In addition to
    the EPP command elements described in the EPP domain mapping, the
    command MUST contain an <extension> element.  The <extension> element
    MUST contain a child <secDNS:update> element that identifies the
    extension namespace and the location of the extension schema.

This implies that the extension element would have to be provided even in the 
case that the client does not intend to update the DNSSEC related data at all. 
In my humble opinion, this should not be the case, although the schema does 
allow an empty transformation regarding DNSSEC data.


    (<secDNS:rem> section)

    <secDNS:dsData> element is used to uniquely define the DS record to
    remove by using all four elements <secDNS:keyTag>, <secDNS:alg>,
    <secDNS:digestType>, and <secDNS:digest> that is guaranteed to be
    unique.

    <secDNS:keyData> element is used to uniquely define the key data to
    remove along with the associated DS data.  There can be more then one
    DS record created for each key, so removing a key could remove more
    then one DS record.

I would prefer if -- similar as for the dsData element -- the elements would be 
mentioned that are relevant for the identification, i.e. <flags>, <protocol>, 
<alg>, <pubkey> (excluding <maxSigLife>)

As Scott Hollenbeck recently clarified that the order in the XML document 
implies the execution order of the various changes contained in a request, I 
suggest to change the order of the <add> and <rem> element so that the <rem> 
element comes first. This would allow a client to change the <maxSigLife> value 
for a single entry using the <rem>/<add> scheme.


section 5/section 7:

I discovered that the schema uses the same XML namespace as RFC 4310. I am not 
familiar with the policies of XML namespaces at the IETF, but I wonder whether 
there is a need to use a different XML namespace, since we considerably changed 
the schema (despite the fact that it should be backward compatible).

- - 8< - -

Regards,

Klaus






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Subject: RE: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:54:31 -0500
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Makes sense to me.

Michael Young 


   
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrik Fältström [mailto:paf@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:32 AM
To: Ulrich Wisser
Cc: EPP Provreg
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted
forReview

On 14 dec 2009, at 21.20, Ulrich Wisser wrote:

>> I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg.
Please respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or don’t
support this along with any reasons.  
> 
> It does make life easier for many web application programmers. So I would
like to second that change.

I also think this is needed, or as I said earlier, any mechanism that make
it easy for someone that do _not_ support 4310 to at least remove the DS
data in the registry.

   Patrik


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On 14 dec 2009, at 21.20, Ulrich Wisser wrote:

>> I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg.  Please respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or don’t support this along with any reasons.  
> 
> It does make life easier for many web application programmers. So I would like to second that change.

I also think this is needed, or as I said earlier, any mechanism that make it easy for someone that do _not_ support 4310 to at least remove the DS data in the registry.

   Patrik


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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:56:41 -0500
Subject: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt Submitted for Review
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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All,

I submitted 01 of the draft.  The official draft is available at the URL
below:

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt

The following is a summary of the changes from 00:

1. Added =B3Appendix A. Changes from RFC 4310=B2 section
2. Added Scott Hollenbeck as a co-author since much of the text comes from
the original RFC=20
3. Added support for zero or more DS or Key Data with the secDNS:chg

Please provide me with any feedback that you have via the list or privately=
.

Thanks,

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
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consent of  VeriSign Naming and Directory Services.  If you have received
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</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>All,<BR>
<BR>
I submitted 01 of the draft. &nbsp;The official draft is available at the U=
RL below:<BR>
<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt">http://www.i=
etf.org/id/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-01.txt</a><BR>
<BR>
The following is a summary of the changes from 00:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><OL><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Added &#8220;Appendix A. Changes from RFC 4310&#8221=
; section
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Added Scott Hollenbeck as a co-author since much of the =
text comes from the original RFC
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Added support for zero or more DS or Key Data with the s=
ecDNS:chg<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></OL><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN ST=
YLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
Please provide me with any feedback that you have via the list or privately=
. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
LS2-2-1<BR>
Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><B><I>Notice to Recipient: &nbsp;</I></B></FONT></SPA=
N><I><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>This e-mail contains confidential, propriet=
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s. &nbsp;<B>If you have received &nbsp;this e-mail message in error, please =
notify the sender immediately by &nbsp;telephone or reply e-mail and destroy=
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> I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg. 
>  Please respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or 
> don’t support this along with any reasons.  

It does make life easier for many web application programmers. So I 
would like to second that change.

/Ulrich


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On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 11:13:10AM -0500, James Gould wrote:
> Andrew,
> 
> I thought about the concept of replace a little bit more, and I generally
> agree that itÂ¹s better to use the secDNS:rem for removals.  I believe that
> to fully support the concept of a set / replace with secDNS:chg that the
> zero or more case should be supported.  Limiting it to the one or more case
> is kind of like creating a list that must have at least one element, which
> doesnÂ¹t sound like a very useful list.  

Well, my _real_ complaint is a data cleanliness/modelling issue.  I
hate having "no data" mean "null".  Only SQL geeks really get excited
about this sort of thing, however, and if others really want this I'm
not really going to object, since I don't have to run any systems that
use it.

A


-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.
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Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:13:10 -0500
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>, EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Message-ID: <C74BCE46.364C2%jgould@verisign.com>
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Andrew,

I thought about the concept of replace a little bit more, and I generally
agree that it=B9s better to use the secDNS:rem for removals.  I believe that
to fully support the concept of a set / replace with secDNS:chg that the
zero or more case should be supported.  Limiting it to the one or more case
is kind of like creating a list that must have at least one element, which
doesn=B9t sound like a very useful list.  The risk of removing all data holds
from the Registrar web site independent of what is supported by the
protocol, since the Registrar web site could translate an empty web form to
mean remove all.  Remove all could be done as well via secDNS:rem.

I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg.  Please
respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or don=B9t support
this along with any reasons.

Thanks,

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
Registry  Sensitive information intended solely for the recipient and, thus
may not be  retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed without the prior writte=
n
consent of  VeriSign Naming and Directory Services.  If you have received
this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender immediately by
telephone or reply e-mail and destroy the original message without making a
copy.  Thank you.



From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted
forReview

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:

> corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all DS=
 or
> Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all.  I prefer that the client
> explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add and
> secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty
> secDNS:chg.

That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear.  I think what will
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the
new data into place (think "empty webform gets submitted by
fat-fingered iphone user" or even worse, "webform bug doesn't get POST
data properly from client") and submits a syntactically-legal empty
"new state" dataset.  Poof!  Instant DS deletion.

Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading "no data" to also
mean "replace data with NULL" (we recovering database geeks just see
this sort of thing everywhere).  So I'd say if you want to remove
something, you have to remove it, not change it to "empty".

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview=
</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Andrew,<BR>
<BR>
I thought about the concept of replace a little bit more, and I generally a=
gree that it&#8217;s better to use the secDNS:rem for removals. &nbsp;I beli=
eve that to fully support the concept of a set / replace with secDNS:chg tha=
t the zero or more case should be supported. &nbsp;Limiting it to the one or=
 more case is kind of like creating a list that must have at least one eleme=
nt, which doesn&#8217;t sound like a very useful list. &nbsp;The risk of rem=
oving all data holds from the Registrar web site independent of what is supp=
orted by the protocol, since the Registrar web site could translate an empty=
 web form to mean remove all. &nbsp;Remove all could be done as well via sec=
DNS:rem.<BR>
<BR>
I propose adding the zero or more case to the draft for secDNS:chg. &nbsp;P=
lease respond to the list or to me privately if you support this or don&#821=
7;t support this along with any reasons. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
LS2-2-1<BR>
Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><B><I>Notice to Recipient: &nbsp;</I></B></FONT></SPA=
N><I><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>This e-mail contains confidential, propriet=
ary and/or Registry &nbsp;Sensitive information intended solely for the reci=
pient and, thus may not be &nbsp;retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed with=
out the prior written consent of &nbsp;VeriSign Naming and Directory Service=
s. &nbsp;<B>If you have received &nbsp;this e-mail message in error, please =
notify the sender immediately by &nbsp;telephone or reply e-mail and destroy=
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PAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"><B>From: </B>Andrew Sullivan &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"ajs@shinkuro.com">ajs@shinkuro.com</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500<BR>
<B>To: </B>EPP Provreg &lt;<a href=3D"ietf-provreg@cafax.se">ietf-provreg@caf=
ax.se</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted =
forReview<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all=
 DS or<BR>
&gt; Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all. &nbsp;I prefer that the cli=
ent<BR>
&gt; explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add =
and<BR>
&gt; secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty<BR>
&gt; secDNS:chg.<BR>
<BR>
That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear. &nbsp;I think what will<=
BR>
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the<BR>
new data into place (think &quot;empty webform gets submitted by<BR>
fat-fingered iphone user&quot; or even worse, &quot;webform bug doesn't get=
 POST<BR>
data properly from client&quot;) and submits a syntactically-legal empty<BR=
>
&quot;new state&quot; dataset. &nbsp;Poof! &nbsp;Instant DS deletion.<BR>
<BR>
Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except<BR>
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading &quot;no data&quot; to al=
so<BR>
mean &quot;replace data with NULL&quot; (we recovering database geeks just =
see<BR>
this sort of thing everywhere). &nbsp;So I'd say if you want to remove<BR>
something, you have to remove it, not change it to &quot;empty&quot;.<BR>
<BR>
A<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Andrew Sullivan<BR>
<a href=3D"ajs@shinkuro.com">ajs@shinkuro.com</a><BR>
Shinkuro, Inc.<BR>
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
<BR>
List run by majordomo software. &nbsp;For (Un-)subscription and similar det=
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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:35:22 -0500
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>, EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Message-ID: <C748335A.36441%jgould@verisign.com>
Thread-Topic: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview
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Andrew,

Thanks, that is my feeling as well.  I want to bring this up as an option,
but I believe that it=B9s better to make updates explicit.  The gaining
Registrar can easily do an info to get the existing DS (or key data) and
then remove all of the DS (or key data) in a subsequent update explicitly
via secDNS:rem.  Any other thoughts to this?

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
Registry  Sensitive information intended solely for the recipient and, thus
may not be  retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed without the prior writte=
n
consent of  VeriSign Naming and Directory Services.  If you have received
this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender immediately by
telephone or reply e-mail and destroy the original message without making a
copy.  Thank you.



From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted
forReview

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:

> corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all DS=
 or
> Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all.  I prefer that the client
> explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add and
> secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty
> secDNS:chg.

That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear.  I think what will
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the
new data into place (think "empty webform gets submitted by
fat-fingered iphone user" or even worse, "webform bug doesn't get POST
data properly from client") and submits a syntactically-legal empty
"new state" dataset.  Poof!  Instant DS deletion.

Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading "no data" to also
mean "replace data with NULL" (we recovering database geeks just see
this sort of thing everywhere).  So I'd say if you want to remove
something, you have to remove it, not change it to "empty".

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted forReview=
</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Andrew,<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, that is my feeling as well. &nbsp;I want to bring this up as an opt=
ion, but I believe that it&#8217;s better to make updates explicit. &nbsp;Th=
e gaining Registrar can easily do an info to get the existing DS (or key dat=
a) and then remove all of the DS (or key data) in a subsequent update explic=
itly via secDNS:rem. &nbsp;Any other thoughts to this? &nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
LS2-2-1<BR>
Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><B><I>Notice to Recipient: &nbsp;</I></B></FONT></SPA=
N><I><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>This e-mail contains confidential, propriet=
ary and/or Registry &nbsp;Sensitive information intended solely for the reci=
pient and, thus may not be &nbsp;retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed with=
out the prior written consent of &nbsp;VeriSign Naming and Directory Service=
s. &nbsp;<B>If you have received &nbsp;this e-mail message in error, please =
notify the sender immediately by &nbsp;telephone or reply e-mail and destroy=
 the original message without making a &nbsp;copy.</B> &nbsp;Thank you.<BR>
</SPAN></I></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><S=
PAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"><B>From: </B>Andrew Sullivan &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"ajs@shinkuro.com">ajs@shinkuro.com</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500<BR>
<B>To: </B>EPP Provreg &lt;<a href=3D"ietf-provreg@cafax.se">ietf-provreg@caf=
ax.se</a>&gt;<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted =
forReview<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all=
 DS or<BR>
&gt; Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all. &nbsp;I prefer that the cli=
ent<BR>
&gt; explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add =
and<BR>
&gt; secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty<BR>
&gt; secDNS:chg.<BR>
<BR>
That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear. &nbsp;I think what will<=
BR>
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the<BR>
new data into place (think &quot;empty webform gets submitted by<BR>
fat-fingered iphone user&quot; or even worse, &quot;webform bug doesn't get=
 POST<BR>
data properly from client&quot;) and submits a syntactically-legal empty<BR=
>
&quot;new state&quot; dataset. &nbsp;Poof! &nbsp;Instant DS deletion.<BR>
<BR>
Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except<BR>
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading &quot;no data&quot; to al=
so<BR>
mean &quot;replace data with NULL&quot; (we recovering database geeks just =
see<BR>
this sort of thing everywhere). &nbsp;So I'd say if you want to remove<BR>
something, you have to remove it, not change it to &quot;empty&quot;.<BR>
<BR>
A<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Andrew Sullivan<BR>
<a href=3D"ajs@shinkuro.com">ajs@shinkuro.com</a><BR>
Shinkuro, Inc.<BR>
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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:07:09 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review
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On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 03:51:42PM -0500, James Gould wrote:

> corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all DS or
> Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all.  I prefer that the client
> explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add and
> secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty
> secDNS:chg.

That sounds to me like a foot-gun loaded for bear.  I think what will
happen is that someone will have some nasty bug that fails to get the
new data into place (think "empty webform gets submitted by
fat-fingered iphone user" or even worse, "webform bug doesn't get POST
data properly from client") and submits a syntactically-legal empty
"new state" dataset.  Poof!  Instant DS deletion.

Now, normally I'd argue that the above is policy, not protocol, except
that I dislike very much the habit of overloading "no data" to also
mean "replace data with NULL" (we recovering database geeks just see
this sort of thing everywhere).  So I'd say if you want to remove
something, you have to remove it, not change it to "empty".

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@shinkuro.com
Shinkuro, Inc.
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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:51:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: Patrik =?ISO-8859-1?B?RuRsdHN0cvZt?= <patrik@frobbit.se>
CC: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
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Patrik,

Thanks for the feedback.  The secDNS:chg should be able to handle the use
case that you describe, since secDNS:chg is a full replace.  Removing all
existing and setting the new DS or Key Data is handled by secDNS:chg.  The
corner case that is not covered in the current schema is replacing all DS or
Key Data with nothing, meaning remove all.  I prefer that the client
explicitly specify what should be added or removed via the secDNS:add and
secDNS:rem, but the secDNS:chg could be updated to allow an empty
secDNS:chg.  Below is the schema update needed to allow secDNS:chg to be
empty.  This change is also backward compatible, so the question is whether
it meets the need and whether it is a good practice to include in the draft?
Any thoughts to this?

    <complexType name="chgType">
        <choice minOccurs="0">
            <element name="dsData" type="secDNS:dsDataType"
maxOccurs="unbounded"/>
            <element name="keyData" type="secDNS:keyDataType"
maxOccurs="unbounded"/>
        </choice>
    </complexType>

    <complexType name="updateType">
        <choice>
          <element name="chg" type="secDNS:chgType"/>
          <sequence>
            <element name="add" type="secDNS:dsOrKeyType" minOccurs="0"/>
            <element name="rem" type="secDNS:remType" minOccurs="0"/>
          </sequence>
        </choice>
        <attribute name="urgent" type="boolean" default="false"/>
    </complexType>

The sample command looks like:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?>
<epp xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:epp-1.0"
     xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
     xsi:schemaLocation="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:epp-1.0
     epp-1.0.xsd">
  <command>
    <update>
      <domain:update
       xmlns:domain="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:domain-1.0"
       xsi:schemaLocation="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:domain-1.0
       domain-1.0.xsd">
        <domain:name>example.com</domain:name>
      </domain:update>
    </update>
    <extension>
      <secDNS:update urgent="1"
       xmlns:secDNS="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:secDNS-1.0"
       xsi:schemaLocation="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:secDNS-1.0
       secDNS-1.0.xsd">
        <secDNS:chg/>
      </secDNS:update>
    </extension>
    <clTRID>ABC-12345</clTRID>
  </command>
</epp>


-- 


JG 

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

 
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
Registry  Sensitive information intended solely for the recipient and, thus
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telephone or reply e-mail and destroy the original message without making a
copy.  Thank you.



From: Patrik Fältström <patrik@frobbit.se>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 05:10:46 -0500
To: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
Cc: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for
Review



On 8 dec 2009, at 16.01, James Gould wrote:

> The draft meets the following goals that were previously sent to the list:
>
> 1. XML schema is backward compatible
> 2. Support for add and rem in the same command
> 3. Support for passing all four dsData attributes on a rem
> 4. Support for a dsData and keyData primary interface.  Only one primary
> interface should be supported by the server.
> 5. Remove support for the wildcard delete of dsData in the rem by just using
> the keyTag with a clear statement (i.e. Server must return error if the
> keyTag matches multiple DS records) in the specification.  From my
> perspective and I believe a couple others this is a key issue that must be
> addressed.   
> 6. Clarity in the specification on the use of the chg as a replace or a
> ³change all².  
> 7. Clarity around the corner case of a client attempting to add and remove
> the same dsData or keyData in a single command.  This must result in an
> error from the server.  Additionally an error must be returned if the client
> tries to remove dsData or keyData that does not exist or tries to add dsData
> or keyData that already exists.

I think the draft is good, and clarifies a number of things.

But, when adding things (as we are), I ask whether we can not add a feature
to the protocol that we use in .SE that actually make things a bit easier:

If a "rem" has a keytag of zero, then all keytags are removed.

That eliminates some situations (specifically after a transfer to a gaining
registrar) a number of info + multiple rem commands. One can "just" do "rem
keytag=0" followed by the add of the new keys. And, it also makes life
easier when doing a transfer to a registrar that do not support DNSSEC. They
"only" have to be able to do rem, keytag=9 on the domains they gain.

  Patrik




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Jaap,

Thanks for the procedural guidance.  That mirrors the guidance that I've =
had privately.  I'm really looking for feedback of the draft from this =
list to ensure that what I'm moving forward with meets the requirements =
of the Registries and Registrars participating on this list.  Now is the =
time to provide the feedback while the ink is wet.  Do you have any =
non-procedural feedback to the draft?

----- Original Message -----
From: Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap@NLnetLabs.nl>
To: Gould, James
Cc: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Sent: Wed Dec 09 06:38:03 2009
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for =
Review=20


    I'm looking for feedback to the draft from the list to ensure
    that we have consensus to move forward.  Please send your
    feedback to the list or to me privately.

[Procedural note].
Note that this list is just a mailing list. To advance this draft
to an RFC, it should either be an individual contribution, find a
home in an existing WG or a new one needs to be started.

	jaap

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Jaap,<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the procedural guidance.&nbsp; That mirrors the guidance that =
I've had privately.&nbsp; I'm really looking for feedback of the draft =
from this list to ensure that what I'm moving forward with meets the =
requirements of the Registries and Registrars participating on this =
list.&nbsp; Now is the time to provide the feedback while the ink is =
wet.&nbsp; Do you have any non-procedural feedback to the draft?<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Jaap Akkerhuis &lt;jaap@NLnetLabs.nl&gt;<BR>
To: Gould, James<BR>
Cc: EPP Provreg &lt;ietf-provreg@cafax.se&gt;<BR>
Sent: Wed Dec 09 06:38:03 2009<BR>
Subject: Re: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for =
Review<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm looking for feedback to the draft from the list =
to ensure<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that we have consensus to move forward.&nbsp; Please =
send your<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; feedback to the list or to me privately.<BR>
<BR>
[Procedural note].<BR>
Note that this list is just a mailing list. To advance this draft<BR>
to an RFC, it should either be an individual contribution, find a<BR>
home in an existing WG or a new one needs to be started.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jaap<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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Comments: In-reply-to James Gould <jgould@verisign.com> message dated "Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:01:05 -0500."
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 12:38:03 +0100
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    I'm looking for feedback to the draft from the list to ensure
    that we have consensus to move forward.  Please send your
    feedback to the list or to me privately.

[Procedural note].
Note that this list is just a mailing list. To advance this draft
to an RFC, it should either be an individual contribution, find a
home in an existing WG or a new one needs to be started.

	jaap
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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:01:05 -0500
Subject: [ietf-provreg] draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review
From: James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
To: EPP Provreg <ietf-provreg@cafax.se>
Message-ID: <C743D461.362A3%jgould@verisign.com>
Thread-Topic: draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review
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All,

I haven=B9t received any negative feedback to the draft that I previously sen=
t
to the list, so I=B9m assuming that everyone is fine with it.  I officially
submitted the draft.  The official draft is available at the URL below.  I=B9=
m
looking for feedback to the draft from the list to ensure that we have
consensus to move forward.  Please send your feedback to the list or to me
privately. =20

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt

The draft meets the following goals that were previously sent to the list:

1. XML schema is backward compatible
2. Support for add and rem in the same command
3. Support for passing all four dsData attributes on a rem
4. Support for a dsData and keyData primary interface.  Only one primary
interface should be supported by the server.
5. Remove support for the wildcard delete of dsData in the rem by just usin=
g
the keyTag with a clear statement (i.e. Server must return error if the
keyTag matches multiple DS records) in the specification.  From my
perspective and I believe a couple others this is a key issue that must be
addressed.   =20
6. Clarity in the specification on the use of the chg as a replace or a
=B3change all=B2.  =20
7. Clarity around the corner case of a client attempting to add and remove
the same dsData or keyData in a single command.  This must result in an
error from the server.  Additionally an error must be returned if the clien=
t
tries to remove dsData or keyData that does not exist or tries to add dsDat=
a
or keyData that already exists.

I received confirmation that the URI can stay the same as long as the XML
schema is backward compatible.

Thanks,   =20

--=20


JG=20

-------------------------------------------------------
James F. Gould
Principal Software Engineer
VeriSign Naming Services
jgould@verisign.com
Direct: 703.948.3271
Mobile: 703.628.7063

=20
21345 Ridgetop Circle
LS2-2-1
Dulles, VA 20166

Notice to Recipient:  This e-mail contains confidential, proprietary and/or
Registry  Sensitive information intended solely for the recipient and, thus
may not be  retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed without the prior writte=
n
consent of  VeriSign Naming and Directory Services.  If you have received
this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender immediately by
telephone or reply e-mail and destroy the original message without making a
copy.  Thank you.


--B_3343111272_6068143
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt Submitted for Review</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>All,<BR>
<BR>
I haven&#8217;t received any negative feedback to the draft that I previous=
ly sent to the list, so I&#8217;m assuming that everyone is fine with it. &n=
bsp;I officially submitted the draft. &nbsp;The official draft is available =
at the URL below. &nbsp;I&#8217;m looking for feedback to the draft from the=
 list to ensure that we have consensus to move forward. &nbsp;Please send yo=
ur feedback to the list or to me privately. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt">=
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gould-rfc4310bis-00.txt</a><BR>
<BR>
The draft meets the following goals that were previously sent to the list:<=
BR>
<BR>
1. XML schema is backward compatible<BR>
2. Support for add and rem in the same command<BR>
3. Support for passing all four dsData attributes on a rem<BR>
4. Support for a dsData and keyData primary interface. &nbsp;Only one prima=
ry interface should be supported by the server. &nbsp;<BR>
5. Remove support for the wildcard delete of dsData in the rem by just usin=
g the keyTag with a clear statement (i.e. Server must return error if the ke=
yTag matches multiple DS records) in the specification. &nbsp;From my perspe=
ctive and I believe a couple others this is a key issue that must be address=
ed. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
6. Clarity in the specification on the use of the chg as a replace or a &#8=
220;change all&#8221;. &nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
7. Clarity around the corner case of a client attempting to add and remove =
the same dsData or keyData in a single command. &nbsp;This must result in an=
 error from the server. &nbsp;Additionally an error must be returned if the =
client tries to remove dsData or keyData that does not exist or tries to add=
 dsData or keyData that already exists. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
I received confirmation that the URI can stay the same as long as the XML s=
chema is backward compatible.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN S=
TYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'><BR>
-- <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
JG <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-si=
ze:7.5pt'>-------------------------------------------------------<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><FONT =
SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>James F. Gould<BR>
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B><FO=
NT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">Principal Software Engineer<BR>
</FONT></B><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">VeriSign Naming Services<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#1100EF"><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:9pt'><a href=3D"jgould@verisign.com">jgould@verisign.com</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:7.5pt'><B>Direct:</B> 703.948.3271<BR>
<B>Mobile:</B> 703.628.7063<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:7.5pt'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#4C4C4C">21345 Ridgetop Circle<BR>
LS2-2-1<BR>
Dulles, VA 20166<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#7F0000"><B><I>Notice to Recipient: &nbsp;</I></B></FONT></SPA=
N><I><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>This e-mail contains confidential, propriet=
ary and/or Registry &nbsp;Sensitive information intended solely for the reci=
pient and, thus may not be &nbsp;retransmitted, reproduced or disclosed with=
out the prior written consent of &nbsp;VeriSign Naming and Directory Service=
s. &nbsp;<B>If you have received &nbsp;this e-mail message in error, please =
notify the sender immediately by &nbsp;telephone or reply e-mail and destroy=
 the original message without making a &nbsp;copy.</B> &nbsp;Thank you.</SPA=
N></I></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN ST=
YLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
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