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From: "Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)" <pdutta@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, "pwe3@ietf.org" <pwe3@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:19:34 +0530
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Support.

________________________________
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BOC=
CI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:01 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Cc: mpls-tp@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?


This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move draft-b=
ryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or oth=
erwise).

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.

Regards

Matthew


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Support.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font=
-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>BOCCI Matthew<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 31, 200=
9 5:01
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> mpls-tp@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [PWE3]
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>This
is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</span></f=
ont><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Please
can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or otherwise)=
.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>This
poll will close on 14th April 2009.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Regards</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Matthew</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
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From philippe.niger@orange-ftgroup.com  Wed Apr  1 02:43:10 2009
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Support.
=20
Regards
=20
Philippe.

________________________________

De : pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
BOCCI Matthew
Envoy=E9 : mardi 31 mars 2009 13:51
=C0 : pwe3@ietf.org
Objet : [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?



This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move =
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03=20
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.=20

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or =
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20



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<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D713064309-01042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Support.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D713064309-01042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D713064309-01042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Regards</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D713064309-01042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D713064309-01042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Philippe.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
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<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>De&nbsp;:</B> pwe3-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <B>De la part de</B> BOCCI=20
Matthew<BR><B>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</B> mardi 31 mars 2009 =
13:51<BR><B>=C0&nbsp;:</B>=20
pwe3@ietf.org<BR><B>Objet&nbsp;:</B> [PWE3] =
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to=20
WG draft?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is the start of a two week poll to =
judge the=20
consensus to move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please can you respond to the PWE3 list =
with your=20
approval (or otherwise).</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This poll will close on 14th April =
2009.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Matthew</FONT> </P><BR></BODY></HTML>

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From frederic.jounay@orange-ftgroup.com  Wed Apr  1 03:06:30 2009
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 Support.
Fred=20

________________________________

De : pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
BOCCI Matthew
Envoy=E9 : mardi 31 mars 2009 13:51
=C0 : pwe3@ietf.org
Objet : [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?



This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move =
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03=20
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.=20

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or =
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20



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size=3D2>&nbsp;Support.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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size=3D2>Fred</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR></DIV>
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<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>De&nbsp;:</B> pwe3-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <B>De la part de</B> BOCCI=20
Matthew<BR><B>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</B> mardi 31 mars 2009 =
13:51<BR><B>=C0&nbsp;:</B>=20
pwe3@ietf.org<BR><B>Objet&nbsp;:</B> [PWE3] =
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to=20
WG draft?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is the start of a two week poll to =
judge the=20
consensus to move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please can you respond to the PWE3 list =
with your=20
approval (or otherwise).</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This poll will close on 14th April =
2009.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Matthew</FONT> </P><BR></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C9B2B1.A8FF5677--

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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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The draft has applicability to Transport.

I will come to the details below in a minute, but tell me how you 
propose to cope with
ESSM in a client - surely you need to intervene rather than carry them 
transparently?

Remember that the client layer performs the classification into protocol 
types
so we just carry the classification over the server layer in a more 
convenient way.

Remember if you don't like the pkt-pw you can always put a real interface in
and use a  L2 pw, and if you don't like that you can always but a clear
fibre. What you do depends on how you wish to run the economics.



neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> Stewart, can I please ask if this draft would be applicable to MPLS-TP?
>  
> I ask this because a transport network should satisfy the requirements 
> of transparency....which in brief means:
>  
> -    all client bits treated equally
That happens here
> -    client bit ordering preserved
That also happens here
> -    no attempt made to try understand semantics of client symbols (ie 
> client message/traffic-unit formed from N client bits) and never 
> change client bits
In this mechanism it is the client layer that makes the changes - not 
the server layer. The client presents the packet and and metadata saying 
what pid the server is to write into the PID
> -    server ensures client X traffic behaviour cannot impact 
> performance experienced by client Y
We pass that test
>  
> ...and I cannot reconcile this with this draft.  So perhaps this draft 
> is only intended to apply to 'classical' MPLS?
It's not clear that it fails the test when you realize that the client 
is presenting the modified data to the server.

Stewart

>  
> regards, Neil
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>     Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew
>     *Sent:* 31 March 2009 12:51
>     *To:* pwe3@ietf.org
>     *Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>
>     This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to
>     move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
>      to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
>
>     Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
>     otherwise).
>
>     This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
>
>     Regards
>
>     Matthew
>
>


From neil.2.harrison@bt.com  Wed Apr  1 07:26:12 2009
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Thanks Stewart,
=20
Stewart answered 01 April 2009 11:55
>=20
> The draft has applicability to Transport.
>=20
> I will come to the details below in a minute, but tell me how you=20
> propose to cope with
> ESSM in a client - surely you need to intervene rather than=20
> carry them=20
> transparently?

NH=3D> I am not familiar with what you mean by ESSM .....are you meaning
some of the Ethernet 'slow protocols'?...if so then yes, these belong to
a p2p Ethernet section layer only.
>=20
> Remember that the client layer performs the classification=20
> into protocol=20
> types
> so we just carry the classification over the server layer in a more=20
> convenient way.

NH=3D> Normally adaptation to a transport network passes down PID
primitives and (esp for a co-cs server) attends to things like client
traffic unit delineation and idle fill.  One of the things we usually
cannot do (and indeed don't want to do) is try and understand each
specific ultimate application's QoS or (more importantly) survivability
importance semantics....this is of course what a co-cs server does by
'default'....and this becomes of increasing importance when the client
is not a top-of-stack layer network anyway (so one can't even see the
top-level message/file/stream application conversations, and even if we
could we would usually not be in any position to make value judgements
on survivability importance).

If we have a definite IP top-of-stack layer network that we can see then
we can get at the end-end UDP/TCP/RTP adapted applications and thus keep
conversations together.  Now a top-of stack layer network is always
present (has to be, else there is no communication happening), but this
may not be the immediate client, and so may not be easily visible...the
real top-of-stack layer network may be several layers removed from the
immediate client.....so I am thinking of things like when we do
MPLSoverMPLS, where the layers involved here could be something like
this:

Application_UDP/TCP/RTP_IP_MPLSclient_ETH_PW_MPLSserver_X.

It's not at all clear to me that the MPLSserver network should be trying
to figure out the end-end application flows above the MPLSclient
network.  Would you agree with that?

>=20
> Remember if you don't like the pkt-pw you can always put a=20
> real interface in
> and use a  L2 pw, and if you don't like that you can always=20
> but a clear
> fibre. What you do depends on how you wish to run the economics.

NH=3D> Agreed.  But when we start introducing inter-layer functional
dependencies complexity rises.....increasing complexity usually means
rapidly increasing marginal costs with increase in scale/scope of a
system.  This is why you will hear folks like me and Andy Reid talk
about the importance of 'transparency' in client/server relationships,
and esp so for transport networks....its not just important for the
clients but its also important to control complexity costs of the server
(and overall networking system).

I was under the impression that ECMP would not be used in MPLS-TP, but
if MPLS-TP is not supposed to be a emulating a true transport network
then I guess one can do this.

regards, Neil
>=20
>=20
>=20
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> > Stewart, can I please ask if this draft would be applicable=20
> to MPLS-TP?
> > =20
> > I ask this because a transport network should satisfy the=20
> requirements=20
> > of transparency....which in brief means:
> > =20
> > -    all client bits treated equally
> That happens here
> > -    client bit ordering preserved
> That also happens here
> > -    no attempt made to try understand semantics of client=20
> symbols (ie=20
> > client message/traffic-unit formed from N client bits) and never=20
> > change client bits
> In this mechanism it is the client layer that makes the changes - not=20
> the server layer. The client presents the packet and and=20
> metadata saying=20
> what pid the server is to write into the PID
> > -    server ensures client X traffic behaviour cannot impact=20
> > performance experienced by client Y
> We pass that test
> > =20
> > ...and I cannot reconcile this with this draft.  So perhaps=20
> this draft=20
> > is only intended to apply to 'classical' MPLS?
> It's not clear that it fails the test when you realize that=20
> the client=20
> is presenting the modified data to the server.
>=20
> Stewart
>=20
> > =20
> > regards, Neil
> >
> >    =20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >     *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> >     Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew
> >     *Sent:* 31 March 2009 12:51
> >     *To:* pwe3@ietf.org
> >     *Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> >
> >     This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to
> >     move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
> >      to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
> >
> >     Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
> >     otherwise).
> >
> >     This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
> >
> >     Regards
> >
> >     Matthew
> >
> >
>=20
>=20

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Support

2009/3/31 BOCCI Matthew <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>

>  This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
> draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
>  to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
>
> Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise).
>
> This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
>

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Support<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/3/31 BOCCI Matthew <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com">Matthew.Bo=
cci@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; padding-left: 1ex;">








<div>


<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">This is the start of a two week poll to =
judge the consensus to move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</font>

<br><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">=C2=A0to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</f=
ont>
</p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Please can you respond to the PWE3 list =
with your approval (or otherwise).</font>
</p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=
</font>
</p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Regards</font>
</p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Matthew</font>
</p>
<br>

</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
pwe3 mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org">pwe3@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft? support*

**From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
*BOCCI Matthew
*Sent:* Dienstag, M=E4rz 31, 2009 13:51
*To:* pwe3@ietf.org
*Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?

This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise).

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.

Regards
Matthew

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<title>draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?</title>
<div class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" lang=3D"en-u=
s"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">support<b><br><br></b></font><div style=
=3D"margin-left: 40px;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org">pwe3-bounces@ietf.org</a>=20
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org">pwe3-bounces@ietf.org</a>]=
 <b>On Behalf Of </b>BOCCI Matthew</font><br><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"=
2"><b>Sent:</b>=20
Dienstag, M=E4rz 31, 2009 13:51</font><br><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">=
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org">pwe3@ietf.org</a></font><br><fo=
nt face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>Subject:</b>=20
[PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?</font><br><br></div></d=
iv>

<p style=3D"margin-left: 40px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">This is the=
 start of a two week poll to judge the=20
consensus to move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</font> <br><font face=3D"=
Arial" size=3D"2">=A0to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</font> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-left: 40px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Please can =
you respond to the PWE3 list with your=20
approval (or otherwise).</font> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-left: 40px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">This poll w=
ill close on 14th April 2009.</font> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-left: 40px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Regards</fo=
nt> </p>
<div style=3D"margin-left: 40px;"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Matthew</=
font></div><p> </p>

--0015174c1982c6cb9d04667b1258--

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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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I support the effort but I believe this draft needs mroe clarification
text
before it is accepted as WG draft.
=20
This draft is shifting the paradigm, pw label no longer carries the
forwarding symantics,
instead PPP PID is used.  The draft needs to expand on the packet
processing aspects.
=20
The PW setup needs more clarification text too.  It seems that 'server'
control plane is used
to create PW and tunnels and once PW is created, 'client' forwarding
plane (to backhaul
MPLS) and control plane (perhaps the same protocols as 'server'
protcols) is used to=20
splice the 'client' MPLS networks.  I think authors need to expand on
this along with=20
additional rules as break criteria so that such recurssions don't create
stack overflow. For instance, once
the PW is up and being used as virtual interface with an IP address, can
a 'client'  PE/S-PE/T-PE
be used on that server-PW-come-virtual-interface?
=20
Its bit amusing that we started with PW to go over MPLS, now we need PW
to carry MPLS...:-)
=20
regards,
himanshu
=20
=20
=20
=20




________________________________

From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
BOCCI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:01 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Cc: mpls-tp@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?



This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20





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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE =
HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML =
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><HTML><head><META =
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"><TITLE>draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to =
WG draft?</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3492" name=3DGENERATOR></head><BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>I support the effort =
but I believe this=20
draft needs mroe clarification text</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>before it is accepted =
as WG=20
draft.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>This draft is shifting =
the paradigm, pw=20
label no longer carries the forwarding symantics,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>instead PPP PID is =
used.&nbsp; The draft=20
needs to expand on the packet processing aspects.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>The PW setup needs more =
clarification text=20
too.&nbsp; It seems that 'server' control plane is =
used</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>to create PW and =
tunnels and once PW is=20
created, 'client' forwarding plane (to backhaul</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>MPLS) and control plane =
(perhaps the same=20
protocols as 'server' protcols) is used to </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>splice the 'client' =
MPLS=20
networks.&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009> I think authors need =
to expand on this=20
along with </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>additional=20
rules&nbsp;as</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009> break criteria so that =
such recurssions=20
don't create stack overflow. For instance, once</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>the PW is up and being =
used as virtual=20
interface with an IP address, can a 'client'=20
&nbsp;PE/S-PE/T-PE</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>be used on that=20
server-PW-come-virtual-interface?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN class=3D161254920-31032009>Its bit amusing that we =
started with PW to=20
go over MPLS, now we need PW to carry MPLS...:-)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009>regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009>himanshu</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D161254920-31032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2></FONT><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us>
</DIV><BR><IMG ALIGN=3D"baseline" ALT BORDER=3D"0" HSPACE=3D"0" =
SRC=3D"cid:image9cc9bf.gif@523de7f2.97294699"><BR><DIV align=3Dleft =
class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us><HR =
tabIndex=3D-1></DIV><DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader =
dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> pwe3-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>BOCCI =
Matthew<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:01 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
pwe3@ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
mpls-tp@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [PWE3] =
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to=20
WG draft?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is the start of a two week poll to =
judge the=20
consensus to move draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working =
Group=20
draft.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list =
only*, with=20
your approval (or otherwise).</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This poll will close on 14th April =
2009.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Matthew</FONT> =
</P><BR><BR><BR></BODY></HTML>

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From lucyyong@huawei.com  Wed Apr  1 08:09:37 2009
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:48:18 -0500
From: Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Support.

Lucy

 

  _____  

From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
BOCCI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:51 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?

 

This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft. 

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise). 

This poll will close on 14th April 2009. 

Regards 

Matthew 

 


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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
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font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>BOCCI Matthew<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:51
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [PWE3]
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This
is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;to
a PWE3 Working Group draft.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Please
can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise).</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This
poll will close on 14th April 2009.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Regards</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Matthew</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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From Italo.Busi@alcatel-lucent.it  Wed Apr  1 08:23:52 2009
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From: "BUSI ITALO" <Italo.Busi@alcatel-lucent.it>
To: <stbryant@cisco.com>, <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Stewart,

Could you please clarify the applicability of Fat PW to MPLS-TP?

In SF, you stated that they are applicable to "ECMP and LAG case" and
this matched with my understanding of the draft.

Due to the fact that ECMP is not used in MPLS-TP, I had assumed this
draft is not applicable in MPLS-TP.

Did I miss/misunderstand anything?

Thanks, Italo

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:55 PM
> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com
> Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>=20
> The draft has applicability to Transport.
>=20
> I will come to the details below in a minute, but tell me how you=20
> propose to cope with
> ESSM in a client - surely you need to intervene rather than=20
> carry them=20
> transparently?
>=20
> Remember that the client layer performs the classification=20
> into protocol=20
> types
> so we just carry the classification over the server layer in a more=20
> convenient way.
>=20
> Remember if you don't like the pkt-pw you can always put a=20
> real interface in
> and use a  L2 pw, and if you don't like that you can always=20
> but a clear
> fibre. What you do depends on how you wish to run the economics.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> > Stewart, can I please ask if this draft would be applicable=20
> to MPLS-TP?
> > =20
> > I ask this because a transport network should satisfy the=20
> requirements=20
> > of transparency....which in brief means:
> > =20
> > -    all client bits treated equally
> That happens here
> > -    client bit ordering preserved
> That also happens here
> > -    no attempt made to try understand semantics of client=20
> symbols (ie=20
> > client message/traffic-unit formed from N client bits) and never=20
> > change client bits
> In this mechanism it is the client layer that makes the changes - not=20
> the server layer. The client presents the packet and and=20
> metadata saying=20
> what pid the server is to write into the PID
> > -    server ensures client X traffic behaviour cannot impact=20
> > performance experienced by client Y
> We pass that test
> > =20
> > ...and I cannot reconcile this with this draft.  So perhaps=20
> this draft=20
> > is only intended to apply to 'classical' MPLS?
> It's not clear that it fails the test when you realize that=20
> the client=20
> is presenting the modified data to the server.
>=20
> Stewart
>=20
> > =20
> > regards, Neil
> >
> >    =20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >     *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> >     Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew
> >     *Sent:* 31 March 2009 12:51
> >     *To:* pwe3@ietf.org
> >     *Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> >
> >     This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to
> >     move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
> >      to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
> >
> >     Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
> >     otherwise).
> >
> >     This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
> >
> >     Regards
> >
> >     Matthew
> >
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>=20

From stbryant@cisco.com  Wed Apr  1 08:34:42 2009
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Actually I should rephrase this.

It is the MEAD team that make recommendations as to what is applicable 
to MPLS-TP,
not the PWE3 WG.

The Packet PW represents a tool that is certainly of use in MPLS 
classic, and
if the MEAD team deem it appropriate may also be used in MPLS-TP.

Stewart



Stewart Bryant wrote:
> The draft has applicability to Transport.
>
> I will come to the details below in a minute, but tell me how you 
> propose to cope with
> ESSM in a client - surely you need to intervene rather than carry them 
> transparently?
>
> Remember that the client layer performs the classification into 
> protocol types
> so we just carry the classification over the server layer in a more 
> convenient way.
>
> Remember if you don't like the pkt-pw you can always put a real 
> interface in
> and use a  L2 pw, and if you don't like that you can always but a clear
> fibre. What you do depends on how you wish to run the economics.
>
>
>
> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
>> Stewart, can I please ask if this draft would be applicable to MPLS-TP?
>>  
>> I ask this because a transport network should satisfy the 
>> requirements of transparency....which in brief means:
>>  
>> -    all client bits treated equally
> That happens here
>> -    client bit ordering preserved
> That also happens here
>> -    no attempt made to try understand semantics of client symbols 
>> (ie client message/traffic-unit formed from N client bits) and never 
>> change client bits
> In this mechanism it is the client layer that makes the changes - not 
> the server layer. The client presents the packet and and metadata 
> saying what pid the server is to write into the PID
>> -    server ensures client X traffic behaviour cannot impact 
>> performance experienced by client Y
> We pass that test
>>  
>> ...and I cannot reconcile this with this draft.  So perhaps this 
>> draft is only intended to apply to 'classical' MPLS?
> It's not clear that it fails the test when you realize that the client 
> is presenting the modified data to the server.
>
> Stewart
>
>>  
>> regards, Neil
>>
>>     
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>     Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew
>>     *Sent:* 31 March 2009 12:51
>>     *To:* pwe3@ietf.org
>>     *Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>>
>>     This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to
>>     move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
>>      to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
>>
>>     Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
>>     otherwise).
>>
>>     This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
>>
>>     Regards
>>
>>     Matthew
>>
>>
>
>


From lucyyong@huawei.com  Wed Apr  1 09:07:26 2009
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:08:20 -0500
From: Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com>
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Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Are we mixing different subject together? Title is about flow label but the
text is Packet PW.
Lucy.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Stewart Bryant
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:36 AM
> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com
> Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> 
> Actually I should rephrase this.
> 
> It is the MEAD team that make recommendations as to what is applicable
> to MPLS-TP,
> not the PWE3 WG.
> 
> The Packet PW represents a tool that is certainly of use in MPLS
> classic, and
> if the MEAD team deem it appropriate may also be used in MPLS-TP.
> 
> Stewart
> 
> 
> 
> Stewart Bryant wrote:
> > The draft has applicability to Transport.
> >
> > I will come to the details below in a minute, but tell me how you
> > propose to cope with
> > ESSM in a client - surely you need to intervene rather than carry them
> > transparently?
> >
> > Remember that the client layer performs the classification into
> > protocol types
> > so we just carry the classification over the server layer in a more
> > convenient way.
> >
> > Remember if you don't like the pkt-pw you can always put a real
> > interface in
> > and use a  L2 pw, and if you don't like that you can always but a clear
> > fibre. What you do depends on how you wish to run the economics.
> >
> >
> >
> > neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> >> Stewart, can I please ask if this draft would be applicable to MPLS-TP?
> >>
> >> I ask this because a transport network should satisfy the
> >> requirements of transparency....which in brief means:
> >>
> >> -    all client bits treated equally
> > That happens here
> >> -    client bit ordering preserved
> > That also happens here
> >> -    no attempt made to try understand semantics of client symbols
> >> (ie client message/traffic-unit formed from N client bits) and never
> >> change client bits
> > In this mechanism it is the client layer that makes the changes - not
> > the server layer. The client presents the packet and and metadata
> > saying what pid the server is to write into the PID
> >> -    server ensures client X traffic behaviour cannot impact
> >> performance experienced by client Y
> > We pass that test
> >>
> >> ...and I cannot reconcile this with this draft.  So perhaps this
> >> draft is only intended to apply to 'classical' MPLS?
> > It's not clear that it fails the test when you realize that the client
> > is presenting the modified data to the server.
> >
> > Stewart
> >
> >>
> >> regards, Neil
> >>
> >>
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>     *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> >>     Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew
> >>     *Sent:* 31 March 2009 12:51
> >>     *To:* pwe3@ietf.org
> >>     *Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> >>
> >>     This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to
> >>     move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
> >>      to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
> >>
> >>     Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
> >>     otherwise).
> >>
> >>     This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
> >>
> >>     Regards
> >>
> >>     Matthew
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3


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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Support.

- Vishwas

2009/3/31 BOCCI Matthew <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>:
> This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
> draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
> =A0to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
>
> Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise)=
.
>
> This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew
>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
>

From stbryant@cisco.com  Wed Apr  1 09:39:47 2009
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Sorry I misread the subject line - that's the problem with having
two drafts running in parallel :)

Pkt PW may apply to MPLS-TP that is a MEAD team call.

Fat PW I assume is only applicable to classic. The only way that
I can see to do LAG in a transport context is to do pw-bonding, otherwise
you violate the ordering.

Sorry for any confusion.

Stewart








BUSI ITALO wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> Could you please clarify the applicability of Fat PW to MPLS-TP?
>
> In SF, you stated that they are applicable to "ECMP and LAG case" and
> this matched with my understanding of the draft.
>
> Due to the fact that ECMP is not used in MPLS-TP, I had assumed this
> draft is not applicable in MPLS-TP.
>
> Did I miss/misunderstand anything?
>
> Thanks, Italo
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:55 PM
>> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com
>> Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>>
>> The draft has applicability to Transport.
>>
>> I will come to the details below in a minute, but tell me how you 
>> propose to cope with
>> ESSM in a client - surely you need to intervene rather than 
>> carry them 
>> transparently?
>>
>> Remember that the client layer performs the classification 
>> into protocol 
>> types
>> so we just carry the classification over the server layer in a more 
>> convenient way.
>>
>> Remember if you don't like the pkt-pw you can always put a 
>> real interface in
>> and use a  L2 pw, and if you don't like that you can always 
>> but a clear
>> fibre. What you do depends on how you wish to run the economics.
>>
>>
>>
>> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
>>     
>>> Stewart, can I please ask if this draft would be applicable 
>>>       
>> to MPLS-TP?
>>     
>>>  
>>> I ask this because a transport network should satisfy the 
>>>       
>> requirements 
>>     
>>> of transparency....which in brief means:
>>>  
>>> -    all client bits treated equally
>>>       
>> That happens here
>>     
>>> -    client bit ordering preserved
>>>       
>> That also happens here
>>     
>>> -    no attempt made to try understand semantics of client 
>>>       
>> symbols (ie 
>>     
>>> client message/traffic-unit formed from N client bits) and never 
>>> change client bits
>>>       
>> In this mechanism it is the client layer that makes the changes - not 
>> the server layer. The client presents the packet and and 
>> metadata saying 
>> what pid the server is to write into the PID
>>     
>>> -    server ensures client X traffic behaviour cannot impact 
>>> performance experienced by client Y
>>>       
>> We pass that test
>>     
>>>  
>>> ...and I cannot reconcile this with this draft.  So perhaps 
>>>       
>> this draft 
>>     
>>> is only intended to apply to 'classical' MPLS?
>>>       
>> It's not clear that it fails the test when you realize that 
>> the client 
>> is presenting the modified data to the server.
>>
>> Stewart
>>
>>     
>>>  
>>> regards, Neil
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>     
>>>     *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>>     Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew
>>>     *Sent:* 31 March 2009 12:51
>>>     *To:* pwe3@ietf.org
>>>     *Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>>>
>>>     This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to
>>>     move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
>>>      to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
>>>
>>>     Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
>>>     otherwise).
>>>
>>>     This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
>>>
>>>     Regards
>>>
>>>     Matthew
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> pwe3 mailing list
>> pwe3@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
>   


From neil.2.harrison@bt.com  Wed Apr  1 09:49:59 2009
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Thread-Topic: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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From: <neil.2.harrison@bt.com>
To: <stbryant@cisco.com>, <Italo.Busi@alcatel-lucent.it>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Thanks Stewart....
> Fat PW I assume is only applicable to classic.=20

That certainly clears up a key concern I had with FAT PWs and MPLS-TP.

regards, Neil

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]=20
> Sent: 01 April 2009 17:39
> To: BUSI ITALO
> Cc: Harrison,N,Neil,CXM R; pwe3@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>=20
> Sorry I misread the subject line - that's the problem with having
> two drafts running in parallel :)
>=20
> Pkt PW may apply to MPLS-TP that is a MEAD team call.
>=20
> Fat PW I assume is only applicable to classic. The only way that
> I can see to do LAG in a transport context is to do=20
> pw-bonding, otherwise
> you violate the ordering.
>=20
> Sorry for any confusion.
>=20
> Stewart
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> BUSI ITALO wrote:
> > Stewart,
> >
> > Could you please clarify the applicability of Fat PW to MPLS-TP?
> >
> > In SF, you stated that they are applicable to "ECMP and LAG=20
> case" and
> > this matched with my understanding of the draft.
> >
> > Due to the fact that ECMP is not used in MPLS-TP, I had assumed this
> > draft is not applicable in MPLS-TP.
> >
> > Did I miss/misunderstand anything?
> >
> > Thanks, Italo
> >
> >  =20
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> >> Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:55 PM
> >> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com
> >> Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> >>
> >> The draft has applicability to Transport.
> >>
> >> I will come to the details below in a minute, but tell me how you=20
> >> propose to cope with
> >> ESSM in a client - surely you need to intervene rather than=20
> >> carry them=20
> >> transparently?
> >>
> >> Remember that the client layer performs the classification=20
> >> into protocol=20
> >> types
> >> so we just carry the classification over the server layer=20
> in a more=20
> >> convenient way.
> >>
> >> Remember if you don't like the pkt-pw you can always put a=20
> >> real interface in
> >> and use a  L2 pw, and if you don't like that you can always=20
> >> but a clear
> >> fibre. What you do depends on how you wish to run the economics.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> >>    =20
> >>> Stewart, can I please ask if this draft would be applicable=20
> >>>      =20
> >> to MPLS-TP?
> >>    =20
> >>> =20
> >>> I ask this because a transport network should satisfy the=20
> >>>      =20
> >> requirements=20
> >>    =20
> >>> of transparency....which in brief means:
> >>> =20
> >>> -    all client bits treated equally
> >>>      =20
> >> That happens here
> >>    =20
> >>> -    client bit ordering preserved
> >>>      =20
> >> That also happens here
> >>    =20
> >>> -    no attempt made to try understand semantics of client=20
> >>>      =20
> >> symbols (ie=20
> >>    =20
> >>> client message/traffic-unit formed from N client bits) and never=20
> >>> change client bits
> >>>      =20
> >> In this mechanism it is the client layer that makes the=20
> changes - not=20
> >> the server layer. The client presents the packet and and=20
> >> metadata saying=20
> >> what pid the server is to write into the PID
> >>    =20
> >>> -    server ensures client X traffic behaviour cannot impact=20
> >>> performance experienced by client Y
> >>>      =20
> >> We pass that test
> >>    =20
> >>> =20
> >>> ...and I cannot reconcile this with this draft.  So perhaps=20
> >>>      =20
> >> this draft=20
> >>    =20
> >>> is only intended to apply to 'classical' MPLS?
> >>>      =20
> >> It's not clear that it fails the test when you realize that=20
> >> the client=20
> >> is presenting the modified data to the server.
> >>
> >> Stewart
> >>
> >>    =20
> >>> =20
> >>> regards, Neil
> >>>
> >>>    =20
> >>>      =20
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ----------
> >>    =20
> >>>     *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org=20
> [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> >>>     Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew
> >>>     *Sent:* 31 March 2009 12:51
> >>>     *To:* pwe3@ietf.org
> >>>     *Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> >>>
> >>>     This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to
> >>>     move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
> >>>      to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
> >>>
> >>>     Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
> >>>     otherwise).
> >>>
> >>>     This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
> >>>
> >>>     Regards
> >>>
> >>>     Matthew
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      =20
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> pwe3 mailing list
> >> pwe3@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> >>
> >>    =20
> > _______________________________________________
> > pwe3 mailing list
> > pwe3@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> >
> >  =20
>=20
>=20

From yaakov_s@rad.com  Wed Apr  1 10:40:04 2009
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From: Yaakov Stein <yaakov_s@rad.com>
To: BOCCI Matthew <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, "pwe3@ietf.org" <pwe3@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:40:59 +0300
Thread-Topic: draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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I support the moving of the draft to WG status,
and hope that this move will be the stimulus to  put more work into it.

Section 2, although describing an NSP, could benefit from a few simple exam=
ples.

The first paragraph of the intro mentions SAToP,
but there is nowhere any discussion of what the mechanism
does to packet interarrival times.

The discussion of section 6.3 seems rather bloated and uninformative to me
(as the mechanism basically can not handle the single fat flow case).

Y(J)S






From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BOC=
CI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 14:51
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?


This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move draft-b=
ryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise).

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.

Regards

Matthew


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I support the moving of the draft to WG status,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>and hope that this move will be the stimulus to&nbsp; put mo=
re
work into it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Section 2, although describing an NSP, could benefit from a =
few
simple examples.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The first paragraph of the intro mentions SAToP,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>but there is nowhere any discussion of what the mechanism<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>does to packet interarrival times.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The discussion of section 6.3 seems rather bloated and uninf=
ormative
to me<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>(as the mechanism basically can not handle the single fat fl=
ow
case).<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Y(J)S<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>BO=
CCI
Matthew<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 14:51<br>
<b>To:</b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This i=
s the
start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</span> <br>
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;to =
a PWE3
Working Group draft.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Please=
 can
you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise).</span> <o:p=
></o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This p=
oll
will close on 14th April 2009.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regard=
s</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Matthe=
w</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

--_000_424CDC689E5CEF4D9FEADE56A378D922021B07BAA9exrad4adradco_--

From yaakov_s@rad.com  Wed Apr  1 10:49:53 2009
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From: Yaakov Stein <yaakov_s@rad.com>
To: "pwe3@ietf.org" <pwe3@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:49:37 +0300
Thread-Topic: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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I support, but strongly do NOT support the name.

"packet PW" does not mean anything to me. Do the other encaps not transport=
 packets ?
Does this one only transport packets (and not e.g., frames?)

How about "interface traffic PW" or "generic traffic PW" ?

The latter name "generic PW" was the name that was used
when this same idea was described a few years ago
(see to lock onto the thread http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pwe3/curr=
ent/msg08070.html )

Y(J)S


2009/3/31 BOCCI Matthew <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:Matthew.Bo=
cci@alcatel-lucent.com>>

This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move draft-b=
ryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or oth=
erwise).

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.

Regards

Matthew


_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org<mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3


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<div class=3DSection1>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I support, but strongly =
do NOT
support the name.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&quot;packet PW&quot; do=
es not
mean anything to me. Do the other encaps not transport packets ?<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Does this one only trans=
port
packets (and not e.g., frames?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>How about &quot;interfac=
e
traffic PW&quot; or &quot;generic traffic PW&quot; ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The latter name &quot;ge=
neric
PW&quot; was the name that was used<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>when this same idea was
described a few years ago<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>(see to lock onto the th=
read <a
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pwe3/current/msg08070.html">ht=
tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/pwe3/current/msg08070.html</a>
)<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Y(J)S<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>2009/3/31 BOCCI Matthew &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com">Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-luce=
nt.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This i=
s the
start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Please=
 can
you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or otherwise).</s=
pan>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This p=
oll
will close on 14th April 2009.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regard=
s</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Matthe=
w</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
pwe3 mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org">pwe3@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3</a><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

--_000_424CDC689E5CEF4D9FEADE56A378D922021B07BAABexrad4adradco_--

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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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No

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BOCCI Matthew [mailto:Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:01 AM
> To: pwe3@ietf.org
> Cc: mpls-tp@ietf.org
> Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>=20
> This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus=20
> to move draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working=20
> Group draft.
>=20
> Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your=20
> approval (or otherwise).=20
>=20
> This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20
>=20
> Regards=20
>=20
> Matthew=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

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Support.

=20

From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
BOCCI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:51 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?

=20

This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03=20
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.=20

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

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0in 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
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</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>BOCCI
Matthew<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG =
draft?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This is the
start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</span> <br>
<span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;to a =
PWE3
Working Group draft.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Please can
you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise).</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This poll
will close on 14th April 2009.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
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>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Matthew</span=
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From: "BALUS Florin" <Florin.Balus@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Support.

=20

From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
BOCCI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:01 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Cc: mpls-tp@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?

=20

This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
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</b><span
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pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>BOCCI
Matthew<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls-tp@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG =
draft?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This is the
start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group =
draft.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Please can
you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or =
otherwise).</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This poll
will close on 14th April 2009.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards</span=
>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
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>
<o:p></o:p></p>

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From neil.2.harrison@bt.com  Wed Apr  1 11:40:21 2009
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] [mpls-tp] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Matthew,
=20
 I am not clear why responses should only be sent to PWE3 as this draft
seems most germane to MPLS-TP.
=20
I support the concept of adding a PID field to MPLS-TP (though I think
there are better ways to to this) but I am not sure how useful this is
to existing MPLS deployments. ....so I am a little unclear as to what we
are voting for here, ie classic MPLS or MPLS-TP?  *This point needs
clarifying.*=20
=20
My further observations are specifically for the case of applying this
new DP structure to MPLS-TP.....but I accept that these observation may
not be applicable if there is no intention to apply this draft to
MPLS-TP (but then this begs the question of what MPLS-TP adaptation will
look like?)
=20
=20
1    The opening sentence of the Introduction says:
"There is a need to provide a method of carrying a packet service over
an MPLS PSN in a way that provides isolation between the two networks. "
=20
I agree with this.  And an important case is MPLS(TP)overMPLS-TP.  I
also think that in addition to client/server *functional separation* the
server should be providing a *transparent transport service* to the
client, if the server is supposed to be fulfilling a transport network
role.
=20
However I have a problem with what it says later in the Introduction
about this same point:
"A further consideration is that two adjacent MPLS LSRs do not simply
exchange MPLS packets.  They exchange IP packets for adjacency
formation, control, routing, label exchange, management and  monitoring
purposes.  In addition they may exchange data-link packets as part of
routing (e.g.  IS-IS hellos and IS-IS LSPs) and for OAM purposes (e.g.
Cisco Discovery Protocol).  Thus the two clients require an attachment
mechanism that can be used to multiplex a number of protocols.  In
addition it is essential to the correct operation of the network layer
that all of these protocols fate share.

Where the client LSRs and server PEs are co-located in the same
equipment the data-link layer can be simplified to a simple protocol
identifier (PID) that is used to multiplex the various data-link types
onto a pseudowire.  This is the method that described in this document."
=20
The whole point of a client/server relationship is to accomodate
distinct layer networks (and hence distinct equipment) owned by
differrent operating parties.  So to place a restriction that the new DP
format of using the PID can only be used when the client and server MPLS
layer networks are co-resident in the same equipment kind-of defeats the
whole purpose of what is said in the opening sentence of the
Introduction IMO.
=20
I don't see why we can't have a p2p server layer (the 'data-link'
mentioned above) that fully terminates on the client and server MPLS
nodes....indeed this is the key case to address IMO.  Further, we should
not place an undue restriction on what the technology used here (for
this 'data-link').  It could be Ethernet or it could be SDH (using GFP
adaptation to identify the client as MPLS) and it should be able to be
different on each client/server end.
=20
=20
2    If we are using the PID with MPLS-TP...where I am assuming the
intention is to produce a transport network like behaviour......then we
can make these observations:
=20
-    We should not have ECMP in MPLS-TP.......therefore the 1st nibble
value 0000 of the CW is redundant.
=20
-    A transport network must preserve the sequence ordering of client
symbol information.....therefore the Sequence Number field of the CW is
redundant.
=20
I can understand why these are required in 'classic' MPLS but we should
note that if this DP format is used with MPLS-TP these fields are
redundant and should be set to something like all 0s.   More generally
of course, we perhaps should even question whether we need the CW in
MPLS-TP, as it is not offering any useful adaptation functions at
all.....indeed we can observe that if the PID always followed the S=3D1
header case this ought to work fine in MPLS-TP (which is essentially
what John Drake and I were proposing should be considered).
 =20
regards, Neil
=20

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG =
draft?</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>Matthew,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
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class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>&nbsp;I am not clear why responses should =
only be sent=20
to PWE3 as this draft seems most germane to MPLS-TP.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>I support the concept of adding a PID field =
to MPLS-TP=20
(though I think there are better ways to to this) but I am not sure how =
useful=20
this is to existing MPLS deployments.&nbsp;....so I am a little unclear =
as to=20
what we are voting for here, ie classic MPLS or MPLS-TP?&nbsp; *This =
point needs=20
clarifying.*&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>My further observations are specifically for =
the case=20
of applying this new DP structure to MPLS-TP.....but I accept that these =

observation may not be applicable if there is no intention to apply this =
draft=20
to MPLS-TP (but then this begs the question of what MPLS-TP adaptation =
will look=20
like?)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The opening sentence of =
the=20
Introduction says:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>"<FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D3><FONT =
face=3DCourier>There is=20
a need to provide a method of carrying a packet service over&nbsp;an =
MPLS PSN in=20
a way that provides isolation between the two&nbsp;networks.</FONT>=20
</FONT>"</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>I agree with this.&nbsp; And an important =
case is=20
MPLS(TP)overMPLS-TP.&nbsp; I also think that in addition to =
client/server=20
*functional separation* the server should be providing a *transparent =
transport=20
service* to the client, if the server is supposed to be fulfilling a =
transport=20
network role.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>However I have a problem with what it says =
later in the=20
Introduction about this same point:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>"<FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D3><FONT =
face=3DCourier>A=20
further consideration is that two adjacent MPLS LSRs do not =
simply&nbsp;exchange=20
MPLS packets.&nbsp; They exchange IP packets for =
adjacency&nbsp;formation,=20
control, routing, label exchange, management and&nbsp; monitoring=20
purposes.&nbsp; In addition they may exchange data-link packets&nbsp;as =
part of=20
routing (e.g.&nbsp; IS-IS hellos and IS-IS LSPs) and for =
OAM&nbsp;purposes=20
(e.g.&nbsp; Cisco Discovery Protocol).&nbsp; Thus the two =
clients&nbsp;require=20
an attachment mechanism that can be used to multiplex a&nbsp;number of=20
protocols.&nbsp; In addition it is essential to the =
correct&nbsp;operation of=20
the network layer that all of these protocols =
fate&nbsp;share.<BR><BR>Where the=20
client LSRs and server PEs are co-located in the same&nbsp;equipment the =

data-link layer can be simplified to a simple protocol identifier (PID) =
that is=20
used to multiplex the various data-link&nbsp;types onto a =
pseudowire.&nbsp; This=20
is the method that described in=20
this&nbsp;document.</FONT></FONT>"</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>The whole point of a client/server =
relationship is to=20
accomodate distinct layer networks (and hence distinct equipment) owned =
by=20
differrent operating parties.&nbsp; So to place a restriction that the =
new DP=20
format of using the PID can only be used&nbsp;when the client and server =
MPLS=20
layer networks are co-resident in the same equipment kind-of defeats the =
whole=20
purpose of what is said in the opening sentence of the Introduction=20
IMO.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>I don't see why we can't have a p2p server =
layer (the=20
'data-link' mentioned above) that fully terminates on the client and =
server MPLS=20
nodes....indeed this is the key case to address IMO.&nbsp; Further, we =
should=20
not place an undue&nbsp;restriction on what the technology used here =
(for this=20
'data-link').&nbsp; It could be Ethernet or it could be SDH (using GFP=20
adaptation to identify the client as MPLS) and it should be able to be =
different=20
on each client/server end.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If we are using the PID =
with=20
MPLS-TP...where I am assuming the intention is to produce a transport =
network=20
like behaviour......then we can make these =
observations:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We should not have ECMP =
in=20
MPLS-TP.......therefore the 1st nibble value 0000 of the CW is=20
redundant.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A transport network must =
preserve=20
the sequence ordering of client symbol information.....therefore the =
Sequence=20
Number field of the CW is redundant.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>I can understand why these are required in =
'classic'=20
MPLS but we should note that if this DP format is used with MPLS-TP =
these fields=20
are redundant and should be set to something like all 0s.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
More=20
generally of course, we perhaps should even question whether we need the =
CW in=20
MPLS-TP, as it is not offering any useful adaptation functions at =
all.....indeed=20
we can observe that if the PID always followed the S=3D1 header case =
this ought to=20
work fine in MPLS-TP (which is essentially what John Drake and I were =
proposing=20
should be considered).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009>regards, Neil</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D075425316-01042009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Thread-Topic: [PWE3] [mpls-tp] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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From: "Drake, John E" <John.E.Drake2@boeing.com>
To: <pwe3@ietf.org>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2009 19:10:14.0743 (UTC) FILETIME=[7CD2CE70:01C9B2FD]
Subject: Re: [PWE3] [mpls-tp] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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+1=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: neil.2.harrison@bt.com [mailto:neil.2.harrison@bt.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:42 AM
> To: Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com; pwe3@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] [mpls-tp]=20
> draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>=20
> Matthew,
> =20
>  I am not clear why responses should only be sent to PWE3 as=20
> this draft seems most germane to MPLS-TP.
> =20
> I support the concept of adding a PID field to MPLS-TP=20
> (though I think there are better ways to to this) but I am=20
> not sure how useful this is to existing MPLS deployments.=20
> ....so I am a little unclear as to what we are voting for=20
> here, ie classic MPLS or MPLS-TP?  *This point needs clarifying.*=20
> =20
> My further observations are specifically for the case of=20
> applying this new DP structure to MPLS-TP.....but I accept=20
> that these observation may not be applicable if there is no=20
> intention to apply this draft to MPLS-TP (but then this begs=20
> the question of what MPLS-TP adaptation will look like?)
> =20
> =20
> 1    The opening sentence of the Introduction says:
> "There is a need to provide a method of carrying a packet=20
> service over an MPLS PSN in a way that provides isolation=20
> between the two networks. "
> =20
> I agree with this.  And an important case is=20
> MPLS(TP)overMPLS-TP.  I also think that in addition to=20
> client/server *functional separation* the server should be=20
> providing a *transparent transport service* to the client, if=20
> the server is supposed to be fulfilling a transport network role.
> =20
> However I have a problem with what it says later in the=20
> Introduction about this same point:
> "A further consideration is that two adjacent MPLS LSRs do=20
> not simply exchange MPLS packets.  They exchange IP packets=20
> for adjacency formation, control, routing, label exchange,=20
> management and  monitoring purposes.  In addition they may=20
> exchange data-link packets as part of routing (e.g.  IS-IS=20
> hellos and IS-IS LSPs) and for OAM purposes (e.g.  Cisco=20
> Discovery Protocol).  Thus the two clients require an=20
> attachment mechanism that can be used to multiplex a number=20
> of protocols.  In addition it is essential to the correct=20
> operation of the network layer that all of these protocols fate share.
>=20
> Where the client LSRs and server PEs are co-located in the=20
> same equipment the data-link layer can be simplified to a=20
> simple protocol identifier (PID) that is used to multiplex=20
> the various data-link types onto a pseudowire.  This is the=20
> method that described in this document."
> =20
> The whole point of a client/server relationship is to=20
> accomodate distinct layer networks (and hence distinct=20
> equipment) owned by differrent operating parties.  So to=20
> place a restriction that the new DP format of using the PID=20
> can only be used when the client and server MPLS layer=20
> networks are co-resident in the same equipment kind-of=20
> defeats the whole purpose of what is said in the opening=20
> sentence of the Introduction IMO.
> =20
> I don't see why we can't have a p2p server layer (the=20
> 'data-link' mentioned above) that fully terminates on the=20
> client and server MPLS nodes....indeed this is the key case=20
> to address IMO.  Further, we should not place an undue=20
> restriction on what the technology used here (for this=20
> 'data-link').  It could be Ethernet or it could be SDH (using=20
> GFP adaptation to identify the client as MPLS) and it should=20
> be able to be different on each client/server end.
> =20
> =20
> 2    If we are using the PID with MPLS-TP...where I am=20
> assuming the intention is to produce a transport network like=20
> behaviour......then we can make these observations:
> =20
> -    We should not have ECMP in MPLS-TP.......therefore the=20
> 1st nibble value 0000 of the CW is redundant.
> =20
> -    A transport network must preserve the sequence ordering=20
> of client symbol information.....therefore the Sequence=20
> Number field of the CW is redundant.
> =20
> I can understand why these are required in 'classic' MPLS but=20
> we should note that if this DP format is used with MPLS-TP=20
> these fields are redundant and should be set to something=20
> like all 0s.   More generally of course, we perhaps should=20
> even question whether we need the CW in MPLS-TP, as it is not=20
> offering any useful adaptation functions at all.....indeed we=20
> can observe that if the PID always followed the S=3D1 header=20
> case this ought to work fine in MPLS-TP (which is essentially=20
> what John Drake and I were proposing should be considered).
>  =20
> regards, Neil
> =20
>=20

From rmanur@broadcom.com  Wed Apr  1 13:51:57 2009
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From: "Rajeev Manur" <rmanur@broadcom.com>
To: "BOCCI Matthew" <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, "pwe3@ietf.org" <pwe3@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:53:57 -0700
Thread-Topic: draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Support.

--Rajeev Manur


________________________________
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BOC=
CI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:51 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?


This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move draft-b=
ryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise).

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.

Regards

Matthew


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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D531083420-01042009><FONT face=3DA=
rial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Support.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D531083420-01042009></SPAN>&nbsp;<=
/DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D531083420-01042009><FONT face=3DA=
rial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>--Rajeev Manur</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D531083420-01042009><FONT face=3DA=
rial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D531083420-01042009>&nbsp;</SPAN><=
/DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B>=20
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>BO=
CCI=20
Matthew<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:51 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
pwe3@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to =
WG=20
draft?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is the start of a two week poll to judg=
e the=20
consensus to move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DA=
rial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with=
 your=20
approval (or otherwise).</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This poll will close on 14th April 2009.</FO=
NT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Matthew</FONT> </P><BR></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)" <pdutta@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Bocci, Matthew (Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, "pwe3@ietf.org" <pwe3@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 04:30:47 +0530
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Support

________________________________
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BOC=
CI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:01 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Cc: mpls-tp@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?


This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move draft-b=
ryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or oth=
erwise).

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.

Regards

Matthew


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Support<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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e=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D'font=
-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>BOCCI Matthew<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 31, 200=
9 5:01
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> mpls-tp@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [PWE3]
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>This
is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</span></f=
ont><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Please
can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or otherwise)=
.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>This
poll will close on 14th April 2009.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Regards</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
Arial'>Matthew</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:16:24 +0100
From: Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org, Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com, yaakov_s@rad.com, pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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FAT stands for the contrived name "Flow Aware Transport" - I think I spell
that out in the draft.

Note that we mean transport as in layer above network, not transport as
in network
below datalink.

Stewart



jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
>
> Appreciate the effort and green design of flow based load balance
> without egress reordering.
> I have a small question:
>
> The "Fat" in title seems not relevant to the design.
> Actually, it tries to identify individual flow inside a "fat" traffic,
> and make it "thin" enough to go through single link.
> Which seems a kind of demuxing function and seem to me that PW layer
> does not have adequate muxing capability so that we have to add
> another layer above, right?
> Could we just use a more relevant name for the document, like flow
> based pw load balance?
>
> Albert
>
>
>
> *Yaakov Stein <yaakov_s@rad.com>*
> ·¢¼þÈË: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org
>
> 2009-04-02 01:40
>
> 	
> ÊÕ¼þÈË
> 	BOCCI Matthew <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, "pwe3@ietf.org"
> <pwe3@ietf.org>
> ³­ËÍ
> 	
> Ö÷Ìâ
> 	Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
> I support the moving of the draft to WG status,
> and hope that this move will be the stimulus to put more work into it.
>
> Section 2, although describing an NSP, could benefit from a few simple
> examples.
>
> The first paragraph of the intro mentions SAToP,
> but there is nowhere any discussion of what the mechanism
> does to packet interarrival times.
>
> The discussion of section 6.3 seems rather bloated and uninformative
> to me
> (as the mechanism basically can not handle the single fat flow case).
>
> Y(J)S
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew*
> Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2009 14:51*
> To:* pwe3@ietf.org*
> Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>
> This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
> draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
> to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
>
> Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
> otherwise).
>
> This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
>
> Regards
>
> Matthew
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>   


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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Remember all packets that have a mutual order sensitivity go in the same
flow - that is
the definition of a flow.

A flow is a group of packets that have a "ships in the night"
relationship with another
flow.

An example would be two TCP sessions.

Stewart

liu.guoman@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
> stewart:
> for FAT PW Draft, though it realize a "big" traffics will be
> tranported by a few pw channel by ECMP. the key problem: how to keep
> ordering for big traffics?
>
> regards
> liu
>
>
> *Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>*
> ·¢¼þÈË: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org
>
> 2009-04-02 00:38
> Çë´ð¸´ ¸ø
> stbryant@cisco.com
>
>
> 	
> ÊÕ¼þÈË
> 	BUSI ITALO <Italo.Busi@alcatel-lucent.it>
> ³­ËÍ
> 	neil.2.harrison@bt.com, pwe3@ietf.org
> Ö÷Ìâ
> 	Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
> Sorry I misread the subject line - that's the problem with having
> two drafts running in parallel :)
>
> Pkt PW may apply to MPLS-TP that is a MEAD team call.
>
> Fat PW I assume is only applicable to classic. The only way that
> I can see to do LAG in a transport context is to do pw-bonding, otherwise
> you violate the ordering.
>
> Sorry for any confusion.
>
> Stewart
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> BUSI ITALO wrote:
> > Stewart,
> >
> > Could you please clarify the applicability of Fat PW to MPLS-TP?
> >
> > In SF, you stated that they are applicable to "ECMP and LAG case" and
> > this matched with my understanding of the draft.
> >
> > Due to the fact that ECMP is not used in MPLS-TP, I had assumed this
> > draft is not applicable in MPLS-TP.
> >
> > Did I miss/misunderstand anything?
> >
> > Thanks, Italo
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:55 PM
> >> To: neil.2.harrison@bt.com
> >> Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> >>
> >> The draft has applicability to Transport.
> >>
> >> I will come to the details below in a minute, but tell me how you
> >> propose to cope with
> >> ESSM in a client - surely you need to intervene rather than
> >> carry them
> >> transparently?
> >>
> >> Remember that the client layer performs the classification
> >> into protocol
> >> types
> >> so we just carry the classification over the server layer in a more
> >> convenient way.
> >>
> >> Remember if you don't like the pkt-pw you can always put a
> >> real interface in
> >> and use a L2 pw, and if you don't like that you can always
> >> but a clear
> >> fibre. What you do depends on how you wish to run the economics.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> neil.2.harrison@bt.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Stewart, can I please ask if this draft would be applicable
> >>>
> >> to MPLS-TP?
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I ask this because a transport network should satisfy the
> >>>
> >> requirements
> >>
> >>> of transparency....which in brief means:
> >>>
> >>> - all client bits treated equally
> >>>
> >> That happens here
> >>
> >>> - client bit ordering preserved
> >>>
> >> That also happens here
> >>
> >>> - no attempt made to try understand semantics of client
> >>>
> >> symbols (ie
> >>
> >>> client message/traffic-unit formed from N client bits) and never
> >>> change client bits
> >>>
> >> In this mechanism it is the client layer that makes the changes - not
> >> the server layer. The client presents the packet and and
> >> metadata saying
> >> what pid the server is to write into the PID
> >>
> >>> - server ensures client X traffic behaviour cannot impact
> >>> performance experienced by client Y
> >>>
> >> We pass that test
> >>
> >>>
> >>> ...and I cannot reconcile this with this draft. So perhaps
> >>>
> >> this draft
> >>
> >>> is only intended to apply to 'classical' MPLS?
> >>>
> >> It's not clear that it fails the test when you realize that
> >> the client
> >> is presenting the modified data to the server.
> >>
> >> Stewart
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> regards, Neil
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ----------
> >>
> >>> *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> >>> Behalf Of *BOCCI Matthew
> >>> *Sent:* 31 March 2009 12:51
> >>> *To:* pwe3@ietf.org
> >>> *Subject:* [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> >>>
> >>> This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to
> >>> move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03
> >>> to a PWE3 Working Group draft.
> >>>
> >>> Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
> >>> otherwise).
> >>>
> >>> This poll will close on 14th April 2009.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Matthew
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> pwe3 mailing list
> >> pwe3@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > pwe3 mailing list
> > pwe3@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
>
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From stbryant@cisco.com  Thu Apr  2 04:23:39 2009
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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liu.guoman@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
> Stewart:
> my problem is : if there is a multimedia data flow, the flow must be
> transported in order. or else it will not become a multimedia flow.
> how to process the data flow by ECMP?
> IMO, there are two solutions:
> 1 at sink points, there are enough buffers to store the data flow.
> 2 during transporting the data flow, it must transport in order.
>
> do you think so?
> regards
> liu
>
Yes

Remember this draft is simply a tool that is used to spread out already
identified flows over the ECMP set.

The processing into and out of a fat pw is outside it's scope.

Clearly you can enable s/n - apply the LB label - and put the flow back
together at the egress if that suits you application otherwise as you
say you have to have large enough end to end b/w.

Remember what it says in the PWE3 charter - if the best effort emulation
provided by PWE3 is not good enough, then either propose a better
emulation, or use a real wire.

Stewart



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Support=20

=20

Ronen Solomon

=20

________________________________

From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Rajeev Manur
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:54 PM
To: BOCCI Matthew; pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?

=20

Support.

=20

--Rajeev Manur

=20

=20

________________________________

From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
BOCCI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:51 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?

This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03=20
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.=20

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20

=20


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1 dir=3DRTL>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Support =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ronen =
Solomon<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DLTR =
style=3D'text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Rajeev Manur<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April =
01, 2009
11:54 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> BOCCI Matthew; =
pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [PWE3]
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG =
draft?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Support.</span></=
font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>--Rajeev =
Manur</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DLTR =
style=3D'text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>BOCCI Matthew<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 31, =
2009 4:51
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [PWE3]
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG =
draft?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->This is the start of a two =
week
poll to judge the consensus to move =
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;to
a PWE3 Working Group draft.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
otherwise).</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>This poll will close on 14th April 2009.</span></font> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Regards</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p dir=3DLTR><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Matthew</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal dir=3DLTR><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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support


Von: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von =
BOCCI Matthew
	Gesendet: Dienstag, 31. M=E4rz 2009 13:51
	An: pwe3@ietf.org
	Betreff: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
=09
=09

	This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move =
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03=20
	 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.=20

	Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or =
otherwise).=20

	This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

	Regards=20

	Matthew=20



Deutsche Telekom Netzproduktion GmbH
T-Com, Zentrum Technik Einf=FChrung
Ulrich Drafz
Leiter, TE142
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E-Mail: Ulrich.Drafz@telekom.de
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Registerrechtliche Unternehmensangaben:
Deutsche Telekom Netzproduktion GmbH
Aufsichtsrat: Timotheus H=F6=F6tges (Vorsitzender)
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Klaus Peren
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn HRB 14190, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Bonn
USt-IdNr. DE 814645262

Erleben, was verbindet.


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<TITLE>[PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">support</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Von: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org =
[</FONT><A HREF=3D"mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org</FONT></U></A><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">] Im Auftrag von BOCCI Matthew</FONT>

<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Gesendet: Dienstag, 31. M=E4rz 2009 13:51</FONT>

<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">An: pwe3@ietf.org</FONT>

<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Betreff: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to =
WG draft?</FONT>

<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20

<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">This is the start of a two week poll to judge the =
consensus to move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 </FONT>

<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> to a PWE3 Working Group draft. </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your =
approval (or otherwise). </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">This poll will close on 14th April 2009. </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Regards </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Matthew </FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Deutsche Telekom Netzproduktion =
GmbH</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">T-Com, Zentrum Technik =
Einf=FChrung</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Ulrich Drafz</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Leiter, TE142</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Hammerstrasse 216 - 226, D-48153 =
M=FCnster</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">+49 251 7985-400 (Tel.)</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">+49 251 7985-109 (Fax)</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">+49 171 2209397 (Mobil)</FONT>

<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">E-Mail: =
Ulrich.Drafz@telekom.de</FONT>

<BR><A HREF=3D"http://www.telekom.de"><U></U><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.telekom.de</FONT></U></A>
</P>

<P><U><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Registerrechtliche =
Unternehmensangaben:</FONT></U>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Deutsche Telekom Netzproduktion =
GmbH<BR>
Aufsichtsrat: Timotheus H=F6=F6tges (Vorsitzender)<BR>
Gesch=E4ftsleitung: Friedrich Fu=DF (Vorsitzender), Albert Matheis, =
Klaus Peren<BR>
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn HRB 14190, Sitz der Gesellschaft: =
Bonn</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">USt-IdNr. DE 814645262</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Erleben, was verbindet.</FONT>
</P>

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From riccardo.martinotti@ericsson.com  Thu Apr  2 06:05:26 2009
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From: "Riccardo Martinotti" <riccardo.martinotti@ericsson.com>
To: "BOCCI Matthew" <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, <pwe3@ietf.org>
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The network scenario considered into the draft is certainly of interest, =
the case where client is "classic" MPLS and server is MPLS-TP is also =
described into draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking-01, Section 7.1.3. =
(IP/MPLS / MPLS-TP hybrid edge node)

I have one comment/question to the authors: In section 2 there is =
reference to RFC 3985, Figure 3, however it is not specified which of =
the two interworking functions is referred to. I suppose, due to the =
presence of virtual physical termination, that the one with =
pre-processing is referred. How is it defined the relationship between =
the Attachment Circuit and the PW, in term of Forwarder and Native =
Service Processing?

Thank you and regards,

Riccardo

=20

________________________________

From: mpls-tp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mpls-tp-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of BOCCI Matthew
Sent: marted=EC 31 marzo 2009 14.01
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Cc: mpls-tp@ietf.org
Subject: [mpls-tp] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?

=20

This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move =
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or =
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20

=20


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<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>The network scenario considered into the draft is certainly of =
interest,
the case where client is &#8220;classic&#8221; MPLS and server is =
MPLS-TP is
also described into draft-martinotti-mpls-tp-interworking-01, Section =
7.1.3. (IP/MPLS
/ MPLS-TP hybrid edge node)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>I have one comment/question to the authors: In section 2 there is =
reference
to RFC 3985, Figure 3, however it is not specified which of the two
interworking functions is referred to. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I suppose, due to the =
presence of
virtual physical termination, that the one with pre-processing is =
referred. </span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>How
is it defined the relationship between the Attachment Circuit and the =
PW, in
term of Forwarder and Native Service =
Processing?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thank
you and regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Riccardo<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
mpls-tp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mpls-tp-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>BOCCI Matthew<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> marted=EC 31 marzo =
2009 14.01<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">mpls-tp@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [mpls-tp] =
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt
to WG draft?</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This
is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group =
draft.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Please
can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or =
otherwise).</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This
poll will close on 14th April 2009.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Regards</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Matthew</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:08:42 +0100
From: Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.

Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April
so that the chairs can judge consensus.

Thanks

Stewart

From DALLAN@nortel.com  Thu Apr  2 10:17:20 2009
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From: "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com>
To: <stbryant@cisco.com>, "pwe3" <pwe3@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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Hi Stewart

Comment that most resonated with me in Dublin was "how frequently would
mirrored nodes be multi-vendor", implying minimal interest from anyone
in standardizing this...

That seemed to be group consensus at the time, what has changed?

Cheers
Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Stewart Bryant
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
To: pwe3
Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?

The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.

Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
chairs can judge consensus.

Thanks

Stewart
_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

From tom.nadeau@bt.com  Thu Apr  2 10:21:59 2009
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From: "Thomas D. Nadeau" <tom.nadeau@bt.com>
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On 4/2/09 1:17 PM, "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com> wrote:

> Hi Stewart
> 
> Comment that most resonated with me in Dublin was "how frequently would
> mirrored nodes be multi-vendor", implying minimal interest from anyone
> in standardizing this...

    Speaking as a service provider interested in providing multi-vendor
interoperability on this function, I'd disagree that there is minimal
interest in standardizing this. I build and deploy multi-vendor networks and
need this feature to work on different platforms. There might not be
interest from vendors like youself (although the three I use are), having
spoken to other colleagues on the SP side, they are interested. I hope they
chime in on this thread to this effect.

    --Tom



> That seemed to be group consensus at the time, what has changed?
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Stewart Bryant
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
> To: pwe3
> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
> 
> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
> 
> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
> 
> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
> chairs can judge consensus.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Stewart
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

-- 
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks



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Support,

Thanks,

Sami
At 10:08 AM 4/2/2009, Stewart Bryant wrote:
>The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>
>http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>
>have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>
>Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April
>so that the chairs can judge consensus.
>
>Thanks
>
>Stewart
>_______________________________________________
>pwe3 mailing list
>pwe3@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3



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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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Support.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Stewart Bryant (stbryant)
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
To: pwe3
Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?

The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.

Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
chairs can judge consensus.

Thanks

Stewart
_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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Please will the authors clarify the IPR position.

Stewart

Shahram Davari wrote:
> Hi Stewart
>
> Could you please clarify whether there is any patent claim related to this
> draft or not? 
>
> Thanks,
> Shahram
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Stewart Bryant
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
> To: pwe3
> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
>
> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>
> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>
> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
> chairs can judge consensus.
>
> Thanks
>
> Stewart
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
>
>   


From tom.nadeau@bt.com  Thu Apr  2 11:57:02 2009
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From: "Thomas D. Nadeau" <tom.nadeau@bt.com>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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    There are no claims from BT.

    --Tom



On 4/2/09 2:52 PM, "Stewart Bryant" <stbryant@cisco.com> wrote:

> Please will the authors clarify the IPR position.
> 
> Stewart
> 
> Shahram Davari wrote:
>> Hi Stewart
>> 
>> Could you please clarify whether there is any patent claim related to this
>> draft or not? 
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Shahram
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Stewart Bryant
>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
>> To: pwe3
>> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
>> 
>> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>> 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>> 
>> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>> 
>> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
>> chairs can judge consensus.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Stewart
>> _______________________________________________
>> pwe3 mailing list
>> pwe3@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>> _______________________________________________
>> pwe3 mailing list
>> pwe3@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>> 
>> 
>>   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

-- 
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks



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Support.

-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Thomas D. Nadeau
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 2:57 PM
To: Stewart Bryant (stbryant); davarish@yahoo.com
Cc: 'pwe3'
Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?


    There are no claims from BT.

    --Tom



On 4/2/09 2:52 PM, "Stewart Bryant" <stbryant@cisco.com> wrote:

> Please will the authors clarify the IPR position.
>=20
> Stewart
>=20
> Shahram Davari wrote:
>> Hi Stewart
>>=20
>> Could you please clarify whether there is any patent claim related to

>> this draft or not?
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Shahram
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
>> Of Stewart Bryant
>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
>> To: pwe3
>> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
>>=20
>> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>>=20
>> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>>=20
>> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the=20
>> chairs can judge consensus.
>>=20
>> Thanks
>>=20
>> Stewart
>> _______________________________________________
>> pwe3 mailing list
>> pwe3@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>> _______________________________________________
>> pwe3 mailing list
>> pwe3@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>>=20
>>=20
>>  =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

--
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks


_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
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From lmartini@cisco.com  Thu Apr  2 12:30:31 2009
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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Stewart Bryant wrote:
> Please will the authors clarify the IPR position.
>
> Stewart
>
> Shahram Davari wrote:
>> Hi Stewart
>>
>> Could you please clarify whether there is any patent claim related to 
>> this
>> draft or not?
No , No patent claim has been filed at this time.
Luca

>> Thanks,
>> Shahram
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Stewart Bryant
>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
>> To: pwe3
>> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
>>
>> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>>
>> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>>
>> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
>> chairs can judge consensus.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Stewart
>> _______________________________________________
>> pwe3 mailing list
>> pwe3@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>> _______________________________________________
>> pwe3 mailing list
>> pwe3@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>>
>>
>>   
>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3


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On Apr 2, 2009, at 11:17 AM, David Allan wrote:

> Comment that most resonated with me in Dublin was "how frequently  
> would
> mirrored nodes be multi-vendor", implying minimal interest from anyone
> in standardizing this...


The Dublin meeting minutes don't seem to support your statement
above.  Specifically, while the minutes are somewhat ambiguous as
to the source, they do state "Several proprietary versions floating
around, but providers want standardized version."  I believe that
was Luca [graciously proxying in his usual fashion for what providers
want :-)], but it seems a valid point to me.

In regard to your question, it's certainly safe to assume the answer
is "MUCH LESS frequently absent a mechanism such as ICCP".

-danny


From DALLAN@nortel.com  Thu Apr  2 13:17:22 2009
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From: "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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My meeting notes do not provide an attribution either ... It was simply
the comment at the mike that stood out to me that best summarized and
explained the apparent ambivilance of the room at the time....

If there is more to this than "gracious proxying of desire..."  then I
have no objections... ;-)

D

-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Danny McPherson
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 3:58 PM
To: pwe3
Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?


On Apr 2, 2009, at 11:17 AM, David Allan wrote:

> Comment that most resonated with me in Dublin was "how frequently=20
> would mirrored nodes be multi-vendor", implying minimal interest from=20
> anyone in standardizing this...


The Dublin meeting minutes don't seem to support your statement above.
Specifically, while the minutes are somewhat ambiguous as to the source,
they do state "Several proprietary versions floating around, but
providers want standardized version."  I believe that was Luca
[graciously proxying in his usual fashion for what providers want :-)],
but it seems a valid point to me.

In regard to your question, it's certainly safe to assume the answer is
"MUCH LESS frequently absent a mechanism such as ICCP".

-danny

_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

From tom.nadeau@bt.com  Thu Apr  2 13:45:51 2009
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From: "Thomas D. Nadeau" <tom.nadeau@bt.com>
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On 4/2/09 3:57 PM, "Danny McPherson" <danny@tcb.net> wrote:

> 
> On Apr 2, 2009, at 11:17 AM, David Allan wrote:
> 
>> Comment that most resonated with me in Dublin was "how frequently
>> would
>> mirrored nodes be multi-vendor", implying minimal interest from anyone
>> in standardizing this...
> 
> 
> The Dublin meeting minutes don't seem to support your statement
> above.  Specifically, while the minutes are somewhat ambiguous as
> to the source, they do state "Several proprietary versions floating
> around, but providers want standardized version."  I believe that
> was Luca [graciously proxying in his usual fashion for what providers
> want :-)], but it seems a valid point to me.
    
    And I've clarified this, at least from one current operator using PWE3s.
*)

    --Tom


> In regard to your question, it's certainly safe to assume the answer
> is "MUCH LESS frequently absent a mechanism such as ICCP".
> 
> -danny
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

-- 
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks



From nitinb@juniper.net  Thu Apr  2 15:15:03 2009
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From: Nitin Bahadur <nitinb@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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The draft addresses a good problem, but having it's applicability just
to PW/LDP
doesn't make sense. The transport mechansim for ICCP should be TCP and
not LDP IMO.
Then the draft and procedures can be used by any protocol that wants
ICCP like behavior.

Are we going the route of trying to come up with different standards for
different
inter-chassis communication needs? If yes, then I (personally), would
rather come up with a proprietary solution that solves all my ICC needs
using a single protocol.

My 2 cents (speaking as an individual)
Nitin

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org]=20
> On Behalf=20
> > Of Stewart Bryant
> > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
> > To: pwe3
> > Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
> >
> > The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
> >
> > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
> >
> > have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
> >
> > Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the=20
> > chairs can judge consensus.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Stewart

From y.kamite@ntt.com  Thu Apr  2 20:37:32 2009
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Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:34:35 +0900
From: "Yuji KAMITE" <y.kamite@ntt.com>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Support.

- Yuji

________________________________

	From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BOCCI Matthew
	Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:51 PM
	To: pwe3@ietf.org
	Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
	
	

	This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 
	 to a PWE3 Working Group draft. 

	Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or otherwise). 

	This poll will close on 14th April 2009. 

	Regards 

	Matthew 




From y.kamite@ntt.com  Thu Apr  2 20:39:47 2009
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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I support this as very valuable work in general,
as I believe most SPs now will have desire for multi-vendor
possibility that supports redundancy.
However, I still have questions and a little concern.
Clarification is expected:

- It looks like the current drafts focuses on mLACP a lot, but
  I'm wondering if this fully explains what this mechanism means
  in reality in terms of PW's native service (e.g., description 
  about LAG forwarding behavior is missing). 
  It needs to distinguish between PW-specific part (from the view
  of operators) and Ethernet MAC/PHY-specific part (from the view
  of CE), because the current draft seems to be mixing them up.
  Also this is also the case in other applications
  (multi-chassis APS etc.).

- I couldn't find any statement why LDP is used for
  underlying protocol.  The proposed method doesn't advertise any labels.
  Does ICCP has no relationship with data-path between
  redundant PEs?   Please elaborate if there is any specific requirement
  or rationale from the view of protocol design, to adopt LDP.

- This might be editorial, but it might be better to
  split more distinctly the common protocol part and the application-specific
  behavior and its TLVs (whether or not they are sepcified in one
  document). 

Best regards,
-Yuji


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:09 AM
> To: pwe3
> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
> 
> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
> 
> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
> 
> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so 
> that the chairs can judge consensus.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Stewart
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3


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--=_alternative 002744344825758D_=--


From frederic.jounay@orange-ftgroup.com  Fri Apr  3 00:13:33 2009
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Support.
Fred


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Stewart Bryant
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:09 AM
> To: pwe3
> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
>=20
> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>=20
> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>=20
> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the=20
> chairs can judge consensus.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Stewart
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

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From Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Apr  3 02:09:25 2009
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Folks,

This is a heads-up that there is a working group last call in L2tpext
for the following draft:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2tpext-circuit-status-ex
tensions-03.txt

The LC ends on 10th April.

Please review the draft and address any comments to the L2tpext list.

Regards

Matthew


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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">This is a heads-up that there is a =
working group last call in L2tpext for the following draft:</FONT>
</P>

<P><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2tpext-circuit-st=
atus-extensions-03.txt"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-l2tpext-cir=
cuit-status-extensions-03.txt</FONT></U></A>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The LC ends on 10th April.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Please review the draft and address any =
comments to the L2tpext list.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Regards</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Matthew</FONT>
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From Edwin.Mallette@bhnis.com  Fri Apr  3 06:18:15 2009
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To: "Thomas D. Nadeau" <tom.nadeau@bt.com>, Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3 <pwe3@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 09:19:07 -0400
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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I concur with Tom here.  As a multiservice operator we also have a high deg=
ree of interest in multivendor interop for mc-LAG, mc-APS functions which t=
his draft enables.

 -Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tho=
mas D. Nadeau
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:23 PM
To: David Allan; Stewart Bryant; pwe3
Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?




On 4/2/09 1:17 PM, "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com> wrote:

> Hi Stewart
>
> Comment that most resonated with me in Dublin was "how frequently would
> mirrored nodes be multi-vendor", implying minimal interest from anyone
> in standardizing this...

    Speaking as a service provider interested in providing multi-vendor
interoperability on this function, I'd disagree that there is minimal
interest in standardizing this. I build and deploy multi-vendor networks an=
d
need this feature to work on different platforms. There might not be
interest from vendors like youself (although the three I use are), having
spoken to other colleagues on the SP side, they are interested. I hope they
chime in on this thread to this effect.

    --Tom



> That seemed to be group consensus at the time, what has changed?
>
> Cheers
> Dave
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Stewart Bryant
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
> To: pwe3
> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
>
> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>
> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>
> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
> chairs can judge consensus.
>
> Thanks
>
> Stewart
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

--
Principal Architect - 21CN Networks


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From hhelvoort@chello.nl  Fri Apr  3 06:36:08 2009
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To the authors:

What do you mean by "SONET APS" and where is it located
in figure 1?

I could not find any reference in the refence sections either.

Regards, Huub.

=====================
> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
> 
> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
> 
> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April
> so that the chairs can judge consensus.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Stewart


-- 
================================================================
Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...

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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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Support.

Regards

Philippe.

-----Message d'origine-----
De : pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
Stewart Bryant
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 2 avril 2009 19:09
=C0 : pwe3
Objet : [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?

The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.

Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the =
chairs can judge consensus.

Thanks

Stewart
_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3

From hshah@ciena.com  Fri Apr  3 10:04:17 2009
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Thread-Topic: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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From: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>
To: "BOCCI Matthew" <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, <pwe3@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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I am skeptical about using this technique per say and wonder
if a generic mechanism could solve this as well as any other problems,=20
now or future, proprietary extensions, etc etc.
=20
The one I am thinking about is that of 'generic preamble'.
The inclusion and size of preamble is signalled between two PEs
during PW establishment where offset to where PW header (i.e. control
word, if present)
begins is exchanged. At dataplane level, egress PE peels off the
preamble
and either discards it or feeds it to the secret sauce processor.
=20
The PEs can then use preamble for various cases including as flow handle
for ECMP,=20
encryption keys, stats, timestamps, etc etc.
=20
/himanshu



________________________________

From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
BOCCI Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:51 AM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?



This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03=20
 to a PWE3 Working Group draft.=20

Please can you respond to the PWE3 list with your approval (or
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE =
HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML =
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><HTML><head><META =
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type"><TITLE>draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG =
draft?</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3492" name=3DGENERATOR></head><BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>I am skeptical about =
using this=20
technique per say and wonder</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>if a generic =
mechanism=20
could&nbsp;solve this as well </FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old =
Style" size=3D2>as any other problems,=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>now or future, =
proprietary=20
extensions, etc etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>The one I am =
thinking about is=20
that of 'generic preamble'.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>The inclusion and =
size&nbsp;of=20
preamble is signalled between two PEs</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>during PW =
establishment where=20
offset to where PW header (i.e. control word, if =
present)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>begins is exchanged. =
At dataplane=20
level, egress PE peels off the preamble</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>and either discards =
it or feeds it=20
to the secret sauce processor.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>The PEs can then use =
preamble for=20
various cases including as flow&nbsp;handle for ECMP, =
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D2>encryption keys, =
stats,=20
timestamps, etc etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D255275016-03042009><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff face=3D"Bookman Old Style" =
size=3D2>/himanshu</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us>
</DIV><BR><IMG ALIGN=3D"baseline" ALT BORDER=3D"0" HSPACE=3D"0" =
SRC=3D"cid:imageaa4fe8.gif@10c062de.bd3f485b"><BR><DIV align=3Dleft =
class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us><HR =
tabIndex=3D-1></DIV><DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader =
dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> pwe3-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>BOCCI =
Matthew<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:51 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
pwe3@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
[PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is the start of a two week poll to =
judge the=20
consensus to move draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;to a PWE3 Working Group draft.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please can you respond to the PWE3 list =
with your=20
approval (or otherwise).</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This poll will close on 14th April =
2009.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Matthew</FONT> </P><BR><BR></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Jiang,

Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
this as simple as possible.

Thanks,
Andy

2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>:
>
> Sir,
>
> Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level Data
> Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have more
> encapsulation overhead)
>
> Thank you!

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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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Hi Stewart

Could you please clarify whether there is any patent claim related to this
draft or not? 

Thanks,
Shahram



-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Stewart Bryant
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
To: pwe3
Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?

The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt

have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.

Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
chairs can judge consensus.

Thanks

Stewart
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From lmartini@cisco.com  Mon Apr  6 15:27:34 2009
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Cc: pwe3 <pwe3@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-pwe3-segmented-pw@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] Comments on draft-ietf-pwe3-segmented-pw-11.txt
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Thanks Stewart.
Comments Below.


Luca

Stewart Bryant wrote:
>
> I have done a line by line review of
> draft-ietf-pwe3-segmented-pw-11.txt and have a
> number of comments. The overwhelming majority
> of these are editorial but there are a few
> technical questions most of which are
> clarification issues.
>
>
> I think that we need to proceed a follows:
>
> Please will the authors need to take a look
> at my comments and address the text as necessary.
>
> Then I think that we need to do three things
>
> 1) Ask MPLS WG if they are happy with the
> LDP material.
>
> 2) Ask L2TPext WG if they are happy with the
> L2TP text.
>
> 3) A couple of other members if PWE3 WG need
> to volunteer to read the next version in case
> there is anything else that has been missed.
>
> - Stewart
>
> =======================================================
>
>
>                          Segmented Pseudowire
>
>
>                  draft-ietf-pwe3-segmented-pw-11.txt
>
>
> Abstract
>
>   This document describes how to connect pseudowires (PW) between two
>   distinct PW control planes or PSN domains. The PW control planes may
>   belong to independent autonomous systems, or the PSN technology is
> SB> technolgy may be hetrogeneous
>   heterogeneous, or a PW might need to be aggregated at a specific PSN
>   point. The PW packet data units are simply switched from one PW to
>   another without changing the PW payload.
> SB> That is true for MPLS but MPLS <> L2TPv3 involves a little
> SB> more - for example the frame relay formats are different.
>
>
>
>
> 2. Terminology
>
> SB> This needs a reference to draft-ietf-pwe3-ms-pw-arch-06.txt
> SB> I wonder if we need it here at all since we are going to
> SB> have to make sure it survives the various editing rounds
> SB> to pub remaining word for word identical to the above
> SB> draft.
>
I would like to keep this here, since it makes the document readable.
>     - PW Terminating Provider Edge (T-PE). A PE where the customer-
>       facing attachment circuits (ACs) are bound to a PW forwarder. A
>       Terminating PE is present in the first and last segments of a
>       MS-PW. This incorporates the functionality of a PE as defined in
>       [RFC3985].
>
>     - Single-Segment Pseudowire (SS-PW). A PW setup directly between
>       two T-PE devices. Each PW in one direction of a SS-PW traverses
>       one PSN tunnel that connects the two T-PEs.
>
>     - Multi-Segment Pseudowire (MS-PW).  A static or dynamically
>       configured set of two or more contiguous PW segments that behave
>       and function as a single point-to-point PW. Each end of a MS-PW
>       by definition MUST terminate on a T-PE.
>
> SB> ... and to prove my point PW Segment, & S-PE have different
> SB> definitions and PW Switching is not defined here but is defined
> SB> in ms-pw-arch
>
I will fix this omission.


>     - PW Segment. A part of a single-segment or multi-segment PW, which
>       is set up between two PE devices, T-PEs and/or S-PEs.
>
>     - Pw Switching Provider Edge (S-PE).  A PE capable of switching the
>       control and data planes of the preceding and succeeding PW
>       segments in a MS-PW. The S-PE terminates the PSN tunnels of the
>       preceding and succeeding segments of the MS-PW.
>
>
> 3. Introduction
>
>   PWE3 defines the signaling and encapsulation techniques for
> SB> Do you mean PWE3 here?
> SB> Maybe you need to say PWE3 previously defined..., or
> SB> maybe you should callup ms-pw requirements as a way of intro
>   establishing SS-PWs between a pair of terminating PEs and in the vast
>   majority of cases this will be sufficient. MS-PWs come into play in
>   two general cases:
>
changed to:
The PWE3 Architecture [rfc3985],
> SB>RFC editor will definately change "come into play"
>
ok changed to "are most useful"

>        -i. When it is not possible, desirable or feasible to establish
>            a PW control channel between the ultimate source and
>            destination PEs. At a minimum PW control channel
>            establishment requires knowledge of and reachability to the
>            remote (ultimate) PE IP address. The local (ultimate) PE may
> SB> For consistency we should use the term T-PE (this applies
> SB> in multiple places
yes , this is a side effect of the terminology changes, i will do a 
search for all " ultimate" occurrences
fixed.

>            not have access to this information related to topology,
>            operational or security constraints.
>
>            An example is the inter-AS L2VPN scenario where the ultimate
>            PEs reside in different provider networks (ASes) and it is
>            the practice to MD5-key all control traffic exchanged
> SB> Is MD5 ok with SEC AD? Is the correct verb "MD5-key"?
> SB> Maybe you should just use the term "cryptogtaphiclly sign"
> SB> effects rest of para.
yes.  Fixed.
>            between two networks. Technically a SS-PW could be used but
>            this would require MD5-keying on ALL ultimate source and
>            destination PE nodes. An MS-PW allows the providers to
>            confine MD5 key administration to just the PW switching
>            points connecting the two domains.
>
> <snip>
>
>       -ii. PWE3 signaling and encapsulation protocols are different.
>            The ultimate PEs are connected to networks employing
> SB> Again use of undefined term ultimate
fixed everywhere.
>            different PW signaling and encapsulation protocols. In this
>            case it is not possible to use a SS-PW. A MS-PW with the
>            appropriate interworking performed at the PW switching
>            points can enable PW connectivity between the ultimate PEs
>            in this scenario.
> <snip>
>
>
> 4. General Description
>
>   A pseudowire (PW) is a tunnel established between two provider edge
>   (PE) nodes to transport L2 PDUs across a packet switched network
> SB> Isn't it to interconnect attachement circuits.
> SB> We also support TDM which is not L2 PDU
>   (PSN) as described in Figure 1 and in [RFC3985]. Many providers have
>   deployed PWs as a means of migrating existing (or building new) L2VPN
>   services (e.g.. Frame Relay, ATM, or Ethernet) on to a PSN.
>
> <snip>
> SB> There is a lot of overlap in this descriptive material with ms-pw 
> arch
> SB> I wonder how much of this overlap is useful?
>
yes. This is really an introduction, as we have on all pwe3 documents.
I'm open to remove it, but it is nice to read one document , and 
understand the technology without constantly going back to the 
architecture document.

> <snip>
> SB> There is something wrong with this next para. Did you snip
> SB> out some preceeding text - it starts very abruptly and
> SB> then strangely changes direction in the middle.
> SB> I think that you need to take a look at rewording it.
> SB> You might want to break it up into small bits.
>
I made some minor changes to this paragraph. However it seems to be 
mostly fine.
here is the current text:
"The general approach taken for MS-PWs is to connect the individual control
planes by passing along any signaling information immediately upon
reception. First the S-PE is configured to switch a SS-PW from a specific
peer to another SS-PW destined for a different peer. No control messages are
exchanged yet as the S-PE PE does not have enough information to actually
initiate the PW setup messages. However, if a session does not already
exist, a control protocol (LDP/L2TP) session MAY be setup. In this model the
MS-PW setup is starting from the T-PE devices. Next once the T-PE is
configured it sends the PW control setup messages. These messages are
received by the S-PE, and immediately used to form the PW setup messages for
the next SS-PW of the MS-PW. If one of the S-PEs doesn't accept an LDP Label
Mapping message then a Label Release message may be sent back to the
originator T-PE depending on the cause of the error. LDP liberal label
retention mode still applies, hence if a PE is simply not configured yet ,
the label mapping is stored for future use. A MS-PW is declared UP only when
all the constituent SS-PWs are UP."

does this work ?

>   In general the approach taken is to connect the individual control
>   planes by passing along any signaling information immediately upon
>   reception. First the S-PE is configured to switch a SS-PW from a
>   specific peer to another SS-PW destined for a different peer. No
>   control messages are exchanged yet as the S-PE PE does not have
>   enough information to actually initiate the PW setup messages.
>   However, if a session does not already exist, a control protocol
>   (LDP/L2TP) session MAY be setup. In this model the MS-PW setup is
>   starting from the T-PE devices. Next once the T-PE is configured it
>   sends the PW control setup messages. These messages are received, and
>   immediately used to form the PW setup messages for the next SS-PW of
>   the MS-PW. If one of the Switching PEs doesn't accept an LDP Label
>   Mapping message then a Label Release message may be sent back to the
>   originator T-PE depending on the cause of the error. LDP liberal
>   label retention mode still applies, hence if a PE is simply not
>   configured yet , the label mapping is stored for future use. A MS-PW
>   is declared UP when all the constituent SS-PWs are UP.
>
>
>
> 5. PW Switching and Attachment Circuit Type
>
>   The PWs in each PSN are established independently, with each PSN
>   being treated as a separate PWE3 domain. For example, in Figure 2 for
> SB> Again do you mean PWE3 domain or PW domain or some other sort of 
> domain?
> SB> missed out the word "the"
PW domain .  Fixed.
>   case of MPLS PSNs, PW1 is setup between PE1 and PE2 using the LDP
>   targeted session as described in [RFC4447], and at the same time a
>   separate pseudowire, PW2, is setup between PE3 and PE4. The ACs for
>   PW1 and PW2 at PE2 and PE3 MUST be configured such that they are the
>   same PW type e.g. ATM VCC, Ethernet VLAN, etc.
>
>
> 6. Applicability
>
>   The general applicability of MS-PWs and their relationship to L2VPNs
>   is described in [MS-PW-ARCH]. The applicability of a PW type, as
>   specified in the relevant RFC for that encapsulation (e.g. [RFC4717]
>   for ATM), applies to each segment. This section describes further
>   applicability considerations.
>
>   In comon with SS-PWs, the performance of any segment of a MS-PW is
>   equal to the performance of the PSN plus any impairments Introduced
> SB> performance of the PSN less any impairments?
I take impairments as a negative , so we add impairments to a network , 
it makes it worse ...
which is the point here.

>   by the PW layer itself. Therefore it is not possible for the MS-PW to
>   provide better performance than the PSN over which it is transported.
>   Furthermore, the overall performance of an MS-PW is no better than
>   the worst performing segment of that MS-PW.
>
> <snip>
>
> 7. MPLS-PW to MPLS-PW Control Plane Switching
>
>   Referencing Figure 3, PE2 sets up a PW1 using the LDP targeted
> SB> set up PW1 (delete "a")
> SB> In Fig 3 you use the term "PW Segment 1"
> SB> There is no PE2 in Fig 3
Fixed.
>   session as described in [RFC4447], at the same time a separate
>   pseudowire PW3 is setup to PE3. Each PW is configured independently
>   on the PEs, but on PE2 pseudowire PW1 is connected to pseudowire PW3.
>   PDUs are then switched between the pseudowires at the PW label level.
>   Hence the data plane does not need any special knowledge of the
>   specific pseudowire type. A simple standard MPLS label swap operation
>   is sufficient to connect the two PWs, and in this case the PW
>   adaptation function is not used. However when pushing a new PSN label
>   the TTL SHOULD be set to 255, or some other locally configured fixed
>   value.
> SB> The label text above is a bit clumsy you pull a number out of the
> SB> hat. Do you need to call up the pipe model? Comment of QoS?
>
no, ttl=255 is the maximum allowed amount, which is the usual default 
policy.
I do not understand your comment on QoS ... there is no mention of QoS 
in the above text.

>   This process
> can be repeated as many times as necessary, the only
>   limitation to the number of S-PEs traversed is imposed by the TTL
>   field of the PW MPLS Label. The setting of the TTL is a matter of
> SB> PW TTL?
there is no such thing as a PW TTL. the text above is correct.
>   local policy on the originating PE, but SHOULD be set to 255.
> SB> Again do you need to say why 255?
>
> SB> You are in control plane but then swap to TTL for
> SB> a bit surely that should be in data plane?
> SB> You make the raeder jump around in this section.
>
fixed text as follows:
"
This process can be repeated as many times as necessary, the only limitation
to the number of S-PEs traversed is imposed by the TTL field of the PW MPLS
Label. The setting of the TTL is a matter of local policy on the originating
PE, but SHOULD be set to 255. However if the PW PDU contains an OAM packet
then the TTL can be set to the required value as explained later in this
document.
"

The control plane set what the TTL should be , so this is a good place 
as any to discuss this.
I'm open to suggestions. The data plane discussion could be split, but 
there is so little to say that we do not have a section on it.
So we put this text in the general MPLS-MPLS section.


> <snip>
>
> 7.1. Static Control plane switching
> SB> It might be helpful to the reader to call out
> SB> the case numbers from the list above.
>
>   In the case of two static control planes the S-PE MUST be configured
>   to direct the MPLS packets from one PW into the other. There is no
>   control protocol involved in this case. When one of the control
>   planes is a simple static PW configuration and the other control
>   plane is a dynamic LDP FEC 128 or generalized PW FEC, then the static
>   control plane should be considered identical to an attachment circuit
>   (AC) in the reference model of Figure 1. The switching point PE
>   SHOULD signal the proper PW status if it detects a failure in sending
> SB> What do you mean by proper?
i meant "appropriate" .. fixed.

>   or receiving packets over the static PW segment.  Because the PW is
>   statically configured, the status communicated to the dynamic LDP PW
>   will be limited to local interface failures. In this case, the S-PE
>   PE behaves in a very similar manner to a T-PE, assuming an active
>   role.
> SB> What do you mean by "assuming an active role"
active/passive is defined elsewhere in this document. It means that the 
S-PE will send a PW label mapping immediately.
see previous section "FEC 129 Active/Passive T-PE Election Procedure"


>   This means that the S-PE will immediately send the LDP Label
>   Mapping message if the static PW is deemed to be UP.
>
>
> 7.2. Two LDP control planes using the same FEC type
>
>   As stated in a section above, the S-PE PE should assume an initial
> SB> Which section above?
> SB> Not sure "once" is the right word in the para below
 changed to "when"
>   passive role. This means that once independent PWs are configured on
>   the switching point, the LSR does not advertise the LDP PW FEC
>   mapping until it has received at least one of the two PW LDP FECs
>   from a remote PE. This is necessary because the switching point LSR
>   does not know a priori what the interface parameter field in the
>   initial FEC advertisement will contain.
>
> SB> PWID comes out of another hat - you need to point to a definition
> SB> The next para is perhaps a little too cryptic
fixed.
>   The PWID is a unique number between each pair of PEs. Hence Each SS-
>   PW that forms an MS-PW may have a different PWID. In the case of The
>   Generalized PW FEC, the AGI/SAI/TAI may have to also be different for
>   some, or sometimes all, SS-PWs.
>
>
> 7.2.1. FEC 129 Active/Passive T-PE Election Procedure
>
>   When a MS-PW is signaled using FEC 129, each T-PE might independently
>   start signaling the MS-PW. If the MS-PW path is not statically
>   configured, in certain cases the signaling procedure could result in
>   an attempt to setup each direction of the MS-PW through different
>   paths.
> SB> Maybe you need to clarify that you mean different S-PEs. You
> SB> do not care about the PSN paths.
>
fixed.

>   To avoid this situation one of the T-PE MUST start the PW
>   signaling (active role), while the other waits to receive the LDP
>   label mapping before sending the respective PW LDP label mapping
>   message. (passive role). When the MS-PW path not statically
>   configured, the Active T-PE (the ST-PE) and the passive T-PE (the
>   TT-PE) MUST be identified before signaling is initiated for a given
>   MS-PW.
>
>   The determination of which T-PE assume the active role SHOULD be done
>   as follows:
>
>   The SAII and TAII are compared as unsigned integers, if the SAII is
>   bigger then the T-PE assumes the active role.
> SB> Do you mean that the T-PE with the larger xAII assumes the
> SB> active roll? It took a couple of parses to get that.
>

This seems pretty clear to me , and is very similar to the text in rfc5036.
Can you suggest something better ?

>   The selection process to determine which T-PE assumes the active role
>   MAY be superseded by manual provisioning.
>
> SB> If the T-PE with the smaller xAII is configured to be active
> SB> how does the other T-PE know?
>
It does not. The operator is supposed to manually configure the other 
S-PE to be passive.
I would really like to to remove this option, but some operators asked 
for it.
I cannot quantify the advantage of defeating the automatic algorithm.

>
> 7.3. LDP FEC 128 to LDP using the generalized FEC 129
>
>   When a PE is using the generalized FEC 129, there are two distinct
>   roles that a PE can assume: active and passive. A PE that assumes the
>   active role will send the LDP PW setup message, while a passive role
>   PE will simply reply to an incoming LDP PW setup message. The S-PE
>   PE, will always remain passive until a PWID FEC 128 LDP message is
>   received, which will cause the corresponding generalized PW FEC LDP
>   message to be formed and sent. If a generalized FEC PW LDP message is
>   received while the switching point PE is in a passive role, the
>   corresponding PW FEC 128 LDP message will be formed and sent.
>
> SB> It seems like the text about active passive should preceed
> SB> the previous section as it seems less abrupt in nature.
> SB>
>
???
it proceeds the previous section already .....
where do you ant to put this ?

>   PW IDs need to be mapped to the corresponding AGI/TAI/SAI and vice
>   versa.  This can be accomplished by local S-PE configuration, or by
>   some other means, such as some form of auto discovery. Such other
>   means are outside the scope of this document.
>
>
> 7.4. LDP S-PE TLV
>
>   The edge to edge PW might traverse several switching points, in
>   separate administrative domains. For management and troubleshooting
>   reasons it is useful to record information about the switching points
>   that the PW traverses. This is accomplished by using a S-PE TLV.
>
>   Note that sending the S-PE TLV is OPTIONAL, however the PE or S-PE
>   MUST process the TLV upon reception. The S-PE TLV is appended to the
>   PW FEC at each switching point. Each S-PE can append a PW switching
>   point TLV, and the order of the S-PE TLVs MUST be preserved. The S-PE
>   TLV MUST be sent if VCCV operation is required beyond the first MS-PW
>   segment from a T-PE.
>
>   The S-PE TLV is encoded as follows:
>
>    0                   1                   2                   3
>    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |1|0|     PW sw TLV  (0x096D)   |     PW sw TLV  Length         |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |     Type      |    Length     |    Variable Length Value      |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |                       Variable Length Value                   |
>   |                               "                               |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> SB> To be kind to people reading this in Emacs - it would be good
> SB> to put in another " in the line above
>
I Put 3 in , but i think the RFC editor will make it pretty anyhow. :-)

>   [note] LDP TLV type is pending IANA approval.
> SB> Has this TLV request been approved by MPLS WG yet?
>
No it must have been missed... the allocation is available , and we have 
other already allocated but not this one.
Can you please send a request ?

> <snip>
>   The PW switching Point TLV is an OPTIONAL TLV that should appear only
> SB> First you should have given the TLV name when you introduced
> SB> the term above.
> SB> Second this repeats what you just said in para 2 of this
> SB> section
Good catch , i cleaned up the mess resulting in :

Sending the PW switching Point TLV ( S-PE TLV ) is OPTIONAL, however the PE
or S-PE MUST process the TLV upon reception. The "U" bit MUST be set for
backward compatibility with T-PEs that do not support the MS-PW extensions
described in the document. The S-PE TLV MAY appear only once for each
switching point traversed. The S-PE TLV is appended to the PW FEC at each
switching point, and the order of the S-PE TLVs in the LDP message MUST be
preserved. The S-PE TLV MUST be sent if VCCV operation is required beyond
the first MS-PW segment from a T-PE.


>   once for each switching point traversed. If the S-PE TLV is not
>   present with the required sub-TLVs, VCCV operation will not function.
>
>   For local policy reasons, a particular S-PE can filter out all S-PE
>   TLVs in a label mapping message that traverses it and not include
>   it's own S-PE TLV.  In this case, from any upstream PE, it will
>   appear as if this particular S-PE is the T-PE. This might be
>   necessary , depending on local policy if the S-PE is at the Service
>   provider administrative boundary.
>
> SB> Do you need to comment on the VCCV implications?
>
>
I have a comment above, which is more accurate then what we had before.

I added :
 It should also be noted that because there are no S-PE TLVs describing 
the path beyond the S-PE that removed them, VCCV will only work as far 
as that S-PE .

> 7.4.1. PW Switching Point Sub-TLVs
> SB> The next sentence does not read right
> SB> Then it all gets very abrupt in the description that follows
> SB> I am not sure how many readers will figure it out
>
added:
 The S-PE TLV contains sub-TLVs that describe various characteristics of 
the   S-PE traversed.
Below are the definitions of PW Switching Point Sub-TLVs  defined in 
this document:

>   Below are details specific to PW Switching Point Sub-TLVs described
>   in this document:
>
>     - PW ID of last PW segment traversed. This is only applicable if
>       the last PW segment traversed used LDP FEC 128 to signal the PW.
>
i also fixed this formatting error.

>       This sub-TLV type contains a PW ID in the format of the PWID
>       described in [RFC4447]. This is just a 32 bit unsigned integer
>       number.
>
>     - PW Switching Point description string.
>
>       An optional description string of text up to 80 characters long.
>
>     - Local IP address of PW Switching Point.
>
>       The Local IP V4 or V6 address of the PW Switching Point. This is
>       an OPTIONAL Sub-TLV. In most cases this will be the local LDP
>       session IP address of the S-PE.
>
>     - Remote IP address of the last PW Switching Point traversed or of
>       the T-PE
>
>       The IP V4 or V6 address of the last PW Switching Point traversed
>       or of the T-PE. This is an OPTIONAL Sub-TLV. In most cases this
>       will be the remote IP address of the LDP session. This Sub-TLV
>       SHOULD only be included if there are no other S-PE TLV present
>       from other S-PEs, or if the remote ip address of the LDP session
>       does not correspond to the "Local IP address of PW Switching
>       Point" TLV value contained in the last S-PE TLV.
>
>     - The FEC of last PW segment traversed.
>
>       This is only applicable if the last PW segment traversed used LDP
>       FEC 129 to signal the PW.
>
>       The Attachment Identifier of the last PW segment traversed. This
>       is encoded in the following format:
>
>        0                   1                   2                   3
>        0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |   AGI Type    |    Length     |      Value                    |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       ~                    AGI  Value (contd.)                        ~
>       |                                                               |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |   AII Type    |    Length     |      Value                    |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       ~                   SAII  Value (contd.)                        ~
>       |                                                               |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       |   AII Type    |    Length     |      Value                    |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>       ~                   TAII Value (contd.)                         ~
>       |                                                               |
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>
>     - L2 PW address of PW Switching Point (recommended format).
>
>   This sub-TLV type contains a L2 PW address of PW Switching Point in
>   the format described in [RFC5003]. This includes the AII type field ,
>   and length, as well as the L2 PW address.
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
> 7.6. PW Loop Detection
>
>   A switching point PE SHOULD check the OPTIONAL PW switching Point
>   TLV, to verify if it's own IP address appears in it. If it's IP
> SB> Hopefully to determine or to check and not to verify?
> SB> Or maybe to verify that it is not in it?
>
fixed as follows:
A switching point PE SHOULD inspect the PW switching Point TLV, to
verify that it's  own IP address does not appears in it.
If the PE's IP address appears in a received PW switching Point TLV, the PE
SHOULD break the loop, and send a label release message with the following
error code:

>  address appears in a received PW switching Point TLV, the PE SHOULD
>   break the loop, and send a label release message with the following
>
> <snip>
>
> 8.2. Static MPLS PW and Dynamic L2TPv3 PW
>
>   When a statically configured MPLS PW is switched to a dynamic L2TPv3
>   PW, the static control plane should be considered identical to an
>   attachment circuit (AC) in the reference model of Figure 1. The
>   switching point PE SHOULD signal the proper PW status if it detects a
> SB> Again proper?
> SB> Same again in section 8.3
changed to appropriate
>   failure in sending or receiving packets over the static PW. Because
>   the PW is statically configured, the status communicated to the
>   dynamic L2TPv3 PW will be limited to local interface failures. In
>   this case, the S-PE PE behaves in a very similar manner to a T-PE,
>   assuming an active role.
>
> <snip>
>
> SB> In case I miss it - what happens about active/passive
> SB> negotiation in mixed L2TPv3/MPLS dynamic?
>
>
that mode does not exist, and is undefined.
We do not support dynamic interworking of the two protocols.


> <snip>
>
>
> 8.4.3. Session Tear Down
>
>   L2TPv3 uses a single message, CDN, to tear down a pseudowire. The CDN
>   message translates to a Label Withdraw message in LDP. Following are
>   two example exchanges of messages between LDP and L2TPv3. The first
>   is a case where an L2TPv3 T-PE initiates the termination of an MS-PW,
>   the second is a case where an MPLS T-PE initiates the termination of
>   an MS-PW.
>
>   PE 1 (L2TPv3)      PW Switching Node       PE3 (MPLS/LDP)
>
>   AC "Down"
>     L2TPv3 CDN --->
>                      LDP Label Withdraw  --->
>                                                 AC "Down"
>                                      <-- LDP Label Release
>
>   <--------------- MH PW Data Path Down ------------------>
>
> SB> Is there no ack back in L2TP to say that the CDN has
> SB> been actioned?
>
Carlos is the expert on this topic, but I believe that there is no 
support for the "ack" you mention in L2TPV3.

> <snip>
>
>
>   Other interface parameter mappings will either be defined in a future
>   version of this document,
>
> SB> Is "future version...." correct IETF speak when we are about
> SB> to go to RFC?
>
Yes I missed this.
I removed the text.
it is now :
"Other interface parameter mappings are unsupported when switching 
between LDP/MPLS and L2TPv3 PWs."


>
> 8.7. L2TPv3 and MPLS PW Data Plane
>
>   When switching between an MPLS and L2TP PW, packets are sent in their
>   entirety from one PW to the other, replacing the MPLS label stack
>   with the L2TPv3 and IP header or vice versa. There are some
>   situations where an additional amount of interworking must be
>   provided between the two data planes at the PW switching node.
>
> SB> You might want to note that these are described in the
> SB> following sections. Note that 8.7.1 really should be part
> SB> of the intro (8.7) which would fix that problem.
>
Sorry , I do not understand this comment.

> 8.7.1. PWE3 Payload Convergence and Sequencing
>
>   Section 5.4 of [RFC3985] discusses the purpose of the various shim
>   headers necessary for enabling a pseudowire over an IP or MPLS PSN.
>   For L2TPv3, the Payload Convergence and Sequencing function is
>   carried out via the Default L2-Specific Sublayer defined in [L2TPv3].
>   For MPLS, these two functions (together with PSN Convergence) are
>   carried out via the MPLS Control Word. Since these functions are
>   different between MPLS and L2TPv3, interworking between the two may
>   be necessary.
>
>   The L2TP L2-Specific Sublayer and MPLS Control Word are shim headers
>   which in some cases are not necessary to be present at all. For
>   example, an Ethernet PW with sequencing disabled will generally not
>   require an MPLS Control Word or L2TP Default L2-Specific Sublayer to
>   be present at all. In this case, Ethernet frames are simply sent from
>   one PW to the other without any modification beyond the MPLS and
>   L2TP/IP encapsulation and decapsulation.
>
>   The following section offers guidelines for how to interwork between
>   L2TP and MPLS for those cases where the Payload Convergence,
>   Sequencing, or PSN Convergence functions are necessary on one or both
>   sides of the switching node.
>
>
> 8.7.2. Mapping
>
the formatting had a bug in this title - i fixed it.

>   The MPLS Control Word consists of (from left to right):
> SB> Without a picture you can't say left to right, and even
> SB> with one you mean from low order bits to high order bits.
> SB> However it might be better to quote bit numbers in
> SB> the text below.
> SB> Maybe you need both headers in the draft to make it clear?
>
I'm going to add the picture from rfc3985.

>        -i. These bits are always zero in MPLS are not necessary to be
>            mapped to L2TP.
>
> <snip>
>
>
> 9.3. Signaling OAM Capabilities for Switched Pseudowires
>
>   Like in SS-PW, MS-PW VCCV capabilities are signaled using the VCCV
> SB> As in?
>
Similarly to SS-PW

> <snip>
>
>
> 9.5.1. VCCV Echo Message Processing
>
>   For example, in Figure 3, T-PE1 has the FEC128 of the segment, PW1,
>   but it does not readily have the information required to compose the
>   FEC128 of the following segment, PW3, if a VCCV echo request to be
>   sent to T-PE2. This can be achieved by the methods described in the
>   following subsections.
>
> SB> the naming here sort of matches fig 3, but not quite.
>
fixed.

> <snip>
>
>
> 9.5.2.5. MS-PW Path Trace
>
> SB> This looks the same as MS-PW Path Verification
> SB> What is the difference?
>
This is to accommodate existing deployments , and is optional. Otherwise 
the result is the same, there is no functional difference.
MS-PW Path Verification takes control plane information received at PW 
signaling time  and verifies that the dataplane agrees.
Path trace ask the control plane in turn , at each ms-pw hop for the 
information of the next hop and does the same.

> <snip>
>
> 10. Mapping Switched Pseudowire Status
>
>   In the PW switching with attachment circuits case (Figure 2), PW
>   status messages indicating PW or attachment circuit faults MUST be
>   mapped to fault indications or OAM messages on the connecting AC as
>   defined in [PW-MSG-MAP].
>
>   In the PW control plane switching case (Figure 3), there is no
>   attachment circuit at the S-PE, but the two PWs are connected
>   together.  Similarly, the status of the PWs are forwarded unchanged
>   from one PW to the other by the control plane switching function.
>   However, it may sometimes be necessary to communicate fault status of
>   one of the locally attached SS-PW at a S-PE. For LDP this can be
>   accomplished by sending an LDP notification message containing the PW
>   status TLV, as well as an OPTIONAL PW switching point TLV as follows:
>
>    0                   1                   2                   3
>    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |0|   Notification   (0x0001)   |      Message Length           |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |                           Message ID                          |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |0|1| Status (0x0300)           |      Length                   |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |0|1|                 Status Code=0x00000028                    |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |                     Message ID=0                              |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |      Message Type=0           |      PW Status TLV            |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |                         PW Status TLV                         |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |         PW Status TLV         |            PWId FEC           |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |                                                               |
>   |                                                               |
>   |                 PWId FEC or Generalized ID FEC                |
>   |                                                               |
>   |                                                               |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |1|0|     PW sw TLV  (0x096D)   |     PW sw TLV  Length         |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   |     Type      |    Length     |    Variable Length Value      |
>   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>
>   Only one S-PE TLV can be present in this message. This message is
>
> SB> This is a general comment, but I think that it would
> SB> be a good idea to allocate figure numbers to the TLV and
> SB> protocol exchanges.
> SB> This not only allows the reader to point to these
> SB> components more easily, but we might want to point to
> SB> in another of our documents.
>
This is not a standard stile , if you take, for example , the IDR WG , 
they almost never use numbers , and the diagrams are very difficult to read.

I did not assign a figure number to this picture because I do not want 
it quoted elsewhere , as it is a very specific example, and future 
extensions can change it.
the more generic figures have  numbers assigned to them.

> <snip>
>
>
>   The merging of the received LDP status and the local status for the
>   PW segments at an S-PE can be summarized as follows:
>
>        -i. When the local status for both PW segments is UP, the S-PE
> SB> We kind of need a better name than "both PW segments"

Can you suggest one ?

> <snip>
>
> SB> You really ought to five the figure a number and point to it
> SB> for the table below.
>
>        -i. PW2 Transmit direction fault
>       -ii. PW1 Transmit direction fault
>      -iii. PW2 Receive direction fault
>       -iv. PW1 Receive direction fault
>
> <snip>
>
>
this list has no corresponding figure.
What figure do you wan here ?

>
> 12. Security Considerations
>
>   This document specifies the LDP and L2TPv3 extensions that are needed
> SB> and VCCV extensions
fixed.
>   for setting up and maintaining pseudowires. The purpose of setting up
>   pseudowires is to enable layer 2 frames to be encapsulated and
>   transmitted from one end of a pseudowire to the other. Therefore we
>   treat the security considerations for both the data plane and the
> SB> address the security?
>   control plane.
>
we do not really address the security , as we offer no solution in some 
cases.
I could say "discuss" ?

> <snip>
>
> 12.2. Control Protocol Security
>
> <snip>
>
>   A Pseudowire connects two attachment circuits. It is important to
>   make sure that LDP connections are not arbitrarily accepted from
>   anywhere, or else a local attachment circuit might get connected to
>   an arbitrary remote attachment circuit. Therefore an incoming session
>   request MUST NOT be accepted unless its IP source address is known to
>   be the source of an "eligible" peer. The set of eligible peers could
>   be pre-configured (either as a list of IP addresses, or as a list of
>   address/mask combinations), or it could be discovered dynamically via
>   an auto-discovery protocol which is itself trusted. (Obviously if the
>   auto-discovery protocol were not trusted, the set of "eligible peers"
>   it produces could not be trusted.)
> SB> You might want to rephase the last sentence, because it
> SB> treats the reader like an idiot :)
>
??? that was certainly not the intention.
i'll reword it as follows:
Obviously -> Note that

> <snip>
>
>   For a greater degree of security, the LDP MD5 authentication key
>   option, as described in section 2.9 of RFC 3036, or the Control
>   Message Authentication option of [L2TPv3] MAY be used.
>
> SB> I am worried that sec review will complain about MD5
> SB> do we have to say MD5 rather than something just saying
> SB> use the flavor of the month crypto authentication.
>
Ok, first the quote is obsolete , i'll update it to rfc5036.
then i removed the MD5 part. We really can only do what LDP supports in 
this case.

> <snip>
>
> This provides
>   integrity and authentication for the control messages, and eliminates
>   the possibility of source address spoofing.  Use of the message
>   authentication option does not provide privacy, but privacy of
>   control messages are not usually considered to be highly urgent.
> SB> urgent means "do now" I think you mean important
>
yes.
Fixed.


> <snip>
>
>
> 13. IANA Considerations
>
> 13.1. L2TPv3 AVP
>
>   This document uses a ne L2TP parameter, IANA already maintains a
>   registry of name "Control Message Attribute Value Pair" defined by
>   [RFC3438]. The following new values are required:
> SB> only one value
>
fixed.

>   TBA-L2TP-AVP-1 - PW Switching Point AVP
>
> 13.2. LDP TLV TYPE
>
>   This document uses several new LDP TLV types, IANA already maintains
> SB> But you only ask for one new TLV below
>   A registry of name "TLV TYPE NAME SPACE" defined by RFC3036. The
>   following value is suggested for assignment:
>
>      TLV type  Description
>       0x096D   Pseudowire Switching TLV
>
fixed.
let's get this assigned ASAP !

>
>
> 13.3. LDP Status Codes
>
>   This document uses several new LDP status codes, IANA already
> SB> But you only ask for one new status code below
>   maintains a registry of name "STATUS CODE NAME SPACE" defined by
>   RFC3036. The following value is suggested for assignment:
>
>      Assignment E Description
>      0x0000003A 0 "PW Loop Detected"
>

>
> 13.4. L2TPv3 Result Codes
>
>   This document uses several new L2TPv3 status codes, IANA already
> SB> ... and I only see one request below
clearly I cut and pasted this text ;-)

>   maintains a registry of name "L2TPv3 Result Codes" defined by
>   RFCxxxx. The following value is suggested for assignment:
> SB> ... you need the RFC number
>
it is unclear what rfc defines these , so i'll remove the mention of an RFC.

>      Assignment  Description
>          17      "sequencing not supported"
>
>
> 13.5. New IANA Registries
>
>   IANA needs to set up a registry of "PW Switching Point TLV Type".
>   These are 8-bit values. Types value 1 through 3 are defined in this
>   document. Type values 4 through 64 are to be assigned by IANA using
> SB> you define 1 through 6 below
>
indeed, fixed.

> <snip>
>  Type  Length   Description
>
>   0x01     4     PW ID of last PW segment traversed
>   0x02  variable PW Switching Point description string
>   0x03    4/16   Local IP address of PW Switching Point
>   0x04    4/16   Remote IP address of last PW Switching Point traversed
>                  or of the T-PE
>   0x05  variable AI of last PW segment traversed
>   0x06     10    L2 PW address of PW Switching Point
>
>
> <end>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3



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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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Support,

Simon

2009/4/3 Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>

> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>
> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>
> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April
> so that the chairs can judge consensus.
>
> Thanks
>
> Stewart
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>

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<div>Support,</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Simon<br><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/4/3 Stewart Bryant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:stbryant@cisco.com">stbryant@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">The authors of draft-martini-pwe=
3-iccp-01.txt<br><br><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3=
-iccp-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3=
-iccp-01.txt</a><br>
<br>have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.<br><br>Please can y=
ou send comments to the list by 20th April<br>so that the chairs can judge =
consensus.<br><br>Thanks<br><br>Stewart<br>________________________________=
_______________<br>
pwe3 mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pwe=
3@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3</a><br></blockqu=
ote>
</div><br>

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From frederic.jounay@orange-ftgroup.com  Tue Apr  7 07:14:58 2009
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Subject: [PWE3] MPLS2009 - CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS
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MPLS 2009 INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
http://www.mpls2009.com=20
OCTOBER 25 - 28, 2009, WASHINGTON, DC=20
On line Submissions:
http://www.isocore.com/mpls2009/call_for_papers/cfp.htm=20
Deadline for submission of presentation proposals: May 8, 2009=20

CALL FOR PRESENTATION
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=20

The MPLS 2009 International Conference, the 12th Annual International
Conference on MPLS and Related Technologies, will be held October 25 -
28, 2009, in Washington, DC. The Technical Program Committee is
soliciting an abstract summarizing a proposed presentation representing
original/unpublished work covering cutting-edge topics.=20

Presentations addressing new technologies and operational experience are
being solicited from network equipment vendors, service/transport
providers, the research community, government agencies, and enterprise
users.=20

Some or all of these topics have been of interest to the PWE3 WG in the
past, and I wanted to indicate that the call for presentation abstracts
is now open. If you are interested in further information or want to
submit a presentation abstract, please see the following URL:

http://www.isocore.com/mpls2009/call_for_papers/cfp.htm=20

In particular and relevant to PWE3, this year's conference will include,
but will not be limited to the following topics

A. Architectures and Enablers=20
MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP)=20
Multicast in MPLS Pseudowires and VPLS=20
Single and Multi-hop Pseudowire placement, setup, and management=20

B. Services and Applications=20
MPLS Support for Ethernet Services and VPLS=20
Next Generation Mulicast VPN in Enterprise Networks=20
Testing: MPLS test tools and certification experience=20

C. Implementation (ISP/User) Experience and Case Studies=20
Deploying, interworking, and operating L2 and L3=20
MPLS VPN deployment experience: scaling, performance, and Security=20

D. OAM, Resiliency and Performance=20
OAM and network management for packet transport networks=20
High Availability (Graceful Restart, Non-Stop Routing, In-Service
Software Upgrades, etc)=20
Protection, restoration, and reliability for MPLS and Pseudowires=20
Improved Load Balancing for MPLS and Pseudowires=20
Security features for MPLS and Pseudowires=20
Congestion Notification and processing for MPLS and Pseudowires=20

E. Wireless and Mobility=20
MPLS applications for LTE/WiMAX=20
Wireless and Mobility Backhauling=20
MPLS applications in the access network=20


Best Regards,

Frederic

_______________________________________________
tpc-mpls2009-L mailing list
tpc-mpls2009-L@isocore.com
http://isocore.com/mailman/listinfo/tpc-mpls2009-l_isocore.com





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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Andy,

Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine for 
virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?

Thanks,
Albert





Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com> 
sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org
2009-04-01 01:13

to
'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org, "'Malis, Andrew G. 
(Andy)'" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>
cc

topic
[PWE3] comments on packet pw






Hi Stewart and Andy,
 
I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!
I also have some comments on the draft:
 
1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state how to 
use flow label and S/N for packet PW.
2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual interfaces. 
However, each protocol interface may have its own link status protocol 
running, the draft should state the procedures to determine interface 
status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its link protocol 
when using Packet PW
3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs, the 
draft should state link operational procedures (for client networks) over 
a packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE metrics, etc.
4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency from 
server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them and 
considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client networks.
 
Cheers,
Lucy_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3






"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com> 
2009-04-04 23:39


jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn

stbryant@cisco.com, pwe3@ietf.org

Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?






Jiang,

Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
this as simple as possible.

Thanks,
Andy

2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>:
>
> Sir,
>
> Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level Data
> Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have 
more
> encapsulation overhead)
>
> Thank you!


--=_alternative 0040B39F48257592_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Andy,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain
any kind of state machine for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Albert</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=26%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Lucy Yong &lt;lucyyong@huawei.com&gt;</b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">sender: &nbsp;pwe3-bounces@ietf.org</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">2009-04-01 01:13</font>
<td width=73%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">to</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">'Stewart Bryant' &lt;stbryant@cisco.com&gt;,
pwe3@ietf.org, &quot;'Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)'&quot; &lt;andrew.g.malis@verizon.com&gt;</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">topic</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[PWE3] comments on packet pw</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">Hi Stewart and Andy,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">I support this draft to become WG draft.
Congratulation!!</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">I also have some comments on the draft:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">1)</font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">
&nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=3 face="Tahoma">Since Packet PW requires
using CW, it is necessary to state how to use flow label and S/N for packet
PW.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">2)</font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">
&nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=3 face="Tahoma">It is good to have the
PW status mapped to virtual interfaces. However, <b>each protocol interface
may have its own link status protocol</b> running, the draft should state
the procedures to determine interface status, or require each protocol
interface to turn off its link protocol when using Packet PW</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">3)</font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">
&nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=3 face="Tahoma">Since Packet PW acts as
a data link between two clients LSRs, the draft should state link operational
procedures (for client networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine
admin cost, TE metrics, etc.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">4)</font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">
&nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=3 face="Tahoma">I assume that a Packet
PW can obtain transport resiliency from server MPLS network, it would be
nice for the draft to state them and considers that the consequence may
change admin cost in client networks.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">Cheers,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Tahoma">Lucy</font><font size=2><tt>_______________________________________________<br>
pwe3 mailing list<br>
pwe3@ietf.org<br>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=26%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Andrew G. Malis&quot;
&lt;amalis@gmail.com&gt;</b> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">2009-04-04 23:39</font>
<td width=73%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">stbryant@cisco.com, pwe3@ietf.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt
to WG draft?</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Jiang,<br>
<br>
Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require<br>
running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep<br>
this as simple as possible.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Andy<br>
<br>
2009/4/3 &nbsp;&lt;jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn&gt;:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sir,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level
Data<br>
&gt; Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks<br>
&gt; be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have
more<br>
&gt; encapsulation overhead)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you!<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
--=_alternative 0040B39F48257592_=--


From satoru@ft.solteria.net  Wed Apr  8 06:37:17 2009
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From: Satoru Matsushima <satoru@ft.solteria.net>
To: pwe3 <pwe3@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <C5FA82CA.139E9%tom.nadeau@bt.com>
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Cc: davarish@yahoo.com, Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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On 2009/04/03, at 3:57, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote:

>
>    There are no claims from BT.
>
>    --Tom
>

Softbank has no patent claim.


--
Satoru Matsushima



>
>
> On 4/2/09 2:52 PM, "Stewart Bryant" <stbryant@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Please will the authors clarify the IPR position.
>>
>> Stewart
>>
>> Shahram Davari wrote:
>>> Hi Stewart
>>>
>>> Could you please clarify whether there is any patent claim related  
>>> to this
>>> draft or not?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Shahram
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On  
>>> Behalf Of
>>> Stewart Bryant
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:09 PM
>>> To: pwe3
>>> Subject: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
>>>
>>> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>>>
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>>>
>>> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>>>
>>> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April so that the
>>> chairs can judge consensus.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Stewart
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pwe3 mailing list
>>> pwe3@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pwe3 mailing list
>>> pwe3@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pwe3 mailing list
>> pwe3@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
> -- 
> Principal Architect - 21CN Networks
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3


From amalis@gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 06:41:08 2009
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From: "Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:41:59 -0400
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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--0015175cdef29ce90804670b4c9c
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Jiang,
I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on mapping
between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting (without being
implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the all of the details
covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.

Thanks,
Andy

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn> wrote:

>
> Andy,
>
> Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine for
> virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?
>
> Thanks,
> Albert
>
>
>
>
>  *Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com>*
> sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org
>
> 2009-04-01 01:13
>   to
> 'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org, "'Malis, Andrew G.
> (Andy)'" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>  cc
>   topic
> [PWE3] comments on packet pw
>
>
>
>
> Hi Stewart and Andy,
>
> I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!
> I also have some comments on the draft:
>
> 1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state how to
> use flow label and S/N for packet PW.
> 2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual interfaces.
> However, *each protocol interface may have its own link status protocol*running, the draft should state the procedures to determine interface
> status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its link protocol
> when using Packet PW
> 3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs, the
> draft should state link operational procedures (for client networks) over a
> packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE metrics, etc.
> 4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency from
> server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them and
> considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client networks.
>
> Cheers,
> Lucy_______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
>
>
>
>
>  *"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com>*
>
> 2009-04-04 23:39
>   jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
>  stbryant@cisco.com, pwe3@ietf.org
>  Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>
>
>
>
> Jiang,
>
> Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
> running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
> this as simple as possible.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>
> 2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>:
> >
> > Sir,
> >
> > Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level Data
> > Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> > be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have more
> > encapsulation overhead)
> >
> > Thank you!
>
>

--0015175cdef29ce90804670b4c9c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jiang,<div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think so, but we should look more clo=
sely at the details on mapping between the virtual interface state and PW s=
tatus reporting (without being implementation-dependent) to make sure we&#3=
9;ve got the all of the details covered. Lucy&#39;s point 3 is a good one a=
s well.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Andy</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn">jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Andy,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Is there any need for Packet-PW to=
 maintain
any kind of state machine for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong menti=
oned?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif">Albert</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><table width=3D"100%">
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td width=3D"26%"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><b>Lucy Yong &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">lucyyong@huawei.com</=
a>&gt;</b>
</font>
<br><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">sender: =A0<a href=3D"mailto:pwe3-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pwe3-bounces@ietf.org</a></font>
<p><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">2009-04-01 01:13</font>
</p></td><td width=3D"73%">
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">to</font></div>
</td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">&#39;Stewart Bryant&#39; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:stbryant@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">stbryant@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pwe3@ietf.org</a>, &quot=
;&#39;Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)&#39;&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.g.mal=
is@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">andrew.g.malis@verizon.com</a>&gt;</font>
</td></tr><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">cc</font></div>
</td><td>
</td></tr><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">topic</font></div=
>
</td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">[PWE3] comments on packet pw<=
/font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<table>
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
</td><td></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">Hi Stewart and Andy,</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">=A0</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">I support this draft to become WG draf=
t.
Congratulation!!</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">I also have some comments on the draft=
:</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">=A0</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">1)</font><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Time=
s New Roman">
=A0 =A0 </font><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">Since Packet PW requires
using CW, it is necessary to state how to use flow label and S/N for packet
PW.</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">2)</font><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Time=
s New Roman">
=A0 =A0 </font><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">It is good to have the
PW status mapped to virtual interfaces. However, <b>each protocol interface
may have its own link status protocol</b> running, the draft should state
the procedures to determine interface status, or require each protocol
interface to turn off its link protocol when using Packet PW</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">3)</font><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Time=
s New Roman">
=A0 =A0 </font><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">Since Packet PW acts as
a data link between two clients LSRs, the draft should state link operation=
al
procedures (for client networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine
admin cost, TE metrics, etc.</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">4)</font><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Time=
s New Roman">
=A0 =A0 </font><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">I assume that a Packet
PW can obtain transport resiliency from server MPLS network, it would be
nice for the draft to state them and considers that the consequence may
change admin cost in client networks.</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">=A0</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">Cheers,</font>
<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma">Lucy</font><font size=3D"2"><tt>______=
_________________________________________<div class=3D"im"><br>
pwe3 mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pwe3@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3</a><br>
</div></tt></font>
<br><font size=3D"2" face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><table width=3D"100%">
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td width=3D"26%"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><b>&quot;Andrew G. M=
alis&quot;
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:amalis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">amalis@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</b> </font>
<p><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">2009-04-04 23:39</font>
</p></td><td width=3D"73%">
<table width=3D"100%">
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"></div>
</td><td><div class=3D"im"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><a href=3D"=
mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blank">jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn=
</a></font>
</div></td></tr><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"></div>
</td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:stbryant@ci=
sco.com" target=3D"_blank">stbryant@cisco.com</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:pwe3@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">pwe3@ietf.org</a></font><div class=3D"im">
</div></td></tr><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
<div align=3D"right"></div>
</td><td><font size=3D"1" face=3D"sans-serif">Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-=
packet-pw-00.txt
to WG draft?</font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<table>
<tbody><tr valign=3D"top">
<td>
</td><td></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<br><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<br><font size=3D"2"><tt>Jiang,<br>
<br>
Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require<br>
running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep<br>
this as simple as possible.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Andy<br>
<br>
2009/4/3 =A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn" target=3D"_blan=
k">jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sir,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level
Data<br>
&gt; Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks<br>
&gt; be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have
more<br>
&gt; encapsulation overhead)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you!<br>
</tt></font>
<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--0015175cdef29ce90804670b4c9c--

From Mustapha.Aissaoui@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Apr  8 07:20:14 2009
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Thread-Topic: [PWE3] draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG last call
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From: "AISSAOUI Mustapha" <Mustapha.Aissaoui@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "BOCCI Matthew" <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, <pwe3@ietf.org>
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Dear all,
as requested by Matthew, I reviewed this draft and I have compiled my
comments below.
=20
Regards,
Mustapha.
---------------------------------------------------
Comments on draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03

1. Section 3.1, last paragraph states:

"

When the downstream PE (D-PE) does not receive BFD control messages from
its upstream peer PE (U-PE) during a certain number of transmission
intervals (a number provisioned by the operator as Detect Mult), D-PE
declares that the PW in its receive direction is down. In other words,
D-PE enters the "forward defect" state for this PW. After this
calculated Detection Time, D-PE declares the session Down, and signals
this to the remote end via the State (Sta) with Diagnostic code 1
(Control Detection Time Expired). In turn, U-PE declares the PW is down
in its transmit direction setting the State to Down, and it using
Diagnostic code 3 (Neighbor signaled session down) in its control
messages to D-PE. U-PE enters the "reverse defect" state for this PW. If
needed, how it further processes this error condition, and conveys this
status to the attachment circuits is out of the scope of this
specification, and is instead defined in [I-D.ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map].=20

"

MA> I do not believe that BFD as defined today supports this mode of
operation. This mode requires that each PE be able to declare the PW to
be down in the receive direction independently based on not receiving a
number of BFD control messages during a number of time intervals. This
mode would be similar to the way ATM and Ethernet CC work.=20

However, BFD requires that the sender of the messages declares the state
of the PW to be down if replies to its own BFD messages were not
received for a number of time intervals.=20

Given that, the sender cannot tell which direction of the PW is down, it
must enter the PW receive defect state as explained in
draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-09.txt. However, the receiver of the
messages can send a BFD status change asynchronously and in this case
the sender can be sure the defect is in the forward direction, which
means it must enter the PW trasmit defect state.

I believe Appendix B of draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-09.txt must also be
corrected as it states:

"

Furthermore, the detection of a fault could occur at different points in
the network and there are several ways the observing PE determines a
fault exists:=20

a. egress or ingress PE detection of failure (e.g. BFD)=20

....

"

2. Section 3.2 - BFD Encapsulation

MA> We need to document how the reply to the BFD packet is encapsulated.
The following reply modes of "2- Reply via an IPv4/IPv6 UDP packet", "3
- Reply via an IPv4/IPv6 UDP packet with Router Alert", and "4 - Reply
via application level control channel" must be documented for the UDP/IP
encapsulation. The PW-ACH necapsulation can only support reply mode 4
since it cannot be routed. I believe the relevant text for this is
covered in draft-ietf-bfd-mpls-07.txt.=20

3. Section 3.3, item (3) reads:

"

4. Pseudowires that do not use a CW or L2SS using the PW Associated
Channel Header MUST NOT use the BFD CV Types 0x10 or 0x20 (i.e., PW-ACH
encapsulation of BFD, without IP/UDP headers).=20

A. PWs that use a PW-ACH include CC Type 1 (for both MPLS and L2TPv3 as
defined in Sections 5.1.1 and 6.1 of [RFC5085]), and MPLS CC Types 2 and
3 when using a Control Word (as specified in Sections 5.1.2 and 5.1.3 of
[RFC5085]). This restriction stems from the fact that the PW-ACH
contains a Protocol Identification (PID) field, the Channel Type.=20

B. PWs that do not use a PW-ACH can use the VCCV BFD encapsulation with
IP/UDP headers, including its concurrent use along with another CV Type
that uses an encapsulation with IP headers (e.g., ICMP Ping or LSP
Ping). For example, as specified in Section 7 of [RFC4385], a Pseudowire
operating without CW MUST NOT use the PW-ACH.=20

"

MA> This paragraph is trying to convey too many things and is confusing.
I propose we split it into the case of PW with ACH and PW with no ACH.
Here is a proposal which I believe covers all the intended points:

"

4. A PW that uses the PW-ACH must signal CC Type 1 only in the VCCV
parameter included in the interface parameter field of the PW ID FEC TLV
or the sub-TLV interface parameter of the Generalized PW ID FEC TLV as
described in [RFC 5085].=20

5. A PW that does not use a PW-ACH must signal CC Types 2 and/or 3 in
the VCCV parameter included in the interface parameter field of the PW
ID FEC TLV or the sub-TLV interface parameter of the Generalized PW ID
FEC TLV as described in [RFC 5085]. For example, this can be a PW which
is configured not to use the CW on the user packets. As specified in
Section 7 of [RFC4385], this PW MUST NOT use the PW-ACH.=20

6. A PW that does not use the PW-ACH MUST NOT use the BFD CV Types 0x10
or 0x20 (i.e., PW-ACH encapsulation of BFD, without IP/UDP headers).
This restriction stems from the fact that the PW-ACH contains a Protocol
Identification (PID) field, the Channel Type, which is the only way to
identify BFD messages with these CV types.

7. A PW can use the VCCV BFD encapsulation with IP/UDP headers,
including its concurrent use along with another CV type that uses an
encapsulation with IP headers (e.g., ICMP Ping or LSP Ping), regardless
if it is configured to use PW-ACH or not.

"

5. Section 3.3, item (4)

"

4. Only a single BFD CV Type can be selected and used. All BFD CV Types
are mutually exclusive with the rest, after selecting a BFD CV Type, a
node MUST NOT use any of the other three BFD CV Types.=20

"

MA> It must be stated that in order to change the negotiation and
selection of the BFD CV types, the PW must be torn down and re-signaled.


---------------------------------------------------


________________________________

	From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of BOCCI Matthew
	Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:09 AM
	To: pwe3@ietf.org
	Subject: [PWE3] draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG last call
=09
=09

	This is the start of working group last call on
draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt=20

	This draft can be found at:=20

=09
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt> =20

	The last call will close on Monday 6th April 2009.=20

	Please read the document and provide feedback to the PWE3 list.=20

	Many thanks to the following, who have also kindly agreed to
review the draft and provide comments to the list:=20
	Ben Niven-Jenkins=20
	Mustapha Aissaoui=20
	Luca Martini=20
	Yaakov Stein=20

	Best regards=20

	Matthew=20




------_=_NextPart_001_01C9B855.43037BB7
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG last call</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3492" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Dear all,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>as requested by Matthew, I&nbsp;reviewed this draft and I have=20
compiled&nbsp;my&nbsp;comments below.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Mustapha.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>---------------------------------------------------</FONT></SPAN=
></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>
<P>Comments </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>on=20
draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03</P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
<P>1. Section 3.1, last paragraph states:</P>
<P>"</P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<P>When the downstream PE (D-PE) does not receive BFD control messages =
from its=20
upstream peer PE (U-PE) during a certain number of transmission =
intervals (a=20
number provisioned by the operator as Detect Mult), D-PE declares that =
the PW in=20
its receive direction is down. In other words, D-PE enters the "forward =
defect"=20
state for this PW. After this calculated Detection Time, D-PE declares =
the=20
session Down, and signals this to the remote end via the State (Sta) =
with=20
Diagnostic code 1 (Control Detection Time Expired). In turn, U-PE =
declares the=20
PW is down in its transmit direction setting the State to Down, and it =
using=20
Diagnostic code 3 (Neighbor signaled session down) in its control =
messages to=20
D-PE. U-PE enters the "reverse defect" state for this PW. If needed, how =
it=20
further processes this error condition, and conveys this status to the=20
attachment circuits is out of the scope of this specification, and is =
instead=20
defined in [I-D.ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map]. </P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
<P>"</P>
<P>MA&gt; I do not believe that BFD as defined today supports this mode =
of=20
operation. This mode requires that each PE be able to declare the PW to =
be down=20
in the receive direction independently based on not receiving a number =
of BFD=20
control messages during a number of time intervals. This mode would be =
similar=20
to the way ATM and Ethernet CC work. </P>
<P>However, BFD requires that the sender of the messages declares the =
state of=20
the PW to be down if replies to its own BFD messages were not received =
for a=20
number of time intervals. </P>
<P>Given that, the sender cannot tell which direction of the PW is down, =
it must=20
enter the PW receive defect state as explained in=20
draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-09.txt. However, the receiver of the =
messages can=20
send a BFD status change asynchronously and in this case the sender can =
be sure=20
the defect is in the forward direction, which means it must enter the PW =
trasmit=20
defect state.</P>
<P>I believe Appendix B of draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-09.txt must also =
be=20
corrected as it states:</P>
<P>"</P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<P>Furthermore, the detection of a fault could occur at different points =
in the=20
network and there are several ways the observing PE determines a fault =
exists:=20
</P>
<P>a. egress or ingress PE detection of failure (e.g. BFD) </P>
<P>&#8230;.</P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
<P>"</P>
<P>2. Section 3.2 - BFD Encapsulation</P>
<P>MA&gt; We need to document how the reply to the BFD packet is =
encapsulated.=20
The following reply modes of "</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>2-=20
Reply via an IPv4/IPv6 UDP packet", "3 - Reply via an IPv4/IPv6 UDP =
packet with=20
Router Alert", and "4 - Reply via application level control =
channel</FONT>" must=20
be documented<SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009> for the UDP/IP=20
encapsulation</SPAN>.<SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009> The PW-ACH =
necapsulation=20
can only support reply mode 4 since it cannot be routed.</SPAN>&nbsp;I =
believe=20
the&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009>relevant </SPAN>text for this =
is covered=20
in draft-ietf-bfd-mpls-07.txt. </P>
<P>3. Section 3.3, item (3) reads:</P>
<P>"</P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<P>4. Pseudowires that do not use a CW or L2SS using the PW Associated =
Channel=20
Header MUST NOT use the BFD CV Types 0x10 or 0x20 (i.e., PW-ACH =
encapsulation of=20
BFD, without IP/UDP headers). </P>
<P>A. PWs that use a PW-ACH include CC Type 1 (for both MPLS and L2TPv3 =
as=20
defined in Sections 5.1.1 and 6.1 of [RFC5085]), and MPLS CC Types 2 and =
3 when=20
using a Control Word (as specified in Sections 5.1.2 and 5.1.3 of =
[RFC5085]).=20
This restriction stems from the fact that the PW-ACH contains a Protocol =

Identification (PID) field, the Channel Type. </P>
<P>B. PWs that do not use a PW-ACH can use the VCCV BFD encapsulation =
with=20
IP/UDP headers, including its concurrent use along with another CV Type =
that=20
uses an encapsulation with IP headers (e.g., ICMP Ping or LSP Ping). For =

example, as specified in Section 7 of [RFC4385], a Pseudowire operating =
without=20
CW MUST NOT use the PW-ACH. </P></FONT>
<P>"</P>
<P>MA&gt; This paragraph is trying to convey too many things and is =
confusing. I=20
propose we split it into the case of PW with ACH and PW with no ACH. =
Here is a=20
proposal which I believe covers all the intended points:</P>
<P>"</P>
<P>4. <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3>A PW that uses the =
PW-ACH must=20
signal CC Type 1 only in the VCCV parameter included in the interface =
parameter=20
field of the PW ID FEC TLV or the sub-TLV interface parameter of the =
Generalized=20
PW ID FEC TLV as described in [RFC 5085]. </FONT></P>
<P>5. A PW that does not use a PW-ACH must signal CC Types 2 and/or 3 in =
the=20
VCCV parameter included in the interface parameter field of the PW ID =
FEC TLV or=20
the sub-TLV interface parameter of the Generalized PW ID FEC TLV as =
described in=20
[RFC 5085]. For example, this can be a PW which is configured not to use =
the CW=20
on the user packets. As specified in Section 7 of [RFC4385], this PW =
MUST NOT=20
use the PW-ACH. </P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
<P>6. A </FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3>PW that =
does not use=20
the PW-ACH MUST NOT use the BFD CV Types 0x10 or 0x20 (i.e., PW-ACH=20
encapsulation of BFD, without IP/UDP headers). This restriction stems =
from the=20
fact that the PW-ACH contains a Protocol Identification (PID) field, the =
Channel=20
Type, which is the only way to identify BFD messages with these CV=20
types.</FONT></P>
<P>7. A PW can use the VCCV BFD encapsulation with IP/UDP headers, =
including its=20
concurrent use along with another CV type that uses an encapsulation =
with IP=20
headers (e.g., ICMP Ping or LSP Ping), regardless if it is configured to =
use=20
PW-ACH or not.</P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
<P>"</P>
<P>5. Section 3.3, item (4)</P>
<P>"</P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<P>4. Only a single BFD CV Type can be selected and used. All BFD CV =
Types are=20
mutually exclusive with the rest, after selecting a BFD CV Type, a node =
MUST NOT=20
use any of the other three BFD CV Types. </P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
<P>"</P>
<P>MA&gt; It must be stated that in order to change the negotiation and=20
selection of the BFD CV types, the PW must be torn down and re-signaled. =

</P></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2>---------------------------------------------------<SPAN=20
class=3D726571614-08042009></SPAN></FONT></FONT><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> pwe3-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>BOCCI=20
  Matthew<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 09, 2009 11:09 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  pwe3@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [PWE3] =
draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG=20
  last call<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
  <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>This is the start of working =
group last=20
  call on draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>This draft can be found =
at:</FONT> </P>
  <P><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.t=
xt"><U><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff=20
  =
size=3D2>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.=
txt</FONT></U></A>=20
  </P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>The last call will close on =
Monday 6th=20
  April 2009.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Please read the document and =
provide=20
  feedback to the PWE3 list.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Many thanks to the following, =
who have also=20
  kindly agreed to review the draft and provide comments to the =
list:</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Ben Niven-Jenkins</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Mustapha Aissaoui</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Luca Martini</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
  size=3D2>Yaakov Stein</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Best regards</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Matthew</FONT>=20
</P><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C9B855.43037BB7--

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Cc: pwe3@ietf.org, stbryant@cisco.com
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Hi Andy and XiaoWei,

 

Since the purpose of packet-PW is to create a virtual physical interface for
two connected client LSRs and allow multiple client protocols run over it.
Assume the client LSP is IP router, it runs OSPF or IS-IS. To support the
routing protocol properly running, IP interface is configured over a
packet-PW. Hello protocol is normally activated over IP interface. However,
if we want to use packet-PW state as IP interface state, we need to turn off
hello protocol. Is that right? That is my second point in previous e-mail.

 

Thanks,

Lucy

 

  _____  

From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Andrew G. Malis
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:42 AM
To: jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
Cc: pwe3@ietf.org; stbryant@cisco.com
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?

 

Jiang,

 

I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on mapping
between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting (without being
implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the all of the details
covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.

 

Thanks,

Andy

 

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn> wrote:


Andy, 

Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine for
virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned? 

Thanks, 
Albert 






Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com> 
sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org 

2009-04-01 01:13 


to

'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org, "'Malis, Andrew G.
(Andy)'" <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com> 


cc

 


topic

[PWE3] comments on packet pw

 


 

 




Hi Stewart and Andy, 
  
I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!! 
I also have some comments on the draft: 
  
1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state how to
use flow label and S/N for packet PW. 
2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual interfaces.
However, each protocol interface may have its own link status protocol
running, the draft should state the procedures to determine interface
status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its link protocol
when using Packet PW 
3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs, the
draft should state link operational procedures (for client networks) over a
packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE metrics, etc. 
4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency from server
MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them and considers
that the consequence may change admin cost in client networks. 
  
Cheers, 
Lucy_______________________________________________


pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3








"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com> 

2009-04-04 23:39 


 

jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn 


 

stbryant@cisco.com, pwe3@ietf.org


 

Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?

 


 

 

 


Jiang,

Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
this as simple as possible.

Thanks,
Andy

2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>:
>
> Sir,
>
> Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level Data
> Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have more
> encapsulation overhead)
>
> Thank you!

 


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<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'>Hi Andy and XiaoWei,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'>Since the purpose of packet-PW is to
create a virtual physical interface for two connected client LSRs and allow
multiple client protocols run over it. Assume the client LSP is IP router, it runs
OSPF or IS-IS. To support the routing protocol properly running, IP interface
is configured over a packet-PW. Hello protocol is normally activated over IP
interface. However, if we want to use packet-PW state as IP interface state, we
need to turn off hello protocol. Is that right? That is my second point in
previous e-mail.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'>Lucy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Andrew G. Malis<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 08, 2009
8:42 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> pwe3@ietf.org;
stbryant@cisco.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [PWE3]
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Jiang,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on
mapping between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting (without
being implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the all of the details
covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, &lt;<a
href="mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn">jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:sans-serif'>Andy,</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Is
there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine for virtual
interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Thanks,</span></font>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Albert</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%"
 style='width:100.0%'>
 <tr>
  <td width="26%" valign=top style='width:26.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
  <p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
  7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;font-weight:bold'>Lucy Yong &lt;<a
  href="mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com" target="_blank">lucyyong@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span></font></b><font
  size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'> </span></font><br>
  <font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>sender:
  &nbsp;<a href="mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">pwe3-bounces@ietf.org</a></span></font>
  <o:p></o:p></p>
  <p><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
  sans-serif'>2009-04-01 01:13</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
  <td width="73%" valign=top style='width:73.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
  <table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%"
   style='width:100.0%'>
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    <p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
    face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>to</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
    </td>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
    7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>'Stewart Bryant' &lt;<a
    href="mailto:stbryant@cisco.com" target="_blank">stbryant@cisco.com</a>&gt;,
    <a href="mailto:pwe3@ietf.org" target="_blank">pwe3@ietf.org</a>, &quot;'<st1:country-region
    w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Malis</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
    Andrew G. (Andy)'&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com"
    target="_blank">andrew.g.malis@verizon.com</a>&gt;</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
   <tr>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
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    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
    style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
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    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
    face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>topic</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
    </td>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
    7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>[PWE3] comments on packet pw</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
  style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0>
   <tr>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
    style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
    style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
  style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>Hi Stewart and
Andy,</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>&nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>I support this draft to
become WG draft. Congratulation!!</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>I also have some comments on
the draft:</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>&nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>1)</span></font><font
size=1><span style='font-size:7.5pt'> &nbsp; &nbsp; </span></font><font
face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>Since Packet PW requires using CW,
it is necessary to state how to use flow label and S/N for packet PW.</span></font>
<br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>2)</span></font><font
size=1><span style='font-size:7.5pt'> &nbsp; &nbsp; </span></font><font
face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>It is good to have the PW status
mapped to virtual interfaces. However, <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>each
protocol interface may have its own link status protocol</span></b> running,
the draft should state the procedures to determine interface status, or require
each protocol interface to turn off its link protocol when using Packet PW</span></font>
<br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>3)</span></font><font
size=1><span style='font-size:7.5pt'> &nbsp; &nbsp; </span></font><font
face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>Since Packet PW acts as a data
link between two clients LSRs, the draft should state link operational
procedures (for client networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine admin
cost, TE metrics, etc.</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>4)</span></font><font
size=1><span style='font-size:7.5pt'> &nbsp; &nbsp; </span></font><font
face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>I assume that a Packet PW can
obtain transport resiliency from server MPLS network, it would be nice for the
draft to state them and considers that the consequence may change admin cost in
client networks.</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>&nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>Cheers,</span></font> <br>
<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'>Lucy</span></font><tt><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></tt></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:sans-serif'><br>
</span></font><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

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  <p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
  7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;font-weight:bold'>&quot;Andrew G. Malis&quot;
  &lt;<a href="mailto:amalis@gmail.com" target="_blank">amalis@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span></font></b><font
  size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
  sans-serif'>2009-04-04 23:39</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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    <div>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
    7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'><a href="mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn"
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    style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
    7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'><a href="mailto:stbryant@cisco.com"
    target="_blank">stbryant@cisco.com</a>, <a href="mailto:pwe3@ietf.org"
    target="_blank">pwe3@ietf.org</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
   <tr>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
    style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
    7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt
    to WG draft?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
  style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0>
   <tr>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
    style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
    <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
    style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
  style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><tt><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jiang,</span></font></tt><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead
it would also require</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">running the PPP state machine and using PPP
options. We wanted to keep</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">this as simple as possible.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Thanks,</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Andy</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">2009/4/3 &nbsp;&lt;<a
href="mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn" target="_blank">jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;:</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt;</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt; Sir,</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt;</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt; Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for
Transport of PPP/High-Level Data</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt; Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt; be used as a solution for the scenario in
this draft? (although have more</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt; encapsulation overhead)</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt;</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">&gt; Thank you!</font></tt></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

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To: "Aissaoui, Mustapha (Mustapha)" <mustapha.aissaoui@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Bocci, Matthew (Matthew)" <matthew.bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, <pwe3@ietf.org>
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MA> I do not believe that BFD as defined today supports this mode of
operation. This mode requires that each
MA> PE be able to declare the PW to be down in the receive direction
independently based on not receiving a
MA> number of BFD control messages during a number of time intervals.
This mode would be similar to the way
MA> ATM and Ethernet CC work.=20
=20
Mustapha,
=20
I had a different interpretation of the way BFD works. In the
asynchornous mode, which the vccv-bfd draft prescribes, each end point
checks for the arrival of control messages sent by the remote end. If it
does not receive control messages, it enters the DOWN state. This is
specified in section 6.2.
=20
Since the flow of control messages consists of two independent,
uni-directional flows, isn't it true that the downstream PE can
autonomously declare a receive defect?
=20
Peter


________________________________

	From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of AISSAOUI Mustapha
	Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:21 AM
	To: Bocci, Matthew (Matthew); pwe3@ietf.org
	Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG last call
=09
=09
	Dear all,
	as requested by Matthew, I reviewed this draft and I have
compiled my comments below.
	=20
	Regards,
	Mustapha.
	---------------------------------------------------
	Comments on draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03

	1. Section 3.1, last paragraph states:

	"

	When the downstream PE (D-PE) does not receive BFD control
messages from its upstream peer PE (U-PE) during a certain number of
transmission intervals (a number provisioned by the operator as Detect
Mult), D-PE declares that the PW in its receive direction is down. In
other words, D-PE enters the "forward defect" state for this PW. After
this calculated Detection Time, D-PE declares the session Down, and
signals this to the remote end via the State (Sta) with Diagnostic code
1 (Control Detection Time Expired). In turn, U-PE declares the PW is
down in its transmit direction setting the State to Down, and it using
Diagnostic code 3 (Neighbor signaled session down) in its control
messages to D-PE. U-PE enters the "reverse defect" state for this PW. If
needed, how it further processes this error condition, and conveys this
status to the attachment circuits is out of the scope of this
specification, and is instead defined in [I-D.ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map].=20

	"

	MA> I do not believe that BFD as defined today supports this
mode of operation. This mode requires that each PE be able to declare
the PW to be down in the receive direction independently based on not
receiving a number of BFD control messages during a number of time
intervals. This mode would be similar to the way ATM and Ethernet CC
work.=20

	However, BFD requires that the sender of the messages declares
the state of the PW to be down if replies to its own BFD messages were
not received for a number of time intervals.=20

	Given that, the sender cannot tell which direction of the PW is
down, it must enter the PW receive defect state as explained in
draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-09.txt. However, the receiver of the
messages can send a BFD status change asynchronously and in this case
the sender can be sure the defect is in the forward direction, which
means it must enter the PW trasmit defect state.

	I believe Appendix B of draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-09.txt must
also be corrected as it states:

	"

	Furthermore, the detection of a fault could occur at different
points in the network and there are several ways the observing PE
determines a fault exists:=20

	a. egress or ingress PE detection of failure (e.g. BFD)=20

	....

	"

	2. Section 3.2 - BFD Encapsulation

	MA> We need to document how the reply to the BFD packet is
encapsulated. The following reply modes of "2- Reply via an IPv4/IPv6
UDP packet", "3 - Reply via an IPv4/IPv6 UDP packet with Router Alert",
and "4 - Reply via application level control channel" must be documented
for the UDP/IP encapsulation. The PW-ACH necapsulation can only support
reply mode 4 since it cannot be routed. I believe the relevant text for
this is covered in draft-ietf-bfd-mpls-07.txt.=20

	3. Section 3.3, item (3) reads:

	"

	4. Pseudowires that do not use a CW or L2SS using the PW
Associated Channel Header MUST NOT use the BFD CV Types 0x10 or 0x20
(i.e., PW-ACH encapsulation of BFD, without IP/UDP headers).=20

	A. PWs that use a PW-ACH include CC Type 1 (for both MPLS and
L2TPv3 as defined in Sections 5.1.1 and 6.1 of [RFC5085]), and MPLS CC
Types 2 and 3 when using a Control Word (as specified in Sections 5.1.2
and 5.1.3 of [RFC5085]). This restriction stems from the fact that the
PW-ACH contains a Protocol Identification (PID) field, the Channel Type.


	B. PWs that do not use a PW-ACH can use the VCCV BFD
encapsulation with IP/UDP headers, including its concurrent use along
with another CV Type that uses an encapsulation with IP headers (e.g.,
ICMP Ping or LSP Ping). For example, as specified in Section 7 of
[RFC4385], a Pseudowire operating without CW MUST NOT use the PW-ACH.=20

	"

	MA> This paragraph is trying to convey too many things and is
confusing. I propose we split it into the case of PW with ACH and PW
with no ACH. Here is a proposal which I believe covers all the intended
points:

	"

	4. A PW that uses the PW-ACH must signal CC Type 1 only in the
VCCV parameter included in the interface parameter field of the PW ID
FEC TLV or the sub-TLV interface parameter of the Generalized PW ID FEC
TLV as described in [RFC 5085].=20

	5. A PW that does not use a PW-ACH must signal CC Types 2 and/or
3 in the VCCV parameter included in the interface parameter field of the
PW ID FEC TLV or the sub-TLV interface parameter of the Generalized PW
ID FEC TLV as described in [RFC 5085]. For example, this can be a PW
which is configured not to use the CW on the user packets. As specified
in Section 7 of [RFC4385], this PW MUST NOT use the PW-ACH.=20

	6. A PW that does not use the PW-ACH MUST NOT use the BFD CV
Types 0x10 or 0x20 (i.e., PW-ACH encapsulation of BFD, without IP/UDP
headers). This restriction stems from the fact that the PW-ACH contains
a Protocol Identification (PID) field, the Channel Type, which is the
only way to identify BFD messages with these CV types.

	7. A PW can use the VCCV BFD encapsulation with IP/UDP headers,
including its concurrent use along with another CV type that uses an
encapsulation with IP headers (e.g., ICMP Ping or LSP Ping), regardless
if it is configured to use PW-ACH or not.

	"

	5. Section 3.3, item (4)

	"

	4. Only a single BFD CV Type can be selected and used. All BFD
CV Types are mutually exclusive with the rest, after selecting a BFD CV
Type, a node MUST NOT use any of the other three BFD CV Types.=20

	"

	MA> It must be stated that in order to change the negotiation
and selection of the BFD CV types, the PW must be torn down and
re-signaled.=20

	---------------------------------------------------
=09

________________________________

		From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of BOCCI Matthew
		Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:09 AM
		To: pwe3@ietf.org
		Subject: [PWE3] draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG last
call
	=09
	=09

		This is the start of working group last call on
draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt=20

		This draft can be found at:=20

=09
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt> =20

		The last call will close on Monday 6th April 2009.=20

		Please read the document and provide feedback to the
PWE3 list.=20

		Many thanks to the following, who have also kindly
agreed to review the draft and provide comments to the list:=20
		Ben Niven-Jenkins=20
		Mustapha Aissaoui=20
		Luca Martini=20
		Yaakov Stein=20

		Best regards=20

		Matthew=20




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG last call</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3492" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MA&gt; I do not =
believe that BFD=20
as defined today supports this mode of operation. This mode requires =
that=20
each</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D764571019-08042009>MA&gt; </SPAN>PE be able to declare the PW to =
be down=20
in the receive direction independently based on not receiving=20
a</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D764571019-08042009>MA&gt;</SPAN>&nbsp;number of BFD control =
messages=20
during a number of time intervals. This mode would be similar to the=20
way</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D764571019-08042009>MA&gt;</SPAN>&nbsp;ATM and Ethernet CC work.=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D764571019-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Mustapha,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D764571019-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D764571019-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>I=20
had a different interpretation of the way BFD works. In the asynchornous =
mode,=20
which the vccv-bfd draft prescribes, each end point checks for the =
arrival of=20
control messages sent by the remote end. If it does not receive control=20
messages, it enters the DOWN state. This is specified in section=20
6.2.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D764571019-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Since the flow of control messages consists of two independent, =

uni-directional flows, isn't it true that the downstream PE can =
autonomously=20
declare a receive defect?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D764571019-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D764571019-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Peter</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> pwe3-bounces@ietf.org=20
  [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>AISSAOUI=20
  Mustapha<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:21 =
AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  Bocci, Matthew (Matthew); pwe3@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PWE3]=20
  draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG last call<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Dear all,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>as requested by Matthew, I&nbsp;reviewed this draft and I =
have=20
  compiled&nbsp;my&nbsp;comments below.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Mustapha.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>---------------------------------------------------</FONT></SPAN=
></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>
  <P>Comments </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>on=20
  draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03</P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
  <P>1. Section 3.1, last paragraph states:</P>
  <P>"</P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
  <P>When the downstream PE (D-PE) does not receive BFD control messages =
from=20
  its upstream peer PE (U-PE) during a certain number of transmission =
intervals=20
  (a number provisioned by the operator as Detect Mult), D-PE declares =
that the=20
  PW in its receive direction is down. In other words, D-PE enters the =
"forward=20
  defect" state for this PW. After this calculated Detection Time, D-PE =
declares=20
  the session Down, and signals this to the remote end via the State =
(Sta) with=20
  Diagnostic code 1 (Control Detection Time Expired). In turn, U-PE =
declares the=20
  PW is down in its transmit direction setting the State to Down, and it =
using=20
  Diagnostic code 3 (Neighbor signaled session down) in its control =
messages to=20
  D-PE. U-PE enters the "reverse defect" state for this PW. If needed, =
how it=20
  further processes this error condition, and conveys this status to the =

  attachment circuits is out of the scope of this specification, and is =
instead=20
  defined in [I-D.ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map]. </P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
  <P>"</P>
  <P>MA&gt; I do not believe that BFD as defined today supports this =
mode of=20
  operation. This mode requires that each PE be able to declare the PW =
to be=20
  down in the receive direction independently based on not receiving a =
number of=20
  BFD control messages during a number of time intervals. This mode =
would be=20
  similar to the way ATM and Ethernet CC work. </P>
  <P>However, BFD requires that the sender of the messages declares the =
state of=20
  the PW to be down if replies to its own BFD messages were not received =
for a=20
  number of time intervals. </P>
  <P>Given that, the sender cannot tell which direction of the PW is =
down, it=20
  must enter the PW receive defect state as explained in=20
  draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-09.txt. However, the receiver of the =
messages can=20
  send a BFD status change asynchronously and in this case the sender =
can be=20
  sure the defect is in the forward direction, which means it must enter =
the PW=20
  trasmit defect state.</P>
  <P>I believe Appendix B of draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-09.txt must =
also be=20
  corrected as it states:</P>
  <P>"</P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
  <P>Furthermore, the detection of a fault could occur at different =
points in=20
  the network and there are several ways the observing PE determines a =
fault=20
  exists: </P>
  <P>a. egress or ingress PE detection of failure (e.g. BFD) </P>
  <P>&#8230;.</P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
  <P>"</P>
  <P>2. Section 3.2 - BFD Encapsulation</P>
  <P>MA&gt; We need to document how the reply to the BFD packet is =
encapsulated.=20
  The following reply modes of "</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>2-=20
  Reply via an IPv4/IPv6 UDP packet", "3 - Reply via an IPv4/IPv6 UDP =
packet=20
  with Router Alert", and "4 - Reply via application level control=20
  channel</FONT>" must be documented<SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009> =
for the=20
  UDP/IP encapsulation</SPAN>.<SPAN class=3D726571614-08042009> The =
PW-ACH=20
  necapsulation can only support reply mode 4 since it cannot be=20
  routed.</SPAN>&nbsp;I believe the&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D726571614-08042009>relevant=20
  </SPAN>text for this is covered in draft-ietf-bfd-mpls-07.txt. </P>
  <P>3. Section 3.3, item (3) reads:</P>
  <P>"</P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
  <P>4. Pseudowires that do not use a CW or L2SS using the PW Associated =
Channel=20
  Header MUST NOT use the BFD CV Types 0x10 or 0x20 (i.e., PW-ACH =
encapsulation=20
  of BFD, without IP/UDP headers). </P>
  <P>A. PWs that use a PW-ACH include CC Type 1 (for both MPLS and =
L2TPv3 as=20
  defined in Sections 5.1.1 and 6.1 of [RFC5085]), and MPLS CC Types 2 =
and 3=20
  when using a Control Word (as specified in Sections 5.1.2 and 5.1.3 of =

  [RFC5085]). This restriction stems from the fact that the PW-ACH =
contains a=20
  Protocol Identification (PID) field, the Channel Type. </P>
  <P>B. PWs that do not use a PW-ACH can use the VCCV BFD encapsulation =
with=20
  IP/UDP headers, including its concurrent use along with another CV =
Type that=20
  uses an encapsulation with IP headers (e.g., ICMP Ping or LSP Ping). =
For=20
  example, as specified in Section 7 of [RFC4385], a Pseudowire =
operating=20
  without CW MUST NOT use the PW-ACH. </P></FONT>
  <P>"</P>
  <P>MA&gt; This paragraph is trying to convey too many things and is =
confusing.=20
  I propose we split it into the case of PW with ACH and PW with no ACH. =
Here is=20
  a proposal which I believe covers all the intended points:</P>
  <P>"</P>
  <P>4. <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3>A PW that uses the =
PW-ACH must=20
  signal CC Type 1 only in the VCCV parameter included in the interface=20
  parameter field of the PW ID FEC TLV or the sub-TLV interface =
parameter of the=20
  Generalized PW ID FEC TLV as described in [RFC 5085]. </FONT></P>
  <P>5. A PW that does not use a PW-ACH must signal CC Types 2 and/or 3 =
in the=20
  VCCV parameter included in the interface parameter field of the PW ID =
FEC TLV=20
  or the sub-TLV interface parameter of the Generalized PW ID FEC TLV as =

  described in [RFC 5085]. For example, this can be a PW which is =
configured not=20
  to use the CW on the user packets. As specified in Section 7 of =
[RFC4385],=20
  this PW MUST NOT use the PW-ACH. </P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
  <P>6. A </FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D3>PW that =
does not use=20
  the PW-ACH MUST NOT use the BFD CV Types 0x10 or 0x20 (i.e., PW-ACH=20
  encapsulation of BFD, without IP/UDP headers). This restriction stems =
from the=20
  fact that the PW-ACH contains a Protocol Identification (PID) field, =
the=20
  Channel Type, which is the only way to identify BFD messages with =
these CV=20
  types.</FONT></P>
  <P>7. A PW can use the VCCV BFD encapsulation with IP/UDP headers, =
including=20
  its concurrent use along with another CV type that uses an =
encapsulation with=20
  IP headers (e.g., ICMP Ping or LSP Ping), regardless if it is =
configured to=20
  use PW-ACH or not.</P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
  <P>"</P>
  <P>5. Section 3.3, item (4)</P>
  <P>"</P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
  <P>4. Only a single BFD CV Type can be selected and used. All BFD CV =
Types are=20
  mutually exclusive with the rest, after selecting a BFD CV Type, a =
node MUST=20
  NOT use any of the other three BFD CV Types. </P></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>
  <P>"</P>
  <P>MA&gt; It must be stated that in order to change the negotiation =
and=20
  selection of the BFD CV types, the PW must be torn down and =
re-signaled.=20
  </P></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
  size=3D2>---------------------------------------------------<SPAN=20
  class=3D726571614-08042009></SPAN></FONT></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> pwe3-bounces@ietf.org=20
    [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>BOCCI=20
    Matthew<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 09, 2009 11:09 =
AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
    pwe3@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [PWE3] =
draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt WG=20
    last call<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>This is the start of working =
group last=20
    call on draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.txt</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>This draft can be found =
at:</FONT> </P>
    <P><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.t=
xt"><U><FONT=20
    face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#0000ff=20
    =
size=3D2>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-vccv-bfd-03.=
txt</FONT></U></A>=20
    </P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>The last call will close on =
Monday 6th=20
    April 2009.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Please read the document and =
provide=20
    feedback to the PWE3 list.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Many thanks to the following, =
who have=20
    also kindly agreed to review the draft and provide comments to the=20
    list:</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Ben =
Niven-Jenkins</FONT>=20
    <BR><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Mustapha Aissaoui</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
    face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Luca Martini</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
    size=3D2>Yaakov Stein</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Best regards</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Matthew</FONT>=20
</P><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:51:17 +0100
From: Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
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To: Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com>
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Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Lucy

Turning off bits of the routing protocol is actually quite hard, risks 
breaking the protocol and requires us to track and reflect those changes 
in the surrogate protocol. We would therefore want to run the link state 
routing protocol unmodified including the hellos.

Stewart


Lucy Yong wrote:
>
> Hi Andy and XiaoWei,
>
>  
>
> Since the purpose of packet-PW is to create a virtual physical 
> interface for two connected client LSRs and allow multiple client 
> protocols run over it. Assume the client LSP is IP router, it runs 
> OSPF or IS-IS. To support the routing protocol properly running, IP 
> interface is configured over a packet-PW. Hello protocol is normally 
> activated over IP interface. However, if we want to use packet-PW 
> state as IP interface state, we need to turn off hello protocol. Is 
> that right? That is my second point in previous e-mail.
>
>  
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lucy
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *Andrew G. Malis
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:42 AM
> *To:* jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> *Cc:* pwe3@ietf.org; stbryant@cisco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>
>  
>
> Jiang,
>
>  
>
> I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on 
> mapping between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting 
> (without being implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the 
> all of the details covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.
>
>  
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy
>
>  
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn 
> <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
>
>
> Andy,
>
> Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine 
> for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?
>
> Thanks,
> Albert
>
>
>
> *Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com <mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com>>*
> sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org>
>
> 2009-04-01 01:13
>
> 	
>
> to
>
> 	
>
> 'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>>, 
> pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>, "'Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)'" 
> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com <mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>>
>
> cc
>
> 	
>
>  
>
> topic
>
> 	
>
> [PWE3] comments on packet pw
>
>  
>
>  
>
> 	
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Hi Stewart and Andy,
>  
> I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!
> I also have some comments on the draft:
>  
> 1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state how 
> to use flow label and S/N for packet PW.
> 2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual interfaces. 
> However, *each protocol interface may have its own link status 
> protocol* running, the draft should state the procedures to determine 
> interface status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its 
> link protocol when using Packet PW
> 3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs, 
> the draft should state link operational procedures (for client 
> networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE 
> metrics, etc.
> 4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency from 
> server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them and 
> considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client networks.
>  
> Cheers,
> Lucy_______________________________________________
>
>
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
>
>
>
>
> *"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com <mailto:amalis@gmail.com>>*
>
> 2009-04-04 23:39
>
> 	
>
>  
>
> 	
>
> jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>
>
>  
>
> 	
>
> stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org 
> <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
>
>  
>
> 	
>
> Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>
>  
>
>  
>
> 	
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
> Jiang,
>
> Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
> running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
> this as simple as possible.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>
> 2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>>:
> >
> > Sir,
> >
> > Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level Data
> > Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> > be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have more
> > encapsulation overhead)
> >
> > Thank you!
>
>  
>


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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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liu.guoman@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
> Stewart:
> I understand your meaning , but I think it unnecessary to use and
> apply another flow label. we may add 2 bytes flow ID in services header,

What do you mean by the services header?

> so at sink point, it identify and re-encapsulate the services context
> by flow id and SN in services header.
> do you think so.

Please can you sketch out your label stack and describe the operations
you have in mind?

Thanks

Stewart
> regards
> liu
>
>
> *Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>*
>
> 2009-04-02 19:24
> Çë´ð¸´ ¸ø
> stbryant@cisco.com
>
>
> 	
> ÊÕ¼þÈË
> 	liu.guoman@zte.com.cn
> ³­ËÍ
> 	pwe3@ietf.org
> Ö÷Ìâ
> 	Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
> liu.guoman@zte.com.cn wrote:
> >
> > Stewart:
> > my problem is : if there is a multimedia data flow, the flow must be
> > transported in order. or else it will not become a multimedia flow.
> > how to process the data flow by ECMP?
> > IMO, there are two solutions:
> > 1 at sink points, there are enough buffers to store the data flow.
> > 2 during transporting the data flow, it must transport in order.
> >
> > do you think so?
> > regards
> > liu
> >
> Yes
>
> Remember this draft is simply a tool that is used to spread out already
> identified flows over the ECMP set.
>
> The processing into and out of a fat pw is outside it's scope.
>
> Clearly you can enable s/n - apply the LB label - and put the flow back
> together at the egress if that suits you application otherwise as you
> say you have to have large enough end to end b/w.
>
> Remember what it says in the PWE3 charter - if the best effort emulation
> provided by PWE3 is not good enough, then either propose a better
> emulation, or use a real wire.
>
> Stewart
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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From stbryant@cisco.com  Tue Apr 14 04:16:59 2009
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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:18:03 +0100
From: Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: mpls@ietf.org, pwe3@ietf.org, mpls-tp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
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Liu

You cannot use information in the payload (i.e. after BoS) to load
balance, because in MPLS the payload is opaque.


liu.guoman@zte.com.cn wrote:
>
> stewart:
> it is not clear expression here to use service header . IMO, adding
> flow ID following CW field to identify which flow the service data
> will belong to? then the service data may be carried by ECMP to
> another sink points, the sink points will identify the service data by
> flow ID . and the packet formats will the following:
> LSP Label
> PW Label
> CW
> Flow ID
> Service data
>
>
>
> in addtions. if using a flow label, I think the draft will be MPLS or
> MPLS-TP draft and shouldn't be disscussed in pwe3 work group.
> thank you.
> liu
>
This is a PWE3 problem because:

1) PWE3 needs a method of addressing the ECMP case
2) PWE3 will signal this in a different way from MPLS
3) MPLS-TP does not have ECMP.

Stewart

>
> *Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>*
>
> 2009-04-14 15:54
> Çë´ð¸´ ¸ø
> stbryant@cisco.com
>
>
> 	
> ÊÕ¼þÈË
> 	liu.guoman@zte.com.cn
> ³­ËÍ
> 	pwe3@ietf.org
> Ö÷Ìâ
> 	Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
> liu.guoman@zte.com.cn wrote:
> >
> > Stewart:
> > I understand your meaning , but I think it unnecessary to use and
> > apply another flow label. we may add 2 bytes flow ID in services header,
>
> What do you mean by the services header?
>
> > so at sink point, it identify and re-encapsulate the services context
> > by flow id and SN in services header.
> > do you think so.
>
> Please can you sketch out your label stack and describe the operations
> you have in mind?
>
> Thanks
>
> Stewart
> > regards
> > liu
> >
> >
> > *Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>*
> >
> > 2009-04-02 19:24
> > Çë´ð¸´ ¸ø
> > stbryant@cisco.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ÊÕ¼þÈË
> > liu.guoman@zte.com.cn
> > ³­ËÍ
> > pwe3@ietf.org
> > Ö÷Ìâ
> > Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-filsfils-fat-pw-03 to WG draft?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > liu.guoman@zte.com.cn wrote:
> > >
> > > Stewart:
> > > my problem is : if there is a multimedia data flow, the flow must be
> > > transported in order. or else it will not become a multimedia flow.
> > > how to process the data flow by ECMP?
> > > IMO, there are two solutions:
> > > 1 at sink points, there are enough buffers to store the data flow.
> > > 2 during transporting the data flow, it must transport in order.
> > >
> > > do you think so?
> > > regards
> > > liu
> > >
> > Yes
> >
> > Remember this draft is simply a tool that is used to spread out already
> > identified flows over the ECMP set.
> >
> > The processing into and out of a fat pw is outside it's scope.
> >
> > Clearly you can enable s/n - apply the LB label - and put the flow back
> > together at the egress if that suits you application otherwise as you
> > say you have to have large enough end to end b/w.
> >
> > Remember what it says in the PWE3 charter - if the best effort emulation
> > provided by PWE3 is not good enough, then either propose a better
> > emulation, or use a real wire.
> >
> > Stewart
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > ZTE Information Security Notice: The information contained in this
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From: "Riccardo Martinotti" <riccardo.martinotti@ericsson.com>
To: "BOCCI Matthew" <Matthew.Bocci@alcatel-lucent.com>, <pwe3@ietf.org>
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Support,

=20

however, following also my previous email on this subject, I would like =
IETF during working group drafting could better specify the interworking =
function on the virtual physical termination.

I think that it's also important to address Lucy's third point.

=20

Regards,

Riccardo=20

=20

________________________________

From: mpls-tp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mpls-tp-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of BOCCI Matthew
Sent: marted=EC 31 marzo 2009 14.01
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Cc: mpls-tp@ietf.org
Subject: [mpls-tp] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?

=20

This is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move =
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group draft.

Please can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or =
otherwise).=20

This poll will close on 14th April 2009.=20

Regards=20

Matthew=20

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Support,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>however, =
following also my
previous email on this subject, I would like IETF during working group =
drafting
could better specify the interworking function on the virtual physical
termination.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think that =
it&#8217;s
also important to address Lucy&#8217;s third =
point.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Riccardo =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div>

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size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
mpls-tp-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mpls-tp-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>BOCCI Matthew<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> marted=EC 31 marzo =
2009 14.01<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> pwe3@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">mpls-tp@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [mpls-tp] =
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt
to WG draft?</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This
is the start of a two week poll to judge the consensus to move
draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to a PWE3 Working Group =
draft.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Please
can you respond, *to the PWE3 list only*, with your approval (or =
otherwise).</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This
poll will close on 14th April 2009.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Regards</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Matthew</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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From lucyyong@huawei.com  Tue Apr 14 15:58:02 2009
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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:22:40 -0500
From: Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Hi Stewart,

If link hello protocol can't be turned off, then the following statement in
the section 4 does not apply. LSR has to use link state routing protocol to
decide if the interface is up or down. I suggest revising the section 4 and
adding your description (below) in. 

4.  Status Indication

   A pseudowire status indicating a fault can be considered equivalent
   to interface down and SHOULD be passed across the virtual interface
   to the local LSR.  This improves scaling in PE with large numbers of
   c-resident LSRs and with LSRs that have large numbers of interfaces
   mapped to pseudowires.

We should also mention in the draft that since client LSR runs its own link
state protocols to its peers, there is no need to use PW status message to
carry LSR local link state fault to Packet-PW remote.

Regards,
Lucy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:51 AM
> To: Lucy Yong
> Cc: 'Andrew G. Malis'; jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn; pwe3@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> 
> Lucy
> 
> Turning off bits of the routing protocol is actually quite hard, risks
> breaking the protocol and requires us to track and reflect those changes
> in the surrogate protocol. We would therefore want to run the link state
> routing protocol unmodified including the hellos.
> 
> Stewart
> 
> 
> Lucy Yong wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andy and XiaoWei,
> >
> >
> >
> > Since the purpose of packet-PW is to create a virtual physical
> > interface for two connected client LSRs and allow multiple client
> > protocols run over it. Assume the client LSP is IP router, it runs
> > OSPF or IS-IS. To support the routing protocol properly running, IP
> > interface is configured over a packet-PW. Hello protocol is normally
> > activated over IP interface. However, if we want to use packet-PW
> > state as IP interface state, we need to turn off hello protocol. Is
> > that right? That is my second point in previous e-mail.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Lucy
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> > Behalf Of *Andrew G. Malis
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:42 AM
> > *To:* jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> > *Cc:* pwe3@ietf.org; stbryant@cisco.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> >
> >
> >
> > Jiang,
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on
> > mapping between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting
> > (without being implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the
> > all of the details covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> > <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Andy,
> >
> > Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine
> > for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Albert
> >
> >
> >
> > *Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com <mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com>>*
> > sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org>
> >
> > 2009-04-01 01:13
> >
> >
> >
> > to
> >
> >
> >
> > 'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>>,
> > pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>, "'Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)'"
> > <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com <mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>>
> >
> > cc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > topic
> >
> >
> >
> > [PWE3] comments on packet pw
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Stewart and Andy,
> >
> > I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!
> > I also have some comments on the draft:
> >
> > 1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state how
> > to use flow label and S/N for packet PW.
> > 2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual interfaces.
> > However, *each protocol interface may have its own link status
> > protocol* running, the draft should state the procedures to determine
> > interface status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its
> > link protocol when using Packet PW
> > 3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs,
> > the draft should state link operational procedures (for client
> > networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE
> > metrics, etc.
> > 4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency from
> > server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them and
> > considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client networks.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Lucy_______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > pwe3 mailing list
> > pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com <mailto:amalis@gmail.com>>*
> >
> > 2009-04-04 23:39
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org
> > <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jiang,
> >
> > Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
> > running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
> > this as simple as possible.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andy
> >
> > 2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>>:
> > >
> > > Sir,
> > >
> > > Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level
Data
> > > Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> > > be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have
more
> > > encapsulation overhead)
> > >
> > > Thank you!
> >
> >
> >


From hshah@ciena.com  Tue Apr 14 18:56:34 2009
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From: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>
To: "Lucy Yong" <lucyyong@huawei.com>, <stbryant@cisco.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Apr 2009 01:57:44.0247 (UTC) FILETIME=[913BCC70:01C9BD6D]
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Not sure where this discussion is going but...

if a physical point-to-point connection is being
mimicked by a 'virtual wire' (i.e. pw) with its
corresponding mechanisms of up/down (i.e. pw status), etc,
why should layer above (or for that matter layer below)
start making exceptions??

what am I missing here???

/himanshu




-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Lucy Yong
Sent: Tue 4/14/2009 6:22 PM
To: stbryant@cisco.com
Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
=20
Hi Stewart,

If link hello protocol can't be turned off, then the following statement =
in
the section 4 does not apply. LSR has to use link state routing protocol =
to
decide if the interface is up or down. I suggest revising the section 4 =
and
adding your description (below) in.=20

4.  Status Indication

   A pseudowire status indicating a fault can be considered equivalent
   to interface down and SHOULD be passed across the virtual interface
   to the local LSR.  This improves scaling in PE with large numbers of
   c-resident LSRs and with LSRs that have large numbers of interfaces
   mapped to pseudowires.

We should also mention in the draft that since client LSR runs its own =
link
state protocols to its peers, there is no need to use PW status message =
to
carry LSR local link state fault to Packet-PW remote.

Regards,
Lucy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:51 AM
> To: Lucy Yong
> Cc: 'Andrew G. Malis'; jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn; pwe3@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>=20
> Lucy
>=20
> Turning off bits of the routing protocol is actually quite hard, risks
> breaking the protocol and requires us to track and reflect those =
changes
> in the surrogate protocol. We would therefore want to run the link =
state
> routing protocol unmodified including the hellos.
>=20
> Stewart
>=20
>=20
> Lucy Yong wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andy and XiaoWei,
> >
> >
> >
> > Since the purpose of packet-PW is to create a virtual physical
> > interface for two connected client LSRs and allow multiple client
> > protocols run over it. Assume the client LSP is IP router, it runs
> > OSPF or IS-IS. To support the routing protocol properly running, IP
> > interface is configured over a packet-PW. Hello protocol is normally
> > activated over IP interface. However, if we want to use packet-PW
> > state as IP interface state, we need to turn off hello protocol. Is
> > that right? That is my second point in previous e-mail.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Lucy
> >
> >
> >
> > =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> > Behalf Of *Andrew G. Malis
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:42 AM
> > *To:* jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> > *Cc:* pwe3@ietf.org; stbryant@cisco.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG =
draft?
> >
> >
> >
> > Jiang,
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on
> > mapping between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting
> > (without being implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the
> > all of the details covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> > <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Andy,
> >
> > Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state =
machine
> > for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Albert
> >
> >
> >
> > *Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com <mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com>>*
> > sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org>
> >
> > 2009-04-01 01:13
> >
> >
> >
> > to
> >
> >
> >
> > 'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>>,
> > pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>, "'Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)'"
> > <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com <mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>>
> >
> > cc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > topic
> >
> >
> >
> > [PWE3] comments on packet pw
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Stewart and Andy,
> >
> > I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!
> > I also have some comments on the draft:
> >
> > 1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state =
how
> > to use flow label and S/N for packet PW.
> > 2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual =
interfaces.
> > However, *each protocol interface may have its own link status
> > protocol* running, the draft should state the procedures to =
determine
> > interface status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its
> > link protocol when using Packet PW
> > 3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs,
> > the draft should state link operational procedures (for client
> > networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE
> > metrics, etc.
> > 4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency =
from
> > server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them =
and
> > considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client =
networks.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Lucy_______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > pwe3 mailing list
> > pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com <mailto:amalis@gmail.com>>*
> >
> > 2009-04-04 23:39
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org
> > <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jiang,
> >
> > Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also =
require
> > running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to =
keep
> > this as simple as possible.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andy
> >
> > 2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn =
<mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>>:
> > >
> > > Sir,
> > >
> > > Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of =
PPP/High-Level
Data
> > > Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> > > be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although =
have
more
> > > encapsulation overhead)
> > >
> > > Thank you!
> >
> >
> >

_______________________________________________
pwe3 mailing list
pwe3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3



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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Not sure where this discussion is going but...<BR>
<BR>
if a physical point-to-point connection is being<BR>
mimicked by a 'virtual wire' (i.e. pw) with its<BR>
corresponding mechanisms of up/down (i.e. pw status), etc,<BR>
why should layer above (or for that matter layer below)<BR>
start making exceptions??<BR>
<BR>
what am I missing here???<BR>
<BR>
/himanshu<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></P><BR><IMG ALIGN=3D"baseline" ALT BORDER=3D"0" HSPACE=3D"0" =
SRC=3D"cid:imageabff11.gif@74d7ac56.b7d644c1"><BR><P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=3D2><BR>
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Lucy Yong<BR>
Sent: Tue 4/14/2009 6:22 PM<BR>
To: stbryant@cisco.com<BR>
Cc: pwe3@ietf.org<BR>
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?<BR>
<BR>
Hi Stewart,<BR>
<BR>
If link hello protocol can't be turned off, then the following statement =
in<BR>
the section 4 does not apply. LSR has to use link state routing protocol =
to<BR>
decide if the interface is up or down. I suggest revising the section 4 =
and<BR>
adding your description (below) in.<BR>
<BR>
4.&nbsp; Status Indication<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; A pseudowire status indicating a fault can be considered =
equivalent<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; to interface down and SHOULD be passed across the virtual =
interface<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; to the local LSR.&nbsp; This improves scaling in PE with =
large numbers of<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; c-resident LSRs and with LSRs that have large numbers of =
interfaces<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; mapped to pseudowires.<BR>
<BR>
We should also mention in the draft that since client LSR runs its own =
link<BR>
state protocols to its peers, there is no need to use PW status message =
to<BR>
carry LSR local link state fault to Packet-PW remote.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Lucy<BR>
<BR>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>
&gt; From: Stewart Bryant [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stbryant@cisco.com">mailto:stbryant@cisco.com</A>]<BR>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:51 AM<BR>
&gt; To: Lucy Yong<BR>
&gt; Cc: 'Andrew G. Malis'; jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn; pwe3@ietf.org<BR>
&gt; Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG =
draft?<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Lucy<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Turning off bits of the routing protocol is actually quite hard, =
risks<BR>
&gt; breaking the protocol and requires us to track and reflect those =
changes<BR>
&gt; in the surrogate protocol. We would therefore want to run the link =
state<BR>
&gt; routing protocol unmodified including the hellos.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Stewart<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Lucy Yong wrote:<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Hi Andy and XiaoWei,<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Since the purpose of packet-PW is to create a virtual =
physical<BR>
&gt; &gt; interface for two connected client LSRs and allow multiple =
client<BR>
&gt; &gt; protocols run over it. Assume the client LSP is IP router, it =
runs<BR>
&gt; &gt; OSPF or IS-IS. To support the routing protocol properly =
running, IP<BR>
&gt; &gt; interface is configured over a packet-PW. Hello protocol is =
normally<BR>
&gt; &gt; activated over IP interface. However, if we want to use =
packet-PW<BR>
&gt; &gt; state as IP interface state, we need to turn off hello =
protocol. Is<BR>
&gt; &gt; that right? That is my second point in previous e-mail.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Lucy<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; =
------------------------------------------------------------------------<=
BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org</A>] =
*On<BR>
&gt; &gt; Behalf Of *Andrew G. Malis<BR>
&gt; &gt; *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:42 AM<BR>
&gt; &gt; *To:* jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn<BR>
&gt; &gt; *Cc:* pwe3@ietf.org; stbryant@cisco.com<BR>
&gt; &gt; *Subject:* Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG =
draft?<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Jiang,<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the =
details on<BR>
&gt; &gt; mapping between the virtual interface state and PW status =
reporting<BR>
&gt; &gt; (without being implementation-dependent) to make sure we've =
got the<BR>
&gt; &gt; all of the details covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as =
well.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Andy<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, =
&lt;jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn<BR>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn">mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn<=
/A>&gt;&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Andy,<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state =
machine<BR>
&gt; &gt; for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<BR>
&gt; &gt; Albert<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; *Lucy Yong &lt;lucyyong@huawei.com &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com">mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com</A>&gt;&gt=
;*<BR>
&gt; &gt; sender:&nbsp; pwe3-bounces@ietf.org &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org</A>&gt=
;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; 2009-04-01 01:13<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; to<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; 'Stewart Bryant' &lt;stbryant@cisco.com &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stbryant@cisco.com">mailto:stbryant@cisco.com</A>&gt;&gt;,=
<BR>
&gt; &gt; pwe3@ietf.org &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org">mailto:pwe3@ietf.org</A>&gt;, =
&quot;'Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)'&quot;<BR>
&gt; &gt; &lt;andrew.g.malis@verizon.com &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com">mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.=
com</A>&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; cc<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; topic<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; [PWE3] comments on packet pw<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Hi Stewart and Andy,<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!<BR>
&gt; &gt; I also have some comments on the draft:<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; 1)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Since Packet PW requires using CW, =
it is necessary to state how<BR>
&gt; &gt; to use flow label and S/N for packet PW.<BR>
&gt; &gt; 2)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is good to have the PW status =
mapped to virtual interfaces.<BR>
&gt; &gt; However, *each protocol interface may have its own link =
status<BR>
&gt; &gt; protocol* running, the draft should state the procedures to =
determine<BR>
&gt; &gt; interface status, or require each protocol interface to turn =
off its<BR>
&gt; &gt; link protocol when using Packet PW<BR>
&gt; &gt; 3)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Since Packet PW acts as a data link =
between two clients LSRs,<BR>
&gt; &gt; the draft should state link operational procedures (for =
client<BR>
&gt; &gt; networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine admin =
cost, TE<BR>
&gt; &gt; metrics, etc.<BR>
&gt; &gt; 4)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I assume that a Packet PW can =
obtain transport resiliency from<BR>
&gt; &gt; server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state =
them and<BR>
&gt; &gt; considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client =
networks.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Cheers,<BR>
&gt; &gt; Lucy_______________________________________________<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; pwe3 mailing list<BR>
&gt; &gt; pwe3@ietf.org &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org">mailto:pwe3@ietf.org</A>&gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; <A =
HREF=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/pwe3</A><BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; *&quot;Andrew G. Malis&quot; &lt;amalis@gmail.com &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:amalis@gmail.com">mailto:amalis@gmail.com</A>&gt;&gt;*<BR>=

&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; 2009-04-04 23:39<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn">mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn<=
/A>&gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; stbryant@cisco.com &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stbryant@cisco.com">mailto:stbryant@cisco.com</A>&gt;, =
pwe3@ietf.org<BR>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pwe3@ietf.org">mailto:pwe3@ietf.org</A>&gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Jiang,<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also =
require<BR>
&gt; &gt; running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted =
to keep<BR>
&gt; &gt; this as simple as possible.<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<BR>
&gt; &gt; Andy<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; 2009/4/3&nbsp; &lt;jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn &lt;<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn">mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn<=
/A>&gt;&gt;:<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sir,<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of =
PPP/High-Level<BR>
Data<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt; be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? =
(although have<BR>
more<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt; encapsulation overhead)<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Thank you!<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
pwe3 mailing list<BR>
pwe3@ietf.org<BR>
<A =
HREF=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/pwe3</A><BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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Cc: pwe3 <pwe3@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Lucy

The statement in (4) is still correct, because you can turn the hello 
rate down and
use the network indication fault indication to indicate the absence of 
end to end
connectivity.

You can't turn hello's off because they carry all sorts of adjacency 
information, but
you can still configure the system so that connectivity loss is 
primarily reported
through loss of light or its functional equivalent (PW down) and this is 
what we
propose in the text.

It might be useful of I added some text to the draft stating that the 
scaling
improvement occurs because the operator can reduce the hello packet and
BFD rate.

Stewart

Lucy Yong wrote:
> Hi Stewart,
>
> If link hello protocol can't be turned off, then the following statement in
> the section 4 does not apply. LSR has to use link state routing protocol to
> decide if the interface is up or down. I suggest revising the section 4 and
> adding your description (below) in. 
>
> 4.  Status Indication
>
>    A pseudowire status indicating a fault can be considered equivalent
>    to interface down and SHOULD be passed across the virtual interface
>    to the local LSR.  This improves scaling in PE with large numbers of
>    c-resident LSRs and with LSRs that have large numbers of interfaces
>    mapped to pseudowires.
>
> We should also mention in the draft that since client LSR runs its own link
> state protocols to its peers, there is no need to use PW status message to
> carry LSR local link state fault to Packet-PW remote.
>
> Regards,
> Lucy
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:51 AM
>> To: Lucy Yong
>> Cc: 'Andrew G. Malis'; jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn; pwe3@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>> Turning off bits of the routing protocol is actually quite hard, risks
>> breaking the protocol and requires us to track and reflect those changes
>> in the surrogate protocol. We would therefore want to run the link state
>> routing protocol unmodified including the hellos.
>>
>> Stewart
>>
>>
>> Lucy Yong wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi Andy and XiaoWei,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Since the purpose of packet-PW is to create a virtual physical
>>> interface for two connected client LSRs and allow multiple client
>>> protocols run over it. Assume the client LSP is IP router, it runs
>>> OSPF or IS-IS. To support the routing protocol properly running, IP
>>> interface is configured over a packet-PW. Hello protocol is normally
>>> activated over IP interface. However, if we want to use packet-PW
>>> state as IP interface state, we need to turn off hello protocol. Is
>>> that right? That is my second point in previous e-mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Lucy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Andrew G. Malis
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:42 AM
>>> *To:* jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
>>> *Cc:* pwe3@ietf.org; stbryant@cisco.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jiang,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on
>>> mapping between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting
>>> (without being implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the
>>> all of the details covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
>>> <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy,
>>>
>>> Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine
>>> for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Albert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com <mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com>>*
>>> sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>
>>> 2009-04-01 01:13
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>>,
>>> pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>, "'Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)'"
>>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com <mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>>
>>>
>>> cc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> topic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [PWE3] comments on packet pw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Stewart and Andy,
>>>
>>> I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!
>>> I also have some comments on the draft:
>>>
>>> 1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state how
>>> to use flow label and S/N for packet PW.
>>> 2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual interfaces.
>>> However, *each protocol interface may have its own link status
>>> protocol* running, the draft should state the procedures to determine
>>> interface status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its
>>> link protocol when using Packet PW
>>> 3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs,
>>> the draft should state link operational procedures (for client
>>> networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE
>>> metrics, etc.
>>> 4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency from
>>> server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them and
>>> considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client networks.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Lucy_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> pwe3 mailing list
>>> pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com <mailto:amalis@gmail.com>>*
>>>
>>> 2009-04-04 23:39
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org
>>> <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jiang,
>>>
>>> Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
>>> running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
>>> this as simple as possible.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> 2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>>:
>>>       
>>>> Sir,
>>>>
>>>> Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level
>>>>         
> Data
>   
>>>> Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
>>>> be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have
>>>>         
> more
>   
>>>> encapsulation overhead)
>>>>
>>>> Thank you!
>>>>         
>>>
>>>       
>
>
>   


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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:20:51 +0100
From: Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
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Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Himanshu

You are not missing anything.

The protocol carried over the PW must remain unchanged.

A failure of the PW looks like "loss of light" which is always reflected
up to routing.

The proposal is therefore to run the routing layer exactly as we normally do
and to create a signal that is equivalent to LoL that is passed up to
the virtual interface.

Stewart


Shah, Himanshu wrote:
>
> Not sure where this discussion is going but...
>
> if a physical point-to-point connection is being
> mimicked by a 'virtual wire' (i.e. pw) with its
> corresponding mechanisms of up/down (i.e. pw status), etc,
> why should layer above (or for that matter layer below)
> start making exceptions??
>
> what am I missing here???
>
> /himanshu
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Lucy Yong
> Sent: Tue 4/14/2009 6:22 PM
> To: stbryant@cisco.com
> Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
>
> Hi Stewart,
>
> If link hello protocol can't be turned off, then the following 
> statement in
> the section 4 does not apply. LSR has to use link state routing 
> protocol to
> decide if the interface is up or down. I suggest revising the section 
> 4 and
> adding your description (below) in.
>
> 4.  Status Indication
>
>    A pseudowire status indicating a fault can be considered equivalent
>    to interface down and SHOULD be passed across the virtual interface
>    to the local LSR.  This improves scaling in PE with large numbers of
>    c-resident LSRs and with LSRs that have large numbers of interfaces
>    mapped to pseudowires.
>
> We should also mention in the draft that since client LSR runs its own 
> link
> state protocols to its peers, there is no need to use PW status message to
> carry LSR local link state fault to Packet-PW remote.
>
> Regards,
> Lucy
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:51 AM
> > To: Lucy Yong
> > Cc: 'Andrew G. Malis'; jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn; pwe3@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> >
> > Lucy
> >
> > Turning off bits of the routing protocol is actually quite hard, risks
> > breaking the protocol and requires us to track and reflect those changes
> > in the surrogate protocol. We would therefore want to run the link state
> > routing protocol unmodified including the hellos.
> >
> > Stewart
> >
> >
> > Lucy Yong wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Andy and XiaoWei,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Since the purpose of packet-PW is to create a virtual physical
> > > interface for two connected client LSRs and allow multiple client
> > > protocols run over it. Assume the client LSP is IP router, it runs
> > > OSPF or IS-IS. To support the routing protocol properly running, IP
> > > interface is configured over a packet-PW. Hello protocol is normally
> > > activated over IP interface. However, if we want to use packet-PW
> > > state as IP interface state, we need to turn off hello protocol. Is
> > > that right? That is my second point in previous e-mail.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Lucy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> > > Behalf Of *Andrew G. Malis
> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:42 AM
> > > *To:* jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> > > *Cc:* pwe3@ietf.org; stbryant@cisco.com
> > > *Subject:* Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jiang,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on
> > > mapping between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting
> > > (without being implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the
> > > all of the details covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> > > <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Andy,
> > >
> > > Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine
> > > for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Albert
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com <mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com>>*
> > > sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org>
> > >
> > > 2009-04-01 01:13
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>>,
> > > pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>, "'Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)'"
> > > <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com <mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>>
> > >
> > > cc
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [PWE3] comments on packet pw
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Stewart and Andy,
> > >
> > > I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!
> > > I also have some comments on the draft:
> > >
> > > 1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state how
> > > to use flow label and S/N for packet PW.
> > > 2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual interfaces.
> > > However, *each protocol interface may have its own link status
> > > protocol* running, the draft should state the procedures to determine
> > > interface status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its
> > > link protocol when using Packet PW
> > > 3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs,
> > > the draft should state link operational procedures (for client
> > > networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE
> > > metrics, etc.
> > > 4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency from
> > > server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them and
> > > considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client 
> networks.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Lucy_______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > pwe3 mailing list
> > > pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com <mailto:amalis@gmail.com>>*
> > >
> > > 2009-04-04 23:39
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org
> > > <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jiang,
> > >
> > > Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
> > > running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
> > > this as simple as possible.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > 2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn 
> <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>>:
> > > >
> > > > Sir,
> > > >
> > > > Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level
> Data
> > > > Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> > > > be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have
> more
> > > > encapsulation overhead)
> > > >
> > > > Thank you!
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> pwe3 mailing list
> pwe3@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
>   


From lucyyong@huawei.com  Wed Apr 15 07:42:32 2009
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:43:40 -0500
From: Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com>
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Cc: 'pwe3' <pwe3@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
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Hi Stewart,

Thank you for the explanation. It is good to state this in the draft. In
addition, clarify that org PW is responsible to pass local ACH fault to PW
remote, but packet-PW is not necessary to carry client link fault to
packet-PW remote because client has its own link state protocol.

Regards,
Lucy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:54 AM
> To: Lucy Yong
> Cc: pwe3
> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> 
> Lucy
> 
> The statement in (4) is still correct, because you can turn the hello
> rate down and
> use the network indication fault indication to indicate the absence of
> end to end
> connectivity.
> 
> You can't turn hello's off because they carry all sorts of adjacency
> information, but
> you can still configure the system so that connectivity loss is
> primarily reported
> through loss of light or its functional equivalent (PW down) and this is
> what we
> propose in the text.
> 
> It might be useful of I added some text to the draft stating that the
> scaling
> improvement occurs because the operator can reduce the hello packet and
> BFD rate.
> 
> Stewart
> 
> Lucy Yong wrote:
> > Hi Stewart,
> >
> > If link hello protocol can't be turned off, then the following statement
in
> > the section 4 does not apply. LSR has to use link state routing protocol
to
> > decide if the interface is up or down. I suggest revising the section 4
and
> > adding your description (below) in.
> >
> > 4.  Status Indication
> >
> >    A pseudowire status indicating a fault can be considered equivalent
> >    to interface down and SHOULD be passed across the virtual interface
> >    to the local LSR.  This improves scaling in PE with large numbers of
> >    c-resident LSRs and with LSRs that have large numbers of interfaces
> >    mapped to pseudowires.
> >
> > We should also mention in the draft that since client LSR runs its own
link
> > state protocols to its peers, there is no need to use PW status message
to
> > carry LSR local link state fault to Packet-PW remote.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Lucy
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stbryant@cisco.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:51 AM
> >> To: Lucy Yong
> >> Cc: 'Andrew G. Malis'; jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn; pwe3@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> >>
> >> Lucy
> >>
> >> Turning off bits of the routing protocol is actually quite hard, risks
> >> breaking the protocol and requires us to track and reflect those
changes
> >> in the surrogate protocol. We would therefore want to run the link
state
> >> routing protocol unmodified including the hellos.
> >>
> >> Stewart
> >>
> >>
> >> Lucy Yong wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Andy and XiaoWei,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Since the purpose of packet-PW is to create a virtual physical
> >>> interface for two connected client LSRs and allow multiple client
> >>> protocols run over it. Assume the client LSP is IP router, it runs
> >>> OSPF or IS-IS. To support the routing protocol properly running, IP
> >>> interface is configured over a packet-PW. Hello protocol is normally
> >>> activated over IP interface. However, if we want to use packet-PW
> >>> state as IP interface state, we need to turn off hello protocol. Is
> >>> that right? That is my second point in previous e-mail.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Lucy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> *From:* pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> >>> Behalf Of *Andrew G. Malis
> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:42 AM
> >>> *To:* jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> >>> *Cc:* pwe3@ietf.org; stbryant@cisco.com
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jiang,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I don't think so, but we should look more closely at the details on
> >>> mapping between the virtual interface state and PW status reporting
> >>> (without being implementation-dependent) to make sure we've got the
> >>> all of the details covered. Lucy's point 3 is a good one as well.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:46 AM, <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
> >>> <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Andy,
> >>>
> >>> Is there any need for Packet-PW to maintain any kind of state machine
> >>> for virtual interface status like Lucy Yong mentioned?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Albert
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Lucy Yong <lucyyong@huawei.com <mailto:lucyyong@huawei.com>>*
> >>> sender:  pwe3-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org>
> >>>
> >>> 2009-04-01 01:13
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> to
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 'Stewart Bryant' <stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>>,
> >>> pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>, "'Malis, Andrew G. (Andy)'"
> >>> <andrew.g.malis@verizon.com <mailto:andrew.g.malis@verizon.com>>
> >>>
> >>> cc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> topic
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [PWE3] comments on packet pw
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Stewart and Andy,
> >>>
> >>> I support this draft to become WG draft. Congratulation!!
> >>> I also have some comments on the draft:
> >>>
> >>> 1)     Since Packet PW requires using CW, it is necessary to state how
> >>> to use flow label and S/N for packet PW.
> >>> 2)     It is good to have the PW status mapped to virtual interfaces.
> >>> However, *each protocol interface may have its own link status
> >>> protocol* running, the draft should state the procedures to determine
> >>> interface status, or require each protocol interface to turn off its
> >>> link protocol when using Packet PW
> >>> 3)     Since Packet PW acts as a data link between two clients LSRs,
> >>> the draft should state link operational procedures (for client
> >>> networks) over a packet PW such as how to determine admin cost, TE
> >>> metrics, etc.
> >>> 4)     I assume that a Packet PW can obtain transport resiliency from
> >>> server MPLS network, it would be nice for the draft to state them and
> >>> considers that the consequence may change admin cost in client
networks.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Lucy_______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> pwe3 mailing list
> >>> pwe3@ietf.org <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pwe3
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *"Andrew G. Malis" <amalis@gmail.com <mailto:amalis@gmail.com>>*
> >>>
> >>> 2009-04-04 23:39
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn <mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> stbryant@cisco.com <mailto:stbryant@cisco.com>, pwe3@ietf.org
> >>> <mailto:pwe3@ietf.org>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Re: [PWE3] draft-bryant-pwe3-packet-pw-00.txt to WG draft?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jiang,
> >>>
> >>> Yes it could, but in addition to higher overhead it would also require
> >>> running the PPP state machine and using PPP options. We wanted to keep
> >>> this as simple as possible.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>> 2009/4/3  <jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn
<mailto:jiang.xiaowei@zte.com.cn>>:
> >>>
> >>>> Sir,
> >>>>
> >>>> Could rfc4618 Encapsulation Methods for Transport of PPP/High-Level
> >>>>
> > Data
> >
> >>>> Link Control (HDLC) over MPLS Networks
> >>>> be used as a solution for the scenario in this draft? (although have
> >>>>
> > more
> >
> >>>> encapsulation overhead)
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you!
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Pseudowire Emulation Edge to Edge Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Pseudo Wire (PW) OAM Message Mapping
	Author(s)       : L. Martini, M. Morrow
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-10.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2009-04-15

This document specifies the mapping and notification of defect states 
between a Pseudo Wire and the Attachment Circuits (AC) of the end-to-
end emulated service. This document covers the case whereby the ACs 
and the PWs are of the same type in accordance to the PWE3 
architecture [RFC3985] such that a homogenous PW service can be 
constructed. 

 

Conventions used in this document 

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This may be of interest to those of us thinking about congestion issues 
in PWE3

Stewart

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	Title		: Open Research Issues in Internet Congestion Control
	Author(s)	: M. Welzl, M. Scharf, B. Briscoe, D. Papadimitriou
	Filename	: draft-irtf-iccrg-welzl-congestion-control-open-research-03.txt
	Pages		: 42
	Date		: 2009-4-17
	
This document describes some of the open problems in Internet 
   congestion control that are known today. This includes several new 
   challenges that are becoming important as the network grows, as well 
   as some issues that have been known for many years. These challenges 
   are generally considered to be open research topics that may require 
   more study or application of innovative techniques before Internet-
   scale solutions can be confidently engineered and deployed.

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From igoyret@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Apr 22 11:18:10 2009
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From: Ignacio Goyret <igoyret@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: [PWE3] pwe3-oam-msg-map reference correction
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Hi,
Your draft-ietf-pwe3-oam-msg-map-10.txt contains an informative
reference to:

  [L2TP-Status] McGill, N. Pignataro, C., "L2TPv3 Extended Circuit
       Status Values", <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nmcgill-l2tpext-circuit-status-extensions-01>draft-nmcgill-l2tpext-circuit-status-extensions-
       <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nmcgill-l2tpext-circuit-status-extensions-01>01 (work in progress), June 2008.

The correct name for this draft is draft-ietf-l2tpext-circuit-status-extensions.

Note also that this draft just went through WGLC and
it is getting ready to be sent to the IESG.

Cheers,
-Ignacio Goyret
l2tpext WG chair 


From dward@cisco.com  Thu Apr 23 14:06:06 2009
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Subject: [PWE3] WG LC softwire-lb
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All -
	Following the last IETF meeting all comments have been addressed in:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-lb-02


The authors have requested a WG LC and I have added L3VPN and PWE3  
that may be interested and have comments on the technology. Please  
send back all comments by May 7, 2009.

Thanks

DWard, Alain
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<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">All -<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">	</span>Following the last IETF meeting all comments have been addressed in:<br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-lb-02">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-lb-02</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The authors have requested a WG LC and I have added L3VPN and PWE3 that may be interested and have comments on the technology. Please send back all comments by May 7, 2009.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div><br></div><div>DWard, Alain</div></body></html>
--Apple-Mail-6-220634604--

From Martin.Vigoureux@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Apr 24 04:12:12 2009
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Subject: [PWE3] IETF 74 - MPLS WG minutes
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all,

the minutes of the mpls wg sessions are available on-line:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/mpls/minutes

Please have a look at them and let me know if you would like additional
details to be reflected.

Three slide sets are still missing, I'll contact the presenters
and upload them as soon as I receive them.

regards,
martin

From robert@raszuk.net  Fri Apr 24 01:32:42 2009
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Cc: Carlos Pignataro <cpignata@cisco.com>, l3vpn@ietf.org, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, Ralph Droms <rdroms@cisco.com>, Alain Durand <Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com>, softwires@ietf.org, pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [PWE3] WG LC softwire-lb
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Hi David,

Perhaps I may have missed the discussion on this in the other WGs but I 
have two comments/questions ...

* Why the decision on enhancing the load balancing capability of IP 
encapsulated packet has to be signaled as opposed to be a local matter 
of the ingress router performing encapsulation ?

* Reg use of GRE key for the purpose of load balancing I must say that 
GRE key has already been proposed in number of solutions today. Therefor 
overloading more on it may be impractical. Did authors analyzed use of 
Sequence Numbers in GRE header instead for the purpose of increasing 
effectiveness of load-balancing by the transit nodes ?

Cheers,
R.


> All -
> Following the last IETF meeting all comments have been addressed in:
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-lb-02
> 
> The authors have requested a WG LC and I have added L3VPN and PWE3 that 
> may be interested and have comments on the technology. Please send back 
> all comments by May 7, 2009.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> DWard, Alain


From prvs=35820fe87=euddasi@redback.com  Fri Apr 24 09:12:04 2009
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From: David Sinicrope <euddasi@redback.com>
To: "pwe3@ietf.org" <pwe3@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:13:19 -0700
Thread-Topic: Call for consensus on draft-ietf-pwe3-ms-pw-arch-06.txt
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Subject: [PWE3] Call for consensus on draft-ietf-pwe3-ms-pw-arch-06.txt
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At the San Francisco meeting the PWE3 Chairs requested that I make the
consensus call on draft-ietf-pwe3-ms-pw-arch-06 because they are both
co-editors. I=B9ve reviewed the PWE3 last call comments and the updated
version of the draft.  There is WG consensus to proceed with the publicatio=
n
process.

Thanks,
Dave


From xueli@huawei.com  Sat Apr 25 00:40:22 2009
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:41:36 +0800
From: Sherry Xue <xueli@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Comments on draft-jounay-pwe3-leaf-initiated-p2mp-pw-01
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Hi, Fred,
I totally agree with your opinion that the leaf-initiated mode and
source-initiated mode are not restricted in the application of SS-PW and
MS-PW.
IMO, leaf initiated mode is more conveniently for MS-PW, and in the source
initiated mode, more work should be considered for MS-PW, such as AD and PW
routing. I agree the standardization work course with admiration. 

For P2MP SS-PW setup in leaf-initiated mode, it may be divided into two
instances:
1)over P2P PSN :
this case may be according to MP2P signaling, similarly as
star-topology(logically), in which P2MP SS-PW is composed of m(leaf no.)*P2P
SS-PW, and all the P2P SS-PWs should be setup individually without
consideration of the merge-node(physically). That is to say in the merge
node, there will be different labels allocated upstream for different
downstream T-PEs.
2) over P2MP PSN
The merge-node should record the Label(called label L) allocated by the
downstream TAII(called  X) with SAII( S ), and if another signaling message
from other TAII(i.e.,Y) is received with same SAII, the merge-node should
allocated label L for TAII Y(upstream label assignment), and then allocate
upstream label to next upstream hop. 
IMO, if the P2MP PW is initiated by the leafs, the PSN tunnel should be
restrict to P2P, because it sounds illogical that the leaf node is used to
manage a P2MP LSP or PW? What about your opinion?

For P2MP MS-PW setup in source-initiated mode, the explicit routing should
be provided in the source PE. So the LDP should be extended for MS-PW setup
according explicit routing. Right? Whether the explicit routing is the only
method for the PW routing? 

Regarding the P2P PW setup procedure, there are two protocols, LDP and BGP.
Could we use BGP for P2MP PW setup?


Best wishes and regards
Sherry

> Hi Xinquan
> 
> "In my opinion, your original intention is to propose leaf-initiated mode
as
> a solution for inter-domain scenario, and source-initiated mode for
> intra-domain scenario. Am I right?"
> 
> not really, actually both procedures (leaf or source initiated)  are not
> limited in their operating principles and as such could be used  to cover
SS-PW
> and MS-PW configuration.
> For the standardization work we propose to focus first on P2MP SS-PW  as
it
> is the simplest configuration, to agree on the required new  building
blocks :
> FEC element, signaling procedures etc...
> The part related to P2MP SS-PW setup in the leaf-initiated draft and the
part
> related to P2MP MS-PW setup in the source-initiated draft should be added
asap
> or considered in a separate document.
> 
> Regarding their network applicability the choice between both approaches
will
> have to be made on a case by case basis, driven by architectural and
operational
> constraints. For the moment we felt the need to investigate both solutions
in
> parallel.
> 
> Do you have any comment on the applicability of the two approaches ?  Or
any
> specific requirement that would need to be included in the requirements
draft
> on P2MP PW ?
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Fred
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> De : l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
> zhang.xinquan@zte.com.cn
> Envoy? : mardi 21 avril 2009 03:23
> ? : JOUNAY Frederic RD-RESA-LAN
> Cc : l2vpn@ietf.org; l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org; pwe3@ietf.org
> Objet : ??: RE: Comments on draft-jounay-pwe3-leaf-initiated-p2mp-pw-01
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Frederic,
> 
> Thanks for your clarificaton.
> 
> You have two drafts about P2MP PW signaling, one is leaf-initiated mode
and
> the other is source-initiated mode. In my opinion, your original intention
is
> to propose leaf-initiated mode as a solution for inter-domain scenario,
and
> source-initiated mode for intra-domain scenario. Am I right? Or your have
other
> considerations?
> 
> Best regards!
> 
> Xinquan Zhang
> 
> 2009/4/21
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <frederic.jounay@orange-ftgroup.com>
> ???:  l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org
> 
> 2009-04-20 20:55
> 
> ???
> <zhang.xinquan@zte.com.cn>
> ??
> l2vpn@ietf.org, l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org, pwe3@ietf.org
> ??
> RE: Comments on draft-jounay-pwe3-leaf-initiated-p2mp-pw-01
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Xinquan,
> 
> Please see my answer inline [FJ]
> 
> Best Regards,
> Fred
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> De : zhang.xinquan@zte.com.cn [mailto:zhang.xinquan@zte.com.cn]
> Envoy? : mercredi 15 avril 2009 07:50
> ? : JOUNAY Frederic RD-RESA-LAN
> Cc : l2vpn@ietf.org; l2vpn-bounces@ietf.org
> Objet : Comments on draft-jounay-pwe3-leaf-initiated-p2mp-pw-01
> 
> 
> Hi, Frederic,
> 
> I have read draft-jounay-pwe3-leaf-initiated-p2mp-pw-01 and have some
> comments. please see below:
> 
> 1?section 5.4. Configuration
> 
>   After configuring on each T-PE the attached AIIs, it is assumed that
>   all the PEs (Ingress/Egress T-PEs and all S-PEs) maintain an AII PW
>   routing table which gives for each AII as entry the "next hop" to
>   reach that AII. This AII routing table can be filled manually or
>   updated dynamically by means of some extended routing protocol like
>   proposed in [DYN MS-PW]. The construction of the table is out of
>   scope of the present document.
> 
>   Each PE relies on its AII PW routing table to select the next hop PE
>   (S-PE or T-PE) to reach a given AII.
> 
> >1  Does this AII routing table include both TAII and SAII?
> [FJ] Yes, the AII routing table dynamically populated (BGP, OSPF, IS-IS or
LDP)
> should maintain both. The Egress T-PE joins the PW tree by initiating a
Label
> Map whose the FEC contains the SAII, the PW tree source. Hence upon
receipt
> of the message the S-PE does a lookup to select the NH to reach this SAII.
> >2  In S-PE, this AII routing table includes all the AII, or just part of
the
> AII( e.g. which are in its dowstream)?
> [FJ] the AII routing table should be used also for VPWS or VPLS, so
bidirectional
> PW. Therefore the AII routing table must reflect all the AII configured on
T-PEs.
> Of course agregate AII format (i.e. w/o ACID info) as defined in [DYN
MS-PW]
> must be used to optimize the AII routing table
> 
> 2?Section 5.7. Using TAII Leaf Sub-TLV
> 
>   Section TBD
> 
>   The TAII Leaf sub-TLV MAY be optionally used when a leaf joins the PW
>   tree to announce to the source that it is part from the PW tree. If
>   this option is chosen, the Egress T-PE adds to the FEC Element this
>   TAII sub-TLV in the Label Map message. As soon as in the source
>   direction a Label Map is not required since for instance a S-PE
>   already maintains a state for this MS-PW tree, the information
>   related to the Leaf TAIIs is retrieved from the TAII Leaf sub-TLV and
>   is propagated by means of a LDP Notification message up to the
>   corresponding Ingress T-PE.
> > I am not sure about the propagation of TAII Leaf sub-TLV. Is it sent to
ingress
> T-PE directly, or to the upstream S-PE(if there exists such S-PE in the
upstream
> direction)?
> [FJ] The Notification message can not be directly sent to the Ingress T-PE
if
> there is not direct T-LDP session to reach the Ingress T-PE, i.e. S-PE in
between.
> That's the reason why the message should be propagated hop by hop (i.e.
S-PE
> by S-PE) up to the Ingress T-PE.
>  I agree with you that's worth clarifying this section.
> 
> Best Regards!
> 
> Xinquan Zhang
> 
> 2009/4/15
> 
> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> End of pwe3 Digest, Vol 60, Issue 26
> ************************************


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With the split of the FC PW into two drafts, the changes
below apply to Section 3 of draft-ietf-pwe3-fc-flow-00.txt .
They still need to be made.

Thanks,
--David

-----Original Message-----
From: Black, David=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:35 PM
To: pwe3@ietf.org
Cc: Black, David; 'Moran Roth'
Subject: FW: [PWE3] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pwe3-fc-encap-08.txt

The draft was posted this time.  I've diff'ed this draft against the
-07 version.  The results look good; I have a few minor edits to the
new timing material in Section 7:

OLD:
   while the device is unable to forward these Primitive Sequence due to

   backpressure indication, it shall flush its respective buffer (PSN-
   facing if the Primitive Sequences were received from the CE, CE-
   facing if they were received from the remote PE), and shall forward=20
   the Primitive Sequences.=20
   =20
NEW: (change "shall" to "MUST")=20
   while the device is unable to forward these Primitive Sequence due to

   backpressure indication, it MUST flush its respective buffer (PSN-
   facing if the Primitive Sequences were received from the CE, CE-
   facing if they were received from the remote PE), and MUST forward=20
   the Primitive Sequences.=20

OLD:
   Another case is when there is no specific backpressure indication,=20
   rather Primitive Sequences are being delayed due to retransmission of

   dropped frames. In this case also, the PE shall flush its PSN-facing=20
   buffer and shall forward the Primitive Sequences.

NEW: (clarify paragraph, add retransmission sentence, add explanation
	of why R_T_TOV is important)
   Another case is when there is no specific backpressure indication,=20
   but the Primitive Sequences cannot be immediately forwarded
   due to frames awaiting retransmission that must be sent first.
   In this case, the PE MUST flush its PSN-facing buffer and MUST
   forward the Primitive Sequences.  Long sequences of the same
   Primitive Sequence MUST be suppressed as described in [FC-BB].

   If the buffer clearing actions described in the previous paragraphs
   fail to ensure that the round trip latency for Primitive Sequences
   is less than R_T_TOV, the Fibre Channel link that is carried by the
   pseudowire may fail or may go offline and remain in that state
   because an R_T_TOV timeout in used in Fibre Channel's Link
   Initialization,  Link Failure and Link Reset protocols (see
   Section 7 of [FC-FS]).  Therefore, the FC PW SHOULD NOT be used
   when the latency across the FC PW may exceed 0.5 * R_T_TOV.

OLD:
   To guarantee correct operation of this mechanism FC PW SHOULD NOT be=20
   used in environments where the RTT may have high variability, i.e.,=20
   environments where the estimated RTT may not be off by more than 5%=20
   of MIN(E_D_TOV,R_A_TOV).
NEW:
   To guarantee correct operation of this mechanism FC PW SHOULD NOT be=20
   used in environments where the RTT may have high variability, i.e.,=20
   environments where the estimated RTT may be off by more than 5%=20
   of MIN(E_D_TOV,R_A_TOV).                ^  =20
                                           |
Remove "not" ------------------------------/

I think this is ready to go with these changes - if we treat the last
one as a thinko, they're all editorial and could be dealt with at IETF
Last Call.

Thanks,
--David

-----Original Message-----
From: pwe3-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pwe3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 3:45 PM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: pwe3@ietf.org
Subject: [PWE3] I-D Action:draft-ietf-pwe3-fc-encap-08.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Pseudowire Emulation Edge to Edge
Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Encapsulation Methods for Transport of Fibre
Channel frames Over MPLS Networks
	Author(s)       : M. Roth, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-pwe3-fc-encap-08.txt
	Pages           : 40
	Date            : 2008-08-19

A Fibre Channel pseudowire (PW) is used to carry Fibre Channel frames=20
over an MPLS network. This enables service providers to offer=20
"emulated" Fibre Channel services over existing MPLS networks. This=20
document specifies the encapsulation of Fibre Channel PDUs within a=20
pseudowire. It also specifies the procedures for using a PW to=20
provide a Fibre Channel service.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pwe3-fc-encap-08.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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Subject: Re: [PWE3] [Softwires] WG LC softwire-lb
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Hi Robert,

Thank you for your comments, please see inline.

On 4/24/2009 4:31 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> Perhaps I may have missed the discussion on this in the other WGs but I 
> have two comments/questions ...
> 
> * Why the decision on enhancing the load balancing capability of IP 
> encapsulated packet has to be signaled as opposed to be a local matter 
> of the ingress router performing encapsulation ?

This is because the load-balancing field is signaled (see RFC5512), so
using for lb it needs signaling of a block to avoid collisions. Note
also the context from the title, lb for Mesh Softwires. For the L2TPv3
case, and from <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5512#section-4.1>, the
only encapsulating header field that is always there is the Session ID
(Cookie is optional), which is signaled; the case for GRE is equivalent,
but also please see below. If it's only a local matter, the
encapsulating header's fields could not be used and you would be limited
to playing with e.g., the source IP address.

> 
> * Reg use of GRE key for the purpose of load balancing I must say that 
> GRE key has already been proposed in number of solutions today. Therefor 
> overloading more on it may be impractical. Did authors analyzed use of 
> Sequence Numbers in GRE header instead for the purpose of increasing 
> effectiveness of load-balancing by the transit nodes ?

Yes, it was considered, but we need a field that can be used for flow
identification. From RFC2890, the seq # MUST be used by the receiver to
establish packet transmission order, so it's incompatible with a
per-flow use. The GRE Key's semantics from RFC2890 match this use,
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2890#section-2.1>:

   The Key field contains a four octet number which was inserted by the
   encapsulator. The actual method by which this Key is obtained is
   beyond the scope of the document. The Key field is intended to be
   used for identifying an individual traffic flow within a tunnel.

Thanks,

-- Carlos.



> 
> Cheers,
> R.
> 
> 
>> All -
>> Following the last IETF meeting all comments have been addressed in:
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-lb-02
>>
>> The authors have requested a WG LC and I have added L3VPN and PWE3 that 
>> may be interested and have comments on the technology. Please send back 
>> all comments by May 7, 2009.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> DWard, Alain
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Softwires mailing list
> Softwires@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/softwires
> 

From lmartini@cisco.com  Thu Apr 30 15:58:00 2009
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Subject: Re: [PWE3] Should draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01 be a WG doc?
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Huub,

You are correct, we have not included the SONET APS support yet.
This is something that we plan to include shortly, depending on how much 
interest the WG has in this topic.

Thanks.
Luca

Huub van Helvoort wrote:
> To the authors:
>
> What do you mean by "SONET APS" and where is it located
> in figure 1?
>
> I could not find any reference in the refence sections either.
>
> Regards, Huub.
>
> =====================
>> The authors of draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-martini-pwe3-iccp-01.txt
>>
>> have requested that this become a PWE3 WG document.
>>
>> Please can you send comments to the list by 20th April
>> so that the chairs can judge consensus.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Stewart
>
>

